From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Mar  1 00:34:46 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 00:34:46 -0000
Subject: Where is Pettigrew?
In-Reply-To: <c1tjp6+g208@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c1u0f6+60js@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91832

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Diana_Sirius_fan" 
<siriuslove71 at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Heather Maffioli" > 
Heather:  
> I think that there is a huge clue on the bonus jacket art for the 
> special boxed American edition.  There is clearly a rat hiding in 
the 
> grass out side GP.  Many have suspected that animal are able to 
> perceive magically hidden places and people.  Is it possible that 
PP 
> is in fact spying on the Order through out the book?




I can't recall where I read it. But my understanding is that the 
American illustrator did not have any "inside" information and had 
not been allowed to read the book at all when she did  the various 
illustrations.  So the rat would have to be taken with a grain of 
salt.

Potioncat




From pennylin at swbell.net  Mon Mar  1 02:46:43 2004
From: pennylin at swbell.net (pennylin)
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 20:46:43 -0600
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 13 (Detention with Dolores)
Message-ID: <03be01c3ff37$6f097200$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01>

No: HPFGUIDX 91834

Hi everyone ---

Surfacing only briefly from lurkdom probably ...... but here to give the
Chapter 13 summary and provide some questions for discussion.  :--)

SUMMARY

This chapter leads off at dinnertime in the Great Hall, right after Harry
has his first shouting match with Professor Umbridge.  Most of the students
are loudly expressing doubts about Harry's story of Voldemort's return, and
the Trio leave their dinner unfinished.  Hermione explains to Harry that
many of the students may not have believed Harry or Dumbledore at the end of
last term and then went home to read Daily Prophet articles questioning the
sanity of both Harry and Dumbledore.

Back in the common room, Hermione laments that Dumbledore has hired such a
horrible DADA teacher during their OWL year.  Hermione confronts Fred and
George about testing their joke shop wares on first-year students.  She is
very angry that fellow-prefect Ron fails to join her in rebuking the twins.
She stops them only by threatening to write to their mother.  Before
retiring for the night, Hermione sets out 2 hats for the house elves that
she made over the summer, announcing that now she's back in school again and
can use magic to knit, she plans to make many more.  She and Ron have an
argument about Hermione's attempt to hide the hats so that the elves will
mistakenly pick them up.  Ron brings the hats into clear view after Hermione
leaves.  Harry passes Seamus on the way up to his room, and thinks that
Seamus might have been about to say something.

The next morning, Ron refers to Hermione's hats as "woolly bladders" and
argues that the elves might not want freedom just because the hats are gone.
The Gryffindors & Slytherins study bowtruckles in Care of Magical Creatures
(still without Hagrid).  Harry ended up getting injured by a bowtruckle that
he was holding for Hermione, as he listened to Draco insulting Hagrid.  As
they leave the class (with Harry's hand bandaged in Hermione's
handkerchief), Luna Lovegood walks up to Harry and loudly declares that she
believes his story about Voldemort.  Ernie Macmillan shortly afterwards
makes his own proclamation of support.  Seamus looked "both confused and
defiant."  In the Great Hall, Angelina confronts Harry about landing up in
detention when there will be tryouts for the new Gryffindor Keeper later
that week.

Harry goes to Umbridge's office at 5:00 p.m.  He asks if he can do the
Friday detention another night, without success.  He is shocked when he
writes the first line and discovers that Umbridge's "special quill" is
simultaneously writing the words on the parchment with his blood and etching
them into the back of his hand.  Harry is determined not to show any
weakness and is there for hours, writing lines into his own hand.  Harry
doesn't even tell Ron and Hermione about what is really happening.  After
his 3rd night of detentions though, Ron sees Harry's hand and demands an
explanation.  Ron confessed to Harry that he was trying out for the Keeper
position, begging Harry "not to laugh."  Ron and Hermione, on separate
occasions, both urge Harry to go to Dumbledore about Umbridge's unusual
punishments.

Friday's detention with Umbridge is somewhat more bearable because he can
see part of the Quidditch tryouts from where he's sitting, until darkness
sets in.  When Umbridge touches his hand this time to see how deep the cut
has etched into Harry's hand, pain sears across Harry's scar.  She
mistakenly thinks he has finally shown pain in his hand, when Harry jerks
his hand away and leaps to his feet.  Pleased, she lets him go.  When he
reaches the common room, the celebration for Ron as Keeper is in full swing.
Angelina confronts Harry with the news that Ron isn't "great" and needs all
the help he can get.  Harry can hardly stand to not be telling someone about
his experience with his scar, and he seeks Hermione out at the earliest
chance (she woke up at the sound of him setting his bag down).    Hermione
thinks that Voldemort can't be controlling Umbridge as he did with Quirrell
since he's now "properly alive" again; she advises Harry that his scar pain
might have been coincidental with Umbridge touching him.  Harry is
unconvinced and is annoyed when Hermione tells him not to write to Sirius.
Harry says he is going to bed and asks her to tell Ron, but Hermione looks
"relieved" and says she is going to bed too.  As they leave the common room,
Hermione invites Harry to help her make elf hats the next day, but Harry is
unable to muster any enthusiasm and turns down the offer, leaving Hermione
looking disappointed.

QUESTIONS

1.  This is one of the first signs of how Ron will handle his
responsibilities as prefect.  Do you think it was merely his family
relationship with the Twins that kept him from being a rules-enforcer with
Hermione or would he have shirked his responsibilities if it had been Seamus
and Dean doing something questionable or something that clearly broke a
school rule?  Do you think Harry might have taken his prefect duties any
more seriously than Ron did?

2.  What do you think about Hermione's attempt to trick the house elves into
picking up clothing that will set them free?  Do you agree with Ron that
"they should at least see what they're picking up?"

3.  This is one of several instances where Seamus seems to be trying to talk
to Harry.  As in other cases, Harry often doesn't want to take the trouble
and/or risk the confrontation that might occur if he encouraged an
antagonist to discuss things with him.  You may recall that Rowling used
similar language to signal that Ron might have been amenable to making it up
with Harry sooner, but Harry's stubborn pride and unwillingness to engage in
anything emotionally "messy" always gets in the way.  Do you think it is
stubborn pride, emotional distance or perhaps inner protectiveness that
causes Harry to react this way?

4.  On first read, did you guess what Ron was up to (practicing for the
Keeper tryouts)?

5.  Is it possible that Harry was really there for 7 *hours* writing lines
that cut into his own hand, or is this another case of Rowling not being
very good with time details?

6.  Was Harry wrong to fail to alert even one Hogwarts professor about what
was going on with Umbridge's detentions?  He probably didn't know the extent
of her power at that exact point in time, so it was more likely Harry's
distrust of adults and authority figures (and dislike of "showing weakness")
that prompted his decision to stoically bear his ordeal and stay silent.
Even Ron thinks Harry's desire to avoid having Umbridge know that she "got
to him" is ridiculous, as he urges him to report the incidents to McGonagall
or Dumbledore.

7.  Does Ron have reason to think Harry would laugh at the idea of him
trying out for Keeper (i.e., is he a bad Quidditch player in general), or is
this just Ron's lack of confidence manifesting itself rather plainly?  Do
you think the Twins play an especially strong role in Ron's self-esteem
issues?  He seems to be particularly sensitive to their jibes and avoids
giving them reason to bother him.

8.  Were you convinced by Hermione's explanation that maybe it was
coincidence that Harry's scar hurt when Umbridge touched him?  Is Hermione
right so often in OoP that it might be a red herring in later books?

9.  Shipping question (of course!): what do you make of the fact that
Hermione seems anxious to get off to bed on a night when Ron will clearly
wanting to be celebrating and might even have confidence enough to make a
romantic gesture towards her?  If she knows he likes her and she likes him
back, why would she not take the chance to be alone with him when he's in
the best spirits ever before (and instead asks Harry to join her in knitting
the next day, looking "disappointed" at his answer)?  <g>

Penny

NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/67817 and

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/85829 as well as

"OotP Chapter Discussions" at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database





From annemehr at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  1 04:34:17 2004
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 04:34:17 -0000
Subject: Cedric and Pettigrew (was Re: Faking Sirius' Death?)
In-Reply-To: <001e01c3fefe$55db75a0$5c4e6751@f3b7j4>
Message-ID: <c1ueg9+820u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91835


Annemehr wondered:
> > I don't know how the WW at large found out, but since OoP I wonder if
> > DD hadn't had one of those "reliable methods of communicating" with
> > the Potters, or some sort of trouble detector.  In a world with
> > sneakoscopes and foe glasses, and magic two-way mirrors, I would think
> > he would have.

Ffred's reply:
> Only problem with the theory of the "surveillance device" is to
wonder who's
> watching it, and why. Everyone believes that the Potters are safely
> protected by the Fidelius. If that's so, then having someone sitting
in the
> same room as a trouble detector could look like overkill. And DD
definitely
> _does_ trust the Fidelius, otherwise he wouldn't be using it to protect
> Grimmauld Place.

Annemehr's reply:
I lock my doors at night, even though I know a thief could still get
in.  Dumbledore doesn't have to have 100% confidence in the Fidelius
to use it, because it *might* work.  Grimmauld Place is protected by
more than just the Fidelius charm, and I still think it'd be
reasonable for DD to keep an eye on the Potters even though they had a
Secret Keeper.

> 
> Annemehr (before):
> > Dumbledore wouldn't send anyone from the Ministry.  Hagrid is someone
> > DD would trust with his life, and handily enough, stunners (and who
> > knows what else) bounce right off him.  He might have sent *only*
> > Hagrid because of the trust factor, too.

Ffred:
> There were (and still are) members of the Order who are aurors. Assuming
> they weren't on duty elsewhere (and where else would they be that
night?)
> then they'd be far better fitted to take on Voldemort than Hagrid,
who's got
> good natural defences but who (as JKR has mentioned) isn't that hot at
> magic.

Annemehr:
Maybe, only I think if OoP-member Aurors were there, they would have
to be responsible to the MoM, just as an off-duty police officer who
comes upon a crime is still officially a police officer while handling
it.  If DD wanted to handle things according to his own judgment only,
he might not have wanted any Ministry officials there at all.

I'm just musing here, of course.  Come to think of it, I wonder
whether Fudge ever found out that Shacklebolt and Tonks were in the
DoM fight in OoP, and if so what he made of that?

Annemehr





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  1 06:00:19 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 06:00:19 -0000
Subject: Where is Pettigrew?
In-Reply-To: <c1oj5c+l4qp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c1ujhj+vt3f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91836

> Jen: 
> Pettigrew is mysteriously absent. No character development, no 
> clues to his whereabouts...just gone.  Sirius mentioned him once, 
> commenting that his Padfoot disguise was useless after Pettigrew 
> leaked the information to LV. 
> 
> (As a side note, I find it interesting PP didn't leak this info to 
> LV during the first war when he was spying on the Order. Surely the 
> illegal animagi used their ability to thwart LV and this would be 
> valuable information to pass to LV.)

Carol:
I doubt that Peter revealed the illegal animagi to LV before the
Potters' murder because to do so would have revealed his own disguise
as well. I'm sure he had every intention of using that ability to get
away from LV and the Death Eaters if the situation ever got too hot to
handle--as it did when LV was vaporized. If the DEs had known then
that he could transform himself into a rat, they wouldn't have thought
he was dead. They'd have suspected a trick like the one he really pulled.

Jen: 
> <snip> I tend to think he left LV. He's such a little toady, but at the 
> same time his safety is the most important thing. Pettigrew's not 
> incompetent by any means and after all those years as a rat, he must 
> know places he can hide safely. He'll reappear, though. He has a 
> part in several unresolved story lines, esp. the night at Godric's 
> Hollow, the silver hand and the life-debt to Harry.

Carol:
I agree that both the life debt and the silver hand will play a role
later, probably together. The only scenario that occurs to my
impoverished imagination is Peter saving Harry from werewolf!Lupin by
being eaten himself, and killing Lupin in the process when the
werewolf swallows his silver hand. A bit too morbid for my taste, but
I'm sure that Pettigrew's fate and Lupin's are tied together and that
the silver hand is fated to kill the werewolf. Yes, I know Lupin is
immune to silver in human form (he drinks from a silver goblet in
OoP), but that doesn't mean it can't kill him when he's a werewolf. I
like Lupin, BTW, but I'm pretty sure he's one of the "favorite
characters" who are doomed to die.

Carol




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  1 06:39:19 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 06:39:19 -0000
Subject: Cedric and Pettigrew (was Re: Faking Sirius' Death?)
In-Reply-To: <002801c3fe33$e9880aa0$5c4e6751@f3b7j4>
Message-ID: <c1ulqn+ahc2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91837

Ffred wrote:
> <snip>The one person who _would_ have known that Sirius wasn't the
traitor and who didn't reveal the information was (of course) Snape,
who I'm sure smirked inwardly when his tormentor from school was sent
to prison for life. Revenge is a disk best eaten cold. <snip>

Carol:
I don't understand your position here. Are you assuming that Snape
knew that Sirius was not the Secret Keeper? How is that possible? I
doubt that Peter revealed his secret about the Potters in front of
Snape or any other DE (if we can count Snape as a DE when he was in
fact a spy for Dumbledore). 

At any rate, Snape's behavior throughout PoA indicates that he, like
Dumbledore himself, thought that Sirius was the Secret Keeper/traitor
and the murderer of twelve Muggles--a very dangerous man from whom all
of the students, and Harry in particular, needed to be protected.

Carol




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Mon Mar  1 08:48:39 2004
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus)
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 08:48:39 -0000
Subject: Cedric and Pettigrew (was Re: Faking Sirius' Death?)
In-Reply-To: <c1ueg9+820u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c1utd7+9fve@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91838

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" <annemehr at y...> 
wrote:
> 
> Annemehr's reply:
> I lock my doors at night, even though I know a thief could still get
> in.  Dumbledore doesn't have to have 100% confidence in the Fidelius
> to use it, because it *might* work.  Grimmauld Place is protected by
> more than just the Fidelius charm, and I still think it'd be
> reasonable for DD to keep an eye on the Potters even though they 
had a
> Secret Keeper.

I completely agree. We must also remember that it's not just the 
Potters (i.e., James and Lily) that Dumbledore is concerned about. 
It's also - and probably mainly - baby Harry. The prophecy baby (or 
one of them), the ONLY one who can vanquish Voldemort. There is NO 
WAY that Dumbledore hadn't used everything he could to protect Harry 
and his family. That's why it had never seemed bizarre to me that DD 
knew almost immediately that something was wrong at Godric's Hollow. 

> Ffred:
> > There were (and still are) members of the Order who are aurors. 
Assuming  they weren't on duty elsewhere (and where else would they 
be that night?)
> > then they'd be far better fitted to take on Voldemort than Hagrid,
> who's got good natural defences but who (as JKR has mentioned) 
isn't that hot at magic.
> 
> Annemehr:
> Maybe, only I think if OoP-member Aurors were there, they would have
> to be responsible to the MoM, just as an off-duty police officer who
> comes upon a crime is still officially a police officer while 
handling
> it.  If DD wanted to handle things according to his own judgment 
only, he might not have wanted any Ministry officials there at all.
> 

Again, I agree. Dumbledore's first concern would be protecting Harry, 
which he did immediately (almost) by placing him with the Dursleys. 
Ministry officials would have other concerns, and may not agree with 
him. Besides, he would want to avoid the red tape involved. 
More importantly, the prophecy was a great secret. Besides the 
Potters, I wouldn't think that DD told anyone it's content. I doubt 
that even in OoP, when they were all busy guarding the prophecy, that 
the OoP members actually knew what the prophecy actually says. In any 
case, DD would certainly keep it a secret from the Ministry at large, 
whom he cannot trust. 
Regarding his sending Hagrid. I'm sure that when he sent Hagrid he 
knew that Voldemort was powerless. I don't know how, but he knew. 
Remember, the only one who can match up to Voldemort is DD. If he had 
any doubt regarding Voldemort's downfall, DD would have gone himself -
 not sent Hagrid, or anybody else, on their own. 


Naama




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Mon Mar  1 09:29:13 2004
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus)
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 09:29:13 -0000
Subject: Cedric and Pettigrew (was Re: Faking Sirius' Death)
In-Reply-To: <c1thg0+9ton@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c1uvp9+7592@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91839

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "confusinglyso" 
<pjcousins at b...> wrote:
> 
> Now confusinglyso (Phil)
> The catch is, is LV telling the truth ?
> How would LV know he cannot touch Harry ? He must, at least, have
> tried to touch or possess him to learn he could not.
> We are limited for evidence (facts?) to the words of LV,( can we 
> believe him?),
> and Dumbledore's brief explanations, again while not lies, do not 
> tell Harry (or us), all necessary details.
> I am starting to believe Harry is more likely to absorb skills like 
> Parcelmouth from LV possessing him, than from a misfiring AK spell.
> 

I don't think that Voldemort realized that he couldn't touch Harry 
until 10 years later, when Quirrel's hands were burned when he 
grabbed Harry. If Voldemort was aware of it, he would have warned 
Quirrel in some way. 
As to believing Voldemort - my approach is that both DD's end of year 
speeches, and Voldermot's graveyard speech must be accepted as 
completely truthful. This, not for inner story reasons, but because 
they are presented in such a way, that revealing them as deceitful 
would collapse the integrity of the story (and of the author). If the 
reader cannot take these speeches as the final reveal it all, mystery 
solving, grounding narratives, then he knows nothing at all, and the 
story becomes chaotic and meaningless. 
Regarding Harry receiving Voldemort's powers. We have no evidence 
whatsoever that Voldemort ever tried to possess Harry (before OoP, of 
course). On the other hand, we know for a fact that Harry's scar 
reacts to Voldemort's presence, to his feelings, and that it 
functions as a conduit of thoughts and emotions between them. Why do 
we need to posit a second mechanism for transferral of powers, then? 
It's completely redundant, IMO.


Naama 





From mad_maxime at hotmail.com  Mon Mar  1 00:12:28 2004
From: mad_maxime at hotmail.com (mad_maxime)
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 00:12:28 -0000
Subject: In the beginning
In-Reply-To: <2C691372-6AEA-11D8-BDA3-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com>
Message-ID: <c1tv5c+if1i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91841

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Barry Arrowsmith
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:

<snip>

> What if Voldy didn't go to Godrics Hollow to kill Harry but to
absorb him the way he did Tom. Good way to  get rid of a future
problem before it happens. May up his power ratings too. Such an
attack might open Voldy's mind to Harry as Voldy tries to slurp
Harry's consciousness into the multiple personality -  and  in there
Harry would see Tom.  And if Lily's protective spell caused Voldy to
be violently repulsed and to discorporate, leaving a scar to mark the
attempt, then Harry may be left with a vague memory of this sixteen
year old boy who seems very familiar somehow. Other things stuck too -
bit like an unwelcome guest being thrown out but leaving his baggage
behind. Parceltongue and what else? Have to wait and see, but as it's
from Sally, it won't be very nice.
>
> Kneasy

Max:

Very interesting theory Kneasy.  I like it.  I've always speculated
that Lily was very pro-active in terms of building up protections for
Harry if Voldemort were ever to break through their defenses.  I don't
believe for a second that the 'protective spell' that saved Harry was
something that just happened automatically because Lily sacrificed
herself for him. 

No, Lily was very skilled in charms.  Imo, she actively conjured the
ancient magic that would allow her sacrifice to save Harry.  And I
believe she marked Harry with the spell before Voldemort even entered
the room.

Maybe the spell was set up to protect Harry against any kind of curse
that threatened his safety, be it AK or an "absorptive spell" as you
are speculating.

The only persuasive evidence I can find against your theory is from
Voldemort, himself.  He states (p.653 GoF US edition):

"My curse was deflected by the woman's foolish sacrifice, and it
rebounded upon myself. . . . You know my goal - to conquer death.  And
now, I was tested, and it appeared that one or more of my experiments
had worked . . . . for I had not been killed, though the curse should
have done it."

It sure sounds like he's talking about the AK curse.  But it's true,
he never does mention the curse by name. . . .

Max (a new member who hopes this post won't take 12 hours to show up! :) )





From teshara at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  1 00:37:09 2004
From: teshara at yahoo.com (Chelle)
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 00:37:09 -0000
Subject: Rats at Hogwarts (was Cedric and Pettigrew)
In-Reply-To: <20040229102343.31670.qmail@web21409.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c1u0jl+78jn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91842

Pip!Squeak wrote: 
> <snip>
> Oh, and rats aren't on the approved pets list. How *did* Percy get 
> permission to bring a rat to school? That one, particular rat.
 
Elihu's answer:
> Maybe because the Weasleys were on close terms with Dumbledore, 
> they got special permission to allow their son to bring a rat of 
> theirs to school. Dumbledore didn't know that this rat is a problem 
> until shortly before Percy graduated.


That's on the First years list. In the first book Lee Jordan, a third
year is bringing his pet tarantula to Hogwarts. Maybe the school wants
them to get settled and the idea of what type of environment they're
supposed to be living in before they decide to bring in a complicated
pet. I would guess, having a tarantula of my own they would have had
to rearrange the boys dorm for that year to accomidate Lee's pet.
It would have had to be something Lee felt comfortable with his year
mates about. 
Could you imagine arriving your first year terrified of spiders and
your roomate springs a giant tarantula on you? Cats, toads, and owls
are pretty safe.

~ Chelle
http://www.fanfiction.net/~teshara





From don_john at web.de  Mon Mar  1 10:21:59 2004
From: don_john at web.de (Pet)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 11:21:59 +0100 ((MEZ) Mitteleurop?ische Zeit)
Subject: Fidelius, Surveillance, Means of Communication (was Re: Cedric and Pettigrew)
References: <c1ueg9+820u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <40430EC7.000001.95819@GOLIATH>

No: HPFGUIDX 91843

Annemehr wondered:
> > I don't know how the WW at large found out, but since OoP I wonder if
> > DD hadn't had one of those "reliable methods of communicating" with
> > the Potters, or some sort of trouble detector.  In a world with
> > sneakoscopes and foe glasses, and magic two-way mirrors, I would think
> > he would have.
 
Ffred's reply:
> Only problem with the theory of the "surveillance device" is to
> wonder who's watching it, and why. Everyone believes that the Potters 
> are safely protected by the Fidelius. If that's so, then having someone 
> sitting in the same room as a trouble detector could look like overkill. 
> And DD definitely _does_ trust the Fidelius, otherwise he wouldn't be 
> using it to protect Grimmauld Place.
 
Annemehr's reply:
> Grimmauld Place is protected by more than just the Fidelius charm, and 
> I still think it'd be reasonable for DD to keep an eye on the Potters 
> even though they had a Secret Keeper.
 
Pet here: (first post warning, be gentle)
So, er, what about a portrait? It`s not entirely unlikely that the Potters had a portrait on their walls that acted as a messenger between them and Dumbledore. We've learned that this works even under the Fidelius Charm for Grimmauld Place, so why not for the Potters?  The portrait would make an excellent and reliable eyewitness for DD that Voldemort is indeed 'gone'. 





From HMaffioli at cox.net  Mon Mar  1 06:16:52 2004
From: HMaffioli at cox.net (Heather Maffioli)
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 22:16:52 -0800
Subject: Where is Pettigrew?
References: <c1u0f6+60js@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <005901c3ff54$ca2405c0$6401a8c0@sd.cox.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 91844

Me (Heather): 
Is it possible that PP is in fact spying on the Order throughout 
the book?

Potioncat:
I can't recall where I read it. But my understanding is that the 
American illustrator did not have any "inside" information and had 
not been allowed to read the book at all when she did the various 
illustrations.  So the rat would have to be taken with a grain of 
salt.

Me Again (Heather):
Actually (as per an article) the British illustrator was not allowed 
to read the book in advance but Ms. Grandpre' was given an the 
opportunity to read the book and design the art based on her idea 
of the novel.


Heather




From rtb333 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  1 11:57:38 2004
From: rtb333 at yahoo.com (rtb333)
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 11:57:38 -0000
Subject: Snape as a Spy
Message-ID: <c1v8fi+7mfm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91847

I don't post often, but I did come across something that has bothered 
me since the end of the forth book.

LV says that one of his Death Eaters is too cowardly to return 
(Karkaroff).  He also says that he fears that one has left him for 
good.  Up to now I and I know many others theorize that he is 
referring to Snape.  I think that it is odd that Snape says in the 
Fifth book while responding to Harry, that it is his job to spy for 
the Order.  There seems to be a contradiction.  I was thinking about 
it and in the fifth book Bagman was missing.  He could be the Death 
Eater that would never come back.  He was already accused of being a 
DE by Karkaroff. This would make it possible for Snape to be a spy 
for the order without LV wanting to kill him.

RTB (Who didn't find this in the archives)





From kcawte at ntlworld.com  Mon Mar  1 21:00:42 2004
From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 13:00:42 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Rats at Hogwarts (was Cedric and Pettigrew)
References: <c1u0jl+78jn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <004501c3ffd0$42f37dc0$bcde6251@kathryn>

No: HPFGUIDX 91848


"The Loudest Noise Comes From The Electric Minerva."
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Chelle" <teshara at yahoo.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 29, 2004 4:37 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Rats at Hogwarts (was Cedric and Pettigrew)


> Pip!Squeak wrote:
> > <snip>
> > Oh, and rats aren't on the approved pets list. How *did* Percy get
> > permission to bring a rat to school? That one, particular rat.
>
>
 ~ Chelle
> That's on the First years list. In the first book Lee Jordan, a third
> year is bringing his pet tarantula to Hogwarts. Maybe the school wants
> them to get settled and the idea of what type of environment they're
> supposed to be living in before they decide to bring in a complicated
> pet. I would guess, having a tarantula of my own they would have had
> to rearrange the boys dorm for that year to accomidate Lee's pet.
> It would have had to be something Lee felt comfortable with his year
> mates about.
> Could you imagine arriving your first year terrified of spiders and
> your roomate springs a giant tarantula on you? Cats, toads, and owls
> are pretty safe.
>
>
K

Hmm, I'm not so sure about that - I think fears of toads, birds in general
and cats, while not as common as fear of spiders, aren't exactly *rare*. I
suspect the rule is there as an aid to the teachers when it comes to saying
no to particularly extravagant familiars. i.e. when Draco (for example)
decides he simply *has* to outdo his classmates and bring something rare,
expensive, and hard to care for to school or young!Hagrid decides he wants
an Acromantula, or someone like Charlie Weasley wants to bring a Welsh
Dragon with him (because it'll help with his future career) the teachers can
simply point to the rule and say no (especially helpful if the child is
supported by a parent - like Lucius maybe). While there may well be plenty
of exceptions the teachers have that extra little bit of backing by being
able to say 'it's against the rules' - if all else fails in trying to rein
in a child and/or his/her parent they can always give notice to the rest of
the school that they are enforcing the rule from September and there will be
*no* exceptions.

Anyone else wonder if maybe the rule is Hagrid's fault in the first place? I
wonder what little first-year Hagrid thought was a suitable pet?

K





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Mar  1 14:28:48 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 14:28:48 -0000
Subject: Cedric and Pettigrew (was Re: Faking Sirius' Death)
In-Reply-To: <c1uvp9+7592@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c1vhb0+fd24@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91849


> > Now confusinglyso (Phil)
> > The catch is, is LV telling the truth ?

Naama:
> As to believing Voldemort - my approach is that both DD's end 
of year  speeches, and Voldermot's graveyard speech must be 
accepted as  completely truthful. <<

JKR has told us herself that Voldemort sometimes lies in his 
villain-tells-all speeches:

http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2000/100
0-livechat-barnesnoble.html

Q> In Chamber of Secrets, Hagrid is supposed to have raised 
werewolf cubs under his bed. Are these the same kind of 
werewolves as Professor Lupin?

A> No. Riddle was telling lies about Hagrid, just slandering him. 

Not only a lie, but a lie about a *werewolf*. So I am afraid that we 
have to take Voldemort's words with a liberal helping of salt. 
Notice that the true reveal-all speech in GoF is Barty Crouch's, 
with his veracity assured by Veritaserum.

I do like Kneasy's idea of a souped-up AK, one that is, say, 
harder to dodge but more likely to cause collateral damage if it 
misses. Voldemort wouldn't want to use it in the graveyard or the 
Ministry for risk of damaging his followers or Bella if he missed. 

Pippin





From sophierom at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  1 15:01:49 2004
From: sophierom at yahoo.com (sophierom)
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 15:01:49 -0000
Subject: Kreacher
In-Reply-To: <20040229184354.65379.qmail@web14102.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c1vj8t+4h11@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91850

What happened to Kreacher?

bboy_mn writes:

"I think Kreacher is no longer a problem for sadly his head has 
joined his ancestors on the wall."

Tyler suggests:

"But if he'd had his memory removed they could
re-educate him, maybe make him nicer."


Sophierom:

I believe someone has also suggested before that Kreacher's gone to 
live with the Malfoys, since Narcissa is a Black?  Narcissa would 
also be a good choice since she did lose Dobby a few years back 
(though she's probably had him replaced).  

Wouldn't it be interesting if Regulus Black really is alive and is 
now working for the Order? Kreacher's gone to work for the Malfoys, 
but upon learning that Regulus is still alive, he's forced to go 
back to the most direct Black descendent.  Regulus and the Order are 
then able to force Kreacher to spill the beans on everything he's 
heard while living with the Malfoys.  Since I really have very 
little understanding of House Elf "rules," I'm pretty sure this is a 
improbable scenario, but it would be interesting.    

Sophierom




From free_lunch_club at hotmail.com  Mon Mar  1 15:03:53 2004
From: free_lunch_club at hotmail.com (thetruthisoutthere_13)
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 15:03:53 -0000
Subject: McGonagall might be the evil one
In-Reply-To: <c1ta6n+e3rs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c1vjcp+aocm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91851

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jojobinks1983" 
<jojobinks1983 at y...> wrote:

> I probably haven't done my research properly here but is 
McGonagall 
> in the order? She always seems suspiciously absent. 


In OotP, Harry notes McGonagall showing up at the order's 
headquarter "looking very odd in a Muggle dress and coat, though she 
also seemed too busy to linger" (American edition, p 118). Her 
presence at the HQ implies she's part of the order, although there 
might be some wiggle room there for theories.

-kg





From sophierom at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  1 15:45:43 2004
From: sophierom at yahoo.com (sophierom)
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 15:45:43 -0000
Subject: House Elf Liberation (was:  CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 13)
Message-ID: <c1vlr7+qnd7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91852

Penny asks:

"2. What do you think about Hermione's attempt to trick the house 
elves into picking up clothing that will set them free? Do you agree 
with Ron that "they should at least see what they're picking up?""

Sophierom:

I think Hermione has clearly become desperate at this point in her 
campaign to secure rights for House Elves.  And, although it pains 
me to agree with Ron, who can often act like an idiot, Hermione's 
hidden clothes plan is wrongheaded.  She's manipulating the House 
Elves, just as other wizards manipulate them.   

This is the problem with Hermione's entire approach to house elf 
liberation; she thinks she knows best.  This criticism has been 
mentioned on the list before, but I would like to modify it 
somewhat.  While Hermione can be patronizing and somewhat obnoxious 
about her S.P.E.W. campaign, I think she gets too much flak (both 
from other characters and members of this list) for pursuing 
something that most wizards (and muggles like us) would rather 
ignore.  Some wizards (Dumbledore, for example) are kind to house 
elves, but they don't appear to take any substantial action to 
change the status quo.  This is okay for the house elves at 
Hogwarts. They probably lead relatively decent lives.  But what 
about house elves like Dobby, who are stuck in horrible homes? More 
importantly, what about the wizarding community? I think JKR has 
shown us, on multiple occasions, how wizards' sense of superiority 
has led to serious fractures within the magical community as a 
whole. Sirius didn't take Kreacher seriously, and the DEs took 
advantage of that.  LV can only beat a divided magical world.

What Hermione needs to do is make fewer hats and spend more time 
learning. Who would ever think Hermione needed to do more studying? 
But as far as I can remember from my readings of the books, Hermione 
knows very little about house elves culture, history, and so forth.  
Maybe if she would spend more time talking to some of the house 
elves. Most of them would probably refuse to talk to her about 
anything substantial, but she's got a great resource in Dobby.  She 
should ask him about his life, what he was taught when he grew up, 
how house elves live, etc.  Then she might have a better idea of how 
to approach a political movement that makes sense within house 
elves' culture.  

No matter how bad her approach, Hermione is the only character so 
far who seems to take this issue seriously, and she'd dead right 
about its importance.  At the end of OotP, in the MoM, there are 
only two creatures from the magical fountain who are left standing: 
the house elf and the goblin.  I think this represents their 
neutrality at this point.  We've seen that the wizarding community 
is divided (hence, the destruction of both the witch and the wizard 
statues).  We've also seen that the centaurs are now divided 
(Firenze has joined Dumbledore, the others have turned their back on 
him).  What the Order needs is to get some allies.  Most of the 
giants have probably allied with LV, or at least they've agreed to 
keep out of the business.  The dementors are clearly on LV's side.  
If the goblins and house elves are simply neutral, this can only 
help LV and hurt Harry.  LV benefits as long as the Order remains an 
isolated group of wizards and witches.  Even now that the Ministry 
has accepted the return of LV, I wouldn't say that the wizarding 
community will be all against LV.  Fear is a powerful weapon, and 
it's one that Dumbledore and Harry will never employ to get wizards 
on their side.  

Okay, I've strayed from the point a bit, sorry.  I guess what I 
really want to say is that until the house elves unite as a group 
(and they can't if they're all serving separate wizard masters), 
they will be effectively neutral.  And until wizards accept the fact 
that house elves are powerful in their own right (and should be 
allowed to use that power), house elves will be neutral. So, it's in 
Harry and Dumbledore's best interest to help Hermione find an 
effective way to get the house elves to serve themselves, not 
separate wizard masters.

Sophierom




From annemehr at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  1 16:16:00 2004
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 16:16:00 -0000
Subject: Fidelius, Surveillance, Means of Communication (was Re: Cedric and Pettigrew)
In-Reply-To: <40430EC7.000001.95819@GOLIATH>
Message-ID: <c1vnk0+7eap@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91853


> Annemehr, previously:
> > Grimmauld Place is protected by more than just the Fidelius charm,
and 
> > I still think it'd be reasonable for DD to keep an eye on the Potters 
> > even though they had a Secret Keeper.


> Pet here: (first post warning, be gentle)
> So, er, what about a portrait? It`s not entirely unlikely that the
Potters had a portrait on their walls that acted as a messenger
between them and Dumbledore. We've learned that this works even under
the Fidelius Charm for Grimmauld Place, so why not for the Potters? 
The portrait would make an excellent and reliable eyewitness for DD
>that Voldemort is indeed 'gone'.


Annemehr:
Beautiful! And when the Potters' house begins to be demolished, the
subject of the painting simply flees to their other frame.  They could
even try to get back again afterward to see what they could see.  If
the painting was still intact, great; if it was destroyed, well at
least Dumbledore was informed of all that had gone before.

I really hope you're right, and that Harry gets to talk to that
portrait.  It'd be amusing if it turned out it was Phineas Nigellus --
what a conversation that would be!  And old Phineas does seem to have
a lot of frames around.

Annemehr
with a big "welcome to the group!" for Pet  :-)





From mnaperrone at aol.com  Mon Mar  1 15:28:32 2004
From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001)
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 15:28:32 -0000
Subject: Snape as a Spy
In-Reply-To: <c1v8fi+7mfm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c1vkr0+utl3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91854

RTB wrote:
> LV says that one of his Death Eaters is too cowardly to return 
> (Karkaroff).  He also says that he fears that one has left him for 
> good.  Up to now I and I know many others theorize that he is 
> referring to Snape.  I think that it is odd that Snape says in the 
> Fifth book while responding to Harry, that it is his job to spy for 
> the Order.  There seems to be a contradiction.  I was thinking 
> about it and in the fifth book Bagman was missing.  He could be the 
> Death Eater that would never come back.  He was already accused of 
> being a DE by Karkaroff. This would make it possible for Snape to 
> be a spy for the order without LV wanting to kill him.


Not sure about the Bagman theory, but I sort of think Snape was the 
one "too cowardly" to return who would be punished.  We all assume 
that Voldie KNEW Karakoff left because he was afraid.  That's what 
the readers know b/c Karakoff told Snape that, but does Voldie know 
it?  Voldie may have such a link to his DE that he feels or senses 
these motivations, but what if he doesn't?  What if all he knew was 
Karakoff had fled Hogwarts and Snape didn't.  From Voldie's POV, it 
would probably seem like Karakoff had left him forever, while it 
would seem like Snape just didn't try to sneak away.

That would also explain how Snape is able to continue to spy and 
wasn't killed.  He returned to Voldie after the tournament, took his 
punishment, and now is spying.  

The other option, in my mind, is that Voldie knows or suspects Snape 
is a spy and is simply waiting for a particular moment to extract his 
revenge.  There's no real evidence of that at this point - just 
another possible explanation of how Snape could be the one who "left 
forever" and not be dead at this point.

mnaper





From jojobinks1983 at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Mar  1 16:20:40 2004
From: jojobinks1983 at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Jo=20Hill?=)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:20:40 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: McGonagall might be the evil one
In-Reply-To: <c1vjcp+aocm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040301162040.65622.qmail@web60801.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91855

Jo wrote:
> I probably haven't done my research properly here but is 
> McGonagall in the order? She always seems suspiciously absent. 

kg replied:
> In OotP, Harry notes McGonagall showing up at the order's 
> headquarter "looking very odd in a Muggle dress and coat, though she 
> also seemed too busy to linger" (American edition, p 118). Her 
> presence at the HQ implies she's part of the order, although there 
> might be some wiggle room there for theories.

I knew I had forgotten something. However she is curiously inconspicuous, and 
has been throughout all of the books IMO. She does not appeal as a character 
whose past should be torn apart and speculated on in discussions like this. We 
know there is something dodgy with Snape, Wormtail is going to play a part, 
Dumbledore is annoyingly cagey with what he lets on etc... In the past JKR has 
taken inconspicuous characters and revealed them as villains right at the end 
e.g. Quirrell, and arguably Moody/Crouch, even Ginny was absent for most of CoS 
in the name of prolonging the mystery. Maybe McGonagall isn't evil, maybe she 
is genuine, but I can't believe that her only role is as an authority figure in 
place to keep an eye on the meddlesome trio.

Jo




From nkafkafi at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  1 18:21:20 2004
From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi)
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 18:21:20 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 13 (Detention with Dolores)
In-Reply-To: <03be01c3ff37$6f097200$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01>
Message-ID: <c1vuv0+ehld@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91856

> 1.  This is one of the first signs of how Ron will handle his
> responsibilities as prefect.  Do you think it was merely his family
> relationship with the Twins that kept him from being a rules-
enforcer with
> Hermione or would he have shirked his responsibilities if it had 
been Seamus
> and Dean doing something questionable or something that clearly 
broke a
> school rule?  Do you think Harry might have taken his prefect 
duties any
> more seriously than Ron did?
>

Neri: 
I think everybody who has some experience with brothers dynamics will 
agree that Ron supervising two older, aggressive brothers is 
unimaginable. Even Hermione, who is the perfect prefect material, can 
manage them only by threatening them with their mother. The twins 
should have been handled by the prefect of their year (who also made 
him/herself scare, I notice).

I don't think Harry is more a prefect material than Ron is. Harry is 
a born leader, but he only leads by personal example. He is the 
commander who would charge the enemy by himself, not looking back to 
see if the rest of the soldeirs are coming along. They would come, 
precisely because he'll charge anyway, but this is a very different 
leading style than what a prefect needs. Both Ron and Harry are not 
ideal for prefects, but at least they have the basics: if they would 
have seen someone being slighted or wronged, they would have stand up 
to him.

During the first DA lesson, Harry catches Fred and George messing 
with Smith, and they quickly stop and aplogize, but if they wouldn't 
have acknowladged his authority then, I can't think how he would have 
enforced it on them.


   
> 2.  What do you think about Hermione's attempt to trick the house 
elves into
> picking up clothing that will set them free?  Do you agree with Ron 
that
> "they should at least see what they're picking up?"
>

I think most of us agree that the house elves can't be freed against 
their own will (that would be an internal contradiction), though I 
suspect Ron's objection is at least in part just plain wizarding 
conservatism. In fact, both Ron and Hermione behave in this matter 
according to the programming of their differing backgrounds.
  
> 3.  This is one of several instances where Seamus seems to be 
trying to talk
> to Harry.  As in other cases, Harry often doesn't want to take the 
trouble
> and/or risk the confrontation that might occur if he encouraged an
> antagonist to discuss things with him.  You may recall that Rowling 
used
> similar language to signal that Ron might have been amenable to 
making it up
> with Harry sooner, but Harry's stubborn pride and unwillingness to 
engage in
> anything emotionally "messy" always gets in the way.  Do you think 
it is
> stubborn pride, emotional distance or perhaps inner protectiveness 
that
> causes Harry to react this way?
>

Neri
Yep, Harry should have been less proud, I guess, but nobody's perfect 
(not even Hermione), and as I mentioned above, it is Harry's style to 
do what he thinks is right and damn with what other people think. 
It's a very fine line between being very determined and being very 
stubborn.


<snip>> 
> 
> 8.  Were you convinced by Hermione's explanation that maybe it was
> coincidence that Harry's scar hurt when Umbridge touched him?  Is 
Hermione
> right so often in OoP that it might be a red herring in later books?
>

Neri:
Actually, Harry himself thinks that it might be just a coincidene the 
moment it happnes. But I agree Hermione is very annoying being right 
all the time. OTOH we think she is wrong about SPEW, so will it turn 
out that she is wrong about something critical, but correct about 
SPEW?



> 9.  Shipping question (of course!): what do you make of the fact 
that
> Hermione seems anxious to get off to bed on a night when Ron will 
clearly
> wanting to be celebrating and might even have confidence enough to 
make a
> romantic gesture towards her?  If she knows he likes her and she 
likes him
> back, why would she not take the chance to be alone with him when 
he's in
> the best spirits ever before (and instead asks Harry to join her in 
knitting
> the next day, looking "disappointed" at his answer)?  <g>

Neri:
Did someone mention the word "shipping"??? I agree R/H shippers 
should be disappointed about Hermione's behavior in this chapter. 
Let's face it, Hermione just doesn't care about Quidditch. OTOH, H/H 
shippers don't have any reasons to cheer either. Hermione hardly 
express any sympathy for Harry, who is just back from 7 hrs 
detention. She is only disappointed because she again failed to 
recruit him to her SPEW schemes. In my opinion, all three members of 
our trio are being perfectly self-centered and self-occupied here. 
Ron has finally achieved his great ambition to get into the team, 
Hermione has SPEW and Harry has his personal vendetta with Umbridge. 
All three find it difficult to even pretend they care about what is 
so important to the other two. It is actually comical, but it is also 
realistic. One of the reason I like JKR's writing is that her 
characters are not little saints. 

Neri




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Mon Mar  1 19:02:40 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 19:02:40 -0000
Subject: Kreacher
In-Reply-To: <20040229184354.65379.qmail@web14102.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c201cg+qo7h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91857

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, tyler maroney <tmar78 at y...> 
wrote:
> Siriusly Snapey Susan wrote:
> Yikes!  Would *you* want Kreacher working in 
> the Hogwarts kitchen? *I* wouldn't!  He's such 
> an unpleasant little bugger--who could get along 
> with him?  And I wouldn't trust him w/ my food 
> preparation either!
> 
> 
> 
> Tyler:
> But if he'd had his memory removed they could
> re-educate him,  maybe make him nicer.  After all, 
> didn't Dumbledore say he was a nasty little bugger
> cause he was made that way by wizards?  If that social
> programming was removed,  he'd be a blank slate. 
> There might just be a chance of helping him become a
> nice guy then (in theory).  
> 
> I dunno...I just find it hard to accept that Dumbledore 
> had no other option but to continue letting him live at 
> HQ knowing he was a potential danger.  There just had to 
> be another way.  Isn't there some way of magically putting 
> someone in an indefinite state of suspended animation maybe?
 

Susan again:
I don't think DD meant that Kreacher is totally and exclusively the 
result of how the witches & wizards in his life have treated him.  I 
took that comment to mean more universally that witches & wizards 
bear some responsibility for the condition in which house elves & 
other creatures find themselves, and that if those creatures are 
suspicious or resentful of wizards, then wizards would be wise to 
acknowledge that some of the blame lies w/ themselves for their 
treatment of said creatures. 

I also have to question how "simple" or even permissible it would be 
to remove someone's memory entirely!  It strikes me as an AWFULLY 
drastic & likely unethical thing to do to someone.  And if we're 
talking about treating creatures more carefully & respectfully, then 
just deciding to REMOVE a memory because the creature seems dangerous 
hardly seems an example of such treatment.

Siriusly Snapey Susan


 




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Mon Mar  1 19:14:31 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 19:14:31 -0000
Subject: Cedric and Pettigrew (was Re: Faking Sirius' Death)
In-Reply-To: <c1uvp9+7592@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2022n+eo7u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91858

confusinglyso (Phil) wrote:
> > How would LV know he cannot touch Harry ? He must, at least, have
> > tried to touch or possess him to learn he could not.

Naama replied:
> I don't think that Voldemort realized that he couldn't touch Harry 
> until 10 years later, when Quirrel's hands were burned when he 
> grabbed Harry. If Voldemort was aware of it, he would have warned 
> Quirrel in some way. 

Susan now:
I think you may be right about this.  Kneasy's theory about an 
initial possession attempt [or "consciousness slurp" :-)] in GH is 
fascinating [of course...as always], but I think it's possible that 
you are right that Voldy didn't know until the Quirrell Touch & Burn.

I think movie contamination can enter in here, in that the movie 
stupidly shows Quirrell wearing the turban & avoiding Harry's 
handshake **at their first meeting**.  This is clearly not what 
happens in the book.  They're not QuirrellMort at that first meeting. 
But the scene seems to imply that they're already one *and* that 
Quirrell understands even then that he cannot touch Harry.  

Anyway, this is an interesting question.  Just when DID Voldy realize 
he couldn't touch Harry?  

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Mon Mar  1 19:20:35 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 19:20:35 -0000
Subject: Fidelius, Surveillance, Means of Communication
In-Reply-To: <c1vnk0+7eap@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c202e3+o7cs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91859

Pet here:
> > So, er, what about a portrait? It`s not entirely unlikely that the
> Potters had a portrait on their walls that acted as a messenger
> between them and Dumbledore. We've learned that this works even 
under
> the Fidelius Charm for Grimmauld Place, so why not for the Potters? 
> The portrait would make an excellent and reliable eyewitness for DD
> >that Voldemort is indeed 'gone'.
> 

Then Annemehr:
> Beautiful! And when the Potters' house begins to be demolished, the
> subject of the painting simply flees to their other frame.  They 
could
> even try to get back again afterward to see what they could see.  If
> the painting was still intact, great; if it was destroyed, well at
> least Dumbledore was informed of all that had gone before.

Now Susan:
Oh, I agree!  What a great idea, Pet.  How 'bout the portrait being 
of golden snitch inventor Bowman Wright?  I still like the idea that 
the Potters are his descendants and that that's where their money 
[and maybe even some of Harry's seemingly inate flying ability] came 
from.  I mean, we know Wright was from Godric's Hollow from QTTA, 
right?  Maybe Madam Hooch has a portrait of him up somewhere, since 
he might well be someone she admired. :-)

Siriusly Snapey Susan






From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Mon Mar  1 19:29:50 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 19:29:50 -0000
Subject: McGonagall might be the evil one
In-Reply-To: <20040301162040.65622.qmail@web60801.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c202ve+4f43@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91861

Jo wrote:
> > I probably haven't done my research properly here but is 
> > McGonagall in the order? She always seems suspiciously absent. 

kg replied:
> > In OotP, Harry notes McGonagall showing up at the order's 
> > headquarter "looking very odd in a Muggle dress and coat, though 
> > she also seemed too busy to linger" (American edition, p 118). 
> > Her presence at the HQ implies she's part of the order, although 
> > there might be some wiggle room there for theories.

Jo again:
> I knew I had forgotten something. However she is curiously 
> inconspicuous, and has been throughout all of the books IMO. 

Susan now:
Don't forget she also got hit by those four simultaneous stunning 
spells.  She was carted off to St. Mungo's, lucky to be alive.  I can 
see this as one reason she wasn't around much at the climactic 
moments of OoP.

Siriusly Snapey Susan






From manawydan at ntlworld.com  Mon Mar  1 19:39:01 2004
From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 19:39:01 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Cedric and Pettigrew
References: <1078133367.8871.91822.m15@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <001501c3ffc4$da19c260$5c4e6751@f3b7j4>

No: HPFGUIDX 91862

Annemehr wrote:
> I lock my doors at night, even though I know a thief could still get
> in.  Dumbledore doesn't have to have 100% confidence in the Fidelius
> to use it, because it *might* work.  Grimmauld Place is protected by
> more than just the Fidelius charm, and I still think it'd be
> reasonable for DD to keep an eye on the Potters even though they had a
> Secret Keeper.

I think there's still an issue, if there's a surveillance device, of who is
supposed to be watching it? Suppose DD has a handy clock for the Potters of
the kind that Molly has. Voldemort arrives, the hands on the clock move to
"mortal peril", but unless DD is watching the clock around the, um, clock,
he might not even be in the room when it indicates the danger. He's still
got his duties as Headmaster and to the Order, after all. Given Moody's
remarks about the state of the war at the time Harry was orphaned, could the
Order have afforded to have a member constantly watching, because surely
that was the idea of the Potters going into hiding, protected by the
Fidelius.

Annemehr:
> I'm just musing here, of course.  Come to think of it, I wonder
> whether Fudge ever found out that Shacklebolt and Tonks were in the
> DoM fight in OoP, and if so what he made of that?

Depends what you think his real motives are. He certainly couldn't do
anything _officially_ - what could he reproach them with? But I think that
in the snakepit of intrigue that's the Ministry, he would certainly not be
happy about his Aurors going off on their own without his knowledge.

Carol wrote:
> I don't understand your position here. Are you assuming that Snape
> knew that Sirius was not the Secret Keeper? How is that possible? I
> doubt that Peter revealed his secret about the Potters in front of
> Snape or any other DE (if we can count Snape as a DE when he was in
> fact a spy for Dumbledore).

We know that Peter was a spy for Voldemort well before he became the secret
keeper.

We _don't_ know when exactly Snape went to Dumbledore, just that he faced
grave personal risk in doing so.

We know that Snape hated James Potter.

And it's a believable assumption that Snape was one of the "absent" DEs in
the graveyard scene, thereby having been one of Voldemort's inner circle.

I put all of those together to assume that:

Peter is made secret keeper. He runs along to the Dark Lord, does a little
dance of glee and tells him that he knows where the Potters are hiding.
Voldemort rubs his hands together, twiddles his moustaches, etc, and decides
that Peter will take him there. As a special treat, he tells Snape to come
too, to see his enemy get fried.

Snape (and in my heart I still think he was carrying a torch for Lily) makes
the decision that will redeem him: instead of going to Godric's Hollow, he
goes to Hogwarts and forewarns Dumbledore of what's going to happen.

That's how Snape knows about Peter. Later on, he has no reason to correct
Dumbledore's assumption that Sirius was the traitor, because as far as
everyone knows, that's all old history/

> At any rate, Snape's behavior throughout PoA indicates that he, like
> Dumbledore himself, thought that Sirius was the Secret Keeper/traitor
> and the murderer of twelve Muggles--a very dangerous man from whom all
> of the students, and Harry in particular, needed to be protected.

But remembering that Sirius was James's sidekick and Snape's tormentor, why
clear his name? Especially as doing so at that point would raise enormous
questions about why he hadn't done so 10 years before!

Cheers

Ffred


O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon
Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion
Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri




From Ali at zymurgy.org  Mon Mar  1 19:42:59 2004
From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali)
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 19:42:59 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 13 (Detention with Dolores)
In-Reply-To: <03be01c3ff37$6f097200$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01>
Message-ID: <c203o3+ba9c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91863

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pennylin" <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:
SUMMARY
Penny asked:-
 
 QUESTIONS
 
>>>> 1.  This is one of the first signs of how Ron will handle his
responsibilities as prefect.  Do you think it was merely his family
relationship with the Twins that kept him from being a rules-
enforcer with Hermione or would he have shirked his responsibilities 
if it had been Seamus and Dean doing something questionable or 
something that clearly broke a school rule?  Do you think Harry 
might have taken his prefect duties any more seriously than Ron did?
>>>

I think it very unlikely that Ron would have control over any of the 
older students, but certainly not his brothers. I know that some 
schools do have a prefect system involving 5th years and above, but 
I can't imagine the school really expecting the older students to do 
as younger students dictate. Perhaps this is where personal history 
interfers with my reading of the story, but in my school there was 
never really any questions of the prefects in my year telling 
students in their own year what to do. I would not have done so!

I don't think this is a case of Ron shirking responsibilities. I 
don't think that Harry would have joined Hermione in telling off the 
twins, he would probably have tried to have a quiet word with them.  
I actually feel it is Hermione over-estimating the power that her 
prefectship has given her.
 
>>> 2.  What do you think about Hermione's attempt to trick the 
house elves into picking up clothing that will set them free?  Do 
you agree with Ron that"they should at least see what they're 
picking up?"<<<

I always wonder whether Hermione's attempt to free the elves could 
have been successful, unless the students at Hogwarts are masters to 
the house elves *as well* as Dumbledore and the other staff. 
Hermione's attempt to trick elves into freedom though, whether or 
not it was possible, does seem a little sneeky. She has failed to 
convince them of the need to be free, so tries to free them anyhow. 
She has disregarded the severe pychological damage caused to Winky 
by the humililation of her enforced freedom. At this point in time, 
Hermione seems more dedicated to her cause than the rights and 
feelings of the elves themselves.
 
>>> 3.  Do you think it is stubborn pride, emotional distance or 
perhaps inner protectiveness that causes Harry to react this way?>>>

All of the above. I believe that Harry does bear pyschological 
damage from his abusive childhood. We might all think that he has 
done amazingly well in withstanding the side effects of the Dursley 
abuse, but sometimes, his reactions do show the costs of his 
survival tactics.
 
>>> 4.  On first read, did you guess what Ron was up to (practicing 
for the Keeper tryouts)?<<<

No. On the second read it seemed very, very obvious though.
 
>>> 5.  Is it possible that Harry was really there for 7 *hours* 
writing lines that cut into his own hand, or is this another case of 
Rowling not being very good with time details?<<<

I think that we have seen that Hogwarts detentions can be 
unorthodox, and although long, 7 hours is probably not unheard of. 
But, I cannot see how Harry could have continued self mutilation for 
so long - even if the cut did reheal immediately after he had made 
it. 
 
>>> 6.  Was Harry wrong to fail to alert even one Hogwarts professor 
about what was going on with Umbridge's detentions?  He probably 
didn't know the extent of her power at that exact point in time, so 
it was more likely Harry's distrust of adults and authority figures 
(and dislike of "showing weakness") that prompted his decision to 
stoically bear his ordeal and stay silent.
 Even Ron thinks Harry's desire to avoid having Umbridge know that 
she "got to him" is ridiculous, as he urges him to report the 
incidents to McGonagall or Dumbledore.<<<

I think that Harry should have told Dumbledore when it first 
happened. In reality, he knows that it is not weakness. But, I also 
wonder why Ron and Hermione didn't ask for support from the 
teachers. Harry was locked in his own private battle. He has 
frequently failed to get help when he should have. But his friends 
didn't try to help him either. 

 
>>> 8.  Were you convinced by Hermione's explanation that maybe it 
was coincidence that Harry's scar hurt when Umbridge touched him?  
Is Hermione right so often in OoP that it might be a red herring in 
later books?>>>

I felt rather frustrated with OoP's Hermione - she was almost too 
perfect and too mature. She is analytical enough for her to 
correctly think that the scar hurting might be caused by something 
else. I was far less convinced by her sudden ability to analyse how 
other girls felt. She seems to have changed enormously from the girl 
unable to show compassion to Lavender when her rabbit was killed in 
PoA. In a way, I hope Hermione gets it wrong soon, she will feel all 
the more real because of it.

 
>>> 9.  Shipping question (of course!): what do you make of the fact 
that Hermione seems anxious to get off to bed on a night when Ron 
will clearly wanting to be celebrating and might even have 
confidence enough to make a romantic gesture towards her?  If she 
knows he likes her and she likes him back, why would she not take 
the chance to be alone with him when he's in the best spirits ever 
before (and instead asks Harry to join her in knitting
the next day, looking "disappointed" at his answer)? <<<

Erm, I have to say that I had never thought about that until you 
asked. Hermione has consistently shown very little understanding 
about Quidditch, and although she is pleased for Ron, does not 
appear to be able to show much more enthusiasm than that. 
Truthfully, Hermione was too locked in her own crusade to really 
think about Ron's success. Perhaps this is a sign about her 
ambivalence towards Ron, but I'm more tempted to think it is a sign 
of her own selfishness. Although, thinking about it, she is not 
selfish when it comes to sharing Harry's troubles....

This might not be a popular thing to say, but my interpretation of 
OoP made an H/R Ship more likely. This is simply because both 
Hermione and Ron seem like sidekicks to Harry. They are separated 
from him by his destiny, but are thrust together by sharing 
knowledge of and support for Harry. And, they are of course both 
prefects, a job which does shut Harry out however much they try to 
include him in the rest of their lives. I think prior to OoP, I 
always thought that Harry and Hermione should be together, but OoP 
made this seem less likely.

Ali





From meriaugust at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  1 13:31:22 2004
From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust)
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 13:31:22 -0000
Subject: McGonagall might be the evil one
In-Reply-To: <c1ta6n+e3rs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c1vdva+2u3b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91864

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jojobinks1983" 
<jojobinks1983 at y...> wrote:
> I probably haven't done my research properly here but is 
McGonagall 
> in the order? She always seems suspiciously absent. Also, everyone 
> else had an important task to do at the end of GoF, what did she 
do? 
> You've got to admit she's an unlikely candidate for Voldemort's 
spy 
> but isn't that sometimes the way?
> 
> Can you see the paranoia taking over?
> 
> Jo

In OP, McGonagal was seen by Harry at 12 Grimmauld wearing Muggle 
clothes, though for what reason we never find out. (And in what 
chapter I can't remember, books on loan, can anyone find cannon for 
me?) I would think that DD would trust McGonagal to take care of 
Hogwarts if any thing should happen to him, and as such she probably 
doesn't get sent on too many dangerous missions. And despite the 
fact that she gets to kick a little butt later in the book, I assume 
that DD wants her to stay safe for some reason. Anyway, just IMHO. 
Meri 




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Mar  1 20:21:46 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 20:21:46 -0000
Subject: Cedric and Pettigrew
In-Reply-To: <001501c3ffc4$da19c260$5c4e6751@f3b7j4>
Message-ID: <c2060q+lg8h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91865




Carol wrote:
> > At any rate, Snape's behavior throughout PoA indicates that he, 
like
> > Dumbledore himself, thought that Sirius was the Secret 
Keeper/traitor
> > and the murderer of twelve Muggles--a very dangerous man from 
whom all
> > of the students, and Harry in particular, needed to be protected.


Ffred wrote:
>> But remembering that Sirius was James's sidekick and Snape's 
>>tormentor, why
> >clear his name? Especially as doing so at that point would raise 
>>enormous
>> questions about why he hadn't done so 10 years before!



Potioncat here, and I hope I correctly identified the writers in the 
above posts.

I think that Snape believed Black was the traitor all those years ago 
and that Lupin is helping him now.(Shrieking Shack moment)  What I 
find confusing, is that Black said that when he was in Azkaban, he  
heard all the DE's screaming about Pettigrew doublecrossing them.  
So, if that is true, the DE's in Azkaban knew about Peter.  Why 
didn't Snape know? Or if it isn't true, why is Black saying it?  

I hope all this wasn't brought up in earlier versions of this thread 
and if it was, I apologise.  I also apologise for errors caused by 
rushing as a child calls for me in the background.
Potioncat
> 




From psychobirdgirl at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  1 20:30:14 2004
From: psychobirdgirl at yahoo.com (psychobirdgirl)
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 20:30:14 -0000
Subject: Snape as a Spy-the one who left forever
In-Reply-To: <c1vkr0+utl3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c206gm+npk8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91866

What if it was just a statement, not a threat?  When he was talking 
about the one who left him forever, who would be punished, maybe it 
was just a statement about Crouch risking his life in his service 
and Voldemort knew he would die, so he would be gone from them 
forever, but also he would be punished (captured and "kissed"). So 
that could leave Snape to be the loyal one at Hogwarts.

Just another option

psychobirdgirl




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Mar  1 21:43:13 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 21:43:13 -0000
Subject: Cedric and Pettigrew
In-Reply-To: <001501c3ffc4$da19c260$5c4e6751@f3b7j4>
Message-ID: <c20aph+77sv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91867

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "manawydan" 
<manawydan at n...> wrote:

> We know that Peter was a spy for Voldemort well before he 
became the secret keeper.<

No. We know there was *a* spy for Voldemort well before Peter 
became the Secret Keeper. Sirius  accuses Peter of passing 
information to Voldemort for a year before, but this is never 
confirmed.

I put forward an alternate scenario: James, who doesn't want to 
believe that any of his friends are spies, tells ESE!Lupin about 
the secret-keeper switch. Lupin runs along to Voldemort, who 
captures Peter and bullies him into giving up the secret.

I believe that Snape thought that Sirius was the spy and that he 
tried to warn James. That was why Snape reacted with such 
horror to the idea that Sirius had not been the secret-keeper. He 
was thinking that James had switched on his information.

Fred:
> We _don't_ know when exactly Snape went to Dumbledore, 
just that he faced grave personal risk in doing so.
> 
> We know that Snape hated James Potter.
> 
> And it's a believable assumption that Snape was one of the 
"absent" DEs inthe graveyard scene, thereby having been one of 
Voldemort's inner circle.<<

Pippin:
Since Snape has the Dark Mark and felt the summons, I'd say it's 
more than an assumption.

Fred:
> I put all of those together to assume that:
> 
> Peter is made secret keeper. He runs along to the Dark Lord, 
does a little dance of glee and tells him that he knows where the 
Potters are hiding. Voldemort rubs his hands together, twiddles 
his moustaches, etc, and decides that Peter will take him there. 
As a special treat, he tells Snape to come too, to see his enemy 
get fried.<<

But Snape was already Dumbledore's agent at that point. "He 
rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort's downfall and turned 
spy for us at great personal risk. " There would have been no 
chance for Snape to return to LV as a spy if he came over the 
night of the Potters' demise.

 And Dumbledore would have known from Snape's account that 
Peter was the Secret-keeper, for only the secret keeper can give 
the secret away.  

Pippin




From jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net  Mon Mar  1 21:53:14 2004
From: jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net (Robert Jones)
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 21:53:14 -0000
Subject: Time Travel and Chuck Berry
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20040228005319.02c8f7e0@pop3.norton.antivirus>
Message-ID: <c20bcb+p52q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91868

Troels Forchhammer in post 91756 responded to how my question of how 
time-traveling Harry could produce a Patronus:
> 
> Harry had seen himself do it - once he realised that the person
> he saw by the lake was himself, he also knew with absolute 
certainty
> that he had indeed seen himself cast the Patronus Charm.
> 
Bobby:
I still do not understand.  At first, both old Harry (Harry1) and 
time-traveling Harry (Harry2) do not have the confidence to produce 
a Patronus.  He (Harry1) does not realize that he (Harry2) produced 
it.  At first time-traveling Harry (Harry2) does not have confidence 
either, but he has time to realize that he (Harry1) saw him (Harry2) 
produce a Patronus, and so he (Harry2) now has the confidence to do 
it.  But this is like the Chuck Berry paradox from the movie "Back 
to the Future" where the Michael J. Fox character learns Chuck 
Berry's guitar licks off Chuck's records but then teaches Chuck 
those same licks over the telephone ? so Fox learns the licks from 
Berry who learns them from Fox, and so on, and so on.  In effect the 
earlier Chuck Berry learns his licks from the future Chuck Berry.  
So there is no point in this loop for Chuck to actually create the 
licks.  And the same problem applies to Harry: Harry2 can make a 
Patronus because Harry1 saw him already do it because Harry2 did it 
because Harry1 saw . . .  At no point in the loop can Harry2 gain 
the confidence to produce the Patronus.


Second, Troels Forchhammer responded to me saying that JKR permits 
time-travelers to change history:

> I prefer to believe Hermione's information wrong rather than accept
> an internal inconsistency (allowing changes to the past would 
create plot-holes large enough to pass not only Hannibal and his 
elephants through, but the Alps as well). That is merely a matter of 
personal
> priority.

Bobby:  But my point is that JKR accepts that time-travelers can 
change history and so if she uses it again she can do whatever she 
wants to the plot (and that makes it a crumby plot device).




From jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net  Mon Mar  1 21:57:17 2004
From: jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net (Robert Jones)
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 21:57:17 -0000
Subject: Why Astronomy?
Message-ID: <c20bjt+b06u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91869

Why do the Hogwarts students study astronomy?  It can't be just for 
Divination because Hermione is not taking Divination but is taking 
astronomy.

They don't take biology for the Healers or chemistry to help with 
Potions -- so why astronomy?




From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Mon Mar  1 22:25:23 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 22:25:23 -0000
Subject: Fidelius, Surveillance, Means of Communication
In-Reply-To: <c202e3+o7cs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c20d8j+djrp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91870

Snip of great posts from Pet and Annemehr

How 'bout the portrait being of golden snitch inventor Bowman 
Wright?  
snip> 

Siriusly Snapey Susan

How about the "corpulent red nosed wizard" former Head Master of 
Hogwarts and obvious supporter of Dumbledore.  For that matter it 
could be Dilys or Everard.  It could have been almost any portrait on 
loan from Hogwarts with a second portrait of the same person 
available to be kept at the school in Dumbledore's office.  

Where is the Potter's "mannor"?  Who in Harry's family has had a 
portrait done, there has to be *someone*....  

Ooh! The questions revolve and revolve!

Desperately seeking book 6 (and praying it contains back history),
Sue




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Mar  1 22:55:50 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 22:55:50 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 13 (Detention with Dolores)
In-Reply-To: <03be01c3ff37$6f097200$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01>
Message-ID: <c20f1m+6sk2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91871

Thanks, Penny for the summary and thought-provoking 
questions. I'm glad you dropped in :-)

1.  This is one of the first signs of how Ron will handle his
responsibilities as prefect.  Do you think it was merely his family
relationship with the Twins that kept him from being a 
rules-enforcer withHermione or would he have shirked his 
responsibilities if it had been Seamusand Dean doing 
something questionable or something that clearly broke a
school rule?  Do you think Harry might have taken his prefect 
duties any more seriously than Ron did?


A>I don't think Harry would have had any better luck disciplining 
the twins.  He certainly wouldn't have thought of grassing on 
them to Molly. I don't think it's fair to say that Ron didn't take
his prefect duties seriously. There doesn't seem to be any  
breakdown of order in Gryffindor House, aside from the 
twins--and the previous prefects never made much headway 
with this kind of thing either. Canary creams come to mind, not to 
mention the brisk trade in illegal charms during the monster 
scare in  CoS. And aren't there sixth and seventh year prefects? 
What were they, next door neighbors? <g> If Hermione really 
needed help, why didn't she ask them?

2.  What do you think about Hermione's attempt to trick the house 
elves intopicking up clothing that will set them free?  Do you 
agree with Ron that"they should at least see what they're picking 
up?"

A>This is the same sort of manipulative behavior that got 
Hermione into trouble with the centaurs at the end of the book. 
The question is, has she seen the light now, or is it going to get 
her into still more hot water?

3.  This is one of several instances where Seamus seems to be 
trying to talkto Harry.  As in other cases, Harry often doesn't want 
to take the troubleand/or risk the confrontation that might occur if 
he encouraged an antagonist to discuss things with him.  You 
may recall that Rowling usedsimilar language to signal that Ron 
might have been amenable to making it upwith Harry sooner, but 
Harry's stubborn pride and unwillingness to engage in
anything emotionally "messy" always gets in the way.  Do you 
think it isstubborn pride, emotional distance or perhaps inner 
protectiveness thatcauses Harry to react this way?

A>All three. Under stress, Harry tends to revert to the behavior he 
needed to survive the Dursleys--stay in his room, make no 
noise, and pretend he's not there.

4.  On first read, did you guess what Ron was up to (practicing 
for theKeeper tryouts)?

A>I did. In fact, I'm surprised anyone missed it.  Asking for a new 
broomstick was a pretty big hint. Harry would've guessed too, if 
he weren't so pre-occupied.

5.  Is it possible that Harry was really there for 7 *hours* writing 
linesthat cut into his own hand, or is this another case of 
Rowling not being very good with time details?

A>I think this is her heightened style-- many things are  
exaggerated in the Potterverse. At another place in the book 
Fudge jumps so much in surprise that his feet leave the floor. 
It's also characteristic of the Potterverse  that  painful injuries 
occur often while the potential for lasting damage is seldom 
realized, barring a scar or two. For some reason this is more a 
concern with  cruelty than  violence. People often wonder why 
Hogwarts allows such sadistic teachers, but they never seem to 
worry that a Bludger  could kill someone.  <g>. 


6.  Was Harry wrong to fail to alert even one Hogwarts professor 
about whatwas going on with Umbridge's detentions?  He 
probably didn't know the extentof her power at that exact point in 
time, so it was more likely Harry'sdistrust of adults and authority 
figures (and dislike of "showing weakness")that prompted his 
decision to stoically bear his ordeal and stay silent.
Even Ron thinks Harry's desire to avoid having Umbridge know 
that she "got to him" is ridiculous, as he urges him to report the 
incidents to McGonagall or Dumbledore.

A>Yup. See answer to question 3. But Harry may have a point. 
Umbridge would only come up with something more vile and 
perfecty legal. And  waaay back in Book One Hagrid has an 
exchange with Draco that suggests refusing a detention will get 
you expelled. 

7.  Does Ron have reason to think Harry would laugh at the idea 
of himtrying out for Keeper (i.e., is he a bad Quidditch player in 
general), or isthis just Ron's lack of confidence manifesting itself 
rather plainly?  Do you think the Twins play an especially strong 
role in Ron's self-esteem issues?  He seems to be particularly 
sensitive to their jibes and avoids giving them reason to bother 
him.

A>Ron doesn't really know what he can do. He's only had that 
dreadful broom to practice on, aside from the times when Harry 
let him borrow the Nimbus or the Firebolt. That he could manage 
the Keeper post when Charlie and the Twins were practicing 
during holidays on such a dismal mount is a pretty good 
indication of skill.

8.  Were you convinced by Hermione's explanation that maybe it 
was coincidence that Harry's scar hurt when Umbridge touched 
him?  Is Hermione right so often in OoP that it might be a red 
herring in later books?

A>It's a red herring in *this* book. She's right about the 
coincidence, but she's wrong about what it means.  What Harry 
felt was Voldemort's surge of happiness over  the sentencing of 
Sturgis Podmore. Combined with Voldemort's anger when 
Podmore was caught,  it means Podmore was not set up by the 
MoM as Hermione supposed. It's too soon for her to realize that 
there's a traitor in the Order, of course. Mwahahaha!

9.  Shipping question (of course!): what do you make of the fact 
thatHermione seems anxious to get off to bed on a night when 
Ron will clearlywanting to be celebrating and might even have 
confidence enough to make aromantic gesture towards her?  If 
she knows he likes her and she likes himback, why would she 
not take the chance to be alone with him when he's in
the best spirits ever before (and instead asks Harry to join her in 
knittingthe next day, looking "disappointed" at his answer)?  <g>

A>Ahhh, hope springs eternal...but she fell asleep in her chair in 
the first place because she was forcing herself to stay up so as 
not to be rude to Ron...if not for him, she'd have gone to bed 
already. :-)

Pippin




From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net  Mon Mar  1 23:00:54 2004
From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 17:00:54 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why Astronomy?
References: <c20bjt+b06u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000b01c3ffe1$0d7b1340$05030f04@dslverizon.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 91872

{Robert}

Why do the Hogwarts students study astronomy?  It can't be just for
Divination because Hermione is not taking Divination but is taking
astronomy.

They don't take biology for the Healers or chemistry to help with Potions --
so why astronomy?


{Anne}

Well, a lot of ritualistic spells may need to be done on certain nights when
planets and stars are in certain positions. Also, in folklore, many herbs
cannot be picked unless certain astronomical events are met (Such as picking
Holly on a wintery full moon night for the best potency). Then there's
certain beasts that are affected by the heavenly bodies (Like Remus during
full moon). A lot of 'old' folkloric magic is dependent on such factors--and
although Rowling flubs the details often enough, she does stick to the
generalities. So my guess would be that young wizards and witches need to
know what's going on in the heavens for spell work and potions/herbalism
gathering as well as divination.

It probably also ties into Arithmancy ('Magical' math) for the wizarding
version of Physics...something I can see Hermione very much getting
into...^^

Anne





From annemehr at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  1 23:14:10 2004
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 23:14:10 -0000
Subject: Who was on duty?
In-Reply-To: <c1tp7u+e546@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c20g42+k04v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91873

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "capehoneysuckle"
<capehoneysuckle at e...> wrote:

Honey:
> When Harry and Co. arrive at the MOM to save Sirius, the security desk
> is deserted.<snip>
What happened to Eric Munch or his
> co-worker? A member of the OOP should have been on-duty at the door of
> the DoM as well. What happened to him or her?

Annemehr:
As for MoM security, I don't know how the DEs cleared them out of the
way, but we do know there are at least three DEs with experience with
the MoM: Rookwood, the ex-Unspeakable; Macnair, who was with the Dept.
for the Disposal of Dangerous Creatures; and Malfoy, who was around
all the time although he didn't work there.  They would have been able
to work out a plan, I'm sure.

I'm not at all sure that there was a guard from the Order there at
night anymore.  Their cover was blown with Voldemort and nearly with
the MoM, too.  First Sturgis Podmore was presumably Imperioed into
trying to steal the prophecy for Voldemort, and later Arthur Weasley
was attacked by the Volde!Snake, which could see through the
invisibility cloak, by the way.  I think that's why Dumbledore was so
adamant that Harry learn Occlumency -- because he could no longer
prevent Harry's entry into the DoM by stationing a guard there.

'Course, I could be wrong!  ;-)

Annemehr






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  1 23:23:01 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 23:23:01 -0000
Subject: Where is Pettigrew?
In-Reply-To: <c1rv0k+to02@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c20gkl+jaik@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91874

> > Ravenclaw Bookworm:
> 
> Why the old Black mansion is a lovely place to hide and wait! Who 
> would know better how to find his best friend's house and even sneak 
> in.  After all, there was no need for a secret keeper until the Order 
> moved in. "...Kreacher had made himself something that looked like a 
> nest.  A jumble of assorted rags and smelly old blankets were piled 
> on the floor and the small dent in the middle of it showed where 
> Kreacher curled up to sleep every night.  Here and there among the 
> material were stale bread crusts and moldy old bits of cheese." (US 
> ed. 504)  Sounds like the perfect place for 2 rats to share.
> 
> BTW, I realize Sirius would recognize Peter IF he saw him and that a 
> rat with a silver hand would stand out a bit.  We do not yet know the 
> properties of that hand.
> 
> "Harry heard something scuttling behind the baseboards" (US ed 61)


Carol:
Isn't the house hidden now that it's the Order's headquarters? So even
if he (like the former Black sisters) knows where it used to be, he
couldn't see it or enter it now? We haven't really finished exploring
the possibilities and impossibilities involved there, but I don't
think he'd be able to see it or enter it. Still, though, that
"scuttling" quotation is suggestive.

As for the silver paw, maybe human traits, including replacements for
body parts, might disappear during transformation just as clothing
does. If, for example, Mad Eye Moody were an animagus and could
transform himself into, say, a bear, would that bear have a rolling
eye and an artificial leg, conveniently furnished with a clawed foot,
or would he be a three-legged, one-eyed bear? I think he'd lose the
false eye and false leg. If I'm correct, Scabbers the rat wouldn't
have a silver paw, he'd just be an injured rat forced to scamper
through the sewers on three paws.

Carol




From stevejjen at earthlink.net  Mon Mar  1 23:39:13 2004
From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese)
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 23:39:13 -0000
Subject: Fidelius, Surveillance, Means of Communication
In-Reply-To: <c20d8j+djrp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c20hj1+7cev@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91875

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "suehpfan" <stanleys at s...> 
wrote:
> Snip of great posts from Pet and Annemehr
> 
> How 'bout the portrait being of golden snitch inventor Bowman 
> Wright?  
> snip> 
> 
> Siriusly Snapey Susan
> 
> How about the "corpulent red nosed wizard" former Head Master of 
> Hogwarts and obvious supporter of Dumbledore.  For that matter it 
> could be Dilys or Everard.  It could have been almost any portrait 
on 
> loan from Hogwarts with a second portrait of the same person 
> available to be kept at the school in Dumbledore's office.  

Jen: I'd love to find out one of the headmaster/headmistress 
portraits in DD's office is a Potter! Wouldn't that be interesting? 
Of course, that begs the question of why the heck DD never mentioned 
this to Harry, but then...what can anyone possibly say to that? Not 
giving out information seems to be the hobby of most of the WW 
except the people you don't care to hear from, i.e. Fudge, Skeeter, 
Draco, etc. Anyway, very original thought, Pet. Welcome!

Jen, thinking Susan's idea of the Quidditch hero portrait actually 
fits in better with the story.




From annemehr at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  1 23:50:23 2004
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 23:50:23 -0000
Subject: In the beginning
In-Reply-To: <2C691372-6AEA-11D8-BDA3-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com>
Message-ID: <c20i7v+ae00@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91876

Kneasy, while setting up his "When Volde Slurped Harry" theory:
> 
> Harry's earliest memories are vague scenes involving a green flash and 
> Lily's voice and they  usually occur at times of great stress. It is 
> generally  accepted that this flash is the AK that killed Lily. ("Get 
> out of the way, girl.) But since AKs have to be
> specifically aimed, there should have been *two* green flashes; the 
> second
> being the one that gave him the scar and rebounded to destroy Voldy. But
> what if there were only one? What would that mean?

Annemehr:

I like the plot you propose, and I too wonder how a rebounded AK could
transfer anything from Voldemort to Harry.  I'm also quite sure we
know very little of what actually happened that night.  But, I just
found the passage that I always assumed referred to Voldemort's
attempt to AK Harry.  It's at the end of PS/SS ch. 2, when Harry is
trying to remember the "car crash" that killed his parents and gave
him his scar:

"Sometimes, when he strained his memory during long hours in his
cupboard, he came up with a strange vision: a blinding flash of green
light and a burning pain on his forehead.  This, he supposed, was the
crash, though he couldn't imagine where all the green light came from."

Harry having mentioned his dreams about flying motorcycles earlier in
the chapter establishes that he does indeed have some memory of that
time, so I am inclined to trust this vision.  To me, a "blinding
flash" of green light has to be Avada Kedavra headed straight for your
head; otherwise it's merely a jet of light.  Besides, the pain in his
forehead is associated with it.

In PoA, when the dementors and boggart!dementors are around, there are
only sounds; I can't find any reference to green light.  Besides, when
Lily took Harry and ran with him that night, I can easily imagine that
she put him in his room and shut the door, and stood outside to face
Voldemort.  There's nothing in the books that says Harry saw her death
at all.

So, I can't get around it.  The green light is associated with the
pain in Harry's forehead and the scar, and the scar is associated with
the connection to LV.

One loophole left, though, maybe!  Okay, so the AK rebounds and
unbodies Voldemort.  Though I doubted it before, Phil (congusinglyso)
could still be right that the SuddenlyVapor!Mort tried to possess
Harry; except that rather than Hagrid taking Harry!Mort to be
separated, Voldemort found himself repelled right away, by means of
the new scar, leaving a bit of himself behind in Harry.

Could be, could be.  I won't bet the house, though!  ;-)

Annemehr
just playing around






From annemehr at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  2 00:12:57 2004
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 00:12:57 -0000
Subject: Where is Pettigrew?
In-Reply-To: <c20gkl+jaik@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c20ji9+cvp3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91877


> > > Ravenclaw Bookworm:
> > 
> > Why the old Black mansion is a lovely place to hide and wait! Who 
> > would know better how to find his best friend's house and even sneak 
> > in.  After all, there was no need for a secret keeper until the Order 
> > moved in.
<snip>
> > 
> > "Harry heard something scuttling behind the baseboards" (US ed 61)


> Carol:
> Isn't the house hidden now that it's the Order's headquarters? So even
> if he (like the former Black sisters) knows where it used to be, he
> couldn't see it or enter it now? We haven't really finished exploring
> the possibilities and impossibilities involved there, but I don't
> think he'd be able to see it or enter it. Still, though, that
> "scuttling" quotation is suggestive.

Annemehr:
It depends on the timing, maybe.  At the end of GoF, Dumbledore told
Sirius to alert the "old crowd" and then lie low at Lupin's for a
while.  How long is a while?  Not long, probably, judging by OoP, but
probably long enough for Wormtail to get into the Black house before
the Order moved in.

Suppose Wormtail had got in first.  Would he then be able to get in
and out even after the Fidelius charm was cast?  Or is he stuck there
because once out, he couldn't find it again?  Kreacher gets in and
out; does anyone think Dumbledore *told* him the secret?  I doubt it.

The idea that Wormtail is what Harry heard scuttling behind the
baseboards is deliciously chilling!

Annemehr
who's now wondering if Crookshanks will catch his rat after all






From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Tue Mar  2 00:31:36 2004
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 00:31:36 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 13 (Detention with Dolores)
In-Reply-To: <03be01c3ff37$6f097200$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01>
Message-ID: <c20kl8+pg7v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91878

Hi, Penny!

Nice questions!

> Surfacing only briefly from lurkdom probably ...... but here to 
give the
> Chapter 13 summary and provide some questions for discussion.  :--)

> QUESTIONS
> 
> 1.  This is one of the first signs of how Ron will handle his
> responsibilities as prefect.  Do you think it was merely his family
> relationship with the Twins that kept him from being a rules-
enforcer with
> Hermione or would he have shirked his responsibilities if it had 
been Seamus
> and Dean doing something questionable or something that clearly 
broke a
> school rule?  Do you think Harry might have taken his prefect 
duties any
> more seriously than Ron did?

I agree with those who saw this as beyond Ron and, but for her 
personal knowledge of Molly, Hermione.  One suspects that most 
prefects confronted with older pupils misbehaving would quietly 
leave it in the hope that the teachers would pick up on it.  I don't 
know about boarding schools, but I think the way that teachers at 
Hogwarts only enter the common room or dormitories in emergencies is 
very unusual.

> 2.  What do you think about Hermione's attempt to trick the house 
elves into
> picking up clothing that will set them free?  Do you agree with 
Ron that
> "they should at least see what they're picking up?"

Yes, I do agree with Ron on this.

I think Hermoine's behaviour is odd.  It's not just manipulative, 
it's *ineffectively* manipulative and, at first sight, her lack of 
interest in whether her trick is working seems very un-
Hermionelike.  The effect on me is to make me wonder if she just got 
lucky with some of her supposed successes in OOP.  As if she has 
three or four templated behaviours that work well in the situations 
she has encountered, but hasn't learnt when not to use them.  One 
wonders, for instance, what the other members of the DA would have 
thought if they'd found out she'd cast a latent curse on them: not 
only was it without their knowledge but how would, say, Ginny feel 
about whether she's trusted or not?

> 3.  This is one of several instances where Seamus seems to be 
trying to talk
> to Harry.  As in other cases, Harry often doesn't want to take the 
trouble
> and/or risk the confrontation that might occur if he encouraged an
> antagonist to discuss things with him.  You may recall that 
Rowling used
> similar language to signal that Ron might have been amenable to 
making it up
> with Harry sooner, but Harry's stubborn pride and unwillingness to 
engage in
> anything emotionally "messy" always gets in the way.  Do you think 
it is
> stubborn pride, emotional distance or perhaps inner protectiveness 
that
> causes Harry to react this way?

Hmm.  As others have said, all the above, but I'd add that for 
British children all that is culturally built in.  I never had to 
endure anything like Umbridge but I'm pretty sure I would have had 
the same response, and I think a great many kids would more or less 
expect that.  Indeed, at 45, it's a great effort for me to adopt any 
other attitude now when faced with any sort of trouble or difficulty 
and I still don't think I'm untypical.

> 4.  On first read, did you guess what Ron was up to (practicing 
for the
> Keeper tryouts)?

I can't remember.  I don't think so.  I suspect what was going on 
was that I intuited somehow this was not a puzzle of great plot 
significance, and lazily assumed the best way to find out was to 
read on.  I'm a very passive reader, so would only have tried to 
work it out had I been interrupted between puzzle and solution.

> 5.  Is it possible that Harry was really there for 7 *hours* 
writing lines
> that cut into his own hand, or is this another case of Rowling not 
being
> very good with time details?

I don't really know how to answer this.  I feel the answer is 
either, 'Yes, it's canon, so it must have been possible' or 'No, 
it's fiction, and none of it happened.'  In other words, we don't 
have any sound criteria for defining 'possibility' in a fictional 
universe (especially a magical one) excerpt the author's assertions. 
It feels to me like asking whether love is purple.
 
> 6.  Was Harry wrong to fail to alert even one Hogwarts professor 
about what
> was going on with Umbridge's detentions?  He probably didn't know 
the extent
> of her power at that exact point in time, so it was more likely 
Harry's
> distrust of adults and authority figures (and dislike of "showing 
weakness")
> that prompted his decision to stoically bear his ordeal and stay 
silent.
> Even Ron thinks Harry's desire to avoid having Umbridge know that 
she "got
> to him" is ridiculous, as he urges him to report the incidents to 
McGonagall
> or Dumbledore.

I can't remember the time sequence now, but McGonagall is not really 
very inviting of confidence in her discussions of Umbridge with 
Harry.  Again, culture: you are on your own.

> 7.  Does Ron have reason to think Harry would laugh at the idea of 
him
> trying out for Keeper (i.e., is he a bad Quidditch player in 
general), or is
> this just Ron's lack of confidence manifesting itself rather 
plainly?  Do
> you think the Twins play an especially strong role in Ron's self-
esteem
> issues?  He seems to be particularly sensitive to their jibes and 
avoids
> giving them reason to bother him.

There is later evidence in the way he improves after they leave.  Of 
course Ron should know that Harry would not laugh at him.  However, 
remember when, in POA, Neville innocently tells (or was overheard 
by) Draco that Harry fainted on the train, and Draco mocks Harry in 
consequence.  Harry has rather more sense to keep quiet, but I think 
Ron's general caution is understandable.

Also, Ron probably doesn't have objective evidence of his ability 
until Angelina selects him, and could reason that if Harry or 
Hermione thought him a bad player they would never have said so.
 
> 8.  Were you convinced by Hermione's explanation that maybe it was
> coincidence that Harry's scar hurt when Umbridge touched him?  Is 
Hermione
> right so often in OoP that it might be a red herring in later 
books?

At the time I kept an open mind.  I'm still not completely sure, 
because it may be that Harry's scar becomes more active (and so 
channels Voldemortian emotion more strongly) whenever his defensive 
instincts are aroused.

> 9.  Shipping question (of course!): what do you make of the fact 
that
> Hermione seems anxious to get off to bed on a night when Ron will 
clearly
> wanting to be celebrating and might even have confidence enough to 
make a
> romantic gesture towards her?  If she knows he likes her and she 
likes him
> back, why would she not take the chance to be alone with him when 
he's in
> the best spirits ever before (and instead asks Harry to join her 
in knitting
> the next day, looking "disappointed" at his answer)?  <g>

I agree with those who have said the three are chiefly occupied with 
their own concerns.  Does this rule out the possibility of romantic 
feelings for the time being?  It is of course novelistic convention 
that being in love - or liking and being liked back - trumps all 
other considerations, but is this realistic?

David




From nkafkafi at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  2 01:08:53 2004
From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 01:08:53 -0000
Subject: Time Travel and Chuck Berry
In-Reply-To: <c20bcb+p52q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c20mr5+nri1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91879

"Robert Jones" wrote:
Troels Forchhammer in post 91756 responded to how my question of how
time-traveling Harry could produce a Patronus:
>
> Harry had seen himself do it - once he realised that the person
> he saw by the lake was himself, he also knew with absolute
certainty
> that he had indeed seen himself cast the Patronus Charm.
>
Bobby:
I still do not understand. At first, both old Harry (Harry1) and
time-traveling Harry (Harry2) do not have the confidence to produce
a Patronus. He (Harry1) does not realize that he (Harry2) produced
it. At first time-traveling Harry (Harry2) does not have confidence
either, but he has time to realize that he (Harry1) saw him (Harry2)
produce a Patronus, and so he (Harry2) now has the confidence to do
it. But this is like the Chuck Berry paradox from the movie "Back
to the Future" where the Michael J. Fox character learns Chuck
Berry's guitar licks off Chuck's records but then teaches Chuck
those same licks over the telephone ? so Fox learns the licks from
Berry who learns them from Fox, and so on, and so on. In effect the
earlier Chuck Berry learns his licks from the future Chuck Berry.
So there is no point in this loop for Chuck to actually create the
licks. And the same problem applies to Harry: Harry2 can make a
Patronus because Harry1 saw him already do it because Harry2 did it
because Harry1 saw . . . At no point in the loop can Harry2 gain
the confidence to produce the Patronus.

Neri:
Yes, you got everything exactly right. I couldn't have explained it 
better. Now all is left for you to do is realize that if every step 
is consistent, then the whole loop, however weird, must be correct 
also. This is how mathematical proofs and magic work.

This is very much like the Mobius strip (if you are not familiar with 
this old trick, go to http://scidiv.bcc.ctc.edu/Math/Mobius.html). 
You know it has only one side, although it sounds weird and you can 
just *see* that it has two sides, but you'll find you can draw a line 
from any point on one side to any point on the "other" side, without 
taking the pen off the paper or going over anedge. So there must be 
only one side, however strange it seems.

"Robert Jones" wrote:

Second, Troels Forchhammer responded to me saying that JKR permits
time-travelers to change history:

> I prefer to believe Hermione's information wrong rather than accept
> an internal inconsistency (allowing changes to the past would
create plot-holes large enough to pass not only Hannibal and his
elephants through, but the Alps as well). That is merely a matter of
personal
> priority.

Bobby: But my point is that JKR accepts that time-travelers can
change history and so if she uses it again she can do whatever she
wants to the plot (and that makes it a crumby plot device).

Neri:
She still has to be consistent, or we will all throw the book in 
disgust. It is actually possible to change history and remain 
consistent (that is, no paradoxes or plot holes) but it is very, very 
difficult. Time-travel is not a trick that enables the author to do 
everything with the plot. It actually makes plotting much harder than 
usual. See #88636 and #88794 for my detailed discussion and some 
weird-but-consistent examples.

Neri





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  2 01:25:00 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 01:25:00 -0000
Subject: Rats at Hogwarts (was Cedric and Pettigrew)
In-Reply-To: <c1u0jl+78jn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c20npc+g7jv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91880

Elihu:
Maybe because the Weasleys were on close terms with Dumbledore, 
they got special permission to allow their son to bring a rat of 
theirs to school. Dumbledore didn't know that this rat is a problem 
until shortly before Percy graduated.
 
Chelle: 
That's on the First years list. In the first book Lee Jordan, a third
> year is bringing his pet tarantula to Hogwarts. Maybe the school wants
> them to get settled and the idea of what type of environment they're
> supposed to be living in before they decide to bring in a complicated
> pet. I would guess, having a tarantula of my own they would have had
> to rearrange the boys dorm for that year to accomidate Lee's pet.
> It would have had to be something Lee felt comfortable with his year
> mates about. 
> Could you imagine arriving your first year terrified of spiders and
> your roomate springs a giant tarantula on you? Cats, toads, and owls
> are pretty safe.
> 

Carol:
Actually, rats are pretty safe, too, much more intelligent and docile
than many people give them credit for being. I see no reason why
Dumbledore would not have allowed a silent exception to the general
rule of which kinds of pets would be allowed for the Weasleys, who
didn't have a large income. And he would have made the exception
twice, once for Percy as a first-year (he would have acquired Scabbers
when he was about five) and again for Ron as a first-year (Percy gave
Scabbers to Ron after he was rewarded for becoming a prefect by being
given his own owl, Hermes).

I don't think that the rule about having a toad OR a cat OR an owl is
absolute in terms of the animals allowed (neither Lee's tarantula nor
Scabbers is shipped back home by the nearest owl). I think it's the
"OR" that's important (and consequently capitalized and repeated):
they're allowed just one animal. I also think that the list includes
the most common and popular pets. If I were DD, I'd have strong
reservations about pet bats and I'd definitely ban dogs, but as long
as the tarantula is kept in his box (and is not an acromantula in
disguise) and the rat spends most of his time in a boy's pocket, I
can't see any reason to make a fuss. Some rules are absolute (you
don't enter the Forbidden Forest without permission) and others are
flexible. If McGonagall can bend the rule about first-years not having
their own brooms, Dumbledore can certainly allow first Percy and then
Ron a pet rat.

Carol




From jmmears at comcast.net  Tue Mar  2 02:04:33 2004
From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 02:04:33 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 13 (Detention with Dolores)
In-Reply-To: <03be01c3ff37$6f097200$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01>
Message-ID: <c20q3h+tlo6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91881

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pennylin" <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:

 
> QUESTIONS
> 
> 1.  This is one of the first signs of how Ron will handle his
> responsibilities as prefect.  Do you think it was merely his family
> relationship with the Twins that kept him from being a rules-
enforcer with
> Hermione or would he have shirked his responsibilities if it had 
been Seamus
> and Dean doing something questionable or something that clearly 
broke a
> school rule?  Do you think Harry might have taken his prefect 
duties any
> more seriously than Ron did?


Actually I think that Harry was far too distracted by his own 
problems to have been very effective as a prefect during his fifth 
year.  Also, considering that Harry usually heartily approves of the 
twins hi-jinks (and of course, he's really sponsoring them), he'd 
have been unlikely to want to give the twins a hard time for doing a 
bit of product development research.  Added to all this is Harry's 
concern with maintaining Fred and George's respect (remember in GoF 
when he worries that the twins will think he's "losing his nerve" if 
he complains about his scar pain?), and he'd likely be even less 
motivated to tell them off than Ron is.

As for Ron, he has no trouble pulling rank on Seamus and putting him 
in his place when he's fighting with Harry.  It's only with his out-
of-control older brothers that he avoids confrontation in carrying 
out his duties.  After all, Hermione is only effective in stopping 
the twins' antics when she threatens to tell their mother.  Can 
anyone imagine what would have happened to Ron if he'd tried that 
approach? ::shudders::



 
> 2.  What do you think about Hermione's attempt to trick the house 
elves into
> picking up clothing that will set them free?  Do you agree with 
Ron that
> "they should at least see what they're picking up?"


I think that her zeal for her SPEW project has overcome any sense of 
fair play in this case.  I agree with the earlier poster who said 
that it's odd that Hermione doesn't seem to really have studied the 
house elves, and she just assumes that they will be freed if they 
pick up the hats she's leaving around.  I don't think that they 
actually would be freed if they did pick them up based on what we 
learned in CoS when Harry tricks Mr. Malfoy into freeing Dobby.  The 
only thing Hermione actually accomplishes is to gravely insult the 
elves who are already unhappy with her, so yes I do agree with Ron 
in this case. 

> 3.  This is one of several instances where Seamus seems to be 
trying to talk
> to Harry.  As in other cases, Harry often doesn't want to take the 
trouble
> and/or risk the confrontation that might occur if he encouraged an
> antagonist to discuss things with him.  You may recall that 
Rowling used
> similar language to signal that Ron might have been amenable to 
making it up
> with Harry sooner, but Harry's stubborn pride and unwillingness to 
engage in
> anything emotionally "messy" always gets in the way.  Do you think 
it is
> stubborn pride, emotional distance or perhaps inner protectiveness 
that
> causes Harry to react this way?

In this particular case, I think that it's mainly stubborn pride 
that causes him to react the way he does to Seamus.  He plainly 
doesn't want to talk about what happened when Cedric was killed, but 
he has shared a dorm with Seamus for 4 years at this point, and 
could probably avoided the whole ugly fight and subsequesnt chilly 
relations for most of the year if only he'd sat down and told the 
story to all the Gryffindore boys in his year.
  
> 
> 4.  On first read, did you guess what Ron was up to (practicing 
for the
> Keeper tryouts)?


Good question.  I think that I did guess what he was doing because 
of all the OOP spoilers published in May and June concerning Ron 
being on the Quidditch team.  I'm not sure I'd have caught on 
otherwise.


> 
> 5.  Is it possible that Harry was really there for 7 *hours* 
writing lines
> that cut into his own hand, or is this another case of Rowling not 
being
> very good with time details?


I suppose it is just possible, but honestly I think that JKR is once 
again revealing her lack of numerical skills ;-).


> 6.  Was Harry wrong to fail to alert even one Hogwarts professor 
about what
> was going on with Umbridge's detentions?  He probably didn't know 
the extent
> of her power at that exact point in time, so it was more likely 
Harry's
> distrust of adults and authority figures (and dislike of "showing 
weakness")
> that prompted his decision to stoically bear his ordeal and stay 
silent.
> Even Ron thinks Harry's desire to avoid having Umbridge know that 
she "got
> to him" is ridiculous, as he urges him to report the incidents to 
McGonagall
> or Dumbledore.


Again, we see a lot of Harry's stubborn pride right from the 
beginning of OOP, although his distrust of adults and authority 
figures surely plays a part in his failure to report his detention-
torture.  However, I also believe that his reaction to Umbridges' 
treatment is consistent with the Hogwarts culture, since we don't 
see any evidence of Lee Jordan's filing a complaint when he gets the 
same treatment later in the book.  Maybe it's a "wizard-guy thing".



> 7.  Does Ron have reason to think Harry would laugh at the idea of 
him
> trying out for Keeper (i.e., is he a bad Quidditch player in 
general), or is
> this just Ron's lack of confidence manifesting itself rather 
plainly?  Do
> you think the Twins play an especially strong role in Ron's self-
esteem
> issues?  He seems to be particularly sensitive to their jibes and 
avoids
> giving them reason to bother him.


Another good question.  I can't think of any reason for Ron to 
believe that Harry would *ever* laugh at him for trying out for the 
Keeper position.  They've certainly played pickup games with the 
twins back at the Burrow, so it's not as if Harry's never seen him 
play before.  I do think that it's mainly Ron's lack of confidence 
behind his secrecy, and I also think that his fear of the twins 
ridicule also is a large factor in his self-esteem problems.  
Without really meaning to, F&G have really boxed in their little 
brother who is desperate to keep them from classifying him 
as "another Percy", particularly after becoming a prefect.

 
> 8.  Were you convinced by Hermione's explanation that maybe it was
> coincidence that Harry's scar hurt when Umbridge touched him?  Is 
Hermione
> right so often in OoP that it might be a red herring in later 
books?

At the time I first read it, no, I wasn't convinced about Harry's 
scar-pain at Umbridges' touch being a coincidence.  However, I don't 
think that I ever believed that Voldemort was possessing her, either 
because I just don't think that JKR would use that trick twice.


> 9.  Shipping question (of course!): what do you make of the fact 
that
> Hermione seems anxious to get off to bed on a night when Ron will 
clearly
> wanting to be celebrating and might even have confidence enough to 
make a
> romantic gesture towards her?  If she knows he likes her and she 
likes him
> back, why would she not take the chance to be alone with him when 
he's in
> the best spirits ever before (and instead asks Harry to join her 
in knitting
> the next day, looking "disappointed" at his answer)?  <g>


Gee, I didn't think that this was a shipping question at all ;-).
Actually, I remember laughing out loud the first time I read the 
passage in question because I thought it was extremely obvious that 
the reason Hermione is sleeping in the middle of the Gryffindor 
celebration for Ron is that Fred and George have slipped her a 
mickey.  

"'Let her sleep,' said George hastily.  It was a few moments before 
Harry noticed that several of the first years gathered around them 
bore unmistakable signs of recent nosebleeds." OoP, p276, Scholastic 
edition.

It never even occurred to me that she'd be snoozing out of boredom.  
In fact, she'd probably have been hyper-alert in order to protect 
the first-years from the twins' experiments since she's already 
caught them at it before.  I'm positive that getting Hermione out of 
commission was at the top their list that night ;-).

As for the romantic aspects of the situation, I don't think that Ron 
would put any sort of move on Hermione at this point no matter how 
happy he was at making the team.  I'm sure he thinks that she's 
already involved with Krum, the older, famous Quidditch star, and 
that he doesn't believe that he stands a chance with her.  Anyway, 
let's face it; neither Harry or Ron are ready to pursue the girls 
they are interested in.  If Hermione hadn't pushed him so hard, I 
don't think Harry would ever have taken the intiative to ask Cho 
out.  He and Ron are still in the stage where they'd rather admire a 
girl from afar, than risk almost certain humiliation.

I don't think that Hermione needs or wants to scheme to be alone 
with Ron.  They already spend loads of time on their own together, 
and I imagine she knows that Ron isn't about to "do anything" about 
his crush on her (even *if* she's still sure that he has one).

As for her asking Harry to help her knit elf-hats, I just saw that 
as one more example of how she just doesn't really "get" Harry when 
it comes to understanding what he considers fun.  He'd probably 
rather help Snape out in the dungeons, than help knit elf hats! <g>

Great questions!

Jo Serenadust, waving to all the other Jo's who've appeared on the 
list lately






From lhuntley at fandm.edu  Tue Mar  2 03:51:40 2004
From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley)
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 22:51:40 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 13 (Detention with
 Dolores)
In-Reply-To: <c203o3+ba9c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <E9D5B572-6BFC-11D8-BC58-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 91882

Penny:
 > 8.  Were you convinced by Hermione's explanation that maybe it
 > was coincidence that Harry's scar hurt when Umbridge touched him?
 > Is Hermione right so often in OoP that it might be a red herring in
 > later books?

Personally, I feel like Hermione is 'right' no more frequently than in 
any of the other books.  However, during my first read-through of OotP, 
I did think in was strangely coincidental that she correctly *guessed* 
that Voldemort didn't actually have Sirius at the MoM (during 
subsequent readings, however, it seemed more and more plausible that 
she would have taken Dumbledore's insistence that Harry learn 
Occulmency and put two and two together).

Of course, it is quite standard in literature for the supporting cast 
to disbelieve the Hero's visions out of hand -- it's just that, most of 
the time, they're *wrong*. ^_^

Ali:
 > I felt rather frustrated with OoP's Hermione - she was almost too
 > perfect and too mature. She is analytical enough for her to
 > correctly think that the scar hurting might be caused by something
 > else. I was far less convinced by her sudden ability to analyse how
 > other girls felt. She seems to have changed enormously from the girl
 > unable to show compassion to Lavender when her rabbit was killed in
 > PoA. In a way, I hope Hermione gets it wrong soon, she will feel all
 > the more real because of it.

Actually, Hermione has been trying to educate Ron and Harry about girls 
ever since GoF.  I think her keenly analytical nature actually *helps* 
her figure out what going on in other girls' heads.  People like 
Hermione (and myself and my roommate, for example) are *great* at 
figuring out *logically* why other people behave the way they do -- we 
just aren't so good at applying that information in a sensitive, humane 
way.

Furthermore, I just don't share the (prevalent, IMO) view of Hermione 
as cold, calculating, and entirely logical.  Often, she's far more 
emotional/emotionally sensitive than the boys (yeah, I know, that's not 
exactly hard).  She's the only character we know of to be consistently 
kind, encouraging, and respectful of Neville, for instance (well, 
except for that time when she petrified him ^_~).  She's one of the few 
characters to give Harry a hug when he really needs it.  In fact, she 
is *constantly* doing things to help Harry out emotionally and mentally 
(e.g. the DA, the interview with Rita Skeeter, going to retrieve him 
from his self-imposed exile at Grimmauld Place).  Her heart really *is* 
in the right place with SPEW, even if she looking at it/going about it 
all the wrong way.  I think her mind *can* be rather one-track, which 
*does* lead her to be insensitive at times -- it wasn't that she didn't 
care that Lavender's bunny was dead, she just couldn't look past the 
fact that Lavender was *ridiculously* eating up Trelawney's hogwash.

As for Hermione being too "perfect" in OotP, I strenuously object.  For 
me, OotP really brought her biggest flaws to the foreground.  Let's 
have a list, shall we?

1) Her inability to behave properly in a fight.  While I disagree with 
those who say that Hermione's knowledge is entirely theoretical and 
that she's useless in stressful situations, I think she's definitely 
got a long way to go.  I mean, the girl stopped to *congratulate* Harry 
in the heat of battle.  Honestly, Hermione.

  2) I don't really know how to put this succinctly, but her reaction to 
the whole Grawp thing unsettled me.  Sure, not everyone can stand down 
a giant, mad . . . uh, giant . . . the way Harry can.  But . . . she 
didn't only panic -- she actually suggested that perhaps Umbridge 
*ought* to fire Hagrid.  This was a sign of how upset and scared she 
was, I'm sure, and she apologized right away (Harry gave her quite the 
*look*, if I recall properly), but still . . . I'll have to go back and 
see how badly Ron reacted to the spiders in CoS -- perhaps this, like 
that, was only to emphasize Harry's unique and courageous 
(coughcrazycough) reaction to mortal peril.

3) Now, this is actually something that I *love* about Hermione, but 
she is actually incredibly ruthless at times.  Petrifying Neville, the 
polyjuice potion affair, and her capture of Rita Skeeter are just a few 
examples.  When she led Umbridge to the centaurs, I was cheering her 
all the way (does that make me a horrible person?), but I'm worried 
that this trait will come back to bite her in the bum someday.  
(Although JKR's defiant defense of the treatment Malfoy and Co. got on 
the train at the end of GoF seems to suggest that author doesn't think 
a little ruthlessness is a bad thing).

Whew.  I didn't intend to write anything so  long.  *grins sheepishly* 
Uh...G'night, then.

Laura (who fell off a galloping beast (i.e. cantering pony) today and 
is expecting to wake up to a lovely giant bruise on her left hip 
tomorrow morning.)




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Mon Mar  1 18:55:43 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 18:55:43 -0000
Subject: Illustrator info? [was: Re: Where is Pettigrew?]
In-Reply-To: <c1u0f6+60js@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c200vf+krvq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91883

Heather wrote:  
> > I think that there is a huge clue on the bonus jacket art for the 
> > special boxed American edition.  There is clearly a rat hiding in 
> the 
> > grass out side GP.  Many have suspected that animal are able to 
> > perceive magically hidden places and people.  Is it possible that 
> PP 
> > is in fact spying on the Order through out the book

Potioncat wrote: 
> I can't recall where I read it. But my understanding is that the 
> American illustrator did not have any "inside" information and had 
> not been allowed to read the book at all when she did  the various 
> illustrations.  So the rat would have to be taken with a grain of 
> salt.
> 

Susan now:
I do not own the boxed set, but rather individual U.S. edition 
hardbacks.  If, however, you are talking about Mary GrandPre as the 
illustrator of the box cover art, then she most definitely *DID* read 
the book in advance of illustrating it. I think it was the U.K. 
illustrator who did not read OoP, but I remember reading, from a 
Leaky Cauldron link, before OoP ever came out, an interview with Mary 
GP in which it was pointed out that she was one of only a couple of 
people who *did* see an advance copy.

This is NOT to say that she necessarily knows anything about books 6 
or 7 or later series details.  

Siriusly Snapey Susan






From elfundeb at comcast.net  Tue Mar  2 04:21:17 2004
From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 20:21:17 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 13 (Detention with Dolores)
References: <03be01c3ff37$6f097200$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01>
Message-ID: <001401c4000d$cec442c0$1502a8c0@TOSHIBALAPTOP>

No: HPFGUIDX 91884

In honor of Ron's birthday, I will answer all the questions relating to him <g> plus one each about Harry and Hermione.

<<1.  This is one of the first signs of how Ron will handle his
responsibilities as prefect.  Do you think it was merely his family
relationship with the Twins that kept him from being a rules-enforcer with
Hermione or would he have shirked his responsibilities if it had been Seamus
and Dean doing something questionable or something that clearly broke a
school rule?  Do you think Harry might have taken his prefect duties any
more seriously than Ron did?>>

As I see it, Ron was reluctant to take on any of his duties; for example, Hermione had to remind him after the Welcome Feast that it was their job to escort the first years to Gryffindor Tower.  To be truly honest, I think one reason for Ron's stunned reaction to being named a prefect (in addition to the obvious shock that he was chosen over Harry) was that he might actually have to *do* something.  While there's no evidence that he doesn't perform adequately once he gets used to his duties, I think his attitude toward being a prefect is colored by his fear of screwing up his big opportunity.  Fortunately, with a bit of nudging and nagging from Hermione, this didn't become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

<<2.  What do you think about Hermione's attempt to trick the house elves into
picking up clothing that will set them free?  Do you agree with Ron that
"they should at least see what they're picking up?">>

I'll just echo other comments that this is an example of Manipulative!Hermione, who appears frequently in OOP, doing what she thinks is good for others instead of asking them first.  And while I agree with Ron that tricking house elves into freedom unfairly deprives them of their security, Hermione knows that Dumbledore would allow the Hogwarts house elves to continue their lives without change, except that he might offer to pay them if he became aware that they were free.  Thus, Hermione's thinking might be that she is giving them the best of both worlds, though it still doesn't excuse her cavalier assumption that she knows what's best for the house elves even if they won't see it for themselves.

<<4.  On first read, did you guess what Ron was up to (practicing for the
Keeper tryouts)?>>

Perhaps it was because Scholastic told us in advance that "Ron as Keeper" was one of the things on Harry's mind, or perhaps it's because in the same situation I would have done the same thing, but, yeah, I knew exactly what he was doing.

<<6.  Was Harry wrong to fail to alert even one Hogwarts professor about what
was going on with Umbridge's detentions?  He probably didn't know the extent
of her power at that exact point in time, so it was more likely Harry's
distrust of adults and authority figures (and dislike of "showing weakness")
that prompted his decision to stoically bear his ordeal and stay silent.
Even Ron thinks Harry's desire to avoid having Umbridge know that she "got
to him" is ridiculous, as he urges him to report the incidents to McGonagall
or Dumbledore.>>

Harry's been abused before, and he knows how much he can take.  Knowing that Umbridge's boss wants him expelled from Hogwarts, I'm not surprised that Harry doesn't want to do anything that might make waves.  He can be stoic to the point of foolhardiness, but I can't say it's "wrong."  Harry's willingness to endure seven hours of torture only serves to paint an even blacker picture of Umbridge.

<<7.  Does Ron have reason to think Harry would laugh at the idea of him
trying out for Keeper (i.e., is he a bad Quidditch player in general), or is
this just Ron's lack of confidence manifesting itself rather plainly?  Do
you think the Twins play an especially strong role in Ron's self-esteem
issues?  He seems to be particularly sensitive to their jibes and avoids
giving them reason to bother him.>>

I think this comment is very much a reflection of his self-esteem issues.  By saying "don't laugh" Ron is just using a common expression.  I doubt he thought his best friend would laugh at him, but he doubts his own talent, leading to genuine concern that Harry might not think Ron has enough talent to make the team.

Practicing in secret rather than announcing his intention to try out for the Quidditch team gives Ron an opportunity to convince himself that he can do it, and if he doesn't convince himself, he can simply not show up to the tryouts and no one will ever know.  Once he tells Harry, though, he can no longer opt out even though he's far from convinced that he can be successful.  I see Ron's honesty here as very important, because I believe Ron's fear of the Twins' ridicule might have been enough to dissuade him from showing up for tryouts at all.  Note that at first, Ron uses the very tentative "I -- I thought I'd try out" and only after seeing Harry's enthusiastic reaction does he state affirmatively what will happen "*when* I turn up for the tryouts".

<<8.  Were you convinced by Hermione's explanation that maybe it was
coincidence that Harry's scar hurt when Umbridge touched him?  Is Hermione
right so often in OoP that it might be a red herring in later books?>>

I have a feeling JKR has been stringing us along for several books now.  Hermione is so often right that we forget the elements that were wrong.  For example, in PoA she was right about the Firebolt (Sirius gave it to Harry, but he wasn't evil).   She was right about Crouch Sr., but of course there was a lot more to it than his treatment of house elves.  However, I think in OOP it seemed that *all* of Hermione's choices were right, as if she had a sort of Midas touch, to the point where it strained credibility.  Which is a very long way of saying that I absolutely believe that, having lulled readers into a sense of Hermione's near-invincibility, JKR has a reversal of fortune in mind for her where she will be spectacularly wrong, and Grawp, that deus ex machina, won't be around to rescue her.

<<9.  Shipping question (of course!): what do you make of the fact that
Hermione seems anxious to get off to bed on a night when Ron will clearly
wanting to be celebrating and might even have confidence enough to make a
romantic gesture towards her?  If she knows he likes her and she likes him
back, why would she not take the chance to be alone with him when he's in
the best spirits ever before (and instead asks Harry to join her in knitting
the next day, looking "disappointed" at his answer)?  <g>>>

I guess if I promised to answer all the *Ron* questions I can't just let this one go. <g>  

I think it would be very odd for Hermione to anticipate a romantic overture of any kind.  The Trio are friends, first and foremost, and that to the extent any of them has romantic feelings for one of their best friends, those feelings are largely suppressed, consciously or unconsciously.  I think the Yule Ball accordingly created a very awkward situation because they felt compelled to find partners and consciously avoided looking among themselves.

Moreover, for every sentence that can be read H/H, or R/H there's an opposite reading, or at least a neutral one.  In light of what Harry has just related to Hermione, maybe she thinks knitting will be the sort of thing to take Harry's mind off his scar. So I think this is one area where it's virtually impossible to pick up on the clues, because they seem to lead in every direction. 

Debbie

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From kkearney at students.miami.edu  Tue Mar  2 04:36:05 2004
From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 04:36:05 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 13 (Detention with Dolores)
In-Reply-To: <03be01c3ff37$6f097200$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01>
Message-ID: <c212vl+u24c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91885

Only going to weigh in on one question at the moment...


> 8.  Were you convinced by Hermione's explanation that maybe it was
> coincidence that Harry's scar hurt when Umbridge touched him?  Is
Hermione
> right so often in OoP that it might be a red herring in later books?


No, I don't think it was a coincidence at all.  I think it is pretty
strong evidence against the Umbridge-as-Voldemort-supporter theories.
 Voldemort certainly appreciates all the work Fudge and his team
(including Umbridge) have done to deflect attention away from his
return.  However, I think he probably still hates them with a passion.
 First, of course, there's the fact that Umbridge is very law and
order oriented, and therefore Voldemort-coup.  Also, it must be
torture for a power-obsessed wizard like Voldemort to watch such an
obviously incompetent person enjoy any authority at all.  Therefore, I
think the pain Harry felt when Umbridge touched him was a reflection
of Voldemort's intense dislike of the woman.

-Corinth






From artcase at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  2 04:38:08 2004
From: artcase at yahoo.com (artcase)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 04:38:08 -0000
Subject: Slytherins/DE and Girls
In-Reply-To: <c1su5k+iaug@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2133g+lq7h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91886

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" <meriaugust at y...> 
wrote:

(big snippage)

>I see 
> Bellatrix Lestrange as more of an anomally than the norm. I 
> personally think that she has some relationship to LV that we 
don't 
> know yet, and that there is some overriding factor that convinces 
LV 
> of her loyalty, despite the fact that she is a woman. Anyway, back 
> to lurkdom I go. 
> Meri (who will be v. disappointed in JKR if LV and Bellatrix 
aren't  
> caught somewhere snogging in DE HQ sometime in the next two 
> books, cause even a dark lord needs a little love)

I was pondering just how someone who can cast a Crucio spell so 
easily defines "love". I believe her marriage to LeStrange was 
arranged OR due to a mutual interest in torture. S&M anyone? They 
probably get off on others' pain and the Longbottoms torture, 
well... 




From capehoneysuckle at earthlink.net  Tue Mar  2 05:46:38 2004
From: capehoneysuckle at earthlink.net (capehoneysuckle)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 05:46:38 -0000
Subject: Why Astronomy?
In-Reply-To: <000b01c3ffe1$0d7b1340$05030f04@dslverizon.net>
Message-ID: <c2173u+3gbu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91887

> {Robert}
> 
> Why do the Hogwarts students study astronomy?  It can't be just for
> Divination because Hermione is not taking Divination but is taking
> astronomy.
> 
> They don't take biology for the Healers or chemistry to help with
Potions --
> so why astronomy?
> 
> 
> {Anne}
> 
(snip examples of effects of planet positions and phases of moons on
other spells)
 So my guess would be that young wizards and witches need to
> know what's going on in the heavens for spell work and potions/herbalism
> gathering as well as divination.
> 
> It probably also ties into Arithmancy ('Magical' math) for the wizarding
> version of Physics...something I can see Hermione very much getting
> into...^^
> 
> Anne

Honey:
What the Hogwarts students are studying in Astronomy doesn't seem to
be related to muggle astronomy at all. Astronomers study things like
the geology of planets and the physics of star formation and how
astronomical observations support or disprove theories about the
formation of the universe. Astrologers make star charts, not
astronomers. Thus, the Hogwarts "Astronomy" class is very likely to be
related to requirements for specific potions or charms, or for
Divination or Arithmancy (i.e. Divination using numbers), rather than
for any muggle-y sort of use.

Just my $0.02.
Honey




From capehoneysuckle at earthlink.net  Tue Mar  2 06:02:55 2004
From: capehoneysuckle at earthlink.net (capehoneysuckle)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 06:02:55 -0000
Subject: Who was on duty?
In-Reply-To: <c20g42+k04v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2182f+b6vj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91888


> Annemehr:
>(snip discussion of how the DEs removed the MOM security guard before
the battle)
> I'm not at all sure that there was a guard from the Order there at
> night anymore.  Their cover was blown with Voldemort and nearly with
> the MoM, too.  First Sturgis Podmore was presumably Imperioed into
> trying to steal the prophecy for Voldemort, and later Arthur Weasley
> was attacked by the Volde!Snake, which could see through the
> invisibility cloak, by the way.  I think that's why Dumbledore was so
> adamant that Harry learn Occlumency -- because he could no longer
> prevent Harry's entry into the DoM by stationing a guard there.
> 
> 'Course, I could be wrong!  ;-)
> 
> Annemehr

Honey:
I think that the Order is still guarding the door of the Dept of
Mysteries. After the meeting in the Hog's Head, Sirius appears in the
Gryffindor Common Room fire to pass on Molly's warning to Ron and her
advice to Harry and Hermione, saying, "She would have written all this
to you, but if the owl had been intercepted you'd all have been in
real trouble, and she can't say it for herself because she's on duty
tonight."(OOP am ed p.371)

I can't prove that "on duty" is "guard duty", but what other OOP
activities are scheduled? This occurs, of course, before the snake
attack on Mr. Weasley, and Annemehr is quite right that the attack
could have led to termination of the MOM guard position. On the other
hand, the snake attack may have confirmed to Dumbledore that LV was
scouting the DoM in order to plan an attack there, and may have caused
the OOP to double its guards at the DoM. Sorry, inadequate canon for
this question, but I'd like to know if we've lost one of the Order,
even if it's a minor one.

Honey




From tmar78 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  1 23:05:04 2004
From: tmar78 at yahoo.com (tyler maroney)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:05:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Kreacher & The Prophecy (was Re: Kreacher)
In-Reply-To: <1078170357.9249.44091.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040301230504.5973.qmail@web14103.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91889

Susan again:
I also have to question how "simple" or even
permissible it would be 
to remove someone's memory entirely!  It strikes me as
an AWFULLY 
drastic & likely unethical thing to do to someone. 
And if we're 
talking about treating creatures more carefully &
respectfully, then 
just deciding to REMOVE a memory because the creature
seems dangerous 
hardly seems an example of such treatment.


Tyler:
Thats a good point.  I actually feel kinda ashamed now
and Kreacher's just an imaginary character!  

Maybe they should have just freed him though,  when
they first arrived at number 12.  Y'know,  just
dismiss him before he even has a chance to ask Sirius
why he's returned.  Even if he did go to Narcissa at
that point,  what difference would it have made? 
Dumbledore's secret keeper so the DEs couldn't find
the place anyway.  In a way,  it would be kind of
poetic:  once again,  LV would know where his enemies
are but would have no way to get to them.  And this
time there would be no traitor to hand them over.  I
can just imagine how ticked Voldie would be in that
scenario!  :)

Something else in regards to OotP:  why was the Order
bothering to guard the prophecy in the first place?
The only information LV could have gained from the
second half of the prophecy is that Harry will have
power that he has not and that one of them must kill
the other.  The power LV knows not is love.  I'm sure
he already knows Harry has a big heart (he knew he'd
come to rescue Sirius because of his love).  And the
latter is nothing LV couldn't have guessed. 
Obviously,  if only one person has the power to
destroy you,  in the end,  it will come down to a
battle between you and that person.  Am I missing
something?  Why the prophecy such a big deal?

Tyler    

=====
"It is our choices that show what we truly are,  far more than our abilities."

                                                                         - Albus Dumbledore

__________________________________
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From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  2 04:56:45 2004
From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (fauntine_80)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 04:56:45 -0000
Subject: Answering some of the "mysteries" Boggart/Lupin
Message-ID: <c2146d+muot@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91890

Hi!

This is my first time posting to the site.

I was reading some of the "Mysteries" of HP, and had some of my own 
theories...

As to why the Boggart that turned into a moon didn't make Lupin turn 
into a werwolf even though HP's boggart, turned dementor, made the 
room turn cold.

My theory to this is that the Boggart takes on the Characteristics 
of the fear, but not the actual object itself.  (I.E. the Boggart 
doesn't turn into a real dementor, but still has some 
characteristics, like making the room go cold)  Therefore, Lupin's 
Boggart changes to a moon, but it still isn't the actual moon.  Only 
the actual Moon can make him transform into a werwolf.  The 
Boggart/Moon only looks like a small representation of the Moon.

Also, the room goes cold for HP when he sees a Boggart/Dementor.  
Possibly, it only goes cold from his recolection of a Dementor's 
attack, and not from the impostor Boggart itself, as no one else 
seems to be affected from the Boggart.





From elihufalk at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  2 07:40:51 2004
From: elihufalk at yahoo.com (Elihu Falk)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 23:40:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: McGonagall might be the evil one
In-Reply-To: <c1ta6n+e3rs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040302074051.43764.qmail@web21401.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91891

Jo wrote: 
> I probably haven't done my research properly here but is McGonagall in 
> the order? She always seems suspiciously absent. Also, everyone else 
> had an important task to do at the end of GoF, what did she do? You've 
> got to admit she's an unlikely candidate for Voldemort's spy but isn't 
> that sometimes the way?


Elihu's answer: 

She did show up once at the headquarters of the order, and she did seem 
to be involved with the order at Hogwarts. In addition, after Harry saw 
the attack on Mr. Weasley, she brought him to Dumbledore, not the hospital 
wing.

                                                        Elihu






From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  2 06:40:48 2004
From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 22:40:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Reintroducing myself and a question (second impressions of OoP)
Message-ID: <20040302064048.57984.qmail@web41806.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91892

Hey guys,
 
I just wanted to reintroduce myself if you will.  My name is Melanie, and I used to be princessmelabela..but I ended up having some severe problems with that email and well I sort of went on bouncing and ended up never returning with that account.  I'm supposed to do one of the chapter reviews, so if I could still do that I would be really happy.  I am very glad to be back, I've missed my favorite group of all.  
 
I know I need to make this a bit on topic, so I don't get yelled at by the list elves, so I will...
 
I just wanted to know if you have read the book over again, or what not, if your perspective of it had changed a bit or not?  
 
I just finished my second reading of the book, and I must say that my thoughts did not really change a great deal in between these readings.  However, one thing that did change a  bit upon second reading was my thoughts on Hermione.  I adore the girl a great deal, but she is quite self-centered and I am becoming more aware of that by the day.  She is very concerned with her own agenda and what is important to her.  And she is not afraid to get what she wants at the expense of other things, I mean she DOES break rules.  Lots of them in fact and she consistently does somewhat dangerous things.  I realize that she does  these things with good reason.  And for the most part I do not have a problem with her actions.  However, something I do find myself wondering if there isn't a bit of Slytherin in her.  


---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Search - Find what you?re looking for faster.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





From severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Mar  2 10:06:39 2004
From: severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk (severelysigune)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 10:06:39 -0000
Subject: Where is Pettigrew?
In-Reply-To: <c20gkl+jaik@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c21mbf+q990@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91893

Ravenclaw Bookworm wrote:
<< BTW, I realize Sirius would recognize Peter IF he saw him and that 
a rat with a silver hand would stand out a bit.  We do not yet know 
the properties of that hand.>>

Carol wrote:
<< As for the silver paw, maybe human traits, including replacements 
for body parts, might disappear during transformation just as clothing
does. If, for example, Mad Eye Moody were an animagus and could 
transform himself into, say, a bear, would that bear have a rolling 
eye and an artificial leg, conveniently furnished with a clawed foot, 
or would he be a three-legged, one-eyed bear? I think he'd lose the 
false eye and false leg. If I'm correct, Scabbers the rat wouldn't  
have a silver paw, he'd just be an injured rat forced to scamper 
through the sewers on three paws.>>

Sigune throws in:
Or would the silver hand (or wooden leg, for that matter) just 
be 'absorbed' into the Animagus's animal form? Meaning that Scabbers 
the rat now has one paw with silvery-looking hair, just like Cat!
McGonagall has markings like glasses around her eyes? 

Just my 1 Knut (I don't think this counts for 2 :) ).

Yours severely,

Sigune
~ who is always watching, even if you don't notice her (heh heh heh)




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Tue Mar  2 10:30:28 2004
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 10:30:28 -0000
Subject: In the beginning
In-Reply-To: <c20i7v+ae00@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c21no4+n7ht@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91894

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" <annemehr at y...> 
wrote:
> 
> Harry having mentioned his dreams about flying motorcycles earlier 
in
> the chapter establishes that he does indeed have some memory of that
> time, so I am inclined to trust this vision.  To me, a "blinding
> flash" of green light has to be Avada Kedavra headed straight for 
your
> head; otherwise it's merely a jet of light.  Besides, the pain in 
his forehead is associated with it.
> 
> In PoA, when the dementors and boggart!dementors are around, there 
are only sounds; I can't find any reference to green light.  Besides, 
when Lily took Harry and ran with him that night, I can easily 
imagine that she put him in his room and shut the door, and stood 
outside to face Voldemort.  There's nothing in the books that says 
Harry saw her death at all.
> 
> So, I can't get around it.  The green light is associated with the
> pain in Harry's forehead and the scar, and the scar is associated 
with the connection to LV.

Agree with all of the above.

> 
> One loophole left, though, maybe!  Okay, so the AK rebounds and
> unbodies Voldemort.  Though I doubted it before, Phil 
(congusinglyso)
> could still be right that the SuddenlyVapor!Mort tried to possess
> Harry; except that rather than Hagrid taking Harry!Mort to be
> separated, Voldemort found himself repelled right away, by means of
> the new scar, leaving a bit of himself behind in Harry.
> 
> Could be, could be.  I won't bet the house, though!  ;-)
> 

Nor would I. In fact, I'd bet the house the other way. We know from 
OoP what a Voldemort possession feels to Harry - it was such pain 
that he felt he was dying. If vapor!Voldemort had attempted to posses 
him, it would have been the worst memory of his life, and it would 
have been that memory which would resurface when being near Dementors.

Naama




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Tue Mar  2 11:14:40 2004
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 11:14:40 -0000
Subject: Train stomp defence (was Chapter 13)
In-Reply-To: <E9D5B572-6BFC-11D8-BC58-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu>
Message-ID: <c21qb0+gmqi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91895

Laura wrote:

> (Although JKR's defiant defense of the treatment Malfoy and Co. got 
on 
> the train at the end of GoF seems to suggest that author doesn't 
think 
> a little ruthlessness is a bad thing).

What defiant defence is that?  Has she spoken in an interview about 
that incident?

Considering how various types of bullying behaviour figure so 
stringly in OOP, I think anything she says about that incident would 
be very interesting to know.

David




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue Mar  2 12:30:06 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 12:30:06 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 13 (Detention with Dolores)
In-Reply-To: <03be01c3ff37$6f097200$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01>
Message-ID: <c21uoe+108v2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91896

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pennylin" <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:
x> 
> 5.  Is it possible that Harry was really there for 7 *hours* 
writing lines
> that cut into his own hand, or is this another case of Rowling not 
being
> very good with time details?

Every now and then I have to remind myself that these are fiction 
books, not real people and that these stories are written for 
children.  With that in mind, I don't think the numbers are 
accidental errors as much as Kidspeak.  While those of us who love to 
dig through every word for hidden clues and meanings (and there are 
lots of them) will calculate every number to the nth degree, I think 
kids see this as "Boy, what a mean lady!  Seven hours of detention!"  
And of course, in a book about magic you have to suspend disbelief.  
If I can believe a boy can fly on a broom and fall from great hights 
with only a broken arm, then I guess I can believe someone can be in 
detention inflicting pain for 7 hours. 
> 
> 6.  Was Harry wrong to fail to alert even one Hogwarts professor 
about what
> was going on with Umbridge's detentions? 

When he was 11 he was sent into the Forbidden forest from midnight 
till dawn.  Neville spent an afternoon cutting up frogs, Ron had to 
scrub bedpans.  Does Harry understand how much worse this is?  Does 
he think anyone will do anything about it?  He's already had a 
discussion with his Head of House who pretty much told him to behave 
himself.  So, I can see why he did't complain.  

No genuine Hogwarts teacher uses magic or pain as a punishment. And 
McGonagall stopped Crouch/Moody when he transfigured Malfoy into a 
ferret.  Would she have been able to take action this time? 

Potioncat




From nkafkafi at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  2 12:46:44 2004
From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 12:46:44 -0000
Subject: Why Astronomy?
In-Reply-To: <c2173u+3gbu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c21vnm+c2ue@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91897

> {Robert}
>
> Why do the Hogwarts students study astronomy? It can't be just for
> Divination because Hermione is not taking Divination but is taking
> astronomy.
>
> They don't take biology for the Healers or chemistry to help with
Potions --
> so why astronomy?
>
>
> {Anne}
>
(snip examples of effects of planet positions and phases of moons on
other spells)
So my guess would be that young wizards and witches need to
> know what's going on in the heavens for spell work and 
potions/herbalism
> gathering as well as divination.
>
> It probably also ties into Arithmancy ('Magical' math) for the 
wizarding
> version of Physics...something I can see Hermione very much getting
> into...^^
 

Honey:
What the Hogwarts students are studying in Astronomy doesn't seem to
be related to muggle astronomy at all. Astronomers study things like
the geology of planets and the physics of star formation and how
astronomical observations support or disprove theories about the
formation of the universe. Astrologers make star charts, not
astronomers. Thus, the Hogwarts "Astronomy" class is very likely to be
related to requirements for specific potions or charms, or for
Divination or Arithmancy (i.e. Divination using numbers), rather than
for any muggle-y sort of use.

Neri now:
Actually, Wizard astronomy seems to be very up-to-date with the 
latest scientific knowledge. They got the details about Jupiter's 
moons (including Io's geology) exactly right, as we learn from the 
essay for Prof. Sinistra in OotP. Check out this page from the 
website of NASA:
http://www.nasa.gov/vision/universe/solarsystem/02jul_harrypotter.html

Of course, wizard astronomy might actually be much more advanced than 
muggle astronomy. The possibilities are mind-boggling: enlargement 
spells on the telescope lens, apparation to Mars, portkeys to other 
galaxies, etc. One would wonder if the speed of magic is higher than 
the speed of light, and if super-advanced magical civilizations from 
other solar systems are watching us...

Neri 





From diana at slashcity.com  Tue Mar  2 12:52:42 2004
From: diana at slashcity.com (Diana Williams)
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 07:52:42 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Astronomy?
References: <c21vnm+c2ue@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <112c01c40055$41bea5d0$0a02a8c0@DianaPC>

No: HPFGUIDX 91898

>
> Honey:
> What the Hogwarts students are studying in Astronomy doesn't seem to
> be related to muggle astronomy at all. Astronomers study things like
> the geology of planets and the physics of star formation and how
> astronomical observations support or disprove theories about the
> formation of the universe. Astrologers make star charts, not
> astronomers. Thus, the Hogwarts "Astronomy" class is very likely to be
> related to requirements for specific potions or charms, or for
> Divination or Arithmancy (i.e. Divination using numbers), rather than
> for any muggle-y sort of use.
>
> Neri now:
> Actually, Wizard astronomy seems to be very up-to-date with the
> latest scientific knowledge. They got the details about Jupiter's
> moons (including Io's geology) exactly right, as we learn from the
> essay for Prof. Sinistra in OotP. Check out this page from the
> website of NASA:
> http://www.nasa.gov/vision/universe/solarsystem/02jul_harrypotter.html
>
> Of course, wizard astronomy might actually be much more advanced than
> muggle astronomy. The possibilities are mind-boggling: enlargement

I took two semesters of Astronomy in college, and what they were doing is
exactly what I was doing in the 2nd semester.  The first semester was a big
lecture hall where we learned about black holes and the formation of the
universe.  The second semester was all practical work - learning about the
phases of the moon and how to chart them, learning and charting the orbits
of the planets, etc.

Diana W.





From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net  Tue Mar  2 12:59:38 2004
From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne)
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 6:59:38 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Astronomy?
Message-ID: <20040302125938.EKLG1634.out006.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 91899

Honey:
What the Hogwarts students are studying in Astronomy doesn't seem to be related to muggle astronomy at all. Astronomers study things like the geology of planets and the physics of star formation and how
astronomical observations support or disprove theories about the formation of the universe. 


{Anne}

In modern times, with the equipment we have on hand, they do--when the science first started, wya bakc when, it was mostly to watch the postion of stars and planets in the sky, and where they happened to be at any given time--which is about what I suspect a lot of Hogwarts Astronomy classes are about--how to chart where the heavenly bodies are at any given time. It certainly seemed to be a big part of what the OWL test was about in book five. So, in essence, they're learing rudimentary (for scientific Muggles), Astronomy, not the hard core stuff, (Although it would be intersting to see what magic could be made of the energy from a black hole, or the different gravities of varying stars).

{Honey}

Astrologers make star charts, not
astronomers. 

{Anne}

No, but they DO make maps/charts (I should know, I hung out with one of my former BF's when he did his overnight charting for his college courses. I swear that Astronomy students get NO sleep whatsoever...)--which again, seems to be what they were doing in OWLS--Harry was recording where the stars were in the heavens (mapping out coordinates over a period of time), not what 'House" (Astrological quadrant), each of those objects were supposedly located in. So he was still doing hard science, not astrology.

{Honey}

Thus, the Hogwarts "Astronomy" class is very likely to be related to requirements for specific potions or charms, or for Divination or Arithmancy (i.e. divination using numbers), rather than
for any muggle-y sort of use.

{Anne}

Yep, that's just what I was talking about, just didn't bother going into the scientific vs. 'magical' distinctions. 

To me, the Hogwarts Astronomy class is likely very similar in learning and equipment to what the original astromomers (Galileo {SP?} and the like) used and were familiar with, sprinkled liberally with 'modern' notions, such as the full compliment of planets and moons in the solar system and what they're actually made of--Remember the question about the one moon being made of 'ice' not 'mice' when Harry was distracted and messed up his answer?. 

Thanks to the influx of Muggle-born students, who would have already gone through 5-6 Muggle grades, and most likely have gotten at least a rudimentary education in the hard sciences, I suspect that Hogwarts actaully had to alter the curriculum a little over the years--but not by much, since most magical process wouldn't care about what Uranus was made out of--just how long it took to get around the sun and to the very postion you needed it to be in the sky in order to do your spell. Magic is more about will over logic--but you still have to adhere to certain 'natural' conditions in the world around you in order for it to work.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com  Tue Mar  2 13:41:49 2004
From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 13:41:49 -0000
Subject: FILK: Secrecy Tonight
Message-ID: <c222ut+a5kk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91900

I've finished the Chorus Line musical, titled A Vast LEPHT-Wing 
Conspiracy (11 filks all told), which will go up on my filk site next 
week. The three final filks I wrote for it do not really stand alone 
apart from the dramatic context, so I've opted not to post them here. 
I'm now starting my next HP musical, for The Chamber of Secrets, 
which will be my first Sondheim-based musical. Here's the opening 
song:

Secrecy Tonight

To the tune of Comedy Tonight, from Sondheim's A Funny Thing Happened 
on the Way to the Forum (based on the 1996 revival with Nathan Lane) 

A MIDI at:

http://www.geocities.com/Broadway/5748/comtn.mid

Dedicated to Haggridd

THE SCENE: Before Hogwarts Castle. Enter DOBBY

DOBBY: Readers, I bid you welcome. The Potterverse is a literary 
realm that unites the genres of fantasy and mystery. Tonight, in this 
retelling of Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets, we are pleased 
to emphasize the mystery. We shall employ every device we know in our 
desire to ? uh ? mystify you.

(music) Something that's hidden
Something forbidden,
Something from Salazar
In secrecy tonight!

Something ancient-er
Something ain't gentler
Something that's so bizarre 
In secrecy tonight!

Pixies who screech,
Dwarves who will sing
Murderous voices 
In the plumbing

Stone transformations
Snake conversations
And a heroic little sprite.
Mystery and shadow,
Secrecy tonight!

Thousand-year old nook,
Fifty-year old book,
The Dark Lord's evil star
Ascendency's tonight!

Anglias flying
Phoenixes crying
Our hero and his scar
Fight secrecy tonight!

Dumbledore's pluck,
Tom Riddle's plaque,
Warlocks who change
Their wives into yaks!

(Several members of the cast enter)

Evil creation's
Regeneration
Hellish spawn born of death and night
Mystery and shadow,

ALL
Secrecy tonight!

RON
Something that's risky
And basilisky,

HERMIONE
Some thing hates everyone -
In secrecy tonight!
Something of Lockhart

FRED:
Something of Dark Arts

LUCIUS
Hands in the cookie jar

DRACO
Through secrecy tonight!

LOCKHART
Nothing amiss
Nothing I lack
Let me hold sway in robes of lilac

DOBBY
First HP sequel 

GEORGE
Cast without equal

RON
May Salazar's schemes come to light

ALL (except MALFOYS)
Open up the Chamber -
Let us end its blight!

DOBBY (spoken): It all takes place at the Hogwarts School of Wizardry 
and Witchcraft, around and about these three houses. First, the house 
of Gryffindor, where our intrepid hero and his stalwart allies work 
to unravel a mystery of seemingly impenetrable complexity.  

Second, the house of Slytherin, those deceitful folks who use any 
means to gain their ends.  Do they hold the key to the mysterious 
Heir of Slytherin and the sinister creature stalking Hogwarts? (naah, 
but it makes for one hell of a red herring).

And finally, the mythical Chamber of Secrets, in which the true Heir 
Of Slytherin resides. To determine the hidden agenda of this hidden 
heir, our hero must enter the deepest labyrinth of terror, armed only 
with his wand and his indomitable fortitude.

Indirectly affiliated with the house of Slytherin, is Dobby, the 
Malfoy's house-elf, who is probably the pivotal character in Book 
Two. Violating every oppressive law governing his people, he risks 
his very life to aid that hero to the elfish race, Harry Potter, 
providing him with invaluable assistance every step of the way.  A 
role of great pathos as well as a richly comic one, played by an elf 
of such . . . well, let me put it this way . . . Will Farrell, eat 
your heart out
..

Ev'rything you ask for -
Secrecy Tonight!

And now the Start-of-Term feast!

(DOBBY pulls aside a curtain to reveal Dumbledore marching to the 
front of the Great Hall to announce the beginning of the Year's 
feast, with the entire cast of CoS in attendance
)

DUMBLEDORE & CHORUS
(music) Repasts delicious,
Monster malicious
Something from Salazar -
Secrecy tonight!

Ghosts who can party
Ghosts in the potty

DUMBLEDORE
A villain disembodied -

ALL
Secrecy tonight!

RON:
Nothing of Grims,

NEVILLE:
No dreams of doors

HERMIONE:
No dragons scheduled until Book Four.

ALL
Lessons in dueling
Harry carpooling,
Hundreds of spiders taking flight!

GINNY
Warnings stern and cryptic

PERCY
Threats apocalyptic

FRED & GEORGE
Heir of Slytherin loose!

HERMIONE:
Stirring up Polyjuice

LEE JORDAN
Quidditch fouls!

DOBBY
A Hopkirk owl

FUDGE
Stupidity!

SNAPE
Acidity!

SPROUT
Mandrakes!

LOCKHART
Fakes!

RON & DRACO
Slugs!

ARAGOG
Bugs!

ALL
Terrors!
Errors!
Horrors!
Norris!

A Sorting Hat,
Gryffindor's Sword,
And a sock gives freedom's reward!
Broomsticks and blood sports
Year Two at Hogwarts
Mythical riddles to recite
Azkaban  tomorrow



DOBBY
Secrecy!

RON
Secrecy!

ALL
Secrecy Tonight!

DOBBY
One - Two - Three!

(Segue to

)

    -	CMC

HARRY POTTER FILKS 
http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm 





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Mar  2 15:35:11 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 15:35:11 -0000
Subject: Reintroducing myself and a question (second impressions of OoP)
In-Reply-To: <20040302064048.57984.qmail@web41806.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c229jf+mp8s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91901

Melanie wrote:
> I just wanted to know if you have read the book over again, or 
what not, if your perspective of it had changed a bit or not?  
>  
> I just finished my second reading of the book, and I must say 
that my thoughts did not really change a great deal in between 
these readings.  However, one thing that did change a  bit upon 
second reading was my thoughts on Hermione.  I adore the girl 
a great deal, but she is quite self-centered and I am becoming 
more aware of that by the day.  She is very concerned with her 
own agenda and what is important to her.  And she is not afraid 
to get what she wants at the expense of other things, I mean she 
DOES break rules.  Lots of them in fact and she consistently 
does somewhat dangerous things.  I realize that she does  
these things with good reason.  And for the most part I do not 
have a problem with her actions.  However, something I do find 
myself wondering if there isn't a bit of Slytherin in her.  <<

Welcome back Melanie! The thing that changed most between 
my first and later readings is how much humor I found in the 
Book. It's funnier each time I read it. 

 I agree with you that Hermione is in some moral peril, but I don't 
relate that to Slytherin potential. The Slytherin creed  "any means 
to achieve their ends" is a de facto recognition that some means 
*are* more ethical than others. They recognize that ethical 
standards are external to themselves.

Gryffindors are chivalrous and Hufflepuffs are loyal, both of which 
imply the same thing: moral judgements are not made with 
reference to the self alone.  Ravenclaw seems to be the only 
House without an ethical policy.   It seems to me that Hermione 
sometimes thinks that if what she's doing doesn't violate her 
personal moral code, it is okay. I wonder if that's typical of 
Ravenclaw.

Pippin







From nkafkafi at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  2 15:41:57 2004
From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 15:41:57 -0000
Subject: Prediction: number of pages in books 6 and 7
Message-ID: <c22a05+e9oh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91902

Checking my US editions, these are the number of pages in each of the 
books:

SS: 309 pages
CoS: 341 pages
PoA: 435 pages
GoF: 734 pages
OotP: 870 pages

Simple linear extrapolation yields:

Book 6: 993 pages
Book 7: 1144 pages

I've already started weights training 8-)

Actually, the picture is even worse than the numbers above indicate. 
I did not take into account that Scholastic used a smaller font in 
OotP, so they managed to squeeze more lines per page and more words 
per line. In order to get the true picture, I used my electronic 
versions of the books to check the number of words in each book, 
divided by the number of words in OotP and multiplied by OotP number 
of pages. This way we get for each book the OotP-adjusted number of 
pages (kind of like having prices from 50 years ago inflation-
adjusted): 

SS: 254 pages
CoS: 286 pages
PoA: 361 pages
GoF: 640 pages
OotP: 870 pages

OotP really stands out this way. No wonder it took so much time to 
write. It is nearly as big as books 1, 2 and 3 put together! In fact, 
if you plot these numbers they look more like exponential growth, so 
linear extrapolation is just not up to it anymore, and we need to 
take some stronger measures. If I extrapolate with a third-degree 
polynomial I get this prediction (assuming Scholastic keep using the 
OotP font):

Book 6: 1132 pages
Book 7: 1339 pages

I really hope JKR will break this trend, or it will be ages before we 
get to read these books.

Neri





From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Tue Mar  2 16:02:11 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 16:02:11 -0000
Subject: Kreacher & The Prophecy (was Re: Kreacher)
In-Reply-To: <20040301230504.5973.qmail@web14103.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c22b63+nnj7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91903

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, tyler maroney <tmar78 at y...> 
wrote:
> Susan again:
> I also have to question how "simple" or even
> permissible it would be to remove someone's memory entirely!  It 
> strikes me as an AWFULLY drastic & likely unethical thing to do to 
> someone. And if we're talking about treating creatures more 
> carefully & respectfully, then just deciding to REMOVE a memory 
> because the creature seems dangerous hardly seems an example of 
> such treatment.

> Tyler:
> Thats a good point.  I actually feel kinda ashamed now
> and Kreacher's just an imaginary character!  

Susan:
I surely didn't mean to shame you, Tyler! <g>

more from Tyler: 
> Maybe they should have just freed him though,  when
> they first arrived at number 12.  Y'know,  just
> dismiss him before he even has a chance to ask Sirius
> why he's returned.  Even if he did go to Narcissa at
> that point,  what difference would it have made? 
> Dumbledore's secret keeper so the DEs couldn't find
> the place anyway.  In a way,  it would be kind of
> poetic:  once again,  LV would know where his enemies
> are but would have no way to get to them.  And this
> time there would be no traitor to hand them over.  I
> can just imagine how ticked Voldie would be in that
> scenario!  :)

Susan: 
That's an interesting proposal, Tyler.  Why not, indeed?  With Molly 
& all the young folks there most of the summer to whip the place into 
shape...and with Kreacher's UNfondness for household duties anyway, 
it's not like he was needed nor much help around there.  Why DIDN'T 
Sirius release him as soon as he returned??  

[Probably so we readers could learn another lesson! <g>]

Siriusly Snapey Susan






From lhuntley at fandm.edu  Tue Mar  2 16:05:49 2004
From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 11:05:49 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Train stomp defence (was Chapter 13)
In-Reply-To: <c21qb0+gmqi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <792A8FAF-6C63-11D8-BC58-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 91904

> Laura wrote:
>> (Although JKR's defiant defense of the treatment Malfoy and Co. got
> on
>> the train at the end of GoF seems to suggest that author doesn't
> think
>> a little ruthlessness is a bad thing).

David:
> What defiant defence is that?  Has she spoken in an interview about
> that incident?
>
> Considering how various types of bullying behaviour figure so
> stringly in OOP, I think anything she says about that incident would
> be very interesting to know.

I'm sorry, that was very sloppy writing (and also a quite a bit of 
inference on my part).  I was referring to the fact that after all the 
complaining about the train stomp scene in GoF, she basically wrote the 
*same* kind of scene for the end of OotP (with the DA reducing Malfoy 
and Co. to puddles of mush).  Right after OotP came out, there was a 
great deal of speculation among listies as to what this could mean, and 
the general consensus seemed to be that it was JKR's defense of HRH and 
FG's treatment of MCG at the end of GoF (i.e. she was making no 
apologies and felt that none were needed).  Of course, this theory 
presupposes a lot of things, including that JKR even has a *clue* what 
we argue about over here.

Anyway, I'm sorry for any confusion I might have caused. *trips off to 
iron her hands*

Laura (who really ought to know by now that no one on this list is 
going to let her get away with lazy references.)




From elihufalk at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  2 09:50:52 2004
From: elihufalk at yahoo.com (Elihu Falk)
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 01:50:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Freeing House-Elves against their will (was: Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 13)
In-Reply-To: <c1vuv0+ehld@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040302095052.56114.qmail@web21412.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91905


Neri wrote: <snip>
I think most of us agree that the house elves can't be 
freed against their own will (that would be an internal 
contradiction), though I suspect Ron's objection is at 
least in part just plain wizarding conservatism. 


Elihu's answer:

What about Winky (for her, "That means clothes" was a threat)? She 
was freed against her will.

Elihu





From jojobinks1983 at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Mar  2 10:17:17 2004
From: jojobinks1983 at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Jo=20Hill?=)
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 10:17:17 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Rats at Hogwarts (was Cedric and Pettigrew)
In-Reply-To: <c20npc+g7jv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040302101717.16853.qmail@web60803.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91906

Carol wrote:
> And he would have made the exception twice, once 
> for Percy as a first-year (he would have acquired 
> Scabbers when he was about five) and again for Ron 
> as a first-year (Percy gave Scabbers to Ron after 
> he was rewarded for becoming a prefect by being 
> given his own owl, Hermes).
 
Hi, it just occurred to me, why didn't Dumbledore twig that Scabbers was getting on a bit, it must have been nine years old! Was he a magic rat- I think that this is a definitive no based on something in PS (sorry haven't got a copy to hand). Maybe a zimmer-ratus charm? Probably nothing but superfluous ponderings but it is rather strange...

Jo




From jojobinks1983 at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Mar  2 10:46:06 2004
From: jojobinks1983 at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Jo=20Hill?=)
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 10:46:06 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Snape as a Spy-the one who left forever
In-Reply-To: <c206gm+npk8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040302104606.58824.qmail@web60810.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91907

psychobirdgirl said:
What if it was just a statement, not a threat?  When he was talking 
about the one who left him forever, who would be punished, maybe it 
was just a statement about Crouch risking his life in his service 
and Voldemort knew he would die, so he would be gone from them 
forever, but also he would be punished (captured and "kissed"). So 
that could leave Snape to be the loyal one at Hogwarts.

Jo:
Totally believeable. Snape cannot be a double agent or a spy unless he has the trust of both parties, though I like to hope that he is secretly evil, serving LV devotedly and that his redeeming switch will occur in book 7.
 
By the by, does anyone know if Alan Rickman is planning on keeping the role throughout the film series? For this reason alone Snape should be a hundred times more evil than the Sheriff of Nottingham.
 
Jo




From DBoyken at aol.com  Tue Mar  2 17:23:27 2004
From: DBoyken at aol.com (Deb)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 17:23:27 -0000
Subject: Freeing House-Elves against their will (was: Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 13)
In-Reply-To: <20040302095052.56114.qmail@web21412.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c22fuf+jehg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91908

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Elihu Falk <elihufalk at y...> 
wrote:
> > Elihu's answer:
> 
> What about Winky (for her, "That means clothes" was a threat)? She 
> was freed against her will.
> 

-------------------I would think there's a difference--picking up a 
random item of clothing shouldn't free a house-elf because there is 
no intent behind it. Don't they pick laundry up off the floor anyway? 
I'm sure they pick up after the kids at Hogwarts as a general rule--
my feeling is that they're avoiding Gryffindor tower because of 
Hermione's hats. Those are left there with "intent" (whether she has 
the authority to free them or not) and they find that insulting since 
they do not WANT to be freed, and so avoid Gryffindor. But random 
acts of clothing left on the floor by all these kids?? They can't ALL 
pick up after themselves ALL the time! I feel pretty sure that the 
house elves will pick up the laundry when they do other cleaning. 

And, as to Winky being freed against her will--Crouch absolutely had 
the authority to free her, but I don't think anyone else could have. 
For the same reason, Dobby had to get Harry's sock FROM Lucius Malfoy-
-it wouldn't have been effective from Harry. And yet, Dobby WANTED to 
be free, and so--IMO--was able to interpret that sock as the key to 
his freedom. I'd bet that if he were a happy house elf in a happy 
home and was absent-mindedly handed a sock, it wouldn't free him 
because there was no intent on either side to interpret that in such 
a way. 

For a muggle-world analogy--your boss can fire you from your job 
(clear intent--how Winky was "let go"), you can quit (intent on your 
side--this is what I feel Dobby did--he grabbed the tiniest chance to 
be free), but either way, there is a clear intention for the employee 
leaving the job. Idly looking through the Want Ads would NOT have the 
same effect--that, to me, is the equivalent of a house-elf picking up 
a random, left-behind item of clothes that has no "freedom" intention 
attached. But Hermione's hats--those are like leaving the Want Ads on 
somebody's desk at work, with items circled, and left in plain view 
of the boss--the intent to leave the job does NOT belong to the 
person affected, but it could end up badly if it's interpreted the 
wrong way! (grin)

Deb in NJ





From nkafkafi at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  2 17:44:30 2004
From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 17:44:30 -0000
Subject: Freeing House-Elves against their will (was: Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 13)
In-Reply-To: <20040302095052.56114.qmail@web21412.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c22h5u+8gb5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91909

> Neri wrote: <snip>
> I think most of us agree that the house elves can't be 
> freed against their own will (that would be an internal 
> contradiction), though I suspect Ron's objection is at 
> least in part just plain wizarding conservatism. 
> 
> 
> Elihu's answer:
> 
> What about Winky (for her, "That means clothes" was a threat)? She 
> was freed against her will.

Neri clarifies:
I was being philosophical, not technical. What I meant to say was, if 
one is forced to do something against his will, then one is not 
really free. OTOH if one chooses of his own free will to be a slave, 
then one is actually free. Am I making sense?

Technically, I guess Winky was freed the same way Dobby was, by 
presenting her with clothes. But unlike Dobby it was against her 
will, so in truth she was not freed. She was sacked. In fact, Winky's 
condotion is the strongest indication that the Hogwart's house-elves 
should not be "freed" against their will.

Neri  





From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  2 17:54:09 2004
From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (drjuliehoward)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 17:54:09 -0000
Subject: Rats at Hogwarts (was Cedric and Pettigrew)
In-Reply-To: <20040302101717.16853.qmail@web60803.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c22ho1+1es0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91910

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Jo Hill <jojobinks1983 at y...> 
wrote:
> Carol wrote:
> > And he would have made the exception twice, once 
> > for Percy as a first-year (he would have acquired 
> > Scabbers when he was about five) and again for Ron 
> > as a first-year (Percy gave Scabbers to Ron after 
> > he was rewarded for becoming a prefect by being 
> > given his own owl, Hermes).
>  
> Hi, it just occurred to me, why didn't Dumbledore twig that 
Scabbers was getting on a bit, it must have been nine years old! Was 
he a magic rat- <snip> Jo

Which brings me to a few questions:
(1) Have we ever found out just where Percy got the rat?  (I 
remember a string of posts on this earlier.)
(2) Did DD know about the marauders being animagi?
(3) If "yes" do you suppose he had a hunch that Scabbers was 
actually PP and allowed him in Hogwarts to keep an eye on him?  I'm 
not suggesting he knew about PP being the secret keeper/traitor and 
Sirius beig innocent.  I'm just speculating that DD recognized 
PP/Scabbers, wondered why he was in rat form and in this form for 
sooooo long, and chose to keep him around to watch.  DD doesn't act 
hasty, nor does he disclose all he ponders.  
(4) For that matter, could he have found PP/rat and gave it to Percy 
for precisely that reason?  He knew Percy would go to Hogwarts as 
would all other Weasleys.  When Ron got prefect, he wondered what 
kind of "gift" he would receive because his older brothers did 
(stated in post above).  Given that canon evidence, another Weasley 
tradition would very likely being passing down clothes, robes, 
books, and pets.  So, DD could anticipate that whichever Weasley had 
PP/rat, it would be at Hogwarts, thus motivating him to give it 
(anonymously?) as a pet.

Just some thoughts.




From rredordead at aol.com  Tue Mar  2 18:33:01 2004
From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 18:33:01 -0000
Subject: Illustrator info? [was: Re: Where is Pettigrew?]
In-Reply-To: <c200vf+krvq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c22k0t+svl6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91911

> Heather wrote:  
> I think that there is a huge clue on the bonus jacket art for the 
> special boxed American edition.  There is clearly a rat hiding in 
>the grass out side GP.  Many have suspected that animal are able to 
> perceive magically hidden places and people.  Is it possible that 
>  PP is in fact spying on the Order through out the book
 
> Susan wrote:
>  <snip>  Mary GrandPre as the illustrator of the box cover art, 
then she most definitely *DID* read the book in advance of 
illustrating it. <snip>


Mandy here:
I think as the special edition with the extra cover art, came out 
after the initial June 21st publication, it could very well be a big 
clue to the plot of the next 2 books.

But even if Mary did read the book, she still read the same book we 
did, and we haven't been able to come up with any concrete evidence 
that Peter is hiding anywhere and spying on the order.  

So do you think Mary has some inside knowledge from JKR herself and 
that the picture is a clue dropped for us to enjoy?  It does seem to 
me like something JKR would do. Especially as she knows just how 
much we all enjoy grilling her for clues.

Mandy, who believe JKR to have the sense of humor to drop a clue 
like that.





From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Tue Mar  2 18:55:36 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 18:55:36 -0000
Subject: Illustrator info? [was: Re: Where is Pettigrew?]
In-Reply-To: <c22k0t+svl6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c22lb8+rtds@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91913

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" <rredordead at a...> 
wrote:
> > Heather wrote:  
> > I think that there is a huge clue on the bonus jacket art for the 
> > special boxed American edition.  There is clearly a rat hiding in 
> >the grass out side GP.  Many have suspected that animal are able 
to 
> > perceive magically hidden places and people.  Is it possible that 
> >  PP is in fact spying on the Order through out the book
>  
> > Susan wrote:
> >  <snip>  Mary GrandPre as the illustrator of the box cover art, 
> then she most definitely *DID* read the book in advance of 
> illustrating it. <snip>
> 
> 
> Mandy here:
> I think as the special edition with the extra cover art, came out 
> after the initial June 21st publication, it could very well be a 
> big clue to the plot of the next 2 books.
> 
> But even if Mary did read the book, she still read the same book we 
> did, and we haven't been able to come up with any concrete evidence 
> that Peter is hiding anywhere and spying on the order.  
> 

Susan:
Right.  And that was a point I made in a portion of my post that got 
snipped.  I said I was not aware of any inside info that Mary GP has 
of books 6 or 7 or of the series' conclusion.  

Mandy:
> So do you think Mary has some inside knowledge from JKR herself and 
> that the picture is a clue dropped for us to enjoy?  It does seem 
> to me like something JKR would do.

Susan:
I think it would be FUN if that turns out to be the case...but I'll 
bet JKR wouldn't admit it if anyone brought it up. :-)

Siriusly Snapey Susan

 




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue Mar  2 19:12:30 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 19:12:30 -0000
Subject: Reintroducing myself and a question (second impressions of OoP)
In-Reply-To: <20040302064048.57984.qmail@web41806.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c22mau+8a8u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91914

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Miss Melanie 
<ms_melanie1999 at y...> wrote:
>snip<
> I just wanted to know if you have read the book over again, or 
what not, if your perspective of it had changed a bit or not?  
  
> I just finished my second reading of the book, and I must say 
>that .my thoughts did not really change a great deal in between 
>these readings.  However, one thing that did change a  bit upon 
>second reading was my thoughts on Hermione.  I adore the girl a 
>great deal, but she is quite self-centered and I am becoming more 
>aware of that by the day.  She is very concerned with her own 
>agenda and what is important to her.  And she is not afraid to get 
>what she wants at the expense of other things, I mean she DOES 
>break rules.  Lots of them in fact and she consistently does 
>somewhat dangerous things.  I realize that she does  these things 
>with good reason.  And for the most part I do not have a problem 
>with her actions.  However, something I do find myself wondering if 
>there isn't a bit of Slytherin in her.  

To the first question:
In re-reading the series I see lots of puns that you can't 
understand till later and a good bit of foreshadowing that just 
leaps out at you.  I'm willing to forgive JKR any errors of numbers 
given the amazing detail she's put into these books.

Hermione with a bit of Slytherin?:
  Stepping into the Potterverse a moment here, I can imagine 
Wizarding parents "guessing" which house their child will be sorted 
into to. "That was a Slytherin thing to do!" or "He sounds so much 
like a Hufflepuff!"  And of course, people do have more than one 
trait which makes it hard to anticipate.

I also think there is very little difference between Gryffindors and 
Slytherins. Both go after a goal with intensity. Dumbledore 
(reportedly a Gryffindor) is always bending rules and even breaking 
them for the greater good. OK, so maybe he wouldn't use "any" 
means....but where exactly do you draw the line? It is a fine line 
between "using any means" and doing something questionable "for the 
greater good."

A bit of Slytherin in Hermione?  You bet!

Potioncat (who wonders what mischief 12 year old Salazar and 
Goderick managed.)



 Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Search - Find what you're looking for faster.
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue Mar  2 19:27:29 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 19:27:29 -0000
Subject: Snape as a Spy-the one who left forever
In-Reply-To: <20040302104606.58824.qmail@web60810.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c22n71+jqve@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91915

>lots of snipping, sorry>
> Jo wrote:
> Totally believeable. Snape cannot be a double agent or a spy 
unless he has the trust of both parties, though I like to hope that 
he is secretly evil, serving LV devotedly and that his redeeming 
switch will occur in book 7.
>  
> By the by, does anyone know if Alan Rickman is planning on keeping 
the role throughout the film series? For this reason alone Snape 
should be a hundred times more evil than the Sheriff of Nottingham.
>  
> Jo


I can't wait to see how those three mysterious discriptions from the 
Graveyard play out.  There have been some great thought provoking 
ideas written about them.  I keep going back to the very first time 
I read that section, before we knew about Crouch/Moody and I 
thought "Oh no!  Snape is the bad guy!"  

I do believe he is on our side. I just can't work out all the 
details.  Once it comes together we'll all be saying "Oh how 
obvious!  How did we miss that?"

And, OT, I did see an interview that "implied" Rickman "intended" to 
do all 7 movies. Sorry I don't have a refernce to it.

Potioncat (who assumes we are all on the same side and that we all 
know which side that is.)




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Mar  2 19:43:24 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 19:43:24 -0000
Subject: Kreacher & The Prophecy (was Re: Kreacher)
In-Reply-To: <c22b63+nnj7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c22o4s+p5vh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91916

> Susan: 
> That's an interesting proposal, Tyler.  Why not, indeed?  With 
Molly  & all the young folks there most of the summer to whip the 
place into shape...and with Kreacher's UNfondness for 
household duties anyway,  it's not like he was needed nor much 
help around there.  Why DIDN'T  Sirius release him as soon as 
he returned??  
<<

Sirius was sure that Kreacher would die if he were freed. It never 
occured to him that Kreacher had enough initiative to 
serve the Malfoys as a spy. I think he felt that freeing an old, 
useless House Elf who wouldn't be able to find another Master 
would be a rather disgraceful thing to do; like dumping an aging 
family  pet at the animal shelter, or worse, turning it loose on the 
street.

Pippin





From rredordead at aol.com  Tue Mar  2 19:44:41 2004
From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 19:44:41 -0000
Subject: Slytherins/DE and Girls
In-Reply-To: <c2133g+lq7h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c22o79+oe8d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91917

> Meri 
> >I see  Bellatrix Lestrange as more of an anomally than the norm. 
I personally think that she has some relationship to LV that we 
> don't know yet, and that there is some overriding factor that 
convinces LV  of her loyalty, despite the fact that she is a woman. 
<snip> who will be v. disappointed in JKR if LV and Bellatrix 
> aren't caught somewhere snogging in DE HQ sometime in the next two 
>  books, cause even a dark lord needs a little love)

> "artcase" wrote:
> I was pondering just how someone who can cast a Crucio spell so 
> easily defines "love". I believe her marriage to LeStrange was 
> arranged OR due to a mutual interest in torture. S&M anyone? They 
> probably get off on others' pain and the Longbottoms torture, 
> well...


Mandy here:
Have to disagree with Artcase about the Lestrange's marrage. I think 
it is too easy for us to believe that an evil person is incapable of 
love, or at least, can not share our definition of love. I believe 
that evil people not only love as much, and as deeply as we do, but 
often love deeper than we do. So much so, that it is that desperate 
love, and the desire for love that leads them into performing the 
heinous acts of evil that we condemn.  

I think Bellatrix has a huge capacity to love in a very smothering, 
passionate, demanding, and possessive way.  The person Bella loves 
the most is, of course, LV. She loves him deeply and passionately, 
non-sexually or sexually (although I can't think about that too much 
as it makes my skin crawl), but it is that love for him  which 
enables Bella to so what she does for the Dark Lord without ever 
questioning or faltering.  And, although we have absolutely no canon 
to support this, I think she loves her husband in an equally deep 
and passionate way.  After all they share so many of the same 
interests.  Why wouldn't they not love and have been attracted to 
one another when they met?

Love and hate are the same ends of an opposite spectrum.  Humans who 
can feel deep hatred are also capable of deep love.  And visa versa

Mandy, 






From manawydan at ntlworld.com  Tue Mar  2 20:05:33 2004
From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan)
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 20:05:33 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Cedric and Pettigrew
References: <1078206446.5670.18061.m7@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <000d01c40091$b84f9e20$5c4e6751@f3b7j4>

No: HPFGUIDX 91918

Pippin countered:
>No. We know there was *a* spy for Voldemort well before Peter
>became the Secret Keeper. Sirius  accuses Peter of passing
>information to Voldemort for a year before, but this is never
>confirmed.

Perhaps not the length, but I can't remember any points at which Spy!Peter
is refuted in the books, even in the Shack where Peter is pleading for his
life.

>I put forward an alternate scenario: James, who doesn't want to
>believe that any of his friends are spies, tells ESE!Lupin about
>the secret-keeper switch. Lupin runs along to Voldemort, who
>captures Peter and bullies him into giving up the secret.

How do you see things developing _after_ Voldemort's debacle? If Peter is
still captive (or under Imperio) at this point, he's now free from the spell
(and clearly he's released from captivity). Why not tell the truth? Others
(ever Lucius) who said they were under Imperio were believed. If Voldemort
takes Peter with him, then Peter could have rescued Harry, and once again
told the truth. If Peter _wasn't_ the spy, why should he run for his life,
even if Lupin was also Voldemort's man? He could have cleared up his own
part in the affair quite easily.

Pippin again:
>But Snape was already Dumbledore's agent at that point. "He
>rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort's downfall and turned
>spy for us at great personal risk. " There would have been no
>chance for Snape to return to LV as a spy if he came over the
>night of the Potters' demise.

True. It depends on whether DD is being entirely truthful here or presenting
the best possible case for Snape.

If Snape goes to DD before Voldemort arrives in Godric's Hollow, then the
first part of the statement ("...joined our side before ... downfall") is
entirely accurate. Snape doesn't know the full prophecy and as far as he
knows, Voldemort, successful or not, will leave Godric's Hollow in full
possession of his faculties and knowing that Snape has betrayed him. That
makes the last part of the statement ("great personal risk") also completely
true. The bit about "turned spy" may be a little bit of spin.

To develop my theory a little further. DD doesn't go to Godric's Hollow.
Instead he spends the rest of the night interrogating Snape, who provides a
great deal of useful information, enough to enable the Order to round up the
surviving DEs the following day (which explains where DD has been that day,
and why he hasn't been able to put McGonagall in the picture before they
meet in the evening). But Snape still has his own agenda and a few cards to
play.

> And Dumbledore would have known from Snape's account that
>Peter was the Secret-keeper, for only the secret keeper can give
>the secret away.

It's just possible that DD is careless on that point, believing Sirius still
to be the secret keeper, and Snape doesn't trouble to put him right. A few
hours later, Sirius catches up with Peter and Snape can safely believe the
whole question to be academic anyway.

But I'd have to agree that Lupin's stock is rising as the other traitor in
the Order. If it was Sirius, then I don't think JKR would have killed him
off before he had the chance to do some dirty deeds...

Cheers

Ffred

O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon
Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion
Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri





From jferer at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  2 20:16:23 2004
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 20:16:23 -0000
Subject: Train stomp defence (was Chapter 13)
In-Reply-To: <792A8FAF-6C63-11D8-BC58-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu>
Message-ID: <c22q2n+ssri@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91919

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Laura Ingalls Huntley
<lhuntley at f...> wrote:
Laura wrote:
(Although JKR's defiant defense of the treatment Malfoy and Co. got on
the train at the end of GoF seems to suggest that author doesn't think
a little ruthlessness is a bad thing).
 
I'd call it rough justice instead of ruthlessness, but I completely
agree JKR has no problem with it.  I don't, either.  She has said in
interviews she can't understand Draco fans.

David:
What defiant defence is that?  Has she spoken in an interview about
that incident?

Considering how various types of bullying behaviour figure so stringly
in OOP, I think anything she says about that incident would be very
interesting to know."
 
Laura:I'm sorry, that was very sloppy writing (and also a quite a bit
of inference on my part).  I was referring to the fact that after all
the complaining about the train stomp scene in GoF, she basically
wrote the *same* kind of scene for the end of OotP (with the DA
reducing Malfoy and Co. to puddles of mush).  Right after OotP came
out, there was a great deal of speculation among listies as to what
this could mean, and  the general consensus seemed to be that it was
JKR's defense of HRH and FG's treatment of MCG at the end of GoF (i.e.
she was making no apologies and felt that none were needed).  Of
course, this theory  presupposes a lot of things, including that JKR
even has a *clue* what we argue about over here."

I believe JKR is well aware of what we say around here and other
places like here; she responded to a number of fan threads in OotP, I
believe, and rewriting the "stomp" scene into OotP (improving it
even), can well be taken as a defiant defense of the kind of rough
justice Draco & the Knuckles Twins got.

The OotP scene is a little different in that it was even more
clear-cut than the GoF scene; the DA members were defending Harry from
a direct physical or magical assault, as opposed to "merely" being
taunted beyond endurance with Cedric's death.

Wouldn't you like to know what JKR's ID on this list is?

Jim Ferer

Harry has never started it with Draco.  He'd leave Draco alone and
unmolested forever if Draco didn't start the trouble. That's not
bullying.  Starting trouble and then getting your fanny handed to you
isn't getting bullied either.




From grannybat at hotmail.com  Tue Mar  2 20:24:37 2004
From: grannybat at hotmail.com (grannybat84112)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 20:24:37 -0000
Subject: Drawings vs. Canon  [was: Illustrator info?]
In-Reply-To: <c22lb8+rtds@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c22qi5+som6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91920

>>>>Heather wrote:  
>>>>I think that there is a huge clue on the bonus jacket art for the 
>>>>special boxed American edition.  There is clearly a rat hiding in 
>>>>the grass out side GP.
>>>  
>>>Susan wrote:
>>><snip>  Mary GrandPre as the illustrator of the box cover art, 
>>>then she most definitely *DID* read the book in advance of 
>>>illustrating it. <snip>
>> 
>> Mandy here:
>>But even if Mary did read the book, she still read the same book we 
>>did, and we haven't been able to come up with any concrete  
>>evidence that Peter is hiding anywhere and spying on the order.  


I feel I ought to say something before people get their hopes up.

The following quotes are snipped from posts that first appeared on 
the OTChatter group?-greatly edited for the sake of brevity and 
contextual continuity, but still, I think, understandable. For the 
full discussion go to HP4GU-OTCHatter Post #19803, "Mary GrandPr? in 
SLC and the canonicity of her artwork (long), "and follow the 
conversation threads. 

Grannybat


Background: Mary GrandPr?, who created the cover art and chapter 
illustrations for the Scholastic editions of Harry Potter, gave a 
lecture and slide show at the main library in Salt Lake City, Utah on 
Saturday, November 15th, 2003. Several of us local fans attended.

(carets minimized for the sake of clarity)

<begin quotage>

Dicentra:

>She (GrandPre) makes three preliminary sketches and they choose 
one, "they" being the Scholastic editor and art director. She does 
not confer with JKR on the illustrations, because the editors want 
the artists to come up with their own interpretation of the story. 
(This is also common practice in the children's book industry.) This 
means, then, that the illustrations are NOT CANON. So much for 
finding secret clues in the cover art. Sorry! 

Grannybat interjected: 
...I got the impression that the art director doesn't attach nearly 
as much importance to the chapter drawings as to the book jacket, so 
she may feel she has more leeway for humor inside the book.

Dicentra continued:

>However, JKR does approve her preliminary character sketches, but 
she's very willing to let GrandPr? bring her own artistic vision into 
the art -- which means that she very likely approved Snape With 
Goatee and other renderings that fans dislike. ...

Grannybat adds:
I think it's worth noting that when I asked her why she drew Snape in 
a way other than how JKR described him (couched in terms of who 
approves the final drawings, so as not to appear hostile), GrandPre's 
face went blank for a moment and she asked in a small voice, "How is 
he described?"

... I seemed to sense a collective "Huh???!" of disbelief from the 
audience... The woman who puts the face on Our Boy Harry says she 
loves him--but she doesn't remember important details like that?(!)

I gave her a condensed version of canon rather than quote chapter and 
verse. She took a moment, then said, still in that small, somewhat 
intimidated voice, that she thought JKR's description left enough
room for "other" interpretations.

Back to Dicey:

>...She did meet JKR once in Chicago when she was doing book 
publicity. She told GrandPr? that she likes her covers the 
best. ...Of all the non-Bloomsbury artists to do HP cover art, 
(GrandPre) is the only one who gets to read the manuscript before 
creating a cover. Security concerns keep the mss. out of the hands of 
other artists, which explains why some of the foreign-language covers 
are so goofy. 

>... She says that reading is very difficult for her (dyslexia?), and 
that we fans know the books far better than she does.

>--Dicentra, who forgot to ask her why Harry was holding his wand in  
his *left* hand on the covers of GoF and OoP. Rats!

Granny again:
I didn't manage to ask, either, but I'm not worried about this 
anymore. When Jen showed us her copy of the special edition hardback, 
I noticed that the image of Harry in the blue DoM room is used as end 
pages. While we were ooohing and aaaahing over the details of 
Dumbledore's spectacles and the decapitated fairies that grace the 
Black house on the new book jacket, Jen pointed out that the first 
cover art had been "flipped" inside the book covers. There Harry
holds his wand in his right hand.

So, aside from GrandPre's potential dyslexia and lack of memory for 
details, whichever hand was drawn in the original artwork has no 
hidden meaning attached to it.

<end quotage>





From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  2 20:57:59 2004
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 20:57:59 -0000
Subject: Harry and Detention with Dolores
Message-ID: <c22sgn+gf8v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91921

I have been reading with interest people's comment on whether Harry
was right or wrong in enduring Umbridge's detentions, and whether it
was believable behavior for a boy in that circumstances.

I think we need to remember that kids live in their own private world
that is run by their own private set of rules; the rules of the
playground, the Code of Youth. 

As an illustration of Harry's behavior, let me reference two examples
for real life; Catholic School and English/European Broarding Schools.

Anyone who has been to Catholic school know that physical punishment
is quite common, and in a sense, the daily routine become like a
little war between the Nuns and the boys. The boys will go to any
length, including risk of life and limb, to get one over on the Nuns,
and the Nun dispense ever more cruel and ever more frequent
punishments with each infraction.

According to the Code of the Playground, any boy who does not want to
spend the rest of his school years, and potentially the rest of his
life, being ridiculed makes a super-human effort to not flinch or in
anyway show pain even under the most severe punishment from the Nuns.
Sadly, many schoolboys are like predators, show the slightest sign of
weakness and they won't hesitate to attack. 

Plus, there is a matter of pride involved, in the war between the boys
and the Nuns, the boys swear in internal solumn oath that they will
never give the Nuns the satisfaction of knowing that their punishment
got to them. Very much the way Harry refused if give Umbridge the
satisfaction of knowing her punishents were effecting him.

In days gone by, based on movies I've seen, the English/European Boy's
 Boarding Schools were much the same way. In order to maintain
discipline in the school, the Prefects were given the power to punish
students. Being the sadistic power-hungry little demons that they are,
the punishment grew beyond that authorized by the school, and became a
sadistic ritual played out amoung the boys. A ritual involving ever
greater number and with substantially greater force, swats on the bum
with a cane; not a regular cane but a whipping cane usually bamboo or
willow. 

Again, the Code of the Playground, or in this case, the Code of Boy's
Boarding Schools said that you did not give the punisher the
satisfction of knowing they had the power to hurt you, so you used
ever fiber of will-power you had, and never let them see you flinch or
hear you cry out even under the most brutal assault.

Adding one additional example, would be American College fraternity
house initiation which, if not controlled and observed properly,
gradually escalate into sadistic demented hazing rituals. Ritual that
become so extreme that students have actually died in the process.
Again, if you want to pass the initiation, if you want to retain the
respect of your 'brothers', you do not let them see you flinch. You
endure whatever they dish out because the ethos of youth will not
allow otherwise.

Harry did a very common and typically 'boy' thing. He didn't go
running and crying to the headmaster, because he simply would not and
could not allow Umbridge to think that she was stronger than he was,
that her force of will was stronger than his, and he could not and
would not allow his fellow students to think he was a whimp.

Indeed this was a test of wills; Harry own private 'boy' war against
Umbridge. The same war that is fought on a daily basis between Nuns
and boys everywhere. Any boy who wants to retain the respect of his
peers and any sense of self-respect can never allow himself to appear
weak. 

Maybe you have to be a boy to understand these things, but what Harry
did is what any self-respecting school boy would have done; at least
what any boy would have done up until the not to distant past. Today,
a boy is more likely to go hire a lawyer and sue the school for a
small fortune.

Did Harry do the right thing? Absolutely not! As an adult, I see that
he did the worst possible things; but as some one who was once a boy,
I very clearly see and understand that he did the BOY thing. 

Just a few thoughts.

bboy_mn








From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Tue Mar  2 20:57:34 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 20:57:34 -0000
Subject: Kreacher & The Prophecy (was Re: Kreacher)
In-Reply-To: <c22o4s+p5vh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c22sfu+31o1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91922

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> 
wrote:
> > Susan: 
> > That's an interesting proposal, Tyler.  Why not, indeed?  With 
> Molly  & all the young folks there most of the summer to whip the 
> place into shape...and with Kreacher's UNfondness for 
> household duties anyway,  it's not like he was needed nor much 
> help around there.  Why DIDN'T  Sirius release him as soon as 
> he returned??  
> <<
> 
> Sirius was sure that Kreacher would die if he were freed. It never 
> occured to him that Kreacher had enough initiative to 
> serve the Malfoys as a spy. I think he felt that freeing an old, 
> useless House Elf who wouldn't be able to find another Master 
> would be a rather disgraceful thing to do; like dumping an aging 
> family  pet at the animal shelter, or worse, turning it loose on 
the 
> street.
> 
> Pippin

Is this canon, Pippin, or are you speculating?  Much as it grieves 
Kneasy that anyone is in this camp, I am one who LIKES Sirius, and 
still, I frankly can't imagine his caring as much as what you're 
saying.  And I can't recall reading this in OoP....  

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  2 21:16:36 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 21:16:36 -0000
Subject: Who was on duty?
In-Reply-To: <c2182f+b6vj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c22tjk+udhg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91923

Annemehr:
<snip> I'm not at all sure that there was a guard from the Order there
at night anymore. Their cover was blown with Voldemort and nearly with
the MoM, too. First Sturgis Podmore was presumably Imperioed into
trying to steal the prophecy for Voldemort, and later Arthur Weasley
was attacked by the Volde!Snake, which could see through the
invisibility cloak, by the way. I think that's why Dumbledore was so
adamant that Harry learn Occlumency -- because he could no longer
prevent Harry's entry into the DoM by stationing a guard there.

Honey:
I think that the Order is still guarding the door of the Dept of
Mysteries. After the meeting in the Hog's Head, Sirius appears in the
Gryffindor Common Room fire to pass on Molly's warning to Ron and her
advice to Harry and Hermione, saying, "She would have written all this
to you, but if the owl had been intercepted you'd all have been in
real trouble, and she can't say it for herself because she's on duty
tonight."(OOP am ed p.371)
 
I can't prove that "on duty" is "guard duty", but what other OOP
activities are scheduled? This occurs, of course, before the snake
attack on Mr. Weasley, and Annemehr is quite right that the attack
could have led to termination of the MOM guard position. On the other
hand, the snake attack may have confirmed to Dumbledore that LV was
scouting the DoM in order to plan an attack there, and may have caused
the OOP to double its guards at the DoM. Sorry, inadequate canon for
this question, but I'd like to know if we've lost one of the Order,
even if it's a minor one.


Carol:
I agree with annemehr that the Order must have stopped guarding the
door after Arthur was bitten by the snake (though I thought the cloak
had slipped; I'm not sure that Volde!snake could see through it).

As for the other members of the Order, I think we'd have been told if
anything happened to them, just as we hear about Sturgis Podmore (who
should show up again in Book 6 to tell his side of the story) and poor
Bode (who, I realize, was an Unspeakable, not an Order member. Things
didn't Bode well for him, did they?) Ahem.

Anyway, we meet several Order members in OoP chapter three, "The
Advance Guard," who never appear again in that book: Elphias Doge,
Emmeline Vance, and Hestia Jones. We're also reintroduced to Dedalus
Diggle, who has been mentioned in passing in more than one book, IIRC:
Harry meets him twice in SS/PS and McGonagall suspects him of setting
off fireworks (or wand sparks?) to celebrate the defeat of Voldemort
in SS/PS chapter one. It's clear (to me) that Dedalus Diggle has some
important role to play in either Book 6 or Book 7 or we wouldn't have
been introduced to him so early and so often.

As for the other three, I wonder why we never see them at 12 Grimmauld
Place and what they've been up to during the timeframe of OoP. The
advance guard seems to me to be a lot larger than necessary just to
escort Harry to headquarters, especially since he's camouflaged by a
disillusionment charm. Why not just Mad-Eye, Lupin, Tonks, Sturgis
Podmore, and Kingsley Shacklebolt--the members who have a role to play
in OoP? I think it's because JKR used that chapter to introduce the
Order members whom we (and Harry) haven't met (or "properly met," in
Mad-Eye's case). As I said, I don't think they've been "lost" (killed
by LV or his DEs) or we'd have heard about it, but there must be a
reason for their inclusion in that chapter. They must be more than
just names. Am I overlooking a reference to one or more of them?

Carol, with apologies for the somewhat incoherent post




From gbannister10 at aol.com  Tue Mar  2 21:47:25 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 21:47:25 -0000
Subject: Prediction: number of pages in books 6 and 7
In-Reply-To: <c22a05+e9oh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c22vdd+i5b7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91924

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" <nkafkafi at y...> 
wrote:

Neri:
> Checking my US editions, these are the number of pages in each of 
the 
> books:
> 
> SS: 309 pages
> CoS: 341 pages
> PoA: 435 pages
> GoF: 734 pages
> OotP: 870 pages
> 
> Simple linear extrapolation yields:
> 
> Book 6: 993 pages
> Book 7: 1144 pages
> 
> I've already started weights training 8-)
> 

<big snip>

Geoff:
Despite the fascinating Maths in this post, my only thought is that I 
am sure that it was reported, at the time of the publication of 
OOTP,  that Book 6 would be a fair bit shorter.... was it from JKR as 
source or is my imagination on overdrive??




From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Tue Mar  2 21:57:21 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 21:57:21 -0000
Subject: In the beginning
In-Reply-To: <c21no4+n7ht@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c23001+p0br@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91925

"annemehr" wrote:
 
Harry having mentioned his dreams about flying motorcycles earlier 
in the chapter establishes that he does indeed have some memory of 
that time, so I am inclined to trust this vision.  
snip
Though I doubted it before, Phil (congusinglyso) could still be right 
that the SuddenlyVapor!Mort tried to possess Harry; except that 
rather than Hagrid taking Harry!Mort to be separated, Voldemort found 
himself repelled right away, by means of the new scar, leaving a bit 
of himself behind in Harry.
Could be, could be.  I won't bet the house, though!  ;-)
 
Naama wrote: 
Nor would I. In fact, I'd bet the house the other way. We know from 
OoP what a Voldemort possession feels to Harry - it was such pain 
that he felt he was dying. If vapor!Voldemort had attempted to posses 
him, it would have been the worst memory of his life, and it would 
have been that memory which would resurface when being near Dementors.
 
 Naama

Sue here:

I think the idea of Volde possessing Harry when he was a baby is very 
interesting.  I would add to annemehr's argument that since we do not 
know all of the qualities of the scar or of what happened after 
Voldemort used Harry's blood to reincarnate himself what effect 
possession may have had on Harry.  Harry has no memory of his scar 
even twinging until he got to Hogwarts and Voldemort knows he cannot 
touch Harry at the Dursley's.  He would have had to try in order to 
know that.  

My thinking then, is that early on Harry's scar did not bother him 
even when Voldemort was close, or if it did it was so minor it was 
not memorable.  If that is true, it is entirely possible that a 
possession of the infant Harry would not have caused him great pain.  
We also know that it was not until Voldemort regenerated himself with 
Harry's blood that he was able to touch Harry.  Like (IIRC) Phil 
(confusinglyso) said, he would have been repelled by the charm (or 
whatever) placed on Harry by Lilly and he would not have been able to 
possess Harry at all.

I think this all goes back to the "essence divided" mentioned in 
OotP.  I said in another post early on that I believe it is possible 
that what happened at Godrick's Hollow is that Voldemort's life force 
was transfered to Harry.  IOW, Harry actually "died" and was 
immediatly filled with the life force of Tom Riddle by a rebounded 
curse caused by some sort of charm used by Lilly.  That way Harry 
gains skills he would not have had and when Voldemort used Harry's 
blood to regenerate himself they were in "essence" sharing the same 
life force.  "Neither can live while the other survives."

Pure wild speculation on my part and much longer than I expected but 
I find it interesting!

Sue




From gbannister10 at aol.com  Tue Mar  2 21:59:33 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 21:59:33 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 13 (Detention with Dolores)
In-Reply-To: <03be01c3ff37$6f097200$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01>
Message-ID: <c23045+9fk6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91926

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pennylin" <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:

Penny:
> Hi everyone ---
> 
> Surfacing only briefly from lurkdom probably ...... but here to 
give the
> Chapter 13 summary and provide some questions for discussion.  :--)
> 

<heavily snipped>
 
> 6.  Was Harry wrong to fail to alert even one Hogwarts professor 
about what
> was going on with Umbridge's detentions?  He probably didn't know 
the extent
> of her power at that exact point in time, so it was more likely 
Harry's
> distrust of adults and authority figures (and dislike of "showing 
weakness")
> that prompted his decision to stoically bear his ordeal and stay 
silent.
> Even Ron thinks Harry's desire to avoid having Umbridge know that 
she "got
> to him" is ridiculous, as he urges him to report the incidents to 
McGonagall
> or Dumbledore.
> 

Geoff:
I would agree with much of what bboy_mn has written in a reply. I 
have commented on more than one occasion in the past about the 
wretched "boys don't cry" ethic which has been part of the upbringing 
of boys in the UK in the past. It is something which I have 
experienced personally, when I have felt the need to let my emotions 
hang out and have been constrained from doing so because of 
my "conditioning". When my mother died for example. I was so 
concerned about beong unable to let my feelings out that I confided 
in a teaching colleague (a woman) who was a great help in reaching a 
closure. Again, when my eldest son was born, there was a medical 
emergency when both he and my wife were in extreme danger and I found 
it so difficult to cope for that half hour or so until the crisis 
lessened.

This leads us on to cover up when something is going wrong or we feel 
we are showing ourselves to be a prize wimp or a nerd or we are being 
misused by someone like a teacher. We don't talk about it, we 
stoically sit on our hands, grit our teeth and just look for light at 
the end of the tunnel. I believe that Jo Rowling has got UK boys spot 
on, at least from my own experience of (some!) years ago.




From nkafkafi at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  2 23:13:29 2004
From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 23:13:29 -0000
Subject: Prediction: number of pages in books 6 and 7
In-Reply-To: <c22vdd+i5b7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c234ep+6hhc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91927

> Neri:
> > Checking my US editions, these are the number of pages in each of 
> the 
> > books:
> > 
> > SS: 309 pages
> > CoS: 341 pages
> > PoA: 435 pages
> > GoF: 734 pages
> > OotP: 870 pages
> > 
> > Simple linear extrapolation yields:
> > 
> > Book 6: 993 pages
> > Book 7: 1144 pages
> > 
> > I've already started weights training 8-)
> > 
> 
> <big snip>
> 
> Geoff:
> Despite the fascinating Maths in this post, my only thought is that 
I 
> am sure that it was reported, at the time of the publication of 
> OOTP,  that Book 6 would be a fair bit shorter.... was it from JKR 
as 
> source or is my imagination on overdrive??

Neri:
I vaguely seem to remember something similar, but in my memory this 
interview was shortly after GoF. The reporter complained about the 
length of GoF and JKR told him that Book 5 (we didn't know its name 
then) will be slightly shorter than GoF...

I fear the exponential growth pattern is not a coincidence. If in 
each book JKR adds about the same number of new characters, the 
number of possible relationships (not necessarily romantic, but still 
need to be described) grows faster than this. That is, between 2 
characters you have only 1 relationship. Between 3 characters you 
have 3 ships, between 4 characters you have 6 ships and between 5 
characters <grope for a pen and paper> 10 ships.  After Book 6 we 
might need a whole discussion group just for shipping. And leaving 
any character out is such a pity. I personally think OotP was too 
long, but this doesn't stop me from being miffed at JKR for leaving 
Myrtle out of it.

Neri





From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Tue Mar  2 23:41:48 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 23:41:48 -0000
Subject: Rats at Hogwarts (was Cedric and Pettigrew)
In-Reply-To: <c22ho1+1es0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2363s+qjnd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91928

<drjuliehoward at y...> wrote:
snip
(2) Did DD know about the marauders being animagi?
(3) If "yes" do you suppose he had a hunch that Scabbers was 
actually PP and allowed him in Hogwarts to keep an eye on him?  I'm 
not suggesting he knew about PP being the secret keeper/traitor and 
Sirius beig innocent.  I'm just speculating that DD recognized 
PP/Scabbers, wondered why he was in rat form and in this form for 
sooooo long, and chose to keep him around to watch.  DD doesn't act 
hasty, nor does he disclose all he ponders.  
(4) For that matter, could he have found PP/rat and gave it to Percy 
for precisely that reason?  He knew Percy would go to Hogwarts as 
would all other Weasleys.  When Ron got prefect, he wondered what 
kind of "gift" he would receive because his older brothers did 
(stated in post above).  Given that canon evidence, another Weasley 
tradition would very likely being passing down clothes, robes, 
books, and pets.  So, DD could anticipate that whichever Weasley had 
PP/rat, it would be at Hogwarts, thus motivating him to give it 
(anonymously?) as a pet.

Just some thoughts.

Sue Here:
It seems entirely possible to me that DD had no knowledge of the pet 
rat (at least until after permission had been given).  Since the 
letters from Hogwarts come directly from professor McGonagall and she 
is head of house for Gryffindor, it seems to me the Weasleys would 
have simply sent a return owl to her to ask permission (M/M Weasley 
were both Gryffindor and their other sons had been as well so IMO, 
they would have known McGonagall).  Once Percy had been given 
permission, there would have been no need to make a new request for 
Ron to bring the same rat.

I think it is highly unlikely that DD had *any* idea PP was able to 
turn into a rat.  If he did know and he suspected Percy/Ron's rat 
might be Peter wouldn't he have questioned him about why he allowed 
the WW to believe he was dead?  The only two people who really knew 
what happened (at least that we know of) in the middle of that street 
were Peter and Sirius.  One of them did something very bad, the other 
was a victim.  I am sure DD would have wanted to be very sure he knew 
who was who.

He was the only one who didn't trust Tom Riddle after all.

Sue




From lbiles at flash.net  Tue Mar  2 23:52:52 2004
From: lbiles at flash.net (leb2323)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 23:52:52 -0000
Subject: Draco's wand
In-Reply-To: <c1fsfv+2os0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c236ok+bvgv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91929

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lizvega2" <lizvega2 at y...>
wrote:
>Draco says that his . . . mother is up the street looking at wands.
Does this mean that Draco's mother purchased his wand? Are there any 
ramifications of this?

Maybe she wasn't looking for Draco.  Maybe she was actually there to
pick up Voldemort's old wand to get it back to him in time for the
hijinks to come.  Of course this far fetched idea takes for granted 
that Ollivander is as evil as some think he is.

leb




From meriaugust at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  2 23:59:00 2004
From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 23:59:00 -0000
Subject: Slytherins/DE and Girls
In-Reply-To: <c22o79+oe8d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c23744+3jej@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91930

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" 
<rredordead at a...> wrote:
> > Meri 
> > >I see  Bellatrix Lestrange as more of an anomally than the 
norm. 
> I personally think that she has some relationship to LV that we 
> > don't know yet, and that there is some overriding factor that 
> convinces LV  of her loyalty, despite the fact that she is a 
woman. 
> <snip> who will be v. disappointed in JKR if LV and Bellatrix 
> > aren't caught somewhere snogging in DE HQ sometime in the next 
two 
> >  books, cause even a dark lord needs a little love)
> 
> > "artcase" wrote:
> > I was pondering just how someone who can cast a Crucio spell so 
> > easily defines "love". I believe her marriage to LeStrange was 
> > arranged OR due to a mutual interest in torture. S&M anyone? 
They 
> > probably get off on others' pain and the Longbottoms torture, 
> > well...
> 
> 
> Mandy here:
> Have to disagree with Artcase about the Lestrange's marrage. I 
think 
> it is too easy for us to believe that an evil person is incapable 
of 
> love, or at least, can not share our definition of love. I believe 
> that evil people not only love as much, and as deeply as we do, 
but 
> often love deeper than we do. 

snippig the majority of the post

> Love and hate are the same ends of an opposite spectrum.  Humans 
who 
> can feel deep hatred are also capable of deep love.  And visa versa
> 
> Mandy,

Wow, I wasn't expecting my little innuendo to spark a whole love-
hate discussion. I was really just making a little, kind of gross 
joke, about some sort of twisted DE version of Seven Minutes in 
Heaven. My original point was that as Bellatrix is the only female 
DE that we know of at the moment, there must be something about her 
(ie: a romantic, or more likely physical, relationship between her 
and LV) that confirms for him her loyalty to the cause and to him. 

Anyway, I think that Artcase is right about the LeStranges' 
marraige. Bellatrix's overriding concern at the end of the DoM 
battle was LV (which means that I also agree with Mandy about her 
loyalty to LV being all consuming). Her husband on the other hand, 
was not at all in her mind. There was no asking, "Where's Rodophus? 
Rodolphus?!" by her. Now, admittedly there was very little time to 
do so, but still, were I truly in love with a man I was marching 
into battle with I would have at least wondered where he was, and 
probably would not have let myself end up to far away from him 
during said battle if I could have helped it. This says to me 
arranged marraige, and from what we know of the pure blooded world, 
that doesn't seem too out of the question. (This brings up a whole 
new thing: who would Sirius Black's intended have been? As a member 
of a great pure-blood house he was probably set up at a young age to 
be married, but to whom? A LeStrange? A Malfoy? A Weasley? Ahh, too 
OT!!!!)

Moving on to the whole love issue brought up, yes I think that 
people who feel hate are capable of feeling great love. IMHO, it was 
partly Tom Riddle's devotion and love for his long lost mother (a 
shunned member of the magical world just like him) that drove him to 
avenge himself on his father (in addition to the fact that dear old 
Riddle senior abandoned baby Tom to life in an orphanage). Tom 
probably felt some solidarity with his mum that stemmed from them 
both having been abandoned by the one man who was supposed to love 
them. Also Tom probably didn't ever feel loved as a child, much like 
Harry. But while Harry ended up with friends and allies at school, 
Tom ended up with followers. Tom never seemingly developed the 
capacity to have a normal loving relationship with another person, 
unlike Harry, who, it can be argued, loves his friends Ron and 
Hermione, his godfather, and the Weasly family very deeply. 
Somewhere along the line Harry learned to love while all LV learned 
was to hate. Now, after OP, hopefully Harry will not turn to hate 
for solace after the loss of Sirius. 
Meri (who apologizes for her ramblings and will no longer make 
sexual innuendo jokes as part of her closing line)




From meriaugust at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  3 00:01:12 2004
From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 00:01:12 -0000
Subject: Draco's wand
In-Reply-To: <c236ok+bvgv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c23788+suri@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91931

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "leb2323" <lbiles at f...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lizvega2" <lizvega2 at y...>
> wrote:
> >Draco says that his . . . mother is up the street looking at 
wands.
> Does this mean that Draco's mother purchased his wand? Are there 
any 
> ramifications of this?
Leb: 
> Maybe she wasn't looking for Draco.  Maybe she was actually there 
to
> pick up Voldemort's old wand to get it back to him in time for the
> hijinks to come.  Of course this far fetched idea takes for 
granted 
> that Ollivander is as evil as some think he is.
> 
> leb

It is also possible that she was just checking out types, lengths, 
styles, and comparing prices, but then again the Malfoy's are so 
rich that Draco probably could have had a solid gold one if he 
really wanted it. 
Meri




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Mar  3 00:08:54 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 00:08:54 -0000
Subject: Cedric and Pettigrew
In-Reply-To: <000d01c40091$b84f9e20$5c4e6751@f3b7j4>
Message-ID: <c237mm+669l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91932


> Pippin countered:
> >No. We know there was *a* spy for Voldemort well before 
Peter
> >became the Secret Keeper. Sirius  accuses Peter of passing
> >information to Voldemort for a year before, but this is never
> >confirmed.

Ffred: 
> Perhaps not the length, but I can't remember any points at 
>which Spy!Peter is refuted in the books, even in the Shack 
>where Peter is pleading for his life.

Pippin continues:
I'm not denying that Peter became Voldemort's agent. The Dark 
Mark is proof enough of that. But when is important if you are 
trying to establish that there are two traitors <g>. JKR has a way 
of making history repeat itself. I hate to keep harking back to poor 
old Podmore, but  if he was betrayed it happened before 
Kreacher was ordered to leave the house. Likewise, I think 
Peter's behavior supports the idea that there was spy in the 
Order before Pettigrew became one. 

Pippin previously:
> >I put forward an alternate scenario: James, who doesn't want 
tobelieve that any of his friends are spies, tells ESE!Lupin about
he secret-keeper switch. Lupin runs along to Voldemort, who
captures Peter and bullies him into giving up the secret.<

Ffred countered:
>>How do you see things developing _after_ Voldemort's 
debacle? If Peter is still captive (or under Imperio) at this point, 
he's now free from the spell (and clearly he's released from 
captivity). Why not tell the truth? Others (ever Lucius) who said 
they were under Imperio were believed. If Voldemort
takes Peter with him, then Peter could have rescued Harry, and 
once again told the truth. If Peter _wasn't_ the spy, why should 
he run for his life, even if Lupin was also Voldemort's man? He 
could have cleared up his own part in the affair quite easily.<<

Pippin:
Peter could have tried  pleading that he was under the imperius 
curse in any case. But he didn't.  I have a feeling this is because 
the Secret-Keeper cannot be compelled to give up the secret by 
magic.  The information is concealed within the secret-keeper's 
soul, according to Flitwick.  I think it's  safe there from Imperius, 
veritaserum, legilimency, etc., unless the Secret Keeper 
chooses to reveal it.  Peter  tells Sirius that he only betrayed the 
Potters because he was threatened with death,  and he sticks to 
this.  He never confesses that he was the one who told 
Voldemort that he was secret-keeper in the first place. And I don't 
believe he was. 

Sirius thinks Peter should've acted in the romantic tradition of 
The Highwayman's girlfriend, and warned the Potters with his 
death. For that reason alone, Sirius would've killed Peter on the 
spot if Harry hadn't stopped him.   There's no reason to think 
he'd've felt differently twelve years before.

But Sirius believes that there was a time *before*  the Potters 
died when Peter could have escaped Voldemort's vigilance.  
That's where it's material how long Peter was under Voldemort's 
thumb. The Secret-keeper spell was in effect only a week before 
Voldemort killed the Potters. I can easily believe that Peter was 
under close surveillance for that amount of time.

After the debacle, Peter would have no way to prove that anyone 
was a DE. The Dark Mark would have vanished from his arm, 
and from the other DE's as well. 

Peter's still the one who betrayed James and LIly and he's an 
illegal Animagus. That's more than enough to put him in 
Azkaban, even if Sirius doesn't kill him.  And if by chance he 
doesn't go to Azkaban, it will look even more as if he set 
Voldemort up, and the DE's still at large will be after him for 
revenge.

> Pippin again:
> >But Snape was already Dumbledore's agent at that point. "He
> >rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort's downfall and 
turned
> >spy for us at great personal risk. " There would have been no
> >chance for Snape to return to LV as a spy if he came over the
> >night of the Potters' demise.

Ffred:
> >True. It depends on whether DD is being entirely truthful here 
or presenting the best possible case for Snape.
> 
><<snnnipp>>. The bit about "turned spy" may be a little bit of 
spin.<<

Pippin counters:
Per OOP it takes lengthy preparation to set up the Secret Keeper 
spell, so Dumbledore must have known that James and LIly 
were in danger quite a while before Voldemort launched his 
attack on them. I suppose that Dumbledore might have built up 
Snape as the spy in order to protect another spy...LOL! maybe it's  
been Karkaroff all along ;-)

But whoever Dumbledore's spy really is, his Dark Mark would 
have vanished when Voldemort was undone. That event  plus 
his knowledge of the prophecy  might have  been enough to 
cause Dumbledore to send Hagrid to Godric's Hollow 
immediately, with orders to fetch Harry if he found him alive.  
There'd be no need to fear that Hagrid would encounter 
Voldemort, and he could deal with any lesser foes.

Ffred:
> But I'd have to agree that Lupin's stock is rising as the other 
traitor in the Order. If it was Sirius, then I don't think JKR would 
have killed him off before he had the chance to do some dirty 
deeds...<<

Pippin:
Agreed.  It's the progression of dirty deeds that makes me want  
the  Muggle killing to be the unplanned result of a missed AK. 
Then ESE!Lupin commits  a series of murderous deeds whose 
intent grows ever darker: The Prank, the attempted murder of the 
guilty Pettigrew (and the unintended slaying of innocent 
Muggles),  the slaughter of the unicorns, the death of the  armed 
and wary Cedric, and finally Sirius, who was murdered "under 
trust" as the Scots say. 

Pippin




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Mar  3 00:34:28 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 00:34:28 -0000
Subject: Kreacher & The Prophecy (was Re: Kreacher)
In-Reply-To: <c22sfu+31o1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2396k+ocqs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91933

I (Pippin) said:
> > Sirius was sure that Kreacher would die if he were freed. It 
never occured to him that Kreacher had enough initiative to 
 serve the Malfoys as a spy. I think he felt that freeing an old, 
 useless House Elf who wouldn't be able to find another Master 
 would be a rather disgraceful thing to do; like dumping an aging 
 family  pet at the animal shelter, or worse, turning it loose on 
 the  street.<<

Susan asks:
> Is this canon, Pippin, or are you speculating?  Much as it 
grieves  Kneasy that anyone is in this camp, I am one who LIKES 
Sirius, and  still, I frankly can't imagine his caring as much as 
what you're  saying.  And I can't recall reading this in OoP....  <

Pippin:
OOP -ch 6
===
"If you just set him free," said Hermione hopefully, "maybe--"
"We can't set him free, he knows too much about the Order," said 
Sirius curtly. "And anyway, the shock would kill him. You suggest 
to him that he leaves this house and see how he takes it."
=== 

That seems to explain why Sirius didn't free Kreacher before he 
had a chance to learn too much. I don't think it's that he *cares* 
exactly. I think his attitude is similar to the Dursleys taking in 
Harry, or Harry and Hermione accepting responsibility for Grawp. 
It's a sense of  obligation rather than sympathy.

Pippin




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  3 00:46:36 2004
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 00:46:36 -0000
Subject: Filed under - Why didn't they....?
Message-ID: <c239tc+mdsk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91934

I was re-reading OoP last night and once again came across the section
of the book where Umbridge has dragged Harry to the Headmaster's
office by where Fudge, Shacklebolt, Dawlish, McGonagall, and
Dumbledore are waiting. (The capture as the DA members fled from the
Room of Requirements just before Easter.)

In the past, we have speculated on alternate, as well as more
realistic, means by which this situation could have been resolved. 

My initial raction would have been for Dumbledore and/or Harry to
discount the value of the DA member's list as evidence, by pointing
out that it is the nature of the Room of Requirements to give the
seeker what they require. Umbridge required evidence, and the room
manufactured it. Umbridge as good as said this herself, "...We needed
evidence and the room provided...". 

Of course, this brings up the debate about whether the room literally
creates what is needed, or whether is simply borrows objects (books,
dark detectors, silk cushions, etc...). While a valid point, I don't
think it would come into play because no one really knows for sure how
the Room of Requirements works, so Dumbledore and Harry could make any
claim, and it would be difficult for Umbridge or Fudge to dispute it.
Remember, Dumbledore only discovered the room by accident in GoF, so
to him, it's still one of Hogwart's many mysteries.

While 'the Room of Requirements provides what you need' was my
original alternate solution to the situation, I came up with another
one when I was re-reading last night. Here it goes...

Near the end of the chapter, all issues have been resolved; Dumbledore
 has established that Harry first Hog's Head meeting was not illegal,
Marietta's testimony has been discredited and her memory has been
modififed. At that point, we are left with nothing buy Umbridge's
speculation, then Umbridge unleashes the coup de gr?ce, she produces
the Dumbledore's Army Members List. At that point, it looks like all
is lost. 

The only way out is for Dumbledore to take the blame himself in order
to get Harry off the hook. But wait...

That list was created during the first D.A. Hog's Head meeting which,
it has already been established, was not illegal. There were even
witnesses. In fact, Umbridge's own witness, Willy Widdershins, as well
as the Innkeeper, would have seen the students sign the list. That
would make the list nothing more than a record of who attended the
first meeting, and consequently, of no value in proving anything about
what may or may not have happened after the list was created. 

After this, there would still be some explaining to do, but Fudge and
Umbridge's last piece of solid evidence would have been discredited.
That would leave them, at the most, with the minor infraction of a few
basic school rules. Although, I can only speculate what those rules
might be. I'm guessing, given her nature, Umbridge could have come up
with something, but the punishment wouldn't have been more than
detention. 

So we must ask, why didn't they think of these two perfectly good
excuses to get out of this trouble?

Well the most obvious answer is that if they had used them, it would
have messed up the story. JKR needed to get Dumbledore out of the
castle, and this was her method.

On a more realistic note, in the heat of the moment none of us,
whether we are real or fictional, can think of all possible solutions
to a problem while under that kind of pressure. I feel confident that
we can all look at our own real lives and see situations where, in
hindsight, we said, 'why didn't I think of this or why didn't I do
that?'. Perfectly good solution that, sadly, didn't come to us until
after the fact. It's just human nature. In the heat of the moment, you
run with the first good idea that pops into your mind.

So while I have two seemingly perfectly good ways out of the
situation, I still have no problem with the solution that
JKR/Dumbledore created. It's a prefectly logical 'heat of the moment'
solution.

In a sense, this was sort of a non-post; I really didn't say much. All
I really wanted to do was to point out this alternate solution that
popped into my head as I was reading that scene last night. 

Just a thought.

bboy_mn










From gsanderson at cfl.rr.com  Wed Mar  3 00:46:48 2004
From: gsanderson at cfl.rr.com (gsanderson at cfl.rr.com)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 00:46:48 -0000
Subject: Is Astronomy important?
Message-ID: <c239to+ui9h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91935

After having read Galadriel Waters books on Harry Potter (liked the 
first one, didn't care for the book 5 "clues only" edition), and 
seeing some recent threads, everyone seems to think that there are 
these great things coming in the Astronomy class.  The point being 
that since we haven't heard too much about it, there must be some 
important clue lurking there.

My own impression is that this will not be an important subject at 
all.  We've never heard much about it and if you read the Owls 
section, this is the test being taken when Hagrid gets attacked.  It 
does not look like Harry does too well in this Owl test and I don't 
expect him to be continuing on with that subject.  I don't remember 
it being mentioned as being critical to the career planning for being 
an Auror. In short, I see nothing to get excited about.

Am I missing something here? 

Kristen






From annemehr at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  3 00:47:21 2004
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 00:47:21 -0000
Subject: Who was on duty?
In-Reply-To: <c22tjk+udhg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c239up+3elb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91936

 
> Carol:
> I agree with annemehr that the Order must have stopped guarding the
> door after Arthur was bitten by the snake (though I thought the cloak
> had slipped; I'm not sure that Volde!snake could see through it).

Annemehr:
There was a small thread on what the snake could see last summer, and
I actually *found* it using the search function!  It began with
bboy_mn who noted:

Message #74316, Steve bboy_mn quoting OoP:
***************************
---OoP Am Ed HB Pgs 462 - 463---
(as seen through the eyes of the snake and Harry's eyes)

...a man was sitting on the floor ahead, ... his outline gleaming in
the dark....

...sitting in front of a door at the end of the corridor....

But the man was stirring ...A SILVERY CLOAK fell from his legs as he
jumped to his feet;...
---end quote---
***************************

Annemehr again:
There was a reply (msg. #74358) from Tzvi of Brooklyn who noted that
snakes can see into the infra-red, and so could probably "see" the
heat coming from someone wearing an invisibility cloak.

For what it's worth, I do believe that Arthur was covered by the cloak
until he stood up at which point the cloak parted and uncovered his
legs.  The phrase about the snake seeing "his outline gleaming in the
dark" is what does it for me -- it's the gleaming part.

Carol:
> We're also reintroduced to Dedalus
> Diggle, who has been mentioned in passing in more than one book, IIRC:
> Harry meets him twice in SS/PS and McGonagall suspects him of setting
> off fireworks (or wand sparks?) to celebrate the defeat of Voldemort
> in SS/PS chapter one. It's clear (to me) that Dedalus Diggle has some
> important role to play in either Book 6 or Book 7 or we wouldn't have
> been introduced to him so early and so often.

Annemehr:
I agree Dedalus Diggle will be important.  Actually, I think I said so
before OoP came out.  I think he is the wizard who hugged Vernon
Dursley as Vernon left work in the first chapter of PS/SS, though
others believe that was Prof. Flitwick.  Because Diggle appeared so
much in the first book, I theorised he had something to do with
Harry's protection in Little Whinging.  Now that I've read OoP and
found out he's actually in the Order, I really think I'm right.  But,
it's another layer of protection *apart* from the Lily-Petunia blood
relation thing, of course.  It could just be that Dumbledore was
having Harry followed all his life, and also had Diggle casing Vernon
beforehand.  Well, we'll see.

Annemehr
who realises she's not be the only one who took note of ol' Dedalus
before OoP, but is the only one she's aware of who thought he had
anything to do with protecting Harry.




From gsanderson at cfl.rr.com  Wed Mar  3 00:55:45 2004
From: gsanderson at cfl.rr.com (gsanderson at cfl.rr.com)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 00:55:45 -0000
Subject: Filed under - Why didn't they....?
In-Reply-To: <c239tc+mdsk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c23aeh+og37@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91937

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
> So we must ask, why didn't they think of these two perfectly good
> excuses to get out of this trouble?
> 
> Well the most obvious answer is that if they had used them, it would
> have messed up the story. JKR needed to get Dumbledore out of the
> castle, and this was her method.
> 
More than the heat of the moment, you also have to assume that Fudge 
and Umbridge would accept the truth if it were presented to them.  
All of the options involving truth require them to trust Dumbledore 
and/or Harry on the explanation.  Everything to that point in the 
book pointed to the fact that Dumbledore and Harry were discredited 
and no longer trusted by the ministry.  The initial setup looked like 
another excuse to expel Harry, the ensuing actions allowed 
Dumbledore - who had other means of survival and avoidance of the 
ministry, the opportunity to take the rap and protect Harry.  At 
least, that is my 2 knuts.

Kristen




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Wed Mar  3 01:27:30 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 01:27:30 -0000
Subject: Kreacher & The Prophecy (was Re: Kreacher)
In-Reply-To: <c2396k+ocqs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c23ca2+mi8k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91938

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> 
wrote:
> I (Pippin) said:
> > > Sirius was sure that Kreacher would die if he were freed. It 
> never occured to him that Kreacher had enough initiative to 
>  serve the Malfoys as a spy. I think he felt that freeing an old, 
>  useless House Elf who wouldn't be able to find another Master 
>  would be a rather disgraceful thing to do; like dumping an aging 
>  family  pet at the animal shelter, or worse, turning it loose on 
>  the  street.<<
> 
> Susan asks:
> > Is this canon, Pippin, or are you speculating?  Much as it 
> grieves  Kneasy that anyone is in this camp, I am one who LIKES 
> Sirius, and  still, I frankly can't imagine his caring as much as 
> what you're  saying.  And I can't recall reading this in OoP....  <
> 
> Pippin:
> OOP -ch 6
> ===
> "If you just set him free," said Hermione hopefully, "maybe--"
> "We can't set him free, he knows too much about the Order," said 
> Sirius curtly. "And anyway, the shock would kill him. You suggest 
> to him that he leaves this house and see how he takes it."
> === 
> 
> That seems to explain why Sirius didn't free Kreacher before he 
> had a chance to learn too much. I don't think it's that he *cares* 
> exactly. I think his attitude is similar to the Dursleys taking in 
> Harry, or Harry and Hermione accepting responsibility for Grawp. 
> It's a sense of  obligation rather than sympathy.
> 
> Pippin

Susan:
Thanks for that, Pippin.  I understand what you're saying about 
obligation over "caring", as well.

I guess this means it falls under "Too bad they didn't think to find 
another home for Kreacher before they started using 12 Grimmauld 
Place for the Order HQ."

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From elihufalk at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  2 13:58:09 2004
From: elihufalk at yahoo.com (Elihu Falk)
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 05:58:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Snape as a Spy-the one who left forever
In-Reply-To: <c206gm+npk8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040302135809.22894.qmail@web21404.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91940

psychobirdgirl wrote: 
What if it was just a statement, not a threat?  When he 
was talking about the one who left him forever, who would 
be punished, maybe it was just a statement about Crouch 
risking his life in his service and Voldemort knew he would 
die, so he would be gone from them forever, but also he 
would be punished (captured and "kissed"). So that could 
leave Snape to be the loyal one at Hogwarts.

Elihu's answer:
 
Voldemort has already told Wormtail about his loyal follower; 
that person is at Hogwarts, and his name is Bartimius Crouch 
Jr. That means that Snape probably isn't being refered to there.

Elihu




From elihufalk at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  2 14:33:32 2004
From: elihufalk at yahoo.com (elihufalk)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 14:33:32 -0000
Subject: Voldemort's Wand
In-Reply-To: <c15ijf+673l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c225vs+e977@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91941

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ilexrdh" <ilexrdh at y...> wrote:
<snip> 
> If he became almost a ghost-like creature when his spell to kill 
> Harry backfired on him & by his own admission "couldn't use a wand 
> to perform the spells that would have helped him" (that's not a 
> direct quote, but you'll remember that bit of the story).......HOW 
> DID HE GET HIS WAND BACK?????????  Did Wormtail go to the Potter's 
> house, but missed seeing the "spirit" of Voldemort, but found his 
> wand & kept it all those years????  Was that the wand he had behind 
> his back when he was confronted by Sirius Black on the street where 
> he killed all of those Muggles & got away by transfiguring????
> I'd love to know, as this is the only really serious problematic 
> thing that bugs me about the Potter books.
> 
Elihu's answer:

Maybe Voldemort's wand was taken by the ministry for safe keeping, 
and Wormtail figured out where (had Arther Weasley ever mentioned 
it?) and brought it with him. Seems like he could not have convinced 
Bertha Jorkins to go with him unless he had a wand and forced her to 
(Imperius Curse?). She would have smelled rat (pun intended) and 
refused to go.

                                 Elihu





From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  2 13:57:30 2004
From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (Ms Mo Me)
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 05:57:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: McGonagall might be the evil one
In-Reply-To: <20040302074051.43764.qmail@web21401.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20040302135730.4562.qmail@web13506.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91942

Jo wrote: 
> > I probably haven't done my research properly here
> but is McGonagall in 
> > the order? She always seems suspiciously absent.
> Also, everyone else 
> > had an important task to do at the end of GoF,
> what did she do? You've 
> > got to admit she's an unlikely candidate for
> Voldemort's spy but isn't 
> > that sometimes the way?
> 
> 
Elihu's answer: 
> 
> She did show up once at the headquarters of the
> order, and she did seem 
> to be involved with the order at Hogwarts. In
> addition, after Harry saw 
> the attack on Mr. Weasley, she brought him to
> Dumbledore, not the hospital 
> wing.


Right - Also, remember in Ootp she gets hit with
several stunning spells and is taken to St. Mungos? 
HP worries in the end because he says all of the
members of the order are gone from Hogwarts. 
(Forgetting about Snape).
Also, Dumbledore, at one point, tells McGonagall that
they need her there at Hogwarts.

I think she doesn't do a lot of ground work for the
order because she is older and her job is to be kind
of a lookout for trouble and somewhat of a guardian
over HP, especially being in Griffidor. 





From karen.lyall at blueyonder.co.uk  Wed Mar  3 00:49:01 2004
From: karen.lyall at blueyonder.co.uk (karenlyall666)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 00:49:01 -0000
Subject: Freeing House-Elves against their will (was: Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 13)
In-Reply-To: <20040302095052.56114.qmail@web21412.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c23a1t+kk5q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91943

Neri wrote: <snip>

> I think most of us agree that the house elves can't be 
> freed against their own will (that would be an internal 
> contradiction), though I suspect Ron's objection is at 
> least in part just plain wizarding conservatism. 
> 
Elihu's answer:
> 
> What about Winky (for her, "That means clothes" was a threat)? She 
> was freed against her will.


Hi this is my first post and I really hope I get my point over okay 
and follow all the rules.  If I make any mistakes, please be kind.

My thought is: can Hermione leaving these clothes out for the House 
Elves to pick up actually free them.  The only freed Elves we know of 
are Winky and Dobby both of whom where freed by the actions of their 
Master/Owner/Employer (however you want to put it).

Crouch states he will 'give' Winky clothes and the last person to 
handle the sock that free's Dobbie is Malfoy Snr.

Wouldn't the Hogwarts House Elves have to be freed by Dumbledore or 
the current Head of the school?  Some what the same as the only 
person able to sack an employee is their boss, NOT a fellow employ.  

This also brings into question as to wether this is how to get round 
the 'laundry' question I have come across on the list.

I hope all of this was relevant and I made sense.  Thanks for 
listening.

Newbie Karen 
(Posting as karenlyall666)





From mad_maxime at hotmail.com  Wed Mar  3 01:20:36 2004
From: mad_maxime at hotmail.com (mad_maxime)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 01:20:36 -0000
Subject: In the beginning
In-Reply-To: <c23001+p0br@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c23bt4+2enu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91944

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "suehpfan" <stanleys at s...> wrote:
> Sue here:
> <SNIP>
> I think this all goes back to the "essence divided" mentioned in 
> OotP.  I said in another post early on that I believe it is possible 
> that what happened at Godrick's Hollow is that Voldemort's life 
> force was transfered to Harry.  IOW, Harry actually "died" and was 
> immediatly filled with the life force of Tom Riddle by a rebounded 
> curse caused by some sort of charm used by Lilly.  That way Harry 
> gains skills he would not have had and when Voldemort used Harry's 
> blood to regenerate himself they were in "essence" sharing the same 
> life force.  "Neither can live while the other survives."
> 
> Pure wild speculation on my part and much longer than I expected but 
> I find it interesting!


Max:

I agree Sue. Very interesting. Harry and Voldemort sharing the same
life force goes a long way toward explaining many of the 'Potter
Mysteries'.

For instance, it would explain how Harry appropriated various skills
from Voldemort. As others have stated, it seems doubtful that
Voldemort's skill as a parseltongue could simply be transferred
through the AK curse. And to extend this speculation even further, it
might also explain why Voldemort's body was never found. Perhaps it
vaporized once most of the life force was sucked from it. (Although V
was obviously able to retain enough life force to remain a bodiless
entity.) And to take an even wilder leap, it might also explain why
Godric's Hollow was reduced to a pile of rubble. What if there was a
powerful burst of energy when Voldemort's life force was transferred
to Harry. . . powerful enough to destroy everything around them.

And the list continues. . . The powerful psychic connection between
Harry and Voldemort, Dumbledore's 'look of triumph' and his 'In
essence divided' instrument, and the "Neither can live while the other
survives" of the prophecy. If this theory is correct, I'm guessing
that by the time the big show down occurs, it will no longer be
possible for the two physical bodies to continue sharing the same life
force.

There has been a lot of discussion over the past three years that the
'look of triumph' could signify Dumbledore's awareness of a new
vulnerability in Voldemort. If Harry and Voldemort share the same life
force, it makes sense to me that both would now be very vulnerable to
the other. If Harry is able to harness 'the power' within himself that
can "vanquish" Voldemort, he will then have the ability to strike a
blow more powerful than anyone else. Who else, after all, has the
power to pierce Voldemort's armor (Dumbledore?. . . . maybe). If Harry
and Voldemort share the same life force, Harry doesn't have to pierce
V's armor. He's already inside V. so to speak. So he can attack from
the inside out.

Great theory Sue!  Lots of food for thought.

Max 





From drdara at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  3 04:06:33 2004
From: drdara at yahoo.com (danielle dassero)
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 20:06:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Time Travel and Chuck Berry
In-Reply-To: <c20mr5+nri1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040303040633.70247.qmail@web60708.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91945

Look at it this way, sometimes things are meant to be,
meaning that in order for harry to grow up and defeat
moldiemort, he had to grow up as an orphan. However
not all things are meant to be, so time travel can
happen as a way to change something. That's why death
is final, death is something that is meant to be. JKR
doesn't do time travel to suit her, she uses only to
change something that was meant to be. Sirious wasn't
meant to die in Azkaban, he was meant to die fighting
like in OOP, maybe it really was his time in OOP maybe
it wasn't, but it was how Sirious wanted to die.
Danielle 
--- nkafkafi <nkafkafi at yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Robert Jones" wrote:
> Troels Forchhammer in post 91756 responded to how my
> question of how
> time-traveling Harry could produce a Patronus:
> >
> > Harry had seen himself do it - once he realised
> that the person
> > he saw by the lake was himself, he also knew with
> absolute
> certainty
> > that he had indeed seen himself cast the Patronus
> Charm.
> >
> Bobby:
> I still do not understand. At first, both old Harry
> (Harry1) and
> time-traveling Harry (Harry2) do not have the
> confidence to produce
> a Patronus. He (Harry1) does not realize that he
> (Harry2) produced
> it. At first time-traveling Harry (Harry2) does not
> have confidence
> either, but he has time to realize that he (Harry1)
> saw him (Harry2)
> produce a Patronus, and so he (Harry2) now has the
> confidence to do
> it. But this is like the Chuck Berry paradox from
> the movie "Back
> to the Future" where the Michael J. Fox character
> learns Chuck
> Berry's guitar licks off Chuck's records but then
> teaches Chuck
> those same licks over the telephone  so Fox learns
> the licks from
> Berry who learns them from Fox, and so on, and so
> on. In effect the
> earlier Chuck Berry learns his licks from the future
> Chuck Berry.
> So there is no point in this loop for Chuck to
> actually create the
> licks. And the same problem applies to Harry: Harry2
> can make a
> Patronus because Harry1 saw him already do it
> because Harry2 did it
> because Harry1 saw . . . At no point in the loop can
> Harry2 gain
> the confidence to produce the Patronus.
> 
> Neri:
> Yes, you got everything exactly right. I couldn't
> have explained it 
> better. Now all is left for you to do is realize
> that if every step 
> is consistent, then the whole loop, however weird,
> must be correct 
> also. This is how mathematical proofs and magic
> work.
> 
> This is very much like the Mobius strip (if you are
> not familiar with 
> this old trick, go to
> http://scidiv.bcc.ctc.edu/Math/Mobius.html). 
> You know it has only one side, although it sounds
> weird and you can 
> just *see* that it has two sides, but you'll find
> you can draw a line 
> from any point on one side to any point on the
> "other" side, without 
> taking the pen off the paper or going over anedge.
> So there must be 
> only one side, however strange it seems.
> 
> "Robert Jones" wrote:
> 
> Second, Troels Forchhammer responded to me saying
> that JKR permits
> time-travelers to change history:
> 
> > I prefer to believe Hermione's information wrong
> rather than accept
> > an internal inconsistency (allowing changes to the
> past would
> create plot-holes large enough to pass not only
> Hannibal and his
> elephants through, but the Alps as well). That is
> merely a matter of
> personal
> > priority.
> 
> Bobby: But my point is that JKR accepts that
> time-travelers can
> change history and so if she uses it again she can
> do whatever she
> wants to the plot (and that makes it a crumby plot
> device).
> 
> Neri:
> She still has to be consistent, or we will all throw
> the book in 
> disgust. It is actually possible to change history
> and remain 
> consistent (that is, no paradoxes or plot holes) but
> it is very, very 
> difficult. Time-travel is not a trick that enables
> the author to do 
> everything with the plot. It actually makes plotting
> much harder than 
> usual. See #88636 and #88794 for my detailed
> discussion and some 
> weird-but-consistent examples.
> 
> Neri
> 
> 
> 


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From drdara at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  3 04:11:18 2004
From: drdara at yahoo.com (danielle dassero)
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 20:11:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Rats at Hogwarts (was Cedric and Pettigrew)
In-Reply-To: <c20npc+g7jv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040303041118.99097.qmail@web60706.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91946

I think maybe DD knew that scabbers wasn't no ordinary
rat. And he allowed Percy and Ron to bring him to keep
an eye out for him. He may not have known he was Peter
and maybe he did. It could have been a feeling and
that's why he pushed for Lupin in the 3rd year, could
Lupin have been hired after Sirious escaped or was he
hired before. If Lupin was hired after, then maybe DD
thought that scabbers was Peter, think about how DD
willingly believed HHR. Maybe he thought Sirious was
guilty, and then thought about it and just couldn't
believe it and tried to frind the truth.
Danielle D.
--- justcarol67 <justcarol67 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Elihu:
> Maybe because the Weasleys were on close terms with
> Dumbledore, 
> they got special permission to allow their son to
> bring a rat of 
> theirs to school. Dumbledore didn't know that this
> rat is a problem 
> until shortly before Percy graduated.
>  
> Chelle: 
> That's on the First years list. In the first book
> Lee Jordan, a third
> > year is bringing his pet tarantula to Hogwarts.
> Maybe the school wants
> > them to get settled and the idea of what type of
> environment they're
> > supposed to be living in before they decide to
> bring in a complicated
> > pet. I would guess, having a tarantula of my own
> they would have had
> > to rearrange the boys dorm for that year to
> accomidate Lee's pet.
> > It would have had to be something Lee felt
> comfortable with his year
> > mates about. 
> > Could you imagine arriving your first year
> terrified of spiders and
> > your roomate springs a giant tarantula on you?
> Cats, toads, and owls
> > are pretty safe.
> > 
> 
> Carol:
> Actually, rats are pretty safe, too, much more
> intelligent and docile
> than many people give them credit for being. I see
> no reason why
> Dumbledore would not have allowed a silent exception
> to the general
> rule of which kinds of pets would be allowed for the
> Weasleys, who
> didn't have a large income. And he would have made
> the exception
> twice, once for Percy as a first-year (he would have
> acquired Scabbers
> when he was about five) and again for Ron as a
> first-year (Percy gave
> Scabbers to Ron after he was rewarded for becoming a
> prefect by being
> given his own owl, Hermes).
> 
> I don't think that the rule about having a toad OR a
> cat OR an owl is
> absolute in terms of the animals allowed (neither
> Lee's tarantula nor
> Scabbers is shipped back home by the nearest owl). I
> think it's the
> "OR" that's important (and consequently capitalized
> and repeated):
> they're allowed just one animal. I also think that
> the list includes
> the most common and popular pets. If I were DD, I'd
> have strong
> reservations about pet bats and I'd definitely ban
> dogs, but as long
> as the tarantula is kept in his box (and is not an
> acromantula in
> disguise) and the rat spends most of his time in a
> boy's pocket, I
> can't see any reason to make a fuss. Some rules are
> absolute (you
> don't enter the Forbidden Forest without permission)
> and others are
> flexible. If McGonagall can bend the rule about
> first-years not having
> their own brooms, Dumbledore can certainly allow
> first Percy and then
> Ron a pet rat.
> 
> Carol
> 
> 


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From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Wed Mar  3 04:43:32 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 04:43:32 -0000
Subject: Harry and Detention with Dolores
In-Reply-To: <c22sgn+gf8v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c23npk+svhd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91947

snip
bboy_mn said:
> As an illustration of Harry's behavior, let me reference two 
examples
> for real life; Catholic School and English/European Broarding 
Schools.
> 
> Anyone who has been to Catholic school know that physical punishment
> is quite common, and in a sense, the daily routine become like a
> little war between the Nuns and the boys. The boys will go to any
> length, including risk of life and limb, to get one over on the 
Nuns,
> and the Nun dispense ever more cruel and ever more frequent
> punishments with each infraction.
> 
> According to the Code of the Playground, any boy who does not want 
to
> spend the rest of his school years, and potentially the rest of his
> life, being ridiculed makes a super-human effort to not flinch or in
> anyway show pain even under the most severe punishment from the 
Nuns.
> Sadly, many schoolboys are like predators, show the slightest sign 
of
> weakness and they won't hesitate to attack. 
> 
snip
> Just a few thoughts.
> 
> bboy_mn

"Thank you sir, may I have another?"  Kevin Bacon, Animal 
House...Sorry , couldn't resist.
Sue




From drdara at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  3 04:44:50 2004
From: drdara at yahoo.com (danielle dassero)
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 20:44:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: GG and SS the best of friends
Message-ID: <20040303044450.83301.qmail@web60705.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91948

Now the modern day Slytherins are portrayed as evil
little gits. But as we learned in OOP GG and SS were
best friends. So there must have been some redeeming
quality in SS. Now SS not wanting to teach muggle born
children was somewhat predjudicial, but not that bad.
He thought they would be unworthy and not trustworthy,
based upon his own experience amongst muggles.
Hogwarts was probably started when Christianity was
taking over the GReat Britian area, and witches and
wizards were being killed all over. Slytherins then
were probably not evil, just very ambitious, being a
double edged sword, never really taking sides until
someone wins. Not necessarily evil, just looking out
for themselves, just like Sirious gg grandfather said.

So while we lament that there are no good slytherins,
maybe there aren't any now, but remember this maybe
not too long ago slytherins weren't evil, just self
centered.
Danielle 

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From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com  Wed Mar  3 06:48:06 2004
From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 06:48:06 -0000
Subject: Train stomp defence (was Chapter 13)
In-Reply-To: <c22q2n+ssri@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c23v36+935t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91949

> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Laura Ingalls Huntley
> <lhuntley at f...> wrote:
> The OotP scene is a little different in that it was even more
> clear-cut than the GoF scene; the DA members were defending Harry from
> a direct physical or magical assault, as opposed to "merely" being
> taunted beyond endurance with Cedric's death.

It's also notable in that unlike the GoF scene, in which all the hexes were
thrown by Gryffindors, the DA members hexing Draco consisted of 
4 Hufflepuffs and two Ravenclaws; no Gryffindors at all.  A 
promising beginning for unity between houses...

--Arcum




From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Mar  3 09:12:49 2004
From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 09:12:49 -0000
Subject: Elf names
Message-ID: <c247ih+hs27@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91950

The discussion about freeing house-elves has prompted me to ask a 
question that has been bothering me since first reading CoS. JKR is 
usually so good with names, sharing with Dickens a knack of giving 
just the right name to the right character.  Is there any reason why 
she has given such baby names to the house-elves?  They sound like 
something out of Enid Blyton.  Is it to distinguish them from JRRT's 
elves, with their noble, echoing names?  Or is she disguising the 
fact that house-elves are extremely powerful creatures by giving them 
child-like names?  Any ideas?
Sylvia (who is referring to Dobby and Winky, of course, not Kreacher!)




From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  3 08:39:49 2004
From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 00:39:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] GG and SS the best of friends
In-Reply-To: <20040303044450.83301.qmail@web60705.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20040303083949.6818.qmail@web41812.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91951

Danielle writes:
So while we lament that there are no good slytherins,
maybe there aren't any now, but remember this maybe
not too long ago slytherins weren't evil, just self
centered.
 
My (Melanie's) reply:  I think that is kind of jumping to conclusions if one assumes that all of the current Slytherins are evil.  We actually know very little about a good majority of Slytherins, and what we do know is from the prospective of a 15 year old boy who has in the past had some horrific run-ins with the school bully, Draco Malfoy.  
 
Now, I am the first to admit that it does appear that a great deal of Slytherins end up going to the dark side, mostly I would assume because of age old prejudice coming from their families.  
 
But there is at least some evidence to support that there are at least somewhat decent Slytherins at Hogwarts.  I mean some of the students did stand at the feast fourth year.  
 
 
~Melanie



---------------------------------
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From drednort at alphalink.com.au  Wed Mar  3 10:46:25 2004
From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 21:46:25 +1100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry and Detention with Dolores
In-Reply-To: <c22sgn+gf8v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <40465231.25987.F58E29@localhost>

No: HPFGUIDX 91952

On 2 Mar 2004 at 20:57, Steve wrote:

> I have been reading with interest people's comment on whether Harry
> was right or wrong in enduring Umbridge's detentions, and whether it
> was believable behavior for a boy in that circumstances.
> 
> I think we need to remember that kids live in their own private world
> that is run by their own private set of rules; the rules of the
> playground, the Code of Youth. 
> 
> As an illustration of Harry's behavior, let me reference two examples
> for real life; Catholic School and English/European Broarding Schools.
> 
> Anyone who has been to Catholic school know that physical punishment
> is quite common, and in a sense, the daily routine become like a
> little war between the Nuns and the boys. The boys will go to any
> length, including risk of life and limb, to get one over on the Nuns,
> and the Nun dispense ever more cruel and ever more frequent
> punishments with each infraction.

Steve makes some good points here - before I continue though, let 
me point out that the above is a serious stereotype - many Catholic 
schools historically have been like this. Many however are not, and 
haven't been for a long time.

Now, personally, I attended schools *something* like the stereotype 
Steve is using here. Corporal punishment was used - fairly often. I 
experienced it, including some quite severe punishments at time, so 
I'm writing this from that perspective. It is a relevant one.

> According to the Code of the Playground, any boy who does not want to
> spend the rest of his school years, and potentially the rest of his
> life, being ridiculed makes a super-human effort to not flinch or in
> anyway show pain even under the most severe punishment from the Nuns.
> Sadly, many schoolboys are like predators, show the slightest sign of
> weakness and they won't hesitate to attack.

Yes, this is a concern.

Look, I personally, am in favour of controlled corporal punishment 
in schools. My personal experience of it was very positive overall. 
And I know through discussions that most of the people I went to 
school with agree with that position.

Back in around 1970, an American named (IIRC) Paul Mercurio did a 
study of the use of corporal punishment in a New Zealand boys 
school - he found that the use of the cane was both accepted by the 
boys as normal, and expected by the boys. The attitude at my 
school, and hundreds of others around the world until very recently 
was pretty much the same.

Boys - millions of them - simply accepted the use of physical pain 
as a form of punishment.
 
> Plus, there is a matter of pride involved, in the war between the boys
> and the Nuns, the boys swear in internal solumn oath that they will
> never give the Nuns the satisfaction of knowing that their punishment
> got to them. Very much the way Harry refused if give Umbridge the
> satisfaction of knowing her punishents were effecting him.

Definitely.

Nearly all the punishments I received at school were deserved - and 
in those situations, I actually did show signs of pain. The one 
time I was caned for something I felt was totally unfair and 
unjust, I did everything I could to accept it unflinchingly because 
I wasn't going to give the person administering it any 
satisfaction.

> In days gone by, based on movies I've seen, the English/European Boy's
>  Boarding Schools were much the same way. In order to maintain
> discipline in the school, the Prefects were given the power to punish
> students. Being the sadistic power-hungry little demons that they are,
> the punishment grew beyond that authorized by the school, and became a
> sadistic ritual played out amoung the boys. A ritual involving ever
> greater number and with substantially greater force, swats on the bum
> with a cane; not a regular cane but a whipping cane usually bamboo or
> willow. 

Yes, and this was true until *very* recently. In a few schools, 
prefects had the right to use canes (which, just as a matter of 
historical reference, were nearly always made of rattan rather than 
bambook or willow) as late as the 1970s - there may even be a few 
where they had it after that, but I know it was used that late.

In most cases, it wasn't sadistic - movies tend to exagerate that, 
it happened, but it was rare. Generally it was just a normal part 
of life.
 
> Again, the Code of the Playground, or in this case, the Code of Boy's
> Boarding Schools said that you did not give the punisher the
> satisfction of knowing they had the power to hurt you, so you used
> ever fiber of will-power you had, and never let them see you flinch or
> hear you cry out even under the most brutal assault.

In my experience, that depended - it was OK to show pain if you 
deserved the punishment, provided you didn't show too much. If you 
didn't deserve it, you didn't want to show it.

And that is the situation Harry is in.

> Maybe you have to be a boy to understand these things, but what Harry
> did is what any self-respecting school boy would have done; at least
> what any boy would have done up until the not to distant past. Today,
> a boy is more likely to go hire a lawyer and sue the school for a
> small fortune.

It might be useful for people to bear in mind that Order of the 
Phoenix takes place in 1995/1996.

At that time in Britain, it was still legal in private schools for 
students to be caned. I believe the ban came into effect in 1999 - 
I know that in 1998, a survey found that corporal punishment was 
still in use in over 200 British independent schools (at most of 
those, it probably wasn't used very often - but it was still 
officially an option). 

Wizard law is different from Muggle Law - but honestly, I don't 
think Umbridge was breaking British Law at the time by using that 
quill.

[Note - for my University course, I am doing a research project on 
Historical Educational Controversies - and corporal punishment is 
my issue, so I have been researching it. I could reference these 
facts if I had my notes on me].

There's also a factor, I hesitate to mention because it's kind of 
personal - I'm not shy about it, but one of the reasons I loved 
Harry Potter when I first read it, was because I *really* related 
to his feelings with regards to Hogwarts, so I project myself onto 
Harry (also onto Hermione for other reasons).

The following is of *POSSIBLE* relevance because of that projection 
issue.

I had to endure a year of complete and total hell at school when I 
was 12. I was basically abused by my fellow students on a daily 
basis. Eventually psychologists got involved, and made 
recommendations, and I wound up the following year at a very 
different school.

I LOVED it there. For me, it was home. I could really relate to the 
way Harry seems to feel about Hogwarts for that reason. It was a 
marvellous place. I adored it, I worshipped it. [And yes, it had 
corporal punishment.] I developed a fierce loyalty to the school 
because of those feelings I developed about it.

Now - it wasn't a perfect place. Things went wrong occasionally, 
mistakes were made (one of which I alluded to above when I was 
unfairly punished for something), I had teachers like Snape as well 
- never *quite* had an Umbridge.

The thing is though - when those things went wrong... I pretty much 
just accepted them. Why? Because I *trusted* the school. I 
*trusted* the fact that things would sort themselves out over time. 
I *accepted* the occasional failings, partly because I didn't 
expect perfection, partly because I felt the school had earned some 
leniency from me. But also because I knew how bad the alternatives 
could be.

I really wonder if something similar is tied up with Harry and 
Umbridge's quill.

Harry has had four years at Hogwarts - and I think he really likes 
the place. I really wonder if part of the reason he's willing to 
accept Umbridge's abuse is because - well, bad as it is, is it 
worse than winding up living with the Dursleys?

He *knows* how bad things can be. Hogwarts, even under Umbridge, 
may still seem very attractive.


Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia




From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Wed Mar  3 10:46:17 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 10:46:17 -0000
Subject: Kreacher & The Prophecy (was Re: Kreacher)
In-Reply-To: <c22sfu+31o1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c24d1p+ndq2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91953

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" <susiequsie23 at s...> 
wrote:
> 
> Much as it grieves Kneasy that anyone is in this camp, I am one
>  who LIKES Sirius, and still, I frankly can't imagine his caring as 
> much as what you're saying.  And I can't recall reading this in OoP....  
> 

No, it doesn't grieve me at all. I *like* it when the Siriophiles come
out to play. It gives meaning to my existence. How else would be I 
able to point out how sadly mis-guided they are in their adherence
to the Heathcliffe of Grimmauld Place? I don't expect them to change
their views and agree with me - I'd consider it to be unsporting,
ruining the game like that. If they did I might have to re-consider
my stance too.

So, until everyone agrees with me, Sirius is as black as his name.

I may be wrong, but I'm not uncertain.

Kneasy




From falkelihu at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  3 10:47:41 2004
From: falkelihu at yahoo.com (Elihu Falk)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 02:47:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Lupin Teaching to Watch Out For Wormtail(was Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Rats at Hogwarts )
Message-ID: <20040303104741.47334.qmail@web61102.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91954

Danielle D. wrote:
 


I think maybe DD knew that scabbers wasn't no ordinary
rat. And he allowed Percy and Ron to bring him to keep
an eye out for him. He may not have known he was Wormtail
and maybe he did. It could have been a feeling and
that's why he pushed for Lupin in the 3rd year, could
Lupin have been hired after Sirius escaped or was he
hired before. If Lupin was hired after, then maybe DD
thought that Scabbers was Wormtail, think about how DD
willingly believed HHR. Maybe he thought Sirious was
guilty, and then thought about it and just couldn't
believe it and tried to frind the truth.

My (Elihu's)answer:
 
Maybe Dumbledore can tell if someone had been confunded (Might this be an aspect of Leglimens?). He heard Sirius's story, including that HHR saw Scabbers turining into a person who was thought to be dead. He then decided to go check if Harry, Ron and Hermione agreed with that. They did, and they weren't confunded. So he knew that Black was right about some of the story, which would seem impossible if the rest isn't also true.
 
                                      Elihu


---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Search - Find what you?re looking for faster.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





From fever264 at Aol.com  Wed Mar  3 06:56:11 2004
From: fever264 at Aol.com (Frank)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 06:56:11 -0000
Subject: Priori Incantatem - LV's fear
In-Reply-To: <c1t3ui+n05g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c23vib+dr1t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91955

Kristen wrote:
> The question is, why is LV fearful?  I see 3 possibilities:
> 1. his previous victims are circling him (direct implication 
> of text)
> 2. the Phoenix song going through the web (Kristen's previous 
> post)
> 3. Through the connection, LV is being bombarded with Harry's 
> emotions (Morgan's post)
  
Siriusly Snapey Susan replied:
> Might I add a possible #4?  That Voldy is fearful because he 
> does not EXPECT Harry to be able to duel with him?  
> <snip>

leaverish <casieloo at b...> wrote:
> And a possible #5:
> "...and Voldemort's dead victims whispered words of encouragement 
> to Harry, and hissed words Harry couldn't hear to Voldemort."
> And later (on the same page): "...Voldemort, his face now livid 
> with fear as his victims prowled around him..."
> They whisper words of encouragement to Harry, but they HISS words 
> Harry can't hear to LV. HISS? There's a certain animal that is 
> known for hissing, and LV is known for being able to speak it's 
> language. 
> I think this is why we're specifically told that Harry, who speaks 
> this language too, can't hear what they're saying.
> I wonder what they did actually tell LV that scared him so much?



Hello,
 
I am actually new to this site. This is my first post actually, so if 
it's repetative I apologize.
 
I would like to add to the Prior Incantatem "LV fear" when the wands 
were connected during the Duel.
 
One of my theories as to how LV is destroyed ties in with the Prior 
Incantatem of Harry's and Voldemort's wands, specifically the re-
appearance of the victims. I believe the return of LV's Victims 
through the wand might be a (septology) clue that is highly 
significant along the line of LV having to face his worse fears. His 
own fears this time and NOT THE FEARS of everyone else (which I 
believe serve as a "fuel" for LV), THE REALIZATION of his own fears & 
having to face them will lead to the destruction of L.V. He 
will "REAP HIS REWARD" (As DD told harry in book five describing 
Wizard treatment towards houseelves).   

I am a little blurry on the exact story, but it was the story of 
Merlin and his actual mother, who was a witch.
 
She created Merlin and planned to rule with him by her side, however 
Merlin became a good wizard and her plan backfired. She then created 
another child, and he was destroyed by Arthur or Merlin I believe.
 
Merlin's mother was undefeatable, no one could defeat her. However, 
her biggest fear was that she would long be gone and never be 
remembered, hence why she wanted to originally create Merlin and the 
other child.
 
In the end, after her 2nd son was killed, she was in the castle with 
all the town people etc... And appeared...she was defeated when 
everyone that was looking at her, turned around and faced the other 
way, paying no attention to her. As far as they were concerned, she 
no longer existed in their minds, and was ultimately destroyed.
 
I believe that it is the fear of L.V. and people's dark secrets that 
fuel him. 
 
I can see LV being defeated in some similar way. Feel free to add, 
twist, or interpret differently what I have written.
 
I apologize for the facts if they are off, I only recalled what I 
remembered.
 
Frank






From sophierom at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  3 12:48:25 2004
From: sophierom at yahoo.com (sophierom)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 12:48:25 -0000
Subject: Reintroducing myself and a question (second impressions of OoP)
In-Reply-To: <20040302064048.57984.qmail@web41806.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c24k6p+nq7f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91956

<ms_melanie1999 at y...> wrote:
  
"I just finished my second reading of the [OotP], and I must say 
that my thoughts did not really change a great deal in between these 
readings.  However, one thing that did change a  bit upon second 
reading was my thoughts on Hermione.  I adore the girl a great deal, 
but she is quite self-centered and I am becoming more aware of that 
by the day.  She is very concerned with her own agenda and what is 
important to her.  And she is not afraid to get what she wants at 
the expense of other things, I mean she DOES break rules.  Lots of 
them in fact and she consistently does somewhat dangerous things.  I 
realize that she does  these things with good reason.  And for the 
most part I do not have a problem with her actions.  However, 
something I do find myself wondering if there isn't a bit of 
Slytherin in her."

Pippin responded:

"I agree with you that Hermione is in some moral peril, but I don't
relate that to Slytherin potential. The Slytherin creed "any means
to achieve their ends" is a de facto recognition that some means
*are* more ethical than others. They recognize that ethical
standards are external to themselves."

Sophierom:

I actually thought Hermione was in less "moral peril" in OotP than 
in any of the other books.  In the other books, she was more like 
Percy; she tended to believe in the rules for the rules' sake.  That 
can be just as morally dangerous as disregarding the rules 
altogether.  

I actually thought it was Ron who was in trouble morally.  He 
doesn't take much of a stand on anything throughout the book.  For 
all the problems in Hermione's S.P.E.W. campaign, at least she 
believes in something and is acting on it.  For all of Harry's 
teenage angst and self-centered behavior (btw, I thought he was much 
more self centered than Hermione throughout this book!), he also 
acts on his beliefs.  Don't get me wrong; this can be problematic, 
to say the least.  I guess some of the DEs are also acting on their 
beliefs, and they're plain evil.  But I do think Harry and Hermione 
are discovering their moral compasses (which I imagine are wildly 
fluctating along with the teenage hormones!).  

But Ron? He doesn't really stand for anything, particularly as a 
prefect.  He's always playing the pure sidekick to Harry. Of course, 
this is part of his function as a character, I guess.  And, he has 
the problem of the twins.  Don't get me wrong, I like Ron a lot, but 
I think he's by far the weakest of the trio.  If we could condense 
MWPP into 3, Harry would represent a bit of his father and 
godfather, Hermione acts most like Lupin, and Ron is Peter 
Pettigrew.   

Best,
Sophierom




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Wed Mar  3 13:15:10 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 13:15:10 -0000
Subject: Kreacher & The Prophecy (was Re: Kreacher)
In-Reply-To: <c24d1p+ndq2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c24lou+ia04@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91957

Siriusly Snapey Susan wrote:
> > Much as it grieves Kneasy that anyone is in this camp, I am one
> >  who LIKES Sirius, and still, I frankly can't imagine his caring as 
> > much as what you're saying.  And I can't recall reading this in 
> > OoP....  


And Kneasy replied: 
> No, it doesn't grieve me at all. I *like* it when the Siriophiles 
> come out to play. It gives meaning to my existence. How else would be
> I  able to point out how sadly mis-guided they are in their adherence
> to the Heathcliffe of Grimmauld Place? I don't expect them to change
> their views and agree with me - I'd consider it to be unsporting,
> ruining the game like that. If they did I might have to re-consider
> my stance too.
> 
> So, until everyone agrees with me, Sirius is as black as his name.
> 
> I may be wrong, but I'm not uncertain.
> 
> Kneasy

Siriusly Snapey Susan again:
"I may be wrong, but I'm not uncertain."  Ahhhh, a noble creed,
Kneasy.  I'm such an over-cautious,
don't-want-to-offend-anyone-with-my-views kind of person that I could
take a lesson or two from you in this. ;-)

I love the "Heathcliffe of Grimmauld Place" asignation; a very
evocative picture that paints!  

So, Kneasy, since you like us Siriophiles to come out & play, I'll
have to ask you to weigh in on this one.  Should Sirius have been more
forward-thinking in regards to Kreacher?  Should he have known the
danger of having him about and dismissed him, consequences to Kreacher
be damned?  Was this more arrogance on Sirius' part, his rash belief
that he could control Kreacher?  Or is Pippin right, that Sirius kept
Kreacher out of a sense of obligation...displaying, perhaps, a bit of
the NOBLE Black?

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Wed Mar  3 13:27:29 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 13:27:29 -0000
Subject: Filed under - Why didn't they....?
In-Reply-To: <c23aeh+og37@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c24mg1+g1fa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91959

Steve <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
> > So we must ask, why didn't they think of these two perfectly good
> > excuses [1--Room of Requirement provides what is required; 2--names
> > on the list were there from the now-established-to-be-LEGAL 1st 
> > mtg.]to get out of this trouble?
> > 
> > Well the most obvious answer is that if they had used them, it 
> > would have messed up the story. JKR needed to get Dumbledore out of
> > the castle, and this was her method.
> > 
Kristen replied:
> More than the heat of the moment, you also have to assume that Fudge 
> and Umbridge would accept the truth if it were presented to them.  
> All of the options involving truth require them to trust Dumbledore 
> and/or Harry on the explanation.  Everything to that point in the 
> book pointed to the fact that Dumbledore and Harry were discredited 
> and no longer trusted by the ministry.  The initial setup looked like 
> another excuse to expel Harry, the ensuing actions allowed 
> Dumbledore - who had other means of survival and avoidance of the 
> ministry, the opportunity to take the rap and protect Harry.  At 
> least, that is my 2 knuts.
> 

Siriusly Snapey Susan:
I agree with Kristen, particularly this last point.  I think it was
DD's attempt to deflect blame *and attention* from Harry, at least for
awhile.  I think everyone knew it wouldn't be a lasting solution, but
it would perhaps buy a little time for Harry and keep him at Hogwarts.  
Your point about DD having means of survival unavailable to Harry is
important.  

This also makes me wonder.  [I don't have my book w/ me, as I'm
(shhhh!!) at work.]  Did DD know Umbridge would become acting
Headmistress this time?  Typically when he's been called/sent away,
McGonagall has been left in charge.  Surely DD didn't think she'd be
allowed to be in charge this time?  Or did he trust her to "handle
things" even if not officially in charge?  What do you all think? 
Just how deep is DD's faith & trust in Minerva?

Siriusly Snapey Susan






From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Wed Mar  3 13:37:20 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 13:37:20 -0000
Subject: In the beginning
In-Reply-To: <c23bt4+2enu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c24n2g+57qf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91960

> > Sue here:
> > <SNIP>
> > I think this all goes back to the "essence divided" mentioned in 
> > OotP.  I said in another post early on that I believe it is possible 
> > that what happened at Godrick's Hollow is that Voldemort's life 
> > force was transfered to Harry.  IOW, Harry actually "died" and was 
> > immediatly filled with the life force of Tom Riddle by a rebounded 
> > curse caused by some sort of charm used by Lilly.  That way Harry 
> > gains skills he would not have had and when Voldemort used Harry's 
> > blood to regenerate himself they were in "essence" sharing the same 
> > life force.  "Neither can live while the other survives."
> > 
 
> Max:
> For instance, it would explain how Harry appropriated various skills
> from Voldemort. <snip> it might also explain why Voldemort's body was
> never found. Perhaps it vaporized once most of the life force was 
> sucked from it. (Although V was obviously able to retain enough life 
> force to remain a bodiless entity.) And to take an even wilder leap, 
> it might also explain why Godric's Hollow was reduced to a pile of 
> rubble. What if there was a powerful burst of energy when Voldemort's
> life force was transferred to Harry. . . powerful enough to destroy 
> everything around them.
<snip>
> There has been a lot of discussion over the past three years that the
> 'look of triumph' could signify Dumbledore's awareness of a new
> vulnerability in Voldemort. If Harry and Voldemort share the same 
> life force, it makes sense to me that both would now be very 
> vulnerable to the other. If Harry is able to harness 'the power' 
> within himself that can "vanquish" Voldemort, he will then have the 
> ability to strike a blow more powerful than anyone else. Who else, 
> after all, has the power to pierce Voldemort's armor (Dumbledore?. .
> . . maybe). If Harry and Voldemort share the same life force, Harry 
> doesn't have to pierce V's armor. He's already inside V. so to speak.
> So he can attack from the inside out.

Siriusly Snapey Susan now:
Okay, Max & Sue.  Can you go a little further with this theory?  Can
you explain how you see the conclusion?  This almost seems to
necessitate Harry's death in the end, does it not?  

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From lizvega2 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  3 15:06:15 2004
From: lizvega2 at yahoo.com (lizvega2)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 15:06:15 -0000
Subject: Voldemort's Wand
In-Reply-To: <c225vs+e977@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c24s97+se9k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91961

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "elihufalk" <elihufalk at y...> 
wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ilexrdh" <ilexrdh at y...> 
wrote:
> <snip> 
> > If he became almost a ghost-like creature when his spell to kill 
> > Harry backfired on him & by his own admission "couldn't use a 
wand 
> > to perform the spells that would have helped him" (that's not a 
> > direct quote, but you'll remember that bit of the 
story).......HOW 
> > DID HE GET HIS WAND BACK?????????  > > 
> Elihu's answer:
> 
> Maybe Voldemort's wand was taken by the ministry for safe keeping, 
> and Wormtail figured out where (had Arther Weasley ever mentioned 
> it?) and brought it with him. Seems like he could not have 
convinced 
> Bertha Jorkins to go with him unless he had a wand and forced her 
to 
> (Imperius Curse?). She would have smelled rat (pun intended) and 
> refused to go.
> 
>                                  Elihu

LizVega here:

Jo has made a few mistakes, but I don't think this is one of them. 
She knew before even finishing PS that one day LV would return, and 
he would need HIS wand- The wand containing Fawkes' other feather. 
She's been keeping it safe for him somewhere, perhaps the mystery 
guest at the Potter's cottage on Halloween was holding it for him? 
If it had been Wormtail, why didn't LV mention it when he was 
telling the DE's how he came back? 

Come to think of it, didn't Wormtail produce a set of robes, which 
LV pulled the wand out of, after he resurrected? Someone else was at 
the Potter's house, and it may have been Wormtail, Sirius went to 
his hiding place and he wasn't there, but then he went to the 
Potters, and he wasn't there either. Sirius didn't mention seeing 
anyone else there, but in the state he was probably in, he wasn't 
looking around. 

   




From lizvega2 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  3 15:12:42 2004
From: lizvega2 at yahoo.com (lizvega2)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 15:12:42 -0000
Subject: All the questions I know the answers to!
Message-ID: <c24sla+d9n8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91962

I've read enough interviews and chats with Jo to know who her 
favorite authors are, what her favorite books are, how she came up 
with the idea for Harry, and her advice for aspiring authors. 

When the chat takes place tomorrow, I wish people wouldn't ask her 
questions we've heard so many times before. I know I sound jaded, 
and perhaps I am, I should be happy that people are turning on to 
Harry, but it just seems like a waste when someone could be craftily 
asking her which house the marauders were in, or if there's any 
significance to socks! Very important stuff!

LizVega, who is upset by the Bloomsbury editor's comment about the 
sixth book not coming out until 2005, or 2006! Hmph. 




From rredordead at aol.com  Wed Mar  3 15:21:36 2004
From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 15:21:36 -0000
Subject: Slytherins/DE and Girls
In-Reply-To: <c23744+3jej@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c24t60+ritg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91963

> Meri wrote:
> Wow, I wasn't expecting my little innuendo to spark a whole love-
> hate discussion. I was really just making a little, kind of gross 
> joke, about some sort of twisted DE version of Seven Minutes in 
> Heaven. My original point was that as Bellatrix is the only female 
> DE that we know of at the moment, there must be something about 
her (ie: a romantic, or more likely physical, relationship between 
her and LV) that confirms for him her loyalty to the cause and to 
him. <snip> (This brings up a whole new thing: who would Sirius 
Black's intended have been? As a member of a great pure-blood house 
he was probably set up at a young age to be married, but to whom? A 
LeStrange? A Malfoy? A Weasley? Ahh, too OT!!!!)

Mandy here:
I love it when that happens.  When you post one thought, but 
everyone jumps on another seemingly unrelated point. And I think I'm 
about to do it again. ;-)  

But firstly though, I agree with Bella your point that Bella seemed 
unconcerned about her husband in the MoM battle, but then we only 
have Harry POV and knowing how much he hates Bella, I doubt we'll 
ever get to see a 'good' side of her character, or indeed anything 
showing her 'good' feelings or intentions.  Why would we want to you 
might ask?  But I would as it would make for a more convincing 3 
dimensional character, much more interesting than a screaming, 
murderous banshee imo.

But now to you seemingly less important (only because it's in 
parentheses) but interesting point. ;-) Who was Sirius' intended?  
Knowing how the WW like to marry young, and working with the idea 
that there is a limited number of prospective pure-blood candidates 
for marriage, parents would feel the need to hook up their offspring 
as soon as possible to avoid missing out.  It stands to reason then 
that the children of pure blooded families were most likely 
betrothed or promised to each other quite young. As teens.  Will 
some of the purebloods, Draco perhaps be dealing with this in the 
next book? But back to your point I wonder who Sirius and his 
brother Regulus were supposed to marry.  Could it have been Weasley? 
Was there a Malfoy or Lestrange sister we haven't met yet? Or what 
about the most obvious and purest connection with one of their own 
cousins - the Black sisters?  Perhaps this is what sparked Sirius 
disconnection with this own family, his refusal to marry the 'right' 
girl, and the fall out from that.

Just some silly ideas, Mandy





From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com  Wed Mar  3 16:08:44 2004
From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 16:08:44 -0000
Subject: FILK: This Tattered Old Book
Message-ID: <c24vuc+f6gt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91964

Song #2 from the CoS Musical, A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to 
the Chamber

This Tattered Old Book (CoS, Chap. 13)

To the tune of that That Dirty Old Man, from  Sondheim's A Funny 
Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum 

A brief MIDI can be heard here:

http://www.bway2.com/tracks/forum/

Dedicated to Suzanne Chiles

THE SCENE: HARRY'S bedroom at Gryffindor, as he dialogues with the 
diary of TOM RIDDLE.

TOM RIDDLE
For over fifty years,
I've been trapped on this page
Once hailed by all my peers
Because the terror I encaged!
My service to the school
Forgotten now by all
I now think you've a need to see
What happened on this hall
Ohhhh . . .

I'll show you,
I'll show you,
Now hear me
This tattered old book can give to you 
A Chamber of Secrets overview
Let's flip ahead to the month of June
It's now the 13th nearing High Noon
..

HARRY
I trust him, 
He'll guide me
Where am I?
This tattered old book 
Now shows to me
Some previous Hogwarts history,
Tom Riddle is with some giant kid
Accusing him (oh no, it's Hagrid!) 

(HARRY sees the young HAGRID, defending his Aragog from RIDDLE's 
accusations)

TOM RIDDLE
Oh, Rub,
Old Rub,
I'll tell

HAGRID
My Aragog ain't no villain!

TOM RIDDLE
Confess,
Repress
Your pal!

HAGRID
Whatever you say, I know he isn't guilty

TOM RIDDLE
Your monster
Is killing
As if by assembly line.

HAGRID
I love him


(Aragog flees as RIDDLE raises his wand)

HARRY
He ope'd it,
That creature-prone, crude, criminalous, crackpot, cranky, crazy,
Creepy old friend of mine!

   -	CMC

NoTE: "Criminalous" is not a real word, but I couldn't find any good 
four-syllable word beginning with "cr"

HARRY POTTER FILKS 
http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm 





From norek_archives2 at hotmail.com  Wed Mar  3 16:39:09 2004
From: norek_archives2 at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 16:39:09 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Slytherins/DE and Girls
Message-ID: <BAY2-F95GxgelXDeqoM0000376e@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91965

ghingapuss wrote:

>But now to you seemingly less important (only because it's in
>parentheses) but interesting point. ;-) Who was Sirius' intended?
>Knowing how the WW like to marry young, and working with the idea
>that there is a limited number of prospective pure-blood candidates
>for marriage, parents would feel the need to hook up their offspring
>as soon as possible to avoid missing out.  It stands to reason then
>that the children of pure blooded families were most likely
>betrothed or promised to each other quite young. As teens.  Will
>some of the purebloods, Draco perhaps be dealing with this in the
>next book?

I think this is interesting as well.  Draco is the only son of a wealthy and 
socially prominent family (well, they were socially prominent until Lucius 
Malfoy went to jail ...) and would therefore be considered extremely 
eligible, especially since he's not bad looking.  (Okay, he's no Orlando 
Bloom, but look at the other prominent purebloods of his year -- Crabbe and 
Goyle and that stringy guy whose name we keep wondering.  As with the 
Prefect question, it's not so much that he's good as that all the other 
alternatives are worse.)

So what will Narcissa Malfoy (in the absence of her husband) do to promote 
an appropriate marriage for her son?  I suggest that during the summer, when 
Draco is at home, she'll start a program of parties at home, inviting 
eligible pureblood families with daughters, and also that they'll start 
travelling, visiting the homes of those families.  (It's been pointed out 
that other than at Hogwarts, there aren't very many opportunities for young 
people to see each other socially in the WW.)

Has Draco been seen in the company of anyone other than Pansy Parkinson?  I 
don't think so; they are partners in classes, run around together at other 
times, and he takes her to the Yule Ball.  If he's got a girlfriend other 
than her, Harry (and therefore the reader) hasn't seen it.


Janet Anderson

_________________________________________________________________
Learn how to help protect your privacy and prevent fraud online at Tech 
Hacks & Scams. http://special.msn.com/msnbc/techsafety.armx




From lizvega2 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  3 17:07:35 2004
From: lizvega2 at yahoo.com (lizvega2)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 17:07:35 -0000
Subject: LV's attitude toward women/Sirius' intended (Was:Slytherins/DE and Girls)
In-Reply-To: <c24t60+ritg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c253cn+rsji@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91966

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" 
<rredordead at a...> wrote:
> > Meri wrote:
> >  My original point was that as Bellatrix is the only female 
> > DE that we know of at the moment, there must be something about 
> her (ie: a romantic, or more likely physical, relationship between 
> her and LV) that confirms for him her loyalty to the cause and to 
> him. 

LizVega callously interrupting:)

We do have a little information regarding LV and women in general. 
His mother was a witch, and most likely the carrier of SS' blood 
that LV is so proud of. In COS when LV is telling Harry about his 
history, his anamosity rests solely with his father. He didn't say 
one negative word about his mother abandoning him in death. I wonder 
how it affected him though. 

When LV is trying to murder Harry when he was a baby, he didn't just 
kill Lilly, for whatever reasons, he told her to move. Perhaps he 
would've killed her after he killed Harry, but we, the reader, are 
told that he tells her to move.   

In GOF, the graveyard scene, LV talks of 'the Lestrange's', and is 
almost kind in his description of their devotion, not for Bella 
specifically, but as a 'couple'. 

In OOP, LV calls her, 'Bella'- a nickname?, Everyone else is 
referred to by their last names. Also, LV takes her with him when he 
leaves, granted she's right there trapped under a statue and 
everyone else is trapped in the death chamber, but I think it's 
noteworthy that he takes her with him, haven't we been told that LV 
is just as cruel to his followers as he is toward his enemies?

What to make of LV's attitude toward women? I think it may be the 
only soft spot he's got. Not a whole lot of proof for this, but Jo 
didn't just create some two-dimensional black-clad-bad-guy. Even 
Hitler had a girlfriend.   

<snip> (This brings up a whole new thing: who would Sirius 
> Black's intended have been? As a member of a great pure-blood 
house 
> he was probably set up at a young age to be married, but to whom? 
A 
> LeStrange? A Malfoy? A Weasley? Ahh, too OT!!!!)
> 
> Perhaps he was intended for Florence, the girl Bertha Jorkins told 
DD about in the pensieve. She never says WHO she caught kissing 
Florence, and Sirius refers to Bertha later as nosy. Also, Bertha 
was hexed by the mystery man, Sirius didn't have trouble hexing 
people he didn't like back then!




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Mar  3 17:20:24 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 17:20:24 -0000
Subject: Filed under - Why didn't they....?
In-Reply-To: <c239tc+mdsk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2544o+50n7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91967

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" 
<bboy_mn at y...> wrote:

> The only way out is for Dumbledore to take the blame himself 
in order to get Harry off the hook. But wait...
> 
> That list was created during the first D.A. Hog's Head meeting 
which, it has already been established, was not illegal. There 
were even witnesses. In fact, Umbridge's own witness, Willy 
Widdershins, as wellas the Innkeeper, would have seen the 
students sign the list. That would make the list nothing more 
than a record of who attended the first meeting, and 
consequently, of no value in proving anything about what may or 
may not have happened after the list was created. 

<<snip>>>. 

> So we must ask, why didn't they think of these two perfectly 
good excuses to get out of this trouble?<

Er, because they wouldn't have worked. I agree with those who 
say the Room can't conjure things that don't exist--but that's 
secondary. The point is that the list is genuine and Fudge and 
Umbridge are going to need more than Dumbledore's word to 
make them believe it isn't.

Worse, it must have included people like Seamus who 
weren't at the meeting at the Hogs Head.  Umbridge could have 
thrown everyone on the list into detention until one of them was 
willing to tell her the truth. Since none of them knew about 
Hermione's  hex, that wouldn't have taken very long.

Pippin 




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Mar  3 17:28:27 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 17:28:27 -0000
Subject: Slytherin Morality was Re: Reintroducing myself and a
In-Reply-To: <c23d0i+kmom@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c254jr+g4hb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91968

Pippin previously
>  I agree with you that Hermione is in some moral peril, but I 
don't  relate that to Slytherin potential. The Slytherin creed  "any 
means  to achieve their ends" is a de facto recognition that some 
means  *are* more ethical than others. They recognize that 
ethical  standards are external to themselves.<<

Nora:
>>Could you expand on that?  I really don't see how you can get 
that out of '*any* means to achieve their ends'.  That seems, at 
least to my reading, to emphasis the instrumentality and disrupt 
any conception of a discernible hierarchy--anything that one can 
do is okay, so long as the end is achieved.  Which goes directly 
contrary to such fundamental moral conceptions as the 
Categorical Imperative, which in its expanded versions argues 
that one must treat all people as *ends in and of themselves*, 
and not as means to an end--as subjects, not as objects.  In 
other words, that motto lends itself very easily to amorality (of 
which Voldemort is the living embodiment, of course...)<<

Pippin replies:
Presumably the Hat describes the Houses as they would 
describe themselves. So the Slytherins are  consciously amoral 
and they regard this as a distinguishing characteristic. To me 
this implies moral awareness of a sort--even though it's 
negative.  

 It's like Hermione and the crumple-horned snorkack (or an 
atheist and God) --it takes a certain awareness of the  concept in 
order to reject it. Hermione has no place in her belief system  for 
the snorkack, but she'd recognize it if she saw one.  On the other 
hand, she's unable to recognize that she's being unfair to the 
Elves. In this, she's very different from the Slytherins, who 
generally know exactly what they're getting away with.


Pippin




From mad_maxime at hotmail.com  Wed Mar  3 14:12:37 2004
From: mad_maxime at hotmail.com (mad_maxime)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 14:12:37 -0000
Subject: In the beginning
In-Reply-To: <c24n2g+57qf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c24p4l+4rk4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91969

> Siriusly Snapey Susan now:
> Okay, Max & Sue.  Can you go a little further with this theory?  Can
> you explain how you see the conclusion?  This almost seems to
> necessitate Harry's death in the end, does it not?  

Max:

I hadn't thought that far ahead - LOL!  No seriously, I guess the
analogy I would use would be a pair of Simease Twins with one heart.
Neither can live while the other survives.  But if they are separated,
one will die while the other now has a chance to live.

Max 





From pulpficlet at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  3 16:52:44 2004
From: pulpficlet at yahoo.com (pulpficlet)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 16:52:44 -0000
Subject: GG and SS the best of friends
In-Reply-To: <20040303044450.83301.qmail@web60705.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c252gs+bvg3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91970

Danielle wrote:

> Now the modern day Slytherins are portrayed as evil
> little gits. But as we learned in OOP GG and SS were
> best friends. So there must have been some redeeming
> quality in SS. 

Perhaps.  But it is possible to have someone as a friend when you 
don't know them that well.  As you become more familiar, it is 
possible to realize that they weren't all that they seemed to be.  Or 
in Salazar Slytherin's case, more than he seemed to be.

>Now SS not wanting to teach muggle born
> children was somewhat predjudicial, but not that bad.
> He thought they would be unworthy and not trustworthy,
> based upon his own experience amongst muggles.

Yes, but . . . isn't that the basis of much of society's prejudice, 
discrimination and hatred?  "I have experience with that group, and 
based on my experience I have decided that group is 
inferior/untrustworthy."  


> Hogwarts was probably started when Christianity was
> taking over the GReat Britian area, and witches and
> wizards were being killed all over. Slytherins then
> were probably not evil, just very ambitious, being a
> double edged sword, never really taking sides until
> someone wins. Not necessarily evil, just looking out
> for themselves, just like Sirious gg grandfather said.

There's nothing wrong with self-preservation.  The question is the 
morality of the steps one takes to preserve one's self.  If the steps 
are loathing of other groups, that is more than ambition.


That's my opinion, anyway.

Paula





From pulpficlet at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  3 16:56:51 2004
From: pulpficlet at yahoo.com (pulpficlet)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 16:56:51 -0000
Subject: Elf names
In-Reply-To: <c247ih+hs27@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c252oj+q3eh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91972

Sylvia wrote:

>Or is she disguising the 
> fact that house-elves are extremely powerful creatures by giving 
them 
> child-like names?  Any ideas?
> Sylvia (who is referring to Dobby and Winky, of course, not 
Kreacher!)

I think the more childish names represent how the books used to be 
more like fairy tales, whereas now JKR is trying to make them more 
adult.  I appreciate the effort, because I've never been sure that 
the names Winky and Dobby mean anything, whereas Kreacher seems to be 
a very appropriate name for that character.

Paula





From armadillof at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  3 16:36:01 2004
From: armadillof at yahoo.com (armadillof)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 16:36:01 -0000
Subject: Voldemort's Wand
In-Reply-To: <c24s97+se9k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c251hh+tg10@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91973

LizVega wrote:
> Someone else was at the Potter's house, and it may 
> have been Wormtail, Sirius went to his hiding place 
> and he wasn't there, but then he went to the Potters, 
> and he wasn't there either. Sirius didn't mention 
> seeing anyone else there, but in the state he was 
> probably in, he wasn't looking around.

Just out of curiosity... which chapter is it in which book (although 
I'm probably able to figure out which book by the title :P) where it 
is stated that there is another guest at the house in Godric's 
Hollow in which the Potters hid?

AF....who's wondering what happened to Harry's regular house & 
family heirlooms :/  I guess they're not that relevant now.




From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Wed Mar  3 18:32:05 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 18:32:05 -0000
Subject: Priori Incantatem - LV's fear
In-Reply-To: <c1t3ui+n05g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c258b5+8ojo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91974

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "leaverish" <casieloo at b...> wrote:
> Kristen wrote:
> > > 
> > > > The question is, why is LV fearful?  I see 3 possibilities:
> > > > 1. his previous victims are circling him (direct implication of 
> > > text)
> > > > 2. the Phoenix song going through the web (Kristen's previous 
> > post)
> > > > 3. Through the connection, LV is being bombarded with Harry's 
> > > > emotions (Morgan's post)
>  
> Siriusly Snapey Susan replied:
> > > Might I add a possible #4?  That Voldy is fearful because he does 
> > > not EXPECT Harry to be able to duel with him?  
> <snip>
> And a possible #5:
> "...and Voldemort's dead victims whispered words of encouragement to 
> Harry, and hissed words Harry couldn't hear to Voldemort."
> And later (on the same page): "...Voldemort, his face now livid with 
> fear as his victims prowled around him..."
> They whisper words of encouragement to Harry, but they HISS words 
> Harry can't hear to LV. HISS? There's a certain animal that is known 
> for hissing, and LV is known for being able to speak it's language. I 
> think this is why we're specifically told that Harry, who speaks this 
> language too, can't hear what they're saying.
> I wonder what they did actually tell LV that scared him so much?




From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Wed Mar  3 18:47:03 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 18:47:03 -0000
Subject: Priori Incantatem - LV's fear
In-Reply-To: <c1ss1p+5uv8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c25977+peud@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91975

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" <susiequsie23 at s...> 
wrote:
> Kristen wrote:
> 
> <BIG snip of discussion of the Voldy-Harry graveyard duel> 
> 
> > The question is, why is LV fearful?  I see 3 possibilities:
> > 1. his previous victims are circling him (direct implication of 
> text)
> > 2. the Phoenix song going through the web (Kristen's previous post)
> > 3. Through the connection, LV is being bombarded with Harry's 
> > emotions (Morgan's post)
> > 
> 
> Might I add a possible #4?  That Voldy is fearful because he does 
> not EXPECT Harry to be able to duel with him?  He has--at least 
> outwardly--been belittling Harry and implying that he's a nothing.  
> Then the duel begins, and Harry proves to be QUITE strong.  Voldy 
> has to be shocked both by the "reappearance" of his previous victims 
> and by Harry's ability to hang in there in the battle.  I would 
> think that might strike true terror into him, esp. when he 
> presumably thought he would be able to deal with Potter in quite 
> short order.

Just for once I won't be pushing my own opinions on this thread.
Mainly because it's been dissected in far finer fashion than I could 
manage. I urge all those interested in this aspect of the saga to rush
to Bluesqueak's post 40044 The Spying Game Part II "I want you to
die, Mr Potter".

It's hellishly long but is probably the definitive analysis of the grave-
yard scene and associated plot lines. I don't necessarily agree with
every word, but it's a must-read for anyone posting on this subject.

Oh, and apologies to the Elves for hitting the wrong button and 
sending a non-post onto the board. I grovel. Obsequiously.

Kneasy




From deadlyvampirekat at aol.com  Wed Mar  3 17:26:51 2004
From: deadlyvampirekat at aol.com (deadlyvampirekat at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 12:26:51 EST
Subject: Dealing w/ Kreacher
Message-ID: <1d7.1b2fc753.2d776f5b@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91976

Tyler wrote: 
> Anyway,  here it is:  I was re-reading OotP the other
> day when it occured to me,  when Sirius handed over
> his parents' house to Dumbledore why didn't he just
> put a memory charm on Kreacher and give him clothes?

Hi!

It could be that if Sirius was to have given Kreacher clothes and freed him, 
he would have been released from any spells cast apon him, returning his 
memories of the Order etc...

Just a thought,
Cassie
x




From mtluinmist at yahoo.com.au  Wed Mar  3 14:49:36 2004
From: mtluinmist at yahoo.com.au (mtluinmist)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 14:49:36 -0000
Subject: Time Travel and Chuck Berry
In-Reply-To: <20040303040633.70247.qmail@web60708.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c24ra0+je40@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91977

Bobby wrote:
> I still do not understand. At first, both old Harry (Harry1) 
> and time-traveling Harry (Harry2) do not have the confidence 
> to produce a Patronus. He (Harry1) does not realize that he 
> (Harry2) produced it. At first time-traveling Harry (Harry2) 
> does not have confidence either, but he has time to realize 
> that he (Harry1) saw him (Harry2) produce a Patronus, and 
> so he (Harry2) now has the confidence to do it.

Hi.  This is my first post.

I just wanted to mention that Harry had already produced, in Lupin's 
words, "quite some Patronus" several chapters before Harry1 and 
Harry2.  It was at the Gryffindor/Ravenclaw match in Chapter 13.  
Harry2 produced his Patronus in Chapter 21.

Stuka




From psychobirdgirl at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  3 19:03:50 2004
From: psychobirdgirl at yahoo.com (psychobirdgirl)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 19:03:50 -0000
Subject: In the beginning
In-Reply-To: <c24p4l+4rk4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c25a6m+t304@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91978

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mad_maxime" <mad_maxime at h...> 
wrote:
> > Siriusly Snapey Susan now:
> > Okay, Max & Sue.  Can you go a little further with this theory?  
Can
> > you explain how you see the conclusion?  This almost seems to
> > necessitate Harry's death in the end, does it not?  
> 
> Max:
> 
> I hadn't thought that far ahead - LOL!  No seriously, I guess the
> analogy I would use would be a pair of Simease Twins with one 
heart.
> Neither can live while the other survives.  But if they are 
separated,
> one will die while the other now has a chance to live.
> 
> Max


Psychobirdgirl(me):

So from this theory one soulc extrapolate a possible ending where 
Harry tries to attack Voldemort from within his own body, right?

Therefore one could go a step further and get a possible ending with 
Harry's body dead but Voldemort's soul dead, right?

Then, one step further, you could have an end in which Harry is 
alive in spirit in Voldemort's body, while Harry's body is dead but 
with it voldemort's spirit, wich could happen with thier souls being 
forced like the beads between the wands, right?

So then what happens if there are no witnesses, and when it is all 
over Harrymort stumbles out looking for congratulations, just to be 
hit by a combined AK from Ron, Neville, etc.


psychobirdgirl
(still confused as to whether this is what they were suggesting or 
if I missed the point completely.)





From psychobirdgirl at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  3 19:05:40 2004
From: psychobirdgirl at yahoo.com (psychobirdgirl)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 19:05:40 -0000
Subject: In the beginning
In-Reply-To: <c24p4l+4rk4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c25aa4+5a25@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91979

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mad_maxime" <mad_maxime at h...> 
wrote:
> > Siriusly Snapey Susan now:
> > Okay, Max & Sue.  Can you go a little further with this theory?  
Can
> > you explain how you see the conclusion?  This almost seems to
> > necessitate Harry's death in the end, does it not?  
> 
> Max:
> 
> I hadn't thought that far ahead - LOL!  No seriously, I guess the
> analogy I would use would be a pair of Simease Twins with one 
heart.
> Neither can live while the other survives.  But if they are 
separated,
> one will die while the other now has a chance to live.
> 
> Max


Psychobirdgirl(me):

So from this theory one soulc extrapolate a possible ending where 
Harry tries to attack Voldemort from within his own body, right?

Therefore one could go a step further and get a possible ending with 
Harry's body dead but Voldemort's soul dead, right?

Then, one step further, you could have an end in which Harry is 
alive in spirit in Voldemort's body, while Harry's body is dead but 
with it voldemort's spirit, wich could happen with thier souls being 
forced like the beads between the wands, right?

So then what happens if there are no witnesses, and when it is all 
over Harrymort stumbles out looking for congratulations, just to be 
hit by a combined AK from Ron, Neville, etc.


psychobirdgirl
(still confused as to whether this is what they were suggesting or 
if I missed the point completely.)





From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Wed Mar  3 19:27:04 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 19:27:04 -0000
Subject: In the beginning
In-Reply-To: <c24n2g+57qf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c25bi8+ljl8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91980

 Sue here:
<SNIP>
they (Harry and Voldemort) were in "essence" sharing the same 
life force.  "Neither can live while the other survives."
Max:
For instance, it would explain how Harry appropriated various skills
from Voldemort. <snip> it might also explain why Voldemort's body was
never found. Perhaps it vaporized once most of the life force was 
sucked from it. (Although V was obviously able to retain enough life 
force to remain a bodiless entity.) And to take an even wilder leap, 
it might also explain why Godric's Hollow was reduced to a pile of 
rubble. 
snip 
> Siriusly Snapey Susan now:
> Okay, Max & Sue.  Can you go a little further with this theory?  Can
> you explain how you see the conclusion?  This almost seems to
> necessitate Harry's death in the end, does it not?  
> 
> Siriusly Snapey Susan

Here's what I think...Voldemort was not "supposed" to survive what 
happened in GH.  His time was done.  Unfortunately, what 
ever "dangerous transformations" he underwent prevented his death as 
we understand it.  Voldemort is a sort of parasite, sharing 
Harry's "life force" and even drawing it from him, the longer he 
maintains a body the more entwined Harry and Voldemort will become.  
In the end Harry will have to extract himself (and all of the "life 
force") completely from Voldemort and when that happens Voldemort 
will die (really this time).  

Based on how I see it, if *Harry* were to die, that would mean 
Voldemort would go on to live for a very long time.  Harry has to 
survive and keep the "life force" within himself in order to save the 
WW from a long reign of terror by the "Dark Lord".  In the end, the 
battle (as other posters have also written) will take place inside 
Harry's head or on some other plane and will envolve the force of a 
sort of "mental Patronus".

As I said before, this is way far fetched and I'm not even sure I 
believe this is how the story will end.  I just find the idea of them 
sharing a "life force" intriguing.  Imagine what Harry could learn 
over the next two years right inside his own head.

Sue, who would never suppose to have any clue how JKR thinks.  For 
me, Filch was kicking the students across the swamp and the Griffin 
knocker was just a decoration :P.




From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Wed Mar  3 19:32:22 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 19:32:22 -0000
Subject: In the beginning
In-Reply-To: <c25aa4+5a25@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c25bs6+vige@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91981

snip
> So then what happens if there are no witnesses, and when it is all 
> over Harrymort stumbles out looking for congratulations, just to be 
> hit by a combined AK from Ron, Neville, etc.
> 
> 
> psychobirdgirl
> (still confused as to whether this is what they were suggesting or 
> if I missed the point completely.)

Sue (screaming outloud at how twisted this whole thing could 
become).  This psychobirdgirl, is *exactly* what could possibly 
happen if JKR chose to end it this way.  It could even be worse.  
Years 6 and 7 could take place while Harry lies in a coma fighting 
the evil Voldemort inside his own head while the other characters 
circle around wondering what they should do (ahhhhhhhhh!).

I need an asprin.




From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Wed Mar  3 19:51:30 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 19:51:30 -0000
Subject: Elf names
In-Reply-To: <c252oj+q3eh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c25d02+puq8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91982

Sylvia wrote:
snip
Or is she disguising the 
fact that house-elves are extremely powerful creatures by giving 
them 
child-like names?  Any ideas?
Sylvia (who is referring to Dobby and Winky, of course, not 
Kreacher!)
 
Sue:
I think it is a reflection of the way the WW views house elves.   I 
assume the family who owns the elf names him/her.  They do not seem 
to generally give them credit for their capabilities and certainly do 
not value their intelegence.  To me Kreacher's name is much more 
interesting.  Seems to me that even as a baby (are house elves ever 
babies?) he was an odd bird.




From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Wed Mar  3 20:03:13 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 20:03:13 -0000
Subject: Kreacher & The Prophecy (was Re: Kreacher)
In-Reply-To: <c24lou+ia04@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c25dm1+5dc0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91983

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" <susiequsie23 at s...> 
wrote:
> "I may be wrong, but I'm not uncertain."  Ahhhh, a noble creed,
> Kneasy.  I'm such an over-cautious,
> don't-want-to-offend-anyone-with-my-views kind of person that I could
> take a lesson or two from you in this. ;-)
> 
> I love the "Heathcliffe of Grimmauld Place" asignation; a very
> evocative picture that paints!  
> 
> So, Kneasy, since you like us Siriophiles to come out & play, I'll
> have to ask you to weigh in on this one.  Should Sirius have been more
> forward-thinking in regards to Kreacher?  Should he have known the
> danger of having him about and dismissed him, consequences to Kreacher
> be damned?  Was this more arrogance on Sirius' part, his rash belief
> that he could control Kreacher?  Or is Pippin right, that Sirius kept
> Kreacher out of a sense of obligation...displaying, perhaps, a bit of
> the NOBLE Black?


Don't want to offend anyone? Hells teeth! Why not? I always remember
my dear old dad saying "If you can induce a myocardial infarct, then you've
won the argument." Wise words.

OK. Sirius. First a question from me that may be difficult to answer accurately.
While you were reading OoP what was your reaction to Sirius' behaviour?
Not in retrospect mind, but while you were reading the relevant passages
for the first time.

Did you think "Oh, that's just Sirius and anyway he's reacting against the
family ethic." Or did you think "Silly sod. Pompous oaf. You'll regret that."?
After the event it's easy to see which was the correct analysis. Yes, he was 
being pompous, unthinking, arrogant. That, among other attributes is what
constitutes Sirius. The 100%, copper-bottomed, old-fashioned, genuine 
pure-blood article.

Having any obligation to the family House Elf would be an alien concept.
A House Elf is there *to do* and *to obey*. They don't have feelings; or
if they do, then they are very low on the list of priorities. He feels miffed
because although  his mother is dead Kreachur still abides by her sense
of rightness. Sirius is just an interloper - the disgrace of the family, and
for all the poses that Sirius strikes, he is still a Black. He expects to be
Master of the house and Kreachur is an uncomfortable reminder that  if
he really is on the side of his new friends, then he will never be the true
Master of 12 Grimmauld Place. 

What  Sirius should have done is irrelevent. JKR wrote him as he is, with
a personality that makes his actions ineluctable. He is of a piece. He is 
what he is.
JKR makes much of bloodlines and family throughout the series. Some 
may rise above their heritage - Sirius didn't, no matter how much he
wished to. In this he could be considered a tragic figure - like Heathcliffe.
But it doesn't stop him being true to his nature - like Heathcliffe.

In the final analysis Sirius has  lost just about everything - his family, his
good name, his freedom, his authority, his friends. No wonder he clings to
Harry like a drowning man. Harry gives him what little credibility he has
left among decent people. What effect would it have on him if he thought
that he might lose Harry's respect too? It'd be the traditional glass of whisky
and an AK in the library. "He must  have been cleaning his wand when it
went off." What an epitaph. 

But there's a better way. In the forefront of the battle. Mind you, it might 
have been friendly fire - sort of. 'Cos sure as eggs is eggs others know
Sirius better than he knows himself. He's a danger to the Order, to Harry
and to himself. "He'd have wanted it that way." A much better epitaph.

Kneasy






From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  3 20:57:29 2004
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 20:57:29 -0000
Subject: Filed under - Why didn't they....?
In-Reply-To: <c2544o+50n7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c25grp+pfjf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91984

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" 
> <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
> 
> > The only way out is for Dumbledore to take the blame himself 
> in order to get Harry off the hook. But wait...
> > 
> > That list was created during the first D.A. Hog's Head meeting 
> which, it has already been established, was not illegal. There 
> were even witnesses. In fact, Umbridge's own witness, Willy 
> Widdershins, as wellas the Innkeeper, would have seen the 
> students sign the list. That would make the list nothing more 
> than a record of who attended the first meeting, and 
> consequently, of no value in proving anything about what may or 
> may not have happened after the list was created. 
> 
> <<snip>>>. 
> 
> > So we must ask, why didn't they think of these two perfectly 
> good excuses to get out of this trouble?<
> 
> Er, because they wouldn't have worked.... The point is that the list
> is genuine, and Fudge and Umbridge are going to need more than 
> Dumbledore's word to make them believe it isn't.
> 

bboy_mn:

Ah but that was my whole point; the list IS genuine, but it is nothing
more than a genuine list of all the people who attended the first
legal meeting.

Also, neither of my solutions requires a lot of proof. They need only
convince Umbridge and Fudge the the Room of Requirements creates what
you need. Since no one really knows how the room works, it's hard for
Umbridge to dispute any claim made by Dumbledore. As far as the list,
it is indeed nothing more than a list of the people who attended the
first legal meeting. How could Umbridge prove otherwise, and how did
the list prove in any way that meetings had continued to occur after
the original meeting.

Witnesses saw the students sign the list in the Hog's Head. The
remaining question is, did the witnesses know the names of every
single person there, and did they count the number of people at that
first legal meeting?

The most damning part of the list was the title, 'Dumbledore's Army',
and that could have been explained away as a joke. They could have
claimed that the original name was, as Cho suggested, Defense
Association, and that Dumbledore's Army was added later as a joke.
That wouldn't have pleased Umbridge, but how could she have made it
into anything more sinister?





> Worse, it must have included people like Seamus who 
> weren't at the meeting at the Hogs Head.  Umbridge could have 
> thrown everyone on the list into detention until one of them was 
> willing to tell her the truth. Since none of them knew about 
> Hermione's hex, that wouldn't have taken very long.
> 
> Pippin

bboy_mn:

First, we don't know if Seamus was on the list, if he was then his
presents there, on the list, is only significant if the original Hog's
Head witness counted how many students were at the meeting, and/or
knew the names of all the people at the meeting. I don't think either
of them are likely, although admittedly possible. In addition even if
Willy the witness knew the exact number of students, did he tell
Umbridge? And, if he told her, would she notice one more name?

I think these questions, more than anything else, are the major
drawback to using either of the solutions I suggested, and I inicated
in my original post that both solutions would require a lot more
explaining. I would seem reasonable that in the heat of the moment
Dumbledore was looking for more immediate and final solutions, rather
than solutions that would instigate long extended discussion, which
would in turn open the possibility for the story to become more
confused, contradictory, and complex. 

In a sense, each of my alternate solutions opens the door to hundreds
more questions; Dumbledore's solution was immediate and final.

In addition, another person in this thread made the most important
point, Umbridge and Fudge are not exactly a people who ever let the
truth stand in the way of getting what they want. Dumbldore and Harry
can show them the truth, or at least, their favorable version of the
truth, but they have no power to make them accept it.

Just a few additional thoughts.

bboy_mn





From jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com  Wed Mar  3 21:10:32 2004
From: jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com (mooseming)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 21:10:32 -0000
Subject: In the beginning
In-Reply-To: <c25bs6+vige@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c25hk8+77j6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91985

What if the 'other' in 'neither can live whilst the other survives' is
another other?
Oh say the spirit/soul of Salazar Slytherin, which is divided between
Harry and Tom, in effect stopping them from living their own lives.
SS did something very bad back in the beginning, according to the
sorting hat song in OOP more than just the pure blood thing. What if
that very bad thing was messing with old magic and immortality (with
some hideous price to pay). What if the very old magic Lily used to
protect Harry somehow messed with the very old magic SS used to
incorporate his spirit/soul in Tom's body and s/s SS is now in essence
divided?

The final battle then becomes between two mortals, Harry and Tom, for
an immortal soul. If Harry kills Tom perhaps s/s SS will be able to
reconfigure inside Harry and he will be lost unless he can overcome
s/s SS. Maybe Tom and Harry have to join forces to defeat s/s SS?
Perhaps it is in s/s SS interest to kill one of them and he isn't
fussy which 'either must die at the hand of the other'. How can s/s SS
have a hand? What about the hand of destiny in Knockturn Alley or
Wormtail's shiny new silver hand?

OK its all very made up....but it might be right :-)
jo




From norek_archives2 at hotmail.com  Wed Mar  3 21:30:35 2004
From: norek_archives2 at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 21:30:35 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Elf names
Message-ID: <BAY2-F85YbZrAavgWly00020a7e@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91986

>Sue:
>I think it is a reflection of the way the WW views house elves.   I
>assume the family who owns the elf names him/her.  They do not seem
>to generally give them credit for their capabilities and certainly do
>not value their intelegence.  To me Kreacher's name is much more
>interesting.  Seems to me that even as a baby (are house elves ever
>babies?) he was an odd bird.

I assume house elves start out as babies because they have mothers (Winky 
said she, her mother, and her grandmother had all served the Crouch family).

And I think Kreacher's name is simply a pun.  Whether it came from Mrs. 
Black or from JKR, I don't know, but I'd bet on JKR because I see absolutely 
no evidence that Mrs. Black has a sense of humor, even a rude one.  (If she 
did, her screaming in the hall might be more entertaining.)


Janet Anderson

_________________________________________________________________
Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee when you click here. 
http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963




From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Wed Mar  3 21:41:23 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 21:41:23 -0000
Subject: In the beginning
In-Reply-To: <c24n2g+57qf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c25je3+27ts@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91987

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" <susiequsie23 at s...> 
wrote:
> Okay, Max & Sue.  Can you go a little further with this theory?  Can
> you explain how you see the conclusion?  This almost seems to
> necessitate Harry's death in the end, does it not?  
> 

I'm not Max or Sue and I won't speak for them but since I kicked this 
thread onto the site I've been reading the posts with great interest and
I'll give you my thoughts, for what they're worth.

We don't really know what happened at GH but confusinglyso, myself
and a few others suspect that Voldy attempted a take-over of Harry
not a straight-forward murder. Not a plethora of evidence, just bits
and pieces that *could* fit together in  the desired fashion. (Since I
first posted on this I've had an email from Lyn J. Mangiameli in which
she highlights Lily's words at that fateful encounter:- 
"Not Harry, please no, take me, kill me  instead-"
The "take me" is a fascinating phrase in this context. I doubt she was
ripping the buttons off her blouse at the time so it's reasonable to
assume that 'take' is to mean carry away, remove or extract.)

But it didn't happen. Harry had protection. Voldy disintegrated and
Harry ends up with a scar and some Slytherin attributes. Well, quite
a lot of Slytherin attributes actually; more than enough for the Sorting
Hat to classify him as Slytherin House material. Depending on the
inclination of the poster these attributes derive from Tom Riddle or
Salazar Slytherin himself. Personally I think they come from SS via
Tom -  second hand so to speak. Sally speaks Parcelmouth but I can't
remember canon mentioning that Tom could *before* he entered the
Chamber. It all depends how he got into the Chamber in the first place.
SS didn't engrave snakes on taps, that's for sure.

Why did Voldy try this ploy? Was it the Prophecy or was the body he
inhabited and had changed so much over the years finally wearing out?
'Near' immortality is not quite the finished article after all.

The degree of penetration Voldy makes into Harry's mind during his
attempted consciousness slurp is open to question and it is the depth
of this invasion that could determine what the denoument might be.
If it was shallow then Harry has picked up a few nasty habits that are
not terminal, could in fact be useful in certain circumstances and Harry
remains Harry.

If it was deeper then Harry has problems. Big problems. Massive problems.
It's unlikely that Sally has taken root in his mind - this is what the
protection probably warded against. But the more passive part of the
Voldy construct - Tom - is another matter.

Why doesn't DD want or try to kill Voldy? What if Harry and SS are linked 
together by a shared or fragmented Tom? What would happen if one were
killed? Would the other be affected? This could be the rationale behind the
"..in essence divided.." observation. Harry is part Tom and DD  needs to
separate the two. If they had melded it would be impossible, but he doesn't
think they have. (Whisper it if you dare - Harry might be Tom - totally.
Lily might have protected his body but not his mind. Not likely but a
fascinating possibility.)

It's possible that if Harry or Voldy died then that part of Tom that the
deceased had would rejoin the other part. If so, killing Voldy wouldn't
help Harry one bit; he'd end up a split personality sharing his mind with 
Tom. DD needs to do some subtle brain surgery. It could all get very 
interesting indeed. Then again, it might not be the worst case scenario.
It could be the superficial intrusion is what happened, in which case
we're back to the old question of how to stuff Voldy.

Me? You know me - go for the darkest option. 
It might not be right but it's great fun thinking about it.

Kneasy




From dk59us at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  3 21:40:59 2004
From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 21:40:59 -0000
Subject: FILK:  It Ain't Me, Tom!
Message-ID: <c25jdb+hbqg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91988

This is a first FILK attempt, so be kind!

It Ain't Me, Tom
sung by Young Neville Longbottom (well known for his precocious vocal
abilities as an infant)
(tune: It Ain't Me Babe, Bob Dylan)

Go 'way from my window,
Leave at your own chosen speed.
I'm not the one you want, Tom,
I'm not the one you need.
You say you're lookin' for someone
Born as the 7th month did die,
Who could whip you an' defeat you
If he lives and grows up strong,
Someone whose power chills you to the core,
But it ain't me, Tom,
No, no, no, it ain't me, Tom,
It ain't me you're lookin' for, Tom.

Go lightly from the ledge, Tom,
Go lightly on the ground.
I'm not the one you want, Tom,
He's in another town.
You say you're lookin' for someone
Who can vanquish Voldemort,
Whose parents thrice defied you,
Which it's true my folks have done,
Someone who must die so you can live,
But it ain't me, Tom,
No, no, no, it ain't me, Tom,
It ain't me you're lookin' for, Tom.

Go melt back in the night, Tom,
Everything inside is made of stone.
There's nothing in here moving
An' anyway I'm not alone.
You don't know and I won't tell you
He you choose will gain great power,
Neither of the two can live long
While the other does survive,
But I'm just a wizard child an' nothing more,
So it ain't me, Tom,
No, no, no, it ain't me, Tom,
It ain't me you're lookin' for, Tom.

--Eustace_Scrubb





From lizvega2 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  3 22:40:39 2004
From: lizvega2 at yahoo.com (lizvega2)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 22:40:39 -0000
Subject: Voldemort's Wand
In-Reply-To: <c251hh+tg10@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c25mt8+gebu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91989

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "armadillof" <armadillof at y...> 
wrote:
> LizVega wrote:
> > Someone else was at the Potter's house, and it may 
> > have been Wormtail, Sirius went to his hiding place 
> > and he wasn't there, but then he went to the Potters, 
> > and he wasn't there either. Sirius didn't mention 
> > seeing anyone else there, but in the state he was 
> > probably in, he wasn't looking around.
> 
> Just out of curiosity... which chapter is it in which book 
(although 
> I'm probably able to figure out which book by the title :P) where 
it 
> is stated that there is another guest at the house in Godric's 
> Hollow in which the Potters hid?
> 
> AF....who's wondering what happened to Harry's regular house & 
> family heirlooms :/  I guess they're not that relevant now.

LizVega here:

Ah, there is absolutely no canon reference stating that anyone else 
was in the house. Knew someone would call me on that! The only two 
people that we know to have been there were Hagrid, on DD's orders, 
and Sirius who went there when he saw that Peter wasn't in his 
designated hiding spot. Neither Hagrid or Sirius mention seeing 
anyone except Harry and the bodies of his parents. The reason I 
believe there was someone else there is twofold:
 1. If no one else was there, how did LV get his wand back in GOF?
2. The house was destroyed, according to Sirius, and we know from 
other AK spells we've seen cast that the spell doesn't cause 
destruction, or even MARK the person. Wormtail could destroy a house 
though, he did destroy an entire street once! 




From annie.wedekind at fsgbooks.com  Wed Mar  3 20:54:04 2004
From: annie.wedekind at fsgbooks.com (anniewedekind)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 20:54:04 -0000
Subject: Slytherin Morality was Re: Reintroducing myself and a
In-Reply-To: <c255tg+cga5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c25glc+fhl1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91990

Nora Renka <nrenka at y...> wrote:
"-Nora admits to a strong bias against ends-oriented conceptions of
morality, but is still hoping for a Slytherin to visibly buck the
trend"


Isn't this exactly what Snape, as spy for the Order, is doing?

"anniewedekind" 










From surreal_44 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  3 21:57:22 2004
From: surreal_44 at yahoo.com (Krissy)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 21:57:22 -0000
Subject: Newbie and some questions about Slytherins
Message-ID: <c25kc2+1pkd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91991

Hello, I'm brand new here. :) My name is Krissy and I'm 23. I've 
been reading the Harry Potter books now for quite a few years and I 
just finished reading the most recent book "The Order of the 
Phoenix".

Although I do enjoy the HP series, I do have a few issues with the 
books. I've been pondering some questions for a while, and I wanted 
to see if anyone else had an opinion my thoughts/opinion/questions, 
and I deeply apologize if anything I mention has been brought up 
before.

1. So my first opinion is about the Slytherin house in general; do 
the characters in that particular house seem a tad two-dimensional 
to anyone besides me? I mean, can everyone who has ever been in 
Slytherin possibly have been a completely racist person, or do any 
of you think that maybe there have been (or are) some people who 
pretend to hate Muggles and Muggle-born wizards? 

2. With that in mind, what do you feel should happen to the Death 
Eater's children when/if Voldemort is defeated? They are children 
afterall, and if they've been brought up with...shall we 
say, "altered" views of the world, how much should they be held 
accountable for?

3. Do any of you think that Malfoy is even going to be in Hogwarts 
in the Sixth book, or is he going to join the Death-Eaters?

4. In the sixth Book, did anyone notice how Snape called Malfoy by 
his first name? Do you think it's significant that it's the only 
time (that I can think of) that Snape has called a student by their 
first name?

5. Lastly, for now at least, did you notice that Draco referred to 
his father as "dad" in the sixth book? Is his relationship close to 
his father, or does he fear him?

Ok, ok, I admit...I like the Slytherins. I feel kind of bad for 
them, because I don't know how many of them even have a freewill to 
decide how they behave and treat people. Also, since the books are 
from Harry's point of view, we really don't know how they think/feel 
about anything, and what Harry sees may not really be what's going 
on with them.

Hopefully I have not frightened anyone away with my babbling first 
post. Any insight you guys have would be appreciated.

Cheers,

~Krissy





From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Thu Mar  4 00:10:21 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 00:10:21 -0000
Subject: Kreacher & The Prophecy (was Re: Kreacher)
In-Reply-To: <c25dm1+5dc0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c25s5d+r0ek@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91992

Siriusly Snapey Susan wrote:
> > "I may be wrong, but I'm not uncertain."  Ahhhh, a noble creed,
> > Kneasy.  I'm such an over-cautious, don't-want-to-offend-anyone-
> > with-my-views kind of person that I could take a lesson or two 
> > from you in this. ;-)

Kneasy replied:
> Don't want to offend anyone? Hells teeth! Why not? I always 
> remember my dear old dad saying "If you can induce a myocardial 
> infarct, then you've won the argument." Wise words.

Susan again:
I have two kids yammering in my ear, so I shouldn't be trying to 
reply to this just now...but I can't resist. :-)  Love the "if you 
cause an MI, you've won"...but, alas, my superego is overdeveloped 
and, as selfish as I am, I still can't quit being a worrywart, too.

Siriusly Snapey Susan wrote:
> > So, Kneasy, since you like us Siriophiles to come out & play, 
> > I'll have to ask you to weigh in on this one.  Should Sirius 
> > have been more forward-thinking in regards to Kreacher?  Should 
> > he have known the danger of having him about and dismissed him, 
> > consequences to Kreacher be damned?  Was this more arrogance on 
> > Sirius' part, his rash belief that he could control Kreacher?  
> > Or is Pippin right, that Sirius kept Kreacher out of a sense of 
> > obligation...displaying, perhaps, a bit of the NOBLE Black?

Kneasy:
> OK. Sirius. First a question from me that may be difficult to
> answer accurately.  While you were reading OoP what was your 
> reaction to Sirius' behaviour? Not in retrospect mind, but while 
> you were reading the relevant passages for the first time.
> 
> Did you think "Oh, that's just Sirius and anyway he's reacting 
> against the family ethic." Or did you think "Silly sod. Pompous 
> oaf. You'll regret that."? After the event it's easy to see which 
> was the correct analysis. Yes, he was being pompous, unthinking, 
> arrogant. That, among other attributes is what constitutes Sirius. 
> The 100%, copper-bottomed, old-fashioned, genuine pure-blood 
> article.

Susan: 
How did I read Sirius on the FIRST reading?  Well, I am rather a 
Sirius apologist, and I had that cornball romantic notion of Harry & 
parent-substitute-Sirius beginning a happy, adventure-filled life 
together, so I tended to not be very critical of him.  Most of the 
time I simply thought he was acting as Harry's protector and as a 
man extremely frustrated & depressed about being locked away.  I 
didn't think of him as arrogant or pompous or a silly sod.

Kneasy:
> Having any obligation to the family House Elf would be an alien 
> concept. A House Elf is there *to do* and *to obey*. They don't 
> have feelings; or if they do, then they are very low on the list 
> of priorities. <snip>  What  Sirius should have done is 
> irrelevent. JKR wrote him as he is, with a personality that makes 
> his actions ineluctable. <snip>

Susan:
As for the Keacher issue, you make the right point, of course, in 
that there is no "should have" because JKR wrote Sirius as she 
elected to write him.  Perhaps a "what if" question would have been 
more appropriate.  But I think your read of Sirius' thoughts about 
Kreacher are very much in line w/ his true personality.

Kneasy: 
> In the final analysis Sirius has lost just about everything - his 
> family, his good name, his freedom, his authority, his friends. No 
> wonder he clings to Harry like a drowning man. Harry gives him 
> what little credibility he has left among decent people. What 
> effect would it have on him if he thought that he might lose 
> Harry's respect too? It'd be the traditional glass of whisky
> and an AK in the library. "He must have been cleaning his wand 
> when it went off." What an epitaph. 
> 
> But there's a better way. In the forefront of the battle. <snip> 
> He's a danger to the Order, to Harry and to himself. "He'd have 
> wanted it that way." A much better epitaph.

Susan:
Am I reading your "Sirius has lost just about everything" paragraph 
correctly?  It seems almost a sympathetic portrait...from YOU?!  But 
are you saying that if Sirius gave IN to that, he'd have killed 
himself, and that wasn't Sirius?  Are you saying that others knew he 
needed to be eliminated?  I confess to being a little confused by 
that last statement of yours.

Siriusly Snapey Susan...who apologizes for this rather disjointed 
response. :-|






From siskiou at msn.com  Thu Mar  4 00:10:35 2004
From: siskiou at msn.com (Susanne)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 16:10:35 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Reintroducing myself and a question (second impressions of OoP)
In-Reply-To: <c24k6p+nq7f@eGroups.com>
References: <20040302064048.57984.qmail@web41806.mail.yahoo.com>
 <c24k6p+nq7f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <793301351.20040303161035@msn.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91993



Hi,

Wednesday, March 3, 2004, 4:48:25 AM, sophierom wrote:

>  If we could condense 
> MWPP into 3, Harry would represent a bit of his father and
> godfather, Hermione acts most like Lupin, and Ron is Peter
> Pettigrew.   

I violently disagree <g>.

In fact, I have a hard time finding many parallels between
the marauders and the trio at all.

Harry may look a lot like his father, and they both play
Quidditch well, and both have an "arch enemy" (Snape, Draco)
but other than that, it doesn't seem they act very similar or
have a similar outlook on things.
Same with Sirius.

And Hermione never seems to keep quiet, and says what she
believes in, even if it loses her friends, which is not like
Lupin.

And how does Ron resemble PP?

Does he fawn over, and admire Harry and Hermione?
Does he tolerate Harry and Hermione openly making fun of
him?

Ron is able to stand up for himself just fine, and his
morals seem okay to me.
The WW in general has a lot of improvement in that regard,
so why expect Ron to be perfect already?

He's always been able to change his outlook, if proven
wrong, and I do think that seeing werewolves and giants as
dangerous probably has it's reasons. They are, under certain
circumstances.

I'm sure, Hermione would take precautions when meeting a
werewolf at full moon, and seeing how she reacted to
Grawp...

Regarding Hermione's morals, I think she has gotten past the
point of putting rules above everything, but instead has
moved more toward "the end justifies the means". which could
be dangerous ground.


-- 
Best regards,
 Susanne                           mailto:siskiou at msn.com

Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/





From entropymail at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  4 01:05:25 2004
From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 01:05:25 -0000
Subject: Submit Questions For Tomorrow's JKR Chat
Message-ID: <c25vcl+suvm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91994

Just wanted to let you know that you can already submit questions for
tomorrow's (March 4th) JKR internet chat. The link is:

http://www.worldbookdayfestival.com/2004/jkrowling_chat.html

Have fun!

:: Entropy ::




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Thu Mar  4 01:34:18 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 01:34:18 -0000
Subject: Did Harry "die" [was: Re: In the beginning]
In-Reply-To: <c25bi8+ljl8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2612q+v33u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91995

Sue originally posted:
> > I believe it is possible that what happened at Godrick's Hollow 
> > is that Voldemort's life force was transfered to Harry. IOW, 
> > Harry actually "died" and was immediatly filled with the life 
> > force of Tom Riddle by a rebounded curse caused by some sort of 
> > charm used by Lilly.
> <SNIP>
> they (Harry and Voldemort) were in "essence" sharing the same 
> life force.  "Neither can live while the other survives."

Then Max:
> For instance, it would explain how Harry appropriated various 
> skills from Voldemort. <snip> it might also explain why 
> Voldemort's body was never found. <snip>
 
Then Siriusly Snapey Susan:
> > Okay, Max & Sue.  Can you go a little further with this theory?  
> > Can you explain how you see the conclusion?  This almost seems to
> > necessitate Harry's death in the end, does it not?  
> > 

And Sue again: 
> Here's what I think...Voldemort was not "supposed" to survive what 
> happened in GH.  His time was done.  Unfortunately, what 
> ever "dangerous transformations" he underwent prevented his death 
> as we understand it.  Voldemort is a sort of parasite, sharing 
> Harry's "life force" and even drawing it from him, the longer he 
> maintains a body the more entwined Harry and Voldemort will 
> become.  In the end Harry will have to extract himself (and all of 
> the "life force") completely from Voldemort and when that happens 
> Voldemort will die (really this time).  
> 
> Based on how I see it, if *Harry* were to die, that would mean 
> Voldemort would go on to live for a very long time.  Harry has to 
> survive and keep the "life force" within himself in order to save 
> the WW from a long reign of terror by the "Dark Lord".  In the
> end, the battle will take place inside Harry's head or on some 
> other plane and will envolve the force of a sort of "mental 
>Patronus".
 
And finally, Susan again:
See?  This is where I'm losing it.  At first, I thought this was 
posited as **Harry** essentially died and was replaced with a 
portion of VOLDEMORT'S essence, while a vaporized form of Voldy also 
whipped off to try to rebuild.  But now as I read this, it sounds as 
if you're saying HARRY survived and his life force is inside Voldy.

I'm not saying I don't like the idea, and I'm not trying to 
nitpick.  [Really!]  I'm just trying to understand what it is you're 
suggesting might have happened.  

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From jmmears at comcast.net  Thu Mar  4 01:38:17 2004
From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 01:38:17 -0000
Subject: Reintroducing myself and a question (second impressions of OoP)
In-Reply-To: <c24k6p+nq7f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c261a9+4e9p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91996

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sophierom" <sophierom at y...> 
wrote:

> I actually thought Hermione was in less "moral peril" in OotP than 
> in any of the other books.  In the other books, she was more like 
> Percy; she tended to believe in the rules for the rules' sake.  
That 
> can be just as morally dangerous as disregarding the rules 
> altogether.  
> 
> I actually thought it was Ron who was in trouble morally.  He 
> doesn't take much of a stand on anything throughout the book.  For 
> all the problems in Hermione's S.P.E.W. campaign, at least she 
> believes in something and is acting on it.



I'm afraid that I'm baffled by this statement.  After all, it isn't 
Ron who is grimly engaging in blackmail or scheming to put someone 
he doesn't like in mortal danger (Umbridge and the Centaurs).  
Hermione certainly believes in "something" and acts on it, but does 
it not matter what that something is or *how* one acts on it?
I thought that Hermione was skating very close to the edge all 
through OOP, and because she seemed to be right about virtually 
everything, she never had an opportunity to reconsider any of her 
actions.  I really think that JKR is setting her up for a big (and 
well-earned) fall.

<snip>
 
Sophierom wrote:
 
> But Ron? He doesn't really stand for anything, particularly as a 
> prefect.  He's always playing the pure sidekick to Harry. Of 
course, 
> this is part of his function as a character, I guess.  And, he has 
> the problem of the twins.  Don't get me wrong, I like Ron a lot, 
but 
> I think he's by far the weakest of the trio.  If we could condense 
> MWPP into 3, Harry would represent a bit of his father and 
> godfather, Hermione acts most like Lupin, and Ron is Peter 
> Pettigrew.   
 
I generally don't think that generational parallels work too well in 
HP but I'm afraid that I don't see any similarities between Ron and 
Pettigrew.  Ron tells a (he thinks) murderous Sirius Black that 
he'll have to kill him first if he wants to kill Harry.  He never, 
ever fawns over Harry and even goes so far as to have a fight with 
him when he feels betrayed in GoF. I can't quite picture Pettigrew 
doing any of these things. In addition, academically, he's Harry's 
equal, according to Harry, and while Hermione is the intellectual 
support behind Harry, Ron is his main emotional support.

I think that the trio is quite well balanced, overall and I'm 
looking forward to seeing each of them overcome their personal 
challenges as well as helping Harry defeat Voldemort.  Ron is no 
more of a weak link than Hermione, IMO.

Jo Serenadust




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Thu Mar  4 01:44:33 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 01:44:33 -0000
Subject: Newbie and some questions about Slytherins
In-Reply-To: <c25kc2+1pkd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c261m1+qlql@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91997

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Krissy" <surreal_44 at y...> 
wrote:
> Ok, ok, I admit...I like the Slytherins. I feel kind of bad for 
> them, because I don't know how many of them even have a freewill
> to decide how they behave and treat people. 

Welcome aboard, Krissy!

Unless any of the Slytherins are acting under the Imperious Curse, 
then I'd argue that ALL of them have free will.  It may not be an 
EASY road to take to defy parents or tradition, but everyone 
certainly has free will.  Isn't that just about the most major theme 
of the series to far, that it's more about our CHOICES than anything 
else?

Siriusly Snapey Susan






From meriaugust at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  4 03:44:02 2004
From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 03:44:02 -0000
Subject: Arranged Marraiges: (Was:Re: Slytherins/DE and Girls)
In-Reply-To: <BAY2-F95GxgelXDeqoM0000376e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <c268m2+dqqo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 91999

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Janet Anderson" 
<norek_archives2 at h...> wrote:
> ghingapuss wrote:
> >Knowing how the WW like to marry young, and working with the idea
> >that there is a limited number of prospective pure-blood 
candidates
> >for marriage, parents would feel the need to hook up their 
offspring
> >as soon as possible to avoid missing out.  It stands to reason 
then
> >that the children of pure blooded families were most likely
> >betrothed or promised to each other quite young. As teens.  Will
> >some of the purebloods, Draco perhaps be dealing with this in the
> >next book?
> 
Janet Anderson replies: 

> I think this is interesting as well.  Draco is the only son of a 
wealthy and 
> socially prominent family (well, they were socially prominent 
until Lucius 
> Malfoy went to jail ...) and would therefore be considered 
extremely 
> eligible, especially since he's not bad looking.  (Okay, he's no 
Orlando 
> Bloom
snip

> 
> So what will Narcissa Malfoy (in the absence of her husband) do to 
promote 
> an appropriate marriage for her son?  I suggest that during the 
summer, when 
> Draco is at home, she'll start a program of parties at home, 
inviting 
> eligible pureblood families with daughters, and also that they'll 
start 
> travelling, visiting the homes of those families.  
snipping of the end

Meri back again: 
I think that it would be very interesting to know whose marraiges in 
the WW are born from love and whose are arranged. I am wondering 
about the marraige of Molly and Arthur. They are both (as far as we 
know) from pure-blood families. In fact the only family member we 
know of that isn't a wizard is the mysterious accountant. But what 
if it wasn't just their blood traitorness that got them blasted off 
the Black tapestry? What if Molly (or Arthur) was engaged to some 
Black family member? That might be grounds for dismissal, mighten 
it? (We can be pretty sure cannonically that Molly and Arthur were 
wed of their own free will. After all, one does not risk the wrath 
of the caretaker to midnight stroll with just anyone.) I would also 
assume that the Malfoy and LeStrange marraiges were arranged, while 
the Andromeda and Ted Tonks union was not, for obvious reasons. And 
Janet makes a good point: who is young Draco betrothed to? I snipped 
out the end of the post which mentions Pansy Parkinson, but I think 
that that match has possibilites from a pure blood stand point. But 
I think that the pure blood families might have trouble getting 
together for matchmaking socials, as the majority of those who hold 
such pureblood prejudices probably have a relation or two in Azkaban 
at the moment. Anyways, again apologizing for the rambles. 
Meri (who is slightly weirded out at the mere mention of Malfoy and 
Orlando Bloom in the same sentence, as Draco is much more of a 
Backstreet Boy than an ass-kicking elf boy!)




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  4 04:33:25 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 04:33:25 -0000
Subject: GG and SS the best of friends
In-Reply-To: <20040303083949.6818.qmail@web41812.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c26bil+3qi1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92000

-> Danielle writes:
> So while we lament that there are no good slytherins,
> maybe there aren't any now, but remember this maybe
> not too long ago slytherins weren't evil, just self
> centered.
>  
> Melanie's reply:  I think that is kind of jumping to conclusions if
one assumes that all of the current Slytherins are evil.  We actually
know very little about a good majority of Slytherins, and what we do
know is from the prospective of a 15 year old boy who has in the past
had some horrific run-ins with the school bully, Draco Malfoy.  
>  
> Now, I am the first to admit that it does appear that a great deal
of Slytherins end up going to the dark side, mostly I would assume
because of age old prejudice coming from their families.  
>  
> But there is at least some evidence to support that there are at
least somewhat decent Slytherins at Hogwarts.  I mean some of the
students did stand at the feast fourth year.  



Actually the entire school, even Draco and his cronies, stood and
raised their goblets in tribute to Cedric Diggory at the end of GoF,
and IIRC, some of the Slytherins even remained standing for Harry
(though Draco and his friends defiantly sat down). Also (as I've
mentioned before) all of the third-year Slytherins except Draco,
Crabbe, and Goyle cheered for Harry when he succeeded in riding Buckbeak. 

I'm wondering whether some of these Slytherins will distance
themselves from Draco in the next book. If they unite with the other
houses against him, will Slytherin become a house divided against itself?

Carol




From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Thu Mar  4 05:01:08 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 05:01:08 -0000
Subject: Did Harry "die" [was: Re: In the beginning]
In-Reply-To: <c2612q+v33u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c26d6k+8ho7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92001

Snip of Sue and Max posts ('cause I'm gonna say it all again) 
> And finally, Susan again:
> See?  This is where I'm losing it.  At first, I thought this was 
> posited as **Harry** essentially died and was replaced with a 
> portion of VOLDEMORT'S essence, while a vaporized form of Voldy 
also 
> whipped off to try to rebuild.  But now as I read this, it sounds 
as 
> if you're saying HARRY survived and his life force is inside Voldy.
> 
> I'm not saying I don't like the idea, and I'm not trying to 
> nitpick.  [Really!]  I'm just trying to understand what it is 
you're 
> suggesting might have happened.  
> 
> Siriusly Snapey Susan

Okay, again, with an attempt at clarity.  I am basically 
defining "life force" as something non-specific to a person.  Not a 
soul, in other words.  Here's my thinking: AK kills the person, ie. 
removes the life force.  The soul travels on to where ever souls go 
and the body is left behind.  The soul in this instance would contain 
the personality, memories etc. of the person AKed.  The life force is 
destroyed and the person dead.

With this in mind then, AK hits the charmed baby Harry, destroying 
his life force, while at the same instant rebounding (I will add here 
that for this to have happened, the AK curse now carries with it 
Lilly's charm) on Voldemort, destroying his body, and sending his 
life force back to Harry.  Harry's soul had no time to leave and 
before the body died, Voldemort's life force enters Harry's body, 
saves the baby and carries with it some very interesting baggage. 
Harry is saved, Voldemort is vaper and the "old magic" Lily used 
worked beautifully, but had some odd side effects.  Soooooo, 
Harry "died" without dying.

Here's the short form:
1.Lilly charms Harry

2.AK hits Harry, destroys life force, picks up charm and rebounds on V
Charmed AK destroys V's body and sends life force back to Harry 
(along with baggage)

3. Harry receives life force and some odd skills

4. What is left of Voldemort is gone (he did some interesting charm 
work too), Harry (new and improved)lives with nothing but a scar.

Confused?  Me too, I said I needed an aspirin.

Sue, who is believing this theory less and less the more she writes 
it.




From sophierom at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  4 05:07:11 2004
From: sophierom at yahoo.com (sophierom)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 05:07:11 -0000
Subject: Reintroducing myself and a question (second impressions of OoP)
In-Reply-To: <c261a9+4e9p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c26di0+hu88@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92002

I (sophierom) wrote:
>  But Ron? He doesn't really stand for anything, particularly as a 
> > prefect.  He's always playing the pure sidekick to Harry. Of 
> course, this is part of his function as a character, I guess.  
And, he has the problem of the twins.  Don't get me wrong, I like 
Ron a lot, but I think he's by far the weakest of the trio.  If we 
could condense MWPP into 3, Harry would represent a bit of his 
father and godfather, Hermione acts most like Lupin, and Ron is 
Peter Pettigrew.   

Susanne responds:

"I violently disagree <g>.

In fact, I have a hard time finding many parallels between
the marauders and the trio at all.

Harry may look a lot like his father, and they both play
Quidditch well, and both have an "arch enemy" (Snape, Draco)
but other than that, it doesn't seem they act very similar or
have a similar outlook on things.
Same with Sirius.

And Hermione never seems to keep quiet, and says what she
believes in, even if it loses her friends, which is not like
Lupin.

And how does Ron resemble PP?

Does he fawn over, and admire Harry and Hermione?
Does he tolerate Harry and Hermione openly making fun of
him?

Ron is able to stand up for himself just fine, and his
morals seem okay to me.
The WW in general has a lot of improvement in that regard,
so why expect Ron to be perfect already?

He's always been able to change his outlook, if proven
wrong, and I do think that seeing werewolves and giants as
dangerous probably has it's reasons. They are, under certain
circumstances.

I'm sure, Hermione would take precautions when meeting a
werewolf at full moon, and seeing how she reacted to
Grawp...

And Jo added:

> I generally don't think that generational parallels work too well 
in HP but I'm afraid that I don't see any similarities between Ron 
and Pettigrew.  Ron tells a (he thinks) murderous Sirius Black that 
> he'll have to kill him first if he wants to kill Harry.  He never, 
> ever fawns over Harry and even goes so far as to have a fight with 
> him when he feels betrayed in GoF. I can't quite picture Pettigrew 
> doing any of these things. In addition, academically, he's Harry's 
> equal, according to Harry, and while Hermione is the intellectual 
> support behind Harry, Ron is his main emotional support.
> 
> I think that the trio is quite well balanced, overall and I'm 
> looking forward to seeing each of them overcome their personal 
> challenges as well as helping Harry defeat Voldemort.  Ron is no 
> more of a weak link than Hermione, IMO."

Sophierom now responding to Jo and Susanne:

Wow! I have to admit I'm kind of excited because I don't think I've 
ever provoked violent disagreement on the list before <g>!  I think 
both of you are right ... I oversimplified when I made the 
comparison between MWPP and HRH. When I compared Ron to PP, I didn't 
mean to suggest that Ron fawned over Harry or would become a traitor 
or even a liability to Harry. I guess I was thinking about the way 
that Peter seemed to act in relation to everyone around him. I saw 
Ron having that same problem, though not to the same extreme.  And, 
after thinking it over some more, I guess that where Peter failed 
(his lack of confidence led first to becoming a follower of MWP and 
then of LV), Ron is succeeding (he doesn't let his fear of the 
twins - and I do believe he's afraid of what they think - stop him 
from trying out at Quidditch).  And when I compared Hermione to 
Lupin, I saw them both as the conscience of the group, though you're 
right to point out that Lupin fails to speak his mind whereas 
Hermione always opens her mouth. Perhaps we can say, then, in both 
these cases, there is a general inability to communicate effectively 
(too much can lead to tuning out; too little, no impact). I do 
believe that Harry shares a lot of similarities to Sirius - they're 
both impulsive, emotional; they want to be in the thick of things, 
and when they aren't they get frustrated and act unwisely.  Of 
course, Harry is a teenager (so perhaps some of that type of 
behavior can be attributed to age), whereas Sirius is an adult, but 
I do think that JKR intentionally gives us these similarities to 
show us the dark side of Harry's impulsiveness.  As for Harry and 
James, I'll agree that I was only thinking of the superficial 
similarities.  

So, let me modify my statement. I still believe that the trio shares 
some of the potential problems of MWPP, but that they are stronger 
and will overcome instead of fall to these weaknesses.

Okay, on to my other point, about Hermione's "moril peril":

Sophierom (me) said: 
> > I actually thought Hermione was in less "moral peril" in OotP 
than 
> > in any of the other books.  In the other books, she was more 
like 
> > Percy; she tended to believe in the rules for the rules' sake.  
> That 
> > can be just as morally dangerous as disregarding the rules 
> > altogether.  
> > 
> > I actually thought it was Ron who was in trouble morally.  He 
> > doesn't take much of a stand on anything throughout the book.  
For 
> > all the problems in Hermione's S.P.E.W. campaign, at least she 
> > believes in something and is acting on it.>

Jo Serenadust responded:
 I'm afraid that I'm baffled by this statement.  After all, it isn't 
> Ron who is grimly engaging in blackmail or scheming to put someone 
> he doesn't like in mortal danger (Umbridge and the Centaurs).  
> Hermione certainly believes in "something" and acts on it, but 
does 
> it not matter what that something is or *how* one acts on it?
> I thought that Hermione was skating very close to the edge all 
> through OOP, and because she seemed to be right about virtually 
> everything, she never had an opportunity to reconsider any of her 
> actions.  I really think that JKR is setting her up for a big (and 
> well-earned) fall.

And Susanne wrote:
"Regarding Hermione's morals, I think she has gotten past the
point of putting rules above everything, but instead has
moved more toward "the end justifies the means". which could
be dangerous ground."


Sophierom again:
I would like to stand by some of my comments here.  I think we 
fundametally disagree on what is moral (but please don't think I'm 
immoral because of this! :-)  You're absolutely right; "how" one 
acts is important, and what that "something" one believes in is also 
important.  But Hermione's "something" in the case of Umbridge and 
the Centaurs is Harry and the Order.  And Hermione's "how" relied on 
Umbridge's immoral behavior. I can't believe that Umbridge is 
innocent in this scenario (or any scenario!); Hermione simply bet on 
the fact the Umbridge would be rude to the centaurs and cause her 
own downfall.  If Umbridge had respected the dignity of the centaurs 
(either by not entering the "Forbidden" forrest, or by speaking 
respectfully to the centaurs) she could very well have avoided 
violence.  Umbridge had choice in this matter.  Hermione simply read 
her character correctly and let her make that choice.  I don't think 
this was immoral or using the ends to justify the means (in my mind, 
that would mean harming the "victim" directly, or giving them no 
freedom of action). She let Umbridge choose the means, and for a 
good cause.  

Are we to say that if Harry, knowing one of LV's character flaws, 
uses it against him in the final battle, Harry is acting immorally? 

I think you both have many great points about Hermione. She could 
very well have a "fall" by the end of the series.  But, I think that 
she gets a really bad rap on this list, particularly for standing up 
for things like House Elves' rights and her friends.

Okay, enough from me. Fire away again if you'd like. I find it very 
interesting.  Thanks for the posts.

Sophierom, who - being someone like Ron, who usually just goes with 
the flow - really admires Hermione for taking a stand when no one 
else will (house elves) or when some plan of action is needed 
(Umbridge's office).  




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  4 06:17:33 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 06:17:33 -0000
Subject: Elf names
In-Reply-To: <c25d02+puq8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c26hlt+q6ig@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92003

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "suehpfan" <stanleys at s...> wrote:
> Sylvia wrote:
> snip
> Or is she disguising the 
> fact that house-elves are extremely powerful creatures by giving 
> them 
> child-like names?  Any ideas?
> Sylvia (who is referring to Dobby and Winky, of course, not 
> Kreacher!)
>  
> Sue:
> I think it is a reflection of the way the WW views house elves.   I 
> assume the family who owns the elf names him/her.  They do not seem 
> to generally give them credit for their capabilities and certainly do 
> not value their intelegence.  To me Kreacher's name is much more 
> interesting.  Seems to me that even as a baby (are house elves ever 
> babies?) he was an odd bird.


Worse, it seems to imply that his owners considered him almost an
animal and clearly far below them. If your name is Kreacher
(creature), how can you ever attain dignity or self-respect? The names
"Winky" and "Dobby" imply condescension on the part of their owners;
"Kreacher" implies contempt, even loathing. And yet the poor, pitiful
Kreacher is loyal to his now-dead mistress and shares her prejudices
against "mud bloods" and "blood traitors," whereas Dobby (in CoS)
recognizes his masters as evil and serves them only because he must.
I'm not defending Kreacher, but I wonder to what degree his name
shaped his self-perception. Ill treatment alone didn't make him what
he is, or Dobby would be equally treacherous and black-(Black)-
hearted. They're like Tom Riddle and Harry in house-elf form--similar
backgrounds, opposite choices. But clearly house-elfs are moral beings
capable of choosing good or evil even when no model of goodness is
presented to them. Or is Dobby just an anomaly and Kreacher's evil
nature inevitable in his circumstances? If Sirius or someone else in
the family had been kind to him, would he have turned out differently?
I don't think so. I think he made his choice early in his life and
abided by it. His mistress's values were his values and nothing could
change that. Dobby, OTOH, rejected the Malfoys' values, and no amount
of cruelty on their part (or self-punishment for his disloyalty) could
change his view of them.

I don't know where Winky fits in; somewhere in between Kreacher and
Dobby, I suppose. Unlike the other two, her devotion was apparently
rewarded. Despite her petlike name, she seems to have been in a
position of trust until she was given clothes for coming too close to
revealing her family's secret. The faithful servant is suddenly
treated like a dog that is no longer useful and sent away in disgrace.
If she'd been named Minerva or Lily, would she have been treated any
differently? Probably not. Would her self-concept have been different>
Would she have been less timid and fearful? Who can say?

Carol, who wonders if Sirius's and Remus's names helped to shape their
identity, too




From psychobirdgirl at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  4 06:37:53 2004
From: psychobirdgirl at yahoo.com (psychobirdgirl)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 06:37:53 -0000
Subject: World Book Day 2004
Message-ID: <c26is1+25gp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92004

What time zone is the chat being held in, because knowing the time 
is useless if I can't decide when that time actually is. I would be 
really thankful for that knowledge.


psychobirdgirl
(who dreads that the time won't matter since she is in US mountain 
time, and it is likely to be going on already.)




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  4 06:59:33 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 06:59:33 -0000
Subject: World Book Day 2004
In-Reply-To: <c26is1+25gp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c26k4l+ns3o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92005

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "psychobirdgirl"
<psychobirdgirl at y...> wrote:
> What time zone is the chat being held in, because knowing the time 
> is useless if I can't decide when that time actually is. I would be 
> really thankful for that knowledge.
> 
> 
> psychobirdgirl
> (who dreads that the time won't matter since she is in US mountain 
> time, and it is likely to be going on already.)


I'm assuming that it's British time since the chat site is British and
doesn't specify a time zone. I think that's about ten hours ahead of
us (I'm also on Mountain Time). You can still submit questions if
you're up and awake! Here's Entropy's link again:

http://www.worldbookdayfestival.com/2004/jkrowling_chat.html

Carol, who thanks Entropy for posting that link and who submitted half
a dozen question in hopes that one will be answered!




From erinellii at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  4 09:34:14 2004
From: erinellii at yahoo.com (Erin)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 09:34:14 -0000
Subject: World Book Day 2004/ Some questions
In-Reply-To: <c26k4l+ns3o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c26t6m+c1ie@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92006

 "justcarol67"  wrote:
> I'm assuming that it's British time since the chat site is British 
and doesn't specify a time zone. I think that's about ten hours ahead 
of us (I'm also on Mountain Time). You can still submit questions if 
you're up and awake! Here's Entropy's link again:
> 
> http://www.worldbookdayfestival.com/2004/jkrowling_chat.html
> 
> Carol, who thanks Entropy for posting that link and who submitted 
half a dozen question in hopes that one will be answered!


Erin:

Yes, definitely British time.  Less than an hour now.  Thank you so 
much for the link!!!!  I was just going to the main page and thought 
you had to wait to click on the pictue like it said there.

Here are some questions people were asking on the OT list.  They have 
been- er- "specially formatted" to get what we thought would be the 
best possible responses.  Cause if you read transcripts of her chats 
you know she won't answer obviously revealing ones.  Anyways, here 
they are, sort of broken down by category.



**Lupin**

In PoA, Lupin had a bag with Professor R. J. Lupin stamped on it in
peeling letters. Where was he a professor before Hogwarts and what
does his middle initial stand for?

Where does Lupin live at the end of GoF when Dumbledore tells Sirius
to "lie low at Lupin's"?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
**The Weasleys**

How old are Mr. and Mrs. Weasley?

How old are Bill and Charlie?

Any chance that Arthur Weasley was a victim of the Imperius curse
during You-Know-Who's first rise to power?

Ron got his leg broken in PoA. Which leg was it, and does he have a
scar there now?

How exactly did Scabbers attach himself to young Percy?

What color are Ron's eyes?

How come Arthur hasn't learned more about Muggles and their lives
after working in a muggle department for so long?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
**Harry's past**

Do the colour of Harry's eyes matter specifically, or is it just the
fact that Lily and Harry have the "same eyes" that matters?

Where is Godric's Hollow located?

What house (or houses) were James, Sirius, Lupin, and Peter in?

Any chance that Petunia was a squib or that her and Lily's parents,
Mr. and Mrs. Evans, were squibs?

Does Harry still need to study Occlumency, or is Voldemort now
permanently banished from his mind?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
**Dumbledore**

Does Dumbledore actually *like* Cockroach Clusters?

How did Dumbledore know what made Voldemort stop possessing Harry?

We know you can't apparate into or out of Hogwarts, but we've seen
Dumbledore send people into and out of his office by portkey and
arrive by Floo powder himself. Is that a lapse in security or can
only the headmaster do that?

When Dumbledore conjures the sleeping bags in PoA, has he summoned
them *from* somewhere, or actually created them?

If Dumbledore thought that Sirius was the Potter's secret keeper, how
come he was not surprised when Hagrid told him he saw Sirius and
borrowed his bike?

- Are we ever going to know about Dumbledore's life before Harry's
events? If he's about 150 years, there's a lot of story...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
**How the WW Works**

Do "evanesco" and "scourgify" make things cease to exist or just go
somewhere else?

Are the Pensieve's memories totally objective like a video camera?

How do children from Wizarding families learn reading and writing and
math before they get to Hogwarts?

Why do some people make a loud "crack" when they disapparate, and
other people make only small "pop"s?

If no one can apparate or disapparate inside Hogwarts, what is it
that Dobby and Fawkes do when they disappear?

Could Arabella Figg, as a squib, actually see the dementors as she
said at Harry's hearing, or not?

The Put-Outer is used at the Dursleys' and at Grimmauld Place. Does
it confer some sort of magical protection besides the cover of
darkness for these important hideouts?

We've seen in OoP that portkeys do work inside Hogwarts. So how come
Crouch Jr. had to get Harry into the Triwizard Tournament and wait
for the third task before sending Harry to Voldemort? Couldn't he
just have turned anything in the castle into a Portkey at any time?

Are long fingers a sign of magical power?

What do you call the non-magical offspring of a mixed, Muggle/Magic
couple? Would they be Muggles or Squibs?


Messenger owls and Thestrals seem impressively fast. Do they travel
by magic? And if so, how exactly does that magic work?


What is the top speed of the fastest broom?

Why are portkeys so tightly controlled by the Ministry and are they
dangerous if done improperly?

Are there limits to how far a wizard can be transported by
apparating, the Floo network, or portkeys? If so, what are the limits?

Why in the world are Hags (who eat children) allowed anywhere near
Hogwarts, let alone into the town pubs when the students have a
Hogsmeade Weekend?

What is the difference between a wizard and a warlock?

How are unicorn horns harvested for use in potions-making?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
**Other people**

Blaise Zabini: boy or girl?

Will we ever find out who Florence was that the pensieve memory of
Bertha Jorkins mentioned in the 4th book, or who she was kissing?

Will Mark Evans (the ten-year-old Dudley beat up at the beginning of
OoP) show up in the next books at all?

Is Andromeda Tonks still alive?

Did Stan Shunpike (from the knight bus) go to Hogwarts?

Who is the Slytherin boy who saw the thestrals?

Whatever happened to Karkaroff?

Will Harry ever meet Professor Dumbledore's brother, Aberforth?

Will there ever be a "good Slytherin"?

When Hagrid was expelled and became the gamekeeper at Hogwarts, was
he the gamekeeper immediately at age 13? Or was he apprenticed to
the former gamekeeper, Ogg, for a while? And if so, how long?

Was Minerva McGonagall at school with Tom Riddle?

Did Tom Riddle ever date, or was he too busy learning the Dark Arts?

Why did Voldemort personally kill Dorcas Meadows?

What house was Moaning Myrtle in when she was alive?

I was sad about Sirius, but overall not too impressed with You-Know-
Who in Order of the Phoenix. Is he going to get scarier in the next
two books? (please, please!)

Who is Arabella Figg related to in the wizarding world?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
**Other stuff**

Fans have found ways to anagram many of the names currently in Harry
Potter. Are there any more names in the series that are intentional
anagrams of anything beyond the example seen in Chamber of Secrets?

In GoF, did Fudge say "I've heard of a curse scar acting as an alarm
bell before," as per the British version, or should it have
been, "I've never heard of a curse scar acting as an alarm bell
before," as in the American edition?

What's up with all the socks?

Why all the bad teeth? At last count, Snape, Sirius, and Karkaroff
all had yellow teeth, and now Hagrid's gotten some teeth knocked out
by Grawp. Has the wizarding world never heard of dentists?

In CoS, Nearly Headless Nick is celebrating his 500th death day. But
in Philosopher's Stone, he tells Harry he hasn't eaten in "nearly
four hundred years". Is this a mistake or could he somehow eat for
one hundred years after he died?

Was it your intention for fans to be able to work out a timeline of
the series like the one on the DVD of Chamber of Secrets, or did you
think of the series as more timeless when you began it?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
**Snape**

Will Harry, Ron, and Hermione ever meet (or have they already met) a
vampire?

Are the Snapes an old wizarding family like the Blacks and Malfoys?

Are Professor Snape's parents still alive?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



So, there it is. Cut and paste, do your own thing. Here's hoping
some of us get on!

Erin





From MadameSSnape at aol.com  Thu Mar  4 09:42:40 2004
From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 04:42:40 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Arranged Marraiges: (Was:Re: Slytherins/DE and Girls)
Message-ID: <98.4e1437a.2d785410@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92007

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Janet Anderson" 
<norek_archives2 at h...> wrote:
> ghingapuss wrote:
> >Knowing how the WW like to marry young, and working with the idea
> >that there is a limited number of prospective pure-blood 
candidates
> >for marriage, parents would feel the need to hook up their 
offspring
> >as soon as possible to avoid missing out.  It stands to reason 
then
> >that the children of pure blooded families were most likely
> >betrothed or promised to each other quite young. As teens.  Will
> >some of the purebloods, Draco perhaps be dealing with this in the
> >next book?

==================================

Sherrie here:

Why wait til the teens?  Old European royalty (& often the nobility) 
betrothed at birth (sometimes before - "Hey - if my kid's a girl, let's agree that 
she'll marry your son.")  It wasn't just to preserve bloodlines, but also served 
to cement political alliances.  Perhaps Draco and Pansy were BORN 
trothplighted...

Sherrie


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From eloiseherisson at aol.com  Thu Mar  4 09:53:30 2004
From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 04:53:30 EST
Subject: ADMIN: JKR World Book Day Chat
Message-ID: <1e5.1a78375f.2d78569a@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92008

Greetings from Hexquarters!

The JKR online chat is due to start very shortly, at 10 am GMT, 

http://www.worldbookdayfestival.com/2004/index.html

so pull yourselves up some chairs and the butterbeers are on us.

This is an exciting event for all of us. Can we ask that discussion of the 
chat on *this* site remains as canon (book)-focussed as possible, please? There 
has already been a great deal of discussion and anticipation of this event 
over on our sister list, OTChatter,

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/

and we would ask that more general comments are made in that forum.

Many thanks,

The Very Excited List Administration Team


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Thu Mar  4 10:49:24 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 10:49:24 -0000
Subject: Kreacher & The Prophecy (was Re: Kreacher)
In-Reply-To: <c25s5d+r0ek@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c271jk+r614@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92010

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" <susiequsie23 at s...> 
wrote:
> Am I reading your "Sirius has lost just about everything" paragraph 
> correctly?  It seems almost a sympathetic portrait...from YOU?!  But 
> are you saying that if Sirius gave IN to that, he'd have killed 
> himself, and that wasn't Sirius?  Are you saying that others knew he 
> needed to be eliminated?  I confess to being a little confused by 
> that last statement of yours.
> 

Sympathetic? To Sirius? Moi? Surely you jest.

No, it was more of a dispassionate accounting, a summing up of what 
Sirius had come to. No, I don't think that Sirius would really have ended
up alone in the library with a loaded wand, he's not that type. Self-
criticism would be alien to him, accepting responsibility for his actions
never seems to occur to him and his treatment of Kreachur and the 
fall-out from that is a good example. 

Musing about 'what if he had done this instead' is fascinating to many
on site, but it's not my favourite game. I prefer to  try and predict how
a character will act given what JKR has told us about him/her and how
they have behaved previously in given situations. 
When I wrote that given the characterisation that JKR had constructed
his actions seem pre-ordained, this wasn't so much 'JKR  has spoken'
as 'given what we know, I  think such a person is most likely to act or 
react thus.' 

With his ingrained tendency to rashness and intolerance of inactivity,
it seems inevitable that he would rush off on the rescue mission to the
Ministry. DD states that our decisions define us; when was the last
time Sirius made a thoughtful decision? It  all seems to be spur of the
moment  stuff, with no thought for the consequences. This is bloody
dangerous, and not just for Sirius. Consider, who at Hogwarts or the 
wider WW knew of the current association between Harry and Sirius
before he decided to accompany Harry to the station? Just the  Trio
and a few members of the Order. Afterwards, all the wrong people 
knew and it gave them an edge, a lever to shift Harry out of safety
into a dangerous situation. Kreachur's presumed revelations to other
members of the family told the DEs where Sirius was hiding and what
he was up to with the  Order, but it was Sirius who broadcast the 
connection between himself and Harry.

To anyone running covert operations the presence of someone like
Sirius would be a nightmare. A disaster waiting to happen. Given that
the fate of society hangs in the balance a calculating, cold-blooded
analyst might come to the conclusion that Sirius is safer as a fond
memory than as a potential time-bomb with an increasing influence
over the one regarded as star material. This is besides the possibility
that the results of previously unknown Sirius peccadiloes could cause
unforeseen devastation. So yes, it is possible that someone in the
Order  removed him from the scene - and who better  than the one
who probably knows him best - Lupin.

Et tu Brutus?

Kneasy





From silmariel at telefonica.net  Thu Mar  4 11:00:27 2004
From: silmariel at telefonica.net (silmariel)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 12:00:27 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Newbie and some questions about Slytherins
Message-ID: <200403041200.27672.silmariel@telefonica.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 92011

-- Repost  due to incorrect names for the quoted listies --

Krissy:
> > Ok, ok, I admit...I like the Slytherins. I feel kind of bad for
> > them, because I don't know how many of them even have a freewill
> > to decide how they behave and treat people.



Siriusly Snapey Susan:
> It may not be an
> *easy* road to take to defy parents or tradition, but everyone
> certainly has free will.  Isn't that just about the most major theme
> of the series to far, that it's more about our *choices* than anything
> else?

What I'd like to know is why we must suposse they are bad or they haven't
taken choices only because Harry, as the archetipical Gryffindor leader
Slytherin hater, does believe it.

This is about choices? Well, a Griffindor chosed to Crucio another human
 being and I'm not saying he's a bad rotten apple. Have a Slytherin do it
 with identical motives and he'd be judged by the 'unforgivable' law.
 Slytherins are excluded and in that position is not no easy to choose. When
 gryffindor chose the 'good' side, they are taking the easy path. After all,
 it is what we expect from them.

If a Griffindor in Harry's year is affected by his family prejudices, to ask
that Slytherins, heavily prejudiced families, suddenly choose, is kind of a
miracle. Let's say that there are Slytherins who are snobbish and muggle
haters without automatically thinking that is is a good thing to do to
torture or kill them. A 'weak' or 'nice' slave owner instead a ruthless one.
You can say that's still bad, but I've got the feeling that Slytherin are so
disregarded that they'd be shot on sight, without taking the time to look who
he is. The rule is: If is a Slytherin student, just shoot. They are all bad.

But we don't have a clue of how the Slytherin house member's are. We know
 only the side that Harry knows, and Harry is a greatly prejudiced witness.
 As Carol (justcarol67) points out in the 'GG and SS' thread:

Carol:
<<Actually the entire school, even Draco and his cronies, stood and
raised their goblets in tribute to Cedric Diggory at the end of GoF,
and IIRC, some of the Slytherins even remained standing for Harry
(though Draco and his friends defiantly sat down). Also (as I've
mentioned before) all of the third-year Slytherins except Draco,
Crabbe, and Goyle cheered for Harry when he succeeded in riding Buckbeak. >>

So as a collective I don't see them 'all bad', just that Harry thinks so.

Silmariel




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From erinellii at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  4 11:13:40 2004
From: erinellii at yahoo.com (Erin)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 11:13:40 -0000
Subject: All in Gryffindor!!!!  Hah, I knew it!
Message-ID: <c27314+m5qe@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92012

Well, that takes care of that.  JKR has confirmed in the chat that 
MMWP were all in Gryffindor.  She also said she didn't think there 
was a link between Snape and vampires!  

Also, my best friend got on and got a question answered!!!!!!
Unfortunately she isn't quite the level of fan that we are here; and 
her question was one I could have answered myself, and about the 
frickin' movies.  She was alixnecole on the chat.

But still, she talked to JKR!!!!!  I can't wait to hug her 
tommorrow!!!

Erin, still too excited and jumpy to sleep although it's 5 in the 
morning.





From Ali at zymurgy.org  Thu Mar  4 11:14:16 2004
From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 11:14:16 -0000
Subject: The Marauders are all Gryffindors
Message-ID: <c27328+m6i1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92013

Yep, fresh back from the Worldchat, in which JKR answered, but 
didn't answer my question, about why Dumbledore trusted Snape.

Anyhow, JKR has confirmed that James, Sirius, Peter and Remus were 
all Gryffindors. I really do like it when I get something right. 

JKR also appeared to shoot down the theory about Snape being a 
vampire. No doubt some will argue that there is wriggle room in what 
she said though?

Ali,

still doing a tap dance and apologising for this short post.




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Thu Mar  4 11:22:26 2004
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (Catherine Coleman)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 11:22:26 -0000
Subject: Snape NOT a Vampire (Was  The Marauders are all Gryffindors)
In-Reply-To: <c27328+m6i1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c273hi+gs0i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92014

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" <Ali at z...> wrote:
> JKR also appeared to shoot down the theory about Snape being a 
> vampire. No doubt some will argue that there is wriggle room in 
what 
> she said though?
> 
> Ali,

Yes, and we should therefore all commiserate with Pippin on this, 
and take our hats off to Amanda, who had faith all along.

On other things - we can at least now speculate on who the next 
Minister for Magic will be, talk yet again about the significance of 
Harry's eyes, and try and figure out the Death Eater question which, 
IMO was completely screwed up in the asking.  FWIW, after all this 
time I still believe that Snape was supposed to be the one "too 
cowardly to return", who did and took his punishment - he's more or 
less admitted to Harry that he's spying after all.

Catherine, who didn't get any of her questions answered.





From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Thu Mar  4 11:35:44 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 11:35:44 -0000
Subject: JKR chat
Message-ID: <c274ag+k2e4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92015


So, Lupin is a half blood. Is that significant?

And Ron's middle name is Bilius.
Now where have I seen that name before?

Seems to be lots to brood on in this chat.
Much to speculate about, even (especially!) from the
carefully calculated non-answers. It'll take weeks to
draw all the inferences out and attempt to reach
reasonable conclusions. Oh, goody!

Kneasy






From erinellii at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  4 11:46:27 2004
From: erinellii at yahoo.com (Erin)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 11:46:27 -0000
Subject: JKR chat- Bilius implications
In-Reply-To: <c274ag+k2e4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c274uj+33r1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92016

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
> 
> So, Lupin is a half blood. Is that significant?
> 
> And Ron's middle name is Bilius.
> Now where have I seen that name before?


Oh, god, Uncle Bilius was Ron's uncle who saw a grim and died within 
24 hours!!!!

Does this have "grim" implications for Ron, especially since JKR 
hinted !again! that he might die??????

Erin




From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Thu Mar  4 11:56:52 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 11:56:52 -0000
Subject: JKR chat- Bilius implications
In-Reply-To: <c274uj+33r1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c275i4+h0bk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92017

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Erin" <erinellii at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" 
> <arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
> > 
> > So, Lupin is a half blood. Is that significant?
> > 
> > And Ron's middle name is Bilius.
> > Now where have I seen that name before?
> 
> 
> Oh, god, Uncle Bilius was Ron's uncle who saw a grim and died within 
> 24 hours!!!!
> 
> Does this have "grim" implications for Ron, especially since JKR 
> hinted !again! that he might die??????

Oh, this is going to  be fun!
All the FEATHERBOAS will be having a field day!
Yippee!
Must start devising a suitable end for Ron. Now let's see....
Of course! Spiders are his phobia. Aragog has him for lunch.

Kneasy




From erinellii at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  4 12:07:46 2004
From: erinellii at yahoo.com (Erin)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 12:07:46 -0000
Subject: JKR chat- Bilius implications
In-Reply-To: <c275i4+h0bk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2766i+6mbq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92018

Erin:
> > Oh, god, Uncle Bilius was Ron's uncle who saw a grim and died 
within 
> > 24 hours!!!!
> > 
> > Does this have "grim" implications for Ron, especially since JKR 
> > hinted !again! that he might die??????
> 
Kneasy:
> Oh, this is going to  be fun!
> All the FEATHERBOAS will be having a field day!
> Yippee!
> Must start devising a suitable end for Ron. Now let's see....
> Of course! Spiders are his phobia. Aragog has him for lunch.

Erin:
I consider myself a FEATHERBOA, but I want legions of minor 
characters slaughtered, not Ron!!!!

JKR did say in another chat that we would see Aragog again, didn't 
she?

But surely she wouldn't do that to poor Ron. I mean, if she has to 
kill him, that would be too cruel.  Look at the way she wimped out on 
Cedric and Sirius, and you think we're gonna watch Ron get chomped on 
by a giant spider?  Unless... maybe *Dumbledore* gets eaten by a 
spider... and we find out later that he's really Ron...

Erin





From eloiseherisson at aol.com  Thu Mar  4 12:14:33 2004
From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloise_herisson)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 12:14:33 -0000
Subject: JKR chat  (leading into Snape, naturally)
In-Reply-To: <c274ag+k2e4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c276j9+cn31@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92019

Kneasy: 
> So, Lupin is a half blood. Is that significant?

Well, it gives the poor man even more baggage, I guess: a werewolf 
and not, from a Slytherin pureblood supremacist POV even a *proper* 
wizard at that.

> And Ron's middle name is Bilius.
> Now where have I seen that name before?

It's his uncle's name, as Erinelli pointed out. Some have speculated 
that Bill was named after him, but that now seems rather unlikely, 
don't you think?

> 
> Seems to be lots to brood on in this chat.
> Much to speculate about, even (especially!) from the
> carefully calculated non-answers. It'll take weeks to
> draw all the inferences out and attempt to reach
> reasonable conclusions. Oh, goody!

Yes. I'm just hoping that the hints she dropped this time about 
finding out more about Snape later actually lead to a little more 
than we found out in OoP. So much promised: his worst fear; his 
backstory; more on the "Prank"; whether he is the DE gone for ever. 

But then, I wish the whole series were entitled, _Severus Snape and 
the...._ with the content adjusted accordingly. ;-)

So what *would* Severus'worst fear, be, I wonder? He's brave, but 
worst fears are not necessarily for personal safety. Could it be 
something more personal? Could it be something like the death of 
Harry himself, knowing that the future of the WW depends on him?
JKR's reluctance to tell must mean that what he fears either has 
direct significance for the story, or that it tells us so much about 
his character/experiences that we can predict future action.


~Eloise





From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Thu Mar  4 12:46:41 2004
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 12:46:41 -0000
Subject: JKR chat  (leading into Snape, naturally)
In-Reply-To: <c276j9+cn31@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c278fh+bhab@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92020

Eloise wrote:

> So what *would* Severus' worst fear, be, I wonder? 

IMO, that he will give way again to the temptations of the Dark 
Arts.  After all, his worst memory is that he rejected help from a 
female, muggle-born, Gryffindor (all this underpants stuff is just a 
red herring, surely).

David




From belijako at online.no  Thu Mar  4 13:00:17 2004
From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 13:00:17 -0000
Subject: JKR chat- Bilius implications
In-Reply-To: <c275i4+h0bk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c27991+um5j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92021

Kneasy wrote:
And Ron's middle name is Bilius.
Now where have I seen that name before?

<uncle Bilius was Ron's uncle who saw a grim and died within 
24 hours!!!!>

Must start devising a suitable end for Ron. Now let's see....
Of course! Spiders are his phobia. Aragog has him for lunch.

Berit replies:

I don't know. I'm not sure I see Ron being closer to death just 
because he shares his Uncle's name, though it might be Rowling's way 
of dropping hints... Rather, the new information on Ron's middle name 
makes me take a second look at the unfortunate circumstances 
surrounding Uncle Bilius's death... Dropped dead; 24 hours after 
seeing a grim? Now; we know from Rowling's point of view (through the 
words of Hermione) that the omen of a grim is pure superstition and 
it is highly unlikely a "real" grim was sent as a fore-warning of 
Bilius's death. His death could of course have been caused by the 
terrifying sight of a great black dog; he could have died of fright. 
It happens :-) Uncle Bilius's might have had a weak heart or 
something. Now, IF Uncle Bilius indeed saw a great black dog, THAT'S 
pretty interesting! What was the black dog doing, frightening the 
wits out of poor Uncle Bilius? We already know a "grim" from the HP 
books: Sirius the animagus. Could Sirius somehow be connected to 
Uncle Bilius's death? I'm not saying he's the killer, but that he 
happened to be there for some reason?

Any thoughts?

Berit J
http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Thu Mar  4 13:03:31 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 13:03:31 -0000
Subject: Did Harry "die" [was: Re: In the beginning]
In-Reply-To: <c26d6k+8ho7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c279f3+j1jt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92022

Susan:
> > See?  This is where I'm losing it.  At first, I thought this was 
> > posited as **Harry** essentially died and was replaced with a 
> > portion of VOLDEMORT'S essence, while a vaporized form of Voldy 
> also whipped off to try to rebuild.  But now as I read this, it 
> > sounds as if you're saying HARRY survived and his life force is 
> > inside Voldy.
> > 
> > I'm not saying I don't like the idea, and I'm not trying to 
> > nitpick.  [Really!]  I'm just trying to understand what it is 
> > you're suggesting might have happened.  
> > 
> > Siriusly Snapey Susan
> 
Sue's explanation:
> Okay, again, with an attempt at clarity.  I am basically 
> defining "life force" as something non-specific to a person.  Not a 
> soul, in other words.  Here's my thinking: AK kills the person, ie. 
> removes the life force.  The soul travels on to where ever souls go 
> and the body is left behind.  The soul in this instance would 
contain 
> the personality, memories etc. of the person AKed.  The life force 
is 
> destroyed and the person dead.
> 
> With this in mind then, AK hits the charmed baby Harry, destroying 
> his life force, while at the same instant rebounding (I will add 
here 
> that for this to have happened, the AK curse now carries with it 
> Lilly's charm) on Voldemort, destroying his body, and sending his 
> life force back to Harry.  Harry's soul had no time to leave and 
> before the body died, Voldemort's life force enters Harry's body, 
> saves the baby and carries with it some very interesting baggage. 
> Harry is saved, Voldemort is vaper and the "old magic" Lily used 
> worked beautifully, but had some odd side effects.  Soooooo, 
> Harry "died" without dying.
> 
> Here's the short form:
> 1.Lilly charms Harry
> 
> 2.AK hits Harry, destroys life force, picks up charm and rebounds 
on V
> Charmed AK destroys V's body and sends life force back to Harry 
> (along with baggage)
> 
> 3. Harry receives life force and some odd skills
> 
> 4. What is left of Voldemort is gone (he did some interesting charm 
> work too), Harry (new and improved)lives with nothing but a scar.
> 
> Confused?  Me too, I said I needed an aspirin.
> 

Susan again:
Sue, I think I'm more confused by all the Sues and Susans than 
anything else. :-)  And, now that you've explained it, I like it 
MORE, not less.  I wouldn't give it up!!

Siriusly Snapey Susan







From molly at elizabethjewelry.com  Thu Mar  4 13:05:55 2004
From: molly at elizabethjewelry.com (Molly Rahe)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 13:05:55 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat  "The Crucial and Central Question"
Message-ID: <c279jj+5kej@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92023

This was a question from the book day webchat:

 "Right at the beginning, when Voldermort tried to kill Harry, how did
Voldermort and Harry both survive? *Schools Competition Winner*
JK Rowling replies -> That is the crucial and central question and if
I answered it there would be hardly any point writing books six and
seven... so I won't! "


So my question to you all, what is your theory's behind this?
Could it be possible that they are one and the same, why the prophecy
states that neither can live in the same world together, (or what ever
exactly it says)? Are Voldemort and Harry the same, but seperated by
timetravel, loss of memory, some magical event?

Or is it the Lily theory? With her love being stronger than death, and
that is also how Harry manages to kill voldy in the end?

I don't have any firm theory's, and I am asking you for yours!
But wasn't it cool to be there when she was asnwering questions! 


Why?! oh Why?! for love of God did stupid questions get past whomever
was monitering this?
We could have found out for once and all if Blaise was a girl or a boy
or asked good stuff on Snape and the Mauraders or even the Dumbleron
Theory, but NOOO!! We found out for the 100th time how quidditch was
formed. Bleah! Well, I am still very very gratfull she did the chat!

Sorry if this post is like another ones, I haven't read all the
current ones before I posted this. Shame on me if this is a repeat!

Twiggymolly




From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net  Thu Mar  4 13:15:36 2004
From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 7:15:36 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR chat
Message-ID: <20040304131536.ECOD1634.out006.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 92024

**feeling vindicated about the whole Vampy Snape thing**

Also actaully like the fact that ALL the Fab Four were Gryffs--it only helps to underscore that just because you're in the same house, you won't all be cookie-cutter copies of each other.

So, based on those two things, here's a few offerings...

1) The 'Vampire' has either 
a) yet to show it's toothy face, or 
b) is either Voldemort, or the dementors as a race--since both has displayed actual characteristic vampiric tendencies in the guise of feeding off other creatures in some way, shape or form. Disappointing for those of us wanting to see a 'traditional' vamp, but oh well...

2) If Gryffs can be so diverse (James' often reckless, if 'brave' tendency for adventure and diversion, Sirius's bullying (yes, that was in effect *before* he went to Azkaban--just listen to Remus) and near-carelessness in regards to anything that doesn't catch HIS attention, Peter's pandering 'loyalty' (that twists later into a total betrayal of his one time friends), and Remus's almost passive reaction to most things in his life, then there, by logic, SHOULD be a 'good' Slytherin around somewhere (probably a majority of the House, to be honest). Let's hope Harry finally runs into one he likes and thus acknowledges accordingly for the sake of the readers...^^

(Hmmm...there's a thought--Harry's next 'love interest' being a Slyth...ack, I'm shipping...help!)

Anne


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nzcate at hotmail.com  Thu Mar  4 11:17:05 2004
From: nzcate at hotmail.com (nzcate)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 11:17:05 -0000
Subject: JK's latest revelations
Message-ID: <c2737h+8csq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92025

Hi folks, 

decided to delurk (newbie here)to throw out some of JK's answers to 
the World Book Day festival chat for discussion...

Some points that stood out to me were:

1) All the old gang (James etc) were in Gryffindor
2) There's no relationship between Snape & vampires
3) "Assuming he lives"...Ron has a future outside school ???!! 
(hoping she's teasing here!)
4) Sirius is dead - but not "gone" - very mysterious here, but some 
link to the mirror which also got a mention?
5) The colour of Harry's eyes is of significance
6) Dumbledore is still a force to be reckoned with
7) Myrtle will be back
8) Percy is acting of his own accord


*Phew!* There was quite alot more, but still not enough for those 
wanting the answers NOW!!!

Am really enjoying your incredibly thought out posts folks.
Cheers, 

NZ Cate





From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Thu Mar  4 13:35:24 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 13:35:24 -0000
Subject: Newbie and some questions about Slytherins
In-Reply-To: <200403041200.27672.silmariel@telefonica.net>
Message-ID: <c27bas+ofo4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92026

> Krissy:
> > > Ok, ok, I admit...I like the Slytherins. I feel kind of bad for
> > > them, because I don't know how many of them even have a freewill
> > > to decide how they behave and treat people.

> Siriusly Snapey Susan:
> > It may not be an
> > *easy* road to take to defy parents or tradition, but everyone
> > certainly has free will.  Isn't that just about the most major 
< < theme of the series to far, that it's more about our *choices* 
> > than anything else?

> Silmariel: 
> This is about choices? Well, a Griffindor chosed to Crucio another 
> human being and I'm not saying he's a bad rotten apple. Have a 
> Slytherin do it with identical motives and he'd be judged by 
> the 'unforgivable' law. Slytherins are excluded and in that 
> position is not no easy to choose. When gryffindor chose the 'good' 
> side, they are taking the easy path. After all, it is what we 
> expect from them.
> 
> If a Griffindor in Harry's year is affected by his family 
> prejudices, to ask that Slytherins, heavily prejudiced families, 
> suddenly choose, is kind of a miracle. 
<snip>
> But we don't have a clue of how the Slytherin house member's are. 
> We know only the side that Harry knows, and Harry is a greatly 
> prejudiced witness.


Susan:
First, do we know that when a Gryffindor chooses the "good side", 
it's only because it's "easy"?  It may be more "in their nature", but 
that doesn't mean it's easy all the time.  

Second, Harry certainly *is* a prejudiced witness, and I think that's 
why lots of us are anxious to get to know some Slytherins better 
somehow.  

Third, ANYONE who stereotypes is at fault, no matter what house 
he/she is in.  I don't doubt that there is a LOT of stereotyping 
going on, by the Gryffindors, the Slytherins, and even by staff 
members like Hagrid.  But I still don't see how this says an 
individual's actions aren't based upon free will and their own 
choices.  As I said originally, I'm not saying the road is *easy* but 
that it's **possible**.  This is also what DD said when he said one 
must choose what is right over what is EASY.  He didn't say "wrong", 
but "easy".  Interesting choice of words.  

I taught high school in an area which has had a long reputation for 
Ku Klux Klan activity & a generally pervasive racist attitude.  Some 
of the students I had in class came from families where all they'd 
heard was that Blacks were "niggers" or that we don't want "those 
people" around, taking "our" jobs.  Did that mean I was going to 
allow those kids to spout off their canned racist remarks in my 
classroom?  Hell, no!  Slytherins, Gryffindors, Ravenclaws, whomever--
stereotyping is a dangerous thing.  You don't get off the hook just 
because it's what your parents or grandparents thought.  It's not 
EASY, but choosing to listen & think as an individual is part of what 
education is all about.  The sorting hat raises this issue when it 
talks about the need to unite.  CHOOSING to raise a glass to Cedric 
or Harry is another example.  It's a harder choice for Slytherins, we 
assume, because of the pressures & stereotypes.  But even some 
Gryffindors [Seamus, anyone?] have to think long & hard about what & 
whom they believe in.

Not sure if this is addressing, exactly, what you were saying, 
Silmariel.  Sorry, if it's not.

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From entropymail at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  4 13:38:10 2004
From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 13:38:10 -0000
Subject: JKR chat
In-Reply-To: <20040304131536.ECOD1634.out006.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <c27bg2+79ok@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92027

Okay, just a few short remarks:

1. Interesting that she said Regulus is dead, but wouldn't really say
that about Sirius! Leaving the door open for a return? Yay!

2. Snape is not a vampire! Yay!

3. Who let the questions in about why did she choose to do a book
about wizards? Who cares? Grrrr....

4. Percy was acting of his own accord in OOP. Wow, that takes a lot of
air out of quite a few Percy theories.

and, finally,

5. A bit surprised about her answer regarding Harry's scar. I was sure
it was a rune!

Well, that's my brief synopsis. Must go study the interview in minute
detail now!  ;)

:: Entropy ::




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Thu Mar  4 14:12:02 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 14:12:02 -0000
Subject: JKR chat- Bilius implications
In-Reply-To: <c27991+um5j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c27dfi+gk1m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92028

> 
> Berit replies:
> 
> I don't know. I'm not sure I see Ron being closer to death just 
> because he shares his Uncle's name, though it might be Rowling's 
way 
> of dropping hints... Rather, the new information on Ron's middle 
name 
> makes me take a second look at the unfortunate circumstances 
> surrounding Uncle Bilius's death... Dropped dead; 24 hours after 
> seeing a grim? Now; we know from Rowling's point of view (through 
the 
> words of Hermione) that the omen of a grim is pure superstition and 
> it is highly unlikely a "real" grim was sent as a fore-warning of 
> Bilius's death. His death could of course have been caused by the 
> terrifying sight of a great black dog; he could have died of 
fright. 
> It happens :-) Uncle Bilius's might have had a weak heart or 
> something. Now, IF Uncle Bilius indeed saw a great black dog, 
THAT'S 
> pretty interesting! What was the black dog doing, frightening the 
> wits out of poor Uncle Bilius? We already know a "grim" from the HP 
> books: Sirius the animagus. Could Sirius somehow be connected to 
> Uncle Bilius's death? I'm not saying he's the killer, but that he 
> happened to be there for some reason?
> 



In PoA, I think it was, Lupin admits the marauders had several close 
calls as they wandered around in animal form.  They laughed about the 
close calls later.  Could Bilius have seen Padfoot and mistaken him 
for a grim, just as Harry did? The mauraders would never even know 
about the resulting consequences or may not even know that Padfoot 
was seen that particular time.

Potioncat




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Thu Mar  4 14:18:54 2004
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 14:18:54 -0000
Subject: Chat response - link to script included
Message-ID: <c27dse+meg8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92029

This is my initial response to the chat.  There is plenty to say 
about many of the questions I have deleted, too, but others will say 
it better, or with more proprietorial interest.  I hope to deal with 
the 'central mystery' topic separately; meanwhile, I have mentioned 
it on OTC.

I took the script from ever-vigilant The Leaky Cauldron (TLC):

http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/JKRWorldBookDay2004.html .

Note: TLC have updates the script since the one I copied; my version 
is in reverse time order, I believe.

> miggs: Is there going to be a new minister of magic in the next 
books? 
> 
> JK Rowling replies -> Yes. Ha! Finally, a concrete bit of 
information, I hear you cry!

Yes, indeed.  If the Goblins don't get him, the Heliopaths will.

> Damaged: Will Winky ever recover? 
> 
> JK Rowling replies -> Poor Winky. . . she'll never be entirely 
cured of her Butterbeer addiction, I'm afraid.

Some hope, then.  I wouldn't like for JKR just to abandon her.
 
> Tanya J Potter: If you could change anything about Harry Potter 
what would it be? 
> 
> JK Rowling replies -> There are loads of things I would change. I 
don't think any writer is ever completely happy with what they've 
written. One of these days - once seven is finished - I'll revise all 
seven books.

NOOO!

> Cookie246122: Why did you kill Sirius? It made me very sad :( 
> 
> JK Rowling replies -> I'm really, really sorry. I didn't want to do 
it, but there was a reason. If you think you can forgive me, keep 
reading, you'll find out. [I feel really guilty now].
 
Oho - there's more than we have already? Does she mean in terms of 
plot or theme?

> gazza: will harry become head master of hogwarts 
> 
> JK Rowling replies -> I'm not sure I can see Harry in an academic 
career, he's seen so much action! 

Oh, does he survive, then, Jo?

> Class A. G: Did you base Voldermort on any real people? If so are 
you related to them?! 
> 
> JK Rowling replies -> lol No I didn't base Voldemort on any real 
person! 

Sorry, Cuaron!
 
> novell: I find moaning myrtle is the saddest character in your 
books, inspiring a mixture of revulsion and pity. Does she play any 
further part? 
> 
> JK Rowling replies -> You do see her again. Don't you like her? I 
know she's a bit revolting, but that's why I'm so fond of her.
> 
Yay!
> 
> class 14: If you were a animagus which animal would you be? and 
why? 
> 
> JK Rowling replies -> I gave Hermione my idea animagus, because 
it's my favourite animal. You'll find the answer in the Room of 
Requirement, Order of the Phoenix! 

Animagus = Patronus?  And an admission of Mary-Sue-ism.

> Luisa: How old are Charlie and Bill Weasley in relation to their 
other siblings? 
> 
> JK Rowling replies -> Oh dear, maths. Let me think. Bill is two 
years older than Charlie, who is two years older than Percy.

That's put the cat among the pigeons.  Oh dear.
> 
> Adele: Who are the two "unknown Gryffindor girls" in Harry's year? 
> 
> JK Rowling replies -> Oh, I've just understood what you mean. I 
haven't got the notebook to hand and I can't remember! That's 
terrible. I'll try and remember before the end of the chat! 

So they exist but aren't important.  I suggest we name them Mary and 
Sue.

> Josh from Cottenham Village College: Right at the beginning, when 
Voldermort tried to kill Harry, how did Voldermort and Harry both 
survive? 
> 
> JK Rowling replies -> That is the crucial and central question and 
if I answered it there would be hardly any point writing books six 
and seven. . .
> so I won't!

So there is a mystery to Voldemort's survival.  I'm pleased to learn 
that his uncertainty in the resurrection scene is, indeed, a clue.  I 
think it relates to the birth question, below.

> Echo: Was Percy acting entirely of his own accord in Order of the 
Phoenix? 
> 
> JK Rowling replies -> I'm afraid so.

but could still be a double agent...
 
> Cathedral: Don't want to rune the ending, but will we be finding 
out more about the significance of the shape of Harry's scar in 
future books? 
> 
> JK Rowling replies -> The shape is not the most significant aspect 
of that scar, and that's all I'm going to say! 

Hee.
 
> Arianna: Can we believe everything the sorting hat says? 
> 
> JK Rowling replies -> The Sorting Hat is certainly sincere.

but not nec essarily correct.  OK.
> 
> mnich: Was Voldemort born evil? 
> 
> JK Rowling replies -> I don't believe that anybody was born evil. 
You will find out more about the circumstances of his birth in the 
next book.
> 
Aha - a clue demanding a post in itself.  And the emphasis on 
choices, of course.
> 
> Calliope: Are the Muggle and Magical worlds ever going to be 
rejoined? 
> 
> JK Rowling replies -> No, the breach was final, although as book 
six shows, the Muggles are noticing more and more odd happenings now 
that Voldemort's back.

This rules out a whole raft of redemption scenarios.  The Sorting 
Hat's push for unity stops short at the 4 houses.

> --- kylie: Thanks for writing such wonderful books, Ms Rowling :). 
Just one question: What are Ron, Hermione and Ginny's middle names? 
Thank you :)
> 
> JK Rowling replies -> My pleasure:) Middle names: Ginny is Molly, 
of course, Hermione 'Jane' and Ron, poor boy, is Bilius.

So Bill's middle name is Arthur... 

>Stacey, 11 from Plymouth: If you got the chance to make a Polyjuice 
Potion, who would you be and why? And what would you do in the hour 
time limit? 
> 
> JK Rowling replies -> I'd like to be Tony Blair for an hour. I'd 
call a press conference and announce all the policies I'd like to 
implement!

Interesting impulse.  Very Hermione-like, IMO.

> Kelpie_8: Will the two way mirror Sirius gave Harry ever show up 
again? 
> 
> JK Rowling replies -> Ooooo good question. There's your answer.
> 
A visit through the veil - or just chatting to Ron?

> Rita: Whatever happend to Sirius' flying motorbike?
> 
> JK Rowling replies -> Ah, good question. You'll find out, but the 
real sleuths among you might be able to guess.
> 
Interesting...  Theories?

> Cathedral: Will we be hearing anything from Sirius Black's brother, 
Regulus, in future books?
> 
> JK Rowling replies -> Well, he's dead, so he's pretty quiet these 
days.

there you go, then.  He isn't Stubby Boardman, after all.  On the 
assumption that exactly *one* Quibbler revelation will turn out to be 
at least partly true, things look blacker for Fudge: I see him dying 
at the hands of the Goblins.

> 
> Kirk Wilkins: Will you ever publish all your notebooks of 
information on the series? I am very interested in reading 150 pages 
on the history of the dementors! 
> 
> JK Rowling replies -> lol Who said there were 150 pages on the 
dementors??? I certainly didn't! I don't think I'll ever publish my 
notebooks. Too many revealing doodlings! 

No, that is usually the privilege of descendents.

> Jangles: Are you going to write books about Harry after school?
> 
> JK Rowling replies -> Probably not, but I'll never say never 
because every time I do I immediately break the vow! 
> 
Against stiff competition, the single most significant comment and a 
*big* departure from previous 'when I've finished I'll go on to 
something different' comments.  Personally, I hope she *does* leave 
it at 7 books, on the assumption that she will continue to write: I'd 
rather see what else she is capoable of.

> Rorujin: How is Dobby abele to apparate inside Hogwarts if no one 
else can?
> 
> JK Rowling replies -> He's a house-elf, they've got powers wizards 
haven't got (but wizards have also got powers that house-elves 
haven't).

The simple answers are the best, I guess.  Is enslavement a piece of 
wizard magic?

> SiriuslyLovinSirius: If we ever see Sirius again, what form will he 
be in?
> 
> JK Rowling replies -> I couldn't possibly answer that for fear of 
incriminating myself.

Interesting she didn't say 'We won't see him again' - but she may be 
thinking of, say, Pensieve memories.

David




From molly at elizabethjewelry.com  Thu Mar  4 14:36:19 2004
From: molly at elizabethjewelry.com (Molly Rahe)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 14:36:19 -0000
Subject: Weasley's ages
Message-ID: <c27et3+3isa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92030

O.K. I am realy at a loss here. It seems our beloved author has made a
small error, or someone please point me in the right directing. I am
getting all my info from interviews found on The Lexicon and the books

According to JKR herself, Bill is at least 28 in book 5. Charlie is at
least 14 years older than Harry, because it had been 7 years since
Charlie has been in school by the time Harry arrived (the not winning
a quidditch cup since Charlie thing). In this new interview, she
states that there is two years between the boys. So according to both
of her interviews;
When Harry is 11, Charlie is least 25.
Bill would be 27, as he has to be two years older than Charlie
When oOtP comes about, Charlie is about 29. Bill is 31.
However, in this interview, she has Percy being only two years younger
than Charlie, making him 27, which he is most definatly not.
Oh! Thats it, this is way to contradicting for me! I need help!

(Its only peoples ages Molly, get a grip!)






From hickengruendler at yahoo.de  Thu Mar  4 14:42:25 2004
From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 14:42:25 -0000
Subject: Chat response - link to script included
In-Reply-To: <c27dse+meg8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c27f8h+j3vg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92031

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "davewitley" 
<dfrankiswork at n...> wrote:
 
> 
> > miggs: Is there going to be a new minister of magic in the next 
> books? 
> > 
> > JK Rowling replies -> Yes. Ha! Finally, a concrete bit of 
> information, I hear you cry!
> 
> Yes, indeed.  If the Goblins don't get him, the Heliopaths will.

I say it will be the Dementors. This is pretty horrible, and he 
doesn't deserve this, no matter how unlikeable he is. But it a) would 
probably feel us make sorry for him and b) would be a sort of 
poetical justice, because Fudge used the Dementor's as a weapon (see 
Barty Crouch junior). In this case the Dementors also can prove their 
usefullness for Voldemort, without desouling someone to nice.
> 
> > Cookie246122: Why did you kill Sirius? It made me very sad :( 
> > 
> > JK Rowling replies -> I'm really, really sorry. I didn't want to 
do 
> it, but there was a reason. If you think you can forgive me, keep 
> reading, you'll find out. [I feel really guilty now].
>  
> Oho - there's more than we have already? Does she mean in terms of 
> plot or theme?

Interesting. Really interesting. But I still hope he doesn't come 
back. 

> > Class A. G: Did you base Voldermort on any real people? If so are 
> you related to them?! 
> > 

What a question! Ouch.
>  
> > novell: I find moaning myrtle is the saddest character in your 
> books, inspiring a mixture of revulsion and pity. Does she play any 
> further part? 
> > 
> > JK Rowling replies -> You do see her again. Don't you like her? I 
> know she's a bit revolting, but that's why I'm so fond of her.
> > 
> Yay!

I agree. I love Myrtle. I don't think she is repulsive at all.
 
> 
> > Luisa: How old are Charlie and Bill Weasley in relation to their 
> other siblings? 
> > 
> > JK Rowling replies -> Oh dear, maths. Let me think. Bill is two 
> years older than Charlie, who is two years older than Percy.
> 
> That's put the cat among the pigeons.  Oh dear.

Yes, but it should probably put the theory to rest, that their is a 
missing Weasley child. It's still possible of course, but not near as 
likley as it was before the chat. 
  
> > Kelpie_8: Will the two way mirror Sirius gave Harry ever show up 
> again? 
> > 
> > JK Rowling replies -> Ooooo good question. There's your answer.
> > 

I think we all agree, that this means yes.
 
> 
> > Rita: Whatever happend to Sirius' flying motorbike?
> > 
> > JK Rowling replies -> Ah, good question. You'll find out, but the 
> real sleuths among you might be able to guess.
> > 
> Interesting...  Theories?

Maybe it lives in the Forbidden Forest, like the Ford Anglia?
 
Hickengruendler 




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Thu Mar  4 15:13:39 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 15:13:39 -0000
Subject: More on the chat
Message-ID: <c27h33+sh1r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92032

Aaaaargh!!!

Ernie: I wonder if you can let us know what form will Professor 
Snape's Boggart and Patronus take? I am very curious. 
JK Rowling replies -> Well, I'm not going to tell you Ernie, but 
that's because it would give so much away. I wonder whether Ernie is 
your real name? (It was my grandfather's). 

If JKR hadn't also said "Erm, I don't think so" to whether there's a 
link between Sevvie & vampires, I would have been afraid [since I 
don't like that theory] that his patronus is a bat.  But since she 
DID say there's no link, WHAT ABOUT HIS PATRONUS WOULD "GIVE SO MUCH 
AWAY" about him?  Please, theories, anyone??

Also,
LRGS School: Which character do you most dislike ? 
JK Rowling replies -> Probably Uncle Vernon

Did this surprise anyone else?  He's despicable, yes, but MOST 
disliked by JKR?

My favorite part:  "The trouble is, of course, that girls fancy Tom 
Felton, but Draco is NOT Tom Felton!" 

Siriusly Snapey Susan, whose adrenalin is running high right now 
after reading all this good stuff!






From eloiseherisson at aol.com  Thu Mar  4 15:15:24 2004
From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 10:15:24 EST
Subject: Chat response  (motorbike/Ginny's and Molly's names)
Message-ID: <159.2f37bd79.2d78a20c@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92033

>From the Chat transcript:
> > > Rita: Whatever happend to Sirius' flying motorbike?
> > > 
> > > JK Rowling replies -> Ah, good question. You'll find out, but the 
> > real sleuths among you might be able to guess.
> > > 

David:
> > Interesting...  Theories?

Hickengruendler:
> Maybe it lives in the Forbidden Forest, like the Ford Anglia?


This has always been my fond belief. I like to imagine that they are between 
them bringing up a little family of motorbikes with side cars. Either that, or 
it returned to its enchanter. Now who do we know who just might enchant a 
motorbike to fly? Could it be stashed away in an outbuilding at the Weasleys', 
out of Molly's sight?

Oh, another thing that struck me. If Ginny's middle name is Molly, then 
perhaps Molly *isn't* short for anything. And so perhaps Ginny isn't, though 
Virginia Molly Weasley sounds less Milly Molly Mandy*-like than Ginny Molly Weasley.

~Eloise

*Children's books that most of you are probably too young to remember


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From elfundeb at comcast.net  Thu Mar  4 15:31:12 2004
From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb2)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 15:31:12 -0000
Subject: Weasley's ages
In-Reply-To: <c27et3+3isa@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c27i40+a86q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92034

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Molly Rahe" <molly at e...> wrote:
> O.K. I am realy at a loss here. It seems our beloved author has 
made a
> small error, or someone please point me in the right directing. I am
> getting all my info from interviews found on The Lexicon and the 
books
> 
> According to JKR herself, Bill is at least 28 in book 5. Charlie is 
at
> least 14 years older than Harry, because it had been 7 years since
> Charlie has been in school by the time Harry arrived (the not 
winning
> a quidditch cup since Charlie thing). In this new interview, she
> states that there is two years between the boys. So according to 
both
> of her interviews;
> When Harry is 11, Charlie is least 25.
> Bill would be 27, as he has to be two years older than Charlie
> When oOtP comes about, Charlie is about 29. Bill is 31.
> However, in this interview, she has Percy being only two years 
younger
> than Charlie, making him 27, which he is most definatly not.
> Oh! Thats it, this is way to contradicting for me! I need help!

At least she admitted that math was not her strong point. ;-)

I can see no way to reconcile JKR's latest answer to the books.  If 
Charlie was really only two years older than Percy, why wasn't he 
still at Hogwarts in PS/SS, when Percy was a newly minted fifth year 
prefect?  And it makes no sense to argue that Charlie had just left 
the year before, because that would make nonsense of McGonagall's 
statement (I think it was McGonagall, anyway) that Gryffindor hadn't 
won the Quidditch cup since Charlie Weasley left.

Judging from the way it was phrased, I think JKR made up the answer 
on the spot, and its primary purpose was to scotch all those Missing 
Weasley Child rumors.  Too bad, as that was one of my favorite 
theories. ;-(

Debbie
who doesn't think the assertion that Percy acted on his own precludes 
Umbridge from having a hand in the letter he sent to Ron






From dk59us at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  4 14:55:24 2004
From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 14:55:24 -0000
Subject: All in Gryffindor!!!!  Hah, I knew it!
In-Reply-To: <c27314+m5qe@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c27g0s+48ic@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92035

Erin wrote:
Well, that takes care of that.  JKR has confirmed in the chat that 
MMWP were all in Gryffindor.

Eustace_Scrubb:
Except that the question as shown on the chat site was "What houses
were Sirius Black, Remus Lupin, James Potter and Remus Lupin in?"  The
poster repeated Lupin and didn't mention Wormtail.  Now I assume they
meant to include Wormtail.  But JKR's answer just said "they."

So, though I do guess that Wormtail was in Gryffindor if the other
three were, there's just that wee bit of canonical doubt for
theorizers!

Eustace_Scrubb, who alas wasn't online at 10:00 GMT but is glad for
transcripts.





From karen.lyall at blueyonder.co.uk  Thu Mar  4 15:05:22 2004
From: karen.lyall at blueyonder.co.uk (karenlyall666)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 15:05:22 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat
Message-ID: <c27gji+j1ft@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92036

JKR Chat ref:
Luisa: How old are Charlie and Bill Weasley in relation to their 
other siblings? 
JK Rowling replies -> Oh dear, maths. Let me think. Bill is two years 
older than Charlie, who is two years older than Percy. 

Taking the above as 'fact' add the seven year rule from POA and the 
PS/SS quote of not having won "since Charlie left".

What theories have we got.
1) Charlie left school early?
2) Charlie left the team earlier than 7th year?
3) JKR can't remember what she's already written?

Let me know if there are any other possibilities, because she's now 
sent my timeline into mass confusion.

Karen





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Mar  4 15:31:48 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 15:31:48 -0000
Subject: Snape NOT a Vampire (Was  The Marauders are all Gryffindors)
In-Reply-To: <c273hi+gs0i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c27i54+vudu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92037

> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" <Ali at z...> 
wrote:JKR also appeared to shoot down the theory about Snape 
being a vampire. No doubt some will argue that there is wriggle 
room in  what  she said though?
> > 
> > Ali,
Catherine:
> Yes, and we should therefore all commiserate with Pippin on 
this,  and take our hats off to Amanda, who had faith all along.
> 

Ahh well. ::takes off hat to Amanda:: JKR seems to have drawn a 
bead on my theories: 4 House, vampire!Snape, second 
wandsman at the Graveyard, all sunk or listing badly, although I 
suppose you could argue that maybe Sirius started out in 
Slytherin, that she didn't categorically rule out Vampire!Snape 
and that "Wormtail" could be the alias of more than one Death 
Eater--okay, that's reaching. I concede all three.

But ESE!Lupin has escaped the barrage and even picked up  a 
little ballast.  At least we've been told there *is* more to be 
revealed about why Sirius died and that, YES! there's a trail of 
clues leading to the motorcycle.

Pippin
strangely elated. Could JKR actually have gone  out of her way to 
sink three of my theories because as one of  "the real 
sleuths among you" I got something else  right? and am I 
egotistical or what? ::self-deprecating grin::








From csalgado at rcn.com  Thu Mar  4 13:32:32 2004
From: csalgado at rcn.com (oldone7777)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 13:32:32 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat- Sirius Black
Message-ID: <c27b5g+nai2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92038

Three quotes from the chat:

1.  From Siriulylovinsirus/ Q. If we see Sirius again what form will 
he be in?
Rowling/ I can't possibly answer that for fear of incriminating my 
self.

2.From Kelpie8/ Q.Will the two way mirror Sirius gave Harry ever 
show up again?
Rowling/Ooo good question. That's your answer.

3.From cookie246122/ Q. Why kill Sirius..(snip)?
Rowling/I'm really sorry. I didn't want to do it but there was a 
reason..(snip)..keep readingyou'll find out...(snip).

Ok we know Sirius' body probabily won't return but,... his 
reflection giving advice through the mirror? Maybe his spirit can't 
rest till he see things through.

So were not totally rid of him. At the end of the second book after 
advising Harry through the defeat of Voldemort, I suggest Sirius can 
finally rest.

Lauren
(Oldone)
My speculation only





From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Thu Mar  4 15:26:55 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bviridis)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 15:26:55 -0000
Subject: HPfGU Geography - Durmstrang
Message-ID: <c27hrv+rgrl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92039

I guess it has been discussed to death, but as I was kindly directed 
to the Geography section in HPfGU Fantastic Posts, in the section on 
location of Durmstrang, in the Latvia subsection, it's clearly stated:
(quote)
CON: None so far; if you have arguments for this category, please 
bring them up on the list. 

So please put aside your rotten tomatoes or change the note :)

Anyway may arguments for insuitability of Latvia are:
1. flat as a pancake
2. more or less at the same latitude as Hogwarts, so there stressing 
"very short days in winter" won't have so much sense.

Personally I vote for Karelia region, because:
1. it's on the extreme border of German influence
2. the hills - small ones - are sligtly bigger than in Latvia; terrain 
there is more rugged
3. more to north than Scotland (~Shetlands/Faroe)

Cheers, Viridis
PS. Can somebody explain to me the sense of existence of the nearly 
identically named yahoo groups (Hary_Potter_for_Grownups and HP (Harry 
 Potter)forGrownups? This a rhetorical question, BTW. 





From karen.lyall at blueyonder.co.uk  Thu Mar  4 15:28:50 2004
From: karen.lyall at blueyonder.co.uk (karenlyall666)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 15:28:50 -0000
Subject: Charlie and Bill's Ages
Message-ID: <c27hvi+ajah@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92040

Okay it's official.  I knew something wasn'y quite right when JKR 
said all the Weasley boys were born two years apart.  If this is the 
case Charlie would have to have been at school with Harry et all...

Sorry for the short post but if the moderator could stick it onto my 
previous post called JKR Chat that would be good.

Karen





From stevejjen at earthlink.net  Thu Mar  4 15:40:49 2004
From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 15:40:49 -0000
Subject: Chat response  (motorbike/Ginny's and Molly's names)
In-Reply-To: <159.2f37bd79.2d78a20c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <c27im1+nu36@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92041

>From the chat transcript:

Rita: Whatever happend to Sirius' flying motorbike?

JK Rowling replies -> Ah, good question. You'll find out, but the 
real sleuths among you might be able to guess.

> Hickengruendler:
> > Maybe it lives in the Forbidden Forest, like the Ford Anglia?

Eloise: 

> This has always been my fond belief. I like to imagine that they 
are between 
> them bringing up a little family of motorbikes with side cars. 


Jen: That was my first thought, too--the bike's in the Forbidden 
Forest. JKR said 'real sleuths' among us would be able to guess. 
Well, what clues do we have? Just that Hagrid was the last one in 
possession of the bike. Or the last person we see with it. It makes 
sense he took the motorbike back to Hogwarts.


Eloise:
Either that, or 
> it returned to its enchanter. Now who do we know who just might 
enchant a 
> motorbike to fly? Could it be stashed away in an outbuilding at 
the Weasleys', 
> out of Molly's sight?

Jen: Or somehow the bike got sent to Arthur's department 
for 'disposal' so he just took it home to tinker with it. I like 
this theory better than the Forbidden Forest because it fits in so 
well with Arthur's character. Seems strange none of the kids would 
have found it by now,though, 15+ years later.






From rredordead at aol.com  Thu Mar  4 15:51:27 2004
From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 15:51:27 -0000
Subject: The Marauders are all Gryffindors
In-Reply-To: <c27328+m6i1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c27j9v+4e1o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92042

Yes. Hats off to all you who were right!  
As I was a solid believer in the Marauders being in either Slyth or 
different houses, I'm eating my words as I write this. ;-)
Cheers Mandy




From sam2sar at charter.net  Thu Mar  4 15:55:19 2004
From: sam2sar at charter.net (sam2sar)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 15:55:19 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat
In-Reply-To: <c27gji+j1ft@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c27jh7+cl9v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92043

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "karenlyall666" 
<karen.lyall at b...> wrote:
> JKR Chat ref:
> Luisa: How old are Charlie and Bill Weasley in relation to their 
> other siblings? 
> JK Rowling replies -> Oh dear, maths. Let me think. Bill is two 
years 
> older than Charlie, who is two years older than Percy. 
> 
> Taking the above as 'fact' add the seven year rule from POA and 
the 
> PS/SS quote of not having won "since Charlie left".
> 
> What theories have we got.
> 1) Charlie left school early?
> 2) Charlie left the team earlier than 7th year?
> 3) JKR can't remember what she's already written?
> 
> Let me know if there are any other possibilities, because she's 
now 
> sent my timeline into mass confusion.
> 
> Karen

Maybe he did leave early.  Do you have to come back for 6th and 7th 
years? Not everyone needs to get there Newts.  Since the twins were 
able to leave early maybe Charlie did too.

Sam




From editor at texas.net  Thu Mar  4 15:54:44 2004
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 15:54:44 -0000
Subject: He is NOT! He is NOT!
Message-ID: <c27jg4+bmj5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92044

*****HAH!********

I >>>SO<<< told you so!!!

>From J.K. Rowling's World Book Day Chat: March 4, 2004:

Megan: Is there a link between Snape and vampires? 
JK Rowling replies -> Erm... I don't think so. 

~Amandageist, premier Snapologist and 100% then-and-now nonbeliever 
in Vampire!Snape, reveling in the heady wine of the highest of high-
level validations






From maneelyfh at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  4 15:56:24 2004
From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 15:56:24 -0000
Subject: My fav Q and A from todays chat w/ JKR
Message-ID: <c27jj8+1tu5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92045



miggs: Is there going to be a new minister of magic in the next books?
JK Rowling replies -> Yes. Ha! Finally, a concrete bit of 
information, I hear you cry!

hope this means Arthur is getting his due.  Also, hope it indicates 
that Fudge is in fact a DE as I have theorized!

Kaidi MacKay: Dumbledore is getting older, will it be alot harder for 
him to fight Lord Voldermort this time around?
JK Rowling replies -> He is getting older, but he didn't do badly at 
the end of 'Phoenix', so there's life in him yet!

I have been hoping that DD will be there to the end. IMHO it would be 
a shame for DD not to see Harry defeat LV!
Yes I absolutely think that this is what will happen


HarriFreak: Who is the 'one that never will return' deatheater?
JK Rowling replies -> You have to work it out, but a lot of fansites 
have got it right.
Ali: Why specifically does Dumbledore trust Snape? 
JK Rowling replies -> Another excellent and non-answerable question. 
I shall merely say that Snape has given Dumbledore his story and 
Dumbledore believes it.

I think Snape lied to DD as he is good as legitemency and occlumency 
(? spelling) and he is not 'one that never will return' but the 
dreaded double agent.


book: why did voldemort pick harry and not neville
JK Rowling replies -> Dumbledore explains this in 'Order of the 
Phoenix'. Voldemort identified more with the half-blood boy and 
therefore decided he must be the greater risk.

Guess this lays to rest any theories that the prophecy was not about 
Harry


gazza: will harry become head master of hogwarts
JK Rowling replies -> I'm not sure I can see Harry in an academic 
career, he's seen so much action!
Debbie: What will Ron's job be when he leaves school?
JK Rowling replies -> Well, assuming he lives to leave school... I'm 
not going to tell you :)

hmmmmmmm so will Ron die? I will definitely shed tears over this one 
if it occurs




Sussie: Does Harry's eyecolour become important in the future books, 
like we've heard?
JK Rowling replies -> No comment!
mnich: Was Voldemort born evil?
JK Rowling replies -> I don't believe that anybody was born evil. You 
will find out more about the circumstances of his birth in the next 
book.
Josh from Cottenham Village College: Right at the beginning, when 
Voldermort tried to kill Harry, how did Voldermort and Harry both 
survive? ****SCHOOLS COMPETITION WINNER****
JK Rowling replies -> That is the crucial and central question and if 
I answered it there would be hardly any point writing books six and 
seven... so I won't!
Rita: What happend to Harry's grandparents? Will we ever learn about 
them?
JK Rowling replies -> They're all dead and not particularly important 
to the story, although you will find out a little bit more.
mnich: Was Voldemort born evil?
JK Rowling replies -> I don't believe that anybody was born evil. You 
will find out more about the circumstances of his birth in the next 
book.
Jami: Is Harry related to Godric Gryffindor?
JK Rowling replies -> People are always wondering who Harry might be 
related to. Maybe he is ;)

My theory here is that Harry and LV are related. Also Harry is 
related to Slyterin and Grffindor. Griffindor via james, and (nice 
little twist) Slytherin via Lily.  Green eyes, Slytherin house colors 
green and silver. Also may be the reason why Lv did not want to kill 
Lily as they are related and she is related to Slytherin!! In COS, 
Harry flet that Tom Riddle was vaguely familiar......


Ernie: I wonder if you can let us know what form will Professor 
Snape's Boggart and Patronus take? I am very curious. 
JK Rowling replies -> Well, I'm not going to tell you Ernie, but 
that's because it would give so much away. I wonder whether Ernie is 
your real name? (It was my grandfather's).

Any guesses here?


Amy: What did Dudley see when he faced the Dementors in book five?
JK Rowling replies -> Ah, good question. You'll find out!

I ownder if there will finally be some friendly dialogue between 
Harry and Dudley....Dudley asking Harry about the event etc.

queenmarion: I noticed in the Black Family tree that everyone is 
named after a constellation. Is this intentional? Does this have any 
bearing on the plot?
JK Rowling replies -> It's just one of those family traditions, 
although Narcissa breaks the trend. I had always thought of her 
as 'Narcissa' so I decided not to change her to match the others when 
I came up with their names. There's been a lot of speculation that 
she is in some way linked to Lily and Petunia, because of the flower 
theme, but I can put that rumour to rest here: she isn't related to 
them.
Wild Rose: Will we see more of Narcissa Malfoy now that Lucius is 
unavailale?
JK Rowling replies -> Yes, you will.

If Narcissa's name breaks the trend, does that mean she is not as 
evil as Lucious? Probably just my wishful thinking!

Echo: Was Percy acting entirely of his own accord in Order of the 
Phoenix?
JK Rowling replies -> I'm afraid so. 
I wonder if Percy will loose his position at MOM along with Fudge?

MauraEllen: Did the debt Wormtail has to Harry carry over to 
Voldemort when he sacrificed his arm to restore his body?
JK Rowling replies -> No. Can't say any more than that!



Cathedral: Don't want to rune the ending, but will we be finding out 
more about the significance of the shape of Harry's scar in future 
books?
JK Rowling replies -> The shape is not the most significant aspect of 
that scar, and that's all I'm going to say!

Aha, so there is more to the scar than we know!  I think this was 
indicated in PS/SS when DD tells McGonagal he would not fix the scar 
even if he could...scars can be very useful










Field: Regarding Harrys subconscious feelings, how has it changed 
from book 1 to book 5?
JK Rowling replies -> Well he's obviously been through a lot since 
book one and book five was the book when he cracked up a little. In 
book six, the wizarding world is really at war again and he has to 
master his own feelings to make himself useful.

polly weasley: Will Harry fall for another girl in book six, or will 
he be too busy for romance?
JK Rowling replies -> He'll be busy, but what's life without a little 
romance?

Rorujin: How is Dobby abele to apparate inside Hogwarts if no one 
else can?
JK Rowling replies -> He's a house-elf, they've got powers wizards 
haven't got (but wizards have also got powers that house-elves 
haven't).




SiriuslyLovinSirius: If we ever see Sirius again, what form will he 
be in?
JK Rowling replies -> I couldn't possibly answer that for fear of 
incriminating myself.
Kelpie_8: Will the two way mirror Sirius gave Harry ever show up 
again? 
JK Rowling replies -> Ooooo good question. There's your answer.

So Sirius will show up again somehow? Via the mirror? Or will Sirius 
show up in a memory. Jkr stated that the conflict between Sirius and 
Snape will be further expalined. May be that this is what she meant.


Rita: What about Wormtail? Is there hope for redemption?
JK Rowling replies -> There's always hope, of course. You'll find out 
more about our rat-like friend in book six.

Rita: Whatever happend to Sirius' flying motorbike?
JK Rowling replies -> Ah, good question. You'll find out, but the 
real sleuths among you might be able to guess.

Maybe Harry inherits it?


Sirius Riddle: What houses were Sirius Black, Remus Lupin, James 
Potter and Remus Lupin in? Everyone tells me they were all 
Gryffindor, but I won't believe it unless I hear it from Ms. Rowling 
herself!
JK Rowling replies -> JK Rowling says: This is JK herself saying that 
they were indeed in Gryffindor!

I always thought they were in Griffindor as they were such good 
friends.  You never saw any other characters from different houses 
being close.  And james was Griffindor seeker!!!  Guess you can't 
totally disregard movie contamination.......




From editor at texas.net  Thu Mar  4 15:57:38 2004
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 15:57:38 -0000
Subject: Snape NOT a Vampire (Was  The Marauders are all Gryffindors)
In-Reply-To: <c27i54+vudu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c27jli+tjp9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92046

> Catherine:
> > Yes, and we should therefore all commiserate with Pippin on 
> this,  and take our hats off to Amanda, who had faith all along.
> > 

Pippin:
> 
> Ahh well. ::takes off hat to Amanda::

Oh, I'm sorry--I got so excited I posted my gloat before I saw your 
hats there. [cannot contain self, does happy dance] See, Catherine, 
the ingredients list *was* correct!

> But ESE!Lupin has escaped the barrage and even picked up  a 
> little ballast.  At least we've been told there *is* more to be 
> revealed about why Sirius died and that, YES! there's a trail of 
> clues leading to the motorcycle.

Okay, that one was weird, can someone post what clues they have on 
that? Like, anything? Coming from a L.O.O.N., I can't think of any 
right offhand.

~Validated!Amanda, passing out conciliatory butterbeers with barely 
concealed jubilation





From maneelyfh at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  4 16:01:38 2004
From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 16:01:38 -0000
Subject: All in Gryffindor!!!!  Hah, I knew it!
In-Reply-To: <c27g0s+48ic@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c27jt2+ou9v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92047

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eustace_Scrubb" <dk59us at y...> 
wrote:
> Erin wrote:
> Well, that takes care of that.  JKR has confirmed in the chat that 
> MMWP were all in Gryffindor.
> 
> Eustace_Scrubb:
> Except that the question as shown on the chat site was "What houses
> were Sirius Black, Remus Lupin, James Potter and Remus Lupin in?"  
The
> poster repeated Lupin and didn't mention Wormtail.  Now I assume 
they
> meant to include Wormtail.  But JKR's answer just said "they."
> 

I thnk all of us who thought that the marauders where in Griffindor 
are now redeemed and rejoicing.  I also poseted that James was on the 
Griffindor Quidditch team, then realized it was from movie 
contamination....But I was right! wonder if there is any other movie 
contaminations that may give other clues as well?
Fran




From stevejjen at earthlink.net  Thu Mar  4 16:15:15 2004
From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 16:15:15 -0000
Subject: Chat: Not Born Evil...
Message-ID: <c27kmj+flnv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92048

mnich: Was Voldemort born evil? 
JK Rowling replies -> I don't believe that anybody was born evil. 
You will find out more about the circumstances of his birth in the 
next book. 

Jen: I found this the most compelling answer in the whole chat. So 
there's more to LV's birth than previously mentioned, maybe 
something Tom Riddle didn't know about? He had to piece his history 
together from Muggle records which wouldn't include any unexplained 
magic events. Very interesting.

That seems to support the idea that LV could still have a drop of 
humanity in him from Tom Riddle, before he turned evil! I sense some 
mercy/redemption coming our way via Harry.




From meriaugust at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  4 16:23:27 2004
From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 16:23:27 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat
In-Reply-To: <c27jh7+cl9v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c27l5v+hn8g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92049

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sam2sar" <sam2sar at c...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "karenlyall666" 
> <karen.lyall at b...> wrote:
> > JKR Chat ref:
> > Luisa: How old are Charlie and Bill Weasley in relation to their 
> > other siblings? 
> > JK Rowling replies -> Oh dear, maths. Let me think. Bill is two 
> years 
> > older than Charlie, who is two years older than Percy. 
> > 
> > Taking the above as 'fact' add the seven year rule from POA and 
> the 
> > PS/SS quote of not having won "since Charlie left".
> > 
> > What theories have we got.
> > 1) Charlie left school early?
> > 2) Charlie left the team earlier than 7th year?
> > 3) JKR can't remember what she's already written?
> > 
> > Let me know if there are any other possibilities, because she's 
> now 
> > sent my timeline into mass confusion.
> > 
> > Karen
> 
> Maybe he did leave early.  Do you have to come back for 6th and 7th 
> years? Not everyone needs to get there Newts.  Since the twins were 
> able to leave early maybe Charlie did too.
> 
> Sam

Also we assume that the Quidditch house cup was played every year 
that Charlie was at shcool. I can't imagine that Hogwarts just 
started to get exciting/dangerous upon Harry's arrival. Perhaps there 
were tournament cancellations before Charlie's graduation due to, 
well, any number of things. Or else he got a real good dragon related 
internship that he couldn't pass up. 
Meri




From hickengruendler at yahoo.de  Thu Mar  4 16:47:30 2004
From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 16:47:30 -0000
Subject: Disliked Uncle Vernon (was: More on the chat=
In-Reply-To: <c27h33+sh1r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c27mj2+7b4t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92050

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" 
<susiequsie23 at s...> wrote:
 
> 
> Also,
> LRGS School: Which character do you most dislike ? 
> JK Rowling replies -> Probably Uncle Vernon
> 
> Did this surprise anyone else?  He's despicable, yes, but MOST 
> disliked by JKR?
> 

Yes, I was a bit surprised, too. If you consider some other suspects, 
Voldemort, Bellatrix, the Malfoys, Umbridge, Wormtail..., it really 
is a bit surprising, that Uncle Vernon is her most disliked 
character. Maybe she just wrote a scene, in which he is particularly 
nasty, and therefore just had him in his minds. Or Vernon will do 
some even more awful things in the future. But personally, this 
answer also made me a bit hopeful. As characters, I like both, Dudley 
and Petunia, and hope that at the end of the series, they will be 
portrayed in a more positive light (OotP with a more mysterious 
Petunia and a broken down and pitiful Dudley hopefully started the 
trend). And if Vernon is her most disliked character, and not "the 
Dursleys", than there might be hope for the other two.

Hickengruendler




From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu  Thu Mar  4 16:56:30 2004
From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 16:56:30 -0000
Subject: My fav Q and A from todays chat w/ JKR
In-Reply-To: <c27jj8+1tu5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c27n3u+frg6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92051

"maneelyfh" <maneelyfh at y...> wrote:
miggs: Is there going to be a new minister of magic in the next books?
JK Rowling replies -> Yes. Ha! Finally, a concrete bit of 
information, I hear you cry!

hope this means Arthur is getting his due.  Also, hope it indicates 
that Fudge is in fact a DE as I have theorized!
----------------
ARYA NOW:  Don't you think someone like Amelia Bones is much more 
likely to make the jump to MoM?  I mean Arthur is only the head of 
very small (two-man) department...
-------------
"maneelyfh" <maneelyfh at y...> wrote:
Jami: Is Harry related to Godric Gryffindor?
JK Rowling replies -> People are always wondering who Harry might be 
related to. Maybe he is ;)
 
My theory here is that Harry and LV are related. Also Harry is 
related to Slyterin and Grffindor. Griffindor via james, and (nice 
little twist) Slytherin via Lily.  Green eyes, Slytherin house colors 
green and silver. Also may be the reason why Lv did not want to kill 
Lily as they are related and she is related to Slytherin!! In COS, 
Harry flet that Tom Riddle was vaguely familiar......
--------------
ARY NOW:  
Ah, this is also a FAVORITE question as I ASKED IT!!  : )  I haven't 
stopped grinning since!!  YAY!  Okay, settling down now...I think it 
means he does trace his blood back to Godric and that, as many have 
said, Voldemort traces his roots of the 'Dark Lord' back to SLytherin 
as well as his blood, that Harry's connection to Godric is linked to 
part of his Power as The One.  It's all about Gryffindor versus 
Slytherin to me...




From maneelyfh at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  4 17:22:01 2004
From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 17:22:01 -0000
Subject: My fav Q and A from todays chat w/ JKR
In-Reply-To: <c27n3u+frg6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c27ojp+sa4d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92052

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Arya" <dequardo at w...> wrote:
> "maneelyfh" <maneelyfh at y...> wrote:
> miggs: Is there going to be a new minister of magic in the next 
books?
> JK Rowling replies -> Yes. Ha! Finally, a concrete bit of 
> information, I hear you cry!
> 
> hope this means Arthur is getting his due.  Also, hope it indicates 
> that Fudge is in fact a DE as I have theorized!
> ----------------
> ARYA NOW:  Don't you think someone like Amelia Bones is much more 
> likely to make the jump to MoM?  I mean Arthur is only the head of 
> very small (two-man) department...

well ron did make an off-hand comment I believe about his fther 
becoming MOM...and his comments sometimes come true. I cannot 
remember chich book this is in nor can I get to my books to find it 
as I am on crutches!
> -------------
> "maneelyfh" <maneelyfh at y...> wrote:
> Jami: Is Harry related to Godric Gryffindor?
> JK Rowling replies -> People are always wondering who Harry might 
be 
> related to. Maybe he is ;)
>  
> My theory here is that Harry and LV are related. Also Harry is 
> related to Slyterin and Grffindor. Griffindor via james, and (nice 
> little twist) Slytherin via Lily.  Green eyes, Slytherin house 
colors 
> green and silver. Also may be the reason why Lv did not want to 
kill 
> Lily as they are related and she is related to Slytherin!! In COS, 
> Harry flet that Tom Riddle was vaguely familiar......
> --------------

BTW I think it was nice of JKR to give us more food for thought!
Fran
Grffindor Maruaders Rejoice!!!!!!




From capehoneysuckle at earthlink.net  Thu Mar  4 17:27:17 2004
From: capehoneysuckle at earthlink.net (capehoneysuckle)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 17:27:17 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat
In-Reply-To: <c27l5v+hn8g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c27otl+gdl8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92053

Karen wrote:
> > > JKR Chat ref:
> > > Luisa: How old are Charlie and Bill Weasley in relation to their 
> > > other siblings? 
> > > JK Rowling replies -> Oh dear, maths. Let me think. Bill is two 
> > years 
> > > older than Charlie, who is two years older than Percy. 
> > > 
> > > Taking the above as 'fact' add the seven year rule from POA and 
> > the 
> > > PS/SS quote of not having won "since Charlie left".
> > > 
> > > What theories have we got.
> > > 1) Charlie left school early?
> > > 2) Charlie left the team earlier than 7th year?
> > > 3) JKR can't remember what she's already written?
> > > 
> > > Let me know if there are any other possibilities, because she's 
> > now 
> > > sent my timeline into mass confusion.

Sam:
> > Maybe he did leave early.  Do you have to come back for 6th and 7th 
> > years? Not everyone needs to get there Newts.  Since the twins were 
> > able to leave early maybe Charlie did too.

Meri:
> Also we assume that the Quidditch house cup was played every year 
> that Charlie was at shcool. I can't imagine that Hogwarts just 
> started to get exciting/dangerous upon Harry's arrival. Perhaps there 
> were tournament cancellations before Charlie's graduation due to, 
> well, any number of things. Or else he got a real good dragon related 
> internship that he couldn't pass up. 

Honey(me):
I think that the question of the Weasley family timeline is very
interesting, and have long been a fan of the "missing Weasley child"
theory. I agree that the JKR chose to answer this question just for
the purpose of refuting those theories. However, that leaves us to
explain the apparent inconsistencies in the timelime. (Or just call it
a flint, but let's give it a go first.)

I think we must assume that Charlie left Hogwarts after his OWLs,
since it is clearly possible to leave without NEWTs, and he was
apparently neither an academic star or planning a career requiring any
NEWTs. I don't think he was likely to have left before the OWLs, since
an OWL in Care of Magical Creatures probably would have been required
for his job.

Tournament cancellations for the last year or two of Charlie's school
years would work, so we can use that as a last resort if no other
reasonable timeline emerges.

We are constrained by two bits of canon:

1) Oliver Wood's speech before the first Quidditch game in POA,
"Gryffindor haven't won for seven years now." (Bloomsbury paperback
p.108). This would be in the fall of the 1993-94 school year, if we
assume the lexicononical year of Harry's birth.

2) Fred, speaking to Harry after his appointment to the team in
PS/SS,"We haven't won since Charlie left, but this year's team is
going to be brilliant." (Bloomsbury pb p.114). This would be in fall
of the 1991-92 school year.

So let's guess that Wood meant that 1993 was the seventh year since
the last winning Gryffindor quidditch team, so maybe they last won in
the 1987-88 school year. Let's guess that Charlie Weasley left at the
end of that year, and make him 15 at the beginning of that year. Now,
could Percy be two years younger than that?

No. But if JKR was guessing today (sort of sounds like she was), and
make Percy three years younger, and give him a birthday right after
the Hogwart's cut-off date, so that he the oldest in his class, that
would just about do it. Thus we get Charlie born in 1972 (fifteen in
Sept. 1987) and Percy born in fall of 1975 (turning sixteen just
shortly after school starts in 1991).

Just a thought about how the conflicting bits of canon might fit
together without having to posit a flint.

Honey




From CoyotesChild at charter.net  Thu Mar  4 17:40:50 2004
From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (Iggy McSnurd)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 11:40:50 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chat response  (motorbike/Ginny's and Molly's names)
In-Reply-To: <c27im1+nu36@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000101c4020f$d9078450$18667144@Einstein>

No: HPFGUIDX 92054

> Eloise:
> Either that, or
> > it returned to its enchanter. Now who do we know who just might
> enchant a
> > motorbike to fly? Could it be stashed away in an outbuilding at
> the Weasleys',
> > out of Molly's sight?
> 
> Jen: Or somehow the bike got sent to Arthur's department
> for 'disposal' so he just took it home to tinker with it. I like
> this theory better than the Forbidden Forest because it fits in so
> well with Arthur's character. Seems strange none of the kids would
> have found it by now,though, 15+ years later.
> 

Iggy here:

Arthur could have used what made the bike fly to make the car fly...
since a car is more practical for a family than a motorbike.

Iggy McSnurd







From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  4 17:50:45 2004
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 17:50:45 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat- Sirius Black
In-Reply-To: <c27b5g+nai2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c27q9l+imjv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92055

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "oldone7777" <csalgado at r...> 
wrote:
> Ok we know Sirius' body probabily won't return but,... his 
> reflection giving advice through the mirror? Maybe his spirit can't 
> rest till he see things through.
> 
> So were not totally rid of him. At the end of the second book after 
> advising Harry through the defeat of Voldemort, I suggest Sirius 
can 
> finally rest.
> 
> Lauren
> (Oldone)
> My speculation only


He! At least I know I don't have to get rid of my dellusions 
completely. Thanks JKR!


Alla




From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  4 15:12:56 2004
From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (Ms Mo Me)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 07:12:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: JKR Chat  "The Crucial and Central Question"
In-Reply-To: <c279jj+5kej@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040304151256.24117.qmail@web13507.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92056


Twiggymolly wrote: 
> So my question to you all, what is your theory's
> behind this?
> Could it be possible that they are one and the same,
> why the prophecy
> states that neither can live in the same world
> together, (or what ever
> exactly it says)? Are Voldemort and Harry the same,
> but seperated by
> timetravel, loss of memory, some magical event?

I questioned the idea that Voldemort and Harry have
the same powers when the Prophecy stated "He will mark
him as his equal."  How about equal but opposite? 
Harry always fights for what is good.  Voldemort
always fights for what is evil.  Since Harry has shown
signs of Voldemort's abilities, such as parseltounge,
does HP also have all of his other abilities too?

I don't think they are EXACTLY the same, since HP was
living before the attack.  I do think they share
powers.

> 
> Or is it the Lily theory? With her love being
> stronger than death, and
> that is also how Harry manages to kill voldy in the
> end?

Remember in OotP when Dumbledore says - "there are
things worse than death."  And then Dumbledore implies
something about what is behind the locked door.  Also,
he keeps telling Harry that his mother's love saved
him and that it marked him.  Possibly "pure love" is
what is locked behind that door in the department of
Mysteries.  Voldemort wouldn't be able to handle it
and therefore be destroyed finally.  Who knows?





From jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com  Thu Mar  4 18:07:53 2004
From: jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com (mooseming)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 18:07:53 -0000
Subject: Chat response - link to script included
In-Reply-To: <c27dse+meg8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c27r9p+4scg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92057

snip
>  
> > Cathedral: Don't want to rune the ending, but will we be finding 
> out more about the significance of the shape of Harry's scar in 
> future books? 
> > 
> > JK Rowling replies -> The shape is not the most significant aspect 
> of that scar, and that's all I'm going to say! 
> 
> Hee.
>  
> David

rats there goes my the scar is a serpent theory!!!
what else could be significant, size? (I'm not even going there).
Colour, it is silver as I recall like a patronus charm perhaps?
Position, head rather than heart? Or does Tom carry its twin? What is
'the most significant aspect'?
Any ideas?
jo




From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  4 03:15:32 2004
From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (Ms Mo Me)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 19:15:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Newbie and some questions about Slytherins
In-Reply-To: <c25kc2+1pkd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040304031532.28212.qmail@web13508.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92058

Hi!

I'm new here too.

I found your post to be rather interesting and
different from the other posts I have read so far.


Krissy wrote:
> 1.; do 
> the characters in that particular house seem a tad
> two-dimensional 
> to anyone besides me? I mean, can everyone who has
> ever been in 
> Slytherin possibly have been a completely racist
> person,

I don't think that ALL the Slytherins are completely
racist.  The ones we hear of the most are the ones who
give HP and his friends a hard time.  Just like kids
do in school, they want to fit in.  If the "cool"
thing to do is join in with the people who are making
fun of others, then they do - not always because they
want to, but because if they didn't, they would be
ridiculed themselves.  

My question is... are ALL Slytherins pure bloods?

> 2. With that in mind, what do you feel should happen
> to the Death 
> Eater's children when/if Voldemort is defeated? 

I think they should be allowed to remain at Hogwarts. 
Hopefully, some other wizarding families will help
take them in during the holidays.  

> 3. Do any of you think that Malfoy is even going to
> be in Hogwarts 
> in the Sixth book, or is he going to join the
> Death-Eaters?

Malfoy is too young to join the Death-Eaters.  They
are performing powerful spells that he wouldn't be
able to perform or learn yet.  Plus, he is too
immature and self-centered.  The only reason he agrees
with the Death Eaters is because his father is one. 
He repeats what he has been told from his father.  He
probably can't even explain WHY he thinks pure blood
families are better than others, let alone fight to
kill them.
Plus, I think Malfoy is somewhat of a coward.  If he
really had to fight a serious battle, he would be
scared out of his wits!  So, yes, I think he will
still be at Hogwarts to give HP a hard time.

> 4. In the sixth Book, did anyone notice how Snape
> called Malfoy by 
> his first name? Do you think it's significant that
> it's the only 
> time (that I can think of) that Snape has called a
> student by their 
> first name?

I never even picked up on that!  I really don't know,
except that it is clearly stated that Malfoy is one of
Snape's favorite students.  Now, I like Snape.  I
think he is a bitter and resentful man, but has his
morals in order.  He might even end up being a
mentor/father figure to Malfoy if his father is taken
out of the picture if LV is deveated.
 
> 5. Lastly, for now at least, did you notice that
> Draco referred to 
> his father as "dad" in the sixth book? Is his
> relationship close to 
> his father, or does he fear him?

Both.  As boys do, I think his father is a role model
to him.  At same time, I think his father has
instilled in him a sense of fear of authority.  (Ever
noticed when a teacher is near Malfoy dares not to act
up around them?)  And, we don't know about Malfoy's
family life.  Who knows what kind of punishments his
father gave him for acting up as a child.  Obviously,
the home wasn't a loving and nuturing one like the
Weasleys'.




From two_flower2 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  4 18:08:24 2004
From: two_flower2 at yahoo.com (two_flower2)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 18:08:24 -0000
Subject: Chat News Snape vamp yet again
Message-ID: <c27rao+vaa2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92059

*delurks*

Now, I always thought Snape HAD to do something with vampires, 
whatever it was, because of so many clues.  Now JKR says he has 
nothing to do with them whatsoever.  So what do the persistent clues 
mean in THIS case?

Any thoughts?

Pippin?

Two2, a perplexed lurker




From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  4 16:39:15 2004
From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 08:39:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Kreacher & The Prophecy (was Re: Kreacher)
In-Reply-To: <c271jk+r614@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040304163915.35154.qmail@web41811.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92060



Kneasy wrote:With his ingrained tendency to rashness and intolerance of inactivity,
it seems inevitable that he would rush off on the rescue mission to the
Ministry. DD states that our decisions define us; when was the last
time Sirius made a thoughtful decision? It  all seems to be spur of the
moment  stuff, with no thought for the consequences. This is bloody
dangerous, and not just for Sirius. Consider, who at Hogwarts or the 
wider WW knew of the current association between Harry and Sirius
before he decided to accompany Harry to the station? Just the  Trio
and a few members of the Order. Afterwards, all the wrong people 
knew and it gave them an edge, a lever to shift Harry out of safety
into a dangerous situation. Kreachur's presumed revelations to other
members of the family told the DEs where Sirius was hiding and what
he was up to with the  Order, but it was Sirius who broadcast the 
connection between himself and Harry.


My (Melanie) Reply:

Sirius did not just go the ministry on any "rescue" mission.  He went because his son (yes for all practical purposes I will refer to him as Sirus' son) was there and in mortal danger!  And Sirius was the reason he was there.  Yes, it was rash, but I maintain that any parent would go to rescue their child if he was in danger.  Sirius never went to any other mission at the MOM, just this one.  I personally think it was wrong of anyone to assume that Sirius would not go and save his Godson.  But that's just my take on the situation.  

 

~Melanie

 

 

 


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search - Find what you?re looking for faster.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





From elfundeb at comcast.net  Thu Mar  4 18:09:47 2004
From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb2)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 18:09:47 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat:  Weasley Ages
In-Reply-To: <c27l5v+hn8g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c27rdb+748b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92061

Sam:

> > Maybe he did leave early.  Do you have to come back for 6th and 
7th 
> > years? Not everyone needs to get there Newts.  Since the twins 
were 
> > able to leave early maybe Charlie did too.

Meri:

> Also we assume that the Quidditch house cup was played every year 
> that Charlie was at shcool. I can't imagine that Hogwarts just 
> started to get exciting/dangerous upon Harry's arrival. Perhaps 
there 
> were tournament cancellations before Charlie's graduation due to, 
> well, any number of things. Or else he got a real good dragon 
related 
> internship that he couldn't pass up. 

I don't think it makes sense for Charlie to have left early.  For one 
thing, based on what we learned about career qualifications in OOP, I 
think it's quite unlikely that Charlie could have qualified for his 
job with the dragons had he not earned his Newts in Care of Magical 
Creatures.  The twins, on the other hand, left to become 
entrepreneurs, and didn't need credentials.

The possibility that the Quidditch Cup wasn't played Charlie's last 
year seems more appealing to me, except that it doesn't explain why 
Charlie wasn't at Hogwarts in PS/SS, and it means that Gryffindor 
hadn't won the Cup since a time before Charlie left.

Debbie
polishing up her application to assist JKR in revising the series to 
eliminate Flints such as this




From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  4 17:02:42 2004
From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 09:02:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chat response  (motorbike/Ginny's and Molly's names)
In-Reply-To: <c27im1+nu36@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040304170242.62617.qmail@web41809.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92062

Jen wrote: Or somehow the bike got sent to Arthur's department 
for 'disposal' so he just took it home to tinker with it. I like 
this theory better than the Forbidden Forest because it fits in so 
well with Arthur's character. Seems strange none of the kids would 
have found it by now,though, 15+ years later.

My (Melanie) Reply:
 
No, no no!  I think that Hagrid being extremely upset as he was ended up sending the bike to the Black estate *aka Sirus' Gringrott's vault* in spite because he wouldn't want to keep the Bike of a convicted murderer.  That sounds like something Hagrid would do.  Thus, I think whoever inherits the vault, my guess is on Harry since he obviously is allowed to make withdrawls.  (*Sirius said that he used Harry's name to get money out of his Vault).  Thus, I can see the bike being used to help rescue Harry from the Dursley's.  
 
Not really sure how that would work but that's my theory.
 
~Melanie





From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  4 17:11:16 2004
From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 09:11:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] My fav Q and A from todays chat w/ JKR
In-Reply-To: <c27jj8+1tu5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040304171116.22280.qmail@web41812.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92063

Maneelyelfh wrote:
My theory here is that Harry and LV are related. Also Harry is 
related to Slyterin and Grffindor. Griffindor via james, and (nice 
little twist) Slytherin via Lily.  Green eyes, Slytherin house colors 
green and silver. Also may be the reason why Lv did not want to kill 
Lily as they are related and she is related to Slytherin!! In COS, 
Harry flet that Tom Riddle was vaguely familiar......

 
My (Melanie) reply:  I'm not denying there is possibility that Lily and Voldemort are related, I always thought that myself.  However, if that is the case it's not because of the eyes.  If Tom Riddle had green eyes, that would have been brought out I am sure.  But it wasn't..I am not sure what eyes he had but you know.  
 
I think the green eyes are a symbol of something else though.  I think it's merely just a symbolic message that there is a of Lily in Harry too, not just James.  
 
~Melanie, who is very green eyed and hates the idea of the color being linked to the house of Slytherin.  It's just an eye color.  And besides that, Red hair and green eyes go together.  





From weirdsister06 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  4 17:16:11 2004
From: weirdsister06 at yahoo.com (weirdsister06)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 17:16:11 -0000
Subject: JKR chat:  Sirius
Message-ID: <c27o8r+5012@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92064

Did Sirius have to die because he will help Harry defeat Voldemort 
in the end?  Much as Lily and James and Cedric and Bertha and the 
old muggle helped Harry when he was dueling with Voldemort?







From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  4 17:27:57 2004
From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 09:27:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Newbie and some questions about Slytherins
In-Reply-To: <c27bas+ofo4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040304172757.38294.qmail@web41813.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92065

Susan wrote:
 
It's not 
EASY, but choosing to listen & think as an individual is part of what 
education is all about.  The sorting hat raises this issue when it 
talks about the need to unite.  CHOOSING to raise a glass to Cedric 
or Harry is another example.  It's a harder choice for Slytherins, we 
assume, because of the pressures & stereotypes.  But even some 
Gryffindors [Seamus, anyone?] have to think long & hard about what & 
whom they believe in.

 

My (Mela) Reply:  I love that part. One of things that makes me love Sirius more than ever before is that he is the perfect example of a character who defied tradition and stereotypes he grew up with and went about his own way.  I think that speaks volumes more about the character of Sirius Black than any silly pensieve  scene does.

~Melanie






From barbienut75 at earthlink.net  Thu Mar  4 07:21:34 2004
From: barbienut75 at earthlink.net (Jennifer Massey)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 01:21:34 -0600
Subject: What would you think if.....
References: <1078371864.4796.93128.m19@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <01cb01c401b9$5367b6e0$6601a8c0@jennifer>

No: HPFGUIDX 92066

What would you "feel" if JKR killed Harry?

My cousin said to me the other day, she didn't feel the need to read the HP
book becasue, they will end like they should, good will win over evil. What
if JKR didn't end it like she should, and shocked the whole world?

Would you be pissed? I've not been reading these books for very
long....probably not even 6 months...but by the time the 7th book gets out
I'm sure I will be attatched to Harry, I am already, and it would kill me if
he died. I probably would never read another JKR book again.
What about you?




From jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com  Thu Mar  4 18:12:28 2004
From: jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com (mooseming)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 18:12:28 -0000
Subject: Chat News Snape vamp yet again
In-Reply-To: <c27rao+vaa2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c27ric+gpi1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92067

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "two_flower2" <two_flower2 at y...>
wrote:
> *delurks*
> 
> Now, I always thought Snape HAD to do something with vampires, 
> whatever it was, because of so many clues.  Now JKR says he has 
> nothing to do with them whatsoever.  So what do the persistent clues 
> mean in THIS case?
> 
> Any thoughts?
> 
> Pippin?
> 
> Two2, a perplexed lurker

Could you summarise the clues for me, I missed those.
jo




From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  4 17:56:11 2004
From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 17:56:11 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat- Sirius Black
In-Reply-To: <c27b5g+nai2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c27qjr+kknq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92068

Lauren says:
> Ok we know Sirius' body probabily won't return but,... his 
> reflection giving advice through the mirror? Maybe his spirit can't 
> rest till he see things through.
> 
> So were not totally rid of him. At the end of the second book after 
> advising Harry through the defeat of Voldemort, I suggest Sirius can 
> finally rest.

Antosha: 
But we have no indication that he had the mirror WITH HIM when he went through! If he 
did, then why didn't he answer it when Harry called him at the the end of OotP??? I think 
the whole point of that last section--which was really heartrending--was to establish that, 
even in the wizard world, death is death: a one-way door. I think Luna is a real key to the 
whole issue, though exactly how I'm not sure. I've got to believe we get some sort of peak 
behind that veil in book six or seven, but I'd bet my last sickle it won't be through the 
mirror.

I'm expecting someone at Grimauld (Grim Old) 
Place to find the mate to the mirror--probably in Sirius's room, and for the (repaired) pair 
to become a new form of communication between Harry and some other character(s).

Of course, I could be wrong....

Antosha, who wonders why JKR would have cried when she killed Sirius off if she was only 
going to bring him back, even through a back door.... 






From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  4 18:07:32 2004
From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 18:07:32 -0000
Subject: My fav Q and A from todays chat w/ JKR
In-Reply-To: <c27n3u+frg6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c27r94+ijua@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92069

> "maneelyfh" <maneelyfh at y...> wrote:
> miggs: Is there going to be a new minister of magic in the next books?
> JK Rowling replies -> Yes. Ha! Finally, a concrete bit of 
> information, I hear you cry!
> 
> hope this means Arthur is getting his due.  Also, hope it indicates 
> that Fudge is in fact a DE as I have theorized!
> ----------------
> ARYA NOW:  Don't you think someone like Amelia Bones is much more 
> likely to make the jump to MoM?  I mean Arthur is only the head of 
> very small (two-man) department...


Antosha: 
Perhaps. But Arthur is one of Dumbledore's strongest allies in the MoM, and with DD back 
in a position to wield power--political, not just magical--he might be able to make this 
happen. There is (as has been pointed out) that lovely unintentional prophesy by Ronald 
Bilius (hee!) Weasley about Griffyndor's Quidditch team being as likely to win the cup as his 
dad has of becoming Minister of Magic (that's in OotP, but I can't remember which 
chapter...).  Bet it doesn't happen in book six though!

I wonder, could Ron turn out, after all of the silliness in Trelawney's class, to be a true 
Seer????

> -------------
> "maneelyfh" <maneelyfh at y...> wrote:
> Jami: Is Harry related to Godric Gryffindor?
> JK Rowling replies -> People are always wondering who Harry might be 
> related to. Maybe he is ;)
>  
> My theory here is that Harry and LV are related. Also Harry is 
> related to Slyterin and Grffindor. Griffindor via james, and (nice 
> little twist) Slytherin via Lily.  Green eyes, Slytherin house colors 
> green and silver. Also may be the reason why Lv did not want to kill 
> Lily as they are related and she is related to Slytherin!! In COS, 
> Harry flet that Tom Riddle was vaguely familiar......
> --------------
> ARY NOW:  
> Ah, this is also a FAVORITE question as I ASKED IT!!  : )  I haven't 
> stopped grinning since!!  YAY!  Okay, settling down now...I think it 
> means he does trace his blood back to Godric and that, as many have 
> said, Voldemort traces his roots of the 'Dark Lord' back to SLytherin 
> as well as his blood, that Harry's connection to Godric is linked to 
> part of his Power as The One.  It's all about Gryffindor versus 
> Slytherin to me...

Antosha:
I disagree. Not only does that become a really simplistic morality play, when the tendency 
of the books has been in precisely the opposite direction, but it contradicts the spirit of 
the Sorting Hat's song in OotP. If this whole thing has just been about G=good and S=evil, 
then :-p I'll reread the series the way I do the Narnia books, and just ignore the last 
volume! There have been too many clues about Harry's own links to Slytherin to make the 
resolution of the Harry/LV conflict that simple....





From maneelyfh at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  4 18:20:44 2004
From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 18:20:44 -0000
Subject: My fav Q and A from todays chat w/ JKR
In-Reply-To: <20040304171116.22280.qmail@web41812.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c27s1s+se11@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92070

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Miss Melanie 
<ms_melanie1999 at y...> wrote:
> Maneelyelfh wrote:
> My theory here is that Harry and LV are related. Also Harry is 
> related to Slyterin and Grffindor. Griffindor via james, and (nice 
> little twist) Slytherin via Lily.  Green eyes, Slytherin house 
colors 
> green and silver. Also may be the reason why Lv did not want to 
kill 
> Lily as they are related and she is related to Slytherin!! In COS, 
> Harry flet that Tom Riddle was vaguely familiar......
> 
>  
> My (Melanie) reply:  I'm not denying there is possibility that Lily 
and Voldemort are related, I always thought that myself.  However, if 
that is the case it's not because of the eyes.  If Tom Riddle had 
green eyes, that would have been brought out I am sure.  But it 
wasn't..I am not sure what eyes he had but you know.  
>  

If thats the case then why did JKR give the no comment answer to the 
eye color question? Plus in HP series, there are repeated references 
to the Harry's eye's and eye color.
Fran




From csalgado at rcn.com  Thu Mar  4 14:12:40 2004
From: csalgado at rcn.com (oldone7777)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 14:12:40 -0000
Subject: JKR chat
In-Reply-To: <20040304131536.ECOD1634.out006.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <c27dgo+kett@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92071

Anne wrote:
> **feeling vindicated about the whole Vampy Snape thing**

oldone:
I'm glad Snape isn't a vampire and the whole theroy shot 
down. Thank you JKR!

> 1) The 'Vampire' has either 
> a) yet to show it's toothy face, or 
> b) is either Voldemort, or the dementors as a race--since both has 
> displayed actual characteristic vampiric tendencies in the guise of 
> feeding off other creatures in some way, shape or form. 
> Disappointing for those of us wanting to see a 'traditional' vamp, 
> but oh well...

I agree Dementors could be the "vampire" of the series. The suck
(feed) on the soul, and take it from you leaving you as "one of the 
undead". Just as traditional Vampires suck(feed) on blood, making 
one very weak or turning you to the "undead" .

Voldemort and the DE's can too be argued as vampires. They suck
(feed) on the fears and mistrusts of the wizarding society on a 
whole. They take a bit of life from wizards by each act of terror, 
manipulation, and coercion. the whole process broke down and drains 
the society (like a vampire)the last time around. They are trying to 
do it again.

That's plenty of Vampires in my opinion,
Thank you.
oldone




From armadillof at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  4 04:46:36 2004
From: armadillof at yahoo.com (armadillof)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 04:46:36 -0000
Subject: Voldemort's Wand
In-Reply-To: <c25mt8+gebu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c26cbc+i4l8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92072

LizVega wrote:
> The reason I believe there was someone else there is twofold:
> 1. If no one else was there, how did LV get his wand back in GOF?

Hey again,

Well, there's nothing saying Voldemort physically turned to 
rubble after the attack.  He may have been extremely weakened but 
regular human beings have done physically astounding things too 
based on their physical limitations and capabilities.  I thought he 
fled straight out.

AF




From maneelyfh at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  4 18:33:34 2004
From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 18:33:34 -0000
Subject: My fav Q and A from todays chat w/ JKR
In-Reply-To: <c27r94+ijua@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c27spu+c5s2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92073

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "antoshachekhonte" 
<antoshachekhonte at y...> wrote:
> > "maneelyfh" <maneelyfh at y...> wrote:
> > miggs: Is there going to be a new minister of magic in the next 
books?
> > JK Rowling replies -> Yes. Ha! Finally, a concrete bit of 
> > information, I hear you cry!
> > 
> > hope this means Arthur is getting his due.  Also, hope it 
indicates 
> > that Fudge is in fact a DE as I have theorized!
> > ----------------
> > ARYA NOW:  Don't you think someone like Amelia Bones is much more 
> > likely to make the jump to MoM?  I mean Arthur is only the head 
of 
> > very small (two-man) department...
> 
> 
> Antosha: 
> Perhaps. But Arthur is one of Dumbledore's strongest allies in the 
MoM, and with DD back 
> in a position to wield power--political, not just magical--he might 
be able to make this 
> happen. There is (as has been pointed out) that lovely 
unintentional prophesy by Ronald 
> Bilius (hee!) Weasley about Griffyndor's Quidditch team being as 
likely to win the cup as his 
> dad has of becoming Minister of Magic (that's in OotP, but I can't 
remember which 
> chapter...).  Bet it doesn't happen in book six though!
> 
> I wonder, could Ron turn out, after all of the silliness in 
Trelawney's class, to be a true 
> Seer????
> 
> > -------------
> > "maneelyfh" <maneelyfh at y...> wrote:
> > Jami: Is Harry related to Godric Gryffindor?
> > JK Rowling replies -> People are always wondering who Harry might 
be 
> > related to. Maybe he is ;)
> >  
> > My theory here is that Harry and LV are related. Also Harry is 
> > related to Slyterin and Grffindor. Griffindor via james, and 
(nice 
> > little twist) Slytherin via Lily.  Green eyes, Slytherin house 
colors 
> > green and silver. Also may be the reason why Lv did not want to 
kill 
> > Lily as they are related and she is related to Slytherin!! In 
COS, 
> > Harry flet that Tom Riddle was vaguely familiar......
> > --------------
> > ARY NOW:  
> > Ah, this is also a FAVORITE question as I ASKED IT!!  : )  I 
haven't 
> > stopped grinning since!!  YAY!  Okay, settling down now...I think 
it 
> > means he does trace his blood back to Godric and that, as many 
have 
> > said, Voldemort traces his roots of the 'Dark Lord' back to 
SLytherin 
> > as well as his blood, that Harry's connection to Godric is linked 
to 
> > part of his Power as The One.  It's all about Gryffindor versus 
> > Slytherin to me...
> 
> Antosha:
> I disagree. Not only does that become a really simplistic morality 
play, when the tendency 
> of the books has been in precisely the opposite direction, but it 
contradicts the spirit of 
> the Sorting Hat's song in OotP. If this whole thing has just been 
about G=good and S=evil, 
> then :-p I'll reread the series the way I do the Narnia books, and 
just ignore the last 
> volume! There have been too many clues about Harry's own links to 
Slytherin to make the 
> resolution of the Harry/LV conflict that simple....

Fran:
But that would explain why the sorting had difficulty placing Harry. 
Sometimes simple is the easiest thing to overlook. The LV/Harry 
conflict is about an evil wizard and the boy who was born that will 
defeat him. If Harrry was not the one or chose to live a life that 
had his own best interest at heart ala Lucious Malfoy, then LV would 
not bother him; there would be no conflict.  Also whether or not it 
was intended, there is a good vs evil message in the books.






From keltobin at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  4 18:39:17 2004
From: keltobin at yahoo.com (Kelly)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 18:39:17 -0000
Subject: What would you think if.....
In-Reply-To: <01cb01c401b9$5367b6e0$6601a8c0@jennifer>
Message-ID: <c27t4l+g33h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92074

Jennifer Massey"wrote:
<snip>  good will win over evil. What
> if JKR didn't end it like she should, and shocked the whole world?
<snip>

Harry's death would not automatically mean that evil would "win."  
Plenty of heroes sacrifice themselves, or an aspect of themselves 
(like innocence), to twart evil.  This would fit perfectly with an 
expected ending in this genre. 

Kelly




From maneelyfh at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  4 18:41:34 2004
From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 18:41:34 -0000
Subject: What would you think if.....
In-Reply-To: <01cb01c401b9$5367b6e0$6601a8c0@jennifer>
Message-ID: <c27t8u+sdf2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92075

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jennifer Massey" 
<barbienut75 at e...> wrote:
> What would you "feel" if JKR killed Harry?
> 
> My cousin said to me the other day, she didn't feel the need to 
read the HP
> book becasue, they will end like they should, good will win over 
evil. What
> if JKR didn't end it like she should, and shocked the whole world?
> 
> Would you be pissed? I've not been reading these books for very
> long....probably not even 6 months...but by the time the 7th book 
gets out
> I'm sure I will be attatched to Harry, I am already, and it would 
kill me if
> he died. I probably would never read another JKR book again.
> What about you?

The important thing to me is that Harry defeats LV.  In my heart I 
want him to live happily ever after, but then again DD states that 
death is just another great adventure and Harry would be reunited 
with his family!

Also, yes there are plenty of good vs evil plots out there but the 
story is not hte same. Plus it is great fun to find clue's in the 
books, and theorizing over what they may bring. Also re-reading the 
books you find hints of things that are to come such as when Harry is 
buying his wand, Olivander states that his fathers wand was great for 
transfigurations and James turned out be an animagi. 
Fran




From editor at texas.net  Thu Mar  4 18:41:25 2004
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 18:41:25 -0000
Subject: Chat News Snape vamp yet again
In-Reply-To: <c27ric+gpi1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c27t8l+5m82@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92076

Jo, wanting to know about Snape NOT being a vampire:

> Could you summarise the clues for me, I missed those.

Message 92044, "He is NOT, He is NOT" has the relevant quote. And 
some gloating.

~Amanda, still absurdly delighted




From vecseytj at tampabay.rr.com  Thu Mar  4 18:47:30 2004
From: vecseytj at tampabay.rr.com (vecseytj)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 18:47:30 -0000
Subject: Disliked Uncle Vernon (was: More on the chat=
In-Reply-To: <c27mj2+7b4t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c27tk2+u019@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92077

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hickengruendler"
<hickengruendler at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" 
> <susiequsie23 at s...> wrote:
>  
> > 
> > Also,
> > LRGS School: Which character do you most dislike ? 
> > JK Rowling replies -> Probably Uncle Vernon
> > 
> > Did this surprise anyone else?  He's despicable, yes, but MOST 
> > disliked by JKR?
> > 
> 
> Yes, I was a bit surprised, too. If you consider some other suspects, 
> Voldemort, Bellatrix, the Malfoys, Umbridge, Wormtail..., it really 
> is a bit surprising, that Uncle Vernon is her most disliked 
> character. Maybe she just wrote a scene, in which he is particularly 
> nasty, and therefore just had him in his minds. Or Vernon will do 
> some even more awful things in the future. But personally, this 
> answer also made me a bit hopeful. As characters, I like both, Dudley 
> and Petunia, and hope that at the end of the series, they will be 
> portrayed in a more positive light (OotP with a more mysterious 
> Petunia and a broken down and pitiful Dudley hopefully started the 
> trend). And if Vernon is her most disliked character, and not "the 
> Dursleys", than there might be hope for the other two.
> 
> Hickengruendler

Hello,

JRK's reply to this question struck me as simple but true.  Vernon has
abused his power/control over Harry to a frighting degree.  Vernon
Dursley had/has a great deal of power over Harry's early years.  He is
Harry's (was) father figure.  He mentaly and physically abused Harry
for 11 years... with uninterupted spite.  He tells Harry in so many
ways that he wished Harry had never been born.  Vernon has done more
damage to Harry than one can dream of.  He has locked him up, STARVED
him, hit him, used him as a slave, (working in yard, house, kitchen..
on and on) demeaned his every word ... Harry's has said in EVERY book
that "don't worry they'll just be mad I had all of those chances to
DIE and didn't."  This is not a joke Harry really means these words.  

I don't like Vernon either.  

just my  2 knuts. Tj




From dk59us at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  4 18:34:20 2004
From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 18:34:20 -0000
Subject: Chat News Snape vamp yet again
In-Reply-To: <c27rao+vaa2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c27src+m35k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92078

Two2 wrote:
 Now, I always thought Snape HAD to do something with vampires, 
 whatever it was, because of so many clues.  Now JKR says he has 
 nothing to do with them whatsoever.  

Eustace_Scrubb adds:

Well the exchange today went like this:
 Megan: Is there a link between Snape and vampires?
 JK Rowling replies -> Erm... I don't think so.

She didn't say he _wasn't_ a vampire himself.  In fact the "Erm"
preceding her answer may signify that she's figuring out a truthful
answer to the question--as asked--without giving away the store. 
Snape's  not linked to any vampires, but he could be one.  Makes him
even more interesting...a solitary, lonely vampire? <VBG>

Eustace_Scrubb
who really doesn't think Snape _is_ a vampire but hopes the proponents
don't throw in the towel until the last "erm" is "ermed."





From keltobin at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  4 19:05:13 2004
From: keltobin at yahoo.com (Kelly)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 19:05:13 -0000
Subject: JKR chat:  Sirius
In-Reply-To: <c27o8r+5012@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c27ul9+uvn7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92079

<weirdsister06 wrote:

> Did Sirius have to die because he will help Harry defeat Voldemort 
> in the end?  Much as Lily and James and Cedric and Bertha and the 
> old muggle helped Harry when he was dueling with Voldemort?

I've been thinking on this quite a bit.  Why would Sirius have "had" 
to die:

1.  To make Harry think before he acts and not be so impulsive?  
Possibly.  Harry has learned many things from the death of Sirius and 
the events at the end of OoTP.  He has learned not to believe 
everything he "sees."  He has learned not to rush headlong into 
battle, but to think and gather forces first.  

2.  Harry has learned that just because he does not like someone, 
doesn't mean he can't trust them.  If he had thought of Snape as an 
ally, things could have gone very differently at the end of OoTP.

3.  It is possible that Sirius, in some form, will come and help 
Harry.  I have an "it's been done" feeling about this so I'm not to 
crazy about this idea.

4.  The feeling Harry has that expells Voldemort during the fight in 
the MoM has to do with Sirius and the death.  Perhaps Harry will 
learn to hone this and use it to fight Voldemort.

5.  In it's simplest form, Sirius' death was an end of innocence for 
Harry.  Considering a war is at hand, this is an unfortunate but 
necessary thing for Harry to act effectively in the battles to come.

Just a few thoughts on this matter.

Cheers,
Kelly




From vecseytj at tampabay.rr.com  Thu Mar  4 19:10:02 2004
From: vecseytj at tampabay.rr.com (vecseytj)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 19:10:02 -0000
Subject: chat question: will harry and Hermione *will* be together?
Message-ID: <c27uua+us5k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92080



I couldn't make heads nor tail of this question...

Will Harry and Hermione *will* be together? *sight*

JRK:  lol not saying but you have enough clues by now surely?!



By JRK's reply I thougt at first she is asking if H/H are an item. 
Then I thought is she asking if H/H are going to say friends?  And
then I thought  What is the second *will* supposed to say? (is it
*still* or *ever* or is the second *will* supposed to be there at all?)

I know a silly question but, I wanted to ask greater minds than my own.

Thanks Tj




From joj at rochester.rr.com  Thu Mar  4 19:13:49 2004
From: joj at rochester.rr.com (coolbeans3131)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 19:13:49 -0000
Subject: More on the chat
In-Reply-To: <c27h33+sh1r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c27v5d+oucs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92081

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" 
<susiequsie23 at s...> wrote:
 
> Also,
> LRGS School: Which character do you most dislike ? 
> JK Rowling replies -> Probably Uncle Vernon
> 
> Did this surprise anyone else?  He's despicable, yes, but MOST 
> disliked by JKR?

Joj: 
That surprised me, because I don't think he's done anything so 
despicable yet.  YET!  I'm thinking were going to see Vernon sink to 
some new lows in the next books.  If there's a chance that Petunia or 
Dudley are more than what they seem, how far would Vernon go to cover 
it up, or to make it go away?  JK also said something about Dudley's 
vision from the Dementors.  I think this is going to be big.  (She 
also said this would be the shortest holiday at Privit Dr. so far.  
That doesn't necessarily mean the most uneventful, however).

Joj




From nkafkafi at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  4 19:38:18 2004
From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 19:38:18 -0000
Subject: JKR chat:  Sirius
In-Reply-To: <c27ul9+uvn7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c280ja+98ag@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92082

> <weirdsister06 wrote:
> 
> > Did Sirius have to die because he will help Harry defeat 
Voldemort 
> > in the end?  Much as Lily and James and Cedric and Bertha and the 
> > old muggle helped Harry when he was dueling with Voldemort?

Kelly wrote:
> 
> I've been thinking on this quite a bit.  Why would Sirius 
have "had" 
> to die:
> 
> 1.  To make Harry think before he acts and not be so impulsive?  
> Possibly.  Harry has learned many things from the death of Sirius 
and 
> the events at the end of OoTP.  He has learned not to believe 
> everything he "sees."  He has learned not to rush headlong into 
> battle, but to think and gather forces first.  
> 
> <snip>
> 3.  It is possible that Sirius, in some form, will come and help 
> Harry.  I have an "it's been done" feeling about this so I'm not to 
> crazy about this idea.
> 
> 4.  The feeling Harry has that expells Voldemort during the fight 
in 
> the MoM has to do with Sirius and the death.  Perhaps Harry will 
> learn to hone this and use it to fight Voldemort.

Neri:
Several days ago I suggested, half siriusly, that Harry will vanquish 
LV with a mental patronus made of the power that LV knows not 
(whatever it is), and that this mental patronus will have the shape 
of a large dog. This will be a way for Sirius to help Harry without 
actually coming back to life (very much as James did). But then, what 
about the two-way mirror? Would it also play in this, or does it have 
another role?

Neri




From jferer at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  4 19:48:24 2004
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 19:48:24 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Harry and Hermione together per JKR chat?
In-Reply-To: <c27uua+us5k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c28168+ui59@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92083

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vecseytj" <vecseytj at t...> wrote:
TJ:I couldn't make heads nor tail of this question...

"Will Harry and Hermione *will* be together? *sight*"
 
JRK:  lol not saying but you have enough clues by now surely?!
 
TJ:By JRK's reply I thougt at first she is asking if H/H are an item. 

Jim (me): That's the way I take it, too.

"Then I thought is she asking if H/H are going to say friends?"

No, the person was asking JKR if Harry and Hermione will be a couple,
I'm sure.  Who would ask if they're not going to be friends?  Why
would anyone doubt that much?

And then I thought  What is the second *will* supposed to say? (is it>
*still* or *ever* or is the second *will* supposed to be there at all?)

I'm sure it was just a pair of nervous flying fingers.  It doesn't
make sense otherwise.  Sometimes when I'm in chat you'd think
"Tarantellegra!" had been cast on my fingers.

My idea of "clues" is what we see of the developing personalities and
relationships, not in a tiny cue here and a tiny cue there. Seen in
the thematic way, I see Harry and Hermione growing closer and closer
all the time; Harry identifying with the way Hermione thinks and
hearing her voice inside; Hermione knowing just what Harry needs and
exerting herself for it with intelligence and even ruthlessness if
needed.  Now, a close friend would do the same, maybe, but I believe
this is more, or will be more as time goes on.

I've always believed that JKR's clues are under the skins of the
characters, not in chopping up tiny patches of text like tax lawyers.
   Skyscrapers built on the head of a pin don't generally stand up.




From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Thu Mar  4 19:50:47 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 19:50:47 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat  "The Crucial and Central Question"
In-Reply-To: <20040304151256.24117.qmail@web13507.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c281an+6dbj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92084

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ms Mo Me <fauntine_80 at y...> wrote:
> 
> I questioned the idea that Voldemort and Harry have
> the same powers when the Prophecy stated "He will mark
> him as his equal."  How about equal but opposite? 
> Harry always fights for what is good.  Voldemort
> always fights for what is evil.  Since Harry has shown
> signs of Voldemort's abilities, such as parseltounge,
> does HP also have all of his other abilities too?
> 

Not strictly true that Harry has earned his spurs as the
Knight in Shining Armour, or at least not yet.

Harry  has never strapped on his wand and gone looking
to rescue the maiden, right wrongs or fight evil. He fights
when he ends up in situation that he never foresaw and he
is already under attack. He fights to defend himself. Those
that attack him are not on the side of good but that matters
little to Harry; all he knows is there's somebody trying to
blow his head off.

So  far Harry has only *reacted*, he has never gone
looking for evil so that he can destroy it. IMO he is at the
crossroads - DD has told him the prophecy and now Harry
has to make his choice. What will he do? Will he become
DD's paladin or will he try and avoid his fate? The latter
option is likely to lead to tears all round. The Prophecy
only says that he will have the power, it doesn't say how
he will use it.

That, to paraphrase DD, is the choice that will define him.

Kneasy




From rredordead at aol.com  Thu Mar  4 19:56:22 2004
From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 19:56:22 -0000
Subject: Despicable Vernon. Was: More on the chat
In-Reply-To: <c27v5d+oucs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c281l6+gr77@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92085

> > Also Which character do you most dislike ? 
> > JK Rowling replies -> Probably Uncle Vernon
 
> Joj wrote: 
> That surprised me, because I don't think he's done anything so 
> despicable yet.  YET!  I'm thinking were going to see Vernon sink 
to some new lows in the next books.  If there's a chance that 
Petunia or Dudley are more than what they seem, how far would Vernon 
go to cover it up, or to make it go away?  JK also said something 
about Dudley's vision from the Dementors.  I think this is going to 
be big.  (She also said this would be the shortest holiday at Privit 
Dr. so far.  That doesn't necessarily mean the most uneventful, 
however).


Mandy here:
I disagree with you and have to agree with JKR.  Uncle Vernon is a 
despicable man who physically and verbally abused his nephew from 
the day baby Harry was left on his door step.  And is still 
continuing to try to get away with it, even though Vernon is now 
afraid of Harry.  Any opportunity that man got to hit, push, shove, 
degrade, insult and put-down Harry, he did it.  Made him live in a 
cupboard under the stairs, which may seem funny or even charming to 
us, but think about it in a real context.  Routinely shoved Harry 
against walls, grabs and holds Harry by his throat in the beginning 
OotP.  He constantly belittles him, insults him and laughs at him, 
while up holding his own son as a demigod. He tells the world that 
Harry goes to a school for criminally insane boys! Most of Harry's 
anger, resentment and violence in OotP come from his abuse as a 
child. He has no concept of love and affection, and didn't until he 
discovered the WW. Until Petunias `turn-around' in OotP, I doubted 
that Harry was ever, once hugged as a baby or child. Now I think he 
may have been, but only by her and in secret, when Vernon wasn't 
around.

Those to me are the actions of a despicable person.  More so than LV 
in a way because at least LV admits to, and is proud of being the 
Evil Overlord bastard that he is.  Uncle Vernon spends his life 
putting on the hypocritical face of respectability to the outside 
world.  Uncle Vernon is no better than Deloris Jane Umbridge; both 
get my vote for most despicable persons of the year.

Cheers, Mandy




From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Thu Mar  4 20:00:20 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 20:00:20 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat- Sirius Black
In-Reply-To: <c27qjr+kknq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c281sk+4mkc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92086

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "antoshachekhonte" <antoshachekhonte at y...> 
wrote:
> 
> I'm expecting someone at Grimauld (Grim Old) 
> Place to find the mate to the mirror--probably in Sirius's room, and
>  for the (repaired) pair > to become a new form of communication 
> between Harry and some other character(s).
> 
> Of course, I could be wrong....
> 
> Antosha, who wonders why JKR would have cried when she killed
> Sirius off if she was only > going to bring him back, even through
> a back door....


I  have to admit that I was surprised that there were hints about
the broken mirror in the chat. Not what I expected at all. Even so,
my favoured medium for seeing more of Sirius is the Pensieve.
That way we might get some answers to some critical questions.

Kneasy





From jferer at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  4 20:17:01 2004
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 20:17:01 -0000
Subject: My fav Q and A from todays chat w/ JKR
In-Reply-To: <c27s1s+se11@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c282rt+ma9q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92087

-- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Miss Melanie
<ms_melanie1999 at y...wrote:
Maneelyelfh wrote: "My theory here is that Harry and LV are related.
Also Harry is related to Slyterin and Grffindor. Griffindor via james,
and (nice little twist) Slytherin via Lily. Green eyes, Slytherin
house colors green and silver. Also may be the reason why Lv did not
want to kill Lily as they are related and she is related to
Slytherin!! In COS,Harry flet that Tom Riddle was vaguely familiar......"

The surprise would be if they aren't related.  We already heard from
Sirius that most old wizarding familes are related.  We don't know
much about Tom Riddle's mother, except that apparently she wasn't a
good judge of men.

The wizard community is a small one.  It's done a lot of intermarrying
over the centuries; it's been a thousand years since the Hogwarts Four
founded the school. You'd normally expect that darn near everyone in
it is related, many of them in several different ways at once. 
Imagine going to some place like Prince Edward Island or the Outer
Hebrides a hundred years ago.  If Voldemort's mother is from an old
wizard family, there's got to be relatives all over.

Jim Ferer




From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Thu Mar  4 20:26:08 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 20:26:08 -0000
Subject: JKR chat  (leading into Snape, naturally)
In-Reply-To: <c276j9+cn31@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c283d0+7phm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92088

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eloise_herisson" <eloiseherisson at a...> wrote:
> 
> But then, I wish the whole series were entitled, _Severus Snape and 
> the...._ with the content adjusted accordingly. ;-)
> 
> So what *would* Severus'worst fear, be, I wonder? He's brave, but 
> worst fears are not necessarily for personal safety. Could it be 
> something more personal? Could it be something like the death of 
> Harry himself, knowing that the future of the WW depends on him?
> JKR's reluctance to tell must mean that what he fears either has 
> direct significance for the story, or that it tells us so much about 
> his character/experiences that we can predict future action.
> 

As an unreformed Snape-aholic I can only agree with your irritation
that the series is centred on some callow youth and not the true
star and Man of Mystery Severus Snape.

What gives me hope (for one of my theories, anyway) is that JKR
said that Snape had told DD his story and that it was accepted.

This bolsters my confidence that Snape wants revenge, pure and
simple, and the cause is centred on his family - foully done to
death on Voldy's orders. His much criticized teaching habits
apart, I sense an honourable streak in Sevvy. A personal affront
will not go unavenged if he can help it. 

However, I have a feeling that his end will not be the one he wants;
Harry will be in there somewhere and our Sevvy may make the
supreme sacrifice.

Couldn't happen to a nicer fella.

Kneasy




From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu  Thu Mar  4 20:35:52 2004
From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 20:35:52 -0000
Subject: Harry strapping on his wand
In-Reply-To: <c281an+6dbj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c283v8+c4as@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92089

Kneasy wrote:
> Not strictly true that Harry has earned his spurs as the
> Knight in Shining Armour, or at least not yet.
> SNIP
> Harry  has never strapped on his wand and gone looking
> to rescue the maiden, right wrongs or fight evil. He fights
> when he ends up in situation that he never foresaw and he
> is already under attack. He fights to defend himself. 
SNIP
> So  far Harry has only *reacted*, he has never gone
> looking for evil so that he can destroy it. > ------
-------------------

What????  How can you say Harry has only defended himself and never 
GONE after something???  He went after the Sorcerer's Stone to battle 
who he thought would be Snape.  He went after the maiden as you say 
in going after Ginny to face the unknown monster of the Chamber of 
Secrets and he went flying off on Thestrals in a reckless and bold 
attempt to save Sirius from Voldemort himself.   

Harry definately GOES for it.  He's just as much a hero in his 
instincts to act as much as to react. 

Arya 




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  4 20:40:03 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 20:40:03 -0000
Subject: JKR chat
In-Reply-To: <c27bg2+79ok@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c28473+of2e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92090

"entropymail" wrote:
<snip>
2. Snape is not a vampire! Yay!
<snip>
 
4. Percy was acting of his own accord in OOP. Wow, that takes a lot of
air out of quite a few Percy theories.

and, finally,

5. A bit surprised about her answer regarding Harry's scar. I was sure
it was a rune!

Carol:
Re point 5: The scar may still be an eihwaz rune. She didn't
specifically answer that question. She only said that the shape wasn't
the most important thing about it--which still leaves room for
protective charm theories and as yet unknown properties for the scar.

For the record, I don't think that Harry's "life force" was switched
with Voldemort's--a protective charm wouldn't do that--but I do think
that some of Tom Riddle's or LV's powers and personality traits
(Parseltongue and anger?) got *added* to the gift for flying
(inherited from his father) and the personality traits we can
associate with his real self, JustHarry, as revealed in SS/PS before
he knows who he really is. He would have been an ordinary wizard child
like Ron or "half and half" Seamus if it weren't for the Godric's
Hollow encounter and (IMO) his mother's protective charm.

I also noted your points 2 and 4 about Snape and Percy, along with
MWPP all being in Gryffindor (so nice to be right on all three
counts!), a new minister of magic coming up (which leaves room for a
lot of speculation about Fudge), Charlie being only two years older
than Percy (huh?), The "two missing Gryffindor girls" (whom she forgot
to return to) indicating that there are really only ten students per
class in Harry's year, more on Snape's backstory coming up (yea!), and
the fansites getting the "one who won't return" correct--IMO has to be
Snape (as perceived by LV at the time of the graveyard scene) and the
coward has to be Karkaroff.

Carol, who wishes that her Mark Evans question had been answered, but
I guess it was too near the end of the 16,000 questions!




From belijako at online.no  Thu Mar  4 20:48:50 2004
From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 20:48:50 -0000
Subject: Chat response - link to script included
In-Reply-To: <c27r9p+4scg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c284ni+k06a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92091

David quoting Rowling:
The shape is not the most significant aspect 
of that scar, and that's all I'm going to say! 

Jo wrote:
rats there goes my the scar is a serpent theory!!!
what else could be significant, size? (I'm not even going there).
Colour, it is silver as I recall like a patronus charm perhaps?
Position, head rather than heart? Or does Tom carry its twin? What is
'the most significant aspect'?

Berit replies:

What if what Rowling meant by saying the shape is not the most 
significant aspect of the scar, is that what it DOES is more 
important; it's properties so to speak. We already know it opens up a 
connection between Voldemort and Harry. Maybe it has more uses that 
we don't know of yet.

Berit J
http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html




From nianya_c at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  4 20:50:42 2004
From: nianya_c at yahoo.com (nianya_c)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 20:50:42 -0000
Subject: JKR chat:  Sirius
In-Reply-To: <c280ja+98ag@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c284r2+ndja@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92092

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" <nkafkafi at y...> 
wrote:
weirdsister06 wrote:

Did Sirius have to die because he will help Harry defeat Voldemort 
in the end?  Much as Lily and James and Cedric and Bertha and the 
old muggle helped Harry when he was dueling with Voldemort?


Neri wrote: But then, what about the two-way mirror? Would it also 
play in this, or does it have another role?


Nia Replied:

Well she answered the question about whether we will see the mirror 
again with an Oooohhh....you have your answer. So I guess we will. 
Whether Harry can use it to communicate with Sirius is another can 
of worms, but I like to think he can. I'll bet Hermione fixes it for 
him.

Nia




From nkafkafi at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  4 20:58:46 2004
From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 20:58:46 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat  "The Crucial and Central Question"
In-Reply-To: <c281an+6dbj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c285a6+llf8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92093

Kneasy wrote:
> Not strictly true that Harry has earned his spurs as the
> Knight in Shining Armour, or at least not yet.
> 
> Harry  has never strapped on his wand and gone looking
> to rescue the maiden, right wrongs or fight evil. He fights
> when he ends up in situation that he never foresaw and he
> is already under attack. He fights to defend himself. Those
> that attack him are not on the side of good but that matters
> little to Harry; all he knows is there's somebody trying to
> blow his head off.
> 
> So  far Harry has only *reacted*, he has never gone
> looking for evil so that he can destroy it. IMO he is at the
> crossroads - DD has told him the prophecy and now Harry
> has to make his choice. What will he do? Will he become
> DD's paladin or will he try and avoid his fate? The latter
> option is likely to lead to tears all round. The Prophecy
> only says that he will have the power, it doesn't say how
> he will use it.
> 
> That, to paraphrase DD, is the choice that will define him.
> 

Neri:
I don't wholly agree with you there. Harry's decision in SS/PS to go 
and find the stone before LV does was a very conscious decision. He 
could have just ignored it as Ron and Hermione were inclined to. And 
in CoS he actively goes with Ron to the quest of saving Ginny's life, 
when he already knows about the basilisk part, at least. In fact
(since you have already raised the knight/paladin theme) I think the 
resolution of CoS is very chivalry/fairytale: The evil wizard puts an 
enchanted sleep on the innocent maiden and drags her to his secret 
fortress. Our knight (with his loyal companion) goes through riddles 
and dungeons to find the fortress, gets three presents (a bird, a hat 
and a sword) from the good magician, uses the sword to kill the 
guardian monster, and then finds where the heart of the evil wizard 
is hidden and destroys him. Practically the only element JKR left out 
is for our hero to wake the maiden with a kiss. Well, that would have 
been slightly overdoing it, as they are only 12 and 11 at the time.

Neri






From stevejjen at earthlink.net  Thu Mar  4 21:16:20 2004
From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 21:16:20 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat  "The Crucial and Central Question"
In-Reply-To: <20040304151256.24117.qmail@web13507.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c286b4+74fo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92094

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ms Mo Me <fauntine_80 at y...> 
wrote:
> I questioned the idea that Voldemort and Harry have
> the same powers when the Prophecy stated "He will mark
> him as his equal."  How about equal but opposite? 
> Harry always fights for what is good.  Voldemort
> always fights for what is evil.  Since Harry has shown
> signs of Voldemort's abilities, such as parseltounge,
> does HP also have all of his other abilities too?

Jen: Now I'm wondering if 'marking as his equal' refers to whatever 
Tom Riddle experienced at birth, i.e.:

mnich: Was Voldemort born evil? 
JK Rowling replies -> I don't believe that anybody was born evil. 
You will find out more about the circumstances of his birth in the 
next book. 

Did something happen to Tom Riddle at birth that interfered with his 
attempt to kill Harry, rather than just the protection on Harry by 
Lily, Dumbledore, etc.? JKR's reply says there was more to his birth 
than reported so far (all reported by Tom and therefore possibly 
inaccurate). Was in a magical occurence? Another insult from the 
Riddle family? 






From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Thu Mar  4 21:36:10 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 21:36:10 -0000
Subject: JKR chat
In-Reply-To: <c28473+of2e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c287ga+ogf7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92095

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" 
<justcarol67 at y...> wrote:
> and the fansites getting the "one who won't return" correct--IMO 
> has to be Snape (as perceived by LV at the time of the graveyard 
> scene) and the coward has to be Karkaroff.
> 

Susan:
Not necessarily, I don't think, Carol.  Why couldn't Snape be the 
coward who would be punished?  This could explain why there hasn't 
been a rift between Snape & the Malfoys.  If Lucius believed Snape 
was the betrayer who'd left forever, he'd sever ties with Snape, 
wouldn't he?  If, however, Lucius believed Snape was the coward 
who'd be dealt with, this could still fit.  Sevvie goes back to 
Voldy [he goes SOMEWHERE at the end of GoF], takes his punishment, 
and continues on pretending to be a DE while spying for DD.  The one 
who's left Voldy forever could then easily be Karkaroff or Bagman, 
if in fact Bagman is a DE.

Siriusly Snapey Susan







From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Thu Mar  4 21:36:43 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 21:36:43 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat
In-Reply-To: <c27jh7+cl9v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c287hb+ibhr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92096

karen.lyall at b...> wrote:
JKR Chat ref:
Luisa: How old are Charlie and Bill Weasley in relation to their 
other siblings? 
JK Rowling replies -> Oh dear, maths. Let me think. Bill is two 
years older than Charlie, who is two years older than Percy. 
Taking the above as 'fact' add the seven year rule from POA and 
The PS/SS quote of not having won "since Charlie left".

What theories have we got.
1) Charlie left school early?
2) Charlie left the team earlier than 7th year?
3) JKR can't remember what she's already written?

Let me know if there are any other possibilities, because she's 
now sent my timeline into mass confusion.

Karen
 
Maybe he did leave early.  Do you have to come back for 6th and 7th 
years? Not everyone needs to get there Newts.  Since the twins were 
able to leave early maybe Charlie did too.
 
Sam

Sue: It is also possible that Charlie is two years older but three 
years ahead in school. IOW, Charlie finished his 7th year just before 
his 18th birthday and Percy finished after he was 18.

This still doesn't explain the Quidditch Cup though.




From meriaugust at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  4 21:41:41 2004
From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 21:41:41 -0000
Subject: What would you think if.....
In-Reply-To: <c27t4l+g33h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c287ql+kcql@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92097

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelly" <keltobin at y...> wrote:
> Jennifer Massey"wrote:
> <snip>  good will win over evil. What
> > if JKR didn't end it like she should, and shocked the whole 
world?
> <snip>
> 
> Harry's death would not automatically mean that evil would "win."  
> Plenty of heroes sacrifice themselves, or an aspect of themselves 
> (like innocence), to twart evil.  This would fit perfectly with an 
> expected ending in this genre. 
> 
> Kelly

Harry sacrificing himself to the cause of good would be a great way 
to end the series. Then at the least we fans will be assured that he 
won't be suffering anymore, and is finally in for a little peace. 
However, I think that it would depend on how he dies. If it comes 
like Sirius' death did, short, nearly senseless and without major 
explanation, then I will be pretty upset. On the other hand, if he 
hangs on just long enough to say a beautiful good bye to Ron and 
Hermione and Hagrid, if he fades away seeing a light in front of 
him, and is welcomed into the WW version of an afterlife by his long 
lost mum, dad and godfather for an eternity of familial bonding, 
then I will probably have to be scraped off the ceiling I will be so 
happy. But that's just me. 
Meri - who didn't mean to get all New Agey, or to suggest that the 
WW has anything even remotely like a Christian Heaven




From amani at charter.net  Thu Mar  4 21:44:17 2004
From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 16:44:17 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] JK's latest revelations
References: <c2737h+8csq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00af01c40231$d8b96be0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92098

NZ Cate:
3) "Assuming he lives"...Ron has a future outside school ???!! 
(hoping she's teasing here!)

Taryn:
I wouldn't worry any more than any other character. She's done this same exact kind of thing in regards to Harry, just not in this particular chat. I think it's just one of several ways to keep people on their toes about not knowing how the story's going to end.

----------
Taryn : http://taryn.shirataki.net

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  4 21:46:12 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 21:46:12 -0000
Subject: Snape NOT a Vampire (Was  The Marauders are all Gryffindors)
In-Reply-To: <c27jli+tjp9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c28834+i03n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92099

Amanda:
> Oh, I'm sorry--I got so excited I posted my gloat before I saw your 
> hats there. [cannot contain self, does happy dance] See, Catherine, 
> the ingredients list *was* correct!
> 
Pippin:
> > But ESE!Lupin has escaped the barrage and even picked up  a 
> > little ballast.  At least we've been told there *is* more to be 
> > revealed about why Sirius died and that, YES! there's a trail of 
> > clues leading to the motorcycle.
> 
Amanda:
> Okay, that one was weird, can someone post what clues they have on 
> that? Like, anything? Coming from a L.O.O.N., I can't think of any 
> right offhand.

Carol:
Well, there's "I'll be takin' Sirius his bike back" in SS/PS chapter
one (quoted from memory). Hagrid intended (and probably attempted) to
return the motorcycle to Sirius before he knew about the incident with
Wormtail and the twelve dead Muggles (it probably hadn't happened
yet). So maybe it's at Sirius's other house, not 12 Grimmauld Place,
but his own house that he bought with the money he inherited from his
uncle. Just a thought.

Carol

P.S. Um, Amanda, which "ingredients list" are you referring to?




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Mar  4 21:46:43 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 21:46:43 -0000
Subject: JKR chat:  Sirius And the Motorcycle Clue
In-Reply-To: <c284r2+ndja@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c28843+s5ib@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92100


> weirdsister06 wrote:
> 
> Did Sirius have to die because he will help Harry defeat 
Voldemort  in the end?  Much as Lily and James and Cedric and 
Bertha and the  old muggle helped Harry when he was dueling 
with Voldemort?
> 
> 
> Neri wrote: But then, what about the two-way mirror? Would it 
also  play in this, or does it have another role?
> 
> 
> Nia Replied:
> 
> Well she answered the question about whether we will see the 
mirror  again with an Oooohhh....you have your answer. So I 
guess we will.  Whether Harry can use it to communicate with 
Sirius is another can  of worms, but I like to think he can. I'll bet 
Hermione fixes it for  him.<<

Hmmm, but following onto that and the motorcycle, which 
Amanda asked about in an earlier post...

Hagrid's story of meeting Sirius and Sirius's own account really 
don't match up very well.

Hagrid says that he arrived at the Potters and took  Harry from 
the ruins. Sirius showed up with the motorbike and tried to take 
Harry. Then he gave the bike to Hagrid saying he wouldn't need it 
anymore. (PoA ch 10) No mention of the Potters' bodies.

Sirius says he saw the house destroyed and the Potters' bodies.
(PoA ch 19) No mention of Harry, Hagrid or the motorcycle.

So, what if it wasn't Sirius that Hagrid met?  If Voldemort has a 
DE who can impersonate Sirius, and Pettigrew has one of those 
mirrors...well, that could get sticky, couldn't it.

Pippin






From amani at charter.net  Thu Mar  4 21:50:32 2004
From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 16:50:32 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] What would you think if.....
References: <1078371864.4796.93128.m19@yahoogroups.com> <01cb01c401b9$5367b6e0$6601a8c0@jennifer>
Message-ID: <00bf01c40232$b874cfe0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92101

Jennifer Massey:
What would you "feel" if JKR killed Harry?

Taryn:
I would cry terribly, but love it all the same. ;)

Jennifer Massey:
My cousin said to me the other day, she didn't feel the need to read the HP
book becasue, they will end like they should, good will win over evil. What
if JKR didn't end it like she should, and shocked the whole world?

Taryn:
Harry's death certainly wouldn't have to coincide with evil winning over good. The heroic sacrifice can be a very powerful device.

----------
Taryn : http://taryn.shirataki.net

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From amani at charter.net  Thu Mar  4 21:53:37 2004
From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 16:53:37 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort's Wand
References: <c26cbc+i4l8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00c901c40233$273e52c0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92102

LizVega wrote:
> The reason I believe there was someone else there is twofold:
> 1. If no one else was there, how did LV get his wand back in GOF?

AF:
Well, there's nothing saying Voldemort physically turned to 
rubble after the attack.  He may have been extremely weakened but 
regular human beings have done physically astounding things too 
based on their physical limitations and capabilities.  I thought he 
fled straight out.

Taryn:
"My curse was deflected by the woman's foolish sacrifice, and it rebounded upon myslef. Aaah...pain beyond pain, my friends; nothing could have prepared me for it. I was ripped from my body, I was less than spirit, less than the meanest ghost...but still, I was alive. <...> Nevertheless, I was as powerless as the weakest creature alive, and without the means to help myself...for I had no body, and every spell that might have helped me required the use of a wand..." [GoF American Paperback, pg. 653]

Straight from the horse's mouth.

----------
Taryn : http://taryn.shirataki.net

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gbannister10 at aol.com  Thu Mar  4 22:05:49 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 22:05:49 -0000
Subject: My fav Q and A from todays chat w/ JKR
In-Reply-To: <c27jj8+1tu5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2897t+4joh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92103


> Debbie: What will Ron's job be when he leaves school?
> JK Rowling replies -> Well, assuming he lives to leave school... 
I'm 
> not going to tell you :)
> 
> hmmmmmmm so will Ron die? I will definitely shed tears over this 
one 
> if it occurs

Geoff:
Yes but hasn't JKR made similar comments re Harry before now?




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  4 22:07:04 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 22:07:04 -0000
Subject: Chat: Not Born Evil...
In-Reply-To: <c27kmj+flnv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c289a8+eorr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92104

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" <stevejjen at e...> wrote:
> mnich: Was Voldemort born evil? 
> JK Rowling replies -> I don't believe that anybody was born evil. 
> You will find out more about the circumstances of his birth in the 
> next book. 
> 
> Jen: I found this the most compelling answer in the whole chat. So 
> there's more to LV's birth than previously mentioned, maybe 
> something Tom Riddle didn't know about? He had to piece his history 
> together from Muggle records which wouldn't include any unexplained 
> magic events. Very interesting.
> 
> That seems to support the idea that LV could still have a drop of 
> humanity in him from Tom Riddle, before he turned evil! I sense some 
> mercy/redemption coming our way via Harry.

Carol:
The fact that Voldemort chose baby Harry over baby Neville as the one
he identified with and considered the greater threat suggests that at
some level he was still Tom Riddle, as does his apparent compulsion to
"relive family history" near the end of GoF. Whether there's a chance
for redemption or not, the Voldemort who takes a bit of bone from his
Muggle father's grave to restore his own semihuman body is still on
some level the same person as the cold-blooded, hate-filled boy who
murdered his father and grandparents. Despite the many transformations
that have robbed him of his once-handsome features, the denial of his
Muggle ancestry by changing his name, and the near-immortality that
enables him to survive a back-fired AK, LV is still a much-corrupted
Tom Riddle with something human left in him (as DD sensed by
addressing him as Tom in the MoM). That human element (perhaps
mortality?) may have been reinforced by Harry's blood, Wormtail's
flesh, and Tom's dead father's bone.

Harry sensed the similarities between himself and young Tom as early
as CoS. I doubt that he sees them as clearly in the thing Tom Riddle
has become. And yet he sees LV's death at his hands as murder. I
wonder. . . .

Carol, who thinks that Tom Riddle became Lord Voldemort entirely
through his own wrong choices without any help from the spirit of
Salazar Slytherin




From maneelyfh at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  4 22:29:44 2004
From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 22:29:44 -0000
Subject: My fav Q and A from todays chat w/ JKR
In-Reply-To: <c2897t+4joh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c28ako+htqd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92105

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" 
<gbannister10 at a...> wrote:
> 
> > Debbie: What will Ron's job be when he leaves school?
> > JK Rowling replies -> Well, assuming he lives to leave school... 
> I'm 
> > not going to tell you :)
> > 
> > hmmmmmmm so will Ron die? I will definitely shed tears over this 
> one 
> > if it occurs
> 
> Geoff:
> Yes but hasn't JKR made similar comments re Harry before now?

Guess I forgot to add the answer about Ron's middle name being the 
same as the uncle who saw the Grim and died. As for similar comments 
about Harry, I guess I forgot! I guess that iw waht I like about this 
group is that everyone has different interpretations of what is to 
come and what certain clues mean.  I think that Sirius's animagi form 
being uncannily similar to a Grim was a clue as to his demise which 
others may disagree. But hey his animal form wa Grim-like and he 
died! 
Cheers!
Fran




From gbannister10 at aol.com  Thu Mar  4 22:32:50 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 22:32:50 -0000
Subject: More on the chat
In-Reply-To: <c27v5d+oucs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c28aqi+ea4h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92106

Geoff:
Having skimmed through some of the chat session (I shall be setling 
down in bed for a good read before bye-byes later on)I was led to 
wonder what sort of selection process was applied to the 16000 
questions which JKR says were submitted because some of them were 
totally useless in terms of finding things out about Harry. For 
example....

If you got the chance to make a Polyjuice Potion, who would you be 
and why?

So, will Harry be receiving a second kiss in his last two years at 
Hogwarts?

How do you feel when you see children reading your books?

If Hagrid was a real person and came to your house, what would you 
cook him for dinner?

Questions like this annoy me because they may have shouldered other, 
more valuable ones, out of the way. Perhaps my stress levels are 
gradualyl beginning to rise as I await Book 6.

Anyone else share my irritation at this sort of bandwidth wasting?




From rayheuer3 at aol.com  Thu Mar  4 22:43:26 2004
From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 17:43:26 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: More on the chat
Message-ID: <a3.535aceed.2d790b0e@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92107

gbannister10 at aol.com writes:
Questions like this [actual questions snipped] annoy me because they may have 
shouldered other, 
more valuable ones, out of the way. Perhaps my stress levels are 
gradualyl beginning to rise as I await Book 6.

Anyone else share my irritation at this sort of bandwidth wasting?
What annoyed *me* was the fact that these were precisely the questions that 
recieved special notice awards ("**School Competition Winner***).  Was this 
supposed to be a Q&A about the books or an essay contest?

  --  Ray


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com  Thu Mar  4 22:48:24 2004
From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 17:48:24 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Newbie and some questions about Slytherins
Message-ID: <68004A5A.0FABEE3C.4B073798@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92108

In a message dated 3/3/2004 8:44:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, "cubfanbudwoman" <susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net> writes:
>Unless any of the Slytherins are acting under the Imperious Curse, 
>then I'd argue that ALL of them have free will. It may not be an 
>EASY road to take to defy parents or tradition, but everyone 
>certainly has free will. Isn't that just about the most major theme 
>of the series to far, that it's more about our CHOICES than anything 
>else?

I'd just like to point out that there's freewill, and there's *freewill*.  I mean, I have the freewill to go to any college I want, right?  But I don't have the *freewill*.  I'll go where my parents make me.  Family honor/tradition dictates life for alot of people.  Just because there's the option to do something doesn't mean that you can always take it -- even if it is the right thing.

Oryomai
--Sorry to be jumping in so late!  I haven't been online for a while...funeral.



From iris_ft at yahoo.fr  Thu Mar  4 22:53:16 2004
From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (iris_ft)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 22:53:16 -0000
Subject: Some questions (JKR's chat)
In-Reply-To: <a3.535aceed.2d790b0e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <c28c0s+ibd4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92109

Hi all,

Interesting chat, wasn't it? I'm sorry for all the theories that
have come to their end after what JKR said (sorry for those who
thought that Snape was a vampire, for example). And now, some random
thoughts.

*Echo: Was Percy acting entirely of his own accord in Order of the
Phoenix?
JK Rowling replies -> I'm afraid so.

Iris:
So there's at least one of the Weasleys who might turn evil. Our
favourite wizard family isn't entirely good. Percy was the first
Weasley who was connected to Peter. The second one was Ron... Will
he follow the same way?

*kelly_holland: When you turn into an Animagus, can you choose what
animal you become? Or does this get "assigned" to you?
JK Rowling replies -> No, you can't choose. You become the animal
that suits you best. Imagine the humiliation when you finally
transform after years of study and find that you most closely
resemble a warthog.

Iris:
Imagine Peter's humiliation when he finally transformed after years
of study and found out that he most closely resembled a rat. He had
seen James become a stag and Sirius become a dog. He probably
expected another more gratifying aspect. His transformation was the
definitive evidence that he would never be their equal. Did he
decide then to get his revenge? Questions: when did he actually
start working for Voldemort? Did he try first to be secretly friend
with Severus; that would have been a kind of revenge? Did he become
a Death Eater before or after him? At the same time?

*bibwhang: Will Ron ever get on the Gryffindor quidditch team?
JK Rowling replies -> Well, he's already there! The question is,
whether the new Quidditch Captain will allow him to stay!

Iris:
Oh, that's interesting, because if Ron isn't in the team, he will
feel hugely frustrated, and we know what happened the last time he
had that kind of feeling (in GoF, when Harry entered the
Tournament). We know since the first book that Ron would like to be
Quidditch Captain. Maybe he hopes to succeed to Angelina? What would
happen if he were not in the team? How would Ron "King" Weasley
react? And how would he react if Harry were back in the team, and
not him? Did Ron become mature enough to master his jealousy? Or
would it be the open door to a new crisis between the two boys, or
to an even worse reaction (Ron betraying Harry; I don't say
necessarily "of his own accord", there are many ways in betrayal)?
And why couldn't Ron keep on playing Quidditch? Because of what
happened with the brain in the Department of Mysteries? And who will
be the new Quidditch Captain? Quidditch could be an important
narrative resort in the next book.

*class 14: If you were a animagus which animal would you be? and
why?
JK Rowling replies -> I gave Hermione my idea animagus, because it's
my favourite animal. You'll find the answer in the Room of
Requirement, Order of the Phoenix!

Iris:
Is it a lapsus or a clue? What we see in that room is Hermione's
Patronus, not her Animagus aspect. Hermione's Patronus is an otter.
An animal that traditionally is a companion for dead souls on their
way to the other world. Questions: Will Hermione have to play such a
part in the next story? Is she trying to become an Animagus? If they
are connected, is the shape of the Patronus , like the Animagus
aspect (see above) a reflection (another one!) , of the wizard's
personality? By the way, did JKR ever mention Ron's Patronus?

*Phoenix_Tear: Do you ever get a dream which helps you in writing
the Harry Potter series?
JK Rowling replies -> No, and I wish I had! I did once have an
incredible dream about Nicholas Flamel, though.

Iris:
I would have bet it...

Amicalement,

Iris






From rayheuer3 at aol.com  Thu Mar  4 22:54:29 2004
From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 17:54:29 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: More on the chat (edited)
Message-ID: <6b.23a70b95.2d790da5@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92110

I keep forgetting that Yahoo strips off the AOL editing.  Here's my post done 
right (Sorry about that, list-elves)

gbannister10 at aol.com writes:

>Questions like this [actual questions snipped] annoy me because they may have
>shouldered other,  more valuable ones, out of the way. Perhaps my stress 
levels are
>gradualyl beginning to rise as I await Book 6.

>Anyone else share my irritation at this sort of bandwidth wasting?

Ray replies:

What annoyed *me* was the fact that these were precisely the questions that 
recieved special notice awards ("**School Competition Winner***).  Was this 
supposed to be a Q&A about the books or an essay contest?

  --  Ray


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nkafkafi at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  4 23:06:33 2004
From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 23:06:33 -0000
Subject: My fav Q and A from todays chat w/ JKR
In-Reply-To: <c2897t+4joh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c28cpp+3042@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92111

> > Debbie: What will Ron's job be when he leaves school?
> > JK Rowling replies -> Well, assuming he lives to leave school... 
> I'm 
> > not going to tell you :)
> > 
> > hmmmmmmm so will Ron die? I will definitely shed tears over this 
> one 
> > if it occurs
> 
> Geoff:
> Yes but hasn't JKR made similar comments re Harry before now?

Neri:
Yes, lots of them. I recently went methodically through all the 
interviews in the Quick Quotes Quill site, and of course didn't find 
the clues I was looking for, but I noticed some obvious patterns. JKR 
has canned answers for those annoying questions that always repeat. 
Whenever she is asked if she is going to keep writing Harry after he 
leaves Hogwarts, she *always* answers "so you are so sure he is going 
to live...". This is where all the doom prophecies regarding Harry's 
death are coming from. In this chat she just generalized this pattern 
to include Ron also. This way she gets too birds in one shot: she 
shuts up the annoying questioner and raises the suspense level for 
her readers. 

Neri




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Thu Mar  4 23:31:36 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 23:31:36 -0000
Subject: Newbie and some questions about Slytherins
In-Reply-To: <68004A5A.0FABEE3C.4B073798@aol.com>
Message-ID: <c28e8o+tjri@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92112

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, SnapesSlytherin at a... wrote:
> In a message dated 3/3/2004 8:44:33 PM Eastern Standard 
Time, "cubfanbudwoman" <susiequsie23 at s...> writes:
> >Unless any of the Slytherins are acting under the Imperious 
Curse, 
> >then I'd argue that ALL of them have free will. ?It may not be an 
> >EASY road to take to defy parents or tradition, but everyone 
> >certainly has free will. ?Isn't that just about the most major 
theme 
> >of the series to far, that it's more about our CHOICES than 
anything 
> >else?
> 
> I'd just like to point out that there's freewill, and there's 
*freewill*.  I mean, I have the freewill to go to any college I 
want, right?  But I don't have the *freewill*.  I'll go where my 
parents make me.  Family honor/tradition dictates life for alot of 
people.  Just because there's the option to do something doesn't 
mean that you can always take it -- even if it is the right thing.
> 
> Oryomai

Susan again:
I'd like to respectfully disagree still.  I think it *is* free 
will.  It's not EASY--in fact, many times it may be dastardly 
difficult--but it is free will.  In the example I gave, I went on to 
talk about high school students I'd had who came from racist homes, 
and the Hogwarts crew are boarding school students, which means 
they're even more free to act/think/learn free of their parental 
influence.  If someone like Sirius could buck the Black family 
traditions & expectations, others could, too.  

I understand what you're saying about parents holding some control, 
esp. when they're in charge of the pursestrings, but I still think 
most of this comes down to choices, very difficult choices.  Even 
with parental restrictions, there is a degree of choice available to 
young people.  I mean, even if parents forbid something, the young 
person can make it known that they don't agree with or approve their 
parents.  ACTION may be denied, but ATTITUDE isn't.  Unthinking 
acceptance of parental views & stereotypes is what I think good 
education fights against.

Just my $.02

Siriusly Snapey Susan







From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Thu Mar  4 23:34:46 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 23:34:46 -0000
Subject: Some questions (JKR's chat)--Quidditch captain
In-Reply-To: <c28c0s+ibd4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c28eem+rv4b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92113

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "iris_ft" <iris_ft at y...> wrote:
> *bibwhang: Will Ron ever get on the Gryffindor quidditch team?
> JK Rowling replies -> Well, he's already there! The question is,
> whether the new Quidditch Captain will allow him to stay!
> 
> Iris:
> <BIG SNIP>
> And who will be the new Quidditch Captain? Quidditch could be an 
> important narrative resort in the next book.

Susan:
Something in JKR's humorous reply made me think that maybe GINNY 
would be the new captain.  I know that makes no real sense, but 
wouldn't it be just like a little sister to consider NOT letting her 
big brother be on the team? :-)

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From dudemom_2000 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  4 23:47:15 2004
From: dudemom_2000 at yahoo.com (dudemom_2000)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 23:47:15 -0000
Subject: JKR chat:  Sirius And the Motorcycle Clue
In-Reply-To: <c28843+s5ib@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c28f63+b3j1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92114

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> 
wrote:
> 
>Snip<
 
> Hmmm, but following onto that and the motorcycle, which 
> Amanda asked about in an earlier post...
> 
> Hagrid's story of meeting Sirius and Sirius's own account really 
> don't match up very well.
> 
> Hagrid says that he arrived at the Potters and took  Harry from 
> the ruins. Sirius showed up with the motorbike and tried to take 
> Harry. Then he gave the bike to Hagrid saying he wouldn't need it 
> anymore. (PoA ch 10) No mention of the Potters' bodies.
> 
> Sirius says he saw the house destroyed and the Potters' bodies.
> (PoA ch 19) No mention of Harry, Hagrid or the motorcycle.
> 
> So, what if it wasn't Sirius that Hagrid met?  If Voldemort has a 
> DE who can impersonate Sirius, and Pettigrew has one of those 
> mirrors...well, that could get sticky, couldn't it.
> 
> Pippin

*****\(@@)/*****

This is probably too simplistic but I think Hagrid has the 
motorcycle. He has to do errands for Dumbledore yet he has never 
mentioned using the Thestrals to get around and he can't do magic 
overtly so the motorcycle is the only logical choice for his 
transportation. Also if Sirius said he didn't need it anymore it is 
pretty logical that he must have told Hagrid to keep it - I can't 
imagine there was much time for Sirius to ponder his future at that 
point other than getting rid of a possession quickly. The reason we 
haven't seen it is that there has been no need for us to see it yet 
(which doesn't rule out that we won't see it again!).

After reading all the chat questions it became very clear to me that 
even though this was a chat for children (ie. Competition Winners), 
JKR was very aware of us and seemed to make sure she got some 
answers in for us. I can imagine her lurking here and enjoying all 
the theorizing her answers have generated!

Dudemom_2000

*****\(@@)/*****




From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  4 23:56:19 2004
From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (Marcus )
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 23:56:19 -0000
Subject: Shake-up at the Ministry
Message-ID: <c28fn3+eb6j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92115

Okay, let's get to it.  If we are getting a new Minister of Magic in
the next two books, who is it going to be?

I definitely doubt it will be Arthur Weasley.  He is just a minor
offical in charge of a two-man department.  Even if Dumbledore gets to
choose -- not likely -- I still don't see such a critical job as such
a critical time going to someone with as little administration
experience as AW.  I personally like the idea of Madame Bones.  In the
hearing, while many of the wizards were sucking up to Fudge, she kept
herself aloof from it all.  She is a woman of integrity and respect. 
She gets my vote!

What happens to Percy?  I suspect this sniveling little toady is going
to get tossed out on his ear.  Of course, the new Minister might like
such an amoral character to do his dirty work. Any thoughts?

Will Umbridge be brought up on criminal charges?  Very likely.  Fudge
is gone, she admitted in front of several witnesses that she set the
Dementors on Harry, and she was applying cruel and unusual punishment
at Hogwarts.  All those wizard children returned home for the summer
to loving, protective parents.  

Will the new Minister of Magic still be leery of Dumbledore?  It
wouldn't surprize me.

Will Arthur Weasley get a promotion.  I think so.  What to?  Any ideas?

Marcus





From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  5 00:02:29 2004
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 00:02:29 -0000
Subject: HPfGU Geography - Durmstrang
In-Reply-To: <c27hrv+rgrl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c28g2l+kegk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92116

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bviridis" <bufo_viridis at i...>
wrote:
> I guess it has been discussed to death, but as I was kindly directed 
> to the Geography section in HPfGU Fantastic Posts, in the section on 
> location of Durmstrang, in the Latvia subsection, it's clearly stated:
> (quote)
> CON: None so far; if you have arguments for this category, please 
> bring them up on the list. 
> 
> So please put aside your rotten tomatoes or change the note :)
> 
> Anyway may arguments for insuitability of Latvia are:
> 1. flat as a pancake
> 2. more or less at the same latitude as Hogwarts, so there stressing 
> "very short days in winter" won't have so much sense.
> 
> Personally I vote for Karelia region, because:
> 1. it's on the extreme border of German influence
> 2. the hills - small ones - are sligtly bigger than in Latvia; terrain 
> there is more rugged
> 3. more to north than Scotland (~Shetlands/Faroe)
> 
> Cheers, Viridis
> PS. Can somebody explain to me the sense of existence of the nearly 
> identically named yahoo groups (Hary_Potter_for_Grownups and HP (Harry 
>  Potter)forGrownups? This a rhetorical question, BTW.

bboy_mn:

I have professed many times that the ideal location is the Kola
Peninsula of Russia near the city of Murmansk. This peninsula is just
to the north west of Finland.

-It somewhat fits the implication of 'Scandinavia'.
-It is far enought north to have restricted daylight hours.
-It has lots of lake, as well as high hills/low mountains, and
generally rugged terrain.
-It is a desolate, sparsely populated region with few towns and roads.
-Being in Russia would create a logical connection to other Eastern
European counties.

http://bluemoonmarket.homestead.com/files/murmansk/pg1.htm

Please view the convinient maps I have created.

Thank you, and good night.

bboy_mn




From margdean at erols.com  Fri Mar  5 00:21:53 2004
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 19:21:53 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: More on the chat
References: <c28aqi+ea4h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4047C821.7D7CD932@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92117

Geoff Bannister wrote:
> 
> Geoff:

> If you got the chance to make a Polyjuice Potion, who would you be
> and why?
> 
> So, will Harry be receiving a second kiss in his last two years at
> Hogwarts?
> 
> How do you feel when you see children reading your books?
> 
> If Hagrid was a real person and came to your house, what would you
> cook him for dinner?
> 
> Questions like this annoy me because they may have shouldered other,
> more valuable ones, out of the way. Perhaps my stress levels are
> gradualyl beginning to rise as I await Book 6.
> 
> Anyone else share my irritation at this sort of bandwidth wasting?

Actually, no.  I think answers to questions like this (well,
okay, maybe not the one about the kiss :) ) is where JKR's
personality gets to shine through, and I found most of them
rather charming.  The woman doesn't exist to give us clues about
her forthcoming books, after all.  (She exists to =write= them,
yes?  :D )  Not to mention that she may =enjoy= answering them
more than she would dodging another so-called "valuable" question
that she doesn't want to answer yet.  Give JKR a break!


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From t.forch at mail.dk  Fri Mar  5 00:22:25 2004
From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 01:22:25 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: More on the chat
In-Reply-To: <c28aqi+ea4h@eGroups.com>
References: <c27v5d+oucs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20040305011809.05a01bd0@pop3.norton.antivirus>

No: HPFGUIDX 92118

At 22:32 04-03-04 +0000, Geoff Bannister wrote:

>If Hagrid was a real person and came to your house, what would you
>cook him for dinner?
>
>Questions like this annoy me because they may have shouldered other,
>more valuable ones, out of the way.

Yeah! Like for instance "If Hagrid was a real person and came to your
house, how would you cook him for dinner?" ;-)

>Perhaps my stress levels are gradualyl beginning to rise as I await Book 6.

Ouch! That's early. Reread the series a few times to get more calm ...

>Anyone else share my irritation at this sort of bandwidth wasting?

There were definitely a few of the questions that I thought were utterly
indifferent or which had been answered a hundred times before
("advice to a wannabe author" ...)

It's not so much that people ask them - I don't suppose we should
expect kids to ask only questions we would like to know the answers to,
but I certainly think they could have screened the questions better.

/Troels




From patientx3 at aol.com  Fri Mar  5 00:27:02 2004
From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 00:27:02 -0000
Subject: Some questions (JKR's chat) (wormtail)
In-Reply-To: <c28c0s+ibd4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c28hgm+bd5e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92119


Iris wrote:
>>Imagine Peter's humiliation when he finally transformed after years
of study and found out that he most closely resembled a rat. He had
seen James become a stag and Sirius become a dog. He probably
expected another more gratifying aspect. His transformation was the
definitive evidence that he would never be their equal.<<

What I've always wondered about was why they didn't see that as a 
CLUE that Peter couldn't really be trusted. Maybe the four of them 
never really thought about what animagnus forms meant, but when 
someones inner-self is represented as a RAT, maybe you should think 
twice before using him as your secret-keeper.

Iris continued:
>>Did he decide then to get his revenge? Questions: when did he 
actually start working for Voldemort? Did he try first to be secretly 
friend with Severus; that would have been a kind of revenge? Did he 
become a Death Eater before or after him? At the same time?<<

I can't see him going to Snape, because even Peter would know how 
*that* would go over. I'm inclined to believe his story in the SS 
that he only changed sides because he was afraid of Voldemort and 
because he was sure Voldemort was going to win. If you look at the 
flashback scene in the pensieve there isn't a trace of animosity. 
(personally, though I'm more a believer in ESE!Lupin being the one 
that *chose* to go over to the other side, still waters run deep....)


-HunterGreen




From csalgado at rcn.com  Thu Mar  4 18:11:22 2004
From: csalgado at rcn.com (oldone7777)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 18:11:22 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat- Sirius Black
In-Reply-To: <c27q9l+imjv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c27rga+q1fh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92120

oldone:

> > Ok we know Sirius' body probabily won't return but,... his 
> > reflection giving advice through the mirror? Maybe his spirit 
can't 
> > rest till he see things through.
> > 
> > So were not totally rid of him. At the end of the second book 
after 
> > advising Harry through the defeat of Voldemort, I suggest Sirius 
> can 
> > finally rest.

Alla:
> 
> He! At least I know I don't have to get rid of my dellusions 
> completely. Thanks JKR!


oldone:

GAAKKK!!!

I can see the scene now! Picture this!
Harry's face tear streaked, dirty, his hand bleeding from clutching 
a shard of mirror, in some dark corner of Hogwarts. He talks to 
Sirius. (Cue up the dramatic music).

HP) Sirius! It's all my fault! If I only checked first, If I'd 
Listened to everyone, you'd still be alive! Sobbs hysterically.

SB) No Harry, I was stubborn and spoiling for a fight. (Music louder)
It's my own fault and that bastard_______sent the curse at me! Damn 
he/her knocked me through the veil!

HP) still crying

SB) Harry if you need me, (Violins stop) take the glass, click your 
heels together three times and say there's no place like home.. no 
place like home.

So disappointing if she actually writes it up this way. Harry needs 
support from the living! not the semi-dead!

oldone





From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  4 20:08:49 2004
From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 20:08:49 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat- Sirius Black
In-Reply-To: <c281sk+4mkc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c282ch+cp7s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92121

Kneasy:

> I  have to admit that I was surprised that there were hints about
> the broken mirror in the chat. Not what I expected at all. Even so,
> my favoured medium for seeing more of Sirius is the Pensieve.
> That way we might get some answers to some critical questions.


But... the pensieve only allows for the examination of memory, yes? You don't get to 
interact/converse with folks when you're in a pensieve, so what new insight could Harry 
gain from Sirius thereby???





From robersondd at comcast.net  Thu Mar  4 20:11:07 2004
From: robersondd at comcast.net (Debbie Roberson)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 20:11:07 -0000
Subject: JKR chat:  Sirius
In-Reply-To: <c27ul9+uvn7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c282gr+10bnv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92122

 "Kelly" wrote:

<snip>
> I've been thinking on this quite a bit.  Why would Sirius 
have "had" 
> to die:
> 1.  <snip>
> 
> 2.  Harry has learned that just because he does not like someone, 
> doesn't mean he can't trust them.  If he had thought of Snape as an 
> ally, things could have gone very differently at the end of OoTP.
> 

Debbie R. here:

We see the lesson, but I don't believe Harry has as yet.  If you look 
at the end of OOP, Harry was still vowing vengence upon Snape for his 
part in the events leading to his Godfather's death.  

He also has been shown the lesson - but has yet to realize -  
that "blaming" doesn't help the situation (and could actually make 
things worse - which he will probably have to deal with early on in 
book 6). 

Debbie R.





From free_lunch_club at hotmail.com  Fri Mar  5 00:40:09 2004
From: free_lunch_club at hotmail.com (thetruthisoutthere_13)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 00:40:09 -0000
Subject: Shake-up at the Ministry
In-Reply-To: <c28fn3+eb6j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c28i99+u711@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92123

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Marcus " <prefectmarcus at y...> 
wrote:

Marcus wrote:
> Will Arthur Weasley get a promotion.  I think so.  What to?  Any 
ideas?

Rowling said in the chat that, while the magical world and non-
magical world remain separate, Muggles do notice more now that 
Voldemort is back. I can Weasley's two man department suddenly 
become much more important. If Arthur *does* one day become Minister 
of Magic, I bet he gets the job because of the skills he shows 
dealing with the second coming of Voldemort.

-kg
thinks Susan's Aunty is a good choice for the next Minister of Magic 
too




From weirdsister06 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  4 20:43:57 2004
From: weirdsister06 at yahoo.com (weirdsister06)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 20:43:57 -0000
Subject: Sirius
Message-ID: <c284ed+plqm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92124

Neri,

That is a fascinating theory.  The power Voldemort knows not, to 
which a room in the Dept of Mysteries is devoted, the power of the 
heart, is quite powerful indeed.  Powerful enough to expel V from 
Harry in the MOM, powerful enough to protect Harry from V all of 
these years, powerful enough that Dumbledore almost "risked all" to 
protect Harry from the truth of his fate because he loved Harry so 
completely.  I do believe this will play a part in Harry's eventual 
defeat of Voldemort.

If only Harry had thought of the package and looked in the mirror 
after he'd had that dream during his History of Magic OWL exam!





From dk59us at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  4 21:51:38 2004
From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 21:51:38 -0000
Subject: JKR chat re: Pettigrew and Cedric
Message-ID: <c288da+vl55@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92125

I dropped out of the Cedric/Pettigrew thread a while back because
there seemed to be so many possibilities regarding 2nd wandsmen and
all...it began to boggle my poor little mind.  But after this
morning's chat, it appears that Peter did kill Cedric himself with
Voldemort's wand.

>From the chat:
Rorujin: Did Wormtail used Voldemort's wand to kill Cedric? Is it why
Cedric comes out of Voldemort's wand even though was Wormtail who
killed him?
JK Rowling replies -> Correct!

She doesn't seem to leave much wriggle room on that particular
question (for a change the questioner asked a straight-forward
question and got a straight-forward answer).

Of course, this doesn't eliminate the possibility of other sinister
ESE! turncoats hanging around in the shadows.  It just means they
weren't using LV's wand to kill Cedric.  And just maybe this means
that Peter's got a bit more skill than most (both characters and
readers) give him credit for.  People have underestimated him before
to their detriment, perhaps in book six LV will do the same
(apparently we'll find out what's happened to him since the graveyard
in the next book).

Eustace_Scrubb, thinking that sometimes a grassy knoll is just a
grassy knoll.





From steve at hp-lexicon.org  Fri Mar  5 00:41:32 2004
From: steve at hp-lexicon.org (hp_lexicon)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 00:41:32 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat- Sirius Black
In-Reply-To: <c27rga+q1fh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c28ibs+cig3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92126

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "oldone7777" <csalgado at r...> 
wrote:
> oldone:
> 
> > > Ok we know Sirius' body probabily won't return but,... his 
> > > reflection giving advice through the mirror? 

Maybe. We have seen mirrors that talk and give advice, but their 
kind of advice is usually limited to "Tuck in your shirt, scruffy."

I think Sirius might very well return in the form of a portrait. I'm 
guessing that a wizarding portrait would have had to have been 
painted before the subject died, but since Sirius is from a rich 
family, I can easily imagine that there's a portrait of him laying 
around Grimmauld Place somewhere, probably under a heap of junk in 
the attic or something. We have seen portraits not only give advice 
but actually run errands for the living. Perhaps all that needs to 
happen is for that old portrait to be "developed" in potions, kind 
of like a photograph.

Steve
Lexicon-ing tonight.




From jojobinks1983 at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Mar  4 22:00:30 2004
From: jojobinks1983 at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Jo=20Hill?=)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 22:00:30 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: "He will mark hi as equal"
In-Reply-To: <c286b4+74fo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040304220030.20635.qmail@web60807.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92127

"He will mark
 him as his equal."


JKR said today that the fact that both Harry and Voldemort survived in PS was crucial. Now I'm wondering if Voldie hasn't marked anyone yet (sorry if this has been done before). The term "mark" is quite ambiguous (says I with a thesaurus on her lap) It could be symbolic e.g. darm mark sort of thing, it can be used in relation to the achievment of a goal, it could refer to a scar (not necessarily Harry's), it can mean an evaluation of ability and it can refer to a simple observation (e.g. one day Voldie just decides that Harry is his equal). I think that Dumbledore's interpretation of the prophecy may be misleading as we have been in awe of his infalliable wisdom for thousands of pages now. What do you think?

Jo






From jojobinks1983 at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Mar  4 22:07:25 2004
From: jojobinks1983 at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Jo=20Hill?=)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 22:07:25 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR Chat  "The Crucial and Central Question"
In-Reply-To: <c286b4+74fo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040304220725.71880.qmail@web60804.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92128

Jen wrote:
Did something happen to Tom Riddle at birth that interfered with his 
attempt to kill Harry, rather than just the protection on Harry by 
Lily, Dumbledore, etc.? JKR's reply says there was more to his birth 
than reported so far (all reported by Tom and therefore possibly 
inaccurate). Was in a magical occurence? Another insult from the 
Riddle family? 

Jo (me):
Didn't Voldie's mum die giving birth to him. She was a witch so if it was a choice between the two surviving, and the mother chose Voldie couldn't this be another example of "ancient" protective magic. He said himself "I should have remembered it" or something along those lines (GoF). Might explain the rebounded AK not killing him (if that's what it was).








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From mad_maxime at hotmail.com  Thu Mar  4 22:44:21 2004
From: mad_maxime at hotmail.com (mad_maxime)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 22:44:21 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat
In-Reply-To: <c27gji+j1ft@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c28bg5+f8dd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92129

Karen wrote:
> JKR Chat ref:
> Luisa: How old are Charlie and Bill Weasley in relation to their 
> other siblings? 
> JK Rowling replies -> Oh dear, maths. Let me think. Bill is two   
> years older than Charlie, who is two years older than Percy. 
> 
> Taking the above as 'fact' add the seven year rule from POA and the 
> PS/SS quote of not having won "since Charlie left".
> 
> What theories have we got.
> 1) Charlie left school early?
> 2) Charlie left the team earlier than 7th year?
> 3) JKR can't remember what she's already written?
> 
> Let me know if there are any other possibilities, because she's now 
> sent my timeline into mass confusion.


Max:

It's also possible that JKR is not as tuned in to the exact ages of
all her characters as some of the readers.  I think she was speaking
off the top of her head, and might have 'flubbed up' a bit. 





From free_lunch_club at hotmail.com  Fri Mar  5 00:51:28 2004
From: free_lunch_club at hotmail.com (thetruthisoutthere_13)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 00:51:28 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat
In-Reply-To: <c28bg5+f8dd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c28iug+oloa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92130


> Max:
> 
> It's also possible that JKR is not as tuned in to the exact ages of
> all her characters as some of the readers.  I think she was 
speaking
> off the top of her head, and might have 'flubbed up' a bit.

Me:

It most likely shows that the ages of the Weasley Children are 
immaterial to the greater story. In other words, the likelihood of 
additional and unmentioned Weasley children running around is 
unlikely. If this were a major plot point, I'm sure Rowling would 
have known.

-kg




From nzcate at hotmail.com  Thu Mar  4 23:04:55 2004
From: nzcate at hotmail.com (nzcate)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 23:04:55 -0000
Subject: JK's latest revelations- who will die?
In-Reply-To: <00af01c40231$d8b96be0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com>
Message-ID: <c28cmn+gdk8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92131

NZ Cate:
> 3) "Assuming he lives"...Ron has a future outside school ???!! 
> (hoping she's teasing here!)
> 
Taryn:
> I wouldn't worry any more than any other character. She's done this 
same exact kind of thing in regards to Harry, just not in this 
particular chat. I think it's just one of several ways to keep people 
on their toes about not knowing how the story's going to end.


Cate:
I'm hoping you are right in regards to Ron - I would hate to not see 
the trio make it to the end intact. 

That does bring me to another question though - I suspect that there 
will be a self-sacrifice / martyr type scenario in either book 6 or 
7. This may have been discussed here before (my apologies - I'm 
relatively new) - but who do people think will make the "ultimate 
sacrifice?"

My choices are: 1)Dumbledore (a la Obi Wan - "the force is inside you 
Harry!") - Harry is now truly alone in facing Voldy.
2) Snape - the ultimate love/hate act between Snape & Harry & the 
final vindication of Snape's motives all these years. 
3) Wormtail - sort of obvious.
4) Rob - after all, he proved himself capable of this in the chess 
match in PS (although I'd hate it)
5) Harry - the ultimate "if I die, he dies" scenario  - evermore to 
be known as "the boy who HAD lived"  (hope this is totally wrong)

Any thoughts? 

Cheers, 
NZCate





From nzcate at hotmail.com  Thu Mar  4 23:15:41 2004
From: nzcate at hotmail.com (nzcate)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 23:15:41 -0000
Subject: More on the chat
In-Reply-To: <c28aqi+ea4h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c28dat+prrc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92132

Geoff:
> Having skimmed through some of the chat session (I shall be setling 
> down in bed for a good read before bye-byes later on)I was led to 
> wonder what sort of selection process was applied to the 16000 
> questions which JKR says were submitted because some of them were 
> totally useless in terms of finding things out about Harry. For 
> example....
> 
> If you got the chance to make a Polyjuice Potion, who would you be 
> and why?
> 
> So, will Harry be receiving a second kiss in his last two years at 
> Hogwarts?
> 
> How do you feel when you see children reading your books?
> 
> If Hagrid was a real person and came to your house, what would you 
> cook him for dinner?
> 
> Questions like this annoy me because they may have shouldered 
other, 
> more valuable ones, out of the way. Perhaps my stress levels are 
> gradualyl beginning to rise as I await Book 6.
> 
> Anyone else share my irritation at this sort of bandwidth wasting?

Cate:

I totally agree!!!  I sat up till midnight here in NZ with bated 
breath & was very disappointed at some of the questions - couldn't 
believe that some of them were school winners! I mean that one about 
the brooms being riden backwards - come on!!! There were heaps that 
had been asked in previous interviews too, two examples being which 
character JK identified with, and what animal her patronus would 
resemble. 

I so wanted more indepth character & plot questions answered. Do you 
think they purposely chose the bland ones?

Cheers, 
Cate

 





From steve at hp-lexicon.org  Fri Mar  5 00:54:13 2004
From: steve at hp-lexicon.org (hp_lexicon)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 00:54:13 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat
In-Reply-To: <c28bg5+f8dd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c28j3l+mcfk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92133

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mad_maxime" <mad_maxime at h...> 
wrote:
> 
> 
> Max:
> 
> It's also possible that JKR is not as tuned in to the exact ages of
> all her characters as some of the readers.  I think she was 
speaking
> off the top of her head, and might have 'flubbed up' a bit.

I think this is clearly a flub, but an instructive one. We don't 
know for sure how old Charlie and Bill are, and she didn't either 
(hence the caveat at the beginning about maths). What we do know now 
is that they are relatively close in age--that there really isn't a 
gap. She may have guessed the years wrong off the top of her head, 
but the basic concept is still there. Using this understanding, we 
can say that Charlie must be "within a few years" of Percy and also 
of Bill. 

I think it's highly unlikely to the point of silliness that Charlie 
would still have been at Hogwarts when Harry arrived. They would 
have met, plain and simple. No two ways about it. The Quidditch 
conflicts just adds weight to the argument against Charlie being 
there.

However, if he left a year before, what would we have left? All the 
players are second or third year and have been playing at least a 
year before that year. That young team couldn't win the cup last 
couple of years, even with Charlie. Wood is frantic to put a team 
together but can't fill the Seeker slot, now abandonded by Charlie. 
Then Harry comes along. The rest is history.

Steve
who liked every response except the ages of the Weasleys one!!!




From karen.lyall at blueyonder.co.uk  Fri Mar  5 00:17:26 2004
From: karen.lyall at blueyonder.co.uk (karenlyall666)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 00:17:26 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat and Sirius' Death
Message-ID: <c28gum+1kfc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92134

A couple of points and a massive concern about Sirius' Death.

1) The motorcycle - wasn't there a conversation between Mr Weasley 
and Kingsley Shacklebolt about the bike?  (a quick check of the books 
and she's back) There was!  The day of Harry's MOM Hearing Kingsley 
requested a report detailing any "flying Muggle vehicles sighted in 
the last twelve months". Could this be the clue?  Is it with 
Kingsley?  Is it with the Weasleys?  Is it in the hands of the Order?

None of these options seem valid to me as it's been missing since 
Hagrid 'borrowed it' and no-one knew Sirius was innocent (except 
Sirius and Pettigrew) until the end of POA?  Would any of the above 
secretly keep a possession of a known criminal?

2) The mirror - Could Lupin find/use it?  He seemed to be the only 
order member living full time at Number 12 with Sirius so would he 
not be the logical choice of person to get Sirius' 'things' 
together.  We also know that he's not as strict as some when it comes 
to magical items (ie returning the Marauders Map to Harry).  He is 
also, I must admit, the person I would like to find it.  He's the 
only one of the original 'gang' left alive, and I think would make a 
good substitute 'parental figure' for Harry.  It would also do Lupin 
some good to have a charge he was solely responsible for, I think.  
It may make him think twice about his 'someone likes me lets let him 
get away with (almost) murder' attitude.

And now for my major concern that I can't believe I didn't realise 
sooner...

3) What is now going to happen to Beaky!?!  Will Dumbledore be able 
to clear Sirius' name postumously, and some how clear Buckbeak so he 
can return to Hogwarts? 

JK please don't leave him alone with Kreacher for too long...  
Although that would be a neat if vicious way of getting rid of 
Kreacher...

And my last thought.  We now know from the chat that the marauders 
were all Gryffindors and from the Pensieve scene in OOTP we know they 
were in the same year.  

Can anyone point me to a piece of canon that state's Lily was a 
Gryffindor and that she is the same age as James et all.  If we can't 
find it maybe that's why Harry didn't look for her in the pensieve 
scene because she wasn't supposed to be there?

This post turned out to be longer than anticipated, make of it what 
you will.  All opinions gladly received.

Karen






From sydorov47 at yahoo.com.au  Fri Mar  5 00:37:30 2004
From: sydorov47 at yahoo.com.au (sydorov47)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 00:37:30 -0000
Subject: More on the chat
In-Reply-To: <c28aqi+ea4h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c28i4a+cppg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92135

Geoff:

> Questions like this annoy me because they may have shouldered 
other, 
> more valuable ones, out of the way. Perhaps my stress levels are 
> gradualyl beginning to rise as I await Book 6.
> 
> Anyone else share my irritation at this sort of bandwidth wasting?

Common! She was chatting with kids, not being interrogated by Special 
Chamber Of Fans High Commision. :-)





From stevejjen at earthlink.net  Fri Mar  5 01:11:33 2004
From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 01:11:33 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat- Sirius Black
In-Reply-To: <c282ch+cp7s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c28k45+6kru@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92136


> Kneasy:
> 
> > I  have to admit that I was surprised that there were hints about
> > the broken mirror in the chat. Not what I expected at all. Even 
so,
> > my favoured medium for seeing more of Sirius is the Pensieve.
> > That way we might get some answers to some critical questions.


antoshachekhonte: 
> But... the pensieve only allows for the examination of memory, 
yes? You don't get to 
> interact/converse with folks when you're in a pensieve, so what 
new insight could Harry 
> gain from Sirius thereby???


Jen: I can tell you one big memory we need an explanation for--the 
Prank. JKR said today, 'you'll find out more about this in due 
course' so someone needs to come through with a full explanation. 
The problem is, who's left? Lupin has no memory of it, Snape 
remembers only what Sirius told him and then James saving him in the 
tunnel. That leaves Wormtail, the only living person who knows the 
full story of that night.

So, either Wormtail antes up a memory for the Pensieve, or we'll 
have to get that back story from another magical device: Portrait, 
two-way mirror from the dead, *something*.

Hey, what if that two-way mirror also holds memories? Harry would 
just have to figure out how to access them.

Jen




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  5 01:16:41 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 01:16:41 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat:  Weasley Ages
In-Reply-To: <c27rdb+748b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c28kdp+65ni@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92137

Debbie wrote: 
> I don't think it makes sense for Charlie to have left early.  For one 
> thing, based on what we learned about career qualifications in OOP, I 
> think it's quite unlikely that Charlie could have qualified for his 
> job with the dragons had he not earned his Newts in Care of Magical 
> Creatures.  The twins, on the other hand, left to become 
> entrepreneurs, and didn't need credentials.
> 
> The possibility that the Quidditch Cup wasn't played Charlie's last 
> year seems more appealing to me, except that it doesn't explain why 
> Charlie wasn't at Hogwarts in PS/SS, and it means that Gryffindor 
> hadn't won the Cup since a time before Charlie left.
> 
> Debbie
> polishing up her application to assist JKR in revising the series to 
> eliminate Flints such as this


Carol:
First, I agree that Charlie would have needed his NEWts to qualify for
such an exotic and dangerous job, and certainly he would have needed
to be at least seventeen to be hired for it. I also think it's
unlikely that the greatest quidditch player the school had seen in
many years, captain of his team as well, would have left the school
for any reason. (Look at Oliver Wood.)

But even if Charlie did leave  a year early, he still, by JKR's
calculations, would have been seventeen when Ron was eleven. Yet the
Gryffindor team had last won the cup seven years before SS/PS--meaning
that it was won when Charlie was ten, before he even entered the
school! Something isn't right here, and I think it's JKR's math
(combined with a spur-of-the moment response). Clearly it's not
something she's thought about. In other words, I agree with Debbie:
It's a Flint and nothing but a Flint.

IMO, Charlie was in his seventh year (and seventeen years old) seven
years before SS/PS, making him nine years older than Percy and
thirteen years older than Ron.

(BTW, if the seven years before comment is from CoS, just subtract one
year from my calculation of his age.)

Carol (who isn't good at math, either, but knows an inconsistency when
she sees one and would love to join Debbie in assisting JKR with her
revisions)




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  5 01:19:35 2004
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 01:19:35 -0000
Subject: JK's latest revelations- who will die?
In-Reply-To: <c28cmn+gdk8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c28kj7+enbh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92138

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nzcate" <nzcate at h...> wrote:
> NZ Cate:
> Cate:
> I'm hoping you are right in regards to Ron - I would hate to not 
see 
> the trio make it to the end intact. 
> 
> That does bring me to another question though - I suspect that 
there 
> will be a self-sacrifice / martyr type scenario in either book 6 or 
> 7. This may have been discussed here before (my apologies - I'm 
> relatively new) - but who do people think will make the "ultimate 
> sacrifice?"
> 
> My choices are: 1)Dumbledore (a la Obi Wan - "the force is inside 
you 
> Harry!") - Harry is now truly alone in facing Voldy.
> 2) Snape - the ultimate love/hate act between Snape & Harry & the 
> final vindication of Snape's motives all these years. 
> 3) Wormtail - sort of obvious.
> 4) Rob - after all, he proved himself capable of this in the chess 
> match in PS (although I'd hate it)
> 5) Harry - the ultimate "if I die, he dies" scenario  - evermore to 
> be known as "the boy who HAD lived"  (hope this is totally wrong)
> 
> Any thoughts? 
> 
> Cheers, 
> NZCate


Let it be Dumbledore, pretty please? Well, Wormtail sounds even 
better. I see no redeeming qualities in him. None, whatsoever.

Worst come to worst, anybody, but Harry. :o) Although it is possible, 
of course.


Alla




From nianya_c at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  5 01:27:40 2004
From: nianya_c at yahoo.com (nianya_c)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 01:27:40 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat- Sirius Black
In-Reply-To: <c28k45+6kru@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c28l2c+katc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92139

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" <stevejjen at e...> 
wrote:
> 
> > Kneasy:

I  have to admit that I was surprised that there were hints about
the broken mirror in the chat. Not what I expected at all. Even  so,
my favoured medium for seeing more of Sirius is the Pensieve.
That way we might get some answers to some critical questions.
> 
> 
> antoshachekhonte: 
But... the pensieve only allows for the examination of memory, 
yes? You don't get to interact/converse with folks when you're in a 
pensieve, so what new insight could Harry gain from Sirius thereby???
> 
> 
 Jen: I can tell you one big memory we need an explanation for--the 
 Prank. JKR said today, 'you'll find out more about this in due 
course' so someone needs to come through with a full explanation. 
The problem is, who's left? Lupin has no memory of it, Snape 
remembers only what Sirius told him and then James saving him in the 
tunnel. That leaves Wormtail, the only living person who knows the 
full story of that night.
> 

Nia Replied:

It seems like the pensieve won't help for the prank. How would 
Pettigrew or Lupin have any access to the pensieve to put a memory 
in there? However.....I have another thought about the mirror. What 
if Sirius had the mirror with him when he died and he now has a 
chance to give it to James so that James and/or Lily can communicate 
directly with Harry at some point. JKR said we would not see a 
living James or Lily....but that doesn't necessarily mean that Harry 
can't communicate with them from the other side. James could tell 
Harry about the prank directly and Sirius could put in his 2 cents 
as well.

Nia




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  5 01:35:27 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 01:35:27 -0000
Subject: What would you think if.....
In-Reply-To: <01cb01c401b9$5367b6e0$6601a8c0@jennifer>
Message-ID: <c28lgv+k1n9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92140

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jennifer Massey"
<barbienut75 at e...> wrote:
> What would you "feel" if JKR killed Harry?
> 
> My cousin said to me the other day, she didn't feel the need to read
the HP
> book becasue, they will end like they should, good will win over
evil. What
> if JKR didn't end it like she should, and shocked the whole world?
> 
> Would you be pissed? I've not been reading these books for very
> long....probably not even 6 months...but by the time the 7th book
gets out
> I'm sure I will be attatched to Harry, I am already, and it would
kill me if
> he died. I probably would never read another JKR book again.
> What about you?

For me it's a case of what's right vs. what's easy. It would be very
easy to have Voldemort kill Harry (heroes and protagonists die all the
time), but it wouldn't be right. Good has to triumph over evil, thank
you, or we'll have wasted our time sympathizing with these characters
and their world for seven books. Really, though, Voldemort can't win
because that would mean there was no defeating him and he would
ultimately take over the Muggle world. That can't believably happen.
VW1 has to end in 1996 with the permanent overthrow of Voldemort. The
hard part for JKR is figuring out how to make that happen without
turning Harry into another Voldemort. (I emphatically don't want him
to use Avada Kedavra or any other Unforgiveable Curse. I do want him
to use his wits and his courage and to survive.)

So how would I feel if JKR killed Harry? Betrayed! She'd be Wormtail
in my book.

Carol




From gsanderson at cfl.rr.com  Fri Mar  5 01:36:01 2004
From: gsanderson at cfl.rr.com (gsanderson at cfl.rr.com)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 01:36:01 -0000
Subject: Voldemort's Wand
In-Reply-To: <00c901c40233$273e52c0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com>
Message-ID: <c28li1+21k9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92141

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Taryn Kimel" <amani at c...> 
wrote:
> Taryn:
> "My curse was deflected by the woman's foolish sacrifice, and it 
rebounded upon myslef. Aaah...pain beyond pain, my friends; nothing 
could have prepared me for it. I was ripped from my body, I was less 
than spirit, less than the meanest ghost...but still, I was alive. 
<...> Nevertheless, I was as powerless as the weakest creature alive, 
and without the means to help myself...for I had no body, and every 
spell that might have helped me required the use of a wand..." [GoF 
American Paperback, pg. 653]
> 
> Straight from the horse's mouth.
>

There is also no canon that I can recall to say that LV was at the 
Potters alone.  It would make sense that Wormtail would be on the 
scene since he would want to be on hand to claim his victory.  Just 
because we don't hear him in Harry's memory, doesn't mean he wasn't 
waiting right outside.  Once the attack was over, Wormtail could have 
grabbed the wand and ran off.  Since Sirius found him in town, who's 
to say he wasn't just returning from Gringotts where he stashed the 
wand in his vault.  If Sirius can retrieve stuff from his vault via 
owl, then Wormtail could do the same. 

Kristen




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  5 01:40:31 2004
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 01:40:31 -0000
Subject: What would you think if.....
In-Reply-To: <c28lgv+k1n9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c28lqf+a72d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92142

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" 
<justcarol67 at y...> wrote:
> So how would I feel if JKR killed Harry? Betrayed! She'd be Wormtail
> in my book.
> 
> Carol

Oh, yes. I don't know about betrayed, but I most certainly will be 
dissappointed. I want the good guys win and I want Harry to have some 
kind of normal happy life without Voldy thing breating over his 
shoulder all the time. :o)


Alla






From gsanderson at cfl.rr.com  Fri Mar  5 01:54:12 2004
From: gsanderson at cfl.rr.com (gsanderson at cfl.rr.com)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 01:54:12 -0000
Subject: Questions that did NOT get answered...
Message-ID: <c28mk4+go93@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92143

With 16,000 submitted, I'm guessing that most questions got asked, 
but here's a list of burning questions that did NOT get answered.

What affect does Lucius Malfoy's generous donations have on St. 
Mungos?

Will the Longbottoms recover now that Lucius isn't around to make 
his "donations"?

What can you tell us about next year's DADA teacher?

Was there anyone with LV when he attacked the Potters?

Will we find out the extent of Petunia's knowledge of the wizarding 
world?

[I'm so glad we'll find out about Dudley's worst memory!]

Is Dumbledore's brother the owner of the Hog's Head?

Is Mark Evans related to Harry?

If Harry does magic with one Phoenix feather in his wand, can he do 
even more powerful things in conjunction with Fawkes?  

Will Harry master Occlumency?










From BrwNeil at aol.com  Fri Mar  5 02:05:12 2004
From: BrwNeil at aol.com (BrwNeil at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 21:05:12 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Shake-up at the Ministry
Message-ID: <cd.6bb4971.2d793a58@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92144

In a message dated 3/4/2004 7:01:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
prefectmarcus at yahoo.com writes:
<Okay, let's get to it.  If we are getting a new Minister of Magic in
<the next two books, who is it going to be?

<I definitely doubt it will be Arthur Weasley.  He is just a minor
offical in charge of a two-man department
This is why I don't bet on horse races because I'd probably lose the family 
home, but my money is definitely on AW.  Too often has JKR emphasized his lowly 
ministry position and his lack of money.  What greater slap in the face to 
Percy could there be than the father he rejected becoming MoM.

The clincher is that JKR always has Hermione being right except when excited 
and Ron always being wrong except when joking.  Ron joked about Gryffindor 
having as much chance of wining the Quidditch cup as his dad becoming MoM.  
Gryffindor won and so will the long shot Weasley.

<What happens to Percy?  I suspect this sniveling little toady is going
<to get tossed out on his ear.  
<Marcus
I'm wondering if the pompous git will ever give his family and Harry a proper 
apology.  I doubt if he knows how to say, I'm sorry or I was wrong.


Neil


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From siriuslove71 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  5 02:16:12 2004
From: siriuslove71 at yahoo.com (Diana_Sirius_fan)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 02:16:12 -0000
Subject: Snape NOT a Vampire (Was  The Marauders are all Gryffindors)
In-Reply-To: <c27jli+tjp9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c28ntc+tpvt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92145

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda" <editor at t...> wrote:
> > Catherine:
> > > Yes, and we should therefore all commiserate with Pippin on 
> > this,  and take our hats off to Amanda, who had faith all along.
> > > 
> 
> Pippin:
> > 
> > Ahh well. ::takes off hat to Amanda::
> 
> Oh, I'm sorry--I got so excited I posted my gloat before I saw your 
> hats there. [cannot contain self, does happy dance] See, Catherine, 
> the ingredients list *was* correct!
> 
> > But ESE!Lupin has escaped the barrage and even picked up  a 
> > little ballast.  At least we've been told there *is* more to be 
> > revealed about why Sirius died and that, YES! there's a trail of 
> > clues leading to the motorcycle.
> 
> Okay, that one was weird, can someone post what clues they have on 
> that? Like, anything? Coming from a L.O.O.N., I can't think of any 
> right offhand.
> 
> ~Validated!Amanda, passing out conciliatory butterbeers with barely 
> concealed jubilation


JKR said, "Erm..I don't think so" when asked if there was a 
correlation between Snape and Vampires.  This is JKR speak we are 
talking about.  The "Erm... I don't think so" is not saying ,"No, 
Snape is not a Vampire." She still could be tricking us.  She is 
saying she doesn't think so but that still leaves a little room 
for "yes, he might me."  I will only take my hat off after book 7 is 
over and it concludes with Snape not being a vamp.  Up until then I 
still think it is possible.   Diana







From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com  Fri Mar  5 02:50:33 2004
From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 02:50:33 -0000
Subject: FILK: Sounds I Hear
Message-ID: <c28ptp+gfej@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92146

Song #3 from A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Chamber

Sounds I Hear (CoS, Chap 9) 

To the tune of Love I Hear from Sondheim's A Funny Thing Happened on 
the Way to the Forum

A brief MIDI can be heard here:

http://www.bway2.com/tracks/forum/

Dedicated to Pixieberry

THE SCENE: Gryffindor Commons. HARRY tells RON & HERMIONE about the 
eldritch voices he has overheard

HARRY
Now that we're alone,
May I tell you,
I've been hearing something strange?
Either something stole my cloak
Or else a fiend
That none of us can see.
I think I'm not insane,
I've not a damaged brain.
>From everything I've heard,
It certainly is most hungry
.

Sounds I hear
No one else perceives.
Oh, sounds I hear
Roars and shrieks.
Threats I hear
Make you ask
In tones too gentle
If I am growing mental-
Ly weak,
You fear.

RON & HERMIONE
Sounds you hear
They don't go away,
They just grind away,
In a quite psychotic tone.
We say that it's
Not a good sign
Voices to hear
None else divine
What sounds you hear,
They wail... Unclear ...
Unknown


HARRY
How do they go?
Ss-ss-ss-ss-ss-ss-ss...
(They hiss a lot, too.)
With hates they rail 
For blood and gore
No way will I tell Dumbledore!
"Let's rip, let's tear
." 
Was it the Heir?
I heard it say ...
"Beware
I'm mean ...
..Let me
kill you"
Give me will to
Ignore!

Forgive me if I start ...
Forgive me if I wince ...
First heard it with Lockhart
And, well ...
I've heard it ever since
.

    -	CMC

HARRY POTTER FILKS 
http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm 





From ellyn337 at earthlink.net  Fri Mar  5 02:45:19 2004
From: ellyn337 at earthlink.net (mclellyn)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 02:45:19 -0000
Subject: Snape NOT a Vampire (Was  The Marauders are all Gryffindors)
In-Reply-To: <c28ntc+tpvt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c28pjv+t21m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92147

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Diana_Sirius_fan" 
<siriuslove71 at y...> wrote:
>
Major Snip
 JKR said, "Erm..I don't think so" when asked if there was a 
> correlation between Snape and Vampires.  This is JKR speak we are 
> talking about.  The "Erm... I don't think so" is not saying ,"No, 
> Snape is not a Vampire." She still could be tricking us.  She is 
> saying she doesn't think so but that still leaves a little room 
> for "yes, he might me."  I will only take my hat off after book 7 
is 
> over and it concludes with Snape not being a vamp.  Up until then I 
> still think it is possible.   Diana

Gadfly McLellyn writes:

I'm with you Diana.  See page 640 of Order of the Phoenix (USA 
version) which says:  "Snape-the-teenager had a stringy, pallid look 
about him, like a plant kept in the dark".  Yet we know he goes 
outside in the sun.  If they can find a way to have a werewolf at 
school, why not a vampire?   A potion, perhaps, that does not let the 
sun through even when you are out in it?  

Draco is another candidate for Vampire.  He is always described as 
pale.  

Let the war begin!

Gadfly McLellyn





From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Fri Mar  5 03:09:10 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 03:09:10 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat
In-Reply-To: <c28j3l+mcfk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c28r0n+b79@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92148

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hp_lexicon" <steve at h...> 
wrote:
> I think it's highly unlikely to the point of silliness that 
Charlie 
> would still have been at Hogwarts when Harry arrived. They would 
> have met, plain and simple. No two ways about it. The Quidditch 
> conflicts just adds weight to the argument against Charlie being 
> there.

Susan:
I agree with this, Steve.  And, okay, I'm embarrassed to even ask 
this but, didn't Ron tell Harry in SS/PS that Bill & Charlie were 
off w/ Gringotts & studying dragons, respectively??  Or [eeeek!] is 
that movie contamination?  If he DID say it, then Charlie WASN'T 
still at Hogwarts in HRH's first year.  

Siriusly Snapey Susan







From swaine.t at xtra.co.nz  Fri Mar  5 03:12:16 2004
From: swaine.t at xtra.co.nz (Tanya Swaine)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 16:12:16 +1300
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape NOT a Vampire (Was  The
  Marauders are all Gryffindors)
In-Reply-To: <c28ntc+tpvt@eGroups.com>
References: <c27jli+tjp9@eGroups.com>
 <c28ntc+tpvt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20040305154126.0291bd50@pop3.xtra.co.nz>

No: HPFGUIDX 92149

At 15:16 5/03/2004, you wrote:

>Diana Wrote:
>
>JKR said, "Erm..I don't think so" when asked if there was a
>correlation between Snape and Vampires.  This is JKR speak we are
>talking about.  The "Erm... I don't think so" is not saying ,"No,
>Snape is not a Vampire." She still could be tricking us.  She is
>saying she doesn't think so but that still leaves a little room
>for "yes, he might me."  I will only take my hat off after book 7 is
>over and it concludes with Snape not being a vamp.  Up until then I
>still think it is possible.   Diana


Tanya now.

I'm on the fence with this one, undecided either way.  But I would of liked 
for the answer to be
a strong yes or no.  However, she could be unsure as to what a the link 
asked of in the question
could mean.  I'm not even sure myself.

Tanya 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From siriuslove71 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  5 03:29:51 2004
From: siriuslove71 at yahoo.com (Diana_Sirius_fan)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 03:29:51 -0000
Subject: Snape NOT a Vampire (Was  The Marauders are all Gryffindors)
In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20040305154126.0291bd50@pop3.xtra.co.nz>
Message-ID: <c28s7f+r49d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92150

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Tanya Swaine <swaine.t at x> wrote:
> At 15:16 5/03/2004, you wrote:
> 
> >Diana Wrote:
> >
> >JKR said, "Erm..I don't think so" when asked if there was a
> >correlation between Snape and Vampires.  This is JKR speak we are
> >talking about.  The "Erm... I don't think so" is not saying ,"No,
> >Snape is not a Vampire." She still could be tricking us.  She is
> >saying she doesn't think so but that still leaves a little room
> >for "yes, he might me."  I will only take my hat off after book 7 
is
> >over and it concludes with Snape not being a vamp.  Up until then I
> >still think it is possible.   Diana
> 
> 
> Tanya now.
> 
> I'm on the fence with this one, undecided either way.  But I would 
of liked 
> for the answer to be
> a strong yes or no.  However, she could be unsure as to what a the 
link 
> asked of in the question
> could mean.  I'm not even sure myself.
> 
> Tanya 
> 

Yes, I would have liked a clear cut answer also.  She easily could 
have said yes or no.  If she would have answered like she did some of 
the other questions it may have given too much away.  If she would 
have said, "Wait and see" then we would assume there was a 
connection.  If she would have said, "there is absolutely no 
connection between Snape and Vampires" then we would know there was 
not.  She answers it as "I don't think so" which is neither a yes or 
a no, so we can still think that maybe there is a connection.  I just 
do not see how others saw her answer as a "there is no way Snape is a 
Vampire" because that is not what was said.    Diana 





From kkearney at students.miami.edu  Fri Mar  5 03:53:26 2004
From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 03:53:26 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat
In-Reply-To: <c28r0n+b79@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c28tjm+tm69@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92151

Susan:

> And, okay, I'm embarrassed to even ask 
> this but, didn't Ron tell Harry in SS/PS that Bill & Charlie were 
> off w/ Gringotts & studying dragons, respectively??  Or [eeeek!] is 
> that movie contamination?  If he DID say it, then Charlie WASN'T 
> still at Hogwarts in HRH's first year.  


Nope, no movie contamination there.  

'Five,' said Ron... Bill and Charlie have already left..." (SS
paperback p. 99)

-Corinth




From melclaros at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  5 04:00:15 2004
From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 04:00:15 -0000
Subject: Snape NOT a Vampire (Was  The Marauders are all Gryffindors)
In-Reply-To: <c28s7f+r49d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c28u0f+siiv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92152

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Diana_Sirius_fan" 
<siriuslove71 at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Tanya Swaine <swaine.t at x> 
wrote:
> > At 15:16 5/03/2004, you wrote:
> > 
> > >Diana Wrote:
I will only take my hat off after book 7 
> is
> > >over and it concludes with Snape not being a vamp.  Up until 
then I
> > >still think it is possible.  > > 
> > 
> > Tanya now:
> > 
> > I'm on the fence with this one, undecided either way.  But I 
would 
> of liked 
> > for the answer to be
> > a strong yes or no.  However, she could be unsure as to what a 
the > link  > asked of in the question
> > could mean.  I'm not even sure myself.

then Diana
> 
>.  She answers it as "I don't think so" which is neither a yes or 
> a no, so we can still think that maybe there is a connection.  I 
just 
> do not see how others saw her answer as a "there is no way Snape 
is a 
> Vampire" because that is not what was said.    


Mel:
What was not said is exactly what you mentioned: "Wait and see" , "I 
can't tell you that", "I can't give that much away", "Keep reading 
and you'll find out more". She's pitifully transparent when she's 
trying to "hide" information.
So I guess unless she titles book 6 "Harry Potter Determines 
(Professor)Snape is Not a Vampire" some folks just won't give this a 
rest.

Rock on if it keeps you happy. 

Honestly, I wouldn't give 2 knuts for anything JKR said in any 
interview or chat but if someone forced me to choose what 
she "meant" here I'd have to go with the "sorry, no he's not" camp.
But then I've known that all along.

melpomene




From swaine.t at xtra.co.nz  Fri Mar  5 03:56:59 2004
From: swaine.t at xtra.co.nz (Tanya Swaine)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 16:56:59 +1300
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape NOT a Vampire (Was  The
  Marauders are all Gryffindors)
In-Reply-To: <c28s7f+r49d@eGroups.com>
References: <6.0.3.0.2.20040305154126.0291bd50@pop3.xtra.co.nz>
 <c28s7f+r49d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20040305165234.02928820@pop3.xtra.co.nz>

No: HPFGUIDX 92153

At 16:29 5/03/2004, you wrote:

Diana Wrote:

Yes, I would have liked a clear cut answer also.  She easily could
have said yes or no.  If she would have answered like she did some of
the other questions it may have given too much away.  If she would
have said, "Wait and see" then we would assume there was a
connection.  If she would have said, "there is absolutely no
connection between Snape and Vampires" then we would know there was
not.  She answers it as "I don't think so" which is neither a yes or
a no, so we can still think that maybe there is a connection.  I just
do not see how others saw her answer as a "there is no way Snape is a
Vampire" because that is not what was said.    Diana


Tanya again

Right, have been giving this some thought.  Firmly still on the fence.
However when the question asked was there a connection, it didn't ask
if he was one.  Now, I may have this wrong, but in my understanding
of English.  Connection could mean several things.  He has vampire
friends, or even one in his family.  I have trouble seeing as it
meaning he is connected yes or no, but being one or not.

Also, another question in the chat had JKR refusing to say about Snape's
patronus etc, as it was too much of a giveaway.  Now that is interesting.

Tanya 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From mongo62aa at yahoo.ca  Fri Mar  5 04:16:20 2004
From: mongo62aa at yahoo.ca (mongo62aa)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 04:16:20 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat:  Weasley Ages
In-Reply-To: <c28kdp+65ni@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c28uuk+t7l1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92154

justcarol67 wrote:

But even if Charlie did leave  a year early, he still, by JKR's 
calculations, would have been seventeen when Ron was eleven. Yet the 
Gryffindor team had last won the cup seven years before SS/PS--
meaning that it was won when Charlie was ten, before he even entered 
the school! Something isn't right here, and I think it's JKR's math 
(combined with a spur-of-the moment response). Clearly it's not 
something she's thought about. In other words, I agree with Debbie: 
It's a Flint and nothing but a Flint.

Me:

I have always thought that JKR messed up when she said that it had 
been seven years since the cup was won by Gryffindor.

I think that she had INTENDED to say that Charlie was seven years 
older than Ron, and had a mental stumble.  If that is what she 
meant, then the rest of the pieces fall into place nicely:  Ginny 
DOES remember Bill going to Hogwarts, etc.

Bill




From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu  Fri Mar  5 04:36:08 2004
From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 04:36:08 -0000
Subject: More on the chat
In-Reply-To: <c28aqi+ea4h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2903o+kbp4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92155

 "Geoff Bannister" <gbannister10 at a...> wrote:
>
> Having skimmed through some of the chat session (I shall be setling 
> down in bed for a good read before bye-byes later on)I was led to 
> wonder what sort of selection process was applied to the 16000 
> questions which JKR says were submitted because some of them were 
> totally useless in terms of finding things out about Harry. For 
> example....
> Anyone else share my irritation at this sort of bandwidth wasting?

--------
Hello!!! You could have asked as many questions as you liked just like I did!!  
She was not JUST chatting with kids.  There was a post (# 91994 by 
Entropymail) that gave everyone one of us the link to where we could submit 
all the questions we could dream up starting at 7pm CST.  I don't know about 
you but I sure as hell spent a good two hours thinking up questions that were 
unique, had a chance at being chosen and might help give us clues.  I 
probably submitted over 50 questions under more than one name (in case 
they only let one question per name--which was NOT the case--grrr!)  
Anywho....I got one question in and asked (Is Harry related to GG?) sure I got 
a non-commital answer but as is the case with JKR, that tells us something in 
that it's not a 'No' and for whatever reason, she wants that left unanswered 
for now.  So....don't complain about the questions when you could have done 
just as much as I did to try to saturate the question pool with good non-
moronic (did you know they ride brooms backwards?) questions!!  

Arya (Who's been smiling all day since she saw a question got through!)




From erikal at magma.ca  Fri Mar  5 05:48:32 2004
From: erikal at magma.ca (Erika L.)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 23:48:32 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What would you think if.....
Message-ID: <029c01c40275$7f2e81c0$208b1a40@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 92156

Jennifer Massey asked:

>What would you "feel" if JKR killed >Harry?


Merri replied:

>Harry sacrificing himself to the cause >of good would be a great way 
>to end the series. 
<snip>
>if he hangs on just long enough to say a >beautiful good bye to Ron and 
>Hermione and Hagrid, if he fades away >seeing a light in front of 
>him, and is welcomed into the WW version >of an afterlife by his long 
>lost mum, dad and godfather for an >eternity of familial bonding, 
>then I will probably have to be scraped >off the ceiling I will be so 
>happy. But that's just me. 


Carol said:

>(I emphatically don't want him
>to use Avada Kedavra or any other >Unforgiveable Curse. I do want him
>to use his wits and his courage and to >survive.)

>So how would I feel if JKR killed Harry? >Betrayed! She'd be Wormtail
>in my book.

Alla said:
>Oh, yes. I don't know about betrayed, >but I most certainly will be 
>dissappointed. I want the good guys win >and I want Harry to have some 
>kind of normal happy life without Voldy >thing breating over his 
>shoulder all the time. :o)


I have to go with Carol and Alla on this one. I would be very upset were Harry to die at the end of the series. I simply cannot agree that Harry's death, even if that means reunion with his family and an end to his suffering, as Merri suggested, can in any way constitute a happy ending, or even a fully satisfying ending.

Merri said: 
>Harry sacrificing himself to the cause >of good would be a great way 
>to end the series. Then at the least we >fans will be assured that he 
>won't be suffering anymore, and is >finally in for a little peace.

I can't agree with this at all. It's too easy. I think the books have made it clear that suffering is a part of life. And Harry does not have the monopoly on suffering. Lupin, Sirius and Neville come to mind as other characters who've had to deal with forms of suffering such as grief, loss, betrayal, physical harship, and so on. One can argue about the  degree to which any of them suffer, but to say that death is okay because it constitutes an end to a character's suffering, is a denial of life itself. I want to see Harry have a chance at being happy in _this_ life before he goes on to be happy in the next.

    After all, isn't part of the tragedy of Sirius' death that he missed out on so much of his life? He spent at least a third of it in Azkaban for a crime he didn't commit. No sooner does he get out than he gets killed. To me, Harry's demise would be equally tragic since he's had even less opportunity to enjoy life. He spent a decade in a closet suffering physical and emotional abuse and deprivation-- not too different from the situation Sirius is in during those years come to think of it. Yes, Harry's had some fun at Hogwarts, but he's also had to spend a lot of time just trying to keep himself in one piece. I think Harry's been surviving far more than he's been living. If he defeats Voldemort I think he may then have a real shot at life. Yes, he'll always carry a burden of grief and pain, but I still think life has enough to offer Harry to make that burden worth bearing. So no I would not be satisfied with Harry making a grandiose self-sacrificial exit. Instead, I would feel cheated. I want to see him _live_ before he dies.

Just my two knuts
Erika (Wolfraven)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Fri Mar  5 05:15:46 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 05:15:46 -0000
Subject: Some questions (JKR's chat)--Quidditch captain
In-Reply-To: <c28eem+rv4b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c292e2+fttj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92157

*bibwhang: Will Ron ever get on the Gryffindor quidditch team?
JK Rowling replies -> Well, he's already there! The question is,
whether the new Quidditch Captain will allow him to stay!
 
Iris:
BIG SNIP>
And who will be the new Quidditch Captain? Quidditch could be an 
important narrative resort in the next book.

Susan:
Something in JKR's humorous reply made me think that maybe GINNY 
would be the new captain.  I know that makes no real sense, but 
wouldn't it be just like a little sister to consider NOT letting her 
big brother be on the team? :-)
 
Siriusly Snapey Susan

Sue:
When I read this reply, I thought immediately that Ron would be 
captain.  It seemed to fit her sense of humor also, as Ron is 
constantly thinking he should quit.  I can just hear him saying he is 
going to fire himself.

finally some answers, but still so many questions....




From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Fri Mar  5 05:30:29 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 05:30:29 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat- Sirius Black
In-Reply-To: <c28ibs+cig3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2939l+91ac@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92158

oldone:
 
Ok we know Sirius' body probabily won't return but,... his 
reflection giving advice through the mirror? 
Maybe. We have seen mirrors that talk and give advice, but their 
kind of advice is usually limited to "Tuck in your shirt, scruffy."

I think Sirius might very well return in the form of a portrait. I'm 
guessing that a wizarding portrait would have had to have been 
painted before the subject died, but since Sirius is from a rich 
family, I can easily imagine that there's a portrait of him laying 
around Grimmauld Place somewhere, probably under a heap of junk in 
the attic or something. We have seen portraits not only give advice 
but actually run errands for the living. Perhaps all that needs to 
happen is for that old portrait to be "developed" in potions, kind 
of like a photograph.
 
 Steve
Lexicon-ing tonight.

This is what I think as well.  I am also curius about the portrait of 
Harry that Dobby painted.  After Harry opened it we never heard about 
it again.  Was it left at Grimauld Place?  Maybe in the same musty 
attic pile as an old portrait of Sirius? We know now for sure that 
house elves have powers wizards do not.  
Sue




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  5 06:19:56 2004
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 06:19:56 -0000
Subject: JKR CHAT: Sirius and the Mirror
Message-ID: <c2966c+bfnt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92159

K Rowling made some comments about Sirius in the recent chat. Sorry to
say that I think some people are taking this information to extreme
and in my opinion unlikely conclusions.

************************************
Will the two way mirror Sirius gave Harry ever show up again?
JK Rowling replies -> Ooooo good question. There's your answer.

If we ever see Sirius again, what form will he be in?
JK Rowling replies -> I couldn't possibly answer that for fear of
incriminating myself.
************************************

We could interpret this as JKR simply saying 'no comment'. That
doesn't mean Sirius will come back, and equally doesn't mean he won't.

However, if he does re-appear in the story, that doesn't mean he will
literally come back from the dead. We have seen James Potter appear in
the story several times, in Snape's worst memory, for example. But
while he came back into the story, he did not come back from the dead. 

Any re-appearance of Sirius could be in the same vein. In fact, I
would almost guarantee that Sirius will re-appear in the form of
memories whether they are in narrative, recollection, or in the Pensieve. 

One additional possiblilty is that Harry will able to communicate
BRIEFLY with Sirius by talking to him through the Veil in the Chamber
of Death. Keep in mind that someone now in the realm of the dead, has
much different priorities that someone amoung the living. Petty fears
and earthly desires mean very little to the ones who live in perfect
peace and tranquility beyond the veil.

Other than involving someone like Trelawney, I see this as the only
way to communcate with the dead. I also see it as a sufficiently
limited way of communicating with Sirius as to not disturb the story
significantly, and as not opening unresolvable plot holes. 

A greater, more exciting, but much less likely possibility is that, as
many have predicted, the story will require Harry to travel 'beyond
the veil'. That's not that uncommon a theme in mythology/fantasy. 

So, my point is that Sirius does not have to return from the dead in
order for him to return to the story. And, I take JKR's comment to
mean nothing more than the possibility that Sirius will return to the
story. Perhaps there will be some revelation in Sirius's backstory
that will be helpful to Harry.

Now, on to the mirror; my feelings are the same, the mirror will
return to the story, nothing more. It's a handy device just like the
Cloak and the Map. The Order now knows that failing to keep Harry
informed and failing to give him a fast easy effective method of
communication is very much to everyone's detriment. 

Whether the matching mirror, or the mirror's counterpart, will be at
the Order's headquarters, or whether Hermione will simply create a
matching set of mirrors is difficult to say. But the re-appearance of
the mirror in no way confirms, or in my opinion implies, comminication
with Sirius; it merely says that in the future, Harry will use it as a
handy communication device.

One devilish advantage JKR has in this type of interview is that she
can deny the person asking a question any kind of dialog. It's
Question then Answer, but no room or time for debate, discussion, or
any kind of follow up. Certainly, if there had been the opportunity
for discussion and follow up, she would have been force to correct her
mistake about Percy's age relative to Charlie. For someone who is
engaged in 'mystery', this format is very well suited to her needs.

Just a few thoughts.

bboy_mn




From molly at elizabethjewelry.com  Fri Mar  5 06:49:36 2004
From: molly at elizabethjewelry.com (Molly Rahe)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 06:49:36 -0000
Subject: Weasleys Ages-The last and final post you will ever need
Message-ID: <c297u0+8chv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92160

O.K. Folks! I made a post at 6.30 a.m. this morning and yes, it was
129 posts ago, and most of you don't have the time to slog through
every message since the chat, so I thought I would recap what I said.

Every fact is founded in canon or an actual quote from J.K.R. herself.

People, we have a flint.
We can not guess as to weather or not Charlie left school early or if
there was no quidditch finals those years. When looking objectively at
the facts given to us, by the books and by J.K.R., we have to come to
the conclusion that there is a definate discrepency.

Fact One:
Bill is in his late twenties in GoF. from past interview with J.K.R.
late twenties are anything after 26. So he is at least 27 in GoF.
Charlie has won the quidditch cup for gryffindor seven years before
Ron enters Hogwarts, making him either 23 or 24 when Ron enters Hogwarts.
 Charlie would then be either 27 or 28 in OotP.
In this new interview, she has the boys ages spaced out every two
years. So in OotP, Bill is most likely 29 or 30

Then we get to Percy. It is fact that Bill is the age he is by a quote
from J.K.R. herself, and that Charlie is two years younger. It all
fits too with all the book canon.

But Percy, whew! This is the Flint. He is only 19-20 by book canon
(OotP).So how can J.K.R. call him only two years younger than Charlie,
who she established as two years younger than Bill, Who she stated in
an interview as being at least 29 or 30 in OotP.

I smell a flint. Either statement she made could be wrong. The book
could be wrong, althought, as it is published, this is all jsut
speculative. The whole thing is so very wrong. She either is
deliberatly lying to us (GASP!) or she made a boo-boo. A flint.

The original post is below. It is a bit different than this one as I
worked the exact ages out better here. But it is the same.









Posted at 6.30 in the morning after being up all night for the 4:00
a.m. chat




"O.K. I am realy at a loss here. It seems our beloved author has made a
small error, or someone please point me in the right directing. I am
getting all my info from interviews found on The Lexicon and the books

According to JKR herself, Bill is at least 28 in book 5. Charlie is at
least 14 years older than Harry, because it had been 7 years since
Charlie has been in school by the time Harry arrived (the not winning
a quidditch cup since Charlie thing). In this new interview, she
states that there is two years between the boys. So according to both
of her interviews;
When Harry is 11, Charlie is least 25.
Bill would be 27, as he has to be two years older than Charlie
When oOtP comes about, Charlie is about 29. Bill is 31.
However, in this interview, she has Percy being only two years younger
than Charlie, making him 27, which he is most definatly not.
Oh! Thats it, this is way to contradicting for me! I need help!

(Its only peoples ages Molly, get a grip!)"




From jujupoet29 at hotmail.com  Fri Mar  5 07:07:01 2004
From: jujupoet29 at hotmail.com (sienna291973)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 07:07:01 -0000
Subject: JK's latest revelations
In-Reply-To: <c2737h+8csq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c298ul+jjhv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92161

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nzcate" <nzcate at h...> wrote:

> 3) "Assuming he lives"...Ron has a future outside school ???!! 
> (hoping she's teasing here!)

Hi guys, also delurking to point something out that I just picked up 
on (I'm hoping it hasn't been mentioned, but if it has been then I 
offer my sincere apologies).

In the chat, JKR mentioned that Ron's middle name is Bilius. I was 
trying to figure out where I had heard that name before and went 
back to POA:

'Hermione, if Harry's seen a Grim, that's - that's bad,' he 
said. 'My - my Uncle Bilius saw one and - and he died twenty-four 
hours later!'
POA, pg 85

She... she wouldn't... would she? That's not a clue is it?  Is it?? 
(*crickets*)

Sienna
(Who hopes very much that this was just a 'Coincidence' as Hermione 
would say)





From yswahl at stis.net  Fri Mar  5 07:18:13 2004
From: yswahl at stis.net (samnanya)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 07:18:13 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat - What was not said - I - Harry's Departure from Privet Drive
Message-ID: <c299jl+3s2e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92162

Adele - Will poor Harry be stuck at the Dursley's all next summer
JKR - Not all summer, no. In fact, he has the shortest stay in Privet 
Drive so far.

Samnanya
Which to me means that he must leave before his 16th birthday (In SS 
he leaves with Dursleys 2 days before his 11th Birthday)
Hmmmm wonder WHY he leaves and abandons protection that staying in 
Privet Drive provides, especially considering that the Second War has 
begun.  
Of course this will get Book Six off to a rocking start long before 
the next Hogwarts term begins....
I also was intrigued that neither Luna Lovegood nor the twins came up 
at all in the interview. I have always felt that Luna will be very 
VERY significant in book 6 - especially considering that she is still 
probably at Hogwarts at the start of the summer {would love to see 
JKR's answer to that one...)
   








From yswahl at stis.net  Fri Mar  5 07:45:22 2004
From: yswahl at stis.net (samnanya)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 07:45:22 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat - What was not said - II -  SHIP ALERT - HH
Message-ID: <c29b6i+qh70@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92163

Hermione 3 - will Harry and Hermione will be together ? {sigh}
JKR - lol Not saying .... but you've had enough clues by now, surely?!

Samnanya
JKR sounds like the answer is yes - and there have been many clues to 
support this - I have mentioned several clues in previous posts, but 
there is no denying that Hermione does care deeply for Harry, and 
though not as obvious or overt, Harry cares for Hermione as well. 
That said, i don't think that anything beyond friendship will develop 
before the end of book six at the earliest - and from the question 
asked to JKR just prior to this one, there is still one more person 
for Harry to "get involved with"  before he can properly deal with 
Hermione.
I still think that JKR's primary influence {among many others} is The 
Little White Horse by Elizabeth Goudge and, after reading that book, 
and in light of the sparse crumbs {not Viktor} that JKR tosses us in 
her interviews, feel most strongly that HH is what will ultimately 
happen.





From gbannister10 at aol.com  Fri Mar  5 07:49:03 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 07:49:03 -0000
Subject: More on the chat
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20040305011809.05a01bd0@pop3.norton.antivirus>
Message-ID: <c29bdf+59bj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92164

Geoff:
> >Perhaps my stress levels are gradualyl beginning to rise as I 
await Book 6.

 
Troels:
> Ouch! That's early. Reread the series a few times to get more 
calm ...


Geoff:
I have read the series six or seven times already......
:-)


Troels:
> There were definitely a few of the questions that I thought were 
utterly
> indifferent or which had been answered a hundred times before
> ("advice to a wannabe author" ...)
> 
> It's not so much that people ask them - I don't suppose we should
> expect kids to ask only questions we would like to know the answers 
to,
> but I certainly think they could have screened the questions better.

Geoff:
Which reiterates my original point exactly.....

What is far more useful is when a question and its answer either 
underpins a theory which is floating around or puts it in dry dock 
out of the way (Snape as a vampire for example) or puts a bit more 
information into the public domain. 




From gbannister10 at aol.com  Fri Mar  5 07:57:06 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 07:57:06 -0000
Subject: More on the chat
In-Reply-To: <c28i4a+cppg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c29bsi+d3p7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92165

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sydorov47" <sydorov47 at y...> 
wrote:
 
> Common! 

Geoff:
Common? I don't follow I'm afraid?

sydorov47:
She was chatting with kids, not being interrogated by Special 
> Chamber Of Fans High Commision. :-)

Geoff:
In my church work, I deal a lot with young people between 11 and 16. 
You might be surprised at the depth of interest and understanding 
that is shown by many of them in the plot lines. Some of them would 
be worthy members of this group. 

Young people (sorry, many of them don't like being called kids) 
nowadays are very perceptive. For example, I've had a far more in-
depth discussion with a couple of 13 year old boys at our youth group 
over LOTR than with a lot of adults.




From yswahl at stis.net  Fri Mar  5 08:04:50 2004
From: yswahl at stis.net (samnanya)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 08:04:50 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat - What was not said - III -  Remus as Half Blood
Message-ID: <c29cb2+v6km@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92166

Siriusstar - Is Remus a pureblood?
JKR - Half blood.

Samnanya
Hmmmm .... that puts Remus in the same category as Harry and Voldemort 
- and Tonks. Very interesting company. All of these characters have 
powerful abilities, none seems to be as they appear, and all but Harry 
{so far} can and have changed forms. I am not sure what theories this 
revealation will lead to but Evil!Lupin can definitely not be ruled 
out imho. Tonks is a wild card at this point.




From yswahl at stis.net  Fri Mar  5 09:02:55 2004
From: yswahl at stis.net (samnanya)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 09:02:55 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat - What was not said - IV -   RIP Ron
Message-ID: <c29fnv+p1bq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92167

Debbie - What will Ron's job be when he leaves school?
JKR - Well, assuming he lives to leave school .........
I'm not going to tell you :)

Samnanya
Well I for one wouldn't buy an annuity if I were Ron.
Since a full scale war is now breaking out in the Wizarding world, I 
started thinking who might survive and who might not, and what 
possible criteria JKR might use to play God here. Since I do not have 
Rita Skeeterish abilities to hang out as a beetle in her officeand 
look over her shoulder as she types, I can only guess, of course, but 
i was really puzzled as to why Ron might die. I mean what sin has Ron 
ever committed? 

Then i thought about the 7 Deadly Sins .... and then it hit me --- an 
obvious "sin" since book 
1 -- gluttony. Throughout the series, JKR rarely misses an
opportunity 
to describes Rons eating excesses - most recently in the last chapter 
of OOP. In fact, chocolate frogs are nearing extinction due to his 
prodigious appetite.
In thinking of the 7 deadly sins, I then tried to figure which of the 
"good guys" either succumbed or was in danger of succumbing, and what 
their moral shortcomings were and I arrived at the following......

Pride - Gilderoy Lockhart (not dead but not all there either)
Greed - Ludo Bagman (i'd give 50 to 1 against his surviving)
Anger - Hagrid
Gluttony - Ron
Sloth - Mundungus (he just seems to be the definitive slothy type)
Envy - Fudge (envious of Dumbledore's power and prestige)
Lust - hmmmmm..... Bill Weasley and the EEEEEnglish lessons?

Only Cedric was truly innocent, and he died because he strayed across 
the path of the dark lord.....
Just a theory, but I wonder.........  
 





From Elvishooked at hotmail.com  Fri Mar  5 09:06:16 2004
From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 09:06:16 -0000
Subject: Questions that did NOT get answered...
In-Reply-To: <c28mk4+go93@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c29fu8+ai3o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92168

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, gsanderson at c... wrote:
>>> With 16,000 submitted, I'm guessing that most questions got 
asked, 
but here's a list of burning questions that did NOT get answered.
What affect does Lucius Malfoy's generous donations have on St. 
Mungos?
Will the Longbottoms recover now that Lucius isn't around to make 
his "donations"?
What can you tell us about next year's DADA teacher?
Was there anyone with LV when he attacked the Potters?
Will we find out the extent of Petunia's knowledge of the wizarding 
world?
[I'm so glad we'll find out about Dudley's worst memory!]
Is Dumbledore's brother the owner of the Hog's Head?
Is Mark Evans related to Harry?
If Harry does magic with one Phoenix feather in his wand, can he do 
even more powerful things in conjunction with Fawkes?  
Will Harry master Occlumency?<<<

Inge:
Personally Im glad none of these question were asked (and answered) 
on the chat. Dang - if we have all the answers given to us there will 
be no reason to read the next 2 books and nothing left to speculate 
on.
I didn't really want to read the transcript of the chat because I was 
afraid she might give away answers that I didn't want to know until 
reading them my self in the next books....
Of course I did read the transcript after all but now I wish I 
hadn't. I didn't need the information of Snape probably not being a 
vampire or the information that Regulus is actually dead. (etc.)
The reason I love these books are the huge surprises Rowling present 
in them that we didn't figure out before.

Guess I wont be reading any more questions/answers until the last 
book is out and read. By THEN Im sure there will be lots of questions 
to ask and I really hope Rowling will come up with the answers then :)




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Fri Mar  5 09:52:14 2004
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 09:52:14 -0000
Subject: Chat response  (motorbike/Ginny's and Molly's names)
In-Reply-To: <c27im1+nu36@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c29ike+gjhr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92169

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" <stevejjen at e...> 
wrote:
> 
> Jen: That was my first thought, too--the bike's in the Forbidden 
> Forest. JKR said 'real sleuths' among us would be able to guess. 
> Well, what clues do we have? Just that Hagrid was the last one in 
> possession of the bike. Or the last person we see with it. It makes 
> sense he took the motorbike back to Hogwarts.
> 
> 
> Eloise:
> Either that, or 
> > it returned to its enchanter. Now who do we know who just might 
> enchant a 
> > motorbike to fly? Could it be stashed away in an outbuilding at 
> the Weasleys', 
> > out of Molly's sight?
> 
> Jen: Or somehow the bike got sent to Arthur's department 
> for 'disposal' so he just took it home to tinker with it. I like 
> this theory better than the Forbidden Forest because it fits in so 
> well with Arthur's character. Seems strange none of the kids would 
> have found it by now,though, 15+ years later.


Just had a bright (?) idea: what if it's inside the Flying Ford 
Anglia? I.e., Arthur ripped out the car's engine and stuck in 
(somehow) the engine and/or other parts of the motorbyke?

Naama, the technically challenged?




From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Fri Mar  5 10:07:22 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 10:07:22 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat  "The Crucial and Central Question"
In-Reply-To: <c285a6+llf8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c29jgq+pt36@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92170

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" <nkafkafi at y...> wrote:
>> I don't wholly agree with you there. Harry's decision in SS/PS to go 
> and find the stone before LV does was a very conscious decision. He 
> could have just ignored it as Ron and Hermione were inclined to. And 
> in CoS he actively goes with Ron to the quest of saving Ginny's life, 
> when he already knows about the basilisk part, at least. In fact
> (since you have already raised the knight/paladin theme) I think the 
> resolution of CoS is very chivalry/fairytale: The evil wizard puts an 
> enchanted sleep on the innocent maiden and drags her to his secret 
> fortress. Our knight (with his loyal companion) goes through riddles 
> and dungeons to find the fortress, gets three presents (a bird, a hat 
> and a sword) from the good magician, uses the sword to kill the 
> guardian monster, and then finds where the heart of the evil wizard 
> is hidden and destroys him. Practically the only element JKR left out 
> is for our hero to wake the maiden with a kiss. Well, that would have 
> been slightly overdoing it, as they are only 12 and 11 at the time.
> 

Well, it depends  on how you look at it.

You yourself point out  that he tried to get to the Stone *before* Voldy's
agent (who he presumed to be Snape). When they found that someone 
had already got past Fluffy did they  stop to consider just what  they
might be getting into? No. Not a thought of who or what might be
waiting for them down there. So Harry ends up in a situation that he
hadn't planned for and only his in-built 'protection' (which he didn't
know existed) saved his skin. And if  it had been Snape, how would
Harry have fared then? His Voldy-proofing would have been of no
use at all.

Similarly with the Chamber. Does  Harry consider before-hand how
he will deal with the Basilisk if he meets it? No. In fact he seems to
dismiss that possibility entirely from his mind. Without Fawkes
he would have been toast. A deus ex machina saves him again.

Oh, Harry means well. A damning phrase. Often his actions are
determined by his own set of personal loyalties, to  his friends, to
his parents - all very laudable, understandable and to be applauded
but this is not the same as a crusade against evil in general. He has 
a tendency to rush off in a fit of adolescent enthusiasm, knowing only
half the story and without considering what he might be getting into. 
Consequently, what he  gets into is trouble that needs the intervention
of a force or device that somehow saves him from the consequences 
of his own actions. 

Of course, this is what gives the stories flavour, but it is only now, at
the end of the 5th book, that he is able to put his past exploits into
some sort of perspective. He hasn't chosen his side, it has been
chosen for him. Now he has to decide what to do about it. He's not
exactly enthusiastic about the idea. He may yet rebel.

Kneasy




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Fri Mar  5 10:15:05 2004
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 10:15:05 -0000
Subject: Next Minister (was Re: My fav Q and A from todays chat w/ JKR
In-Reply-To: <c27n3u+frg6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c29jv9+ke5a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92171

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Arya" <dequardo at w...> wrote:
> "maneelyfh" <maneelyfh at y...> wrote:
> miggs: Is there going to be a new minister of magic in the next 
books?
> JK Rowling replies -> Yes. Ha! Finally, a concrete bit of 
> information, I hear you cry!
> 
> hope this means Arthur is getting his due.  Also, hope it indicates 
> that Fudge is in fact a DE as I have theorized!
> ----------------
> ARYA NOW:  Don't you think someone like Amelia Bones is much more 
> likely to make the jump to MoM?  I mean Arthur is only the head of 
> very small (two-man) department...
> -------------

I think you are not taking into consideration the political upheaval 
that will occur in the WW. After a year's smirch campaign against DD 
and Harry, clearly directed by Fudge, it turns out - dramatically - 
that DD was right all along. He is now in the position of Churchill 
at the start of WW II. He had warned his people against a danger 
nobody wanted to hear about, withstanding a tremendously hostile 
public opinion, and he is now vindicated. Like Churchill, he will now 
be viewed as the people's true defender and champion, and they will 
turn to him now with a new found, and even greater, trust. So, I am 
sure that for the next books, DD will return to his former position 
as the WW's great leader. There will also be, of course, be a general 
revulsion at the present MoM leadership - Fudge certainly, but also 
those who supported him. There will probably be another plea for DD 
to become Minister for Magic, which I assume he will refuse. But 
people will still want somebody who is *not* from the present MoM 
leading group, preferably one of the few who stuck by DD during the 
last year. Arthur Weasly fits the bill perfectly. And, don't forget, 
he is a Weasly - a highly respected and influential family (this was 
made clear by DD at the end of CoS). So, he will be seen as a natural 
candidate from that respect.


Naama




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Fri Mar  5 10:28:26 2004
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 10:28:26 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Harry and Hermione together per JKR chat?
In-Reply-To: <c28168+ui59@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c29koa+n3kk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92172

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" <jferer at y...> wrote:
<snip> 
> My idea of "clues" is what we see of the developing personalities 
and
> relationships, not in a tiny cue here and a tiny cue there. Seen in
> the thematic way, I see Harry and Hermione growing closer and closer
> all the time; Harry identifying with the way Hermione thinks and
> hearing her voice inside; Hermione knowing just what Harry needs and
> exerting herself for it with intelligence and even ruthlessness if
> needed.  Now, a close friend would do the same, maybe, but I believe
> this is more, or will be more as time goes on.
> 
> I've always believed that JKR's clues are under the skins of the
> characters, not in chopping up tiny patches of text like tax 
lawyers.
>    Skyscrapers built on the head of a pin don't generally stand up.

I see her answer differently (of course, I'm a solid, can't-be-
shaken, R/H-er <g>). The only romantic clues that have appeared in 
the books ar of Ron's feelings for Hermione. I think we all agree on 
that, right? So, going by that, I interprete her answer as pointing 
to a possible Ron/Hermione romance. There are certainly no clues to a 
romantic attachment happening between Harry and Hermione.


Naama




From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Fri Mar  5 10:42:08 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 10:42:08 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat- Sirius Black
In-Reply-To: <c282ch+cp7s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c29li0+fr1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92173

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "antoshachekhonte" <antoshachekhonte at y...> 
wrote:
> Kneasy:
> 
> > I  have to admit that I was surprised that there were hints about
> > the broken mirror in the chat. Not what I expected at all. Even so,
> > my favoured medium for seeing more of Sirius is the Pensieve.
> > That way we might get some answers to some critical questions.
> 
> 
> But... the pensieve only allows for the examination of memory, yes? You don't get to 
> interact/converse with folks when you're in a pensieve, so what new insight could Harry 
> gain from Sirius thereby???


I  wasn't  thinking about getting insights *from* Sirius, but *about*
Sirius. I'd prefer information that helps to explain why things are
the way they are rather than JKR's frustrating habit of never
finishing a conversation when someone is just starting to ask the
right questions.

JKR told us  that we will find out more about the Snape-Sirius feud
perhaps other things as well. Wasn't there a hint that the 'Prank' 
wasn't the only bit of history they had? Maybe those other memories
Snape deposited into the Pensieve are significant.

And it might be a mistake to conclude that only the Marauders and
Snape have relevant information. Lots of wizards out there that must
know a lot of things. For instance - anyone know if Bagman was at
Hogwarts at the same time as the others? Bet he could tell a tale or two.
And Rita? Hoo! What could she tell us? All sorts of background  stuff,
I'll bet. Endless vistas  of speculation open up bbefore me.

Kneasy




From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Fri Mar  5 10:54:09 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 10:54:09 -0000
Subject: Shake-up at the Ministry
In-Reply-To: <cd.6bb4971.2d793a58@aol.com>
Message-ID: <c29m8h+h682@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92174

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, BrwNeil at a... wrote:

> This is why I don't bet on horse races because I'd probably lose the family 
> home, but my money is definitely on AW.  Too often has JKR emphasized his lowly 
> ministry position and his lack of money.  What greater slap in the face to 
> Percy could there be than the father he rejected becoming MoM.
> 
> The clincher is that JKR always has Hermione being right except when excited 
> and Ron always being wrong except when joking.  Ron joked about Gryffindor 
> having as much chance of wining the Quidditch cup as his dad becoming MoM.  
> Gryffindor won and so will the long shot Weasley.
> 

I agree with you but for slightly different reasons.

Two  clues from the chat can be tied to gether:
1. There is a new Minister
2. The Muggle world is starting to notice things.

This is likely  to cause problems for the Ministry.
Somebody will  have to take charge and sort  it out.
OK, who is the MoM expert on Muggles? Arthur.

Weasleys triumphant!

Kneasy




From nkafkafi at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  5 12:03:33 2004
From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 12:03:33 -0000
Subject: Shake-up at the Ministry
In-Reply-To: <c29m8h+h682@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c29qal+1kfn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92175

BrwNeil at a... wrote:
> 
> > This is why I don't bet on horse races because I'd probably lose 
the family 
> > home, but my money is definitely on AW.  Too often has JKR 
emphasized his lowly 
> > ministry position and his lack of money.  What greater slap in 
the face to 
> > Percy could there be than the father he rejected becoming MoM.
> > 
> > The clincher is that JKR always has Hermione being right except 
when excited 
> > and Ron always being wrong except when joking.  Ron joked about 
Gryffindor 
> > having as much chance of wining the Quidditch cup as his dad 
becoming MoM.  
> > Gryffindor won and so will the long shot Weasley.
> > 

Kneasy wrote
> 
> I agree with you but for slightly different reasons.
> 
> Two  clues from the chat can be tied to gether:
> 1. There is a new Minister
> 2. The Muggle world is starting to notice things.
> 
> This is likely  to cause problems for the Ministry.
> Somebody will  have to take charge and sort  it out.
> OK, who is the MoM expert on Muggles? Arthur.
> 
> Weasleys triumphant!

Neri:
My vote is for AW for a single reason: I want to see the expression 
on Percy's face (or at least read JKR's description of it) when he 
finds out. I think this reason is as good as any.

Besides, anyone who has managed, with very meager budget, to navigate 
such a large and dynamic family to safe water and good chances for 
future (if not present) prosperity must be a good Minister. Yes, I 
know it was Molly who was doing the actual organizing, but this is 
exactly the mark of a good Minister: He doesn't try to manage things 
himself. He gives the good administrators free rein and then people 
give him the credit for the good results. It is, however, the 
Minister's job to set policies and priorities, and we know one thing 
for sure: under AW the tax payers' money (oops, I mean gold) will go 
to better education, not fancy fountains.

Neri 




From joj at rochester.rr.com  Fri Mar  5 12:25:26 2004
From: joj at rochester.rr.com (coolbeans3131)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 12:25:26 -0000
Subject: More on the chat
In-Reply-To: <c28aqi+ea4h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c29rjm+r9gv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92176

"Geoff Bannister"  wrote:

> Having skimmed through some of the chat session (I shall be setling 
> down in bed for a good read before bye-byes later on)I was led to 
> wonder what sort of selection process was applied to the 16000 
> questions which JKR says were submitted because some of them were 
> totally useless in terms of finding things out about Harry.  
> 
> 
> Anyone else share my irritation at this sort of bandwidth wasting?

Well, we don't live in a perfect world.  I think it's unrealistic to 
think that every single question (and there were alot) would be 
considered a good question by HPFGU's standards.  There are many many 
fans who don't dissect the books to death like we do here. 

 I thought there were very few horrible questions.  If there had only 
been 10, as I originally thought, that would be one thing.  She also 
gave more answers than I thought she would.  

For instance:

"Shannon from St Mary Magdalen's Junior School - London: How do you 
feel when you see children reading your books? *Schools Competition 
Winner*
JK Rowling replies -> I feel incredibly proud. Sometimes I want to 
poke them in the back and say 'guess who?' but I restrain myself."

We didn't learn any new canon here, but I loved the way she answered 
it.  That was not a waste of a question as far as I'm concerned.

Joj




From joj at rochester.rr.com  Fri Mar  5 12:32:55 2004
From: joj at rochester.rr.com (coolbeans3131)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 12:32:55 -0000
Subject: Some questions (JKR's chat)--Quidditch captain
In-Reply-To: <c292e2+fttj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c29s1n+4g8f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92177

 
> Sue said:
> When I read this reply, I thought immediately that Ron would be 
> captain.  It seemed to fit her sense of humor also, as Ron is 
> constantly thinking he should quit.  I can just hear him saying he 
is 
> going to fire himself.

Joj says:
Don't you think it would be very insulting to Harry? He has played 
very well, and will be on the team for the sixth year. Then to have 
someone who's on their second year and has only played one good game, 
after the previous lousy games, be his captain?  

Harry didn't get to be prefect, but he does deserve to be Quidditch 
captain, unless of course, he doesn't want to be. 

Joj




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Fri Mar  5 12:49:59 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 12:49:59 -0000
Subject: He's dead, Jim...
Message-ID: <c29t1n+hbqn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92178

When asked about Regulus, JKR said, "Well, he's dead, so he's pretty 
quiet these days."

I'm not as experienced with the sleuthing and interpreting JKR talk 
as many of you are, but the "he's pretty quiet these days" seemed to 
contradict the "he's dead" part.  That is, the world thinks he's dead 
and that's his cover.  So I'm not entirely convinced that Stubby 
Boardman won't turn out to be Sirius' quiet brother. Anyone else?

A post a long time ago mentioned visualizing the actor Stubby Kay for 
Stubby Boardman.  I do the same thing! (But I didn't recognize him 
until I read the post!) 

Potioncat




From maneelyfh at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  5 12:58:59 2004
From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 12:58:59 -0000
Subject: Shake-up at the Ministry
In-Reply-To: <c29qal+1kfn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c29tij+1022a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92179

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" <nkafkafi at y...> 
wrote:
> BrwNeil at a... wrote:
> > 
> > > This is why I don't bet on horse races because I'd probably 
lose 
> the family 
> > > home, but my money is definitely on AW.  Too often has JKR 
> emphasized his lowly 
> > > ministry position and his lack of money.  What greater slap in 
> the face to 
> > > Percy could there be than the father he rejected becoming MoM.
> > > 
> > > The clincher is that JKR always has Hermione being right except 
> when excited 
> > > and Ron always being wrong except when joking.  Ron joked about 
> Gryffindor 
> > > having as much chance of wining the Quidditch cup as his dad 
> becoming MoM.  
> > > Gryffindor won and so will the long shot Weasley.
> > > 
> 
> Kneasy wrote
> > 
> > I agree with you but for slightly different reasons.
> > 
> > Two  clues from the chat can be tied to gether:
> > 1. There is a new Minister
> > 2. The Muggle world is starting to notice things.
> > 
> > This is likely  to cause problems for the Ministry.
> > Somebody will  have to take charge and sort  it out.
> > OK, who is the MoM expert on Muggles? Arthur.
> > 
> > Weasleys triumphant!
> 
> Neri:
> My vote is for AW for a single reason: I want to see the expression 
> on Percy's face (or at least read JKR's description of it) when he 
> finds out. I think this reason is as good as any.
> 
> Besides, anyone who has managed, with very meager budget, to 
navigate 
> such a large and dynamic family to safe water and good chances for 
> future (if not present) prosperity must be a good Minister. > 
> Neri

So what acronym can we come up with for this? W.I.N Weasley is 
Next...? Sorry not very good with these things. If he does not get 
the MOM position, at least he should get a promotion. The reason I am 
in this camp is Ron's joking comment, and in my heart I want him to 
succeed!
Fran




From sophierom at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  5 13:14:56 2004
From: sophierom at yahoo.com (sophierom)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 13:14:56 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat and Sirius' Death
In-Reply-To: <c28gum+1kfc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c29ugg+7b3t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92180

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "karenlyall666" 
<karen.lyall at b...> wrote:
<snip>
> And my last thought.  We now know from the chat that the marauders 
> were all Gryffindors and from the Pensieve scene in OOTP we know 
they 
> were in the same year.  
> 
> Can anyone point me to a piece of canon that state's Lily was a 
> Gryffindor and that she is the same age as James et all.  If we 
can't 
> find it maybe that's why Harry didn't look for her in the pensieve 
> scene because she wasn't supposed to be there?

Sophierom:

This isn't definitive canon, but here are two snips from the OotP 
(UK edition), which suggest that Lily was at least in the same year 
as James (can't find anything on her house):

1. Canon that suggests Lily was in the Great Hall
p. 566 - "A gang of chattering girls separated Snape from James ..."
p. 568 - "The sunlight was dazzling on the smooth surface of the 
lake, on the bank of which the group of laughing girls who had just 
left the Great Hall were sitting ..."
p. 570 - "'Leave him ALONE!' ... It was one of the girls from the 
lake edge ... Harry's mother."


2. Canon that suggests Lily was the same year as James:
'How come she married him?' Harry asked miserably. 'She hated him!'

'Nah, she didn't,' said Sirius.

'She started going out with him in seventh year,' said Lupin.(UK 
ed., 591)

The fact that Lupin just says "seventh year" and not "his" or "her" 
seventh year makes me think it was the seventh year for both.  This 
second piece isn't as strong as the first piece of canon; I think #1 
pretty clearly suggests that Lily made her way from the Great Hall 
to the Lake's Edge and then to Snape's defense.  

Sophierom




From joj at rochester.rr.com  Fri Mar  5 13:17:53 2004
From: joj at rochester.rr.com (coolbeans3131)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 13:17:53 -0000
Subject: JK's latest revelations
In-Reply-To: <c298ul+jjhv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c29um1+370n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92181

"sienna291973"  wrote:
 
> In the chat, JKR mentioned that Ron's middle name is Bilius. I was 
> trying to figure out where I had heard that name before and went 
> back to POA:
> 
> 'Hermione, if Harry's seen a Grim, that's - that's bad,' he 
> said. 'My - my Uncle Bilius saw one and - and he died twenty-four 
> hours later!'
> POA, pg 85
> 
> She... she wouldn't... would she? That's not a clue is it?  Is it?? 
> (*crickets*)



 I think it was a less obvious way of messing with us, as she loves 
to do. She knew the internet fans would pick up on that one.  So many 
fans worry about Ron, it's easy for her to scare us.  What I found 
more intersting was-

"gazza: will harry become head master of hogwarts 
JK Rowling replies -> I'm not sure I can see Harry in an academic 
career, he's seen so much action!"

This gave me a little hope she won't ruthlessly kill Harry, but I 
won't be able to relax until I've read the last page of book 7. (If 
she does kill him, I'll go into mourning and wear black for two 
weeks...at least)

Joj




From meriaugust at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  5 13:25:47 2004
From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 13:25:47 -0000
Subject: What would you think if.....
In-Reply-To: <029c01c40275$7f2e81c0$208b1a40@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <c29v4r+klmh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92182

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Erika L." <erikal at m...> wrote:
> Jennifer Massey asked:
> 
> >What would you "feel" if JKR killed >Harry?
> 
> 
> Merri replied:
> 
> >Harry sacrificing himself to the cause >of good would be a great 
way 
> >to end the series. 
> <snip>
> >if he hangs on just long enough to say a >beautiful good bye to 
Ron and 
> >Hermione and Hagrid, if he fades away >seeing a light in front of 
> >him, and is welcomed into the WW version >of an afterlife by his 
long 
> >lost mum, dad and godfather for an >eternity of familial bonding, 
> >then I will probably have to be scraped >off the ceiling I will 
be so 
> >happy. But that's just me. 
> 
> 
> Carol said:
> 
> >(I emphatically don't want him
> >to use Avada Kedavra or any other >Unforgiveable Curse. I do want 
him
> >to use his wits and his courage and to >survive.)
> 
> >So how would I feel if JKR killed Harry? >Betrayed! She'd be 
Wormtail
> >in my book.
> 
> Alla said:
> >Oh, yes. I don't know about betrayed, >but I most certainly will 
be 
> >dissappointed. I want the good guys win >and I want Harry to have 
some 
> >kind of normal happy life without Voldy >thing breating over his 
> >shoulder all the time. :o)
> 
> 
> I have to go with Carol and Alla on this one. I would be very 
upset were Harry to die at the end of the series. I simply cannot 
agree that Harry's death, even if that means reunion with his family 
and an end to his suffering, as Merri suggested, can in any way 
constitute a happy ending, or even a fully satisfying ending.
> 
> Merri said: 
> >Harry sacrificing himself to the cause >of good would be a great 
way 
> >to end the series. Then at the least we >fans will be assured 
that he 
> >won't be suffering anymore, and is >finally in for a little peace.
> 
> I can't agree with this at all. It's too easy. I think the books 
have made it clear that suffering is a part of life. 

snipping 

I'm not saying I want Harry to die. Far from it. I want Harry to 
marry, play international Quidditch for England, win two or three 
World Cups, have seven children, get a job as Defense Against the 
dark Arts teacher at Hogwarts and live to be a ripe old two hundred 
and fifty years old, spending weekends playing pick up Quidditch 
with the Weaslys and getting help from Hermione doing lesson plans. 
I want all those good things for Harry. I was only speculating on 
the conditions in which, were Harry to die at the ripe old age of 
seventeen, I would NOT end up sending Howlers to JKR every day for 
the rest of my own life. But I disagree that Harry dying, and 
therefore suffering no more is a cheat. At the end of Gladiator 

SPOILER ALERT!! 

after having suffered and struggled and lost almost 
everyone and everything he cares about, Maximus (played by Russell 
Crowe), having accomplished what he set out to do, dies, and is 
finally at rest, welcomed into Elyssium by his wife and son for an 
eternity of peace. That happening to Harry wouldn't be a cop-out at 
all. After all, only the good die young, right? 
Meri - who won't even get in to the real tragedy of Lupin and 
Sirius's lives




From joj at rochester.rr.com  Fri Mar  5 13:39:24 2004
From: joj at rochester.rr.com (coolbeans3131)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 13:39:24 -0000
Subject: Despicable Vernon. Was: More on the chat
In-Reply-To: <c281l6+gr77@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c29vuc+bpat@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92183

 
> Mandy said:
> I disagree with you and have to agree with JKR.  Uncle Vernon is a 
> despicable man who physically and verbally abused his nephew from 
> the day baby Harry was left on his door step.  And is still 
> continuing to try to get away with it, even though Vernon is now 
> afraid of Harry.  <snip>
> Those to me are the actions of a despicable person.  More so than 
LV 
> in a way because at least LV admits to, and is proud of being the 
> Evil Overlord bastard that he is.  Uncle Vernon spends his life 
> putting on the hypocritical face of respectability to the outside 
> world.  Uncle Vernon is no better than Deloris Jane Umbridge; both 
> get my vote for most despicable persons of the year.


I don't disagree with you about Vernon, but mostly Vernon, Petunia 
and Dudley have been painted with the same brush.  JK doesn't base 
her opinion of Vernon based on the first five books like we do.  She 
knows everything about him and what he's going to do.  I'm hoping 
you're right about Petunia.  There were clues of a possibility of a 
warmer Petunia in OoP.  My guess is that there is some magic in 
either Dudley or Petunia and Vernon will be ruthless in his attempts 
to squash it or cover it up.  I just think he's going to get much 
worse than he already is.

Joj




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Fri Mar  5 13:43:33 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 13:43:33 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat - What was not said - IV -   RIP Ron
In-Reply-To: <c29fnv+p1bq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2a065+rt2t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92184

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "samnanya" <yswahl at s...> wrote:
> i was really puzzled as to why Ron might die. I mean what sin has 
Ron 
> ever committed? 
> 
> Then i thought about the 7 Deadly Sins .... and then it hit me --- 
an 
> obvious "sin" since book 
> 1 -- gluttony. Throughout the series, JKR rarely misses an
> opportunity 
> to describes Rons eating excesses - most recently in the last 
chapter 
> of OOP. In fact, chocolate frogs are nearing extinction due to his 
> prodigious appetite.
> In thinking of the 7 deadly sins, I then tried to figure which of 
the 
> "good guys" either succumbed or was in danger of succumbing, and 
what 
> their moral shortcomings were and I arrived at the following......
> 
> Pride - Gilderoy Lockhart (not dead but not all there either)
> Greed - Ludo Bagman (i'd give 50 to 1 against his surviving)
> Anger - Hagrid
> Gluttony - Ron
> Sloth - Mundungus (he just seems to be the definitive slothy type)
> Envy - Fudge (envious of Dumbledore's power and prestige)
> Lust - hmmmmm..... Bill Weasley and the EEEEEnglish lessons?
> 
> Only Cedric was truly innocent, and he died because he strayed 
across 
> the path of the dark lord.....
> Just a theory, but I wonder.........


Have a thought on where you would put Sirius in this?

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From nkafkafi at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  5 13:44:47 2004
From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 13:44:47 -0000
Subject: JKR CHAT: Sirius and the Mirror
In-Reply-To: <c2966c+bfnt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2a08f+jpqc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92185

Steve wrote:
> K Rowling made some comments about Sirius in the recent chat. 
<snip>> 
> ************************************
> Will the two way mirror Sirius gave Harry ever show up again?
> JK Rowling replies -> Ooooo good question. There's your answer.
> 
> If we ever see Sirius again, what form will he be in?
> JK Rowling replies -> I couldn't possibly answer that for fear of
> incriminating myself.
> ************************************
> 
> <big snip>
> Now, on to the mirror; my feelings are the same, the mirror will
> return to the story, nothing more. It's a handy device just like the
> Cloak and the Map. The Order now knows that failing to keep Harry
> informed and failing to give him a fast easy effective method of
> communication is very much to everyone's detriment. 
> 
> Whether the matching mirror, or the mirror's counterpart, will be at
> the Order's headquarters, or whether Hermione will simply create a
> matching set of mirrors is difficult to say. But the re-appearance 
of
> the mirror in no way confirms, or in my opinion implies, 
comminication
> with Sirius; it merely says that in the future, Harry will use it 
as a
> handy communication device.
<snip>

Neri:
OK, here's another idea for you: right now the mirror is broken at 
the bottom of Harry's trunk. What happens to a two-way mirror when it 
gets broken? Would each of the pieces become a multi-way mirror, 
perhaps? Can you see Harry et al., in need of coordinating a complex 
special operation, using the pieces as walky-talkies? And I won't be 
surprised if, at the most critical moment of the operation, when 
everything seems lost, a mysterious half-familiar voice will get on 
the network, give the crucial direction, and then disappear forever.

Neri





From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Fri Mar  5 13:53:30 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 13:53:30 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat  "The Crucial and Central Question"
In-Reply-To: <c29jgq+pt36@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2a0oq+t2pt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92186

"nkafkafi" <nkafkafi at y...> wrote:
>> I don't wholly agree with you there. Harry's decision in SS/PS to 
> > go and find the stone before LV does was a very conscious 
> > decision. He could have just ignored it as Ron and Hermione were 
> > inclined to. And in CoS he actively goes with Ron to the quest of 
> > saving Ginny's life, when he already knows about the basilisk 
> > part, at least.

Kneasy replied:
> You yourself point out  that he tried to get to the Stone *before* 
> Voldy's agent (who he presumed to be Snape). When they found that 
> someone had already got past Fluffy did they  stop to consider just 
> what they might be getting into? No. Not a thought of who or what 
> might be waiting for them down there. So Harry ends up in a 
> situation that he hadn't planned for and only his in-
> built 'protection' (which he didn't know existed) saved his skin. 

> Similarly with the Chamber. Does  Harry consider before-hand how
> he will deal with the Basilisk if he meets it? No. In fact he seems 
> to dismiss that possibility entirely from his mind. Without Fawkes
> he would have been toast. A deus ex machina saves him again.

> Oh, Harry means well. A damning phrase. Often his actions are
> determined by his own set of personal loyalties, to  his friends, to
> his parents - all very laudable, understandable and to be applauded
> but this is not the same as a crusade against evil in general. He 
> has a tendency to rush off in a fit of adolescent enthusiasm, 
> knowing only half the story and without considering what he might 
> be getting into. <snip> 
> He hasn't chosen his side, it has been chosen for him. 

Susan now:
I do NOT agree with you here, Kneasy.  I agree that he rushed into 
things w/o fully thinking through the potential consequences and 
without a well-thought-out plan of action.  But he WAS choosing!  
Even if DD set up the scenario(s) [and I think he may well have, 
particularly w/ SS/PS], Harry still was choosing whether to act or 
not.  He could have sat on his ass & said, "Well, *I'M* not gonna be 
the one who goes after the Stone!  I'm just a kid!"  Just because it 
was done with adolescent enthusiasm and without much thought as to 
how he would handle what he might encounter, he was still CHOOSING 
**and** choosing because he wanted to STOP THE EVIL GUY.  How is that 
not choosing his side?

Siriusly Snapey Susan






From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Fri Mar  5 14:00:06 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 14:00:06 -0000
Subject: He's dead, Jim...
In-Reply-To: <c29t1n+hbqn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2a156+o1gg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92187

potioncat wrote:
> When asked about Regulus, JKR said, "Well, he's dead, so he's 
> pretty quiet these days."
> 
> I'm not as experienced with the sleuthing and interpreting JKR talk 
> as many of you are, but the "he's pretty quiet these days" seemed 
> to contradict the "he's dead" part.  That is, the world thinks he's 
> dead and that's his cover.  

Susan:
Not at all how I took it.  I thought that was just a little JKR 
slightly-sarcastic humor coming through.  As in, "He's dead.  
So...that would make him kind of quiet now [insert chuckle]."    

Siriusly Snapey Susan






From gbannister10 at aol.com  Fri Mar  5 14:03:36 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 14:03:36 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat
In-Reply-To: <c28tjm+tm69@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2a1bo+eo2i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92188

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "corinthum" <kkearney at s...> 
wrote:
> Susan:
> 
> > And, okay, I'm embarrassed to even ask 
> > this but, didn't Ron tell Harry in SS/PS that Bill & Charlie were 
> > off w/ Gringotts & studying dragons, respectively??  Or [eeeek!] 
is 
> > that movie contamination?  If he DID say it, then Charlie WASN'T 
> > still at Hogwarts in HRH's first year.  
> 
> 
> Nope, no movie contamination there.  
> 
> 'Five,' said Ron... Bill and Charlie have already left..." (SS
> paperback p. 99)
> 
> -Corinth

Geoff:
And in addition....

"'So what do your oldest brothers do now they've left anyway?'
Harry was wondering what a wizard did once he'd finished school.
'Charlie's in Romania studying dragons and Bill's in Africa doing 
something for Gringott's', said Ron"

(PS "The Journey fom Platform Nine and Three-Quarters" p.80 UK 
edition)




From nkafkafi at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  5 14:10:21 2004
From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 14:10:21 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat  "The Crucial and Central Question"
In-Reply-To: <c29jgq+pt36@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2a1od+vd6d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92189

Kneasy wrote:
> Well, it depends  on how you look at it.
> 
> You yourself point out  that he tried to get to the Stone *before* 
Voldy's
> agent (who he presumed to be Snape). When they found that someone 
> had already got past Fluffy did they  stop to consider just what  
they
> might be getting into? No. Not a thought of who or what might be
> waiting for them down there. So Harry ends up in a situation that he
> hadn't planned for and only his in-built 'protection' (which he 
didn't
> know existed) saved his skin. And if  it had been Snape, how would
> Harry have fared then? His Voldy-proofing would have been of no
> use at all.
> 
> Similarly with the Chamber. Does  Harry consider before-hand how
> he will deal with the Basilisk if he meets it? No. In fact he seems 
to
> dismiss that possibility entirely from his mind. Without Fawkes
> he would have been toast. A deus ex machina saves him again.
> 
> Oh, Harry means well. A damning phrase. Often his actions are
> determined by his own set of personal loyalties, to  his friends, to
> his parents - all very laudable, understandable and to be applauded
> but this is not the same as a crusade against evil in general. He 
has 
> a tendency to rush off in a fit of adolescent enthusiasm, knowing 
only
> half the story and without considering what he might be getting 
into. 
> Consequently, what he  gets into is trouble that needs the 
intervention
> of a force or device that somehow saves him from the consequences 
> of his own actions. 
> 
> Of course, this is what gives the stories flavour, but it is only 
now, at
> the end of the 5th book, that he is able to put his past exploits 
into
> some sort of perspective. He hasn't chosen his side, it has been
> chosen for him. Now he has to decide what to do about it. He's not
> exactly enthusiastic about the idea. He may yet rebel.
> 
> Kneasy

Neri:
In this sense you are certainly right. JKR herself said in the last 
Times interview that Harry operates "on a need-to-know basis". I was 
exasperated with this many times when I was reading the books. I very 
much identify with Hermione when she says on the train on SS/PS 
(paraphrasing from memory): "What, don't you know? I would have found 
out everything I could if I were you".

Neri





From quigonginger at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  5 14:11:37 2004
From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 14:11:37 -0000
Subject: Filk:  I'll Fly Instead
Message-ID: <c2a1qp+9o5f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92190

I'll Fly Instead based on I'll Cry Instead by the Beatles.

To Pippin, with condolences on the Vamp!Snape thing.

Harry, in the Forbidden Forest, sings:

I've got a vision here in my head-drives me mad.
Now I need wheels to find my dear Goddad.
If I could drive the A*
I'd head to London town that way, 
But I can't, so I'll fly instead.

I've got a view in my noggin that's burning with great heat.
My Godfather's facing his defeat.
That retched Umbridge cow!
Her floo would get me there right now,
But I can't, so I'll fly instead.

Thestrals will get all these people there.
I guess they can fly anywhere.
I'm gonna fly and save the day
But I'll have help from my DA.

And when I do, with help from my guys and girls,
We're gonna send DE's home in a whirl.
I need a portkey or floo, 
But a bony herd of equine things will do,
So I guess, I'll fly instead.

*referring to the Anglia


Ginger, pondering that guys named John sometimes use the nickname 
Jack, and wondering if that is the "wolf connection" as John is 
Remus' middle name.  Wolfman Jack?  Maybe?




From patnkatng at cox.net  Fri Mar  5 14:13:01 2004
From: patnkatng at cox.net (Katrina)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 14:13:01 -0000
Subject: Motorbike (was: Chat response  (motorbike/Ginny's and Molly's names)
In-Reply-To: <c27im1+nu36@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2a1td+r8v0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92191

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" <stevejjen at e...> 
wrote:
> From the chat transcript:
> 
> Rita: Whatever happend to Sirius' flying motorbike?
> 
> JK Rowling replies -> Ah, good question. You'll find out, but the 
> real sleuths among you might be able to guess.
> 
> > Hickengruendler:
> > > Maybe it lives in the Forbidden Forest, like the Ford Anglia?
> 
> Eloise: 
> 
> > This has always been my fond belief. I like to imagine that they 
> are between 
> > them bringing up a little family of motorbikes with side cars. 
> 
> 
> Jen: That was my first thought, too--the bike's in the Forbidden 
> Forest. JKR said 'real sleuths' among us would be able to guess. 
> Well, what clues do we have? Just that Hagrid was the last one in 
> possession of the bike. Or the last person we see with it. It 
makes 
> sense he took the motorbike back to Hogwarts.
> 
> 
> Eloise:
> Either that, or 
> > it returned to its enchanter. Now who do we know who just might 
> enchant a 
> > motorbike to fly? Could it be stashed away in an outbuilding at 
> the Weasleys', 
> > out of Molly's sight?
> 
> Jen: Or somehow the bike got sent to Arthur's department 
> for 'disposal' so he just took it home to tinker with it. I like 
> this theory better than the Forbidden Forest because it fits in so 
> well with Arthur's character. Seems strange none of the kids would 
> have found it by now,though, 15+ years later.

Katrina:
Let's not forget Kingsley Shacklebolt.  Since he's heading 
the "search" for Sirius, perhaps he's "impounded" it. ;)




From vecseytj at tampabay.rr.com  Fri Mar  5 14:20:49 2004
From: vecseytj at tampabay.rr.com (vecseytj)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 14:20:49 -0000
Subject: Shake-up at the Ministry
In-Reply-To: <c29tij+1022a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2a2c1+6f1j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92192

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "maneelyfh" <maneelyfh at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" <nkafkafi at y...> 
> wrote:
> > BrwNeil at a... wrote:
> > > 
> > > > This is why I don't bet on horse races because I'd probably 
> lose 
> > the family 
> > > > home, but my money is definitely on AW.  Too often has JKR 
> > emphasized his lowly 
> > > > ministry position and his lack of money.  What greater slap in 
> > the face to 
> > > > Percy could there be than the father he rejected becoming MoM.
> > > > 
> > > > The clincher is that JKR always has Hermione being right except 
> > when excited 
> > > > and Ron always being wrong except when joking.  Ron joked about 
> > Gryffindor 
> > > > having as much chance of wining the Quidditch cup as his dad 
> > becoming MoM.  
> > > > Gryffindor won and so will the long shot Weasley.
> > > > 
> > 
> > Kneasy wrote
> > > 
> > > I agree with you but for slightly different reasons.
> > > 
> > > Two  clues from the chat can be tied to gether:
> > > 1. There is a new Minister
> > > 2. The Muggle world is starting to notice things.
> > > 
> > > This is likely  to cause problems for the Ministry.
> > > Somebody will  have to take charge and sort  it out.
> > > OK, who is the MoM expert on Muggles? Arthur.
> > > 
> > > Weasleys triumphant!
> > 
> > Neri:
> > My vote is for AW for a single reason: I want to see the expression 
> > on Percy's face (or at least read JKR's description of it) when he 
> > finds out. I think this reason is as good as any.
> > 
> > Besides, anyone who has managed, with very meager budget, to 
> navigate 
> > such a large and dynamic family to safe water and good chances for 
> > future (if not present) prosperity must be a good Minister. > 
> > Neri
> 
> So what acronym can we come up with for this? W.I.N Weasley is 
> Next...? Sorry not very good with these things. If he does not get 
> the MOM position, at least he should get a promotion. The reason I am 
> in this camp is Ron's joking comment, and in my heart I want him to 
> succeed!
> Fran

Well, I agree with all of the above, but, I was reminded about
something DD said in the Chamber of Secrets, about the Weasley family.
 He said that the Weasley's are one of our most prominate Wizarding
families.  And I think something is going to come out about Lucius
Malfoy having put the imperious curse on Arthur Weasley in the past as
well.  I think that everyone was taken in by Malfoy and Arthur was
left with egg on his face from Malfoy.  There MUST be a reason they
HATE each other.  And I think with Malfoy in jail now is the time for
it to hit the front page.  You know all it takes to win an election is
 for the public to notice you... 
Oh well and I guess all I want is to see Fudge get the boot.  
Tj




From jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net  Fri Mar  5 14:20:29 2004
From: jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net (Robert Jones)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 14:20:29 -0000
Subject: "die, ron, die"
Message-ID: <c2a2bd+coo7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92193

Having earlier posted reasons for why I think Ron is going to die in 
Book 7, I was interested in JKR's response to the question about a 
job for Ron.  She has earlier responded to questions about Harry's 
future life by saying "That assumes he is going to be alive."  Now 
she's not doing that for Harry and seems to be suggesting that Harry 
will survive.  But now she is using that cutesy answer for Ron.  

Is this new answer just a trick to keep us guessing about Ron, or is 
it a real hesitancy not to give away an important part of the plot?  
I think it might be the latter because why else introduce this type 
of answer after using it for Harry?  

Of course, we will have to wait maybe five years to find out.




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Fri Mar  5 14:27:59 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 14:27:59 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat
In-Reply-To: <c2a1bo+eo2i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2a2pf+hoqf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92194

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" 
<gbannister10 at a...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "corinthum" <kkearney at s...> 
> wrote:
> > Susan:
> > 
> > > And, okay, I'm embarrassed to even ask 
> > > this but, didn't Ron tell Harry in SS/PS that Bill & Charlie 
were 
> > > off w/ Gringotts & studying dragons, respectively??  Or 
[eeeek!] 
> is 
> > > that movie contamination?  If he DID say it, then Charlie 
WASN'T 
> > > still at Hogwarts in HRH's first year.  
> > 
> > 
> > Nope, no movie contamination there.  
> > 
> > 'Five,' said Ron... Bill and Charlie have already left..." (SS
> > paperback p. 99)
> > 
> > -Corinth
> 
> Geoff:
> And in addition....
> 
> "'So what do your oldest brothers do now they've left anyway?'
> Harry was wondering what a wizard did once he'd finished school.
> 'Charlie's in Romania studying dragons and Bill's in Africa doing 
> something for Gringott's', said Ron"
> 
> (PS "The Journey fom Platform Nine and Three-Quarters" p.80 UK 
> edition)

Good.  Thank you both, Geoff & Corinth.  Well, that should end THAT 
discussion of whether Charlie was at Hogwarts in Harry's first year.  
So looks like JKR simply misspoke in the chat?  With the possibility 
of what another poster noted, that one can be 2 years older but 3 
*classes* older, depending on birthdate.  Still, I'm betting she just 
misspoke...er...mistyped.

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From nkafkafi at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  5 14:30:26 2004
From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 14:30:26 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Harry and Hermione together per JKR chat?
In-Reply-To: <c29koa+n3kk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2a2u2+95t0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92195

Jim Ferer  wrote:
<snip>
> My idea of "clues" is what we see of the developing personalities
and
> relationships, not in a tiny cue here and a tiny cue there. Seen in
> the thematic way, I see Harry and Hermione growing closer and closer
> all the time; Harry identifying with the way Hermione thinks and
> hearing her voice inside; Hermione knowing just what Harry needs and
> exerting herself for it with intelligence and even ruthlessness if
> needed. Now, a close friend would do the same, maybe, but I believe
> this is more, or will be more as time goes on.
>
> I've always believed that JKR's clues are under the skins of the
> characters, not in chopping up tiny patches of text like tax
lawyers.
> Skyscrapers built on the head of a pin don't generally stand up.

Naama:
I see her answer differently (of course, I'm a solid, can't-be-
shaken, R/H-er <g>). The only romantic clues that have appeared in
the books ar of Ron's feelings for Hermione. I think we all agree on
that, right? So, going by that, I interprete her answer as pointing
to a possible Ron/Hermione romance. There are certainly no clues to a
romantic attachment happening between Harry and Hermione.

Neri now:
I was reading JKR's answer the same way as Naama was. I think this is 
a case of JKR getting just the punishment she deserves. She has 
thrown us so many red herrings that by now readers just refuse to 
acknowledge the R/H romantic tension because it is so obviously there.

Neri





From vecseytj at tampabay.rr.com  Fri Mar  5 14:38:27 2004
From: vecseytj at tampabay.rr.com (vecseytj)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 14:38:27 -0000
Subject: 5 years! was "die, ron, die"
In-Reply-To: <c2a2bd+coo7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2a3d3+g81g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92196

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Robert Jones"
<jones.r.h.j at w...> wrote:
> -snip-
> 
> Is this new answer just a trick to keep us guessing about Ron, or is 
> it a real hesitancy not to give away an important part of the plot?  
> I think it might be the latter because why else introduce this type 
> of answer after using it for Harry?  
> 
> Of course, we will have to wait maybe five years to find out.

 5 years?  Yikes! Seems a bit long. The books and the movies have
become intertwined.  They are working on 2 movies now  POA, GOF, and
are working on the script for OOTp.  JKR HAS to finish the books soon,
the actors arn't getting any younger.. and she said herself that she
would like the same actors to work on the whole series.  So for that
reason and that reason only, I think that we are going to be seeing
these books a might bit quicker that 5 years.

I am sure someone better at math than me is going to prove me wrong..
but, I hope I'm right.  5 years.. eeek!  I won't have any hair left. 
I'll have pulled it all out.  :)

Tj




From quigonginger at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  5 14:44:08 2004
From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 14:44:08 -0000
Subject: Filk:  Die, Die, Ron, Ron, Ron
Message-ID: <c2a3no+kdmh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92197

Die, Die, Ron, Ron, Ron,  based on, you guessed it, Da Doo Ron Ron 
Ron by either the Crystals or Shaun Cassidy, depending on your 
generation.


To CMC, the Muse of music, the Wizard of words, the Sorceror of 
songs, the Ruler of rhythm....Shut up, Ginger.  Shutting up.


"And I don't care if my tea leaves spell 'die, Ron, die,' I'm just 
chucking them in the bin where they belong."  Ron Weasley, OoP p, 718 
US hardcover.

If Mummy gives me chamomile when I am ill
Die, die, Ron, Ron, Ron.   Die, die, Ron, Ron.
Or I get Darjeeling from my brother Bill
Die, die, Ron, Ron, Ron, Die, die, Ron, Ron.

Yeah, if I am ill.
Yeah, a gift from Bill.
The bin's where they belong.
Die, die, Ron, Ron, Ron.  Die, die, Ron, Ron.

If Sybil wants a Pekoe with her Inner Eye
Die, die, Ron, Ron, Ron.  Die, die, Ron, Ron.
Herbal is saying she can prophesy.
Die, die, Ron, Ron, Ron.  Die, die, Ron, Ron.

Yeah, her Inner Eye.
Yeah, can prophesy.
The bin's where they belong.
Die, die, Ron, Ron, Ron.  Die, die, Ron, Ron.

Three years in her class is just too long a time.
Die, die, Ron, Ron, Ron.  Die, die, Ron, Ron.
Earl Grey's causing me the walls to climb.
Die, die, Ron, Ron, Ron.  Die, die, Ron, Ron.

Yeah, Oolong a time.
Yeah, the walls I'll climb.
The bin's where they belong.
Die, die, Ron, Ron, Ron.  Die, die, Ron, Ron.

Ginger, who freely admits knowing nothing about tea, its leaves, or 
the reading thereof, and asks that if a certain type of tea mentioned 
is illegible that she be forgiven for her ignorance.




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Mar  5 14:49:21 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 14:49:21 -0000
Subject: Snape NOT a Vampire (Was  The Marauders are all Gryffindors)
In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20040305165234.02928820@pop3.xtra.co.nz>
Message-ID: <c2a41h+dm5j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92198

> Tanya again
> 
> Right, have been giving this some thought.  Firmly still on the 
fence. However when the question asked was there a 
connection, it didn't ask if he was one.  Now, I may have this 
wrong, but in my understanding of English.  Connection could 
mean several things.  He has vampire friends, or even one in his 
family.  I have trouble seeing as it meaning he is connected yes 
or no, but being one or not.<<

Well, I've had a chance to sleep on it and I can say, at the risk of 
sounding like an Anybody-but-Ron/Hermione shipper,  it *is* an 
equivocal answer. As in "I don't think so...I *know* so."
And that reminded me of this little canon tidbit from PS/SS ch.8.
----
At the start of term banquet, Harry had got the idea that Professor 
Snape disliked him. By the end of the first Potions lesson, he 
knew he'd been wrong. Snape didn't dislike Harry--he *hated* 
him.
-----
(emphasis JKR's) 

So I may have to recant my recantation [I can hear Amanda 
groaning from here] .  There are alternate explanations for all the 
vampire clues, but I find none of them as cogent as a vampire 
connection. Those of you who would like to review the clues 
pre-OOP are directed to my published works :-)

http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/mysteries.html

The OOP clues are: 
ch4 Snape's refusal to eat at Grimmauld Place
ch 26 Snape's    memory of zapping flies in a darkened room
contrasted with
ch 28 his near-blindness in the brilliantly lit Great Hall, his
pallid appearance "like a plant  kept in the dark"  and his 
preference for deep shade when out of doors. 


For information about JKR's vampires see the HP Lexicon

http://www.hp-lexicon.org/bestiary/bestiary_t-z.html

En Garde!

Pippin
who will just have to put on her battle helmet instead of her hat, 
and ask Amanda to save the conciliatory butterbeer for another 
day :-)





From gbannister10 at aol.com  Fri Mar  5 15:08:45 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 15:08:45 -0000
Subject: More on the chat
In-Reply-To: <c2903o+kbp4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2a55t+iesv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92199

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Arya" <dequardo at w...> wrote:

Arya:
> Hello!!! You could have asked as many questions as you liked just 
like I did!!  
> She was not JUST chatting with kids.  There was a post (# 91994 by 
> Entropymail) that gave everyone one of us the link to where we 
could submit 
> all the questions we could dream up starting at 7pm CST.  I don't 
know about 
> you but I sure as hell spent a good two hours thinking up questions 
that were 
> unique, had a chance at being chosen and might help give us clues.  
I 
> probably submitted over 50 questions under more than one name (in 
case 
> they only let one question per name--which was NOT the case--grrr!) 



Geoff:
I missed the information about submitting times and, as I am always 
out every day between 10.00 and 11.00am UK time, I wasn't around to 
get involved directly.

Mark you, if everybody played your game of submitting multiple 
questions under different names, no wonder 16000 were put forward. I 
have just waded through my transcript printout and worked out the 
following bits of info (assuming I didn't miss any names):

There were 119 questions answered. 92 were from one person, 7 from 
people who got two in, 9 from people who managed three and one person 
managed four. Even allowing for folk using more than one nickname, 
still a slight unbalance....


Arya:
> So....don't complain about the questions when you could have done 
> just as much as I did to try to saturate the question pool with 
good non-
> moronic (did you know they ride brooms backwards?) questions!!  

Geoff:
I would personally have considered that a bit unfair as a lot of 
people wouldn't have got even one question in....  

And even that wouldn't have guaranteed a jackpot; hypothetically, if 
everybody had put 50 questions in, there would have been 320 people 
and even they wouldn't have managed one each. 




From siriuslove71 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  5 15:27:23 2004
From: siriuslove71 at yahoo.com (Diana_Sirius_fan)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 15:27:23 -0000
Subject: Snape NOT a Vampire (Was  The Marauders are all Gryffindors)
In-Reply-To: <c28u0f+siiv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2a68r+jc0v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92200

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "melclaros" <melclaros at y...> 
wrote:

> Mel:
> What was not said is exactly what you mentioned: "Wait and 
see" , "I 
> can't tell you that", "I can't give that much away", "Keep reading 
> and you'll find out more". She's pitifully transparent when she's 
> trying to "hide" information.
> So I guess unless she titles book 6 "Harry Potter Determines 
> (Professor)Snape is Not a Vampire" some folks just won't give this 
a 
> rest.
> 
> Rock on if it keeps you happy. 
> 
> Honestly, I wouldn't give 2 knuts for anything JKR said in any 
> interview or chat but if someone forced me to choose what 
> she "meant" here I'd have to go with the "sorry, no he's not" camp.
> But then I've known that all along.
> 
> melpomene

This is not a hot topic for me as I could care less if Snape was a 
Vampire or not.  But...if JK did answer the question in any of the 
above mentioned ways some would automatically come to the conclusion 
that there is a connection.  JK could have said, "no, there is not a 
connection" and the subject would have been dropped.  She did not.  
She left it open to discussion, which I think is brilliant on her 
part. Diana 




From riberam at glue.umd.edu  Fri Mar  5 15:40:34 2004
From: riberam at glue.umd.edu (Maria Ribera)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 10:40:34 -0500
Subject: Chat - shorter summer at Dursleys
Message-ID: <711DE40E-6EBB-11D8-9058-000393987376@glue.umd.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 92201

> Samnanya  wrote:

>
> Which to me means that he must leave before his 16th birthday (In SS
> he leaves with Dursleys 2 days before his 11th Birthday)
> Hmmmm wonder WHY he leaves and abandons protection that staying in
> Privet Drive provides, especially considering that the Second War has
> begun.
>

No, he didn't leave in PS/SS before his birthday. After shopping in 
Diagon Alley, Hagrid puts him back in the train to the Dursleys, where 
he stays until september 1st.

I also liked this question. Regarding the protection you mention, i had 
the impression that Harry would be protected if he spends some time 
every year with his blood relative, but that doesn't mean as much time 
possible, i think.

I am really curious about how and where Harry will spend his summer. I 
think definitely while at Privet Drive he will have more contact with 
Arabella Fig. I wonder if he will need a Guard like in OotP or not to 
leave, after all he is still in danger, don't you think? If he didn't, 
i'd bet that Hagrid comes to pick him up in the motorbike. I have the 
feeling that they won't put him in Grimmauld Place right away, if 
indeed the place still belongs to the order or Harry, too many memories 
of too recent events. So i tend to think that he will go to the Burrow 
for a while, have the Weasleys help him cope a little, and only then 
maybe go to Grimmauld.

So many possibilities!!!

Maria, who has been lurking for way too long and feels very happy with 
all the new information.





From CareALotsClouds at aol.com  Fri Mar  5 15:44:58 2004
From: CareALotsClouds at aol.com (CareALotsClouds at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 10:44:58 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape NOT a Vampire (Was  The Marauders are all Gryff...
Message-ID: <cb.3e0e67f6.2d79fa7a@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92202

In a message dated 05/03/04 15:33:30 GMT Standard Time, 
siriuslove71 at yahoo.com writes:


> This is not a hot topic for me as I could care less if Snape was a 
> Vampire or not.  But...if JK did answer the question in any of the 
> above mentioned ways some would automatically come to the conclusion 
> that there is a connection.  JK could have said, "no, there is not a 
> connection" and the subject would have been dropped.  She did not.  
> She left it open to discussion, which I think is brilliant on her 
> part. Diana 
> 

I think JK is very awkward when questions are asked by her fans that are, in 
her mind, have something to do with the plot and the question has some truth 
in it.  So she does answer them awkwardly, not wanting to answer so she answers 
in the way of 'Wait and see'.  I think you are right in saying that if she 
says this then she knows that we are going to know there is something up.  But 
then again, with this Vampire question she said 'No'.  I think she knows it is 
discussed so much that she didnt want to spoil to many theories.  Fact of the 
matter is she said 'No'.  She may of said 'erm' to throw us of but she said 
'No' and I dont think she would lie to her fans.  But like Diana says she has 
left it open for very hopeful !vampireSnape fans, it does sound like a 'No' 
though

Personally I always thought the theory was a bit silly, but thats just IMHO.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From riberam at glue.umd.edu  Fri Mar  5 16:02:32 2004
From: riberam at glue.umd.edu (Maria Ribera)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 11:02:32 -0500
Subject: Chat - Quidditch captain & Harry being busy
In-Reply-To: <1078496103.10082.77944.m14@yahoogroups.com>
References: <1078496103.10082.77944.m14@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <82DD78E0-6EBE-11D8-9058-000393987376@glue.umd.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 92203


>> Sue said:
>> When I read this reply, I thought immediately that Ron would be
>> captain.  It seemed to fit her sense of humor also, as Ron is
>> constantly thinking he should quit.  I can just hear him saying he is
>> going to fire himself.
>
> Joj says:
> Don't you think it would be very insulting to Harry? He has played
> very well, and will be on the team for the sixth year. Then to have
> someone who's on their second year and has only played one good game,
> after the previous lousy games, be his captain?
>
> Harry didn't get to be prefect, but he does deserve to be Quidditch
> captain, unless of course, he doesn't want to be.

Well, i don't think Harry needs the responsibility of being Quidditch 
captain, we have seen that it takes a lot of work, having to organize 
trainings, recruiting, contacting everyone, etc. Harry is aware of this 
and, even if it takes him a moment of jealousy like right after Ron was 
made prefect, he will accept Ron or anyone else as captain. Even more, 
when he finally accepted that Ron deserved to be prefect, at the end of 
his reasoning he realized that Ron deserved it and that he was happy 
for his friend. I am sure it will not take him as long to feel the same 
way if Ron is made captain. Besides, as has been seen before Ron is 
great at strategy, and that would be a great asset as a captain, not 
just being longer in the team.

Regarding how busy harry is going to be, something else from the chat 
comes to my mind:

polly weasley: Will Harry fall for another girl in book six, or will he 
be too busy for romance?
  JK Rowling replies -> He'll be busy, but what's life without a little 
romance?

  Field: Regarding Harrys subconscious feelings, how has it changed from 
book 1 to book 5?
  JK Rowling replies -> Well he's obviously been through a lot since 
book one and book five was the book when he cracked up a little. In 
book six, the wizarding world is really at war again and he has to 
master his own feelings to make himself useful.

So i'm thinking, if he is going to be busy and he is going to have to 
master his own feelings to be useful, he is probably be doing something 
else besides classes, and something that will arise feelings he will 
have to master: either the feeling of sadness of all that has 
happenned, or feelings of hatred against Snape to continue with 
Occlumency. I am wondering if Occlumency will still be useful, and i am 
guessing that it will be. That brain contact with Voldy could be very 
dangerous, as well as useful if controlled. Or maybe Occlumency has 
nothing to do with it, and he will be busy with DA, or advanced DADA 
lessons from someone to prepare him for the war, or whatever. Any 
guesses?

So, in conclusion, Harry will be busy with 'whatever' besides the 
lessons, and he will not have so many issues accepting Ron (or someone 
else) as captain.

Maria, loving all the new possibilities




From tigerfan41 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  5 16:04:02 2004
From: tigerfan41 at yahoo.com (Darrell Harris)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 08:04:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 4306
In-Reply-To: <1078475359.2993.41370.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040305160402.12317.qmail@web10007.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92204


------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 

There are 11 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

      1. Re: What would you think if.....
           From: "Erika L." <erikal at magma.ca>
      2. Re: Some questions (JKR's chat)--Quidditch
captain
           From: "suehpfan" <stanleys at sbcglobal.net>
      3. Re: JKR Chat- Sirius Black
           From: "suehpfan" <stanleys at sbcglobal.net>
      4. JKR CHAT: Sirius and the Mirror
           From: "Steve" <bboy_mn at yahoo.com>
      5. Weasleys Ages-The last and final post you
will ever need
           From: "Molly Rahe"
<molly at elizabethjewelry.com>
      6. Re: JK's latest revelations
           From: "sienna291973"
<jujupoet29 at hotmail.com>
      7. JKR Chat - What was not said - I - Harry's
Departure from 
Privet Drive
           From: "samnanya" <yswahl at stis.net>
      8. JKR Chat - What was not said - II -  SHIP
ALERT - HH
           From: "samnanya" <yswahl at stis.net>
      9. Re: More on the chat
           From: "Geoff Bannister"
<gbannister10 at aol.com>
     10. Re: More on the chat
           From: "Geoff Bannister"
<gbannister10 at aol.com>
     11. JKR Chat - What was not said - III -  Remus
as Half Blood
           From: "samnanya" <yswahl at stis.net>


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 23:48:32 -0600
   From: "Erika L." <erikal at magma.ca>
Subject: Re: What would you think if.....

Jennifer Massey asked:

>What would you "feel" if JKR killed >Harry?


Merri replied:

>Harry sacrificing himself to the cause >of good would
be a great way 
>to end the series. 
<snip>
>if he hangs on just long enough to say a >beautiful
good bye to Ron 
and 
>Hermione and Hagrid, if he fades away >seeing a light
in front of 
>him, and is welcomed into the WW version >of an
afterlife by his long 
>lost mum, dad and godfather for an >eternity of
familial bonding, 
>then I will probably have to be scraped >off the
ceiling I will be so 
>happy. But that's just me. 


Carol said:

>(I emphatically don't want him
>to use Avada Kedavra or any other >Unforgiveable
Curse. I do want him
>to use his wits and his courage and to >survive.)

>So how would I feel if JKR killed Harry? >Betrayed!
She'd be Wormtail
>in my book.

Alla said:
>Oh, yes. I don't know about betrayed, >but I most
certainly will be 
>dissappointed. I want the good guys win >and I want
Harry to have some 
>kind of normal happy life without Voldy >thing
breating over his 
>shoulder all the time. :o)


I have to go with Carol and Alla on this one. I would
be very upset 
were Harry to die at the end of the series. I simply
cannot agree that 
Harry's death, even if that means reunion with his
family and an end to 
his suffering, as Merri suggested, can in any way
constitute a happy 
ending, or even a fully satisfying ending.

Merri said: 
>Harry sacrificing himself to the cause >of good would
be a great way 
>to end the series. Then at the least we >fans will be
assured that he 
>won't be suffering anymore, and is >finally in for a
little peace.

I can't agree with this at all. It's too easy. I think
the books have 
made it clear that suffering is a part of life. And
Harry does not have 
the monopoly on suffering. Lupin, Sirius and Neville
come to mind as 
other characters who've had to deal with forms of
suffering such as 
grief, loss, betrayal, physical harship, and so on.
One can argue about the  
degree to which any of them suffer, but to say that
death is okay 
because it constitutes an end to a character's
suffering, is a denial of 
life itself. I want to see Harry have a chance at
being happy in _this_ 
life before he goes on to be happy in the next.

    After all, isn't part of the tragedy of Sirius'
death that he 
missed out on so much of his life? He spent at least a
third of it in 
Azkaban for a crime he didn't commit. No sooner does
he get out than he gets 
killed. To me, Harry's demise would be equally tragic
since he's had 
even less opportunity to enjoy life. He spent a decade
in a closet 
suffering physical and emotional abuse and
deprivation-- not too different 
from the situation Sirius is in during those years
come to think of it. 
Yes, Harry's had some fun at Hogwarts, but he's also
had to spend a lot 
of time just trying to keep himself in one piece. I
think Harry's been 
surviving far more than he's been living. If he
defeats Voldemort I 
think he may then have a real shot at life. Yes, he'll
always carry a 
burden of grief and pain, but I still think life has
enough to offer Harry 
to make that burden worth bearing. So no I would not
be satisfied with 
Harry making a grandiose self-sacrificial exit.
Instead, I would feel 
cheated. I want to see him _live_ before he dies.

Just my two knuts
Erika (Wolfraven)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
   Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 05:15:46 -0000
   From: "suehpfan" <stanleys at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Some questions (JKR's chat)--Quidditch
captain

*bibwhang: Will Ron ever get on the Gryffindor
quidditch team?
JK Rowling replies -> Well, he's already there! The
question is,
whether the new Quidditch Captain will allow him to
stay!
 
Iris:
BIG SNIP>
And who will be the new Quidditch Captain? Quidditch
could be an 
important narrative resort in the next book.

Susan:
Something in JKR's humorous reply made me think that
maybe GINNY 
would be the new captain.  I know that makes no real
sense, but 
wouldn't it be just like a little sister to consider
NOT letting her 
big brother be on the team? :-)
 
Siriusly Snapey Susan

Sue:
When I read this reply, I thought immediately that Ron
would be 
captain.  It seemed to fit her sense of humor also, as
Ron is 
constantly thinking he should quit.  I can just hear
him saying he is 
going to fire himself.

finally some answers, but still so many questions....



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3
   Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 05:30:29 -0000
   From: "suehpfan" <stanleys at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: JKR Chat- Sirius Black

oldone:
 
Ok we know Sirius' body probabily won't return but,...
his 
reflection giving advice through the mirror? 
Maybe. We have seen mirrors that talk and give advice,
but their 
kind of advice is usually limited to "Tuck in your
shirt, scruffy."

I think Sirius might very well return in the form of a
portrait. I'm 
guessing that a wizarding portrait would have had to
have been 
painted before the subject died, but since Sirius is
from a rich 
family, I can easily imagine that there's a portrait
of him laying 
around Grimmauld Place somewhere, probably under a
heap of junk in 
the attic or something. We have seen portraits not
only give advice 
but actually run errands for the living. Perhaps all
that needs to 
happen is for that old portrait to be "developed" in
potions, kind 
of like a photograph.
 
 Steve
Lexicon-ing tonight.

This is what I think as well.  I am also curius about
the portrait of 
Harry that Dobby painted.  After Harry opened it we
never heard about 
it again.  Was it left at Grimauld Place?  Maybe in
the same musty 
attic pile as an old portrait of Sirius? We know now
for sure that 
house elves have powers wizards do not.  
Sue



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4
   Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 06:19:56 -0000
   From: "Steve" <bboy_mn at yahoo.com>
Subject: JKR CHAT: Sirius and the Mirror

K Rowling made some comments about Sirius in the
recent chat. Sorry to
say that I think some people are taking this
information to extreme
and in my opinion unlikely conclusions.

************************************
Will the two way mirror Sirius gave Harry ever show up
again?
JK Rowling replies -> Ooooo good question. There's
your answer.

If we ever see Sirius again, what form will he be in?
JK Rowling replies -> I couldn't possibly answer that
for fear of
incriminating myself.
************************************

We could interpret this as JKR simply saying 'no
comment'. That
doesn't mean Sirius will come back, and equally
doesn't mean he won't.

However, if he does re-appear in the story, that
doesn't mean he will
literally come back from the dead. We have seen James
Potter appear in
the story several times, in Snape's worst memory, for
example. But
while he came back into the story, he did not come
back from the dead. 

Any re-appearance of Sirius could be in the same vein.
In fact, I
would almost guarantee that Sirius will re-appear in
the form of
memories whether they are in narrative, recollection,
or in the 
Pensieve. 

One additional possiblilty is that Harry will able to
communicate
BRIEFLY with Sirius by talking to him through the Veil
in the Chamber
of Death. Keep in mind that someone now in the realm
of the dead, has
much different priorities that someone amoung the
living. Petty fears
and earthly desires mean very little to the ones who
live in perfect
peace and tranquility beyond the veil.

Other than involving someone like Trelawney, I see
this as the only
way to communcate with the dead. I also see it as a
sufficiently
limited way of communicating with Sirius as to not
disturb the story
significantly, and as not opening unresolvable plot
holes. 

A greater, more exciting, but much less likely
possibility is that, as
many have predicted, the story will require Harry to
travel 'beyond
the veil'. That's not that uncommon a theme in
mythology/fantasy. 

So, my point is that Sirius does not have to return
from the dead in
order for him to return to the story. And, I take
JKR's comment to
mean nothing more than the possibility that Sirius
will return to the
story. Perhaps there will be some revelation in
Sirius's backstory
that will be helpful to Harry.

Now, on to the mirror; my feelings are the same, the
mirror will
return to the story, nothing more. It's a handy device
just like the
Cloak and the Map. The Order now knows that failing to
keep Harry
informed and failing to give him a fast easy effective
method of
communication is very much to everyone's detriment. 

Whether the matching mirror, or the mirror's
counterpart, will be at
the Order's headquarters, or whether Hermione will
simply create a
matching set of mirrors is difficult to say. But the
re-appearance of
the mirror in no way confirms, or in my opinion
implies, comminication
with Sirius; it merely says that in the future, Harry
will use it as a
handy communication device.

One devilish advantage JKR has in this type of
interview is that she
can deny the person asking a question any kind of
dialog. It's
Question then Answer, but no room or time for debate,
discussion, or
any kind of follow up. Certainly, if there had been
the opportunity
for discussion and follow up, she would have been
force to correct her
mistake about Percy's age relative to Charlie. For
someone who is
engaged in 'mystery', this format is very well suited
to her needs.

Just a few thoughts.

bboy_mn



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 5
   Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 06:49:36 -0000
   From: "Molly Rahe" <molly at elizabethjewelry.com>
Subject: Weasleys Ages-The last and final post you
will ever need

O.K. Folks! I made a post at 6.30 a.m. this morning
and yes, it was
129 posts ago, and most of you don't have the time to
slog through
every message since the chat, so I thought I would
recap what I said.

Every fact is founded in canon or an actual quote from
J.K.R. herself.

People, we have a flint.
We can not guess as to weather or not Charlie left
school early or if
there was no quidditch finals those years. When
looking objectively at
the facts given to us, by the books and by J.K.R., we
have to come to
the conclusion that there is a definate discrepency.

Fact One:
Bill is in his late twenties in GoF. from past
interview with J.K.R.
late twenties are anything after 26. So he is at least
27 in GoF.
Charlie has won the quidditch cup for gryffindor seven
years before
Ron enters Hogwarts, making him either 23 or 24 when
Ron enters 
Hogwarts.
 Charlie would then be either 27 or 28 in OotP.
In this new interview, she has the boys ages spaced
out every two
years. So in OotP, Bill is most likely 29 or 30

Then we get to Percy. It is fact that Bill is the age
he is by a quote
from J.K.R. herself, and that Charlie is two years
younger. It all
fits too with all the book canon.

But Percy, whew! This is the Flint. He is only 19-20
by book canon
(OotP).So how can J.K.R. call him only two years
younger than Charlie,
who she established as two years younger than Bill,
Who she stated in
an interview as being at least 29 or 30 in OotP.

I smell a flint. Either statement she made could be
wrong. The book
could be wrong, althought, as it is published, this is
all jsut
speculative. The whole thing is so very wrong. She
either is
deliberatly lying to us (GASP!) or she made a boo-boo.
A flint.

The original post is below. It is a bit different than
this one as I
worked the exact ages out better here. But it is the
same.









Posted at 6.30 in the morning after being up all night
for the 4:00
a.m. chat




"O.K. I am realy at a loss here. It seems our beloved
author has made a
small error, or someone please point me in the right
directing. I am
getting all my info from interviews found on The
Lexicon and the books

According to JKR herself, Bill is at least 28 in book
5. Charlie is at
least 14 years older than Harry, because it had been 7
years since
Charlie has been in school by the time Harry arrived
(the not winning
a quidditch cup since Charlie thing). In this new
interview, she
states that there is two years between the boys. So
according to both
of her interviews;
When Harry is 11, Charlie is least 25.
Bill would be 27, as he has to be two years older than
Charlie
When oOtP comes about, Charlie is about 29. Bill is
31.
However, in this interview, she has Percy being only
two years younger
than Charlie, making him 27, which he is most
definatly not.
Oh! Thats it, this is way to contradicting for me! I
need help!

(Its only peoples ages Molly, get a grip!)"

 OK I'm prone to forgetting things but where does it
say it was seven years since they had won the quiddich
cup? I remember seven years since the house cup but
all I can find for the QC is "I tell you, we're going
to win that Quidditch cup for sure this year," said
Fred. "We haven't won since Charlie left, but this
year's team is going to be brilliant. You must be
good, Harry, Wood was almost skipping when he told
us".


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster
http://search.yahoo.com



From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu  Fri Mar  5 16:08:49 2004
From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 16:08:49 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat - What was not said - IV -   RIP Ron
In-Reply-To: <c29fnv+p1bq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2a8mi+m4ah@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92206


> Samnanya
I was really puzzled as to why Ron might die. I mean what sin has Ron 
ever committed? 
Then i thought about the 7 Deadly Sins .... and then it hit me --- an 
obvious "sin" since book 1 -- gluttony. Throughout the series, JKR 
rarely misses an opportunity  to describes Rons eating excesses - 
most recently in the last chapter of OOP. In fact, chocolate frogs 
are nearing extinction due to his prodigious appetite.
In thinking of the 7 deadly sins, I then tried to figure which of the 
"good guys" either succumbed or was in danger of succumbing, and what 
their moral shortcomings were and I arrived at the following......
> 
> Pride - Gilderoy Lockhart (not dead but not all there either)
> Greed - Ludo Bagman (i'd give 50 to 1 against his surviving)
> Anger - Hagrid
> Gluttony - Ron
> Sloth - Mundungus (he just seems to be the definitive slothy type)
> Envy - Fudge (envious of Dumbledore's power and prestige)
> Lust - hmmmmm..... Bill Weasley and the EEEEEnglish lessons?
------------
This was an interesting post and it made me think 'wait--isn't Ron 
guilty of a whole lot more than just this one?'  I mean, afterall, 
you began this by wondering 'what sin is he guilty of'.....

Pride - Harry comments more than once how Ron wouldn't accept money 
or handouts. He has to have the twins secretly buy his dress robes.

Anger - Ron's temper is a favorite button to push for Malfoy & co...

Gluttony - Ron's infamous appetite (as mentioned before)

Sloth - Ron's efforts(or lack thereof) in regards to his homework and 
want to use Hermione for copying, etc...

Envy - Ron's envy of Harry's fame, money, supposed 'luck' (the whole 
big GoF fight thing...)

Lust - Ron's suceptibility to Veelas and his nearly undeniable 
crushing on Hermione...it's thus far led him to a few obvious bouts 
of jealousy...

So--that's all seven.  Hmm.  What was the point of all this?  Oh yes, 
you wondered what sin's he's ever been guilty of...well, I'd say 
nobody's without sin (what fun would that be!?!) but if you judge a 
character's 'life expectancy by their 'goodness'....then I think we 
should recall Firenze saying, 'The innocent are always the first to 
go.'  

Arya




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Mar  5 16:11:41 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 16:11:41 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Harry and Hermione together per JKR chat?
In-Reply-To: <c28168+ui59@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2a8rt+66hm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92207

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" 
<jferer at y...> wrote:
> 
>> My idea of "clues" is what we see of the developing 
personalities and relationships, not in a tiny cue here and a tiny 
cue there. Seen in the thematic way, I see Harry and Hermione 
growing closer and closer all the time; Harry identifying with the 
way Hermione thinks and hearing her voice inside; Hermione 
knowing just what Harry needs and exerting herself for it with 
intelligence and even ruthlessness if needed.  <<

You know, this sort of relationship sounds way too much like 
transference to be healthy. How could Harry ever be 
sure it wasn't his neediness that had drawn her to him? How 
could she?

Is there any indication that Hermione identifies with the way 
Harry thinks or hears his voice inside when she's got a difficult 
decision to make, or that he cares what *she* needs? I think 
Harry would be happier in a more equal relationship, myself. 

Pippin




From siriuslove71 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  5 16:17:13 2004
From: siriuslove71 at yahoo.com (Diana_Sirius_fan)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 16:17:13 -0000
Subject: Snape NOT a Vampire (Was  The Marauders are all Gryff...
In-Reply-To: <cb.3e0e67f6.2d79fa7a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <c2a969+out8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92208

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, CareALotsClouds at a... wrote:
> I think JK is very awkward when questions are asked by her fans 
that are, in 
> her mind, have something to do with the plot and the question has 
some truth 
> in it.  So she does answer them awkwardly, not wanting to answer so 
she answers 
> in the way of 'Wait and see'.  I think you are right in saying that 
if she 
> says this then she knows that we are going to know there is 
something up.  But 
> then again, with this Vampire question she said 'No'.  I think she 
knows it is 
> discussed so much that she didnt want to spoil to many theories.  
Fact of the 
> matter is she said 'No'.  She may of said 'erm' to throw us of but 
she said 
> 'No' and I dont think she would lie to her fans.  But like Diana 
says she has 
> left it open for very hopeful !vampireSnape fans, it does sound 
like a 'No' 
> though
> 
> Personally I always thought the theory was a bit silly, but thats 
just IMHO.
> 
Actually she did not say "Erm, No". The 'fact of the matter' is that 
she said "Erm, I don't think so" which is very different from no.  
Diana




From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Fri Mar  5 16:21:59 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 16:21:59 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat  "The Crucial and Central Question"
In-Reply-To: <c2a0oq+t2pt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2a9f7+r266@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92209

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" <susiequsie23 at s...> 
wrote:

> I do NOT agree with you here, Kneasy.  I agree that he rushed into 
> things w/o fully thinking through the potential consequences and 
> without a well-thought-out plan of action.  But he WAS choosing!  
> Even if DD set up the scenario(s) [and I think he may well have, 
> particularly w/ SS/PS], Harry still was choosing whether to act or 
> not.  He could have sat on his ass & said, "Well, *I'M* not gonna be 
> the one who goes after the Stone!  I'm just a kid!"  Just because it 
> was done with adolescent enthusiasm and without much thought as to 
> how he would handle what he might encounter, he was still CHOOSING 
> **and** choosing because he wanted to STOP THE EVIL GUY.  How is that 
> not choosing his side?
> 

Maybe it's my jaundiced attitude and love of indulging in a bun-fight on
site that  makes me stick to my guns, but let's see what I can do.
Oh, and fair warning, I see possible problems with semantics and the
definitions of words when employed in differing usages looming. Just the
sort of nick-picking analysis to relish.

Let's clear one thing out of the way first; if he did make a speech about
only being a kid and so not about to go after the Stone, would that put
him on the side of evil? No, as I'm sure you'd agree. As a corollary just
because he does go after the Stone it does not guarantee that it is an 
expression of a commitment to a conscious decision to fight evil in
the same way as, say, DD has made an assumed commitment to fight
against it.

But he's only a kid, you might reply. Exactly. He's only a kid and he doesn't
understand what he's getting into. Neither does Hermione. Neither have
been raised in the WW where tales of Voldy and the DEs are the stuff of
nightmares. Ron might, but he's not renowned for his forward planning
either. He's heard the tales but does he *really* believe that things can
be as bad as they say? Besides, Harry is the WW hero, what can go wrong?

Harry acts as if the whole escapade were on a par with sneaking out for
the night-time confrontation that got them into detention with Draco.
His attitude is one of "I know better than McGonagall. She wouldn't
listen, so I'll show 'em!" What sort of a decision is that? Mostly one made
in response to frustration with grown-ups I expect.

If as you suggest, it was all set up by DD (and I don't necessarily disagree
with you - there's a few aspects to the whole episode that make my mind 
itch) it adds weight to my contention that his side was chosen for him.
DD sets the scene, winds up Harry like a clockwork  mouse, and off he
goes, doing what DD wants him to do. Same in CoS. When Malfoy presents 
the School Governors demand that he step down, what does he do? He 
speaks to the invisible Harry ".. help is always given at Hogwarts to those 
who ask for it." Talk about a nod being as good as a wink to a blind horse!
He might as well have said "I expect you to sort it out, Harry!" 

He also obviously knows the score in PoA. Not only are there (IMO) well
founded suspicions about the presence of Lupin and the unlikelihood of
DD not knowing Scabbers secret, there he is again suggesting the use of
the Time-turner. Not, you will note, "That is a very dangerous situation,
Harry, I'll have to do something about it." It's "Here you go - this'll help
you to  get back to the Dementors." To a thirteen year old boy.

Nor do I believe that he couldn't find out who spelled the Goblet of Fire.
I'm damn certain he knew. Just as he knew that Crouch!Moody was a fake.
Note that DD expresses no concern whatsoever that Harry's name emerged.
Why not? No surprise, no concern, no investigation. How plausible is that
from someone supposedly with Harry's best interests as his main concern?
You really think he didn't know what was going on? Of course he did.
Crouch could use Polyjuice to  imitate Moody's body, but not his mind
and memory. DD and Moody were old friends, for heavens sake! In an
entire school year DD  had no suspicions? Rubbish.

To a fully paid-up member of The League of Conspiracy Theorists, there
is no doubt. DD shuffles things around until Harry's options are reduced
to a minimum. Harry is on rails and running on DD's timetable. His choices
are more-or-less non-existent and DD sits back and monitors his 
progress. I've often posted about DD as Puppetmaster, the cold, calculating
mind that is planning Voldy's downfall. Harry is an important part of that
plan and the one thing he cannot be allowed is a genuine choice or all could
be lost. 

Harry didn't know it, but he was being trained, both in his magical ability
and his reaction to situations. But now, at the end of OoP, he learns of
the Prophecy and begins to realise that his independence has been a
fiction. He has been assigned as Voldy's enemy from day one. His
parents were not just unfortunate casualties in a war, it was a targeted
action and he was the target. Worse, he is set up as the saviour of the WW. 

Tell me, just what real decisions will he be allowed to make?
We know he doesn't want the role or the responsibility, but can you see
DD allowing Harry to say "No" and letting him slip through his fingers?

Kneasy
 




From Elvishooked at hotmail.com  Fri Mar  5 16:26:25 2004
From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 16:26:25 -0000
Subject: I wish she could at least be quoted right !
Message-ID: <c2a9nh+7tpb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92210

It's a bit annoying to see how people chose to change Rowlings actual 
words when they quote her on here.
There have been lots of different 'quotes' on what she actually 
answered to the question about Snapes' link to vampires. 
Before posting and arguing your views it would be nice if those of 
you who quoted her wrong could at least post what she DID say instead 
of making up what you THINK she said.





From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Fri Mar  5 16:26:55 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 16:26:55 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Harry and Hermione together per JKR chat?
In-Reply-To: <c2a8rt+66hm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2a9of+c9op@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92211

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> 
wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" 
> <jferer at y...> wrote:
> > 
> >> My idea of "clues" is what we see of the developing 
> personalities and relationships, not in a tiny cue here and a tiny 
> cue there. Seen in the thematic way, I see Harry and Hermione 
> growing closer and closer all the time; Harry identifying with the 
> way Hermione thinks and hearing her voice inside; Hermione 
> knowing just what Harry needs and exerting herself for it with 
> intelligence and even ruthlessness if needed.  <<

Pippin replied:
> You know, this sort of relationship sounds way too much like 
> transference to be healthy. How could Harry ever be 
> sure it wasn't his neediness that had drawn her to him? How 
> could she?
> 
> Is there any indication that Hermione identifies with the way 
> Harry thinks or hears his voice inside when she's got a difficult 
> decision to make, or that he cares what *she* needs? I think 
> Harry would be happier in a more equal relationship, myself. 

Susan:
WOO HOO!!  I agree with you, Pippin.  Bring on Miss Ginny!! 

>From the chat:

Field: Do you plan for GInny to take on a major character role in the 
next two books? 
JK Rowling replies -> Well, now that Ginny has stopped being mute in 
Harry's presence I think you can see that she is a fairly forceful 
personality (and she always has been, remember Ron saying that 
she 'never shuts up' in Chamber of Secrets)? 

See?  She's a tough cookie with a mind of her own, nice Quidditch 
skills, and a built-in "bond" with that possession experience.  :-)

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From CareALotsClouds at aol.com  Fri Mar  5 16:51:10 2004
From: CareALotsClouds at aol.com (CareALotsClouds at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 11:51:10 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape NOT a Vampire (Was  The Marauders are all Gryff...
Message-ID: <9e.4f028bd.2d7a09fe@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92212

In a message dated 05/03/04 16:10:08 GMT Standard Time, 
siriuslove71 at yahoo.com writes:


> Actually this whole discussion was brought up because she did not 
> say, "erm, No" like you pointed out.  She said, "Erm, I don't know", 
> which is very different than saying no.  So the 'fact of the matter' 
> is not that she said "no" like you said above but that she said, "I 
> don't know."      Diana

You're right, I read it wrong, but she still didn't say I don't know.

Megan: Is there a link between Snape and vampires? 
JK Rowling replies -> Erm... I don't think so. 

If JK THINKS Snape isn't, then he isn't, because what JK says goes, its her 
story her fact.  We don't know what tone of voice she was using when answering 
this question (bad thing about the internet).  I think she is answering as if 
its really obvious he isnt.  But thats my interpretation.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Fri Mar  5 16:51:18 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 16:51:18 -0000
Subject: Chat - Quidditch captain & Harry being busy
In-Reply-To: <82DD78E0-6EBE-11D8-9058-000393987376@glue.umd.edu>
Message-ID: <c2ab66+kboj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92213

 
> >> Sue said:
> >> When I read this reply, I thought immediately that Ron would be
> >> captain.
>snip<  

> > Joj says:
> > Don't you think it would be very insulting to Harry? He has 
played
> > very well, and will be on the team for the sixth year.
>snip<
 
Maria wrote: 
> Well, i don't think Harry needs the responsibility of being 
Quidditch 
> captain, we have seen that it takes a lot of work, having to 
organize 
> trainings, recruiting, contacting everyone, etc. 
>snip<
Besides, as has been seen before Ron is great at strategy, and that 
would be a great asset as a captain, not 
> just being longer in the team.
> 
> Regarding how busy harry is going to be, something else from the 
chat comes to my mind:
>snip<

> So i'm thinking, if he is going to be busy and he is going to have 
to 
> master his own feelings to be useful, he is probably be doing 
something else besides classes, and something that will arise 
feelings he will have to master: either the feeling of sadness of 
all that has happenned, or feelings of hatred against Snape to 
continue with Occlumency. I am wondering if Occlumency will still be 
useful, and i am 
> guessing that it will be. 

>snip<




I have the feeling Ron will be the captain. It would make him less a 
sidekick and more a companion to Harry. It also gives him a 
leadership role he can really take on.

As to Harry's being busy, and to the statement he won't be with the 
Dursleys very long.....have any of you ever read the many facfics 
where Snape knocks on the front door and says, "Potter, you're 
spending the summer with me...."  Occlumency and remedial potions at 
Snape Manor(Just a thought)

Potioncat




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Fri Mar  5 17:00:55 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 17:00:55 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat  "The Crucial and Central Question"
In-Reply-To: <c2a9f7+r266@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2abo7+eaqk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92214

Susan, originally:
> > I do NOT agree with you here, Kneasy.  I agree that he rushed 
> > into things w/o fully thinking through the potential consequences 
> > and without a well-thought-out plan of action.  But he WAS 
> > choosing!  Even if DD set up the scenario(s) ...Harry was still 
> > choosing whether to act or not.  He could have sat on his ass & 
> > said, "Well, *I'M* not gonna be the one who goes after the 
> > Stone!  I'm just a kid!"  Just because it was done with 
> > adolescent enthusiasm and without much thought as to how he would 
> > handle what he might encounter, he was still CHOOSING **and** 
> > choosing because he wanted to STOP THE EVIL GUY.  How is that 
> > not choosing his side?
> > 

Kneasy:
> Oh, and fair warning, I see possible problems with semantics and the
> definitions of words when employed in differing usages looming. 

Susan:
Semantics, schmemantics.  Let's have at it!

Kneasy:
> Let's clear one thing out of the way first; if he did make a speech 
> about only being a kid and so not about to go after the Stone, 
> would that put him on the side of evil? No, as I'm sure you'd 
> agree. As a corollary just because he does go after the Stone it 
> does not guarantee that it is an expression of a commitment to a 
> conscious decision to fight evil in the same way as, say, DD has 
> made an assumed commitment to fight against it.

Susan:
I'm absolutely with you on the first.  His saying "I'm just a kid" 
would NOT necessarily mean he on the side of Evil.  More than likely 
it would mean he simply had a healthy, normal dose of fear & 
reluctance to get involved.  BUT--and this is a big but for me--Harry 
ISN'T reluctant to get involved.  Look at that "I'M going after it" 
speech in SS/PS again.  He IS choosing, and his reasons are 
presented.  It IS him choosing to work against the evil Voldy & 
thought-to-be-evil Snape.

Kneasy:
> If as you suggest, it was all set up by DD (and I don't necessarily 
> disagree with you) it adds weight to my contention that his side 
> was chosen for him. DD sets the scene, winds up Harry like a 
> clockwork  mouse, and off he goes, doing what DD wants him to do. 
> Same in CoS. <snips>  Nor do I believe that he couldn't find out 
> who spelled the Goblet of Fire. I'm damn certain he knew. Just as 
> he knew that Crouch! Moody was a fake. 
> 
> DD shuffles things around until Harry's options are reduced
> to a minimum. Harry is on rails and running on DD's timetable. His 
> choices are more-or-less non-existent and DD sits back and monitors 
> his progress.

Susan:
His choices are "reduced TO A MINIMUM", but they're still CHOICES.  
In SS/PS, I agree DD is really setting things up--I suspect as a 
test, to see what kind of wizarding skills & what kind of character 
Harry has.  Beyond that, in CoS, PoA & GoF, I don't think DD is 
pulling the strings as much.  He found out a lot about Harry in 
SS/PS.  I believe DD sets the FRAMEWORK--yes, sets the scene, as you 
say--but it's still HARRY'S CHOICE.  He could hit the point where he 
says, "Screw this.  I'm tired of it!" and walk away.  I doubt that he 
will because from what we've seen it's not in his character to do 
so.  He still has the choice, though.

Kneasy:
<A little removed from chronological order...> 
> How plausible is [all this] from someone supposedly with Harry's 
> best interests as his main concern?  <snip>  Harry didn't know it, 
> but he was being trained, both in his magical ability and his 
> reaction to situations.

Susan:
I would say he DOES have his best interests at heart.  Yes, DD is 
grooming Harry to make the BIG CHOICE later on, once he knows the 
prophecy.  And what will Harry NEED if he chooses to face those 
monstrous challenges?  Lots of skills, practice under fire, 
confidence in his fight for the GOOD side.  If DD is setting things 
up--and you think he is a touch more than I do--he's doing so in an 
effort to train Harry up.  

Kneasy:
> But now, at the end of OoP, he learns of the Prophecy and begins to 
> realise that his independence has been a fiction. He has been 
> assigned as Voldy's enemy from day one. His parents were not just 
> unfortunate casualties in a war, it was a targeted action and he 
> was the target. Worse, he is set up as the saviour of the WW. 

Susan:
Not a fiction.  His burden--his CHOICE--*is* heavier than anyone 
else's, but how is that DD's doing?  That's just the facts of life 
for Harry!  DD has been trying to help him prepare for this news.  
BUT IN THE END it WILL still be Harry's choice whether to "do his 
part".  He could rebel, just as he could have rebelled or declined 
all along.  DD is making it less LIKELY, because DD of course wants 
Harry to defeat Voldy.  But I think Harry shows us in SS/PS--shortly 
after he's found out he's a wizard and Voldy killed his parents--that 
it's IN HIM already to fight.  Yes, he's tired; yes, he's angry that 
it's he who has to do it; but he has CHOSEN to fight all along.  

So maybe that IS all semantics over the word "choice"??  For you it 
seems to mean limited options due to behind-the-scenes orchestrations 
of a puppetmaster.  For me it comes down to there being a BIT of a 
choice even in a limited-choice situation.

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From lovefromhermione at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  5 17:49:03 2004
From: lovefromhermione at yahoo.com (Julie Hurdman)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 09:49:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chat response  (motorbike/Ginny's and Molly's names)
In-Reply-To: <159.2f37bd79.2d78a20c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20040305174903.16617.qmail@web40204.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92215

--- eloiseherisson at aol.com wrote:
> From the Chat transcript:
> > > > Rita: Whatever happend to Sirius' flying
> motorbike?
> > > > 
> > > > JK Rowling replies -> Ah, good question.
> You'll find out, but the 
> > > real sleuths among you might be able to guess.
> > > > 
> 
> David:
> > > Interesting...  Theories?
> 

JuHu:

I think Hagrid still has it. I've always thought this
was a little dodgy:

"How did you get here?" Harry asked, looking around
for another boat.

"Flew," said Hagrid.

"*Flew?*"

"Yeah -- but we'll go back in this. Not s'pposed ter
use magic now I've got yeh." (SS US 63-64)

Flew on what? We know from QTTA that no spell has been
invented that enables humans to fly unaided (I'm
moving and I've packed FBAWTFT and QTTA, so I don't
have the exact quote. But you can bet my HP books will
be travelling on my person! *g*). It then goes on to
tell about the development of the broom.

Then in OoP, Hagrid tells Umbridge he tripped over a
friend's broomstick, and says he doesn't fly much
himself, he doesn't think a broom could hold him.
While I know he was mostly babbling, I think there's
quite a bit of truth to this statement.

So, here's how things played out:
-Sirius lends Hagrid the bike, saying "I won't need it
anymore." (PoA US 207)
-Hagrid takes Harry to DD on Privet Drive
-"Well," said DD finally, "that's that. we've no
business staying here..." "Yeah," said Hagrid in a
very muffled voice, "I'll be takin' Sirius his bike
back." (SS US 16)
-In the meantime, Sirius has had his confrontation
with Peter, or is en route and Hagrid is unable to
find him. It almost seems like Sirius meant that he
meant Hagrid to keep it permanently.
-Hagrid takes it home and parks it in the Forbidden
Forest and uses it as needed, because it's an
apparently legal way for him to use magic to get
around.

Hagrid could have gotten to the hut on the rock and
the storm would have covered up the noise. This
doesn't explain what happened to it after Hagrid got
Harry. (Ju entertains herself for a minute, imagining
tiny Professor Flitwick driving a huge motorcycle back
to Hogwarts)

There's my theory, hopefully time will tell if I've
earned the "good sleuth" award!

"It's certainly given them lots to write about."
-Hermione

JuHu, who's beginning to wonder what the huge mystery
is about the Dept. of Mysteries, if all the Death
Eaters, Lupin, Madam Pomfrey, etc. know exactly what
the arch, prophesies, brains and planets are doing
there, and Arthur Weasly doesn't have any idea what
the Unspeakables get up to.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster
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From carolynwhite2 at aol.com  Fri Mar  5 18:01:14 2004
From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 18:01:14 -0000
Subject: Mums in charge (was Re: Shake-up at the Ministry)
In-Reply-To: <c29qal+1kfn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2af9a+7g8i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92216

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" <nkafkafi at y...> 
wrote:
> My vote is for AW for a single reason: I want to see the expression 
> on Percy's face (or at least read JKR's description of it) when he 
> finds out. I think this reason is as good as any.
> 
> Besides, anyone who has managed, with very meager budget, to 
navigate 
> such a large and dynamic family to safe water and good chances for 
> future (if not present) prosperity must be a good Minister. Yes, I 
> know it was Molly who was doing the actual organizing, but this is 
> exactly the mark of a good Minister: He doesn't try to manage 
things 
> himself. 

Carolyn:
What a truly awful thought, Molly the Coddler as the power behind the 
throne. It seems the whole story is becoming one of battling mothers 
protecting their various offspring (Lily and her protection; possibly 
Tom Riddle's mother etc). It would fit JKR's interests and lifestory 
I suppose.




From rredordead at aol.com  Fri Mar  5 18:11:10 2004
From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 18:11:10 -0000
Subject: Shake-up at the Ministry
In-Reply-To: <c29m8h+h682@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2afru+n21q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92217

I'm not clear on who wrote this:
> > The clincher is that JKR always has Hermione being right except 
when excited 
> > and Ron always being wrong except when joking.  Ron joked about 
Gryffindor  having as much chance of wining the Quidditch cup as his 
dad becoming MoM.   Gryffindor won and so will the long shot Weasley.

> > Kneasy
> I agree with you but for slightly different reasons.
> Two  clues from the chat can be tied to gether:
> 1. There is a new Minister
> 2. The Muggle world is starting to notice things.
> This is likely  to cause problems for the Ministry.
> Somebody will  have to take charge and sort  it out.
> OK, who is the MoM expert on Muggles? Arthur.
> Weasleys triumphant!


Mandy here:
I disagree for the reason that the WW is now at war and a strong 
leader is needed to stop the WW from imploding and destroying it's 
self.  As much as I love Arthur, is not a strong leader. In fact he 
is not a leader at all. This is not an insult, as some people are 
just not born to lead.  DD will be called upon, whether he'll take 
it or not, remains to be seen. Would DD put forward Weasley's name 
in his place?  Perhaps. Although if he did, Arthur would simply be a 
puppet leader to DD himself.  And perhaps that's DD plan? But I just 
don't want to see Arthur used in that way.
  
Now if it were peace time I might be inclined to agree with you 
all.  AW might be the best man for the job as far as his muggle 
expertise is concerned. Although if I were a witch, I would not be 
at all confident with a man who has an obsession with plugs 
representing my interests to the muggles.  But unfortunately he does 
appear to be the only man who has any interest in the outside the 
WW. Which is another death blow to the WW, imo, but that's another 
debate. 

It looks like the Office of Muggle Realations is going to get busy 
in the next 2 books anyway.  Just don't make Arthur Weasly MOM if 
you want the WW to exist after Harry's defeated LV.

Cheers, Mandy





From riberam at glue.umd.edu  Fri Mar  5 18:23:13 2004
From: riberam at glue.umd.edu (Maria Ribera)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 13:23:13 -0500
Subject: motorbike
In-Reply-To: <1078509698.8622.68424.m11@yahoogroups.com>
References: <1078509698.8622.68424.m11@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <2A0E44F6-6ED2-11D8-9058-000393987376@glue.umd.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 92218


On Mar 5, 2004, at 1:01 PM, JuHu wrote:

> Hagrid could have gotten to the hut on the rock and
> the storm would have covered up the noise. This
> doesn't explain what happened to it after Hagrid got
> Harry. (Ju entertains herself for a minute, imagining
> tiny Professor Flitwick driving a huge motorcycle back
> to Hogwarts)
>
> There's my theory, hopefully time will tell if I've
> earned the "good sleuth" award!
>
>
I love your theory! it's thoughts were on that line, though i hadn't 
developed them so well. In regards to what happens to the bike after 
Hagrid goes to the rock... well, maybe the bike, like the Ford Anglia, 
has a bit of a mind of itself and can be sent home alone. After all, 
it's magical!




From philstar22 at hotmail.com  Fri Mar  5 03:42:55 2004
From: philstar22 at hotmail.com (philstar222)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 03:42:55 -0000
Subject: Newbie and some questions about Slytherins
In-Reply-To: <20040304031532.28212.qmail@web13508.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c28svv+90ho@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92219

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ms Mo Me <fauntine_80 at y...> 
wrote:
> My question is... are ALL Slytherins pure bloods?


We already know that they cannot all be. Tom Riddle was Slytherin, 
and he was a half-blood. Maybe things have changed since then, but I 
think that house choice has more to do with the way you think than 
than your blood. Slytherins are the people who's strongest 
motivation is to do anything to get what they want. The sorting hat 
chooses your strongest motivation, regardless of whether you are a 
pureblood or not.





From surreal_44 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  5 04:18:56 2004
From: surreal_44 at yahoo.com (Krissy)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 04:18:56 -0000
Subject: Newbie and some questions about Slytherins
In-Reply-To: <c28e8o+tjri@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c28v3g+k7e2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92220

Siriusly Snapey Susan:
>>I'd like to respectfully disagree still.  I think it *is* free 
will.  It's not EASY--in fact, many times it may be dastardly 
difficult--but it is free will.  In the example I gave, I went on to 
talk about high school students I'd had who came from racist homes, 
and the Hogwarts crew are boarding school students, which means 
they're even more free to act/think/learn free of their parental 
influence.  If someone like Sirius could buck the Black family 
traditions & expectations, others could, too.  
 
>>I understand what you're saying about parents holding some 
control, esp. when they're in charge of the pursestrings, but I 
still think most of this comes down to choices, very difficult 
choices.  Even with parental restrictions, there is a degree of 
choice available to young people.  I mean, even if parents forbid 
something, the young person can make it known that they don't agree 
with or approve their parents.  ACTION may be denied, but ATTITUDE 
isn't.  Unthinking acceptance of parental views & stereotypes is 
what I think good education fights against.
>


Actually, I disagree quite strongly with you on this point. I 
completely understand what you are saying. Unfortunately, it's 
the "Hermione" way of thinking; imposing ones ideals and beliefs on 
a totally seperate society. The social structure for wizards is 
quite different than what it is with the Muggles.

In today's society, especially here in America, it's much easier to 
buck traditions and go against the beliefs one was brought up with. 
However, in the wizarding world, I don't think it would be so easy.

First of all, there would be the parents' expectations. Depending on 
the personality of both the child and the parent(s), that alone 
might be enough to close a child's mind against the possibility of 
new ideas. The parents also control the first 10 years of education 
that the children receive; it's not so far-fetched to believe that 
the truth about Muggles is distorted so that they won't know 
anything truthful about Muggles.

Also, I think if I had a father like Lucius Malfoy, I'd be terrified 
to go against him. I'm not a big supporter of the Abused!Draco, but 
I could see how having a father like Lucius would keep me in line. I 
am not certain as to what kind of relationship Draco has with his 
dad. I bet Lucius would not hesitate to kill or curse his family 
members if they moved against him.

I think a major part of the problem is Hogwarts itself. Susan stated 
that "Unthinking acceptance of parental views & stereotypes is what 
I think good education fights against." Unfortunately, I don't see 
Hogwarts doing anything to prevent racism. In fact, I think it 
almost encourages it. The children do indeed need to be educated, 
but Muggle Studies is only an elective, not a required course. The 
students are divided into houses based on personality and as far as 
I've seen, learn nothing of each other. I don't know if I consider 
taht good education or not.

Teachers haven't helped matters by showing favoritism to their own 
houses, and I see them judging people based not just on behavior but 
simply by being in a particular house. My point is, the students are 
not given an education about Muggles, so how can one say that it 
would be a simple matter of over-coming ideas that have been pounded 
into you since you learned to talk?

I hope my ideas make sense to everyone. Thank you for your time.

Cheers,


Krissy





From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Fri Mar  5 04:47:21 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 05 Mar 2004 05:47:21 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HPfGU Geography - Durmstrang
Message-ID: <20040305044721.3B4F42D2239@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 92221

> bboy_mn:
> 
> I have professed many times that the ideal location is the Kola
> Peninsula of Russia near the city of Murmansk. This peninsula is just
> to the north west of Finland.

Kola Peninsula or the country south from it would be even better than Karelia, especially that there are real, although not very high, mountains there.
In my original argument about Durmstrng location I voted against it, because it's behind the Arctic Circle and I think that's an info Hermione would for sure point out.
Also a bit too far from medieval civilization and scope of German influence.

Cheers, Viridis
________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!




From dk59us at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  5 17:16:47 2004
From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 17:16:47 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat - What was not said - I - Harry's Departure from Privet Drive
In-Reply-To: <c299jl+3s2e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2aclv+a90m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92222

Samnanya quoted from JKR's recent chat:
> Adele - Will poor Harry be stuck at the Dursley's all next summer
> JKR - Not all summer, no. In fact, he has the shortest stay in
Privet 
> Drive so far.

Samnanya then added:
 Which to me means that he must leave before his 16th birthday (In SS 
 he leaves with Dursleys 2 days before his 11th Birthday)
 
To which Eustace_Scrubb averred:
  But in PS/SS, Harry returned to Privet Drive after his shopping trip
  to Diagon Alley with Hagrid.  Chapter Six (Canadian pb ed., p. 67)
  starts:
  "Harry's last month with the Dursleys wasn't fun."  That summer,
  the only time Harry wasn't with the Dursleys was from "early the
  next morning" (PS, Canadian pb ed., p. 49) until he returned by rail
  to Little Whinging.  [The movie of course condenses all that and 
  shows Harry leaving King's Cross the same day he got all of his 
  supplies; the more I think about movies, the more I wonder how the
  later ones can possibly make up for the plot gaffes present in the
  first two...after all, school starts on Sept. 1, the prophecy says
  "born as the seventh month dies."  But I digress...]

  So what summer was Harry's shortest at Privet?  Did the Weasleys 
  spring him in COS on his birthday (as the movie shows; don't have 
  the book at hand) or was it later?
  
Cheers,

Eustace_Scrubb





From kat at lisoneil.co.uk  Fri Mar  5 17:39:48 2004
From: kat at lisoneil.co.uk (Kat Armstrong)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 17:39:48 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR Chat
In-Reply-To: <c2a1bo+eo2i@eGroups.com>
References: <c28tjm+tm69@eGroups.com> <c2a1bo+eo2i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <376172068.20040305173948@lisoneil.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 92223

Hi Geoff,

 A reminder of what Geoff typed on:
 Friday, March 5, 2004 at 2:03:36 PM

G> And in addition....

G> "'So what do your oldest brothers do now they've left anyway?'
G> Harry was wondering what a wizard did once he'd finished school.
G> 'Charlie's in Romania studying dragons and Bill's in Africa doing 
G> something for Gringott's', said Ron"

What about if there is 2 years in age between Charlie and Percy, but 3
school years?  If Charlie was born July 1974 and Percy was Sept 1976,
then there would be 2 years in age between them, but 3 school years.

-- 

 Kat                            
 kat at lisoneil.co.uk





From constancevigilance at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  5 18:32:10 2004
From: constancevigilance at yahoo.com (Susan Miller)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 18:32:10 -0000
Subject: How did Hagrid fly? Was:Chat response  (motorbike/Ginny's and Molly's names)
In-Reply-To: <20040305174903.16617.qmail@web40204.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c2ah3a+m98o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92224

--- Julie Hurdman wrote:
> 
> "How did you get here?" Harry asked, looking around
> for another boat.
> 
> "Flew," said Hagrid.
> 
> "*Flew?*"
> 
> Flew on what? We know from QTTA that no spell has been
> invented that enables humans to fly unaided (I'm
> moving and I've packed FBAWTFT and QTTA, so I don't
> have the exact quote. But you can bet my HP books will
> be travelling on my person! *g*). It then goes on to
> tell about the development of the broom.
> 
<snip speculative discussion about flying to the rock on the 
motorbike>

Constance Vigilance:

My vote is for a Thestral trip. This helps solve the riddle of how 
Hagrid could find them on the rock anyway (Thestrals are good at 
finding things), how he could have landed without alerting anyone, 
and how there was no evidence of his transport (the Thestral landed, 
Hagrid dismounted and the Thestral flew away).

CV, congratulating Pippin on wiggling out of the apparently 
overwhelming evidence that Snape is no vampire. Oh, and Quirrell 
Lives!




From yswahl at stis.net  Fri Mar  5 18:40:11 2004
From: yswahl at stis.net (samnanya)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 18:40:11 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Harry and Hermione
In-Reply-To: <c2a9of+c9op@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2ahib+p4cr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92225



jferer
My idea of "clues" is what we see of the developing 
personalities and relationships, not in a tiny cue here and a tiny 
cue there. Seen in the thematic way, I see Harry and Hermione 
growing closer and closer all the time; Harry identifying with the 
way Hermione thinks and hearing her voice inside; Hermione 
knowing just what Harry needs and exerting herself for it with 
 intelligence and even ruthlessness if needed.
 
Pippin
You know, this sort of relationship sounds way too much like 
transference to be healthy. How could Harry ever be 
sure it wasn't his neediness that had drawn her to him? How 
could she?
Is there any indication that Hermione identifies with the way 
Harry thinks or hears his voice inside when she's got a difficult 
decision to make, or that he cares what *she* needs? I think 
Harry would be happier in a more equal relationship, myself. 
 
Susan
WOO HOO!!  I agree with you, Pippin.  Bring on Miss Ginny!! 
....<snips>
She's a tough cookie with a mind of her own, nice Quidditch 
skills, and a built-in "bond" with that possession experience.


Samnanya
(re Pippin)
I never thought I would disagree with Pippin because her theories, 
whether ultimately right or wrong, are always well thought out. But 
this time..... 
I am curious what you mean by "I think Harry would be happier in a 
more equal relationship, myself."?  More equal than what? There is a 
balance in Harry/Hermione that is evident in all of their exploits. 
Harry respects her opinion, which is more based on her Ravenclaw 
tendencies than her Griffindor ones.  She cares for Harry greatly - 
much more than as a friend, and the feeling is mutual. When she is 
injured at the MOM Harry is nearly paralyzed with brainlock. His 
powerful response when Neville says that he feels a pulse is both 
intensely physical and emotional. I have been collecting little 
"clues" all through the series, which I have to dig through to
several 
of my prior posts on this to update.
That said, there are two things that stand in the way of HH. First, 
Harry is not through growing emotionally, especially with LV lurking 
around within, and second, Harry has not had to take the full 
consequences of the results of his actions. Yes, Sirius is dead in 
part because of Harry, but not completely so. Mark my words - Harry 
will learn a serious lesson in Book 6 at the expense of either Ron or 
Luna, as a result of NOT listening to Hermione or Dumbledore.... and 
that brings me to ...  

(re Susan)
Ginny is the wild card here. I would LOVE for someone to theoretize 
about Ginny and the egg symbolism that is rampant in the series.
There 
is the sharing of the egg in the library with Harry - there is the
egg to bird to egg time turner in the MOM that Ginny is fascinated 
with...
There is a lot more about Ginny that is not known and probably wont
be known until book 7, and I am still not convinced that she is who we 
think she is.......
As far as bonds, Harry has as much in common with Luna as he does with 
Ginny, and if her father is killed early in Book 6 like i think will  
happen, and if Luna's mom somehow died trying to save her (as 
presented by Pippin in another of her theories), then Harry has much 
more in common .....  




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Fri Mar  5 18:56:18 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 18:56:18 -0000
Subject: Newbie and some questions about Slytherins
In-Reply-To: <c28v3g+k7e2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2aigi+t2ee@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92226

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Krissy" <surreal_44 at y...> 
wrote:
> Siriusly Snapey Susan:
> >>I'd like to respectfully disagree still.  I think it *is* free 
> will.  It's not EASY--in fact, many times it may be dastardly 
> difficult--but it is free will.  In the example I gave, I went on 
to 
> talk about high school students I'd had who came from racist homes, 
> and the Hogwarts crew are boarding school students, which means 
> they're even more free to act/think/learn free of their parental 
> influence.  If someone like Sirius could buck the Black family 
> traditions & expectations, others could, too.  
>  
> >>I understand what you're saying about parents holding some 
> control, esp. when they're in charge of the pursestrings, but I 
> still think most of this comes down to choices, very difficult 
> choices.  Even with parental restrictions, there is a degree of 
> choice available to young people.  I mean, even if parents forbid 
> something, the young person can make it known that they don't agree 
> with or approve their parents.  ACTION may be denied, but ATTITUDE 
> isn't.  Unthinking acceptance of parental views & stereotypes is 
> what I think good education fights against.
> >
> 
> 
> Actually, I disagree quite strongly with you on this point. I 
> completely understand what you are saying. Unfortunately, it's 
> the "Hermione" way of thinking; imposing ones ideals and beliefs on 
> a totally seperate society. The social structure for wizards is 
> quite different than what it is with the Muggles.
> 
> In today's society, especially here in America, it's much easier to 
> buck traditions and go against the beliefs one was brought up with. 
> However, in the wizarding world, I don't think it would be so easy.
> 
> First of all, there would be the parents' expectations. Depending 
on 
> the personality of both the child and the parent(s), that alone 
> might be enough to close a child's mind against the possibility of 
> new ideas. The parents also control the first 10 years of education 
> that the children receive; it's not so far-fetched to believe that 
> the truth about Muggles is distorted so that they won't know 
> anything truthful about Muggles.
> 
> Also, I think if I had a father like Lucius Malfoy, I'd be 
terrified 
> to go against him. I'm not a big supporter of the Abused!Draco, but 
> I could see how having a father like Lucius would keep me in line. 
I 
> am not certain as to what kind of relationship Draco has with his 
> dad. I bet Lucius would not hesitate to kill or curse his family 
> members if they moved against him.
> 
> I think a major part of the problem is Hogwarts itself. Susan 
stated 
> that "Unthinking acceptance of parental views & stereotypes is what 
> I think good education fights against." Unfortunately, I don't see 
> Hogwarts doing anything to prevent racism. In fact, I think it 
> almost encourages it. The children do indeed need to be educated, 
> but Muggle Studies is only an elective, not a required course. The 
> students are divided into houses based on personality and as far as 
> I've seen, learn nothing of each other. I don't know if I consider 
> taht good education or not.
> 
> Teachers haven't helped matters by showing favoritism to their own 
> houses, and I see them judging people based not just on behavior 
but 
> simply by being in a particular house. My point is, the students 
are 
> not given an education about Muggles, so how can one say that it 
> would be a simple matter of over-coming ideas that have been 
pounded 
> into you since you learned to talk?
> 
> I hope my ideas make sense to everyone. Thank you for your time.
> 
Susan:
Krissy, I appreciate your thoughtful response.  I think this is one 
of those things where slight variations in definitions of words we're 
using makes a difference.  And what I see as possible may be seen as 
impossible to others in different circumstances.  So we agree to 
disagree.  I don't think I like being accused of having a "Hermione 
way of thinking", though.  Yikes!  ;-)

I think you make an EXCELLENT point that Hogwarts isn't necessarily 
doing what I said good education does--fighting against unthinking 
acceptance of stereotypes.  I hadn't even thought about what you said 
re:  Muggle Studies--that it's not required.  Others have posted 
before on how they feel the word "Muggle" itself is used in a 
condescending [at best] way, if not in a derisive [at worst] way.  I 
think you point out a major flaw in the Hogwarts school, in its 
unwillingness to tackle the issue of stereotyping beyond allowing the 
Sorting Hat a few words at the opening feast!

Siriusly Snapey Susan






From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net  Fri Mar  5 18:56:42 2004
From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 12:56:42 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR Chat - What was not said - IV -   RIP Ron
Message-ID: <20040305185642.UENW1634.out006.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 92227

{Samnanya}

> Pride - Gilderoy Lockhart (not dead but not all there either)
> Greed - Ludo Bagman (i'd give 50 to 1 against his surviving)
> Anger - Hagrid
> Gluttony - Ron
> Sloth - Mundungus (he just seems to be the definitive slothy type)
> Envy - Fudge (envious of Dumbledore's power and prestige)
> Lust - hmmmmm..... Bill Weasley and the EEEEEnglish lessons?
> 
> Only Cedric was truly innocent, and he died because he strayed 
across 
> the path of the dark lord.....
> Just a theory, but I wonder.........

{Siriusly Snapey Susan}

Have a thought on where you would put Sirius in this?


{Anne}

Well, I don't know what her take on Sirius would be, but I honestly would actually name HIM as 'Anger' instead of Hagrid. Why? Well, first off, we have so many references to Sirius's quick temper ("He has quite the temper, that Sirius Black"). He hangs onto it, very passionately, both in regards to Peter (which kept him sane and alive in Azkaban all those years), and then with Severus--a man who he just can't help baiting and being baited by in return. 

And when that finally reaches the boiling point--well, he and Snape end up at wands-point with each other, and have stopped just short of hexing each other into oblivion. If that's not a man with a bad case of the 'angrys", I don't know what is.

By contrast, Hagrid's anger is few, far between and limited to the moment (Buckbeak being falsely accused, Hermione getting called a 'Mudblood', McGonagall getting blasted by several Ministry officials at once). It's impressive, but it doesn't define Hagrid the same way Sirius's anger defines him.

Just a thought. The rest I agree with...^^

Anne

^^


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Fri Mar  5 19:04:33 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 19:04:33 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Harry and Hermione
In-Reply-To: <c2ahib+p4cr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2aj01+u2k4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92228

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "samnanya" <yswahl at s...> wrote:
> Samnanya
> That said, there are two things that stand in the way of HH. First, 
> Harry is not through growing emotionally, especially with LV 
> lurking around within, and second, Harry has not had to take the 
> full consequences of the results of his actions. Yes, Sirius is 
> dead in part because of Harry, but not completely so. Mark my 
> words - Harry will learn a serious lesson in Book 6 at the expense 
> of either Ron or Luna, as a result of NOT listening to Hermione or 
> Dumbledore....   

Susan:
And another thing you might add to your list of things standing in 
the way:  Harry's friendship with Ron.  Assuming Harry has caught 
some of the signs of Ron's interest in Hermione, he might be 
unwilling to pursue *that* kind of relationship w/ her out of loyalty 
to Ron.

Samnanya: 
> (re Susan)
> Ginny is the wild card here. I would LOVE for someone to theoretize 
> about Ginny and the egg symbolism that is rampant in the series.
> There is the sharing of the egg in the library with Harry - there 
> is the egg to bird to egg time turner in the MOM that Ginny is 
> fascinated with...

Susan:
And I have NO clue about all of that.  It's such interesting imagery!

Samnanya:
> As far as bonds, Harry has as much in common with Luna as he does 
> with Ginny....

Susan:
Other than the loss of a parent, what else do you see that they have 
in common?  Right now I'm thinking of a LOT more between Harry & 
Ginny than I am between Harry & Luna....  But I'm listening!

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From gbannister10 at aol.com  Fri Mar  5 19:23:03 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 19:23:03 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat
In-Reply-To: <376172068.20040305173948@lisoneil.co.uk>
Message-ID: <c2ak2n+daar@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92229

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Kat Armstrong <kat at l...> wrote:
> Hi Geoff,
> 
>  A reminder of what Geoff typed on:
>  Friday, March 5, 2004 at 2:03:36 PM
> 
> G> And in addition....
> 
> G> "'So what do your oldest brothers do now they've left anyway?'
> G> Harry was wondering what a wizard did once he'd finished school.
> G> 'Charlie's in Romania studying dragons and Bill's in Africa 
doing 
> G> something for Gringott's', said Ron"
> 

Kat:
> What about if there is 2 years in age between Charlie and Percy, 
but 3
> school years?  If Charlie was born July 1974 and Percy was Sept 
1976,
> then there would be 2 years in age between them, but 3 school years.

Geoff:
This actually addresses the point which Siriusly Snapey Susan made in 
message 92194. In fact, if Charlie had been born as late as 
August '74 the same would still apply. The cut-off date in 
English/Welsh schools is 31st August.




From tigerfan41 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  5 19:29:15 2004
From: tigerfan41 at yahoo.com (Darrell Harris)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 11:29:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 4308
In-Reply-To: <1078509698.8622.68424.m11@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040305192915.33454.qmail@web10008.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92230

Message: 5
   Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 06:49:36 -0000
   From: "Molly Rahe" <molly at elizabethjewelry.com>
Subject: Weasleys Ages-The last and final post you
will ever need

O.K. Folks! I made a post at 6.30 a.m. this morning
and yes, it was
129 posts ago, and most of you don't have the time to
slog through
every message since the chat, so I thought I would
recap what I said.

Every fact is founded in canon or an actual quote from
J.K.R. herself.

People, we have a flint.
We can not guess as to weather or not Charlie left
school early or if
there was no quidditch finals those years. When
looking objectively at
the facts given to us, by the books and by J.K.R., we
have to come to
the conclusion that there is a definate discrepency.

Fact One:
Bill is in his late twenties in GoF. from past
interview with J.K.R.
late twenties are anything after 26. So he is at least
27 in GoF.
Charlie has won the quidditch cup for gryffindor seven
years before>>>>>>>>>>>>>


I must have missed the canon on this one. We know they
haven't won the house cup for 7 years as for the
quidditch cup all we know is they haven't won since
Charlie was there.

"I tell you, we're going to win that Quidditch cup for
sure this year," said Fred. "We haven't won since
Charlie left, but this year's team is going to be
brilliant. You must be good, Harry, Wood was almost
skipping when he told us.

That could have been 2 years ago.


I apologize for the garbage I managed to post with my
last. My cutting and pasting seems to have gone
spastic.




__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster
http://search.yahoo.com



From willsonkmom at msn.com  Fri Mar  5 19:29:13 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 19:29:13 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Harry and Hermione
In-Reply-To: <c2aj01+u2k4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2ake9+85j7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92231


> Susan:
> And another thing you might add to your list of things standing in 
> the way:  Harry's friendship with Ron.  Assuming Harry has caught 
> some of the signs of Ron's interest in Hermione, he might be 
> unwilling to pursue *that* kind of relationship w/ her out of 
loyalty 
> to Ron.
> 


Yes, if it was Ginny Granger where Ginny was short for Guinevere, 
and we could put Harry and Ron into  Arthur and Lancelot roles, this 
would play well.  But I really see Ron and Hermione very much like 
Arthur and Molly.

On the other hand, if we think of Harry as King Arthur and Ginny as 
Guinevere that works too. (We'll keep all triangles out of it.)

On the other hand (running out of hands here) will the relationship 
issues be settled by 7th year? In spite of working for James and 
Lily, it is kind of young.

Don't you love the fact that JKR tells us that we can figure some of 
this stuff out, given how selom we all agree?

Potioncat




From yswahl at stis.net  Fri Mar  5 19:44:24 2004
From: yswahl at stis.net (samnanya)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 19:44:24 -0000
Subject: Mea Culpa! Harry always at Privet Drive at least until his  birthday
In-Reply-To: <c2aclv+a90m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2alao+mvk5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92232

I was clearly wrong. Harry was always at Privet Drive on his birthday
- but not long afterwards -- left next day in PoA.....
So does Harry split on or before his birthday? That is the question...
....
The departure times ......
SS - see below
CoS - Ron Fred and George spring Harry from the Dursleys 3 (or maybe 
4) days after his birthday ("I know what day it is" pg 8 us pbck, pg 
22-23 bars on windows.... three days later....)
PoA - leaves the day after his birthday ((pg 15 us pbck) after blowing 
up Marge (pg 30 us pbck)
GoF - there was still a fortnight to go before he went back to school 
(pg 20 us hc), birthday cards from HG and RW (pg 21 us hc)
OOP - throws away birthday presents (pg 8 us hc) 
In OOP, he is out of the Dursleys in early August.

So much for movie contamination!


------------------------------------------------------------------
Samnanya quoted from JKR's recent chat:
Adele - Will poor Harry be stuck at the Dursley's all next summer
JKR - Not all summer, no. In fact, he has the shortest stay in
Privet Drive so far.
 
Samnanya then added:
Which to me means that he must leave before his 16th birthday (In SS 
 he leaves with Dursleys 2 days before his 11th Birthday)
  
To which Eustace_Scrubb averred:
But in PS/SS, Harry returned to Privet Drive after his shopping trip
to Diagon Alley with Hagrid.  Chapter Six (Canadian pb ed., p. 67)
starts:
"Harry's last month with the Dursleys wasn't fun."  That summer,
the only time Harry wasn't with the Dursleys was from "early the
next morning" (PS, Canadian pb ed., p. 49) until he returned by rail
to Little Whinging.  [The movie of course condenses all that and 
shows Harry leaving King's Cross the same day he got all of his 
supplies; the more I think about movies, the more I wonder how the
later ones can possibly make up for the plot gaffes present in the
first two...after all, school starts on Sept. 1, the prophecy says
"born as the seventh month dies."  But I digress...]
 
So what summer was Harry's shortest at Privet?  Did the Weasleys 
spring him in COS on his birthday (as the movie shows; don't have 
the book at hand) or was it later?
Cheers,
Eustace_Scrubb




From doliesl at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  5 20:01:30 2004
From: doliesl at yahoo.com (Dolies)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 12:01:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR Chat - What was not said - I - Harry's Departure from Privet Drive
In-Reply-To: <c2aclv+a90m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040305200130.24590.qmail@web13706.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92233

--- Eustace_Scrubb <dk59us at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Samnanya quoted from JKR's recent chat:
> > Adele - Will poor Harry be stuck at the Dursley's all next summer
> > JKR - Not all summer, no. In fact, he has the shortest stay in
> Privet Drive so far.

>   So what summer was Harry's shortest at Privet?  Did the Weasleys 
>   spring him in COS on his birthday (as the movie shows; don't have 
>   the book at hand) or was it later?

Since the question asked about "next summer" and from the way she say it,  I
think she meant THIS coming summer in book 6 that Harry has the shortest stay
in Privet Drive.
She has probably already written the first chapter already, so to her, it has
already happened.  
   
D.



From rredordead at aol.com  Fri Mar  5 20:05:10 2004
From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 20:05:10 -0000
Subject: Ginny for Captain! was: Quidditch captain & Harry being busy
In-Reply-To: <c2ab66+kboj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2amhm+pf55@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92234

>> Sue said:
>> When I read this reply, I thought immediately that Ron would be
>> captain. snip< 
 
> Joj says:
> Don't you think it would be very insulting to Harry? He has 
> played very well, and will be on the team for the sixth year.
> >snip<

> Maria wrote: 
> > Well, i don't think Harry needs the responsibility of being 
> Quidditch  captain, we have seen that it takes a lot of work, 
having to organize  trainings, recruiting, contacting everyone, etc. 
> >snip< Besides, as has been seen before Ron is great at strategy, 
and that would be a great asset as a captain, not just being longer 
in the team.

> Potioncat wrote:
> I have the feeling Ron will be the captain. It would make him less 
a  sidekick and more a companion to Harry. It also gives him a 
> leadership role he can really take on.

Mandy here:
Ginny is going to be Gryffindor Quidditch captain not Ron.  She is a 
far superior player. Ron's good, but I got the impression Ginny was 
very good.   Even Harry was impressed by her and you can't say he 
thought the same about Ron, even though he supported his friend.   
The boys were surprised by her only because she had never shown her 
like for the game before, in fear of being beaten up by her brothers 
for using their brooms.  And you can't deny she's a good leader, 
listener and motivator who won't back down for anyone.  True captain 
material.

The fact that she is younger than Ron doesn't matter; Oliver Wood 
was captain in his 5th year, right?  In PoA, Wood was in 7th year as 
it was his last chance to get the cup before he graduated. So that 
would put him in his 5th year in PS/SS when he put Harry on the team 
as Seeker.  Ginny is about to start her 5th year, so unless there is 
a rule that says you have to have been on the team for a certain 
number of years before being eligible for captain,(which would count 
Ron out as well) I could very easily see Ginny as the Gryffindor 
Quidditch Captain. 

It would be interesting to see how Ron deals with that!  Or even 
Harry for that matter.  

Rock on Ginny!

Mandy






From helenhorsley at hotmail.com  Fri Mar  5 20:08:10 2004
From: helenhorsley at hotmail.com (dorapye)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 20:08:10 -0000
Subject: Mea Culpa! Harry always at Privet Drive at least until his  birthday
In-Reply-To: <c2alao+mvk5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2amna+ak55@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92235

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "samnanya" <yswahl at s...> wrote:
> I was clearly wrong. Harry was always at Privet Drive on his 
birthday
> - but not long afterwards -- left next day in PoA.....
> So does Harry split on or before his birthday? That is the 
question...
> ....
>
> PoA - leaves the day after his birthday ((pg 15 us pbck) after 
blowing 
> up Marge (pg 30 us pbck)
snip!

dorapye:
Actually, it's a week after his birthday in PoA: Aunt Marge arrives 
on his birthday and Vernon announces that she is staying for a week; 
Harry makes his pact with Vernon to try to act normal in order to 
secure the Hogsmeade permission slip, and he manages to make it to 
the last day of her stay by thinking of his Handbook of DIY 
Broomcare whenever Marge is being foul to him...

UK Ed p19: '"Marge'll be here for a week," Uncle Vernon snarled...'
p25: ' At last, at long last, the final evening of Marge's stay 
arrived...'

dorapye




From siskiou at msn.com  Fri Mar  5 20:11:00 2004
From: siskiou at msn.com (Susanne)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 12:11:00 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "die, ron, die"
In-Reply-To: <c2a2bd+coo7@eGroups.com>
References: <c2a2bd+coo7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <735895750.20040305121100@msn.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92236



Hi,

Friday, March 5, 2004, 6:20:29 AM, Robert wrote:

>  Now 
> she's not doing that for Harry and seems to be suggesting that Harry
> will survive.  But now she is using that cutesy answer for Ron.

Well, seeing the smilie she put at the end of her reply, I
suspect she finds something about Ron's future (career?) funny, and isn't
planning on killing him.

Otherwise, I'd hope she wouldn't find in herself to smile,
when thinking of Ron's demise.

She also brings up Ron of her own accord several times, even
when he isn't mentioned in the actual question (the one
about Hermione and Viktor, and there were a couple more that
I can't think of right now), which makes me hope...

-- 
Best regards,
 Susanne                           mailto:siskiou at msn.com

Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/





From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  5 20:14:22 2004
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 20:14:22 -0000
Subject: Weasleys Ages-The last and final post you will ever need
In-Reply-To: <c297u0+8chv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2an2u+gt64@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92237

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Molly Rahe" <molly at e...> wrote:
> Molly Rahe:
>
> O.K. Folks! I made a post at 6.30 a.m. this morning and yes, it was
> 129 posts ago, and most of you don't have the time to slog through
> every message since the chat, so I thought I would recap what I said.
> 
> Every fact is founded in canon or an actual quote from J.K.R. 
> herself.
> 
> People, we have a flint.
> ...edited...
> 
> Then we get to Percy. It is fact that Bill is the age he is by a 
> quote from J.K.R. herself, and that Charlie is two years younger. It
> all fits too with all the book canon.
> 
> But Percy, whew! This is the Flint. He is only 19-20 by book canon
> (OotP).So how can J.K.R. call him only two years younger than 
> Charlie, who she established as two years younger than Bill, Who she
> stated in an interview as being at least 29 or 30 in OotP.
> 
> I smell a flint. ...edited... She either is deliberatly lying to us 
> (GASP!) or she made a boo-boo. A flint.
> 


bboy_mn:

Exactly, her statement about Percy in the recent chat is just plain
wrong; she made a mistake. Remember the original question didn't ask
about Percy, she just tacked that on at the end as an after thought.

And as I explained in another post, this type of interview doesn't
allow for a dialog; there is no discussion, follow-up, or chance to
make a counter point. As JKR is engaged in creating a mystery, this
format lends itself well to perpetuating that mystery, but it does not
lend itself well to clearing up minor point, and does not allow time
or space for the questioner to ask for clarification.

Summary: She made a mistake when she included Percy in her statement.

Conclusion: Disregard that information about Percy.

Just a thought.

bboy_mn





From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Fri Mar  5 20:21:19 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 20:21:19 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat  "The Crucial and Central Question"
In-Reply-To: <c2abo7+eaqk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2anfv+i82t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92238

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" <susiequsie23 at s...> 
wrote:
> 
> So maybe that IS all semantics over the word "choice"??  For you it 
> seems to mean limited options due to behind-the-scenes orchestrations 
> of a puppetmaster.  For me it comes down to there being a BIT of a 
> choice even in a limited-choice situation.

Yes, basically.
A choice that isn't informed is no choice at all in my opinion.
Harry has never before been told what it's all about. As usual, DD agonises,
sheds crocodile tears, commiserates, expresses sympathy, understanding,
and immediately sets to work getting Harry back on the rails. DD's rails.
DD is determined that Harry will not have a choice. Well, maybe one. Follow
my lead or die. Not nice at all.

In PS/SS he expects to find Snape gloating over the Stone. What would have
happened if it had been DE Snape that he'd met? He'd be dead, that's what.
His Voldy-proofing would have been of no earthly good and he didn't know 
enough magic to give Sevvy acne, let alone stop him. Given what he knew,
or thought he knew, his choice wasn't  'brave' or 'good', it was brainless.
Similarly in CoS. What did he plan to do if he met the Basilisk. Close his
eyes, that's what. Wonderful. Brilliant. That'd save Ginny all right.
Making decisions like that it's no wonder he feels close to Sirius; he didn't
think before acting either.

There was a thread on what constitutes bravery back in the summer. I must
look it up; had some hard fought discussions with Laura, I seem to recall.
But the gist of it was that before the term brave or heroic is used the
true dangers of what you are doing must be appreciated and understood. 
I submit that is rarely the case with Harry, which implies that his decisions
are the result of impetuosity. Attention deficit syndrome! Get the Ritalin!

You point to the 'choices'  that Harry has made in the books so far. Suppose
that  at some point he had said "No. I'm not going into the Chamber or
competing in the TWT or saving the Stone." Would his situation be any 
different now? Not much. His magical skills would not be so good, but that's
about all. He would still be Voldy's target, the prophecy would still read the
same, DD would still have his plan. Harry still wouldn't have a choice.

Sometimes I get the feeling that DD is not just the Puppetmaster but is
working to an actual script. He knows what is going to happen, a pre-ordained,
irrevocable sequence of events that leads to his plan coming to fruition.
We agree that he is behind the scenes pulling the strings in PS/SS. Think
what that means. He knew about Quirrell, he knew about Voldy, he knew 
about the protection Harry had, he knew Quirrell would not use spells to
subdue Harry as any normal wizard would. He knows too damn much.
This bothers me. It smacks of time manipulation and I dislike time loop
tales intensely. They're the ultimate in deus ex machina resolutions and 
are pretty much the ultimate cop-out for poor plotting too. I shall be *so*
disappointed if that's the way this turns out.   

If this is the case it means that Harry hasn't had any decisions to make. 
It was already decided.

Kneasy




From doliesl at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  5 20:24:59 2004
From: doliesl at yahoo.com (doliesl)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 20:24:59 -0000
Subject: Snape NOT a Vampire (Was  The Marauders are all Gryff...
In-Reply-To: <9e.4f028bd.2d7a09fe@aol.com>
Message-ID: <c2anmr+e65l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92239


> siriuslove71 at y... writes: 
> > Actually this whole discussion was brought up because she did not 
> > say, "erm, No" like you pointed out.  She said, "Erm, I don't know", 
> > which is very different than saying no.  So the 'fact of the matter' 
> > is not that she said "no" like you said above but that she said, "I 
> > don't know."      Diana
> 
> Megan: Is there a link between Snape and vampires? 
> JK Rowling replies -> Erm... I don't think so. 
> 
> If JK THINKS Snape isn't, then he isn't, because what JK says goes, its her 
> story her fact.  We don't know what tone of voice she was using when 
answering 
> this question (bad thing about the internet).  I think she is answering as if 
> its really obvious he isnt.  But thats my interpretation.

I thought it was pretty obvious, "I don't think so" means NO.  "I dont' think so" 
never means "I don't know." She cannot possibly be unsure of her plans for  
major important character like Snape. (Bill and Charlie's age obviously has 
nothing to with the story nor the characters themselves will ever be that big a 
impact nor important, so a careless flint about them is reasonable, because...their 
ages just simple don't matter! However, Snape is not minor background 
characters like Bill and Charlies....sorry to fans of Bill & Charlie who believe they'll 
be all great and important ;P). As for the uncertainty implication of her words, it 
seems to me that JKR is surprised by this question (like "where on earth you guys 
think there's any vampire link to Snape?") and wonder if it is a trick question.  
Even if is not a clear cut "NO", it sure still simply meant as a denial: "I don't think 
so" = "I don't think there is a link betweeen Snape and vampires." I think that 
settles the vampire issues once and for all. NO, Snape has nothing to do with 
vampire. If he does, JKR would not lie by saying "I don't think so."

Even JKR already told us, "I don't think so," and people still won't let it rest, I 
really have nothing to say (never underestimate HP fans' insistence and denial).  
I'd say, let this particular theory rest in peace, gracefully. 

D.




From doliesl at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  5 20:34:09 2004
From: doliesl at yahoo.com (doliesl)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 20:34:09 -0000
Subject: Submiting Questions  was Re: More on the chat
In-Reply-To: <c2a55t+iesv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2ao81+cfkn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92240

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" <gbannister10 at a...> 
wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Arya" <dequardo at w...> wrote:
> 
> Arya:
> > Hello!!! You could have asked as many questions as you liked just 
> like I did!!  
> > She was not JUST chatting with kids.  There was a post (# 91994 by 
> > Entropymail) that gave everyone one of us the link to where we 
> could submit 
> > all the questions we could dream up starting at 7pm CST.  I don't 


> Geoff:
> I missed the information about submitting times and, as I am always 
> out every day between 10.00 and 11.00am UK time, I wasn't around to 
> get involved directly.
> 
> Mark you, if everybody played your game of submitting multiple 
> questions under different names, no wonder 16000 were put forward. I 
> have just waded through my transcript printout and worked out the 
> following bits of info (assuming I didn't miss any names):
> 
> There were 119 questions answered. 92 were from one person, 7 from 
> people who got two in, 9 from people who managed three and one person 
> managed four. Even allowing for folk using more than one nickname, 
> still a slight unbalance....


I am one of lucky people whose question got picked when I submit them to the 
link Entropymail provide (thanks for notifying us). I sent in about 10 questions, 
and only get one of them on (it was my 1st one as well). I guess they did screen 
the questions and picked the ones sending to JKR. My nickname was Ernie and 
asked her the question about Snape's Boggart and Patronus. Actually I got the 
question from the past Snape discussions on this list. I thought it is a more 
indirect way to probe Snape's mystery, because his greatest fear and guardian 
shield can tell us a lot about his true motives....hence a hint about which side he's 
on and basically what's going with him. Well too bad she answer in her usual 
brickwallness. ;)  She could have give us something to chew on, like if his 
patronus is a form of bird, aquatic or four legged animal...

D.
 





From japanesesearcher at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  5 20:43:13 2004
From: japanesesearcher at yahoo.com (Hitomi)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 20:43:13 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Harry and Hermione
In-Reply-To: <c2ake9+85j7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2aop1+vn0l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92241

Susan wrote:
> > And another thing you might add to your list of things standing 
in 
> > the way:  Harry's friendship with Ron.  Assuming Harry has 
caught 
> > some of the signs of Ron's interest in Hermione, he might be 
> > unwilling to pursue *that* kind of relationship w/ her out of 
> loyalty 
> > to Ron.

Hitomi:
Hey guys, long time no post.  Anyway, thanks Susan, for bringing 
this up (even though we're talking about ships, AGAIN!).  I've never 
understood how we are supposed to take all the instances in the 
books between Hermione and Harry as "clues."  (I know all the 
defenses of this ship, and I've heard how the situations between 
Harry and Hermione have been construed to look as if they might like 
one another, or at least Hermione does, because we know Harry has NO 
interest, but those situations look most blatantly as if the two are 
very close friends.)  I never once thought while reading they would 
end up together.  In Book 1, unlike a lot of the posters on this 
list apparently, I never thought because Hermione is the "heroine" 
that she should be with the "hero."  At that point, they were 
eleven, and I would have been just as happy to see her with Ron as 
Harry.  

And then, after reading Books 2-4, it was settled, Hermione and Ron 
was the ship I took for granted, and I thought every HP fan must see 
it.  Obviously, I found I was wrong upon joining the fandom, but I 
never put Hermione with Ron because I wanted to, unlike a lot of H/H 
shippers.  They just sort of... were.  And I know a lot of people 
want to think JKR is pulling our leg, because she does do that at 
times, but not to this extent.  Mostly, she is honest.  And she has, 
REPEATEDLY, said that there is more going on between Ron and 
Hermione, than Harry and Hermione, that H/H is very "platonic."  
That pretty much settles it for me, but some still argue.  In this 
latest interview, she says something along the lines of "haven't I 
given enough clues already?"  and then answeres the Krum question 
with "Ron would like to know that, too."  Ron, not Harry.  All, the 
clues, unless construed to fit a point, as I said, look as if Harry 
and Hermione are just friends.  Why would she put so much effort 
into showing Ron's jealousy, Hermione's exasperation, if she wasn't 
going to do anything with it?  Same with Ginny's having a crush.  
That's why I sometimes ship H/G, because what was the point of 
having her like him, if JKR doesn't eventually do something with 
it?  

I know some would say JKR is trying to make the school seem 
realistic (having relationships change), but then those same people 
will turn around and argue that every instance in the books means 
SOMETHING, that JKR doesn't do anything without a reason.  It's 
obvious Ron is interested in Hermione, he just hasn't realized it, 
yet.  And it's even more obvious Harry knows.  Like with what he 
thinks at the end of the Yule Ball, after witnessing Hermione and 
Ron's row.  And Harry doesn't care if anyone shows interest in 
Hermione, he has said to many that he and Hermione are only 
friends.  And we have no OBVIOUS clues that Hermione likes Harry, 
unless you want to think that is what they mean.  The clues for 
Hermione liking Ron seem far more plausible, and I'm not saying that 
because I'm some huge R/H shipper - like I said before, they were 
the couple that just WAS to me.  As far as shipping Harry with 
anyone goes, right now he is only friends with any girl we could 
mention.  But Ron does like Hermione.  Last time I checked, it takes 
two to tango.

And I'll comment on Potioncat's post by saying, I agree, I don't 
think there will be ridiculous love triangles, which is what would 
happen if Harry suddenly fancied Hermione (beside the fact, Harry 
suddenly showing interest, after knowing and interacting with her 
for so long, wouldn't make sense - another defense for the H/G 
shippers is that Harry is just beginning to know her).  JKR isn't 
going to turn this into some kind of stupid soap opera, if she did, 
I would lose all faith in her.  Another reason I detest the 
Snape/Lily theories, or the Lily/LV theories.  It isn't her style, 
and I don't think she is going to randomly change the character's 
proclivities and preinclinations, so that ships such as 
Harry/Hermione will make sense.  We've only got two books to go.  If 
Hermione is that girl that kisses Harry, alluding to JKR's latest 
interview, Ron would be very hurt.  It just isn't something I even 
remotely see actually happening.

And commenting on Potioncat's other point, about how long these 
relationships would actually last, discluding the example of James 
and Lily, since the characters are only 17/18 when they leave 
school, some do break apart, like Penelope and Percy (but honestly, 
who'd want to stay with Percy?), but others seem to truly last, such 
as Arthur and Molly, who dated in school as well.  And Ron and 
Hermione if like any other couple, are very similar to his parents.  
I don't know if JKR will let us know if the characters remain 
together, unless she gives us an epilogue, but I have a feeling 
she'll leave us with some idea of permanence, otherwise that would 
be leaving a loose end.

~ Hitomi, who will be the R/H defender among the H/H shippers, 
because she's noticed all the H/H are very adament, as if they have 
something to defend, while many R/H shippers don't even bother, 
because it just seems so... well, why bother?




From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  5 02:39:47 2004
From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (Ms Mo Me)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 18:39:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: SHIP: Re: chat question: will Harry and Hermione be together?
In-Reply-To: <c27uua+us5k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040305023947.91452.qmail@web13501.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92242

Tj wrote:
> I couldn't make heads nor tail of this question...
> 
> Will Harry and Hermione *will* be together? *sight*
> 
> JRK:  lol not saying but you have enough clues by
> now surely?!

Have you ever noticed when kids like eachother, they
tend to fight a lot over little things?  Ever notice
how Hermione and Ron fight a lot???

Plus, remember how upset Ron got when Viktor took
Hermione to the ball?

Hmmmm?....  

If anyone is going to get together out of the three,
it's Ron and Hermione.

Also, just for personality sake, HP has so many trials
in his life, that a serious relationship would be hard
to maintain for him.  Hence, that is why I think he
had difficulties with Cho.  He has so much on his
mind, he couldn't understand why she was acting so
emotional.
Granted, most boys that age aren't adept in their
knowledge of female emotions, and Harry has some years
of maturing to do.  But, it all fits with his life. 
Like, when he finally finds a "substitute"
parent/mentor (Sirius), he dies.  HP's life is just
filled with too much trajedy.




From sophierom at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  5 20:54:45 2004
From: sophierom at yahoo.com (sophierom)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 20:54:45 -0000
Subject: Shake-up at the Ministry
In-Reply-To: <c2afru+n21q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2apel+isik@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92243

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" 
<rredordead at a...> wrote:
> I'm not clear on who wrote this:
> > > The clincher is that JKR always has Hermione being right 
except when excited and Ron always being wrong except when joking.  
Ron joked about Gryffindor  having as much chance of wining the 
Quidditch cup as his dad becoming MoM.   Gryffindor won and so will 
the long shot Weasley.

> > > Kneasy
> > I agree with you but for slightly different reasons.
> > Two  clues from the chat can be tied to gether:
> > 1. There is a new Minister
> > 2. The Muggle world is starting to notice things.
> > This is likely  to cause problems for the Ministry.
> > Somebody will  have to take charge and sort  it out.
> > OK, who is the MoM expert on Muggles? Arthur.
> > Weasleys triumphant!
> 
> 
> Mandy here:
> I disagree for the reason that the WW is now at war and a strong 
> leader is needed to stop the WW from imploding and destroying it's 
> self.  As much as I love Arthur, is not a strong leader. In fact 
he is not a leader at all. This is not an insult, as some people are 
> just not born to lead.  DD will be called upon, whether he'll take 
> it or not, remains to be seen. Would DD put forward Weasley's name 
> in his place?  Perhaps. Although if he did, Arthur would simply be 
a puppet leader to DD himself.  And perhaps that's DD plan? But I 
just don't want to see Arthur used in that way.
>   
> Now if it were peace time I might be inclined to agree with you 
> all.  AW might be the best man for the job as far as his muggle 
> expertise is concerned. Although if I were a witch, I would not be 
> at all confident with a man who has an obsession with plugs 
> representing my interests to the muggles.  But unfortunately he 
does 
> appear to be the only man who has any interest in the outside the 
> WW. Which is another death blow to the WW, imo, but that's another 
> debate. 
> 
> It looks like the Office of Muggle Realations is going to get busy 
> in the next 2 books anyway.  Just don't make Arthur Weasly MOM if 
> you want the WW to exist after Harry's defeated LV.
> 
> Cheers, Mandy

Sophierom:

I'm not sure that AW is as weak a leader as we might think. First, 
we've seen him in mostly domestic situations. While you could argue 
that Arthur's weakness at home would signal a weakness as MoM, I 
think you can't automatically jump to that conclusion.  Arthur and 
Molly might have agreed that when it comes to the home, she is boss.

Another thing to consider is that Arthur lets people think he's 
weaker than he really is.  We see Arthur through Harry's eyes, and 
Arthur might put on a jollier (and sillier) face for Harry and his 
children that he does in the world outside his home.  I can't 
believe, for example, that Arthur can't really figure out how to use 
muggle money (if not in GOF, then certainly he could have learned by 
OotP).  But I think he acts a little dumb on purpose; he lets Harry 
take charge because Harry's the kid growing up, and Arthur is the 
father figure who wants to give his child some power and a sense of 
confidence.  This might not be the best example (how could using 
muggle money give Harry confidence, you might ask?), but I've known 
people who do little tiny things like that and, without me realizing 
it, I feel more sure of myself, more open, when I'm around them. 
This might actually be a good leadership technique; Arthur can make 
those under him feel like they are actually making decisions and 
serving a purpose, that they are not just following the leader.

Okay, all that being said in Arthur's defense, I actually do agree 
with Mandy: I don't think he would make a good Minister at this 
time.  I think, in a crisis situation such as this (and I believe 
Book 6 will contain a major catrosphe; now that LV can no longer 
manipulate legitmate channels of power like the MoM and the Daily 
Prophet, he'll turn to terrorism and mass murder), the WW will need 
someone who can appear strong.  Arthur can be strong, but he doesn't 
seem very strong. I do think the Minister should be someone we know, 
but s/he doesn't have to be someone we know well. So, my vote is for 
Kingsley Shacklebolt or Madame Bones (as has already been 
suggested). The WW might want to keep their best Aurors in the 
field, so perhaps Kingsley wouldn't be the best of choices, but then 
again, maybe his experience will allow him to lead the fight more 
effectively than could a minister who had no battlefield 
experience.  In either case, both of these characters have shown, in 
their very brief appearances, that they can be levelheaded and fair, 
good qualities for any leader.

Sophierom





From nzcate at hotmail.com  Fri Mar  5 10:26:26 2004
From: nzcate at hotmail.com (nzcate)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 10:26:26 -0000
Subject: Next Minister (was Re: My fav Q and A from todays chat w/ JKR
In-Reply-To: <c29jv9+ke5a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c29kki+k568@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92244

Naama wrote:
 There will also be, of course, be a general revulsion at the present 
MoM leadership - Fudge certainly, but also those who supported him. 
There will probably be another plea for DD to become Minister for 
Magic, which I assume he will refuse. But people will still want 
somebody who is *not* from the present MoM leading group, preferably 
one of the few who stuck by DD during the last year. Arthur Weasly 
fits the bill perfectly. And, don't forget, he is a Weasly - a highly 
respected and influential family (this was made clear by DD at the 
end of CoS). So, he will be seen as a natural candidate from that 
respect.


So I wonder where Fudge's army mentioned by Luna in OoP will come 
into play? I can't see Fudge giving up his position easily.  Could 
there be a battle on two fronts or will Fudge's cronies join up with 
Voldy's troops?

We had the DA in OoP, could we not have the F.A.R.T.S?

Fudge's 
Army of
Really
Terrible
Sneaks


I know, I know, not very classy, but hey, it's late at night in this 
end of the world & I can't sleep! :)
Cate 




From japanesesearcher at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  5 20:57:53 2004
From: japanesesearcher at yahoo.com (Hitomi)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 20:57:53 -0000
Subject: Weasleys Ages- NOT The last and final post you will ever need
In-Reply-To: <c2an2u+gt64@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2apkh+47o7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92245

> bboy_mn:
> 
> Exactly, her statement about Percy in the recent chat is just plain
> wrong; she made a mistake. Remember the original question didn't 
ask
> about Percy, she just tacked that on at the end as an after 
thought.
> 
> And as I explained in another post, this type of interview doesn't
> allow for a dialog; there is no discussion, follow-up, or chance to
> make a counter point. As JKR is engaged in creating a mystery, this
> format lends itself well to perpetuating that mystery, but it does 
not
> lend itself well to clearing up minor point, and does not allow 
time
> or space for the questioner to ask for clarification.
> 
> Summary: She made a mistake when she included Percy in her 
statement.
> 
> Conclusion: Disregard that information about Percy.

Hitomi:
Erm, I'm not going to completely disregard it, because I do think 
she was just pulling that off the top of her head.  What if Percy is 
say, sixteen when he's in fifth year, like Angelina and Cedric being 
seventeen in their sixth year, and Charlie just graduated the year 
before, so Charlie would be eighteen.  Two years.  And Fred and 
George's birthdays are in April so that almost makes Percy three 
years older, but he is still, technically, two years older.  Or 
Charlie could have been like we think Hermione might be, turning 
eleven later in the year, but before the New Year, so that they 
first entered school at the age of ten.  And Percy's birthday could 
be early on in the school year, or he could have been eleven, 
shortly turning twelve when he started school.  What I'm trying to 
say, is that what JKR said could work.

And if anything Percy and Charlie are propably three years apart.  
That would make the most sense, and be just a tiny flint.  I think 
the point, though, is that there isn't a huge age gap between them, 
and we don't know if Charlie always won the Quidditch Cup, so we 
can't use that as evidence.  Anyway, JKR said what she did, and she 
is law.  Maybe she meant something slightly different, but she 
hasn't gone back and edited the books yet, she does makes some 
mistakes when trying to mold the story to how it is meant to be.  
Especially considering she wrote Book 1 ages ago.  Anyway, the 
timeline hasn't been set in stone, and JKR will, more than likely, 
eventually fix it.  What we are supposed to gather is that Arthur 
and Molly had Charlie not too long after Bill, and that all those 
missing child theories are now disproved.

~ Hitomi, who trusts JKR, even when she flints




From dk59us at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  5 20:41:52 2004
From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 20:41:52 -0000
Subject: Mea Culpa! Harry always at Privet Drive at least until his  birthday
In-Reply-To: <c2alao+mvk5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2aomg+1tfa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92246

Samanya kindly checked Harry's departures from Privet Drive and the
earliest is:

PoA - leaves the day after his birthday ((pg 15 us pbck) after blowing
up Marge (pg 30 us pbck)

Eustace_Scrubb:
Thanks! As you say, the question is--on or before his birthday? 
Perhaps he'll finally get a proper birthday party, but where?  The
Burrow or Grimmauld Place?  Or will his departure be prompted by
war-time considerations?

This all has me thinking back to PS/SS again and wondering about
things I hadn't thought odd before:  1) How far from Little Whinging
was the Hut on the Rock?  2) How did Hagrid know it was safe for Harry
to travel by himself from London back to Little Whinging?  3) How did
Hagrid know the Dursleys would have made it back home before Harry got
there? 4) Is Harry as safe in the yard as he is in the house?  I can
see him sitting on the front stoop with Hedwig and his supplies,
twiddling his thumbs as the Dursleys pull back into the driveway,
scarcely able to believe that he's back again and horrified at what
the neighbours are thinking.

Cheers,

Eustace_Scrubb





From paula at jefftrout.com  Fri Mar  5 20:58:38 2004
From: paula at jefftrout.com (paulaboo1013)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 20:58:38 -0000
Subject: Chat:  Motorbike
In-Reply-To: <20040305174903.16617.qmail@web40204.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c2aplu+l2b7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92247

lovefromhermione wrote:
<snip>
> Hagrid could have gotten to the hut on the rock and
> the storm would have covered up the noise. This
> doesn't explain what happened to it after Hagrid got
> Harry. (Ju entertains herself for a minute, imagining
> tiny Professor Flitwick driving a huge motorcycle back
> to Hogwarts)

I have thought this since I reread SS/PS the first time.

At the end of chapter 3, as Harry is waiting for midnight to come is
when the "thunder" starts.  "Dudley's snores were drowned by the low
rolls of thunder that started near midnight"

My thought is that the low rolls of thunder are actually the sound of
the motorbike running.

Paula





From fever264 at Aol.com  Fri Mar  5 20:48:20 2004
From: fever264 at Aol.com (Frank)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 20:48:20 -0000
Subject: "The Crucial and Central Question" and a FEW OTHER important point
In-Reply-To: <c2abo7+eaqk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2ap2k+p5r7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92248

Susan,

I agree with you also. However, I do see what you are trying to get 
at Kneasy. Here is the problem... it is all open to each person's own 
interpretation of it. You chose to go the "Glass is Half Empty 
Route", which is fine and I respect that.

I feel that you are forgetting one thing, you say that DD is perhaps 
purposely preparing Harry and narrowing his choices (for the past and 
upcoming events in his life) down to only one choice, whatever DD 
chooses for him. In a way you are right about DD preparing Harry purposely 
but one aspect is forgot.

Although Harry never chose the life he was given, the reality is... 
that it's just that...he is who he is...and the reality of it in the 
book is REAL. DD understands this, he knows it is Harry's fate, and 
he will one day have to face it. Let's not forget either that this is 
ALL GOING ON in a WORLD much much different than ours, and its no 
uncommon for us to try and understand J.K.'s created universe as 
similar to ours. As "muggles" we are limited ( kind of like snape 
tells harry about reading minds) to our interpretation of the events 
in this world. 

DD knows that Harry's fate is inevitable, choice or not; it was 
prophecised that he would one day have to face this fate.

I feel that Yes, DD has put his hand in helping harry, he has allowed 
harry more leeway than other students, while Harry also has had to 
face challenges and burdens that few "grown wizards" would never have 
faced/lived through.

I think that DD does allow Harry this extra room to decide what he 
wants to do. I think while it is NOT SPECIFICALLY Calculated, DD does 
generally allow for harry to face these challenges fully knowing that 
this is ALL TO HARRY'S BENEFIT. It is giving harry the character and 
experience etc.. to prepare him to face his ultimate fate, 
a "survival of the fittest" if you will.

DD does not plan these events purposely, he even feels regret and 
guilt that Harry has even had to go through this. Let's remember that 
DD could NOT have known what was coming up, or he would have revealed 
the Prophecy earlier, which I feel would have helped Harry out and if 
it were revealed earlier the WHOLE SERIES would probably be different 
( Sirius would probably have died another way, atleast the MoM battle 
scene would never have happened).

You have to also look into the possibility that DD and HARRY could 
have SOME SORT OF Connection/ Blood Relation by the blood line of 
Godric Gryffindor so why would DD intentially put Harry in harms way? 
Lets not also forget DD ability to become invisible, and having said 
that; I would bet that DD has been watching Harry very closely, next 
to him ( literally) all along the way ( most of the time). 

DD did however consciously know what was coming, and was ready to do 
whatever it took to prepare harry. 

DD also knows( if JK stays with the formula she has been using <HEROS 
JOURNEY FORMULA>) that he WILL HAVE TO SACRIFICE HIMSELF in order 
to "FINALIZE" Harrys journey before the "FINAL FIGHT" Between LV & 
HARRY which I think with the SACRIFICE OF DD, he will somehow 
transfer power to Harry allowing the necessities to defeat LV.

If DD will historically sacrifice himself for Harry, if he knows, 
understands and is ready to die for harry ( I think that there was 
another Prophecy which foretold DD's Fate ) HOW can one logically say 
that DD is purposely making decisions for Harry and "puppeting" his 
every move etc...?  It doesn't fit... That is my opinion though...

To each his own.

FRANK




From japanesesearcher at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  5 21:18:18 2004
From: japanesesearcher at yahoo.com (Hitomi)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 21:18:18 -0000
Subject: "die, ron, die"
In-Reply-To: <735895750.20040305121100@msn.com>
Message-ID: <c2aqqq+cph8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92249

Susanne wrote: 
> Well, seeing the smilie she put at the end of her reply, I
> suspect she finds something about Ron's future (career?) funny, 
and isn't
> planning on killing him.
> 
> Otherwise, I'd hope she wouldn't find in herself to smile,
> when thinking of Ron's demise.
> 
> She also brings up Ron of her own accord several times, even
> when he isn't mentioned in the actual question (the one
> about Hermione and Viktor, and there were a couple more that
> I can't think of right now), which makes me hope...
 
Hitomi:
I think she's just joking, because there is also this quote from an 
interview in Time Magazine:

"It's great to hear feedback from the kids. Mostly they are really 
worried about Ron. As if I'm going to kill Harry's best friend. What 
I find interesting is only once has anyone said to me, "Don't kill 
Hermione," and that was after a reading when I said no one's ever 
worried about her. Another kid said, "Yeah, well, she's bound to get 
through O.K." They see her as someone who is not vulnerable, but I 
see her as someone who does have quite a lot of vulnerability in her 
personality. Hermione is me, near enough. A caricature of me when I 
was younger. I wasn't that clever. But I was that annoying on 
occasion. Girls are very tolerant of her because she is not an 
uncommon female type--the little girl who feels plain and hugely 
compensates by working very hard and wanting to get everything just 
so."

So, no, I don't think JKR will be cruel enough to take out Ron, 
especially considering Harry's reaction when he sees the boggart as 
a dead Ron in the Black Manor (when Molly is trying to get rid of 
it).

Anyway, there's my opinion. ;)

~ Hitomi






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  5 21:28:35 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 21:28:35 -0000
Subject: Chat News Snape vamp yet again
In-Reply-To: <c27t8l+5m82@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2are3+219f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92250

> Jo, wanting to know about Snape NOT being a vampire:
> 
> > Could you summarise the clues for me, I missed those.
> 
> Message 92044, "He is NOT, He is NOT" has the relevant quote. And 
> some gloating.
> 
> ~Amanda, still absurdly delighted


I think Jo meant the supposedly obvious clues in the books suggesting
that snape *was* a vampire (generally references to "swooping like a
giant bat" and other similes and metaphors of that variety and such
traits as wearing black and liking or tolerating cold dungeons). i
suggest checking the archives for some of Pippin's posts. Also IIRC,
there's a summary of the pros and cons for the argument in the
fantastic Posts section or the VFAQ, I forget which. But it's water
under the bridge now, hooray!

Carol, who never thought that Snape was a vampire




From jane_starr at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  5 21:42:23 2004
From: jane_starr at yahoo.com (Jane Starr)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 13:42:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Shake-up at the Ministry
In-Reply-To: <c2apel+isik@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040305214223.3315.qmail@web13807.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92251

I think Arthur Weasley could do the job of Minister of
Magic - I just don't think he would want it. It's
going to be a high stress job, and will require high
level management and delegation skills, which he may
have but I bet he doesn't enjoy working that way. For
all his grumbling, I think he gets a kick out of the
hand-on parts of his job - regurgitating toilets and
all. OTOH, maybe not wanting the job would be part of
what would make him a good minister - he does seem
able to ask for help if he needs it and wouldn't stick
the job a moment longer than he had to.

JES
Canada

__________________________________
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Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster
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From tcyhunt at earthlink.net  Fri Mar  5 21:49:37 2004
From: tcyhunt at earthlink.net (Tracy Hunt)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 21:49:37 -0000
Subject: a different 'crucial' question was:Re: "The Crucial and Central Question"
In-Reply-To: <c2anfv+i82t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2aslh+2jsn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92252

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:

<snip lots of great stuff about DD, Puppetmaster>

>He knows too damn much. This bothers me. It smacks of time 
>manipulation and I dislike time loop tales intensely. They're the 
>ultimate in deus ex machina resolutions and are pretty much the 
>ultimate cop-out for poor plotting too. I shall be *so*
>disappointed if that's the way this turns out.   
> 
>If this is the case it means that Harry hasn't had any decisions to 
>make. 
>
>It was already decided.
> 
> Kneasy

Tcy (de-lurking momentarily)

Kneasy, I love reading your posts.  Sometimes I agree, sometimes 
not.  You make me shake my head, laugh and sometimes wish I knew you 
in another life.  But on this one, I have to speak out.  There are 
more than 11,000 of us on this list alone.  We've read and re-read 
the books.  We've analyzed and scrutinized every word of text.  We've 
inferred and conferred.  Perhaps it's all too much.  We've discovered 
mistakes/Flints in characters, math, spells, etc.  Isn't it just a 
bit like American celebrity?  With so large of a magnifying glass, 
can anyone/anything emerge worthy?  We've put JKR's work on a mighty 
pedestal.  Is there an ending or series of explanations that would 
satisfy us all after we've dissected it with our usual vigor?  
Perhaps we've delved too deeply.  What if it ultimately ends up being 
just a great children's tale?  That's ok with me.  I'm great at 
willful suspension of disbelief.

Tcy, who is going back to lurking to ready herself for the barrage of 
howlers for this bit of sacrilege.




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  5 22:03:10 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 22:03:10 -0000
Subject: Disliked Uncle Vernon (was: More on the chat=
In-Reply-To: <c27tk2+u019@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2ateu+sqr6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92253

Tj:
JRK's reply to this question [which character she most dislikes]
struck me as simple but true. Vernon has abused his power/control over
Harry to a frighting degree.  Vernon Dursley had/has a great deal of
power over Harry's early years.  He is Harry's (was) father figure. 
He mentaly and physically abused Harry for 11 years... with
uninterupted spite.  He tells Harry in so many ways that he wished
Harry had never been born.  Vernon has done more damage to Harry than
one can dream of.  He has locked him up, STARVED him, hit him, used
him as a slave, (working in yard, house, kitchen..on and on) demeaned
his every word ... Harry's has said in EVERY book that "don't worry
they'll just be mad I had all of those chances to DIE and didn't." 
This is not a joke Harry really means these words. 
 
I don't like Vernon either.  

Carol:
While it's true that Vernon has abused Harry, he hasn't been alone.
Petunia has either condoned the abuse or engaged in it herself--and
with less excuse than Vernon because she has some understanding of the
magical world and why Harry is as he is. Vernon, however, is not
simply a power-hungry bully like Delores Umbridge (the person I would
expect JKR to dislike most), nor is he a coward like, say, Karkaroff,
as he at least tried to stand up to Hagrid (and later Mr. Weasley) in
an effort to protect his wife and son. In other words, he isn't wholly
contemptible (as Karkaroff and Umbridge are, IMO). He does, I'm almost
certain, love his wife, and it must have taken courage of sorts to
marry a woman he knew to have "abnormal" (magical) relatives.

To me, Vernon is the essence of Muggle misunderstanding of the magical
world. He fears what he doesn't understand, tries to deny its
existence or, failing that, to snuff the magic out of Harry very much
like a nineteeth-century father who wanted to beat the disrespect and
mischief out of his son to prevent him from becoming a criminal. The
more he fails to make Harry "normal" (like himself), the angrier and
more frustrated he becomes. He is the kind of terrified Muggle who, in
earlier centuries, burned or hanged witches (or at least turned in
suspects to the authorities and gleefully watched them hang or burn,
thinking he was seeing demons or corrupters of youth receiving their due).

In other words, he's the flip side of Salazar Slytherin, the reason
that some Wizards and Witches hate Muggles. It's interesting that JKR
takes the trouble of putting us inside his head in the very first
chapter of the first book--our own Muggle perspective slightly
distorted but not yet turned to near-insanity ("Daddy's gone mad,
hasn't he?") by fear. Vernon fears what he can't control, and that
includes both the magical world and its representative in his own
house, Harry.

Carol, who isn't trying to justify Vernon's behavior, just to
understand him--and figure out why JKR would dislike him more than she
does Umbridge




From japanesesearcher at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  5 22:21:47 2004
From: japanesesearcher at yahoo.com (Hitomi)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 22:21:47 -0000
Subject: a different 'crucial' question was:Re: "The Crucial and Central Question"
In-Reply-To: <c2aslh+2jsn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2auhr+6qhn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92254

> Kneasy, I love reading your posts.  Sometimes I agree, sometimes 
> not.  You make me shake my head, laugh and sometimes wish I knew 
you 
> in another life.  But on this one, I have to speak out.  There are 
> more than 11,000 of us on this list alone.  We've read and re-read 
> the books.  We've analyzed and scrutinized every word of text.  
We've 
> inferred and conferred.  Perhaps it's all too much.  We've 
discovered 
> mistakes/Flints in characters, math, spells, etc.  Isn't it just a 
> bit like American celebrity?  With so large of a magnifying glass, 
> can anyone/anything emerge worthy?  We've put JKR's work on a 
mighty 
> pedestal.  Is there an ending or series of explanations that would 
> satisfy us all after we've dissected it with our usual vigor?  
> Perhaps we've delved too deeply.  What if it ultimately ends up 
being 
> just a great children's tale?  That's ok with me.  I'm great at 
> willful suspension of disbelief.
> 
> Tcy, who is going back to lurking to ready herself for the barrage 
of 
> howlers for this bit of sacrilege.

Hitomi:
Tcy, no howlers coming from this direction.  Honestly, I was more 
than in agreement.  I've noticed, on this list especially, that we 
over-analyze everything, pick apart every detail, and most of the 
time for no positive purpose.  There's nothing wrong in doing it, 
discussing books we all enjoy, but a lot of the analytical 
criticisms have brought me down at points, turning much loved 
aspects into something to be questioned.  I think some things we 
need to just take at face value, or admit that JKR isn't making this 
into the fanfiction of mature readers' dreams.  (That being the main 
reason I stay away from the fanfics, I find it sad that many fans 
prefer the fanfiction over the original creator, who is still 
laboring away).  So she doesn't do things how we'd like her to, so 
she makes mistakes - so what?  It doesn't mean her books and 
characters aren't still spectacularly good.  I'm tired of 
questioning everything she does, or has Harry and/or Dumbledore do.

And of course, in our analyses we have predicted accurately, and I'm 
sure we will do so again, but some points like the Graveyard scene: 
was LV talking about Karkaroff, Snape, and Crouch Jr., or was he 
talking about Fudge or someone else?  Is Harry really the one, or 
will JKR for some nonsensical reason have it be Neville, even though 
the entire series is about Harry?  Will Harry and Hermione get 
together, even though Harry shows no interest, and Ron does?  Are LV 
and Tom Riddle two different entities?  Is DD really a time-
traveling Ron?  Will Ron be Quidditch Captain to the insult of 
Harry, and what about Katie?  Will Sirius come back, even after JKR 
has put Harry through a hell with no purpose if Sirius does come 
back?  Are DD and/or Harry evil?  Are Lily and James even Harry 
parents?  Is Remus really James?  Is Harry just dreaming all this up 
in his cupboard?

And maybe some are right, maybe Fudge is actually the DE LV 
mentioned, or maybe Harry will suddenly like Hermione.  I'm not here 
to say I know what JKR is doing.  But I do know after Book 5, when 
during around Book 3, I said if she uses the cliche plot device of 
Harry being prophecied, that that would be stupid, and JKR will 
never do that, I have stuck my foot in my mouth.  I've read loads of 
fantasy with that same plot device, and JKR has used it, but she's 
made it her own, and it wasn't stupid, by any means.  Book 5 was, by 
far, my favorite book of the series as it now stands.  So, again, I 
trust JKR, she knows what she's doing, even though she does make 
mistakes, and if she happens to make OBHWF, or if she has Harry 
become MOM, it doesn't mean the books will be wrong.  I'm sure I'll 
love the next two books, and I try to remember that this is her 
story, not mine.

~ Hitomi, who will always love this series, even if the unthinkable 
happens, and Harry does die, though it may be awhile til she picks 
up Book 7 again




From eloiseherisson at aol.com  Fri Mar  5 22:31:49 2004
From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 17:31:49 EST
Subject: ADMIN: Please Remember Posting Guidelines
Message-ID: <81.6eb261d.2d7a59d5@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92255

Greetings!

We are thrilled that yesterday's web chat has inspired so much enthusiastic 
discussion, but would like to remind you all that we do still have posting 
guidelines (link on home page, http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin ) and that these have 
not been lifted.

Please, please remember to snip quotes, attribute appropriately and restrain 
yourselves from sending in one-liners. Also, please make sure that enthusiasm 
does not manifest itself as testiness. This will make reading the list much 
more pleasurable for all of us and will save the Admin Team from spending the 
weekend sending out Howlers (which we'd really rather not).

Many thanks,

The List Administration Team




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Fri Mar  5 22:39:20 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 22:39:20 -0000
Subject: Some questions (JKR's chat)--Quidditch captain
In-Reply-To: <c29s1n+4g8f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2avio+gdhp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92256

Sue said:
When I read this reply, I thought immediately that Ron would be 
captain.  It seemed to fit her sense of humor also, as Ron is  
constantly thinking he should quit.  I can just hear him saying he is 
going to fire himself.
 
Harry didn't get to be prefect, but he does deserve to be Quidditch 
captain, unless of course, he doesn't want to be. 
 
Joj

Sue again:

Exactly, I don't think Harry will have time to be captain of 
Quidditch.  If he wants it however, he should have it.  If he 
doesn't, Ron has my vote.




From helen at odegard.com  Fri Mar  5 22:41:58 2004
From: helen at odegard.com (Helen R. Granberry)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 14:41:58 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Submiting Questions  was Re: More on the chat
In-Reply-To: <c2ao81+cfkn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000001c40303$1231df20$6401a8c0@helenw1>

No: HPFGUIDX 92257

I am one of lucky people whose question got picked when I submit them to
the 
link Entropymail provide (thanks for notifying us). I sent in about 10
questions, 
and only get one of them on (it was my 1st one as well). I guess they
did screen 
the questions and picked the ones sending to JKR. My nickname was Ernie
and 
asked her the question about Snape's Boggart and Patronus. Actually I
got the 
question from the past Snape discussions on this list. I thought it is a
more 
indirect way to probe Snape's mystery, because his greatest fear and
guardian 
shield can tell us a lot about his true motives....hence a hint about
which side he's 
on and basically what's going with him. Well too bad she answer in her
usual 
brickwallness. ;)? She could have give us something to chew on, like if
his 
patronus is a form of bird, aquatic or four legged animal...

D.

 

WEE!!

Me too! I submitted about 40 questions in all, and the one of mine that
got picked was sort of in the middle. I asked about all kinds of things,
but I tried to make it questions there was some hope of her answering
and would give evidence for particular things rather than straight up
yes or no for big theory related questions. The Tonks question was just
for fun, and a few of mine were kind of silly (Will Neville get a
girlfriend?). I am wondering if *she* picks the questions or do the
screeners? Surely, the screen things, at least in part, and she chooses
from there, because she talked in a later interview with Lizo about
picking what to ask. This is kind of a rare opportunity, because not
only do we know what questions she did entertain, we also know which
ones she didn't. I went back in my browser cache and saved most of them.
I know quite a few people who asked about Ron's eye color, and that did
NOT get answered. Same for Mark Evans related questions. I know quite a
few (including me) who asked vampire!Snape related questions, and that
one was answered. Anyway... the questions I asked (but not all... there
were more, and apologies for leaving out possibly good questions and
asking a few silly ones -- it was late at night!):

http://www.livejournal.com/users/lizardlaugh/69142.html

Anyway... just curious what other people asked that didn't get answered.


Helen/LizardLaugh







From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  5 22:45:17 2004
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 22:45:17 -0000
Subject: Some questions (JKR's chat)--Quidditch captain
In-Reply-To: <c29s1n+4g8f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2avtt+acm5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92258

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "coolbeans3131" <joj at r...> wrote:
>  
> > Sue said:
> > When I read this reply, I thought immediately that Ron would be 
> > captain.  It seemed to fit her sense of humor also, as Ron is 
> > constantly thinking he should quit.  I can just hear him saying he
> > is  going to fire himself.
> 


> Joj says:
> Don't you think it would be very insulting to Harry? He has played 
> very well, and will be on the team for the sixth year. Then to have 
> someone who's on their second year and has only played one good game, 
> after the previous lousy games, be his captain?  
> 
> Harry didn't get to be prefect, but he does deserve to be Quidditch 
> captain, unless of course, he doesn't want to be. 
> 
> Joj

bboy_mn:

Well, the greatest mystery surrounding the Quidditch team is whether
or not Katie Bell will be there next year. Ginny does not mention
Katie when she mentions the Chasers who will be leaving the team. 

So, if Katie is there, as the senior member, I think she will be
captain, that mercifully spares us any conflict between Harry and Ron
on the matter.

If she is not there, I think, or more accurately speculate, that Harry
will indeed be captain, but will not be very good at it. Ron, as a
friend, will try and pick up the slack by advising the team. This I
predict will cause some friction between Harry and Ron, until Harry
finally realizes that Ron does know what he is talking about. At that
time, Harry will give up his captaincy, and arrange for Ron to become
captain. 

Again, just wild speculation, but it's my wild speculation, and I'm
sticking to it.

Just a thought.

bboy_mn







From jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net  Fri Mar  5 22:47:53 2004
From: jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net (Robert Jones)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 22:47:53 -0000
Subject: 5 years! was "die, ron, die"
In-Reply-To: <c2a3d3+g81g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2b02p+3ms3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92259

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vecseytj" <vecseytj at t...> 
wrote:
> 
>  5 years?  Yikes! Seems a bit long. The books and the movies have
> become intertwined.  They are working on 2 movies now  POA, GOF, 
and
> are working on the script for OOTp.  JKR HAS to finish the books 
soon,
> the actors arn't getting any younger.. and she said herself that 
she
> would like the same actors to work on the whole series.  So for 
that
> reason and that reason only, I think that we are going to be seeing
> these books a might bit quicker that 5 years.
> 
> I am sure someone better at math than me is going to prove me 
wrong..
> but, I hope I'm right.  5 years.. eeek!  I won't have any hair 
left. 
> I'll have pulled it all out.  :)
> 
> Tj

Bobby: OK, maybe not 5 years.  But her British publisher recently 
said that Book 6 would not be out before June 2005 and maybe as late 
as June 2006.  That's 2 to 3 years from OOTP.  And if she takes 
another 2 to 3 years for Book 7, that's a mimimum of at least 3 
years from now and a maximum of a little more than 5.  I picked the 
maximum because I think JKR is working very carefully and wants to 
get things just the way she wants them.

But either way, we still a long time to debate the issues.




From gbannister10 at aol.com  Fri Mar  5 22:59:28 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 22:59:28 -0000
Subject: Chat:  Motorbike
In-Reply-To: <c2aplu+l2b7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2b0og+eelb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92260

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "paulaboo1013" <paula at j...> 
wrote:

Paula:
> I have thought this since I reread SS/PS the first time.
> 
> At the end of chapter 3, as Harry is waiting for midnight to come is
> when the "thunder" starts.  "Dudley's snores were drowned by the low
> rolls of thunder that started near midnight"
> 
> My thought is that the low rolls of thunder are actually the sound 
of
> the motorbike running.


Geoff:
Reading the whole section and putting the above in context, I'd be 
inclined to disagree...

"As night fell, the promised storm blew up around them. Spray from 
the high waves splattered the walls of the hut and a fierce wind 
rattled the windows.........

The storm raged more and more ferociously as the night went on. Harry 
couldn't sleep. He shivered and turned over, trying to get 
comfortable, his stomach rumbling with hunger. Dudley's snores were 
drowned by the low rolls of thunder that started near midnight. The 
lighted dial of Dudley's watch...... told Harry he'd be eleven in ten 
minute's time..."

(PS "The Letters from No One" pp.37-38 UK edition)

The sequence suggests that the rolls of thunder have begun around 
about when Harry notices the watch.

If Hagrid had arrived on the motorbike, he would have switched the 
engine off immediately, not left it running for ten minutes or more. 
He doesn't return outside again. We are told...

"He bent down, picked up the door and fitted it easily into its 
frame. The noise of the storm  outside dropped a little...."
(PS "The Keeper of the Keys" p.39 UK edition)

and....

"Hagrid rolled up the note, gave it to the owl which clamped it in 
its beak, went to the door and  threw the owl out into the storm."
(ditto p.43)

I think the thunder is just thunder.




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  5 23:03:01 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 23:03:01 -0000
Subject: JKR chat
In-Reply-To: <c287ga+ogf7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2b0v5+8r0t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92261

<justcarol67 at y...> wrote:
and the fansites getting the "one who won't return" correct--IMO 
has to be Snape (as perceived by LV at the time of the graveyard 
scene) and the coward has to be Karkaroff.
 
 
> Susan:
> Not necessarily, I don't think, Carol.  Why couldn't Snape be the 
> coward who would be punished?  This could explain why there hasn't 
> been a rift between Snape & the Malfoys.  If Lucius believed Snape 
> was the betrayer who'd left forever, he'd sever ties with Snape, 
> wouldn't he?  If, however, Lucius believed Snape was the coward 
> who'd be dealt with, this could still fit.  Sevvie goes back to 
> Voldy [he goes SOMEWHERE at the end of GoF], takes his punishment, 
> and continues on pretending to be a DE while spying for DD.  The one 
> who's left Voldy forever could then easily be Karkaroff or Bagman, 
> if in fact Bagman is a DE.
> 
> Siriusly Snapey Susan

Carol:
I don't think Snape has ever behaved in a cowardly manner, and LV
probably knows him well enough to understand that. Look at his
attempts to prevent Quirrell from getting the sorceror's stone, for
example. Whether LV suspected that snape knew Quirrell's true motives
or not ("where his loyalties lie"), he had to be aware of Snape's
attempts to stop Quirrell. No, Snape can't be mistaken for a coward
even by his enemies. LV knows he's at Hogwarts and knows he didn't flee.

Karkaroff, OTOH, got out of Azkaban by ratting on other DEs, notably
Rookwood, who was arrested because of him and undoubtedly would quite
happily punish him. Karkaroff has a reason to flee and LV, knowing him
and his reasons, has no doubt that he has fled.

I don't think Lucius Malfoy believes Snape has left forever, nor would
he think that Snape is a coward. IMO Snape simply explained to him
that he couldn't apparate from Hogwarts or arouse DD's Suspicions by
leaving the Tri-Wizard Tournament to appear in the graveyard, and
Malfoy passed that explanation on to LV, who was either persuaded or
pretended to be persuaded because he thought that continued
communication between Snape and Malfoy could be useful. Snape, being
Snape, could probably persuade them both.

But whether or not LV was later persuaded that Snape had legitimate
reasons for not being in the graveyard, I think that when the words
were spoken, "the one who has left us forever" referred to Snape and
"the coward" referred to Karkaroff. I can't read it any other way. 


Carol 

P.S. As an afterthought, LV could well have *known* that Karkaroff had
fled Hogwarts, as Crouch!Moody seems to have communicated with him by
owl. (That's how LV knew that Crouch, Sr., was dead.) So it seems to
me quite likely that he knew exactly why neither Snape nor Karkaroff
was present--one was a coward who rightly feared retribution from the
DEs he had betrayed, the other had renounced his DE principles forever
and remained at Hogwarts. (Snape has probably persuaded him otherwise
now, via Malfoy, but IMO LV perceived both Snape and Karkaroff
correctly in the graveyard.) C.




From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Fri Mar  5 23:05:48 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 23:05:48 -0000
Subject: Shake-up at the Ministry
In-Reply-To: <c2a2c1+6f1j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2b14c+r2ne@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92262

snip of other posts
Tj:
snip I was reminded about something DD said in the Chamber of 
Secrets, about the Weasley family. He said that the Weasley's are one 
of our most prominate Wizarding families.  And I think something is 
going to come out about Lucius Malfoy having put the imperious curse 
on Arthur Weasley in the past as well.  I think that everyone was 
taken in by Malfoy and Arthur was left with egg on his face from 
Malfoy.  There MUST be a reason they HATE each other.  And I think 
with Malfoy in jail now is the time for it to hit the front page.  
You know all it takes to win an election is for the public to notice 
you... 
Oh well and I guess all I want is to see Fudge get the boot.  
Tj

This is probably my most "I hope not" theory.  I know there *has* to 
be some back history between the Weasleys and the Malfoys, but I 
prefer to believe it has something to do with loving the same gal, or 
an old family fued.  As a matter of fact, maybe it is the very fact 
that Malfoy could *not* get Arthur with the imperius curse that so 
annoys dear Lucius.

I want for Arthur to be strong and capable, one of the few who is 
able to fight imperius, rather than someone who was victimized by it.

Arthur for Minister!
Sue




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  5 23:14:06 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 23:14:06 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat
In-Reply-To: <c287hb+ibhr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2b1ju+henn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92263

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "suehpfan" <stanleys at s...> wrote:
> karen.lyall at b...> wrote:
> JKR Chat ref:
> Luisa: How old are Charlie and Bill Weasley in relation to their 
> other siblings? 
> JK Rowling replies -> Oh dear, maths. Let me think. Bill is two 
> years older than Charlie, who is two years older than Percy. 
> Taking the above as 'fact' add the seven year rule from POA and 
> The PS/SS quote of not having won "since Charlie left".
> 
> What theories have we got.
> 1) Charlie left school early?
> 2) Charlie left the team earlier than 7th year?
> 3) JKR can't remember what she's already written?
> 
> Let me know if there are any other possibilities, because she's 
> now sent my timeline into mass confusion.
> 
> Karen
>  
> Maybe he did leave early.  Do you have to come back for 6th and 7th 
> years? Not everyone needs to get there Newts.  Since the twins were 
> able to leave early maybe Charlie did too.
>  
> Sam
> 
> Sue: It is also possible that Charlie is two years older but three 
> years ahead in school. IOW, Charlie finished his 7th year just before 
> his 18th birthday and Percy finished after he was 18.
> 
> This still doesn't explain the Quidditch Cup though.

Carol:
But since Percy has just learned to apparate in GoF, it seems more
likely that he's still seventeen and was among the youngest, not the
oldest, in his class. But as you say, an additional year can't solve
the Quidditch Cup discrepancy. There's no way that Charlie could have
won the cup when he was ten or eleven (not yet in school or too young
to be on the team) and then lost it during the years when he was
captain (say fifth, sixth, and seventh years). It doesn't add up; it
can't add up; there's no explanation other than F-L-I-N-T.

Carol, who hopes no one minds her being adamant here but is for once
absolutely certain that she's right




From erinellii at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  5 23:42:08 2004
From: erinellii at yahoo.com (Erin)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 23:42:08 -0000
Subject: Shake-up at the Ministry
In-Reply-To: <c29tij+1022a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2b38g+trgo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92264

Fran:
 
> So what acronym can we come up with for this? W.I.N Weasley is 
> Next...? Sorry not very good with these things. If he does not get 
> the MOM position, at least he should get a promotion. The reason I 
am 
> in this camp is Ron's joking comment, and in my heart I want him to 
> succeed!


I like it!  But maybe... A WIN ?  For Arthur Weasley Is Next, as 
opposed to the Percy for minister people?  (who are delusional, by 
the way)

That said, however, the only way Arthur will be minister is if 
Dumbledore wants him to be.  The WW isn't going to turn to Arthur on 
its own.  They wanted Dumbledore for minister before Fudge, and 
they're going to want him again now.  After being proven right about 
Voldy and capturing most of the henchmen, DD's star is as high as 
it's ever been. 

I can see DD as Minister of Magic. Now that Voldemort is back, just 
wanting to run the school won't seem as good an excuse as it did back 
in 1990. And JKR didn't like the suggestion in the chat that DD is 
too old and tired to fight, which makes it seem to me as though she 
has him continuing in an active role in the next book.

I can also see DD being killed in one of the last two books, and 
Arthur, who has been acting as DD's right-hand man at the ministry, 
*then* stepping up and becoming minister, at the *end* of the books.


Erin




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  5 23:48:31 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 23:48:31 -0000
Subject: My fav Q and A from todays chat w/ JKR
In-Reply-To: <c28ako+htqd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2b3kf+oh7c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92265

Fran:
> Guess I forgot to add the answer about Ron's middle name being the 
> same as the uncle who saw the Grim and died. As for similar comments 
> about Harry, I guess I forgot! I guess that iw waht I like about this 
> group is that everyone has different interpretations of what is to 
> come and what certain clues mean.  I think that Sirius's animagi form 
> being uncannily similar to a Grim was a clue as to his demise which 
> others may disagree. But hey his animal form was Grim-like and he 
> died! 

Carol:
Then again, James's animagus form was a stag, which as far as I know
has no such "grim" implications, and he died long before Sirius did.
The Grim was (IMO) just a red herring, misleading both Harry and the
reader. (Interesting, though, that Trelawney kept seeing it in the
crystal ball, which suggests that she really does see things there but
doesn't necessarily read them correctly. She had no way of knowing
that a big black "dog" was actually prowling the grounds; she'd have
pulled an Uncle Bilius and died of a heart attack if she'd seen him.)

To get back to Sirius, there are hints even in GoF that he's in grave
danger from his own impulsive decisions to leave safety and try to
help Harry. Given his reckless nature and his circumstances, his death
was almost inevitable. It had no connection with his animagus form
whatever. Besides, the Grim foreshadows the death of the viewer, not
of the Grim itself.

Carol, who's pretty sure that Ron isn't going to die despite his
bilious middle name




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Sat Mar  6 00:07:00 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 00:07:00 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat  "The Crucial and Central Question"
In-Reply-To: <c2anfv+i82t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2b4n4+d2nr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92266

Susan:
> > So maybe that IS all semantics over the word "choice"??  For you 
> > it seems to mean limited options due to behind-the-scenes 
> > orchestrations of a puppetmaster.  For me it comes down to there 
> > being a BIT of a choice even in a limited-choice situation.

Kneasy:
> Yes, basically.
> A choice that isn't informed is no choice at all in my opinion.
<big snip> 
> You point to the 'choices'  that Harry has made in the books so 
> far. Suppose that  at some point he had said "No. I'm not going 
> into the Chamber or competing in the TWT or saving the Stone." 
> Would his situation be any different now? Not much. His magical 
> skills would not be so good, but that's about all. He would still 
> be Voldy's target, the prophecy would still read the same, DD 
> would still have his plan. Harry still wouldn't have a choice.
> 
> Sometimes I get the feeling that DD is not just the Puppetmaster 
> but is working to an actual script. He knows what is going to 
> happen, a pre-ordained,irrevocable sequence of events that leads 
> to his plan coming to fruition.
<snip> 
> This bothers me. 
<snip> 
> If this is the case it means that Harry hasn't had any decisions 
> to make. It was already decided.

Susan:
I think I should let this die pretty soon, but I can't just yet.  :-)

I don't want to get into the bravery vs. foolhardyness thing because 
I don't think we'll get anywhere with that argument.  

On the other hand, when you said that things wouldn't be much 
different for Harry if he had chosen to *not* go after the basilisk 
or after the stone, you have a point; it's not *much* of a choice in 
terms of the outcome.  In the end, while there is an advantage [a 
big one, I think] for Harry if he goes and develops his skills and 
learns important things, he's still going to face the same facts of 
life after it's over.  

What I *don't* get in your argument is how much you seem to be 
blaming Dumbledore for this.  How is DD to blame?  How is he 
*orchestrating* Harry's future?  If Harry is Voldy's target...if the 
prophecy is to believed--that Harry & Voldy much face each other 
down at some point--then how is **Dumbledore** behind all this w/ 
some master plan?  If "it's all decided", it's been decided not *by* 
DD but by some larger "fates" or whatever.  

**Unless** you're saying that DD isn't just arranging those things 
which will train & prepare Harry in the way he [DD] thinks will best 
help Harry, but that he's actually **in control** of what will 
happen?  That he knows how it all will end because he's arranged it 
all?  Is that what you're saying?  If it is, I don't agree.  If it's 
not, then I think you need to cut DD some slack.  In short, why is 
the fact that Harry has to face a nasty future DD's doing or DD's 
fault?  

Siriusly Snapey Susan






From astrid at netspace.net.au  Sat Mar  6 00:10:45 2004
From: astrid at netspace.net.au (astridwootton)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 00:10:45 -0000
Subject: Spying Game Part 2
Message-ID: <c2b4u5+r91c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92267






From astrid at netspace.net.au  Sat Mar  6 00:13:50 2004
From: astrid at netspace.net.au (astridwootton)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 00:13:50 -0000
Subject: 40044
Message-ID: <c2b53u+3cqd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92268






From nzcate at hotmail.com  Fri Mar  5 23:14:49 2004
From: nzcate at hotmail.com (nzcate)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 23:14:49 -0000
Subject: "The Crucial and Central Question" and a FEW OTHER important point
In-Reply-To: <c2ap2k+p5r7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2b1l9+pkkb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92269

Frank wrote:
> DD also knows( if JK stays with the formula she has been using 
> <HEROS JOURNEY FORMULA>) that he WILL HAVE TO SACRIFICE HIMSELF in 
> order to "FINALIZE" Harrys journey before the "FINAL FIGHT" Between 
> LV & HARRY which I think with the SACRIFICE OF DD, he will somehow 
> transfer power to Harry allowing the necessities to defeat LV.
> 
> If DD will historically sacrifice himself for Harry, if he knows, 
> understands and is ready to die for harry ( I think that there was 
> another Prophecy which foretold DD's Fate ) HOW can one logically say 
> that DD is purposely making decisions for Harry and "puppeting" his 
> every move etc...?  It doesn't fit... That is my opinion though...

Cate:
Thank you Frank - you have said more eloquently than I did a day ago 
that a sacrifice of a major player is very probable in one of the 
next two books. I had a list of possibles, with DD being my first 
choice: 

1)Dumbledore (a la Obi Wan - "the force is inside you Harry!") - 
Harry is now truly alone in facing Voldy.
2) Snape - the ultimate love/hate act between Snape & Harry & the 
final vindication of Snape's motives all these years.
3) Wormtail - sort of obvious.
4) Rob - after all, he proved himself capable of this in the chess
match in PS (although I'd hate it)
5) Harry - the ultimate "if I die, he dies" scenario - evermore to
be known as "the boy who HAD lived" (hope this is totally wrong)

Any further thoughts?

Cheers,
NZCate




From MadameSSnape at aol.com  Sat Mar  6 00:43:43 2004
From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 19:43:43 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR Chat- Sirius Black
Message-ID: <1d2.1b5503dc.2d7a78bf@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92270

In a message dated 3/5/2004 5:43:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com writes:
And it might be a mistake to conclude that only the Marauders and
Snape have relevant information. Lots of wizards out there that must
know a lot of things. For instance - anyone know if Bagman was at
Hogwarts at the same time as the others? Bet he could tell a tale or two.
And Rita? Hoo! What could she tell us? All sorts of background  stuff,
I'll bet. Endless vistas  of speculation open up bbefore me.
=============
Sherrie here:

I don't know about Bagman, but Rita was 43 in GoF, so is 44 now.  If Snape et 
al. are/would have been 37, Rita would have left Hogwarts the term before 
they arrived, and so would not have any memories of their...er...adventures.

An interesting thought, though - what other possibilities?  What about Hestia 
Jones, or one of the other (so far) peripheral members of the Order?  Or 
Trelawney - didn't SHE attend Hogwarts?

Sherrie
"Unless history lives in our present, it has no future." - George Lopez
PRESERVE OUR CIVIL WAR BATTLEFIELDS!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  6 00:48:43 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 00:48:43 -0000
Subject: Snape NOT a Vampire (Was  The Marauders are all Gryffindors)
In-Reply-To: <c28u0f+siiv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2b75b+ctoa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92271

Diana:
She answers it as "I don't think so" which is neither a yes or 
a no, so we can still think that maybe there is a connection.  I 
just 
do not see how others saw her answer as a "there is no way Snape 
is a 
Vampire" because that is not what was said.    
> 
> 
> Mel:
> What was not said is exactly what you mentioned: "Wait and see" , "I 
> can't tell you that", "I can't give that much away", "Keep reading 
> and you'll find out more". She's pitifully transparent when she's 
> trying to "hide" information.
> So I guess unless she titles book 6 "Harry Potter Determines 
> (Professor)Snape is Not a Vampire" some folks just won't give this a 
> rest. <snip>


Carol:
I agree with Mel here, but I'd like to point out for those who see
ambiguity in JKR's answer that it leans more to the "no" than to the
"yes" side of the scale: "I don't think so" has a "not" in it (I do
*not* think so). If she'd really had any doubts, she would have said,
"I think he might have some connection with vampires," but even that
response would imply doubt. And how could she not know whether one of
her main characters is a vampire? The only doubt she could possibly
have is that he might have some distant connection with vampires, an
idea that she evidently has not thought about, which explains the
"erm." She may even have been trying to figure out why anyone would
ask such a question and what they meant by it.

At any rate, I agree with Mel. JKR clearly was not trying to hide
information or she'd have fudged the question with one of the typical
JKR responses listed above.

Carol, who has always thought that Snape was sufficiently complex
without adding vampire blood to the mix




From kreneeb at hotmail.com  Fri Mar  5 22:31:36 2004
From: kreneeb at hotmail.com (hermionekitten9)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 22:31:36 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Harry and Hermione
Message-ID: <c2av48+8f15@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92272

Hitomi said...
>I know all the defenses of this ship, and I've heard how the 
>situations between Harry and Hermione have been construed to look 
>as if they might like one another, or at least Hermione does, 
>because we know Harry has NO interest, but those situations look 
>most blatantly as if the two are very close friends.) I never once 
>thought while reading they would end up together.

now kitten...
Great post Hitomi,I agree with everything you said about R/H and H/H. 
I decided, after reading "the interview" and since nobody else has 
stood up to say anything I guess I will... I have never been a big 
fan of the big three. Hermione, Ginny, and Luna, don't get me wrong 
I love these girls to death, and I think that they will each play a 
big part in the story, but for Harry? I have read and read and read 
on all three, reasons why they could work, and reasons why people 
think they won't work. 

I believe that much like the H/H ship, people that ship Ginny and 
Luna contort the books to fit their personal preference, in my opinion 
not as bad as the HH ship, people in the HH ship even try to contort 
JKR interviews that so blatantly say that Harry and Hermione are 
friends. Sorry if I'm rude but when I think about the good ship HH, I 
see it in the bottom of the ocean.  I believe when JKR said that Harry 
and Hermione are platonic friends the ship went down...sorry. 

As for Luna, come on...I honestly don't know how people think she will 
be good for Harry, he's going to have a lot of trials in the next two 
books, and people want to pair him up with LUNA? Harry is going to need 
someone that is down to earth, which is not Luna. 

As for Ginny Weasley...someone, I think on this list, called her 
Ron-with-boobs, I LOVED THAT! It totally says it all. That is why I 
can't stand H/G. It's just too perfect! I think that JKR can come up 
with something a lot better then "best friend's little sister" (who 
would be great for Neville). 

Now that I angered 99% of the people on this list, I just wanted to 
say that I would love for Harry to get together with a ghost character, 
someone like Hannah, Lisa, Sally-Anne, (come on... shout it out loud if 
you agree) I have to admit...my heart is set on Susan, but truthfully I 
don't care just as long as it's not Hermione, Ginny, or Luna. I think 
that what was said with the interview could be meant for any girl not 
just Hermione and Ginny. 

In my opinion even with two books left Harry could wind up kissing 
anybody, and I think that it would be great to take a "ghost" girl 
and develop her. Not only will it make for interesting reading, but 
we will get insight into other houses besides Gryffindor, we would 
also have another lead female that isn't one-of-the-guys, is not 
too perfect it will make you want to roll your eyes every five 
seconds, and isn't on the verge of being admitted into St. Mungos.

Kitten...
Who is taking her place as the defender of the underdogs, and is not 
even going to duck at all rotten fruit thrown at her. 
  






From svanhuesen at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  6 00:22:23 2004
From: svanhuesen at yahoo.com (Susan VanHuesen)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 16:22:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Assets & Liabilities of Broken Mirrors
Message-ID: <20040306002223.71701.qmail@web21603.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92273

Greetings-

In response to the mention of the two-way mirror in
the WBD chat yesterday, I began to think of the ways
in which it might be used in the final two books.

As someone else mentioned previously (I cannot check
who, yahoo groups seems to be down just now), it could
be used as a "walkie-talkie" type tool for Harry & Co.
That being said, however, it can been a potential
danger if someone outside of the  D.A. were to get
their hands on a piece of the mirror, therefore
allowing them to eavesdrop. Unless one has to "look" in
the mirror, then the question would be could Harry and
Co. see the intruder?

In regards to Sirius (and perhaps his parents), if
indeed Harry finds that it is a means of communication
with him that still works even while broken, I hope
that someone has the presence of mind and foresight
*not* to try to put it together again. Imagine having
the access to speak to people through the veil, and
then the panic if it were totally destroyed or stolen.
 Keeping the mirror in pieces means that Harry could
put them in different locations for safekeeping; in
his Gringott's vault, his trunk, one in a compact he
could carry around with him, helping to insure that he
would not lose contact with Sirius again.

(Another) Susan
First time posting
Los Angeles





From MadameSSnape at aol.com  Sat Mar  6 00:54:27 2004
From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 19:54:27 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] He's dead, Jim...
Message-ID: <19a.215869f6.2d7a7b43@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92274

In a message dated 3/5/2004 8:39:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
willsonkmom at msn.com writes:
I'm not as experienced with the sleuthing and interpreting JKR talk 
as many of you are, but the "he's pretty quiet these days" seemed to 
contradict the "he's dead" part. 
===========
Sherrie here:

Actually, it's probably just dark humor.  A friend of mine, who was a 
correction officer and EMT, replied once when asked the condition of an inmate who 
had hung up the night before, replied, "Well, his condition is stable.  He's 
still dead."  I read this comment in that same sort of vein (and probably woke my 
neighbors, laughing myself silly...)

Sherrie
"Unless history lives in our present, it has no future." - George Lopez
PRESERVE OUR CIVIL WAR BATTLEFIELDS!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From karen.lyall at blueyonder.co.uk  Sat Mar  6 00:23:23 2004
From: karen.lyall at blueyonder.co.uk (karenlyall666)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 00:23:23 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat
Message-ID: <c2b5lr+7mp7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92275

> karen.lyall at b...> wrote:
> JKR Chat ref (snip):
> JK Rowling replies -> Bill is two years older than Charlie, who 
> is two years older than Percy.
>
> Taking the above as 'fact' add the seven year rule from POA and
> The PS/SS quote of not having won "since Charlie left".
>
> What theories have we got.
> 1) Charlie left school early?
> 2) Charlie left the team earlier than 7th year?
> 3) JKR can't remember what she's already written?
>

Carol:
> But since Percy has just learned to apparate in GoF, it seems 
> more likely that he's still seventeen and was among the youngest, 
> not the oldest, in his class. But as you say, an additional year 
> can't solve the Quidditch Cup discrepancy. There's no way that 
> Charlie could have won the cup when he was ten or eleven (not yet 
> in school or too young to be on the team) and then lost it during 
> the years when he was captain (say fifth, sixth, and seventh years). 
> It doesn't add up; it can't add up; there's no explanation other than 
> F-L-I-N-T. <<<

Carol, I have to agree with you.  My earlier post (see above) was me 
playing devil's advocate.  I really do believe that the book 
information is correct and JKR just got a bit flustered in the Chat 
by a question that involved numbers.

If Bill and Charlie's ages aren't important why always have the 
information to hand?  Rather like the two missing Gryffindor Girls. 

By the way does everyone agree they exist, they just aren't 
important?  She didn't say they didn't exist so they must, right?

That last sentence made so much more sense in my head so I am now 
going to bed.

Karen





From MadameSSnape at aol.com  Sat Mar  6 01:11:21 2004
From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 20:11:21 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape NOT a Vampire (Was  The Marauders are all Gryff...
Message-ID: <1ec.1aa3936b.2d7a7f39@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92276

In a message dated 3/5/2004 9:56:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
foxmoth at qnet.com writes:
The OOP clues are: 
ch4 Snape's refusal to eat at Grimmauld Place
ch 26 Snape's    memory of zapping flies in a darkened room
contrasted with
ch 28 his near-blindness in the brilliantly lit Great Hall, his
pallid appearance "like a plant  kept in the dark"  and his 
preference for deep shade when out of doors. 
=============
Sherrie here:

I don't think it's necessary to stretch to vampirism to explain any of these 
- particularly since the last one isn't even necessarily the case.  

Sharing of food traditionally creates a bond between people - one of the 
reasons why modern-day Witches usually share food at or after rituals.  Snape 
might choose not to eat at Grimmauld Place simply because he doesn't choose to 
share that bond with Sirius.  (Or doesn't want to get caught up in the dinnertime 
madness there... <G>)

Zapping flies in a darkened room?  Sounds like a typical bored teenager to 
me...  If he were a Muggle, he'd probably have had his headphones on, blasting!

As for his "near-blindeness in the Great Hall", I don't think that's 
supported by canon - unless he's had his eyes magically repaired, wouldn't his sight 
have deteriorated significantly in the intervening two decades?  No - I don't 
think he has his nose to the paper because he can't see, not at all.  I think 
it's simply that he's concentrating so hard on what he's writing.  I had a 
professor once (History of the Theatre) who teased me about EXACTLY that same 
thing - after I'd filled two blue exam books with one essay, with my nose 
"gradually approaching touchdown" on the paper.  And no, I didn't wear glasses - still 
don't to this day, nearly three decades later.

Sherrie
"Unless history lives in our present, it has no future." - George Lopez
PRESERVE OUR CIVIL WAR BATTLEFIELDS!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From t.forch at mail.dk  Sat Mar  6 01:22:21 2004
From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 02:22:21 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE: JKR Chat
In-Reply-To: <c2b5lr+7mp7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20040306021130.05b5b6a0@pop3.norton.antivirus>

No: HPFGUIDX 92277

At 00:23 06-03-04 +0000, karenlyall666 wrote:

>Carol:
> > But since Percy has just learned to apparate in GoF, it seems
> > more likely that he's still seventeen and was among the youngest,
> > not the oldest, in his class. But as you say, an additional year
> > can't solve the Quidditch Cup discrepancy. There's no way that
> > Charlie could have won the cup when he was ten or eleven (not yet
> > in school or too young to be on the team) and then lost it during
> > the years when he was captain (say fifth, sixth, and seventh years).

Just to illustrate the point I've worked out the Hogwarts years
of Harry, Percy and Charlie along with the years in which Gryffindor
did not win the Quidditch Cup under the assumption that the answer
in the chat is correct:

Harry's     Percy's   Gryf. not    Charlie's
  years       years     winning       years

                                        1
                            1 . . . . . 2
                1 . . . . . 2 . . . . . 3
                2 . . . . . 3 . . . . . 4
                3 . . . . . 4 . . . . . 5
                4 . . . . . 5 . . . . . 6
    1 . . . . . 5 . . . . . 6 . . . . . 7
    2 . . . . . 6 . . . . . 7 . . . . . 8
    3 . . . . . 7 . . . . . 8 . . . . . 9
    4 . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . .  10
    5 . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . .  11
    6 . . . .  10 . . . . . . . . . .  12

As can be seen the first year Gryffindor didn't win would be
Charlie's second, which would mean that he helped win the Cup
in his first year; and that he nevertheless achieved to become
a legendary Gryffindor Seeker ...

> > It doesn't add up; it can't add up; there's no explanation other than
> > F-L-I-N-T. <<<

Agreed.
And the evidence in the books should, IMO, take precedence here
(i.e. - the answer from the chat should be dismissed).

>By the way does everyone agree they exist, they just aren't
>important?  She didn't say they didn't exist so they must, right?

She not only did not say that they didn't exist - she promised
to try to remember their names during the chat (unfortunately
she didn't succeed) and she immediately knew what was being
asked about.

I can't really see how that can be seen as anything but a firm
confirmation that they do exist.

/Troels




From MadameSSnape at aol.com  Sat Mar  6 01:21:45 2004
From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 20:21:45 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape NOT a Vampire (Was  The Marauders are all Gryff...
Message-ID: <1c2.15f43cf1.2d7a81a9@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92278

In a message dated 3/5/2004 11:10:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
siriuslove71 at yahoo.com writes:
Actually this whole discussion was brought up because she did not 
say, "erm, No" like you pointed out.  She said, "Erm, I don't know", 
which is very different than saying no. 
===========
Sherrie here:

Actually, the quote was, "Erm..no, I don't think so."  Which I read as, 
"Where on Earth did THAT come from?  No!"

Sherrie
"Unless history lives in our present, it has no future." - George Lopez
PRESERVE OUR CIVIL WAR BATTLEFIELDS!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From hickengruendler at yahoo.de  Sat Mar  6 01:29:12 2004
From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 01:29:12 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Harry and Hermione
In-Reply-To: <c2av48+8f15@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2b9h8+of8r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92279

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hermionekitten9" 
<kreneeb at h...> wrote:
 
> Sorry if I'm rude but when I think about the good ship HH, I 
> see it in the bottom of the ocean.  I believe when JKR said that 
Harry 
> and Hermione are platonic friends the ship went down...sorry. 

So do I. But I must admit, I am a Ron/Hermione shipper therefore I am 
slightly biased *cough*. I am especially surprised, that people saw 
it as H/H hint, that he saved her, when Grawo wanted to smash 
Hermione. I mean, Harry is a hero, he would want to save anything, 
especially one of his best friend.
> 
> As for Luna, come on...I honestly don't know how people think she 
will 
> be good for Harry, he's going to have a lot of trials in the next 
two 
> books, and people want to pair him up with LUNA? Harry is going to 
need 
> someone that is down to earth, which is not Luna. 

Again, I agree. I honestly like Luna, but I can't see her with Harry. 
By the way, didn't JKR say, that Harry would be with a girl who was 
in all books, or am I imagine that? That would clearly rule out Luna.
> 
> As for Ginny Weasley...someone, I think on this list, called her 
> Ron-with-boobs, I LOVED THAT! It totally says it all. That is why I 
> can't stand H/G. It's just too perfect! I think that JKR can come 
up 
> with something a lot better then "best friend's little sister" (who 
> would be great for Neville). 

I don't like this much either. Plain and simply because I don't like 
Ginny all that much. I think she's the character with the most 
unconvincing development, especially the way how it was done. 
However, I am afraid that's what we are leading for.
  
> Now that I angered 99% of the people on this list, I just wanted to 
> say that I would love for Harry to get together with a ghost > 
character,   
<snip>
> and I think that it would be great to take a "ghost" girl 
> and develop her. 

So Myrtle is your candidate? She surely wouldn't mind. And JKR told 
us that she's coming back. No, just kidding. Susan Bones might be a 
candidate (though not, if JKR really said that the girl would be in 
every book, because Susan isn't). But I personally want her to remain 
a background character. I don't think it's realistic that everyone 
who lost family members in the first war has to play an important 
part, some just have to remain names. By the way, I don't think the 
name "Bones" bodes very well for her. It's nearly, as if JKR would 
have called her skeleton. Maybe the Bones' family is another one, who 
will be destroyed. I don't like Hannah Abbott, She gets on my nerves, 
therefore big No/No for Harry/Hannah. Well, maybe Lavender or one of 
the Patils? No, I think verything is leading to Harry/Ginny.

Hickengruendler




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  6 01:37:18 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 01:37:18 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat- Sirius Black
In-Reply-To: <c29li0+fr1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2ba0e+505s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92280

Kneasy: 
> I  wasn't  thinking about getting insights *from* Sirius, but *about*
> Sirius. I'd prefer information that helps to explain why things are
> the way they are rather than JKR's frustrating habit of never
> finishing a conversation when someone is just starting to ask the
> right questions.
> 
> JKR told us  that we will find out more about the Snape-Sirius feud
> perhaps other things as well. Wasn't there a hint that the 'Prank' 
> wasn't the only bit of history they had? Maybe those other memories
> Snape deposited into the Pensieve are significant.
> 
> And it might be a mistake to conclude that only the Marauders and
> Snape have relevant information. Lots of wizards out there that must
> know a lot of things. For instance - anyone know if Bagman was at
> Hogwarts at the same time as the others? Bet he could tell a tale or
two.
> And Rita? Hoo! What could she tell us? All sorts of background  stuff,
> I'll bet. Endless vistas  of speculation open up before me.
> 
> Kneasy

Rita is 43 near the beginning of GoF, which makes her considerably
older than Snape and MWPP, who are (or would have been in James's
case) 35 or 36 in GoF. Rita would, however, be close to Lucius
Malfoy's age (he's 41 at the end of GoF), so he was probably two or
three classes behind her. Maybe she knew some of the boys who later
became DEs? (Bellatrix is three years older than Sirius and would have
been a bit too young for Rita to have known well.)

Bagman is still a quidditch player when we see him at his trial or
hearing in the Pensieve, which clearly took place after Karkaroff gave
his information about Rookwood, which in turn seems to have happened
after the Lestranges were in Azkaban. So I'm guessing that Bagman was
in his early twenties then. He could well be about the same age as
MWPP and Snape (a Hufflepuff when they were in Gryffindor and
Slytherin, respectively)?

Anyway, it would be interesting to find out what they know or
remember, but I think we're more likely to hear it from someone in the
Order--Lupin or McGonagall or even Sturgis Podmore, whom we're told by
Mad-Eye looks young in the photo of the old Order. Or at least Sturgis
can give us an update on Azkaban!

Carol




From cora_dee at web.de  Sat Mar  6 00:32:53 2004
From: cora_dee at web.de (cora_dee)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 01:32:53 +0100
Subject: Stopper in Death
Message-ID: <20040306013253.55313c92.cora_dee@web.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 92281

Great group, great discussions! I'm very happy to have found you :)

But now here's a question I didn't see answered before:

You all know Snape's Speech about the art of potion making. And you remember that line about "putting a stopper in death". 

Well ... let's play! If that's the special ability potion making offers to a master - whose death is Snape going to stopper? 

Harry? Dumbledore? Voldemort? Sirius? Anyone else's? 

Wondering,
C.




From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  6 01:39:34 2004
From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (Phyllis)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 01:39:34 -0000
Subject: Convention Alley Guest Speakers
Message-ID: <c2ba4m+errf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92282

The Convention Alley Planning Committee is pleased to announce Steve
Vander Ark and Dr. Judith Robertson as guest speakers for the 2004
Convention Alley conference.

Steve Vander Ark will provide the keynote address at Saturday's
birthday banquet, as well as serve as Master of Ceremonies throughout
the event. Steve is the creator and editor of the Harry Potter
Lexicon website, a comprehensive reference tool on the Potterverse
extensively used by both fans and scholars. Steve is from Grand
Rapids, Michigan (U.S.A.), where he works as a K-8 library media
specialist. He is also a freelance writer and columnist, as well as
the resident director for the Caledonia Community Players.

Dr. Judith Robertson will speak at the Sunday luncheon. Dr.
Robertson is an Associate Professor at the University of Ottawa
(Ontario, Canada), and was recently awarded the Faculty of Education
Prize for Excellence in Teaching. She has published a best-selling
book entitled "Teaching About Genocide and Intolerance," and has
written over twenty articles and chapters that have appeared in peer-
refereed sites in children's literature, English education,
curriculum theory and teacher education.

Convention Alley will be held at the University of Ottawa from July
30 ? August 1, 2004. In addition to presentations by guest speakers,
the conference will feature programming sessions presented by fans
from both the academic and the non-academic worlds, directed
discussion groups and informal opportunities for participants to get
to know one another and to enjoy the city of Ottawa. A highlight of
the convention will be a dinner for all participants to celebrate
Harry's birthday on July 31st.

For more information or to register, please visit:
http://www.conventionalley.org/ .

~Phyllis Morris
for the 2004 Convention Alley Planning Committee






From starropal at hotmail.com  Sat Mar  6 01:48:35 2004
From: starropal at hotmail.com (Star Opal)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 19:48:35 -0600
Subject: Filk - Going Through the Motions
Message-ID: <Law9-F8399xZf16r2d20002bf90@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92283

That Scar With Feeling by Star Opal; filked from Joss Whedon's "Buffy the 
Vampire Slayer: Once More With Feeling".

Going Through The Motions
To the tune of _Going through the Motions_

THE SCENE: Order of the Pheonix; Chapter 1, Dudley Demented
Harry sulkily walks around the neighborhood.

Harry:
Every single day the same arrangement
Want to go and fight the fight
But no, going through this dumb concealment
Nothing there was real?
Things should happen right?
I've been keeping low watching news shows
Looking out for my foe
But I'm just
Going through the motions
Rubbing at my scar
Was that just a backfire from a car?

Always say I'm brave, 'The Boy Who Lived'
Now won't tell me anything
'Harry, don't act rashly.' Like he can talk
He's just patronizing

*Dementors come out of no where*

Dementors:
Time for some fearing

Harry:
Dementor feeling!

Dementors:
For going through hell you're doing well
But really we can tell
That you're just
Going through the motions
We'll take you on right now
Not even half the wizard you-

*Harry does the Patronus Charm*

Dementors:
Ow...

Harry:
The end of summer coming never?
Living with this fear forever?

*Mrs. Figg runs up*

Mrs. Figg:
Keep your wand up, boy!

Harry:
Hey what the!?

Is this really me?
Going through the motions
Anger I can't hide
Can't they even see
That they're not helping me?
Cannot this secrecy
Abide!

_________________________________________________________________
FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar  get it now! 
http://clk.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Sat Mar  6 01:57:11 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 01:57:11 -0000
Subject: JKR chat--Snape the coward or the one left forever?
In-Reply-To: <c2b0v5+8r0t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2bb5n+a40t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92284

justcarol wrote:
> > > and the fansites getting the "one who won't return" correct--
> > > IMO has to be Snape (as perceived by LV at the time of the 
> > > graveyard scene) and the coward has to be Karkaroff.
 
Susan:
> > Not necessarily, I don't think, Carol.  Why couldn't Snape be 
> > the coward who would be punished?  This could explain why there 
> > hasn't been a rift between Snape & the Malfoys.  If Lucius 
> > believed Snape was the betrayer who'd left forever, he'd sever 
> > ties with Snape, wouldn't he?  If, however, Lucius believed 
> > Snape was the coward who'd be dealt with, this could still fit.  
> > Sevvie goes back to Voldy [he goes SOMEWHERE at the end of GoF], 
> > takes his punishment, and continues on pretending to be a DE 
> > while spying for DD.  The one who's left Voldy forever could 
> > then easily be Karkaroff or Bagman, if in fact Bagman is a DE.
 
Carol:
> I don't think Snape has ever behaved in a cowardly manner, and LV
> probably knows him well enough to understand that. No, Snape can't 
> be mistaken for a coward even by his enemies. LV knows he's at 
> Hogwarts and knows he didn't flee.

**********************

Susan:
But what I meant, above, was that Snape didn't COME to the graveyard 
when the dark mark called.  *That's* what I was assuming Voldy meant 
by being cowardly.  I wasn't thinking of a long history of Snape's 
being cowardly--just thinking of this as Voldy's reaction to who 
didn't show that night.

Carol:
> I don't think Lucius Malfoy believes Snape has left forever, nor 
> would he think that Snape is a coward. IMO Snape simply explained 
> to him that he couldn't apparate from Hogwarts or arouse DD's 
> suspicions by leaving the Tri-Wizard Tournament to appear in the 
> graveyard, and Malfoy passed that explanation on to LV, who was 
> either persuaded or pretended to be persuaded because he thought 
> that continued communication between Snape and Malfoy could be 
> useful. Snape, being Snape, could probably persuade them both.

Susan:  This is definitely a possibility, Carol; I just wanted to 
explain what I meant with the "cowardly" possibility.  *Either* way, 
I can't wait to find out!  ;-)

Siriusly Snapey Susan






From jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net  Sat Mar  6 02:10:33 2004
From: jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net (Robert Jones)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 02:10:33 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Harry and Hermione
In-Reply-To: <c2b9h8+of8r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2bbup+qf4o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92285

Three points on H/H shipping:

(1) Harry hasn't shown any romantic interest in Hermy in any of the 
first five books.  There is one trend: They have been growing closer 
as friends.  But that's it.

(2) I don't think we know what kind of boy would make Hermione 
happy.  JKR just has not shown us what is going on in her little 
fifteen year old mind.  After GOF I thought she and Ron were going 
to get together, but in OOTP she only showed annoyance towards him, 
and so I don't think Ron -- at least the Ron we saw in OOTP -- would 
make her very happy for long.

(3) Who says Harry is going to end up with anyone?  He might be 
distracted by a pretty face like with Cho again -- he is a teenage 
boy -- but I doubt he is going to have any serious relationship at 
least in Book 6.  He is going to be too distracted and messed up 
(blaming himself for Sirius's death, believing that he is going to 
kill or be killed, finding out his father was a jerk at one time, 
finding out that DD is not infallible) that I doubt that any of the 
girls he is closest to are going to be interested in him as 
boyfriend material.





From CareALotsClouds at aol.com  Sat Mar  6 02:20:59 2004
From: CareALotsClouds at aol.com (CareALotsClouds at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 21:20:59 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR chat--Snape the coward or the one left forever?
Message-ID: <a3.53758e99.2d7a8f8b@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92286

In a message dated 06/03/04 02:10:30 GMT Standard Time, 
susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net writes:


> But what I meant, above, was that Snape didn't COME to the graveyard 
> when the dark mark called.  *That's* what I was assuming Voldy meant 
> by being cowardly.  I wasn't thinking of a long history of Snape's 
> being cowardly--just thinking of this as Voldy's reaction to who 
> didn't show that night.

How do we know that Snape wasnt at the Graveyard scene?  Ok its veyr unlikely 
considering the fact that that would mean Snape watch Harry being killed by 
Voldy and Snape could of just gone back and told Dumbledore about Voldy being 
back (they made a big deal out of HArry surviving thus telling Dumbledore about 
it).  But despite this, it actually hasnt been ruled out that Snape was 
there.  There was about 30 death eaters there, Voldy didnt talk to them all, maybe 
he just didnt say anything to Snape.  I dont actually believe what Im saying 
but its a possibility.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From vecseytj at tampabay.rr.com  Sat Mar  6 02:50:35 2004
From: vecseytj at tampabay.rr.com (vecseytj)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 02:50:35 -0000
Subject: Shake-up at the Ministry
In-Reply-To: <c2b14c+r2ne@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2be9r+omag@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92287

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "suehpfan" <stanleys at s...> wrote:
> snip of other posts
> Tj:
> snip  And I think something is 
> going to come out about Lucius Malfoy having put the imperious curse 
> on Arthur Weasley in the past as well.  I think that everyone was 
> taken in by Malfoy and Arthur was left with egg on his face from 
> Malfoy.  There MUST be a reason they HATE each other. -snip-
> Tj
> 
> This is probably my most "I hope not" theory.  I know there *has* to 
> be some back history between the Weasleys and the Malfoys, but I 
> prefer to believe it has something to do with loving the same gal, or 
> an old family fued.  As a matter of fact, maybe it is the very fact 
> that Malfoy could *not* get Arthur with the imperius curse that so 
> annoys dear Lucius.
> 
> I want for Arthur to be strong and capable, one of the few who is 
> able to fight imperius, rather than someone who was victimized by it.
> 
> Arthur for Minister!
> Sue

Hi Sue~
I think that Arthur did get zapped by the Imperius curse for 2 reasons.

1~  In GOF, in DADA class when Couch Jr. is showing the unforgiviable
curses, He did it in a very specific order.
     a~  Neville  crutious curse (the one that drove his parents out    
          of their minds.)

      b~  Harry Avada Kadara (sp?) the curse that killed his parents

      c~   Ron imperius curse.. and he couldn't fight it very well at 
            all.  He was still skipping every 3rd step, even when he
            got out of class.  When everyone else was okay.

2~  In COS when Harry got lost in the floo network, and came out in
Knockturn alley.  Harry saw the Malfoys.  He told Ron and Arthur heard
Harry.  He said oh I can't wait to get Malfoy (or something to that
effect) and Molly says "Don't bite off more than you can chew".  And
Arthur is insulted by what his wife has said.


This says to me that Molly knows something we don't know.  And it
involves Malfoy and AW.  

I think that Arthur is a strong person (you have to be to live with 7
children and a bossy wife).  

I like Arthur, and I will like him just as much if not more if he has
had to suffer under the Imperius Curse; as well as, 7 rowdy children
and a small bossy wife who can look like a saber tooth tiger when she
is angry (or scared).

 




From siriuslove71 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  6 02:52:08 2004
From: siriuslove71 at yahoo.com (Diana_Sirius_fan)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 02:52:08 -0000
Subject: Snape NOT a Vampire (Was  The Marauders are all Gryff...
In-Reply-To: <1c2.15f43cf1.2d7a81a9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <c2beco+c8of@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92288

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, MadameSSnape at a... wrote:
> In a message dated 3/5/2004 11:10:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
> siriuslove71 at y... writes:
> Actually this whole discussion was brought up because she did not 
> say, "erm, No" like you pointed out.  She said, "Erm, I don't 
know", 
> which is very different than saying no. 
> ===========
> Sherrie here:
> 
> Actually, the quote was, "Erm..no, I don't think so."  Which I read 
as, 
> "Where on Earth did THAT come from?  No!"
> 
> Sherrie
> > 
I realized right after I sent that message that I misquoted it and 
the whole time I thought I was writing "I don't think so".  About a 
minute after I wrote it I deleted that message and corrected the 
quote but obviously people read it before I had a chance to delete 
it.  Sorry about that,  Diana




From Mhochberg at aol.com  Sat Mar  6 03:47:05 2004
From: Mhochberg at aol.com (Mhochberg at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 22:47:05 EST
Subject: The most satisfying answer in JKR's chat
Message-ID: <19d.215aa0f7.2d7aa3b9@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92289

For me, it was this:

"One of these days - once seven is finished - I'll revise all seven books. "

There were many interesting and exciting bits in the chat but that is my 
favorite. I can look forward, far ahead, to the "writer's cut" of the entire 
series. 

Her comment opens up so much speculation! Not simply revising any Flints and 
correcting timelines but what she might add in the way of new background 
material. 

What changes in motiviation and character behavior would she make? Would 
Vernon Dursley be crueler or more sympathetic? Would Petunia be less sure of 
herself? Dumbledore is so two dimensional in the opening of book 1. What would the 
book be like if we saw more depth in him right away? Would his humor be more 
satisfying or more trivial? 

When I first read book 1, I plugged away through the first few chapters 
thinking, "Oh, no, not another Roald Dahl type book!" Fortunately, things improved 
quickly after Hagrid met the Dursleys. <g> 

---Mary
"Friendship is born at the moment when one person says to another, 'What?! 
You too! Thought I was the only one.'"  (Clive Staples Lewis) 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com  Sat Mar  6 03:53:24 2004
From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 22:53:24 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE: JKR Chat
Message-ID: <68389000.5F3CB9EA.4B073798@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92290

In a message dated 3/5/2004 8:22:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, Troels Forchhammer <t.forch at mail.dk> writes:

>Just to illustrate the point I've worked out the Hogwarts years
>of Harry, Percy and Charlie along with the years in which Gryffindor
>did not win the Quidditch Cup under the assumption that the answer
>in the chat is correct:
>
>Harry's   Percy's  Gryf. not  Charlie's
> years    years   winning    years
>
>                    1
>              1 . . . . . 2
>        1 . . . . . 2 . . . . . 3
>        2 . . . . . 3 . . . . . 4
>        3 . . . . . 4 . . . . . 5
>        4 . . . . . 5 . . . . . 6
>  1 . . . . . 5 . . . . . 6 . . . . . 7
>  2 . . . . . 6 . . . . . 7 . . . . . 8
>  3 . . . . . 7 . . . . . 8 . . . . . 9
>  4 . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . 10
>  5 . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . 11
>  6 . . . . 10 . . . . . . . . . . 12
>
>As can be seen the first year Gryffindor didn't win would be
>Charlie's second, which would mean that he helped win the Cup
>in his first year; and that he nevertheless achieved to become
>a legendary Gryffindor Seeker ...

But wasn't Harry the youngest seeker in a century?  If Charlie was a first year and a Seeker, then Harry would've been the youngest since Charlie, not in a century.  That *is* canon, right?  *looks it up* According to the Lexicon, Harry is the youngest player in 100 years.  So Charlie couldn't have been on the team until at least his second year!

Oryomai
--Who wonders who the first year Quidditch player was 100 years before Harry...



From cristina at prodigy.net  Sat Mar  6 03:55:30 2004
From: cristina at prodigy.net (crisagi1)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 03:55:30 -0000
Subject: Shake-up at the Ministry
In-Reply-To: <c2be9r+omag@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2bi3i+m6fi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92291

I don't think that Arthur was ever under the imperius curse. 

Unfortunately when you have a hate group (Death Eaters, Pure 
Blood "Pushers" etc), and there is someone or a family like the 
Weasleys who can easily be part of their group, but choose not to 
be, it creates a lot of annimosity for that family within that 
group.  They are then labled as sympethizers, or in this 
case 'muggle-lovers' and it can close lots of doors for this family. 
Again, most of these purists tend to have some position of power 
within the community, or else their views wouldn't be as impactful.

Every generation and every culture has a form of these purists in 
their midst.  If you think hard enough you can think of a few in 
your own community.  The ones that are easiest to recall are the 
ones in positions of power.

Lucious and Arthur have more than enough for antagonistic feelings 
for each other.  Lucious believes Arthur and his family turned their 
back on their heritage, one which he feels they should be proud of.  
Arthur feels that purebloods with Lucious' views are pompus, 
arrogant, and delusional of their own superiority.

I think that Arthur would like to get something on Lucious to knock 
him down a couple of peggs and show him that he is not an 
untouchable, regardless of how much money, or how far back his blood 
lines go.  I think it would bother any man when their significant 
other tells them someone else can better them at something even if 
it is true.  Just like Molly telling Arthur 'not to bite off more 
than he can chew' with Malfoy.  Arthur knows Malfoy has more power 
than him in the community, but he doesn't need Molly to remind him.  
His comment was more of a retorical comment.

Anyway, that's my two knuts.




From cristina at prodigy.net  Sat Mar  6 03:59:54 2004
From: cristina at prodigy.net (crisagi1)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 03:59:54 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat
In-Reply-To: <68389000.5F3CB9EA.4B073798@aol.com>
Message-ID: <c2bibq+enkq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92292

 So Charlie couldn't have been on the team until at least his second 
year!
> 
> Oryomai
> --Who wonders who the first year Quidditch player was 100 years 
before Harry...


ME:

Exactly,

in Philosipher's Stone, Ron tells Harry that First Years never make 
the house team.  Also, just like Ginny, CHarlie could have started 
off in one position, chaser, and then went on to be seeker in his 
last year.

What I did catch is that Charlie was working with dragons in Romania 
during Philosopher's Stone, so JKR's math had to be off in her chat 
session, she said it might be.




From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Sat Mar  6 04:08:52 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 04:08:52 -0000
Subject: Mea Culpa! Harry always at Privet Drive at least until his  birthday
In-Reply-To: <c2aomg+1tfa@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2bisk+c27q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92293

snip
4) Is Harry as safe in the yard as he is in the house?  I can
> see him sitting on the front stoop with Hedwig and his supplies,
> twiddling his thumbs as the Dursleys pull back into the driveway,
> scarcely able to believe that he's back again and horrified at what
> the neighbours are thinking.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Eustace_Scrubb

I think not.  Every note he recieves in OotP tells him to *stay in 
the house* (emphasis Sirius and Mr. Weasley).  Since the end of OotP, 
I have felt this puts Petunia's "go to your room!" in a whole new 
light.  finding out she knows what Dementors are also puts a new spin 
on her looking for Sirius Black in the neighbor's runner beans.  
Where *had* she seen him before...

Perhaps our Petunia has a little "auntie" love in her after all.

Sue




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  6 04:22:27 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 04:22:27 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Harry and Hermione
In-Reply-To: <c2ake9+85j7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2bjm3+tfa7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92294

Potioncat:
> <snip> On the other hand (running out of hands here) will the
relationship 
> issues be settled by 7th year? In spite of working for James and 
> Lily, it is kind of young.
><snip>


The relationships won't need to be settled by the seventh year.
There's going to be an Epilogue, which will give everything we need to
know about marriages, children, careers, etc.--at least up to the year
of pubication. (JKR won't be able to say, "Harry lived to be eighty,"
but she could say, Harry is living quietly in Lancashire with his wife
Ginny and their four children." Or whatever.

Carol




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Sat Mar  6 04:23:41 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 04:23:41 -0000
Subject: JKR chat--Snape the coward or the one left forever?
In-Reply-To: <a3.53758e99.2d7a8f8b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <c2bjod+kihn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92295

Susan:
> > But what I meant, above, was that Snape didn't COME to the 
> > graveyard when the dark mark called.  *That's* what I was 
> > assuming Voldy meant by being cowardly.  I wasn't thinking of a 
> > long history of Snape's being cowardly--just thinking of this as 
> > Voldy's reaction to who didn't show that night.

CareALotClouds:
> How do we know that Snape wasnt at the Graveyard scene?  Ok its 
> veyr unlikely.... But despite this, it actually hasnt been ruled 
> out that Snape was there.  

Susan:
I'll grant you that; it *is* a possibility.  I was simply trying to 
argue how Snape *could* also be the "coward" one, too.  

Pretty amazing how many ways this can be construed.  JKR is a genius!

Siriusly Snapey Susan






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  6 04:58:52 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 04:58:52 -0000
Subject: Some questions (JKR's chat)--Quidditch captain
In-Reply-To: <c2avio+gdhp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2blqc+ipm1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92296

> Sue again:
> 
> Exactly, I don't think Harry will have time to be captain of 
> Quidditch.  If he wants it however, he should have it.  If he 
> doesn't, Ron has my vote.


I hope Katie gets it. She's been on the team the longest, for one
thing. For another, Harry doesn't know enough about quidditch in
general to outline plays and strategies for the other players. My vote
is for Ron to be captain in their seventh year (if there's a quidditch
team at all)--Harry will be too near to his face-off with Voldemort to
be giving so much time to a sport or any other activity. (For that
reason, I don't want him to be Head Boy, either. Give that honor to
Ernie McMillan, who has the right sort of personality for it.) And let
Ginny be captain in her own seventh year (which of course, we won't
see). Just my preferences!

Carol




From profwildflower at mindspring.com  Sat Mar  6 05:02:01 2004
From: profwildflower at mindspring.com (whimsyflower)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 05:02:01 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Harry/Hermione
Message-ID: <c2bm09+lqnp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92297

As I've read through the H/H SHIP posts, I noticed that the "clues" Hermione 
has given us haven't been posted yet.  

In SS (chapter 16, "Through the Trapdoor"), after Hermione solved Snape's 
puzzle, JKR tells us, "Hermione's lip trembled, and she suddenly dashed at 
Harry and threw her arms around him."  Her concern was that Harry be 
careful and survive whatever he met next.  

In COS Rowling tells us (chapter 18, "Dobby's Reward"), "Harry didn't know 
whether the best bit was Hermione's running towrds him, screaming, 'You 
solved it!  You solved it!'   She seems to give Harry all the credit here even 
though Ron helped solve it every bit as much as Harry did.

In POA  H & H have the intense adventure of using the Time-Turner to 
rescue Sirius.  I don't remember any spontaneous expressions of affection 
from Hermione, but they seemed to work well together, and IMHO they were 
very much "equal partners."

At the end of GOF she spontaneously kisses Harry on the cheek at King's 
Cross Station  (last page of the book).

In OOTP she greeted Harry effusively when he arrive at Grimauld Place, and 
at the end of the book, again at King's Cross Station,  (chapter 38, "The 
Second War Begins") "Hermione disengaged herself gently from her mother 
to join the group" that spoke with the Dursleys about how they treat Harry 
when he is in their home.  I confess: I was surprised Ron didn't join the group, 
too.  

When taken singlely all of these seem like very small "clues," but they are 
consistent, and they represent a small cresendo of emotional intensity.  I 
suppose one possibility could be that Hermione falls for Harry while Ron falls 
for Hermione -- uck!

These clues aside, I reluctantly admit that I think in the end it will be a H/R 
SHIP.  I find their rows quite persuasive; no one fights like that unless s/he 
care about each other.  And, on a different tack, there's the blood issue.  Ron 
is a pureblood, and Hermione is a Muggle.  In chapter 7 of COS Ron says, 
"Most wizards these days are half-blood anyway.  If we hadn't maried 
Muggles we'd've died out."   As much as I dislike the G/H SHIP, the blood 
issue is similar:  Ginny is a pureblood, and Harry is a half-blood.  H/H would 
be too much Muggle.  I know JKR often has characters say that blood doesn't 
mean anything (eg: Hagrid in COS), but I wonder if blood plays a role in 
partnerships.  

That's it.  G'night.            Whimsy










From astrid at netspace.net.au  Sat Mar  6 05:26:17 2004
From: astrid at netspace.net.au (Astrid Wootton)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 16:26:17 +1100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] 40044
In-Reply-To: <c2b53u+3cqd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <BC6FAC29.1132%astrid@netspace.net.au>

No: HPFGUIDX 92298

Apologies for the empty mail. I was looking up this recommended post (great
post!!) and must have clicked the wrong button.

Astrid


On 6/3/04 11:13 AM, "astridwootton" <astrid at netspace.net.au> wrote:

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From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  6 05:29:29 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 05:29:29 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat
In-Reply-To: <c2b5lr+7mp7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2bnjp+5a87@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92299

Karen: 
> <snip>If Bill and Charlie's ages aren't important why always have the 
> information to hand?  Rather like the two missing Gryffindor Girls. 
> 
> By the way does everyone agree they exist, they just aren't 
> important?  She didn't say they didn't exist so they must, right?

Carol:
It's clear to me that there are ten Gryffindors in Harry's year from
the twenty brooms (Gryffindor and Slytherin in SS/PS) and twenty pairs
of earmuffs (Gryffindor and Hufflepuff in CoS) and the eight boggarts
(ten Gryffindors minus Harry and Hermione) in Lupin's first DADA
class. The two unkonw Gryffindors must be girls because if they were
boys, they'd be in Harry's dorm and we'd know their names. So, yes,
I've always thought there were two unknown Gryffindor girls, and I'm
glad JKR acknowledged their existence even though she forgot to come
back with their names.

Carol, who hopes that someone will submit the best of the 16,000
unanswered questions to JKR and that she'll answer about 200 of them
in the near future




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  6 06:04:16 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 06:04:16 -0000
Subject: JKR chat--Snape the coward or the one left forever?
In-Reply-To: <a3.53758e99.2d7a8f8b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <c2bpl0+t4bv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92300

Siriusly Snapey Susan:
But what I meant, above, was that Snape didn't COME to the graveyard
when the dark mark called. *That's* what I was assuming Voldy meant by
being cowardly. I wasn't thinking of a long history of Snape's being
cowardly--just thinking of this as Voldy's reaction to who didn't show
that night.
> 

(Unsigned post:)
How do we know that Snape wasnt at the Graveyard scene?  Ok its veyr
unlikely considering the fact that that would mean Snape watch Harry
being killed by Voldy and Snape could of just gone back and told
Dumbledore about Voldy being back (they made a big deal out of HArry
surviving thus telling Dumbledore about it).  But despite this, it
actually hasnt been ruled out that Snape was there.  There was about
30 death eaters there, Voldy didnt talk to them all, maybe he just
didnt say anything to Snape.  I dont actually believe what Im saying 
but its a possibility.

Carol:
A possibility, maybe, but a very remote one. Since you can't apparate
from Hogwarts, Snape would have had to leave the Tri-Wizard Tournament
(under Dumbledore's nose), run to Hogsmeade (having found or conjured
a cloak and mask along the way), stay through the whole ceremony/duel
with LV and Harry, apparate back to Hogsmeade (under Voldemort's
nose), shed the cloak and mask, run back to the tournament, and
account for his absence/breathlessness to Dumbledore. Not likely, IMO. 

It seems clear from DD's treatment of him and from his own behavior
after Harry's return that he was with DD the whole time--and we see
him react with surprise when Harry gives Lucius Malfoy's name (he
certainly would have known of Malfoy's presence in the graveyard had
he been there himself). We also have his own words to Karkaroff a few
chapters earlier: "Flee, then! Flee! I will remain at Hogwarts."
(Quoting from memory, but IIRC it's in the "Yule Ball" chapter.) I
think LV knew that Karkaroff (the coward) had fled and that Snape had
remained at Hogwarts, where his loyalties lay. Crouch!Moody was spying
on Snape, remember, and was probably reporting his suspicions and
observations to LV, so LV could easily have known in advance that they
would be absent and confirmed it by the missing places in the circle.

Given all that, it seems very likely that Snape was absent from the
graveyard and that he accounted for his absence later to Malfoy by
telling him more or less what I posted in my first paragraph. As JKR
said, the fansites have it right.

Carol

P.S. Don't worry, SSS. I know you don't think Snape is a coward. I was
explaining why I didn't think LV would consider him one, either. :-)




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  6 06:14:20 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 06:14:20 -0000
Subject: Shake-up at the Ministry
In-Reply-To: <c2bi3i+m6fi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2bq7s+c77a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92301

cristina wrote:
> I don't think that Arthur was ever under the imperius curse. 
<snip>
> 
> Lucious and Arthur have more than enough for antagonistic feelings 
> for each other.  Lucious believes Arthur and his family turned their 
> back on their heritage, one which he feels they should be proud of.  
> Arthur feels that purebloods with Lucious' views are pompus, 
> arrogant, and delusional of their own superiority.
> 
> I think that Arthur would like to get something on Lucious to knock 
> him down a couple of peggs and show him that he is not an 
> untouchable, regardless of how much money, or how far back his blood 
> lines go.  <snip>


I agree, but I would add that Arthur knows Malfoy is a Dark Wizard and
a Death Eater who got away by claiming to be under the Imperius curse.
He may even suspect that he was LV's second or third in command.
Malfoy probably knows exactly what Mr. Weasley suspects and holds him
in contempt for being unable to prove it (as well as for being a
Muggle lover and a "blood traitor"). Plenty of grounds for mutual
animosity without Arthur having ever been a victim of the Imperius
Curse himself.

Carol 




From jujupoet29 at hotmail.com  Sat Mar  6 06:23:45 2004
From: jujupoet29 at hotmail.com (sienna291973)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 06:23:45 -0000
Subject: Ginny for Captain! was: Quidditch captain & Harry being busy
In-Reply-To: <c2amhm+pf55@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2bqph+t6a6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92302

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
> Mandy wrote:
> Ginny is going to be Gryffindor Quidditch captain not Ron.  She is 
a 
> far superior player. Ron's good, but I got the impression Ginny 
was 
> very good.   

I can't say I agree guys.  If we follow the logical conclusion, 
everything points to Harry becoming Quidditch captain.  I'm not 
saying this will happen (JKR being master of surprises) but I would 
be very surprised if it were either Ron or Ginny.  Ginny has played 
one game only (if I'm not mistaken), and Ron has played only one 
GOOD game in a whole season. Harry is the youngest and most talented 
seeker since I don't know when and has played three and a bit 
successful seasons in which time he only lost one game. All other 
things aside (e.g. Ron gaining in Status, Ron's strategic abilities 
as evidenced by his superior chess playing), I would think Harry 
would be the logical choice.

Perhaps it is because of this that he will be 'busy'?  The only way 
I see Ron or Ginny as captain is if Harry isn't playing Quidditch at 
all.

Sienna
(Who has nothing against Ron but would hope that next time he 
achieves something its because he's better at it and not because 
Harry is 'too busy' or has 'too much on his plate')




From pixieberry at harborside.com  Sat Mar  6 06:40:42 2004
From: pixieberry at harborside.com (Krystol Berry)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 22:40:42 -0800
Subject: Lord Voldemort (filk)
Message-ID: <01b401c40345$f2db6db0$203a2d0c@D55NTV31>

No: HPFGUIDX 92303

Seems like most of my filks lean toward the darker side of HP.....hmmm 
 :)   - Pixieberry

Lord Voldemort
To the tune of The Night Before by The Beatles  (lyrics at http://www.elyrics.net/go/b/Beatles/The_Night_Before/)
 
dedicated to CMC

Hallway in my mind
(ahh, Lord Voldemort)
Desperate to find
(ahh, Lord Voldemort)
Somewhere on this floor
One specific door
Stay out of my dreams, Lord Voldemort!

Evil you demise
(ahh, Lord Voldemort)
I could not surmise
(ahh, Lord Voldemort)
You were using me
To reach the prophecy
Stay out of my dreams, Lord Voldemort!

Snake bite was a fright
That still nearly makes me cry
When I saw Arthur attacked
I thought that he would die!

Now I'm in a scrape
(ahh, Lord Voldemort)
With Severus Snape
(ahh, Lord Voldemort)
Dumbledore's decree?
Learn Occlumency!
Stay out of my dreams, Lord Voldemort!

You were using me
To reach the prophecy
Stay out of my dreams, Lord Voldemort!

Snake bite was a fright
That still nearly makes me cry
When I saw Arthur attacked
I thought that he would die!

Hallway in my mind
(ahh, Lord Voldemort)
Desperate to find
(ahh, Lord Voldemort)
Somewhere on this floor
One specific door
Stay out of my dreams, Lord Voldemort!
Lord Voldemort!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From greatelderone at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  6 07:28:37 2004
From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 07:28:37 -0000
Subject: The most satisfying answer in JKR's chat
In-Reply-To: <19d.215aa0f7.2d7aa3b9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <c2buj5+kaur@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92304

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Mhochberg at a... wrote:
> What changes in motiviation and character behavior would she make? 
Would 
> Vernon Dursley be crueler or more sympathetic? Would Petunia be 
less sure of 
> herself? Dumbledore is so two dimensional in the opening of book 1. 
What would the 
> book be like if we saw more depth in him right away? Would his 
humor be more 
> satisfying or more trivial? 

Frankly I think the initial 2Dness or lack of depth of the characters 
should be kept. One of the things I liked about the books was how we 
initially though that the series was going to be another cliche 
childrens books only for our expectations to be proved wrong which is 
one of the strong points of the series being that it plays on and 
breaks expectations for better or for worse.




From nzcate at hotmail.com  Sat Mar  6 03:21:58 2004
From: nzcate at hotmail.com (nzcate)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 03:21:58 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Harry and Hermione - how about a random love interest?
In-Reply-To: <c2aop1+vn0l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2bg4m+t08p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92305


> ~ Hitomi wrote:
Hitomi, who will be the R/H defender among the H/H shippers, 
because she's noticed all the H/H are very adament, as if they have 
something to defend, while many R/H shippers don't even bother, 
because it just seems so... well, why bother?


Cate:

Now my turn...

Ditto for the above! I still think that there is a possiblility of a 
more random love interest for Harry - what about Fleur's little 
sister all grown up now? How about some beautiful mysterious new 
exchange student who ends up being involved with Voldy, causing Harry 
to nearly mess up everything with his being distracted by her? 

The end result may be that he does end up with the familiar by Book 7 
(eg Ginny) - however, it would be too bland a story for that to be 
the big focus for the next two books. 

Just throwing out some other options here.

Cate





From greatelderone at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  6 07:36:15 2004
From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 07:36:15 -0000
Subject: Some questions (JKR's chat)--Quidditch captain
In-Reply-To: <c2blqc+ipm1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2bv1f+26j7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92306

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" 
<justcarol67 at y...> wrote:
> > Sue again:
> > 
> > Exactly, I don't think Harry will have time to be captain of 
> > Quidditch.  If he wants it however, he should have it.  If he 
> > doesn't, Ron has my vote.
> 
> 
> I hope Katie gets it. She's been on the team the longest, for one
> thing. 

Except isn't Katie Bell a seventh year in OOTP? I mean if she was a 
sixth year then she'd have been a 2nd year and a new player like 
Harry in SS/PS which didn't seem so when I read the book. Well we'll 
see, but from Rowling's comments the new captain doesn't seem to like 
Ron perhaps it's a new character.




From lhuntley at fandm.edu  Sat Mar  6 07:36:39 2004
From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 02:36:39 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Harry and Hermione
In-Reply-To: <c2aop1+vn0l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <01989700-6F41-11D8-BC58-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 92307

> Hitomi:
> Hey guys, long time no post.  Anyway, thanks Susan, for bringing
> this up (even though we're talking about ships, AGAIN!).  I've never
> understood how we are supposed to take all the instances in the
> books between Hermione and Harry as "clues."  (I know all the
> defenses of this ship, and I've heard how the situations between
> Harry and Hermione have been construed to look as if they might like
> one another, or at least Hermione does, because we know Harry has NO
> interest, but those situations look most blatantly as if the two are
> very close friends.)

Well, technically, Harry has showed ZERO amount of interest in Ginny 
Weasley (or anyone else except Cho) as well, despite the fact that he 
is well aware that she likes (liked?) him and Ron's obvious support of 
a H/G relationship.

Ultimately, if you want to SHIP Harry with *any* of the main female 
characters we have so far, you pretty much are going to have to accept 
the rather cheesy scenario of him recognizing What Was In Front of Him 
All Along.  That said, I do think JKR has the ability to make such a 
scenario seem much more natural and less out-of-the-blue than it sounds 
(as, really, it's not all that uncommon, even in real life).

> I never once thought while reading they would
> end up together.  In Book 1, unlike a lot of the posters on this
> list apparently, I never thought because Hermione is the "heroine"
> that she should be with the "hero."  At that point, they were
> eleven, and I would have been just as happy to see her with Ron as
> Harry.

Just because you never thought of it doesn't mean that it isn't a valid 
conclusion. ^_~  SHIPping preferences are just that.  PREFERENCES (i.e. 
a matter of feelings and opinions, all of which are v. subjective).

I'm not really sure when I formed my SHIPping preferences (H/H, if you 
hadn't guessed ^_~), but I know it was sometime in between starting PoA 
and finishing GoF.  And it wasn't because I thought the heroine should 
be with the hero (in fact, I have never heard a H/H or any other poster 
cite this as a reason that the H/H ship will happen).

So why *do* I support H/H?  It's hard to articulate, really.  I suppose 
one could easily argue that I identify with Hermione, am attracted 
to/deeply admire/love many of Harry's qualities and identify with most 
of the rest, and prefer the type of relationship I envision H/H having 
(as opposed to the bickering-leads-to-passion type of relationship 
R/Hers propose).  On the other hand, *normally* I SHIP the female leads 
in the stories I read with the bad-boy types (ah, yes, I'm such a 
sucker for that), so perhaps my H/H preference is not entirely some 
kind of default for me.

All I know is that sometime during GoF I realized that Harry and 
Hermione could really have a beautiful relationship together, and that 
I'd felt that this was so for quite some time.


> And then, after reading Books 2-4, it was settled, Hermione and Ron
> was the ship I took for granted, and I thought every HP fan must see
> it.  Obviously, I found I was wrong upon joining the fandom, but I
> never put Hermione with Ron because I wanted to, unlike a lot of H/H
> shippers.  They just sort of... were.

I hate to preach . . . *snickers* Okay, I love preach, but taking for 
granted that everyone else *must* think and experience things the same 
way you do is almost always an erroneous assumption.  It leads to bad 
things . . . like intolerance and stepping on people's toes.  Honestly, 
I found your entire post quite aggressive and intolerant towards 
H/Hers, rather than just the H/H SHIP (which would have been less 
offensive).  Now, I'm not trying to say that you're a bad person, 
because I'm sure anyone willing to wrassle with Yahoomort could dig up 
a half-dozen posts in which I made rather uncharitable generalizations 
about R/Hers, but uh . . . maybe it would be better if we *all* could 
learn to be a bit more mature and respectful towards one another.

I know it seems (to you) like the R/H ship is inevitable/right/etc., 
but you had better believe that the H/H SHIP feels the same way to 
H/Hers.

> And I know a lot of people
> want to think JKR is pulling our leg, because she does do that at
> times, but not to this extent.  Mostly, she is honest.  And she has,
> REPEATEDLY, said that there is more going on between Ron and
> Hermione, than Harry and Hermione, that H/H is very "platonic."
> That pretty much settles it for me, but some still argue.  In this
> latest interview, she says something along the lines of "haven't I
> given enough clues already?"  and then answeres the Krum question
> with "Ron would like to know that, too."  Ron, not Harry.  All, the
> clues, unless construed to fit a point, as I said, look as if Harry
> and Hermione are just friends.  Why would she put so much effort
> into showing Ron's jealousy, Hermione's exasperation, if she wasn't
> going to do anything with it?  Same with Ginny's having a crush.
> That's why I sometimes ship H/G, because what was the point of
> having her like him, if JKR doesn't eventually do something with
> it?

The pessimist in me thinks you're probably right (which isn't *exactly* 
saying anything, as I always assume the worst in situations such as 
this).  On one hand, she *is* a v. sneaky person.  On the other hand, I 
have this sinking feeling (based mostly on the information you've cited 
above and on traditional plot trajectories, a la Star Wars), that 
Hermione will end up with Ron, and Harry will end up with Ginny.

So why am I fighting it?  First, because, as I said above, I really 
can't trust my own sense of dread when it comes to this kind of thing.  
I *always* feel like it's all going to turn out badly just because I 
want it to end differently.  Secondly, because I can't *stand* R/H and 
H/G.

Ron and Hermione?  I understand totally that some people think fighting 
(or verbal sparring -- take your pick of terminology) is a sign of 
passion between two people, and on some levels I think they're right.  
Passion *can* come about that way.  But it's not the *only* way, and, 
personally, I think it's a *bad* way.  In my experience/observations, 
the passion generally dies away as the relationship ages (of course, no 
type of relationship remains in the "honeymoon" stage forever), and 
then what's left?  Two people who's main way of interacting is taking 
jabs at one another.  I've seen a lot of people in these relationships, 
for example my parents and my cousin and her boyfriend.  In my opinion, 
my parents are the best-case scenario.  They *do* still love each other 
very much, they always apologize when they end up actually hurting each 
other, etc.  But at the same time, it's easy to see that it tires and 
upsets them on a daily basis, they have trouble communicating, my 
mother ends up treating my father like a child, my father has just 
learned to ignore my mother -- also, lemme tell you, it's NO FUN to 
grow up with.  As for my cousin and her boyfriend, they are definitely 
the worst-case scenario.  I won't get into here, but I won't wish their 
relationship on *anybody*.

As for Ginny and Harry -- don't even get me started.  Something about 
Ginny -- I just can't stand the girl.  I once wrote a very angry, very 
long post in which I compared her to a group of girls (actually, my 
friends) with whom I went to school with and very explicitly exclaimed 
my hatred of her and "everyone like her."  *blushes* Yeah, it was 
horrible -- I still can't figure out how it ever got through the list 
elves (I was on moderated status at that time).  Anyway, more recently 
I've been less . . . er, irrationally rageful towards the girl, but I 
still feel she's badly developed, fangirlish, possibly evil, etc.

<SNIP>

> And I'll comment on Potioncat's post by saying, I agree, I don't
> think there will be ridiculous love triangles, which is what would
> happen if Harry suddenly fancied Hermione (beside the fact, Harry
> suddenly showing interest, after knowing and interacting with her
> for so long, wouldn't make sense - another defense for the H/G
> shippers is that Harry is just beginning to know her).

But it *does* 'make sense'.  Best friends fall in love all the time 
(*especially* in fiction, but also in real life as well).  As for Harry 
and Ginny . . . how would the hero suddenly noticing the girlish 
virtues of his best bud's kid sister (who's now suspiciously "over 
him") be any less cliched than the hero falling for his best female 
friend?  The problem is, every story that one can think of has already 
been told a million times before, and when it comes to romance stories, 
the number is more like a *hundred* million.  Really, there is v. 
little JKR could do (romance-wise) that couldn't be attacked as 
cliched, unrealistic, etc.

> JKR isn't
> going to turn this into some kind of stupid soap opera, if she did,
> I would lose all faith in her.  Another reason I detest the
> Snape/Lily theories, or the Lily/LV theories.  It isn't her style,
> and I don't think she is going to randomly change the character's
> proclivities and preinclinations, so that ships such as
> Harry/Hermione will make sense.  We've only got two books to go.  If
> Hermione is that girl that kisses Harry, alluding to JKR's latest
> interview, Ron would be very hurt.  It just isn't something I even
> remotely see actually happening.

I hardly think the more complex, plot-driving Snape/Lily theories are 
frivolous or soapy.  I may not agree with them, but they add 
interesting twists on the characters and *do* seem to easily explain a 
lot of things.  I totally understand the urge to feel angry about a 
theory that you think is ridiculous (for instance, I'm sorry guys, but 
the whole Ron-is-Dumbledore thing? *sigh*), but you really can't judge 
them against the story *you* think JKR is writing.  It's not fair *or* 
reasonable.  I know this because the list elves told me when *I* did 
it.  *sheepish grin* Yes, I am a blazing hypocrite.  Sorry.

<SNIP>

> ... Arthur and Molly, who dated in school as well.  And Ron and
> Hermione if like any other couple, are very similar to his parents.

See, that is *exactly* what I don't want, for either of them.  You know 
why?  Because it leaves Hermione browbeating Ron until he just ignores 
her.  Molly basically treats Arthur like a seventh son.  I don't know 
about you, but I can't ever remember seeing them be affectionate 
towards each other (I'm certainly not saying that they never *are*, 
off-page, but *still*).  In general, their interactions are greatly her 
*scolding* him (remind you of anyone? *cough* R/H *cough*).  Maybe JKR 
*does* think this is what a marriage should be like.  Personally, I 
can't think of anything more tiring and depressing than parenting a 
spouse my entire life -- unless it's being treated like a wayward child 
by the woman who's supposed to be my partner and lover.

> I don't know if JKR will let us know if the characters remain
> together, unless she gives us an epilogue, but I have a feeling
> she'll leave us with some idea of permanence, otherwise that would
> be leaving a loose end.

Just FYI, I'm almost sure she has said in an interview somewhere that 
there *will* be an epilogue.

> ~ Hitomi, who will be the R/H defender among the H/H shippers,
> because she's noticed all the H/H are very adament, as if they have
> something to defend, while many R/H shippers don't even bother,
> because it just seems so... well, why bother?

Many R/H SHIPpers don't even bother?  Have you met Pippin?  Trust me, 
from the H/H side of things, it feels just the opposite -- like *we're* 
the voiceless one in a sea of adamant R/Hers.  I guess it's just human 
nature to feel set upon? *shrugs*

Laura (who always writes far, far more than she intends to.)

"God gave rock n' roll to you."




From jasnyder at intrex.net  Sat Mar  6 04:43:19 2004
From: jasnyder at intrex.net (Jen Snyder)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 23:43:19 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Some questions (JKR's chat)--Quidditch captain
In-Reply-To: <c2avtt+acm5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <BNEHIILJKELAIEMOJLOGAELNCBAA.jasnyder@intrex.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 92308

bboy_mn said:
>>If she is not there, I think, or more accurately speculate, that Harry
will indeed be captain, but will not be very good at it.<<


Why would you think that Harry would not be a good Quidditch captain?  He
does very well in OOtP in directing the DA, even though he's nervous about
it at first and doesn't think he can do it...he might not want it, or might
not think that he'd be any good, but I think the DA experience shows that he
would be good at it.

Jen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





From gbannister10 at aol.com  Sat Mar  6 07:50:26 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 07:50:26 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat
In-Reply-To: <68389000.5F3CB9EA.4B073798@aol.com>
Message-ID: <c2bvs2+g26g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92309

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, SnapesSlytherin at a... wrote:

Oryomai:
> But wasn't Harry the youngest seeker in a century?  If Charlie was 
a first year and a Seeker, then Harry would've been the youngest 
since Charlie, not in a century.  That *is* canon, right?  *looks it 
up* According to the Lexicon, Harry is the youngest player in 100 
years.  So Charlie couldn't have been on the team until at least his 
second year!
> 

Geoff:
Definitely canon...

"'Seeker?' he (Ron) said, 'But first years never - you must be the 
youngest house player in about -'
'a century,' said Harry.......... 'Wood told me'"

(PS "The Midnight Duel" p.113 UK edition)




From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Sat Mar  6 04:54:47 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 06 Mar 2004 05:54:47 +0100
Subject: Assets & Liabilities of Broken Mirrors
Message-ID: <20040306045447.429F02D2244@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 92310

Susan Vanhuesen:
>[mirror] could
> be used as a "walkie-talkie" type tool for Harry & Co.
> That being said, however, it can been a potential
> danger if someone outside of the  D.A. were to get
> their hands on a piece of the mirror, therefore
> allowing them to eavesdrop. Unless one has to "look" in
> the mirror, then the question would be could Harry and
> Co. see the intruder?

Unfortunately that's danger of any comunication tool. I guess one nedds to look into the mirror to communicate, otherwise the mirror won't work as a "mirror", showing the reflection being primary mirror function.

I also think the "mirror" remark can be understood in a broader sense: mirrors of different kind play important background role in HP.

Cheer, Viridis
________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!




From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Sat Mar  6 05:23:40 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 06 Mar 2004 06:23:40 +0100
Subject: Disliked Uncle Vernon
Message-ID: <20040306052340.A6EA72D2239@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 92311

> Tj:
>  He has locked him up, STARVED him...

Not exactly, I'm afraid it's a bit of fanon contamination. The quote goes:
"The Dursleys had never exactly starved Harry, but he'd never been allowed to eat as much as he liked." PS, during feast

> Carol:
>  Vernon, however, is not
> simply a power-hungry bully like Delores Umbridge (the person I would
> expect JKR to dislike most), nor is he a coward like, say, Karkaroff,
> as he at least tried to stand up to Hagrid (and later Mr. Weasley) in
> an effort to protect his wife and son. In other words, he isn't wholly
> contemptible (as Karkaroff and Umbridge are, IMO). [...]
> 
> To me, Vernon is the essence of Muggle misunderstanding of the magical
> world. He fears what he doesn't understand[...]
> 
> In other words, he's the flip side of Salazar Slytherin [...]

Dolores and Venon are closely tied. I'm not surprised JKR doesn't like Vernon. He's the most realistic in his abuse. Also - although what Carol wrote is true - his redeeming qualities or his "bright" sides are the weakest. Salazaar, Voldie, Bella were all great wizards, I guess Karkaroff, unpleasant as he was, was rather powerful, too.
As for Dolores she has ruthless ambition of a bueaurocatic kind as her main streak, and she's more willing to go to extremes; maybe the the pettiness of Vernon is the only point she "wins". Otherwise they're very close.


Cheers, Viridis
________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!




From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Sat Mar  6 05:06:52 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 06 Mar 2004 06:06:52 +0100
Subject: Arthur and Imperio, was Re: Shake-up at the Ministry
Message-ID: <20040306050652.188742D2239@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 92312

vecseytj:

> Hi Sue~
> I think that Arthur did get zapped by the Imperius curse for 2 reasons.
> 
> 1~  In GOF, in DADA class when Couch Jr. is showing the unforgiviable
> curses, He did it in a very specific order.
>      a~  Neville  crutious curse (the one that drove his parents out    
>           of their minds.)
> 
>       b~  Harry Avada Kadara (sp?) the curse that killed his parents
> 
>       c~   Ron imperius curse.. and he couldn't fight it very well at 
>             all.  He was still skipping every 3rd step, even when he
>             got out of class.  When everyone else was okay.
> 


The proper order is: 1. Imperio; 2 Cruciatus; 3 Avada Kedavra

He comments, that Arthur would know about Imperius, because it "gave Ministry a lot of trouble at that time".

Personally I don't think Arthur was under direct Imperio (unless Molly counts :) ), but was in contact with people who were/claimed they were.

Cheers, Viridis


________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!




From siskiou at msn.com  Sat Mar  6 08:45:24 2004
From: siskiou at msn.com (Susanne)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 00:45:24 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Harry and Hermione
In-Reply-To: <01989700-6F41-11D8-BC58-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu>
References: <c2aop1+vn0l@eGroups.com>
 <01989700-6F41-11D8-BC58-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu>
Message-ID: <1242164551.20040306004524@msn.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92313



Hi,

Friday, March 5, 2004, 11:36:39 PM, Laura wrote:

> Because it leaves Hermione browbeating Ron until he just ignores
> her.  Molly basically treats Arthur like a seventh son. 

Actually, this sounds exactly like the way Hermione and
*Harry* interact, already.

Hermione nags, or suggests how Harry should act in any given
situation (yes, she wants to help, but it often comes across
like a mother-child relationship), and Harry chooses to ignore her
just as often as he listens to her.


-- 
Best regards,
 Susanne                           mailto:siskiou at msn.com

Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/





From molly at elizabethjewelry.com  Sat Mar  6 08:59:01 2004
From: molly at elizabethjewelry.com (Molly Rahe)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 08:59:01 -0000
Subject: Weasleys Ages- NOT The last and final post you will ever need
In-Reply-To: <c2apkh+47o7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2c3sl+ig09@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92314

In response to the two people who commented on my post, I have this to
say;
bboy, I totaly agree.  Hitomi, please re-read my post 92160.

 I know she was in a calm enviroment during her interview in which she
stated that Bill was in his late twenties in GoF. That fact is law to
me. ( as the law that states that late twenties means 27 and up) The
next iron clad law is that Charlie is two years younger than Bill,
and, (according to the 7 year quidditch drought) that he is,
currently, at the very least, 27, if he left after after his O.W.L.'s
and 29 if he left after his N.E.W.T.'s. yes, this takes into account
any day of the year his birthday is on.
Get a piece of paper out. If you put in enough time, I know it is a
pain in the butt, but the math works out this way.

I appreciate the thoughtful response you both put forth. 

My personal need for Bill and Charlie to be 29 and 31ish is to
satisfiy my fanfic addiction in which both boys are these ages. 
Totaly unimportant in reality I know, but I thought I would explain
why I am so adament about it!

Cheers! Twiggymolly


--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hitomi" <japanesesearcher at y...>
wrote:
> > bboy_mn:
> > 
> > 
> > Summary: She made a mistake when she included Percy in her 
> statement.
> > 
> > Conclusion: Disregard that information about Percy.
> 
> Hitomi:
> Erm, I'm not going to completely disregard it, because I do think 
> she was just pulling that off the top of her head.  What if Percy is 
> say, sixteen when he's in fifth year, like Angelina and Cedric being 
> seventeen in their sixth year, and Charlie just graduated the year 
> before, so Charlie would be eighteen.  Two years.  And Fred and 
> George's birthdays are in April so that almost makes Percy three 
> years older, but he is still, technically, two years older.  Or 
> Charlie could have been like we think Hermione might be, turning 
> eleven later in the year, but before the New Year, so that they 
> first entered school at the age of ten.  And Percy's birthday could 
> be early on in the school year, or he could have been eleven, 
> shortly turning twelve when he started school.  What I'm trying to 
> say, is that what JKR said could work.
> 





From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  6 09:06:44 2004
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 09:06:44 -0000
Subject: Some questions (JKR's chat)--Quidditch captain
In-Reply-To: <BNEHIILJKELAIEMOJLOGAELNCBAA.jasnyder@intrex.net>
Message-ID: <c2c4b4+5c6m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92315

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Snyder" <jasnyder at i...> wrote:
> bboy_mn said:
> >>If she is not there, I think, or more accurately speculate, that 
> Harry will indeed be captain, but will not be very good at it.<<
> 


> 
> Why would you think that Harry would not be a good Quidditch 
> captain?  He does very well in OOtP in directing the DA, even though 
> he's nervous about it at first and doesn't think he can do it...he 
> might not want it, or might not think that he'd be any good, but I 
> think the DA experience shows that he would be good at it.
> 
> Jen


bboy_mn:

I think Harry COULD be a good Quidditch captain under the right
circumstances, but the next book or two will hardly be the right
circumstances. I predict that in the next book Harry will be very
busy. One reason for this, is that I believe that the D.A. Club will
continue in the next book. Plus, escalating conflict and chaos caused
by the DE's and Voldemort.

Second, Ron has grown up in a Quidditch family, he has been surround
by Quidditch, walked Quidditch, talked Quidditch, and played Quidditch
his whole life. I think he understand the game and the strategy better
than Harry.

I make this prediction long ago, even before book five came out. Here
is what I see happening. Harry is named captain, and Ron continues as
Keeper. (I do have some thoughts on alternative positions that I think
they might play, but I will leave that for some other time.)

So, Harry will try his best to be captain, but it means a lot more
than just bossing the other team members around. He has to analyse the
strength and weakness of the other teams, he has to plan appropriate
game stragegy for dealing with those strength and weakness, he has to
guide the other players on his team with regard to improving their
ability at their respective positions, and he has to direct and
control the dynamic flow of the game while it is in play.

Harry is a natural as a Seeker, but Seekers really don't do that much,
they spend the whole game looking for the Snitch. The other player
positions are much more complicated and far more dynamic. Chasers
especially must work seamlessly as a team, and Harry will have at
least two new Chasers. His Beaters need to be strong, alert, and
coordinated, and they have to have a good understanding of the
dynamics of the play of the game in order to effectively use the
Bludgers to their advantage. Harry has no experience in any of the
other positions, and unlike Ron, he hasn't had the opportunity to sit
with his brother and hear them discussing game tactics and strategy
for hours on end.

Consequently, Ron will jump in with advise and instructions in order
to help Harry out. He wouldn't do this with an 'I know more than you'
attitude, he will simply and honestly be trying to help out a friend
and the team. But you know that old saying, 'too many cooks spoil the
broth' or 'too many Chiefs and not enough Indians'. At some point,
this attempt to help by Ron will bring Harry and Ron into conflict.
Short version; a conflict that will be resolved when Harry realizes
that he doesn't like being captain, he's too busy and distracted to be
captain, and that Ron is better at it than he is, so he will turn the
Captainship over to Ron, who will do an impressive job.

I made this prediction well over a year ago, and I'm sticking too it.
I did guess correctly way way way back when that Ron would be Keeper,
so I'm hoping for two in a row. The one thing this prediction didn't
allow for was the possibility that Katie Bell would still be there, if
she is there, the I think she gets it, and I need to shift my
prediction to book 7.

Just a few thoughts.

bboy_mn











From molly at elizabethjewelry.com  Sat Mar  6 09:08:22 2004
From: molly at elizabethjewelry.com (Molly Rahe)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 09:08:22 -0000
Subject: The most satisfying answer in JKR's chat
In-Reply-To: <19d.215aa0f7.2d7aa3b9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <c2c4e6+8mvd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92316

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Mhochberg at a... wrote:
> For me, it was this:
> 
> "One of these days - once seven is finished - I'll revise all seven
books. "
> 
> There were many interesting and exciting bits in the chat but that
is my 
> favorite. I can look forward, far ahead, to the "writer's cut" of
the entire 
> series. 
> 
> Her comment opens up so much speculation! Not simply revising any
Flints and 
> correcting timelines but what she might add in the way of new
background 
> material. 


> ---Mary
> "Friendship is born at the moment when one person says to another,
'What?! 
> You too! Thought I was the only one.'"  (Clive Staples Lewis) 


Mary, I love your quote! We have such a need to know that we are not
alonein our thinking, hence this forum!
I also agree that a revised H.P. books would be less about change, but
about exploring the charatcters and motivations. We have so thoughaly
read and re-read her books, we need more. Which is why fanfiction
sprange forth too. I also doubt anytime soon she will be answering
everybodys questions asked in letters as she can not even look at any
anymore as she get hundreds a day. Pity. Wish she would change her
mind about printing her notes. Maybe little Jessica or David will when
they own it all. I MUST OUTLIVE J.K. Rowling! 

Cruel thought, but anyways... we fans are a hungry lot..

Twiggymolly




From molly at elizabethjewelry.com  Sat Mar  6 09:19:06 2004
From: molly at elizabethjewelry.com (Molly Rahe)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 09:19:06 -0000
Subject: Some questions (JKR's chat)--Quidditch captain
In-Reply-To: <c2c4b4+5c6m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2c52a+1f9u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92317


> 
> bboy_mn:
> 
> I think Harry COULD be a good Quidditch captain under the right
> circumstances, but the next book or two will hardly be the right
> circumstances. I predict that in the next book Harry will be very
> busy.
cut-edit
> 
> Second, Ron has grown up in a Quidditch family, he has been surround
> by Quidditch, walked Quidditch, talked Quidditch, and played Quidditch
> his whole life. I think he understand the game and the strategy better
> than Harry.
cut-edit
> 
> I make this prediction long ago, even before book five came out. Here
> is what I see happening. Harry is named captain, and Ron continues as
> Keeper. 
cut-edit
> Short version; a conflict that will be resolved when Harry realizes
> that he doesn't like being captain, he's too busy and distracted to be
> captain, and that Ron is better at it than he is, so he will turn the
> Captainship over to Ron, who will do an impressive job.
> 
> I made this prediction well over a year ago, and I'm sticking too it.
>


bboy_mn,
This is exactly what I thought, only you put it so much more clearly
than I could! I didn't want to edit the post I was refering to because
it explains it so very well! 
This also ties in with the possiblity of Ron's view in the mirror of
Erised being true- a hint by J.K. He is already a prefect, so who knows?




From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Sat Mar  6 11:53:19 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 11:53:19 -0000
Subject: a different 'crucial' question was:Re: "The Crucial and Central Question"
In-Reply-To: <c2aslh+2jsn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2ce3f+6fpg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92318

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tracy Hunt" <tcyhunt at e...> wrote:
> 
> Kneasy, I love reading your posts.  Sometimes I agree, sometimes 
> not.  You make me shake my head, laugh and sometimes wish I knew you 
> in another life.  But on this one, I have to speak out.  There are 
> more than 11,000 of us on this list alone.  We've read and re-read 
> the books.  We've analyzed and scrutinized every word of text.  We've 
> inferred and conferred.  Perhaps it's all too much.  We've discovered 
> mistakes/Flints in characters, math, spells, etc.  Isn't it just a 
> bit like American celebrity?  With so large of a magnifying glass, 
> can anyone/anything emerge worthy?  We've put JKR's work on a mighty 
> pedestal.  Is there an ending or series of explanations that would 
> satisfy us all after we've dissected it with our usual vigor?  
> Perhaps we've delved too deeply.  What if it ultimately ends up being 
> just a great children's tale?  That's ok with me.  I'm great at 
> willful suspension of disbelief.
> 

Compliments to savour. Thank you. But isn't that what this site is supposed
to be about? Adults expressing views, sometimes contentious, in a hopefully
entertaining or engaging manner? And take my word for it, the Kneasy of
your imagination is to  be preferred to the disappointing reality.

Back to the fantasy.
11,000 of us, dissecting, analysing, scrutinising. And most of us are going
to get it wrong. That's the joy of it. That's what makes it so special. Last
year I rambled through a post on just this point and a prime example of
one of the observations has re-occured this week. Hang on, let's see if I
can find the quote- yep, here it is "There's little that is more fun than
watching someone  going out on a limb, only to see Nemesis, in the shape
of JKR, come along and saw it off. That it has and will happen to so many
of us only adds to the communal enjoyment. A quiet  hum of satisfaction 
pervades the site. "Never did like that idea," you reflect smugly, "Told you
so!" (post 79637) 
Sorry Pippin. Courage Camille! This pain too must  pass away.

We all have our own views on the books and the characters, plus our 
personal hopes for the final resolution. I imagine that JKR must sometimes
stop and wonder at the thousands of enties on the web under Harry Potter
 - "How on earth did this lot develop from a tale about a young boy?" 
Because it has that extra something, that's why. It's that extra that
persuades me to write scathing posts about Sirius, suspect Dumbledore
and be fascinated by Snape. Of course we are lucky, very lucky. The 
series is unfinished (or anyway the end is unpublished) so we have a
freedom to roam, question or dispute that will be denied to those who
come to the books later. Poor sods. But I'm going to make the most of the
opportunity. It's unlikely to happen again in my lifetime.

JKR's work on a pedestal? Mmm - maybe, to some. Certainly it gets my 
respect and appreciation, but mostly I look on it, and sites like this as one
of the great indoor sports of our time. All you need do is let your imagination
free and you can slug it out with others whose imaginations are just as fertile
and maybe even more convoluted.

The worth or otherwise of the characters we so ardently espouse or slight is
hardly a matter of great moment  but it does engage us. And unlike the
manipulative fakery of the celebrity circus nobody is going to tell us what
to think; God help them if they try. Every time some snide columnist or 
acid-drop  writer tries to pull one of the usual little patronising pieces
all too common in the chattering classes, they tend to retreat rapidly, usually
with a bloody nose, confused and confounded by fans not amenable to
the supine acceptance of received opinions. So satisfying! 

A childrens book? Perhaps. Didn't I read somewhere that it was Bloomsbury
that insisted on it being published as a childrens title, not JKR? Can anyone
confirm or refute that please? Personally I have my doubts about which
category it should fall into - I see it as a growing childs view of the adult
world he will soon join and have to come to terms with. IMO the adult
characters are much more interesting than the children, angst-ridden spotty
adolescents not being my thing. Additionally there're all those lovely puzzles
in there - who's who, who did what and why. Ah, all that uncertainty.

So in answer to your question, no, I don't think it is too much. Any less and
I probably wouldn't be here.

Kneasy






From Ali at zymurgy.org  Sat Mar  6 12:32:40 2004
From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 12:32:40 -0000
Subject: The Fans v JK Rowling
Message-ID: <c2cgd8+3clf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92319

All rise: this court is now in session.

Judge: Ms Rowling, you stand before us today accused of a heinous 
crime. Your maths does not add up. You know that Hermione should 
really be older than Harry. How do you plead? Guilty or not guilty?

Ms Rowling: (shuffles feet and looks sheepish). Err, I've never said 
that my maths is very good. I think there might be one or two 
inconsistencies. Hmmn

Judge: I repeat do you plead guilty or not guilty?

Ms Rowling: err, innocent until proven guilty?

Judge (enters plea of not guilty)

The Prosecution:

This case will centre around trying to solve the riddle of 
Hermione's age. It is acknowledged that there are a number of 
inconsistencies with other details involving adding up and other 
simple mathematical formulae, but it is not our aim to draw 
attention to these today. 

(audible sound from the Public Gallery of cough, Charlie and Bill's 
ages cough cough splutter).

The Defence:

The Defence will argue that the Potterverse is a make-believe World. 
Most internal consistencies can be explained or even altered at a 
later date. If Ms Rowling wishes that Hermione is younger than 
Harry, then quite simply she is.

Any arguments surrounding Ms Rowlings maths are pointless. This 
court would not exist if it were not for the word of Ms Rowling, as 
such it has no jurisdiction to try its well if not creator, generous 
benefactor.

The Prosecution:

The Hogwarts school year runs along the same lines as English 
schools: the school year begins at the beginning of September, and 
is broken down into 3 terms, finishing for the summer holidays 
sometime towards the end of June. This much is agreed by all.

Normally, English children begin their secondary education in the 
September after they turn 11. Thus *all* children would be 11 when 
they commence secondary school and become 12 at some point in their 
first year.

There is evidence that Hogwarts follows a similar system:

Angelina turns 17 in the October of her 6th year and Cedric turned 
17 at around the same time. It is admitted that the evidence 
surrounding Cedric is more circumstantial as in the Quidditch World 
Cup chapter of GoF we are told that he is "around" 17. Certainly he 
goes into the 6th year in GoF, and as a good student, would not have 
had to repeat a year, which is in any event relatively rare in 
England. He is definitely 17 prior to the Tri-Wizard tournament as 
otherwise his attempt to enter would have been rejected. 

We know that the Magic Quill writes down the names of all babies 
born with magical ability. It seems to us very unlikely that 
Professor McGonagall would then take children from future years to 
fill up a Hogwarts year group ? particularly a Muggle-born witch 
without previous magical experience.

The Defence:

In PoA, Dumbledore calls Harry and Hermione "2 13 year old wizards" ?
 canon evidence that Hermione has not yet had her birthday in the 
June.

WB have used the Lexicon timeline which gives Hermione a birthday 
after Harry ? this timeline has been approved by Ms Rowling herself.

The Prosecution:

We all know that Dumbledore said that Harry and Hermione were 13 
year olds. But, it was simply unnecessary to lengthen the sentence 
by saying a "13 wizard and 14 year old witch". He knows how old 
Harry is, so he simply generalises.

The timeline? Yes, evidence indeed. But, can we take Ms Rowling's 
word for it given that by her own admission, maths is not shall we 
say her strong point? 

Our guess is that Ms Rowling simply did not make the necessary 
calculations when she accepted Hermione's age. It required Ms 
Rowling to make the connection between the school year and the 
trio's birthdays. Quite simply, she failed to do so.

To counter any arguments about Hermione being a genius and therefore 
allowed into Hogwarts a year early, there is quite simply no 
evidence for such a situation. This does happen occasionally in 
English schools, but it seems incredibly unlikely that Hermione 
would have been able to keep her age a secret ? from even her best 
friends - for 5 years without it being remarked upon. It is unusual 
enough for it to have been remarked upon.

We also know that Ms Rowling wishes to revise all the books, 
presumably to eradicate the inconsistencies. Angelina's and Cedric's 
birthdays cannot be changed, but Hermione's is not proved 
conclusively, as yet. So Ms Rowling can still show the real date of 
Hermione's birth.

Hermione is older than Harry.

The Defence:

(Looking towards the defendant to provide comment).

We can only reiterate that Ms Rowling is the creator of the 
Potterverse, as such, her word is Law, even when her word is 
contradictory.


Ms Rowling has confirmed the Lexicon timeline, so Hermione is 
younger than Harry whatever the English school system might be, 
whenever Angelina and Cedric turn 17.


The Judge's summing up:

Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, I ask you to consider the facts. 
Is Ms Rowling's word conclusive? When is canon, canon? Some evidence 
is incontrovertible. Some is not.

In reaching your conclusion, please note that although Ms Rowling is 
said to have agreed the timeline, and therefore, seemingly, 
Hermione's age, the prosecution is submitting that Ms Rowling's 
mathematical ability might have prevented her from realising the 
implications of this statement. On its own therefore, it cannot be 
conclusive. It would seem to contradict at least some of the known 
facts, and just like her statement about Charlie and Bill's 
birthdays, must be taken with a dose of "Wishful thinking" potion.

Clearly, sometimes, Ms Rowling's word cannot be treated as "canon" 
where it contradicts her written word. Even in the books, we have 
seen errors. Make of this what you will.

Ali, realising why she ceased her legal education all those years 
ago - and still unable to accept that Hermione is younger than Harry.







From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Sat Mar  6 16:22:02 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 16:22:02 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat  "The Crucial and Central Question"
In-Reply-To: <c2b4n4+d2nr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2ctra+nle1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92320

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" <susiequsie23 at s...> 
wrote:
> 
> What I *don't* get in your argument is how much you seem to be 
> blaming Dumbledore for this.  How is DD to blame?  How is he 
> *orchestrating* Harry's future?  If Harry is Voldy's target...if the 
> prophecy is to believed--that Harry & Voldy much face each other 
> down at some point--then how is **Dumbledore** behind all this w/ 
> some master plan?  If "it's all decided", it's been decided not *by* 
> DD but by some larger "fates" or whatever.  
> 
> **Unless** you're saying that DD isn't just arranging those things 
> which will train & prepare Harry in the way he [DD] thinks will best 
> help Harry, but that he's actually **in control** of what will 
> happen?  That he knows how it all will end because he's arranged it 
> all?  Is that what you're saying?  If it is, I don't agree.  If it's 
> not, then I think you need to cut DD some slack.  In short, why is 
> the fact that Harry has to face a nasty future DD's doing or DD's 
> fault?  
> 

Blaming Dumbledore? Really? Just because I consider him to be a
cunning, devious, conniving, cold-hearted fixer doesn't mean that 
I blame him. Quite the contrary. Wars aren't won by kindly old softies.
I strongly approve of the way he's going about his business and
assuming that I'm right in my presumptions, that he will do what is 
necessary.

In the past I've leveled all sorts of 'accusations' at him; that he stood
aside at GH, more or less abandoning James and Lily so that the terms
of the Prophecy would be fulfilled being among them. But I don't
*blame* him for doing so. It was a necessary step in the formation of
Weapon!Harry. So although I speculate that he has been up to all sorts
of shenanagins and suspect even more I never call him evil or wicked.
I don't think he's anything of the sort; pragmatic with Machiavellian 
overtones is about how I'd  describe him.

So my contention that he's manipulating Harry's mind and actions is
to  be  expected from him. Maybe I haven't organised myself on this
thread well enough to make my point. It's the right thing to do and
IMO it has been wholly deliberate, one of the more visible facets of
his plan, whatever that is. But this being the case I  can't logically
agree with the idea that Harry has choices springing up around him
and that his actions are of his own volition. He doesn't and they aren't,
otherwise I'm contradicting myself. 
And DD will sacrifice Harry if it becomes necessary - which is more
important, Harry or the WW? No problem with that answer. DD has 
been fighting Voldy since before Harry was born, he knows the struggle
is about much more than Harry (though I sometimes have doubts about
whether some of the fans do). There's a possibility that JKR is trying to 
tell us this every time she hints that Harry may not survive - the battle
between good and evil can be influenced by an individual, but it's
bigger than any individual. I like to  think that that's the way DD sees
it too. He'd be a poor leader  if he didn't.

And no, I don't think he's *arranged* the ending, but I wouldn't be 
surprised if he doesn't already *know* the ending, or perhaps the
optimal way to achieve it. But to get there he has to make certain the
right pieces are more or less in the right places and that's what he's 
up to. Harry is one the pieces and he has to be in the right position
before he can be effective, whether he wants it or not. 

Kneasy  
 




From t.forch at mail.dk  Sat Mar  6 16:28:26 2004
From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 17:28:26 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE: JKR Chat
In-Reply-To: <68389000.5F3CB9EA.4B073798@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20040306172644.05bbcf00@pop3.norton.antivirus>

No: HPFGUIDX 92321

At 22:53 05-03-04 -0500, SnapesSlytherin at aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 3/5/2004 8:22:21 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>Troels Forchhammer <t.forch at mail.dk> writes:
> >

<snip>

> > As can be seen the first year Gryffindor didn't win would be
> > Charlie's second, which would mean that he helped win the Cup
> > in his first year; and that he nevertheless achieved to become
> > a legendary Gryffindor Seeker ...
>
>But wasn't Harry the youngest seeker in a century?

Exactly my point - the reason why I wrote "And the evidence
in the books should, IMO, take precedence here(i.e. - the answer
from the chat should be dismissed)."

/Troels




From t.forch at mail.dk  Sat Mar  6 16:33:30 2004
From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 17:33:30 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR Chat
In-Reply-To: <c2bnjp+5a87@eGroups.com>
References: <c2b5lr+7mp7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20040306172902.05b692e0@pop3.norton.antivirus>

No: HPFGUIDX 92322

At 05:29 06-03-04 +0000, justcarol67 wrote:
>Karen:
> >
> > Rather like the two missing Gryffindor Girls.
> >
> > By the way does everyone agree they exist, they just aren't
> > important?  She didn't say they didn't exist so they must, right?
>
>Carol:
>It's clear to me that there are ten Gryffindors in Harry's year from
>the twenty brooms (Gryffindor and Slytherin in SS/PS) and twenty pairs
>of earmuffs (Gryffindor and Hufflepuff in CoS)

That /could/ have been because there were 12 students in each of
these two houses (yielding 9 Ravenclaws in their year).

>and the eight boggartsten Gryffindors minus Harry and Hermione) in
>Lupin's first DADA class.

It has been argued that this was because the boggart was
confused - i.e. it started to assume shapes that weren't
caused by specific persons.

We now know that this wasn't the case, but we could, IMO, not
have known for sure prior to the World Book Day chat.

/Troels




From erinellii at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  6 17:29:29 2004
From: erinellii at yahoo.com (Erin)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 17:29:29 -0000
Subject: Stopper in Death
In-Reply-To: <20040306013253.55313c92.cora_dee@web.de>
Message-ID: <c2d1pp+jqv8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92323

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, cora_dee <cora_dee at w...> wrote:
> Great group, great discussions! I'm very happy to have found you :)

Erin:
Glad you did! I was just going to breeze on by this, but then I 
noticed that it hadn't been answered yet, and it would be a pity if 
no one answered your first post.

Cora_Dee: 
 
> You all know Snape's Speech about the art of potion making. And you 
remember that line about "putting a stopper in death". 
> 
> Well ... let's play! If that's the special ability potion making 
offers to a master - whose death is Snape going to stopper? 
> 
> Harry? Dumbledore? Voldemort? Sirius? Anyone else's? 


Erin:
This was my first reading of it also, actually, that Snape had the 
ability to stop someone's death. But I soon found most people think 
he is refering to poison, as in "I can put a stopper in a vial of 
poison(death)."

But supposing he really *can* stop death, I think he's already helped 
Voldemort on that front.  Voldemort says in the Graveyard 
(paraphrasing here) that one of his many experiments must have 
worked, because he didn't die when the AK rebounded on him.  I think 
it likely that an experiment or two involved some potion from Severus.


Erin








From jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com  Sat Mar  6 17:29:49 2004
From: jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com (mooseming)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 17:29:49 -0000
Subject: Stopper in Death
In-Reply-To: <20040306013253.55313c92.cora_dee@web.de>
Message-ID: <c2d1qd+kfel@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92324

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, cora_dee <cora_dee at w...> wrote:
> Great group, great discussions! I'm very happy to have found you :)
> 
> But now here's a question I didn't see answered before:
> 
> You all know Snape's Speech about the art of potion making. And you
remember that line about "putting a stopper in death". 
> 
> Well ... let's play! If that's the special ability potion making
offers to a master - whose death is Snape going to stopper? 
> 
> Harry? Dumbledore? Voldemort? Sirius? Anyone else's? 
> 
> Wondering,
> C.

Welcome C.

This is a really interesting point. I can't access my books right now
as they are packed but I'd love to re read that quote. At the time,
reading the first book, I thought it a very lyrical speach and it was
JKR showing that Snape is charismatic. Thinking on it now, given that
one of the *big* themes is death, avoiding death, worse things than
death etc its got to be very important. Does the 'stopper' comment
really mean 'stopping death'? Or is it simply a poetic description of
poison?

On the whole avoiding/cheating death is depicted as not good. From the
'acceptable' like ghosts who are generally sad and unable to move on
and  in SS/PS where ultimately Flamel destroys the stone for general
safety and DD clearly approves, to the worst in DE's, Voldy and
dementors, interfering with death is a bad thing.

Also stopping death is very difficult isn't Voldy the only one to 
conquer death without the SS/PS? 

So can Snape actually avoid death? If so would he teach his pupils
such things? It seems out of character for Snape to claim to do
something he can't but if he can what purpose has it served in the
past and as you point out what for the future, and what is the price?

So to play your what ifs.....
What if Snape is responsible for immortal Voldy?
What if Harry thinks Snape might be able to help him 'cure' Sirius?
Harry wrote this quote down after all!

Well you've certainly given me something to ponder....thanks....I
think :-)

Jo




From entropymail at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  6 17:33:08 2004
From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 17:33:08 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat  "The Crucial and Central Question"
In-Reply-To: <c2ctra+nle1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2d20k+gvih@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92325

> And no, I don't think he's *arranged* the ending, but I wouldn't be 
> surprised if he doesn't already *know* the ending, or perhaps the
> optimal way to achieve it. But to get there he has to make certain the
> right pieces are more or less in the right places and that's what he's 
> up to. Harry is one the pieces and he has to be in the right position
> before he can be effective, whether he wants it or not. 
> 
> Kneasy

I can't help feeling that this all relates to the discussions Harry
has in OOP regarding a "weapon". There are quite a few references to
Voldemort seeking a "weapon" and Harry wondering what that might be. 
Well, of course, we realize later that what he is seeking is the
prophecy.  But this leaves us with the question of why JKR chose to
use that particular word to describe things.  A prophecy is not really
a weapon; more a tool, or a means to an end.  

But, Harry! Now, Harry could very well be considered a weapon. Not
Voldemort's weapon, of course, but Dumbledore's weapon certainly. 
Through the prophecy, occlumency, and who-knows-what-else, Dumbledore
has been aware of the way things are going for quite some time now. 
He knows that Voldemort must be defeated if the WW is ever going to
recover. He also knows (or has a pretty good hunch) that this can only
be done through Harry.  Although the Order may be able to delay the
proceedings, he knows that Harry is the only one who will ultimately
be able to defeat Voldemort once and for all. He knows that he must
protect Harry's life and hone Harry's skills until he is powerful
enough to take on Voldemort and defeat him. 

So, yes, Dumbledore is probably manipulating the situation to its
final outcome. But there is nothing subversive about it. In some ways,
his hands are tied. Harry is the "weapon", but chosen not by
Dumbledore. Harry was chosen by the prophecy and marked by Voldemort.
 DD knows the deal, knows that Harry is the only weapon the Order has,
and is trying to manipulate circumstances only so far as to allow
Harry to be at the height of his powers when he finally meets
Voldemort for the last time.

:: Entropy ::






From nkafkafi at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  6 17:34:59 2004
From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 17:34:59 -0000
Subject: The Fans v JK Rowling
In-Reply-To: <c2cgd8+3clf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2d243+sd0e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92326

Ali wrote:
> All rise: this court is now in session.
> 
> Judge: Ms Rowling, you stand before us today accused of a heinous 
> crime. Your maths does not add up. You know that Hermione should 
> really be older than Harry. How do you plead? Guilty or not guilty?
> <snip of a great post. Go up-thread and read all of it>

Neri:
Ali, you are entirely right ? in regard to small Flints such as 
characters' ages or the number of students. I personally never had a 
problem with these inconsistencies either. In fact, people would have 
never attempted to construct timelines if JKR wasn't so consistent to 
begin with.

{BTW: just gleefully adding my part to the confusion around 
Hermione's age, I'll note that biologically she is actually several 
months older than she is supposed to be, because of her use of the 
time-turner to get into all those classes in PoA. The math (oh 
dear...) goes like this: Hermione goes to the Charms class from 11:00 
to 12:00, then she jumps back in time one hour and goes to the 
Ancient Runes class from 11:00 to 12:00. While for the outside world 
only one hour had passed, for Hermione it was two hours. I'm sure JKR 
was aware of this since she described how hungry was Hermione at 
lunch. For her mealtime is long past due. So by how much was Hermione 
aged during that year? If we assume that for about 9 months, she was 
repeating a third of each 24 hrs day (normal teaching hours), then 
she added a third of those 9 months, or additional 3 months. This 
means that at her 15th birthday (whenever it was!) she was 
biologically 15 years and 3 months old...}

Back to my main point, the real problem with these inconsistencies is 
when they get into the central plot. This is why the order of the 
wand echos in GoF was the only flint that was corrected. Because it 
is essential to the main plot. And this is why small flints make me 
worry. Not because I care about them, but because I'm afraid JKR 
might make a major blunder in the "most crucial and central" part. 
This is also my fear regarding using a big time-travel twist. Unlike 
many group members (or so it seems) I don't have any principal 
problem with using time-travel as a main plot device, but I know how 
easy it is to get it wrong, and I really don't want to wait so much 
for Book 7 only to find some unresolved, mountain-size Flint sitting 
smack in the middle of the main plot.  

Neri, 
hoping his fears will turn out to be unfounded 





From idcre at imap2.asu.edu  Sat Mar  6 17:41:22 2004
From: idcre at imap2.asu.edu (backstagemystic)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 17:41:22 -0000
Subject: Snape NOT a Vampire (Was  The Marauders are all Gryff...
In-Reply-To: <c2anmr+e65l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2d2g2+r8dn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92328

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "doliesl" <doliesl at y...> wrote:

>>As for the uncertainty implication of her words,
it seems to me that JKR is surprised by this question (like "where on 
earth you guys think there's any vampire link to Snape?") and wonder 
if it is a trick question.<<

While it does seem that she's putting a lid on the rumor (despite the 
disappointing weakness of her answer), I find it hard to believe she 
didn't know the theory was out there, or recognize that there are 
numerous hints, or red herrings (which I think she put there 
deliberately), in her books that would pique fan curiosity along 
those lines.  

I'm not going to rehash the clues here, because there have been 
countless posts, web pages and debates devoted to the subject.

Ironically, no site has yet to get all of the clues (and their 
*implications*) together on one page, but when enough of the clues 
are put together, there IS a good case for the speculation.

I never thought Snape was a vampire, but I was a fence-sitter when it 
came to "part-vamp" theories or other theories linking him to 
vampirism in some way...if for no other reason than the fact that 
Voldemort is obsessed with conquering death/obtaining immortality; 
hence, it makes perfect sense that he and his Dark-Arts 
mongering "Death Eaters" (aptly named in this regard) would research 
vampires and vampirism with that goal in mind.

BM

"Wonder what they'll give us next year?" said Seamus Finnigan 
gloomily.
"Maybe a vampire," suggested Dean Thomas hopefully.

(Think Snape will ever get the DADA job?).





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sat Mar  6 17:44:12 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 17:44:12 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Harry and Hermione
In-Reply-To: <c2ahib+p4cr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2d2lc+fogv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92329

 
 Samnanya:
 >>(re Pippin)
 I never thought I would disagree with Pippin because her 
theories,  whether ultimately right or wrong, are always well 
thought out. <<

Thank you ! :-)

Samnanya:
>> But this time..... 
 I am curious what you mean by "I think Harry would be happier 
in a more equal relationship, myself."?  More equal than what? 
There is a balance in Harry/Hermione that is evident in all of their 
exploits.  Harry respects her opinion, which is more based on 
her Ravenclaw  tendencies than her Griffindor ones.  She cares 
for Harry greatly -  much more than as a friend, and the feeling is 
mutual. When she is  injured at the MOM Harry is nearly 
paralyzed with brainlock. His powerful response when Neville 
says that he feels a pulse is both intensely physical and 
emotional. <<

Pippin:
 Unequal doesn't have to  mean exploitative. Their relationship is 
obviously equally beneficial to both--but she has an influence 
over him that he doesn't have over her.

Harry identifies his interior nagger, his superego if you will, as 
Hermione. And he needs someone to personify that voice for 
him, since he only briefly had a loving parent in his life. That's 
fine, as long as he and Hermione aren't romantically involved, or 
trying to be.    But while it's necessary for  people  to form an 
emotional connection to  parent surrogates like  coaches and  
therapists  and *very* easy to identify those feelings with 
romantic love,  it's usually a bad idea to act on that basis.

The roles are  in conflict. The parent, the coach, the therapist, 
must ultimately let go, whereas the goal of lovers is to grow ever 
closer. 

Look at the way Harry  lies  to avoid Hermione's nagging.  If he 
thought of himself as her equal, he wouldn't need to do that. He'd 
just tell her to shut up already, which is, you'll note, what Ron 
does whenever he's had enough. 

Pippin





From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com  Sat Mar  6 17:56:26 2004
From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 17:56:26 -0000
Subject: FILK: Take This Bane from Lockhart
Message-ID: <c2d3ca+euh7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92330


Take This Bane from Lockhart

To the tune of Hank Williams' Take These Chains From My Heart

A MIDI at:

http://members.fortunecity.com/ajsmidi/alpcond/alpha_20/t.html 

Dedicated to Ginger

THE SCENE: St. Mungo's. GLADYS GUDGEON, Lockhart's most devoted fan, 
pleads with Mungo's staff to restore her hero to his full mental 
vigour. 

GLADYS:
Take this bane from Lockhart and set him free
He has lost all his long-term memory
He once holiday'd with hags, but now can't recall his brags
Take this bane from Lockhart and set him free

He once signed photos with a peacock quill
Now his joined-up writing is wanting skill
On the closed ward he's confined until you restore his mind
Take this bane from Lockhart and set him free

Let Lockhart bring the world to harmony 
Even though he was just a bit smarmy
Is there anesthesia to cure his amnesia? 
Take this bane from Lockhart and set him free 

Oh, St. Mungo's, please let my Lockhart go
..
 
   -	CMC

HARRY POTTER FILKS
http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm





From rredordead at aol.com  Sat Mar  6 18:10:05 2004
From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 18:10:05 -0000
Subject: Shake-up at the Ministry
In-Reply-To: <20040305214223.3315.qmail@web13807.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c2d45t+63q8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92331

> Canada wrote:
> I think Arthur Weasley could do the job of Minister of
> Magic - I just don't think he would want it. It's
> going to be a high stress job, and will require high
> level management and delegation skills, which he may
> have but I bet he doesn't enjoy working that way. For
> all his grumbling, I think he gets a kick out of the
> hand-on parts of his job - regurgitating toilets and
> all. OTOH, maybe not wanting the job would be part of
> what would make him a good minister - he does seem
> able to ask for help if he needs it and wouldn't stick
> the job a moment longer than he had to.

Mandy here:
Far better than Arthur as Minister is his wife Molly.  She really is 
the best person for a high stress job that requires high management 
and delegation skills.   I'm know other people have mentioned this 
before, but I can't remember whom off the top of my head.  Sorry to 
not credit you here.  Molly Weasley is also a fierce fighter and will 
not back down to anyone in a fight.  Look at the way she deals with 
an angry Sirius in OotP. She didn't flinch or was in any way 
intimidated by him. Which is saying something. Sirius Black is a 
scary guy.   Molly would make an interesting and strong war time 
Minister.

Anyway, having said that, I don't see JKR making Molly Minister 
however as she seemingly has no experience. Unless it turns out that 
Molly worked in politics before she started having all those kids. 
But some how I doubt it.

Mandy





From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Sat Mar  6 18:12:30 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 18:12:30 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat  "The Crucial and Central Question"
In-Reply-To: <c2ctra+nle1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2d4ae+n1of@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92332

Susan:
> > What I *don't* get in your argument is how much you seem to be 
> > blaming Dumbledore for this.  How is DD to blame?  How is he 
> > *orchestrating* Harry's future?  If Harry is Voldy's target...if 
> > the prophecy is to believed--that Harry & Voldy much face each 
> > other down at some point--then how is **Dumbledore** behind all 
> > this w/ some master plan?  If "it's all decided", it's been 
> > decided not *by* DD but by some larger "fates" or whatever.  
> > 
> > **Unless** you're saying that DD isn't just arranging those 
> > things which will train & prepare Harry in the way he [DD] 
> > thinks will best help Harry, but that he's actually **in 
> > control** of what will happen?  That he knows how it all will 
> > end because he's arranged it all?  

Kneasy replied:
> Blaming Dumbledore? Really? Just because I consider him to be a
> cunning, devious, conniving, cold-hearted fixer doesn't mean that 
> I blame him. Quite the contrary. Wars aren't won by kindly old 
> softies. I strongly approve of the way he's going about his 
> business and assuming that I'm right in my presumptions, that he 
> will do what is necessary.
> 
> In the past I've leveled all sorts of 'accusations' at him; that 
> he stood aside at GH, more or less abandoning James and Lily so 
> that the terms of the Prophecy would be fulfilled being among 
> them. But I don't *blame* him for doing so. It was a necessary 
> step in the formation of Weapon!Harry. So although I speculate 
> that he has been up to all sorts of shenanagins and suspect even 
> more I never call him evil or wicked. I don't think he's anything 
> of the sort; pragmatic with Machiavellian overtones is about how 
> I'd  describe him.
> 
> So my contention that he's manipulating Harry's mind and actions is
> to  be  expected from him. <snip> But this being the case I  can't 
> logically agree with the idea that Harry has choices springing up 
> around him and that his actions are of his own volition. He 
> doesn't and they aren't, otherwise I'm contradicting myself. 

> ***And DD will sacrifice Harry if it becomes necessary - which is 
> more important, Harry or the WW? No problem with that answer. DD 
> has been fighting Voldy since before Harry was born, he knows the 
> struggle is about much more than Harry (though I sometimes have 
> doubts about whether some of the fans do).*** [emphasis added by 
> Susan] 
<snip> And no, I don't think he's *arranged* the ending, but I 
> wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't already *know* the ending, or 
> perhaps the optimal way to achieve it. 


Susan:
Merci for the detailed explanation of how you read DD.  I am much 
relieved to understand the you approve of whatever it is that DD is 
up to. <g> Also that he's not arranged the ending so much as perhaps 
knows the ending.  Now I see why you *must* say that Harry's choices 
aren't real choices at all.  We may not agree, but your message is 
clearer to me now.

One question remains for me.  If DD knows the ending, then surely he 
knows whether Harry survives or not?  Does DD believe the prophecy?  
If he does, and if we've understood it properly, then how could it 
ever come to DD's needing to sacrifice Harry to the greater cause of 
saving the WW/defeating Voldy?  Doesn't it have to be Harry & Co. 
winning or Voldy & Co. winning?  Or do you have a different take on 
the prophecy--that there might be some wiggle room for someone other 
than Harry as the vanquisher?

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From idcre at imap2.asu.edu  Sat Mar  6 18:16:45 2004
From: idcre at imap2.asu.edu (backstagemystic)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 18:16:45 -0000
Subject: JKR chat--Snape the coward or the one left forever?
In-Reply-To: <c2bpl0+t4bv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2d4id+9kvl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92333

I think Snape himself makes it clear who the coward is:

>From GoF, p.710 Am Hard Cover:

"Why do you think Karkaroff fled tonight?  We both felt the Mark 
burn.  We both knew he had returned.  Karkaroff fears the Dark Lord's 
vengeance.  He betrayed too many of his fellow Death Eaters to be 
sure of a welcome back into the fold."

I don't believe JKR even intended us to consider whether or not Snape 
was the "coward," because she was too busy making us think that Snape 
was the "loyal" one (until Crouch Jr. was revealed at the end).

But, one never knows...she's a tricky one, she is.

BM






From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sat Mar  6 18:44:35 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 18:44:35 -0000
Subject: JKR chat--Snape the coward or the one left forever?
In-Reply-To: <c2d4id+9kvl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2d66j+6vs3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92334

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "backstagemystic" 
<idcre at i...> wrote:
> I think Snape himself makes it clear who the coward is:
> 
> From GoF, p.710 Am Hard Cover:
> 
> "Why do you think Karkaroff fled tonight?  We both felt the Mark 
> burn.  We both knew he had returned.  Karkaroff fears the Dark 
Lord's vengeance.  He betrayed too many of his fellow Death 
Eaters to be  sure of a welcome back into the fold."
> 
> I don't believe JKR even intended us to consider whether or not 
Snape  was the "coward," because she was too busy making us 
think that Snape was the "loyal" one (until Crouch Jr. was 
revealed at the end).
>

I have sometimes wondered if Karkaroff didn't take the rap for a 
great many of Snape's betrayals as a cover story, so that while 
Voldemort *thinks* that Snape is the one who was cowardly and 
Karkaroff the one who betrayed him, the situation is actually 
reversed. Now that's confusing!

Pippin




From BrwNeil at aol.com  Sat Mar  6 19:05:30 2004
From: BrwNeil at aol.com (BrwNeil at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 14:05:30 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Harry and Hermione
Message-ID: <24.50903270.2d7b7afa@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92335

In a message dated 3/6/2004 1:19:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
foxmoth at qnet.com writes:
Harry identifies his interior nagger, his superego if you will, as 
Hermione. And he needs someone to personify that voice for 
him, since he only briefly had a loving parent in his life. That's 
fine, as long as he and Hermione aren't romantically involved, or 
trying to be.    But while it's necessary for  people  to form an 
emotional connection to  parent surrogates like  coaches and  
therapists  and *very* easy to identify those feelings with 
romantic love,  it's usually a bad idea to act on that basis.

The roles are  in conflict. The parent, the coach, the therapist, 
must ultimately let go, whereas the goal of lovers is to grow ever 
closer. 

Look at the way Harry  lies  to avoid Hermione's nagging.  If he 
thought of himself as her equal, he wouldn't need to do that. He'd 
just tell her to shut up already, which is, you'll note, what Ron 
does whenever he's had enough. 

Pippin
Hermione helpfully nags both Ron and Harry.  The difference in my mind is 
that Harry values Hermione's opinion and is often torn in his decision making 
because of it.  After PotP, he will even value her opinion more. 

Ron on the other hand is a stubborn git who can never see any view point 
other than his own.  Ron is usually wrong, but always considers himself right. 

I don't understand how Ron's ability to tell Hermione to shut up makes them 
better material for being a couple.  They have two different mind sets.  Ron 
envies rich families with elves, Hermione wants them free.  Like oil and water, 
they can be shaken together, but will eventually separated. 

If arguing and fighting makes for a good relationship, then Rowling has erred 
by not bringing Malfoy and Hermione together.

Neil 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rredordead at aol.com  Sat Mar  6 19:05:43 2004
From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 19:05:43 -0000
Subject: 'the one who left  for ever'  Was:  JKR chat
In-Reply-To: <c2b0v5+8r0t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2d7e7+gvej@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92336

> > Susan wrote:
> > Not necessarily, I don't think, Carol.  Why couldn't Snape be the 
> > coward who would be punished?  This could explain why there 
hasn't  been a rift between Snape & the Malfoys.  If Lucius believed 
Snape  was the betrayer who'd left forever, he'd sever ties with 
Snape,  wouldn't he?  <snip>
 
> Carol:
<snip> I don't think Lucius Malfoy believes Snape has left forever, 
>nor would he think that Snape is a coward. IMO Snape simply 
>explained to him that he couldn't apparate from Hogwarts or arouse 
>DD's Suspicions by leaving the Tri-Wizard Tournament to appear in 
>the graveyard, and Malfoy passed that explanation on to LV, who was 
>either persuaded or pretended to be persuaded because he thought 
>that continued communication between Snape and Malfoy could be 
>useful. Snape, being Snape, could probably persuade them both.


Mandy here:
Sorry I had to snip both of your interesting posts. The elves are out 
in full force these days, and I only have a responce to a small part 
of both.

You both seem to imply that Lucius Malfoy can't believe that Snape 
is 'the one who left forever,' as if he did, he would sever all ties 
with him.  I disagree.   For Malfoy, it actually doesn't matter where 
Snape's true loyalties lie, as long as he (Malfoy) believes they lie 
somewhere, and he (Malfoy) has those options and eventualities 
covered.  Which of course, the brilliant Malfoy does.  No question, 
as he would be a fool not to, and all the better to control Snape 
with.  

What matters to Malfoy is, that he believes he has a loyal mole 
(regardless of which side Snape is truly on) planted inside Hogwarts, 
who is supplying him with information for the Boss. Information that 
even does not have to be on the Order and it's movements, but 
information on DD and Harry Potter.  LV two most important enemys.  
Whether Snape is really passing on valid or crucial info or not is 
irrelevant, as long as it appears to be so.  What matters is that 
Malfoy has an 'in' at Hogwarts and it makes him look golden to LV.

Malfoy, LV and the world can believe that Snape has 'left for ever' 
but no one can deny Snape is still visible as Malfoy's 'lap dog' and 
is leading people, DD and HP, to believe that he is spying on LV. So 
Snape has to have a real relationship with Malfoy. One that is 
convincing. Snape has to be passing on info to the LV as well as 
taking info back to the Order. But others on this site have argued 
that far more effectively that I ever could.

So, for Malfoy, if he believes Snape is really a loyal DE, great. 
Snape has convincingly fooled DD and is filtering info on to LV.  
Or if Malfoy believes Snape is really a loyal member of the Order and 
a traitor to LV, great.  As Snape is still, to the world 
Malfoy's 'friend' and for want of a better term 'lap dog,' and to 
maintain that position Snape has to work for Malfoy, do what Malfoy 
desires.  Malfoy has a potential gold mine of information in Snape to 
tap when he chooses, or so he thinks.  Malfoy could very well believe 
that he has manipulated Snape into the position where at any moment, 
at Malfoy discretion; Snape will have no choice but to tell all to LV 
and the DE.  

The question here is, is Snape smart, strong and brave enough to 
allow Malfoy to believe this? Even if it is not true?  I think Snape 
is that clever and that brave. 

Mandy





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  6 19:19:37 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 19:19:37 -0000
Subject: Stopper in Death
In-Reply-To: <c2d1qd+kfel@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2d889+7qjk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92337

Jo wrote:
<snip> I'd love to re read that quote. At the time, reading the first
book, I thought it a very lyrical speach and it was JKR showing that
Snape is charismatic. Thinking on it now, given that one of the *big*
themes is death, avoiding death, worse things than death etc its got
to be very important. Does the 'stopper' comment really mean 'stopping
death'? Or is it simply a poetic description of poison?
<snip>
 
Also stopping death is very difficult isn't Voldy the only one to 
conquer death without the SS/PS? 
 
So can Snape actually avoid death? If so would he teach his pupils
such things? It seems out of character for Snape to claim to do
something he can't but if he can what purpose has it served in the
past and as you point out what for the future, and what is the price?

So to play your what ifs.....
What if Snape is responsible for immortal Voldy?
What if Harry thinks Snape might be able to help him 'cure' Sirius?

Harry wrote this quote down after all!
 
Carol:
I'm not sure what you mean by "Harry wrote this quote down, after
all." Movie contamination? Harry isn't the narrator; the narrator is
merely recounting his experiences from his point of view (with
exceptions that I've discussed in other threads).

But to get to the main idea here, what Snape means by his poetic
assertion that he can "put a stopper in death": I agree that he
wouldn't claim to do something that he can't do and I don't think he
merely means that he can create poisons (or antidotes, which would
make more sense to me). I certainly do think that the speech serves to
make Snape charismatic, at least to readers, and both mysterious and
dangerous in the minds of his students. Both in terms of his power and
his personality, this is not a teacher to mess around with.

But you're right that it must also mean more, rather like the riddle
he poses as one of the obstacles in the passage to the sorceror's
(philosopher's) stone. As a Snape fan, I much prefer to think that his
role as a (young) DE involved potion making rather than Crucioing and
AKing LV's opponents. His great abilities as a potion maker (combined
with a precocious mastery of occlumency) could have enabled him to
become a member of LV's inner circle at an early age and remain there
during the year or so he served as a spy for Dumbledore before the
events at Godric's Hollow. It also makes more sense that Dumbledore
would hire a young man who had tried to help Voldemort achieve
immortality and regretted it than one who had murdered or tortured
Muggles or Muggle-borns. Surely he wouldn't want someone so dangerous
teaching his students?

As for Snape "curing" Sirius: I don't think Snape or anyone else can
"stopper" death after it has happened, especially when the body has
been snatched away beyond anyone's reach. (JKR has made it clear that
the dead don't return, so if we're going to see more of Sirius, it
will be in memories, photos, or portraits.) Besides, if Snape could
bring anyone back from the dead, it wouldn't be Sirius, and I doubt if
he would teach his students to do so, either.

Anyway, I like the theory that young Snape's role as a DE consisted
mostly of trying to help LV achieve immortality. It fits with both his
abilities and his ambitions (a craving for recognition that has not
yet been satisfied). Maybe when LV started expecting him to do worse
things (Unforgiveable Curses?), he started having doubts and went to
DD for help. But unlike Regulus Black, he was smart enough not to
express those doubts in front of LV or his chief followers.

Carol, who wishes she could get Snape completely off the hook but is
afraid it's impossible




From siskiou at msn.com  Sat Mar  6 19:21:22 2004
From: siskiou at msn.com (Susanne)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 11:21:22 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Harry and Hermione
In-Reply-To: <24.50903270.2d7b7afa@aol.com>
References: <24.50903270.2d7b7afa@aol.com>
Message-ID: <502651901.20040306112122@msn.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92338



Hi,

Saturday, March 6, 2004, 11:05:30 AM, BrwNeil wrote:

> Ron on the other hand is a stubborn git who can never see any view point
> other than his own.

I thought that was Hermione's modus operandi ;)

>  Ron is usually wrong, but always considers himself right.

Nope, he doesn't. He's able to get past his prejudice (see
Hargrid, Lupin, Dobby).

Ron and Hermione have grown up in different cultures, which
explains why their experiences and opinions sometimes
differ.

> I don't understand how Ron's ability to tell Hermione to shut up makes them
> better material for being a couple.  They have two different mind sets.  Ron
> envies rich families with elves, Hermione wants them free.  Like oil and water,
> they can be shaken together, but will eventually separated.

Having a different opinion on some things doesn't make a
relationship impossible. Otherwise, there would be no chance
for Harry and Hermione, either, or anyone.

The perfect harmony between Harry and Hermione only exists
in phantasy, not in HP canon.

It's the ability to talk about things, instead of one
pressing and the other avoiding or ignoring, that's the
important issue.


> If arguing and fighting makes for a good relationship, then Rowling has erred
> by not bringing Malfoy and Hermione together.

You truly don't see a difference between the way Hermione
and Draco interact, compared to Hermione and Ron?
You don't see the caring that's underneath their bickering,
and you don't see all the interactions they have without
bickering?

-- 
Best regards,
 Susanne                           mailto:siskiou at msn.com







From Justine74 at aol.com  Sat Mar  6 10:12:43 2004
From: Justine74 at aol.com (Justine74 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 05:12:43 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Harry and Hermione
Message-ID: <7f.436e6d19.2d7afe1b@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92339

In a message dated 3/5/2004 6:52:55 PM Central Standard Time, 
kreneeb at hotmail.com writes:

 Kitten writes:
<As for Ginny Weasley...someone, I think on this list, called her 
<Ron-with-boobs, I LOVED THAT! It totally says it all. That is why I 
<can't stand H/G. It's just too perfect! I think that JKR can come up 
<with something a lot better then "best friend's little sister" (who 
<would be great for Neville). 
I reply:

I would have to completely agree with you here.  I mean Harry has already 
been an honorary member of the Weasley family for years.  Not that guys don't 
fall in love with their best friends little sisters everyday, but in this case, I 
agree, it would just seem too easy for JKR to put Harry with Ginny.  

Though unfortunately, since I am not a fan of the H/G ship, there is 
significant canon support for it with Ginny's constant crushing and the emergence of 
Ginny as a larger presence in OOTP.  Yet, all that could also prove to be a 
massive red herring as well.  We'll have to wait and see.  In addition, there is 
some canon support for the Ginny/Neville ship.  Ginny treats Neville very 
decently throughout OOTP, to such a point that she actually attempts to lift his 
confidence several times.  Her kindness towards him is very noticeable, because 
she is rather gruff at times with everyone else.  More importantly, Neville 
showed a fondness for her in OOTP in that he puts himself at risk to protect 
her from harm.

Kitten writes:

<Now that I angered 99% of the people on this list, I just wanted to 
<say that I would love for Harry to get together with a ghost character, 
<someone like Hannah, Lisa, Sally-Anne, (come on... shout it out loud if 
<you agree) I have to admit...my heart is set on Susan, but truthfully I 
<don't care just as long as it's not Hermione, Ginny, or Luna. I think 
<that what was said with the interview could be meant for any girl not 
<just Hermione and Ginny. 

<In my opinion even with two books left Harry could wind up kissing 
<anybody, and I think that it would be great to take a "ghost" girl 
<and develop her. Not only will it make for interesting reading, but 
<we will get insight into other houses besides Gryffindor >>

I reply:

I'm shouting it out!! :-) I am onboard for a ghost girl!!! <g>  In fact, I 
responded to you a few weeks ago with my "crazy Susan Bones theory." <bg>  And I 
also agree that none of JKR's answers in the chat made such a scenario 
impossible.  She just said that he would getting kissed more.  I also agree that he 
could wind up kissing anybody in the next two books.  

In my opinion, even one book is sufficient time for JKR to develop a new or 
previously background character.  I mean look how important Luna became with 
just one book.  She started off on a train and ended up being part of Harry's 
"core" people.  And it was done without most people thinking it was rushed or 
overly contrived because JKR did a good job in the telling.  She did the same 
thing with Lupin and Sirius. One book, POA, catapulted the two of them to the 
status of "major character."  I know for me personally, (and maybe this is 
partly because POA was the book that really turned me into a fan), it was almost 
like forgetting what the books were like before Sirius and Lupin came along.  

JKR is a very talented person.  She could smoothly make Lisa Turpin seem 
"core" by the end of Book 6 if she wanted to, nevermind someone like Susan Bones, 
who actually has had something of a history laid for her in previous books.  
And I completely agree, it would be so interesting and fun to be able to go 
through the development of a new major character.  It was certainly a blast 
reading about Luna in OOTP.  It was great having Cho fleshed out from this pretty, 
sweet girl to this high-maintenance girl with a lot of her own pain and 
insecurities.  And it was certainly great to start to get to know all the different 
DA kids from the different houses.  In fact, having Harry end up with someone 
non-Gryffindor would provide some underlining support for the "unity across 
dividing lines" theme.

So though I think the odds are stacked against a Harry/ghost girl ship, I 
definitely do not think it's outside the realm of possibility. :-)

DJ


  


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





From Justine74 at aol.com  Sat Mar  6 10:36:15 2004
From: Justine74 at aol.com (Justine74 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 05:36:15 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Harry and Hermione
Message-ID: <b7.3d5e8ea7.2d7b039f@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92340

In a message dated 3/5/2004 7:31:20 PM Central Standard Time, 
hickengruendler at yahoo.de writes:
<<Again, I agree. I honestly like Luna, but I can't see her with Harry. 
<<By the way, didn't JKR say, that Harry would be with a girl who was 
<<in all books, or am I imagine that? That would clearly rule out Luna.
I reply:

I absolutely adore Luna, but I completely agree with you.  I loved how they 
bonded at the end of OOTP, and I love her quirkly, non-judgmental personality.  
However, I see her as being this great platonic friend for Harry in future 
books.  She's just so open and oddly calm that I could see him telling her 
things that he might have trouble telling other people.  For example, I would not 
be surprised if Luna learned about the Prophecy before Ron and Hermione did; 
not because Harry is somehow closer to Luna than Ron and Hermione (I think Ron 
and Hermione will always be his closest friends), but because it might be 
easier to tell someone like Luna, because being the spacey kind of girl she is, she 
probably would not react as strongly to the news as Ron and Hermione would 
and because their strong reactions would probably be quite upsetting for him to 
see.

As for that JKR quote, I could have sworn that I read someplace that she said 
that Harry would eventually be paired up with someone who was mentioned in 
the *first book.*  (Though I can't seem to find where I read it).  But that 
would eliminate Luna as well.

Hickengruendler writes:

<<I don't like this much either. Plain and simply because I don't like 
<<Ginny all that much. I think she's the character with the most 
<<unconvincing development, especially the way how it was done. 
<<However, I am afraid that's what we are leading for.

I reply:

Yeah, when it comes right down to it, my dislike for Ginny is the reason I am 
not in favor of the H/G ship.  I suppose I don't have massively good reasons 
for disliking her, but in general, from Books 1-4, I found her to be this very 
weepy, fairly weak individual who seemed to be constantly in need of 
someone's protection, when other people like Ron and Hermione, who were of similar 
age, just seemed a lot tougher.  It's probably very unfair of me, but anytime I 
thought of her character, I thought of her crying.  I definitely didn't think 
she was strong enough for Harry. I also didn't care for the "Famous Harry 
Potter" implications of her crush.  

I also agree with you about her OOTP development as being unconvincing.  I 
usually accept anything JKR puts out hook, line and sinker.  But one line in COS 
about Ginny talking a lot when Harry is not around, does not provide 
sufficient foundation for the sudden appearance of this hex-throwing, great 
Quidditch-playing, boyfriend-changing, sharp-tongued girl.  Though I completely agree, I 
think the books are probably heading in a H/G direction.

DJ




 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





From cora_dee at web.de  Sat Mar  6 11:07:28 2004
From: cora_dee at web.de (cora_dee)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 12:07:28 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Stopper in Death
In-Reply-To: <20040306013253.55313c92.cora_dee@web.de>
References: <20040306013253.55313c92.cora_dee@web.de>
Message-ID: <20040306120728.582580c8.cora_dee@web.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 92341

On Sat, 6 Mar 2004 01:32:53 +0100
cora_dee <cora_dee at web.de> wrote:

> Well ... let's play! If that's the special ability potion making offers to a master - whose death is Snape going to stopper? 
> 
> Harry? Dumbledore? Voldemort? Sirius? Anyone else's? 


Bugger ... I forgot to include Snape himself in the list. He might be as likely a candidate ... 

C.




From Justine74 at aol.com  Sat Mar  6 11:07:40 2004
From: Justine74 at aol.com (Justine74 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 06:07:40 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Harry and Hermione
Message-ID: <1e4.1a9e8023.2d7b0afc@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92342

<<In a message dated 3/6/2004 1:45:49 AM Central Standard Time, 
lhuntley at fandm.edu <<writes:
<<As for Ginny and Harry -- don't even get me started.  Something about 
<<Ginny -- I just can't stand the girl ... Anyway, more recently 
<<I've been less . . . er, irrationally rageful towards the girl, but I 
<<still feel she's badly developed, fangirlish, possibly evil, etc.
I reply:

Since, for whatever irrational reason <g>, I've suddenly decided to delurk 
and tell this list that I have problems with Ginny's character, I just had to 
reply to this bit of your post. As I just responded to Hickengruendler, I agree 
that there are some character development problems with her (the GOF Ginny to 
OOTP was just out of left field to me).   In addition, Ginny's fangirl ways in 
the earlier books definitely made me hope that JKR would put Harry with 
someone else.

However, it's your mention of Ginny as being "potentially evil" that I find 
the most interesting.  I haven't been involved with HP discussion long enough 
to know if this is a widely-held view or not, and I don't know if I think she's 
actually evil, but I do know that when I was reading OOTP that there were a 
few points where I wondered if she still had some residual effects from her 
time when Tom Riddle and she were basically sharing a life-force.  The one 
example that springs to mind is something very little, but it stuck with me for some 
reason.  It was when they were all at Grimmauld Place around the time the 
kids were trying to listen in on the Order meeting, and JKR describes Ginny as 
either "cooly lying" to her mother, or "lying without batting an eye" ... 
something like that.  (It's too late to go searching the book <g>).  I just found it 
interesting that JKR took the time to point out that Ginny lies very easily, 
especially in light of the fact that, though H/H/R have often lied, they often 
show some guilt, whether it be a blink or being flustered or whatever.  This 
is not always the case with them when they lie, but it has happened enough to 
show that H/H/R are not "born liars" or anything even close.  I'm not trying 
to say that JKR is trying to say that Ginny is a "born liar" either.  She may 
just be showing Ginny to have the capability to be cool and calm.  But then 
again, she didn't need to show Ginny lying to show that.  I don't know what it 
all means, but I do think Ginny's final characterization may still be up for 
grabs.

DJ


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Sat Mar  6 16:54:36 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 06 Mar 2004 17:54:36 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR Chat  "The Crucial and Central Question"
Message-ID: <20040306165436.E2CEC16441@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 92343

> Kneasy:
 
> Blaming Dumbledore? Really? Just because I consider him to be a
> cunning, devious, conniving, cold-hearted fixer doesn't mean that 
> I blame him. Quite the contrary. Wars aren't won by kindly old softies.
> I strongly approve of the way he's going about his business and
> assuming that I'm right in my presumptions, that he will do what is 
> necessary.

Good point. In OotP we finally saw the darker side of Dumble. He know what's to be done and it's doing it (this doesn't mean he can't err). For sure he didn't won over Grindevald with his sweets (unless he suffocated him with Turtle Toffee).

> So my contention that he's manipulating Harry's mind and actions is
> to  be  expected from him. It's the right thing to do and
> IMO it has been wholly deliberate, one of the more visible facets of
> his plan, whatever that is. But this being the case I  can't logically
> agree with the idea that Harry has choices springing up around him
> and that his actions are of his own volition. He doesn't and they aren't,
> otherwise I'm contradicting myself. 

Yet he could withdraw several times - although in "Hero Development" terms it would mean he failed. His choices are very limited, but so far he decided to play along.

> And no, I don't think he's *arranged* the ending, but I wouldn't be 
> surprised if he doesn't already *know* the ending, or perhaps the
> optimal way to achieve it. But to get there he has to make certain the
> right pieces are more or less in the right places and that's what he's 
> up to. Harry is one the pieces and he has to be in the right position
> before he can be effective, whether he wants it or not. 

Yep, that's a problem - his exercices in free will may end up in his ineffectivity in final fight. So he possibly wil have to resign from his "free choice" to win the final fight. Now the question is how aware he is/will be of the choice. Because somebody who is playing along with rules set by other does not necessary mean he is not executing his rght for free choice. He may fully consciously agree to fulfill his role, even if it means complete "conformism". This a song of the future in the moment. I'd like only to stress that by no means we should equall "revolt" with "free will/choice".

Cheers, Viridis


________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!




From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Sat Mar  6 18:30:11 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 06 Mar 2004 19:30:11 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR Chat  "The Crucial and Central Question"
Message-ID: <20040306183011.CBA3516443@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 92344

 
> Kneasy replied:
> > ***And DD will sacrifice Harry if it becomes necessary - which is 
> > more important, Harry or the WW? No problem with that answer. DD 
> > has been fighting Voldy since before Harry was born, he knows the 
> > struggle is about much more than Harry (though I sometimes have 
> > doubts about whether some of the fans do).*** [emphasis added by 
> > Susan] 
> <snip> And no, I don't think he's *arranged* the ending, but I 
> > wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't already *know* the ending, or 
> > perhaps the optimal way to achieve it. 
> 
> Susan:
> One question remains for me.  If DD knows the ending, then surely he 
> knows whether Harry survives or not?  Does DD believe the prophecy?  
> If he does, and if we've understood it properly, then how could it 
> ever come to DD's needing to sacrifice Harry to the greater cause of 
> saving the WW/defeating Voldy?  Doesn't it have to be Harry & Co. 
> winning or Voldy & Co. winning?  Or do you have a different take on 
> the prophecy--that there might be some wiggle room for someone other 
> than Harry as the vanquisher?

Dumble may "know" the ending as "the best and the most convenient setting of a last battle, with such and such persons in such and such roles, and the persons in question should be in such and such frame of mind and properly prepared." All these arranged, the outcome is still open - because something may always happen.
So no, he is not going to substitute anybod for the vanquisher, but for vanquisher to fullfil his role, some other conditions must be fullfilled.

Cheers, Viridis
________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!




From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Sat Mar  6 20:28:28 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 20:28:28 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat  "The Crucial and Central Question"
In-Reply-To: <c2d4ae+n1of@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2dc9c+afbq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92345

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" <susiequsie23 at s...> 
wrote:
> Merci for the detailed explanation of how you read DD.  I am much 
> relieved to understand the you approve of whatever it is that DD is 
> up to. <g> Also that he's not arranged the ending so much as perhaps 
> knows the ending.  Now I see why you *must* say that Harry's choices 
> aren't real choices at all.  We may not agree, but your message is 
> clearer to me now.
>

Kneasy:
Ta muchly. Sorry it took so long for me to get my words in the right 
order so that my meaning was (moderately) clear.

As to how much he can see - well, that's up for grabs. As a *very*
rough analogy, and I'm by no means offering this as an hypothesis,
it's  as if he has knowledge of a series of events, each a marker post 
along the route that must be taken. This would be the guide to his plan.
Interestingly, I think his plan came off the rails in GoF. The Portkey Cup
was a surprise, I think, but the events in the graveyard that produced
that famous gleam told him it was alright again.
 
Sue:
> One question remains for me.  If DD knows the ending, then surely he 
> knows whether Harry survives or not?  Does DD believe the prophecy?  
> If he does, and if we've understood it properly, then how could it 
> ever come to DD's needing to sacrifice Harry to the greater cause of 
> saving the WW/defeating Voldy?  Doesn't it have to be Harry & Co. 
> winning or Voldy & Co. winning?  Or do you have a different take on 
> the prophecy--that there might be some wiggle room for someone other 
> than Harry as the vanquisher?
 
Kneasy:
This is where I start getting disgruntled. This is the point where those
time loop horrors could raise their ugly heads. But let's ignore those.

The assumption is that DD  wants to win the war above all else. Maybe
the way to achieve that is all he knows. The fate of individuals is, after
all of secondary importance -and I include in that his own fate. He
knows there will be casualties, sad but true, there always are in these
things - in fact certain deaths may be necessary, just as James' and Lily's
were. What can he do - what dare he do about these? Nothing. He cannot
disrupt the plan with impunity.

Harry is obviously important, but his victory is not guaranteed by the
Prophecy. He has (will have) sufficient power to vanquish Voldy. That
is not the same as saying he *will* vanquish Voldy. Hmm. Ask me after
the next book is published - I might be able to make a more informed
guess then.

Alternatively:-
Mind you, that prophecy might already  have been fulfilled.
Vanquish is another word for defeat, not for destroy.
Think what happened at Godrics Hollow - Voldy defeated, Harry marked,
parents dead - "neither (James and Lily) can live while the other (Harry)
survives" - could be, could be. Wouldn't that annoy a lot of people?
Just look on it as my irritating thought for the day.

In which case, who the hell knows what's going to happen?
Fun, isn't it?




From capehoneysuckle at earthlink.net  Sat Mar  6 20:34:15 2004
From: capehoneysuckle at earthlink.net (capehoneysuckle)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 20:34:15 -0000
Subject: Weasleys' ages (still)
In-Reply-To: <c2d243+sd0e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2dck7+kchn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92346

Once more into the breach!
It seems that we all agree that JKR has difficulties with numbers here
and there. She has carefully thought out her plots, but numbers and
dates that are not important to the plot are a bit fuzzy in her mind.
That said, I think that the conflicting canon regarding the ages of
Bill and Charlie Weasley could be resolved by several bits being
close, but not exact. (Close enough, in JKR's mind)

Here are the relevant quotes:

1) Oliver Wood's speech before the first Quidditch game in POA,
"Gryffindor haven't won for seven years now." (Bloomsbury paperback
p.108). This would be in the fall of the 1993-94 school year, if we
use the lexicon's year of 1980 for Harry's birth. If Wood meant that
1993 was the seventh year since the last winning Gryffindor quidditch
team, they might have last won as late as the 1987-88 school year.

2) Fred, speaking to Harry after his appointment to the team in
PS/SS,"We haven't won since Charlie left, but this year's team is
going to be brilliant." (Bloomsbury pb p.114). This would be in the
fall of the 1991-92 school year. With the above assumption, Charlie's
last year was 1987-88.

3) Chat
Luisa: How old are Charlie and Bill Weasley in relation to their other
siblings?
JK Rowling replies -> Oh dear, maths. Let me think. Bill is two years
older than Charlie, who is two years older than Percy.

In order to try to make these three constraints fit together in a way
that would be "close enough" for JKR's math skills, let's make three
(fairly reasonable) assumptions:

1) Assume Charlie left Hogwarts after his OWLs. Arguments for this
assumption: Care of Magical Creatures (along with Muggle Studies) seem
like fields in which the OWL credential is adequate for most people
working in the field, as opposed to the more academic fields like
potions and transfiguration. Fred and George did it. We know that
Charlie was a prefect but not head boy. So, if his last year was
87-88, and he was a fifth year that year, Charlie's first year of
school was 1983-84.

2) Assume Charlie's birthday is just before the cutoff date for
school,  he was one of the youngest in his class, and was only ten
when he started school. Hermione was only ten, according to the JKR
approved timeline on the COS DVD. So, if he turned eleven in 1983, he
was born in 1972.

3) Assume Percy's birthday is just after the cutoff date for school,
and he turned twelve just after he started his first year at school.
Since he was a fifth year in 1991-92, he was a first year in 87-88. If
he turned twelve in 1987, he was born in 1975. Thus, Percy and Charlie
would be four years apart at school, although only just over three
years apart in age.

Charlie being three years older than Percy would seem to be close
enough for JKR's math, and would fit the rest of the restricting
canon. Not that I have anything against flints, especially related to
math problems, but I don't think positing a flint is absolutely
necessary to resolve this conflict.

Honey, hoping to make everybody happy





From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu  Sat Mar  6 20:36:44 2004
From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 20:36:44 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Harry and Hermione
In-Reply-To: <c2d2lc+fogv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2dcos+ovbo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92347

 "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> wrote:
(Snipped--wrote about H/Hr)
>  Unequal doesn't have to  mean exploitative. Their relationship is 
> obviously equally beneficial to both--but she has an influence 
> over him that he doesn't have over her.
-------

I think you must recall the power of Harry's grin.  <g>
Hogsmeade, PoA:  
Hermione bit her lip, looking extremely worried.
"Are you going to report me?" Harry asked her, grinning.
"Oh--of course not--but honestly, Harry--"


Arya <g>




From puju02 at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Mar  6 11:12:20 2004
From: puju02 at yahoo.co.uk (puju02)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 11:12:20 -0000
Subject: JKR chat--Snape the coward or the one left forever?
In-Reply-To: <c2bb5n+a40t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2cbmk+psdn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92348

justcarol wrote:
> > > > and the fansites getting the "one who won't return" correct--
> > > > IMO has to be Snape (as perceived by LV at the time of the 
> > > > graveyard scene) and the coward has to be Karkaroff.
>  
> Susan:
> > > Not necessarily, I don't think, Carol.  Why couldn't Snape be 
> > > the coward who would be punished?  

Puja:
I agree with Carol that the coward must be Karkaroff coz he fled when 
the scar burned and "one who has left forever" (Snape- coz we know he 
has redeemed himself to Dumbledore)
I am just wondering, if LV knows that Snape is the one who has left 
forever then what exactly is Snape doing for the Order? He could not 
be acting spy for Dumbledore coz that would be risking his life going 
near LV or any other death eaters. What do you think could be his 
work?






From puju02 at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Mar  6 11:22:53 2004
From: puju02 at yahoo.co.uk (puju02)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 11:22:53 -0000
Subject: The most satisfying answer in JKR's chat
In-Reply-To: <c2c4e6+8mvd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2ccad+6fcm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92349

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Molly Rahe" <molly at e...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Mhochberg at a... wrote:
> > For me, it was this:
> > 
> > "One of these days - once seven is finished - I'll revise all 
seven
> books. "
> > 
> > There were many interesting and exciting bits in the chat but that
> is my 
> > favorite. I can look forward, far ahead, to the "writer's cut" of
> the entire 
> > series. 
> > 
Puja:
Any amount of Harry would be insufficient, I feel- revised or not. I 
sincerely hope she writes a book eigth- an encyclopedia, as she once 
said in a chat- about the tiniest of details about the world of 
Hogwarts. I personally feel if the past circumstances of the 
charaters' lives are explained, that will by itself give depth as 
well as change in all characters (change in the way we see them). 
Maybe if we know more about Petunia's past, we might understand her 
silly natue than condemn it as being silly.
Just a thought...





From erinellii at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  6 21:18:34 2004
From: erinellii at yahoo.com (Erin)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 21:18:34 -0000
Subject: Harry's type of girl (SHIP)
In-Reply-To: <01989700-6F41-11D8-BC58-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu>
Message-ID: <c2df7b+b861@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92350

 Laura Ingalls Huntley wrote: 
> Well, technically, Harry has showed ZERO amount of interest in 
Ginny Weasley (or anyone else except Cho). 


Erin replies:

This statement, one which is probably articulated a few dozen times 
each week on this group, for some reason caught my eye today.  
Perhaps it was the "technically".

Because, technically speaking, it's just not true at all.  Harry has, 
by my count, shown interest in 3 members of the opposite sex.  And if 
you put all three of them together, it becomes clear that Harry has a 
preference for a certain physical type of female.

 I'm not a shipper.  I could care less if Harry ends up with Ginny or 
with, say, Draco.  If you put a gun to my head and asked me who ends 
up together, I'd blurt out Harry/Ginny and Ron/Hermione just because 
those seem to me the most canonically sound.  But I don't really care 
one way or the other, and it's no skin off my back if I'm wrong.  So 
please understand that I'm not attacking anyone, or trying to sink 
anyone's ship when I say the following.

Ginny is not Harry's type.  Nor is Hermione. Or even Luna.

(Harry actually *is* Ginny's type, but that's another post)

Let's look at the three Harry has had any sort of reaction to.  

1. First, of course, there's Cho.  I don't think I need to say too 
much about her.  But she's mostly described as a very pretty girl 
with long black hair.

2. And next we have Parvati Patil, whom Harry took to the Yule Ball.  
Yes, yes, I know that Harry only asked her because he couldn't get 
Cho, but even so, he made a deliberate choice in doing so.  Let's 
examine the scene where he asks her to the ball.

**************************************************
But Harry had just seen Parvati and Lavender come in through the 
portrait hole.  The time had come for drastic action.

"Wait here," he said to Ron, and he stood up, walked straight up to 
Parvati, and said, "Parvati?  Will you go to the ball with me?"

Parvati went into a fit of giggles.  Harry waited for them to 
subside, fingers crossed in the pocket of his robes.

"Yes, all right then," she said finally, blushing furiously.

"Thanks," said Harry, in relief. "Lavender- will you go with Ron?"

"She's going with Seamus," said Parvati, and the pair of them giggled 
harder that ever.
**************************************GoF, "The Unexpected Task"

Erin:
Notice that although Harry sees both Parvati and Lavender come into 
the common room, Parvati is the one Harry chooses to ask.  And how is 
Parvarti described?  Also as a pretty girl with long dark hair.

I can expound on the Harry/Parvati relationship if anyone is 
interested, but I have to get to my job soon, so let me just skip 
straight on to:

3.  Bellatrix Lestrange.  Although Harry currently hates her for 
killing Sirius, I think most people will conceed that his previous 
feelings were somewhat... conflicted.  Harry seemed almost fascinated 
with her, like a bird with a snake.

And, (surprise, surprise!) Bella is *also* described as having long 
dark hair.  

I think we can safely conclude that Harry is attracted to women with 
long black hair.  Padma Patil, anyone?


Erin





From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Sat Mar  6 21:23:14 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 21:23:14 -0000
Subject: JKR chat--Snape the coward or the one left forever?
In-Reply-To: <c2cbmk+psdn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2dfg2+7t9c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92351

Carol:
> > > and the fansites getting the "one who won't return" 
> > > correct--IMO has to be Snape (as perceived by LV at the 
> > > time of the graveyard scene) and the coward has to be 
> > > Karkaroff.

Susan:
> > Not necessarily, I don't think, Carol.  Why couldn't Snape 
> > be the coward who would be punished?  


> Puja:
> I agree with Carol that the coward must be Karkaroff coz he fled 
> when the scar burned and "one who has left forever" (Snape- coz we 
> know he has redeemed himself to Dumbledore)

> I am just wondering, if LV knows that Snape is the one who has 
> left forever then what exactly is Snape doing for the Order? He 
> could not be acting spy for Dumbledore coz that would be risking 
> his life going near LV or any other death eaters. What do you 
> think could be his work?

Susan:
LOL, Puja.  Your questions here at the end are part of the reason I 
suggested Snape's being the coward & not the one who'd left 
forever. :-)  Snape tells Harry during occlumency lessons that it is 
his job to find out what Voldy's up to.  I took that to mean he is a 
spy for the Order. And the only ways I could see that Snape would be 
in a position to spy are:

1) he's a vampire [not!!];
2) he somehow managed to get to the graveyard that night and so was 
none of the three Voldy mentioned [unlikely, in my eyes];
3) he was the coward who DID take his punishment and was allowed 
back in the fold;

The only other possibility I can imagine would be that he was indeed 
the one Voldy believed was gone forever & who'd have to be killed... 
but that *somehow* [how?!?] he was given the chance to talk his way 
out of it.

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Sat Mar  6 21:51:48 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 21:51:48 -0000
Subject: Shake-up at the Ministry
In-Reply-To: <c2be9r+omag@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2dh5k+nbg7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92352

 
tj Wrote:
I think that Arthur did get zapped by the Imperius curse for 2 
reasons.
 
1~  In GOF, in DADA class when Couch Jr. is showing the unforgiviable
curses, He did it in a very specific order.
       a~  Neville  crutious curse (the one that drove his parents out
           of their minds.)
 
       b~  Harry Avada Kadara (sp?) the curse that killed his parents
 
       c~   Ron imperius curse.. and he couldn't fight it very well at
  all.  He was still skipping every 3rd step, even when he
>             got out of class.  When everyone else was okay.
> 
> 2~  In COS when Harry got lost in the floo network, and came out in
> Knockturn alley.  Harry saw the Malfoys.  He told Ron and Arthur 
heard
> Harry.  He said oh I can't wait to get Malfoy (or something to that
> effect) and Molly says "Don't bite off more than you can chew".  And
> Arthur is insulted by what his wife has said.
> 
> 
> This says to me that Molly knows something we don't know.  And it
> involves Malfoy and AW.  
> 
> I think that Arthur is a strong person (you have to be to live with 
7
> children and a bossy wife).  
> 
> I like Arthur, and I will like him just as much if not more if he 
has
> had to suffer under the Imperius Curse; as well as, 7 rowdy children
> and a small bossy wife who can look like a saber tooth tiger when 
she
> is angry (or scared).

Here's my take on the reasons:  Ron is Ron and there is no reason to 
think his father would have the same response to Imperius.  
Especially considering he is an adult and fully trained.  We really 
have no idea what Arthur's particular talents (or shortcomings for 
that matter) are.

As far as biting off more than he can chew with Lucius Malfoy, 
Arthur's job at the ministry is tenuous.  We can only assume the 
reasons.  My belief is that this also has something to do with Lucius 
Malfoy.  What Lovely Lucius wants, he gets.  Especially with Fudge.  
It seems just as likely that LM is afraid of Arthur (to me) and 
therefore makes sure he is kept very far away from Fudge so that 
Malfoy's "dealings" with the MOM are not public knowledge. Remember, 
Malfoy harbors just as much apparent resentment against Arthur as the 
other way around.  If he really saw him as someone he could control 
at will, why care what he does? There is certainly no reason to get 
into a physical fight with someone who you consider weak.

The comment "...and I thought your family could sink no lower." (CoS 
US paperback, pg.62) has always bothered me.  Why?  This certainly 
has nothing to do with imperious.  It seems to go back farther than 
that IMHO.

If Arthur is aware of Fudge's shortcomings (as Molly said in GOF: "We 
know who Fudge is..."), he is close to DD, and possibly powerful 
enough to make an old DE nervous, then assuming some back history 
between Arthur and Lucius (that does not include Imperious), you have 
a reason for both men to hate the other.

As far as family leadership is concerned, when things got serious 
with Percy, it was Arthur who went to battle, not Molly.

I would like for *someone* other than DD and Harry to be strong 
enough to fight and win against Lucius Malfoy and the Imperious 
curse.  Arthur has my vote, still waters run deep.

Sue, who appologizes for the length of the post.




From lhuntley at fandm.edu  Sat Mar  6 21:59:13 2004
From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 16:59:13 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Harry and Hermione
In-Reply-To: <1242164551.20040306004524@msn.com>
Message-ID: <80F163B5-6FB9-11D8-BC58-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 92353

Laura (me):
>> Because it leaves Hermione browbeating Ron until he just ignores
>> her.  Molly basically treats Arthur like a seventh son.

Susanne:
> Actually, this sounds exactly like the way Hermione and
> *Harry* interact, already.
>
> Hermione nags, or suggests how Harry should act in any given
> situation (yes, she wants to help, but it often comes across
> like a mother-child relationship), and Harry chooses to ignore her
> just as often as he listens to her.

I knew someone would bring this up (because someone always does ^_~), 
and I'm afraid that we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

Personally, I see Harry and Hermione's relationship in an *entirely* 
different light.  In my opinion, he very rarely just *ignores* her.  
Even when she was trying to get him not to break into Umbridge's office 
in OotP (during which she got so repetitive and insistent that even *I* 
was annoyed with her), he never just tuned her out.  Rather, he 
realized that she had a valid point, but chose to go against her advice 
anyway.  In fact, the entire day he was mostly on the fence about 
whether he would go ahead and do it, which is why I think that Hermione 
didn't just give up the first (hundred) times she tried to convince him 
not to do it -- she could tell he was still deciding.

The question isn't whether Hermione is bossy toward Harry and/or Ron.  
Hermione *is* bossy, period.  I just happen to feel that Harry values 
her opinions and advice (heck, his conscience has developed into her 
voice!), whereas they just roll like water off Ron's back.  Sure, Ron 
is more likely to *argue* with Hermione over stupid little things, but 
Harry's the one who can actually shut her up when she needs to be 
(oftentimes with just a look).

Furthermore, there is just a . . . different quality to her 
interactions with Harry.  It's not that she doesn't *care* what Ron 
thinks, but she doesn't value or respect his ideas.  Harry, on the 
other hand . . . I, at least, definitely get the impression that she 
cares deeply about and has respect for his feelings and ideas.

Aside from all this, how often is she gentle with Ron?  Does she ever 
*really* put his needs before hers in any meaningful way?  Has she ever 
actually conceded *anything* to him?  Does she support him the way she 
does Harry?  I know that I certainly see R/H and H/H interactions 
through biased eyes, but I just don't think Hermione *respects* Ron 
very much.  They're good friends, yes, of course.  But I don't think 
their bond really goes any deeper than that.

Laura




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Sat Mar  6 22:17:22 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 22:17:22 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Harry and Hermione
In-Reply-To: <80F163B5-6FB9-11D8-BC58-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu>
Message-ID: <c2dili+4s3b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92354

Laura:
> I just happen to feel that Harry values her opinions and advice 
> (heck, his conscience has developed into her voice!), whereas they 
> just roll like water off Ron's back.  

Susan:
I generally try to stay out of the SHIP discussions here, because I 
have pretty strong preferences and *for me* it's not worth fighting 
over.  

Anyway, your point about Hermione as Harry's conscience [aka 
superego] is precisely the point Pippin made in post #92329 as 
reason H&H are NOT good for one another.  I think Pippin has an 
excellent point, that it's *not* especially healthy in a 
relationship to have one party act "as" the conscience of the 
other.  

Siriusly Snapey Susan







From belijako at online.no  Sat Mar  6 22:18:10 2004
From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 22:18:10 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Harry and Hermione
In-Reply-To: <b7.3d5e8ea7.2d7b039f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <c2din2+jpb1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92355

DJ wrote:
It's probably very unfair of me, but anytime I thought of her 
character, I thought of her crying. I definitely didn't think she was 
strong enough for Harry.
 
I also agree with you about her OOTP development as being 
unconvincing... One line in COS about Ginny talking a lot when Harry 
is not around, does not provide sufficient foundation for the sudden 
appearance of this hex-throwing, great Quidditch-playing, boyfriend-
changing, sharp-tongued girl.  Though I completely agree, I 
think the books are probably heading in a H/G direction.

Berit replies:

When reading the HP books (and I have, several times over), I've 
never found Ginny's rapid development i OoP "unconvincing". After 
all, most of the HP story is written from Harry's point of view, and 
until OoP the only thing he saw of Ginny was a blushing, very shy 
girl. He hardly inter-acted with her (or her Hogwarts peers) at all. 
How could he possibly have seen the "real" Ginny behind her crush? I 
totally believe Ron when he says "You don't know how weird it is for 
her to be this shy, she never shuts up normally-" (CoS p. 35). Ron is 
not lying. It's the "childish" crush and nothing else that gives 
Harry the somewhat limited experience of who Ginny is. When Harry is 
not around, canon suggests she is herself; not unlike her mischievous 
brothers Fred and George!! This is very much supported with the 
little bits of information we get about Ginny in OoP: That she 
secretly has been "borrowing" Fred and George's brooms for many 
years, making them *mildly impressed* when they hear of it! Fred and 
George are also impressed by, and have learned to respect Ginny's 
powers and skills when it comes to hexes. Ginny, not strong enough 
for Harry? Just look at how she won't let herself be bullied around 
by anyone in OoP, not even her former "hero"! She sets Harry right at 
least twice as I can recall.

And Hermione gives Harry a very plausible explanation as to why Ginny 
has stopped blushing and being tongue-tied whenever Harry is present: 
She has left her childhood crush behind; she finally realised Harry 
didn't care for her romantically and made a conscious decision 
to "move on" with her life. Now she's finally able to relate to him 
like a friend, an equal. And Harry finally has the chance to get to 
know the real Ginny...

Ginny's development believable? Certainly. Because she's been 
*developing* all the time, Harry just didn't "see" her for what she 
is till OoP. Ginny has always been a toughie, that's canon :-) As for 
the crying in CoS: Well, what would a believable reaction be if 
crying isn't; when you're being possessed by an evil entity but don't 
know; but have a suspicion something's terribly wrong; people are 
being petrified all around you, and you "wake" up with blood on your 
hands... I don't find "crying" in such circumstances a sign 
of "weakness"; anybody would be scared! AND, Ginny's just an eleven 
year old girl in CoS... Does a few tears and a little worrying as an 
eleven year old make her unfit for a romantic relationship with Harry 
at fifteen or sixteen?

I thoroughly like Ginny, she's developing into an awesome girl. "Ron 
with boobs"; that might be true, but it doesn't make her any less 
interesting for Harry; in my eyes :-) And I agree with you; that the 
HP books are heading in a H/G direction. I don't deny it: I'm happy 
about that :-) 

Berit J
http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html




From lhuntley at fandm.edu  Sat Mar  6 22:23:55 2004
From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 17:23:55 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR Chat  "The Crucial and Central Question"
In-Reply-To: <c2ctra+nle1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <F44B1222-6FBC-11D8-BC58-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 92356

Kneasy:
> Blaming Dumbledore? Really? Just because I consider him to be a
> cunning, devious, conniving, cold-hearted fixer doesn't mean that
> I blame him. Quite the contrary. Wars aren't won by kindly old softies.
> <SNIP>
> In the past I've leveled all sorts of 'accusations' at him; that he 
> stood
> aside at GH, more or less abandoning James and Lily so that the terms
> of the Prophecy would be fulfilled being among them. But I don't
> *blame* him for doing so. It was a necessary step in the formation of
> Weapon!Harry.
<SNIP>
> It's the right thing to do and
> IMO it has been wholly deliberate, one of the more visible facets of
> his plan, whatever that is. But this being the case I  can't logically
> agree with the idea that Harry has choices springing up around him
> and that his actions are of his own volition. He doesn't and they 
> aren't,
> otherwise I'm contradicting myself.
> And DD will sacrifice Harry if it becomes necessary - which is more
> important, Harry or the WW? No problem with that answer. DD has
> been fighting Voldy since before Harry was born, he knows the struggle
> is about much more than Harry (though I sometimes have doubts about
> whether some of the fans do).
<SNIP
> And no, I don't think he's *arranged* the ending, but I wouldn't be
> surprised if he doesn't already *know* the ending, or perhaps the
> optimal way to achieve it. But to get there he has to make certain the
> right pieces are more or less in the right places and that's what he's
> up to. Harry is one the pieces and he has to be in the right position
> before he can be effective, whether he wants it or not.

I've tried to boil down your argument to its key points, as I am only 
going to be replying in a very general way.

I've always been one of those people who scoffed or rolled her eyes 
when others proposed ESE!Dumbledore or even just 
PuppetMaster!Dumbledore.  However, more and more (especially since 
OotP), I find that I'm agreeing more and more with the theory that 
Dumbledore is working quite methodically towards a goal -- and the 
means to achieve that goal are probably not in Harry's best interest.

I should have seen it from the beginning, really.  I mean, his reasons 
for leaving Harry with the emotionally (and even physically, to an 
extent) abusive Dursleys are just *so* weak.  He doesn't want the boy 
to get a big head?  Privet Drive is the *only* place Harry will be 
safe?  Please.  Dumbledore could have solved *both* these problems by 
raising Harry himself.  I'm sorry, but it's the least he could have 
done for a child that was destined to save the Wizarding World, if he 
had *truly* had that child's best interests at heart.

As for Sirius's death in OotP -- I don't think Dumbledore specifically 
orchestrated it, but I don't think he's particularly sorry it happened, 
either.  What better way to teach Harry the lessons he needs to learn?

Dumbledore *is* moulding Harry into a weapon with which to destroy 
Voldemort.  Can you blame him?  No.  One can hardly argue that Harry's 
happiness and life are more important than the entire Wizarding 
population.  And he *is* sorry -- he *does* care for Harry -- I believe 
he was being sincere when he "explained everything" at the end of OotP. 
  In this case he has chosen between what he thinks is right, and what 
would be easy.

However, I also think he is playing a v. dangerous game.  What happens 
when Harry realizes all this?  To paraphrase Hermione, who can he trust 
if he can't trust Dumbledore?  Can you imagine how betrayed, confused, 
and ANGRY Harry will feel when Dumbledore's manipulation of his life 
becomes apparent to him?  If he finds out that Dumbledore *let* his 
parents and Sirius die?

Personally, I think Dumbledore is in for a big surprise when it comes 
to Harry -- eventually the kid is going to grow up and refuse to be 
used anymore.  And then . . . what happens?  Can Harry defeat Voldemort 
on his own terms, or will he be forced to put differences aside and 
accept Dumbledore's game plan?

Laura




From BrwNeil at aol.com  Sat Mar  6 22:24:52 2004
From: BrwNeil at aol.com (BrwNeil at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 17:24:52 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's type of girl (SHIP)
Message-ID: <1a0.215d887d.2d7ba9b4@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92357

In a message dated 3/6/2004 5:06:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
erinellii at yahoo.com writes:
I think we can safely conclude that Harry is attracted to women with 
long black hair.  Padma Patil, anyone?


Erin

And all these relationship with long dark haired women have been disastrous.  
This might lead us to think that Harry has been looking at women based only 
on their physical attributes.  Perhaps he should be more concerned with the 
inner being.

Harry has been drawn to attractive girls, yet Hermione is discribed in canon 
as plain.  Interesting.



 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Meliss9900 at aol.com  Sat Mar  6 22:43:47 2004
From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 17:43:47 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's type of girl (SHIP)
Message-ID: <1d3.1b6fd464.2d7bae23@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92358

In a message dated 03/06/2004 4:06:51 PM Central Standard Time, 
erinellii at yahoo.com writes:


> I think we can safely conclude that Harry is attracted to women with 
> long black hair.  Padma Patil, anyone?
> 
> 
> Erin
> 

Well all we really have to base Harry's type on is the one girl that we know 
that Harry was drawn to physically: Cho Chang.  She's pretty, petite, she has 
dark hair, eyes and she's smart. 

Hermione is petite, has dark hair and eyes, pretty (Harry's reaction in  GOF) 
and smart  

It isn't until OOTP that Harry (and the readers) learn anything about Cho's 
personality.  A personality that Harry apparently finds a bit  wanting (let's 
face it the girl is jealous and needy).  OTOH Harry obviously has no problems 
with Hermione's personality or they wouldn't still be friends.

Mel




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Sat Mar  6 22:44:19 2004
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 22:44:19 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Harry and Hermione
In-Reply-To: <80F163B5-6FB9-11D8-BC58-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu>
Message-ID: <c2dk83+ih36@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92359

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Laura Ingalls Huntley <lhuntley at f...> wrote:
> Laura (me):
> 
> Personally, I see Harry and Hermione's relationship in an *entirely* 
> different light.  In my opinion, he very rarely just *ignores* her.  
> Even when she was trying to get him not to break into Umbridge's office 
> in OotP (during which she got so repetitive and insistent that even *I* 
> was annoyed with her), he never just tuned her out.  Rather, he 
> realized that she had a valid point, but chose to go against her advice 
> anyway.  In fact, the entire day he was mostly on the fence about 
> whether he would go ahead and do it, which is why I think that Hermione 
> didn't just give up the first (hundred) times she tried to convince him 
> not to do it -- she could tell he was still deciding.


I have to agree with Pippin and the others on this point. Looking at the way Harry and Ron 
react to Hermione's nagging (and you must agree that she sometimes does nag), Ron is by far 
healthier in the way he deals with her. Harry very rarely argues with her - I mean carry a 
long, insistent argument, not just state his disagreement. I have always had the sense that 
at such times, he retreats from her (internally, I mean). Ron, on the other hand, *will* 
carry an argument with her, insisting on his own opinion. It's a *good* thing, you know. It 
means that he continues to interact with her, and when a person is being bossy and annoying, 
you have to either argue with them or ignore them. Bickering is better than no 
communication, IMO. Because Hermione is both opininated and caring, she will sometimes be a 
nag. A man who will remain there (emotionally) and relate to her in a genuine way, 
including firmly disagreeing with her, is the mate she needs. Someone she can be her own 
forceful self with, not have to tone herself down. Ron is just perfect for her!

> 
<snip> 
> Furthermore, there is just a . . . different quality to her 
> interactions with Harry.  It's not that she doesn't *care* what Ron 
> thinks, but she doesn't value or respect his ideas.  Harry, on the 
> other hand . . . I, at least, definitely get the impression that she 
> cares deeply about and has respect for his feelings and ideas.
> 
> Aside from all this, how often is she gentle with Ron?  Does she ever 
> *really* put his needs before hers in any meaningful way?  Has she ever 
> actually conceded *anything* to him?  Does she support him the way she 
> does Harry?  I know that I certainly see R/H and H/H interactions 
> through biased eyes, but I just don't think Hermione *respects* Ron 
> very much.  They're good friends, yes, of course.  But I don't think 
> their bond really goes any deeper than that.
> 

Of course we see her being more concerned about Harry - he's the one whose constantly in 
mortal danger. Ron never needed her the way Harry needed his friends in his various 
exploits. 

I think I agree with you that at the moment Hermione respects Harry more than she does Ron. 
Her surprise that Ron is chosen as prefect shows this clearly. But attraction is a strange 
thing, sometimes. We all know that to admire somebody, even deeply like them, doesn't 
guarantee attraction. Young as they are, if JKR intends an H/H, she's leaving it awfully 
late in the story to generate romantic heat between them. Whereas, at least from Ron's side, 
there is quite a lot of that already, established at least since GoF. 


Naama







From siskiou at msn.com  Sat Mar  6 23:07:09 2004
From: siskiou at msn.com (Susanne)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 15:07:09 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Harry and Hermione
In-Reply-To: <80F163B5-6FB9-11D8-BC58-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu>
References: <1242164551.20040306004524@msn.com>
 <80F163B5-6FB9-11D8-BC58-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu>
Message-ID: <241679645.20040306150709@msn.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92360



Hi,

Saturday, March 6, 2004, 1:59:13 PM, Laura wrote:

> I just happen to feel that Harry values 
> her opinions and advice (heck, his conscience has developed into her
> voice!), whereas they just roll like water off Ron's back.

The problem here is, that we know what Harry thinks, but we
aren't inside Ron's head to find out if Hermione's opinions
and advice "just roll off his back".

Harry is the POV character, close to 100% of the time, so
any relationships he has, are going to appear a lot deeper.

Readers often mention how they see Ron and Hermione's friendship
as lesser, but if we had insights into their thoughts, and the
times they spend together when Harry is not with them, it
might appear much different.

-- 
Best regards,
 Susanne                           mailto:siskiou at msn.com

Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/





From vecseytj at tampabay.rr.com  Sat Mar  6 23:10:44 2004
From: vecseytj at tampabay.rr.com (vecseytj)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 23:10:44 -0000
Subject: Disliked Uncle Vernon
In-Reply-To: <20040306052340.A6EA72D2239@front.interia.pl>
Message-ID: <c2dlpk+csme@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92361

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, bufo_viridis at i... wrote:
> > Tj:
> >  He has locked him up, STARVED him...
> 
> Not exactly, I'm afraid it's a bit of fanon contamination. The quote
goes:
> "The Dursleys had never exactly starved Harry, but he'd never been
allowed to eat as much as he liked." PS, during feast

Tj here:  I must disagree.  When someone is fed once a day, a cold tin
of soup (that he must share with his pet), and locked in his room only
allowed out 2 times a day on bathroom breaks, When his only thought is
that "He is more hungery NOW then before he had a mouth full of soup.
IS starvation (slow and painful... death, 'cause ya can't live on
that... tissue breaks down and you get sick and you die.) I know of
FEWER prisons with stricker lock down rules.

And it is not movie contanimation... I just re-read the book.

Sorry if I sound snippy.. but gosh jail would be too good for someone
like Vernon if you read about him in your Daily Newspaper.




From mad_maxime at hotmail.com  Sat Mar  6 21:13:50 2004
From: mad_maxime at hotmail.com (mad_maxime)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 21:13:50 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Harry and Hermione
In-Reply-To: <1e4.1a9e8023.2d7b0afc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <c2deue+ndgl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92362

DJ wrote:
> <snip>
> . . . I do know that when I was reading OOTP that there were a 
> few points where I wondered if she [Ginny] still had some residual
> effects from her time when Tom Riddle and she were basically sharing 
> a life-force.  The one example that springs to mind is something 
> very little, but it stuck with me for some reason.  It was when they 
> were all at Grimmauld Place around the time the kids were trying to 
> listen in on the Order meeting, and JKR describes Ginny as 
> either "cooly lying" to her mother, or "lying without batting an 
> eye" ... <snip> I'm not trying to say that JKR is trying to say that 
> Ginny is a "born liar" either.  She may just be showing Ginny to
> have the capability to be cool and calm.  But then 
> again, she didn't need to show Ginny lying to show that. I don't 
> know what it all means, but I do think Ginny's final 
> characterization may still be up for grabs.

My response:

The question of what residual effects remain within Ginny after being
possessed by Tom is a very interesting one that I hope JKR addresses
in Books 6 or 7. I don't think her ability to maintain a good poker
face while lying to her mother is an example of this though. I believe
JKR was just trying to show that Ginny has a bit of Fred/George in
her. She's not "evil", she's just being a bit irreverent toward an
authority figure. Nothing out of the ordinary for a young teenager.

Max (who thinks Ginny is swell :) ) 






From jojobinks1983 at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Mar  6 22:37:53 2004
From: jojobinks1983 at yahoo.co.uk (jojobinks1983)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 22:37:53 -0000
Subject: Snape as the faithful servant
Message-ID: <c2djs1+9bc9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92363

Hi, just thought I'd complicate matters a little. Why does Crouch Junior!
Moody have to be the "faithful servant" (I haven't seen this one on 
the board, I don't think). It is highly likely that he 
is but there is wiggling room, and if it were Snape then the rest of 
the mysteries could be solved- his relationship with Malfoy, his 
absence at the graveyard, even his little run in with Quirrell in 
P/S. We know he's an occlumens so there is a real possibility that he 
could hoodwink Voldie. Also I've been thinking about other 
possibilities for the mystery trio of absent death eaters:

1. Coward: Karkaroff (obviously), Bagman (possibly-he did run away as 
well)
2. "one who has left forever": Crouch Junior (he was sort of "killed"), 
Karkaroff again...
3. Faithful Servant: Snape, Crouch Junior, Karkaroff (did Voldie know 
that he'd done a runner?), the portrait under Dumbledore's bed...

I happily await a barrage of outraged backhanders,

Jo, who really loves the idea that Snape is a deliciously evil double 
agent just waiting to be rescued by his own conscience.





From armadillof at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  6 22:47:45 2004
From: armadillof at yahoo.com (armadillof)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 22:47:45 -0000
Subject: snape left forever...and a musing
Message-ID: <c2dkeh+nlql@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92364

In reference to a post made, so what if Snape is risking his life?  
It's certainly been risked before hasn't it?  IMO Snape is more 
brave than we make him out to be.  

AF

(and in reference to the born evil question....I agree it would be a 
bit interesting if Tom Riddle's mother who was a witch had a similar 
charm/spell/whatever put on Tom when he was born....she did die 
giving him life as well....)





From armadillof at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  6 22:49:52 2004
From: armadillof at yahoo.com (armadillof)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 22:49:52 -0000
Subject: Harry and the Eodipus complex
Message-ID: <c2dkig+58mb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92365

Can't you tell he's going to end up with Ginny since she has the 
long red hair like his mother???

lol

AF





From MadameSSnape at aol.com  Sun Mar  7 00:28:48 2004
From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 19:28:48 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape as the faithful servant
Message-ID: <117.2fdc1c78.2d7bc6c0@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92366

In a message dated 3/6/2004 7:16:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
jojobinks1983 at yahoo.co.uk writes:
Hi, just thought I'd complicate matters a little. Why does Crouch Junior!
Moody have to be the "faithful servant" (I haven't seen this one on 
the board, I don't think).
==============
Sherrie here:

Voldemort specifically states, IIRC, that the "faithful servant at Hogwarts" 
is the one who arranged for Harry to be present at the graveyard get-together. 
 Later, Batty Baby Barty makes it clear that it was he who made those 
arrangements - turning the Cup into a portkey programmed to take Harry to Little 
Hangleton.  IMHO, this identifies Barty as the "faithful servant".

Sherrie


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Sun Mar  7 00:29:41 2004
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 00:29:41 -0000
Subject: Harry and the Eodipus complex
In-Reply-To: <c2dkig+58mb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2dqdl+kdfe@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92367

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "armadillof" <armadillof at y...>
wrote:
> Can't you tell he's going to end up with Ginny since she has the 
> long red hair like his mother???
> 
> lol
> 
> AF


bboy_mn:

Not sure how serious you are with that comment, but it does have some
appeal.
 
If Harry does marry Ginny then the whole Weasley family truly does
become his real family. That would be a gift greater than any wedding
gift anyone could give him. Love and family, the greates gift of all.

I think it is clear that the books are most strongly hinting at a
relationship between Ron and Hermione. Hints related to Harry and
Ginny are much more subtle, BUT it is only in the most current book
that real relationships and dating are starting to enter the picture.
Remember, when Harry and Ginny met, he was 11 and she was 10. She was
infatuated and he was oblivious. 

It's is CRYSTAL clear from book four (GoF) that neither Harry or Ron
are quite ready for dating yet. So that fact that Harry hasn't shown
any 'deeper' attraction to Ginny doesn't mean much. Now however, from
book 5 on, Harry will see Ginny in a whole new light. She is no longer
JUST Ron's little sister hiding in the shadows but a person in her own
right. A person who is strong, independant, understanding, confident,
and very attractive. 

Now that we see the real Ginny, and now that Harry actually has some
interest and experience (bad as it was) in dating, I think the
potential is there for sparks to fly. Although, I don't expect any
real connection between them to show itself until near the end of the
last book.

I think the somewhat obvious Ron/Hermione and the slightly
foreshadowed Harry/Ginny are the most likely relationship to be there
at the end of the series.

Just a few thoughts.

bboy_mn





From cmbrichards at aol.com  Sat Mar  6 22:24:32 2004
From: cmbrichards at aol.com (cmbrichards)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 22:24:32 -0000
Subject: A theory I am sharing
Message-ID: <c2dj30+iadi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92368

ok, I am really putting my self out here on this list, because this 
is my baby theory, and I know yall are about to rip it to shreds.
Those of you who join the chats on Sunday have already heard me say 
something about this, but since I posted this on mugglenet, I want 
this groups opinins as well<seeing how this is the place I call home 
8) >. Instead of re-typing this , I am just copying and pasting from 
the mugglenet post.
This has to do with the comment J.K. made about being Harry's 
shortest summer at Private Drive during her WD chat session.

For some time now, I have had a theory forming on this, having to do 
with the Dursley's, and J.K.'s comment on Harry's shortest summer 
makes me wonder now. Now don't beat me all to smithereens here, I am 
sharing a theory with you all, it doesn't make it right, just what I 
think might happen. This theory formed while following the thread for 
the basilisk returning. 

What we know: 
J.K. has said in chats: 
1.Dudley's privileged existence starts to change for the worse in 
book 4.<Barnes and Nobles interview March 1999> 
2.<Giving the entire question and answer here so you can get the gist 
of this> 
Q: Will there be, or have there been, any "late blooming" students in 
the school who come into their magic potential as adults, rather than 
as children? By the way, I loved meeting you, and hearing you speak, 
when you came to Anderson's in Naperville. I can hardly wait until 
you tour again. 
A: Ahhh! I loved the event at Anderson's. It was one of my favorites. 
That is completely true. No, is the answer. In my books, magic almost 
always shows itself before age 11; however, there is a character who 
does manage in desperate circumstances to do magic quite late in 
life; but that is very rare in the world I am writing about. 

The second one is what got me really thinking about this. 
Voldemort has tried repeatedly to attack Harry, and get rid of him 
for that matter, but it has been to no avail. His mother's lingering 
protection<Voldemort overcomes part of this in GOF> and protections 
placed upon him by Dumbledore over the Dursley home have always 
protected him to some extent away from DD's presence. Now we learn 
that Voldemort is fully aware of Harry's protection at Private Drive, 
and one would assume that he knows it is Petunia's blood that is 
protecting him. I have often wondered why in the past, Voldemort 
didn't attempt this, and chalked it up to he had to regain his 
physical form to do it, but it makes sense to me, that eliminate 
Petunia and Dudley from the equation, and Harry has no blood ties 
from Lily to protect him. 
Book 5 focuses on Voldemort trying to gain the prophecy down in the 
department. Why not go after Trelawney too? This is because she is at 
the school with Dumbledore. But then Umbridge goes to kick her out... 
Dumbledore steps in and says she may not teach there anymore, but 
Hogwarts will still be her home.<calling a place home ring a bell? 
>He is protecting Trelawney from Voldie here I am sure of it! 
Voldemort knows this too, I am sure. The one who gave the prophecy 
just conveniently happens to be up at the school with Dumbledore. 
But Harry still has a weak spot. Number 4 Private drive. This magic 
only works if Harry can call it home, and Petunia is there in this 
home. 
I believe in Book 6 or 7, Voldemort is going to make a play for 
Petunia. She is, as they say, the weakest link. Now, we know that 
Dobby got into Private Drive, and that the advanced guard and the 
Weasley's got in as well. One is a magical creature, and the groups 
are coming from DD<who cast the spell> to get Harry. I believe this 
to be why Harry has never been left at home alone before. Petunia had 
to have known Mrs.Figg was in contact with 
DD, and could protect him there<this is where they always left him if 
they wanted to go somewhere without him>.Otherwise, he is always 
around Petunia while at home. 
So far only Dobby and some owls have managed to get into the house 
without DD's knowledge. Leaves open this spot for magical creatures 
don't it? What if the spell only applies to witches and wizards? 
Now, taking that into account, it would make sense to me that 
Voldemort might try and send a deadly creature after the Dursley's. 
If it gets them, so be it, problem solved. If it doesn't, we have 
already seen that attacks on Dudley provoked Uncle Vernon to tell 
Harry to get out. 
An attack on all the Dursley's would more than likely make Vernon 
override Petunia, and send Harry away for good, for fear of his wife 
and son's life. I think this is where the "late in lifer" will 
perform some magic. In order to save some lives here at Number 4. We 
have two known muggles<or so we assume>, and a squib<Mrs.Figg> in the 
area. There is a greater chance of one of three showing some magic 
here, then Filch having to do something at the school. Now, this is 
just a thought, and I don't think it to be what will happen, but WHAT 
IF it is Uncle Vernon himself who performs this magic? 
ewww...shudder...<We have dubbed this theory of it being Uncle 
Vernon, the VERNONMORT theory>. I don't know for sure which one of 
them I would lay the odds on, but it struck me as odd when Harry's 
thoughts "fluttered" through the window in OotP, that is was Uncle 
Vernon who picked up on them. Harry forcibly tries to throw his 
thoughts on to Dudley and gang, and that is to no avail. The only 
time he has been shown to be able to pass his thoughts have been with 
animals<the snake in the zoo>, and with other magically inclined 
people<classmates and Snape,DD, and Voldemort.> 

OK, long winded post I know, but tell me what yall think.....





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sun Mar  7 00:40:32 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 00:40:32 -0000
Subject: Ron, Hermione and the Elves was Re: SHIP: Harry and Hermione
In-Reply-To: <24.50903270.2d7b7afa@aol.com>
Message-ID: <c2dr20+8k2d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92369

Other people have responded to the shipping section of Neil's 
post...but this bit intrigued me.

Neil said:
 >>They have two different mind sets. Ron 
envies rich families with elves, Hermione wants them free. <<

Ron seems to be much more interested than House Elf 
liberation than Harry does. At least he's willing to discuss it. I 
don't see Ron envying rich families per se. What do you base 
that on? 

We don't hear Ron complaining  so much about not having 
money in OOP.  Maybe that's because having  seen how 
the other half lives, at Grimmauld Place, he's realized that wealth 
isn't all he thought it was. He has decent dress robes and a 
respectable broom now, which seems to be all that  he wanted, 
really

 He says in CoS that his mother wishes she had a House Elf to 
do the ironing, but I can't find anywhere in canon that he, or Molly 
for that matter, would be averse to paying the Elf. His point of 
contention with Hermione is solely that the House Elves are 
happy not to work for pay, and are unhappy if freed against their 
will. She's been trying for two books now to convince him  that 
they would get used to freedom if they had it. Muggle thinking, of 
course.  The House Elves are *magically* enslaved, as 
Dumbledore tells us. Once Hermione gets her mind around that 
fact, maybe she'll be able to accomplish something.

 Fred, in GoF,  advises Hermione not to go upsetting the Elves 
because it will put them off their cooking. Ron predicts later that 
they will send substandard food to the Gryffindor table if they are 
insulted.  It sounds like they're just being  pigs, but we learn in 
OOP that Elves can and do refuse to work if they're offended. 
Does that sound like slavery as we know it?

Pippin





From mongo62aa at yahoo.ca  Sun Mar  7 00:41:00 2004
From: mongo62aa at yahoo.ca (mongo62aa)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 00:41:00 -0000
Subject: The Fans v JK Rowling
In-Reply-To: <c2d243+sd0e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2dr2t+caq1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92370

nkafkafi wrote:

{BTW: just gleefully adding my part to the confusion around 
Hermione's age, I'll note that biologically she is actually several 
months older than she is supposed to be, because of her use of the 
time-turner to get into all those classes in PoA. The math (oh 
dear...) goes like this: Hermione goes to the Charms class from 
11:00 to 12:00, then she jumps back in time one hour and goes to the 
Ancient Runes class from 11:00 to 12:00. While for the outside world 
only one hour had passed, for Hermione it was two hours. I'm sure 
JKR was aware of this since she described how hungry was Hermione at 
lunch. For her mealtime is long past due. So by how much was 
Hermione aged during that year? If we assume that for about 9 
months, she was repeating a third of each 24 hrs day (normal 
teaching hours), then she added a third of those 9 months, or 
additional 3 months. This means that at her 15th birthday (whenever 
it was!) she was biologically 15 years and 3 months old...}

Me:

I really doubt that she was repeating 8 hours a day, seven days a 
week.  She was taking 3 extra subjects for half a year, then 2 extra 
subjects after she quit Divination.  We know that she can handle one 
extra subject without using the time-turner, since she keeps it 
after her third year.  She is evidently using the time-turner ONLY 
for repeating the classroom time, since she is increasingly tired 
and irritable through the year, from lack of sleep.  The 'optional' 
classes seem to be one lesson per week.  I don't know how long they 
are, but assume two hours each, at most.

That's 4 hours per week for half of the school year, and 2 hours per 
week for the other half of the school year, for a total of 120 kours 
= 5 days.  Not much at all!  Even if there are two two-hour lessons 
per week per subject (which I doubt), it is still only 10 days.



On the other hand, she was petrified for a much longer period in her 
second year.  Taking that into account, she is actually biologically 
YOUNGER than her chronological age.

Bill




From hickengruendler at yahoo.de  Sun Mar  7 00:41:23 2004
From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 00:41:23 -0000
Subject: Ginny's development (was: SHIP: Harry and Hermione)
In-Reply-To: <c2din2+jpb1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2dr3j+2fhi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92371

 
<belijako at o...> wrote:

Hickengruendler:

First of all, I just want to emphasize, when I say, that I dislike 
Ginny, I mean Ginny as a book character, and especially her 
development. If I would met her as a real person, I would probably 
like her very much. I know that you didn't say anything like this, 
but I just wanted to emphasize it.
 
> 
> Berit replies:
> 
> When reading the HP books (and I have, several times over), I've 
> never found Ginny's rapid development i OoP "unconvincing". After 
> all, most of the HP story is written from Harry's point of view, 
and 
> until OoP the only thing he saw of Ginny was a blushing, very shy 
> girl. He hardly inter-acted with her (or her Hogwarts peers) at 
all. 
> How could he possibly have seen the "real" Ginny behind her crush?

Hickengruendler:

Yes, but this is not "Harry Potter's diary", but a fictional tale. I 
can fully understand, that the character Harry isn't able to see the 
real Ginny, because of her crush, but it is JK Rowling's job, to make 
Ginny's development believable to the reader, and in my case she 
failed. I normally think she's excellent in the characterisations of 
the books, and that's why the way Ginny's development was done, was a 
negative surprise for me. Harry also didn't see much of Neville in 
the previous books, yet there were some tidbits, that suggested to 
the reader, that Neville is more, than he seems. We see Neville 
standing up to Crabbe and Goyle and later to the trio, we see Neville 
trying to warn his friends, that Draco wanted to lure them in the 
trap, we see Neville admitting, that it was him, who lost the 
passwords. Snape is completely hated by Harry, yet there are parts in 
the books, where it shows, that the Potions Master does have a heart 
and isn't completely evil. Percy is Harry's least favourite Weasley 
(and with good reason), yet there are scenes, where it's clear, that 
he does care for his family. I didn't see such scenes with Ginny 
before OotP. She was q bit more outgoing in the Yule Ball scene, but 
this didn't come close with the Ginny from OotP, IMO.
 
>I totally believe Ron when he says "You don't know how weird it is 
for 
> her to be this shy, she never shuts up normally-" (CoS p. 35).
<snip>This is very much supported with the 
> little bits of information we get about Ginny in OoP: That she 
> secretly has been "borrowing" Fred and George's brooms for many 
> years, making them *mildly impressed* when they hear of it! 

Hickengruendler:
Yes, we were told a lot about how cool Ginny is. But there's one 
rule: "Show not tell". And in Ginny's case I think there was to much 
telling, and not enough showing. I have no doubts, that JKR planned 
this Ginny from the beginning, and that Ron's line in CoS was a hint 
to this, but I don't buy it, because I, the reader, never saw Ginny 
acting this way before OotP, while I did see, for example, Neville 
proving his bravery several times. I "saw" McGonagall being sarcastic 
towards Trelawney, and therefore her behaviour towards Umbridge seems 
logical for me. I also "saw" McGonagall showing some heart under the 
gruff exterior (for example when Hermione was petrified), therefore I 
had no problems to believe, that she felt sorry for Trelawney and 
wanted to help her, even though she normally doesn't like her much. 
The "borrowing" the twins broomsticks especially bothers me. A)This 
would have been an excellent opportunity, to show the reader 
something. Couldn't Harry have witnessed Ginny "borrowing" the 
broomsticks. B.) There were at least six Weasleys in the burrow. 
Arthur, Molly, Percy, Fred, George and Ron. And I should believe that 
none of them ever saw Ginny practicing or stealing the brooms? Once, 
yes. Maybe twice, or three times, but not always. That's not 
possible. They must at least have seen her flying. In this case, I 
even would have prefered, that Ginny has some special flying talent, 
like Harry, but no way she was able to train secretly all this 
years.   

It's just that I think Ginny went from one extreme, to the other. 
Well okay, she is at an age where people change very fast, but Harry 
not seeing her developping means, that the whole development happened 
offscreen. This is IMO not satisfying.

Hickengruendler




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Sun Mar  7 00:43:01 2004
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 00:43:01 -0000
Subject: Harry's type of girl (SHIP)
In-Reply-To: <c2df7b+b861@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2dr6l+s4jp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92372

Erin wrote:

> I think we can safely conclude that Harry is attracted to women 
with 
> long black hair.  Padma Patil, anyone?

Hm.  He quite liked Sirius, too, also of long black hair.  Of 
course, he's dead now, but there's another character whose hair gets 
frequent mention...

I think we can now discern Dumbledore's *real* reason for insisting 
on the intimacy of those occlumency lessons.

David




From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Sun Mar  7 00:54:47 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 00:54:47 -0000
Subject: 'the one who left  for ever'  Was:  JKR chat
In-Reply-To: <c2d7e7+gvej@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2drsn+71ki@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92373

snip of Susan's post and part of Mandy's
> So, for Malfoy, if he believes Snape is really a loyal DE, great. 
> Snape has convincingly fooled DD and is filtering info on to LV.  
> Or if Malfoy believes Snape is really a loyal member of the Order 
and 
> a traitor to LV, great.  As Snape is still, to the world 
> Malfoy's 'friend' and for want of a better term 'lap dog,' and to 
> maintain that position Snape has to work for Malfoy, do what Malfoy 
> desires.  Malfoy has a potential gold mine of information in Snape 
to 
> tap when he chooses, or so he thinks.  Malfoy could very well 
believe 
> that he has manipulated Snape into the position where at any 
moment, 
> at Malfoy discretion; Snape will have no choice but to tell all to 
LV 
> and the DE.  
> 
> The question here is, is Snape smart, strong and brave enough to 
> allow Malfoy to believe this? Even if it is not true?  I think 
Snape 
> is that clever and that brave. 
> 
> Mandy

If Snape was not under a mask at the graveyard (which I think is 
unlikely for all of the reasons listed by other posters) then IMVHO 
he must be the one who Voldemort "thinks" has left him forever.  
Karkarof strikes me the quintesential coward.  He has turned on his 
friends to save his own skin, he spends GoF either whining about the 
tournament or sniveling about his aching arm.  I can imagine his 
meeting with Voldemort was lovely, and I am sure now he is given all 
kinds of important jobs, like hanging out with Wormtail spying on the 
giants (aren't they from around Durmstrang?) 

Snape on the other hand is way too smart to be somebody's lacky, even 
Malfoy.  I can imagine his meeting with Voldemort, which I am 
convinced happened just as it seemed, right after he showed the Dark 
Mark to Fudge.  I can imagine Snape kissing the him of Voldemort's 
robes and begging his forgiveness for doubting he would ever return.  
Then being instructed to stay where he was and take up the lead job 
of spying on DD again (much like MacNair was given the job of "muggle 
torture").  His return could not have been fun, but he did return.

We know from many examples of canon that no one leaves Voldmort.  It 
is either a lifelong commitment or death.  If Voldemort believed 
Snape had truly left him forever, he would not have lived to see the 
beginning of book 5.  BTW, asking whether we would ever see Karkarof 
again might have been a good one!

Sue, who continues to straddle the fence about Snape being redeemed.




From nkafkafi at yahoo.com  Sun Mar  7 01:31:03 2004
From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 01:31:03 -0000
Subject: The Fans v JK Rowling
In-Reply-To: <c2dr2t+caq1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2du0n+r3iu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92374


> Neri:
> {BTW: just gleefully adding my part to the confusion around 
> Hermione's age, I'll note that biologically she is actually several 
> months older than she is supposed to be, because of her use of the 
> time-turner to get into all those classes in PoA. The math (oh 
> dear...) goes like this: Hermione goes to the Charms class from 
> 11:00 to 12:00, then she jumps back in time one hour and goes to 
the 
> Ancient Runes class from 11:00 to 12:00. While for the outside 
world 
> only one hour had passed, for Hermione it was two hours. I'm sure 
> JKR was aware of this since she described how hungry was Hermione 
at 
> lunch. For her mealtime is long past due. So by how much was 
> Hermione aged during that year? If we assume that for about 9 
> months, she was repeating a third of each 24 hrs day (normal 
> teaching hours), then she added a third of those 9 months, or 
> additional 3 months. This means that at her 15th birthday (whenever 
> it was!) she was biologically 15 years and 3 months old...}
> 
> Bill:
> 
> I really doubt that she was repeating 8 hours a day, seven days a 
> week.  She was taking 3 extra subjects for half a year, then 2 
extra 
> subjects after she quit Divination.  We know that she can handle 
one 
> extra subject without using the time-turner, since she keeps it 
> after her third year.  She is evidently using the time-turner ONLY 
> for repeating the classroom time, since she is increasingly tired 
> and irritable through the year, from lack of sleep.  The 'optional' 
> classes seem to be one lesson per week.  I don't know how long they 
> are, but assume two hours each, at most.
> 
> That's 4 hours per week for half of the school year, and 2 hours 
per 
> week for the other half of the school year, for a total of 120 
kours 
> = 5 days.  Not much at all!  Even if there are two two-hour lessons 
> per week per subject (which I doubt), it is still only 10 days.
> 
> 
> 
> On the other hand, she was petrified for a much longer period in 
her 
> second year.  Taking that into account, she is actually 
biologically 
> YOUNGER than her chronological age.



Neri again:
Thanks for the correction. I really forgot about the time she spent 
petrified. 

Regarding how much she aged because of the time-traveling, your math 
seems correct, but here is a bit of canon:

PoA, Ch. 6 "Talons and tea leaves"

"Hermione was examining her new schedule.
"Ooh, good, we're starting some new subjects today," she said happily.
"Hermione," said Ron, frowning as he looked over her 
shoulder, "they've messed up your timetable. Look ? they've got you 
down for about ten subjects a day. There isn't enough time."
"I'll manage. I've fixed it all with Professor McGonagall."
"But look," said Ron, laughing, "see this morning? Nine o'clock, 
Divination. And underneath, nine o'clock, Muggle Studies. And ?" Ron 
leaned closer to the timetable, disbelieving, "look ? underneath 
that, Arithmancy, nine o'clock. I mean, I know you're good, Hermione, 
but no one's that good. How're you supposed to be in three classes at 
once?"

So she was actually doing some *triple* time, not just double time, 
and what Ron mentions already amounts to at least 2 additional hrs 
(assuming these lessons are only 1 hr each), and there must have been 
much more ("about ten subjects a day"). A chapter later we learn that 
she also goes to another class during the Potions class. So how do 
reconcile this with your math? Most probably we don't. Just add it to 
the growing list of JKR's mathematical Flints.

Neri   





From kreneeb at hotmail.com  Sun Mar  7 01:05:53 2004
From: kreneeb at hotmail.com (hermionekitten9)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 01:05:53 -0000
Subject: Harry's type of girl (SHIP)
Message-ID: <c2dshh+30m3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92375

Erin wrote:

> I think we can safely conclude that Harry is attracted to women
with
> long black hair. Padma Patil, anyone?

Kitten now...
You know who else has long Hair? Susan Bones... In the fifth book 
she is described as having a long plait down her back. No! I don't 
know if it's Dark, but it is long! 

Kitten, 
who doesn't understand why people think that Harry/Ginny
is a dead lock for the next books, and will continue to support the 
underdogs, with whatever she evidence she has no matter how small or 
meaningless.






From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Sun Mar  7 01:49:12 2004
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 01:49:12 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat  "The Crucial and Central Question"
In-Reply-To: <20040304220725.71880.qmail@web60804.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c2dv2o+31p2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92376

Jen Reese wrote:

> Did something happen to Tom Riddle at birth that interfered with 
his 
> attempt to kill Harry, rather than just the protection on Harry by 
> Lily, Dumbledore, etc.? JKR's reply says there was more to his 
birth 
> than reported so far (all reported by Tom and therefore possibly 
> inaccurate). Was in a magical occurence? Another insult from the 
> Riddle family? 
 
Jo Jo Binks replied:

> Didn't Voldie's mum die giving birth to him. She was a witch so if 
it was a choice between the two surviving, and the mother chose 
Voldie couldn't this be another example of "ancient" protective 
magic. He said himself "I should have remembered it" or something 
along those lines (GoF). Might explain the rebounded AK not killing 
him (if that's what it was).

I think this is a distinct possibility.  See post 31243:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/31243
where I elaborated this idea.

Post-OOP, we might interpret 'marking as his equal' to mean that 
Voldemort activated the mother love spell (I tend to agree with 
Amanda's husband that sacrifice alone is not enough: it needs to be 
accompanied by a pre-prepared spell) by killing Lily, thus giving 
Harry the mark of love.  The scar is then not the mark, though it 
symbolises it, since, because AK alone leaves no mark, it must be 
the interaction between the love-defence and the AK that creates a 
scar.

It is also interesting in this context to speculate on the nature of 
Neville's relationship with his mother.  In Harry's case, Lily was 
attacked for Harry's sake, so it's clear she loved him enough for 
the protection to be activated.  Perhaps one risk of the mother love 
spell (if such there be) is that if the mother is attacked and 
suffers, but not for the sake of her child, then there is a knock-on 
effect on the child.  Thoughts?

David




From kking0731 at hotmail.com  Sun Mar  7 01:48:51 2004
From: kking0731 at hotmail.com (Kathy King)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 20:48:51 -0500
Subject: Behind the Locked Door
Message-ID: <Sea2-F35smglskkDBfC0006aaa9@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92377


Whats behind the locked door at the Department of Mysteries?

I feel what they study behind the locked door at the Department of Mysteries 
(Dumbledore states pg.843 Oop it is more wonderful and terrible than 
death) is a persons Will to

If you think about the will of a person who has been sick with cancer and 
the doctors are dumb founded as to how that person miraculously is cured or 
the woman who could have picked up a car that had fallen on someone. What 
gave that person the power to heal them selves or to pick up something 
that the physical mind deems unrealistic but the Will to do it?

If you are a good person with a strong will, you can use that will to make 
wonderful things happen. In the same respect a person with an ambitious 
and controlling mind could use his will to make terrible things happen. 
Like with the Mirror of Erased, Dumbledore also described it in much the 
same way as the locked door in the Ministry: pg.298 SS it is a beautiful 
and terrible thing. Voldemort saw what he wanted but could not will the 
object from the mirror because it was protected by Dumbledore to only let 
someone with (a good will) good intentions actually obtain what they saw.

This brings me to Harrys will. Harry could be a metamorphmagus by 
changing his appearance (by growing back his hair over night in SS) or he 
just felt so strongly that he willed it to happen. Harry could have 
(unlikely) apparated when Dudleys gang was after him and he found himself 
on the rooftop or he could have willed it to happen. Harry could have cast 
a shield charm during the occlumency lesson with Snape or he could have not 
wanted Snape to see him and Cho so badly that he willed it not to happen. 
When Harry walked into the circular room and said, pg.809 Oop wheres the 
exitwheres the way out he willed it to happen. Mind over matter.

Harry doesnt have control yet, over these emotions that cause him to make 
situations happen. Like the instance with Aunt Marge, Harry doesnt 
concentrate on blowing her up, but his emotion or will to hurt her did 
take over. Harry hasnt recognized the power of mind that he has. Harry 
hasnt connected the fact that (in the graveyard) he concentrated with all 
his might to move the gold bead towards Voldemorts wand. Harry didnt 
understand why he was doing it, or what was going to happen but his will 
and concentration came together to over power Voldemort.

This will of the mind leads to my finale conclusion, which is a bit hazy 
at best, but it fits the above scenario. Why did Harry and Voldemort both 
live that night in Godrics Hollow? Ive made the analogy to it in this way: 
Its like having conjoined twins, only this is not physical but mentally 
conjoined. A lot of times when you have physically conjoined twins that 
share a common organ, you may have to sacrifice one to save the other. Harry 
and Voldemort share one common organ, the mind. They need to be separated to 
live, which means one has to die. This is what I feel the prophecy is saying 
that neither can live while the other survives. When Voldemort attempted to 
kill Harry (the hazy part) their minds intertwined. The curse rebounded but 
could not kill Voldemort because of the steps he took to make himself 
immortal (Voldemorts graveyard speech to the death eaters). The curse 
actually, IMO, must have connected Voldemort and Harrys minds. We can see 
how Harry has acquired some of Voldemorts traits (as Dumbledore put it in 
CoS pg.333) he transferred some of his powersnot something he intended to 
do but we have yet to see how Voldemort has acquired any of Harrys. There 
is one example during the graveyard scene, when Voldemort is reminiscing to 
Harry about his parents, where he says that he is becoming quite 
sentimental. This would be the only thing I have seen where Voldemort 
portraits traits that are unlikely his own. Harry has qualities that would 
make him a good Slytherin candidate (which shows that Harry did indeed 
receive some part of Voldemort) but also retains the qualities born in him 
that are a true Gryffindore. The finale duel must be a Battle of the 
Mind. Finale: Slytherin dueling with Gryffindore or should I say the 
Phoenix and the Snake? (Snappy title for the last book, dont you think?)

Please feel free to attack, dismember, or other wise mutilate the above 
suggestion.

Kathy

_________________________________________________________________
Learn how to help protect your privacy and prevent fraud online at Tech 
Hacks & Scams. http://special.msn.com/msnbc/techsafety.armx





From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Sun Mar  7 02:15:08 2004
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 02:15:08 -0000
Subject: Need Quote: Help with Sirius's Motorcyle
Message-ID: <c2e0jc+hh00@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92378

Since the subject of Sirius's motorbike came up in the Chat, it
reminded me of something I heard about a long time ago, but never paid
much attention too.

In the USA edition of PS/SS (paraphrased) Hagrid said he needed to
return Sirius's motorbike to him, BUT in the UK edition, it says that,
roughly, Hagrid needed to put it away.

Is there anyone who has both books who would like to look that up and
quote the differences here for me.

Thank you for your help.

bboy_mn





From nkafkafi at yahoo.com  Sun Mar  7 02:42:05 2004
From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 02:42:05 -0000
Subject: Need Quote: Help with Sirius's Motorcyle
In-Reply-To: <c2e0jc+hh00@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2e25t+mlql@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92379

Steve" wrote:
> Since the subject of Sirius's motorbike came up in the Chat, it
> reminded me of something I heard about a long time ago, but never 
paid
> much attention too.
> 
> In the USA edition of PS/SS (paraphrased) Hagrid said he needed to
> return Sirius's motorbike to him, BUT in the UK edition, it says 
that,
> roughly, Hagrid needed to put it away.
> 
> Is there anyone who has both books who would like to look that up 
and
> quote the differences here for me.
> 
> Thank you for your help.
> 
> bboy_mn

Neri:
That's an interesting point. Your memory is quite accurate. My 
electronic version of PS (from Bloomsbery, 1997) has in the end of 
chapter 1:

"Yeah," said Hagrid in a very muffled voice. "I'd best get this bike 
away. G'night, Professor McGonagall ? Professor Dumbledore, sir."

My paperback SS (Scholastic, 1999):

"Yeah," said Hagrid in a very muffled voice. "I'll be takin' Sirius 
his bike back. G'night, Professor McGonagall ? Professor Dumbledore, 
sir."

I can see no other differences, except that in the next paragraph, PS 
has "motorbike" and SS has "motorcycle". Hope it helps.

Neri 




From greatelderone at yahoo.com  Sun Mar  7 02:45:49 2004
From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 02:45:49 -0000
Subject: Ron, Hermione and the Elves was Re: SHIP: Harry and Hermione
In-Reply-To: <c2dr20+8k2d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2e2ct+umgr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92380

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> 
wrote:
> Ron seems to be much more interested than House Elf 
> liberation than Harry does. At least he's willing to discuss it. 

Except he seems to be more interested in maintaining the status quo 
than trying to break or destroy it like Hermione. Of course thats 
just my opinion.

> She's been trying for two books now to convince him  that 
> they would get used to freedom if they had it. Muggle thinking, of 
> course.  

Which in the five books is proving to be more advanced than the 
wizard's unless slavery, institutionalized torture, lack of due 
process and legalized discrimination is your cup of tea. :)

>  Fred, in GoF,  advises Hermione not to go upsetting the Elves 
> because it will put them off their cooking. Ron predicts later that 
> they will send substandard food to the Gryffindor table if they are 
> insulted.  It sounds like they're just being  pigs, but we learn in 
> OOP that Elves can and do refuse to work if they're offended. 

And we also learn that they have to obey the words of their masters 
as if it was law and like any law there are loop holes as in the case 
with Kreacher and Sirus. No doubt Dumbledore gives the elves in 
Hogwarts more leeway since he does seem interest in the rights of the 
lesser beings.

> Does that sound like slavery as we know it?

But it's still slavery. The elves are being treated as nothing more 
or less as property of the wizarding houses or Hogwarts. They can't 
leave the services of the masters by their own free will and don't 
seem to have the rights that the wizards have. Just because they 
actually like or have adapted to their servitude doesn't mean it's 
not or that it's right.




From drednort at alphalink.com.au  Sun Mar  7 02:46:54 2004
From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 13:46:54 +1100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Need Quote: Help with Sirius's Motorcyle
In-Reply-To: <c2e25t+mlql@eGroups.com>
References: <c2e0jc+hh00@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <404B27CE.3174.8C0DE8@localhost>

No: HPFGUIDX 92381

On 7 Mar 2004 at 2:42, nkafkafi wrote:

> Neri:
> That's an interesting point. Your memory is quite accurate. My 
> electronic version of PS (from Bloomsbery, 1997) has in the end of 
> chapter 1:
> 
> "Yeah," said Hagrid in a very muffled voice. "I'd best get this bike 
> away. G'night, Professor McGonagall ? Professor Dumbledore, sir."

My Bloomsbury has: "Yeah," said Hagrid in a very muffled voice. "I'll be takin' Sirius 
his bike back. G'night, Professor McGonagall ? Professor Dumbledore, sir."

Interestingly it doesn't have the year it was printed listed 
anywhere - it must be after 2000 because it has that as a Trademark 
date - but no actualy date of publication besides the First 
Published 1997.

Maybe this text was changed from earlier editions.



Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Sun Mar  7 02:57:51 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 02:57:51 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Harry and Hermione
In-Reply-To: <7f.436e6d19.2d7afe1b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <c2e33f+6ef1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92382

snip
>  Kitten writes:
> <As for Ginny Weasley...someone, I think on this list, called her 
> <Ron-with-boobs, I LOVED THAT!

snip of rest of previous post ahd part of Kitten's

Actually I see her as more of a female triplet to the twins.  There 
are many mentions in canon of how "remarkably like the twins" Ginny 
looks, especially when she is angry or determined about something.  
Ron goes along for the ride, Ginny pushes the boat from shore.

Sue, who will leave the "shipping" thing alone for now.




From nkafkafi at yahoo.com  Sun Mar  7 03:09:16 2004
From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 03:09:16 -0000
Subject: Need Quote: Help with Sirius's Motorcyle
In-Reply-To: <404B27CE.3174.8C0DE8@localhost>
Message-ID: <c2e3os+c1i7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92383

> > Neri:
> > That's an interesting point. Your memory is quite accurate. My 
> > electronic version of PS (from Bloomsbery, 1997) has in the end 
of 
> > chapter 1:
> > 
> > "Yeah," said Hagrid in a very muffled voice. "I'd best get this 
bike 
> > away. G'night, Professor McGonagall ? Professor Dumbledore, sir."


> Shaun Hately:
> My Bloomsbury has: "Yeah," said Hagrid in a very muffled 
voice. "I'll be takin' Sirius 
> his bike back. G'night, Professor McGonagall ? Professor 
Dumbledore, sir."
> 
> Interestingly it doesn't have the year it was printed listed 
> anywhere - it must be after 2000 because it has that as a Trademark 
> date - but no actualy date of publication besides the First 
> Published 1997.
> 
> Maybe this text was changed from earlier editions.
> 

Curiouser and curiouser. This suggests that Hagrid's taking the bike 
back to Sirius is important. Did Hagrid manage to find Sirius before 
Sirius found Peter? Otherwise I don't see how this changes anything.

Neri





From greatelderone at yahoo.com  Sun Mar  7 03:12:02 2004
From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 03:12:02 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat  "The Crucial and Central Question"
In-Reply-To: <F44B1222-6FBC-11D8-BC58-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu>
Message-ID: <c2e3u2+3fg8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92384

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Laura Ingalls Huntley 
<lhuntley at f...> wrote:

> I should have seen it from the beginning, really.  I mean, his 
reasons 
> for leaving Harry with the emotionally (and even physically, to an 
> extent) abusive Dursleys are just *so* weak.  He doesn't want the 
boy 
> to get a big head?  Privet Drive is the *only* place Harry will be 
> safe?  

Aside from Hogwarts and possibly in Dumbledore's presence I'd say: 
yes. 

> Please.  Dumbledore could have solved *both* these problems by 
> raising Harry himself.  I'm sorry, but it's the least he could have 
> done for a child that was destined to save the Wizarding World, if 
he 
> had *truly* had that child's best interests at heart.

Except we've seen that Dumbledore is a very busy man. Aside from 
leading an underground movement against a dark lord he also had to 
run a school and maintain order there. Look at what happened when an 
unpopular headmaster like Umbridge was appointed. Besides he's an old 
man not exactly versed in taking care of a child.

> 
> As for Sirius's death in OotP -- I don't think Dumbledore 
specifically 
> orchestrated it, but I don't think he's particularly sorry it 
happened, 
> either.  What better way to teach Harry the lessons he needs to 
learn?

Except sacrificing Sirus, a powerful wizard in his own right, just to 
teach Harry a lesson is not worth it especially since Voldemort had 
already begun making the alliance with the giants..

> Dumbledore *is* moulding Harry into a weapon with which to destroy 
> Voldemort.  

I think the term champion works better. 

> And he *is* sorry -- he *does* care for Harry -- I believe 
> he was being sincere when he "explained everything" at the end of 
OotP. 
>   In this case he has chosen between what he thinks is right, and 
what 
> would be easy.

If he had chosen the easy route he'd have allowed Voldemort into 
Harry sooner and then killed Harry while Voldemort was inside Harry's 
mind. The fact that he didn't do that and had Snape teach Harry 
occlumency thus sacrificing Snape's time as a OOTP member and as a 
spy signals that he cares for Harry and wants him intact.

 
> Personally, I think Dumbledore is in for a big surprise when it 
comes 
> to Harry -- eventually the kid is going to grow up and refuse to be 
> used anymore.  And then . . . what happens?  Can Harry defeat 
Voldemort 
> on his own terms, or will he be forced to put differences aside and 
> accept Dumbledore's game plan?

Harry will defeat Voldemort without Dumbledore's help. The hero's 
path generally has the hero doing it after the mentor dies. However I 
disagree with the idea that Dumbledore is manipulating Harry and 
sacrificing him all for the sake of the wizard world. He hasn't done 
anything that shows that he can't be trusted. He hasn't lied like 
another bearded lightsaber wielding mentor. 




From greatraven at hotmail.com  Sun Mar  7 03:18:16 2004
From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 03:18:16 -0000
Subject: Harry's type of girl (SHIP)
In-Reply-To: <1d3.1b6fd464.2d7bae23@aol.com>
Message-ID: <c2e49o+eerd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92385

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Meliss9900 at a... 
wrote:
> In a message dated 03/06/2004 4:06:51 PM Central Standard 
Time, 
> erinellii at y... writes:
> 
> 
> > I think we can safely conclude that Harry is attracted to 
women with 
> > long black hair.  Padma Patil, anyone?
> > 
> > 
> > Erin
> > 
> 
> Well all we really have to base Harry's type on is the one girl 
that we know 
> that Harry was drawn to physically: Cho Chang.  She's pretty, 
petite, she has 
> dark hair, eyes and she's smart. 
> 
> Hermione is petite, has dark hair and eyes, pretty (Harry's 
reaction in  GOF) 
> and smart  
> 
> It isn't until OOTP that Harry (and the readers) learn anything 
about Cho's 
> personality.  A personality that Harry apparently finds a bit  
wanting (let's 
> face it the girl is jealous and needy).  OTOH Harry obviously 
has no problems 
> with Hermione's personality or they wouldn't still be friends.
> 
> Mel

Sue B:

Am I the only one, amid all this speculation about relationships, 
who thinks that Harry will end up, like Luke Skywalker, with no 
one? Lots of  friends, no doubt, and a "family" (the Weasleys), 
but no woman? I did think it might be Ginny, and it might be yet, 
but it's too convenient. Ginny is over him, in my opinion, though 
she could well be a friend like Hermione. I see the series ending 
with Ron and Hermione, that Beatrice and Benedick of the WW, 
together, arguing all the way up the aisle, and perhaps Ginny 
going off to play Quidditch for England and be independent - or 
maybe with a new character in her life - and Harry, still alone, 
getting on with his life, after a lot of loss.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nkafkafi at yahoo.com  Sun Mar  7 03:29:23 2004
From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 03:29:23 -0000
Subject: Harry's type of girl (SHIP)
In-Reply-To: <c2e49o+eerd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2e4uj+8c5f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92386

> Sue B:
> 
> Am I the only one, amid all this speculation about relationships, 
> who thinks that Harry will end up, like Luke Skywalker, with no 
> one? Lots of  friends, no doubt, and a "family" (the Weasleys), 
> but no woman? I did think it might be Ginny, and it might be yet, 
> but it's too convenient. Ginny is over him, in my opinion, though 
> she could well be a friend like Hermione. I see the series ending 
> with Ron and Hermione, that Beatrice and Benedick of the WW, 
> together, arguing all the way up the aisle, and perhaps Ginny 
> going off to play Quidditch for England and be independent - or 
> maybe with a new character in her life - and Harry, still alone, 
> getting on with his life, after a lot of loss.
> > 

Neri:
This very well might be, but JKR had just promised us a bit of 
romance for Harry in Book 6, maybe even some kissing. So who's the 
lucky one? Somehow I don't see Harry just having a bit of fun with 
Padma between the rose bushes.





From DBoyken at aol.com  Sun Mar  7 03:39:17 2004
From: DBoyken at aol.com (Deb)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 03:39:17 -0000
Subject: Behind the Locked Door
In-Reply-To: <Sea2-F35smglskkDBfC0006aaa9@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <c2e5h6+s4a5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92387

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathy King" <kking0731 at h...> 
wrote:

> I feel what they study behind the locked door at the Department of 
Mysteries > (Dumbledore states pg.843 Oop "it is more wonderful and 
terrible than > death") is a person's "Will" to


I tend to think that (not to be cliche) that it's Love or Emotion. 
Harry has a lot of passion and at the moment when LV tried to get DD 
to kill Harry by possessing him, he couldn't stay because, as 
Dumbledore tells Harry, he is too full of the force which Voldemort 
cannot bear. I think Voldemort has no problem whatsoever with having 
a strong Will, but he's pretty cold and emotionless. Harry may also 
have willpower, but he's got emotions up the wazoo--especially in 
book #5! Besides, doesn't DD tell him that the door is locked because 
it's such a powerful force that no one understands? I'd say that 
passion makes people do things they don't understand all the time.

Deb in NJ




From greatelderone at yahoo.com  Sun Mar  7 03:39:29 2004
From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 03:39:29 -0000
Subject: Harry's type of girl (SHIP)
In-Reply-To: <c2e49o+eerd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2e5hh+a9o5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92388

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sbursztynski" 
<greatraven at h...> wrote:
> Am I the only one, amid all this speculation about relationships, 
> who thinks that Harry will end up, like Luke Skywalker, with no 
> one? 

Yeah, but Luke ends up with a wife and kid in the novels. Takes a 
long time, but it happens and it's canonical.

> and Harry, still alone, 
> getting on with his life, after a lot of loss.

I agree it's infinitely more possible that he has to recover from the 
war emotionally, physically and mentally. Remember there's still more 
deaths in front of him not to mention those of his parents, Cedric 
and Sirus's whom he witnessed in front of him. However unless he goes 
the way of Frodo and goes to the HP version of Valinor I think it's 
more likely that he ends up with someone in end. Might not be 
Hermione, Ginny or Luna, might not even be a character that we've 
seen, but I think in the end that he ends up with someone.






From DBoyken at aol.com  Sun Mar  7 03:47:11 2004
From: DBoyken at aol.com (Deb)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 03:47:11 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat  "The Crucial and Central Question"
In-Reply-To: <c2e3u2+3fg8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2e5vv+7id3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92389

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatelderone" 
<greatelderone at y...> wrote:
> If he had chosen the easy route he'd have allowed Voldemort into 
> Harry sooner and then killed Harry while Voldemort was inside 
Harry's > mind. The fact that he didn't do that and had Snape teach 
Harry > occlumency thus sacrificing Snape's time as a OOTP member and 
as a > spy signals that he cares for Harry and wants him intact.


------------Two things I'd say to this:

1. Having heard the prophecy, Dumbledore knows that no-one but Harry 
is going to be able to kill Voldemort, so that trying to kill V while 
inside Harry isn't going to work.

2. I think he assigned Snape to teach occlumency (one) because he 
didn't want to risk Voldemort knowing he cared about Harry, as he 
told him, but also (two) I think he was hoping Snape & Harry might 
find some common ground, something sympathetic in the other. 
Dumbledore seems to be an optimist where human relationships are 
concerned--he hoped that Snape and Sirius would put aside their 
animosity--I think he's hoping that Harry and Snape will work 
TOGETHER at some point. The fact that they hate each other so much 
that Snape threw Harry out and Harry never thought to go to Snape 
about his vision pretty much shows that THAT's not going to happen 
any time soon, but I think Dumbledore is hoping!

Deb in NJ




From kking0731 at hotmail.com  Sun Mar  7 04:05:37 2004
From: kking0731 at hotmail.com (Kathy King)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 23:05:37 -0500
Subject: JKR: different middle name
Message-ID: <Sea2-F41oiPpdT7a9Uq00036d72@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92390


As everyone else is pondering on Rons middle name and his uncle, I 
immediately thought of Hermiones middle name and thought of Dolores Jane 
Umbridge OoP pg. 146. If you noticed JKR put an emphasis on the name Jane 
(but not the other two). Hope there is no connection there at all! (JKR also 
does the same emphasis with Lupins middle name, John?). But all the same it 
came to me as Rons middle name of Bilius and his uncle seeing the Grim, 
seemed to be the first thing most of you thought of and yet my eyes went to 
Hermiones Jane.

Kathy (who doesnt really want to post this! Not if there would be a 
connection between Umbridge and Hermione)


Kathy




From greatelderone at yahoo.com  Sun Mar  7 04:16:48 2004
From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 04:16:48 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat  "The Crucial and Central Question"
In-Reply-To: <c2e5vv+7id3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2e7ng+65dr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92391

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Deb" <DBoyken at a...> wrote:
 
> 1. Having heard the prophecy, Dumbledore knows that no-one but 
Harry 
> is going to be able to kill Voldemort, so that trying to kill V 
while 
> inside Harry isn't going to work.

The prophecy doesn't invalidate the fact that someone else might kill 
Voldemort. All it says is that Harry has the power to vanquish 
Voldemort and that one is going to die due to the other. Voldemort 
dying inside of Harry's body is within the bounds of the prophecy. 
Remember prophecies are very tricky things. Harry getting killed by 
Dumbledore you could say would be indirectly due to Voldemort. 

But would that kill Voldemort? I think killing Harry with Voldemort 
inside would probably result in Voldemort losing his mind which would 
technically mean that Voldemort would still be alive so the prophecy 
would still be in tact. Of course this is all very theoretical.





From lhuntley at fandm.edu  Sun Mar  7 04:22:00 2004
From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 23:22:00 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR Chat  "The Crucial and Central Question"
In-Reply-To: <c2e3u2+3fg8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <FAAA084C-6FEE-11D8-BC58-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 92392

Laura (me):
>> Please.  Dumbledore could have solved *both* these problems by
>> raising Harry himself.  I'm sorry, but it's the least he could have
>> done for a child that was destined to save the Wizarding World, if he
>> had *truly* had that child's best interests at heart.

greatelderone:
> Except we've seen that Dumbledore is a very busy man. Aside from
> leading an underground movement against a dark lord he also had to
> run a school and maintain order there. Look at what happened when an
> unpopular headmaster like Umbridge was appointed. Besides he's an old
> man not exactly versed in taking care of a child.

I'll give you that he's busy.  I'll even give you that he may have been 
a less than desirable father (I disagree with you there actually -- I 
think Dumbledore is better than most Potterverse adults at 
understanding and connecting w/ children).  But remember the 
alternative?

I just don't buy that he was too *busy* to save an innocent child (who 
he *knew* would someday have to save the world) from a childhood of 
emotional and physical abuse.

And I don't know if it could technically be said that there was all 
that much to do  in the underground movement department, at least after 
the first couple years or so, as the DE's were pretty much subdued by 
that time and Voldy was kinda incorporeal.

Laura:
>> As for Sirius's death in OotP -- I don't think Dumbledore specifically
>> orchestrated it, but I don't think he's particularly sorry it 
>> happened,
>> either.  What better way to teach Harry the lessons he needs to learn?

greatelderone:
> Except sacrificing Sirus, a powerful wizard in his own right, just to
> teach Harry a lesson is not worth it especially since Voldemort had
> already begun making the alliance with the giants..

Well . . . can Sirius *really* be considered an asset in OotP?  He's 
impetuous, irrational, and spoiling for a fight -- not to mention he's 
a bad influence on Harry (keeps trying to get him to do inadvisable 
things).  *And* he can't leave the headquarters (except that he does 
anyway, which just causes more trouble).  We know that *Sirius*, at 
least, feels that he isn't being productive in the Order.  I'm *really* 
not saying that Dumbledore *wanted* Sirius to die, mind you, just that 
it was probably sort of convenient for him.

(Note: the above was not an attack on Sirius -- personally, I think 
Dumbledore made a very bad decision in cooping him up in that house, 
alone with Kreacher, waiting for all the people who were actually 
*doing* something for the Order to come back so he could make them tea. 
  Really, I can't think of a worse situation to put a man like Sirius 
in.  It's just like *begging* him to do something rash.)

Laura:
>> Dumbledore *is* moulding Harry into a weapon with which to destroy
>> Voldemort.

greatelderone:
> I think the term champion works better.

Perhaps.  Although, note JKR's own implication of Harry as a "weapon."  
Again, I'm not saying that Dumbledore is *bad* or unethical or 
anything, just that he's pulling Harry's strings for the greater good 
and I think he's gonna get burned for it.

Laura:
>> And he *is* sorry -- he *does* care for Harry -- I believe
>> he was being sincere when he "explained everything" at the end of 
>> OotP.
>>   In this case he has chosen between what he thinks is right, and what
>> would be easy.

greatelderone:
> If he had chosen the easy route he'd have allowed Voldemort into
> Harry sooner and then killed Harry while Voldemort was inside Harry's
> mind. The fact that he didn't do that and had Snape teach Harry
> occlumency thus sacrificing Snape's time as a OOTP member and as a
> spy signals that he cares for Harry and wants him intact.

I have no doubt he cares for Harry, and I do think he has limits on 
just how much he'll put the kid through.  He might orchestrate Harry's 
childhood so that he grows up able to depend only upon himself when he 
needs to, but I don't think he would go so far as to, for instance, let 
Ron or Hermione die to give Harry a reason to go after Voldy.

As for the example you cited above, Dumbledore "knows" that *Harry* is 
the only one capable of killing Voldy, doesn't he?  I'm not saying that 
he would have done it if he'd thought it would work, but that 
particular example doesn't really prove anything.

Laura (who hopes the citing in this message isn't *too* confusing.)




From greatelderone at yahoo.com  Sun Mar  7 04:28:05 2004
From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 04:28:05 -0000
Subject: JKR: different middle name
In-Reply-To: <Sea2-F41oiPpdT7a9Uq00036d72@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <c2e8cl+542h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92393

I think it's more of a reference/tribute possibly to Jane Austen 
whose novels Rowling seems to be a fan of or to Jane Eyre which is 
similar to the novels.

However I think it's more interesting that Hermione and Harry have 
the same middle and first initials and of course when she was setting 
everything up Hermione had the exact same initials as Harry(HP). Very 
interesting imo though I'm somewhat curious why she made the last 
name changes for hermione and also neville.




From yswahl at stis.net  Sun Mar  7 04:32:29 2004
From: yswahl at stis.net (samnanya)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 04:32:29 -0000
Subject: Neville will do what Dumbledore won't  - this explains it all
In-Reply-To: <c2e5vv+7id3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2e8kt+o7g9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92394

Deb in NJ
Having heard the prophecy, Dumbledore knows that no-one but Harry 
is going to be able to kill Voldemort, so that trying to kill V while 
inside Harry isn't going to work.

Samnanya
I disagree - that is DUMBLEDORE's weakness - but there is someone else 
who can and will do what Dumbledore won't. 
I always thought it unusual that Neville was responsible for the 
tie-breaking vote in SS for bringing the house cup to Griffindor. 
Dumbledore saved Neville's seemingly minor act for last recognition, 
after the larger contributions of Hermione, Ron and Harry. Standing up 
to your friends is very difficult indeed - and Dumbledore recognizes 
this trait as of utmost importance. 
I would not be suprised at all if at the end of book 7 it is Neville 
who stands up to a seemingly defeated and Voldemort-occupied Harry and 
"defeats" Harry/Voldemort in the end (or sacrifices himself trying), 
thus restoring Harry to full and exclusive control of his body. 
Harry will be able to defeat the physical form of Voldemort but this 
time the Dark Lord will retreat to where he is safest - in Harry.

BTW - That could also be why part of the prophecy is repeated TWICE. 
This is also in common with Trelawney's prophecy in POA which was 
repeated TWICE and also "happened" twice due to the time turner - the 
net result that the prophecy was true in both instances with Wormtail 
escaped in both instances. 








From greatelderone at yahoo.com  Sun Mar  7 04:58:01 2004
From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 04:58:01 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat  "The Crucial and Central Question"
In-Reply-To: <FAAA084C-6FEE-11D8-BC58-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu>
Message-ID: <c2ea4p+cjcu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92395

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Laura Ingalls Huntley 
<lhuntley at f...> wrote:
> And I don't know if it could technically be said that there was all 
> that much to do  in the underground movement department, at least 
after 
> the first couple years or so, as the DE's were pretty much subdued 
by 
> that time and Voldy was kinda incorporeal.

I think it could be said that the DEs were more terrible once 
Voldemort was removed. Without him as their leader and with a power 
vaccuum, they could become far more terrible than Voldemort ever was. 
Remember what happened to the Longbottoms.

> Well . . . can Sirius *really* be considered an asset in OotP?  

Yes. He may not be the most powerful wizard, but I'm willing to bet 
that he still has quite a lot of power. After all becoming an 
animagus imo takes a lot of skill and power. 

> He's 
> impetuous, irrational, and spoiling for a fight 

Good for a war wouldn't you say?


> -- not to mention he's 
> a bad influence on Harry (keeps trying to get him to do inadvisable 
> things).

So is Ron. Aside from this if I were Dumbledore killing Lupin would 
have worked better. Fellow's a werewolf and the weakest of the 
original four(in mind) aside from Wormtail. Plus he didn't even tell 
Dumbledore that James, Sirus and Pettigrew were animagi when he had 
the chance. 

>*And* he can't leave the headquarters (except that he does 
> anyway, which just causes more trouble).  

Don't think so short term. Sirus would still be very useful in the 
long term especially when the battles starting happening. Right now 
when it's a secret war, Sirus wouldn't be of much use, but his use 
would increase once Voldemort starts striking out with his army.

> Again, I'm not saying that Dumbledore is *bad* or unethical or 
> anything, just that he's pulling Harry's strings for the greater 
good 
> and I think he's gonna get burned for it.

I think Dumbledore is obviously trying to make look out both for the 
wizard world and Harry. Remember what he said that he was unwilling 
to tell him the prophecy in PoA and CoS because he wanted Harry to be 
happy? He obviously cares for the kid as a person not just as a 
warrior or a champion.




From stevejjen at earthlink.net  Sun Mar  7 04:59:16 2004
From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 04:59:16 -0000
Subject: Tom Riddle's Birth (Re: JKR Chat  "The Crucial ...")
In-Reply-To: <c2dv2o+31p2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2ea74+qtf3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92396

Jen Reese wrote: 
Did something happen to Tom Riddle at birth that interfered with 
his attempt to kill Harry, rather than just the protection on Harry 
by Lily, Dumbledore, etc.? 

Jo Jo Binks replied:
Didn't Voldie's mum die giving birth to him. She was a witch so if 
it was a choice between the two surviving, and the mother chose 
Voldie couldn't this be another example of "ancient" protective 
magic. He said himself "I should have remembered it" or something 
along those lines (GoF). Might explain the rebounded AK not killing 
him (if that's what it was).

David:
<snipping>
I think this is a distinct possibility.  See post 31243:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/31243
where I elaborated this idea.
 
Post-OOP, we might interpret 'marking as his equal' to mean that 
Voldemort activated the mother love spell by killing Lily, thus 
giving Harry the mark of love.  The scar is then not the mark, 
though it symbolises it, since, because AK alone leaves no mark, it 
must be the interaction between the love-defence and the AK that 
creates a scar.
 
In Harry's case, Lily was attacked for Harry's sake, so it's clear 
she loved him enough for the protection to be activated.  Perhaps 
one risk of the mother love spell (if such there be) is that if the 
mother is attacked and suffers, but not for the sake of her child, 
then there is a knock-on effect on the child.  Thoughts?


Jen Reese again: 
First, thanks for the link to your post David--very compelling read. 

I think what you're saying above is Riddle's mom may have suffered 
and died, but not in an attempt to save her child, so somehow 
the 'love sacrifice' turned on Tom? 

"I don't believe anybody was born evil, you will find out more about 
the circumstances of his birth in the next book"---this basically 
says to me that Voldemort's whole transfiguration from Tom Riddle, 
orphan, to Voldemort the evil overlord, has its roots in something 
around his birth. It could be a charm-gone-wrong like David 
mentioned, or an actual curse upon Tom at birth. (That might negate 
the Choice theory somewhat). Perhaps his mom didn't even die in 
childbirth, but rejected him or even tried to kill him at birth and 
Tom survived but was 'scarred' as well, the curse 'in his very 
skin'. His AK bounced off baby Harry from the force of the love 
sacrifice in Harry's very being, and sought out the skin of the 
cursed Lord Voldemort instead.

The only thing I feel certain of is Tom Riddle doesn't know 'the 
circumstances of his birth'. He accepts Harry's answer in COS that 
Harry didn't die as a baby because of Lily's sacrifice, period. His 
story of his mom dying in childbirth sounds like what the orphanage 
told him, a well-meaning explanation possibly used frequently for 
children who were abandoned at birth.

So much to think about!






From kking0731 at hotmail.com  Sun Mar  7 03:52:22 2004
From: kking0731 at hotmail.com (Kathy King)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 22:52:22 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Behind the Locked Door
Message-ID: <Sea2-F52vGOp9ElgC0F0006aa5b@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92397


Thanks for the response! But Deb isnt your will born from your emotions 
such as: love or many other emotions? It is the force or "power" that moves 
those emotions.
Maybe Im wrong. Just my thoughts.




Kathy

_________________________________________________________________
Find things fast with the new MSN Toolbar  includes FREE pop-up blocking! 
http://clk.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200414ave/direct/01/





From dk59us at yahoo.com  Sun Mar  7 04:19:16 2004
From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 04:19:16 -0000
Subject: Harry's 11th Birthday Return to Little Whinging (Was Re: Mea Culpa!)
In-Reply-To: <c2bisk+c27q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2e7s4+37on@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92398

Eustace_Scrubb asked:
 4) Is Harry as safe in the yard as he is in the house?

Sue answered: 
 I think not.  Every note he recieves in OotP tells him to *stay in 
 the house* (emphasis Sirius and Mr. Weasley).  Since the end of
OotP, 
 I have felt this puts Petunia's "go to your room!" in a whole new 
 light. 
 Sue

Eustace_Scrubb again:

  I agree with you.  But this again raises in my mind the question of 
  why Hagrid would have allowed Harry to travel alone from Paddington 
  to Little Whinging laden with Hedwig and all of his books and 
  supplies, with no idea whether the Dursleys would be home when he 
  got there--or whether they'd let him back in.

  They clearly woke later than Hagrid and Harry and would have found 
  the boat gone.  Perhaps the gap-toothed boat owner found it bobbing 
  at the harbour wall and went out to get them.  In any case, it 
  couldn't have been a good start to the day. Further, they'd spent 
  the previous day and a half driving randomly around England (or the
  south anyway).  I have no clear idea where they ended up or how far
  they were from home...and I'm not sure Vernon had any better idea.

  I'm sure they could have gotten home in good time once they pulled 
  themselves together.  And Harry's train wasn't until late afternoon.
  But in any case, as we now know a good deal more about the 
  importance of Harry spending time with the Dursleys, I find Hagrid's
  behavior a bit lackadaisical.  I wonder whether it was in fact - 
  wise - to trust Hagrid with something as important as that!

  Cheers,

  Eustace_Scrubb 


  





From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com  Sun Mar  7 04:31:37 2004
From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 04:31:37 -0000
Subject: Harry's type of girl (SHIP)
In-Reply-To: <c2e5hh+a9o5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2e8j9+h8ac@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92399

> <greatraven at h...> wrote:
<snip>

>Might not be 
> Hermione, Ginny or Luna, might not even be a character that we've 
> seen, but I think in the end that he ends up with someone.

Antosha:
I agree; I don't think we know who the girl will be, but I think there will be someone.
There's been too much talk in the books about who Harry's interested, and who's 
interested in him. I keep changing my mind about who it is--one of the usual suspects 
above, or someone altogether different. Personally, I'm thinking it would be nice for Harry 
to have to pursue Ginny, if even for a little bit; it's a bit Freudian (she's a red-head, like his 
mum), but some sort of pay-off for her adoration at the beginning would be nice...

Antosha, whose very fond of redheads, being married to one!






From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Sun Mar  7 04:35:47 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 07 Mar 2004 05:35:47 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon
Message-ID: <20040307043547.754682D2239@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 92400

> Tj here:  
>I must disagree.  When someone is fed once a day, a cold tin
> of soup (that he must share with his pet), and locked in his room only
> allowed out 2 times a day on bathroom breaks, When his only thought is
> that "He is more hungery NOW then before he had a mouth full of soup.
> IS starvation (slow and painful... death, 'cause ya can't live on
> that... tissue breaks down and you get sick and you die.) I know of
> FEWER prisons with stricker lock down rules.

You're right, referring to the CoS events.  I don't like Vernon as well, mind you, and I was not surprised when JKR dislike him most.
I guess it could have been a bit of fanfiction contamination for myslf, just in reverse. :) Many authors portrait him as an absolute monster, e.g. beating Harry to half-death etc. whereas his abuse is more of psychcal than physical way, as painful but harder to prove and sent to jail. He's too much of a coward and he's too "proper" to run into problems with Royal Society For Prevention Cruelty to Children. 
For example Harry is (on the long basis) not starved, but not fed well (except for CoS, that is). In GoF whole family goes on Dudley diet, and the abuse is again more psychological: Harry's quarter of grapefruit is smaller than Dudley's.
Ah, well. I'm afraid Vernon will not meet his punishment, unless JKR decides to go for really sweety happy end, which would be horrible.

Cheers, Viridis
________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Sun Mar  7 08:50:58 2004
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 08:50:58 -0000
Subject: Tom Riddle's Birth (Re: JKR Chat  "The Crucial ...")
In-Reply-To: <c2ea74+qtf3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2enpi+i6lm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92401

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" <stevejjen at e...> 
wrote:
<snip>
> I think what you're saying above is Riddle's mom may have suffered 
> and died, but not in an attempt to save her child, so somehow 
> the 'love sacrifice' turned on Tom? 
> 
> "I don't believe anybody was born evil, you will find out more 
about 
> the circumstances of his birth in the next book"---this basically 
> says to me that Voldemort's whole transfiguration from Tom Riddle, 
> orphan, to Voldemort the evil overlord, has its roots in something 
> around his birth. It could be a charm-gone-wrong like David 
> mentioned, or an actual curse upon Tom at birth. (That might negate 
> the Choice theory somewhat). Perhaps his mom didn't even die in 
> childbirth, but rejected him or even tried to kill him at birth and 
> Tom survived but was 'scarred' as well, the curse 'in his very 
> skin'. His AK bounced off baby Harry from the force of the love 
> sacrifice in Harry's very being, and sought out the skin of the 
> cursed Lord Voldemort instead.
> 

<snip>

JKR is clearly portraying Harry and Tom as very similar in their 
basic nature and temperament (outward appearance, talented, brave, 
ambitious, charismatic). However, who they become is (or will be) the 
opposite poles of good and evil. I'm wondering whether we shouldn't 
apply this basic opposition to their very beginning as babies. If 
Harry received the gift of love from his mother, maybe Tom received a 
gift of hate? 
What if his mother, before she died, did indeed cast some kind of 
protective charm on him, but it was based not on her love for him, 
but on her hatred of his father? 
If we see the magical as a metaphor for the psychological (this is 
clearly the case with the protection that a mother's love provides), 
it does happen in real life - parents raising their child to hate, 
almost base their whole personality, on a hatred of a betraying 
spouse. I think this fits better with the Good/Evil and Love as the 
Greatest Force scheme than with Tom's mother protecting him with her 
love.



Naama






From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com  Sun Mar  7 05:17:37 2004
From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 05:17:37 -0000
Subject: Tom Riddle's Birth (Re: JKR Chat  "The Crucial ...")
In-Reply-To: <c2ea74+qtf3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2eb9h+jmvn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92402

JKR said:

> "I don't believe anybody was born evil, you will find out more about 
> the circumstances of his birth in the next book"

I find the discussion quite fascinating; I do wish to point out that "the circumstances of his 
birth" may not mean the actual labor and delivery! "The circumstances of [one's] birth" is a 
turn of phrase often used to describe someone's background or upbringing.

However, Ms. Rowling certainly has been seeing childbirth up-close and personal recently, 
so it may indeed be the actual ACT of birth and not birth-as-upbringing that she has in 
mind....

Antosha, who loves the view from the fence....





From teshara at yahoo.com  Sun Mar  7 08:16:02 2004
From: teshara at yahoo.com (Chelle)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 08:16:02 -0000
Subject: Winky and Dobby
Message-ID: <c2elo2+qf8s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92403

I was just relistening to my GoF book on CD tonight when a line jumped
out at me.
When Harry meets up with Dobby in the kitchens for the first time and
talks to him about he and Winkys employment, Dobby says he found about
Winkys dismissal when he went to visit her.
Does this seem strange to anyone else? Dobby belonged to Lucius
Malfoy. Why would Crouch's elves have anything to do with the Malfoy
elves? Is there more to this?

~ Chelle





From erinellii at yahoo.com  Sun Mar  7 09:28:19 2004
From: erinellii at yahoo.com (Erin)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 09:28:19 -0000
Subject: Harry's type of girl (SHIP)
In-Reply-To: <1a0.215d887d.2d7ba9b4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <c2epvj+4ckg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92404

 

> Erin originally wrote:
> I think we can safely conclude that Harry is attracted to women 
with long black hair.  Padma Patil, anyone?

BrwNeil replied:
> And all these relationships with long dark haired women have been 
disastrous.   This might lead us to think that Harry has been looking 
at women based only on their physical attributes.  Perhaps he should 
be more concerned with the inner being.


Erin now says:

Yes, you're right, at least, the relationship with Cho was 
disastrous.  I'm not sure you could call the other two really 
relationships, but for sure they haven't gone well.  I don't like to 
think, however, that Harry is being punished by the author for 
looking at pretty girls.  I don't know that one can really help what 
turns one on at the physical level like that. And certainly Harry has 
no intention of getting involved with Bella, and he *knew* that going 
to the ball with Parvati was a bad idea, which was why he waited so 
long to ask, so he is clearly thinking at least a little bit about 
personality.  It would be nice if he could find love without having 
to resort to marrying a troll solely for personality, ya know?

But of course, that may be exactly what happens if he ends up, as 
someone else put it "seeing what was right in front of him the whole 
time" in Ginny or Hermione.

Erin






From greatelderone at yahoo.com  Sun Mar  7 10:46:09 2004
From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 10:46:09 -0000
Subject: Winky and Dobby
In-Reply-To: <c2elo2+qf8s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2euhh+a9gg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92405

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chelle" <teshara at y...> wrote:
> I was just relistening to my GoF book on CD tonight when a line 
jumped
> out at me.
> When Harry meets up with Dobby in the kitchens for the first time 
and
> talks to him about he and Winkys employment, Dobby says he found 
about
> Winkys dismissal when he went to visit her.
> Does this seem strange to anyone else? Dobby belonged to Lucius
> Malfoy. Why would Crouch's elves have anything to do with the Malfoy
> elves? Is there more to this?

Crouch is a rather important official in the ministry. No doubt Lucis 
or Crouch visited the other while bringing their elves like what 
happened in CoS with Dobby and Lucius.




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sun Mar  7 12:49:58 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 12:49:58 -0000
Subject: Stopper in Death
In-Reply-To: <20040306013253.55313c92.cora_dee@web.de>
Message-ID: <c2f5pm+u3hr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92406

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, cora_dee <cora_dee at w...> wrote:
 >snip<
> You all know Snape's Speech about the art of potion making. And 
you remember that line about "putting a stopper in death". 
> 
> Well ... let's play! If that's the special ability potion making 
offers to a master - whose death is Snape going to stopper? 
> 
> Harry? Dumbledore? Voldemort? Sirius? Anyone else's? 


Potioncat:
Welcome! I've read the other replies to this post, but came back to 
this one to reply myself.  Lots of good ideas out there!

I am working without my copy of SS and fighting movie contaminaion, 
but there are a few thoughts I have.

One of the goals of this beautiful speech was to make the point that 
potion making is magic.  There is a line something like, "no foolish 
wand waving, no silly incantations...many of you won't think this is 
magic..." When he goes on to say "I can teach you how to...bottle 
glory, brew fame...stopper death..."  So this line is to demonstate 
what a powerful, subtle magic potion making is. (Not that he finds 
wand waving foolish because we see him do that, or incantations 
silly, because we see him do that too.)

As for stoppering death...an antidote does that and that may be what 
he means.  In GoF he says he will make Harry test his antidote.  
Perhaps that was going to have a purpose beyond intimidating Harry. 
Harry is taken from class for some other reason (photos or wand 
testing) And I'd love to know if another student had to test his/her 
antidote. 

Also, this speech is the reason I still don't think Snape wants the 
DADA job.  It sounds like he loves potion making.  Just because he 
told Umbridge he'd applied for it, doesn't make it true. (Maybe I'm 
just being stubborn.)  

And, to me, this speech makes potion making sound like dark arts. 
(In a different thread, I found we don't all agree on what dark arts 
really is.) I wonder if Snape had something to do with that "potion" 
that restored LV in OoP? That is, years ago he experimented with it. 

The surprising thing, is given the amount of potions class time we 
see, we haven't really seen potions used very much. Maybe he'll 
teach Harry a concoction that will undo LV.

Potioncat (Who hopes if he does stopper death, it will be for 
someone in the Order.)



  





From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Sun Mar  7 09:58:22 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 07 Mar 2004 10:58:22 +0100
Subject: Winky and Dobby
Message-ID: <20040307095822.F107D2A649C@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 92407

Chelle wrote:
> When Harry meets up with Dobby in the kitchens for the first time and
> talks to him about he and Winkys employment, Dobby says he found about
> Winkys dismissal when he went to visit her.
> Does this seem strange to anyone else? Dobby belonged to Lucius
> Malfoy. Why would Crouch's elves have anything to do with the Malfoy
> elves? Is there more to this?

I see such possibilities:
1. He visited her after being set free. Why he wanted to visit her? They can far cousins or other relations - we know nothing about ways of elves "breeding", the fate of children etc. From Winky's words seems that at Chrouch household there was a dynasty of female elves. And what about male ones? Somebody had to cooperate producing the next generation.

2. Elves maintain their own social life to the large extent independent of their masters. So as long as elf is not expressly forbidden to visit such and such household, he may do it and will do it. Since they can "apparate" there is little thread of elf-kidnaping. Also Master's secrets are generally well protected by elf secrecy, so even if elf visits the "enemy" house he won't spill the beans. (Dobby is a weirdo, so he doesn't count).

Cheers, Viridis
________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!




From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Sun Mar  7 10:02:50 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 07 Mar 2004 11:02:50 +0100
Subject: Tom Riddle's Birth (Re: JKR Chat  "The Crucial ...")
Message-ID: <20040307100250.1FDB92A645E@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 92408

Naama: 
> What if Tom's mother, before she died, did indeed cast some kind of 
> protective charm on him, but it was based not on her love for him, 
> but on her hatred of his father? 

> If we see the magical as a metaphor for the psychological (this is 
> clearly the case with the protection that a mother's love provides), 
> it does happen in real life - parents raising their child to hate, 
> almost base their whole personality, on a hatred of a betraying 
> spouse.

That's one possibility of oposition: 
positive charm v. negative charm (love v. hatred)

The other one would be:
positive charm (metaphor of parentallove) v. lack thereof 

Both possibilities sound good on both, magical and metaphorical, planes.

Cheers, Viridis
________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!




From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Sun Mar  7 10:09:08 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 07 Mar 2004 11:09:08 +0100
Subject: Harry's 11th Birthday Return to Little Whinging
Message-ID: <20040307100908.0BB7C2A648D@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 92409

> Eustace_Scrubb again:
> 
> I agree with you.  But this again raises in my mind the question of 
> why Hagrid would have allowed Harry to travel alone from Paddington 
> to Little Whinging laden with Hedwig and all of his books and 
> supplies, with no idea whether the Dursleys would be home when he 
> got there--or whether they'd let him back in.
[snip]
> But in any case, as we now know a good deal more about the 
> importance of Harry spending time with the Dursleys, I find Hagrid's
> behavior a bit lackadaisical.  I wonder whether it was in fact - 
> wise - to trust Hagrid with something as important as that!

As McGonagall put it: "I'm not saying his heart isn't in the right place, but you can't pretend he is not careless."
In his defence can be said that he probably didn't know the nature of Dursley-Harry bond and there was no DE danger at the moment, after 10 years lull. Possibly he wouldn't do it after first Harry's year in the school

Cheers, Viridis
_______________________
Curiouser and curiouser!




From gawain at ofir.dk  Sun Mar  7 10:15:06 2004
From: gawain at ofir.dk (romerskesims)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 10:15:06 -0000
Subject: Winky and Dobby
In-Reply-To: <c2elo2+qf8s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2esna+h87b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92410

Chelle wrote:
> When Harry meets up with Dobby in the kitchens for the 
> first time and talks to him about he and Winkys employment, 
> Dobby says he found about Winkys dismissal when he went 
> to visit her.
> Does this seem strange to anyone else? Dobby belonged to 
> Lucius Malfoy. Why would Crouch's elves have anything to do 
> with the Malfoy elves? Is there more to this?

Dobby was released from the Malfoys in CoS, and then employed at 
Hogwarts. When Winky was dismissed by Crouch Sr., and Dobby went to 
visit her, he was either a Hogwarts elf, or an unemployed one (I 
don't remember exactly when Dobby was employed at Hogwarts). And 
when you think about how Lucius Malfoy gives money to charity and 
generally spends a lot of time in the Ministry, it would be natural 
for the house elves to meet each other. I mean, it is after all only 
old, wealthy pure blood families who have elves, so they have 
probably met somewhere before their releases.

Tine




From puju02 at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Mar  7 12:44:02 2004
From: puju02 at yahoo.co.uk (puju02)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 12:44:02 -0000
Subject: JKR chat--Snape the coward or the one left forever?
In-Reply-To: <c2dfg2+7t9c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2f5ei+ofh4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92411

Susan:
> And the only ways I could see that Snape would be 
> in a position to spy are:
> 3) he was the coward who DID take his punishment and was allowed 
> back in the fold;
> 
> The only other possibility I can imagine would be that he was 
> indeed the one Voldy believed was gone forever & who'd have to be 
> killed... 
> but that *somehow* [how?!?] he was given the chance to talk his way 
> out of it.

Puja:
Now that you put it this way, Susan, I think I get your point about 
calling Snape the coward (in the eyes of LV alone). LV, however 
doesn't strike me as someone who easily forgives. Especially as Snape 
had betrayed him much before his downfall (quote Dumbledore from the 
pensieve trial). But there maybe lies the genius of JKR and the plot 
for book 6 and 7 (hopefully 8th :-)) about what actually did Snape do 
or was he punished or forgiven by LV...




From gbannister10 at aol.com  Sun Mar  7 14:19:22 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 14:19:22 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat  "The Crucial and Central Question"
In-Reply-To: <c2e5vv+7id3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2fb1a+umjv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92412

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Deb" <DBoyken at a...> wrote:

Deb: 
> 2. I think he assigned Snape to teach occlumency (one) because he 
> didn't want to risk Voldemort knowing he cared about Harry, as he 
> told him, but also (two) I think he was hoping Snape & Harry might 
> find some common ground, something sympathetic in the other. 
> Dumbledore seems to be an optimist where human relationships are 
> concerned--he hoped that Snape and Sirius would put aside their 
> animosity--I think he's hoping that Harry and Snape will work 
> TOGETHER at some point. The fact that they hate each other so much 
> that Snape threw Harry out and Harry never thought to go to Snape 
> about his vision pretty much shows that THAT's not going to happen 
> any time soon, but I think Dumbledore is hoping!

Geoff:
I don't think that is a totally accurate reading of Harry's actions. 
Harry goes to try to see Professor McGonagall and finds she has been 
taken to St.Mungo's.

"He remained quite still, looking at Madam Pomfrey. Terror was rising 
inside him.
There was nobody left to tell. Dumbledore had gone, Hagrid had gone 
but he had always expected Professor McGonagall to be there, 
irascible and inflexible perhaps, but always dependably, solidly 
present....."

(OOTP "Out of the Fire" p.644 UK edition)

So he tries to contact Sirius via Umbridge's fire and they are 
caught. Let's continue.....

"(Umbridge speaking) 'Draco - fetch Professor Snape.'
Malfoy stowed Harry's wand inside his robes and left the room 
smirking but Harry hardly noticed. He had just realised something: he 
could not believe he had been so stupid as to forget it. He had 
thought that all the members of the Order, all those who could help 
him save Sirius were gone - but he had been wrong. There was still a 
member of the Order of the Phoenix at Hogwarts - Snape."

(same chapter p.655)

It was not animosity that kept him away from Snape; it was pure 
forgetfulness. Perhaps Snape is not the sort of person who pops into 
Harry's mind naturally but we do see that, up to that point, he had 
thought himself alone.




From tcyhunt at earthlink.net  Sun Mar  7 14:37:23 2004
From: tcyhunt at earthlink.net (Tracy Hunt)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 14:37:23 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat  "The Crucial and Central Question"
In-Reply-To: <c2dc9c+afbq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2fc33+li19@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92413

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:

> As to how much he can see - well, that's up for grabs. As a *very*
> rough analogy, and I'm by no means offering this as an hypothesis,
> it's  as if he has knowledge of a series of events, each a marker 
> post  along the route that must be taken. 
<snip>
> This is where I start getting disgruntled. This is the point where 
those time loop horrors could raise their ugly heads.


Tcy:

A thought just hit me (and as I so rarely catch them, I thought I'd 
share it).  A question that bothers me is *how* DD has this 
knowledge.  Perhaps DD met with Sibyll Trelawney because of his 
respect for her great-great grandmother, Cassandra.  What if his 
respect for her is because she is the one who imparted him with this 
knowledge?

I'm not sure what it means...but I know that I like this option much 
more than DD is TimeTravel!Ron.

Thoughts?




From jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net  Sun Mar  7 14:42:04 2004
From: jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net (Robert Jones)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 14:42:04 -0000
Subject: "die, ron, die"
In-Reply-To: <c2aqqq+cph8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2fcbs+dcvv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92414

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hitomi" 
<japanesesearcher at y...> wrote:
> I think she's just joking, because there is also this quote from 
an 
> interview in Time Magazine:
> 
> "It's great to hear feedback from the kids. Mostly they are really 
> worried about Ron. As if I'm going to kill Harry's best friend. 
What 
> I find interesting is only once has anyone said to me, "Don't kill 
> Hermione," and that was after a reading when I said no one's ever 
> worried about her. Another kid said, "Yeah, well, she's bound to 
get 
> through O.K." They see her as someone who is not vulnerable, but I 
> see her as someone who does have quite a lot of vulnerability in 
her 
> personality. Hermione is me, near enough. A caricature of me when 
I 
> was younger. I wasn't that clever. But I was that annoying on 
> occasion. Girls are very tolerant of her because she is not an 
> uncommon female type--the little girl who feels plain and hugely 
> compensates by working very hard and wanting to get everything 
just 
> so."
> 
> So, no, I don't think JKR will be cruel enough to take out Ron, 
> especially considering Harry's reaction when he sees the boggart 
as 
> a dead Ron in the Black Manor (when Molly is trying to get rid of 
> it).
> 
> Anyway, there's my opinion. ;)
> 
> ~ Hitomi

Bobby: I hope JKR was just kidding, but why did she move from an 
unambiguous statement to an ambiguous one?  I hope Ron lives but I 
still have my doubts.  (And as for Harry's reaction: of course JKR 
is going to have him stunned by Ron's death.)




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Mar  7 16:02:27 2004
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 7 Mar 2004 16:02:27 -0000
Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat 
Message-ID: <1078675347.25.78566.m7@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92415


We would like to remind you of this upcoming event.

Weekly Chat 

Date: Sunday, March 7, 2004 
Time: 11:00AM - 7:00PM CST (GMT-06:00) 

Hi everyone! 

Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern, 7
pm UK time.  *Chat times are not changing for Daylight
Saving/Summer Time.* Chat generally goes on for about 5 hours,
but can last as long as people want it to last.

Go into any Yahoo chat room and type /join HP:1 
For further info, see the Humongous BigFile, section 3.3.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/hbfile.html#33

Hope to see you there!  
 

 





From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Sun Mar  7 18:05:04 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 18:05:04 -0000
Subject: JKR chat--Snape the coward or the one left forever?
In-Reply-To: <c2f5ei+ofh4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2fo8g+vl08@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92416

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "puju02" <puju02 at y...> wrote:
> Susan:
> > And the only ways I could see that Snape would be 
> > in a position to spy are:
<snip>
> > 3) he was the coward who DID take his punishment and was allowed 
> > back in the fold;
> > 
> > The only other possibility I can imagine would be that he was 
> > indeed the one Voldy believed was gone forever & who'd have to 
be 
> > killed... 
> > but that *somehow* [how?!?] he was given the chance to talk his 
way 
> > out of it.
> 
> Puja:
> Now that you put it this way, Susan, I think I get your point 
about 
> calling Snape the coward (in the eyes of LV alone). LV, however 
> doesn't strike me as someone who easily forgives. Especially as 
Snape 
> had betrayed him much before his downfall (quote Dumbledore from 
the 
> pensieve trial). But there maybe lies the genius of JKR and the 
plot 
> for book 6 and 7 (hopefully 8th :-)) about what actually did Snape 
do 
> or was he punished or forgiven by LV...

Susan:
Right, Puja, I agree that Voldy doesn't seem like one who easily 
forgives.  I think *that* is why I suggested Snape might be the one 
who was seen (by Voldy) as the coward, to be PUNISHED, rather than 
as the one who left for good, to be KILLED.  I think if Voldy was 
going to be convinced to actually listen to an explanation, it would 
be more likely from the one he planned to punish, rather than from 
the one he planned to kill.  Does that make sense?

I'm still open to LOTS of possibilities on the three missing DEs; I 
was just trying to argue one rationale for Snape as coward....

Siriusly Snapey Susan






From lhuntley at fandm.edu  Sun Mar  7 18:57:09 2004
From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 13:57:09 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's type of girl (SHIP)
In-Reply-To: <c2df7b+b861@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3C956FFC-7069-11D8-BC58-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 92417

Laura (me):
>> Well, technically, Harry has showed ZERO amount of interest in
>> Ginny Weasley (or anyone else except Cho).

Erin:
> This statement, one which is probably articulated a few dozen times
> each week on this group, for some reason caught my eye today.
> Perhaps it was the "technically".
>
> Because, technically speaking, it's just not true at all.  Harry has,
> by my count, shown interest in 3 members of the opposite sex.  And if
> you put all three of them together, it becomes clear that Harry has a
> preference for a certain physical type of female.

Well, I guess I wasn't really being clear enough.  By "interest" I was 
speaking of more than just a passing thought that a female was "pretty" 
or "striking" -- I meant an active desire on Harry's part to have a 
relationship with someone.  By your criteria, we could say he's shown 
interest in Hermione.  He *did* think she was "pretty" during the Yule 
Ball (even if he didn't recognize her at first).

Erin:
> I'm not a shipper.  I could care less if Harry ends up with Ginny or
> with, say, Draco.

Long live H/D!! *silly smile*  Just kidding.

Erin:
<SNIP>
> Let's look at the three Harry has had any sort of reaction to.
> 1. First, of course, there's Cho.  I don't think I need to say too
> much about her.  But she's mostly described as a very pretty girl
> with long black hair.
> 2. And next we have Parvati Patil, whom Harry took to the Yule Ball.
> Yes, yes, I know that Harry only asked her because he couldn't get
> Cho, but even so, he made a deliberate choice in doing so.  Let's
> examine the scene where he asks her to the ball.
<SNIP>
> Erin:
> Notice that although Harry sees both Parvati and Lavender come into
> the common room, Parvati is the one Harry chooses to ask.  And how is
> Parvarti described?  Also as a pretty girl with long dark hair.
<SNIP>
> 3.  Bellatrix Lestrange.  Although Harry currently hates her for
> killing Sirius, I think most people will conceed that his previous
> feelings were somewhat... conflicted.  Harry seemed almost fascinated
> with her, like a bird with a snake.
> And, (surprise, surprise!) Bella is *also* described as having long
> dark hair.
> I think we can safely conclude that Harry is attracted to women with
> long black hair.  Padma Patil, anyone?

I disagree with the assertion that Harry thought anything of Pavarti 
and Bellatrix other than that they were physically attractive, which he 
also has thought about Hermione and Fleur (these are just the examples 
I could think of off the top of my head).  However, I'll give you that 
you may be on to something about the long, dark hair -- I mean, he was 
*really* attached to Sirius, wasn't he? ^_~

Laura




From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Sun Mar  7 19:18:41 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 19:18:41 -0000
Subject: Harry's 11th Birthday Return to Little Whinging (Was Re: Mea Culpa!)
In-Reply-To: <c2e7s4+37on@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2fsih+8rte@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92418

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eustace_Scrubb" <dk59us at y...> 
wrote:
> Eustace_Scrubb asked:
>  4) Is Harry as safe in the yard as he is in the house?
> 
Sue answered: 
I think not.  Every note he recieves in OotP tells him to *stay in 
the house* (emphasis Sirius and Mr. Weasley).  Since the end of
OotP, I have felt this puts Petunia's "go to your room!" in a whole 
new light. 
Sue
 
Eustace_Scrubb again:
 
I agree with you.  But this again raises in my mind the question of 
why Hagrid would have allowed Harry to travel alone from Paddington 
to Little Whinging....

snip of lots of good points 

I wonder whether it was in fact - 
wise - to trust Hagrid with something as important as that!
 
Cheers,
 
Eustace_Scrubb

And Sue Responds:
Especially since Grawp, I have less patience with Hagrid's 
eccentricities, but I think the answer lies in the events of OotP and 
in the beginning of PS/SS.  Someone *always* knows where Harry is.  
In the beginning they know where he is sleeping, they even know 
within a few hours when he  is moved upstairs.  In OotP, Harry is 
followed constantly.  I doubt Harry was truly alone on the train.  It 
would have even been easier at that time because he did not know 
anyone but Hagrid in the WW.  Anyone could have put on Muggle clothes 
and sat right behind him.

As far as the Dursleys are concerned, I am sure DD knew when they got 
home and if there had been a delay Mrs. Figg would have been waiting 
for Harry.  By the way, who knows who the toothless boat man was 
anyway?

Sue




From lhuntley at fandm.edu  Sun Mar  7 19:28:17 2004
From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 14:28:17 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR Chat  "The Crucial and Central Question"
In-Reply-To: <c2ea4p+cjcu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <95CA7130-706D-11D8-BC58-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 92419

Laura (me):
>> And I don't know if it could technically be said that there was all
>> that much to do  in the underground movement department, at least 
>> after
>> the first couple years or so, as the DE's were pretty much subdued by
>> that time and Voldy was kinda incorporeal.

greatelderone:
> I think it could be said that the DEs were more terrible once
> Voldemort was removed. Without him as their leader and with a power
> vaccuum, they could become far more terrible than Voldemort ever was.
> Remember what happened to the Longbottoms.

That's why I specified "after a couple years".  Actually, I think it 
probably took much less time than that for the DE problem to be 
contained.  As far as I can tell, the really fanatical DE's (like 
Bellatrix, for example) did their bits close after Voldy was defeated 
and were quite rapidly rounded up and thrown into Azkaban.  As for the 
others -- the smart ones (like Lucius) and the dumb follower types 
(like Crabbe and Goyle) were all busy trying v. hard to pretend they 
never had anything to do with Voldemort.

The Wizarding World that Harry enters at eleven is *not* one that has 
been terrorized by periodic DE attacks for the past ten years.  In 
contrast, most wizards are convinced that the threat is gone.  Nothing 
like what occurred at the Quidditch World Cup has happened in a *long* 
time.  The Dark Mark hasn't been seen in nearly ten years.  This is 
because the DE's *weren't* out there continuing Voldy's noble work.  
They were hiding their asses and going on with their lives.  That's why 
the big man was so . . . erm, *disappointed* with the lot of them when 
he got his body back in GoF.

Laura:
>> Well . . . can Sirius *really* be considered an asset in OotP?

greatelderone:
> Yes. He may not be the most powerful wizard, but I'm willing to bet
> that he still has quite a lot of power. After all becoming an
> animagus imo takes a lot of skill and power.

Oh, I think he's a v. powerful wizard.  That's not the issue at all.

Laura:
>> He's
>> impetuous, irrational, and spoiling for a fight

greatelderone:
> Good for a war wouldn't you say?

No, that's good for a bar brawl.  Sirius is *not* a good soldier in the 
kind of war Dumbledore is trying to fight.  The OotP is not a barbarian 
horde, and it's no good for them to try to fight like one.

Laura:
>> -- not to mention he's 
>> a bad influence on Harry (keeps trying to get him to do inadvisable
>> things).

greatelderone:
> So is Ron. Aside from this if I were Dumbledore killing Lupin would
> have worked better. Fellow's a werewolf and the weakest of the
> original four(in mind) aside from Wormtail. Plus he didn't even tell
> Dumbledore that James, Sirus and Pettigrew were animagi when he had
> the chance.

Hey.  I never said that Dumbledore killed Sirius.  Are you even reading 
what I'm writing?  Anyway, Lupin *is* a good role model.  He *knows* 
how the OotP has to operate in order to win the war, and he's *good* at 
explaining it to Sirius and the kids.  He's levelheaded, fair-minded, 
and a v. good guy as far as we can see, despite the fact that he has 
made some bad choices (who hasn't?).

Also, what makes you think he was the weakest of the Marauders?

Laura:
>> *And* he can't leave the headquarters (except that he does
>> anyway, which just causes more trouble).

greatelderone:
> Don't think so short term. Sirus would still be very useful in the
> long term especially when the battles starting happening. Right now
> when it's a secret war, Sirus wouldn't be of much use, but his use
> would increase once Voldemort starts striking out with his army.

But *now* (or, that is, when OotP occurred) he was in a position to 
jeopardize the entire mission and getting agitated enough to actually 
do it.  As for his usefulness in a fight -- remember how he died?  The 
man was out of control.  I'm all for enjoying yourself in a fight, but 
he was so busy laughing and yelling insults at Bellatrix that he wasn't 
paying attention to the fact that she was trying to *kill* him.

I'm not saying that he couldn't have been an asset in the war -- just 
that Dumbledore didn't know how to harness his energy properly.

Laura:
>> Again, I'm not saying that Dumbledore is *bad* or unethical or
>> anything, just that he's pulling Harry's strings for the greater good
>> and I think he's gonna get burned for it.
>
> I think Dumbledore is obviously trying to make look out both for the
> wizard world and Harry. Remember what he said that he was unwilling
> to tell him the prophecy in PoA and CoS because he wanted Harry to be
> happy? He obviously cares for the kid as a person not just as a
> warrior or a champion.

Like I've said in every email I've written on this topic, I *do* think 
Dumbledore truly cares for Harry.  However, the example you just gave 
only serves to prove my point.  Dumbledore *knows* that, ultimately, he 
*has* to put the fate of the wizarding world above Harry's well-being.  
Although I think he's already done things (such a sending Harry to the 
Dursleys) that he feels badly for, he does want to shield Harry as much 
as he can without endangering the rest of his people.

If you take a close look at what Dumbledore tells Harry at the end of 
OotP, you'll see this:  Dumbledore says he tried to protect Harry at 
the expense of his ability to fight against Voldemort; then he says 
that it was the wrong thing to do.

Laura




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sun Mar  7 19:47:16 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 19:47:16 -0000
Subject: JKR chat--Snape the coward or the one left forever?
In-Reply-To: <c2dfg2+7t9c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2fu84+ds48@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92420

After a lot of snipping of several posts:

Siriusly Snapey Susan wrote:
 
> The only other possibility I can imagine would be that he was 
indeed 
> the one Voldy believed was gone forever & who'd have to be 
killed... 
> but that *somehow* [how?!?] he was given the chance to talk his 
way 
> out of it.


I think JKR was having a lot of fun with this one.  She knew she 
would get one reaction the first time we read it and a different one 
after we finished the book!  She really fixed us when she said some 
of the fan sites had it right.  Of course, we all think she intended 
our own interpretation. (Whatever that might be.)

Honestly, it could go either way.  And we don't know if Karkaroff is 
hiding or has been killed.  We do know Snape is still alive.  We 
know he has contact with Malfoy.  So, either he was thought of as 
the coward and has been punished.  Or, he was the one LV said "I 
think has left us..."  The "I think" leaves room for doubt.  

It was Quirrel and Crouch who were in contact with LV, reporting on 
Snape  and they 
weren't the most reliable individuals.  With Snape speaking for 
himself, and Malfoy (possibly) in a position to vouch for him, he 
could have talked his way back into the fold.

But I even wonder if that has happened.  He didn't seem to know 
about the plans for the MoM, yet Malfoy was one of the leaders at 
the battle.  If he has gotten back in, he hasn't gotten very high.

Potioncat







From puju02 at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Mar  7 13:01:51 2004
From: puju02 at yahoo.co.uk (puju02)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 13:01:51 -0000
Subject: Crookshanks
Message-ID: <c2f6fv+38tl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92421

While everyone wonders who Crookshanks really is, I read in Fantastic 
Beasts...about Crookshanks being a kind of Kneazle. However, what is 
the secret of Crookshanks- whre did he come from? We all believe him 
to be an animagus of someone, but that's not the case. So what is the 
deal with him. has he anything to do with Harry's cat-loving squib 
neighbour- Mrs. Figg?
Just my thoughts. Would love to share your opinions.
-Puja





From littlefishy518 at att.net  Sun Mar  7 14:01:59 2004
From: littlefishy518 at att.net (PlushieFox)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 09:01:59 -0500
Subject: Harry's type of girl (SHIP)
References: <c2epvj+4ckg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00e701c4044c$f519c970$287d4d0c@yourm5d4u9r2uv>

No: HPFGUIDX 92422

BrwNeil replied:
> And all these relationships with long dark haired women have been 
disastrous.   This might lead us to think that Harry has been looking 
at women based only on their physical attributes.  Perhaps he should 
be more concerned with the inner being.

Erin said:

Yes, you're right, at least, the relationship with Cho was 
disastrous...

But of course, that may be exactly what happens if he ends up, as 
someone else put it "seeing what was right in front of him the whole 
time" in Ginny or Hermione.


Plush says:
All this is true.  I think almost everyone new the Cho thing wasn't going to work out.  I mean, even before JKR spelled it out for us, there was the Cedric situation.  And of couse, she's a "human hosepipe".  As you can tell, I don't really like Cho.  But anyway, what I really wanted to write about was Ginny (I like her, sorry).  I mean, it does seem that Harry and Ginny would be too obvious.  But what about Lily, Harry's mom?  Does anyone see the similarity between them?  Harry looks like James, of course, and Ginny looks like Lily.  Red hair, green eyes.  Note: No one is sure of Gin's eye color.  It says (all in CoS)in the Spanish edition, her eyes are blue, on the audio tape it says green, and in the books, they're green.  I'm using this to my advantage, I guess.  And of course, she played a much bigger than usual part in OotP.  She was, as I put it, one of the three major-minor- characters, along with Neville and Luna.  Plus, the famous scene in the library, the fact that she plays great Qudditch, and Ron's line at the end of OotP, which we all know.  Well, I'm routing for Harry/Ginny.

Plush, stating her humble opinion

P.S. As I said before, I dislike Cho.  Once, I even had a dream that she was working for ol' Voldie.  Yes, I kow I'm insane.




From R.Vink2 at chello.nl  Sun Mar  7 15:40:40 2004
From: R.Vink2 at chello.nl (Renee)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 15:40:40 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat  "The Crucial and Central Question"
In-Reply-To: <c2ea4p+cjcu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2ffpo+7pb1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92423

Hello to all of you!

I'm a (relative) newbie: I've been a member of the list for some 
time now, but this is my first post, and though I read the first 
four HP books several years ago, I didn't become a fan until after 
OotP. 

I hope I'm not breaking any rules by barging in just like this, but 
I felt I had to react. 
 
<greatelderone at y...> wrote:
>if I were Dumbledore killing Lupin would 
> have worked better. Fellow's a werewolf and the weakest of the 
> original four(in mind) aside from Wormtail. 

It seems a bit premature to me to decide that Lupin is expendable or 
a liability before we know what kind of missions he was carrying out 
for the Order during Year 5. Also, killing Lupin because he's a 
werewolf would rather undermine the anti-discriminination theme 
running through the series. If DD were to rid himself of Lupin for 
that reason, wouldn't he be worse than Umbridge, and little better 
than Voldemort? 

The worst liability among the order members, IMO, is not Lupin (or 
Sirius, for that matter), but Mundungus Fletcher. If Harry hadn't 
been capable of summoning a Patronus - something Lupin taught him! - 
Dung's lack of vigilance would have had disastrous results. But all 
he gets is a scolding. Personally, I think the Order has too few 
members for any of them to be expendable, whether they're highly 
competent wizards/witches, or squibs like Arabella Figg. 

Finally, I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "weak in mind" - 
do you mean Lupin's not very competent as a wizard, or stupid, or 
that he doesn't have a strong personality?  

Renee



    


 






From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com  Sun Mar  7 17:55:16 2004
From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (Ms Mo Me)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 09:55:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Snape A vampire?
In-Reply-To: <1078600783.5261.86195.m18@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040307175516.92141.qmail@web13507.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92424

I have been reading some of the recent posts on the
theory that Snape is a Vampire.

Just based on how JKR writes her books, that is highly
unlikely.

Also, there was much controversy at letting a Werewolf
teach at Hogwarts because of his danger to others.  I
am sure there would be much the same controversy if
Snape was a vampire.  
He is not JUST a teacher, he is also the house leader
of Slytherin.  So, he has a little bit more
responsibility than most of the other teachers. 

Plus, vampires are supposed to be dead but living,
right?  So, there powers wouldn't be the same as a
full wizards, right?  Well, Snape has already proven
that he is a pretty well-versed and strong wizard. 
This makes it even MORE unlikely that he would be a
vampire.

Vampires also don't age.  We see Snape as a youth in
the pensieve and he was pretty much the same
personality/dress he is today.  I think his morose
look just goes along with his personality.  He
obviously has gotten older since then, but has
maintained the same characteristics.  Therefore,
again, I highly doubt he is a vampire.  



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster
http://search.yahoo.com




From quigonginger at yahoo.com  Sun Mar  7 20:13:25 2004
From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 20:13:25 -0000
Subject: Ron, Hermione and the Elves was Re: SHIP: Harry and Hermione
In-Reply-To: <c2e2ct+umgr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2fvp5+rpce@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92425

Pippin wrote: (re: SPEW)
> > She's (Hermione) been trying for two books now to convince him 
(Ron) that 
> > they would get used to freedom if they had it. Muggle thinking, 
of 
> > course.  

To which greatelderone responded:
> Which in the five books is proving to be more advanced than the 
> wizard's unless slavery, institutionalized torture, lack of due 
> process and legalized discrimination is your cup of tea. :)

(snipping some excellent stuff)
now Ginger:

Good points, both.  I think a lot of the contention between those who 
think the elves should be allowed to go on as they are and those who 
want them freed is the difference in the perception of elfish 
feelings.  

Those who want them to remain as they are see them as happy to be 
enslaved, with canon proving how badly they can take it if they're 
not.  (Dobby being the odd duck in the equation)  They see them as 
being fundamentally different from humans.  JKR herself says they 
have powers wizards don't, and don't have powers that wizards have. 
(World book day chat) 

Those who want them freed see them as being human in nature.  There 
really isn't any analogy in the human world that mirrors this.  Human 
slavery has been condemned, and for good reason.  Deep down, 
regardless of upbringing, race, gender or any other factor, we are 
all humans.  We in the US have it in our constitution that liberty is 
an inalienable right.  

But these are elves.  Do they think like we do?  Feel the way we do?  
It would be wrong of us to look down on them and say that they 
are "lesser" beings, but is it also wrong to force our own values on 
them?  That kind of implies that our values are of greater 
importance, or at least that we see ourselves as more enlightened.

History argues for both sides:  both against the attrocities of 
slavery and against the forcing of "enlightened" thought 
on "primatives".  Both have reached unhappy conclusions.  

What we need is elfin input.  Unless we understand how they are so 
darn happy working for no pay, no choice of apparel, no freedom, no 
recognition, sparse living quarters, and with a devotion that only 
they seem to understand, SPEW is about as senseless as Protestents 
starting a "Free the Nuns" movement.

There's got to be more to this whole thing, and only the elves (and 
JKR) know what it is.

Ginger, who thinks we should meet the elves half way and give freedom 
only to those who want it. 




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Sun Mar  7 20:22:47 2004
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 20:22:47 -0000
Subject: Need Quote: Help with Sirius's Motorcyle - Thanks
In-Reply-To: <c2e0jc+hh00@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2g0an+hpj0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92426

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:

> ...edited...
> In the USA edition of PS/SS (paraphrased) Hagrid said he needed to
> return Sirius's motorbike to him, BUT in the UK edition, it says that,
> roughly, Hagrid needed to put it away.
> 
> ...edited...
> 
> bboy_mn

bboy_mn:

PS (from Bloomsbery, 1997) - "Yeah," said Hagrid in a very muffled
voice. "I'd best get this bike away. ..."

SS (Scholastic, 1999) - "Yeah," said Hagrid in a very muffled voice. 
"I'll be takin' Sirius his bike back. ...."

Thanks for the help. I have to say things like this worry me. I can't
help wondering how and why these changes get made. Did the US
publisher make this decision on his own based on what he thought was a
 clarification, or did JKR approve the changes first? 

The real problem is that we really don't know what will be significant
in later books. So, a seemingly minor change now could possibly become
very significant later. This is after all a mystery, and until they
are revealed, we don't know what might be a clue. 

Anyway... thanks for the help.

bboy_mn






From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Sun Mar  7 20:47:00 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 20:47:00 -0000
Subject: JKR chat--Snape the coward or the one left forever?
In-Reply-To: <c2fu84+ds48@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2g1o4+l4lf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92427

> Siriusly Snapey Susan wrote:
> > The only other possibility I can imagine would be that he was 
> indeed 
> > the one Voldy believed was gone forever & who'd have to be 
> killed... 
> > but that *somehow* [how?!?] he was given the chance to talk his 
> way 
> > out of it.

Potioncat:
> I think JKR was having a lot of fun with this one.  She knew she 
> would get one reaction the first time we read it and a different 
one 
> after we finished the book!  She really fixed us when she said 
some 
> of the fan sites had it right.  Of course, we all think she 
intended 
> our own interpretation. (Whatever that might be.)
> 
> Honestly, it could go either way.  And we don't know if Karkaroff 
is 
> hiding or has been killed.  We do know Snape is still alive.  We 
> know he has contact with Malfoy.  So, either he was thought of as 
> the coward and has been punished.  Or, he was the one LV said "I 
> think has left us..."  The "I think" leaves room for doubt.  
> 
> It was Quirrel and Crouch who were in contact with LV, reporting 
on 
> Snape  and they 
> weren't the most reliable individuals.  With Snape speaking for 
> himself, and Malfoy (possibly) in a position to vouch for him, he 
> could have talked his way back into the fold.
> 
> But I even wonder if that has happened.  He didn't seem to know 
> about the plans for the MoM, yet Malfoy was one of the leaders at 
> the battle.  If he has gotten back in, he hasn't gotten very high.

Susan:
I agree, Potioncat, both that JKR had a lot of fun w/ this one :-) 
and that we just still don't know anything for sure!  Keep in mind 
that the part of my post you snipped, above, was actually my "last 
resort" kind of explanation; I had listed three possibilities and 
then thrown this in as maybe a 4th.  But people seem to be able to 
argue *any* of the possibilities...and I think that's what likely 
makes JKR grin.

You're so right that her saying some of the fansites have gotten it 
right doesn't really do much to help.  With so many fansites & so 
many theories, we can't know which ones she's referring to!

Siriusly Snapey Susan...who's just looking forward to finding out 
the solution to this one *someday*.





From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Sun Mar  7 20:57:13 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 20:57:13 +0000
Subject: On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
Message-ID: <025B34C6-707A-11D8-8947-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92428

JKR dislikes Uncle Vernon? Can this be true?
Surely there's a mistake here somewhere.

Those of you that are regulars to the site are doubtless aware
that Kneasy is a tireless crusader on behalf of the victimised,
the down-trodden and those under the jackboot of the despot.

IMO Vernon is such a sufferer.
Time to take up the cudgels.

Has anyone ever considered the situation from Vernon's viewpoint?
If they have, I can't find it among the past posts (though that doesn't
mean a great deal; a Black Hole is just a sharp intake of breath
when compared to Yahoo!Mort). Even so, you'd think that there
would be a scattering of insightful posts giving support to the one
individual in the series that best represents our own cultural and
social values. Can't speak for those west of  the water, of course, they
will have to soul-search on their own behalf.

We  don't have fat dossier  on Vernon, just a few facts from which we
can base some reasonable suppositions. Family man, wife and one
child, works hard, probably at senior middle management level, sole
wage-earner in the household, lives in the suburbs, a conformist.

See any sign of a monster yet? Neither do I. Though to some that
word 'conformist' is as the cloven foot of the devil. You know the
type - they're the ones that pretend that phrases like "post-modern
irony" actually mean something.

We probably all have experiences of family fights. They tend to be
bitter and intractable, with the participants taking entrenched stances
and only too willing to find reasons to justify their obduracy. Well
surprise, surprise - guess what's happened in Petunia's family. She
and Lily are in just such a situation and this antagonism is passed on
to Vernon, possibly as part of her dowry.

Some claim that Petunia (and by extension Vernon) are exhibiting
some species of jealousy or envy; I don't agree, it's fear. They are
frightened of  magic, it's practitioners and what it can do. Strange
people can change the natural order of the world by muttering and
waving a bit of wood around. Performing cute tricks that may be
entertaining for on the surface, but the implications are terrifying -
there is no such thing as safety and security when a wizard is around.
The Dursleys are only too glad to get away from these horrible freaks
as soon as possible.

All well and good. Young Dudders appears on the scene. Everything
in the garden is lovely and then  - calamity. A bundle on the door-step
one night with a covering letter. Just what the letter said we don't 
know,
but you can bet your boots the Dursley's hearts sank into theirs.

A cuckoo child, foisted on to them by those they most fear. "Look after
him." -  was the additional phrase "or else" plainly stated or just 
implied?
Naturally Harry is not welcome and with his presence their fear returns;
is he going to be like his parents, showing powers that the Dursleys do
not comprehend and so dread? Historically witches and wizards have
had a bad press, they have more or less entered the folk memory as a
bad thing; religious doctrine is even more specific, yet  here they are
with a nightmare under the stairs. A most unwelcome guest.

They give Harry a hard time, well, fairly hard, it's not as if he's 
thrashed
thrice weekly. An old instinct to try to drive out evil by imposing 
virtue?
"Best pretend we know nothing about it" is the attitude they take - 
"with
luck he may not be a changeling after all, and if we forbid all 
references
to this horror perhaps it won't show itself." But one day their hopes 
come
crashing down,  felled by  the weight of a letter through the 
letter-box.

First option -  denial. Nobody seems to have considered that Vernon's
actions might be motivated by concern for Harry. If he had said  "Fine,
off you go to that Hogwarts place, get out and don't  come back" what
would Vernon have lost? Nothing, in fact he might have gained some
peace of mind. "Got rid of the little tyke at last!" But no, he goes to 
great
lengths to save Harry from this aberrant fate and is mocked for doing 
so.

Vernon is by no means a 'nice' man; he's pompous, self-opinionated, a
bully (though he would probably call himself 'blunt-speaking') and not
given to introspection, but he is not evil. He doesn't like Harry and 
is not
hypocritical enough to pretend otherwise, but Harry does live under his
roof and his personal moral code requires him to protect Harry from what
he considers  to be dangers. Hence the reaction to the letters. He 
blusters
and calls magic nonsense, tells Harry to forget it, and live a normal 
life.
Why? Because he saw what  happened to someone who did join the
WW; they were murdered. Like Harry or not, that makes it unacceptable.
  In return, threats. What can he do? It's not as if he could go and 
complain
to someone, who would believe him?
"My nephew is a wizard and his friends have threatened to put a spell
on me."
"Oh  yes, sir? Just breathe into this bag would you sir? George, call 
the
duty psychiatrist, will you?"

I  feel sorry for Vernon, for all  his faults. He's stuck in a horror 
story and
can do absolutely nothing about it. He's pitiable and pitiful, yet JKR 
rates
him as the one she dislikes most in the series.
Doesn't seem fair somehow.

Maybe she's got him lined up to do something really dastardly in the
next book and that's  what she's based her assessment on. That could
do it.

Kneasy




From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Sun Mar  7 21:08:20 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 21:08:20 -0000
Subject: JKR chat--Snape the coward or the one left forever?
In-Reply-To: <c2fu84+ds48@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2g304+tm90@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92429

Snip of Susan's post and beginning of Potioncat's
About Snape: 
> But I even wonder if that has happened.  He didn't seem to know 
> about the plans for the MoM, yet Malfoy was one of the leaders at 
> the battle.  If he has gotten back in, he hasn't gotten very high.
> 
> Potioncat

This one really bothers me. Do all the DE's have the Darkmark?  When 
I read GoF, I assumed there would have had to be more DEs than in the 
graveyard and making that conculusion, I decided it was only 
his "inner circle" of DEs who had it.  

The big question to me is why is Snape still alive.  He is too smart 
to just be running around for Lucius Malfoy while Crabb and Goyle are 
showing up at important events like the MoM.  If Snape is really a 
DE, he would have had to know what means Voldemort was going to use 
to get Harry to the MoM.  Why not just TELL Harry what was coming.  
We know DD can't have contact with Harry but they both knew what 
Voldemort was trying to do and IMVHO Snape knew *exactly* what vision 
Voldemort was going to use.  *Especially* if he really is "Malfoy's 
lap dog".

We know Snape is powerful and smart.  We also know Voldemort is 
extremely powerful and brilliant.  The way I see it there are only 
two possibilities: 
1. Snape is very close to Voldemort and DD is a fool where he is 
concerned.  He is doing a "job" for Voldemort that will allow him 
access in and the ability to take over Hogwarts when he is ready.

2. Snape is indeed working for the Order, Voldemort knows this and is 
setting something up which will be the end of the Order and Snape.  
IOW Snape is nothing more than a pawn.

If the first is true, I can just hear the conversation after the MoM 
was over.  "But my Lord, I didn't notify anyone in the Order until 
there had been ample time for Lucius and the others to take the orb 
from 6 under age wizards. I watched them leave the forest and 
notified Lucius *immediately* even telling him exactly how many were 
coming and what their talents are.  What else could I do?  I kept DD 
away as long as possible.  I even tried to get Sirius to stay behind!"

If the second is true, Snape will have to know this after OotP.  Why 
wasn't he informed?  He could have helped get Harry there without the 
entanglements of other Order members. Obviously, The Dark Lord 
doesn't trust Severus Snape.

I'm not a Snape lover and the first scenario seems a whole lot more 
realistic to me given Snape and Lord V's characters.  Voldemort would 
not keep anyone around he doubted unless that person was useful in 
some way and I can't imagine Snape putting up with being below Crabb 
or Goyle on any totem pole.

The whole thing gets even more convoluted when you throw DD's trust 
of Snape into the mix.   Why didn't Snape know what was happening?  
Why did it take so long for the Order members to get there if Snape 
was not deliberately stalling to give the DE's enough time.  How can 
he be a "double" agent if he isn't able to help head off a *huge* 
problem?  Or if he doesn't know what is going on?

What is the story with Severus Snape?! (Sue screams loudly at her 
computer).  I just don't get it.

Someone help me...Carol? Susan? Potioncat? Anyone?

Sue, who apologizes for the length of this post.




From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Sun Mar  7 21:18:07 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 21:18:07 -0000
Subject: Harry's type of girl (SHIP)
In-Reply-To: <00e701c4044c$f519c970$287d4d0c@yourm5d4u9r2uv>
Message-ID: <c2g3if+slqr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92430

snip
> Plush says:
>snip
Ginny looks like Lily.  Red hair, green eyes.  Note: No one is sure 
of Gin's eye color.  It says (all in CoS)in the Spanish edition, her 
eyes are blue, on the audio tape it says green, and in the books, 
they're green.  
snip

Just to add to the confusion: 
"On the third landing, a door stood ajar.  harry just caught sight of 
a pair of bright brown eyes staring at him before it closed with a 
snap.
    "Ginny" said Ron." COS US paperback edition pg. 40.  

Personally, I always envision Ginny with light eyes myself.  I wonder 
why all the confusion.  Any 1st edition English copies of Chamber of 
Secrets out there?

Sue




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Sun Mar  7 21:47:41 2004
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 21:47:41 -0000
Subject: JKR chat--Snape the coward or the one left forever?
In-Reply-To: <c2fu84+ds48@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2g59t+tua6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92431

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at m...>
wrote:
> 
> I think JKR was having a lot of fun with this one.  She knew she 
> would get one reaction the first time we read it and a different one 
> after we finished the book!  She really fixed us when she said some 
> of the fan sites had it right.  Of course, we all think she intended 
> our own interpretation. (Whatever that might be.)
> 
> Honestly, it could go either way.  And we don't know if Karkaroff is 
> hiding or has been killed.  We do know Snape is still alive.  We 
> know he has contact with Malfoy.  So, either he was thought of as 
> the coward and has been punished.  Or, he was the one LV said "I 
> think has left us..."  The "I think" leaves room for doubt.  
> 
> ...edited...
> 
> Potioncat

bboy_mn:

Let's establish some reference points-

The question that was asked-

HarriFreak: Who is the 'one that never will return' deatheater? 

JK Rowling replies -> You have to work it out, but a lot of fansites
have got it right.

My first complaint is that who ever asked the question, asked it
wrong. They paraphrased the book rather than quoting it. If you want
an accurate answer, you have to ask an accurate question.

What the book actually says- (GoF Am Ed HB Pg 651)

"And here we have six missing Death Eaters... three dead in my
service. One, too cowardly to return... he will pay. One, who I
BELIEVE has left me forever... he will be killed, of course. ...and
one, who remains my most faithful servant, and who has already
reentered my service."

For each of the items listed, there are several possible suspects, but
I think we are wiser to look at the most likely and logical suspects.

"One, too cowardly to return..."

We see no evidence that anyone has ever considered Snape cowardly. Of
course, one could say the Snape was afraid to return to Voldemort, but
when Dumbledore sends him off near the end of the book, Snape goes
without hesitation. 

Even if we look at Snape through Voldemort's eyes, it's difficult to
see him as a coward. Karkaroff, on the other hand, struck me very much
as a coward. He sold out other DE's to save himself. While Snape is
aware and calm, Karkaroff is very freak out and nervous about the
return of the Dark Mark on his arm. All hints, clues, and subtext
including Karkaroff's flight as soon as the Dark Mark burns on his arm
mark him as the coward in my book.


"One, who I BELIEVE has left me forever..." 

Snape is living and working with Dumbledore, and has been doing so
since Voldemort's downfall. There is every indication that he has had
no further involvement in the Dark Arts. Indeed to all, he appears to
be a reformed DE, and therefore, he seems the most likely to have
'left ME forever'. The implication is that Snape has gone from the
'Dark' to the 'light'.

Karkaroff, on the other hand, has fled, but he has not abandon the
Dark Art. He ratted out some of his fellow DE's to save his own skin,
then ran away when Voldemort returned. That doesn't sound like 'left
ME forever'. While possible, that seems a very odd choice of words to
describe what Karkaroff did. 

I want to point out another thing, Voldemort used the word 'believe',
it's open to interpretation but, to me, that indicated and element of
doubt. Very much the same as saying, 'One, who I think might have left
me forever'. This element of doubt leave an opening for Snape to
return to Voldemort with a good explanation and Malfoy to vouch for
him, and stand a chance of being taken back into the DE's.

I firmly believe that Voldemort sent Snape to Dumbledore to become a
spy. Snape arrives at Dumbledore's with apparently valuable
information that Voldemort has allowed Snape to reveal. This gets
Snape in with the good side so he can spy for Voldemort.

This explains a lot. It explains Voldemort's element of uncertainly
because it's unclear whether Snape has left, or whether he is just
doing the job Voldemort sent him to do. It explains how Snape could
have given all appearances of a trator to the cause, yet still manages
to associate comfortably with DE after Voldemort is vanquished. And,
most important of all, it allows Snape a way back into the DE's now
that Voldemort has returned. All Snape has to do is convince Voldemort
that his true allegiance hasn't wavered; that all he was doing is
playing his role of a spy. 

Of course, very soon after being sent by Voldemort to join Dumbledore,
Snape really does see how hopeless and pointless it is to support
Voldemort. So, he truly does join Dumbledore's side. This really gives
Dumbledore his most perfect spy, a spy that has free and open access
to both sides. 


"...one, who remains my most faithful servant, who has already
reentered my service."

We could speculate that this could refer to several people. Perhaps,
it refers to Bagman, who we know was once suspected of being a Death
Eater. But consider how minor Bagman's role is compared to Crouch
Jr's. Throughout the story and at it's resolution, Bagman's focus is
completely goblins, gold, and gambling. 

On the other hand Voldemort has gone to great lengths to get Crouch Jr
onto the Hogwarts grounds and working on his behalf. Considering what
a major player Crouch Jr is in the story, I don't see how this could
refer to anyone other than him. True, it's possible it refers to
someone else, but while possible, I find it highly unlikely.

So, based on how they are portrayed in the story, logic leads me to
the most LIKELY conclusion-

Coward - KarKaroff ... because we know he is, and we know Snape is not.

One who left ME - Snape ... Without evidence or assurance, Voldemort
assumes that Snape has left his service. With evidence and Malfoy
vouching for him, Snape has a way back in.

faithful servant - Crouch Jr ... how could it be anyone but Crouch Jr?
Given the strength of his role and his own statement during his
confession, it must be Crouch Jr.

Yes, other interpretations are POSSIBLE, but are they LIKELY?

Just a thought.

bboy_mn







From anne_conda at web.de  Sun Mar  7 21:03:52 2004
From: anne_conda at web.de (Anne)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 21:03:52 -0000
Subject: numerology-ing the new middle names and a bit of SHIP
Message-ID: <c2g2no+rtg6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92432

Just a short reference (well, I sincerely hope I can do this short 
and to the point, but frankly I doubt it) to the freshly- exposed 
middle names of Ginny (Molly), Ron (Bilius) and Hermione (Jane 
 as a 
homage to Jane Austen?).
As I am somewhat into Numerology (which is kind of schizophrenic 
since I am utterly liberated of any spiritual/ religious 
orientation) , I could not restrain myself computing those names, 
immediately.

It is very likely that I shamefully prove myself a mathematical 
Squib, but please feel free to check whether I got the sums all right:

1 = A, J, S
2 = B, K, T
3 = C, L, U
4 = D, M, V
5 = E, N, W
6 = F, O, X
7 = G, P, Y
8 = H, Q, Z
9 = I, R                     

.every letter in a name is assigned to a number. You will get the 
final number by addition of each names sum: forename + middle name + 
family name = number.


That made Ronald Weasley a number One,

Ginny Weasley a number Six and

Hermione Granger a number Four.

Of course, the addition of their middle names changed the outcome. 
However, in Numerology the influence of your fore- and family name 
will always be the most ruling, whereas your full name is some sort 
of course you are heading to.

So Ron, Ginny and Hermione are mainly acting upon their pre- chat 
numbers:


ONE
 is known for being hot- tempered, physical, independent, 
straight, communicative, active, jealous, emotional, egocentric, 
hardly cooperative, incorrigible, material, attention- seeking, 
stubborn and dominant.
A pioneer or leader. A loner (the partner should accept this need for 
privacy and should not expect/ force too many similarities).

SIX
 is known for being good- natured, romantic, insecure (albeit 
acting self- conscious and independent), emotional, harmony- seeking, 
caring, jealous and domestic.
A perfect stay- at- home- parent (family is their greatest good) or 
artist, for many of them are perfect actors, dancers or musicians.

FOUR
 is known for being rational, insecure, earthy, emotionally cold 
(outwardly), manipulative, logical, material, practical, pedantic, 
responsible, intolerant,  loyal, dominant, hard- working (tendency to 
worka- holism) and stubborn.
A perfect organizer or bureaucrat/ politician (patriots, 
conservatives).


Which those middle names we have a better overview of where there're 
likely heading to.

Now both Ron and Ginny are a Two.

Hermione is a Seven. (me too)

In my opinion it is not accidental that both Weasleys are of the same 
number (my father, who is very similar to me -nah, you'd rather have 
it the other way around- shares the Seven with me, whereas my mum 
shares her number and character traits with her brother and mother; 
so maybe it happens that way in families).
By the way, black sheep Percy, the only other Weasley whose full name 
we know, is not of the same number: hint that he is indeed ex- 
Weasley- cated and will stay that way?

TWO
 is associated with action, intuition, duality, emotion (tendency 
to hurt persons verbally on purpose- they know where the weak points 
are and are aiming at them when they feel cornered by their 
opponents) and warmth. The two is peace- loving, humorous, insecure ( 
need to assure them, otherwise they draw back quickly), 
communicative, impulsive, reckless, straight, caring (love it to be 
needed), over- emotional and easily affected. A harmonic partnership 
is essential for them.

Before I move on with Seven I want to declare that I don't know 
whether Harrys full name IS Harry Potter or whether it is Harry JAMES 
Potter. I always felt that the last version was something of a 
extensively spread rumour. Surely the LOONs will help me out there.

It depends on Harrys middle name, whether he is a Five or Master 
Number Eleven. If there is indeed a "James" within Harrys full name 
he would live under Eleven's influence, but would end up as a fun- 
loving, good- natured, smart Five, which I think, could point towards 
a Happy Ending, but does not really go in tune with Harrys 
personality.

Now, as a H/Hr- shipper (did I hear groans? *wink*) from the very 
start it occurred me at once, that Harrys parents were a combination 
of Eleven (Lily Evans) and Seven (James Potter).

Maybe Hermione is going to be the Seven to Harrys Eleven?
Don't mind this fairly pathetic point too much:
my homepage is filled with more solid clues (Yes, dear Ms. Rowling, I 
do have enough clues by now!) : http://www.madam-puddifoot.hmmm-
lecker.com/ship.html albeit in German, since that is my mother tongue.

Though I wouldn't call this Numerology- hint (?)  too outlandish, 
since OoP bid a reference to that wonderfully pointless "science", 
when Harry gave Hermione a Numerology book for Christmas ( one 
wonders why Numerology had to appear in that coherence
).

You will find the Seven and Eleven clicking just fine, since both 
numbers biggest destiny is to fight for freedom, to get rid of evil, 
to help those in need. Both are incredibly idealistic- loyalty, 
honesty and spiritual love are their greatest goods. Both numbers are 
destined for serving the mankind.

The Seven particularly is very emotional (on the border to be 
dramatic
 they tend to take everything literally), intermeddling 
(with the best intentions at heart- great need to help), stubbornly 
(they need to find out things on their own and wouldn't listen to 
good advice), honest, social, helpful, communicative (though about 
their own achievement, views etc), insecure (though they appear 
confident and independent from the outside they need permanent 
recognition) and with a big sense for justice. The Seven is a 
spiritual number, whose destination is to help at big emotional costs.

The Eleven is very sensitive, tends to flee from trouble, is highly 
vulnerable (they take everything personal and draw back quickly; 
their defence are mean- willed verbal attacks),  empathizing (too 
much, sometimes), helpful, honest, harmony- seeking (a stable 
partnership serving them inner support is of big importance, but they 
would never admit that), reckless and humanitarian. Eleven is the 
number of Revelation, Enlightenment and of the martyrs- that's why it 
is a master number.

OUCH! 
rationalism kicks in and I am already feeling horribly ill 
posting something like this.

What do you think, is Numerology it's "?logy" worthy?

.annie still a bit jumpy because of all those would- be- revelations 
of JKR (simply love her for giving my obsession fresh fruits, at 
least it behaves whilst munching).






From american_sweetie_xoxo at yahoo.com  Sun Mar  7 21:44:05 2004
From: american_sweetie_xoxo at yahoo.com (american_sweetie_xoxo)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 21:44:05 -0000
Subject: Unanswered Questions
Message-ID: <c2g535+2kqm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92433

Ok I have read all the books and so far there are a few things I 
don't understand....
1.) Snape was a Death Eater (no big shock) The Dark Lord has 
attempted to kill or maime all the traitors, or they were sent to 
prison....so why is Snape still alive? I know Dumbledore trusts him 
and that's why he is working at Hogwarts and all that good stuff but 
why isn't the Dark Lord looking for Snape? How come he and Lucius are 
still buddy buddy even though Snape has turned his back against his 
Master??

2.) Ok so we all found out the history of the 4 houses in CoS..that 
there was a disagreement about letting "Muggles" into Hogwarts. We 
all know that passed and they are now permitted to join the 
school..What I don't understand is, who is the one who decided 
what "muggles" are worthy of such a education? How do 
these "Muggles" feel about knowing there is another world out there? 

Just a few little things I thought of after reading these book. Any 
theories will be great. Have a GREAT day!!!





From oreobb28 at yahoo.com  Sun Mar  7 18:15:56 2004
From: oreobb28 at yahoo.com (Cookie W.)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 10:15:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Winky and Dobby
In-Reply-To: <c2euhh+a9gg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040307181556.74933.qmail@web21401.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92434

or.... just as an idea, malfoy and crouch jr. were in the same pod because they are/were both DEs.


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search - Find what you?re looking for faster.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





From gbannister10 at aol.com  Sun Mar  7 22:23:19 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 22:23:19 -0000
Subject: On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
In-Reply-To: <025B34C6-707A-11D8-8947-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com>
Message-ID: <c2g7cn+bse1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92435

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Barry Arrowsmith 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:

Kneasy:
> JKR dislikes Uncle Vernon? Can this be true?
> Surely there's a mistake here somewhere.
> 
> Those of you that are regulars to the site are doubtless aware
> that Kneasy is a tireless crusader on behalf of the victimised,
> the down-trodden and those under the jackboot of the despot.
> 
> IMO Vernon is such a sufferer.
> Time to take up the cudgels. 

> Family man, wife and one
> child, works hard, probably at senior middle management level, sole
> wage-earner in the household, lives in the suburbs, a conformist.
> 
> See any sign of a monster yet? Neither do I. Though to some that
> word 'conformist' is as the cloven foot of the devil. You know the
> type - they're the ones that pretend that phrases like "post-modern
> irony" actually mean something.

> Some claim that Petunia (and by extension Vernon) are exhibiting
> some species of jealousy or envy; I don't agree, it's fear. They are
> frightened of  magic, it's practitioners and what it can do. 

<some snipping throughout>


Geoff: 
I agree completely. 

It's fear..... of the neighbours, of being odd, not the sort of 
people we invite round for coffee. 

The irony is that,because Harry is treated in the way he is -  
wearing Dudley's castoffs, glasses mended with Sellotape, looking 
uncared for - that he becomes part of the oddness with which the 
Dursleys do not want to be surrounded. They are creating their own 
banana skins.....



Kneasy: 
> They give Harry a hard time, well, fairly hard, it's not as if he's 
> thrashed
> thrice weekly. An old instinct to try to drive out evil by imposing 
> virtue?
> "Best pretend we know nothing about it" is the attitude they take - 
> "with
> luck he may not be a changeling after all, and if we forbid all 
> references
> to this horror perhaps it won't show itself." But one day their 
hopes 
> come
> crashing down,  felled by  the weight of a letter through the 
> letter-box.


Geoff:
But they obviously recognised the letter; Petunia's memory must have 
been long enough. And their reaction was not one of regard for Harry 
but of the need to protect themselves, their conformity and their 
reputation as "those nice Dursleys at number 4".

"'But what should we do, Vernon? Should we write back? Tell them we 
don't want -'
Harry could see Uncle Vernon's shiny black shoes pacing up and down 
the kitchen.
'No,' he said finally. "No, we'll ignore it. If they don't get an 
answer... yes, that's best.... we won't do anything...'
'But - ''
'I'm not having one in the house, Petunia! Didn't we swear when we 
took him in we'd stamp out that dangerous nonsense?'"

"PS "The Letters from No One" p.31 UK edition)

Stamping out. Sounds a bit violent. A good reaction for someone 
vicitmised, down-trodden and those under the jackboot of the despot? 
Sounds more like the person on the other end of the jackboot....


Kneasy: 
> First option -  denial. Nobody seems to have considered that 
Vernon's
> actions might be motivated by concern for Harry. If he had 
said  "Fine,
> off you go to that Hogwarts place, get out and don't  come back" 
what
> would Vernon have lost? Nothing, in fact he might have gained some
> peace of mind. "Got rid of the little tyke at last!" But no, he 
goes to 
> great
> lengths to save Harry from this aberrant fate and is mocked for 
doing 
> so.


Geoff:
"Uncle Vernon, still ashen-faced but looking very angry, moved into 
the firelight.
'He's not going' he said.
Hagrid grunted.
.....
'We swore when we took him in we'd put a stop to that rubbish,' said 
uncle Vernon, 'swore we'd stamp it out of him! Wizard, indeed!'
.....
(Petunia) 'Then she met that Potter at school and they left and got 
married and had you and of course I knew you'd be just the same, just 
as strange, just as - as -abnormal...'"

(PS "The Keeper of the Keys" pp.43-44 UK edition)

This doesn't look like saving Harry fom this abhorrent fate. Looks a 
bit more like the previously mentioned policy of not letting the 
neighbours think you are anything bother than a decent, respectable, 
middle-class suburban estate dweller.


Kneasy:
> Vernon is by no means a 'nice' man; he's pompous, self-opinionated, 
a
> bully (though he would probably call himself 'blunt-speaking') and 
not
> given to introspection, but he is not evil. He doesn't like Harry 
and 
> is not
> hypocritical enough to pretend otherwise, but Harry does live under 
his
> roof and his personal moral code requires him to protect Harry from 
what
> he considers  to be dangers. Hence the reaction to the letters. He 
> blusters
> and calls magic nonsense, tells Harry to forget it, and live a 
normal 
> life.


Geoff:
...and in so doing, open Harry to the continued real dangers of 
Stonewall High with its bullies who have picked on Harry and others 
similar throughout their Junior School careers. But, of course, he 
would doubtless say that a little roughing up at the secondary school 
would help turn Harry into a real man and not a wimp. After all he 
does possess the sensitivity of a high class pachyderm. But not 
evil...

"As Uncle Vernon delightedly told anyone who would listen, Dudley had 
recently become the Junior Heavyweight Inter-School Boxing Champion 
of the Southeast. 'The noble sport', as Uncle Vernon called it, had 
made Dudley even more formidable than he had seemed to Harry in their 
primary school days when he had served as Dudley's first punchball."

(OOTP "Dudley Demented" p.15 UK edition)

 I wonder what he'd do if Dudley suddenly decided to change things, 
do a "Billy Elliott" and become a dancer?




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Sun Mar  7 22:26:53 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 22:26:53 -0000
Subject: Snape's position
In-Reply-To: <c2g304+tm90@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2g7jd+7l6s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92436

Sue wrote:
> The big question to me is why is Snape still alive.  He is too 
> smart to just be running around for Lucius Malfoy while Crabb and 
> Goyle are showing up at important events like the MoM.  If Snape 
> is really a DE, he would have had to know what means Voldemort was 
> going to use to get Harry to the MoM.  Why not just TELL Harry 
> what was coming.  
<snip> 
> We know Snape is powerful and smart.  
<snip>
> The way I see it there are only two possibilities: 
> 1. Snape is very close to Voldemort and DD is a fool where he is 
> concerned.  He is doing a "job" for Voldemort that will allow him 
> access in and the ability to take over Hogwarts when he is ready.
> 
> 2. Snape is indeed working for the Order, Voldemort knows this and 
> is setting something up which will be the end of the Order and 
> Snape.  IOW Snape is nothing more than a pawn.
<snip> 
> Voldemort would not keep anyone around he doubted unless that 
> person was useful in some way and I can't imagine Snape putting up 
> with being below Crabb or Goyle on any totem pole.
<snip> 
> What is the story with Severus Snape?! (Sue screams loudly at her 
> computer).  I just don't get it. Someone help me...Carol? Susan? 
> Potioncat? Anyone?

Susan here, checking in.
Well, Sue, I do NOT know what the story is w/ Severus Snape any more 
than anybody else [and a lot less than many esteemed members of this 
list].  **For now** I am taking some things at face value [while 
some of those esteemed members are probably rolling their eyes at my 
naivete].  

Assumptions:
1) Snape really was a DE [well, that one's a fact]
2) Snape really did choose to leave Voldy before his downfall
3) Snape really is on the side of The Order
4) Snape really is spying on Voldy while having convinced Voldy he's 
spying on DD & The Order

Now, as for what you see as the only two possibilities.  I see 
something else, because of the assumptions above *and* the fact that 
I agree that Snape is powerful & smart.  If Voldy wants Snape as his 
spy--and he's the *only* DE we're aware of in such a prime spot for 
keeping an eye on DD--then he *will* let Snape "off the hook" or 
instruct him not to do certain things other DEs are doing, such as 
showing up to fight at the MOM.  This is precisely so that Snape can 
maintain his position of trust w/ DD.  If Snape showed up w/ the 
others, he'd have blown his cover, right?  And maybe Voldy feels it 
is way too early in the contest to give up his one big spy.  

It's a lovely position for Snape, actually.  He has built-in excuses 
to give Voldemort whenever he doesn't seem loyal or when he can't 
show up somewhere [like the graveyard?], for he must keep up 
appearances w/ DD *and* must keep an eye on DD.  In return, DD can 
help Snape select information to give Voldy or Lucius--enough to 
stay convincing but not enough to be too damaging.

As for Snape possibly having been able to tell Harry precisely how 
Voldy would attempt to get to Harry, I'm not sure you're not giving 
Snape too much credit there.  I don't know whether I believe Snape 
knew specifically how it would be accomplished.  But also, *even if 
he did know/suspect*, Snape has to be just as careful in how much 
information he gives to DD/Harry/The Order as he is in giving info 
to Voldy.  If it appears that they know too much, Voldy is likely to 
suspect that Snape is betraying him.  Who else would have that info 
& could share it w/ Harry or DD?  Snape walks a very fine line, imo, 
a line which requires him to be a very good actor & liar and a very 
good judge of how much information is enough/too much.

Does that help, Sue? 

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From ellyn337 at earthlink.net  Sun Mar  7 22:29:03 2004
From: ellyn337 at earthlink.net (mclellyn)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 22:29:03 -0000
Subject: Crookshanks
In-Reply-To: <c2f6fv+38tl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2g7nf+4mt5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92437

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "puju02" <puju02 at y...> wrote:
> While everyone wonders who Crookshanks really is, I read in 
Fantastic 
> Beasts...about Crookshanks being a kind of Kneazle. However, what 
is 
> the secret of Crookshanks- whre did he come from? We all believe 
him 
> to be an animagus of someone, but that's not the case. So what is 
the 
> deal with him. has he anything to do with Harry's cat-loving squib 
> neighbour- Mrs. Figg?
> Just my thoughts. Would love to share your opinions.
> -Puja

Gadfly McLellyn writes:

I still have suspicions that Crookshanks is an animagus.  

Has anyone else noticed that the description of Mundungus Fletcher 
and the description of Crookshanks are similar?

P 22 Order of the Phoenix US version
"He had short bandy legs, long straggly ginger hair ......"  This is 
a description of Mundungus when he reappears after the dementors 
attack.

On page 82 US version of the Order of the Phoenix
"See, I wouldn't 'ave left," said Mundungus, leaning forward, a 
pleading note in his voice, "but I 'ad a business opportunity ---"

Harry felt something brush against his knees and started, but it was 
only Crookshanks, Hermione's bandy-legged ginger cat, who wound 
himself once around Harry's legs, purring, then jumped onto Sirius's 
lap and curled up."

With this information, the theory that comes to my mind is that 
Crookshanks is an animagus and a relative of Mundungus's.  Remember 
in the Hogs Head when Mundungus had to hide under a veil?  Well, 
maybe he has a brother who has to hide by being an animagus.  
Crookshanks seems to have cut off Harry from responding to 
Mundungus's sort-of-apology.  Crookshanks appears to be a bit 
protective of other ginger-haired, bandy-legged souls!

Gadfly McLellyn





From rayheuer3 at aol.com  Sun Mar  7 22:42:57 2004
From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 17:42:57 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Unanswered Questions
Message-ID: <1c3.1609c3c0.2d7cff71@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92438

american_sweetie_xoxo at yahoo.com writes:

> 2.) Ok so we all found out the history of the 4 houses in CoS..that 
> there was a disagreement about letting "Muggles" into Hogwarts. We 
> all know that passed and they are now permitted to join the 
> school..What I don't understand is, who is the one who decided 
> what "muggles" are worthy of such a education? How do 
> these "Muggles" feel about knowing there is another world out there? 

Well, of course we are not talking about "muggles", but children of
Muggles who demonstrate magical skills.  It is implied, but never
stated, that magic talent is somehow genetic, and "Pureblood" children
will be witches/wizards.  Now the problem is, somewhere over the years,
magical folk have fallen in love with, married, and had children with, 
muggles.
This "muddies" the bloodlines, and someone like Hermione, whose both
parents are muggles, almost certainly had one or more multiple-great 
grandparents who were witches/wizards.

Now Mr. Slytherine wanted to teach only the purebloods.  Those whose
genetics were never tainted by muggledom.  Ms. Hufflepuff wanted to teach
everyone who showed the talent.  The other two founders were probably
neutral to the idea.  The Slytherine argument is largely emotional, and you 
either accept it or you don't.  Helga could almost certainly bring Ms. 
Ravenclaw
around by pointing out that the more eligible students you have, the more
tuition comes in to fund the school.  Godric would respond to the argument
that it would be "wrong" to deprive muggle-borns of the protection of the 
school
and the knowledge of how to control their gift.

Making things more complicated are people like Voldemort who apparently
consider children of muggle-born witches/wizards to be just as much "mudblood"
as their parents.

  --  Ray


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ellyn337 at earthlink.net  Sun Mar  7 22:50:17 2004
From: ellyn337 at earthlink.net (mclellyn)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 22:50:17 -0000
Subject: Stopper in Death
In-Reply-To: <20040306013253.55313c92.cora_dee@web.de>
Message-ID: <c2g8v9+b68r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92439

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, cora_dee <cora_dee at w...> wrote:
> Great group, great discussions! I'm very happy to have found you :)
> 
> But now here's a question I didn't see answered before:
> 
> You all know Snape's Speech about the art of potion making. And you 
remember that line about "putting a stopper in death". 
> 
> Well ... let's play! If that's the special ability potion making 
offers to a master - whose death is Snape going to stopper? 
> 
> Harry? Dumbledore? Voldemort? Sirius? Anyone else's? 
> 
> Wondering,
> C.

Gadfly McLellyn writes:

see my post 79500 on Sept 1st, 2003 also, but here is a brief version:

The reason why Dumbledore trusts Snape and Snape hates Harry is that 
Snape brewed up some way for the AK curse to fail when it hit Harry, 
but Harry gets all the credit and fame for this.  So maybe Snape 
already did stopper death - Harry's death by Voldemort.  It explains 
why Dumbledore trusts him so much, and why Snape resents Harry's fame 
because it should be Snape's fame.  But Snape can't let the DE's know 
this because then he would be number one target for the DE's to 
murder.  

What do you think?

Gadfly McLellyn





From meriaugust at yahoo.com  Sun Mar  7 23:13:52 2004
From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 23:13:52 -0000
Subject: Unanswered Questions
In-Reply-To: <c2g535+2kqm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2gabg+9sg3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92440

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "american_sweetie_xoxo" 
<american_sweetie_xoxo at y...> wrote:
> Ok I have read all the books and so far there are a few things I 
> don't understand....

Meri: Only a few? Wow. My list of things I don't understand is miles 
long! 

> 1.) Snape was a Death Eater (no big shock) The Dark Lord has 
> attempted to kill or maime all the traitors, or they were sent to 
> prison....so why is Snape still alive? I know Dumbledore trusts 
him 
> and that's why he is working at Hogwarts and all that good stuff 
but 
> why isn't the Dark Lord looking for Snape? How come he and Lucius 
are 
> still buddy buddy even though Snape has turned his back against 
his 
> Master?? 

Meri here: Well, I would say that these are some of the crucial 
questions about the relationships between Snape, LV, Malfoy and DD. 
And you make a good point: we have very little cannon from which to 
deduct an answer. How is Snape still spying? How has he convinced LV 
that he can be trusted? How did he hide his loyatly to DD from LV 
when LV was resding in the back of Prof. Quirrell's head? And how 
can DD be sure that Snape is truly trustworthy? I think that part of 
the answers to your and my questions lies with Occlumency and 
Legilimency. These abilities, to block people from being able to see 
your thoughts and the ability to see others' thoughts, can come in 
very handy. DD, LV and Snape are all accomplished at these 
techniques, though someone must be better at it than the other two, 
or the abilities would just cancel each other out, wouldn't they? I 
would watch for more explantion about Occ. and Legi. in future 
books, and I would think Harry would have to continue to learn these 
skills, though hopefully not from Snape. 

> 2.) Ok so we all found out the history of the 4 houses in 
CoS..that 
> there was a disagreement about letting "Muggles" into Hogwarts. We 
> all know that passed and they are now permitted to join the 
> school..What I don't understand is, who is the one who decided 
> what "muggles" are worthy of such a education? How do 
> these "Muggles" feel about knowing there is another world out 
there? 

Meri again: Technically the students that Salazar Slytherin was so 
concerned about letting into the school aren't Muggles, they are 
Muggle-born, like Hermione and Dean Thomas and the Creeveys and Lily 
Potter, as opposed to those students who are "pure blooded" like 
Draco Malfoy, Sirius Black, the Weasleys and James Potter, or those 
who are half-bloods, like Seamus Finnegan and Remus Lupin. (Squibs 
are again something different: children of a wizarding family that 
cannot do magic, but whatever other powers or abilites they may have 
we as of now do not know.) Slytherin didn't trust the Muggle borns 
because he feared that they would reveal the WW's secrets to the 
Muggle world, while the other three founders had a bit more faith. 
But there are not any actual full blooded Muggles at Hogwarts, 
because a Muggle is by definition a person who cannot do magic, and 
doesn't have any magical blood in their viens, which would make it 
v. hard for them to pass their transfiguration and charms finals. 
Hogwarts is off limits to non in the know Muggles (who, due to the 
enchantments protecting the shool would just see a mouldy, dangerous 
old ruin), and those few who do have knowledge of the WW, like 
students' parents, probably for the most part are okay with the 
whole wizarding thing, or their kids wouldn't be at Hogwarts in the 
first place (the exceptions here being the Dursleys and Tom Riddle 
Senior, who abandoned his witch wife and wizard son out of fear/hate 
of the magical world). As for Muggles with no familial connection to 
the WW who discover or are told about it, there are only a few of 
these we know about: Aunt Marge, who's had her memory modified, and 
the Muggle Prime Minister, who was in the know about the Sirius 
Black affair. Fudge had faith in the PM not telling anyone about the 
WW simply because no one would believe him anyway, and I would 
assume that this lack of belief, and a few well place memory charms, 
help to keep us Muggles blissfully ignorant. 
Meri (who wonders if a pair of Squibs had a baby if there would be 
any chance of that baby having magical powers)




From rredordead at aol.com  Mon Mar  8 00:02:11 2004
From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 00:02:11 -0000
Subject: 'the one who left  for ever'  Was:  JKR chat
In-Reply-To: <c2drsn+71ki@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2gd63+927q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92441


>Sue wrote:
> Snape on the other hand is way too smart to be somebody's lacky, 
even Malfoy. 
><snip>

Mandy here:
Don't you think Snape is smart enough to 'appear' to be some one's 
lackey even if it is not really so, to get what he or DD desires?  I 
think so.  It seems pretty clear Snape has a relationship with 
Malfoy, Malfoy has a lot more power than our Sevvy,  ergo Snape works 
for, or under Lucius in some capacity.   I will concede that we can't 
take Sirius Lapdog insult too literally. When we consider the course 
and the animosity that exists between the two men, Sirius would have 
said anything, true or false, to get at Snape and Sirius could have 
been referring back to Snape's school days with that comment.   I 
disagree with you about Snape and LV though.  I don't think Snape 
talks with LV personally, it would be far too dangerous to expose him 
to LV power, and expose DD and Harry Potter to LV through Snape.  I 
know Snape is supposed to be this world class Occulmens, but I have 
to believe LV is far more powerful that Snape in order to believe 
what the threat that is posses to the WW.  Snape must be in 
communication with some one else, and Malfoy seems to be the logical 
choice to me.  

>Sue wrote:
> We know from many examples of canon that no one leaves Voldmort.  
It is either a >lifelong commitment or death.  If Voldemort believed  
Snape had truly left him forever, >he would not have lived to see the 
beginning of book 5.  BTW, asking whether we >would ever see Karkarof 
again might have been a good one!

Mandy here:
Not unless LV `wants' to keep Snape alive.  Of course LV could kill 
Snape at anytime, so the question has to be why is he keeping him 
alive?  LV has to have a very good reason to, and to what that reason 
is, we can only speculate.

What you say make perfect sense and could very well be right but I'm 
more inclined to believe the situation for Snape is much more complex 
than you make it out to be.  Or perhaps I just want it to be that 
way. ;-)  I wish life was easy for our dear old Snape but he wouldn't 
be the tortured soul we love to hate if it was.

Mandy





From MadameSSnape at aol.com  Mon Mar  8 00:09:53 2004
From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 19:09:53 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] numerology-ing the new middle names and a bit of SHIP
Message-ID: <3f.28d008e4.2d7d13d1@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92442

Fascinating!  What do you make of Ron's 22 (1 March 1980) birthpath?  And 
Hermione is either a 1 (if born 19 Sept 1980) or a 9 (if born 19 Sept 1979).

(Harry is, of course, an 11...)

Sherrie
"Unless history lives in our present, it has no future." - George Lopez
PRESERVE OUR CIVIL WAR BATTLEFIELDS!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From MadameSSnape at aol.com  Mon Mar  8 00:16:06 2004
From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 19:16:06 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] numerology-ing the new middle names and a bit of SHIP
Message-ID: <a3.5399e02d.2d7d1546@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92443

In a message dated 3/7/2004 5:19:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
anne_conda at web.de writes:
Before I move on with Seven I want to declare that I don't know 
whether Harrys full name IS Harry Potter or whether it is Harry JAMES 
Potter. I always felt that the last version was something of a 
extensively spread rumour. Surely the LOONs will help me out there.
===================
Sherrie here:

Sorry, I forgot to quote on my post about birthpaths - a thousand apologies, 
I got it mixed up with a post from another group!  I grovel in the dust!!

Ahem - according to JKR (B&N interview 8 Sept 1999):

Q: What is Harry's middle name?        JKR: James, after his father. 
Sherrie


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Elvishooked at hotmail.com  Mon Mar  8 00:25:33 2004
From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 00:25:33 -0000
Subject: Unanswered Questions
In-Reply-To: <1c3.1609c3c0.2d7cff71@aol.com>
Message-ID: <c2geht+e74s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92444

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, rayheuer3 at a... wrote:
american_sweetie_xoxo at y... asked:
>>>..What I don't understand is, who is the one who decided 
what "muggles" are worthy of such a education? How do these "Muggles" 
feel about knowing there is another world out there? <<<

Ray replied:
snip...
>>>Now Mr. Slytherine wanted to teach only the purebloods.  Those 
whose genetics were never tainted by muggledom. 
 
snip

Making things more complicated are people like Voldemort who 
apparently consider children of muggle-born witches/wizards to be 
just as much "mudblood" as their parents.<<<

Inge now:
Not to forget that Tom Riddle him self is a half blood. 
If Slytherin only wanted purebloods in his House it is a bit strange 
that Riddle was actually placed there. The Sorting Hat obviously does 
not think it necessary to be a pureblood to be let into Slytherin 
House. I wonder how good old Salazar would feel about that if he 
knew...






From houseofbohacek at earthlink.net  Mon Mar  8 01:27:43 2004
From: houseofbohacek at earthlink.net (klyanthea)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 01:27:43 -0000
Subject: (FILK) Dragons Are The World's Best Pet
Message-ID: <c2gi6f+ohda@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92445

Dragons Are The World's Best Pet

(A filk by Gail B. to the tune of _Sparkling Diamonds_ from the movie
Moulin Rouge)


Which is actually the tune _Diamonds Are A Girl's Best Friend_ with a
little snippet from _Material Girl_ * by Madonna.


Dedicated to Wendy St. James for her love of Dragons (and NOT for any
other reason :)> )

And to Haggridd...in hopes that he makes a speedy recovery.



CoS, chapter 14, page 185 UK softcover edition:
"Harry, Ron and Hermione had always known that Hagrid had an
unfortunate liking for large and monstrous creatures. During their
fist year at Hogwarts he had tried to raise a dragon in his little
wooden house..."

The lights go out in the Great Hall save for a single spot-light which
focuses upon a huge figure descending from the ceiling on a swing.
It's Hagrid, dressed in a sequin studded dragon-hide coat with
matching top hat.

Hagrid:

One day I'm going to get me one....

My Blast-ended Skrewts may have incredible maws
But dragons are the world's best pet
I've befriended cute little Acromantulas
But they can't compare
'Cause dragons have that (mmmmm) savoir-faire

My desire breathes streams of fire
But I don't regard that as a threat
For Longhorns and Short-snouts
I'm completely devout
Dragons are the world's best pet

Opaleye! Vipertooth!

*'Cause I am longing for a Hebridean Black
With spikes down it's obsidian back

(spoken)
Come to mamma, boy!

Welsh Green! Fireball!

Aw, Albus Dumbledore, why won't you let me have one?

(singing)
The official Ministry classification

(Dumbledore joins in)
Says, "Dragons aren't the world's best pet"

Hagrid:
The Headmaster said about my fascination

(Dumbledore joins in)
Dragons are not tame

Hagrid:
That's what they claim, it's such a shame

Harry, Ron and Hermione:
Hagrid said that at Hog's Head
There's a moment he'll never forget

Dragons are the world's best
Dragons are the world's best
Dragons are the world's best pet

Hagrid:
I won playing black jack
A Norwegian Ridgeback

Dragons are the world's best pet!


-Gail B...never to sick to filk!




From nkafkafi at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  8 01:36:26 2004
From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 01:36:26 -0000
Subject: Snape's position
In-Reply-To: <c2g7jd+7l6s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2gimq+iimv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92446

> Sue wrote:
> > The big question to me is why is Snape still alive.  He is too 
> > smart to just be running around for Lucius Malfoy while Crabb and 
> > Goyle are showing up at important events like the MoM.  
<big snip> 


> Susan here, checking in:
> Well, Sue, I do NOT know what the story is w/ Severus Snape any 
more 
> than anybody else [and a lot less than many esteemed members of 
this 
> list].  **For now** I am taking some things at face value [while 
> some of those esteemed members are probably rolling their eyes at 
my 
> naivete].  
> 
> Assumptions:
> 1) Snape really was a DE [well, that one's a fact]
> 2) Snape really did choose to leave Voldy before his downfall
> 3) Snape really is on the side of The Order
> 4) Snape really is spying on Voldy while having convinced Voldy 
he's 
> spying on DD & The Order
<big snip> 


Neri:
Accepting the assumptions above for a minute, I'll try to answer just 
one small part: how could Snape not know in advance about the MoM 
raid, when even Crabbe and Goyle (the DEs) know about it?

In a secret military organization such as the DEs, everybody operates 
on a need-to-know basis. Crabbe and Goyle most likely did not know 
about the LV's plans for Harry. There was no need for them to know. 
For them it was probably something like "meet us today at 5:15 PM 
near the MoM entrance; standard raid equipment". Any additional 
details they need to know they will be given there, and even then it 
would probably be limited to tactical details ("nobody gets Potter 
until I say so"). It is quite possible that they hear for the first 
time about the Grand Plan when Lucius Malfoy explains it to Harry, 
and Malfoy only does so because he is sure he now has it in his 
pocket and can't avoid his tendency to brag.

So was Snape told about the MoM operation in advance? The first 
question is: does he need to know? If not, he is simply not told, 
however high he is in the DE organization. From LV's point of view, I 
think it is not necessary for Snape to know about the Grand Plan, but 
I can see two reasons why it may be of advantage to warn him at the 
day of the operation. First, as a teacher Snape might find out that 
Harry is trying to get away from Hogwarts and naturally detain him, 
unless he is told to let Harry go. Secondly, Harry will need some 
transportation to the MoM (LV was probably assuming Harry will take 
someone's broom) and Snape might prevent it from him. So all the 
information Snape is likely to get is, several hrs before the 
operation: "Potter will be trying to get to London. Let him do so". 
No need to even tell Snape where in London and why. If Snape indeed 
got such directions, and we assume he is actually on the side of 
Good, he was probably thinking "Harry must not get to London, but it 
mustn't look as if I was the one who prevented him from doing so". 
Then Umbridge detained Harry and his friends anyhow, so Snape thought 
he doesn't have to do anything except let the Order know, which he 
did.

I hope this hepls,

Neri   





From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Mon Mar  8 05:03:25 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 05:03:25 -0000
Subject: Snape's position
In-Reply-To: <c2gimq+iimv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2guqt+10o6u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92447

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" <nkafkafi at y...> 
wrote:
> > Sue wrote:
> > > The big question to me is why is Snape still alive.  He is too 
> > > smart to just be running around for Lucius Malfoy while Crabb 
and 
> > > Goyle are showing up at important events like the MoM.  
> <big snip> 
> 
> 
> > Susan here, checking in:
> > Well, Sue, I do NOT know what the story is w/ Severus Snape any 
> more 
> > than anybody else [and a lot less than many esteemed members of 
> this 
> > list].  **For now** I am taking some things at face value [while 
> > some of those esteemed members are probably rolling their eyes at 
> my 
> > naivete].  
> > 
> > Assumptions:
> > 1) Snape really was a DE [well, that one's a fact]
> > 2) Snape really did choose to leave Voldy before his downfall
> > 3) Snape really is on the side of The Order
> > 4) Snape really is spying on Voldy while having convinced Voldy 
> he's 
> > spying on DD & The Order
> <big snip> 
> 
> 
> Neri:
> Accepting the assumptions above for a minute, I'll try to answer 
just 
> one small part: how could Snape not know in advance about the MoM 
> raid, when even Crabbe and Goyle (the DEs) know about it?
> 
> In a secret military organization such as the DEs, everybody 
operates 
> on a need-to-know basis. Crabbe and Goyle most likely did not know 
> about the LV's plans for Harry. There was no need for them to know. 
> snip> So was Snape told about the MoM operation in advance? The 
first 
> question is: does he need to know? If not, he is simply not told, 
> however high he is in the DE organization. From LV's point of view, 
I 
> think it is not necessary for Snape to know about the Grand Plan, 
but 
> I can see two reasons why it may be of advantage to warn him at the 
> day of the operation. First, as a teacher Snape might find out that 
> Harry is trying to get away from Hogwarts and naturally detain him, 
> unless he is told to let Harry go. Secondly, Harry will need some 
> transportation to the MoM (LV was probably assuming Harry will take 
> someone's broom) and Snape might prevent it from him. So all the 
> information Snape is likely to get is, several hrs before the 
> operation: "Potter will be trying to get to London. Let him do so". 
> No need to even tell Snape where in London and why. If Snape indeed 
> got such directions, and we assume he is actually on the side of 
> Good, he was probably thinking "Harry must not get to London, but 
it 
> mustn't look as if I was the one who prevented him from doing so". 
> Then Umbridge detained Harry and his friends anyhow, so Snape 
thought 
> he doesn't have to do anything except let the Order know, which he 
> did.
> 
> I hope this hepls,
> 
> Neri

Thanks for the response (everyone). I am still bothered (as is at 
least one other poster I read tonight) about the reason Snape is 
still alive.  I think I must be giving him too much credit.  There is 
no other way for this all to work unless Voldemort and Malfoy both 
see Snape as less capable than most of us who read the books do.  

It seems to me there were so many things Snape could have done to 
stop Harry from going to the MoM, and didn't.  Why not follow them 
into the forest?  He could have said he was helping Umbridge with 
the "weapon" and stopped them from leaving.  He could have contacted 
DD and told him Harry and co. had left, possibly getting DD to the 
DoM sooner, etc.

DD as puppetmaster?
Snape the pawn?
Snape the evil capitulater with Voldemort?

Obviously I'm going to have to sit on this one until the end, 
probably of book 7 would be my guess.

I'll try to think about it less :)!

Sue




From owlery2003 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  8 05:17:00 2004
From: owlery2003 at yahoo.com (Scott Santangelo)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 21:17:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Book six predicts . . .
In-Reply-To: <c2ffpo+7pb1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040308051700.20615.qmail@web60103.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92448


Please take the following with a healthy grain of salt. I jotted this down in a frenzy of speculation!

Following the OOTP debacle, HRH develop open lines of communication, keeping themselves in contact. Everyone now realizes (or soon will) that Harry will ultimately face LV in a life/death struggle. The guard on Harry will be increased, and HRH will in increasingly targeted. Next term at Hogwarts will test their survival skills no matter what transpires. LV has been aggressively recruiting. The DE's, the Giants, the Dementors and the Goblins. Now that he's been exposed, he'll go on the offensive. Will his captured DE's escape? Grimmauld Place has been compromised as a safe-house. Hogwarts will again assume the posture of sanctuary, with the omnipresent DD and staff as guards. The DA will be an officially sanctioned boot camp as the student body braces for it's role in the inevitable battle royale. Of course, just as the final board is set, book 6 will draw to a close, leaving us wondering (again!!) how things will turn out.

Does anyone else feel that the movie-book synergy is a planned obstacle to the release of the final book(s)? It seems they will release POA, let it wash out through the holiday of '04, then lead-into the GOF movie previews/scuttlebut hoopla (POA video release), then hit hard with the book release of #6, then the GOF movie, etc., etc. I guess it's a form of timed-release dosage, but as a serious HP addict, it's hard waiting for the next real fix!

owlery2003



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search - Find what you?re looking for faster.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From yswahl at stis.net  Mon Mar  8 06:24:51 2004
From: yswahl at stis.net (samnanya)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 06:24:51 -0000
Subject: Book six predicts . . .
In-Reply-To: <20040308051700.20615.qmail@web60103.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c2h3jj+tdu9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92449

owlery2003
Does anyone else feel that the movie-book synergy is a planned 
obstacle to the release of the final book(s)? It seems they will 
release POA, let it wash out through the holiday of '04, then 
lead-into the GOF movie previews/scuttlebut hoopla (POA video release)
, then hit hard with the book release of #6, then the GOF movie, etc., 
etc. I guess it's a form of timed-release dosage, but as a serious HP 
addict, it's hard waiting for the next real fix!

samnanya
I dont think that jkr is all that bothered about the movie or the toy 
rights as long as they dont mess with her books.
In addition, Forbes magazine reported that Harry Potter "chatchka" 
sales are down and they feel the fad may be waning..... I personally 
dont think so, but the longer jkr waits to get book 6 out there, the 
better the odds someone will figure it all out and blow it out of the 
water.
There are getting to be too many facts out there to base theories on, 
and for the first time, I almost feel comfortable with my predictions, 
and the predictions of others i have seen.

That said, I will be suprised if book 6 is delayed beyond christmas




From nkafkafi at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  8 06:59:11 2004
From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 06:59:11 -0000
Subject: Snape's position
In-Reply-To: <c2guqt+10o6u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2h5jv+kotb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92450

"suehpfan" wrote:
> Thanks for the response (everyone). I am still bothered (as is at 
> least one other poster I read tonight) about the reason Snape is 
> still alive.  I think I must be giving him too much credit.  There 
is 
> no other way for this all to work unless Voldemort and Malfoy both 
> see Snape as less capable than most of us who read the books do.  
> 
> It seems to me there were so many things Snape could have done to 
> stop Harry from going to the MoM, and didn't.  Why not follow them 
> into the forest?  He could have said he was helping Umbridge with 
> the "weapon" and stopped them from leaving.  He could have 
contacted 
> DD and told him Harry and co. had left, possibly getting DD to the 
> DoM sooner, etc.
> 
> DD as puppetmaster?
> Snape the pawn?
> Snape the evil capitulater with Voldemort?
> 
> Obviously I'm going to have to sit on this one until the end, 
> probably of book 7 would be my guess.
> 

Neri:
These are certainly some of the most central questions in the HP 
saga, and I'm hardly an experienced snapeologist. Just commenting 
about Snape's position and the credit we give him: In the extremely 
centralist and secret organization of LV, I believe the DEs are 
regarded by their roles rather than by their rank. LV thinks of them 
as tools and weapons rather then officers and soldiers. Avery was the 
DoM project man, for example. When Avery didn't deliver he was kicked 
out and replaced by Rockwood. Even Malfoy was probably not told about 
the project (not in detail, anyway) until he was needed for 
organizing the raid itself. So I think Snape's position is also a 
matter of his role, not his rank. It is not something like "a DE of 
the first circle" or  "a DE of the second circle". It is "my man in 
Hogwarts" and "my agent inside the Order". LV might have additional 
informers inside Hogwarts and the Order, of course, but still Snape 
seems to be located in an extremely important place, which makes him 
not only very valuable, put almost irreplaceable. This might explain 
why he is still alive. What I'm trying to say is, even if Snape *is* 
that important, he won't be told about anything unless it directly 
pertains to his specific role. This is standard need-to-know 
procedure, practiced by all terrorist organizations and especially 
those centered around a single dictator.

Neri

Neri  




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  8 07:39:16 2004
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 07:39:16 -0000
Subject: Book six predicts . . Pink Panther & Harry Potter
In-Reply-To: <20040308051700.20615.qmail@web60103.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c2h7v4+keud@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92451

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Scott Santangelo
<owlery2003 at y...> wrote:
> 
> Please take the following with a healthy grain of salt. I jotted
this down in a frenzy of speculation!
> 
> Following the OOTP debacle, HRH develop open lines of communication,
keeping themselves in contact. Everyone now realizes (or soon will)
that Harry will ultimately face LV in a life/death struggle. The guard
on Harry will be increased, and HRH will in increasingly targeted.
Next term at Hogwarts will test their survival skills no matter what
transpires. ...edited... The DA will be an officially sanctioned boot
camp as the student body braces for it's role in the inevitable battle
royale. Of course, just as the final board is set, book 6 will draw to
a close, leaving us wondering (again!!) how things will turn out.
> 
> ...edited...
> 
> owlery2003

bboy_mn:

An odd thought popped into my head as I read your post. Do you
remember the Pink Panther, ie: Peter Sellers in the role of Chief
Insp. Jacques Clouseau? 

The Pink Panther was a detective, and he had an assistant. Insp.
Clouseau gave his assistant free and open permission to attack him at
any time and in any place. This was to keep him on his toes and keep
his reflexes sharp. 

It made for great comedy. Suddenly in the middle in talking to
someone, Clouseau's assistance would come running across the room
screaming, and try to attack. I won't go into detail beyond that, but
if you've seen the movies, you know it was done to hillarious comedic
effect.

So as I read your post, I had this vision where Dumbledore would
instruct Snape to tell Voldemort about the Occlumency lessons, and to
also tell him that Harry was a total failure at it. Consequently,
Voldmort would see this is a worthwhile avenue of pursuit. Then,
Dumbledore informs Harry about what he is going to do, and tells him
that now more than ever, Harry must learn to block his mind.

But how to motivate him, how to assure that Harry indeed practices
long and hard to prevent the invasion of his mind? 

Answer; take a cue for the Pink Panther, and teach Ron and Hermione
the Legilemency Charm, and invite them to attack Harry's mind anytime,
anywhere, anyway; and sooner or later he will either get so tired of
it that he will block his mind our of shear irritation, or it will
happen so often that he will learn by shear repetition.

In any event, the image of Ron and Hermione skulking around corners
and sneaking up on Harry attacking his mind at very comedic and
inopportune times struck me as funny.

I wonder if JKR is a Pink Panther fan?

Just a random thought.

bboy_mn





From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Mar  8 09:22:51 2004
From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 09:22:51 -0000
Subject: Squibs?
Message-ID: <c2he1b+tt0g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92452

I've always blithely assumed that the people like the witch who 
brings round the trolley on the express or the barman in the Leakey 
Cauldron  are all squibs, since they are plainly part of the WW but 
are doing rather mundane jobs.  However, someone has suggested to me 
that they may actually be people who, for some reason or other, have 
failed their OWLS and have left school without qualifications.Is this 
possible?  Would they have been chosen in the first place if their 
magical potential is so weak?  And where does that leave people like 
Madam Rosmerta, who is strong and capable in her job and doesn't 
appear to need magic (or does she?)
Sylvia (who needs to think about something other than The Chat)




From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Mar  8 09:45:27 2004
From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 09:45:27 -0000
Subject: On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
Message-ID: <c2hfbn+qs05@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92453

Thanks, Geoff, for the best laugh of the week, speculating on 
Vernon's reaction should Dudley decide to do a Billy Elliott.  
Unfortunately, I can't now get the image of Dudley in a tutu out of 
my mind!
Sylvia




From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk  Mon Mar  8 10:49:02 2004
From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 10:49:02 -0000
Subject: Squibs? Or no qualifications?
In-Reply-To: <c2he1b+tt0g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2hj2u+lh7l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92454

Sylvia wrote:
> I've always blithely assumed that the people like the witch who 
> brings round the trolley on the express or the barman in the 
> Leakey Cauldron  are all squibs, since they are plainly part of 
> the WW but are doing rather mundane jobs.  However, someone has 
> suggested to me that they may actually be people who, for some 
> reason or other, have failed their OWLS and have left school 
> without qualifications.Is this possible?  Would they have been 
> chosen in the first place if their magical potential is so weak?  


Failing your OWLs doesn't mean you have weak magical potential. For 
one thing, the OWLs have a theory and a practical - it would be 
quite possible for someone to pass the practical and fail the 
theory. Also, there are always students like the twins, who have the 
potential to pass but just don't care; they know they don't want a 
career where they'll need exam results, they want to open a joke 
shop. 

If the WW exam system is like the English/Scottish exam system, it 
would also be possible to re-take exams later if you discover that 
you made a dreadful mistake leaving school without qualifications 
:-) This happens all the time in the UK - the exams themselves are 
standardised, so no one really cares whether you took them at school 
or later - so long as you have, at some point, passed.


> And where does that leave people like 
> Madam Rosmerta, who is strong and capable in her job and doesn't 
> appear to need magic (or does she?)

She probably does need magic. Right up to the nineteen thirties it 
was not unknown for publicans to sell one beer they'd brewed 
themselves. Given that the WW split in the 17th Century, I wouldn't 
be at all surprised if Madam Rosmerta brewed some of the products 
she sold (using magic). She may also use charms to move the barrels 
around, preserving spells for the food, etcetera, etcetera.

Tom the barman probably uses similar spells - and may use loads 
of 'housework' spells to clean the bedrooms and bar. The Leakey 
Cauldron is an old style public house with accommodation as well as 
a bar. He may be owner/manager as well as barman.

Pip!Squeak





From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Mon Mar  8 12:13:12 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 12:13:12 -0000
Subject: Snape's position
In-Reply-To: <c2guqt+10o6u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2ho0o+hble@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92455

> > > Sue wrote:
> > > > The big question to me is why is Snape still alive.  He is 
> > > too smart to just be running around for Lucius Malfoy while 
> > > Crabb and Goyle are showing up at important events like the 
> > > MoM.   <big snip> 
 
Neri:
> > In a secret military organization such as the DEs, everybody 
> > operates on a need-to-know basis. Crabbe and Goyle most likely 
> > did not know about the LV's plans for Harry. There was no need 
> > for them to know. <snip> So was Snape told about the MoM 
> > operation in advance? The first question is: does he need to 
> > know? If not, he is simply not told, however high he is in the 
> > DE organization. 

Sue:
> Thanks for the response (everyone). I am still bothered (as is at 
> least one other poster I read tonight) about the reason Snape is 
> still alive.  I think I must be giving him too much credit.  There 
> is no other way for this all to work unless Voldemort and Malfoy 
> both see Snape as less capable than most of us who read the books 
> do.  

Susan now:

Sue, the portion of my first message that got snipped & forwarded on 
wasn't the part of it which attempted to answer your original 
question [so I've removed it].  I think Neri has a point, above, and 
I'm going to try again to explain why I think Snape is still alive.  
If this doesn't work, so be it, but at least it'll be the part which 
attempted to answer your question....


Now, as for what you see as the only two possibilities. I see
something else, because of the assumptions above *and* the fact that
I agree that Snape is powerful & smart. If Voldy wants Snape as his
spy--and he's the *only* DE we're aware of in such a prime spot for
keeping an eye on DD--then he *will* let Snape "off the hook" or
instruct him not to do certain things other DEs are doing, such as
showing up to fight at the MOM. This is precisely so that Snape can
maintain his position of trust w/ DD. If Snape showed up w/ the
others, he'd have blown his cover, right? And maybe Voldy feels it
is way too early in the contest to give up his one big spy.

It's a lovely position for Snape, actually. He has built-in excuses
to give Voldemort whenever he doesn't seem loyal or when he can't
show up somewhere [like the graveyard?], for he must keep up
appearances w/ DD *and* must keep an eye on DD. In return, DD can
help Snape select information to give Voldy or Lucius--enough to
stay convincing but not enough to be too damaging.

As for Snape possibly having been able to tell Harry precisely how
Voldy would attempt to get to Harry, I'm not sure you're not giving
Snape too much credit there. I don't know whether I believe Snape
knew specifically how it would be accomplished. But also, *even if
he did know/suspect*, Snape has to be just as careful in how much
information he gives to DD/Harry/The Order as he is in giving info
to Voldy. If it appears that they know too much, Voldy is likely to
suspect that Snape is betraying him. Who else would have that info
& could share it w/ Harry or DD? Snape walks a very fine line, imo,
a line which requires him to be a very good actor & liar and a very
good judge of how much information is enough/too much.

Siriusly Snapey Susan






From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Mar  8 13:08:06 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 13:08:06 -0000
Subject: Snape's position
In-Reply-To: <c2ho0o+hble@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2hr7m+7mdv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92456

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" 
<susiequsie23 at s...> wrote:

 
> Sue:
> > Thanks for the response (everyone). I am still bothered (as is 
at 
> > least one other poster I read tonight) about the reason Snape is 
> > still alive.  I think I must be giving him too much credit.  
There 
> > is no other way for this all to work unless Voldemort and Malfoy 
> > both see Snape as less capable than most of us who read the 
books 
> > do.  

Potioncat here:
I'm never sure if I'm snipping correctly or not. I've taken out a 
bunch of replies to just answer this one section.  There have been a 
lot of good replies, not that all the replies argreed with each 
other, but good none the less.

The other possiblility is that Snape's role is a little different 
than we think. He has to be alive either because LV trusts him or 
doesn't trust him but can use him.  The more we know about Snape, 
the more mysterious he becomes.

Also, and I apologise for using memory rather than a quote, but I 
remember Serius saying he'd never heard that Snape was a death 
eater. (I think he went on to say Snape was cunning enough to be 
able to hide the fact)  So whatever Snape's role was the first time, 
he wasn't very visible. He may never have taken part in actual raids.
And certainly, not having the need to know would explain why he may 
not have known about the upcoming battle at MoM, especially in a 
such an untrusting organization as LV's.

Potioncat, who will now try to give this a rest, but has really 
enjoyed participating in this thread




From jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com  Mon Mar  8 14:01:45 2004
From: jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com (mooseming)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 14:01:45 -0000
Subject: Stopper in Death
In-Reply-To: <c2g8v9+b68r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2huc9+2nr3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92457


> 
> Gadfly McLellyn writes:
> 
> see my post 79500 on Sept 1st, 2003 also, but here is a brief version:
> 
> The reason why Dumbledore trusts Snape and Snape hates Harry is that 
> Snape brewed up some way for the AK curse to fail when it hit Harry, 
> but Harry gets all the credit and fame for this.  So maybe Snape 
> already did stopper death - Harry's death by Voldemort.  It explains 
> why Dumbledore trusts him so much, and why Snape resents Harry's fame 
> because it should be Snape's fame.  But Snape can't let the DE's know 
> this because then he would be number one target for the DE's to 
> murder.  
> 
> What do you think?
> 
> Gadfly McLellyn

There is always a price to pay for cheating death. So is Snape also
responsible for Harry's inner snake? (see quotes from OotP below). 
Was his brew a double cross or did it just have venomous side effects?
Is he afraid of what Harry is, or might become?

Jo

 
"Harry remembered the feeling that a dormant snake had risen in him
ready to strike". (OotP pg 730, UK ed)
 
"It was like something rose up inside me, like there's a snake inside
me.". (OotP pg 425, UK ed)
 
"Harry's temper rose to the surface like a snake rearing from the long
grass". (OotP pg 438, UK ed)
 
"Harry's anger at Snape continued to pound through his veins like
venom". (OotP pg 473, UK ed)
 
"The guilt filling the whole of harry's chest like some monsterous
weighty parasite, now writhed and squirmed".(OotP pg 724, UK ed)
 





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Mar  8 14:27:10 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 14:27:10 -0000
Subject: Snape A vampire?
In-Reply-To: <20040307175516.92141.qmail@web13507.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c2hvru+v950@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92458

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ms Mo Me 
<fauntine_80 at y...> wrote:
> I have been reading some of the recent posts on the
> theory that Snape is a Vampire.
> 
> Just based on how JKR writes her books, that is highly
> unlikely.
> 
> Also, there was much controversy at letting a Werewolf
> teach at Hogwarts because of his danger to others.  I
> am sure there would be much the same controversy if
> Snape was a vampire.  
> He is not JUST a teacher, he is also the house leader
> of Slytherin.  So, he has a little bit more
> responsibility than most of the other teachers. 
> 
> Plus, vampires are supposed to be dead but living,
> right?  So, there powers wouldn't be the same as a
> full wizards, right?  Well, Snape has already proven
> that he is a pretty well-versed and strong wizard. 
> This makes it even MORE unlikely that he would be a
> vampire.
> 
> Vampires also don't age.  We see Snape as a youth in
> the pensieve and he was pretty much the same
> personality/dress he is today.  I think his morose
> look just goes along with his personality.  He
> obviously has gotten older since then, but has
> maintained the same characteristics.  Therefore,
> again, I highly doubt he is a vampire.  

Hmmm....What if PoA had had a different ending? If JKR had 
decided to keep us in the dark about Lupin's lycanthropy for a 
few volumes instead of revealing it in the same book which 
introduced him, the list could have had a similar discussion 
about Remus.  

Without the revelation scenes in PoA, we'd have nothing to go on 
but  the clues: the werewolf essay, the unexplained bouts of 
illness and Snape's mysterious potion, the boggart which looks 
like a crystal ball but is never stated to be one, and most of all 
his name. 

But without the revelation scene we wouldn't have known that 
Lupin's bouts of illness occur at regular intervals, much less at 
the full moon. Listies would be pointing out that there's no  hair 
on his palms,  that he can touch silver, that there are already 
enough half-breeds and part-humans in the story with Hagrid, 
Maxime and Firenze, that Lupin has enough problems just 
dealing with ill health and losing all his childhood friends to 
Voldemort, that werewolves are traditionally dead but living, and 
that considering the uproar over Hagrid, the wizards would never 
tolerate a werewolf as a teacher or a student. And besides how 
could Lupin have attended Hogwarts as a werewolf cub?

You see the problem--while one might  suspect that Lupin was a 
werewolf based on the clues alone (and some clever readers 
did so), it would have been impossible to prove it. It's also 
impossible to know which popular beliefs are going to be woven 
into the story and which are going to be ignored or refuted.  
Furthermore, some common beliefs may be introduced into the 
story only to be proved erroneous later, like the werewolf cubs.

Pippin




From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Mon Mar  8 15:11:14 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 15:11:14 -0000
Subject: On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
In-Reply-To: <c2g7cn+bse1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2i2ei+cg4m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92459

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" <gbannister10 at a...> wrote:

> I agree completely. 
> 
> It's fear..... of the neighbours, of being odd, not the sort of 
> people we invite round for coffee. 
> 
> The irony is that,because Harry is treated in the way he is -  
> wearing Dudley's castoffs, glasses mended with Sellotape, looking 
> uncared for - that he becomes part of the oddness with which the 
> Dursleys do not want to be surrounded. They are creating their own 
> banana skins.....
> 
Kneasy:
True. They are conformists to the core. 
Harry turning into a local eyesore is not so much of a problem; though
he does not come up to the standards expected on the streets of a
genteel surburbia he can  be pigeon-holed by the neighbours into a
recognisable category - 'rough boy'. The uncontrollable nephew may
even elicit sympathy for the Dursleys."Such a trial, that boy." And he's
much easier to explain away as a potential tear-away than as a budding
wizard. 

 
> Geoff:
> But they obviously recognised the letter; Petunia's memory must have 
> been long enough. And their reaction was not one of regard for Harry 
> but of the need to protect themselves, their conformity and their 
> reputation as "those nice Dursleys at number 4".
> 
> 'I'm not having one in the house, Petunia! Didn't we swear when we 
> took him in we'd stamp out that dangerous nonsense?'"
> 
> Stamping out. Sounds a bit violent. A good reaction for someone 
> vicitmised, down-trodden and those under the jackboot of the despot? 
> Sounds more like the person on the other end of the jackboot....


Kneasy:
There's jackboots and jackboots. There's always a tendency to take
out frustrations on those less powerful than ourselves - it's a
natural though unfortunate tendency. Harry is victimised by the
victims (the Dursleys) of the victimiser (DD et al). Besides, Vernon's
using the everyday vocabulary of the political and opinion-forming
class. All rhetoric is cast in terms of struggle or violence "Stamp
out benefit fraud; smash poverty; strangle inflation; war on low pay" 
Gross mis-use of hyperbole, if you ask me. Vernon probably watches
too  many politicians on TV; causes brain rot, you know.

Lots of words have been posted pointing out that the books are
mostly written from Harry's viewpoint. Fair enough;  no problem.
Usually, this observation is made when posters want to discuss
how Sirius or Snape or DD feel about a given situation; again, 
fair enough. But in the books we see *one* Muggle family
caught up in the WW through no fault of their own. (Yes, there
are the Mr & Mrs Granger, but they are quickly whisked away
after every mention.) Vernon has without doubt been cast as an
unpleasant part of Harry's existence and we are expected to join
in the universal condemnation of Vernons behaviour and attitudes.
But it seems a valid exercise to consider  how the world looks
from the stand-point of a non-magical person who is used to
a measure of authority but is reduced to impotence in the face
of the WW. We may think "Serve him right." I doubt Vernon would. 

> Geoff:
> "Uncle Vernon, still ashen-faced but looking very angry, moved into 
> the firelight.
> 'He's not going' he said.
> Hagrid grunted.
> .....
> 'We swore when we took him in we'd put a stop to that rubbish,' said 
> uncle Vernon, 'swore we'd stamp it out of him! Wizard, indeed!'
> .....
> (Petunia) 'Then she met that Potter at school and they left and got 
> married and had you and of course I knew you'd be just the same, just 
> as strange, just as - as -abnormal...'"
> 
> This doesn't look like saving Harry fom this abhorrent fate. Looks a 
> bit more like the previously mentioned policy of not letting the 
> neighbours think you are anything bother than a decent, respectable, 
> middle-class suburban estate dweller.
> 

Kneasy:
Maybe, but not necessarily so.
Once again the conformist speaks, but this time from a sense of identity.
Conformity is the glue that identifies an individual with a society or sub-
group thereof. If you want to belong, you must conform. Vernon very
much wants to continue in his tight little sociological sub-class, without
it he would be nothing and nobody -  by his own standards. He wishes
that Harry would conform too, it would solve nearly all his problems, and
or so he thinks, it would solve Harry's problems as well. He's got limited
horizons, has Vernon and he sees everything within them as safe and
comprehensible. Outside is dis-order and danger. If Harry goes then
not only it reflect on Vernon but it will not be good for Harry. IMO he
truly believes this. Otherwise why not let him go? He could wash his
hands of him without a second thought.

We  don't know how well Vernon knew Lily and James. For sure it
wasn't as well as Petunia did, so most of his knowledge is hear-say.
But the one thing he does know is that they are dead, and it wasn't
an accident. They were possibly the only wizards he has known (IIRC
the Dursleys didn't go to the Potters wedding) and they died by 
violence, a by-product of their magical activities. How much detail
DD put into  that letter we don't know, but judging from Petunia's
reaction in OoP to DD's howler, it's likely that 'for his own safety'
was mentioned. Not a comfortable thought and one that festered
at the back of Vernon's mind for 9 years or so. Now the WW
has come back to claim its own. 

Vernon is a worried man. I don't blame him. 
 
 
> 
> Geoff:
> ...and in so doing, open Harry to the continued real dangers of 
> Stonewall High with its bullies who have picked on Harry and others 
> similar throughout their Junior School careers. But, of course, he 
> would doubtless say that a little roughing up at the secondary school 
> would help turn Harry into a real man and not a wimp. After all he 
> does possess the sensitivity of a high class pachyderm. But not 
> evil...
> 
Kneasy:
Again true. But are they determined to kill Harry at Stonewall High?
Anyway Harry saw S.H. as a refuge -  Dudders  and his gang weren't 
going there. He might even learn a useful trade - become a snake-charmer 
for example.






From oreobb28 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  8 03:26:34 2004
From: oreobb28 at yahoo.com (Cookie W.)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 19:26:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR chat--Snape the coward or the one left forever?
In-Reply-To: <c2g59t+tua6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040308032634.43709.qmail@web21410.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92460

has anyone thought of the fact that BAGMAN might be the cowardly DE and snape was one of the people voldie didn't say anything about for fear of exposing him???!!!


---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Search - Find what you?re looking for faster.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





From american_sweetie_xoxo at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  8 07:08:44 2004
From: american_sweetie_xoxo at yahoo.com (american_sweetie_xoxo)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 07:08:44 -0000
Subject: The Only One He Ever Feared
Message-ID: <c2h65s+didt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92461

So we all know that one cannot disapparate or apparate inside 
Hogwarts or the Ministry. Well I was a little confused at the battle 
between Voldemort and Dumbledore.....It says in the book 
that "Voldemort was standing on the plinth in the middle of the pool 
where so recently the five statues had stood." Then it goes on to 
say " Then he was gone." Ok what happen there? This is the same pool 
where Harry himself took the portkey back to Hogwarts as instructed 
by Dumbledore. Did Voldemort take the portkey? It seems to me that 
only Fudge and Dumbledore knew of that porkey's location so how would 
the V-man know where it was? Because to me it sounded like all the 
statues had to be removed from that pool before that portkey could be 
used and that the statues came to life to help Dumbledore by so 
doing making the portkey readily available. I know V-man has quite a few 
informants within the Ministry but this was something I wasn't sure 
of..if he disapparated or if he used to portkey to escape.....and 
one last question .....why didn't Voldemort just use one of the 3 
unforgiveable curses on Dumbledore? Is he protected from this curse? 







From spaebrun at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  8 14:02:33 2004
From: spaebrun at yahoo.com (spaebrun)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 14:02:33 -0000
Subject: Book six predicts . . . (Goblins)
In-Reply-To: <20040308051700.20615.qmail@web60103.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c2hudp+omr9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92462

owlery2003 wrote:
> LV has been aggressively recruiting. The DE's, the Giants, the Dementors and the 
Goblins.

Ah, yes! The Goblins. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that they have actually 
taken sides yet. 
I am pretty sure though that we will learn more about them soon, probably in book 6. 
They were mentioned several times in all books, but until now, we never met a fully-
fledged goblin character and the information was pretty general. So I could imagine 
Goblins, and probably Gringott's bank as well, being a major topic of the new book. 
Delving into the financial matters of wizardkind a bit, perhaps? ;)

 Reed








From dk59us at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  8 14:23:22 2004
From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 14:23:22 -0000
Subject: Toothless Old Boat Man (was Harry's 11th Birthday Return)
In-Reply-To: <c2fsih+8rte@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2hvkq+q0kf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92463

Sue Responds:
I doubt Harry was truly alone on the train.
<Snip lots of good points Eustace mostly agrees with...though the
notion of Harry being constantly shadowed pre-Hogwarts by undercover
Order members gets a bit creepy...did they infiltrate his grammar
school too?>

By the way, who knows who the toothless boat man was?

Eustace_Scrubb again:

Who knows indeed? Maybe it's Aberforth?

Cheers,

Eustace_Scrubb 





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Mar  8 15:21:21 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 15:21:21 -0000
Subject: Ron, Hermione and the Elves was Re: SHIP: Harry and Hermione
In-Reply-To: <c2e2ct+umgr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2i31h+rrqv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92464

I said:
 > > She's been trying for two books now to convince him  that 
> > they would get used to freedom if they had it. Muggle thinking, 
> > of course.  

Greatelderone:
> >Which in the five books is proving to be more advanced than 
the  wizard's unless slavery, institutionalized torture, lack of due 
process and legalized discrimination is your cup of tea. :)<<


More advanced? Erm, maybe in the five books. The existence of 
slavery in contemporary America was on the cover of the Sunday 
New York Times magazine just a few weeks ago. Whether it's 
due process to hold terror suspects in a remote island prison 
without benefit of trial or counsel is not an issue for fictional 
characters alone, more's the pity.  Neither is legalized 
discrimination.   But that's *not * what I meant by Muggle thinking.

I believe that Ron and Hermione both have the wrong end of the 
stick. It's narrow wizard thinking for Ron not to realize that House 
Elf submission isn't natural. But it's narrow Muggle thinking for 
Hermione to treat it as if it were the result of Muggle 
brainwashing. 

The House Elves, IMO, are *enchanted* into 
happiness with their dependent state. Hermione thinks that if 
they could only understand or  experience the rewards of 
freedom they would enjoy being free. But if their cravings for 
dependence are fed by magic, then  rewards conditioning can't 
cure them any more than it could lift the Imperius curse. 

Pippin
                        




From mnaperrone at aol.com  Mon Mar  8 15:15:10 2004
From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 15:15:10 -0000
Subject: Snape's position
In-Reply-To: <c2h5jv+kotb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2i2lu+f0hq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92465

> "suehpfan" wrote:
> > Thanks for the response (everyone). I am still bothered (as is at 
> > least one other poster I read tonight) about the reason Snape is 
> > still alive.  I think I must be giving him too much credit.  
There 
> is 
> > no other way for this all to work unless Voldemort and Malfoy 
both 
> > see Snape as less capable than most of us who read the books do.  
> > 
> 
> Neri:
> It is not something like "a DE of 
> the first circle" or  "a DE of the second circle". It is "my man in 
> Hogwarts" and "my agent inside the Order". LV might have additional 
> informers inside Hogwarts and the Order, of course, but still Snape 
> seems to be located in an extremely important place, which makes 
him 
> not only very valuable, put almost irreplaceable. This might 
explain 
> why he is still alive. What I'm trying to say is, even if Snape 
*is* 
> that important, he won't be told about anything unless it directly 
> pertains to his specific role. This is standard need-to-know 
> procedure, practiced by all terrorist organizations and especially 
> those centered around a single dictator.
> 
> Neri

You both make good points.  Of course, harking back to the 
earlier "which DE was Snape" post, I think a very likely explanation 
is that he somehow did manage to get to the circle of DEs.  Someone 
in an essay pointed out that at the tournament, one of the DEs 
present flipped a muggle in the air so that her dress fell down 
revealing her underwear - exactly what happened to Snape.  So that is 
another explanation of how Snape has still managed to be alive, which 
would also mean that there is a DE out there none of us knows about 
just yet.

As for his role as a DE, I tend to think its probably a combination 
of him not being close to Voldie in addition to the DEs being a "need 
to know" sort of organization.  Assuming Snape did turn against 
Voldie during the first war - and regardless of whether he's 
trustworthy now, there doesn't seem to be any reason to doubt DD's 
word that he spied for the Order then (presumably, he would have seen 
the results of Snape's spying and known Snape was reliable) - I have 
a hard time believing he occupied a central role.  He is so desirous 
of fame and recognition, I can't see him leaving an organization in 
which he occupied a role of prestige and power.

[Unless of course, he actually does have a real and sizable 
conscience . . . hard to believe at this point, although he did 
speak "softly" to Harry after Dursley's abuse came up during the 
occlumency lessons - probably the most genuinely nice thing he's 
done, but that's probably an issue for another thread.]

Ah, Snape, what a fun puzzle.  I wonder if the truth will be nearly 
as good as all our speculations? 

Ally





From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Mon Mar  8 15:24:16 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 15:24:16 -0000
Subject: Apparating into MoM [was: The Only One He Ever Feared]
In-Reply-To: <c2h65s+didt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2i370+ciqd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92466

american_sweetie wrote:
> So we all know that one cannot disapparate or apparate inside 
> Hogwarts or the Ministry. 

Susan:
*Do* we know that one cannot apparate or disapparate inside the 
Ministry?  I remember several times Hermione's exaspiration at having 
to tell people one can't apparate into Hogwarts.  But have we been 
told the same is true about the MoM?  Sorry--at work w/ no books to 
check.

Siriusly Snapey Susan






From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  8 15:25:18 2004
From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (Ms Mo Me)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 07:25:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Snape as the faithful servant
In-Reply-To: <1078709792.3359.48969.m3@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040308152518.10960.qmail@web13505.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92467

  
> > > Message: 1
> > >    Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 22:37:53 -0000
> > >    From: "jojobinks1983" <jojobinks1983 at y...>
> > > Subject: Snape as the faithful servant
> > > 
> > > Hi, just thought I'd complicate matters a
> little.
> > > Why does Crouch Junior!
> > > Moody have to be the "faithful servant" 

 if it were
> Snape
> > > then the rest of 
> > > the mysteries could be solved- his relationship
> with
> > > Malfoy, his 
> > > absence at the graveyard, even his little run in
> > > with Quirrell in 
> > > P/S. We know he's an occlumens so there is a
> real
> > > possibility that he 
> > > could hoodwink Voldie.



 Someone else on this board made a good point,
 though, about the faithful servant also was the one
to set up the portkey.
 
 Anyway, it is stated that not all the death-eaters
 know who eachother are.  Only Voldemort knows
 that.
 Since we do not know where Snape is going, we do
 not
 know if he is in direct contact with Voldemort or
 not.
  He could just be spying on some of the free
 death-eaters like Malfoy.  Malfoy still thinks
 Snape is on his side.  
 
  We also do not know if Voldemort is using Snape
 (full knowledge that Snape turned to the good side)
in an attempt to spy on the OotP without Snape
knowing....
 Sort of biding his time and not killing Snape
 right away so he can make use of him before killing
him.

 I still think Snape is a good guy.  We see one
 hint of understanding (if you could call it that)
when Snape taps into HP's mind during an occulmency
lesson. He stops after seeing HP being chased by a dog
and a boy laughing at him, and he asked him about it.

 Was Snape possibly, ever so slightly empathetic for a
 fraction of a second because of the way he was
 mistreated as a boy?
 

Also, Snape tries to save HP more than once. SS/PS he
chants to keep him on his broomstick.  He DOES agree
 to give him occulmency lessons.  He also thinks he is
 doing a good deed in PoA when he goes into the
 shrieking sack (even though I do believe he DID
 realize Sirius was innocent after a point)
 
 We DON'T know why (YET) Snape left Voldemort. 
 But, I think there is a very big story behind it,
which I would love to find out in the next books. 
 My theory is that Snape will be one of the characters
 to die at the very end.  Possibly to save Harry???
  I think this would be very poetic.  But, I have no
 hard core evidence to back up my theory, except that
it would be very emotional and JKR seems to like
plugging that in every once in a while.



 

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster
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From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Mar  8 15:39:45 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 15:39:45 -0000
Subject: JKR chat--Snape the coward or the one left forever?
In-Reply-To: <20040308032634.43709.qmail@web21410.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c2i441+ipf7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92468

>--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cookie W." <oreobb28 at y...> 
>wrote:
> has anyone thought of the fact that BAGMAN might be the cowardly 
>DE and snape was one of the people voldie didn't say anything about 
>for fear of exposing him???!!!

Potioncat here:
I think it is very possible that Snape wasn't one of the three 
mentioned.  It's possible he was. (My personal opinion changes every 
day.) That's what makes this so much fun and so crazy!  

In CoS one of the Hufflepuffs thought Harry was the one who was 
petrifying Muggle-borns.  He had great clues and gave a very good 
explanation and it all sounded very reasonable, except he didn't 
have all the information.  And neither do we.  I can't wait!!
Potioncat




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Mar  8 15:47:44 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 15:47:44 -0000
Subject: On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
In-Reply-To: <025B34C6-707A-11D8-8947-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com>
Message-ID: <c2i4j0+afnf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92469

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Barry Arrowsmith 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
> JKR dislikes Uncle Vernon? Can this be true?
> Surely there's a mistake here somewhere.
>


Oh well done, Kneasy!  And JKR may well have Vernon up to 
something dastardly in the next book. But I think she dislikes him 
most because he's not as much fun to write about anymore. 

As the odds shift in Harry's favor, giving Vernon his 
comeuppances can't be as much fun--JKR likes to root for the 
underdog as you say. Plus the other villains offer more 
compensation to  the author for the weariness of imagining  their 
unhealthy  mindset long enough to write about them. 

There's got to be some enjoyment in pretending to be a 
nefarious mastermind like Voldemort or  that ravaged 
seductress Bella, not to mention the various masters of sneaky 
subterfuge, from Quirrell to Fake!Moody, or the ever-slippery 
Lucius Malfoy. Even Draco has his wealth and his badboy 
persona.

 What's Vernon got? A mustache and a bad temper? Not much to 
envy there. He was probably more fun to write about when an 
intact family and a stable middle-class existence was as far 
beyond JKR's reality as the WW is from ours.

Pippin




From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  8 15:45:39 2004
From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (Ms Mo Me)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 07:45:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Crookshanks, an animagi/Mudungus
In-Reply-To: <1078709792.3359.48969.m3@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040308154539.91872.qmail@web13502.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92470

>Gadfly McLellyn writes:

>I still have suspicions that Crookshanks is an
>animagus.  

>Has anyone else noticed that the description of
>Mundungus Fletcher 
>and the description of Crookshanks are similar?


You really put a good perspective on things!  In PoA,
I often thought the same thing, except, I was thinking
he was a bad character until we found out about
Wormtail.
 Crookshanks is stated as being a highly intelligent
cat.  And, as we see from the other descriptions of
the animagi, they all seemed to have similar
characteristics of not acting like a normal animal. 
Crookshanks is often described as having an almost
human personality and responds to human's talking
(i.e. he knew the rat was in Ron's bag after Ron said
it)

When Hermione first goes to buy Crookshanks, the owner
says that he has been there for a while.  Why would
such a lovely cat be there for so long???...unless he
(if it is a real person or Mudungus) didn't want to be
bought until the right opportunity.  Also, he wanted
to attack Scabbers in the shop, LONG BEFORE he met
Sirius.  So, maybe he somehow knew before that
Wormtail was an animagi. 

It will be interesting to see in the next few books if
Crookshanks really IS an animagi.

But now I start to wonder, we have already seen 4
unregistered animagi, and Crookshanks would be #5. 
This starts to get me wondering, How many MORE
unregistered animagi are there in the WW?

~Mo


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster
http://search.yahoo.com




From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Mon Mar  8 16:28:35 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 08 Mar 2004 17:28:35 +0100
Subject: Crookshanks, an animagi/Mudungus
Message-ID: <20040308162835.5BE2EA7E32@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 92471

Ms Mo Me wrote:

>  Crookshanks is stated as being a highly intelligent
> cat.  And, as we see from the other descriptions of
> the animagi, they all seemed to have similar
> characteristics of not acting like a normal animal. 
> Crookshanks is often described as having an almost
> human personality and responds to human's talking
> (i.e. he knew the rat was in Ron's bag after Ron said
> it)
I think it may be his Kneazle part which is responsible for some of his actions. As for knowing what is being talked about, you don't need animagus to to it, common tabby is just enough, I can tell from plenty of personal experience.

[snip]
> But now I start to wonder, we have already seen 4
> unregistered animagi, and Crookshanks would be #5. 
> This starts to get me wondering, How many MORE
> unregistered animagi are there in the WW?

This is the very reason I think we'll not see anymore. Overabundance of animagi would make it very "cheap" from literary point of wiev.
But I think we'll see more of Crookshansk, either as a walking sneakoscope or Hermione's defender.

Cheers, Viridis
________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!




From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Mon Mar  8 16:38:18 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 08 Mar 2004 17:38:18 +0100
Subject: Ron, Hermione and the Elves
Message-ID: <20040308163818.20A26A7DF5@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 92472

> Pippin said:
> 
> The House Elves, IMO, are *enchanted* into 
> happiness with their dependent state. Hermione thinks that if 
> they could only understand or  experience the rewards of 
> freedom they would enjoy being free. But if their cravings for 
> dependence are fed by magic, then  rewards conditioning can't 
> cure them any more than it could lift the Imperius curse. 
> 
The problem is we still have no idea on true nature of elf-human Master bond. We can't really tell if it's slavery or serfdom, how it originated. Certainly enchanted into happiness is an interesting idea - any ideas how it could be done? At the birth or is it "supercharm" for the whole race? Or maybe it comes from the nature of the bond? Hm, many options.
It's also interesting how can such charm be broken - as it had to be done with Dobby, since he was not unhappy after being freed. Dobby-mutant?

Cheers, Viridis
P.S. I reserve for myself the title "Dobby - eigth passenger of Hogwarts' Express"
________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!




From nkafkafi at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  8 17:19:36 2004
From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 17:19:36 -0000
Subject: Ron, Hermione and the Elves
In-Reply-To: <20040308163818.20A26A7DF5@front.interia.pl>
Message-ID: <c2i9v8+q08b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92473

> > Pippin said:
> > 
> > The House Elves, IMO, are *enchanted* into 
> > happiness with their dependent state. Hermione thinks that if 
> > they could only understand or  experience the rewards of 
> > freedom they would enjoy being free. But if their cravings for 
> > dependence are fed by magic, then  rewards conditioning can't 
> > cure them any more than it could lift the Imperius curse. 
> > 
>Viridis:
 The problem is we still have no idea on true nature of elf-human 
Master bond. We can't really tell if it's slavery or serfdom, how it 
originated. Certainly enchanted into happiness is an interesting 
idea - any ideas how it could be done? At the birth or is 
it "supercharm" for the whole race? Or maybe it comes from the nature 
of the bond? Hm, many options.
> It's also interesting how can such charm be broken - as it had to 
be done with Dobby, since he was not unhappy after being freed. Dobby-
mutant?
> 

Neri:
I understand that House-elves who can be released from their slavery 
by presenting them with cloth is not JKR's sole imagination, but a 
respected tradition/legend/mythology. Perhaps this tradition also 
tells us about the charm that originated it? Does anybody know 
anything about House-elves in legend and where can I read about them? 
In the Web I can't find any non-Potterian house elves.

Neri 






From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Mar  8 17:32:53 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 17:32:53 -0000
Subject: Ron, Hermione and the Elves
In-Reply-To: <c2i9v8+q08b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2iao5+8f50@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92474


> Neri wrote:
> I understand that House-elves who can be released from their 
slavery 
> by presenting them with cloth is not JKR's sole imagination, but a 
> respected tradition/legend/mythology. Perhaps this tradition also 
> tells us about the charm that originated it? Does anybody know 
> anything about House-elves in legend and where can I read about 
them? 
> In the Web I can't find any non-Potterian house elves.


The tale I'm reminded of is "The Poor Shoemaker (Cobbler?) and the 
Elves."  In it, elves appear at night and make shoes for a poor 
cobbler. The shoes are beautiful and over time the shoemaker becomes 
rich. He and his wife discover the elves one night and see that they 
are dressed in rags.  They make new clothes and shoes and leave them 
as a present for the elves.  The elves are very happy with the new 
clothes.  They take the clothes and leave.  I never understood why 
they left. It seemed that the job was done and this was payment, or 
that having been discovered they had to leave.  But in the story, 
the shoemaker had not enslaved them, they had come secretly on their 
own.
Potioncat




From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Mon Mar  8 18:22:57 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 18:22:57 -0000
Subject: Snape's position
In-Reply-To: <c2h5jv+kotb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2idm1+up7m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92475

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" <nkafkafi at y...> 
snip
 In the extremely 
> centralist and secret organization of LV, I believe the DEs are 
> regarded by their roles rather than by their rank. LV thinks of 
them 
> as tools and weapons rather then officers and soldiers. Avery was 
the 
> DoM project man, for example. When Avery didn't deliver he was 
kicked 
> out and replaced by Rockwood. Even Malfoy was probably not told 
about 
> the project (not in detail, anyway) until he was needed for 
> organizing the raid itself. 

snip of excellent post addrssing the "need to know" policy of the DE's

Sue Again:

The only problem I see with this is that Malfoy must have known 
Voldemort was trying to get into the DoM to get the prophecy from the 
very beginning of book 5 because we have canon that puts him in the 
hallway and hexing the hidden Order member sitting there guarding the 
door. (Sorry, don't have my books for quotes)

It seems like Malfoy has pretty much all of the information, at this 
point anyway.  As far as Snape is concerned (I realize now I snipped 
that part...oops!) he is in a very important place for Voldemort to 
have access to DD, Harry and Hogwarts itself.  What I don't 
understand is how he could be serving the Order when he appears to  
have virtually no access to important information *from* Voldemort.  
And if he does, he isn't sharing (or, I know, I know, Puppetmaster!
DD).

No matter how you look at it somebody is going to be in *big* trouble 
because of Snape (sorry, *Professor* Snape).  Or Snape himself will 
take a very bad fall.  Either way, I don't think it is going to be 
pretty.

Sue




From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Mon Mar  8 18:26:22 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 18:26:22 -0000
Subject: Book six predicts . . Pink Panther & Harry Potter
In-Reply-To: <c2h7v4+keud@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2idse+pudc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92476

snip of post about occlumency
> Answer; take a cue for the Pink Panther, and teach Ron and Hermione
> the Legilemency Charm, and invite them to attack Harry's mind 
anytime,
> anywhere, anyway; and sooner or later he will either get so tired of
> it that he will block his mind our of shear irritation, or it will
> happen so often that he will learn by shear repetition.
> 
> In any event, the image of Ron and Hermione skulking around corners
> and sneaking up on Harry attacking his mind at very comedic and
> inopportune times struck me as funny.
> 
> I wonder if JKR is a Pink Panther fan?
> 
> Just a random thought.
> 
> bboy_mn

I hope she is, we don't have Fred and George at school anymore for 
comic relief, this could be good.  Harry could even start thinking 
about things that drive the other two crazy, just for fun...the 
possibilities are endless.

Sue




From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Mon Mar  8 18:42:21 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 18:42:21 -0000
Subject: Apparating into MoM [was: The Only One He Ever Feared]
In-Reply-To: <c2i370+ciqd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2ieqd+jngr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92477

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" 
<susiequsie23 at s...> wrote:
> american_sweetie wrote:
> > So we all know that one cannot disapparate or apparate inside 
> > Hogwarts or the Ministry. 
> 
> Susan:
> *Do* we know that one cannot apparate or disapparate inside the 
> Ministry?  I remember several times Hermione's exaspiration at 
having 
> to tell people one can't apparate into Hogwarts.  But have we been 
> told the same is true about the MoM?  Sorry--at work w/ no books to 
> check.
> 
> Siriusly Snapey Susan

   "You don't normally walk to work, do you?" Harry asked him, as 
they set off briskly around the square.
   "No, I usually apparate," said Mr. Weasley. (OotP US pg 124).

So there you have it, apparition into the MoM.
Sue




From tcyhunt at earthlink.net  Mon Mar  8 19:02:56 2004
From: tcyhunt at earthlink.net (Tracy Hunt)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 19:02:56 -0000
Subject: On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
In-Reply-To: <c2i4j0+afnf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2ig10+5jlm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92478

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> 
wrote:
> Oh well done, Kneasy!  And JKR may well have Vernon up to 
> something dastardly in the next book. But I think she dislikes him 
> most because he's not as much fun to write about anymore. 
> 
> As the odds shift in Harry's favor, giving Vernon his 
> comeuppances can't be as much fun--JKR likes to root for the 
> underdog as you say. Plus the other villains offer more 
> compensation to  the author for the weariness of imagining  their 
> unhealthy  mindset long enough to write about them. 
> 
> There's got to be some enjoyment in pretending to be a 
> nefarious mastermind like Voldemort or  that ravaged 
> seductress Bella, not to mention the various masters of sneaky 
> subterfuge, from Quirrell to Fake!Moody, or the ever-slippery 
> Lucius Malfoy. Even Draco has his wealth and his badboy 
> persona.
> 
>  What's Vernon got? A mustache and a bad temper? Not much to 
> envy there. He was probably more fun to write about when an 
> intact family and a stable middle-class existence was as far 
> beyond JKR's reality as the WW is from ours.
> 
> Pippin

Tcy:
While we're on the topic of good bad-guys...how good are some of 
them?  As the books get darker and the story gets jucier it seems to 
me that the bar is being raised for the bad guys.  We began with 
Vernon and then Quirrell.  Vernon was good because for what we knew 
of Harry, Vernon was quite an obstacle at the time.  Quirrell was a 
good bad guy for the first book - he came out of nowhere.  Then onto 
Tom Riddle - he filled in some backstory and also surprised us.  
Then we came to PoA and were introduced to Sirius and Pettigrew (I 
haven't forgotten those of you who like the idea of ESE!Lupin 
(Pippin), but for all we know to this point, I'll say he's a good 
guy).  Then we have Crouch, Jr. followed up by Umbridge and Bella.  
We also have the ever-present Lord Thingy, Lucius, Draco, DE's and 
Dementors.  

As the bar is raised, do those unable/unwilling to adapt drop from 
the list?  Vernon hardly seems worthy of the villan title when 
compared to Umbridge.  Draco's taunts seem so pitiful when compared 
to the capabilities of Bella.  They are more like annoying little 
gnats than real bad guys, anymore.  What place do they now hold?  

Tcy






From tim at marvinhold.com  Mon Mar  8 19:03:34 2004
From: tim at marvinhold.com (Tim)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 19:03:34 -0000
Subject: The Only One He Ever Feared
In-Reply-To: <c2h65s+didt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2ig26+qihm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92479

<american_sweetie_xoxo at y...> wrote:

> one last question .....why didn't Voldemort just use one of the 3 
> unforgiveable curses on Dumbledore? Is he protected from this curse?

LV did use the Avada Kedavra spell, that was the green jet that Fawkes swallowed. Fawkes 
then died and became a chick is normal for the Phoenix

Tim




From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Mon Mar  8 16:51:15 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 08 Mar 2004 17:51:15 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
Message-ID: <20040308165116.092CCA7E63@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 92480

> Kneasy:
>True. They are conformists to the core.  [snip]
> Vernon probably watches
> too  many politicians on TV; causes brain rot, you know.

There were many good points in the post I snipped so radically. I fully agree Vernon is worried, he feel overpowered by things which do not conform to his world, he is frightened the neighbours may fin the "abnormality" of his family.
This is all very human - unfortunately it's not very bright side of the human nature. I do not want to condemn Vernon more than I already did, just to point out that many of Venon's fears are of his own doing. If he realxed a bit, he could actually hide much better - allowing Harry to contact friends by phone would for example cut dramatically owl-appearance.
I think part of the Vernon "despicability" comes from "for whom much is given, much is expected". He's for sure well educated man, he could find the ways of understanding "the others" relatively easier than people of less means. However he chooses to close his mind and his views, which leads him into more trouble.
Could be TV influence - but again UK has one of the most open minded TVs of the world. So it's back to poor Vernon again. Wrong channels chosen, ol' pal.

Cheers, Viridis
________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!




From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Mon Mar  8 17:40:53 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 08 Mar 2004 18:40:53 +0100
Subject: Ron, Hermione and the Elves
Message-ID: <20040308174053.BB3AB30E47C@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 92481

> Neri:
> I understand that House-elves who can be released from their slavery 
> by presenting them with cloth is not JKR's sole imagination, but a 
> respected tradition/legend/mythology. Perhaps this tradition also 
> tells us about the charm that originated it? Does anybody know 
> anything about House-elves in legend and where can I read about them? 
> In the Web I can't find any non-Potterian house elves.

I think you may try looking for "brownies" - this was the name of English folklore crature of very similar function. That's what "Encyclopaedia Mythica" says about them:
"Brownie
Good-natured, invisible brown elves or household goblins who live in farmhouses and other country dwellings in Scotland. While people are asleep, they perform their labors for them. They are known to be protective creatures and they become attached to a certain place of family. Even if the family should move to another continent, the brownies will accompany them in their migration. If offered payment for their services or if they are treated badly, they disappear and are never seen again. 

The little hairy brownies, with their flat faces and pinhole nostrils, are not very attractive, but their happy smiles and extrovert characters makes up for that. The innocent nature of children allows them to see the brownies, but disbelieving adults will never get a glimpse of them. This however does not prevent the brownies from helping adults in countless minor ways."
http://www.pantheon.org/articles/b/brownie.html?esc

Cheers, Viridis

________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  8 19:10:02 2004
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 19:10:02 -0000
Subject: Ron, Hermione &the Elves - Everything you ever wanted to know...
In-Reply-To: <c2i31h+rrqv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2igea+3rl8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92482

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> wrote:
>
> ...edited...
> 
> The House Elves, IMO, are *enchanted* into 
> happiness with their dependent state. Hermione thinks that if 
> they could only understand or  experience the rewards of 
> freedom they would enjoy being free. But if their cravings for 
> dependence are fed by magic, then  rewards conditioning can't 
> cure them any more than it could lift the Imperius curse. 
> 
> Pippin

bboy_mn:

My opinions on House-elves are well documented, so for those who are
interested in those opinions and other long discussions on
house-elves, I submit the following -


Date:  Sat Jul 19, 2003  9:01 pm
Subject:  House-Elves & the Tie That Binds. (long)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/71752
Very indepth analysis of house-elves.

Date:  Wed Jul 30, 2003  1:16 am
Subject:  Re: Goblins and House-Elves? Wild and Domesticated?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/74080

Date:  Tue Oct 14, 2003  1:11 pm
Subject:  Re: Dumbledore's Army = House Elves
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/82881

Date:  Wed Jan 7, 2004  6:19 pm
Subject:  Re: house elves and laundry (house elves and goblins)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/88208
Another Q & A on Elves.

These cover my opinions on how and why house-elves are bound to there
families, the nature and history of house-elves, their ties to
existing folklore and mythology, the nature of wizard/Elf
relationships, and more.

In pondering the fate and nature of house-elves, ask yourself what a
house-elf would be likely to do if they were freed? In my estimation,
the first thing they would do is look for another family to serve. 

Service or if you will, servitude, is not the problem that needs to be
solved; abuse and mistreatment, and the generally self-serving
attituded of wizards are the real problems. In summary, the elves are
fine, it's the wizards that need to be fixed.

I can't say that my opinion is absolute truth regarding Elves, but I
think it is very reasonable speculation.

For those not inclined to read these somewhat long posts, here is the
summary paragraph from one of the above post.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

What elves want, although they don't know it in an articulate way yet,
and what Hermione should be working toward, is not freeing the elves
from service, but getting the wizard world to recognize elves as
sentient beings with the same rights, priviledges, and protections
under the law that wizards have. She should fight for laws that
protect elves from abuse and mistreatment, and laws that guarantee a
degree of commitment and loyalty from wizards. Commitments and
loyalies in the form of care in their old age, providing for the basic
life necessities of elves, and treating elves with dignity and a sense
of gratitude.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 


Aren't you glad you asked? ;)

bboy_mn








From nkafkafi at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  8 19:28:35 2004
From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 19:28:35 -0000
Subject: Snape's position
In-Reply-To: <c2idm1+up7m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2ihh3+pr89@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92483

> Sue Again:
> 
> The only problem I see with this is that Malfoy must have known 
> Voldemort was trying to get into the DoM to get the prophecy from 
the 
> very beginning of book 5 because we have canon that puts him in the 
> hallway and hexing the hidden Order member sitting there guarding 
the 
> door. (Sorry, don't have my books for quotes)
> 
> It seems like Malfoy has pretty much all of the information, at 
this 
> point anyway.  As far as Snape is concerned (I realize now I 
snipped 
> that part...oops!) he is in a very important place for Voldemort to 
> have access to DD, Harry and Hogwarts itself.  What I don't 
> understand is how he could be serving the Order when he appears to  
> have virtually no access to important information *from* 
Voldemort.  
> And if he does, he isn't sharing (or, I know, I know, Puppetmaster!
> DD).
> 
> No matter how you look at it somebody is going to be in *big* 
trouble 
> because of Snape (sorry, *Professor* Snape).  Or Snape himself will 
> take a very bad fall.  Either way, I don't think it is going to be 
> pretty.


Neri again:

I can't remember that part about Malfoy hexing the hidden Order 
member guarding the door. Who was this Order member?

Malfoy could be in on the DoM project, but I suspect he is not in on 
other ongoing projects LV has, which might prove crucial in Book 6. 
The importance of this need-to-know basis is now very clear when 
Malfoy is in the hands of the aurors and can be interrogated.

I didn't say, however, that Snape can't get a lot of useful 
information for the Order. I said that from LV he would get only 
directions regarding his specific role. These directions by 
themselves might be of critical importance. However, perhaps Snape 
was able to get more information by spending some quality time with 
DEs who are a bit less discrete. I already noted that Lucius Malfoy 
has a tendency to brag, and just sitting in the bar with Crabbe and 
Goyle beaching about mudbloods could prove fruitful. And naturally, 
Snape's hand might accidentally slip, so a drop or two of veritaserum 
might find their way to Crabbe's and Goyle's glasses...

Neri





From ilexrdh at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  8 19:28:43 2004
From: ilexrdh at yahoo.com (ilexrdh)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 19:28:43 -0000
Subject: What's to become of Winky??
Message-ID: <c2ihhb+7tmh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92484

I'll just toss this out there for your thoughts, so, here's my idea.

Winky was devoted to the Crouch family.  Do you think Dumbledore 
could persuade her to become the Weasleys' house elf (Ron said his 
mum always wanted/needed one).  That way, they (Weasleys) would have 
a bit of extra protection.  House elves having a different set of 
rules & magic, and knowing their protective nature, don't you think 
she'd make a great asset to the Weasley household?  AND since that 
pompous ass Percy will now have to swallow a LOT of crow and apologize 
to his whole family for being SUCH an IDIOT, that would be another 
bond that would link Winky to the Weasleys (Percy's loyalty to old 
man Crouch) which she surely knew about, as he came to the house and 
did Old man Crouch's bidding without question.

And Dobby would re-enforce that bond, since he's designated himself 
as Harry's protector (remember, just because Harry asked Dobby to 
promise never to try and save his life again at the end of CoS, Dobby 
never gave him a answer - yes or no) and Ron's Harry's best friend, so 
Winky would know the Weasley's are good wizards.

Anybody else ever think of this as a possible twist in the coming 
books? And Molly would get Winky off the butterbeer before quick, HA! HA!  




From annemehr at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  8 19:33:26 2004
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 19:33:26 -0000
Subject: The Only One He Ever Feared
In-Reply-To: <c2h65s+didt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2ihq6+knbe@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92485

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "american_sweetie_xoxo"
<american_sweetie_xoxo at y...> wrote:
> So we all know that one cannot disapparate or apparate inside 
> Hogwarts or the Ministry. Well I was a little confused at the battle 
> between Voldemort and Dumbledore.....It says in the book 
> that "Voldemort was standing on the plinth in the middle of the pool 
> where so recently the five statues had stood." Then it goes on to 
> say " Then he was gone." Ok what happen there? This is the same pool 
> where Harry himself took the portkey back to Hogwarts as instructed 
> by Dumbledore. Did Voldemort take the portkey? It seems to me that 
> only Fudge and Dumbledore knew of that porkey's location so how would 
> the V-man know where it was? Because to me it sounded like all the 
> statues had to be removed from that pool before that portkey could be 
> used and that the statues came to life to help Dumbledore by so 
> doing making the portkey readily available. I know V-man has quite a
few 
> informants within the Ministry but this was something I wasn't sure 
> of..if he disapparated or if he used to portkey to escape.....and 
> one last question .....why didn't Voldemort just use one of the 3 
> unforgiveable curses on Dumbledore? Is he protected from this curse?

Annemehr:
Good questions!  It's not really spelled out, but I think we can make
some pretty good guesses.  Here are mine:

***Entry into the ministry: In ch. 7, when Arthur took Harry into the
MoM via the telephone box/elevator, they arrived in the hall that had
the golden statues in it.  In the same hall, Harry also saw this:

"The walls on each side were paneled in shiny dark wood and had many
gilded fireplaces set into them.  Every few seconds a witch or wizard
would emerge from one of the left-hand fireplaces with a soft
/whoosh;/ on the right-hand side, short queues of wizards were forming
before each fireplace, waiting to depart."

Also:
"Glittering jets of water were flying from the ends of the two wands,
the point of the centaur's arrow the tip of the goblin's hat and each
of the house-elf's ears, so that the tinkling hiss of falling water
was added to the pops and cracks of Apparators and the clatter of
footsteps as hundreds of witches and wizards [...] strode toward a set
of golden gates at the far end of the hall."

The set of golden gates leads to the elevators going to the rest of
the MoM.  So apparently everyone *does* Floo, apparate, or take the
visitors elevator into this one hall in order to enter the MoM, which
makes sense for security reasons. I realise you've already said this,
but, hey, I have my book, so why not give the canon reference?  :-)

***The battle between LV and DD:  When Voldemort disappeared from the
plinth (from inside the fountain's water in which DD had trapped him),
I assumed he had indeed apparated to somewhere out of sight.  Exactly
where he went, I'm not sure -- somewhere he could safely leave his
body? -- because just a few seconds later he was possessing Harry.  He
did *not* use a portkey, however, because Dumbleodore hadn't created
it yet.

It is only after Voldemort and Bellatrix are gone, and Dumbledore has
promised Fudge to give him a half hour's worth of explanation, that he
*creates* the portkey to send Harry back to Hogwarts:

"[Dumbledore] walked away from the pool to the place where the golden
wizard's head lay on the floor.  He pointed his wand at it and
muttered, /'Portus.'/  The head glowed blue and trembled noisily
against the wooden floor for a few seconds, then became still once more.
"'Now see here, Dumbledore!' said Fudge, as Dumbledore picked up the
head and walked back to Harry carrying it.  'You haven't got
authorizaton for that Portkey![...]'"

So while Voldemort was still around, there wasn't any Portkey yet. 
It's not the location that's the portkey, it was the broken statue
head itself that Dumbledore turned into a portkey when he wanted to
send Harry back to Hogwarts quickly.  Dumbledore himself Flooed back
to his office, but I suppose Harry couldn't have Flooed into the
headmaster's office, so DD had to create a portkey for him to get there.

***The unforgivables:  Voldemort did try to AK Dumbledore several
times.  There were several jets of green light he fired at him. 
Fawkes swallowed one of them and burst into flame and became a little
chick again.  Dumbledore was just too quick to be cursed like that.

Hope that helps!  :-)

Annemehr
who tried to get a question on the chat about trying to portkey and
Floo in and out of Hogwarts...





From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Mon Mar  8 19:38:52 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 19:38:52 -0000
Subject: Ron, Hermione and the Elves
In-Reply-To: <c2i9v8+q08b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2ii4c+v3tq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92486

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" <nkafkafi at y...> wrote:
> I understand that House-elves who can be released from their slavery 
> by presenting them with cloth is not JKR's sole imagination, but a 
> respected tradition/legend/mythology. Perhaps this tradition also 
> tells us about the charm that originated it? Does anybody know 
> anything about House-elves in legend and where can I read about them? 
> In the Web I can't find any non-Potterian house elves.
> 

As I understand it, they are based on the 'Brownie" myth.

These are reputed to be attached to households (the building, not the
persons) and appear at night to do all the chores. In some variants they
can only be seen by children. If offered food or gifts they vanish, never to
return. (This is the Scottish version)

The English variant is Robin Goodfellow and interestingly, Brewers Dict. of
Phrase and Fable states "...he is supposed to busy himself on little jobs for
the family *over which he presides.* (My emphases) He is very definitely 
not a slave, but the master of the house.

Whichever you take, the work done is voluntary and they are not capable of
being coerced, bribed or enslaved. They make their own decisions.

This fits in well with those that have long theorised that House Elves are
not slaves; they're too magical. There is some sort of complex relationship
going on that we have not been told about. But it's significant that neither
Hagrid (old softy for any creature) nor DD (moral rectitude personified) will
back Hermione in her crusade. They know something we don't.

Kneasy





From manawydan at ntlworld.com  Mon Mar  8 19:42:23 2004
From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 19:42:23 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
References: <1078709792.3359.48969.m3@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c40545$7b0194c0$c8e76151@f3b7j4>

No: HPFGUIDX 92487

Kneasy wondered:
>Has anyone ever considered the situation from Vernon's viewpoint?

>We  don't have fat dossier  on Vernon, just a few facts from which we
>can base some reasonable suppositions. Family man, wife and one
>child, works hard, probably at senior middle management level, sole
>wage-earner in the household, lives in the suburbs, a conformist.

It's interesting to speculate on Vernon and Petunia's courtship, of course.
There are, sadly, many things we don't know: whether Lily or Petunia is the
older, when exactly V & P met, how long they were courting before they
married, and how long married before little Dudley came along.

Also when exactly the Evans parents died. We know from last week's chat that
JKR has said there's no significance to their death from a plot point of
view (damn, that's one of my pet theories down the dunny) but it's also
almost certain that their deaths were untimely (after all, they couldn't
have been so old when Lily was born to die of old age when she was a
teenager/young adult).

Petunia gives the impression of being older than she necessarily is, but
maybe she actually is the elder sister, jealous of Lily for her magical
talent, resentful of her parents for fostering Lily. Vernon must also be
sufficiently mature in years to have got to the kind of position that he has
in Grunnings by the time that Harry is foisted on them.

Was the internal tension between Lily and Petunia an Issue when V & P were
courting? It sounds very much as if it was. So Vernon had a good reason to
be against wizardry and magic, he was taking the side of the girl he loved.

Vernon also can't be _that_ bad at his job. When we meet him he's in a
management position, sufficiently senior to do a lot of shouting, in a
manufacturing company. And the company survives not one but two severe
slumps in manufacturing, the ones in the 1980s and 1990s, and is still going
as we speak. That's no mean feat and probably needed some pretty good
business acumen on Vernon's part. Not, though, prospering enough for the
Dursleys to trade up from Privet Drive to somewhere more exclusive, he's
obviously not made it on to the Board.

And as you say, his cosy little world gets shaken at intervals by the one
thing that he and Petunia have tried to put out of sight for x number of
years.

That's the good side. And I'm sure that if Harry had never come along, he'd
have lived his unremarkable suburban life and died an unremarkable suburban
death.

Enough to put him on the side of the good guys? Probably not. But a person
in his own right.

Interesting that JKR hates him more than Umbridge.

Cheers

Ffred

O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon
Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion
Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri




From tmar78 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  8 19:17:24 2004
From: tmar78 at yahoo.com (tyler maroney)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 11:17:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Apparating at the Ministry
In-Reply-To: <1078770438.4126.28696.m11@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040308191724.86023.qmail@web14108.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92488

Susan:
*Do* we know that one cannot apparate or disapparate
inside the Ministry?  

Tyler:
I don't think the same is true w/ the MoM.  After all,
after DD VS. LV,  doesn't Dawlish (sp?) tell Fudge
that he saw LV disapparate out of the ministry with
Bellatrix?



=====
"It is our choices that show what we truly are,  far more than our abilities."

-Albus Dumbledore




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Mon Mar  8 20:04:47 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 20:04:47 -0000
Subject: Apparating at the Ministry
In-Reply-To: <20040308191724.86023.qmail@web14108.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c2ijkv+rg3l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92489

Susan:
> > *Do* we know that one cannot apparate or disapparate
> > inside the Ministry?  
 
Tyler:
> I don't think the same is true w/ the MoM.  After all,
> after DD VS. LV,  doesn't Dawlish (sp?) tell Fudge
> that he saw LV disapparate out of the ministry with
> Bellatrix?

Susan:
Yes, as Suehpfan pointed out in 92477:
>"You don't normally walk to work, do you?" Harry asked him, as
>they set off briskly around the square.
>"No, I usually apparate," said Mr. Weasley. (OotP US pg 124).

>So there you have it, apparition into the MoM.

This is what I had thought, but w/o the books handy, I didn't want to 
sound too certain of it. :-)  

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From capehoneysuckle at earthlink.net  Mon Mar  8 21:11:09 2004
From: capehoneysuckle at earthlink.net (capehoneysuckle)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 21:11:09 -0000
Subject: Squibs?
In-Reply-To: <c2he1b+tt0g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2inhd+ii94@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92490

ladyramkin2000 wrote:
> I've always blithely assumed that the people like the witch who 
> brings round the trolley on the express or the barman in the Leakey 
> Cauldron  are all squibs, since they are plainly part of the WW but 
> are doing rather mundane jobs.  However, someone has suggested to me 
> that they may actually be people who, for some reason or other, have 
> failed their OWLS and have left school without qualifications.Is this 
> possible?  Would they have been chosen in the first place if their 
> magical potential is so weak?  And where does that leave people like 
> Madam Rosmerta, who is strong and capable in her job and doesn't 
> appear to need magic (or does she?)
> Sylvia (who needs to think about something other than The Chat)

The witch with the food cart is specifically referred to as a "witch",
not a woman, squib, or muggle. POA Bloomsbury paperback p.62: "At one
o'clock the plump witch with the food trolley arrived at the
compartment door." And Tom, the Leaky Cauldron barman, is shown doing
magic. In the same book, p. 37: "Tom clicked his fingers, a fire burst
into life in the grate, and he bowed himself out of the room." Neither
of these two are squibs. OWLs may not be necessary for some wizard
jobs. One of the brochures with career advice is called, "Do you have
what it takes to train security trolls?" It could be one of the jobs
that requires only a thick skull.

Honey




From gbannister10 at aol.com  Mon Mar  8 21:27:32 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 21:27:32 -0000
Subject: On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
In-Reply-To: <c2i2ei+cg4m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2iog4+tgqs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92491

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:

Geoff:
> 
> > I agree completely. 
> > 
> > It's fear..... of the neighbours, of being odd, not the sort of 
> > people we invite round for coffee. 
> > 
> > The irony is that,because Harry is treated in the way he is -  
> > wearing Dudley's castoffs, glasses mended with Sellotape, looking 
> > uncared for - that he becomes part of the oddness with which the 
> > Dursleys do not want to be surrounded. They are creating their 
own 
> > banana skins.....


> Kneasy:
> True. They are conformists to the core. 
> Harry turning into a local eyesore is not so much of a problem; 
though
> he does not come up to the standards expected on the streets of a
> genteel surburbia he can  be pigeon-holed by the neighbours into a
> recognisable category - 'rough boy'. The uncontrollable nephew may
> even elicit sympathy for the Dursleys."Such a trial, that boy." And 
he's
> much easier to explain away as a potential tear-away than as a 
budding
> wizard. 

Geoff again:

Yes but it doesn't excuse the way in which they treated him. They 
have turned him into a "local eyesore" and made him a deeply unhappy 
boy to punish him because his parents had the temerity to get 
themselves blown up and the poor Dursleys had to take Harry under 
their wing. 


> Kneasy:

<snip>

> Lots of words have been posted pointing out that the books are
> mostly written from Harry's viewpoint. Fair enough;  no problem.
> Usually, this observation is made when posters want to discuss
> how Sirius or Snape or DD feel about a given situation; again, 
> fair enough. But in the books we see *one* Muggle family
> caught up in the WW through no fault of their own. (Yes, there
> are the Mr & Mrs Granger, but they are quickly whisked away
> after every mention.) Vernon has without doubt been cast as an
> unpleasant part of Harry's existence and we are expected to join
> in the universal condemnation of Vernons behaviour and attitudes.
> But it seems a valid exercise to consider  how the world looks
> from the stand-point of a non-magical person who is used to
> a measure of authority but is reduced to impotence in the face
> of the WW. We may think "Serve him right." I doubt Vernon would. 

Geoff again:

They are only assuming at the start that Harry might show magical 
powers. And why has he shown them before his 11th birthday? Because 
he has done it subconsciously when he is under threat - the haircut, 
the brown jumper with orange bobbles, the boys in the playground, the 
glass vanishing after he was pushed.....

If Vernon and Petunia had had a little more thought, if Vernon's 
actions had been less of a high class pachyderm and more of an 
understanding person, he might have treated Harry on more of an equal 
footing with Dudley. As a result we would have had a Harry who was 
not a waif and stray and Dudley would not have developed into a 
tantrum-throwing, bullying "pig in a wig". Mark you, we might not 
have had such an interesting series of books......   :-)

> > Geoff:

<snip>

> > This doesn't look like saving Harry fom this abhorrent fate. 
Looks a 
> > bit more like the previously mentioned policy of not letting the 
> > neighbours think you are anything bother than a decent, 
respectable, 
> > middle-class suburban estate dweller.
> > 
> 
> Kneasy:
> Maybe, but not necessarily so.
> Once again the conformist speaks, but this time from a sense of 
identity.
> Conformity is the glue that identifies an individual with a society 
or sub-
> group thereof. If you want to belong, you must conform. Vernon very
> much wants to continue in his tight little sociological sub-class, 
without
> it he would be nothing and nobody -  by his own standards. He wishes
> that Harry would conform too, 

<snip>

Geoff:
See my comment previously. Harry might well have conformed under 
those circumstances. His non-conformity is often the result of his 
subconscious protection reflexes kicking in when /someone else/ 
doesn't conform to reasonable behaviour.

Kneasy:
> If Harry goes then
> not only it reflect on Vernon but it will not be good for Harry. 
IMO he
> truly believes this. Otherwise why not let him go? He could wash his
> hands of him without a second thought.

Geoff:
And if it came out that the family had shuffled him off into care? It 
wouldn't help their caring, conformist image.

<snip>

Kneasy:
> Vernon is a worried man. I don't blame him. 
>  
>  
> > 
> > Geoff:
> > ...and in so doing, open Harry to the continued real dangers of 
> > Stonewall High with its bullies who have picked on Harry and 
others 
> > similar throughout their Junior School careers. But, of course, 
he 
> > would doubtless say that a little roughing up at the secondary 
school 
> > would help turn Harry into a real man and not a wimp. After all 
he 
> > does possess the sensitivity of a high class pachyderm. But not 
> > evil...
> > 
> Kneasy:
> Again true. But are they determined to kill Harry at Stonewall High?
> Anyway Harry saw S.H. as a refuge -  Dudders  and his gang weren't 
> going there. 

Geoff:
Only Dudley and Piers Polkiss I think... (PS "The Letters from No 
One" p.28 UK edition). So, many of the other pupils from Harry's 
Junior school would be going and since they were already conditioned 
to picking on him, it would probably have continued. Kill him? Not 
deliberately but there have been two cases in the last few months of 
pupils being killed in playground scuffles in the UK and I know of a 
case involving a boy in a youth club we ran in London 30 years or so 
ago.

On the DVD of COS, there are a series of interviews with members of 
the cast and it is interesting to see what Fiona Shaw, who plays 
Petunia, has to say:

"The extraordinary things about the Dursleys is that they are very 
funny because they are very recognisable social aspirers and full of 
that kind of dogged, low-ceiling imagination which means they can't 
see beyond their material dreams".

The sort who cannot see the human needs of a child put into their 
care who is the recipient of their displeasure as a result. The sort 
who close the door in the faces of folk collecting for Christian Aid.

I wonder if they are also the sort who take everything that is said 
literally and fail completely to see when there is an element of leg-
pulling going on?   :-|




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Mon Mar  8 22:08:39 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 22:08:39 -0000
Subject: On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
In-Reply-To: <000a01c40545$7b0194c0$c8e76151@f3b7j4>
Message-ID: <c2iqt7+u2vc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92492

Ffred wrote: 
> Interesting that JKR hates him more than Umbridge.

Susan now:
Just to nitpit a bit, JKR did not use the word "hate".  What was 
said was:

LRGS School: Which character do you most dislike ? 
JK Rowling replies -> Probably Uncle Vernon. 

So she was answering which character she most *dislikes*...and said 
*probably* Uncle Vernon.  I would argue that there is a difference 
between hate & dislike.

One wise lister [I'm sorry, I've forgotten who!] suggested that JKR 
might also have been speaking about her dislike of *writing* about 
Vernon.  Voldy and Lucius and Bellatrix are pretty exciting, even if 
they're evil, and Vernon...well, Vernon is just kinda nasty.  
Perhaps understandably nasty some of the time [nod to Kneasy], but 
pretty cartoonish and 2-D, and not much character development 
happening lately.

Siriusly Snapey Susan







From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  8 22:11:04 2004
From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (Phyllis)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 22:11:04 -0000
Subject: Snape's position
In-Reply-To: <c2ihh3+pr89@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2ir1o+6dg2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92493

Neri wrote:
 
> I can't remember that part about Malfoy hexing the hidden Order 
> member guarding the door. Who was this Order member?

Sturgis Podmore.  The Daily Prophet reports that he was arrested 
for "Trespass at the Ministry" for trying to force through a locked 
door.  While, IIRC, this isn't stated anywhere in OoP, the suspicion 
is that Lucius Malfoy put him under the Imperius Curse to try to get 
him to retrieve the prophecy.

~Phyllis




From lliannanshe at comcast.net  Mon Mar  8 22:28:48 2004
From: lliannanshe at comcast.net (Lliannanshe)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 22:28:48 -0000
Subject: Snape's position
In-Reply-To: <c2ir1o+6dg2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2is30+o3il@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92494

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Phyllis" 
<erisedstraeh2002 at y...> wrote:
> Neri wrote:
>  
> > I can't remember that part about Malfoy hexing the hidden Order 
> > member guarding the door. Who was this Order member?
> 
> Sturgis Podmore.  The Daily Prophet reports that he was arrested 
> for "Trespass at the Ministry" for trying to force through a locked 
> door.  While, IIRC, this isn't stated anywhere in OoP, the 
suspicion 
> is that Lucius Malfoy put him under the Imperius Curse to try to 
get 
> him to retrieve the prophecy.
> 
> ~Phyllis

I thought that Malfoy put the curse on Bode.

OOP US ED pg 585
"Bode would have known he could not....Undoubtedly this is why he 
fought so hard against Malfoy's Imperius Curse"

Lliannanshe




From stevejjen at earthlink.net  Mon Mar  8 23:36:09 2004
From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 23:36:09 -0000
Subject: On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
In-Reply-To: <025B34C6-707A-11D8-8947-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com>
Message-ID: <c2j019+agrh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92495

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Barry Arrowsmith 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
> All well and good. Young Dudders appears on the scene. Everything
> in the garden is lovely and then  - calamity. A bundle on the door-
step
> one night with a covering letter. Just what the letter said we 
don't 
> know,
> but you can bet your boots the Dursley's hearts sank into theirs.
> 
> A cuckoo child, foisted on to them by those they most fear. "Look 
after
> him." -  was the additional phrase "or else" plainly stated or 
just 
> implied?
> Naturally Harry is not welcome and with his presence their fear 
returns;
> is he going to be like his parents, showing powers that the 
Dursleys do
> not comprehend and so dread? 


Jen: Personally, I'm hoping the Dursley's decision to take Harry in 
will be a little less fear and loathing and a little more 
manipulation and mayhem. "What's in it for us?" Vernon asked, 
quietly. 

You make a persuasive point, though, Vernon-as-poster-child for the 
Muggle Protection Act is really a compelling idea when you think 
about it.


Kneasy: 
> They give Harry a hard time, well, fairly hard, it's not as if 
he's 
> thrashed
> thrice weekly. An old instinct to try to drive out evil by 
imposing 
> virtue?
> "Best pretend we know nothing about it" is the attitude they take -
 
> "with
> luck he may not be a changeling after all, and if we forbid all 
> references
> to this horror perhaps it won't show itself." But one day their 
hopes 
> come
> crashing down,  felled by  the weight of a letter through the 
> letter-box.

Jen: Or they figure a little starvation, occasional thrashing and 
the locked cupboard make it bearable for themselves while they have 
to offer houseroom? In return, they can live completely Wizard-free 
lives! Maybe they will even get their memories erased of this whole 
shebang if they just keep Harry alive until a certain age! The 
possibilities for their bribery are endless, since they are after 
all bribing Wizards.

Hey, I can dream can't I ?!? A few threats back and forth and some 
blackmailing would be more exciting.

Jen, hoping Vernon doesn't wind up on a pedestal in the end....




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  8 23:42:07 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 23:42:07 -0000
Subject: JKR chat--Snape the coward or the one left forever?
In-Reply-To: <c2dfg2+7t9c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2j0cf+9mqk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92496

Puja:
I agree with Carol that the coward must be Karkaroff coz he fled 
when the scar burned and "one who has left forever" (Snape- coz we 
know he has redeemed himself to Dumbledore)
 
I am just wondering, if LV knows that Snape is the one who has 
left forever then what exactly is Snape doing for the Order? He 
could not be acting spy for Dumbledore coz that would be risking 
his life going near LV or any other death eaters. What do you 
think could be his work?
 
Susan:
LOL, Puja.  Your questions here at the end are part of the reason I 
suggested Snape's being the coward & not the one who'd left 
forever. :-)  Snape tells Harry during occlumency lessons that it is 
his job to find out what Voldy's up to.  I took that to mean he is a 
spy for the Order. And the only ways I could see that Snape would be 
in a position to spy are:
 
1) he's a vampire [not!!];
2) he somehow managed to get to the graveyard that night and so was 
none of the three Voldy mentioned [unlikely, in my eyes];
3) he was the coward who DID take his punishment and was allowed 
back in the fold;
 
The only other possibility I can imagine would be that he was indeed 
the one Voldy believed was gone forever & who'd have to be killed... 
but that *somehow* [how?!?] he was given the chance to talk his way 
out of it.
 
Siriusly Snapey Susan

As I've already indicated, I agree with possibility number four. Snape
must have convinced someone (in my view, Lucius Malfoy) that he had
very good reasons for not being at the graveyard (beginning with the
impossibility of apparating from Hogwarts and having to be with DD at
the Tri-Wizard Tournament). If anyone could convince Malfoy (and,
through him, LV) that Snape is not a traitor to LV, it would be Snape
himself. So I *do* think that Snape is spying on the DEs either
directly or indirectly and that he is both brave and clever enough to
manage that seemingly impossible feat. (IMO, he probably enjoys the
challenge of outwitting two very dangerous enemies, one of them his
former friend--even though, unlike Sirius, he doesn't enjoy risk for
its own sake.)

As I've said, I think his position as seeming spy for Voldemort and
real spy for Dumbledore is now in great danger of being exposed
because both LV and Malfoy will (rightly) suspect him of having acted
for the Order instead of for them in the MoM affair. Fortunately we
have JKR's word (in an interview) that Snape will play a crucial role
(for good or ill) in Book Seven, so we know that somehow his wits and
other resources will get him through the coming crisis. Will he become
a substitute father figure to Draco? I can't wait to see.

Carol




From lizvega2 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  8 23:46:08 2004
From: lizvega2 at yahoo.com (lizvega2)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 23:46:08 -0000
Subject: Muggle's get special visitors
Message-ID: <c2j0k0+cm04@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92497

O.K., so the muggle children get special visitors, in lieu? of 
letters, to explain the magical world to their parents. Since we 
know that it's not the ministry sending the letters to the 11 year 
olds, we must assume that Hogwarts is also sending the messengers. 

Who? I know that Hagrid was sent to get Harry, but, surely, he would 
not be sent to the other muggle's homes. Imagine Hagrid squeezing 
through the Granger's door, and talking to her dentist parents? I 
don't think so. I think Hagrid was sent for Harry, because 1) He 
already knew Harry's situation, and 2) Vernon and Petunia didn't 
need a damned thing explained to them, other than a guide on moral 
behavior, but that's for another topic. 

So, who is sent to the other children's homes? It would have to be 
somebody that could pass as a muggle, at first glance, anyway. Would 
it be McGonagall? She sends the letters...although, Jo did say 
visitor(s) plural. So, if it is McGonagall, who goes with her?




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Tue Mar  9 00:12:49 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 00:12:49 -0000
Subject: JKR chat--Snape the coward or the one left forever?
In-Reply-To: <c2j0cf+9mqk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2j261+h8qs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92498

JustCarol wrote:
> As I've said, I think his position as seeming spy for Voldemort and
> real spy for Dumbledore is now in great danger of being exposed
> because both LV and Malfoy will (rightly) suspect him of having 
> acted for the Order instead of for them in the MoM affair. 

Susan:
Carol, I'm intrigued as to why you believe Snape's now in great 
danger of being exposed because of the MoM affair.  Do you think 
Voldy & Lucius believe DD only came because Snape must have told him 
what was happening?  

I'm not sure I can see an obvious 1+1=2 thing here for Voldy [DD 
shows up + Snape is at Hogwarts = Snape is double-crossing Voldy].  
This may be because I've been persuaded that Neri is right about 
Snape & other DEs working on a Need-to-know basis and Voldy may have 
believed Snape didn't even know about the MoM plans.  

Can you say more?  Is there another reason they would have of 
blaming him for things that I'm not seeing?

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  9 00:46:14 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 00:46:14 -0000
Subject: Ginny's development (was: SHIP: Harry and Hermione)
In-Reply-To: <c2dr3j+2fhi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2j44m+9thq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92499

> Hickengruendler:
> 
> Yes, but this is not "Harry Potter's diary", but a fictional tale. I 
> can fully understand, that the character Harry isn't able to see the 
> real Ginny, because of her crush, but it is JK Rowling's job, to make 
> Ginny's development believable to the reader, and in my case she 
> failed. I normally think she's excellent in the characterisations of 
> the books, and that's why the way Ginny's development was done, was a 
> negative surprise for me. Harry also didn't see much of Neville in 
> the previous books, yet there were some tidbits, that suggested to 
> the reader, that Neville is more, than he seems. We see Neville 
> standing up to Crabbe and Goyle and later to the trio, we see Neville 
> trying to warn his friends, that Draco wanted to lure them in the 
> trap, we see Neville admitting, that it was him, who lost the 
> passwords.<snip>
> Yes, we were told a lot about how cool Ginny is. But there's one 
> rule: "Show not tell". And in Ginny's case I think there was to much 
> telling, and not enough showing. <snip>

Carol responds:
In the first book, we see very little of Ginny, who is basically
presented as a ten-year-old child who's too young to go to Hogwarts.
But in CoS, just before she has the misfortune to be chosen as the
person to receive Tom Riddle's diary in her cauldron, she does show
some of the spirit that shows she belongs in Gryffindor and is
potentially an interesting character in her own right. 

"'*Famous* Harry Potter,' said [Draco] Malfoy. 'Can't even go into a
*bookshop* without making the front page.'
"'Leave him alone, he didn't want all that!' said Ginny. It was the
first time she had spoken in front of Harry. She was glaring at
Malfoy." (CoS, Am. ed. 61)

As far as I can see from that scene, Ginny is both brave and fiercely
loyal. And she's eleven years old at the time. I agree that we see
early on that Neville is braver than he thinks he is. But I also think
we see just enough of Ginny that we need not judge her as weak just
because she was chosen by Lucius Malfoy to be Tom Riddle's victim. And
when she stands up to Harry and points out to him (rather sharply)
that she can tell him whether he's being possessed or not, we see that
she has learned from that experience, and though it's still painful to
her, she is not afraid to talk about it when it can be useful to
someone she considers a friend (even a "friend" like Harry who does
not yet return her affection). And I really like the way she stands up
for Neville in OoP. (I actually hope she ends up with him rather than
Harry though I'm not going to argue on that topic.)

Carol, who is not a SHIPPER and is too old to care about adolescent
relationships but had to put in a good word for Ginny




From steve at hp-lexicon.org  Tue Mar  9 00:53:15 2004
From: steve at hp-lexicon.org (hp_lexicon)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 00:53:15 -0000
Subject: Weasleys' ages (still)
In-Reply-To: <c2dck7+kchn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2j4hr+oop4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92500

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "capehoneysuckle" 
<capehoneysuckle at e...> wrote:
> Once more into the breach!
> It seems that we all agree that JKR has difficulties with numbers 
here
> and there. She has carefully thought out her plots, but numbers and
> dates that are not important to the plot are a bit fuzzy in her 
mind.> 

Well put. I think the only thing we can say for sure from her 
comment is that there isn't a large gap between Percy and Charlie, 
but that the gap is fairly small (3-4 years).

> 3) Assume Percy's birthday is just after the cutoff date for 
school,

Unfortunately, if we are to believe the clues in the books, Percy's 
birthday is almost certainly in the summer, and he is young for his 
year at Hogwarts. This isn't for sure; it's based on when he gets 
his Apparating license in GF--two weeks before the World Cup--which 
would mean when he turns 17. For the twins, this was during the 
summer before their seventh year. For Percy, it was after his 
seventh year. Of course there are a lot of factors which could be 
involved here. Percy might not have taken his Apparition test right 
away when he turned 17, for example, although considering how proud 
he is of doing it, it would surprise me if he waited very long after 
coming of age. Maybe it's customary for Hogwarts students who turn 
17 while away at school to wait until they come home for the summer 
holidays to take their test. But it is also possible that Percy is a 
high achieving kid who started Hogarts at a young age, not unlike 
Hermione, and whose birthday is in July.

Steve
The Lexicon






From jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net  Tue Mar  9 01:21:50 2004
From: jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net (Robert Jones)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 01:21:50 -0000
Subject: Is Hermione Older or Younger than Harry?
Message-ID: <c2j67e+5g2u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92501

We know from the books that Harry was born on July 31st and that 
Hermione was born in September (her parents gave her an early 
birthday present so she could buy stuff in Diagon Alley).

But was she born in the same year as Harry or the previous year?  
That is, is she one or two months younger or ten or eleven months 
older?  No great plot point turns on this, I was just wondering.

Bobby





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  9 01:40:31 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 01:40:31 -0000
Subject: Need Quote: Help with Sirius's Motorcyle
In-Reply-To: <c2e3os+c1i7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2j7af+jdei@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92502

Neri:
<snip> My electronic version of PS (from Bloomsbery, 1997) has in the
end of chapter 1:
"Yeah," said Hagrid in a very muffled voice. "I'd best get this 
> bike away. G'night, Professor McGonagall ? Professor Dumbledore, sir."
> 
> 
Shaun Hately:
My Bloomsbury has: "Yeah," said Hagrid in a very muffled 
voice. "I'll be takin' Sirius his bike back. G'night, Professor
McGonagall ? Professor Dumbledore, sir."
Interestingly it doesn't have the year it was printed listed 
anywhere - it must be after 2000 because it has that as a Trademark 
date - but no actualy date of publication besides the First 
Published 1997.
 
Maybe this text was changed from earlier editions.

Neri:
Curiouser and curiouser. This suggests that Hagrid's taking the bike 
back to Sirius is important. Did Hagrid manage to find Sirius before 
Sirius found Peter? Otherwise I don't see how this changes anything.
 

Carol:
I always thought it was just a second reference to "young Sirius
Black" to impress his name on our subconscious minds in preparation
for PoA, but then I have the American edition, so "I'll be giving
Sirius his bike back" is the only reading I was familiar with.

But there's also the conflict between Hagrid's words about returning
the bike, which imply that it was borrowed, and the implication during
the pub conversation in PoA that Sirius *gave* him the bike ("I won't
be needing it again" or something like that). My guess is that Hagrid
tried to return the bike but couldn't because Sirius was already in
Azkaban. Somewhere between that time and the scene in the pub, his
memory became distorted to fit his changed view of Sirius.

But why--or whether--JKR herself would change Hagrid's words is
another question. I don't think she did. "I'll be giving Sirius his
bike back" is a very *English* way of saying "I'll return Sirius's
bike." It's Hagrid's exact idiom and clearly not a change made by the
(American) editor of the Scholastic edition which somewhow
(improbably) made its way into the Bloomsbury edition. Nor would a
change made by the Bloomsbury editor have ended up in the Scholastic
edition AFAIK. Because it appears in both printed editions (*and*
sounds exactly like what Hagrid would say), I'm guessing that it's
JKR's own original wording.

I'm guessing that the editor of the electronic version made the change
to "get this bike away" and JKR changed it back or made sure that the
right version was printed in both the British and American versions--
because, unlike the editor, she knew that Sirius Black would return to
the story. I noticed that there's no reference to Sirius as the
motorbike owner in Steve Kloves's screen play for SS, either. Sirius
Black must not have seemed important to him--or the detail seemed like
too much of a distraction if the movie was intended to be complete in
itself. But for JKR (in my view), it was an important clue that could
not be altered or omitted from the printed books.

Carol, who hopes we'll find out what really happened at Godric's
Hollow but doesn't trust Hagrid's perspective




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  9 01:50:19 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 01:50:19 -0000
Subject: Harry's type of girl (SHIP)
In-Reply-To: <c2e4uj+8c5f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2j7sr+fic8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92503

Sue B:
Am I the only one, amid all this speculation about relationships, 
who thinks that Harry will end up, like Luke Skywalker, with no 
one? Lots of  friends, no doubt, and a "family" (the Weasleys), 
but no woman? <snip>
> 
> Neri:
> This very well might be, but JKR had just promised us a bit of 
> romance for Harry in Book 6, maybe even some kissing. So who's the 
> lucky one? Somehow I don't see Harry just having a bit of fun with 
> Padma between the rose bushes.

Carol:
Maybe it's Parvati's turn to show her worth, as Ginny did in OoP? she
did stand up for Neville way back in Book One before he fell off his
broom, but hasn't done much more than giggle since. Still, she's a
Gryffindor and more Harry's type in that regard than Padma is.

Carol, who still wonders why identical twins were sorted into
different houses and why Padma is in the story at all, which is my
excuse for replying to another SHIPping thread




From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com  Tue Mar  9 02:09:33 2004
From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 02:09:33 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?FILK:_I=92m_Goyle?=
Message-ID: <c2j90t+r03c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92504

The fourth filk from my CoS musical, A Funny Thing Happened on the 
Way to the Chamber


I'm Goyle (CoS, Chap. 12)

To the tune of I'm Lovely, from Sondheim's A Funny Thing Happened on 
the Way to the Forum 

A brief MIDI can be heard at:

http://www.bway2.com/tracks/forum/

Dedicated to Pippin

THE SCENE: The first floor Girls' restroom on Gryffindor. HARRY, 
having taken the Polyjuice, steps out of the toilet stall to gaze in 
a mirror reflecting back the visage of GREGORY GOYLE. A moment later, 
RON steps out transmogrified into VINCENT CRABBE

HARRY (in the shape of GOYLE):
I'm Goyle,
All I am is Goyle,
Goyle is the thug I've turned into 
Stupid
Hasn't-got-a-clue-kid
Through and through.

Oh,
Don't I look a sight?  
I have features that
Would fill a ghoul with fright

But it's creepy
Creepy being Goyle,
Even though I've tripled his IQ.

RON (as CRABBE, spoken):
Harry . .

HARRY (spoken):
Yes?

RON:
Try to think.

HARRY:
Just try to think?

RON:
Yes.

HARRY:
OK.
I just thought

RON:
You have no idea how weird it is to see Goyle thinking


(music) You're Goyle.
Absolutely Goyle.
Who'd believe that soiled mess is you?
Dumbkopf
Big and ugly dumbkopf
Mingling with scum of 
The earth, too. 

But I've no cause to gab
For I've features just as gross
When I bear the face of Crabbe

BOTH
And we're hoping
Since we're Crabbe & Goyle,
To the dorm of Slytherin we'll go;
And we'll learn just how much Draco knows
..

   -	CMC

HARRY POTTER FILKS 
http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm 
(updated yesterday with 86 new filks, including two new musicals, and 
three musicals-in-progress)





From BrwNeil at aol.com  Tue Mar  9 02:25:10 2004
From: BrwNeil at aol.com (BrwNeil at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 21:25:10 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's type of girl (SHIP)
Message-ID: <ac.5272d766.2d7e8506@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92505

In a message dated 3/8/2004 8:51:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
justcarol67 at yahoo.com writes:
> Neri:
> This very well might be, but JKR had just promised us a bit of 
> romance for Harry in Book 6, maybe even some kissing. So who's the 
> lucky one? Somehow I don't see Harry just having a bit of fun with 
> Padma between the rose bushes.
This kiss, when and if it takes place, might well be the end of the shipping 
wars.

JKR toyed with the Cho relationship for three books, I doubt she will throw 
another bogus relationship at us in book six with only one book to go.

I also stronging doubt that she would ever put Harry in a relationship with 
either Ginny or Hermione and then have him drop one of those girls to go to the 
other.  Doing something like that would totally destroy the friendship 
between these people.  This is an adventure story, not an afternoon TV soap.

I feel that if Harry kisses either Ginny or Hermione (Kiss like in real kiss, 
not friendship peek on check) in book six, we can stop talking about any 
other ship.

 Agree or not?



Neil

Read and discuss Hogwarts Exposed and its sequel at 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HogwartsExposed/
Stories also available at http://portkey.org/ author Neil, 
http://www.schnoogle.com/ author Neil, http://www.fanfiction.net/~neil1 author Neil1 and 
http://www.adultfanfiction.net/ author Neil.
Chapter seventeen of Hogwarts Too Exposed - A Slytherin Among Us has been 
posted. Look for chapter eighteen March 22, 2004


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  9 02:58:50 2004
From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (Phyllis)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 02:58:50 -0000
Subject: Imperio'd Member of the Order (WAS: Snape's position)
In-Reply-To: <c2is30+o3il@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2jbta+9ilg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92506

Lliannanshe wrote:

> I thought that Malfoy put the curse on Bode.

Malfoy did put the curse on Bode, but Bode wasn't a member of the 
Order (or at least, we've never been told that he was).  Bode was 
probably targeted because he was an Unspeakable with the Department 
of Mysteries, and therefore presumably had access to the prophecy.

But your quote helped me find the quote I was looking for about 
Sturgis Podmore (OoP seems even longer when you're trying in vain to 
find a reference)!  Here it is (it's a few pages after the quote 
Lliannanshe provided):

"'Sturgis Podmore,'" said Hermione, breathlessly.  'Arrested for 
trying to get through a door.  Lucius Malfoy got him too.  I bet he 
did it the day you saw him there, Harry.  Sturgis had Moody's 
Invisibility Cloak, right?  So what if he was standing guard by the 
door, invisible, and Malfoy heard him move, or guessed he was there, 
or just did the Imperius Curse on the off chance that a guard was 
there?  So when Sturgis next had an opportunity - probably when it 
was his turn on guard duty again - he tried to get into the 
department to steal the weapon for Voldemort...but he got caught and 
sent to Azkaban...'"  (OoP, Chapter 26)

~Phyllis




From cyberflower27 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  8 22:25:06 2004
From: cyberflower27 at yahoo.com (cyberflower27)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 22:25:06 -0000
Subject: Prof. McGonagall's biscuits
Message-ID: <c2irs2+mmhm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92507

Hi! I'm a newbie from NJ!
I don't know if this has been covered before but here I go: on page 
248 and 249 of OotP (American ed.), while Harry is grumbling to Prof. 
McGonagall about Umbridge, she keeps telling him to "have a biscuit". 
When he says no the second time, she tells him "Don't be ridiculous." 
Why wouldn't she say something like "Suit yourself"? This has 
bothered me since I first read the book. We all know that there are 
so many little clues that are easy to miss throughout the books. It 
almost seems out of place. Almost.
Does anyone have any theory on what the significance of the biscuits 
are or what they may be? I'm pretty sure they're not chocolate...





From abbet69 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  9 01:53:25 2004
From: abbet69 at yahoo.com (abbet69 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 01:53:25 -0000
Subject: Is Hedwig's head on the chopping block?
Message-ID: <c2j82l+qsea@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92508

I just finished GoF and I just got the feeling that Fawkes is supposed 
to end up with Harry.  So two things need to happen by the end of 
the books for Fawkes to end up with Harry.  1.  DD has to die and 2. 
Harry has to live.  Both of these I feel have a good chance of 
happening.  But then I started to think why would Harry need another 
bird unless Hedwig were to also die.  After Ron and Hermione, I 
think Hedwig's death would be the hardest on Harry to deal with. 
Hedwig was Harry's first friend in the WW that Harry spent a lot of 
time with and the only friend at Number 4 Privet Drive.  I always 
thought Hedwig was one of the few that would out-live the books, but 
now I have a bad feeling she's going to sacrifice herself for Harry.  
Hope I'm wrong.

Abbet





From idrinkjameson at hotmail.com  Tue Mar  9 02:04:40 2004
From: idrinkjameson at hotmail.com (mcdee1980)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 02:04:40 -0000
Subject: Something Small
Message-ID: <c2j8no+342g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92509

I'm not sure if this has been discussed, I searched the archives and 
didn't find anything, but I might have missed it . . .
     JKR stated that something very small would be a big part of book 
six.  I've heard a couple of interesting theories on what that small 
thing might be, but I've yet to hear anything convincing.  Its been 
discussed elsewhere that the something could be the Weasley clock, 
the car, or Ginny herself.  I'm not sure that any of those are the 
right answer.  I myself am leaning towards the secret compartment 
under the floor in the Malfoy's palace, but I'm not sure why.  Has 
anyone found any other indications of what that small thing is.  I've 
spent several days looking for clues.  I'm going to have to go back 
and read COS again tonight.

Lady McBeth





From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Tue Mar  9 03:11:02 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 09 Mar 2004 04:11:02 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Imperio'd Member of the Order (WAS: Snape's position)
Message-ID: <20040309031102.8536B2A644C@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 92510

> ~Phyllis quoted:> 
> "'Sturgis Podmore,'" said Hermione, breathlessly.  'Arrested for 
> trying to get through a door.  Lucius Malfoy got him too.  I bet he 
> did it the day you saw him there, Harry.  Sturgis had Moody's 
> Invisibility Cloak, right?  So what if he was standing guard by the 
> door, invisible, and Malfoy heard him move, or guessed he was there, 
> or just did the Imperius Curse on the off chance that a guard was 
> there?  So when Sturgis next had an opportunity - probably when it 
> was his turn on guard duty again - he tried to get into the 
> department to steal the weapon for Voldemort...but he got caught and 
> sent to Azkaban...'"  (OoP, Chapter 26)
> 
Which bring another question: is there a spy in the Order? Because if Malfoy didn't hear him moving (which is one possibility), he might have known somebody was there - where from?
Even Malfoy would not blast Imperii into the empty room in the MoM - too much explaining to be done, too much suspicions. Even with his influence, it would look bad.

Cheers, Viridis
________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!




From mongo62aa at yahoo.ca  Tue Mar  9 03:25:00 2004
From: mongo62aa at yahoo.ca (mongo62aa)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 03:25:00 -0000
Subject: Is Hermione Older or Younger than Harry?
In-Reply-To: <c2j67e+5g2u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2jdec+1i7a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92511

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Robert Jones" 
<jones.r.h.j at w...> wrote:
> We know from the books that Harry was born on July 31st and that 
> Hermione was born in September (her parents gave her an early 
> birthday present so she could buy stuff in Diagon Alley).
> 
> But was she born in the same year as Harry or the previous year?  
> That is, is she one or two months younger or ten or eleven months 
> older?  No great plot point turns on this, I was just wondering.
> 
> Bobby

This is a subject of considerable dispute.  'Officially', she is 
younger, according to the CoS DVD timeline, apparently endorsed by 
JKR.  My problem with this is that this timeline is, in my opinion, 
wrong.  She did NOT write it herself, it was taken from the Harry 
Potter Lexicon, which had put it together according to their own 
preconceived ideas.  We know this, not only because they are EXACTLY 
alike, except for one date involving Tom Riddle's early years, but 
because the HP Lexicon had made a mistake on which day of the week a 
particular event occured (Friday instead of Saturday), and the CoS 
DVD timeline also had the incorrect day.  In addition, information 
given out by JKR on the March 4 2004 chat contradicts several dates 
in the DVD timeline.  So I do not consider the CoS DVD timeline to 
be canon.

As far as I can tell, the decision of whether Hermione is younger or 
older than Ron and Harry is emotional.  Those who want Hermione to 
be the youngest chose the later year of birth.  Those who don't care 
if she is younger or older go by what evidence there is, and tend to 
choose the earlier year of birth, making her the oldest.

The evidence with canon concerns known birthdates.  Harry was born 
on July 31, and remains eleven all through his first year.  In GoF, 
Angelina Johnson, a sixth-year, turns seventeen sometime before 
October 31.  The cut-off date must lie between those two dates.

Almost all of the U.K. has an August 31 cut-off.  If the Hogwarts 
cut-off date were different, then Muggle-born, and non-homeschooled 
magical-born, students born between September 1st and the Hogwarts 
cut-off date would end up with one year less of muggle schooling 
than the other muggle-borns.  This would be a considerable 
disadvantage for muggleborn and non-home-schooled magic-born 
students born between those dates.  The fairest cut-off date for 
Hogwarts students is August 31.  This is also the only possible cut-
off date where all the students are the 'correct' age during the 
Welcoming Feast.

In my opinion, Hermione is the oldest of the trio.

Bill




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  9 03:34:02 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 03:34:02 -0000
Subject: JKR chat--Snape the coward or the one left forever?
In-Reply-To: <c2fu84+ds48@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2jdva+vg01@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92512

Potioncat:
<snip>
> It was Quirrel and Crouch who were in contact with LV, reporting on 
> Snape  and they 
> weren't the most reliable individuals.  With Snape speaking for 
> himself, and Malfoy (possibly) in a position to vouch for him, he 
> could have talked his way back into the fold.
> 
> But I even wonder if that has happened.  He didn't seem to know 
> about the plans for the MoM, yet Malfoy was one of the leaders at 
> the battle.  If he has gotten back in, he hasn't gotten very high.


Bear in mind that Snape has to spend most of his time at Hogwarts and
can't be present at most of the DE's meetings. The only time he might
have had direct contact with LV is during Christmas break or the
summer holidays. Again, I think most if not all of his contact is with
Lucius Malfoy, who would tell Snape only what LV wants him to know.
Nevertheless, he did know that they were after the prophecy and he
figured out (via the occlumency lessons, which I think were as much
for the Order's benefit as for Harry's) that LV was invading Harry's
mind through dreams. But Malfoy would have no opportunity to tell
Snape about the plans for the raid on the MoM, which would have been
finalized only after Kreacher revealed his secrets to Narcissa and LV
broke into Harry's mind and planted the idea that Sirius was being
tortured. Also, since Snape could hardly be present to participate in
the raid (and his loyalty to LV may still be somewhat suspect despite
his powers of persuasion), there would have been no need for Malfoy to
tell him about it. (Besides, it's more interesting to have him put two
and two together and try to prevent both Sirius and Harry from going
to the MoM. If he'd known all about the MoM plot, it would have
spoiled the story.)

Carol




From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Tue Mar  9 02:56:52 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 09 Mar 2004 03:56:52 +0100
Subject: Muggle's get special visitors
Message-ID: <20040309025652.CCC812A644C@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 92513

 lizvega2 said:

> So, who is sent to the other children's homes? It would have to be 
> somebody that could pass as a muggle, at first glance, anyway. Would 
> it be McGonagall? She sends the letters...although, Jo did say 
> visitor(s) plural. So, if it is McGonagall, who goes with her?

In Fictionalley, in this thread:
http://www.fictionalley.org/fictionalleypark/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=56259
Fionnabair made interesting point, although she put it jokingly: (quote)
" I can't help but feel that there must a certain amount of coercion of either parent or child, if for no other reason than magical safety. (First visit after declining, Flitwick shows up? Second one, it's McGonagall. Third time, it's Snape, explaining that little Johnny *will* attend Hogwarts - either as a pupil or a potions ingredient.)"

I think in some cases (like Harry's) some coercion may indeed take place. In most persuasion is enough. As for coercion it brings two points:
1. moral issue - does some Wizard really know better what is good for a child than the child's parents. Excuse is, untrained magic can be dangerous.
2.great "attack line" for purebloods - along the lines of the 1.) moral issue - "since they don't want anyway, what right do we have...etc." Possibly it hasn't occure to them, especially as the wizards who don't want Muggle-borns, also treat Muggles as lower beings, so their "rights" are unimportant anyway.

Cheers, Viridis
________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!




From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  9 03:23:47 2004
From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (fauntine_80)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 03:23:47 -0000
Subject: Squibs?
In-Reply-To: <c2inhd+ii94@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2jdc3+2nct@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92514

Sylvia wrote:
> I've always blithely assumed that the people like the witch who
> brings round the trolley on the express or the barman in the Leakey
> Cauldron are all squibs, since they are plainly part of the WW but
> are doing rather mundane jobs.

Honey:
> The witch with the food cart is specifically referred to as a 
> "witch", not a woman, squib, or muggle.

I thought it was mentioned in the books that Squibs were very rare.  
We only know of two actual characters being Squibs and the MoM 
doesn't even seem to know a lot about them in OotP when the Squib (I 
forgot her name) testifies for Harry about the Dementors.  They ask 
if a Squib can even see a Dementor.

So, as for the witch pushing the cart, who knows?  I guess her job 
is kind of like that of a flight attendants, possibly?  And, we also 
don't know what other duties she performs.  Obviously, she doesn't 
make her bread and butter only 2-4 times a year, and I don't think 
the Hogwarts express runs any other time other than the beginning 
and end of the terms and possibly Christmas Holidays.  So, she must 
do something else.

"fauntine_80" 




From jasnyder at intrex.net  Tue Mar  9 04:27:41 2004
From: jasnyder at intrex.net (Jen Snyder)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 23:27:41 -0500
Subject: Tom Riddle's Birth (Re: JKR Chat  "The Crucial ...")
In-Reply-To: <c2enpi+i6lm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <BNEHIILJKELAIEMOJLOGEENOCBAA.jasnyder@intrex.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 92515

<snip>
from Naama...
<< JKR is clearly portraying Harry and Tom as very similar in their
basic nature and temperament (outward appearance, talented, brave,
ambitious, charismatic). However, who they become is (or will be) the
opposite poles of good and evil.  >>

Sometimes I wonder if Harry and Tom aren't somehow the same person, or two
parts of the same person...like somehow Tom's goodness that he abandoned
when he became Lord Voldemort was saved (maybe by Dumbledore?) and placed
into Harry?  I know it sounds bizarre and there's not a shred of canon to
support it, but I'm just always really struck when rereading CoS how JKR
goes to such pains to point out how similar Tom and Harry are.  And I firmly
believe that the final battle between Harry and Voldemort won't come down to
a battle of wands or wizard powers (notwithstanding the terrific battle at
the Ministry of Magic in OotP!), but will be something more symbolic, with
Harry sacrificing himself in some way to redeem Voldemort and return him to
being just simply Tom Riddle.

Jen




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  9 04:38:58 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 04:38:58 -0000
Subject: Muggles (Was: Unanswered Questions)
In-Reply-To: <c2gabg+9sg3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2jhp2+hk2u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92517

> Meri wrote:
<snip>
> But there are not any actual full blooded Muggles at Hogwarts, 
> because a Muggle is by definition a person who cannot do magic, and 
> doesn't have any magical blood in their viens, which would make it 
> v. hard for them to pass their transfiguration and charms finals. 
<snip> 
> Meri (who wonders if a pair of Squibs had a baby if there would be 
> any chance of that baby having magical powers)

Carol responds:
I don't think we've been told that Muggles have *no* magical blood in
their veins. If that were the case, how could Muggle-born witches and
wizards like Hermione, the Creevey brothers, and Harry's mother be so
common? What JKR said is that Muggles (like Lily's parents) can have
magical children (witches or wizards) and that Squibs are the
nonmagical children of magical parents. There's nothing about Muggles
having no magical blood. I think some Muggles (Vernon, for example)
may have no magical blood whatever, but others, like Petunia, clearly
have magical ancestors, which explains how Petunia could have a
magical sister without being a witch herself. (As JKR herself
explained, Petunia is a Muggle, not a Squib, because both of her
parents were Muggles: nonmagical people whose parents were also not
magical.)

I think--and I'm not claiming to *know* this--that if two Squibs have
a baby, it might have a chance of having magical powers but probably
would not: We don't hear about any Squib-born witches or wizards. It
would be more likely be the nonmagical child of two nonmagical
parents--and by definition a Muggle. The nonmagical child of a Squib
and a Muggle would also be a Muggle by the same JKR-based definition. 

I think, then, that it takes only a few generations after a Squib
passing as a Muggle marries a real Muggle for their children's
witch/wizard ancestry to be forgotten. Lily Evans may have had a Squib
grandfather or great-grandfather, but her parents and sister were
Muggles. (That's canon.) But I have a feeling (not canon!) that her
Evans ancestor's wizard blood is about to show up in another
Muggle-born Evans descendant, Mark Evans, whom I predict we'll see
sorted into Gryffindor in Book 6. (If he doesn't, I'll have to rethink
my theory.)

But to tie all this back into the original discussion, Muggles *can*
have magical blood. In the case of Muggle-borns witches and wizards,
there's almost certainly a magical ancestor. Somewhere along the line,
the magical failed and a Squib was born. The Squib married a Muggle
and produced Muggle children. But two generations later, or ten, or
twenty, for whatever reason, the magic resurfaced and a Muggle-born
witch or wizard was produced--in the case of the Creevey brothers--two
Muggle-born wizard children. Must have had wizard ancestry on both sides!

Carol




From snapesmate at hotmail.com  Tue Mar  9 04:43:09 2004
From: snapesmate at hotmail.com (snapesmate)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 04:43:09 -0000
Subject: Something Small
In-Reply-To: <c2j8no+342g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2ji0t+al9c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92518

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mcdee1980" 
<idrinkjameson at h...> wrote:
> I'm not sure if this has been discussed, I searched the archives 
and 
> didn't find anything, but I might have missed it . . .
>      JKR stated that something very small would be a big part of 
book 
> six.  I've heard a couple of interesting theories on what that 
small 
> thing might be, but I've yet to hear anything convincing.  Its been 
> discussed elsewhere that the something could be the Weasley clock, 
> the car, or Ginny herself.  I'm not sure that any of those are the 
> right answer.  I myself am leaning towards the secret compartment 
> under the floor in the Malfoy's palace, but I'm not sure why.  Has 
> anyone found any other indications of what that small thing is.  
I've 
> spent several days looking for clues.  I'm going to have to go back 
> and read COS again tonight.
> 
> Lady McBeth

JKR made sure that the "something small" was ALSO included in the 
movie because of the fact that it would come into play "later on".  
The Malfoy secret compartment was not in the CoS movie so that cannot 
be it.  The car and Ginny are not "minor" things so I do not think 
they can be it either.  The clock though...  I never thought of 
that.  Dumbledore did mention (in OotP) "that excellent clock of 
Molly's" so maybe that was it, even though that was book 5 not book 
6.  hhhmmm....
Lynnette, who thinks Snape IS a good guy, even if he is NOT a nice 
guy!




From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Tue Mar  9 04:44:04 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 04:44:04 -0000
Subject: JKR chat--Snape the coward or the one left forever?
In-Reply-To: <c2jdva+vg01@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2ji2k+pnfq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92519

Big snip of two posts 
Carol wrote:
 (Besides, it's more interesting to have him (Snape) put two
> and two together and try to prevent both Sirius and Harry from going
> to the MoM. If he'd known all about the MoM plot, it would have
> spoiled the story.)
> 
> Carol

Unless of course, Snape was supposed to make sure Harry and Co. got 
there (to the MoM) and that Malfoy had time to get the orb from Harry 
before the Order folks showed up.  As far as Sirius is concerned LV 
and Malfoy had reasons for wanting to keep Sirius alive and in 
Grimauld Place.  As we have discussed on this list, there is no way 
of knowing what will happen to Kreacher now and he has proved useful 
to Malfoy and LV already.  Imagine what he might have been able to do 
if Sirius had lived and his treachery not discovered.

Just my "Snape could be a very bad boy" comment for the night.
Sue




From jhnbwmn at hotmail.com  Tue Mar  9 04:38:57 2004
From: jhnbwmn at hotmail.com (johnbowman19)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 04:38:57 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat Hermione Animagus
Message-ID: <c2jhp1+46ib@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92520

Did anyone notice in the JKR chat that when she was asked this 
question?

Class 14: If you were a animagus which animal would you be? and why? 
JKR replied that:

JK Rowling replies -> I gave Hermione my idea animagus, because it's 
my favorite animal. You'll find the answer in the Room of 
Requirement, Order of the Phoenix! 

JKR is referring to Hermione's patronus form. Or is she? Could she 
have let slip that Hermione is also an Animagus? The question was 
asked about Animagi not Patroni (presuming these are their plural 
forms). Could JKR mess up like that on purpose? 

John who really would have liked to know how far along box six is. 







From navarro198 at hotmail.com  Tue Mar  9 04:55:04 2004
From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 04:55:04 -0000
Subject: Some questions (JKR's chat)--Quidditch captain
In-Reply-To: <c2c52a+1f9u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2jin8+c9nr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92521

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Molly Rahe" <molly at e...> 
wrote:
> 
> > 
> > bboy_mn:
> > 
> > I think Harry COULD be a good Quidditch captain under the right
> > circumstances, but the next book or two will hardly be the right
> > circumstances. I predict that in the next book Harry will be very
> > busy.
> cut-edit
> > 
> > Second, Ron has grown up in a Quidditch family, he has been 
surround
> > by Quidditch, walked Quidditch, talked Quidditch, and played 
Quidditch
> > his whole life. I think he understand the game and the strategy 
better
> > than Harry.
> cut-edit
> > 
> > I make this prediction long ago, even before book five came out. 
Here
> > is what I see happening. Harry is named captain, and Ron 
continues as
> > Keeper. 
> cut-edit
> > Short version; a conflict that will be resolved when Harry 
realizes
> > that he doesn't like being captain, he's too busy and distracted 
to be
> > captain, and that Ron is better at it than he is, so he will 
turn the
> > Captainship over to Ron, who will do an impressive job.
> > 
> > I made this prediction well over a year ago, and I'm sticking 
too it.
> >
> 
> 
> bboy_mn,
> This is exactly what I thought, only you put it so much more 
clearly
> than I could! I didn't want to edit the post I was refering to 
because
> it explains it so very well! 
> This also ties in with the possiblity of Ron's view in the mirror 
of
> Erised being true- a hint by J.K. He is already a prefect, so who 
knows?

Bookworm:
I have to give the discouraged "I agree" but with an additional 
comment. When I read JKR's comment I also immediately thought of 
Ginny - a funny twist in sibling relations. I've posted in the past 
that Ron has my vote for Captain. I think he would make a very good 
captain, for reasons explained by previous posters. Those reasons 
could also apply to Ginny with the added experience of being 
creative enough to figure out a lot of the plays on her own since 
she was practicing in secret. 

The other thing I have noticed is that the Captain also seems to act 
as the coach. Oliver Wood was the Captain/coach for several years. 
Now we have a new Captain in book 5 (I think the Harry wasn't made 
captain for the same reason he wasn't made prefect.) and a new 
Captain in book 6.  If Katie is the Captain in book 6, that means 
there will be a new Captain in book 7.  And if Ron is the Captain in 
book 7, that means there will be a new Captain in year 7+1.  That's 
four years in a row that there will be a new Captain/coach.  

If Ron becomes Captain, the team will have continuity for two years; 
if Ginny gets it, that gives them continuity for three years. I 
guess the next question is: How badly does Professor McGonagall 
really want the Quidditch Cup?

Ravenclaw Bookworm




From jennistern at aol.com  Tue Mar  9 04:03:22 2004
From: jennistern at aol.com (jenni_stern)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 04:03:22 -0000
Subject: Something Small
In-Reply-To: <c2j8no+342g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2jfmb+unc5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92522

<idrinkjameson at h...> wrote:

> I'm not sure if this has been discussed, I searched the archives and 
> didn't find anything, but I might have missed it . . .

>      JKR stated that something very small would be a big part of book 
> six.  I've heard a couple of interesting theories on what that small 
> thing might be, but I've yet to hear anything convincing.  Its been 
> discussed elsewhere that the something could be the Weasley clock, 
> the car, or Ginny herself.  I'm not sure that any of those are the 
> right answer.  I myself am leaning towards the secret compartment 
> under the floor in the Malfoy's palace, but I'm not sure why.  Has 
> anyone found any other indications of what that small thing is.  I've 
> spent several days looking for clues.  I'm going to have to go back 
> and read COS again tonight.


My Turn:

I'm of the assumption that the "small" thing mentioned, that will 
play a role in book 6, is the Hand of Glory.  

Why?  

Well, the scene was in the book and the movie.  It could have been 
cut out of the movie, but it wasn't.  The whole scene with Lucius and 
Draco in Borgin and Burkes was almost entirely cut out of the film, 
even though it added more depth to their characters and motivation, 
except for Harry grabbing that hand.

Also, it is one of the few items in the shop mentioned by name that 
Draco wants... and for the shopkeeper to comment on.  A best friends 
of theives?  There was a little too much conversation about the Hand 
for it to be a mere background prop.  

Not to mention that the Hand, like the Philosopher's Stone, plays a 
part in our current mythology/history.  A bit more information about 
the Hand...

+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:

"This was a right hand of a murderer that was severed while the 
corpse was still hanging from the gallows. It was then used as a 
charm or in black magic practices after being magically perserved. It 
is also believed robbers often used the hand when breaking into 
buildings and homes.

"Preferably the hand was cut off during the eclipse of the moon. 
Afterwards it was wrapped in a shroud, squeezed of blood and pickled 
for two weeks in an earthenware jar with salt, long peppers and 
saltpeter. Then it was either dried in an oven with vervain, an herb 
believed to be able to ward off demands, or laid out to dry in the 
sun, desirably in the hot dog days of August.

....

"The hand of glory was linked to witches during the witch-hunt period. 
There are two noted incidences. One, in 1588, of two German women, 
Nichel and Bessers, that were accused of witchcraft and exhuming 
corpses. They admitted poisoning helpless people after lighting the 
hands of glory to immobilize them. John Fian, after being severely 
tortured during his witch trial in Scotland in 1590, confessed to 
using a hand of glory to break into a church where he performed a 
ceremony to the devil."

Read the whole article at 
http://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/h/hand_of_glory.html

+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:

 
On another note of pure speculation...

Dean values his right hand, and fears losing it.

Wormtail is a murderer, and already lost his hand.  Think this legend might play a part in its loss?

Jenni






From navarro198 at hotmail.com  Tue Mar  9 05:12:20 2004
From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 05:12:20 -0000
Subject: Shake-up at the Ministry
In-Reply-To: <c29m8h+h682@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2jjnk+7ajk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92523

Neil wrote:
> > This is why I don't bet on horse races because I'd probably lose 
the family home, but my money is definitely on AW.  <snip> The 
clincher is that JKR always has Hermione being right except when 
excited and Ron always being wrong except when joking.  Ron joked 
about Gryffindor having as much chance of wining the Quidditch cup 
as his dad becoming MoM.  Gryffindor won and so will the long shot 
Weasley.
> 
> Kneasy wrote:
> I agree with you but for slightly different reasons.
> 
> Two  clues from the chat can be tied to gether:
> 1. There is a new Minister
> 2. The Muggle world is starting to notice things.
> 
> This is likely  to cause problems for the Ministry.
> Somebody will  have to take charge and sort  it out.
> OK, who is the MoM expert on Muggles? Arthur.

Bookworm:
For what it's worth, here's my prediction: Arthur Weasley will 
become Minister eventually, but not in book 6.  Or not until the end 
of it.

***
"The dementors have left Azkaban," said Malfoy quietly. "Dad and the 
others'll be out in no time...."

"Yeah, I expect they will," said Harry. "Still, at least everyone 
knows what scumbags they are now ? "  (OoP, ch38, p851 US)
***

Will they really? Or will clever, conniving, sneaky Lucius put his 
own spin on things and stage a coup at the Ministry? Notice how 
Draco said it - quietly. Not bragging, not shouting, not defiant. 
Just quiet assurance.

Ravenclaw Bookworm






From snapesmate at hotmail.com  Tue Mar  9 05:14:29 2004
From: snapesmate at hotmail.com (snapesmate)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 05:14:29 -0000
Subject: Is Hermione Older or Younger than Harry?
In-Reply-To: <c2jdec+1i7a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2jjrl+f336@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92524

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mongo62aa" <mongo62aa at y...> 
wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Robert Jones" 
> <jones.r.h.j at w...> wrote:
> > We know from the books that Harry was born on July 31st and that 
> > Hermione was born in September (her parents gave her an early 
> > birthday present so she could buy stuff in Diagon Alley).
> > 
> > But was she born in the same year as Harry or the previous year?  
> > That is, is she one or two months younger or ten or eleven months 
> > older?  No great plot point turns on this, I was just wondering.
> > 
> > Bobby
> 
> <snip>  In addition, information 
> given out by JKR on the March 4 2004 chat contradicts several dates 
> in the DVD timeline.  <snip>> In my opinion, Hermione is the oldest 
of the trio.
> 
> Bill

JKR has stated that Hermione was 10 when she started at Hogwarts, 
that she is the youngest of Harry, Ron and herself.




From siskiou at msn.com  Tue Mar  9 05:19:05 2004
From: siskiou at msn.com (Susanne)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 21:19:05 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Hermione Older or Younger than Harry?
In-Reply-To: <c2jjrl+f336@eGroups.com>
References: <c2jdec+1i7a@eGroups.com> <c2jjrl+f336@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39268470.20040308211905@msn.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92525



Hi,

Monday, March 8, 2004, 9:14:29 PM, snapesmate wrote:

> JKR has stated that Hermione was 10 when she started at Hogwarts,
> that she is the youngest of Harry, Ron and herself.


AFAIK, all JKR did was sign off on the timeline supplied by
someone else.

And looking at her relationship with maths, I'd say there is
plenty of room for error ;)

Or is there an interview where she actually says Hermione
was 10, and turned 11 a few weeks later?

-- 
Best regards,
 Susanne                           mailto:siskiou at msn.com

Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/





From capehoneysuckle at earthlink.net  Tue Mar  9 05:21:27 2004
From: capehoneysuckle at earthlink.net (capehoneysuckle)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 05:21:27 -0000
Subject: Weasleys' ages (still)
In-Reply-To: <c2j4hr+oop4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2jk8n+7ll5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92526

Lexicon Steve:
> I think the only thing we can say for sure from her (JKR's) 
> comment is that there isn't a large gap between Percy and Charlie, 
> but that the gap is fairly small (3-4 years).
(snip)
> Percy's 
> birthday is almost certainly in the summer, and he is young for his 
> year at Hogwarts. This isn't for sure; it's based on when he gets 
> his Apparating license in GF--two weeks before the World Cup--which 
> would mean when he turns 17.

Honey:
You have convinced me. It would be just too out of character for Percy
*not* to get his Apparition license the minute he turned seventeen, or
at least the next school vacation after his birthday. He got his
license in the summer of 1994, and so must have turned seventeen
during the '93-94 school year. Thus he was born in 1976 or 1977, and
must be four or five years younger than Charlie.

I guess I can accept that as being consistent with her idea of not a
large gap between them.

Now, is there any canon at all regarding the gap between Bill and
Charlie? Other than the recent WBD chat, I mean.

Honey




From snapesmate at hotmail.com  Tue Mar  9 05:24:42 2004
From: snapesmate at hotmail.com (snapesmate)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 05:24:42 -0000
Subject: Need Quote: Help with Sirius's Motorcyle
In-Reply-To: <c2j7af+jdei@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2jkeq+q4ph@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92527

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67"
<justcarol67 at y...> wrote:
> Neri:
> <snip> My electronic version of PS (from Bloomsbery, 1997) has in
the
> end of chapter 1:
> "Yeah," said Hagrid in a very muffled voice. "I'd best get this
> > bike away. G'night, Professor McGonagall ? Professor Dumbledore,
sir."
> >
> >
> Shaun Hately:
> My Bloomsbury has: "Yeah," said Hagrid in a very muffled
> voice. "I'll be takin' Sirius his bike back. G'night, Professor
> McGonagall ? Professor Dumbledore, sir."
<snip>>
> Neri:
> Curiouser and curiouser. This suggests that Hagrid's taking the
bike back to Sirius is important. Did Hagrid manage to find Sirius
before Sirius found Peter? Otherwise I don't see how this changes
anything.
>
> Carol:
> I always thought it was just a second reference to "young Sirius
> Black" to impress his name on our subconscious minds in preparation
> for PoA, but then I have the American edition, so "I'll be giving
> Sirius his bike back" is the only reading I was familiar with.
>
> But there's also the conflict between Hagrid's words about returning
> the bike, which imply that it was borrowed, and the implication
during the pub conversation in PoA that Sirius *gave* him the bike
("I won't be needing it again" or something like that). <snip>> But
why--or whether--JKR herself would change Hagrid's words is
> another question. I don't think she did. "I'll be giving Sirius his
> bike back" is a very *English* way of saying "I'll return Sirius's
> bike." It's Hagrid's exact idiom and clearly not a change made by
the
> (American) editor of the Scholastic edition which somewhow
> (improbably) made its way into the Bloomsbury edition. Nor would a
> change made by the Bloomsbury editor have ended up in the Scholastic
> edition AFAIK. Because it appears in both printed editions (*and*
> sounds exactly like what Hagrid would say), I'm guessing that it's
> JKR's own original wording.
><snip>

"I'd best get this bike away. G'night, Professor McGonagall ?
Professor Dumbledore, sir." is supposedly from the UK version
and "I'll be takin' Sirius his bike back. G'night, Professor
McGonagall ? Professor Dumbledore, sir." is supposed to be the US
version.  I never noticed the fact that Hagrid (in the US version)
kinda told a different story in the pub. "I'll be takin' Sirius his 
bike back" is not what you would say if the owner had given it to you 
saying "I won't be needing it anymore".  I am wondering if the 
motorbike will show up again?  During the World Book Day online chat 
from March 4, 2004 a question came up: 
Rita: Whatever happend to Sirius' flying motorbike?
JK Rowling replies -> Ah, good question. You'll find out, but the 
real sleuths among you might be able to guess. 
AND!!!:
SiriuslyLovinSirius: If we ever see Sirius again, what form will he 
be in?
JK Rowling replies -> I couldn't possibly answer that for fear of 
incriminating myself. 
When asked is the two-way mirror Sirius gave Harry will show up 
again, JKR's response was "ooo good question.  There's your answer."  
I wonder...  a motorbike riding spirit?  
Lynnette, who thinks Snape IS a good guy, even if he is NOT a nice
guy!






From navarro198 at hotmail.com  Tue Mar  9 05:45:11 2004
From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 05:45:11 -0000
Subject: Harry's type of girl (SHIP)
In-Reply-To: <c2j7sr+fic8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2jll7+3ik6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92528

Sue B:
Am I the only one, amid all this speculation about relationships, 
who thinks that Harry will end up, like Luke Skywalker, with no one? 
Lots of friends, no doubt, and a "family" (the Weasleys), but no 
woman?

Carol:
Maybe it's Parvati's turn to show her worth, as Ginny did in OoP? 
she did stand up for Neville way back in Book One before he fell off 
his broom, but hasn't done much more than giggle since.

Bookworm: 
I posted this theory a while ago but got no response.  With the 
flurry of interest since the Chat, I'll float this again and see 
what others think:

The most popular matches seem to be: H/H and R/L, or H/G, R/H, and 
possibly N/L.  IMHO, Neville and Luna are horribly mismatched.  
Neville (at this point) needs someone to bolster his self-
confidence. Luna is supremely self-confident but is mostly oblivious 
to others.  The other two pairings could possibly work out but...

Harry is now feeling totally isolated from everyone else.  Ginny has 
some understanding of being possessed by Voldemort but, while giving 
a warm-fuzzy feeling, it doesn't feel quite right.  Ginny does have 
both the self-confidence and compassion that Neville needs.  

As for Harry and Hermione, I have come to the conclusion that they 
are loving but platonic friends.  They make a terrific team, but not 
a good couple.  

Ron is self-confident (mostly) but also self-conscious about his 
family's situation.  The arguments between him and Hermione could be 
read as romantic interest, or as pseudo-sibling bickering.  So the 
possibility of a R/H SHIP doesn't seem as strong to me as it used 
to.  Who could balance Ron? The self-confident, un-self-conscious 
Luna.  Who has hinted that, while unconscious of others around her, 
she *has* noticed Ron.

Where does that leave us?  Neville and Ginny, Ron and Luna.  What 
about Harry and Hermione?

We know Hermione has kept in touch with Victor Krum.  Charlie 
Weasley is out recruiting members for the Order outside of Britain.  
Could Krum step back into Hermione's life in a bigger role?  Krum is 
serious, which Hermione would appreciate. His interest in sports 
would balance Hermione's academic studiousness.  

So what about Harry?  Who says the Hero Always Gets the Girl?

Okay, maybe we will see someone we already know develop more in the 
next two books.  Parvati Patil or Susan Bones are both 
possibilities. I did like Parvati at the beginning until she and 
Lavendar started giggling too much.

Ravenclaw Bookworm 





From snapesmate at hotmail.com  Tue Mar  9 05:59:31 2004
From: snapesmate at hotmail.com (snapesmate)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 05:59:31 -0000
Subject: Is Hermione Older or Younger than Harry?
In-Reply-To: <39268470.20040308211905@msn.com>
Message-ID: <c2jmg3+q8et@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92529

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Susanne <siskiou at m...> wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Monday, March 8, 2004, 9:14:29 PM, snapesmate wrote:
> 
> > JKR has stated that Hermione was 10 when she started at Hogwarts,
> > that she is the youngest of Harry, Ron and herself.
> 
> 
><snip> 
> Or is there an interview where she actually says Hermione
> was 10, and turned 11 a few weeks later?
> 

Yes, JKR actually stated hermione was 10 when she started at Hogwarts 
during an interview.  Of course, I now cannot find the confounded 
thing.  I have researched so many over the last 2 days that for the 
life of me I cannot remember where I read the transcript of the 
chat.  I do remember it was a webchat though!  I will keep looking 
for it because I know we all like "proof" in the way of dates 
and "locations" of chats and interviews, LOL!  Not proof as in we do 
not believe each other, but as in we like to reference it for 
ourselves...
Lynnette, who thinks Snape is a good guy, even if he is not a nice 
guy!




From gbannister10 at aol.com  Tue Mar  9 07:55:10 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 07:55:10 -0000
Subject: Prof. McGonagall's biscuits
In-Reply-To: <c2irs2+mmhm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2jt8u+773e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92530

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cyberflower27" 
<cyberflower27 at y...> wrote:


> Does anyone have any theory on what the significance of the 
biscuits 
> are or what they may be? I'm pretty sure they're not chocolate...

Geoff:
No, they're Ginger Newts.

"Then she said , 'Have a biscuit, Potter.'
'Have - what?'
'Have a biscuit', she repeated impatiently, indicating a tartan tin 
lying on top of top of one of the piles of papers on her desk. 'And 
sit down.'
........
He sank into a chair opposite her and helped himself to a Ginger 
Newt....'"

(OOTP "Professor Umbridge" p.223 UK edition)

I think the Scots are more into shortbread and ginger biscuits than 
chocolate......




From greatelderone at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  9 08:09:41 2004
From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 08:09:41 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat Hermione Animagus
In-Reply-To: <c2jhp1+46ib@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2ju45+9d8m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92531

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "johnbowman19" <jhnbwmn at h...> 
wrote:
> JKR is referring to Hermione's patronus form. Or is she? Could she 
> have let slip that Hermione is also an Animagus? The question was 
> asked about Animagi not Patroni (presuming these are their plural 
> forms). Could JKR mess up like that on purpose? 

More likely that the patronus forms and the animagus forms are the 
same in that they bring out your "inner animal" or totem, which 
probably mean that Harry would still turn into into a stag like his 
father and why his patronus was a stag.

Wonder what kind of animal Ron turns into? 




From jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com  Tue Mar  9 07:58:33 2004
From: jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com (mooseming)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 07:58:33 -0000
Subject: Something Small
In-Reply-To: <c2jfmb+unc5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2jtf9+6kfv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92532

Snip
> 
> My Turn:
> 
> I'm of the assumption that the "small" thing mentioned, that will 
> play a role in book 6, is the Hand of Glory.  
> 
> Why?  
> 
> Well, the scene was in the book and the movie.  It could have been 
> cut out of the movie, but it wasn't.  The whole scene with Lucius and 
> Draco in Borgin and Burkes was almost entirely cut out of the film, 
> even though it added more depth to their characters and motivation, 
> except for Harry grabbing that hand.
> 
> Also, it is one of the few items in the shop mentioned by name that 
> Draco wants... and for the shopkeeper to comment on.  A best friends 
> of theives?  There was a little too much conversation about the Hand 
> for it to be a mere background prop.  
> 
> Not to mention that the Hand, like the Philosopher's Stone, plays a 
> part in our current mythology/history.

 Snip

> On another note of pure speculation...
> 
> Dean values his right hand, and fears losing it.
> 
> Wormtail is a murderer, and already lost his hand.  Think this
legend might play a part in its loss?
> 
> Jenni

Absolutely!
Plus there are two players in the prophecy of which 'either must die
at the HAND of the other' (my capitals). I've said elsewhere 'the hand
of the other' might be another other as it were and not the hand of
either of the two protagonists at all. We have two contenders for that
'independent' hand, Wormtail's silver hand and the hand of glory.

Add in Harry's detention experience with Umbridge and there is a very
plausible case for the significance of the hand.

Jo




From falkelihu at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  9 07:51:02 2004
From: falkelihu at yahoo.com (Elihu Falk)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 23:51:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: When did Fudge change his mind?
Message-ID: <20040309075102.5040.qmail@web61109.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92533

Fudge's reaction to the possibility of LV's return was expected by Dumbledore, but seems to go against something he said in PA10: "I must say, You-Know-Who alone and friendless is one thing...but give him back his most devoted servant [meaning Black], and I shudder to think how quickly he'll rise again...."
 
18 months later, when Dumbledore mentions LV's return to power, and Black still out, he says "You-Know-Who returns? Preposterous. Come now, Dumbledore..."[GF36] And when Umbridge brings Harry to Dumbledore after the DA was almost caught, Fudge says "Or is there the usual simple explanation involving a reversal of time, a dead man [Voldemort] coming back to life, and a couple of invisible dementors?", each of those being considered impossible.
 
When did Fudge change his mind?


Elihu

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search - Find what you?re looking for faster.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





From Ali at zymurgy.org  Tue Mar  9 10:19:39 2004
From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 10:19:39 -0000
Subject: Is Hermione Older or Younger than Harry?
In-Reply-To: <c2jmg3+q8et@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2k5nr+q35t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92534

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snapesmate" <snapesmate at h...> 
wrote:

>> Yes, JKR actually stated hermione was 10 when she started at 
Hogwarts during an interview.  Of course, I now cannot find the 
confounded thing.  I have researched so many over the last 2 days 
that for the life of me I cannot remember where I read the 
transcript of the chat.  I do remember it was a webchat though!  I 
will keep looking for it because I know we all like "proof" in the 
way of dates and "locations" of chats and interviews, LOL!  Not 
proof as in we do not believe each other, but as in we like to 
reference it for ourselves...>>>

I think a lot of people would be grateful if you could find that 
interview - largely to shut me up about Hermione's age. Until the 
timeline was published on the CoS DVD, I was aware of no *proof* of 
Hermione's age. I could be wrong, but I don't think that it had ever 
been said. Certainly, the Lexicon had placed Hermione's birthday as 
after Harry's, but that was not cast in stone - at least, not until 
JKR confirmed the timeline.

I only reopened this argument up at the weekend, in post 92319. For 
what it's worth, I now think that JKR would probably make Hermione 
younger than Harry, because it would be easier to make up some 
rationale for the Hogwarts school year being different to the 
English school year or more probably that Hermione was a special 
case, than it would be to admit that she didn't think the age thing 
through.

People have often asked my why Hermione's age matters? Well, out of 
all the unanswered questions and conflicting data, it hardly ranks 
as very important. But, I suppose for me it riles because it should 
have been such an easy thing to have got right from the start. There 
could have been one sentence from Hermione in which she had said 
that of course she should really have been in the next year, or some 
such statement, and I would never have questioned it. I just don't 
think that the Hermione of PS would have kept her young age a 
secret. I also think it's harder than ever to argue that Hogwarts 
runs on different terms to English schools when prior to Hogwarts, 
the kids were either educated at home, or in Muggle primary schools.

Ali






From patientx3 at aol.com  Tue Mar  9 10:21:54 2004
From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 10:21:54 -0000
Subject: On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
In-Reply-To: <025B34C6-707A-11D8-8947-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com>
Message-ID: <c2k5s2+bo2q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92535

Kneasy wrote:

>>JKR dislikes Uncle Vernon? Can this be true?
Surely there's a mistake here somewhere.
<snip>
Has anyone ever considered the situation from Vernon's viewpoint?<<

HunterGreen (de-lurking to respond):
There doesn't seem to be much (or any) discussion on Vernon's POV 
does there? I hadn't really given it much thought until I read your 
post, and there is reason for Vernon to be justifiably upset. The WW 
has been unthankful and unrespectful of him and his family despite 
the fact he has taken care of Harry (albeit not very well) for about 
14 or so years now, and continues to pick him up from King's Cross 
every summer.

Kneasy continue:
>>We don't have fat dossier on Vernon, just a few facts from which we
can base some reasonable suppositions. Family man, wife and one
child, works hard, probably at senior middle management level, sole
wage-earner in the household, lives in the suburbs, a conformist.

<snip>

Some claim that Petunia (and by extension Vernon) are exhibiting
some species of jealousy or envy; I don't agree, it's fear. They are
frightened of magic, it's practitioners and what it can do. Strange
people can change the natural order of the world by muttering and
waving a bit of wood around. Performing cute tricks that may be
entertaining for on the surface, but the implications are terrifying -
there is no such thing as safety and security when a wizard is around.
The Dursleys are only too glad to get away from these horrible freaks
as soon as possible.

<snip>

A cuckoo child, foisted on to them by those they most fear. "Look 
after him." - was the additional phrase "or else" plainly stated or 
just implied?<<

HunterGreen:
This is where I first object to the way the WW treated the Dursleys. 
Do they knock on the door and explain the situation? Do they even 
have the option to say no? They wake up and find a baby sitting on 
their doorstep, the child of relatives they DON'T like or trust, a 
child that may eventually have the ability to harm their family with 
only a letter to explain why. The only thing they could do besides 
take him in was drop him off at an orphanage. To ANYONE this would be 
a shock...its quite admirable that they took him in at all (of course 
it would NOT have been hard in this situation to treat him decently).

Kneasy:
<snip>
>>But one day their hopes come crashing down, felled by the weight of 
a letter through the letter-box.

First option - denial. Nobody seems to have considered that Vernon's
actions might be motivated by concern for Harry. If he had said "Fine,
off you go to that Hogwarts place, get out and don't come back" what
would Vernon have lost? Nothing, in fact he might have gained some
peace of mind. "Got rid of the little tyke at last!" But no, he goes 
to great lengths to save Harry from this aberrant fate and is mocked 
for doing so.<<

HunterGreen:
I don't agree that his actions were motivated by any sort of concern 
for Harry. Obviously Harry *did* eventually go to the school and the 
Dursleys aren't rid of him. He wants to distance himself and his 
family from the WW, which is not possible if Harry knows he's a 
wizard and is running off to wizard school every fall. And he has a 
right to want that. Him and Petunia took Harry in, which makes them 
Harry's guardians, which means they should have a right to decide 
what he does and doesn't know (either about himself or his family) 
and what school he goes to. It might seem cruel or self-serving to 
keep Harry out of Hogwarts, but as long as Vernon is expected to keep 
Harry in his house he *should* have the right to decide that. But he 
doesn't, and those rights are thrown out the window after Harry turns 
11.


Kneasy wrote:
>>Vernon is by no means a 'nice' man; he's pompous, self-opinionated, 
a bully (though he would probably call himself 'blunt-speaking') and 
not given to introspection, but he is not evil. He doesn't like Harry 
and is not hypocritical enough to pretend otherwise, but Harry does 
live under his roof and his personal moral code requires him to 
protect Harry from what he considers to be dangers. 
<snip>
In return, threats. What can he do? It's not as if he could go and
complain to someone, who would believe him?<<

HunterGreen:
Exactly. Dumbledore is calling on Vernon and his wife to look after 
Harry, but they aren't even given full parental rights! Yes, the 
Dursleys aren't doing so good a job of it, but its not like once 
Harry leaves for school he's never coming back. They have the heavy 
burden (in their eyes) of explaining to the neighbors where he went, 
and they are *terrified* of anyone noticing anything remarkably odd 
about Harry or anything he's connected with (like owls coming to 
their house or Mrs. Weasley sending a letter covered in stamps). Yet 
they aren't given a choice in the matter besides just throwing Harry 
onto the street (which would cause attention from the neighbors).

Look what happens after they ignore the letters, more and more are 
sent, rather then just sending someone (good with muggle relations 
that is) to knock on the door and explain things to the Dursleys. 
When someone is finally sent, its Hagrid, which is NOT friendly in 
the least bit. Suppose the Dursleys HAD loved Harry and HAD been only 
interested in his best interests the whole time (which, as far as 
anyone knows at this point could be the case). Suppose they hadn't 
told Harry the truth about himself or his parents because they didn't 
want to scare him and because they believe the WW is not the place 
for him--then this big oaf comes charging into where they're staying 
and tells Harry *everything* against their objections. Had they been 
looking out for his welfare the whole time that wouldn't been too 
fair would it? But because they weren't, its okay somehow. The day 
after all this Hagrid disappears with Harry (to buy his school 
supplies) taking the only boat, and then drops Harry off at home, 
expecting the Dursleys to bring him to the train station in a few 
weeks. I see it as almost a miracle that Vernon and Petunia let him 
inside that night. 

Over and over again in each book, the Dursleys rights as guardians 
are ignored, yet they are expected to still let Harry have a room in 
their house. It wouldn't be that hard for the WW to give them a 
little respect (was it really necessary to get Harry by floo powder 
in GoF? Vernon had a darn good right to be upset, not only were they 
late, they 'destroyed' his living room). 
I was very much disturbed by how Vernon is treated at the end of 
OotP. They all walk up as a big group and *threaten* him, rather than 
at least attempting to have a *friendly* and civilized discussion 
about it. Personally I think they did Harry more harm than good 
anyway. Its not like Vernon is going to suddenly be nice to Harry 
because of this, all he'll do is be afraid of him again. Harry is 
almost 16, the Dursleys can't really hurt him the way they used to, 
so the whole thing only served to offend the Dursleys. Its not fair  
to expect Vernon to take someone in from a group of people he is 
justifiably afraid of, then *force* him to treat the person a certain 
way. Moody, Arthur and Tonks are lucky Vernon didn't just look at 
them and refuse to take Harry at all on those terms. 

-HunterGreen. (returning to lurkdom)




From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk  Tue Mar  9 11:40:07 2004
From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 11:40:07 -0000
Subject: Prof. McGonagall's biscuits
In-Reply-To: <c2irs2+mmhm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2kaen+4bt6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92536

cyberflower27 wrote:
> Hi! I'm a newbie from NJ!

Welcome!

> Does anyone have any theory on what the significance of the 
> biscuits are or what they may be? I'm pretty sure they're not     
> chocolate...

I think they're significant because offering biscuits is significant 
in the UK. It turns something from 'formal' into 'more informal'. It 
offers hospitality. Biscuits are offered at, say, a break from the 
meeting (like a donut break). A head of house offering a student a 
biscuit signals that this isn't a formal dressing down; they want to 
find out (or in McGonagall's case, explain) what the problem really 
is. 

Harry's refusal of the second biscuit is classic sulky teenager - 
which is why McGonagall tells him not to be ridiculous. He's 
signalling that he wants to reject the good advice she's just given 
him, by refusing something that he actually wants. At least, I never 
knew a teenage boy that *wasn't* a bottomless pit when it comes to 
accepting biscuits [grin].

Pip!Squeak




From belijako at online.no  Tue Mar  9 12:23:33 2004
From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 12:23:33 -0000
Subject: Prof. McGonagall's biscuits
In-Reply-To: <c2kaen+4bt6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2kd05+16dr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92537

Pip!Squeak wrote:
Harry's refusal of the second biscuit is classic sulky teenager - 
which is why McGonagall tells him not to be ridiculous. He's 
signalling that he wants to reject the good advice she's just given 
him, by refusing something that he actually wants. At least, I never 
knew a teenage boy that *wasn't* a bottomless pit when it comes to 
accepting biscuits [grin].

Berit replies:

Good point (and that goes for Geoff's post #92530 too :-) I've got a 
third explanation, which (by the way) doesn't rule out the two other 
ones:
McGonagall seems to be the kind of woman who doesn't easily show 
emotion; she usually comes off rather brusquely. "Stern and strict" 
is her thing. Now, of course she HAS to scold Harry for being 
reckless, opposing Umbridge so blatantly, because the situation is 
potentially very dangerous. But I get a strong feeling from reading 
the passage that her insisting on feeding Harry ginger biscuits is 
her way of showing support; a subtle way of telling him she is in 
fact a little proud of him, standing up for the truth even if it 
hurts... It's McGonagall's way of showing she cares :-) I've had that 
impression ever since the first time I read the passage.

Berit J
http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue Mar  9 12:30:11 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 12:30:11 -0000
Subject: Is Hermione Older or Younger than Harry?
In-Reply-To: <c2k5nr+q35t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2kdcj+vp9p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92538

Ali wrote: 
But, I suppose for me it riles because it should 
> have been such an easy thing to have got right from the start. 
There 
> could have been one sentence from Hermione in which she had said 
> that of course she should really have been in the next year, or 
some 
> such statement, and I would never have questioned it. I just don't 
> think that the Hermione of PS would have kept her young age a 
> secret. I also think it's harder than ever to argue that Hogwarts 
> runs on different terms to English schools when prior to Hogwarts, 
> the kids were either educated at home, or in Muggle primary 
schools.




Potioncat here:
I'm a very vague person when it comes to numbers.  I'm constantly 
getting my children's ages wrong. (And I call myself their mother, I 
get names wrong too.)  So these age problems with the Weasleys and 
Hermione do not bother me.  After all, look at the amazing details 
in the clues that do matter to the story.

I think though, that Hermione would not have gone out of her way to 
let the others know she was younger, given the hard time she had 
fitting in and fighting her "Miss Know It All" reputation that 
followed  her, I think into CoS. For all we know, she finished grade 
school early (Or is that allowed in England?) or, she was advanced 
enough that she simply left school early to go into Hogwarts.

Potioncat, who thinks JKR has a lot in common with Molly.




From meriaugust at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  9 13:35:29 2004
From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 13:35:29 -0000
Subject: When did Fudge change his mind?
In-Reply-To: <20040309075102.5040.qmail@web61109.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c2kh71+2htc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92539

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Elihu Falk <falkelihu at y...> 
wrote:
> Fudge's reaction to the possibility of LV's return was expected by 
Dumbledore, but seems to go against something he said in PA10: "I 
must say, You-Know-Who alone and friendless is one thing...but give 
him back his most devoted servant [meaning Black], and I shudder to 
think how quickly he'll rise again...."

Meri writes: Wow, I didn't even remember that this quote existed. 
Guess I'll have to do a more thoughrough reread some day soon. 
Anyway, remember that this is when everyone in the WW is convinced 
of a few certain facts: that Sirius was the Potters' secret keeper, 
that Peter Pettigrew was the loyal one, that Sirius was LV's 
informant and that Sirius was giulty of the murders of all the 
muggles and Peter. This is before doubts began to creep into Fudge's 
perfectly ordered world, and it was easy to scoff/worry at the 
possibililties of a returning LV, because they were so abstract. 
And, after all, having a powerful wizard like Sirius is a lot more 
comforting to have as an enemey than a weakling like Peter. Sirius 
is a lot easier to fear. 

Elihu continues:
> 18 months later, when Dumbledore mentions LV's return to power, 
and Black still out, he says "You-Know-Who returns? Preposterous. 
Come now, Dumbledore..."[GF36] And when Umbridge brings Harry to 
Dumbledore after the DA was almost caught, Fudge says "Or is there 
the usual simple explanation involving a reversal of time, a dead 
man [Voldemort] coming back to life, and a couple of invisible 
dementors?", each of those being considered impossible.
>  
> When did Fudge change his mind?

I think that the cracks of belief are there allready. Fudge is 
swimming deep in the River Denial, and now that the thing that he 
feared would happen (LV has risen again with the help of his devoted 
lost servant) has actually happened, he simply refuses point blank 
to believe, despite the evidence. His disbelief turns to fear, not 
of LV but of DD, who Fudge believes to want the Minister possition, 
and this fear turns into anger, which keeps Fudge from hearing or 
seeing reason. He never actually says that he no longer shudders at 
the thought of  LV's most devoted servant returning to him and 
helping LV to rise again, but he does point blank refuse to believe 
that this has happened. Just two thoughts worth. 
Meri - Arthur Weasley for Minister! 




From quigonginger at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  9 14:09:06 2004
From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 14:09:06 -0000
Subject: Muggle's get special visitors
In-Reply-To: <c2j0k0+cm04@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2kj62+nk80@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92540

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lizvega2" <lizvega2 at y...> 
wrote:
> O.K., so the muggle children get special visitors, in lieu? of 
> letters, to explain the magical world to their parents. Since we 
> know that it's not the ministry sending the letters to the 11 year 
> olds, we must assume that Hogwarts is also sending the messengers. 
(snip)
> So, who is sent to the other children's homes? It would have to be 
> somebody that could pass as a muggle, at first glance, anyway. 
Would 
> it be McGonagall? She sends the letters...although, Jo did say 
> visitor(s) plural. So, if it is McGonagall, who goes with her?

Ginger guesses:

Dumbledore, Hagrid, Snape and Flitwick would probably be out based on 
apperance.  McGonnagall is a pretty good guess.  Trelawny is way out 
there.  Firenze just plain couldn't.  We don't know a lot about the 
others, but (drum roll, please) how about that nameless, faceless, 
teacher of Muggle Studies?  It would be right up his/her alley!  Who 
better to confer with Muggles than one who teaches the subject?

Ginger, going OT for a moment to right a wrong.  I had stated in a 
previous post that the US Constitution lists liberty as a right.  It 
was the Declaration of Independance.  Thanks to Ravenclaw Bookworm 
for pointing that out to me offlist.  Sorry about that.  I'm off to 
iron my hands now.  




From Ali at zymurgy.org  Tue Mar  9 14:45:47 2004
From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 14:45:47 -0000
Subject: Is Hermione Older or Younger than Harry?
In-Reply-To: <c2kdcj+vp9p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2klar+9ved@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92541

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at m...> 
wrote:

 Potioncat here:
>>> I'm a very vague person when it comes to numbers.  I'm 
constantly getting my children's ages wrong. (And I call myself 
their mother, I get names wrong too.)  So these age problems with 
the Weasleys and Hermione do not bother me.  After all, look at the 
amazing details in the clues that do matter to the story.<<<

Ali:

I agree - in part. For me, the relevance of the Weasley ages was not 
so much because they didn't add up, but that it made a "missing 
Weasley" much more unlikely - or certainly between Percy and Charlie.

I just find the Flints frustrating. There is such a wealth of detail 
available, it's such a wonderful fantasy world, I just want it all 
to fit together cogently. The numbers aren't vital at all, but they 
are barriers to truly understanding what the Wizarding World is 
like. Perhaps, when we think about the size of Hogwarts for 
instance, we'll just have to view it like the Flying Ford Anglia, it 
expands to fir the needs of the moment. 
 
>>> I think though, that Hermione would not have gone out of her way 
to let the others know she was younger, given the hard time she had 
 fitting in and fighting her "Miss Know It All" reputation that 
 followed  her, I think into CoS. For all we know, she finished 
grade school early (Or is that allowed in England?) or, she was 
advanced enough that she simply left school early to go into 
Hogwarts.>>>

I think this is where my interpretation of Hermione really does 
differ from you. The Hermione I see at the begining of PS *would* 
have said that she was young. She earned her "Miss Know it All" 
reputation. She told everyone about how she had learned all the 
books off by heart. She drew attention to herself in class all the 
time. She did indeed have a hard time fitting in, but to me, that 
was because she almost thrust her knowledge down people's throats. 
She was in many ways an exhibitionist because she didn't have the 
sense *not* to put her hand up and answer questions at every 
available opportunity. From my perspective, Hermione would have made 
her age known.

Going up to Secondary school a year early is very uncommon in 
Britain, though not unheard of. Normally, if people do go to 
secondary school early, it's because they started primary school 
early and are simply following on with their adopted year group. 
Some education authorities do allow this, although, I think most do 
not. It is more common in the private sector. It is certainly 
sufficiently rare for it to be "noticed" and remarked upon.

Ali




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue Mar  9 14:48:08 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 14:48:08 -0000
Subject: Snape's position
In-Reply-To: <c2ihh3+pr89@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2klf8+44s1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92542

 
> Neri wrote: 
> The importance of this need-to-know basis is now very clear when 
> Malfoy is in the hands of the aurors and can be interrogated.
 

Potioncat:  
Imagine if he were to name Snape!

Neri: 
However, perhaps Snape was able to get more information by spending 
some quality time with DEs who are a bit less discrete. I already 
noted that Lucius Malfoy has a tendency to brag, and just sitting in 
the bar with Crabbe and Goyle beaching about mudbloods could prove 
fruitful. And naturally, Snape's hand might accidentally slip, so a 
drop or two of veritaserum might find their way to Crabbe's and 
Goyle's glasses...


Potioncat: 
No wonder he looked so pale when he left the hospital wing...bar 
hopping with Crabbe and Goyle?  Let's hope he doesn't overdose on 
Draught of Peace!

All these evolving posts have demonstrated several ways that Snape's 
knowledge of the Mom Affair could have played out.   I have this bit 
of input about a scene in GoG that bothered me for quite a while, 
but may have a connection to this discussion.

"The Madness of Mr. Crouch" pp557--558.
This is where Harry is looking for DD and Snape comes from the 
headmaster's office and stalls Harry.  Then DD appears, listens to 
Harry and the two of them go off to see Crouch, leaving Snape behind.

I finally resolved, as have others, that Snape was stalling Harry 
while DD collected his thoughts (pensieve).  Then I couldn't work 
out why Snape didn't go with them.  He's often in the thick of 
things.

Then "The Pensieve"597--604.  It's not clear to me how much time has 
passed between the two events, but here, DD has a recent 
conversation with Snape as well as the events shortly after LV's 
fall.  

I think the meeting just before Harry brought the news of Mr. Crouch 
was when DD and Snape began planning for the role Snape would play 
when LV did return.  Snape left to go prepare, rather than joining 
Harry and DD as they went to see Mr. Crouch.

Potioncat




From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  9 15:24:18 2004
From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (drjuliehoward)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 15:24:18 -0000
Subject: Harry's Future and Career
Message-ID: <c2knj2+mur0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92543

In JKR's recent chat is this Q and A:

gazza: will harry become head master of hogwarts
JK Rowling replies -> I'm not sure I can see Harry in an academic 
career, he's seen so much action!

Does anyone else think that, based on this answer, she is not 
planning for Harry to die at the end of the septology?  If so, and 
the prophecy does mean "die" then we know LV will be the one to die, 
the ony question is "How?"  I'd like to read others' speculation on 
this.

Julie - who never expected JKR to kill off the hero anyway




From lliannanshe at comcast.net  Tue Mar  9 15:57:18 2004
From: lliannanshe at comcast.net (Lliannanshe)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 15:57:18 -0000
Subject: Imperio'd Member of the Order
In-Reply-To: <20040309031102.8536B2A644C@front.interia.pl>
Message-ID: <c2kpgu+fdbr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92544

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, bufo_viridis at i... wrote:
> > ~Phyllis quoted:> 
> > "'Sturgis Podmore,'" said Hermione, breathlessly.  'Arrested for 
> > trying to get through a door.  Lucius Malfoy got him too.  I bet 
he 
> > did it the day you saw him there, Harry.  Sturgis had Moody's 
> > Invisibility Cloak, right?  So what if he was standing guard by 
the 
> > door, invisible, and Malfoy heard him move, or guessed he was 
there, 
> > or just did the Imperius Curse on the off chance that a guard was 
> > there?  So when Sturgis next had an opportunity - probably when 
it 
> > was his turn on guard duty again - he tried to get into the 
> > department to steal the weapon for Voldemort...but he got caught 
and 
> > sent to Azkaban...'"  (OoP, Chapter 26)

Lliannanshe:
Your quote doesn't convince me that Malfoy imperio'd Podmore.  How 
does Hermione know Malfoy put the curse on Podmore? Harry saw/heard 
Rookwood's confession about Bode and Malfoy.  Is Hermione assuming 
that Malfoy cursed Podmore also?  The key phrase for me was 'So what 
if...' She doesn't really know and is working out a hypothesis from a 
article in the Daily Prophet.  We really don't know what the details 
are for what happened to Podmore, YET.  

> Which bring another question: is there a spy in the Order? Because 
if Malfoy didn't hear him moving (which is one possibility), he might 
have known somebody was there - where from?
> Even Malfoy would not blast Imperii into the empty room in the MoM -
 too much explaining to be done, too much suspicions. Even with his 
influence, it would look bad.
> 
> Cheers, Viridis
> ________________________
> Curiouser and curiouser!

Lliannanshe:
Exactly,  So what if Malfoy did put the curse on Podmore who told 
Malfoy he was there?  So what if the spy in the order imperio'd 
Podmore?  So what if Podmore was sitting by the door guarding, he 
fell asleep and the cloak slipped off?  He was sent to Azkaban for 
trespass only not breaking and entering.

Lliannanshe
Who really does like to keep her opinions to herself but couldn't let 
this one pass.

   




From Ali at zymurgy.org  Tue Mar  9 15:58:47 2004
From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 15:58:47 -0000
Subject: Harry's Future and Career
In-Reply-To: <c2knj2+mur0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2kpjn+sjhb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92545

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "drjuliehoward" 
<drjuliehoward at y...> wrote:

> In JKR's recent chat is this Q and A:
> 
> gazza: will harry become head master of hogwarts
> JK Rowling replies -> I'm not sure I can see Harry in an academic 
> career, he's seen so much action!
> 
> Does anyone else think that, based on this answer, she is not 
> planning for Harry to die at the end of the septology?  If so, and 
> the prophecy does mean "die" then we know LV will be the one to 
die, the ony question is "How?"  I'd like to read others' 
speculation on this.

Ali:

I wish I did think that. JKR has previously been asked a very 
similar question. Last time she confirmed that Harry would not be a 
teacher, but one of his classmates would be.

I think that JKR likes to keep us guessing. In previous chats she 
has made comments like "what makes you think Harry will survive?" 
(my paraphrase). This time, she asked a similar question about Ron. 
This has two effects, firstly it keeps us all on our toes, but 
secondly, it does open people's minds to the possibility of our 
favourite characters dying.

I would be very upset if Harry were to die. I think that JKR would 
be, but I don't think that would stop her killing him off. I 
personally don't think that all the trio will survive. For some 
reason, I can't imagine Hermione being the one to die, so my choice 
will be between Harry and Ron. I suppose at this stage, my fear of 
Harry dying makes me think it will be him, but that's a somewhat 
pessimistic view.

Ali




From meriaugust at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  9 16:17:53 2004
From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 16:17:53 -0000
Subject: What's in it for the Dursleys (Was On the other hand.....)
In-Reply-To: <c2k5s2+bo2q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2kqnh+t0o1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92546

Massive snips of Kneasy and Hunter Greens original posts: 

> Over and over again in each book, the Dursleys rights as guardians 
> are ignored, yet they are expected to still let Harry have a room 
in 
> their house. 

This quote struck me for some reason, and I was reminded of the Peck 
of Owls chapter in OP. Aunt Petunia obviously has some connections to 
the WW that even her husband doesn't know about. Could there be some 
overriding reason, other that DD's howlers, that keeps the door open 
for Harry every summer after Hoogwarts lets out? I doubt that there 
is monetary compensation, so what could this connection be? Any 
thoughts? 

Meri 




From nkafkafi at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  9 17:33:36 2004
From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 17:33:36 -0000
Subject: Snape's position
In-Reply-To: <c2klf8+44s1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2kv5g+3n6m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92548

> > Neri wrote: 
> > The importance of this need-to-know basis is now very clear when 
> > Malfoy is in the hands of the aurors and can be interrogated.
>  
> 
> Potioncat:  
> Imagine if he were to name Snape!
> 
> Neri: 
> However, perhaps Snape was able to get more information by spending 
> some quality time with DEs who are a bit less discrete. I already 
> noted that Lucius Malfoy has a tendency to brag, and just sitting 
in 
> the bar with Crabbe and Goyle beaching about mudbloods could prove 
> fruitful. And naturally, Snape's hand might accidentally slip, so a 
> drop or two of veritaserum might find their way to Crabbe's and 
> Goyle's glasses...
> 
> 
> Potioncat: 
> No wonder he looked so pale when he left the hospital wing...bar 
> hopping with Crabbe and Goyle?  Let's hope he doesn't overdose on 
> Draught of Peace!
> 
> All these evolving posts have demonstrated several ways that 
Snape's 
> knowledge of the Mom Affair could have played out.   I have this 
bit 
> of input about a scene in GoG that bothered me for quite a while, 
> but may have a connection to this discussion.
> 
> "The Madness of Mr. Crouch" pp557--558.
> This is where Harry is looking for DD and Snape comes from the 
> headmaster's office and stalls Harry.  Then DD appears, listens to 
> Harry and the two of them go off to see Crouch, leaving Snape 
behind.
> 
> I finally resolved, as have others, that Snape was stalling Harry 
> while DD collected his thoughts (pensieve).  Then I couldn't work 
> out why Snape didn't go with them.  He's often in the thick of 
> things.
> 
> Then "The Pensieve"597--604.  It's not clear to me how much time 
has 
> passed between the two events, but here, DD has a recent 
> conversation with Snape as well as the events shortly after LV's 
> fall.  
> 
> I think the meeting just before Harry brought the news of Mr. 
Crouch 
> was when DD and Snape began planning for the role Snape would play 
> when LV did return.  Snape left to go prepare, rather than joining 
> Harry and DD as they went to see Mr. Crouch.


Neri now:
IMHO, DD was sending Snape straight to LV by the end of GoF, and this 
is why Snape was pale. Bar-hopping with Crabbe and Goyle is just an 
added bonus, and if it seems easy to you, remember that LV must be 
watching like a hawk every move of Snape, even if he was somehow 
(how?!) convinced to let Snape live.

I fully agree that there is something going on between DD, Snape and 
the pensieve. I think it was mentioned in this forum before that, 
during the occlumency lessons in OotP, Snape was using DD's pensieve, 
but when Harry portkeyed from the MoM to DD's office, who was 
supposed to be locked while DD was away, the pensieve was there in 
the room. So Snape was going in and out of DD's locked office, 
borrowing and returning the pensieve.

However, even if it is possible to use the pensieve to remove some 
memories from Snape's mind, I'm not sure it would have been enough to 
convince LV that Snape was on his side. IMO what Snape needed is for 
LV to legilimen into Snape's mind and find clear evidence in there 
that Snape was indeed a loyal DE all the time, and that he hates DD's 
guts. I don't see LV letting Snape live *and* drafting him again for 
anything less than that. OTOH, Snape and DD had 13 years between them 
and the pensieve to manufacture precisely such evidence. DD had known 
all those years that LV will come back. I don't know if we have 
enough information on legilimency, occlumency and the pensieve to 
deduce how DD and Snape managed it, but I feel certain that if such a 
thing is possible at all, DD and Snape are the right persons for the 
job.

Neri 





From gbannister10 at aol.com  Tue Mar  9 17:48:27 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 17:48:27 -0000
Subject: Is Hermione Older or Younger than Harry?
In-Reply-To: <c2kdcj+vp9p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2l01b+livq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92549

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at m...> 
wrote:
 
> Potioncat here:
> For all we know, she finished grade 
> school early (Or is that allowed in England?) or, she was advanced 
> enough that she simply left school early to go into Hogwarts.


Geoff:
It would be extremely unusual for a child to move up a year early. I 
hvae known it happen when there was a mix-up in the age but, from the 
information given, if Hermione's birthday was in September, then 
under the /normal/ situation, she must have been 11 in the preceding 
year and hence the best part of a year older that Harry.




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  9 17:49:32 2004
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 17:49:32 -0000
Subject: Harry's Future and Career
In-Reply-To: <c2knj2+mur0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2l03c+gbil@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92550

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "drjuliehoward"
<drjuliehoward at y...> wrote:
> In JKR's recent chat is this Q and A:
> 
> gazza: will harry become head master of hogwarts
> JK Rowling replies -> I'm not sure I can see Harry in an academic 
> career, he's seen so much action!
> 
> Does anyone else think that, based on this answer, she is not 
> planning for Harry to die at the end of the septology?  ...edited...
> 
> Julie - who never expected JKR to kill off the hero anyway

bboy_mn:

One of the key elements of the HP series is the sense of mystery and
suspense that JKR creates. That sense of uncertainly that keeps you
turning the pages and reading on desperate to find out what happens next. 

If she flat out said Ron and/or Harry and/or Hermione and/or
Dumbledore and/or Hagrid and/or Snape was going to live and/or die, a
big element of that suspense that keeps us reading would be lost. So,
at this point, JKR is just keeping us guessing. 

As far as Harry's future and career, I think when this is all over
with, Harry is going to be sick and tired of fighting and struggle.
For the first time in his life, he is going to want some peace and quiet. 

Fortunately, a wise investment early on will leave him with enough
on-going wealth that he will not have to work. He will be able to
pursue what ever endevors appeal to him at any given moment. He may
even focus on philanthropic endevors like looking after other wizard
children who have grown up abuse or underpriveledged; very noble of him.

The early on investment, of course, is Weasley Wheezes, that I predict
will grow into Weasley Enterprises as the Twins become more suscessful
eventually branching out into other areas of business; food &
beverages, clothes, entertainment, sports, etc..... Eventually growing
into one of the largest most prominent magical businesses in all of
Europe. 

So, given his large share of Weasley Enterprises, Harry will be rich
enough that he doesn't have to struggle with such mundane things as a
job. He can live a quiet life, and pursue the safe sane leisurely
activities of his choice.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

bboy_mn








From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Mar  9 18:17:02 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 18:17:02 -0000
Subject: Imperio'd Member of the Order (WAS: Snape's position)
In-Reply-To: <20040309031102.8536B2A644C@front.interia.pl>
Message-ID: <c2l1mu+1005s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92552

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, bufo_viridis at i... 
wrote:
> > ~Phyllis quoted:> 
> > "'Sturgis Podmore,'" said Hermione, breathlessly.  'Arrested 
for 
> > trying to get through a door.  Lucius Malfoy got him too.  I bet 
he did it the day you saw him there, Harry.  Sturgis had Moody's 
 Invisibility Cloak, right?  So what if he was standing guard by the 
 door, invisible, and Malfoy heard him move, or guessed he was 
there,  or just did the Imperius Curse on the off chance that a 
guard was  there?  So when Sturgis next had an opportunity - 
probably when it  was his turn on guard duty again - he tried to 
get into the  department to steal the weapon for Voldemort...but 
he got caught and sent to Azkaban...'"  (OoP, Chapter 26)
> > 

Viridis:
> >Which bring another question: is there a spy in the Order? 
Because if Malfoy didn't hear him moving (which is one 
possibility), he might have known somebody was there - where 
from?

 Even Malfoy would not blast Imperii into the empty room in the 
MoM - too much explaining to be done, too much suspicions. 
Even with his influence, it would look bad.<<

Finally, someone else is interested in what happened to poor 
old Podmore! I was beginning to think nobody cared. <g> Yes, 
Hermione's explanation sounds  weak.  It would be risky 
to fire an Imperius curse at  an unknown  person...what if they 
were able to resist? 

The surge of happiness Harry feels from Voldemort in 
Umbridge's office coincides with Podmore's sentencing, which 
pretty well disposes of the idea that Podmore himself is the 
traitor. Voldemort wouldn't be happy about a DE going to 
Azkaban. As I've said before, it's interesting  that this clue was
left for the reader to discover--the Trio never make the 
connection.

So who is the spy, and did he kill Sirius because only Sirius 
could interrogate Kreacher and be sure of extracting the whole 
truth? That Kreacher wasn't the only spy?

 I'm still sure  ESE!Lupin is the spy but much more obviously, it 
could be Snape.  We never did find out what happened to that 
missing invisibility cloak. Did Podmore have it when he was 
arrested or did it fall into Voldemort's hands?

 If so, then there might have been an invisible Death Eater in the 
room when Sirius died. And of course it wouldn't be the first time 
that Snape used an invisibility cloak to sneak up on Harry.


Pippin





From carolynwhite2 at aol.com  Tue Mar  9 18:20:41 2004
From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 18:20:41 -0000
Subject: Something Small/Dobby's painting of Harry
In-Reply-To: <c2jfmb+unc5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2l1tp+kc68@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92553

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jenni_stern" <jennistern at a...> 
wrote:
> <idrinkjameson at h...> wrote:
> 
> >      JKR stated that something very small would be a big part of 
book six.  I've heard a couple of interesting theories on what that 
small thing might be, but I've yet to hear anything convincing.  Its 
been discussed elsewhere that the something could be the Weasley 
clock, the car, or Ginny herself.  I'm not sure that any of those are 
the right answer.  I myself am leaning towards the secret compartment 
> > under the floor in the Malfoy's palace, but I'm not sure why.  
> 
> My Turn:
> 
> I'm of the assumption that the "small" thing mentioned, that will 
> play a role in book 6, is the Hand of Glory.  
(snip)
> Jenni

Carolyn:
I am fascinated by the picture that Dobby painted of Harry. Its such 
a bizarre thing for a house-elf to do, to make a piece of art. I 
can't think of any non-human in the series doing anything like it. It 
is also evidently a very bad, child-like splodge, judging by their 
problem in working out what it is, or even which way up it should be. 

Given that most pictures in the WW seem to be able to communicate, I 
am expecting the painting to play a role. What if it isn't actually 
of Harry at all, but of someone else that Dobby wants Harry to speak 
to? Harry's name is on the back, but this needn't be a title for the 
picture, but a message to Harry. We don't have any dialogue between 
Harry and Dobby about the picture after Xmas, IIRC, where anything is 
explained about it.

I wondered if it could be of a house-elf, maybe a dead one, maybe an 
ancestor/relative of Dobby, who can explain some crucial piece of 
back story at some point ? 

The picture might also not necessarily painted by Dobby, but maybe by 
someone else trying painfully to communicate with the outside world, 
despite spell damage/Imperius control ..




From rredordead at aol.com  Tue Mar  9 18:58:29 2004
From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 18:58:29 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat - Narcissa Malfoy. And just how long will Lucius be in Azkaban?
Message-ID: <c2l44l+qc5g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92554

I have, in the past, speculated that Lucius Malfoy will be out of 
prison very quickly, not only because of his personal influence in 
the MoM, but also the fact that Draco mentions the Dementors leaving 
Azkaban and threatens the possibility of his fathers escape, very 
defiantly, to Harry at the end of OotP.  But I wonder if Mr. Malfoy 
is now destined to spend al little more time inside Azkaban Fortress 
that previously speculated?  JKR answered just one question about 
Narcissa Malfoy, very directly, during the chat:

Wild Rose: Will we see more of Narcissa Malfoy now that Lucius is 
unavailable?  JK Rowling replies -> Yes, you will.

It did get me wondering about Lucius.  Just how long will he be in 
prison for?  If his wife is about to step into the limelight, or 
atleast a little light, for a while, it seems to indicate that he may 
be in prison for longer that I had thought.  Of course we could just 
end up with a brief glimpse of Narcissa before she disaperates back 
to Malfoy Mansion, but I do hope not.  As much as I enjoy Lucius' 
antics, I would like to spend some time with Narcissa and find out 
whom she is, and what is she really all about?  Especially now her 
sister has resurfaced to terrorize the WW.  Who better to know 
Bellatrix's Achilles heel than her own sister?

Cheers, Mandy





From rtb333 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  9 12:30:03 2004
From: rtb333 at yahoo.com (rtb333)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 12:30:03 -0000
Subject: Something Small
In-Reply-To: <c2jfmb+unc5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2kdcb+aq87@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92555

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jenni_stern" <jennistern at a...> 
wrote:

> I'm of the assumption that the "small" thing mentioned, that will 
> play a role in book 6, is the Hand of Glory.  
> 
> Why?  
> 
> Well, the scene was in the book and the movie.  It could have been 
> cut out of the movie, but it wasn't.  The whole scene with Lucius 
and 
> Draco in Borgin and Burkes was almost entirely cut out of the film, 
> even though it added more depth to their characters and motivation, 
> except for Harry grabbing that hand.
> 
> Also, it is one of the few items in the shop mentioned by name that 
> Draco wants... and for the shopkeeper to comment on.  A best 
friends 
> of theives?  There was a little too much conversation about the 
Hand 
> for it to be a mere background prop.  
> 

Rob now: I totally agree that it is the hand of glory.  I had posted 
this very idea earlier but even I can't find it in the archive so I 
have no post reference #, sorry.  

Anyway, I speculate that this hand will be used to attempt to attack 
Harry at the Dursley's. 

Why, you may ask?  

Simple, the legend surrounding the hand...If you are unfamiliar with 
it, look it up as it is very interesting.  A DE will try to get Harry 
but will be unable to because the Hand will be extinguished by milk.  
JKR strengthened my arguement for this in her interview. 

She stated that Harry will have the shortest time yet at the 
Dursley's. I think it is because he has to get more protection from 
the Order.   

She also said that someone late in life will discover they have 
magical abilities. This will be Petunia because of the blood 
protection that runs in her veins.

She also said that if she were Harry she would run and hide because 
she knows what is coming.  

Also the fact that she repeats in the books that Harry is safe at the 
Dursley's.  I think that this is the same as Hermione saying that 
nobody could apparate into Hogwarts, but House elves don't have a 
problem with it.  

Expect the unexpected....Always.

This is why I am sure that the hand is the something small. (other 
than the fact that it is also in the movie, which is a huge clue)

Rob





From gbannister10 at aol.com  Tue Mar  9 19:00:45 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 19:00:45 -0000
Subject: Dudley's development
In-Reply-To: <c2l1tp+kc68@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2l48t+offb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92556

Going back to PS to check on some facts about the Dursleys, something 
curious suddenly struck me as unusual about Dudley.

We had a thread a few weeks back about Dudley's birthday and decided 
that canon evidence pointed to late June, so that when Harry arrived 
at Privet Drive, Dudley was about sixteen months old.

We are told that:

"Mr.Dursley..... tried to kiss Dudley goodbye but missed because 
Dudley was now having a tantrum and throwing his cereal at the walls."

(PS "The Boy Who Lived" p.8 UK edition)

..and when Professor McGonagall objects to Harry being brought to the 
Dursleys, she remarks.....

"And they've got this son - I saw him kicking his mother all the way 
up the street, screaming for sweets."

(same chapter p.15)

I don't recall either of my sons being strong enough to throw cereal 
at the walls when they were sixteen months; in a temper, they might 
push the dish off the high chair or spit the cereal out.

Again, a child of this age with the ability to walk up the street and 
kick Mum and also scream recognisably and specifically for sweets 
must be a fast developer, don't you think?




From rorogersmc at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  9 15:50:30 2004
From: rorogersmc at yahoo.com (rorogersmc)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 15:50:30 -0000
Subject: JKR chat--Snape the coward or the one left forever?
In-Reply-To: <c2g304+tm90@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2kp46+3o84@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92557

Snip of Sue's post
> This one really bothers me. Do all the DE's have the Darkmark?  When 
> I read GoF, I assumed there would have had to be more DEs than in the 
> graveyard and making that conculusion, I decided it was only 
> his "inner circle" of DEs who had it.  

I don't know if anyone has answered this question but in GoF Snape talks about 
this. GoF US Ed pg 710 Snape tells Fudge, "Every Death  Eater had the sign 
burned into him by the Dark Lord." He then goes on explaning, but I think that 
every DE means every DE.

Another snip of Sue's post
> We know Snape is powerful and smart.  We also know Voldemort is 
> extremely powerful and brilliant.  The way I see it there are only 
> two possibilities: 
> 1. Snape is very close to Voldemort and DD is a fool where he is 
> concerned.  He is doing a "job" for Voldemort that will allow him 
> access in and the ability to take over Hogwarts when he is ready.
> 
> 2. Snape is indeed working for the Order, Voldemort knows this and is 
> setting something up which will be the end of the Order and Snape.  
> IOW Snape is nothing more than a pawn.

During the recent JKR chat in response to the question 'Why specifically does 
Dumbledore trust Snape?' ; JK Rowling replies -> "Another excellent and non-answerable question. I shall merely say that Snape has given Dumbledore his story and Dumbledore believes it."  
I take this to mean that even if Snape is a double agent, he is loyal to DD.  Whether Voldie knows this or not is a BIG question.

Rachael 






From mad_maxime at hotmail.com  Tue Mar  9 17:04:16 2004
From: mad_maxime at hotmail.com (mad_maxime)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 17:04:16 -0000
Subject: What's in it for the Dursleys (Was On the other hand.....)
In-Reply-To: <c2kqnh+t0o1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2kteg+8v20@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92558

HunterGreen wrote:
> Over and over again in each book, the Dursleys rights as guardians
> are ignored, yet they are expected to still let Harry have a room
> in their house.

> Meri wrote:
> This quote struck me for some reason, and I was reminded of the Peck
> of Owls chapter in OP. Aunt Petunia obviously has some connections
> to the WW that even her husband doesn't know about. Could there be
> some overriding reason, other that DD's howlers, that keeps the door
> open for Harry every summer after Hoogwarts lets out? I doubt that
> there is monetary compensation, so what could this connection be?
> Any thoughts?

My response (Max):

I'm new to this list, so forgive me if this has been mentioned before.
 My theory is that Dumbledore's protective charm extends to Petunia
and probably Dudley as well.  It is, after all, a blood charm.  

I think that Dumbledore made it clear to Petunia that she and her
family were in as much danger as Harry.  Therefore, if she agreed to
take him in, her family would be protected as well (not sure about
Vernon). In other words, no Harry, no protection for her family. 
Seems like a strong motivation to me.

There's another reason why I believe Harry is not the only one
protected by the blood charm.  If that were true, than all Voldemort
or a DE would have to do to get to him is to knock off Petunia, which
would be insanely easy to carry out. So, imo, for the protection to be
believable at all, it must also extend to Petunia.

Max





From psychobirdgirl at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  9 19:14:16 2004
From: psychobirdgirl at yahoo.com (psychobirdgirl)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 19:14:16 -0000
Subject: the reason Sirius "had to die"
Message-ID: <c2l528+blua@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92559

Who else here thinks that maybe when JKR said Sirius had to die it 
was not in the sense of the plot but more of a test for herself for 
when she has to kill a bigger character (Dumbledore or Harry, etc.) 




From rredordead at aol.com  Tue Mar  9 19:17:22 2004
From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 19:17:22 -0000
Subject: Dudley's development
In-Reply-To: <c2l48t+offb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2l582+8igo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92560

Geoff Bannister wrote:
> Going back to PS to check on some facts about the Dursleys, 
something curious suddenly struck me as unusual about Dudley.
> We had a thread a few weeks back about Dudley's birthday and 
decided that canon evidence pointed to late June, so that when Harry 
arrived at Privet Drive, Dudley was about sixteen months old.
> 
> We are told that:> 
> "Mr.Dursley..... tried to kiss Dudley goodbye but missed because 
> Dudley was now having a tantrum and throwing his cereal at the 
walls."
> (PS "The Boy Who Lived" p.8 UK edition)
> 
> ..and when Professor McGonagall objects to Harry being brought to 
the Dursleys, she remarks.....
> "And they've got this son - I saw him kicking his mother all the 
way up the street, screaming for sweets."
> (same chapter p.15)

> I don't recall either of my sons being strong enough to throw 
cereal at the walls when they were sixteen months; in a temper, they 
might push the dish off the high chair or spit the cereal out.
> Again, a child of this age with the ability to walk up the street 
and kick Mum and also scream recognisably and specifically for sweets 
> must be a fast developer, don't you think?

Mandy here:
Great catch!  The throwing of cereal could happen accidentally.  
Babies for flex their arms suddenly while eating and if any food was 
stuck it would come off and fly against the wall.  But the walking 
and kicking!  Highly unlikely.  Walking occurs between 12-15 months.  
Having the ability to kick at a target and balance while kicking 
would be extremely rare in a 16 month old.  

Hum, a magical Dudley surfaces again.

Cheers, Mandy





From Ali at zymurgy.org  Tue Mar  9 19:21:23 2004
From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 19:21:23 -0000
Subject: When did Fudge change his mind?
In-Reply-To: <20040309075102.5040.qmail@web61109.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c2l5fj+6km0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92561

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Elihu Falk <falkelihu at y...> 
wrote:
 
>>> 18 months later, when Dumbledore mentions LV's return to power, 
and Black still out, he says "You-Know-Who returns? Preposterous. 
Come now, Dumbledore..."[GF36] And when Umbridge brings Harry to 
Dumbledore after the DA was almost caught, Fudge says "Or is there 
the usual simple explanation involving a reversal of time, a dead 
man [Voldemort] coming back to life, and a couple of invisible 
dementors?", each of those being considered impossible.
  
 When did Fudge change his mind?<<<

Ali:

When I read that passage, I understood the dead man to be Peter 
Pettigrew, not Voldemort. So Fudge didn't actually have to change 
his mind. He was talking about a different person.

I do believe though, that Fudge was aware that Voldemort could 
return, but that he believed it to be only a vague theoretical 
possibility. He just prepared to face up to the mounting evidence 
about Voldemort's return. Quite simply, the return of Voldemort 
meant the end of his cosy little existence, it was much better to 
convince himself that nothing was happening than try to confront 
unpleasant reality. Afterall, there's none so blind as them that 
cannot see.

Ali,

in a posting frame of mind as she's supposed to be writing an 
assignment!







From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Tue Mar  9 19:21:23 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 19:21:23 -0000
Subject: Dudley's development
In-Reply-To: <c2l48t+offb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2l5fj+vmk0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92562

Geoff wrote:

> something curious suddenly struck me as unusual about Dudley.
> 
> We had a thread a few weeks back about Dudley's birthday and 
> decided that canon evidence pointed to late June, so that when 
> Harry arrived at Privet Drive, Dudley was about sixteen months old.
> 
> We are told that:
> 
> "Mr.Dursley..... tried to kiss Dudley goodbye but missed because 
> Dudley was now having a tantrum and throwing his cereal at the 
> walls."
> 
> (PS "The Boy Who Lived" p.8 UK edition)
> 
> ..and when Professor McGonagall objects to Harry being brought to 
> the Dursleys, she remarks.....
> 
> "And they've got this son - I saw him kicking his mother all the 
> way up the street, screaming for sweets."
> 
> (same chapter p.15)
> 
> I don't recall either of my sons being strong enough to throw 
> cereal at the walls when they were sixteen months; in a temper, 
> they might push the dish off the high chair or spit the cereal out.

> 
> Again, a child of this age with the ability to walk up the street 
> and kick Mum and also scream recognisably and specifically for 
> sweets must be a fast developer, don't you think?

Susan:
LOL!  I never thought of Dudley as a fast developer in 
*anything*...but maybe in this case it's due to his motivation for 
FOOD.  Both instances you cite involve food.  Perhaps Dudders wanted 
Cap'n Crunch or Sugar Bombs instead of unsweetened oatmeal or 
something? :-)

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From falkelihu at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  9 15:41:42 2004
From: falkelihu at yahoo.com (Elihu Falk)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 07:41:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Apparating into MoM
Message-ID: <20040309154142.15091.qmail@web61107.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92563

Susan wrote:
*Do* we know that one cannot apparate or disapparate inside the 
Ministry?  I remember several times Hermione's exaspiration at having 
to tell people one can't apparate into Hogwarts.  But have we been 
told the same is true about the MoM?  Sorry--at work w/ no books to 
check.

Elihu's answer:
 
I think that the whole MOM security system is supposed to make fun of the 
security on airlines in America (and probably many other places in the world) 
before September 11th. In the real (muggle) world airports, what would happen 
is:
a) you would check in for the flight at the counter.
b) while they printed the tags for the luggage, they would recite certain 
questions at you.
 
Now, here's how the Israeli airport does security (El-Al, the Israely airline, 
has people who do this for them everywhere in the world):

a) Before you reach the counter, a security person approaches you.
b) This person asks you questions, starting with basic ones, and going on to 
others as needed, to try and find people who are either trying to hide 
something, or don't know what's in their bags.
c) This person also looks through your documents and makes sure they're okay (I 
know someone who was questioned for a long time because of a misprinted ticket)
d) Only when done wth that, does the passenger get to go to the counter.
 
The difference in that stage is big - and it makes the difference between real 
security and fake security which doesn't do much good.
 
I think that the MOM setup is making fun of this - it's possible to Apparate 
into the department of mysteries, someone asks what guests are ariving for but 
doesn't care what the answer is etc.
 
Elihu




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Tue Mar  9 19:27:15 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 19:27:15 -0000
Subject: Apparating into MoM
In-Reply-To: <20040309154142.15091.qmail@web61107.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c2l5qj+9iib@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92564

Elihu:
> I think that the whole MOM security system is supposed to make fun 
> of the security on airlines in America (and probably many other 
> places in the world) before September 11th. <BIG snip> 
> I think that the MOM setup is making fun of this - it's possible to 
> Apparate into the department of mysteries, someone asks what guests 
> are ariving for but doesn't care what the answer is etc.

Susan:
I had definitely never thought of this possibility.  But following 
along w/ your example, there's also that teeny little security 
problem of there being NOBODY manning the security desk the night of 
the battle.  Granted, perhaps the DEs "eliminated" the desk 
worker...but where's the additional security team?  There's a Dept. 
of Mysteries, for goodness' sake, which presumably would be heavily 
guarded...but it's not!

Siriusly Snapey Susan






From rayheuer3 at aol.com  Tue Mar  9 19:30:34 2004
From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 14:30:34 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR Chat - Narcissa Malfoy. And just how long will Lucius...
Message-ID: <111.2f35f526.2d7f755a@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92565

 Mandy (rredordead at aol.com) writes:

> It did get me wondering about Lucius.  Just how long will he be in 
> prison for?  If his wife is about to step into the limelight, or 
> atleast a little light, for a while, it seems to indicate that he may 
> be in prison for longer that I had thought. 

Thinking about this, we may see Narcissa becoming a sort of
Winnie Mandela to Voldy's supporters.  Dumbledore will, I'm sure,
use his considerable influence to make sure that Lucius and the
other DEs stay in Azkaban indefinately, perhaps for life.  That
would allow Narcissa to give interviews to the Wizard Press
denouncing the "corrupt government that is persecuting my
husband."  JKR has an excellent plotline there if she chooses 
to pursue it.  And if she doesn't, there's always fanfic.

  --  Ray


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue Mar  9 19:33:24 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 19:33:24 -0000
Subject: Snape's position  and the Pensieve
In-Reply-To: <c2kv5g+3n6m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2l664+eq2v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92566

 Potioncat:I snipped both my comments and Neri's to make this reply 
flow better. (I hope)

> Neri wrote:
> IMHO, DD was sending Snape straight to LV by the end of GoF, and 
this is why Snape was pale. Bar-hopping with Crabbe and Goyle is 
>just an added bonus, and if it seems easy to you, remember that LV 
>must be watching like a hawk every move of Snape, even if he was 
somehow (how?!) convinced to let Snape live.


Potioncat:
I agree, he was most likely on his way to LV at the end of Gof.  By 
OoP and beyond, Snape is using whatever means are available to spy 
on LV.  The idea of him in a bar with Crabbe and Goyle is both funny 
and painful! (But never easy!)

Neri:
> I fully agree that there is something going on between DD, Snape 
>and the pensieve. I think it was mentioned in this forum before 
>that, during the occlumency lessons in OotP, Snape was using DD's 
>pensieve, but when Harry portkeyed from the MoM to DD's office, who 
>was supposed to be locked while DD was away, the pensieve was there 
>in the room. So Snape was going in and out of DD's locked office, 
> borrowing and returning the pensieve.

Potioncat:
I don't think Snape is using DD's pensieve.  Harry thinks he is, but 
I do not.  I probably should have made a new post for the pensieve.  
(I snipped it from this one.)  My point was that with DD's 
supervision,  Harry sees a recent conversation between Snape and DD 
in DD's pensieve.  I think the 2 men had been discussing the dark 
mark problem and DD used the pensieve to gather and organize his 
thoughts.  That is what he tells Harry it is for.  It is later we 
see Snape use it to remove thoughts as if to keep them away from 
Harry.

I think that conversation may have been one of the last where they 
made their plans for how Snape will respond when the summons from LV 
comes.  Because by that time, it was obvious that LV would be 
summoning his DE's soon. 

On a slightly different note, Crouch/Moody dismisses Karkaroff for 
running away, but doesn't make any statement about Snape.  So, does 
Crouch/Moody think Snape went to the meeting? Or does he think Snape 
stayed at Hogwarts?  Or is it just that JKR doesn't want us to know 
what was going on?

Potioncat who doesn't care how Snape is doing it, so long as he 
survives.







From manawydan at ntlworld.com  Tue Mar  9 19:36:04 2004
From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 19:36:04 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Need Quote: Help with Sirius's Motorcycle
References: <1078809693.4755.60609.m20@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <002601c4060d$c2cef0e0$274e6751@f3b7j4>

No: HPFGUIDX 92567

Lynnette quoted:
>"I'd best get this bike away. G'night, Professor McGonagall -
>Professor Dumbledore, sir." is supposedly from the UK version
>and "I'll be takin' Sirius his bike back. G'night, Professor
>McGonagall - Professor Dumbledore, sir." is supposed to be the US
>version.  I am wondering if the motorbike will show up again?  I
>never noticed the fact that Hagrid (in the US version)kinda told a
>different story in the pub.  "I'll be takin' Sirius his bike back" is
>not what you would say if the owner had given it to you saying "I
>won't be needing it anymore".

Possibly, and just possibly, Hagrid didn't realise the significance of the
"I don't be needing it anymore" at the time. Hagrid has been focused on
getting Harry out of the ruins. He emerges and is joined by Sirius. They
have an argument about who should take Harry, Sirius gives Hagrid the bike
and away he goes in search of Peter.

Hagrid thinks "oh well, just Sirius being melodramatic again, you know what
he's like".

Later he realises what Sirius really meant.

Cheers

Ffred

O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon
Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion
Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue Mar  9 19:41:15 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 19:41:15 -0000
Subject: Dudley's development
In-Reply-To: <c2l48t+offb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2l6kr+osjp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92568

Geoff wrote:
> 
> (PS "The Boy Who Lived" p.8 UK edition)
> 
> ..and when Professor McGonagall objects to Harry being brought to 
the 
> Dursleys, she remarks.....
> 
> "And they've got this son - I saw him kicking his mother all the 
way 
> up the street, screaming for sweets."
> 
> (same chapter p.15)
> 
> I don't recall either of my sons being strong enough to throw 
cereal 
> at the walls when they were sixteen months; in a temper, they 
might 
> push the dish off the high chair or spit the cereal out.
> 
> Again, a child of this age with the ability to walk up the street 
and 
> kick Mum and also scream recognisably and specifically for sweets 
> must be a fast developer, don't you think?



Potioncat:
I think a 16 month old could throw cereal, perhaps not the bowl and 
all, but certainly blobs of goo!

As for the kicking, perhaps Petunia was carrying him?  She seems the 
type. And a 16 month old could kick and squirm and fuss if being 
carried.
Potioncat




From J.Z.Dench at uel.ac.uk  Tue Mar  9 10:12:04 2004
From: J.Z.Dench at uel.ac.uk (Jospehine)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 10:12:04 -0000
Subject: Chat - shorter summer at Dursleys
In-Reply-To: <711DE40E-6EBB-11D8-9058-000393987376@glue.umd.edu>
Message-ID: <c2k59k+2cav@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92569

 Samnanya  wrote:

 <<Which to me means that he must leave before his 16th birthday (In SS
 he leaves with Dursleys 2 days before his 11th Birthday)
 Hmmmm wonder WHY he leaves and abandons protection that staying in
 Privet Drive provides, especially considering that the Second War has
 begun.>>

Maria:
<<I also liked this question. Regarding the protection you mention, i 
had the impression that Harry would be protected if he spends some time 
every year with his blood relative, but that doesn't mean as much 
time possible, i think.>>

jozoed (now): Judging by Harry's behaviour in OOTP- his frustration 
and anger with anyone and everyone- I wonder if Harry will disregard 
Dumbledore's advice/ protection about Privet Drive. In the UK, once 
you are 16 you are legally entitled to leave home. I wouldn't be 
surprised if Harry chooses to leave the Dursleys of his own accord. 
And go where? Well *if* he inherits Grimmauld Place he may move in 
there? 

Plus Dumbledore said that the protection of Privet Drive remained as 
long as Harry could call it 'home'. Well I live in my own house, with 
my husband... but when I visit my folks I still say I'm 'going home'.

Just a thought.

jozoed (who is still a relatively new poster, previously posting only 
two responses both of which have upset the house elves! Sorry for 
that- I was too excited about finally being able to chat non-stop 
about HP!!)





From c_robocker at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  9 13:56:58 2004
From: c_robocker at yahoo.com (c_robocker)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 13:56:58 -0000
Subject: When did Fudge change his mind?
In-Reply-To: <20040309075102.5040.qmail@web61109.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c2kifa+i7h4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92570

Elihu wrote:
Fudge's reaction to the possibility of LV's return was expected by 
Dumbledore, but seems to go against something he said in PA10: "I 
must say, You-Know-Who alone and friendless is one thing...but give 
him back his most devoted servant [meaning Black], and I shudder to 
think how quickly he'll rise again...."
  
18 months later, when Dumbledore mentions LV's return to power, and 
Black still out, he says "You-Know-Who returns? Preposterous. Come 
now, Dumbledore..."[GF36] And when Umbridge brings Harry to 
Dumbledore after the DA was almost caught, Fudge says "Or is there 
the usual simple explanation involving a reversal of time, a dead 
man [Voldemort] coming back to life, and a couple of invisible 
dementors?", each of those being considered impossible.
 
When did Fudge change his mind?

CRobo writes:

That's one of the reasons I love these books and find this group so 
interesting.  In the last few messages this morning, someone has 
understood them to mean something that I did not (ref Hand of Glory 
post) - but either could be correct!

I read this one as sarcasm from Fudge.

CRobo




From kashelkar at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  9 08:47:49 2004
From: kashelkar at yahoo.com (kashelkar)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 08:47:49 -0000
Subject: hello...
Message-ID: <c2k0bl+9i4u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92571

hello everyone,

I'm newly added to this group.....  I just wanted to tell somebody 
some things I noticed while reading the latest HP5 book ie. OotP, so 
I thought of joining this group.  I really don't think this HP5 OotP 
is in any way as good as any of the previous books...

The biggest flaw in this book seems to be the basic plot.  I'm not 
still convinced why Voldemort didn't just apparate near the 97th row 
of shelves in the Dept of Mysteries, picked up the prophecy and 
Disapparate.  Apparation & disapparation is definitely possible 
inside the Dept of Mysteries, unlike Hogwarts.
Or else, (if he didn't really want to go there himself) he could have 
used any of his deputies to pick the glass orb "without touching" it 
(wingardium leviosa!!!).

Also, even towards the end when Voldemort lures Harry and the members 
of DA into the dept of Mysteries, isn't it the simplest just to tip 
off the Ministry officials (Lucius telling Fudge) of the illegal 
break-in, and the Ministry officials alongwith aurors would simply 
arrest the DA members, expel them from hogwarts and punish them 
severely, (what Fudge, umbridge are dying to do for long...) 
Also, most probably the members of the Order, who are on their way to 
the MoM at that time, including Sirius, shall fall into the hands of 
the ministry aurors as a free bonus!!!  What a pity Voldemort doesn't 
think of this simplest solution to all his troubles........  With DA 
demolished and OotP members imprisoned, what r the chances that 
D'dore'd be able to do anything to stop Voldemort??

Also, the 5th year has ended, but Harry has not learnt Occlumency...  
So won't Voldemort be able to 'make him do things'  at his Aunt's 
house?   We'll know abt that only in the 6th book....

There are still more small flaws spread all over the book.  The death 
of Sirius, the fighting between DA and death-eaters seem  
meaningless, and lack substance...  but more abt that in my next 
mail...  Till that time, I'd like to know what you think about my 
views. Thanks.

Bye then
with best regards.





From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Tue Mar  9 19:48:42 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 19:48:42 -0000
Subject: Imperio'd Member of the Order (WAS: Snape's position)
In-Reply-To: <c2l1mu+1005s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2l72q+bc3u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92572

snip
>  I'm still sure  ESE!Lupin is the spy but much more obviously, it 
> could be Snape.  We never did find out what happened to that 
> missing invisibility cloak. Did Podmore have it when he was 
> arrested or did it fall into Voldemort's hands?
> 
>  If so, then there might have been an invisible Death Eater in the 
> room when Sirius died. And of course it wouldn't be the first time 
> that Snape used an invisibility cloak to sneak up on Harry.
> 
> 
> Pippin

Oh Pippin, bless you!  Another bad boy Snape post.  I was beginning 
to feel like the lone Snape doubter. I don't buy the ESE!Lupin theory 
(too much of a bleeding heart, I'm afrad) but there has to be 
something more to what is going on with Snape.  He should be dead.  
since he's not dead "poor Snape, always looking out for Harry" 
doesn't fly with me. If he was unable to stop the events at the MoM 
from happening or warn Harry that it was coming what use is he to the 
Order anyway?  What is he actually doing when everyone else is trying 
to stop LV from getting the "weapon"?

Where *is* Snape when all of these things happen to Harry?  The only 
thing we know for sure is that he isn't there (or at least, we can't 
see him) we only have Snape's word for his where abouts at the time 
of the MoM at least.  I think it is just as likely that lovely Bella 
did send the curse that killed Sirius, but the image of Snape in an 
invisibility cloak, zapping him through the vail is appealing.  

As I said in an earlier post however, having Sirius alive and access 
to Kreacher as a spy in the Order's headquarters might be a good 
thing for Voldy and his crew. With Sirius dead, will creature still 
be around?  I'm with the head on the wall group here.  Not much use 
to Malfoy that way.

Sue




From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Tue Mar  9 19:56:09 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 19:56:09 -0000
Subject: JKR chat--Snape the coward or the one left forever?
In-Reply-To: <c2kp46+3o84@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2l7gp+p9c2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92573

snip
> During the recent JKR chat in response to the question 'Why 
specifically does 
> Dumbledore trust Snape?' ; JK Rowling replies -> "Another excellent 
and non-answerable question. I shall merely say that Snape has given 
Dumbledore his story and Dumbledore believes it."  
> I take this to mean that even if Snape is a double agent, he is 
loyal to DD.  Whether Voldie knows this or not is a BIG question.
> 
> Rachael

Thanks for the response Rachael, just one comment.  "Snape has given 
Dumbledore his story and Dumbledore believes it."  could also be 
taken in a different light: just becuase DD believes it doesn't make 
it true.  DD beleived keeping Harry in the dark was the right thing 
also, he later discovered it had deadly consequences.  He's 
brilliant, but he isn't always right.

Sue




From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Tue Mar  9 20:02:19 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 20:02:19 -0000
Subject: What's in it for the Dursleys (Was On the other hand.....)
In-Reply-To: <c2kteg+8v20@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2l7sb+51k8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92574

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mad_maxime" <mad_maxime at h...> 
wrote:
> HunterGreen wrote:
> > Over and over again in each book, the Dursleys rights as guardians
> > are ignored, yet they are expected to still let Harry have a room
> > in their house.
> 
> > Meri wrote:
> > This quote struck me for some reason, and I was reminded of the 
Peck
> > of Owls chapter in OP. Aunt Petunia obviously has some connections
> > to the WW that even her husband doesn't know about. Could there be
> > some overriding reason, other that DD's howlers, that keeps the 
door
> > open for Harry every summer after Hoogwarts lets out? I doubt that
> > there is monetary compensation, so what could this connection be?
> > Any thoughts?
> 
> My response (Max):
> 
> I'm new to this list, so forgive me if this has been mentioned 
before.
>  My theory is that Dumbledore's protective charm extends to Petunia
> and probably Dudley as well.  It is, after all, a blood charm.  
> 
> I think that Dumbledore made it clear to Petunia that she and her
> family were in as much danger as Harry.  Therefore, if she agreed to
> take him in, her family would be protected as well (not sure about
> Vernon). In other words, no Harry, no protection for her family. 
> Seems like a strong motivation to me.
> 
> There's another reason why I believe Harry is not the only one
> protected by the blood charm.  If that were true, than all Voldemort
> or a DE would have to do to get to him is to knock off Petunia, 
which
> would be insanely easy to carry out. So, imo, for the protection to 
be
> believable at all, it must also extend to Petunia.
> 
> Max

Excellent point Max and I think you are absolutely right.  I wonder 
again what Dudley's worst memory was?  Perhaps someone tried to get 
to him before.  This could be Dudley's worst Summer ever if they all 
have to spend it cooped up inside #4 so they don't get slaudered by 
the approaching DE's

One note on HunterGreen's post, I am not convinced that there has not 
been monetary compensation for the Dursleys. There would be no reason 
for DD not to provide money to raise Harry, either in a lump sum up 
front or in payments to Petunia in Muggle money throughout Harry's 
time with them.  Perhaps one of the requirements of them was that 
they give him a Christmas gift every year. Explains the old socks and 
tissue.

Sue




From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Tue Mar  9 20:08:09 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 20:08:09 -0000
Subject: Dudley's development
In-Reply-To: <c2l582+8igo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2l879+nk5f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92575

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" <rredordead at a...> 
wrote:
> Geoff Bannister wrote:
> > Going back to PS to check on some facts about the Dursleys, 
> something curious suddenly struck me as unusual about Dudley.
> > We had a thread a few weeks back about Dudley's birthday and 
> decided that canon evidence pointed to late June, so that when 
Harry 
> arrived at Privet Drive, Dudley was about sixteen months old.
> > 
> > We are told that:> 
> > "Mr.Dursley..... tried to kiss Dudley goodbye but missed because 
> > Dudley was now having a tantrum and throwing his cereal at the 
> walls."
> > (PS "The Boy Who Lived" p.8 UK edition)
> > 
> > ..and when Professor McGonagall objects to Harry being brought to 
> the Dursleys, she remarks.....
> > "And they've got this son - I saw him kicking his mother all the 
> way up the street, screaming for sweets."
> > (same chapter p.15)
> 
> > I don't recall either of my sons being strong enough to throw 
> cereal at the walls when they were sixteen months; in a temper, 
they 
> might push the dish off the high chair or spit the cereal out.
> > Again, a child of this age with the ability to walk up the street 
> and kick Mum and also scream recognisably and specifically for 
sweets 
> > must be a fast developer, don't you think?
> 
> Mandy here:
> Great catch!  The throwing of cereal could happen accidentally.  
> Babies for flex their arms suddenly while eating and if any food 
was 
> stuck it would come off and fly against the wall.  But the walking 
> and kicking!  Highly unlikely.  Walking occurs between 12-15 
months.  
> Having the ability to kick at a target and balance while kicking 
> would be extremely rare in a 16 month old.  
> 
> Hum, a magical Dudley surfaces again.
> 
> Cheers, Mandy

I always invisioned Dudley in a stroller, kicking his mother.  My 
oldest had her first "real" tantrum at 15 months, on more than one 
occasion nailed me with a well placed foot or fist, and a lot of kids 
can say candy before they say mommy.

Sue, who begs "please...no more magic people at #4 Privet Dr."




From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Tue Mar  9 20:21:28 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 20:21:28 -0000
Subject: On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
In-Reply-To: <c2j019+agrh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2l908+sppl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92576

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" <stevejjen at e...> wrote:
> 
> Jen: Personally, I'm hoping the Dursley's decision to take Harry in 
> will be a little less fear and loathing and a little more 
> manipulation and mayhem. "What's in it for us?" Vernon asked, 
> quietly. 
> 
Kneasy:
A reasonable (if mercenary) thought. One small snag - who do  they
bicker with and  how?

So far as we know no-one from the WW has met them face to face
and the Dursleys  don't seem to have a method of contacting DD
and his merry crew. That  makes negotiations a bit problematical.

I suppose they could suspend Harry over a barbeque in the back garden
and wait for somebody to come galloping to the rescue, but the little
toe-rag would probably  use his own in-built skin-saver to escape.

DD reads  the Muggle newspapers, so they could always put in a
suitably noticeable ad: "Found near Godrics Hollow - a  sacrificial lamb.
Open to offers. Box XYZ." That'd make him shift. Make the DEs perk
their ears up too.

Jen:
> You make a persuasive point, though, Vernon-as-poster-child for the 
> Muggle Protection Act is really a compelling idea when you think 
> about it.
> 

Kneasy:
Good oh. Vernon on a poster looking like a pink, dyspeptic walrus, 
sporting a T-shirt that reads "Muggles are Magic" - an absolute must is
that on his head is the traditional knotted hankerchief;  that plus the 
obligatory baggy ex-army shorts, knee length socks and orthopaedic 
sandals produces a vision of suburban hom. sap. in all it's splendour.

 
> Jen: Or they figure a little starvation, occasional thrashing and 
> the locked cupboard make it bearable for themselves while they have 
> to offer houseroom? In return, they can live completely Wizard-free 
> lives! Maybe they will even get their memories erased of this whole 
> shebang if they just keep Harry alive until a certain age! The 
> possibilities for their bribery are endless, since they are after 
> all bribing Wizards.
> 

Kneasy:
Wackford Squeers lives! -  one of the early exponents of the 'tough-love'
(I love to be tough) theory of child  care. Pity Vernon doesn't read more
Dickens, it's full of interesting ideas. Hmm. You could almost cast HP
from Dickens - Snape as Murdstone, McGonagall as Betsy Trotwood,
Sirius as Magwitch, Ron as Herbert Pocket, DD as Christmas Present,
Petunia as Mrs Joe, the possibilities are fascinating. 

The trouble with bribing or blackmailing wizards  is the possibility
that you may come home to find a Welsh Green on the living-room
shagpile. And you  can never get the dung out of the carpet or the
scorch-marks off the woodwork. Unfair, really.

> Jen, hoping Vernon doesn't wind up on a pedestal in the end....

Kneasy:
He might, but it'd be labelled "Dursley Agonistes."




From DBoyken at aol.com  Tue Mar  9 20:56:05 2004
From: DBoyken at aol.com (Deb)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 20:56:05 -0000
Subject: Dudley's development
In-Reply-To: <c2l582+8igo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2lb15+nfod@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92578

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" <rredordead at a...> 
wrote:
> Geoff Bannister wrote:
> ..and when Professor McGonagall objects to Harry being brought to 
> the Dursleys, she remarks.....
> > "And they've got this son - I saw him kicking his mother all the 
> way up the street, screaming for sweets."
> > (same chapter p.15)

Unless, of course, Aunt Petunia was CARRYING Dudley down the street 
so that he was kicking her directly (though, babies usually start 
walking around 12 months, so he COULD have been walking himself)--and 
who said he had to be yelling in words, to be screaming for sweets? 
He could have just been pointing to some candy his Mom had and, well, 
screaming! 

Deb in NJ




From jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net  Tue Mar  9 21:22:50 2004
From: jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net (Robert Jones)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 21:22:50 -0000
Subject: Is Hermione Older or Younger than Harry?
In-Reply-To: <c2l01b+livq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2lcja+8bgj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92579

So I've read the replies to the question, and I'm still bewildered.  
I would add on more comment to the mix.  Wouldn't Hermione have 
blurted out that she was younger than most students in the first 
scene with her on Hogwarts Express in Book 1 when she was nervously 
telling Harry and Ron how she had already read the text books and 
had done a little magic?

Of course, this assumes JKR was even aware of the issue.  I doubt if 
she expected her readers to pour over every detail and come up with 
every imaginable issue.

Boris the (as always) Bewildered




From jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net  Tue Mar  9 21:29:01 2004
From: jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net (Robert Jones)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 21:29:01 -0000
Subject: Will Hogwarts be Attacked?
Message-ID: <c2lcut+hfpg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92580

In Book 1, when Hagrid is telling Harry about the first LV war, he 
says that LV "didn't done try takin' the school, not jus then, 
anyways."  This suggests that JKR is thinking of having LV attack 
Hogwarts this time.  Ooh, that would be fun.

(This issue may have come up recently.  There were some posts on the 
defenses at Hogwarts but I didn't read them and I can't find them 
now with the Search function.)

Bobby




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  9 21:59:33 2004
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 21:59:33 -0000
Subject: Need Quote: Help with Sirius's Motorcyle - More
In-Reply-To: <c2e0jc+hh00@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2leo5+am8p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92581

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:

> Since the subject of Sirius's motorbike came up in the Chat, it
> reminded me of something I heard about a long time ago, but never
> paid much attention too.
> 
> In the USA edition of PS/SS (paraphrased) Hagrid said he needed to
> return Sirius's motorbike to him, BUT in the UK edition, it said
> that, roughly, Hagrid needed to put it away.
> 
> Is there anyone who has both books who would like to look that up
> and quote the differences here for me.
> 
> Thank you for your help.
> 
> bboy_mn


bboy_mn:

Hi, me again with a request for some additional help.

Could all you kind souls help my by checking various copies and
versions for the first reference to Sirius in PS/SS?


My paperback Scholastic US vession pg 18 goes as follows-

"Borrowed it, Professor Dumbledore, sir," said the giant, climbing
carefully off the motorcycle as he spoke. "Young Sirius Black lent it
to me. I've got him, sir."


That is the only other reference that I know of to Sirius Black in the
first book, and is about two paperback pages away from the place where
Hagrid speaks of returning the motorbike.

Seems odd when the pages are so close together that it was necessary
for Hagrid to mention Sirius by name the second time.

Thank again.

bboy_mn





From belijako at online.no  Tue Mar  9 22:14:38 2004
From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 22:14:38 -0000
Subject: Need Quote: Help with Sirius's Motorcyle - More
In-Reply-To: <c2leo5+am8p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2lfke+uqau@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92582

bboy_mn wrote:
 
Hi, me again with a request for some additional help.

Could all you kind souls help my by checking various copies and
versions for the first reference to Sirius in PS/SS?

My paperback Scholastic US vession pg 18 goes as follows-
 
"Borrowed it, Professor Dumbledore, sir," said the giant, climbing
carefully off the motorcycle as he spoke. "Young Sirius Black lent it
to me. I've got him, sir."

Berit replies:

The UK Edition (Bloomsbury) is more or less identical:
"'Borrowed it, Profesor Dumbledore, sir,' said the giant, climbing 
carefully off the motorbike as he spoke. 'Young Sirius Black lent it 
me. I've got him, sir.'" (p. 16)

As you already know, the Bloomsbury edition does not mention Sirius's 
name twice; Hagrid only says "I'd best get this bike away" when he 
leaves Privet Drive. I consider the UK edition as more "canon" than 
any other edition I must say :-)

Berit
http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html




From tommy_m_riddle at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  9 22:21:56 2004
From: tommy_m_riddle at yahoo.com (Sarah)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 14:21:56 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Will Hogwarts be Attacked?
References: <c2lcut+hfpg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <008701c40624$eea693a0$9701a8c0@odyssey.local>

No: HPFGUIDX 92583

Robert:
> This suggests that JKR is thinking of having LV attack
> Hogwarts this time.  Ooh, that would be fun.

Sarah:
I'm almost certain he will.  I think he'll succeed, too.  He'll put Lucius
Malfoy in charge, so that the elves will have a reason to take their hats.

Sarah




From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  9 22:32:34 2004
From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (drjuliehoward)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 22:32:34 -0000
Subject: Need Quote: Help with Sirius's Motorcyle - More
In-Reply-To: <c2lfke+uqau@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2lgm2+qikp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92584

<snip>
> As you already know, the Bloomsbury edition does not mention 
Sirius's 
> name twice; Hagrid only says "I'd best get this bike away" when he 
> leaves Privet Drive. I consider the UK edition as more "canon" 
than 
> any other edition I must say :-)
> 
> Berit
> http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html

IMO, "I'd best get this bike away" is much different from "I've ot 
to return this to Sirius."  Getting it away may simply mean out of a 
Muggle neighborhood.  Any other UK canon evidence that Hagrid 
intended to return it to Sirius?

Julie




From jmmears at comcast.net  Tue Mar  9 22:38:36 2004
From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 22:38:36 -0000
Subject: Is Hermione Older or Younger than Harry?
In-Reply-To: <c2k5nr+q35t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2lh1c+v9gk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92585

> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snapesmate" 
> wrote:
> 
> >> Yes, JKR actually stated hermione was 10 when she started at 
> Hogwarts during an interview.  Of course, I now cannot find the 
> confounded thing.  I have researched so many over the last 2 days 
> that for the life of me I cannot remember where I read the 
> transcript of the chat.  I do remember it was a webchat though!  I 
> will keep looking for it because I know we all like "proof" in the 
> way of dates and "locations" of chats and interviews, LOL!  Not 
> proof as in we do not believe each other, but as in we like to 
> reference it for ourselves...>>>


I'd like to add a "me too" to the request to anyone who could 
provide a link to a webchat, newspaper/magazine interview or any 
authoritative source (other than that confounded DVD timeline <g>) 
where JKR directly addresses this issue.  Of all the spirited 
discussion topics we've had on HPfGU, the ones dealing with 
Hermione's age when she began Hogwarts are probably among the most 
trivial as far as the plot's concerned.  Yet, something about it 
really seems to touch a nerve with many listmembers.  I used to 
think that it was only shippers who had some strong feeling that she 
just *had* to be younger than Harry for the ship to "feel right", 
but now I just think that it's more general frustration with trying 
to get JKR's world to fit together coherently.

Ali wrote:
 
> I think a lot of people would be grateful if you could find that 
> interview - largely to shut me up about Hermione's age. Until the 
> timeline was published on the CoS DVD, I was aware of no *proof* 
of 
> Hermione's age. I could be wrong, but I don't think that it had 
ever 
> been said. Certainly, the Lexicon had placed Hermione's birthday 
as 
> after Harry's, but that was not cast in stone - at least, not 
until 
> JKR confirmed the timeline.



Well, *I* don't want you to shut up about Hermione's age because I 
absolutely agree with you!  I know that the Lexicon has placed 
her birthday in 1980, but I believe that the only canon basis for 
this was Dumbledore's statement in PoA about Harry and Hermione 
being "two 13 year old wizards".  I sympathize with Steve's task in 
addressing this topic in the Lexicon and needing to draw the line 
somewhere in what consititues "canon" support, but IMO this single 
statement is the weakest of evidence (although, it's really all 
there is at the moment in all 5 books).  After all, if we want to be 
technically correct, Hermione is not a wizard, she's a witch but no 
one would expect Dumbledore to have said "13 year old *witch* and 
wizard"; it's too clunky to read properly. By the same token, I 
don't really think we can reasonably expect Dumbledore to have 
memorized each student's birthdate and to carefully calibrate his 
statement, ie "a 13 year old wizard and 14 year old witch", so it's 
not unreasonable to assume that he would refer to all students in 
their third year as "13 year old wizards".

In addition, the fact that Angelina J. has her 17th birthday in 
October while she's in her 6th year, seems to be pretty persuasive 
evidence that Hogwarts is consistent with the British school 
system's August 31 cut-off date.  Otherwise, one has to assume a cut-
off between Sept. 19 (Hermione's birthday) and mid-October, and that 
simply doesn't make any sense, to me.

Ali wrote:
 
> I only reopened this argument up at the weekend, in post 92319. 
For 
> what it's worth, I now think that JKR would probably make Hermione 
> younger than Harry, because it would be easier to make up some 
> rationale for the Hogwarts school year being different to the 
> English school year or more probably that Hermione was a special 
> case, than it would be to admit that she didn't think the age 
thing 
> through.


I expect that you are probably right (unfortunately) in that JKR 
would do what you suggest, although I would think that the cleanest 
way out for her would be to say that Hermione's birthday is really 
August 29th, and leave it at that.  At least that way, she can still 
keep the same astrological sign (Virgo), if that actually matters to 
anyone.

Ali continued:

 I also think it's harder than ever to argue that Hogwarts 
> runs on different terms to English schools when prior to Hogwarts, 
> the kids were either educated at home, or in Muggle primary 
schools.

That's my sticking point as well.  I think that the reason so many 
American listmembers don't have a problem with thinking that she's a 
year younger is that schools in the US have wildly differing cutoff 
dates (state to state, public vs private) and tend to be fairly 
flexible about when they allow parents to enroll their kids in first 
grade.  As you've pointed out, this is not the case in the UK, and 
Hogwarts would have to follow the standard British schedule in order 
to accomodate all the muggle-born students.  It just doesn't make 
sense to me that Hermione was a unique case of early admission if it 
hasn't been specifically addressed in any of the five books so far.


Jo S., who's joined this discussion very late, but still insists 
on "old" Hermione until she gets a darn good explaination from JKR 
<g>





From nkafkafi at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  9 22:44:37 2004
From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 22:44:37 -0000
Subject: Will Hogwarts be Attacked?
In-Reply-To: <008701c40624$eea693a0$9701a8c0@odyssey.local>
Message-ID: <c2lhcl+9fl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92586

Robert:
> This suggests that JKR is thinking of having LV attack
> Hogwarts this time. Ooh, that would be fun.

Sarah:
I'm almost certain he will. I think he'll succeed, too. He'll put 
Lucius
Malfoy in charge, so that the elves will have a reason to take their 
hats.

Neri:
I'm sure this was pointed before, but Hogwarts *is* a castle, so it 
will be only fitting to have a siege. I assume it will serve nicely 
for the climax of Book 6 or even Book 7. The armies of the Dark Side 
will be mainly dementors and DEs, but there might be goblins and 
giants on both sides. JKR also mentioned in some interview that we 
will meet Aragog again. Perhaps even the centaurs will finally decide 
to meddle with the wizards wars. Sounds like WB will need some advice 
from Peter Jackson on special effects.

Neri 






From JessaDrow at aol.com  Tue Mar  9 22:44:49 2004
From: JessaDrow at aol.com (JessaDrow at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 17:44:49 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Need Quote: Help with Sirius's Motorcyle - More
Message-ID: <194.25c28502.2d7fa2e1@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92587

On page 18 of the American version of ss "Borrowed it, Professor Dumbledore, 
sir," said the giant, climbing carefully off the motorcycle as he spoke. 
"Young Sirius Black lent it to me. I've got him, sir."

And then on page 20 of the same book, "Yeah," said Hadrig in a very muffled 
voice, "I'll be taking Sirius his bike back. G'night, Professor 
McGonagall--Professor Dumbledore, sir."

Hope this helps,

Faith 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gbannister10 at aol.com  Tue Mar  9 22:44:58 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 22:44:58 -0000
Subject: Dudley's development
In-Reply-To: <c2lb15+nfod@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2lhda+77n1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92588

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Deb" <DBoyken at a...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" 
<rredordead at a...> 
> wrote:
> > Geoff Bannister wrote:
> > ..and when Professor McGonagall objects to Harry being brought to 
> > the Dursleys, she remarks.....
> > > "And they've got this son - I saw him kicking his mother all 
the 
> > way up the street, screaming for sweets."
> > > (same chapter p.15)

Deb:
> Unless, of course, Aunt Petunia was CARRYING Dudley down the street 
> so that he was kicking her directly (though, babies usually start 
> walking around 12 months, so he COULD have been walking himself)--
and 
> who said he had to be yelling in words, to be screaming for sweets? 
> He could have just been pointing to some candy his Mom had and, 
well, 
> screaming! 

Geoff:
Looking at one or two comments made by various posters, folks, 
this /is/ Mrs.Petunia Dursley, wife of the successful director of an 
engineering company. She would not be carrying her child down the 
street. (We were fairly ordinary folk and when our flock were at that 
age and we were out, they were in pushchairs - too darned heavy to 
carry for any length of time). Also, I can't see Petunia carrying 
little Dudley (little did I say?) and a bag of sweets at the same 
time; it wouldn't be quite the right thing in Privet Drive, now would 
it?...... Can I remind you of Fiona Shaw's analysis of the Dursleys 
which I quoted in message 92491?

If he was in a pushchair, then he wouldn't be in a position to kick 
Mum.

Also, on the question of speaking, by about 16 months, our children 
were possessed of a very small vocabulary, and many words would be 
quite indistinct.

I still think there's something odd about young DD.




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  9 22:48:39 2004
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 22:48:39 -0000
Subject: Need Quote: Help with Sirius's Motorcyle - More
In-Reply-To: <c2lgm2+qikp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2lhk7+iqsm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92589

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "drjuliehoward"
<drjuliehoward at y...> wrote:
> <snip>
> > As you already know, the Bloomsbury edition does not mention 
> > Sirius's name twice; Hagrid only says "I'd best get this bike
> > away" when he leaves Privet Drive. I consider the UK edition as 
> > more  "canon" than  any other edition I must say :-)
> > 
> > Berit
> > http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html


> 
> IMO, "I'd best get this bike away" is much different from "I've ot 
> to return this to Sirius."  Getting it away may simply mean out of a 
> Muggle neighborhood.  Any other UK canon evidence that Hagrid 
> intended to return it to Sirius?
> 
> Julie


bboy_mn:

I took the UK version, '...get this bike away...' as a Brit-Speak
truncation of that statement '...best get this bike PUT away...'
implying that he is going to store it in some fashion. 

If the statement is taken in a very general fashion, he is saying, 'I
have to do something about this bike'.  In a sense, saying that his
night isn't over until he has somehow resolved his possession of the
bike, whether that be by returning it, abandoning it, ditching it, or
storing it, it has to be deal with before he can end his night.

The US edition has taken this general statement or Hagrid's implied
statement that he is simply going to store the bike (put it away), and
shifted it to specifically returning it to Sirius.

This is very much like that changing of the words 'one more curse' to
'one more death' in GoF. It does make some logical sense, and the
editor may have thought he was clearing up some vagueness, but any of
these details could become very important in future books. 

If these problem occur between one English edition and another, I
can't imagine the nightmare of problems that occur when book are
translated into foriegn languages.

Just a few thoughts.

bboy_mn





From yswahl at stis.net  Tue Mar  9 23:39:15 2004
From: yswahl at stis.net (samnanya)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 23:39:15 -0000
Subject: Will Hogwarts be Attacked? Siege not needed
In-Reply-To: <c2lhcl+9fl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2lkj3+116pb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92590

nkafkafi
This suggests that JKR is thinking of having LV attack
Hogwarts this time. Ooh, that would be fun.
 
Neri:
I'm sure this was pointed before, but Hogwarts *is* a castle, so it 
will be only fitting to have a siege. I assume it will serve nicely 
for the climax of Book 6 or even Book 7. The armies of the Dark Side 
will be mainly dementors and DEs, but there might be goblins and 
giants on both sides. JKR also mentioned in some interview that we 
will meet Aragog again. Perhaps even the centaurs will finally decide 
to meddle with the wizards wars. Sounds like WB will need some advice 
from Peter Jackson on special effects.

Samnanya
A siege would not be needed. There are I believe 8 secret passages 
that would let the invaders in - and many are not even guarded....
(Marauder's map clues) ... and also the passage caved in by Gilderoy, 
which was referred to later.
Plus the fathers of at least four of the Slytherin students are known 
death eaters so they can come to Hogwarts on parent-teachers night 
so-to-speak.

 




From jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net  Tue Mar  9 23:41:18 2004
From: jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net (Robert Jones)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 23:41:18 -0000
Subject: Is Hermione Older or Younger than Harry?
In-Reply-To: <c2lh1c+v9gk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2lkmu+1042r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92591

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "serenadust" <jmmears at c...> 
wrote:
Of all the spirited discussion topics we've had on HPfGU, the ones 
dealing with Hermione's age when she began Hogwarts are probably 
among the most trivial as far as the plot's concerned.  Yet, 
something about it really seems to touch a nerve with many 
listmembers.  I used to think that it was only shippers who had some 
strong feeling that she just *had* to be younger than Harry for the 
ship to "feel right", but now I just think that it's more general 
frustration with trying to get JKR's world to fit together 
coherently.


Bobby: The shipping angle never occurred to me.  Shippers can get 
emotional about the issue, but JKR has already had Harry going out 
with an "older" girl (Cho), so I hope shippers don't get too excited 
about this question.




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Tue Mar  9 23:45:18 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 23:45:18 -0000
Subject: Dudley's development
In-Reply-To: <c2lhda+77n1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2lkue+ggfk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92592

Geoff Bannister wrote:
> > > ..and when Professor McGonagall objects to Harry being brought 
> > > to the Dursleys, she remarks.....
> > > > "And they've got this son - I saw him kicking his mother all 
> > > the way up the street, screaming for sweets."
> > > > (same chapter p.15)
 
Deb:
> > Unless, of course, Aunt Petunia was CARRYING Dudley down the 
> > street so that he was kicking her directly (though, babies 
> > usually start walking around 12 months, so he COULD have been 
> > walking himself)--and who said he had to be yelling in words, to 
> > be screaming for sweets? He could have just been pointing to 
> > some candy his Mom had and, well, screaming! 
 
Geoff:
> Looking at one or two comments made by various posters, folks, 
> this /is/ Mrs.Petunia Dursley, wife of the successful director of 
> an engineering company. She would not be carrying her child down 
> the street. (We were fairly ordinary folk and when our flock were 
> at that age and we were out, they were in pushchairs - too darned 
> heavy to carry for any length of time). Also, I can't see Petunia 
> carrying little Dudley (little did I say?) and a bag of sweets at 
> the same time; it wouldn't be quite the right thing in Privet 
> Drive, now would it?...... Can I remind you of Fiona Shaw's 
> analysis of the Dursleys which I quoted in message 92491?

> If he was in a pushchair, then he wouldn't be in a position to 
> kick Mum.
> 
> Also, on the question of speaking, by about 16 months, our 
> children were possessed of a very small vocabulary, and many words 
> would be quite indistinct.
> 
> I still think there's something odd about young DD.

Susan:
I don't agree, Geoff.  I truly believe that either JKR was just 
having a little fun and not worrying *too much* about gross motor 
skill development in a 16-month-old, or perhaps Petunia was just 
taking Dudders down the street a couple of houses to see a 
neighbor.  

I took my daughter out at that age and let her toddle down the 
sidewalk with me, then picked her up when she couldn't keep up.  I 
think it's really nit-picking to say Mrs. Dursley wouldn't have been 
seen carrying a child.  Why is that "bad"??  

And if we're going to get into that, both my kids had fairly large 
[100 words or more] vocabularies at 16 months.  As someone else 
noted, and as I said rather jokingly, kids learn the words which 
mean the most to them first.  For my daughter, it was "kitty" 
first.  For someone like Dudley, I can imagine its having 
been "treat!" or "candy!" or "GIMME!" or some such thing.  I mean, 
look at the kid when we first meet him at age 11, pitching a fit 
over the number of his b'day gifts, demanding more, and also being 
grossly overweight.  I think Dudders likely learned to express his 
demands early on...and that that was all JKR was doing in sharing 
these episodes with us.  He was a BRAT who screamed at his parents 
to get what he wanted.

For what it's worth, Petunia may care a lot about appearances, but 
the Dursleys still strike me as somewhat gauche.  

Oh--and have you ever *seen* what the "average mum" is capable of 
carrying at one moment?  

Siriusly Snapey Susan






From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Mar  9 23:55:52 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 23:55:52 -0000
Subject: Why didn't Voldy grab the Prophecy was Re: hello...
In-Reply-To: <c2k0bl+9i4u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2lli8+48bl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92593

Welcome Kashelkar!

>> The biggest flaw in this book seems to be the basic plot.  I'm 
not  still convinced why Voldemort didn't just apparate near the 
97th row of shelves in the Dept of Mysteries, picked up the 
prophecy and Disapparate.  <<

I don't think it is possible to Apparate or Disapparate directly from 
the Department of Mysteries, at least we don't see anyone doing 
that.  There wouldn't have been much point in setting a guard on 
the door otherwise. Harry's dreams don't take him any further 
into the Department than the door until Rookwood is restored to 
his master. Presumably Rookwood was able to tell Voldemort 
exactly what he would find beyond the door, and that is why 
Voldemort was able to project such a convincing vision into 
Harry's mind.

The Ministry believed that Voldemort was the only one, besides 
Harry, who could take the prophecy. Even if there were actually 
other ways to get it, if it disappeared while Harry was known to 
be at Hogwarts, its disappearance would be proof that 
Voldemort had returned. Once Voldemort realized  this, he 
concentrated his efforts on trying to get Harry to retrieve the 
prophecy for him.

Kashelkar:
> Also, even towards the end when Voldemort lures Harry and 
the members  of DA into the dept of Mysteries, isn't it the 
simplest just to tip  off the Ministry officials (Lucius telling
Fudge) 
of the illegal  break-in, and the Ministry officials alongwith aurors 
would simply  arrest the DA members, expel them from 
hogwarts and punish them  severely, (what Fudge, umbridge are 
dying to do for long...)<


Lucius would have had to explain how he knew Harry was 
coming. I also think Voldemort expected Harry to show up 
alone...Voldemort isn't supposed to know about the DA or that 
Harry has told Snape about his vision...Of course he may know 
more than he is supposed to, but unless he wants to make it 
plain that he has a spy in the Order, he has to behave as if  he 
doesn't, always the Catch-22 of espionage. 

Also, your plan doesn't allow Harry to get the prophecy, which 
was the point of the exercise as far as Voldemort was 
concerned. 

Kashelkar:
>> Also, the 5th year has ended, but Harry has not learnt 
Occlumency...   So won't Voldemort be able to 'make him do 
things'  at his Aunt's  house?   We'll know abt that only in the 6th 
book..<<
 

Whether Voldemort can penetrate Harry's mind now that he is 
aware of the force inside it is an open question, but since Harry's 
scar did not hurt once after Voldemort released him, despite the 
rage Voldemort must have been feeling, I would guess that he 
can't, at least for the time being.

I agree that OOP is alot more demanding of the reader. It is so 
packed with incident that the outlines of the story are not always 
clear.
 
Pippin




From hickengruendler at yahoo.de  Wed Mar 10 00:19:28 2004
From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 00:19:28 -0000
Subject: Will Hogwarts be Attacked? Siege not needed
In-Reply-To: <c2lkj3+116pb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2lmug+cud4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92594

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "samnanya" <yswahl at s...> wrote:
> nkafkafi
> This suggests that JKR is thinking of having LV attack
> Hogwarts this time. Ooh, that would be fun.

Hickengruendler:
I don't doubt this. But I am pretty sure it will happen in book 7. 
The finale showdown, and this way many characters will be involved. 
My guess is, that Trelawney will make a third prediction, predicting 
the attack or something this way, so that the good ones can be 
prepared. This could be Dumbledore's reward for his faith in 
Trelawney. I am also sure that the DA is a big hint to the Hogwarts 
attack. I mean, that's the most logical place for them to fight.
>  
> Neri:
>I assume it will serve nicely 
> for the climax of Book 6 or even Book 7. 

Hickengruendler:
Book 7. My prediction is, that Voldemort will win an important battle 
at the end of book 6, maybe taking over the ministry or something 
like this. He has to become greater and more terrible than ever 
before, and he has less time than during the first war. ;-) And then 
in book 7 he will attack Hogwarts, the only safe place during the 
first war.

>The armies of the Dark Side 
> will be mainly dementors and DEs, but there might be goblins and 
> giants on both sides. JKR also mentioned in some interview that we 
> will meet Aragog again. Perhaps even the centaurs will finally 
decide 
> to meddle with the wizards wars. Sounds like WB will need some 
advice 
> from Peter Jackson on special effects.

Hickengruendler:
Yes, this should be fun. Not that I care about any of the creatures 
who live in the Forbidden Forest, but I wouldn't mind see them again 
if they are in action.
 
> Samnanya
>Plus the fathers of at least four of the Slytherin students are 
known 
> death eaters so they can come to Hogwarts on parent-teachers night 
> so-to-speak.

Yes, but they are in Azkaban. Even if they break out, I can't see 
them being invinted to Hogwarts.

Hickengruendler






From nianya_c at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 10 00:31:55 2004
From: nianya_c at yahoo.com (nianya_c)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 00:31:55 -0000
Subject: Something Small
In-Reply-To: <c2j8no+342g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2lnlr+oqh0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92595

Lady McBeth wrote:

I'm not sure if this has been discussed, I searched the archives and 
> didn't find anything, but I might have missed it . . .JKR stated 
that something very small would be a big part of book six.  I've 
heard a couple of interesting theories on what that small thing 
might be, but I've yet to hear anything convincing.  Its been  
discussed elsewhere that the something could be the Weasley clock,  
the car, or Ginny herself.  I'm not sure that any of those are the  
right answer.  I myself am leaning towards the secret compartment  
under the floor in the Malfoy's palace, but I'm not sure why.  Has  
anyone found any other indications of what that small thing is.  

I've spent several days looking for clues.  I'm going to have to go 
back and read COS again tonight.

Lady McBeth


Nianya replied:

Why not Ron's owl....Pig....pretty useless character so far, but 
then he did come from Sirius....any chance he's an animagi? Could 
also be Crookshanks or Hedwig, but they're not as small.

Just a wild thought....be nice.

Nia




From belijako at online.no  Wed Mar 10 00:35:08 2004
From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 00:35:08 -0000
Subject: The Apostle!Marauders...
Message-ID: <c2lnrs+bubc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92596

Since Rowling is a Christian by faith herself, this post might not be 
too long a shot... has anyone else noticed that the Marauders have a 
lot in common with four of the most known/prominent of the disciples 
of Jesus?

Here they are:
"He [Jesus] appointed twelve -designating them apostles... These are 
the twelve he appointed: Simon (to whom he gave the name Peter); 
James son of Zebedee and his brother John (to them he gave the name 
Boanerges, which means Sons of Thunder); Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, 
Matthew, Thomas, James son of Alphaeus, Thaddaeus, Simon the Zealot 
and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him." (Mark 3,17 NIV version of the 
Bible)

There's no doubt the most important of the disciples are the three 
Jesus mentions first; Peter, James and John. Also note that these are 
the only ones who Jesus gives "pet names"! They meant something 
special to him. The disciple that equals those three in fame are the 
last one mentioned, not because he was close the the Master like the 
other three, but because he turned out to be the most famous traitor 
in the history of the world...

Here's my take (all HP quotes are from the UK edition):

James Potter = Bible!Peter
Just like Bible!Peter, James was the natural leader of his little 
gang. Personality-wise they have a lot in common: They're both 
intelligent characters and value truth and bravery and are extremely 
loyal to their friends. Bible!Peter did have one serious slip-up 
where he showed cowardice instead of bravery, but he learned his 
lesson and later became famous for his loyalty and bravery. He was 
willing to die for the cause, which he eventually did. Likewise; 
James Potter also needed to "grow up" (according to Sirius and Lily 
he was a bit conceited...), James Potter also died "for the cause", 
way too young.

Sirius Black = Bible!James (the Son of Thunder)
Impulsive, temperamental, rash, reckless and prone to action: A 
true "Son of Thunder" :-) Bible!James and Sirius Black are both 
characters that are true and fiercely loyal to their friends.  Bible!
James was executed by sword; Sirius died by the "magical sword"; a 
beam from Bella's wand...

Remus John Lupin = John
It was Remus's middle name that got me thinking :-). You might think 
that the quiet and kind Remus can't be compared to Bible!James's 
brother John, the Son of Thunder. But despite the fact that John 
started out as a "son of Thunder" like his brother, that's not what 
he's famous for. John is known as the "apostle of Love"; the meek and 
friendly one that wrote the most famous and beautiful words about 
love in the Bible. His personality fits perfectly with Rowling's 
Remus. Interestingly, John was the only apostle that died of natural 
causes (old age); all the other apostles were killed "in battle". 
Hopefully this means Lupin will live as well :-)

Peter Pettigrew = Judas
This goes without saying I guess :-) Judas betrayed his 
Master/Saviour by turning him over to his enemies; Peter Pettigrew 
betrayed his friends by revealing the whereabouts of "the One with 
the power to vanquish the Dark Lord"... Judas committed suicide when 
he finally realised what he had done; I don't know if Peter Pettigrew 
would; but I can imagine him going on a desperate suicidal "rescue 
mission" to help Harry, as a redemptive measure... After all, he owes 
Harry one.

Severus Snape = Paul
This is an interesting comparison. Paul was originally not among the 
apostles. He was a tireless persecutor of Christians and had a lot of 
them tracked down and killed. He hated the Bible!Marauders :-) After 
a rather shocking personal experience, though, Paul changed his mind 
and decided to join the other side. The Bible!Marauders at first 
didn't want to accept Paul as one of their own; many were, naturally, 
suspicious of his intentions. The boss himself (Bible!God; compare 
to: "'I trust Severus Snape,' said Dumbledore simply." -OoP p. 734 :-
) had to use his powers of persuasion in order to make them accept 
Paul. Paul went on to become the most famous apostle to this day, 
possibly even more famous than Bible!Peter and John. Ring any bells? 
Sounds like our Snape to me :-) I hope Snape too turns out to not 
only prove himself to be trustworthy, but famous for his achievements 
(he'd love to finally get some recognition, wouldn't he :-).
I also have to add that Paul has, like Snape, a brilliant and 
analytical mind, and his books are the ones in the Bible that are the 
most complex and "many-layered" (in Snape's words; it's all 
about "fine distinctions" -OoP p. 468). His explanations on faith, 
for instance, can easily be compared to Snape's enigmatic words on 
the art of Potion-making. Paul is the "Faith Master", as Snape is the 
Potion Master :-)

I have no idea whether the likeness between the Marauders and the 
four most known disciples, and the apostle Paul and Snape are 
intentional on Rowling's part; I seriously doubt it. But it doesn't 
matter: I was having fun with this post :-)

Berit
http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Wed Mar 10 00:37:39 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 00:37:39 -0000
Subject: Something Small
In-Reply-To: <c2lnlr+oqh0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2lo0j+pddh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92597

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nianya_c" <nianya_c at y...> 
wrote:
> Lady McBeth wrote:
> 
> I'm not sure if this has been discussed, I searched the archives 
and 
> > didn't find anything, but I might have missed it . . .JKR stated 
> that something very small would be a big part of book six.  I've 
> heard a couple of interesting theories on what that small thing 
> might be, but I've yet to hear anything convincing. 


Potioncat:
Does anyone have the quote on this?  I've heard it before, but the 
wording was "something small in the Chamber of Secrets."  At the 
time, I thought it was the actual chamber, not the book itself.  It 
also seems that the poster was referring to the movie.

However, nothing I remember reading about it had any quotes.
Potioncat




From jdr0918 at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 10 00:45:19 2004
From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 00:45:19 -0000
Subject: Harry's Future and Career
In-Reply-To: <c2l03c+gbil@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2loev+p764@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92598

<<<In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: ...As far as 
Harry's future and career, I think when this is all over with, Harry 
is going to be sick and tired of fighting and struggle.
For the first time in his life, he is going to want some peace and 
quiet.
He can live a quiet life, and pursue the safe sane leisurely 
activities of his choice.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.>>>

The Sergeant Majorette says

That's my story of choice, too. JKR terrifies me with all that "if-he-
lives" stuff, but this recent quote from Movie Magic magazine (I 
think... link at TLC) gives me hope.

"...the author feels that her motivation has been to create 
an 'antidote' to many of the grimmer novels... 'We've had a glut of 
very gritty, realistic, very bleak books,' says Rowling."

--JDR




From hickengruendler at yahoo.de  Wed Mar 10 00:54:24 2004
From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 00:54:24 -0000
Subject: Ginny's development (was: SHIP: Harry and Hermione)
In-Reply-To: <c2j44m+9thq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2lp00+6u7f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92599

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" 
<justcarol67 at y...> wrote:
  
> As far as I can see from that scene, Ginny is both brave and 
fiercely
> loyal. And she's eleven years old at the time. I agree that we see
> early on that Neville is braver than he thinks he is. But I also 
think
> we see just enough of Ginny that we need not judge her as weak just
> because she was chosen by Lucius Malfoy to be Tom Riddle's victim. 

Hickengruendler:
I agree with you that Ginny is both brave and loyal. I never doubted 
this. Nor do I think, she is or was weak. During the time at CoS she 
was a normal 11th year old girl, who was used for something horrible. 
I thought, that her crush on Harry was superficial and silly, but 
then, that's also very human, and Harry's crush on Cho, Ron's crush 
on Fleur or Hermione's on Gilderoy Lockhart, are also just because of 
superficial reasons. This is not the problem I have with Ginny. The 
problem is, that JKR handled her development not very well. I 
normally think she is excellent in characterisations, far better, for 
example, then Tolkien, who has other strengths. But I also think she 
was off with Ginny. 

Carol:
>And
> when she stands up to Harry and points out to him (rather sharply)
> that she can tell him whether he's being possessed or not, we see 
that
> she has learned from that experience, and though it's still painful 
to
> her, she is not afraid to talk about it when it can be useful to
> someone she considers a friend (even a "friend" like Harry who does
> not yet return her affection).

Hickengruendler:
Yes, I liked that scene, too. And I thought it to be believable, 
because that was the Ginny I saw at Flourish and Botts or at the Yule 
Ball scene. A Ginny, who is able to defend herself and speaks her 
opinion, if she is really angry or has a really good reason, too. But 
other than this, I had many problems with her characterisation: At 
the end of book 4, Ginny was basically the same character she was in 
CoS. And then Harry came back after one month (it might have seemed 
to Harry as a very long moth, but it was still only a month) and 
Ginny is suddenly all cool and outgoing and as funny as the twins? 
And later we are told she was always this way. Ginny steals 
broomsticks to train for Quidditch. We didn't saw this but were told 
by Hermione. Her brothers were told about this by Hermione, too, 
which leads to the fact, that I should believe, that Ginny was 
secretly training to fly for years, without Arthur, Molly, Percy, 
Fred, George and Ron noticing. For years. Regularly. Are the Weasleys 
all blind? Harry not noticing such things I have to accept, but all 
the other characters, too? And I wished somehow had made a comment, 
how strong and cool Ginny is, before book 5. Then, all we got was Ron 
telling us, that she normally never shuts up, and now, we should 
believe, that her bad-bogey hexes are famous. It's as if I would read 
about two different characters, who by accident have the same 
name.    

Hickengruendler




From nkafkafi at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 10 01:09:18 2004
From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 01:09:18 -0000
Subject: Something Small
In-Reply-To: <c2lo0j+pddh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2lpru+5vs2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92600

> > Lady McBeth wrote:
> > 
> > I'm not sure if this has been discussed, I searched the archives 
> and 
> > > didn't find anything, but I might have missed it . . .JKR 
stated 
> > that something very small would be a big part of book six.  I've 
> > heard a couple of interesting theories on what that small thing 
> > might be, but I've yet to hear anything convincing. 
> 
> 
> Potioncat:
> Does anyone have the quote on this?  I've heard it before, but the 
> wording was "something small in the Chamber of Secrets."  At the 
> time, I thought it was the actual chamber, not the book itself.  It 
> also seems that the poster was referring to the movie.
> 
> However, nothing I remember reading about it had any quotes.

Neri:
I'm also not familiar with the quote above and will thank anyone who 
post it. Perhaps, however, it is just a misquote of the quote below, 
which is from the CoS DVD interview with JKR and Steve Cloves, the 
screenwriter who adapted the script. You can find it in:

http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2003/0302-newsround-
mzimba.htm

This quote itself is somewhat disappointing. It is from Cloves, not 
JKR:

"Q: There are so many rich details in the books. Can you tell us how 
you decide what goes in and what stays out?
Steve:
I will sometimes ask Jo. I will say, you know, this detail, you just 
seem to have cast just a bit more light on this in this scene than 
the other details. Sometimes I'm wrong, but often she'll say "No, 
that is going to play." There's one thing in Chamber, actually, that 
Jo indicated will play later in the series."

Note that when Cloves says "in Chamber" he probably means in the 
whole DVD, not necessarily inside the actual chamber. They seem to 
call the movies "Stone", "Chamber" and "Prisoner" for short.

Neri





From Sedyn at web.de  Tue Mar  9 20:12:21 2004
From: Sedyn at web.de (sedyn2000)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 20:12:21 -0000
Subject: Imperio'd Member of the Order (WAS: Snape's position)
In-Reply-To: <c2l72q+bc3u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2l8f5+keem@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92601

Pippin wrote:
> snip
> >  I'm still sure  ESE!Lupin is the spy but much more obviously, it 
> > could be Snape.  We never did find out what happened to that 
> > missing invisibility cloak. Did Podmore have it when he was 
> > arrested or did it fall into Voldemort's hands?
> > 
> > If so, then there might have been an invisible Death Eater in the 
> > room when Sirius died. And of course it wouldn't be the first time 
> > that Snape used an invisibility cloak to sneak up on Harry.

Sue wrote:
> Where *is* Snape when all of these things happen to Harry?  The only 
> thing we know for sure is that he isn't there (or at least, we can't 
> see him) we only have Snape's word for his where abouts at the time 
> of the MoM at least.  I think it is just as likely that lovely Bella 
> did send the curse that killed Sirius, but the image of Snape in an 
> invisibility cloak, zapping him through the vail is appealing.  

But there are two members of the Order who can see through 
invisibility cloaks: Dumbledore and Moody. I can't remember where 
Moody was of that time but Dumbledore was in the room and I don't 
think Snape would risk zapping Sirius right in front of Dumbledore 
even if he was distracted.

~Sedyn





From EvilNuff at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  9 21:39:33 2004
From: EvilNuff at yahoo.com (evilnuff)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 21:39:33 -0000
Subject: Harry's Future and Career
In-Reply-To: <c2l03c+gbil@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2ldil+oe25@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92602

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
> As far as Harry's future and career, I think when this is all over
> with, Harry is going to be sick and tired of fighting and struggle.
> For the first time in his life, he is going to want some peace and 
> quiet. 

I have always thought that Harry would become a pro Quiddich player 
myself.  There have been hints in this direction as well.  In CoS 
when thinking about what courses to sign up for he thinks that 
Quiddich is what he is best at, etc.

-Nuff





From EvilNuff at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  9 22:04:44 2004
From: EvilNuff at yahoo.com (evilnuff)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 22:04:44 -0000
Subject: numerology-ing the new middle names and a bit of SHIP
In-Reply-To: <c2g2no+rtg6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2lf1s+korc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92603

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Anne" <anne_conda at w...> wrote:
> 1 = A, J, S
> 2 = B, K, T
> 3 = C, L, U
> 4 = D, M, V
> 5 = E, N, W
> 6 = F, O, X
> 7 = G, P, Y
> 8 = H, Q, Z
> 9 = I, R                     
> 
.every letter in a name is assigned to a number. You will get the 
> final number by addition of each names sum: forename + middle name 
+ 
> family name = number.
> 
> That made Ronald Weasley a number One,
> 
> Ginny Weasley a number Six and
> 
> Hermione Granger a number Four.


I am confused here, for Ron:
Ronald = 9+6+5+1+3+4 = 28
Weasley = 5+5+1+1+3+5+7 = 27
adding each name's sum = 55
Where do you get a number One from this?

-Nuff





From madlysarcastic at hotmail.com  Tue Mar  9 22:32:53 2004
From: madlysarcastic at hotmail.com (Ma-Dee)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 22:32:53 -0000
Subject: Prophecy Eavesdropper (and Greetings!)
Message-ID: <c2lgml+qee1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92604

As we all know the person who overheard the prophecy only heard the first part because "the eavesdropper was detected only a short way into the prophecy and
thrown from the building." (OP pg 743 UK ed.). Because this person was "detected" and "thown from the building" it narrows down the possibilities a bit as to who it was.

I'm suggesting Wormtail because if he were in rat-form at the time someone working at the HogsHead would probably want to get rid of a rodent in the building. Perhaps he unknowlingly (or knowingly) told this information to a DE or a spy for Voldemort before he had any idea that the prophecy could be about the child of the Potters or the Longbottoms. It could be that from that point on Wormtail was labelled an informant and that's how he came to be a spy for Voldemort himself.

I don't know if anyone else has mentioned this before so I apologize if I'm going over old ground, here. (btw, I did read the Posting Guidelines etc...this place as more nettiquette rules than Simpsons-L! lol)

But I'd like to hear anyone's thoughts on the subject.

As you might have gathered already I'm new here. I'm 18 and have been a HP fan since 2001 and I look forward to lots of interesting discussion here!

=)
Maddy





From madlysarcastic at hotmail.com  Tue Mar  9 22:42:48 2004
From: madlysarcastic at hotmail.com (Ma-Dee)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 22:42:48 -0000
Subject: Need Quote: Help with Sirius's Motorcyle - More
In-Reply-To: <c2lgm2+qikp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2lh98+llb8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92605

Julie wrote:

> IMO, "I'd best get this bike away" is much different from "I've ot 
> to return this to Sirius."  Getting it away may simply mean out of a 
> Muggle neighborhood.  Any other UK canon evidence that Hagrid 
> intended to return it to Sirius?

Berit wrote:

> > As you already know, the Bloomsbury edition does not mention Sirius's 
> > name twice; Hagrid only says "I'd best get this bike away" when he 
> > leaves Privet Drive. I consider the UK edition as more "canon"  than 
> > any other edition I must say :-)


My copy of PS is what I believe should be refered to as UK edition (but it may not be 
exactly the same since it was printed in Canada with Raincoast and Bloomsbury) and it 
definately says Hagrid intended to return it to Sirius.

Pg 17: "Yeah," said Hagrid in a very muffled voice. "I'll be takin' Sirius his bike back. 
G'night, Professor McGonagall - Professor Dumbledore, sir."

=)
Maddy





From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  9 23:33:41 2004
From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 15:33:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chat - shorter summer at Dursleys
In-Reply-To: <c2k59k+2cav@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040309233341.52558.qmail@web41807.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92606

Am I the only person who thinks the reason why he will not be at Privet Drive is because Petunia will be murdered.  If Vernon kicks him out, and he doesn't have Petunia's protection what would the purpose of him staying be?  Harry is protected while living at Privet Drive, not any other member of the family.  
 
~Melanie


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From tmar78 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 10 00:31:52 2004
From: tmar78 at yahoo.com (tyler maroney)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 16:31:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The Dudley Theory
In-Reply-To: <1078859392.9688.41952.m20@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040310003152.48974.qmail@web14102.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92607

Meri:
Could there be some overriding reason, other that DD's
howlers, that keeps the door open for Harry every
summer after Hoogwarts lets out? 

Tyler:
I've heard at least one interesting theory on this
subject that goes something like this:  Dudley is a
wizard.  DD knows this and he also knows of Petunia's
wizard-phobia.  So he struck a deal and promised not
to send Dudley a Hogwarts letter if she'd keep Harry.
Otherwise,  he'd spill the beans and tell Dudley what
he really is.  Its a bit of stretch mind you but it is
possible!

Tyler


=====
"It is our choices that show what we truly are,  far more than our abilities."

                                                                         - Albus Dumbledore

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From tmar78 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 10 00:18:31 2004
From: tmar78 at yahoo.com (tyler maroney)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 16:18:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Apparting into the Ministry...
In-Reply-To: <1078870535.41525.92316.m15@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040310001831.25974.qmail@web14103.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92608

Kashelkar:
I'm not still convinced why Voldemort didn't just
apparate near the 97th row of shelves in the Dept of
Mysteries, picked up the prophecy and Disapparate.

Tyler:  
Maybe apparation/disapparation is only possible in the
lobby.  After all,  if you could apparate into any
part of the MoM,  why don't all the workers just
apparate straight to their desks?

Tyler

=====
"It is our choices that show what we truly are,  far more than our abilities."

                                                                         - Albus Dumbledore

__________________________________
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Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster
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From belijako at online.no  Wed Mar 10 02:01:03 2004
From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 02:01:03 -0000
Subject: Ginny's development (was: SHIP: Harry and Hermione)
In-Reply-To: <c2lp00+6u7f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2lssv+1jon@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92609

Hickengruendler wrote:
I had many problems with her characterisation: At the end of book 4, 
Ginny was basically the same character she was in CoS. And then Harry 
came back after one month (it might have seemed to Harry as a very 
long month, but it was still only a month) and Ginny is suddenly all 
cool and outgoing and as funny as the twins? 

Berit replies:

I do see your point :-) Ginny's "change of personality" might seem a 
little sudden. On the other hand; there are subtle hints in GoF that 
Ginny is not any longer the timid and shy girl she was in CoS; maybe 
the problem is that we as readers have not been *noticing* the little 
hints; we have just seen her face going scarlet and thought that is 
all there is to this girl... I've just been rereading the start of 
GoF, where Harry comes to stay at the Burrow. Ginny, predictably, 
blushes when she sees Harry, but afterwards, when Harry asks 
what "Weasley's Wizard Wheezes" is, Ginny *laughs* along with Ron 
(Hermione didn't), clearly amused by her brothers' mischief. Not only 
is she able to laugh in Harry's presence, she goes on to tell him all 
about what Fred and George have been doing over the summer (and 
there's no mentioning of her blushing when she does)! Clearly, just 
this little passage (GoF p. 52 UK Edition) shows that Ginny has 
recovered enough over the years to be able to laugh and even talk in 
Harry's presence, even though she still turns red when he greets her 
and smiles at her :-) But, there's a progress! After all, she wasn't 
even able to talk in his presence in the two first HP books. In GoF 
she can, quite confidently as well!

Also, look at the way she converses with Harry and Ron prior to the 
Yule Ball. Not only is she able to talk to her brother and to Harry 
about dating without blushing(!), she shuts them up!:

"Just then Hermione climbed in throught he portrait hole.
'Why weren't you two at dinner?' she said, coming over to join them.
'Because - oh, shut up laughing, you two - because they've both been 
turned down by girls they asked to the ball!' said Ginny.
That shut Harry and Ron up." (GoF p. 348 UK Edition)

So I don't think I can agree with you that Ginny is basically the 
same character in GoF as she was in CoS... There has been a 
development prior to OoP.

Berit
http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html






From jferer at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 10 02:08:43 2004
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 02:08:43 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Harry and Hermione together per JKR chat?
In-Reply-To: <c2a8rt+66hm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2ltbb+lfqq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92610

Pippin:> Is there any indication that Hermione identifies with the way 
Harry thinks or hears his voice inside when she's got a difficult 
decision to make, or that he cares what *she* needs? I think 
Harry would be happier in a more equal relationship, myself."

Hermione's life has been completely transformed by knowing Harry.  She
could have easily ended up another Percy, a Ravenclaw prig. Not now,
and nevermore; Hermione is a true Gryffindor heroine.  And she knows
it; as early as PS/SS she knew it.

Harry has been the one who needed to stay in one piece most of the
time, and he hasn't thought about her needs much; but he's starting to
identify with her thoughts and realize how much she means to him; in
the MoM battle, for example, when she's wounded.

But how could a partnership be more equal than theirs?  She prepares
him for his challenges, curbs his excesses (with varying degrees of
success) and knows just what he needs.    Harry owes Hermione a lot.

Harry and Hermione are converging.




From kcawte at ntlworld.com  Wed Mar 10 10:15:29 2004
From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 02:15:29 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: numerology-ing the new middle names and a bit of SHIP
References: <c2lf1s+korc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c40688$9d0c6290$bcde6251@kathryn>

No: HPFGUIDX 92611


-Nuff


I am confused here, for Ron:
Ronald = 9+6+5+1+3+4 = 28
Weasley = 5+5+1+1+3+5+7 = 27
adding each name's sum = 55
Where do you get a number One from this?

K

You need to end up with a single digit - so you add the two 5's giving you
10 and then the 1 and the 0 to give you a final answer of 1

K





From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net  Wed Mar 10 02:18:22 2004
From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 20:18:22 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: numerology-ing the new middle names and a bit of SHIP
References: <c2lf1s+korc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001b01c40645$f6709560$05030f04@dslverizon.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 92612

{Nuff}

I am confused here, for Ron:
Ronald = 9+6+5+1+3+4 = 28
Weasley = 5+5+1+1+3+5+7 = 27
adding each name's sum = 55
Where do you get a number One from this?

{Anne}

There's one more step after that one in Numerology...basically, you keep
adding until you come up with a one digit number, unless it's a prime such
as 11 or 21, which have thier own special meanings...(and gets into more
complicated analysis...).

So...

Ron= 28. Add 2+8= 10....then 1+0 to equal 1
Weasley= 27....2+7=...9

Now, add 9+1= 10

1+0 again...

And you get '1'


Usually, a more complete analysis is done by looking at  the first name,
last name and middle names seperately, then adding them together for another
viewpoint, so most people have at least 3 numbers to look at if you want to
do a complete analysis....





From jferer at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 10 02:23:12 2004
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 02:23:12 -0000
Subject: Will Hogwarts be Attacked?
In-Reply-To: <008701c40624$eea693a0$9701a8c0@odyssey.local>
Message-ID: <c2lu6g+v9a6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92613

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sarah" <tommy_m_riddle at y...> wrote:
> Robert:
> > This suggests that JKR is thinking of having LV attack
> > Hogwarts this time.  Ooh, that would be fun.
> 
> Sarah:
> I'm almost certain he will.  I think he'll succeed, too.  He'll put
Lucius
> Malfoy in charge, so that the elves will have a reason to take their
hats.

That attack in inevitable, IMO.  The attempt to undermine Hogwarts
from within has failed; Voldemort has lost his agent of influence,
Lucius Malfoy, the useful idiots of the Ministry have been
neutralized, and Albus Dumbledore is now the undisputed war leader of
the wizard world, impervious to the feckless and soon to be out on his
ear Fudge.

So how can Voldemort, even weakened as he is, allow his two main
enemies, Harry and DD, to gather strength and launch attacks on the
Death Eaters from a perfectly secure base?  He can't.  If he doesn't
he's just a fugitive, especially without a secure base of his own.

LV's got to attack soon. He's running out of options.

Jim Ferer




From MadameSSnape at aol.com  Wed Mar 10 02:24:40 2004
From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 21:24:40 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: numerology-ing the new middle names and a bit of SHIP
Message-ID: <d7.54e78ae.2d7fd668@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92614

In a message dated 3/9/2004 8:59:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
EvilNuff at yahoo.com writes:
I am confused here, for Ron:
Ronald = 9+6+5+1+3+4 = 28
Weasley = 5+5+1+1+3+5+7 = 27
adding each name's sum = 55
Where do you get a number One from this?
===========
Sherrie here:

You stopped short a step - you must add 5+5=10=1+0=1.

Actually, adding the middle name, it's

9+6+5+1+3+4+2+9+3+9+3+1+5+5+1+1+3+5+7 = 82 = 8+2 = 10 = 1+0 = 1

Same outcome, but with the full name.

In numerology, one reduces all totals to single digits, by continuing to add 
digits together.  The only exceptions are totals of 11, 22, or 33, which are 
referred to as Master numbers.

(Hmmm....does Severus have a middle name, I wonder?   Without one, he, too, 
is a 1...)

Sherrie
(who started numerology before Nixon was a crook... <g>)
"Unless history lives in our present, it has no future." 
PRESERVE OUR CIVIL WAR BATTLEFIELDS!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From stevejjen at earthlink.net  Wed Mar 10 02:28:08 2004
From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 02:28:08 -0000
Subject: On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
In-Reply-To: <c2l908+sppl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2lufo+m8qd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92615

> > Jen: Personally, I'm hoping the Dursley's decision to take Harry 
in 
> > will be a little less fear and loathing and a little more 
> > manipulation and mayhem. "What's in it for us?" Vernon asked, 
> > quietly. 
 
> Kneasy:
> A reasonable (if mercenary) thought. One small snag - who do  they
> bicker with and  how?
> 
> So far as we know no-one from the WW has met them face to face
> and the Dursleys  don't seem to have a method of contacting DD
> and his merry crew. That  makes negotiations a bit problematical.


Jen: Yes, that IS a problem. Those magical people are so darn 
annoying in their elitism. I guess that leaves us with the "take 
him....or else" scenario, even though it doesn't satisfy my 
mercenary wish. Pity.

Kneasy: 
> I suppose they could suspend Harry over a barbeque in the back 
garden
> and wait for somebody to come galloping to the rescue, but the 
little
> toe-rag would probably  use his own in-built skin-saver to escape.
> 
> DD reads  the Muggle newspapers, so they could always put in a
> suitably noticeable ad: "Found near Godrics Hollow - a  
sacrificial lamb.
> Open to offers. Box XYZ." That'd make him shift. Make the DEs perk
> their ears up too.

Jen: Ah, yes, Harry is such a killjoy in that respect. How about the 
possibility of kidnapping Mrs. Figg and/or her cats until 
negotiations start? I'm convinced Petunia knows Mrs. Figg is in on 
the gig and that's why she allows Harry to stay with her. Why else 
would she leave him with a neighbor, when he could potentially 
destroy the house and leave the Dursleys ostracized for good? 

> Kneasy:
> Good oh. Vernon on a poster looking like a pink, dyspeptic walrus, 
> sporting a T-shirt that reads "Muggles are Magic" - an absolute 
must is
> that on his head is the traditional knotted hankerchief;  that 
plus the 
> obligatory baggy ex-army shorts, knee length socks and orthopaedic 
> sandals produces a vision of suburban hom. sap. in all it's 
splendour.

Jen: OK, OK, enough! Now you're just cracking me up :). I think even 
Arthur would object to Vernon if he had to spend too much time 
carting him around to magical functions as the token Muggle. I 
definitely think he needs *white* knee length socks with black 
loafers to complete the picture, though. 







From siskiou at msn.com  Wed Mar 10 03:02:02 2004
From: siskiou at msn.com (Susanne)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 19:02:02 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Harry and Hermione together per JKR chat?
In-Reply-To: <c2ltbb+lfqq@eGroups.com>
References: <c2a8rt+66hm@eGroups.com> <c2ltbb+lfqq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <674490333.20040309190202@msn.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92616



Hi,

Tuesday, March 9, 2004, 6:08:43 PM, Jim wrote:

> Hermione's life has been completely transformed by knowing Harry.  She
> could have easily ended up another Percy, a Ravenclaw prig. Not now,
> and nevermore; Hermione is a true Gryffindor heroine.

Percy, a Ravenclaw?
And Hermione's changes are all due to Harry's influence
alone? I tend to think Ron something to do with it, too.
And maybe being a witch, and entering the WW was part of the
transformation, too.

After all, Hermione didn't pick Griffindor, because Harry
was sure to be in that house, but because *she* thought it
was the "best" house.

> But how could a partnership be more equal than theirs?  She prepares
> him for his challenges, curbs his excesses (with varying degrees of
> success) and knows just what he needs.    Harry owes Hermione a lot.

He does, but where does the equality lie?

What does Harry do to fulfill Hermione's needs, besides
being a "quest" for her?
Like Neville, the house elves...
Yes, he thinks of her, but usually it's because he is trying
to avoid some reaction by her. How good can that be in the
long run?
Hermione doesn't do this, and comes right out with anything
she deems needs saying to Harry, or anyone else.

Harry tends to take the way out by avoiding the situation
altogether, not necessarily for Hermione's good, but more
often for his own good.

Hermione is a lot less helpful to Ron, because he needs a
lot less help.

And I do think the impression that Harry and Hermione are a
lot closer than Ron and Hermione, comes from the POV.

We know a lot more about Harry's feelings toward Hermione
(and everyone else), because we are in his head almost all
the time.
If we had the same benefit for Ron or Hermione, we'd
probably think their relationships were richer, too.

It helps to hear about peoples' feelings first hand, and not
try and figure it out through what Harry sees and hears.

Harry and Hermione have a wonderful friendship, but I don't
think it's superior to Ron and Hermione's friendship, nor
Harry and Ron's.

They all have different things to give, so it's not a tit
for tat thing, and interactions are different, because of
personalities.

-- 
Best regards,
 Susanne                           mailto:siskiou at msn.com

Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/





From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 10 03:02:50 2004
From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 03:02:50 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?FILK:_I=92ll_Be_Teaching_Dark_Arts_Defense?=
Message-ID: <c2m0gq+nrh4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92617

I was listening to the Mikado on the way home from work tonight, and 
I was suddenly struck by how Katisha's attempts to upstage the Mikado 
in Act II were very like Umbridge's opening gambits as DADA professor 
against Dumbledore
.

I'll Be Teaching Dark Arts Defense (OOP, Chap. 11)

To the tune of From Every Kind of Man, from Gilbert and Sullivan's 
The Mikado

Text and MIDI at:

http://math.boisestate.edu/gas/mikado/webopera/song16.html

Dedicated to JuHu

THE SCENE: The Great Hall. DUMBLEDORE tries to start the term off 
right, but meets with some interference from the new Dark Arts 
Defense Professor


DUMBLEDORE:
Our Hat's complete its Sort
So let our feast now commence!
I'm the Headmaster of Hogwarts


UMBRIDGE (interrupting):

.And I'll be teaching Dark Arts Defense!
This book by Wilbert
Will bore you inert
When I'm teaching Dark Arts Defense!

DUMBLEDORE:
To stroll in the Forbidden
Forest we'll call an offense


UMBRIDGE (interrupting):

Though that's nothing at all, but if
You insult me teaching Dark Arts Defense
De ? crees?
>From me, teaching Dark Arts Defense

ALL:
De ? crees?
When she's teaching Dark Arts Defense

DUMBLEDORE:
Our caretaker has asked you all 
(Four hundred sixty-second)
Wave not your wands in our halls
.

UMBRIDGE (interrupting):

For I'll be teaching Dark Arts Defense 
My foes I'll condemn
With my sweet little "HEM",
As I'm teaching Dark Arts Defense!

DUMBLEDORE:
And Quidditch tryouts occur
In two or three evenings hence
.

UMBRIDGE (interrupting):

.If dutifully you defer
To me teaching Potter Dark Arts Defense!
Quills grill
When I'm teaching Dark Arts Defense!

ALL:
Quills grill
When she's teaching Dark Arts Defense!

   -	CMC

HARRY POTTER FILKS 
http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm
(have you seen our 3/7/04 update?)





From nkafkafi at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 10 03:10:07 2004
From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 03:10:07 -0000
Subject: Harry's Future and Career
In-Reply-To: <c2ldil+oe25@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2m0uf+si2m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92618

> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
> > As far as Harry's future and career, I think when this is all over
> > with, Harry is going to be sick and tired of fighting and 
struggle.
> > For the first time in his life, he is going to want some peace 
and 
> > quiet.

 
> Nuff:
> I have always thought that Harry would become a pro Quiddich player 
> myself.  There have been hints in this direction as well.  In CoS 
> when thinking about what courses to sign up for he thinks that 
> Quiddich is what he is best at, etc.
> 

Neri:
>From some personal acquaintance and some hearsay about people who 
were in special army units and went through *a lot* for several 
years, I gather many of them become addicted to the adrenalin rash. 
As their exposure to danger is more frequent and for longer periods, 
the chances of getting adrenalin addicted seem to get higher, not 
lower. These people, if they retire from the army, go jungle 
backpacking, cliff climbing, driving the fastest sport motorcycles, 
joining police SWAT units. Some of them become sort of professional 
heroes. They simply can't rest as long as there are still some bad 
people out there. Moody strikes me as the type, after 30 or 40 years 
and minus some body parts. So I won't be surprised at all if Harry 
becomes an auror even after (if at all) he'll vanquish LV. There will 
still be enough evil around to fight. I just hope he won't end up 
lonely and paranoid as Moody.

Neri




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Wed Mar 10 03:27:38 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 03:27:38 -0000
Subject: The Apostle!Marauders...
In-Reply-To: <c2lnrs+bubc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2m1va+fe28@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92619

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Berit Jakobsen" 
<belijako at o...> wrote:
> Since Rowling is a Christian by faith herself, this post might not 
be 
> too long a shot... has anyone else noticed that the Marauders have 
a 
> lot in common with four of the most known/prominent of the 
disciples 
> of Jesus?
> 
>snip<
> 
> I have no idea whether the likeness between the Marauders and the 
> four most known disciples, and the apostle Paul and Snape are 
> intentional on Rowling's part; I seriously doubt it. But it 
doesn't 
> matter: I was having fun with this post :-)
> 


Potioncat:
You brought up some interesting ideas and they could be used in a 
church discussion group.  Lots of churches in the U.S. are adapting 
the Harry Potter story for that use.  The real danger is going too 
far with the comparisons. 

On the other hand, I'm sure we could compare this group to King 
Arthur and the Round Table as well. (I keep thinking that I first 
saw Richard Harris as King Arthur and last as "Merlin")

Does all this count as OT?
Potioncat






From jmmears at comcast.net  Wed Mar 10 03:34:56 2004
From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 03:34:56 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Harry and Hermione together per JKR chat?
In-Reply-To: <c2ltbb+lfqq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2m2d0+mag2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92620

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" <jferer at y...> 
wrote:
> Pippin:> Is there any indication that Hermione identifies with the 
way 
> Harry thinks or hears his voice inside when she's got a difficult 
> decision to make, or that he cares what *she* needs? I think 
> Harry would be happier in a more equal relationship, myself."


Jim replied:

> Hermione's life has been completely transformed by knowing Harry.  
She
> could have easily ended up another Percy, a Ravenclaw prig. 


I absolutely agree that PS/SS Hermione had the potential to become 
another Percy, particularly in terms of being unable to relate to 
her peer-group and her intense need for approval from authority 
figures.  Where I'm afraid I disagree is that simply knowing Harry 
has been the life-transforming event that saved her from ending up a 
Ravenclaw prig.  I don't think that Harry and Hermione would have 
actually had a friendship without Ron's involvement, and that like 
Harry, spending time with the entire Weasley family (as well as her 
adventures with both Harry and Ron) has been the catalyst for her 
growth as a more well-rounded human being.



> 
> Harry has been the one who needed to stay in one piece most of the
> time, and he hasn't thought about her needs much; but he's 
starting to
> identify with her thoughts and realize how much she means to him; 
in
> the MoM battle, for example, when she's wounded.


Well, of course he cares greatly when he thinks she may have been 
killed at the ministry but I don't think he's beginning to "identify 
with her thoughts" in the sense that he's begun to think the way she 
does... or have I misunderstood your point here?


Jim wrote:

> But how could a partnership be more equal than theirs?  She 
prepares
> him for his challenges, curbs his excesses (with varying degrees of
> success) and knows just what he needs.  

  

I'm afraid I have to agree with Pippin on her point that Harry and 
Hermione have a fundamentally unequal relationship, based on the 
fact that he very often avoids engaging with her when he expects her 
to go into her nagging mode.  Actually, I think that while they have 
a very good friendship, Hermione often doesn't really "get" what 
Harry needs emotionally.  A couple of examples from GoF come to 
mind.  When he's devistated over his falling out with Ron, Hermione 
drags him off to the library which does nothing but frustrate him 
and causes him to miss Ron even more.  Earlier at the Burrow when he 
tells Ron and Hermione about his scar hurting and Trelawney's 
prediction, Hermione tells Ron off for suggesting that they play 
some Quiddtich as opposed to her idea that what Harry should do is 
rest.  Which suggestion works best for Harry?
 

Jim continued:

> Harry and Hermione are converging.

Converging into what?  My impression from OoP is that Harry has 
moved beyond the cozy circle of the trio and while Ron & Hermione 
are still his best friends, by the end of the book he has moved a 
bit farther away from them emotionally.

Jo S.






From steve at hp-lexicon.org  Wed Mar 10 04:04:48 2004
From: steve at hp-lexicon.org (hp_lexicon)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 04:04:48 -0000
Subject: The Strange Case of the Altered Spelling
Message-ID: <c2m450+11aj2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92621

I was working on the Lexicon this evening, adding some of the 
tidbits of information from the World Book Day chat, when I realized 
something that surprised me...the spelling of Trelawney's first name 
isn't consistent. Am I correct in thinking that it's spelled 
differently in the US editions than it is in the UK ones? My US 
books say Sibyll, while someone emailed me that it's spelled Sybill 
in the UK version. Can anyone verify this for me? I'd like to add a 
note to the page about Trelawney as well as a note on 
the "Differences" page, but I don't own the UK versions to be able 
to check.

Thanks
Steve
The Lexicon




From madlysarcastic at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 10 02:06:42 2004
From: madlysarcastic at hotmail.com (Ma-Dee)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 02:06:42 -0000
Subject: The Dudley Theory
In-Reply-To: <20040310003152.48974.qmail@web14102.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c2lt7i+as0f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92622

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, tyler maroney <tmar78 at y...> wrote:
> Meri:
> Could there be some overriding reason, other that DD's
> howlers, that keeps the door open for Harry every
> summer after Hoogwarts lets out? 
> 
> Tyler:
> I've heard at least one interesting theory on this
> subject that goes something like this:  Dudley is a
> wizard.  DD knows this and he also knows of Petunia's
> wizard-phobia.  So he struck a deal and promised not
> to send Dudley a Hogwarts letter if she'd keep Harry.
> Otherwise,  he'd spill the beans and tell Dudley what
> he really is.  Its a bit of stretch mind you but it is
> possible!
> 
> Tyler


That is certainly interesting! In another yahoo HP group someone suggested that Dudley 
would be the one to learn magic "late in life." (I believe that was something JKR said with 
regards the the 6th book, although I can't cite my sources. All I know is that it was said 
before the most recent chat.)

It could possibly explain why Petunia and Vernon seem so eager to spoil him rotten and to 
not let him get angry. It seems as though when a wizard or witch gets angry they can 
sometimes let off a bit of magic by accident, like Harry has done a few times.

=)
Maddy





From bumbledor at charter.net  Wed Mar 10 02:54:42 2004
From: bumbledor at charter.net (Bumbledor)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 21:54:42 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chat - shorter summer at Dursleys
References: <20040309233341.52558.qmail@web41807.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001501c4064b$0afbe250$6401a8c0@mac>

No: HPFGUIDX 92623

From: "Miss Melanie" <ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com>

Am I the only person who thinks the reason why he will not be at Privet
Drive is because Petunia will be murdered.  If Vernon kicks him out, and he
doesn't have Petunia's protection what would the purpose of him staying be?
Harry is protected while living at Privet Drive, not any other member of the
family.



I think Harry is protecting them as well. The protection goes both ways. By
accepting Harry into her home, Petunia extends that protection to her family
as well. So its benificial for her to take him into her home.

"Bumbledor"






From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 10 03:31:04 2004
From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (fauntine_80)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 03:31:04 -0000
Subject: The Dudley Theory
In-Reply-To: <20040310003152.48974.qmail@web14102.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c2m25o+u5ke@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92624

> Tyler:
> I've heard at least one interesting theory on this
> subject that goes something like this:  Dudley is a
> wizard.    ...Its a bit of stretch mind you but it is
> possible!


That's really a creative and complicated plot twist, but I am 
disinclined to believe it.

#1. Usually wizard children show some sort of their "wizardness" 
early on.  i.e.Harry talking to snakes and hair growing back, 
Neville bouncing out the window, etc.
Dudley has shown NO signs of it. 

#2.  The Dursleys have tried to squelch any possible "wizardness" 
from Harry, but were UNABLE to do so. Dudley was always treaded well 
for being the "normal" boy. And, again, he never showed any sign 
of "wizarness"

#3. What about the other schools?  Even if Dumbledore made an 
agreement not to give Dudley a letter, would the other schools 
possibly invite him to attend?

#4. If Dudley was a wizard, and found out, what would happen?  He 
has brainwashed to hate anything "abnormal."  He wouldn't be able to 
use his magic because he never attended wizarding school. So, what 
use would it be for him to be a wizard, other than irony?  If he was 
allowed to become a wizard, would he go to the dark side?

I don't know.  I guess you are right, though... anything IS possible 
in the WW.

~Mo







From dianism at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 10 03:48:22 2004
From: dianism at yahoo.com (Diana Martinez)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 19:48:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] numerology-ing the new middle names and a bit of SHIP
In-Reply-To: <c2g2no+rtg6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040310034822.36376.qmail@web14206.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92625

Anne wrote:
 
> Before I move on with Seven I want to declare that I
> don't know 
> whether Harrys full name IS Harry Potter or whether
> it is Harry JAMES 
> Potter. I always felt that the last version was
> something of a 
> extensively spread rumour. Surely the LOONs will
> help me out there.
> 


Now me (Diana):

"Q: Does Harry have a middle name? 
J.K: Yep, James after his dad."

From: "Transcript of J.K. Rowlings live interview on
Scholastic.com, October 16, 2000."
http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript2.htm



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster
http://search.yahoo.com




From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Wed Mar 10 04:28:41 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 04:28:41 -0000
Subject: Ginny's development (was: SHIP: Harry and Hermione)
In-Reply-To: <c2lp00+6u7f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2m5hp+j3p3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92626

snip
> other than this, I had many problems with her characterisation: At 
> the end of book 4, Ginny was basically the same character she was 
in 
> CoS. And then Harry came back after one month (it might have seemed 
> to Harry as a very long moth, but it was still only a month) and 
> Ginny is suddenly all cool and outgoing and as funny as the twins? 
> And later we are told she was always this way. Ginny steals 
> broomsticks to train for Quidditch. We didn't saw this but were 
told 
> by Hermione. Her brothers were told about this by Hermione, too, 
> which leads to the fact, that I should believe, that Ginny was 
> secretly training to fly for years, without Arthur, Molly, Percy, 
> Fred, George and Ron noticing. For years. Regularly. Are the 
Weasleys 
> all blind? Harry not noticing such things I have to accept, but all 
> the other characters, too? And I wished somehow had made a comment, 
> how strong and cool Ginny is, before book 5. Then, all we got was 
Ron 
> telling us, that she normally never shuts up, and now, we should 
> believe, that her bad-bogey hexes are famous. It's as if I would 
read 
> about two different characters, who by accident have the same 
> name.    
> 
> Hickengruendler

Sue here:

I think it is jumping to conclusions to assume Mr. and Mrs. Weasley, 
Charlie or Bill had no knowledge of the flying Ginny.  I can imagine 
Molly in the yard hollering up over  her head, "No dear, you have fly 
a little lower to get a good shot on goal!  Here comes the bludger, 
watch for it..."etc.  Ginny was home for a year while the middle four 
were at school and we have no idea what she did in her spare time.  
learning to fly and play Quidditch would have been a good use of it. 
As far as sneaking the brooms, why not?  I have sisters, we just had 
a good laugh about all of the times we borrowed things from one 
another and took them out of the house by stealth.  It's a 
sibling "thing". 

My thought at the beginning of OotP about Ginny was oh goody, our 
little girl is growing up, I bet she has a boyfriend.  Nothing like a 
new beau to give a girl more confidence around an old crush.

Obviously I bought the change hook, line and sinker.  Personally, I 
had a whole lot more trouble adjusting to the new Harry.

Sue




From editor at texas.net  Wed Mar 10 04:29:58 2004
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 22:29:58 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Strange Case of the Altered Spelling
References: <c2m450+11aj2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <003701c40658$59b158a0$d658aacf@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 92627

Lexicon Steve asketh:

> I was working on the Lexicon this evening, adding some of the
> tidbits of information from the World Book Day chat, when I realized >
something that surprised me...the spelling of Trelawney's first name
> isn't consistent. Am I correct in thinking that it's spelled
> differently in the US editions than it is in the UK ones? My US
> books say Sibyll, while someone emailed me that it's spelled Sybill
> in the UK version. Can anyone verify this for me? I'd like to add a
> note to the page about Trelawney as well as a note on
> the "Differences" page, but I don't own the UK versions to be able
> to check.

You appear to be correct. As you are already a LOON, I shall think of some
grand-master grade of the appellation just for you.

Page 228, PoA, US--"Sibyll, this is a pleasant surprise!" said Dumbledore...
and the other spellings conform in the US edition

Page 169, PoA, Canadian (and thus UK as well, I believe)--'Sybill, this is a
pleasant surprise!' said Dumbledore...
and the subsequent spellings in this edition conform to *that* spelling.

How odd.

~Amandageist, founding LOON and long-ago Lexicon contributor, who stands in
awe of Steve




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 10 05:51:08 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 05:51:08 -0000
Subject: On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
In-Reply-To: <c2iog4+tgqs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2macc+ph5h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92628

Geoff wrote: 
> <huge snip>If Vernon and Petunia had had a little more thought, if
Vernon's 
> actions had been less of a high class pachyderm and more of an 
> understanding person, he might have treated Harry on more of an equal 
> footing with Dudley. As a result we would have had a Harry who was 
> not a waif and stray and Dudley would not have developed into a 
> tantrum-throwing, bullying "pig in a wig". Mark you, we might not 
> have had such an interesting series of books......   :-) <big snip>


I don't think Harry ever would have been on an equal footing with
Dudley (fortunately for him) because Dudley was already spoiled as a
sixteen-month-old baby (the age he was when Harry was placed on the
doorstep): "Little Tyke" threw food and tantrums in his high chair as
vernon left for work, and McGonagall commented that she had seen him
kicking his mother and screaming for sweets. So the spoiling had
nothing to do with Harry, only a confused idea of what constitutes a
loving parent on the adult Dursleys' part. I can find the relevant
quotes if you like: They're in SS/PS chapter one.

BTW, my post on Vernon seems to have been lost or overlooked. I
suggested some time back that his treatment of Harry stems from fear
of the unknown or misunderstood WW, the same fear of the abnormal or
uncanny that led to witch-burning in the middle ages and witch hanging
in Salem in 1692. I referred to him as Salazar Slytherin in reverse
(only not so powerful). He denies the existence of magic even when it
happens right in front of him, and when he can't deny it, he tries to
fight it because he sees it as a danger to himself and his family. I'm
not excusing Vernon, but I think it's entirely possible to understand him.

Carol




From capehoneysuckle at earthlink.net  Wed Mar 10 05:53:29 2004
From: capehoneysuckle at earthlink.net (capehoneysuckle)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 05:53:29 -0000
Subject: The Strange Case of the Altered Spelling
In-Reply-To: <003701c40658$59b158a0$d658aacf@texas.net>
Message-ID: <c2magp+ls8e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92629


> Lexicon Steve asketh:
> 
> Am I correct in thinking that it's spelled
> > differently in the US editions than it is in the UK ones? My US
> > books say Sibyll, while someone emailed me that it's spelled Sybill
> > in the UK version. Can anyone verify this for me? I'd like to add a
> > note to the page about Trelawney as well as a note on
> > the "Differences" page, but I don't own the UK versions to be able
> > to check.
> 
> Amanda Geist answereth:
> You appear to be correct.
> 
> Page 228, PoA, US--"Sibyll, this is a pleasant surprise!" said
Dumbledore...
> and the other spellings conform in the US edition
> 
> Page 169, PoA, Canadian (and thus UK as well, I believe)--'Sybill,
this is a
> pleasant surprise!' said Dumbledore...
> and the subsequent spellings in this edition conform to *that* spelling.
> 
Honey(just to be complete):
The Bloomsbury (UK) version is identical to the Canadian. Paperback
page 169 "Sybill, this is a pleasant surprise!" said Dumbledore...
Sorry for the short post.




From snapesmate at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 10 05:53:28 2004
From: snapesmate at hotmail.com (snapesmate)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 05:53:28 -0000
Subject: The Strange Case of the Altered Spelling
In-Reply-To: <c2m450+11aj2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2mago+kso6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92630

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hp_lexicon" <steve at h...> wrote:
> <snip> Am I correct in thinking that it's spelled 
> differently in the US editions than it is in the UK ones? My US 
> books say Sibyll, while someone emailed me that it's spelled Sybill 
> in the UK version. Can anyone verify this for me? <snip>> 
> Thanks
> Steve
> The Lexicon

Yes your thinking is correct!  Although, I have known several 
American Sybills (yes here in the USA) and they ALL spelled their 
name Sybill or Cybil.  I had never seen the named spelled with an "i" 
first and the "y" second before reading PoA.  
Lynnette, who thinks Snape IS a good guy, even if he is NOT a nice 
guy!




From sarcasticmuppet at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 10 06:16:08 2004
From: sarcasticmuppet at yahoo.com (sarcasticmuppet)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 06:16:08 -0000
Subject: The Dudley Theory
In-Reply-To: <c2m25o+u5ke@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2mbr8+s3lv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92631

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fauntine_80" 
<fauntine_80 at y...> wrote:
> > Tyler:
> > I've heard at least one interesting theory on this
> > subject that goes something like this:  Dudley is a
> > wizard.    ...Its a bit of stretch mind you but it is
> > possible!

(SM) I'm responding to Mo's second rebuttal of this theory:

> #2.  The Dursleys have tried to squelch any possible "wizardness" 
> from Harry, but were UNABLE to do so. Dudley was always treaded 
well 
> for being the "normal" boy. And, again, he never showed any sign 
> of "wizarness"


I've always been of the opinion that the Dursleys were completely 
unable to "squelch out" Harry's magic because they treated him so 
rottenly.  If they hadn't treated him like the red (black)-headed 
stepchild that he was, Harry would have grown up just like Dudley:  
spoiled, overweight, bullying, and completely afraid of anything to 
do with the WW.  It is because of the Dursley abuse that we have this 
wonderful little series in our hands.

That said, looking at how Dudley was raised completely opposite of 
Harry, it's easy to see how Dudley could have been the successful 
squelch-ee.

Just my humble opinion.  Please disagree with me.

--sarcasticmuppet




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 10 06:27:44 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 06:27:44 -0000
Subject: JKR chat--Snape the coward or the one left forever?
In-Reply-To: <c2j261+h8qs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2mch0+4kg8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92632

Carol wrote:
As I've said, I think his position as seeming spy for Voldemort and
real spy for Dumbledore is now in great danger of being exposed
because both LV and Malfoy will (rightly) suspect him of having 
acted for the Order instead of for them in the MoM affair. 
 
Susan:
Carol, I'm intrigued as to why you believe Snape's now in great 
danger of being exposed because of the MoM affair. Do you think 
Voldy & Lucius believe DD only came because Snape must have told him 
what was happening?  
<snip> 



Yes. Exactly. Maybe I'm assuming, as usual, but Kreacher probably knew
that Snape had contacted the Order members and he could well have
reported it to Malfoy or Narcissa. Even if Kreacher didn't talk, there
was no one else at Hogwarts who could have told Dumbledore and the
Order to go to the MoM to rescue Harry. (It couldn't have been
McGonagall, who was in St. Mungo's, and besides, she knew less than
Snape about LV's plans.)

I think Snape's cover is finally blown, but with luck, he'll still be
safe at Hogwarts for awhile. Certainly, his role as spy is disrupted
because Malfoy (whom I see as his contact) is in Azkaban, and I think
Malfoy will probably figure out that Snape is partly responsible for
putting him there. Dumbledore wasn't at Hogwarts and couldn't have
known that Harry was heading for the MoM unless someone told him, ans
who else could it be besides Snape? To answer the person who asked why
Snape isn't dead, IMO lies and occlumency and general cleverness have
protected him so far. But I don't see how even Snape can wiggle out of
this clear instance of being on the side of the Order. Can you think
of a lie that could excuse him or someone else he could blame without
betraying the Order? Could he somehow pin it on the conveniently dead
Sirius? I don't think so.

So, as I see it, Snape is in almost the same position now as Sirius
was in Grimmauld Place: He can't safely leave because there are still
DEs at large, notably Bellatrix, who would happily kill him now that
he's shown himself to be "the one who . . . has left us forever."
Fortunately for Snape, he still has his duties as teacher, head of
Slytherin, and Harry watcher to keep him occupied. My question is how
much Draco will know or suspect in Book 6. If Draco thinks (knows)
that Snape is no friend of his father's, what will happen to Snape's
authority at Hogwarts? Maybe if Draco hates him, Harry will start to
like him? (Well, maybe not.)

I would be a lot more worried about Snape if I didn't know two things:
he's a very cunning survivor and JKR has said he'll be in Book Seven.
I'll save my real anxiety about him till then!

Carol




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 10 06:38:40 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 06:38:40 -0000
Subject: Snape and the Mom (Was: JKR chat--Snape the coward or the one left forever?
In-Reply-To: <c2j261+h8qs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2md5g+qnrl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92633

Post script to Siriusly Snapey Susan re Snape and the MoM:

One more thing: I don't think Snape needed to know exactly what was
happening at the MoM to alert Dumbledore. All he needed was what he
knew from the occlumency plus what Harry told him about Padfoot being
in trouble to put two and two together, find out that Sirius was safe
in Grimmauld Place, and send the other Order members to the MoM. There
was no need for him to be in on the final plan to figure out what to do.

Nevertheless, LV and Malfoy would know that he knew about the overall
plan to steal the prophecy and they would figure that only he would
guess where Harry was going and alert Dumbledore.

So between these two posts, have I answered all your questions? Not
that I necessarily expect you to agree with me, just to understand
where I'm coming from. I don't have all the answers, either, believe me.

Carol 




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 10 07:06:28 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 07:06:28 -0000
Subject: JKR chat--Snape the coward or the one left forever?
In-Reply-To: <c2ji2k+pnfq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2mepk+kdfi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92634

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "suehpfan" <stanleys at s...> wrote:
> Big snip of two posts 
> Carol wrote:
>  (Besides, it's more interesting to have him (Snape) put two
> > and two together and try to prevent both Sirius and Harry from going
> > to the MoM. If he'd known all about the MoM plot, it would have
> > spoiled the story.)
> > 
> > Carol
> 
> Unless of course, Snape was supposed to make sure Harry and Co. got 
> there (to the MoM) and that Malfoy had time to get the orb from Harry 
> before the Order folks showed up.  As far as Sirius is concerned LV 
> and Malfoy had reasons for wanting to keep Sirius alive and in 
> Grimauld Place.  <snip>
> Just my "Snape could be a very bad boy" comment for the night.
> Sue


If Snape were evil, wouldn't he simply have left Harry to the DEs
without contacting the Order AND Dumbledore? Dumbledore would have no
way of knowing that Snape knew anything about Harry's disappearance.
All he would have had to do is to pretend not to understand Harry (as
he did) and then do *nothing.* Instead, he did everything in his power
to save Harry and his friends. Had he not acted as he did, Harry and
his friends would in all probability be dead.

Carol




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 10 07:17:47 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 07:17:47 -0000
Subject: Something Small
In-Reply-To: <c2jfmb+unc5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2mfer+te3g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92635

Jenni wrote:

<lots of interesting info on the hand of glory snipped>
> On another note of pure speculation...
> 
> Dean values his right hand, and fears losing it.
 
Do you remember where you read this? All I remember about Dean
(besides being Muggle-born and Seamus's best friend) is that he's good
with a quill. His drawing ability or his skill at forging signatures
has been mentioned IIRC in every book. Maybe that's the "something
small" (a minor skill) that will play a big role. At any rate, it's
been mentioned do often that it has to be important at some point--I
have absolutely no idea how.

Carol, who sincerely hopes that Dean will keep both his hands!




From psychobirdgirl at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 10 07:19:07 2004
From: psychobirdgirl at yahoo.com (psychobirdgirl)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 07:19:07 -0000
Subject: Chat - shorter summer at Dursleys
In-Reply-To: <20040309233341.52558.qmail@web41807.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c2mfhb+b9a0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92636

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Miss Melanie 
<ms_melanie1999 at y...> wrote:
> Am I the only person who thinks the reason why he will not be at 
Privet Drive is because Petunia will be murdered.  If Vernon kicks 
him out, and he doesn't have Petunia's protection what would the 
purpose of him staying be?  Harry is protected while living at 
Privet Drive, not any other member of the family.  
>  
> ~Melanie


psychobirdgirl(me):

This could well play into the theory that Dudley is a latent wizard, 
and his trigger would be his mother's death and the possible 
disownment by his father.  In which case does anyone think it's 
possible for Dumbledore to assume responsibility for both boys, 
leaving Dudley at Hogwart's?




From thephoenixrisingteam at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 10 07:00:37 2004
From: thephoenixrisingteam at yahoo.com (thephoenixrisingteam)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 07:00:37 -0000
Subject: Something Small
In-Reply-To: <c2jtf9+6kfv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2meel+u04e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92637

Jo "mooseming" <jo.sturgess at b...> wrote:

[snippy snip]
> Plus there are two players in the prophecy of which 'either must die
> at the HAND of the other' (my capitals). I've said elsewhere 'the 
> hand of the other' might be another other as it were and not the hand 
> of either of the two protagonists at all. We have two contenders for 
> that 'independent' hand, Wormtail's silver hand and the hand of glory.
> 
> Add in Harry's detention experience with Umbridge and there is a 
> very plausible case for the significance of the hand.


Mlle:

Another interesting thing is that, another name for Mandrake root 
is 'Main-de-Gloire' which translates from french to 'Hand of Glory' 

Sorry the post is so short, but I thought it was worth mentioning...

Mlle Bienvenu (using other account)







From melodiousmonkey at yahoo.com.au  Wed Mar 10 08:09:34 2004
From: melodiousmonkey at yahoo.com.au (melodiousmonkey)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 08:09:34 -0000
Subject: Ron's dreams (was: Some questions (JKR's chat)--Quidditch captain)
In-Reply-To: <c2jin8+c9nr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2mifu+anf2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92638

> > bboy_mn,
<snip>
> > This also ties in with the possiblity of Ron's view in the mirror 
> > of Erised being true- a hint by J.K. He is already a prefect, so 
> > who knows?
 

This got me thinking - what *are* Ron's dreams now?  A lot has 
happened to him since he looked in the mirror or Erised - I was just 
wondering how much his experiences have changed his desires.  I'm 
sure he'd still love to win the Quidditch Cup and all the rest, but I 
think other things are now more important to him.  Just a thought.

Monkey





From falkelihu at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 10 08:18:41 2004
From: falkelihu at yahoo.com (Elihu Falk)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 00:18:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: When did Fudge change his mind?
Message-ID: <20040310081841.6891.qmail@web61107.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92639

About the quote from OP, said by Fudge, "Or is there 
the usual simple explanation involving a reversal of time, a dead man coming back to life, and a couple of invisible 
dementors?", Ali wrote:

<<<When I read that passage, I understood the dead man to be Wormtail, not Voldemort. So Fudge didn't actually have to change his mind. He was talking about a different person.>>>
 
Elihu's answer:
 
There are three events mentioned in that passage, 2 of them are the time-turner incident [PA] and the dementors at Magnolia Cresent [OP]. These are #1 and #3 on the list. assuming the list is in chronological order, #2 would have to be something in between them; Wormtail showing up was before #1.
 
 



Elihu

---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





From falkelihu at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 10 08:32:46 2004
From: falkelihu at yahoo.com (Elihu Falk)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 00:32:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Apparting into the Ministry...
In-Reply-To: <20040310001831.25974.qmail@web14103.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20040310083247.27653.qmail@web61105.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92640

Kashelkar wrote:
I'm not still convinced why Voldemort didn't just
apparate near the 97th row of shelves in the Dept of
Mysteries, picked up the prophecy and Disapparate.

Tyler replied: 
Maybe apparation/disapparation is only possible in the
lobby. After all, if you could apparate into any
part of the MoM, why don't all the workers just
apparate straight to their desks?
 
Elihu's answer:
 
If apparation/Disapparation isn't possible to all locations in the MOM, then the Dept of Mysteries would be among the places that you can't apparate to. However, Dumbledore had to put the DEs in a room with an anti-apparation jynx. That means that, in fact, you can disapparate from anywhere in the ministry.


Elihu







From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 10 09:28:56 2004
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 09:28:56 -0000
Subject: Dudley's development
In-Reply-To: <c2lhda+77n1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2mn4o+j7lo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92641

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" 
<gbannister10 at a...> wrote:
> 
> Geoff:
> Looking at one or two comments made by various posters, folks, 
> this /is/ Mrs.Petunia Dursley, wife of the successful director of 
an 
> engineering company. She would not be carrying her child down the 
> street. (We were fairly ordinary folk and when our flock were at 
that 
> age and we were out, they were in pushchairs - too darned heavy to 
> carry for any length of time). Also, I can't see Petunia carrying 
> little Dudley (little did I say?) and a bag of sweets at the same 
> time; it wouldn't be quite the right thing in Privet Drive, now 
would 
> it?...... Can I remind you of Fiona Shaw's analysis of the Dursleys 
> which I quoted in message 92491?
> 
> If he was in a pushchair, then he wouldn't be in a position to kick 
> Mum.
> 
> Also, on the question of speaking, by about 16 months, our children 
> were possessed of a very small vocabulary, and many words would be 
> quite indistinct.
> 
> I still think there's something odd about young DD.


How about this:

Petunia *did* take Dudley out on a pushchair, but he was screaming 
and writhing, the way children do when they want out. As a highly 
indulgent mother, Petunia would of course take him out. I picture her 
pushing the pushchair with one hand, and holding to Dudley with the 
other. Dudley, meanwhile, hanging on her arm and kicking her freely. 



Naama




From hickengruendler at yahoo.de  Wed Mar 10 09:39:13 2004
From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 09:39:13 -0000
Subject: Ginny's development (was: SHIP: Harry and Hermione)
In-Reply-To: <c2m5hp+j3p3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2mno1+if9u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92642

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "suehpfan" <stanleys at s...> 
wrote:
 
> Sue here:
> 
> I think it is jumping to conclusions to assume Mr. and Mrs. 
Weasley, 
> Charlie or Bill had no knowledge of the flying Ginny.  

I didn't mention Bill and Charlie on purpose. I think it's possible 
that they don't know about Ginny flying, because they aren't at home, 
mostly. :-) And I have a hard time imagine Molly doesn't realize 
anything about iot.

> Ginny was home for a year while the middle four 
> were at school and we have no idea what she did in her spare time.  
> learning to fly and play Quidditch would have been a good use of 
it. 

Yes, but she couldn't have used the twins' broomsticks, because the 
broomsticks were at Hogwarts, too. That means, she had to use them, 
when the twins were there. I wish we were shown or at least told, 
that Ginny steals the broomstticks before book 5. But it's nearly as 
if we got nothing about Ginny in the first four books, and then 
suddenly everything in book 5.

Hickengruendler 




From mad_maxime at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 10 08:35:18 2004
From: mad_maxime at hotmail.com (mad_maxime)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 08:35:18 -0000
Subject: JKR chat--Snape the coward or the one left forever?
In-Reply-To: <c2mch0+4kg8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2mk06+qceo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92643

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67 at y...>
wrote:

> Carol wrote:
> As I've said, I think his position as seeming spy for Voldemort and
> real spy for Dumbledore is now in great danger of being exposed
> because both LV and Malfoy will (rightly) suspect him of having 
> acted for the Order instead of for them in the MoM affair. 
>  
> Susan:
> Carol, I'm intrigued as to why you believe Snape's now in great 
> danger of being exposed because of the MoM affair. Do you think 
> Voldy & Lucius believe DD only came because Snape must have told him 
> what was happening?  
> <snip> 
> 
> Carol:
> 
> Yes. Exactly. Maybe I'm assuming, as usual, but Kreacher probably 
> knew that Snape had contacted the Order members and he could well 
> have reported it to Malfoy or Narcissa.
> <snip>

Max:

I'm not so certain about that.  How would he have contacted them, or
they he?  Kreacher had returned to Grimmauld Place by that point in
the story. I don't see how he would have been able to tell the Malfoys
anything once he was back under Sirius' "rule".      

>  Carol:

> <snip>
> Dumbledore wasn't at Hogwarts and couldn't have known that Harry 
> was heading for the MoM unless someone told him, ans who else could
> it be besides Snape?
> <snip>

Max:

Kreacher.  OotP (p.830-831 US Edition): "All agreed to go to your aid
at once.  Professor Snape requested that Sirius remain behind, as he
needed someone at headquarters to tell me [Dumbledore] what had
happened, for I was due there at any moment. . . But Sirius did not
wish to remain behind while the others went to search for you. He
delegated to Kreacher the task of telling me what happened."

Carol:

> <snip>
> I think Snape's cover is finally blown... <snip> I don't see 
> how even Snape can wiggle out of this clear instance of being on the
> side of the Order. Can you think of a lie that could excuse him or 
> someone else he could blame without betraying the Order? Could he 
> somehow pin it on the conveniently dead Sirius? I don't think so.
> <snip>

Max:

But I think he can. Imo, it's more likely that Malfoy would just
assume Sirius had somehow forced Kreacher to admit what he had done -
ie. going to the Malfoys and then lying to Harry, letting him assume
that Sirius had gone to the DoM. With Harry gone missing, the Order
would then naturally assume he had gone after Sirius at the DoM.  

And Snape remains blameless.









From BrwNeil at aol.com  Wed Mar 10 11:45:22 2004
From: BrwNeil at aol.com (BrwNeil at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 06:45:22 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's Future and Career
Message-ID: <9a.54f80ce.2d8059d2@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92644

In a message dated 3/9/2004 10:12:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
nkafkafi at yahoo.com writes:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
> > As far as Harry's future and career, I think when this is all over
> > with, Harry is going to be sick and tired of fighting and 
struggle.
> > For the first time in his life, he is going to want some peace 
and 
> > quiet.


> Nuff:
> I have always thought that Harry would become a pro Quiddich player 
> myself.  There have been hints in this direction as well.  In CoS 
> when thinking about what courses to sign up for he thinks that 
> Quiddich is what he is best at, etc.
I know everyone is going to say he is too young, but I think Harry is already 
priming for his future job as DASA professor.  Think about it.  The job is 
always open and Dumbledore knows about the DA.  If Harry defeats the Dark Lord, 
young as he is, who could be a better candidate.  Everyone else can talk about 
it, Harry can actually do it and has.  Wouldn't that upset Snape?



Neil


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bkhaja at chartermi.net  Wed Mar 10 12:08:56 2004
From: bkhaja at chartermi.net (BARB AT HOME)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 07:08:56 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Strange Case of the Altered Spelling
In-Reply-To: <c2magp+ls8e@eGroups.com>
References: <c2magp+ls8e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <404F0558.2000607@chartermi.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 92645

capehoneysuckle wrote:

>>Lexicon Steve asketh:
>>
>>Am I correct in thinking that it's spelled
>>    
>>
>>>differently in the US editions than it is in the UK ones? My US
>>>books say Sibyll, while someone emailed me that it's spelled Sybill
>>>in the UK version. Can anyone verify this for me? I'd like to add a
>>>note to the page about Trelawney as well as a note on
>>>the "Differences" page, but I don't own the UK versions to be able
>>>to check.
>>>      
>>>
>>Amanda Geist answereth:
>>You appear to be correct.
>>
>>Page 228, PoA, US--"Sibyll, this is a pleasant surprise!" said
>>    
>>
>Dumbledore...
>  
>
>>and the other spellings conform in the US edition
>>
>>Page 169, PoA, Canadian (and thus UK as well, I believe)--'Sybill,
>>    
>>
>this is a
>  
>
>>pleasant surprise!' said Dumbledore...
>>and the subsequent spellings in this edition conform to *that* spelling.
>>
>>    
>>
>Honey(just to be complete):
>The Bloomsbury (UK) version is identical to the Canadian. Paperback
>page 169 "Sybill, this is a pleasant surprise!" said Dumbledore...
>Sorry for the short post.
>
>
>
>
>________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________
>
>Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File!
>http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin
>
>Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!
> 
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> 
>
>
>  
>
page 228

"Sibyll, this is a pleasant surprise!"


from USA hardback with following info on the page where I find edition 
(I believe it indicates the printing but I don't remember what the 
coding means, I have faith that Steve will know)

24 23 22 21 20 19 18 17 16 15             9/9 0/0   1 2 3 4    

Printed in the U.S.A.    23

First American edition, October 1999



Barb




From belijako at online.no  Wed Mar 10 12:15:56 2004
From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 12:15:56 -0000
Subject: Is Hermione Older or Younger than Harry?
In-Reply-To: <c2lh1c+v9gk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2n0ts+vtfb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92646

"snapesmate" wrote:
Yes, JKR actually stated Hermione was 10 when she started at 
Hogwarts during an interview.

Berit replies:

I just read a thread on this subject on another forum ("the boy who 
live forum"), and especially one post caught my eye (thanks Hugh 
Lapham). This is the gist of his thoughts:

Fred and George complain about not being able to enter the tournament 
in GoF, but they are only a bit off from turning seventeen. This 
means that they would not have been eleven when they started their 
first year at Hogwarts if you do the math. It means they are sixteen 
at the start of their sixth year and thus were only ten when starting 
year one.

In other words; Hermione could also have started as a ten year old! 
If Fred and George did, it's maybe not so uncommon.

Berit
http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html







From Ali at zymurgy.org  Wed Mar 10 12:26:01 2004
From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 12:26:01 -0000
Subject: Is Hermione Older or Younger than Harry?
In-Reply-To: <c2n0ts+vtfb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2n1gp+vso4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92647

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Berit Jakobsen" <> 

> I just read a thread on this subject on another forum ("the boy 
who live forum"), and especially one post caught my eye (thanks Hugh 
> Lapham). This is the gist of his thoughts:
> 
> Fred and George complain about not being able to enter the 
tournament in GoF, but they are only a bit off from turning 
seventeen. This means that they would not have been eleven when they 
started their first year at Hogwarts if you do the math. It means 
they are sixteen at the start of their sixth year and thus were only 
ten when starting year one.
 
> In other words; Hermione could also have started as a ten year 
old! If Fred and George did, it's maybe not so uncommon.

Ali replies:

My maths is a little different to yours:

Fred and George:

begin the first year aged 11, turn 12 in April
begin the second year aged 12, turn 13 in April
begin the third year aged 13, turn 14 in April
begin the fourth year aged 14, turn 15 in April
begin the fifth year aged 15, turn 16 in April
begin the sixth year (GoF) aged 16, turn 17 inApril: hence they 
cannot take part in the TriWizard tournament
begin the seventh year aged 17.

Ordinarily, all kids would start their first year at secondary 
school aged 11, and finish it aged 12 - just like Harry, Ron, Fred 
and George.

Fred and George did *not* start Hogwarts aged 10. That's how I did 
the Maths, anyway <g>.

Seriously, I now fully expect JKR to state that Hermione is younger 
than Harry. But, I just don't believe it was well thought through. 
She'll make the facts fit what she has already stated.

Ali




From belijako at online.no  Wed Mar 10 12:34:32 2004
From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 12:34:32 -0000
Subject: Ginny's development (was: SHIP: Harry and Hermione)
In-Reply-To: <c2mno1+if9u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2n20o+221m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92648

hickengruendler wrote:
But it's nearly as if we got nothing about Ginny in the first four 
books, and then suddenly everything in book 5.

Berit replies:

As I pointed out in an earlier post, there is a subtle development of 
Ginny's character during the first four books, but I suspect most 
readers have overlooked them because she is never in the front line 
of action (not even in CoS do we see much of her even though she was 
quite important to the plot...). We only notice Ginny's blushing and 
subconsciously bypass the small details thrown in showing her 
laughing, being mischievous, talking, having a life outside of 
Harry's head... Maybe Rowling wanted us to?

The HP-lexicon has an essay by "Water Witch" on Ginny. The author's 
theory is that Rowling intentionally didn't reveal too much of 
Ginny's true nature in the first books... Read it, it's very 
interesting! Here's the url: http://www.hp-lexicon.org/essays/essay-
harry-ginny.html

Berit
http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Wed Mar 10 12:41:24 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 12:41:24 -0000
Subject: JKR chat--Snape the coward or the one left forever?
In-Reply-To: <c2mk06+qceo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2n2dk+u5b8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92649


> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" 
<justcarol67 at y...>
> wrote:
> 
> > Carol wrote:
> > As I've said, I think his position as seeming spy for Voldemort 
and
> > real spy for Dumbledore is now in great danger of being exposed
> > because both LV and Malfoy will (rightly) suspect him of having 
> > acted for the Order instead of for them in the MoM affair. 


Potioncat:
I was looking in a quote site, but could not find what I was looking 
for.  Does anyone remember JKR saying that Snape had some difficult 
stuff coming, but not to worry because he is tough?  It may have 
been around the time of GoF, but I'm not sure.  I just wonder if it 
has anything to do with Book 6's plot line.
Potioncat





From gbannister10 at aol.com  Wed Mar 10 13:46:13 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 13:46:13 -0000
Subject: The Strange Case of the Altered Spelling
In-Reply-To: <c2mago+kso6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2n675+roed@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92650

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snapesmate" <snapesmate at h...> 
wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hp_lexicon" <steve at h...> 
wrote:
> > <snip> Am I correct in thinking that it's spelled 
> > differently in the US editions than it is in the UK ones? My US 
> > books say Sibyll, while someone emailed me that it's spelled 
Sybill 
> > in the UK version. Can anyone verify this for me? <snip>> 
> > Thanks
> > Steve
> > The Lexicon

Lynnette:
> Yes your thinking is correct!  Although, I have known several 
> American Sybills (yes here in the USA) and they ALL spelled their 
> name Sybill or Cybil.  I had never seen the named spelled with 
an "i" 
> first and the "y" second before reading PoA.  

Geoff:
When I first read about this in POA, my mind went to the Sibyl, the 
classical seer, (which seems logical, considering the good 
professor's specialty) having  being reminded of it by the words of 
Verdi's Requiem and the second section, the "Dies Irae":

Dies irae, dies illa,
Solvet saeclum in favilla, 
Teste David cum Sibylla.

The day of wrath, that day will
Dissolve the world in ashes
As David prophesied with the Sibyl.

More pertinently, I consulted our book of names (it's amazing what 
you put into the loft in the hope that it will come in useful 
someday). The book advised me:

Sibyl. In classical times, the Sibyls were prophetesses and some of 
them were supposed to have foretold the coming of Christ. Because of 
this, Sibylla came to be used as a first name, the Normans bringing 
it with them to England. Sybil or Sibyl had a revival in the second 
half of the 19th century after Disraeli had published his political 
novel of that name (1845). The actress Cybill Shepherd has introduced 
another form of the name.

Whatever the spelling, the name seems to carry the same meaning.





From Ali at zymurgy.org  Wed Mar 10 13:56:57 2004
From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 13:56:57 -0000
Subject: The Dudley Theory
In-Reply-To: <c2m25o+u5ke@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2n6r9+elor@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92651

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fauntine_80" 
<fauntine_80 at y...> wrote:

Of the possibility of Dudley being a latent wizard:-

> That's really a creative and complicated plot twist, but I am 
> disinclined to believe it.
> 
> #1. Usually wizard children show some sort of their "wizardness" 
> early on.  i.e.Harry talking to snakes and hair growing back, 
> Neville bouncing out the window, etc.
> Dudley has shown NO signs of it. 

Ali:-

How do we know that? We still don't know what is worst memeory was. 
Perhaps it was some kind of wizarding behaviour that Petunia reacted 
so badly to, that Dudley knew knew never to try to repeat it again. 
Also, it's more than possible that Dudley isn't a powerful wizard, 
so would only show magic if dropped out of a window or off Blackpool 
pier or some such life threatening event.
 
>>> #2.  The Dursleys have tried to squelch any 
possible "wizardness" from Harry, but were UNABLE to do so. Dudley 
was always treaded well for being the "normal" boy. And, again, he 
never showed any sign of "wizarness">>>

Ali:

Please see my post 83747 for an explanation of why the Dursley's 
treatment of Dudley might have led his magic to lie dormant.
 
>>> #3. What about the other schools?  Even if Dumbledore made an 
 agreement not to give Dudley a letter, would the other schools 
 possibly invite him to attend?>>>

Ali:

We have no evidence that the other wizarding schools know anything 
about Britishing Wizard children. Hogwarts know because of the Magic 
Quill but I don't think that other schools would know about Dudley 
or any other wizarding child - Little Whinging is not exactly in the 
Durmstrang catchment area for example. I know that Draco said his 
father considered putting him there, but that might only have been 
possible because of Malfoy's relationship with Karkaroff.

 
>>> #4. If Dudley was a wizard, and found out, what would happen?  
He has brainwashed to hate anything "abnormal."  He wouldn't be able 
to use his magic because he never attended wizarding school. So, 
what use would it be for him to be a wizard, other than irony?  If 
he was allowed to become a wizard, would he go to the dark side?>>>

Ali:

Well, hopefully we're soon find out. He's already rebelling against 
his parents by smoking unbeknownst to them and by lying to them. 
It's not such a stretch to imagine him trying to know more about an 
ability he finds himself with - particularly as it might have been 
one that he'd forgotten about, until he faced the dementors.

As a wizard with undeveloped powers, he'd represent a menace to 
himself and to others. And yes, there would be irony there, whole 
buckets of it! In terms of going to the dark side, I'd say that 
Dudley is potentially vulnerable. He's gone from bullying Harry to 
being afraid of him. It is possible to imagine him being persuaded 
into some kind of act of betrayal, to get his own back. But, Dudley 
would only ever be used by the Dark side. He would always be a 
Mudblood to them. His use would be a link to Harry, after that, he 
would be disposable. 

I think that all the Dursleys are vulnerable to attention from the 
DE, whether they possess magic powers or not.

Ali





From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Wed Mar 10 14:24:31 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:24:31 -0000
Subject: JKR chat--Snape the coward or the one left forever?
In-Reply-To: <c2mch0+4kg8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2n8ev+10raj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92652

> Carol wrote:
> As I've said, I think his position as seeming spy for Voldemort and
> real spy for Dumbledore is now in great danger of being exposed
> because both LV and Malfoy will (rightly) suspect him of having 
> acted for the Order instead of for them in the MoM affair. 
>  
> Susan:
> Carol, I'm intrigued as to why you believe Snape's now in great 
> danger of being exposed because of the MoM affair. Do you think 
> Voldy & Lucius believe DD only came because Snape must have told 
> him what was happening?  
> <snip> 
 
Carol:
> Yes. Exactly. Maybe I'm assuming, as usual, but Kreacher probably
> knew that Snape had contacted the Order members and he could well 
> have reported it to Malfoy or Narcissa. Even if Kreacher didn't 
> talk, there was no one else at Hogwarts who could have told 
> Dumbledore and the Order to go to the MoM to rescue Harry. (It 
> couldn't have been McGonagall, who was in St. Mungo's, and besides, 
> she knew less than Snape about LV's plans.)
> 
<snip> Dumbledore wasn't at Hogwarts and couldn't have
> known that Harry was heading for the MoM unless someone told him, 
> and who else could it be besides Snape? 


Susan:
Assumptions??  On *this* list?  Tee hee.  Of course we all make 
assumptions. :-)  And I think yours is plausible *but* I think there 
are others who might assume other things.  

A couple of possibilities for alternative scenarios I can think of 
are:

1) Is it not possible (though not very exciting, I'll grant), that 
Harry could have left a note w/ someone?  Maybe another DA member, 
with instructions to owl it to an Order member [Dung, Moody, 
Kingsley, Tonks]?
2) Is it not also possible, given how owls can find *anyone*, that 
Harry could have run up to the owlery himself before leaving and sent 
an owl to DD? [We have canon for this possibility.  Remember Harry 
sending owls to Sirius when Sirius was on the run?]

Those aren't very exciting possibilities, but they are at least other 
possibilities than that Snape contacted DD to tell him about Harry's 
rushing off to the MoM.

Siriusly Snapey Susan






From sophierom at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 10 14:30:40 2004
From: sophierom at yahoo.com (sophierom)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:30:40 -0000
Subject: Ron, Hermione and the Elves
In-Reply-To: <c2ii4c+v3tq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2n8qg+nfik@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92653

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" <nkafkafi at y...> 
wrote:
> > I understand that House-elves who can be released from their 
slavery 
> > by presenting them with cloth is not JKR's sole imagination, but 
a 
> > respected tradition/legend/mythology. Perhaps this tradition 
also 
> > tells us about the charm that originated it? Does anybody know 
> > anything about House-elves in legend and where can I read about 
them? 
> > In the Web I can't find any non-Potterian house elves.
> > 
> 
> As I understand it, they are based on the 'Brownie" myth.
> 
> These are reputed to be attached to households (the building, not 
the
> persons) and appear at night to do all the chores. In some 
variants they
> can only be seen by children. If offered food or gifts they 
vanish, never to
> return. (This is the Scottish version)
> 
> The English variant is Robin Goodfellow and interestingly, Brewers 
Dict. of
> Phrase and Fable states "...he is supposed to busy himself on 
little jobs for
> the family *over which he presides.* (My emphases) He is very 
definitely 
> not a slave, but the master of the house.
> 
> Whichever you take, the work done is voluntary and they are not 
capable of
> being coerced, bribed or enslaved. They make their own decisions.
> 
> This fits in well with those that have long theorised that House 
Elves are
> not slaves; they're too magical. There is some sort of complex 
relationship
> going on that we have not been told about. But it's significant 
that neither
> Hagrid (old softy for any creature) nor DD (moral rectitude 
personified) will
> back Hermione in her crusade. They know something we don't.
> 
> Kneasy

Sophierom:
Interesting points, Kneasy. But I also think it's significant that 
the first house elf we see in the WW is Dobby, who definitely exists 
in a master-slave relationship with the Malfoys and who loves his 
freedom once he attains it. Certainly the relationship between most 
house elves and the wizards they serve is a complex one. But I do 
believe that JKR wants us to understand that something has gone very 
wrong with this relationship, that wizards have polluted this 
relationship by their arrogance and sense of superiority.  And 
although she goes about it in all the wrong ways, it seems that 
Hermione, a muggle born, is more willing to see this problem than 
others who have lived in the WW all their lives. Harry, too, sees 
this in his relationship with Dobby, though he does not make this 
into a political crusade the way Hermione does.  And in fact, 
Dumbledore recognizes this too, even if he doesn't wear a S.P.E.W. 
badge; in OotP, he agrees with Hermione when she argues for better 
treatment of Kreacher.  His discussions about Kreacher indicate that 
wizards have screwed up the relationship between house elves and 
humans.  

It seems to me that Dobby's attitude is perhaps the best of all the 
characters when it comes to this issue.  Dobby says that he loves 
work (suggesting that this connection to a household is part of his 
culture and being) but that he also loves his freedom and his 
autonomy (suggesting that the way that most wizards AND house elves -
 like Winky - act now is somehow a distortion of the original wizard-
house elf relationship.).  

Sophierom




From rredordead at aol.com  Wed Mar 10 15:03:08 2004
From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 15:03:08 -0000
Subject: Will Hogwarts be Attacked?
In-Reply-To: <c2lcut+hfpg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2nanc+2sfb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92654

> Bobby  wrote:
> In Book 1, when Hagrid is telling Harry about the first LV war, he 
> says that LV "didn't done try takin' the school, not jus then, 
> anyways."  This suggests that JKR is thinking of having LV attack 
> Hogwarts this time.  Ooh, that would be fun.
 

Mandy here:
Absolutely.  I believe it'll be attacked for certain.  Look at the 
clues already in place:

The Sorting Hat said that a unification of the Houses must happen or 
the school will "...crumble from within."  Disaster if the school is 
also being threatened from the outside.  Right now, just about the 
only thing, imo, that will bring Slytherin in line with the other 3 
houses, is if Hogwarts and the live of the children themselves are 
threatened.  Of course the children of the Death Eaters will be on LV 
side, but not all Slytherins are DE offspring.   

The Chamber of Secrets is a dangerous weak spot for DD and his allies 
inside the school.  As is the forbidden Forest, a haven for Dark 
Creatures.  How can LV not use them both to his advantage?

Most of the action in the books so far has taken place while Harry is 
at Hogwarts, and I don't see the formula changing in the last 2 
books.  JKR can't have Harry leaving school to fight in the war for 
it would scatter all the principal characters. But she can have the 
war come to Harry and Co., at school. This also allows for not only 
the trio to be present, but also include everyone else; DD, Snape, 
Hagrid, McGonigal, Draco, Neville, Luna, Ginny, all of Dumbledore's 
Army, etc. etc. etc.  Plus the attack will bring to Hogwarts; LV, 
Bellatrix, Wormtail, other DE not in Azkaban, the Dementors, Dragons, 
Giants, and other Dark creatures in LV army.

I can't see how the school would not be involved.  Roll on book 6!!

Cheers Mandy





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Mar 10 15:30:29 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 15:30:29 -0000
Subject: Snape and the MOM Re: JKR chat--Snape the coward or the one left forever?
In-Reply-To: <c2mch0+4kg8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2ncal+g1c3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92655

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" 
<justcarol67 at y...> wrote:
> Carol wrote:
> As I've said, I think his position as seeming spy for Voldemort 
and real spy for Dumbledore is now in great danger of being 
exposed because both LV and Malfoy will (rightly) suspect him of 
having  acted for the Order instead of for them in the MoM affair. 
>  
> Susan:
> Carol, I'm intrigued as to why you believe Snape's now in great 
> danger of being exposed because of the MoM affair. Do you 
think  Voldy & Lucius believe DD only came because Snape 
must have told him  what was happening?  
> <snip> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. Exactly. Maybe I'm assuming, as usual, but Kreacher 
probably knew that Snape had contacted the Order members 
and he could well have reported it to Malfoy or Narcissa. Even if 
Kreacher didn't talk, therewas no one else at Hogwarts who 
could have told Dumbledore and the Order to go to the MoM to 
rescue Harry. (It couldn't have been McGonagall, who was in St. 
Mungo's, and besides, she knew less than Snape about LV's 
plans.)<<

Snape only needs to tell Voldie that he's  just discovered that the 
Order knew all along that only Voldemort or Harry could get the 
prophecy from the MoM and that the Order had also been 
informed about Harry's dreams about the Department of 
Mysteries.  So when Snape reported to the Order that Harry was 
missing, after searching in the forest and otherwise delaying as 
long as he could without rousing suspicion,  they unfortunately 
already knew where to look. 

He could also claim that he could hardly avoid contacting the 
Order about Harry's cryptic message, since it would definitely 
have aroused Dumbledore's suspicions if he hadn't. Even if 
Harry never came back from the Department of Mysteries, a 
number of other students had heard him.

Pippin







From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Mar 10 15:36:04 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 15:36:04 -0000
Subject: Imperio'd Member of the Order (WAS: Snape's position)
In-Reply-To: <c2l8f5+keem@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2ncl4+dvnn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92656


> Sue wrote:
> > Where *is* Snape when all of these things happen to Harry?  
The only  thing we know for sure is that he isn't there (or at least, 
we can't  see him) we only have Snape's word for his where 
abouts at the time  of the MoM at least.  I think it is just as
likely 
that lovely Bella  did send the curse that killed Sirius, but the 
image of Snape in an  invisibility cloak, zapping him through the 
vail is appealing.  <<

Sedyn
> But there are two members of the Order who can see through 
> invisibility cloaks: Dumbledore and Moody. I can't remember 
where Moody was of that time but Dumbledore was in the room 
and I don't  think Snape would risk zapping Sirius right in front of 
Dumbledore even if he was distracted.<<

Moody lost his magical eye early in the battle. It is also not clear 
that Dumbledore can see through the cloak. Perhaps he saw 
only  Harry's reflection  in the Mirror of Erised. An intriguing 
possibility is that Snape was there, saw who killed Sirius, but 
can't reveal it without blowing his cover.

Pippin







From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Wed Mar 10 15:49:07 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 15:49:07 -0000
Subject: When did Fudge change his mind?
In-Reply-To: <20040310081841.6891.qmail@web61107.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c2nddj+obfo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92657

Elihu:
> About the quote from OP, said by Fudge, "Or is there 
> the usual simple explanation involving a reversal of time, a dead 
> man coming back to life, and a couple of invisible dementors?"

Ali wrote:
<<<When I read that passage, I understood the dead man to be 
Wormtail, not Voldemort. So Fudge didn't actually have to change his 
mind. He was talking about a different person.>>>
  
Elihu's answer:
> There are three events mentioned in that passage, 2 of them are the 
> time-turner incident [PA] and the dementors at Magnolia Cresent 
> OP]. These are #1 and #3 on the list. assuming the list is in 
> chronological order, #2 would have to be something in between them; 
> Wormtail showing up was before #1.

Susan:
I think you may be giving a wee bit too much credit to Fudge for 
thinking so rationally & orderly.  How many of *us* arrange our spur-
of-the-moment & while-we're-upset comments in chronological order?  

Personally, I think Ali's got an interesting take on the dead person 
coming back to life as being Wormtail, but that's just me.  Anyway, 
the original post about Fudge changing his mind about the possibility 
of Voldy's return was an interesting spot...and still intrigues me.

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Wed Mar 10 15:51:36 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 15:51:36 -0000
Subject: Apparting into the Ministry...
In-Reply-To: <20040310083247.27653.qmail@web61105.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c2ndi8+fn03@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92658

Kashelkar wrote:
> I'm not still convinced why Voldemort didn't just
> apparate near the 97th row of shelves in the Dept of
> Mysteries, picked up the prophecy and Disapparate.
 
Tyler replied: 
> Maybe apparation/disapparation is only possible in the
> lobby. After all, if you could apparate into any
> part of the MoM, why don't all the workers just
> apparate straight to their desks?
  
Elihu's answer:
> If apparation/Disapparation isn't possible to all locations in the 
MOM, then the Dept of Mysteries would be among the places that you 
can't apparate to. However, Dumbledore had to put the DEs in a room 
with an anti-apparation jynx. That means that, in fact, you can 
disapparate from anywhere in the ministry.
 
Susan:
Jeepers, I feel like I'm nitpicking your posts today, Elihu, and I 
don't mean to....  But maybe what DD did was put an anti-apparition 
jinx on the DEs themselves.  So that if they ran from a particular 
part of the MoM where apparition isn't possible to a part where it 
is, they still couldn't leave?  Does anyone have the text to show 
clearly how DD applied the jinx?  As usual, I'm at work w/o 
references handy. :-|

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Wed Mar 10 15:59:31 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 15:59:31 -0000
Subject: Harry's Future and Career
In-Reply-To: <9a.54f80ce.2d8059d2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <c2ne13+j1m8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92659

Steve [I think!] wrote:
> > > As far as Harry's future and career, I think when this is all 
> > > over with, Harry is going to be sick and tired of fighting and 
> > > struggle. For the first time in his life, he is going to want 
> > > some peace and quiet.
 
Nuff:
> > I have always thought that Harry would become a pro Quiddich 
> > player myself.  

Neil:
> I know everyone is going to say he is too young, but I think Harry 
> is already priming for his future job as DASA professor.  Think 
> about it.  The job is always open and Dumbledore knows about the 
> DA.  If Harry defeats the Dark Lord, young as he is, who could be a 
> better candidate.  Everyone else can talk about it, Harry can 
> actually do it and has.  Wouldn't that upset Snape?

Susan:
There's just the problem of JKR's having said that Harry *wouldn't* 
return as a teacher to Hogwarts, though one of his classmates will.  
There's also her comment in the recent WBD chat:

gazza: will harry become head master of hogwarts 
JK Rowling replies -> I'm not sure I can see Harry in an academic 
career, he's seen so much action!

Harry as DADA teacher is a popular idea, but I think these two 
comments pretty much eliminate that possibility.

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Wed Mar 10 16:03:13 2004
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 16:03:13 -0000
Subject: Hermione's age
Message-ID: <c2ne81+61e3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92660

As an English resident (the Scottish system is different, BTW, 
though in most aspects Hogwarts appears to be following an English 
model), I sympathise with the 'old Hermione' position.

However, there is one argument advanced in support of this position, 
that I think does not hold water: that Hermione would already be at 
the top end of her age group in Junior School ('Grade School' for US 
members), and therefore would carry on this way at Hogwarts.  In the 
same way, I don't think the possibility that Hermione might have 
started Junior (or earlier) school in an age group above her own has 
any relevance.

It's clear that the wizarding world, and Hogwarts in particular, pay 
very little attention to Muggle sensibilities in the way they 
operate (I was glad to hear that Muggle-born children do get a visit 
instead of just a letter).  In the case of admission, it seems that 
McGonagall merely goes by the information provided by the Hogwarts 
Quill.  If a person is not in their final year of Muggle Junior 
School, that makes no difference: the letter goes out.

I think therefore that, absent a definitive statement of her age, 
this debate can only really be settled by reference to Hogwarts 
practice and internal evidence, not wider Muggle practice.

The fact that, in nearly all verifiable points, Hogwarts does follow 
an English school pattern (entry at *about* 11, examinations in the 
5th and 7th years, in one case with a similar name, a four-house 
system, the apparent possibility of leaving after the first set of 
examinations, the possibility of failed candidates re-sitting a year 
later, all students whose age is verifiable starting at 11, 
vacations for Summer, Christmas, and Easter), in the absence of more 
definitive evidence one should conclude that Hermione is indeed 
older than Harry.

Congratulations to Ali for brilliantly exploiting a weakness widely 
acknowledged in the fandom, to re-open a debate thought settled.

David




From puju02 at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Mar 10 14:13:05 2004
From: puju02 at yahoo.co.uk (puju02)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:13:05 -0000
Subject: Crookshanks
In-Reply-To: <c2g7nf+4mt5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2n7ph+9que@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92661

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mclellyn" <ellyn337 at e...> 
wrote:
>  
> Gadfly McLellyn writes:
> 
> I still have suspicions that Crookshanks is an animagus.  
> > Has anyone else noticed that the description of Mundungus 
Fletcher and the description of Crookshanks are similar?
> 
Puja replies:
I did make the connection with mundungus, but JKR's latest online 
chat made me change my version for two reasons: first, she says 
crookshanks is not really a cat (So i read in fantastic beasts that 
he is an Kneazle.) And a Kneazle is not an animagus. Secondly, it 
doen't sound like the genius of JKR to put the obvious connection 
that people make. She has a knack of coming up with a bizzare, not 
likely tale. Also, is mundungus is the relative animagus or the 
animagus himself, what had he been doing in the magical minagerie for 
so long when "no one wanted him"...just a thought,





From puju02 at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Mar 10 14:25:04 2004
From: puju02 at yahoo.co.uk (puju02)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:25:04 -0000
Subject: JKR chat--Snape the coward or the one left forever?
In-Reply-To: <c2fo8g+vl08@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2n8g0+c2mq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92662

> 
> Susan:
I think if Voldy was 
> going to be convinced to actually listen to an explanation, it 
would 
> be more likely from the one he planned to punish, rather than from 
> the one he planned to kill.  Does that make sense?
> I was just trying to argue one rationale for Snape as coward....
> 
Puja:
There is just one loop I find to that assumption, Susan. We've seen 
with wormtail that LV gives very harsh punishments. But since then we 
haven't seen any kind of trauma that he has suffered. My thinking is 
that Snape's work is more as a legilimens (DD says he's excellent at 
that). 
But I can see you're really keen to prove Snape a coward and no-ghood 
person :-) I'd agree with you there :-D





From lizvega2 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 10 16:07:05 2004
From: lizvega2 at yahoo.com (lizvega2)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 16:07:05 -0000
Subject: Malfoy/Karkaroff
Message-ID: <c2nef9+fs3k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92663

I was just reading a post, and someone mentioned that Lucius 
might've sent Draco to Durmstrang, if not for his mother wanting him 
near to her. I believe the canon is in GOF- the Hogwarts Express 
chapter. 

Hold the phone. If Karkaroff was released from prison for 
incriminating the other DE's (There's no mention of Lucius at 
Karkaroff's hearing) why would Lucius want to send his son to a 
traitor for wizard training? Even LV knows in the graveyard scene in 
GOF that Lucius hasn't renounced the 'old' ways. 

I'm just trying to imagine Lucius weighing the pro's and con's 

<hmmm.....Send Draco to that traitoring coward? Or to that muggle-
loving fool Dumbledore?> I guess the Dark Arts lost out....




From tipgardner at netscape.net  Wed Mar 10 14:17:04 2004
From: tipgardner at netscape.net (tipgardner)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:17:04 -0000
Subject: numerology-ing the new middle names and a bit of SHIP
In-Reply-To: <c2lf1s+korc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2n810+6n5t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92664

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "evilnuff" <EvilNuff at y...> wrote:

> I am confused here, for Ron:
> Ronald = 9+6+5+1+3+4 = 28
> Weasley = 5+5+1+1+3+5+7 = 27
> adding each name's sum = 55
> Where do you get a number One from this?
> 
> -Nuff


Hi Nuff,

I think in the system laid out (snipped) one needs to still add one
more time for each name and then out them together, gibing:

Ronald = 10 (or 1)
Weasley = 9 

1 + 9 = 10 (or 1 again).

Best regards,

Tip





From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Wed Mar 10 16:14:46 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 16:14:46 -0000
Subject: JKR chat--Snape the coward or the one left forever?
In-Reply-To: <c2n8g0+c2mq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2netm+f3o0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92665

Susan:
> > I think if Voldy was going to be convinced to actually listen to 
> > an explanation, it would be more likely from the one he planned 
> > to punish, rather than from the one he planned to kill.  Does 
> > that make sense?
> > I was just trying to argue one rationale for Snape as coward....

Puja:
> There is just one loop I find to that assumption, Susan. We've seen 
> with wormtail that LV gives very harsh punishments. But since then 
> we haven't seen any kind of trauma that he has suffered. My 
> thinking is that Snape's work is more as a legilimens (DD says he's 
> excellent at that). 
> But I can see you're really keen to prove Snape a coward and no-
> ghood person :-) I'd agree with you there :-D

Susan:
No, no, no!!!  Please don't get me wrong on that topic!  *I* happen 
to think Snape is truly working for DD & the Order, and that he is 
very brave!  No, *all* I was trying to do was argue the *possibility* 
that Snape might be the one *Voldy* thought of as the coward, rather 
than necessarily the one Voldy thought was gone forever.  

Whatever Voldy thought of Snape, I am also [at *this time, anyway] 
convinced that Snape has managed to convince him that he's still 
working for the DEs.

Glad for the chance to get my position clearly stated, even if it 
disappoints you that I'm on the "wrong" side. :-)

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From sophierom at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 10 16:34:21 2004
From: sophierom at yahoo.com (sophierom)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 16:34:21 -0000
Subject: Crookshanks
In-Reply-To: <c2n7ph+9que@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2ng2d+9v0r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92666

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "puju02" <puju02 at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mclellyn" <ellyn337 at e...> 
> wrote:
> >  
> > Gadfly McLellyn writes:
> > 
> > I still have suspicions that Crookshanks is an animagus.  
> > > Has anyone else noticed that the description of Mundungus 
> Fletcher and the description of Crookshanks are similar?
> > 
> Puja replies:
> I did make the connection with mundungus, but JKR's latest online 
> chat made me change my version for two reasons: first, she says 
> crookshanks is not really a cat (So i read in fantastic beasts 
that 
> he is an Kneazle.) And a Kneazle is not an animagus. Secondly, it 
> doen't sound like the genius of JKR to put the obvious connection 
> that people make. She has a knack of coming up with a bizzare, not 
> likely tale. Also, is mundungus is the relative animagus or the 
> animagus himself, what had he been doing in the magical minagerie 
for 
> so long when "no one wanted him"...just a thought,

Sophierom:

I posted on this a while ago (see post 91485: 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/91485).  In the 
post, I talk about the similarities in Mundungus and Crookshank's 
descriptions.  But, canon also shows that Crookshanks can't be 
Mundundgus in anamagi form because they're actually in the same room 
together in OotP.  Still, given the similar descriptions, I can't 
help but wonder if there's some sort of connection between the two. 
This could be a thematic or plot connection and not necessarily an 
actual blood connection.  Perhaps JKR is suggesting the Dung, like 
Crookshanks in POA, will be instrumental in some future plot.  

Sophierom




From belijako at online.no  Wed Mar 10 16:44:47 2004
From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 16:44:47 -0000
Subject: Imperio'd Member of the Order (WAS: Snape's position)
In-Reply-To: <c2ncl4+dvnn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2nglv+8htt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92667

Pippin wrote:

It is also not clear that Dumbledore can see through the cloak. 
Perhaps he saw only  Harry's reflection in the Mirror of Erised. An 
intriguing possibility is that Snape was there, saw who killed 
Sirius, but can't reveal it without blowing his cover.

Berit replies:

I think you're right that we don't have hard canon evidence 
Dumbledore really can *see* through invisibility cloaks, but it's 
quite likely he can. It's not only the incident of the Mirror of 
Erised; Dumbledore was also very much aware of Harry and Ron's 
presence in Hagrid's hut when Fudge came to arrest Hagrid in CoS; 
Harry and Ron were standing quietly in a corner, covered with the 
cloak. Neither Fudge nor Lucius Malfoy (who also paid a visit) saw 
the boys. But before he leaves, Dumbledore says something that is 
clearly meant for Harry's ears and not for any of the grown-ups 
present:

"'However,' said Dumbledore, speaking very slowly and clearly, so 
that none of them could miss a word, 'you'll find that I will only 
truly have left this school when none here are loyal to me. You will 
also find that help will always be given at Hogwarts to those who 
asks for it.'
For a second, Harry was almost sure Dumbledore's eyes flickered 
towards the corner where he and Ron stood hidden." (CoS p. 195 UK 
Edition)

So, this suggests quite strongly DD knew they were there. If it's 
only a "feeling" he gets, some sort of radar, or if his eyesight 
physically is able to penetrate the fabric of the cloak we don't 
know, but from the "flickering of his eyes" it's safe to assume he 
can see through invisibility cloaks.

Berit
http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html




From eloiseherisson at aol.com  Wed Mar 10 16:46:18 2004
From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloise_herisson)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 16:46:18 -0000
Subject: Malfoy/Karkaroff
In-Reply-To: <c2nef9+fs3k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2ngoq+e8ej@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92668

lizvega2:

> If Karkaroff was released from prison for 
> incriminating the other DE's (There's no mention of Lucius at 
> Karkaroff's hearing) why would Lucius want to send his son to a 
> traitor for wizard training? Even LV knows in the graveyard scene 
in 
> GOF that Lucius hasn't renounced the 'old' ways. 

It's not clear how public this hearing was or whether the proceedings 
were publicised beyond those present in the chamber at the time.

Karkaroff named Snape, remember and there is no evidence elsewhere in 
the books that anyone other than Dumbledore and those involved in the 
WW hearings knew his past before the end of GoF.

So perhaps Lucius simply did not know that Karkaroff was a traitor.

~Eloise




From rredordead at aol.com  Wed Mar 10 18:55:53 2004
From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 18:55:53 -0000
Subject: Malfoy/Karkaroff
In-Reply-To: <c2ngoq+e8ej@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2nobp+315d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92669

> lizvega2 wrote:
> > If Karkaroff was released from prison for 
> > incriminating the other DE's (There's no mention of Lucius at 
> > Karkaroff's hearing) why would Lucius want to send his son to a 
> > traitor for wizard training? Even LV knows in the graveyard scene 
> in GOF that Lucius hasn't renounced the 'old' ways. 

> ~Eloise wrote:
> It's not clear how public this hearing was or whether the 
>proceedings were publicised beyond those present in the chamber at 
>the time. Karkaroff named Snape, remember and there is no evidence 
>elsewhere in the books that anyone other than Dumbledore and those 
>involved in the WW hearings knew his past before the end of GoF.
> So perhaps Lucius simply did not know that Karkaroff was a traitor.


Mandy here:
I'm inclined to think that Lucius did know that Karkaroff was a 
traitor or at least suspected that that was what Karkaroff would do 
if pushed.  In a close knit group like the DE it's more than likely 
that someone as smart as Malfoy, would have singled out Karakroff as 
a potential traitor within five minutes of meeting him.  Malfoy is 
not one to be ignorant of anything that has to do with himself, and 
Karkaroff incriminating Death Eaters was a huge risk for Lucius; it 
would have sent him to Azkaban.  It's worth considering just how much 
power a 26-year-old Lucius Malfoy had back at the time of LV fall.  
Or perhaps it was his families' influence that protected him at that 
time.  If Lucius himself had not the connections, yet, at the MoM, 
I'd bet his family did, and they would had their spies working full 
time, gathering as much information as they could to protect their 
prodigal son.  And I certain that Malfoy, his family or someone would 
have got to Karkaroff before the MoM and insured that the Malfoy name 
would not be mentioned.  

As far as Hogwarts vs. Durmstrang for Draco?  Lucius wanted 
Durmstrang because does not admit muggle born students, and it has 
classes that actually teach the Dark Arts, not just the Defense of 
the Dark Arts, as Hogwarts does.  

I'm sure Lucius would have not given much though to Karkaroff being 
the Headmaster.  Yes, Karkaroff was a despicable traitor but I'm sure 
Lucius would have simply used that to keep Karkaroff in his place, 
well below Malfoy and son.

Cheers Mandy





From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Wed Mar 10 19:15:09 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 19:15:09 -0000
Subject: JKR chat--Snape the coward or the one left forever?
In-Reply-To: <c2mepk+kdfi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2npft+6qi6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92670

snip> 
> If Snape were evil, wouldn't he simply have left Harry to the DEs
> without contacting the Order AND Dumbledore? Dumbledore would have 
no
> way of knowing that Snape knew anything about Harry's disappearance.
> All he would have had to do is to pretend not to understand Harry 
(as
> he did) and then do *nothing.* Instead, he did everything in his 
power
> to save Harry and his friends. Had he not acted as he did, Harry and
> his friends would in all probability be dead.
> 
> Carol

We have many examples of DD knowing exactly what is going on 
inside "his" school whether he is there or not.  For all we know one 
of those lovely kitten plates in Umbridge's office could have been 
letting DD know what is going on in there all year long.  There are 
so many, many examples of people spying on Harry that there him even 
inside the school, especially when DD was not ever present (I do 
*not* see Snape in this capacity).  

For as many ways as you can say Snape is going to be caught by 
Voldemort as working for the Order, you  can reverse it and say he is 
working tirelessly against them.  It all depends on your perspective, 
whether you think Snape is evil or not.  Unfortunately for us, the 
only person who knows probably won't tell us for sure until the end 
of book 7.

Still riding the fence, but currently leaning toward ESE!Snape,
Sue




From gbannister10 at aol.com  Wed Mar 10 19:15:00 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 19:15:00 -0000
Subject: Malfoy/Karkaroff
In-Reply-To: <c2nef9+fs3k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2npfk+n4g4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92671

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lizvega2" <lizvega2 at y...> 

Lizvega2:
> I was just reading a post, and someone mentioned that Lucius 
> might've sent Draco to Durmstrang, if not for his mother wanting 
him 
> near to her. I believe the canon is in GOF- the Hogwarts Express 
> chapter. 
> 

Geoff:
It is indeed.

"'...Father actually considered sending me to Durmstrang rather than 
Hogwarts, you know. He knows the Headmaster, you see. Well, you know 
his opinion of Dumbledore - the man's such a Mudblood-lover - and 
Durmstrang doesn't admit that sort of riff-raff. But Mother didn't 
like the idea of me going to school so far away.'

(GOF "Aboard the Hogwarts Express" p.147 UK edition)




From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Wed Mar 10 19:26:58 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 19:26:58 -0000
Subject: Chat - shorter summer at Dursleys
In-Reply-To: <c2mfhb+b9a0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2nq62+j8tq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92672

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "psychobirdgirl" 
<psychobirdgirl at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Miss Melanie 
> <ms_melanie1999 at y...> wrote:
> > Am I the only person who thinks the reason why he will not be at 
> Privet Drive is because Petunia will be murdered.  If Vernon kicks 
> him out, and he doesn't have Petunia's protection what would the 
> purpose of him staying be?  Harry is protected while living at 
> Privet Drive, not any other member of the family.  
> >  
> > ~Melanie
> 
> 
> psychobirdgirl(me):
> 
> This could well play into the theory that Dudley is a latent 
wizard, 
> and his trigger would be his mother's death and the possible 
> disownment by his father.  In which case does anyone think it's 
> possible for Dumbledore to assume responsibility for both boys, 
> leaving Dudley at Hogwart's?

Oh *please* no!  What house would he be in?  Probably a Slytherin, 
even though he is muggle born.  Where else would he fit.  It's just 
too ugly for me to think about.  I like the idea posted earlier that 
the protection extends both ways. 

Imagine the turn around:
  
   "Harry, please!" begged Petunia as Harry packed his trunk.  "You 
have to stay at least one more day for this to be considered your 
home.  You can't leave us with out protection, we're muggles!"  and 
then Harry "Alright, Aunt Petunia.  But only if you make me a cake 
for my birthday, and let my friends come around."

Now that would be commic relief.  I a big birthday bash on Privet Dr. 
with all of the various characters visiting.  Luna with her Snorkack 
perhaps?  Maybe even Mundungus.

Loving the idea of a total shift in power on Privet,
Sue




From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Wed Mar 10 19:52:04 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 19:52:04 -0000
Subject: Apparting into the Ministry...
In-Reply-To: <c2ndi8+fn03@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2nrl4+e31m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92673

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" 
<susiequsie23 at s...> wrote:
> Kashelkar wrote:
> > I'm not still convinced why Voldemort didn't just
> > apparate near the 97th row of shelves in the Dept of
> > Mysteries, picked up the prophecy and Disapparate.
>  
> Tyler replied: 
> > Maybe apparation/disapparation is only possible in the
> > lobby. After all, if you could apparate into any
> > part of the MoM, why don't all the workers just
> > apparate straight to their desks?
>   
> Elihu's answer:
> > If apparation/Disapparation isn't possible to all locations in 
the 
> MOM, then the Dept of Mysteries would be among the places that you 
> can't apparate to. However, Dumbledore had to put the DEs in a room 
> with an anti-apparation jynx. That means that, in fact, you can 
> disapparate from anywhere in the ministry.
>  
> Susan:
> Jeepers, I feel like I'm nitpicking your posts today, Elihu, and I 
> don't mean to....  But maybe what DD did was put an anti-apparition 
> jinx on the DEs themselves.  So that if they ran from a particular 
> part of the MoM where apparition isn't possible to a part where it 
> is, they still couldn't leave?  Does anyone have the text to show 
> clearly how DD applied the jinx?  As usual, I'm at work w/o 
> references handy. :-|
> 
> Siriusly Snapey Susan

The relevant quote is:
"you will find several escaped Death Eaters contained in the Death 
Chamber, bound by an Anti-Disapparation Jinx and awaiting your 
decision as to what to do with them."  (Dumbledore) OotP US pg.817

It does not explain whether or not they could have apparated from 
there or not.  However, it seems there would have been no reason for 
the DE's reaction to DD's arrival if they could have just apparated 
away "there were yells; one of the Death Eaters ran for it, 
scrabbling like a monkey up the stone steps opposite.  Dumbledore's 
spell pulled him back as easily and effortlessly as though he had 
hooked him with an invisible line-" OotP US pg. 805.  I'm sure no one 
would choose to "scrabble" when they could simply disappear.  

The only example we have on apparition in the MoM is in the Atrium 
where Voldemort and DD ultimately have their duel.  And I think you 
are right Susan, DD was simply keeping them contained where they 
could not get to an area where they could apparate home.

Interesting though that DD only mentions the escaped DEs and not the 
new ones.  We know Lucius wound up in Azkaban so he must have been 
caught.  I guess DD thought it was too much for Fudge's small mind to 
comprehend.

Sue




From kkearney at students.miami.edu  Wed Mar 10 19:57:58 2004
From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 19:57:58 -0000
Subject: "Seeing" through invisility cloaks (WAS Re: Imperio'd Member of the Order)
In-Reply-To: <c2nglv+8htt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2ns06+1usm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92674

Pippin wrote:
 
> It is also not clear that Dumbledore can see through the cloak. 
> Perhaps he saw only  Harry's reflection in the Mirror of Erised. An 
> intriguing possibility is that Snape was there, saw who killed 
> Sirius, but can't reveal it without blowing his cover.

and Berit replied:
 
> ...It's not only the incident of the Mirror of 
> Erised; Dumbledore was also very much aware of Harry and Ron's 
> presence in Hagrid's hut when Fudge came to arrest Hagrid in CoS...

> So, this suggests quite strongly DD knew they were there. If it's 
> only a "feeling" he gets, some sort of radar, or if his eyesight 
> physically is able to penetrate the fabric of the cloak we don't 
> know, but from the "flickering of his eyes" it's safe to assume he 
> can see through invisibility cloaks.


It certainly suggests strongly that Dumbledore knew they were there, 
and knew more or less where they were standing.  But I certainly 
don't think we can assume he can see through the cloak because of 
this. 

A person wearing an invisibilty cloak still takes up space.  An 
observant person could detect the presence of a two-student sized 
invisble object by any number of clues: differences in the way dust 
behaves around it, tracks on the floor (they had after all just 
walked across the school grounds), sound of breathing, etc.  Since 
Dumbledore knew Harry and Ron were likely to visit Hagrid at this 
point, he may have been looking for these signs.  Also, Hagrid isn't 
known for his subtlety; he may have glanced toward Harry and Ron when 
first opening the door to make sure they were hidden, something that 
Dumbledore surely wouldn't have missed.

During the Mirror of Erised incident, Dumbledore never implied that 
he could see invisibility cloaks.  Ron and Harry had both removed it 
the night Dumbledore observed them, and Harry had again taken it off 
when he met Dumbledore and had the conversation. (I also believe 
Dumbledore's comment about becoming invisible was not literal, but 
I've discussed that in other posts).

-Corinth




From SuzChiles at pobox.com  Wed Mar 10 19:57:58 2004
From: SuzChiles at pobox.com (Suzanne Chiles)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 11:57:58 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Dudley Theory
In-Reply-To: <c2lt7i+as0f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <PAEKIBGMHHNDNHEGDBMMEEAOCLAA.suzchiles@pobox.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92675

Maddy says:

> That is certainly interesting! In another yahoo HP group someone
> suggested that Dudley
> would be the one to learn magic "late in life." (I believe that
> was something JKR said with
> regards the the 6th book, although I can't cite my sources. All I
> know is that it was said
> before the most recent chat.)
>
> It could possibly explain why Petunia and Vernon seem so eager to
> spoil him rotten and to
> not let him get angry. It seems as though when a wizard or witch
> gets angry they can
> sometimes let off a bit of magic by accident, like Harry has done
> a few times.

This is really interesting, as I had always wondered why the Dementors would
go after a Muggle. If Dudley is magical, it would explain that to me.

Suzanne




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Wed Mar 10 20:07:25 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 20:07:25 -0000
Subject: Malfoy/Karkaroff
In-Reply-To: <c2nobp+315d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2nsht+7j58@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92676

> Mandy here:
> I'm inclined to think that Lucius did know that Karkaroff was a 
> traitor or at least suspected that that was what Karkaroff would do 
> if pushed.  In a close knit group like the DE it's more than likely 
> that someone as smart as Malfoy, would have singled out Karakroff
> as a potential traitor within five minutes of meeting him.  Malfoy 
> is not one to be ignorant of anything that has to do with himself, 
> and Karkaroff incriminating Death Eaters was a huge risk for 
> Lucius; it would have sent him to Azkaban.  It's worth considering 
> just how much power a 26-year-old Lucius Malfoy had back at the 
> time of LV fall.  


Susan:
Mandy, something in your post really struck me, and I wonder if it's 
okay to ask you (and/or others) to go off on a little tangent?  

You believe Malfoy to be intelligent [so do I] and the kind of guy to 
have been able to peg a traitor rather quickly.  You also wonder how 
much power Malfoy would have had at the time of Voldy's downfall.  
This all makes me wonder about Lucius....  

We know that Lucius stayed true to the dark arts during Voldy's 
absence, and we know he hung onto some artifacts which he had to 
quickly get rid of when the Ministry raids began, and that he had 
Riddle's diary to slip into Ginny's cauldron.  What do you all think 
about how *loyal* he was to Voldy during those "down" years?  And how 
loyal now?  

Didn't Voldy give him a little dressing down in the graveyard for 
having not been around during the survival/rebuilding years?  And 
Malfoy said if he'd believed it was possible for Voldy to return, he 
would have come or helped or some such thing?  Is that *believable*, 
to you?  Was he just covering his butt?  Does he really believe in 
Voldy's cause or is he just frightened of him?  Does he really want 
to follow Voldy?  Or would he prefer to have the power himself?

I think Lucius is a very bad man, but I find him rather mysterious, 
too.  Is he on his own side or is he Voldy's right-hand man, ready to 
die for the cause?  What do you all think?

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Wed Mar 10 20:10:57 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 20:10:57 -0000
Subject: The Dudley Theory
In-Reply-To: <PAEKIBGMHHNDNHEGDBMMEEAOCLAA.suzchiles@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <c2nsoh+jhjv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92677

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Suzanne Chiles" 
<SuzChiles at p...> wrote:
> Maddy says:
> 
> > That is certainly interesting! In another yahoo HP group someone
> > suggested that Dudley
> > would be the one to learn magic "late in life." (I believe that
> > was something JKR said with
> > regards the the 6th book, although I can't cite my sources. All I
> > know is that it was said
> > before the most recent chat.)
> >
> > It could possibly explain why Petunia and Vernon seem so eager to
> > spoil him rotten and to
> > not let him get angry. It seems as though when a wizard or witch
> > gets angry they can
> > sometimes let off a bit of magic by accident, like Harry has done
> > a few times.
> 
> This is really interesting, as I had always wondered why the 
Dementors would
> go after a Muggle. If Dudley is magical, it would explain that to 
me.
> 
> Suzanne

Aha!  Happy day.  Mrs. Figg (apparently) saw the Dementors.  We know 
Harry and other magical people can see them for sure. Dudley did not 
see the Dementors.  In fact, he ran right at one of them trying to 
get away and only described the incident as feeling "cold, really 
cold."   OotP US pg. 31.  Therefore, he cannot be magical.  The only 
other "Dudley is a wizard" possibility is that DD took his powers in 
an agreement with Petunia as some people have said previously.  I 
can't imagine DD doing that to anyone.  And we have no canon to 
indicate that magical power could be given or taken away.  As a 
matter of fact, I would think the removal of magical power would be a 
better penalty than a life sentance in Azkaban for a lot of WW 
offenses.

Resting peacefully now, knowing Dudley cannot be magical.
Sue




From lizvega2 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 10 20:26:45 2004
From: lizvega2 at yahoo.com (lizvega2)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 20:26:45 -0000
Subject: Oh, Fudge.
Message-ID: <c2ntm5+qh8s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92678

I've seen the thread asking why/when Fudge changed his mind 
concerning LV's return between POA and GOF. I read an interesting 
essay over at Mugglenet in which the author speculates as to whether 
or not Fudge was the 'death eater who may have left me forever'. 
There's some pretty good arguments for it. It's in the Editorials 
page- If you have time, I'd suggest a quick read. 

But that's not what I necessarily think is true. My main issue is, 
of course, that there's no canon to back it up. But, speculating is 
fun. 

In POA, Fudge tells the party at the Three Broomsticks that 
he 'shudder's to think how powerful LV would become with his most 
faithful servant back in his service'-paraphrase. He's referring to 
Sirius, but we know later on that the culprit is indeed Peter. But, 
then in GOF- he knows that Sirius has escaped, and the reader 
assumes that Fudge hasn't waivered in his opinion that Sirius was 
the traitor. So, after basically predicting the outcome the previous 
year, what made him sink into denial when it came true? I think he 
was under orders to ignore Harry and DD's claim, and Dumbledore knew 
it. DD even refers to the notion that he knew Fudge wouldn't believe 
him. How did he, DD, know that Fudge wouldn't cooperate? 

I'm not saying that Fudge was a death eater, but what's interesting 
about all of this is the time frame between the beginning of the GOF-
 and LV's resurrection. He had nearly nine months, possibly more, to 
plot exactly what would happen in the grave yard scene. Not to 
mention 13 years of time in which I'm sure he was planning his 
return. He may have even anticipated that he wouldn't be entirely 
successful in killing Harry. Perhaps during the year while Crouch 
jr. was putting Harry in the right places, someone else was talking 
to Fudge. Malfoy, perhaps? Maybe Lucius was just passing the info. 
that Potter and DD would at some point make the wild claim about LV, 
and to dismiss it. Maybe Lucius was the one to plant in Fudge's mind 
that DD just wanted his job. (Regardless of the way Lucius behaved 
in the graveyard- ignorant, that is- he would've known just like 
Snape and Karkaroff that the LV was gaining power- he's got the dark 
mark too, right?) I don't know where the post is, but there's an 
excellent analysis of the graveyard scene somewhere in the archives, 
I'd suggest reading that too. 

I'm remembering something that one of the DE's said in the MOM- OOP- 
that the ministry was so conveniently ignoring the dark lord's 
return. And, with the new bit of info. we got from Jo last week, we 
know that Fudge is going to be losing his job soon. I'm just 
wondering if it's because he truly was just ignorant and proud, or 
because he was giving Malfoy time. 




From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu  Wed Mar 10 21:07:13 2004
From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 21:07:13 -0000
Subject: The Dudley Theory
In-Reply-To: <c2nsoh+jhjv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2o021+hm1e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92679

 "suehpfan" <stanleys at s...> wrote:
>> Aha!  Happy day.  Mrs. Figg (apparently) saw the Dementors.  We 
know Harry and other magical people can see them for sure. Dudley did 
not see the Dementors.  In fact, he ran right at one of them trying 
to get away and only described the incident as feeling "cold, really 
> cold."   OotP US pg. 31.  Therefore, he cannot be magical.  
-------

Not necessarily.  It could be something like the power of knowledge 
and belief (think how the Fidelius Charm hides the fact of something 
existing from plain sight) that conceals the Dementors to muggles in 
general.  Ms. Figg knowing that the cold and darkness--the *feeling* 
was liekly atrributal to Dementors and knowing the fact that 
Dementors exist, might be all one needs to *know* to *see* them.  

Arya




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Mar 10 21:07:25 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 21:07:25 -0000
Subject: "Seeing" through invisility cloaks (WAS Re: Imperio'd Member of the Order)
In-Reply-To: <c2ns06+1usm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2o02d+9sia@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92680


> and Berit replied:
>  
> > ...It's not only the incident of the Mirror of 
> > Erised; Dumbledore was also very much aware of Harry and 
Ron's  presence in Hagrid's hut when Fudge came to arrest 
Hagrid in CoS...
> 
> > So, this suggests quite strongly DD knew they were there. If 
it's  only a "feeling" he gets, some sort of radar, or if his
eyesight 
 physically is able to penetrate the fabric of the cloak we don't 
know, but from the "flickering of his eyes" it's safe to assume he 
 can see through invisibility cloaks.<<

Corinth: 
> It certainly suggests strongly that Dumbledore knew they were 
there,  and knew more or less where they were standing.  But I 
certainly don't think we can assume he can see through the 
cloak because of  this. 
> <snip alternate explanations>

 Hagrid knew where they were standing and Dumbledore is a 
Legilimens. He could have "seen" them in Hagrid's mind. The 
flicker of his eyes would let Ron and Harry know that his 
message was indeed intended for them.

Pippin




From starropal at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 10 21:28:49 2004
From: starropal at hotmail.com (Star Opal)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 15:28:49 -0600
Subject: Filk-I Think We're Ready
Message-ID: <Law9-F109Vvjvxo6AmX00000ed5@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92681

That Scar With Feeling by Star Opal; filked from Joss Whedon's "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer: Once More With Feeling".

I Think We're Ready/Harry/If We're Together
To the tune of I've Got a Theory/Bunnies/If We're Together

THE SCENE: Order of the Phoenix
After receiving orders from Dumbledore to go bring Harry to number twelve 
Grimmauld Place, the Order prepares to leave.

Lupin:
I think we're ready
There were dementors
Some rogue dementors
No something's just not right here

Moody:
I think we're ready!
There's lots of factors!
Enemies at all sides! Stay in formation!
Eyes open!

Tonks:
I think we're ready to get Harry out

All:
The time is nearly
Our orders clearly
We know what its about

Tonks:
Rid of the Dursleys
Tricked the Dursleys
Which was really easy
The Dursleys
They have left without him
Which is good
And just the plan
And sent a letter
And they're gone for now

Sirius:
I think I'm ready
To go get Harry

*Uncomfortable silence*

Kingsley:
I think we're re-

Sirius:
Harry's my godson incase nobody notices!
Think I want to just hang around and smell the roses?
And I'm going stir crazy
What with all the caution who will see me anyway?
Harry!
Harry!
I must get Harry!
...Oh come on Remus

Lupin:
I think we're ready
We will work real fast

Lupin & Moody:
Remember clearly
Orders, Sirius,
Dumbledore passed

*Excited Dedalus Diggle joins in*

Dedalus:
I think were ready
Oh Mr. Potter
Will he those times we had remember?
Like that time we shook hands together?
Leaky Cauldron
He knew me there!
Recalled the shop!
Will he still care?

All but Sirius:
In the muggle world must be secret
Disillusionment Charm will fix it
We won't just try
We'll do it right
It's do or die

Dedalus:
Hey, met him twice!

All but Sirius & Lupin:
What can't we face 		Lupin:
If we're together			What can't we face?

What in that place
Will fight the Order?		If we're together?

All but Sirius:
There's nothing we can't face

Sirius:
Just go get Harry...

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From jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net  Wed Mar 10 21:32:13 2004
From: jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net (Robert Jones)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 21:32:13 -0000
Subject: Why isn't Harry Friendlier with Hermione?
Message-ID: <c2o1gt+q63h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92682

The apparent sudden change in Ginny in OOTP that annoys some posters 
made me think of think of how little Harry really knew about Ginny 
and that made me think of how little he knows about Hermione.

In the five years they have been at school together, why has he 
never asked Hermione about her family or her life before Hogwarts or 
how she got interested in magic or what other interests she might 
have ... or anything you would ask a friend at boarding school?  I'm 
not a H/H shipper, so I'm not asking for anything romantic ? just 
one personal question would have been nice.  (Harry did grow up the 
Dursley household where the first rule was "Don't ask questions!" 
but I don't think that should apply to a friend.)

We see the story through Harry's eyes and all he knows about 
Hermione is that her parents are Muggle dentists ? not that Harry 
bothered to ask her about it, she just told him.  (From the summer 
letters, he may know where she lives, but I'm not sure how Owl Post 
works.)  The only other personal thing we know is that she is 
writing to Krum.  Contrast that with all we know about Harry's other 
best friend, Ron.

Throughout the books, Hermione seems to be getting closer to Harry 
as a friend, but Harry is just treating her as an ordinary friend.  
He is concerned with her safety of course ? like trying to save her 
in the forest and being upset with what happened to her in the 
Department of Mysteries ? but wouldn't he have been that way for any 
of his friends?

Hermione in OOTP showed that she is thinking about Harry (e.g., 
their talks about Cho) in ways unrelated to the battle with LV, but 
nothing like that is coming from Harry.  He wouldn't even tell her 
that she was just wasting time and embarrassing herself by making 
those hats and socks to free the elves that aren't working.  From 
Harry's point of view, apparently it's all about Harry.  Harry of 
course is friendly to Hermione, but he basically treats Hermione 
like "a library with legs" for school stuff and LV.

Of course, JKR might be holding back personal information on 
Hermione for some big surprise in Book 6 or 7, and we don't know 
what Hermione wants from the relationship with Harry, but right now 
I'm feeling a little sorry for her.  It's not like she has a lot of 
friends ? only Ginny (she just seems annoyed with Ron).






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 10 21:42:10 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 21:42:10 -0000
Subject: Hermione's birthday (Was: Is Hermione Older or Younger than Harry?
In-Reply-To: <c2l01b+livq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2o23i+f6hm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92683

 Potioncat:
 For all we know, she finished grade 
 school early (Or is that allowed in England?) or, she was advanced 
 enough that she simply left school early to go into Hogwarts.
 
 
 Geoff:
 It would be extremely unusual for a child to move up a year early. I 
 hvae known it happen when there was a mix-up in the age but, from the 
 information given, if Hermione's birthday was in September, then 
 under the /normal/ situation, she must have been 11 in the preceding 
 year and hence the best part of a year older that Harry.

Carol responds:
Specifically, her birthday is September 19, according to the October
19 AOL chat:

Q: When is Hermione's birthday?
JKR: Hermione's birthday is September 19th. 

http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2000/1000-livechat-aol.html

Not that her response establishes the year or Hermione's age, but at
least we do know the exact day.

Carol, who assumes that Hermione is older than the boys because that's
the way the system appears to work




From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 10 21:57:11 2004
From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (drjuliehoward)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 21:57:11 -0000
Subject: "Seeing" through invisility cloaks (WAS Re: Imperio'd Member of the Order)
In-Reply-To: <c2o02d+9sia@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2o2vn+h3mk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92684

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> 
wrote:
> 
> > and Berit replied:
> >  
> > > ...It's not only the incident of the Mirror of 
> > > Erised; Dumbledore was also very much aware of Harry and 
> Ron's  presence in Hagrid's hut when Fudge came to arrest 
> Hagrid in CoS...
> > 
> > > So, this suggests quite strongly DD knew they were there. If 
> it's  only a "feeling" he gets, some sort of radar, or if his
> eyesight 
>  physically is able to penetrate the fabric of the cloak we don't 
> know, but from the "flickering of his eyes" it's safe to assume he 
>  can see through invisibility cloaks.<<
> 
>
Or, as some have speculated, DD has some demiguise in his heritage.




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 10 22:03:04 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 22:03:04 -0000
Subject: JKR Chat - Narcissa Malfoy. And just how long will Lucius be in Azkaban?
In-Reply-To: <c2l44l+qc5g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2o3ao+b8dq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92685

Mandy wrote: 
<snip> JKR answered just one question about Narcissa Malfoy, very
directly, during the chat: <snip> It did get me wondering about
Lucius.  Just how long will he be in prison for?  If his wife is about
to step into the limelight, or at least a little light, for a while,
it seems to indicate that he may be in prison for longer that I had
thought.  Of course we could just end up with a brief glimpse of
Narcissa before she disaperates back to Malfoy Mansion, but I do hope
not.  As much as I enjoy Lucius' antics, I would like to spend some
time with Narcissa and find out whom she is, and what is she really
all about?  Especially now her sister has resurfaced to terrorize the
WW.  Who better to know Bellatrix's Achilles heel than her own sister?

Carol:
Or who better to aid and abet sister Bellatrix, who is now a wanted
fugitive as their cousin Sirius was earlier? I don't trust Narcissa,
given that she's Kreacher's second favorite Black relative and that
she shared the information he gave her with Lucius. She's also
obviously an anti-Muggle and Muggle-born snob, given her behavior at
the World Quidditch Cup. I wouldn't be surprised if she was baiting
the Roberts family with Lucius. After all, she attended the match, but
she wasn't with Draco in the forest. Where was she, then, if not with
Lucius?

I do think we'll see more of Narcissa, but I very much doubt that
she's a secret good guy. (Maybe she's doing something with those
poisons and other Dark artifacts hidden under the floorboards of the
Malfoy manor.)

Carol




From jennyrose18 at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 10 20:51:26 2004
From: jennyrose18 at hotmail.com (jeneric182001)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 20:51:26 -0000
Subject: Malfoy/Karkaroff
In-Reply-To: <c2ngoq+e8ej@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2nv4e+q0mm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92686

Eloise wrote:
 
> > If Karkaroff was released from prison for 
> > incriminating the other DE's (There's no mention of Lucius at 
> > Karkaroff's hearing) why would Lucius want to send his son 
to a 
> > traitor for wizard training? Even LV knows in the graveyard 
scene 
> in 
> > GOF that Lucius hasn't renounced the 'old' ways. 
> 
> It's not clear how public this hearing was or whether the 
proceedings 
> were publicised beyond those present in the chamber at the 
time.
-snip-
> 
> So perhaps Lucius simply did not know that Karkaroff was a 
> traitor.


Although we don't know exactly how much publicity there was, I 
seem to remember a young version of Rita Skeeter being there. 
(I don't have the books with me here so I could be remembering 
this wrong, but I think I'm right.) 

It's not stated that she was definitely there covering the trials as
a reporter, so we don't know for sure anything was ever published 
about it, in the Daily Prophet or any other publication. But just the 
mere fact of her presence, coupled with what we know about her 
personality, makes it probably safe to assume that anything Rita 
Skeeter knows about is not going to be secret for long.

--Jen






From gbannister10 at aol.com  Wed Mar 10 22:17:57 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 22:17:57 -0000
Subject: "Seeing" through invisility cloaks (WAS Re: Imperio'd Member of the Order)
In-Reply-To: <c2o2vn+h3mk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2o46l+h0dt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92687

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "drjuliehoward" 
<drjuliehoward at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> 
> wrote:

Berit:
> > > > ...It's not only the incident of the Mirror of 
> > > > Erised; Dumbledore was also very much aware of Harry and 
> > Ron's  presence in Hagrid's hut when Fudge came to arrest 
> > Hagrid in CoS...
> > > 
> > > > So, this suggests quite strongly DD knew they were there. If 
> > it's  only a "feeling" he gets, some sort of radar, or if his
> > eyesight 
> >  physically is able to penetrate the fabric of the cloak we don't 
> > know, but from the "flickering of his eyes" it's safe to assume 
he 
> >  can see through invisibility cloaks.<<
 
Pippin:
> Or, as some have speculated, DD has some demiguise in his heritage.

Geoff:
Has JKR been influenced by JRRT? Perhaps Dumbledore is related to Tom 
Bombadil. He could put on the Ring and not disappear and could see 
Frodo when he was wearing the Ring and no one else could?




From nymphadora1 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 10 21:10:02 2004
From: nymphadora1 at yahoo.com (nymphadora1)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 21:10:02 -0000
Subject: LV as Blofeld/Dr Evil?
Message-ID: <c2o07a+rkmi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92688

      After listening to Goblet of Fire for the nth time, something struck me as 
rather odd. After having Harry tied to the gravestone to bleed him, and then 
being resurrected, why did Voldie free him and give him his wand back so he 
could duel with him? This strikes me as being totally out of character for 
you-know-who. He's tried to kill Harry three times, once as a baby when he 
should have been totally defenseless, and failed. Why would LV give Harry 
the opportunity to fight back? What a berk!
        It reminds me of the scenes in every James Bond movie (much parodied 
by Austin Powers), where the bad guy has the opportunity to just shoot Bond 
in the head and have done with it, but instead puts him in a ridiculously 
convoluted situation to kill him. Inevitably Bond escapes and comes back to 
kill the bad guy. (I guess Voldie never went to the movies much or he would 
know this.) Is LV going soft in his old age? Why didn't he just AK him when he 
was still tied to the gravestone? I know that would have meant the end of the 
books, so JKR had to get Harry out of the situation somehow, but surely she 
could have thought of something in keeping with LV's character (i.e. totally 
ruthless and cold-blooded. Hmmm, cold-blooded like a snake, whereas Harry 
is warm-blooded, interesting) unless him giving Harry a chance is an 
important plot point, which obviously I think it is!
         Maybe its something to do with being resurrected using Harry's blood: 
Harry's sense of fairness could be part of him now. I suspect this is what will 
ultimately destroy the Dark Lord, after all, would not Harry's blood count as 
being part of Harry? This would fit the prophecy without Harry having to 
actually kill him, which always struck me as being an awkward thing for Harry 
to have to do without using the AK curse. 
Nymph (who would love to see Harry Potter and Austin Powers team up to rid 
the world of evil).





From paula at jefftrout.com  Wed Mar 10 22:13:41 2004
From: paula at jefftrout.com (paulaboo1013)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 22:13:41 -0000
Subject: The Dudley Theory
In-Reply-To: <c2lt7i+as0f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2o3ul+t4ug@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92689

 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, tyler maroney <tmar78 at y...> 
> That is certainly interesting! In another yahoo HP group someone
suggested that Dudley 
> would be the one to learn magic "late in life." (I believe that was
something JKR said with 
> regards the the 6th book, although I can't cite my sources. All I
know is that it was said 
> before the most recent chat.)

the actual quote is :

Barnes and Noble Interview

March 1999 

(http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/1999/0399-barnesandnoble.html)

Question: Will there be, or have there been, any "late blooming"
students in the school who come into their magic potential as adults,
rather than as children? By the way, I loved meeting you, and hearing
you speak, when you came to Anderson's in Naperville. I can hardly
wait until you tour again.

Answer: Ahhh! I loved the event at Anderson's. It was one of my
favorites. That is completely true. No, is the answer. In my books,
magic almost always shows itself in a person before age 11; however,
there is a character who does manage in desperate circumstances to do
magic quite late in life, but that is very rare in the world I am
writing about. 

I put the emphasis on _quite_ late in life.  16 doesn't seem to fit
that time frame.  I lean more towards Petunia to be the late bloomer,
in an attempt to save Dudley in some way.

I also theorize that the reason JKR dislikes Vernon the most is
because he will do something horrible when he finds out that he's
married to a *gasp* witch.

just a theory.

Paula





From gbannister10 at aol.com  Wed Mar 10 22:34:44 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 22:34:44 -0000
Subject: "Seeing" through invisility cloaks (WAS Re: Imperio'd Member of the Order)
In-Reply-To: <c2o2vn+h3mk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2o564+4obj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92690

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "drjuliehoward" 
<drjuliehoward at y...> wrote:

Berit:
> > > > ...It's not only the incident of the Mirror of 
> > > > Erised; Dumbledore was also very much aware of Harry and 
> > Ron's  presence in Hagrid's hut when Fudge came to arrest 
> > Hagrid in CoS...
> > > 
> > > > So, this suggests quite strongly DD knew they were there. If 
> > it's  only a "feeling" he gets, some sort of radar, or if his
> > eyesight 
> >  physically is able to penetrate the fabric of the cloak we don't 
> > know, but from the "flickering of his eyes" it's safe to assume 
he 
> >  can see through invisibility cloaks.<<

Julie:
> Or, as some have speculated, DD has some demiguise in his heritage.

Geoff:
Rita Skeeter was not at the Karkaroff trial.

"And then, the dungeon returned. Harry was sitting in a different 
seat; still on the highest bench but now to the left side of 
Mr.Crouch. The atmosphere seemed quite different; relaxed, even 
cheerful. The witches and wizards all around the walls were talking 
to each other almost as though they were at some sort of sporting 
event. A witch halfway up the rows of benches opposite caught Harry's 
eye. She had short blond hair, was wearing magenta robes and was 
sucking the end of an acid-green quill. It was, unmistakeably, a 
younger Rita Skeeter. Harry looked around; Dumbledore was sitting 
beside him again, wearing different robes. Mr.Crouch looked tireder 
and somehow fiercer, gaunter
 Harry understood. It was a different 
memory, adifferent day
. A different trial.

The door in the corner opened and Ludo Bagman walked into the room."

(GOF "The Pensieve" pp.513-514 UK edition)





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 10 22:49:22 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 22:49:22 -0000
Subject: Dudley's development
In-Reply-To: <c2l5fj+vmk0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2o61i+l6me@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92691

> Geoff wrote:
<snip> 
> > We are told that:
 
"Mr.Dursley..... tried to kiss Dudley goodbye but missed because 
Dudley was now having a tantrum and throwing his cereal at the 
walls." <snip>
and when Professor McGonagall objects to Harry being brought to 
the Dursleys, she remarks.....
"And they've got this son - I saw him kicking his mother all the 
way up the street, screaming for sweets."

I don't recall either of my sons being strong enough to throw 
cereal at the walls when they were sixteen months; in a temper, 
they might push the dish off the high chair or spit the cereal out.  
Again, a child of this age with the ability to walk up the street 
and kick Mum and also scream recognisably and specifically for 
sweets must be a fast developer, don't you think?
 
Susan:
LOL!  I never thought of Dudley as a fast developer in 
*anything*...but maybe in this case it's due to his motivation for 
FOOD.  Both instances you cite involve food.  Perhaps Dudders wanted 
Cap'n Crunch or Sugar Bombs instead of unsweetened oatmeal or 
something? :-)
 
Siriusly Snapey Susan

Carol:
As I indicated in another post (which cited these same examples
without the quotes), I think this evidence primarily indicates that
Dudley was a spoiled brat before Harry arrived on the Dursleys'
doorstep. IOW, Petunia's indulgence of Dudley has nothing to do with
her mistreatment of Harry (whom she fears will be a bad influence on
her already obnoxious toddler). Also McGonagall sees "these people" as
being as different as possible from Dumbledore and herself, more
evidence IMO that Petunia is pure Muggle despite her sister's being a
witch.

Yes, indeed, Dudders had a precocious appetite for food and sweets,
but he also knew very early that his mother couldn't bear to see her
precious darling throw a tantrum. Babies, even apparent morons like
Dudley, sense weakness in the adults who take care of them, and any
parent who gives in to a temper tantrum is asking for trouble--much
more trouble than the temporary loss of the child's "love" that
results from not giving him his way. (As for overfeeding him and
indulging his appetite for sweets, if this were a realistic novel,
Dudley would be heading toward early-onset adult diabetes.) The
spoiling is mostly Petunia's diong, but Vernon does nothing to stop
her, and he later encourages Dudley to be what he considers manly
(i.e,. a bully), so it's his fault, too.

In other words, I don't see precocity here, much less a potentially
magical Dudley. I see the consequences of bad parenting. Imagine what
Harry would have been like if they'd treated him in the same way!

Carol




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 10 23:13:39 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 23:13:39 -0000
Subject: Dudley's worst memory (Was: What's in it for the Dursleys?)
In-Reply-To: <c2l7sb+51k8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2o7f3+j1tj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92692

Sue:
> <snip> I wonder 
> again what Dudley's worst memory was?  Perhaps someone tried to get 
> to him before.  This could be Dudley's worst Summer ever if they all 
> have to spend it cooped up inside #4 so they don't get slaudered by 
> the approaching DE's <snip>


Carol:
At a guess, Dudley's worst memory would be falling through the glass
into the snake enclosure in CoS. Or how about the ton tongue toffee
and his mother pulling on his tongue to try to save him in PoA? Either
of those incidents would seem pretty terrible from pampered Dudley's
perspective.

Carol




From nkafkafi at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 10 23:36:36 2004
From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 23:36:36 -0000
Subject: Dudley's worst memory (Was: What's in it for the Dursleys?)
In-Reply-To: <c2o7f3+j1tj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2o8q4+f779@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92693

> Sue:
> > <snip> I wonder 
> > again what Dudley's worst memory was?  Perhaps someone tried to 
get 
> > to him before.  This could be Dudley's worst Summer ever if they 
all 
> > have to spend it cooped up inside #4 so they don't get slaudered 
by 
> > the approaching DE's <snip>
> 
> 
> Carol:
> At a guess, Dudley's worst memory would be falling through the glass
> into the snake enclosure in CoS. Or how about the ton tongue toffee
> and his mother pulling on his tongue to try to save him in PoA? 
Either
> of those incidents would seem pretty terrible from pampered Dudley's
> perspective.
> 

Neri:
What about a bunch of doctors and nurses taking detailed pictures of 
his tail for a medical journal? This could be a contender.




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 10 23:36:34 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 23:36:34 -0000
Subject: Dudley's development
In-Reply-To: <c2lhda+77n1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2o8q2+cn6m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92694

> Geoff:
> Looking at one or two comments made by various posters, folks, 
> this /is/ Mrs.Petunia Dursley, wife of the successful director of an 
> engineering company. She would not be carrying her child down the 
> street. (We were fairly ordinary folk and when our flock were at that 
> age and we were out, they were in pushchairs - too darned heavy to 
> carry for any length of time). Also, I can't see Petunia carrying 
> little Dudley (little did I say?) and a bag of sweets at the same 
> time; it wouldn't be quite the right thing in Privet Drive, now would 
> it?...... Can I remind you of Fiona Shaw's analysis of the Dursleys 
> which I quoted in message 92491?
> 
> If he was in a pushchair, then he wouldn't be in a position to kick 
> Mum.
> 
> Also, on the question of speaking, by about 16 months, our children 
> were possessed of a very small vocabulary, and many words would be 
> quite indistinct.
> 
> I still think there's something odd about young DD.



Carol: A sixteen-month-old can walk and could probably kick, and he
can certainly scream "Canny, canny, canny!" (for "Candy, candy,
candy!") or whatever the equivalent baby term for "sweets" is in
British baby talk. One repeated word is all that's needed here. I
really, really think we're dealing with a spoiled brat and not a
precocious little tyke here.

Carol




From belijako at online.no  Wed Mar 10 23:49:32 2004
From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 23:49:32 -0000
Subject: Chat - shorter summer at Dursleys
In-Reply-To: <c2nq62+j8tq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2o9ic+vqrt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92695

Sue wrote:

Loving the idea of a total shift in power on Privet.

Berit replies:

Interesting thought :-) Maybe it is already starting to happen at the 
end of OoP... Check out the quotes below. There's quite a change in 
who takes charge in the ending scenes in GoF and OoP; earlier Harry 
has been trailing along in the Dursley's wake; at the end of OoP it 
is the other way around. Might just be a coincidence, but it might 
also be a sign of a shift in power...

GoF:
"Harry ..., turned to Uncle Vernon, and *followed* him silently from 
the station."

OoP:
"He smiled, raised a hand in farewell, turned around and *led* the 
way out of the station towards the sunlit street, Uncle Vernon, Aunt 
Petunia and Dudley hurrying along in his wake."

Berit
http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 11 00:00:10 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 00:00:10 -0000
Subject: Need Quote: Help with Sirius's Motorcyle - More
In-Reply-To: <c2lhk7+iqsm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2oa6a+q77k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92696

bboy_mn:
 
I took the UK version, '...get this bike away...' as a Brit-Speak
truncation of that statement '...best get this bike PUT away...'
implying that he is going to store it in some fashion. 
 
If the statement is taken in a very general fashion, he is saying, 'I
have to do something about this bike'.  In a sense, saying that his
night isn't over until he has somehow resolved his possession of the
bike, whether that be by returning it, abandoning it, ditching it, or
storing it, it has to be deal with before he can end his night.

The US edition has taken this general statement or Hagrid's implied
statement that he is simply going to store the bike (put it away), and
shifted it to specifically returning it to Sirius.
 
This is very much like that changing of the words 'one more curse' to
'one more death' in GoF. It does make some logical sense, and the
editor may have thought he was clearing up some vagueness, but any of
these details could become very important in future books. 
<snip>

Carol:
But all versions (US, UK, and electronic) say that the bike was
"lent," which certainly implies that "get[ting] this bike away" means
returning it. "Lent" in itself contradicts the later statement in PoA
that Sirius *gave* it to him.

Also, if you look at earlier posts, Neri said that his *electronic*
version had "get this bike away" but Shaun Hately's Bloomsbury
paperback (or hardback?) has the same wording as the US edition: "I'll
be takin' Sirius his bike back."

Here's the relevant portion of the earlier post (92383), to which I
replied in 92502:

>>Neri:
<snip> My electronic version of PS (from Bloomsbery, 1997) has in the
end of chapter 1:
"Yeah," said Hagrid in a very muffled voice. "I'd best get this
bike away. G'night, Professor McGonagall ? Professor Dumbledore, sir."<<
>
>
>Shaun Hately:
My Bloomsbury has: "Yeah," said Hagrid in a very muffled
voice. "I'll be takin' Sirius his bike back. G'night, Professor
McGonagall ? Professor Dumbledore, sir."
Interestingly it doesn't have the year it was printed listed
anywhere - it must be after 2000 because it has that as a Trademark
date - but no actualy date of publication besides the First
Published 1997.< 


So, again, I think it's just the electronic version that has "get this
bike away" and that "I'll be giving Sirius his bike back" (pure
Hagrid-speak) is the authentic version. I know that being in the
American edition doesn't authenticate it, but Shaun says it's in his
Bloomsbury as well. If so, it's the preferred, and possibly the
original, version.

Carol




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 11 00:11:55 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 00:11:55 -0000
Subject: Dudley's development
In-Reply-To: <c2lkue+ggfk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2oasb+hn82@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92697

Geoff:
Also, I can't see Petunia 
> > carrying little Dudley (little did I say?) and a bag of sweets at 
> > the same time; it wouldn't be quite the right thing in Privet 
> > Drive, now would it? <snip>
> > If he was in a pushchair, then he wouldn't be in a position to 
> > kick Mum. <snip> 
> > Also, on the question of speaking, by about 16 months, our 
> > children were possessed of a very small vocabulary, and many words 
> > would be quite indistinct. <snip>

> Susan:
> I don't agree, Geoff.  I truly believe that either JKR was just 
> having a little fun and not worrying *too much* about gross motor 
> skill development in a 16-month-old, or perhaps Petunia was just 
> taking Dudders down the street a couple of houses to see a 
> neighbor.  
<snip>
> And if we're going to get into that, both my kids had fairly large 
> [100 words or more] vocabularies at 16 months.  As someone else 
> noted, and as I said rather jokingly, kids learn the words which 
> mean the most to them first.  For my daughter, it was "kitty" 
> first.  For someone like Dudley, I can imagine its having 
> been "treat!" or "candy!" or "GIMME!" or some such thing.  I mean, 
> look at the kid when we first meet him at age 11, pitching a fit 
> over the number of his b'day gifts, demanding more, and also being 
> grossly overweight.  I think Dudders likely learned to express his 
> demands early on...and that that was all JKR was doing in sharing 
> these episodes with us.  He was a BRAT who screamed at his parents 
> to get what he wanted. <snip>


I agree with Susan's excellent post. I just want to add that we're
informed in the same chapter that Dudley has just learned a new word,
"Won't!" (SS Am. ed., p. 6). I'd say the little brat was not at all
precocious in his vocabulary (or his ability to kick his mother in the
ankle), just perfectly capable of expressing his selfish desires and
abusing his mother from an early age.

Carol




From nkafkafi at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 11 00:21:59 2004
From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 00:21:59 -0000
Subject: Need Quote: Help with Sirius's Motorcyle - More
In-Reply-To: <c2oa6a+q77k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2obf7+dsni@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92698

<justcarol67 at y...> wrote:
> 
> So, again, I think it's just the electronic version that has "get 
this
> bike away" and that "I'll be giving Sirius his bike back" (pure
> Hagrid-speak) is the authentic version. I know that being in the
> American edition doesn't authenticate it, but Shaun says it's in his
> Bloomsbury as well. If so, it's the preferred, and possibly the
> original, version.

Neri:
According to Berit (#92582) her Bloomsbury also has "get this bike 
away". I suspect that Shaun Hately was right: this version appears 
only in the first (1997) Bloomsbury edition, and was later corrected 
to include Sirius' name. Anyone with a 1997 UK edition?
 




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 11 00:38:36 2004
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 00:38:36 -0000
Subject: the Elves - A  History & Reference
In-Reply-To: <c2n8qg+nfik@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2ocec+h6qj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92699

As long as we are on the subject of Elves and house-elves I thought I
would add some link to their history and background.

To my amazement, JKRowling's House-elves have become so significant
that they warranted an whole new entry into the Wikipedia.

Note: 
Wikipedia is a wiki-based free content encyclopedia which includes
almanac-like and gazetteer-like information. Free means free to use,
free to edit, and free to copy and redistribute. Wikipedia is
multilingual, and an open-content, collaboratively developed creation,
managed and operated by the non-profit Wikimedia Foundation.

The Wikipedia is a general enclyclopedia and not related to Wicca.

The House-elf- (Rowling/HarryPotter)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House-elf

The Brownie Elf -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brownie_(elf)
A brownie is a legendary kind of elf popular in folklore around
England and Scotland. He is the British counterpart of the
Scandinavian /tomte/ and the Russian /domovoi/.

The Tomte- (Finnish vesrion - Haltari)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomte
A tomte or nisse (brownie) is a mythical creature of Scandinavian
folklore, specifically part of a group of creatures called vetter
(elf), common in rural areas. There were two varieties of nisse or
tomte, one type that resided in the house (cf. the Russian domovoi)
and one that resided in the barn. He would take care of the homestead,
crops, house, and people while the human inhabitants slept.

The Puck-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puck
Puck is a mischievous pre-Christian nature spirit, a "woodwose" in the
archetype of the Horned God. The pagan trickster was reimagined in Old
English puca (cf. Old Norse puki "devil") as a kind of half-tamed
woodland sprite...

Hobgoblin (Fairy)-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobgoblin_(fairy)
Hobgoblin is a term typically applied in folktales to a friendly or
amusing goblin. 

Robin Goodfellow-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Goodfellow
Robin Goodfellow in English folklore is a euphemistic personification
of a half-tamed, troublesome elf or hob-goblin, a prankster who is the
domesticated aspect of Puck.

Russian Domovoi- 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domovoi
Domovoi is the Russian spirit of the homestead,...  He is not
considered a malicious presence, and might help with house chores or
even be treated as an unseen part of the family ...

Polish Domowije-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domowije
Domowije is the grandfather house spirit. He is responsible for
maintaining peace and order in the household.

Elf (General History)-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elf
Elves are mythical creatures of Germanic mythology often now pictured
in folktales in diminished form as small people with mischievous
personalities.

We can see from these reference that many cultures included their own
variations of the domesticated Elf.

Just thought you might like to know.

bboy_mn






From hickengruendler at yahoo.de  Thu Mar 11 01:09:30 2004
From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 01:09:30 -0000
Subject: Dudley's worst memory (Was: What's in it for the Dursleys?)
In-Reply-To: <c2o8q4+f779@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2oe8a+10e0g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92700

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" <nkafkafi at y...> 
wrote:
 
> > Carol:
> > At a guess, Dudley's worst memory would be falling through the 
glass
> > into the snake enclosure in CoS. Or how about the ton tongue 
toffee
> > and his mother pulling on his tongue to try to save him in PoA? 
> Either
> > of those incidents would seem pretty terrible from pampered 
Dudley's
> > perspective.
> > 
> 
> Neri:
> What about a bunch of doctors and nurses taking detailed pictures 
of 
> his tail for a medical journal? This could be a contender.

Hickengruendler:

I don't think it's any of these. For two reasons:

1.) JKR would have told us. In the Chat she said, that we'll find 
out. If it were, for example the Ton-Tongue Toffee, she could have 
told us. But it must be something Harry and the reader don't know 
about.

2.) Dudley would have told his parents. But again, he didn't. That's 
a clear hint, IMO, that it's something Vernon and Petunia also don't 
know about.

You know, I am really, really interested in this plot point. Dudley's 
terrible secret. *g*

Hickengruendler




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 11 01:13:07 2004
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 01:13:07 -0000
Subject: the Elves - A  History & Reference - LINK ERRORS
In-Reply-To: <c2ocec+h6qj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2oef3+d76v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92701

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:

> The Brownie Elf -
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brownie_(elf)

> 
> bboy_mn

bboy_mn:

Thanks to YahooMort, the links that contain an Underbar '_' character
won't work properly. You'll have to cut and paste them into the
Address Bar of your browser.

Sorry.

bboy_mn




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 11 01:48:37 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 01:48:37 -0000
Subject: Malfoy/Karkaroff
In-Reply-To: <c2nv4e+q0mm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2oghl+unfd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92702

Eloise wrote:
If Karkaroff was released from prison for incriminating the other DE's
(There's no mention of Lucius at Karkaroff's hearing) why would Lucius
want to send his son to a traitor for wizard training? Even LV knows
in the graveyard scene in GOF that Lucius hasn't renounced the 'old'
ways. 
It's not clear how public this hearing was or whether the 
> proceedings were publicised beyond those present in the chamber at
the time.
<snip> So perhaps Lucius simply did not know that Karkaroff was a 
traitor.

Jen responded: 
Although we don't know exactly how much publicity there was, I 
seem to remember a young version of Rita Skeeter being there. 
(I don't have the books with me here so I could be remembering 
this wrong, but I think I'm right.)
 
It's not stated that she was definitely there covering the trials as
a reporter, so we don't know for sure anything was ever published 
about it, in the Daily Prophet or any other publication. But just the 
mere fact of her presence, coupled with what we know about her 
personality, makes it probably safe to assume that anything Rita 
Skeeter knows about is not going to be secret for long.


Carol:
It's Ludo Bagman's trial (or hearing) at which Rita Skeeter is
mentioned as being present, complete with acid-green quill (GoF, Am.
ed., p. 591). I can understand her being there in hopes of disgracing
a sports hero. And, remember, she says (in OoP) that she could tell
Hermione things about Ludo Bagman that would make her hair curl. I
think if she'd suspected that Karkaroff was or had been a Death Eater,
she'd have gone after him in GoF. Anything for a story, and that would
make a scandalous one. I also think that Harry would have noticed her
presence if she'd been there for Karkaroff's testimony against his
"friends" or the sentencing of Barty Jr. and the Lestranges. Those
seemed like more serious occasions than Bagman's hearing, though,
probably not open to the wizarding public or reporters. 

Since Draco refers to Karkaroff as his father's friend and talks about
having almost been sent to Durmstrang, it seems unlikely that Lucius
knows about Karkaroff's betrayal. OTOH, since he got off scot-free,
maybe he doesn't care who else Karkaroff betrayed. Given Lucius's
self-serving nature, though, I'd say the first possibility is more
likely. 

Carol




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 11 02:06:33 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 02:06:33 -0000
Subject: The Dudley Theory
In-Reply-To: <c2o3ul+t4ug@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2ohj9+bh4e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92703

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "paulaboo1013" <paula at j...> wrote:
>  --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, tyler maroney <tmar78 at y...> 
> > That is certainly interesting! In another yahoo HP group someone
> suggested that Dudley 
> > would be the one to learn magic "late in life." (I believe that was
> something JKR said with 
> > regards the the 6th book, although I can't cite my sources. All I
> know is that it was said 
> > before the most recent chat.)
> 
> the actual quote is :
> 
> Barnes and Noble Interview
> 
> March 1999 
> 
>
(http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/1999/0399-barnesandnoble.html)
> 
> Question: Will there be, or have there been, any "late blooming"
> students in the school who come into their magic potential as adults,
> rather than as children? By the way, I loved meeting you, and hearing
> you speak, when you came to Anderson's in Naperville. I can hardly
> wait until you tour again.
> 
> Answer: Ahhh! I loved the event at Anderson's. It was one of my
> favorites. That is completely true. No, is the answer. In my books,
> magic almost always shows itself in a person before age 11; however,
> there is a character who does manage in desperate circumstances to do
> magic quite late in life, but that is very rare in the world I am
> writing about. 
> 
> I put the emphasis on _quite_ late in life.  16 doesn't seem to fit
> that time frame.  I lean more towards Petunia to be the late bloomer,
> in an attempt to save Dudley in some way.
> 
> I also theorize that the reason JKR dislikes Vernon the most is
> because he will do something horrible when he finds out that he's
> married to a *gasp* witch.
> 
> just a theory.
> 
> Paula


Petunia is about forty or thereabouts, not exactly "late in life." The
phrase fits Mrs. Figg much better, and I think seeing Dementors is
only the beginning of what she'll find she's able to do. Also JKR said
in another interview that she doesn't have much hope for the
redemption of Petunia or Vernon, though she feels sorry for Dudley,
whom she sees as abused. So Dudley, though he can't be the person who
does magic "late in life" (even at seventeen, which he'll be in Book
Seven), there may be hope that he'll repent his bullying of Harry.

http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2000/1100-garcia-dateline-1.html

Interestingly, she says that we should "keep an eye on Dudley," which
is the same thing she says about Snape. Is that a code phrase for
"this person will be redeemed"? Or how about Dudley sacrificing his
life to save Harry, as many listees have predicted for Snape?

Here's the quote:

"A question also surfaced surrounding Harry Potter's non-magical
relatives, the Muggles who have always tortured or mistreated Harry,
because of their fear of magic. For revenge, Harry has magically
tortured his cousin Dudley. `I like torturing them,` said Rowling.
`You should keep an eye on Dudley. It's probably too late for Aunt
Petunia and Uncle Vernon. I feel sorry for Dudley. I might joke about
him, but I feel truly sorry for him because I see him as just as
abused as Harry. Though, in possibly a less obvious way. What they are
doing to him is inept, really. I think children recognize that. Poor
Dudley. He's not being prepared for the world at all, in any
reasonable or compassionate way, so I feel sorry for him. But there's
something funny [comic] about him, also. The pig's tail was
irresistible.`"

There we are: Poor Dudley, abuse victim and possible candidate for
redemption. Not a hint, though, of magical ability on the part of any
Dursley.

Carol, who will believe the narrator's repeated assertions that all
three Dursleys are Muggles till she's proven wrong by Book Six or Seven




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 11 02:19:01 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 02:19:01 -0000
Subject: Need Quote: Help with Sirius's Motorcyle - More
In-Reply-To: <c2obf7+dsni@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2oial+j1o9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92704

Carol:
<snipped> So, again, I think it's just the electronic version that has
"get this bike away" and that "I'll be giving Sirius his bike back"
(pure Hagrid-speak) is the authentic version. I know that being in the
American edition doesn't authenticate it, but Shaun says it's in his
Bloomsbury as well. If so, it's the preferred, and possibly the
original, version.
 
Neri:
According to Berit (#92582) her Bloomsbury also has "get this bike 
away". I suspect that Shaun Hately was right: this version appears 
only in the first (1997) Bloomsbury edition, and was later corrected 
to include Sirius' name. Anyone with a 1997 UK edition?


Carol again:
If it's a correction, it's the preferred version, right? Maybe the
U.K. editor changed it in 1997 but JKR changed it back in later
printings? It seems odd for the correct version to appear *first* in
the American edition, and as I said, I don't think an American editor
would have changed "get this bike away" to "giv[e] Sirius his bike
back." "Sirius his" for "Sirius's" is what we poor deluded Americans
call a Briticism.

Carol, who is still confused but pretty sure that JKR *wanted*
Sirius's name to be mentioned twice so we'd remember it




From BrwNeil at aol.com  Thu Mar 11 02:55:20 2004
From: BrwNeil at aol.com (BrwNeil at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 21:55:20 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Harry and Hermione together per JKR chat?
Message-ID: <f2.37eb304b.2d812f18@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92705

In a message dated 3/9/2004 11:12:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
jmmears at comcast.net writes:

I absolutely agree that PS/SS Hermione had the potential to become 
another Percy, particularly in terms of being unable to relate to 
her peer-group and her intense need for approval from authority 
figures.  Where I'm afraid I disagree is that simply knowing Harry 
has been the life-transforming event that saved her from ending up a 
Ravenclaw prig.  I don't think that Harry and Hermione would have 
actually had a friendship without Ron's involvement, and that like 
Harry, spending time with the entire Weasley family (as well as her 
adventures with both Harry and Ron) has been the catalyst for her 
growth as a more well-rounded human being.
It is amazing how people can read the same book and get totally different 
views on a subject.  In my opinion Harry had much more to do with Hermione 
becoming a friend of his and Ron than Ron did.  Harry was the one to think of 
Hermione and go off to find her when the troll was in the castle.  That started the 
friendship.

If it hadn't been for Harry, I doubt very much that Ron and Hermione would 
even be on speaking terms.  He was the mutual friend that kept bringing them 
back together after numerous fights.  The way the two fight, it seems that their 
friendship with Harry is the only thing they have in common.

Neil


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 11 03:09:26 2004
From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 03:09:26 -0000
Subject: Filk: Tommy Riddle Chamber
Message-ID: <c2ol96+npo9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92706

Song #5 from my CoS musical, A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the 
Chamber (I'm using Dobby as my narrator, hence his uncanonical 
appearance here)

Tommy Riddle Chamber (CoS, Chap. 17) 

To the tune of Pretty Little Picture, from Sondheim's A Funny Thing 
Happened on the Way to the Forum 

Dedicated to Eustace Scrubb

A brief MIDI can be heard at:

http://www.bway2.com/tracks/forum/

THE SCENE: The Chamber of Secrets. HARRY discovers GINNY's 
whereabouts and learns the truth about TOM RIDDLE and the Heir of 
Slytherin.

DOBBY
In the Chamber stone pillars rise
Through an odd, greenish gloom
On the floor Ginny Weasley lies,
Tommy Riddle Chamber?
Whom  . .
Is the boy with the edges blurred
Leaning now on a shaft?
Harry can't get from Gin a word
Tommy tells him what has occurred

TOMMY
Your poor Ginny is nearly dead.

HARRY
And then he laughed,

TOMMY
My book she read 
And through my craft all the blame she's incurred
That lass will not live, through my lies she was lured.

HARRY & DOBBY
It's a Tommy Riddle Chamber,
Oh my! Tommy Riddle Chamber,

RIDDLE
Too true! Tommy Riddle Chamber
Which I, Tom Marvolo Riddle show to you!

DOBBY
Ginny transformed to Riddle's slave
Through that magical book
But it's Harry he truly craves
Tommy rid of Harry?
Look. . .

RIDDLE
Tell me, Harry, I need to know:
Twice you met the Dark Lord
You've small talent and seem quite slow
Yet you warded off his worst blow

HARRY 
Why do you care how I escaped?
He's afterwards
.

(RIDDLE forms the words Tom Marvolo Riddle with his wand, and begins 
to re-arrange the letters to spell I Am Lord Voldemort)

RIDDLE
Letters reshape
See me record from "Tom" and "Marvolo"
The "M" and the "L" and the "V" and the "O"
And you'll find I'm the fiend who's your favorite foe
.

DOBBY, RIDDLE & HARRY
It's the Dark Lord Voldy Chamber, the heir,
As a giant serpent appears

HARRY
Think I better say a quick prayer
Aid from Dumbledore soon appears!

RIDDLE
Don't worry
Keep talking

HARRY:
I think I
Hear Fawkes sing



DOBBY
In the Chamber a Phoenix flies
Brave and vibrant and pure,
With a song that all heroes prize
Can he ram the Chamber?
Sure, 

RIDDLE
>From the serpent your hero flees
Then the Phoenix, it soared.

DOBBY
Soon both basilisk eyes it seized
Bought the serpent down to its knees
Harry clamps the hat on his head
And finds a blade with rubies red
That's Godric's sword

RIDDLE
But my serpent rears
Its bite at the boy leaves him bound for the bier 

DOBBY & RIDDLE
Till the tone of a twinkling trickle-down tear . . .

HARRY (realizing that he's been healed by FAWKES)
Ahhh!!

DOBBY & FAWKES
All of Harry Potter's anguish will cease, 
And our Riddle villain recess,
When he sticks the fang by caprice
Into Riddle's Diary 

Yes! Yes!
Tommy Riddle now must cease

(After RIDDLE is dispatched, GINNY awakens)

HARRY, GINNY, DOBBY & FAWKES
Tommy Riddle now must cease

Tommy Riddle Chamber!

   -	CMC 

HARRY POTTER FILKS 
http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm 





From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Thu Mar 11 03:55:13 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 03:55:13 -0000
Subject: The Dudley Theory
In-Reply-To: <c2o021+hm1e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2onv1+1la7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92707

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Arya" <dequardo at w...> wrote:
>  "suehpfan" <stanleys at s...> wrote:
> >> Aha!  Happy day.  Mrs. Figg (apparently) saw the Dementors.  We 
> know Harry and other magical people can see them for sure. Dudley 
did 
> not see the Dementors.  In fact, he ran right at one of them trying 
> to get away and only described the incident as feeling "cold, 
really 
> > cold."   OotP US pg. 31.  Therefore, he cannot be magical.  
> -------
> 
> Not necessarily.  It could be something like the power of knowledge 
> and belief (think how the Fidelius Charm hides the fact of 
something 
> existing from plain sight) that conceals the Dementors to muggles 
in 
> general.  Ms. Figg knowing that the cold and darkness--the 
*feeling* 
> was liekly atrributal to Dementors and knowing the fact that 
> Dementors exist, might be all one needs to *know* to *see* them.  
> 
> Arya

"Dementors are among the foulest creatures that walk this earth.  
They infest the darkest, filthiest places, they glory in decay and 
despair, they drain peace, hope and happiness out of the air around 
them.  Even Muggles feel their presence, *though they can't see 
them*."(emphasis mine, PoA US paperback pg 187) 

This is how Lupin describes Dementors.  Given the fact that we now 
know he is a half blood, I would think we can take his word for it.

Sue, who is not trying to be a pain, just doesn't want Dudley to 
*ever* be able to challenge/hurt/hex Harry again.




From erikal at magma.ca  Thu Mar 11 05:35:45 2004
From: erikal at magma.ca (Erika L.)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 23:35:45 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why isn't Harry Friendlier with Hermione?
Message-ID: <01de01c4072a$b46734e0$6b8b1a40@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 92708

Robert Jones wrote:

>We see the story through Harry's eyes >and all he knows about 
>Hermione is that her parents are Muggle >dentists

<snip>

>Contrast that with all we know about >Harry's other 
>best friend, Ron.

I think this is more a function of JKR's storytelling than of Harry's inattention. Rowling, I think, wants to avoid introducing information that isn't relevant to the plot or which she deems simply uninteresting. And while _I_ would certainly like to know more about Hermione and her family, particularly about how the fact of her being a witch affects family dynamics, Rowling doesn't agree:

Royal Albert Hall Appearance --June 26 2003

SF: Now, just a personal question because you seem to know, are we ever
going meet Hermione's parents?

JKR: Well we've seen them briefly but they're dentists so they're not that
interesting

http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2003/0603-AlbertHall-FryRowling.htm

Hermione's parents are "not that interesting" according to JKR. Ron's family, of course, as wizard a family, is seen as more interesting and can also play a far more significant role in the plot, so I think it's natural that we know more about Ron and where he comes from.

>He is concerned with her safety of >course -- like trying to save her in >the forest and being upset with what >happened to her in the Department of >Mysteries -- but wouldn't he have been >that way for any of his friends?

Yes I think Harry would do his utmost to protect any of his friends, but I think it's also clear that Hermione is more than just "any of his friends". I'm not trying to get shippy here, but Hermione is a special friend. A couple of examples to illustrate my point. At the DoM, when they break and run, Harry grabs Hermione's robes and drags her along (694 UK). I think this indicates that he does feel particularly protective of her. Also, during the second task in GoF, in addition to Ron, Harry wants to save Hermione, Cho, and Gabrielle, but note his precise words:

"'_She's_ my friend too!' Harry yelled, gesturing towards Hermione, an enormous silver bubble emerging soundlessly from his lips. 'And I don't want _them_ to die, either!" (433-4 UK)

Now notice how, in this passage, the girl he's been infatuated with since book three, i.e. Cho, gets reduced to being "them". Cho is his crush, yet Hermione is clearly more important to him than the girl he has a crush on. It's just like at the DoM; when it comes down to life and death, Hermione is more important than any friend except perhaps Ron.

>From Harry's point of view, apparently >it's all about Harry. Harry of course is >friendly to Hermione, but he basically >treats Hermione like "a library with >legs" for school stuff and LV.

A couple of things here. First, Harry is a teenage boy, and one not all that used to having friends. He made his first friend at age eleven, so if he's a little more caught up in his own problems (and come on, who isn't at fifteen?) and somewhat less appreciative of Hermione and her help than he should be, I don't think it's terribly surprising. However, I disagree that he treats her as only a walking library. First of all, he doesn't rely solely on her intellectual abilities; Harry also expects Hermione's emotional support. She is always the one to comfort and support him. In OoP he gets snipey very quickly if he feels she isn't supportive of him:

"Hermione, who Harry had expected to react angrily on his behalf, sighed.

[...]

'Been having a nice little chat with her about whether or not I'm a lying, attention-seeking prat, have you?" Harry said loudly." (201 UK ch 12)

Hermione's response is to explain that she told Lavender to shut her mouth and then to say that Harry should stop jumping down her and Ron's throats. Harry's response is rather extreme and mean-spirited, but it's prompted by what he feels is a loss of Hermione's support. He "expected" her support and when he didn't feel he had it, he blew up as he is prone to in OoP (it's worth noting, though, that Harry does in fact apologise for his behaviour just a few lines later- a rare occurrence in OoP). All this is to say that Harry doesn't just want Hermione around for her brains.

On the subject of Hermione's intellectual abilities, though, I really think it's Ron more than Harry who treats Hermione like "a library with legs". It's Ron, for example, who insists that he and Harry need her History of Magic notes (207 ch 12). And when Hermione corrects their Astronomy papers, Ron needs the help more than Harry. IIRC, the only error in Harry's paper is that he wrote "mice" instead of "ice", whereas Ron's paper requires a good bit more work. Harry clearly benefits from Hermione's homework help, but I hardly think one can say that he sees her only as a living library.

I'll grant you that I think Harry really does take Hermione for granted. She's a loyal and devoted friend and Harry doesn't often seem very appreciative of her help- he just always expects it. I would like to suggest, though, that maybe Harry pays a bit more attention than we know. Remember back in PoA during the fight over the Frebolt and then Scabbers? It's Harry who tries to make up with Hermione both times, and he shows concern over her huge workload and her near-frantic state (185, 195-6 PoA UK). I think there's also evidence that Harry pays attention to what Hermione tells him about herself. Again, in PoA, she reveals that Arithmancy is her favourite class, and in OoP Harry gets her a Numerology (which I assume is related to Arithmancy) book for Christmas, to Hermione's great delight (444). I think Harry's a little more attentive than we give him credit for.

Best,

Erika (Wolfraven)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Mar 11 04:32:22 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 04:32:22 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Harry and Hermione together per JKR chat?
In-Reply-To: <f2.37eb304b.2d812f18@aol.com>
Message-ID: <c2oq4m+ag2r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92709

Neil:
> It is amazing how people can read the same book and get 
totally different  views on a subject.  In my opinion Harry had 
much more to do with Hermione  becoming a friend of his and 
Ron than Ron did.  Harry was the one to think of  Hermione and 
go off to find her when the troll was in the castle.  That started
the friendship.<

::blinks:: Is this movie contamination? Or maybe we're *not* 
reading the same book <g>

===
"It's the girls' toilets!" Harry gasped.
"*Hermione!*" they said together.
===
Bloomsbury, PS ch 10

It was Harry who had the brilliant idea of locking the troll in...not 
one of his stellar heroic achievements <g>  and Ron who  
knocked out the Troll. It would have been a very short series 
without him.

Neil:
> If it hadn't been for Harry, I doubt very much that Ron and 
Hermione would  even be on speaking terms.  He was the 
mutual friend that kept bringing them  back together after 
numerous fights.  The way the two fight, it seems that their 
 friendship with Harry is the only thing they have in common.<

Hermione worked awfully hard to get Ron and Harry back 
together in GoF.  Alot of  Hermione's  social development seems 
to be more down to Ron than Harry. Ron's the one who gets her 
to play games, takes her on her first visit to Hogsmeade, invites 
her to stay with his family, and lets her know  more than once 
that being too much like Percy is not on.

Pippin





From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Thu Mar 11 04:55:59 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 04:55:59 -0000
Subject: LV as Blofeld/Dr Evil?
In-Reply-To: <c2o07a+rkmi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2orgv+kia1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92710

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nymphadora1" 
<nymphadora1 at y...> wrote:
>       After listening to Goblet of Fire for the nth time, something 
struck me as 
> rather odd. After having Harry tied to the gravestone to bleed him, 
and then 
> being resurrected, why did Voldie free him and give him his wand 
back so he 
> could duel with him? This strikes me as being totally out of 
character for 
> you-know-who. He's tried to kill Harry three times, once as a baby 
when he 
> should have been totally defenseless, and failed. Why would LV give 
Harry 
> the opportunity to fight back? What a berk!

snip of James Bond references

> Nymph (who would love to see Harry Potter and Austin Powers team up 
to rid 
> the world of evil).

IIRC (I do not have my book with me) Voldemort wanted to prove there 
was nothing special about Harry.  He even take the time to "play" 
with him, just to make his point.  It is not until Harry throws off 
the Imperius Curse that Voldemort realizes he better get to it and 
starts Crucioing him.  

Voldemort, like many egomaniacal villains, never gives a second 
thought to the idea that there really may be something "special" 
about Harry until he has humiliated himself and Harry has gotten away.

I think Austin Powers could make a great DADA professor, book six 
perhaps?
Sue




From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Thu Mar 11 05:07:35 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 05:07:35 -0000
Subject: Chat - shorter summer at Dursleys
In-Reply-To: <c2o9ic+vqrt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2os6n+41st@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92711

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Berit Jakobsen" 
<belijako at o...> wrote:
> Sue wrote:
> 
> Loving the idea of a total shift in power on Privet.
> 
> Berit replies:
> 
> Interesting thought :-) Maybe it is already starting to happen at 
the 
> end of OoP... Check out the quotes below. There's quite a change in 
> who takes charge in the ending scenes in GoF and OoP; earlier Harry 
> has been trailing along in the Dursley's wake; at the end of OoP it 
> is the other way around. Might just be a coincidence, but it might 
> also be a sign of a shift in power...
> 
> GoF:
> "Harry ..., turned to Uncle Vernon, and *followed* him silently 
from 
> the station."
> 
> OoP:
> "He smiled, raised a hand in farewell, turned around and *led* the 
> way out of the station towards the sunlit street, Uncle Vernon, 
Aunt 
> Petunia and Dudley hurrying along in his wake."
> 
> Berit
> http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html

I have said before (probably more than once) this is perhaps my most 
favorite image from OotP ("God rest ye merry hippogriff" is right up 
there too) because it is so indicative of Harry coming into his own.  
I just don't think there is anything the Dursleys could do anymore to 
victimize Harry.  I think it is entirely possible the Dursleys will 
actually *need* Harry for the protection his presence provides *them*.

Oh how I wish it were summer before 6th year.
Sue




From gbannister10 at aol.com  Thu Mar 11 07:42:11 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 07:42:11 -0000
Subject: Misplaced reply - apologies
In-Reply-To: <c2o564+4obj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2p58j+bpn6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92712

My apologies to all.

In a lapse of concentration, I wrongly posted message 92690 
under "Seeing through invisibility cloaks" when it should have been 
under "Malfoy/Karkaroff".

I had prepared it offline and then pasted it into the wrong reply.....

Oops. Who's got the iron?




From gbannister10 at aol.com  Thu Mar 11 07:53:30 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 07:53:30 -0000
Subject: Need Quote: Help with Sirius's Motorcyle - More
In-Reply-To: <c2oial+j1o9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2p5tq+6ns0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92713

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" 
<justcarol67 at y...> wrote:
> Carol:
> <snipped> So, again, I think it's just the electronic version that 
has
> "get this bike away" and that "I'll be giving Sirius his bike back"
> (pure Hagrid-speak) is the authentic version. I know that being in 
the
> American edition doesn't authenticate it, but Shaun says it's in his
> Bloomsbury as well. If so, it's the preferred, and possibly the
> original, version.
>  
> Neri:
> According to Berit (#92582) her Bloomsbury also has "get this bike 
> away". I suspect that Shaun Hately was right: this version appears 
> only in the first (1997) Bloomsbury edition, and was later 
corrected 
> to include Sirius' name. Anyone with a 1997 UK edition?
> 
> 
> Carol again:
> If it's a correction, it's the preferred version, right? Maybe the
> U.K. editor changed it in 1997 but JKR changed it back in later
> printings? It seems odd for the correct version to appear *first* in
> the American edition, and as I said, I don't think an American 
editor
> would have changed "get this bike away" to "giv[e] Sirius his bike
> back." "Sirius his" for "Sirius's" is what we poor deluded Americans
> call a Briticism.

Geoff:
My hardback UK edition, which is dated 1999 on the info page and 
which I bought last autumn hase "get this bike away".

"Give Sirius his bike back" and "Give Sirius' bike back" would both 
be acceptable Britishisms.




From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Thu Mar 11 09:41:18 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 09:41:18 -0000
Subject: LV as Blofeld/Dr Evil?
In-Reply-To: <c2o07a+rkmi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2pc7u+c1r6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92714

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nymphadora1" <nymphadora1 at y...> wrote:
>       After listening to Goblet of Fire for the nth time, something struck me as 
> rather odd. After having Harry tied to the gravestone to bleed him, and then 
> being resurrected, why did Voldie free him and give him his wand back so he 
> could duel with him? This strikes me as being totally out of character for 
> you-know-who. He's tried to kill Harry three times, once as a baby when he 
> should have been totally defenseless, and failed. Why would LV give Harry 
> the opportunity to fight back? What a berk!


He's not giving him a chance to fight on equal terms, or at least  he doesn't
think that he is.

All of Harry's protection, so far as Voldy is aware, is automatic; it is not
*wand* magic. Harry is still only a student and theoretically has no chance
in a formal duel. No way can he conjure up the range (or power) of wand
magic that Voldy can. It's a fix; a bit  like the experienced gunslinger in
numerous westerns provoking a fight with a local farmer.

Only the conflict of wands saves Harry. Sure, he can cast a disarming spell,
but would that end the duel? Not likely, Voldy would congratulate him with
added sarcasm, and then proceed to blow his head off.

For a full dissection of this episode read Bluesqueak's 40044.

Kneasy





From drednort at alphalink.com.au  Thu Mar 11 09:59:14 2004
From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 20:59:14 +1100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Need Quote: Help with Sirius's Motorcyle - More
In-Reply-To: <c2oa6a+q77k@eGroups.com>
References: <c2lhk7+iqsm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4050D322.7589.15DA4B8@localhost>

No: HPFGUIDX 92715

On 11 Mar 2004 at 0:00, justcarol67 wrote:

> Also, if you look at earlier posts, Neri said that his *electronic*
> version had "get this bike away" but Shaun Hately's Bloomsbury
> paperback (or hardback?) has the same wording as the US edition: "I'll
> be takin' Sirius his bike back."

My copy is a hardback and it definitely has this wording.

OK - I'm going to put down all the information I can identify as 
possibly dating the book, in case it helps someone work out what's 
going on.

My edition is definitely British, definitely Bloomsbury (some of 
the more recent books have been printed in Australia even though 
except for a statement on the Copyright page, they seem identical 
to the British editions - but this copy of Philosopher's Stone is 
definitely British).

It has the Thomas Taylor cover illustration, and the area behind 
the words Harry Potter are yellow (I have seen gold there on some 
editions, I think).

On the copyright/publication details page, there is no reference to 
a publication number. Simply a statement that it was First 
Published in Great Britain in 1997 and is Copyright 1997

It mentions that Harry Potter is trademarked to Warner Brothers, 
2000 - so it dates from after that.

The following numbers also appear:

26 27 28 29 30

I seem to recall reading at some stage that the first number listed 
there indicates the printing number - so this would seem to be the 
26th print run.




Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia




From falkelihu at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 11 08:43:13 2004
From: falkelihu at yahoo.com (Elihu Falk)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 00:43:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Malfoy/Karkaroff
In-Reply-To: <c2oghl+unfd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040311084313.53089.qmail@web61104.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92716

Eloise wrote:
> <snip>
> It's not clear how public this hearing was or whether the 
> proceedings were publicised beyond those present in the 
> chamber at the time.
> <snip> So perhaps Lucius simply did not know that
> Karkaroff was a traitor.
 
Carrol:
> Since Draco refers to Karkaroff as his father's friend and 
> talks about having almost been sent to Durmstrang, it seems 
> unlikely that Lucius knows about Karkaroff's betrayal. OTOH, 
> since he got off scot-free, maybe he doesn't care who else 
> Karkaroff betrayed.  Given Lucius's self-serving nature, 
> though, I'd say the first possibility is more likely. 

Elihu's answer:

In fact, the only person sent to Azkaban as a result
of Karkaroff's statement was Rookwood! Maybe Malfoy
and McNair resented Rookwood and saw him as
competition over getting more useful imformation to
LV, and were happy that Rookwood went to Azkaban.

=====
Elihu





From paula at jefftrout.com  Wed Mar 10 22:32:05 2004
From: paula at jefftrout.com (paulaboo1013)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 22:32:05 -0000
Subject: Something Small
In-Reply-To: <c2mfer+te3g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2o515+i0u3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92717

> Jenni wrote:
> 
> <lots of interesting info on the hand of glory snipped>
> > On another note of pure speculation...
> > 
> > Dean values his right hand, and fears losing it.

Carol: 
> Do you remember where you read this? All I remember about Dean
> (besides being Muggle-born and Seamus's best friend) is that he's good
> with a quill. His drawing ability or his skill at forging signatures
> has been mentioned IIRC in every book. Maybe that's the "something
> small" (a minor skill) that will play a big role. At any rate, it's
> been mentioned do often that it has to be important at some point--I
> have absolutely no idea how.



Prisoner of Azkaban, us edition, The Bogart in the Wardrobe, Pg. 139
"'it's confused!' shouted Lupin.  'We're getting there! Dean!'
Dean hurried forward.
Crack! The eyeball became a severed hand, which flipped over and began
to creep alond the floor like a crab."

He most fears a severed hand, presumably his own.

Paula





From falkelihu at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 11 08:33:39 2004
From: falkelihu at yahoo.com (Elihu Falk)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 00:33:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Dudley's worst memory (Was: What's in it for the Dursleys?)
In-Reply-To: <c2o7f3+j1tj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040311083339.82359.qmail@web61106.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92718

Carol wrote:
> At a guess, Dudley's worst memory would be falling
> through the glass into the snake enclosure in CoS. 
> Or how about the ton tongue toffee and his mother 
> pulling on his tongue to try to save him in PoA? 


Elihu's comments:

You made a mistake with the references. The ton tongue
toffee was in GoF, not PoA, and the snake incident was
in PS/SS, not in CoS.

=====
Elihu





From tmar78 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 11 07:20:17 2004
From: tmar78 at yahoo.com (tyler maroney)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 23:20:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Dudley's Worst Memory
In-Reply-To: <1078981699.7054.70000.m16@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040311072017.19942.qmail@web14108.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92719

Carol:
Either of those incidents would seem pretty terrible
from pampered Dudley's perspective.

Tyler:
I have a funny feeling its gonna be something more
traumatic than that.  What if Dudley has been
physically abused at some point in his life and he was
forced to relive that?  Not sexually,  but maybe there
was an adult who used to smack him around when he was
little and it scared him so much he was afraid to say
anything even to Uncle Vernon.  I've always had this
feeling that Dudley must've been abused in some
fashion;  it would help explain alot.  Abused children
often grow up to be abusive teenagers and later
abusive adults.




=====
"It is our choices that show what we truly are,  far more than our abilities."

                                                                         - Albus Dumbledore





From rorogersmc at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 11 00:43:43 2004
From: rorogersmc at yahoo.com (rorogersmc)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 00:43:43 -0000
Subject: Is Hermione Older or Younger than Harry?
Message-ID: <c2ocnv+ufbh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92720

I'm responding generally, and not specifically to everyones comments.  Also, I don't 
expect what I have to say to clear up the confusion, just add something to think 
about.
How do we know that the decision of when students start at Hogwarts by their age, is 
based on the school year, and not the calendar year?  Lots of schools, maybe even 
most schools admit students by when their birthday falls in relation to the school 
year.  However, not meaning to get religious, but to illustrate.  All of my sunday 
school classes were based on calendar year.  Because of this, I actually had sunday 
school classes with others who where in a different school grade than I was.
Anyway, this is just a thought I've been having, not a meaningful solution.

Rachael





From nkittyhawk97 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 11 02:31:15 2004
From: nkittyhawk97 at yahoo.com (nkittyhawk97)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 02:31:15 -0000
Subject: Snape&Karkaroff... and a third party?
Message-ID: <c2oj1j+hth4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92721

In the quote on page 651 of the US GoF containing, "One, too 
cowardly to return" and "One who I believe has left me forever" has 
never, in my eyes, had any room LEFT for speculation.

Karakaroff and Snape are the Death Eaters... place them where you 
will... they weren't present that night, they weren't dead, and it 
is pretty obvious Crouch Jr. is the one "most faithful" because he 
was missing as well, and wouldn't fit under any of the other 
descriptions. (dead, cowardly, etc.)

So, my question is, if someone else was the "One who I believe has 
left me forever", then where does that place Snape? Some could say 
he was secretly faithful, unkown to the readers, but then he would 
still have been listed under the six that were absent.
And Rowling only said in her interview, concerning the quote, 
to "work it out", therefore concluding we had all the information to 
do so, and that it didn't seem too difficult in her eyes.

Of course, she wouldn't say "Snape" right in front, because she 
still wants some suspense for those who may beleive he's essentially 
evil... aka those who question the quote's blantant simpleness.





From rorogersmc at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 11 02:43:21 2004
From: rorogersmc at yahoo.com (rorogersmc)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 02:43:21 -0000
Subject: Apparting into the Ministry...
In-Reply-To: <c2nrl4+e31m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2ojo9+bbk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92722

Elihu wrote: If apparation/Disapparation isn't possible to all locations in the MOM, then 
the Dept of Mysteries would be among the places that you can't apparate to. However, 
Dumbledore had to put the DEs in a room with an anti-apparation jinx. That means that, 
if fact, you can disapparate from anywhere in the ministry.

Rachael's Reply: I agree that this is a likely possibility. The secrecy of the DOM would 
need to be protected by anti-apparation spells because I doubt that the Ministry would 
even allow the possibility that any old wizard could just apparate into it (think what the 
Weasley Twins would do if this were possible!)  But, if only select wizards, 
"unspeakables", are allowed in, there should be no harm in allowing those authorized 
wizards to disapparate when they are ready to leave.
Another thought is, maybe if a place is spelled against apparation, it is automatically 
spelled against disapparation.  However, apparation into the DOM I definitely think is a 
no, no.

Rachael, who thinks this is a fun discussion topic






From darkthirty at shaw.ca  Thu Mar 11 10:45:29 2004
From: darkthirty at shaw.ca (dan)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 10:45:29 -0000
Subject: "Shorter Summer" cause Harry runs away like I said
Message-ID: <c2pg09+967i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92723

To so-called "protect" his friends, of course, at the opportune time 
draw the eye of Sau... of LV away from the school and all that - is 
he aided and abetted by someone in the Order, or does he try to set 
out on his own, as in POA? Go to Romania? To a joke shoppe? To 
Sweden? (LOL my own H/L shipping...)

That is, in order "to be more useful," to grow up, as it were, does 
HP need to voluntarily give up his WW connections (concretizing them, 
in a way), so that, when they are re-established (by some ingenious 
way) they have something more of the authentic in them? As OOP let us 
move away from too tight a closeting with the character HP, in fact 
jarred us away from that, we were able to see more of the WW in its 
own ethical dimension - so will the character HP do the same thing 
for himself? The others in the books become more "real"...

Sometimes, I must admit, my own BIC LIGHTER creeps me out...




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Thu Mar 11 10:51:05 2004
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 10:51:05 -0000
Subject: Tom Riddle's Birth (Re: JKR Chat  "The Crucial ...")
In-Reply-To: <c2enpi+i6lm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2pgap+ubuu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92724

Naama wrote:

> JKR is clearly portraying Harry and Tom as very similar in their 
> basic nature and temperament (outward appearance, talented, brave, 
> ambitious, charismatic). However, who they become is (or will be) 
the 
> opposite poles of good and evil. I'm wondering whether we 
shouldn't 
> apply this basic opposition to their very beginning as babies. If 
> Harry received the gift of love from his mother, maybe Tom 
received a 
> gift of hate? 
> What if his mother, before she died, did indeed cast some kind of 
> protective charm on him, but it was based not on her love for him, 
> but on her hatred of his father? 
> If we see the magical as a metaphor for the psychological (this is 
> clearly the case with the protection that a mother's love 
provides), 
> it does happen in real life - parents raising their child to hate, 
> almost base their whole personality, on a hatred of a betraying 
> spouse. I think this fits better with the Good/Evil and Love as 
the 
> Greatest Force scheme than with Tom's mother protecting him with 
her 
> love.

I have some difficulty with this, because it doesn't in my opinion 
fit very well with the theme of choice.  If Riddle was cursed at 
birth then, technically he may not have been born evil, but in the 
wider context, it's as good as.  In the HP-verse, if Riddle followed 
the path from good (or at least not-evil) to evil, then I think the 
dominant influence would have been his own choices, not the actions 
of others.

If he was protected, or otherwise charmed, by his mother's love, 
then the magnitude of his subsequent exploits fits the magnitude of 
the choices he must have made to depart from that love.

David, who is staggered to learn that Lexicon Steve doesn't have his 
own copies of the UK editions




From MadameSSnape at aol.com  Thu Mar 11 10:58:43 2004
From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 05:58:43 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Something Small
Message-ID: <1f1.1b1992ac.2d81a063@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92725

In a message dated 3/11/2004 5:33:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
paula at jefftrout.com writes:

Prisoner of Azkaban, us edition, The Bogart in the Wardrobe, Pg. 139
"'it's confused!' shouted Lupin.  'We're getting there! Dean!'
Dean hurried forward.
Crack! The eyeball became a severed hand, which flipped over and began
to creep alond the floor like a crab."

He most fears a severed hand, presumably his own.
=============

Sherrie here:

Dean is a Muggleborn, is he not?  When I read this bit, I was reminded of an 
old, old (1946 or '47, IIRC) B horror flick, THE BEAST WITH FIVE FINGERS.  
(Okay, I confess - I was actually reminded of the "Hand of Count Petofi" segment 
from DARK SHADOWS, which was a shameless rip-off of that film, right down to 
the ring!)  The film featured Peter Lorre; in it, the severed hand of a 
deceased pianist went about killing people.  

Maybe Dean's been watching the British equivalent of "Creature Features"?

Sherrie
"Unless history lives in our present, it has no future." 
PRESERVE OUR CIVIL WAR BATTLEFIELDS!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From kzspot at msn.com  Thu Mar 11 03:10:36 2004
From: kzspot at msn.com (kzspot)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 03:10:36 -0000
Subject: The Dudley Theory
In-Reply-To: <c2ohj9+bh4e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2olbc+2jr6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92726

Carol (who will believe the narrator's repeated assertions that all
three Dursleys are Muggles till she's proven wrong by Book Six or 
Seven):
> Interestingly, she says that we should "keep an eye on Dudley," 
which
> is the same thing she says about Snape. 
 
                                                               
        BIG SNIPS!!!!!!!!sorry 
everybody!  
                                                          
 I always thought the reason the Dursleys gave everything to Dudley 
is so he wouldn`t get upset and do magic. Remember, Harry could only 
do magic when he was upset before he went to Hogwarts, so maybe 
Petunia`s deal with Dumbledore was that Dudley wouldn`t get a letter 
but Dudley will have to now do magic since they maybe will get 
attacked at the house.   

kzspot (who is truly sorry I had to snip so 
much)





From eloiseherisson at aol.com  Thu Mar 11 12:18:04 2004
From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 07:18:04 EST
Subject: ADMIN: Keeping Things Legal (e-texts)
Message-ID: <1df.1b0dc94e.2d81b2fc@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92727

Greetings from Hexquarters!

We would just like to remind you that although we all know that e-texts of 
the Harry Potter novels do exist, these are copyright violations and therefore 
*illegal*. This applies equally to audio files of the audiobooks.

Please do not post queries, information about or links to such sites on any 
of the HPfGU lists. Any messages containing such content will be deleted.

Many thanks,

The List Administration Team


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From xmezumiiru at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 11 12:39:14 2004
From: xmezumiiru at yahoo.com (An'nai Jiriki)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 04:39:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape&Karkaroff... and a third party?
In-Reply-To: <c2oj1j+hth4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040311123914.25243.qmail@web12201.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92728


--- nkittyhawk97 <nkittyhawk97 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> In the quote on page 651 of the US GoF containing,
> "One, too 
> cowardly to return" and "One who I believe has left
> me forever" has 
> never, in my eyes, had any room LEFT for
> speculation.
> 

> So, my question is, if someone else was the "One who
> I believe has 
> left me forever", then where does that place Snape?
> Some could say 
> he was secretly faithful, unkown to the readers, but
> then he would 
> still have been listed under the six that were
> absent.
> And Rowling only said in her interview, concerning
> the quote, 
> to "work it out", therefore concluding we had all
> the information to 
> do so, and that it didn't seem too difficult in her
> eyes.


I have thought about it and think this. (Thinking
being key to this response)

If Voldemort is really that good, then he is a
thinker. While I do not believe it was his presentable
intention to leave Harry alive after his return party,
I also think he wanted Harry to live in a small sense.
I mean, how else is 14 year-old boy going to defeat
all those men? It was far too easy for Harry to
escape. Also, why else would the portkey have a return
setting if not for someone to return?

Voldemort, with the knowledge that Harry might/should
get away, refrained from mentioning Snape in order to
keep his spy safe. He would not know that Snape is
Dumbledore's spy, as only Karakoff knew Snape was the
spy and he did not tell the Death Eaters or Voldemort,
nor that he would reveal himself later. As for the
mark still burning, it is possible that it burns for
sometime after the meeting, hence his ability to show
Fudge. We just don't know enough about the mark to
make the judgement if Snape was at the meeting or not
because of the mark.

Chris $0.02

=====
"You irritate me. Kill me now." ~Javert, Les Miserables

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster
http://search.yahoo.com



From delwynmarch at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 11 12:51:33 2004
From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 12:51:33 -0000
Subject: On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
In-Reply-To: <c2iog4+tgqs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2pncl+9d2d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92729

I was going through recent past posts, and since I am quite a 
defender of the Bad People, I couln't help answering this one.

Geoff said :
 
> Yes but it doesn't excuse the way in which [the Dursleys] treated 
> [Harry]. They have turned him into a "local eyesore" and made him a 
> deeply unhappy boy to punish him because his parents had the 
> temerity to get themselves blown up and the poor Dursleys had to 
> take Harry under their wing. 

Del answers :

For people like the Dursleys, that's a perfectly valid excuse. There 
are tons of people out there who think that life should always treat 
them right, and that they are entitled to try and destroy or at least 
modify whatever is bothering them. Their children, in particular, 
should only give them pleasure and reasons to be proud. If they 
don't, they get punished. Many kids get forcibly coerced into 
becoming whatever their parents dream them to become. With disastrous 
results in the end, of course.

Geoff :

> They are only assuming at the start that Harry might show magical 
> powers. And why has he shown them before his 11th birthday? Because 
> he has done it subconsciously when he is under threat - the 
> haircut, the brown jumper with orange bobbles, the boys in the 
> playground, the glass vanishing after he was pushed.....

Del :

Yes, but it can be safely assumed that Harry would have shown magical 
powers anyway, even if he had been treated right. It's apparently 
quite common for magical kids to exhibit magical abilities every once 
in a while. I remember reading about the kids talking about it in 
PS/SS. I'm pretty sure Lily did some funny things as a kid, and 
Petunia remembers that quite well.

Geoff :

> If Vernon and Petunia had had a little more thought, if Vernon's 
> actions had been less of a high class pachyderm and more of an 
> understanding person, he might have treated Harry on more of an 
> equal footing with Dudley. As a result we would have had a Harry 
> who was not a waif and stray and Dudley would not have developed 
> into a tantrum-throwing, bullying "pig in a wig". Mark you, we 
> might not have had such an interesting series of books......   :-)

Del :

What would be the gain for the Dursleys ?? They *like* Dudley being a 
bullying "pig in a wig", and they don't care about Harry being a waif 
and a stray. What you're asking is for the king to treat any orphan 
the same as the prince : why ever would he do that ? I know Harry is 
technically their nephew, but as far as they were concerned before he 
arrived, he was less family to them than the neighbours' son !

Geoff:

> See my comment previously. Harry might well have conformed under 
> those circumstances. His non-conformity is often the result of his 
> subconscious protection reflexes kicking in when /someone else/ 
> doesn't conform to reasonable behaviour.

Del :

I think Harry shows magic when he's extremely stressed, period. Just 
like Neville showed his magical abilities to save his life when Uncle 
Algie threw him out the window, Harry does magic to get himself out 
of situations that stress him. Whether those situations are created 
by ill-meaning people or not doesn't necessarily matter.

> > Kneasy:
> > Again true. But are they determined to kill Harry at Stonewall 
> > High? Anyway Harry saw S.H. as a refuge -  Dudders  and his gang 
> > weren't going there. 
> 
> Geoff:
> Only Dudley and Piers Polkiss I think... (PS "The Letters from No 
> One" p.28 UK edition).

Del :

Nope ! Dudley is going to Smeltings (?), and the others too I guess - 
not that it matters anyway : without Dudley to lead them, nobody 
would care much about Harry.

Geoff :

> On the DVD of COS, there are a series of interviews with members of 
> the cast and it is interesting to see what Fiona Shaw, who plays 
> Petunia, has to say:
> 
> "The extraordinary things about the Dursleys is that they are very 
> funny because they are very recognisable social aspirers and full 
> of that kind of dogged, low-ceiling imagination which means they 
> can't see beyond their material dreams".
> 
> The sort who cannot see the human needs of a child put into their 
> care who is the recipient of their displeasure as a result.

Del :

Hey, there are even *biological* parents who can't see the human 
needs of their children ! In fact, Dudley is as much a victim of his 
parents' behaviour as Harry, just not the same way. He knows only one 
way to fit into any society : brute force. He won't be able to deal 
with normal social situations where force can't help : you can't 
threaten a potential employer into hiring you, for example. And he'll 
live in fear forever once he discovers there are people out there who 
are even stronger than he is (which is bound to happen sometime soon).

Geoff :

> I wonder if they are also the sort who take everything that is said 
> literally and fail completely to see when there is an element of 
> leg-pulling going on?   :-|

Del :

Oh, so you mean you were just pulling our legs and you actually like 
Uncle Vernon ;-) ?

Del






From annemehr at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 11 13:38:22 2004
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 13:38:22 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Harry and Hermione together per JKR chat?
In-Reply-To: <c2oq4m+ag2r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2pq4e+va75@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92730


> Neil:
> > It is amazing how people can read the same book and get 
> totally different  views on a subject.  In my opinion Harry had 
> much more to do with Hermione  becoming a friend of his and 
> Ron than Ron did.  Harry was the one to think of  Hermione and 
> go off to find her when the troll was in the castle.  That started
> the friendship.<

Pippin: 
> ::blinks:: Is this movie contamination? Or maybe we're *not* 
> reading the same book <g>
> 
> ===
> "It's the girls' toilets!" Harry gasped.
> "*Hermione!*" they said together.
> ===
> Bloomsbury, PS ch 10
> 
> It was Harry who had the brilliant idea of locking the troll in...not 
> one of his stellar heroic achievements <g>  and Ron who  
> knocked out the Troll. It would have been a very short series 
> without him.
> 

Annemehr:
Well, Pippin, apparently you're reading an abridged version! <jk>

Before the part you cited, when everyone is supposed to be going back
to their dormitories per Dumbledore's orders:

---------------------
They passed different groups of people hurrying in different
directions.  As they jostled their way through a crowd of confused
Hufflepuffs, Harry suddenly grabbed Ron's arm.

"I've just thought -- Hermione."

"What about her?"

"She doesn't know about the troll."

Ron bit his lip.

"Oh, all right," he snapped.  "But Percy'd better not see us."
------------------------

And off they go to look for Hermione (Ron suprisingly reluctant,
actually).

Niether of them realised the room they locked the troll into was a
bathroom at all until Hermione screamed, so I don't read anything into
that.

Annemehr
not much of a SHIPper but likes Harry and Hermione just as they are 





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Thu Mar 11 14:09:53 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 14:09:53 -0000
Subject: Malfoy/Karkaroff
In-Reply-To: <c2oghl+unfd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2prvh+bguv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92731


>snip<
Carol wrote:
> 
> Since Draco refers to Karkaroff as his father's friend and talks 
about
> having almost been sent to Durmstrang, it seems unlikely that Lucius
> knows about Karkaroff's betrayal. OTOH, since he got off scot-free,
> maybe he doesn't care who else Karkaroff betrayed. Given Lucius's
> self-serving nature, though, I'd say the first possibility is more
> likely. 
> 


Potioncat:
I do agree that Karkaroff's betrayal is not common knowlege.  Snape 
doesn't seem to know since he calls him Igor...the only adult he 
calls by first names.  And we know he betrayed Snape. 

I doubt Malfoy knows. But even if he does know, I suspect Malfoy 
would associate with or use anyone that he thought could help him 
achieve his goals.
Potioncat




From gbannister10 at aol.com  Thu Mar 11 14:13:02 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 14:13:02 -0000
Subject: The Dudley Theory
In-Reply-To: <c2olbc+2jr6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2ps5e+jk46@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92732

Having started this discussion about Dudley as a child, perhaps I 
should go a little deeper and explain how my thoughts came about.

When I read a book, certainly for the first time, I tend to read for 
pleasure and, often, nuances and undertones escape me. It's only on 
subsequent readings that I may pick up on detail which is helpful to 
the story line. As I have read PS on subsequent occasions, this has 
indeed happened. When I first read it, I passed over the fact in the 
second chapter that Harry and Dudley were obviously in the same year 
at school. At a first reading, I subconsciously put Dudley as being 
somewhat older than Harry. 

Why? To begin with, Harry seems in the book to be younger than 15 
months. I am not sure that I would leave a toddler of this age 
wrapped in blankets on a doorstep at the end of October. When my 
children were that age, they were mobile and toddling; they were in 
cots at night to stop them wandering around or hurting themselves, 
What would have happened if young Mr.Potter had got active during the 
night?

And then Dudley. Maybe US toddlers can cope with "candy" or "canny" ? 
it's not UK English, they probably have to deal with "sweeties" and I 
still think back to where my flock were at 15 months. Perhaps, we 
didn't feed them as many sweets as parents do nowadays (or in 1981). 
Petunia seems to be the epitome of a modern, middle-class suburban 
mother. They will have their children in a pushchair if they are out. 
If the child fusses, it is unusual to see a mother picking a child up 
and carrying it as well as pushing. She might have been going to a 
neighbour with Dudley hand in hand. That is not what I would expect 
from her environment. Children would be off to nursery fairly early 
or mum would be at home seeing to the child. Visiting neighbours 
would be more a social visit in the evenings. Again, a child of 16 
months being led by the hand (or even free) would have coordination 
difficulties keeping its feet and kicking its mother and Dudley was 
reported as kicking his mother "all the way up the street".

That was my thinking. OK, Dudley is overfed, spoiled rotten. But the 
differences between the two boys, separated by only a month or so 
seemed surprising to me.





From gbannister10 at aol.com  Thu Mar 11 14:17:50 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 14:17:50 -0000
Subject: On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
In-Reply-To: <c2pncl+9d2d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2psee+vmcq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92733

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Doriane" <delwynmarch at y...> 
wrote:

Geoff:
> > Only Dudley and Piers Polkiss I think... (PS "The Letters from No 
> > One" p.28 UK edition).

 
Del: 
> Nope ! Dudley is going to Smeltings (?), and the others too I 
guess - 
> not that it matters anyway : without Dudley to lead them, nobody 
> would care much about Harry.
 

Geoff :
Sorry, I didn't make kyself clear.... I meant it was only Dudley and 
Piers Polkiss who were going to Smeltings. (same page as above)
 

> Geoff :
> 
> > I wonder if they are also the sort who take everything that is 
said 
> > literally and fail completely to see when there is an element of 
> > leg-pulling going on?   :-|
> 
> Del :
> 
> Oh, so you mean you were just pulling our legs and you actually 
like 
> Uncle Vernon ;-) ?

Geoff:
Perhaps you didn't read the post which led to my reply.......
:-)




From annemehr at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 11 14:32:49 2004
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 14:32:49 -0000
Subject: On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
In-Reply-To: <c2pncl+9d2d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2ptah+60sh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92734

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Doriane" <delwynmarch at y...> wrote:
> I was going through recent past posts, and since I am quite a 
> defender of the Bad People, I couln't help answering this one.
> 
> Geoff said :
>  
> > Yes but it doesn't excuse the way in which [the Dursleys] treated 
> > [Harry]. They have turned him into a "local eyesore" and made him a 
> > deeply unhappy boy to punish him because his parents had the 
> > temerity to get themselves blown up and the poor Dursleys had to 
> > take Harry under their wing. 
> 
> Del answers :
> 
> For people like the Dursleys, that's a perfectly valid excuse. There 
> are tons of people out there who think that life should always treat 
> them right, and that they are entitled to try and destroy or at least 
> modify whatever is bothering them. Their children, in particular, 
> should only give them pleasure and reasons to be proud. If they 
> don't, they get punished. Many kids get forcibly coerced into 
> becoming whatever their parents dream them to become. With disastrous 
> results in the end, of course.

Annemehr:
I don't see that as a defense of the Dursleys at all; it's more of an
inictment of them and goes to prove Geoff's point.  People who think
and act like that are Not Nice People.

> 
> Geoff :
> 
> > They are only assuming at the start that Harry might show magical 
> > powers. And why has he shown them before his 11th birthday? Because 
> > he has done it subconsciously when he is under threat - the 
> > haircut, the brown jumper with orange bobbles, the boys in the 
> > playground, the glass vanishing after he was pushed.....
> 
> Del :
> 
> Yes, but it can be safely assumed that Harry would have shown magical 
> powers anyway, even if he had been treated right.
<snip>

Annemehr:
Well, every incident of Harry doing uncontrolled magic, save one, that
we know of is the result of a Dursley's abuse.  The one exception we
know of is when he'd somehow turned his teacher's wig blue; I
*suppose* it was the teacher who'd stressed him that time, but I guess
we can't be sure.

When Hagrid was trying to get Harry to believe he was a wizard, he
said "Never made things happen when you was scared or angry?"  It's
the Dursleys who've been making Harry scared and angry enough to do
reflexive magic.

<big snip> 
> 
> > > Kneasy:
> > > Again true. But are they determined to kill Harry at Stonewall 
> > > High? Anyway Harry saw S.H. as a refuge -  Dudders  and his gang 
> > > weren't going there. 
> > 
> > Geoff:
> > Only Dudley and Piers Polkiss I think... (PS "The Letters from No 
> > One" p.28 UK edition).
> 
> Del :
> 
> Nope ! Dudley is going to Smeltings (?), and the others too I guess - 
> not that it matters anyway : without Dudley to lead them, nobody 
> would care much about Harry.

Annemehr:
No, Geoff is correct: only Dudley and Piers are going to Smeltings. 
Dennis, Malcom and Gordon could well be going to Stonewall; at least,
the narrator doesn't mention them going to a public (i.e. private in
US) school when Dudley and Piers' school plans are mentioned.  And I
don't believe for a minute that they would have left Harry alone just
because Dudley wasn't around.

I'll give you Dursley defenders the fact that they were *afraid* of
taking in a wizard child.  But Harry would not have been constantly
causing catastrophes in their lives; he grew up looking normal enough
that he was able to roam the neighborhood and go to school and the
secret never got out.  Nobody ever suspected a thing.  Besides, they
weren't afraid to let their son hit Harry, and they weren't afraid to
lock Harry into a cupboard.  The Dursleys could not have been living
in such a constant state of terror that they were *unable* to see the
innocent child who was living with them.

The thing that makes me dislike the elder Dursleys is that they could
live with Harry for ten *years* by the beginning of PS/SS and never
soften toward him at all.  That is extremely cold-hearted.  I think
Vernon is the worst because I believe he is the only one who would be
perfectly happy to see Harry dead; I don't get the feeling that
Petunia is quite that far gone.  As for Dudley, I'm hoping to see some
sort of understanding develop between him and Harry -- as JKR says,
there's always hope, right?

Annemehr
who wishes Umbridge and Luna would have come up in the Chat





From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 11 14:50:33 2004
From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (drjuliehoward)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 14:50:33 -0000
Subject: Snape&Karkaroff... and a third party?
In-Reply-To: <20040311123914.25243.qmail@web12201.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c2pubp+m9vc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92735

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, An'nai Jiriki 
<xmezumiiru at y...> wrote:
> 
> --- nkittyhawk97 <nkittyhawk97 at y...> wrote:
> > In the quote on page 651 of the US GoF containing,
> > "One, too 
> > cowardly to return" and "One who I believe has left
> > me forever" has 
> > never, in my eyes, had any room LEFT for
> > speculation.
> > 
> 
> > So, my question is, if someone else was the "One who
> > I believe has 
> > left me forever", then where does that place Snape?
> > <big snip>

Some have speculated that Snape was present at the graveyard.  
Maline's North Tower essay on Mugglenet.com is a good read.

http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/thenorthtower/nt15.shtml
http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/thenorthtower/nt16.shtml

Julie





From rredordead at aol.com  Thu Mar 11 15:46:17 2004
From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 15:46:17 -0000
Subject: Malfoy/Karkaroff
In-Reply-To: <c2nsht+7j58@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2q1k9+m850@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92736

> Susan wrote:
> Mandy, something in your post really struck me, and I wonder if 
>it's okay to ask you (and/or others) to go off on a little tangent?  
> You believe Malfoy to be intelligent [so do I] and the kind of guy 
>to have been able to peg a traitor rather quickly.  You also wonder 
>how much power Malfoy would have had at the time of Voldy's 
>downfall.  
> This all makes me wonder about Lucius....  
> We know that Lucius stayed true to the dark arts during Voldy's 
> absence, and we know he hung onto some artifacts which he had to 
> quickly get rid of when the Ministry raids began, and that he had 
> Riddle's diary to slip into Ginny's cauldron.  What do you all 
>think about how *loyal* he was to Voldy during those "down" years?  
>And how loyal now?  
> Didn't Voldy give him a little dressing down in the graveyard for 
> having not been around during the survival/rebuilding years?  And 
> Malfoy said if he'd believed it was possible for Voldy to return, 
>he would have come or helped or some such thing?  Is that 
>*believable*, to you?  Was he just covering his butt?  Does he 
>really believe in  Voldy's cause or is he just frightened of him?  
>Does he really want to follow Voldy?  Or would he prefer to have the 
>power himself?
> I think Lucius is a very bad man, but I find him rather mysterious, 
> too.  Is he on his own side or is he Voldy's right-hand man, ready 
>to  die for the cause?  What do you all think?


Mandy here:
Hi Susan.  I have at times thought about all the points you bring up 
and my conclusion, (which is always ready to be proved wrong) is that 
Malfoy is working for Malfoy alone.  That LV was useful for Lucius 
when he was a young and impressionable man, but now Malfoy's own 
arrogance rivals that of LV himself. I see Lucius considering LV a 
nuisance, but a necessary evil in ridding the WW of those Lucius 
doesn't consider worthy to be there.  I believe Lucius has the 
stomach, desire and ability to carry out mass murder, but he will not 
get his hands dirty, or tarnish his reputation, if there is an Evil 
Overlord, with DE, to do it for him.  In other words Lucius is using 
LV, just as LV is using Lucius.  Unfortunalty if you make a deal with 
the devil....you will end up dead.  If Lucius isn't careful it's 
going to be LV that eventually kills him (for his will be dead by the 
end of book 7) and not one of the good guys. 

I think Lucius Malfoy never completely believed that LV was truly 
killed by Harry Potter, and would one day come back.  LV had spent 
many years researching how to cheat death, I think Lucius knew this. 

After the fall, Lucius did what he had to do to prevent imprisonment 
in Azkaban, and subsequently enjoyed great personal success without 
LV.  This sets up an interesting conflict of interest for our Lucius 
Malfoy: Lucius knows in his soul, LV isn't really dead and has the 
potential to return one day, yet his return means consequences that 
Lucius doesn't want to deal with.  

I think Lucius joined the DE when he way quite young, perhaps still 
in school, at 17-18, possibly to branch away from his own family.  
Heirs of very wealthy parents are often disenfranchised, lost 
children looking for a purpose in life, and I think LV gave Lucius a 
purpose that suited his needs and sensibilities.  LV steadily rose to 
power and brought Lucius with him, until LV fell at Harry's hands, 15 
years ago. (In WW time.)  Lucius had to do a lot of scrambling to 
survive LV fall, and I have not doubt his family must have helped 
him, much to his humiliation I suspect, he was only 26 after all.  In 
the mean time Lucius has gone on to rise in power himself, using his 
intelligence, his political savvy, his ruthlessness and his cruelty. 
Using dark magic learned and practiced under LV himself I suspect.  

Lucius has done very well for himself during LV absence, without 
doing anything to look for his former Dark Lord. LV has a right to be 
angery and suspicious of Lucius motives.  But I wonder if it was 
Malfoy's near Azkaban experience that so scared the 26 year old pure 
blood, that he stepped back away from LV.  Hagrid was scared enough 
of the thought of the prison, and wizards were doing desperate things 
to avoid going there.  It is not like any prison we know.  Lucius' 
choice must have seemed clear at the time.  However he must have 
known of the risk he was taking, no one leaves LV. But then again it 
was LV who left them, or at least made it easy to forget him.  So 
Lucius set about making himself as powerful as he could, so he would 
never be venerable again, and in doing so, he made himself 
untouchable and indispencible.

I expect when he discovered LV had returned it must have scared the 
crap out of him, although I sure he suspected it coming for a long 
time.  It could only have been out of fear for his very life that 
Lucius Malfoy appeared at Tom Riddle's grave that night. He simply 
had no choice, but of course he wouldn't ever show it. But LV was 
right, Lucius did nothing to find him during his absence. Lucius has 
a lot to answer for in LV opinion.  With the one exception the diary 
it must have appeared to LV that Lucius had indeed abandoned him.  

I wonder about Lucius motivations with the Diary incident?  And why 
now, after 12 years did Malfoy seem to change his tune about looking 
for LV?  Did he realize it was only a matter of time before LV 
returned in the flesh, and that he (Malfoy) had better do something, 
quick?  Did the diary suddenly resurface for Malfoy to use?  Or was 
Malfoy now in a position to be able to 'handle' LV return? 

I think it's the latter choice.  I think that before CoS, Lucius 
Malfoy had maneuvered himself in to a position in the WW where he 
was 'safe'.  He has covered his bases so to speak.  If LV never 
returned Lucius was just fine.  But if LV did return, then Lucius 
Malfoy was in a solid power position within the MoM that no other DE 
could match, and LV would have no choice but to want to keep Lucius 
around.  Voldemort's use of the word 'slippery' in describing Lucius 
is clever and indicative, I believe it points to the fact that LV 
would really like to torture Malfoy to death, but his hands are 
tied.  Lucius is far too important with in the Ministry to touch, and 
LV knows this.

Of course Malfoy now is in Azkaban. So how useful is Lucius going to 
be to LV now?  I hope for Malfoy's sake he has a lot of favors to 
call on in the MoM, and with the coming shake-up at the Ministry his 
allies are still around for him to use.  Otherwise...I think Lucius 
Malfoy will quickly become redundant and LV will have no choice but 
to kill him.

I don't know if that answers any of you questions but perhaps it food 
for thought. Let me know what you think. And thank you for giving me 
the opportunity to write about my one of my favorite characters. ;-)

cheers Mandy
  




From stevejjen at earthlink.net  Thu Mar 11 15:48:17 2004
From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 15:48:17 -0000
Subject: Tom Riddle's Birth (Re: JKR Chat  "The Crucial ...")
In-Reply-To: <c2pgap+ubuu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2q1o1+8doo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92737

> Naama wrote: 
> > JKR is clearly portraying Harry and Tom as very similar in their 
> > basic nature and temperament (outward appearance, talented, 
brave, 
> > ambitious, charismatic). However, who they become is (or will 
be) 
> the 
> > opposite poles of good and evil. I'm wondering whether we 
> shouldn't 
> > apply this basic opposition to their very beginning as babies. 
If 
> > Harry received the gift of love from his mother, maybe Tom 
> received a 
> > gift of hate? 
> > What if his mother, before she died, did indeed cast some kind 
of 
> > protective charm on him, but it was based not on her love for 
him, 
> > but on her hatred of his father? 


David:
> I have some difficulty with this, because it doesn't in my opinion 
> fit very well with the theme of choice.  If Riddle was cursed at 
> birth then, technically he may not have been born evil, but in the 
> wider context, it's as good as.  In the HP-verse, if Riddle 
followed 
> the path from good (or at least not-evil) to evil, then I think 
the 
> dominant influence would have been his own choices, not the 
actions 
> of others.


Jen: I think a curse of hate (or whatever would be the opposite of 
Lily's love sacrifice) doesn't have to negate the choice theory. 

Harry could easily have turned into a different person despite the 
circumstances of his birth. The ground was certainly fertile for him 
to become a spiteful, hateful person after so little nurturing and 
support. That was one of the risks DD must have considered in 
leaving Harry with the Dursleys. 

TR on the other hand, certainly had many natural strengths and had 
the opportunity to escape his past 'imprisonment' when he received 
the letter to Hogwarts. He chose the path of revenge and hate when 
offered the opportunity for a different life. 

It just seems like if a curse on TR negates choice, then the love 
sacrifice on Harry would do the same.

OTOH, while I like the parallels Naama draws above I'm not certain 
it would make the point about choices as well as other 
possibilities. More effective would be if TR had a similar love 
sacrifice at birth, then spiraled off into the direction of evil by 
his own choices. Then LV and Harry would truly be in opposition.

Jen Reese




From lizvega2 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 11 15:54:11 2004
From: lizvega2 at yahoo.com (lizvega2)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 15:54:11 -0000
Subject: The Dudley Theory
In-Reply-To: <c2onv1+1la7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2q233+rp4d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92738

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "suehpfan" <stanleys at s...> 
wrote:
>   Ms. Figg knowing that the cold and darkness--the 
> *feeling* 
> > was liekly atrributal to Dementors and knowing the fact that 
> > Dementors exist, might be all one needs to *know* to *see* 
them.  
> > 
> > Arya
> 
> "Dementors are among the foulest creatures that walk this earth.  
> They infest the darkest, filthiest places, they glory in decay and 
> despair, they drain peace, hope and happiness out of the air 
around 
> them.  Even Muggles feel their presence, *though they can't see 
> them*."(emphasis mine, PoA US paperback pg 187) 
> 
> This is how Lupin describes Dementors.  Given the fact that we now 
> know he is a half blood, I would think we can take his word for it.
> 
> Sue, who is not trying to be a pain, just doesn't want Dudley to 
> *ever* be able to challenge/hurt/hex Harry again.

LizVega with a short reply:

The person who is supposed to be able to do magic later in life is 
only supposed to be able to do it under desperate circumstances, 
according to Jo. If Dudley is this person, I doubt those 
circumstances would include hexing Harry. 

And, I wonder if this person will be using a wand? or if it will be 
unfocused magic? 

<Hoping this is who you're describing, trying to decipher if Dudley 
could be the one to do magic later in life> If not, sorry. :)

 




From lizvega2 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 11 16:33:55 2004
From: lizvega2 at yahoo.com (lizvega2)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 16:33:55 -0000
Subject: Malfoy/Karkaroff/ Imprisoned DE's
In-Reply-To: <c2q1k9+m850@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2q4dj+1c5d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92739

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" 
<rredordead at a...> wrote:
> > Susan wrote:
> > Mandy, something in your post really struck me, and I wonder if 
> >it's okay to ask you (and/or others) to go off on a little 
tangent?  
> > You believe Malfoy to be intelligent [so do I] and the kind of 
guy 
> >to have been able to peg a traitor rather quickly.  You also 
wonder 
> >how much power Malfoy would have had at the time of Voldy's 
> >downfall.  
> > This all makes me wonder about Lucius....  
> > We know that Lucius stayed true to the dark arts during Voldy's 
> > absence, and we know he hung onto some artifacts which he had to 
> > quickly get rid of when the Ministry raids began, and that he 
had 
> > Riddle's diary to slip into Ginny's cauldron.  What do you all 
> >think about how *loyal* he was to Voldy during those "down" 
years?  
> >And how loyal now?  
> >  Is he on his own side or is he Voldy's right-hand man, ready 
> >to  die for the cause?  What do you all think?
> 
LizVega interrupting and snipping a great post...my apologies:

I'm thinking of all the DE's that were sent away the first time LV 
disapeared. With the one possible exception of the Lestranges, and 
Bella in particular, the ones we saw did everything in their power 
to get out, or stay out of Azkaban. Karkaroff named names, Ludo (No 
proof that he was a DE) played dumb, and Snape switched sides- I'm 
not going off on a Snape issue now because we have no idea what his 
intention truly were or are! 

Here's my question: of all the DE's that were sent to prison in OOP- 
Malfoy, the Lestranges minus Bella, Crabb, Nott, Avery, and the 
rest, How many of them will choose to save their own skin, and 
perhaps give info. to the ministry? I've always been under the 
impression that LV would swoosh into Azkaban, and save his minions- 
but that's not really his style, is it? He didn't seem that 
interested in trying to save anyone but himself and Bella in the MOM-
 Weren't we told that LV is just as ruthless where his supporters 
are concerned as with his enemies? 
> 
> Mandy here:
> Hi Susan.  I have at times thought about all the points you bring 
up 
> and my conclusion, (which is always ready to be proved wrong) is 
that 
> Malfoy is working for Malfoy alone.  That LV was useful for Lucius 
> when he was a young and impressionable man, but now Malfoy's own 
> arrogance rivals that of LV himself. I see Lucius considering LV a 
> nuisance, but a necessary evil in ridding the WW of those Lucius 
> doesn't consider worthy to be there.  I believe Lucius has the 
> stomach, desire and ability to carry out mass murder, but he will 
not 
> get his hands dirty, or tarnish his reputation, if there is an 
Evil 
> Overlord, with DE, to do it for him.  In other words Lucius is 
using 
> LV, just as LV is using Lucius.  Unfortunalty if you make a deal 
with 
> the devil....you will end up dead.  If Lucius isn't careful it's 
> going to be LV that eventually kills him (for his will be dead by 
the 
> end of book 7) and not one of the good guys. 
> 
> I think Lucius Malfoy never completely believed that LV was truly 
> killed by Harry Potter, and would one day come back.  LV had spent 
> many years researching how to cheat death, I think Lucius knew 
this. 
> 
> After the fall, Lucius did what he had to do to prevent 
imprisonment 
> in Azkaban, and subsequently enjoyed great personal success 
without 
> LV.  This sets up an interesting conflict of interest for our 
Lucius 
> Malfoy: Lucius knows in his soul, LV isn't really dead and has the 
> potential to return one day, yet his return means consequences 
that 
> Lucius doesn't want to deal with.  
> 
> I think Lucius joined the DE when he way quite young, perhaps 
still 
> in school, at 17-18, possibly to branch away from his own family.  
> Heirs of very wealthy parents are often disenfranchised, lost 
> children looking for a purpose in life, and I think LV gave Lucius 
a 
> purpose that suited his needs and sensibilities.  LV steadily rose 
to 
> power and brought Lucius with him, until LV fell at Harry's hands, 
15 
> years ago. (In WW time.)  Lucius had to do a lot of scrambling to 
> survive LV fall, and I have not doubt his family must have helped 
> him, much to his humiliation I suspect, he was only 26 after all.  
In 
> the mean time Lucius has gone on to rise in power himself, using 
his 
> intelligence, his political savvy, his ruthlessness and his 
cruelty. 
> Using dark magic learned and practiced under LV himself I 
suspect.  
> 
> Lucius has done very well for himself during LV absence, without 
> doing anything to look for his former Dark Lord. LV has a right to 
be 
> angery and suspicious of Lucius motives.  But I wonder if it was 
> Malfoy's near Azkaban experience that so scared the 26 year old 
pure 
> blood, that he stepped back away from LV.  Hagrid was scared 
enough 
> of the thought of the prison, and wizards were doing desperate 
things 
> to avoid going there.  It is not like any prison we know.  Lucius' 
> choice must have seemed clear at the time.  However he must have 
> known of the risk he was taking, no one leaves LV. But then again 
it 
> was LV who left them, or at least made it easy to forget him.  So 
> Lucius set about making himself as powerful as he could, so he 
would 
> never be venerable again, and in doing so, he made himself 
> untouchable and indispencible.
> 
> I expect when he discovered LV had returned it must have scared 
the 
> crap out of him, although I sure he suspected it coming for a long 
> time.  It could only have been out of fear for his very life that 
> Lucius Malfoy appeared at Tom Riddle's grave that night. He simply 
> had no choice, but of course he wouldn't ever show it. But LV was 
> right, Lucius did nothing to find him during his absence. Lucius 
has 
> a lot to answer for in LV opinion.  With the one exception the 
diary 
> it must have appeared to LV that Lucius had indeed abandoned him.  
> 
> I wonder about Lucius motivations with the Diary incident?  And 
why 
> now, after 12 years did Malfoy seem to change his tune about 
looking 
> for LV?  Did he realize it was only a matter of time before LV 
> returned in the flesh, and that he (Malfoy) had better do 
something, 
> quick?  Did the diary suddenly resurface for Malfoy to use?  Or 
was 
> Malfoy now in a position to be able to 'handle' LV return? 
> 
> I think it's the latter choice.  I think that before CoS, Lucius 
> Malfoy had maneuvered himself in to a position in the WW where he 
> was 'safe'.  He has covered his bases so to speak.  If LV never 
> returned Lucius was just fine.  But if LV did return, then Lucius 
> Malfoy was in a solid power position within the MoM that no other 
DE 
> could match, and LV would have no choice but to want to keep 
Lucius 
> around.  Voldemort's use of the word 'slippery' in describing 
Lucius 
> is clever and indicative, I believe it points to the fact that LV 
> would really like to torture Malfoy to death, but his hands are 
> tied.  Lucius is far too important with in the Ministry to touch, 
and 
> LV knows this.
> 
> Of course Malfoy now is in Azkaban. So how useful is Lucius going 
to 
> be to LV now?  I hope for Malfoy's sake he has a lot of favors to 
> call on in the MoM, and with the coming shake-up at the Ministry 
his 
> allies are still around for him to use.  Otherwise...I think 
Lucius 
> Malfoy will quickly become redundant and LV will have no choice 
but 
> to kill him.
> 
> I don't know if that answers any of you questions but perhaps it 
food 
> for thought. Let me know what you think. And thank you for giving 
me 
> the opportunity to write about my one of my favorite characters. ;-
)
> 
> cheers Mandy




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Mar 11 16:38:44 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 16:38:44 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Harry and Hermione together per JKR chat?
In-Reply-To: <c2pq4e+va75@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2q4mk+m8bf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92740


> Annemehr:
> Well, Pippin, apparently you're reading an abridged version! 
<jk>
> 
> Before the part you cited, when everyone is supposed to be 
going back to their dormitories per Dumbledore's orders:
> 
> ---------------------
> They passed different groups of people hurrying in different
> directions.  As they jostled their way through a crowd of 
confused Hufflepuffs, Harry suddenly grabbed Ron's arm.
> 
> "I've just thought -- Hermione."
> 
> "What about her?"
> 
> "She doesn't know about the troll."
> 
> Ron bit his lip.
> 
> "Oh, all right," he snapped.  "But Percy'd better not see us."
> ------------------------
> 
> And off they go to look for Hermione (Ron suprisingly reluctant,
> actually).

Harry is a little quicker on the uptake than Ron but that doesn't 
prove that he cares more about Hermione.

One could argue that Ron is reluctant because he knows that 
what they *should* do is tell Percy and let him take care of it. But 
he doesn't  want Percy to find out why Hermione is off by herself 
crying in the first place...and neither does Harry. Both of them feel 
responsible for that. It was Ron who insulted her, but Hermione 
was also hurt that Harry didn't stick up for her, as we can 
surmise from her complaint in PoA that he always takes Ron's 
side. 

Pippin





From falkelihu at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 11 13:25:08 2004
From: falkelihu at yahoo.com (Elihu Falk)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 05:25:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: P is the letter of good; R is the letter of bad
Message-ID: <20040311132508.94618.qmail@web61105.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92741

The letter P seems to be associated, usually, with the good guys, such as:
a) Harry Potter (and his mother, who died to save him - did she know about the Prophecy? 
b) Albus Dumbledore - in OP, we learn that one of his middle names is Percival
c) Sibyl P Trelawney - her prophecy seems to be the cause of "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord"[OP].
d) Did you notice that a number of times Harry mentions Snape to Dumbledore, and Dumbledore corrected him to Proffessor Snape? I think he was trying to tell Harry "You might not realize this, but he, to, is a P"
e) Padfoot and Prongs.
f) The Order of the Phoenix
 
This also might explain why Rowling chose to call Wormtail by that name, as opposed to Peter Pettigrew, in GF and OP. He probably started out a good guy, and in PA, when everyone thinks of him as such, he is called by his name. According to What's in a Name, Wormtail is an appropriate name for a spy on the good guys. 
 
A few other possible points:
a) What will happen with Percy Weasley? Will he join the war against LV? from his personality, as shown in the books, it would seem that he would do a good job.
b) Is Pansey Parkinson an enemy? Maybe she's also a good guy, and will eventually show this.
 
Similarly, the letter R seems to be associated with the bad guys:
a)  Tom Marvolo Riddle
b)  Rabastan and Rudolphus Lestrange
c)  Augustus Rookwood
 
Please note that not all R's are actually bad guys. Remus Lupin is fine, but when he becomes a wolf in PA, that allows Wormtail to escape. And I haven't yet found anything wrong with Ron Weasley or Rubeus Hagrid.





Elihu

---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Search - Find what you?re looking for faster.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





From capehoneysuckle at earthlink.net  Thu Mar 11 16:58:58 2004
From: capehoneysuckle at earthlink.net (capehoneysuckle)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 16:58:58 -0000
Subject: The Dudley Theory
In-Reply-To: <c2q233+rp4d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2q5si+r6d1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92742

Jumping into this thread, I wonder if Dudley did see the dementors in
the alley. Initially, Harry did not see them approach because it was
too dark. "Harry stood stock-still, turning his sightless eyes left
and right." (OOP, Am Ed p. 16) and then on the same page, "He would
hear them before he saw them." Dudley hits Harry and runs away, while
it is still dark, inadvertently running toward the sound of the
dementor, and tripping in the darkness. By the time Harry has lit his
wand and sees Dudley, "Dudley was curled on the ground, his arms
clamped over his face;" (p. 18)

Later, Dudley tells his parents, "And then I h-heard...things. Inside
m-my head..." (p. 30) Lupin's description of dementors says that
muggles can *feel* the presence of dementors, but they can't see them.
It seems to me that Dudley actually hearing voices might be a bit more
than the typical muggle reaction to dementors, which seems more like
an inexplicable attack of sadness. Dudley covering his face with his
arms also seems like an attempt to ward off the dementor, almost as if
he saw it.

I don't think it is clear one way or the other if Dudley could see the
dementors, but I think it is a possibility. The episode in the alley
could be supportive of the "magical Dudley" theory.

Just a thought.
Honey




From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Thu Mar 11 18:28:41 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 18:28:41 -0000
Subject: Dudley's Worst Memory
In-Reply-To: <20040311072017.19942.qmail@web14108.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c2qb4p+t6mt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92743

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, tyler maroney <tmar78 at y...> 
wrote:
> Carol:
> Either of those incidents would seem pretty terrible
> from pampered Dudley's perspective.
> 
> Tyler:
> I have a funny feeling its gonna be something more
> traumatic than that.  What if Dudley has been
> physically abused at some point in his life and he was
> forced to relive that?  Not sexually,  but maybe there
> was an adult who used to smack him around when he was
> little and it scared him so much he was afraid to say
> anything even to Uncle Vernon.  I've always had this
> feeling that Dudley must've been abused in some
> fashion;  it would help explain alot.  Abused children
> often grow up to be abusive teenagers and later
> abusive adults.


I tend to agree that if the worst thing that happened to Dudley was 
already written, JKR would have said so in the chat on the fourth.  
Because the oppressed always know the oppressor better than the 
oppressor knows the oppressed, I think we can assume Harry pretty 
much knew everything that was going on with Dudley up until he left 
for Hogwarts.  Harry seems to know every sound in the house and be 
able to read Dudley (Vernon and Petunia too, for that matter).  I 
tend to think Dudley's worst memories probably come from his years at 
Smeltings.  You can be the meanest fat kid on the block but your 
still the fat kid and there was no one at school to protect him from 
himself (or the bigger, meaner bullies at school). 

Scene: Dudley in a long line of boys waiting to be checked by the 
nurse.  In a large room with a scale in the middle 11 year old Dudley 
stands on the scale and his weight is announced for the secretary to 
write down.  I just don't think boarding school is such a great place 
for a big, fat, bullying kid who has never had to fight his own 
battles.

My two cents,
Sue




From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Thu Mar 11 18:40:01 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 18:40:01 -0000
Subject: Snape&Karkaroff... and a third party?
In-Reply-To: <20040311123914.25243.qmail@web12201.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c2qbq1+2n69@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92744

nkittyhawk97 at y...> wrote:
> > In the quote on page 651 of the US GoF containing,
> > "One, too 
> > cowardly to return" and "One who I believe has left
> > me forever" has 
> > never, in my eyes, had any room LEFT for
> > speculation.
snip
> I have thought about it and think this. (Thinking
> being key to this response)
> 
> If Voldemort is really that good, then he is a
> thinker. While I do not believe it was his presentable
> intention to leave Harry alive after his return party,
> I also think he wanted Harry to live in a small sense.
> I mean, how else is 14 year-old boy going to defeat
> all those men? It was far too easy for Harry to
> escape. Also, why else would the portkey have a return
> setting if not for someone to return?
> 
> Voldemort, with the knowledge that Harry might/should
> get away, refrained from mentioning Snape in order to
> keep his spy safe. He would not know that Snape is
> Dumbledore's spy, as only Karakoff knew Snape was the
> spy and he did not tell the Death Eaters or Voldemort,
> nor that he would reveal himself later. As for the
> mark still burning, it is possible that it burns for
> sometime after the meeting, hence his ability to show
> Fudge. We just don't know enough about the mark to
> make the judgement if Snape was at the meeting or not
> because of the mark.
> 
> Chris $0.02

Here is another possibility (states Sue, sitting bolt upright on the 
fence yet again and thinking hard).  What it Snape followed Harry to 
the Graveyard wearing an invisibility cloak.  His mark burned, he 
knew where they all were and he had to assume that the missing Harry 
and Cedric were there as well.  Snape then could have fixed the cup 
to take Harry back to school (if he survived) and later born witness 
to DD about the truth of everything Harry saw and heard, perhaps even 
adding the names of the DE's Harry did not know.

Ponder, Ponder,
Sue




From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Thu Mar 11 19:08:14 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 19:08:14 -0000
Subject: On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
In-Reply-To: <c2ptah+60sh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2qdeu+ce1t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92745

> <snip  of posts by Geoff and Del>
> 
> Annemehr:
snip
> When Hagrid was trying to get Harry to believe he was a wizard, he
> said "Never made things happen when you was scared or angry?"  It's
> the Dursleys who've been making Harry scared and angry enough to do
> reflexive magic.
> 
>snip of Kneazy's post
> Annemehr:
> snip
> I'll give you Dursley defenders the fact that they were *afraid* of
> taking in a wizard child.  But Harry would not have been constantly
> causing catastrophes in their lives; he grew up looking normal 
enough
> that he was able to roam the neighborhood and go to school and the
> secret never got out.  Nobody ever suspected a thing.  Besides, they
> weren't afraid to let their son hit Harry, and they weren't afraid 
to
> lock Harry into a cupboard.  The Dursleys could not have been living
> in such a constant state of terror that they were *unable* to see 
the
> innocent child who was living with them.
> 
> The thing that makes me dislike the elder Dursleys is that they 
could
> live with Harry for ten *years* by the beginning of PS/SS and never
> soften toward him at all.  That is extremely cold-hearted. 
snip> 
> Annemehr
> who wishes Umbridge and Luna would have come up in the Chat

Two things about these posts:

1.  All of the spoiling, coddling and babying the Dursleys did for 
Dudley never stopped him from getting angry.  As a matter of fact, 
most children (Dudley included) who live in indulgent homes become 
very angry people.  It works, they know all they have to do is get a 
little peeved and they get their way.  They also tend to grow up very 
fearful of people who are not in their circle.  Dudley may have been 
able to scare his friends, but I promise, he would have run up 
against at least *one* formidable teacher who would not have been 
afraid to tell the little Dudykins no.  I am sure he became quite as 
angry and/or afraid as Harry on more than one occaision. If there had 
been magic to use it would have come up.  

2.   The image of the baby Harry at the Dursley's is a very painful 
one for me.  I cannot imagine the depravity of two adults in a house 
with a parentless *baby* not being willing to meet his needs (both 
physical and emotional).  There is no excuse.  No level of fear 
creates a situation which can in anyway excuse this behavior.  

IMO, the Dursleys are awful.  That said, I would not be surprised if 
Petunia and Dudley do a little bit to redeem themselves before the 
end.  Vernon? Impossible.
Sue 




From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Thu Mar 11 19:20:53 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 19:20:53 -0000
Subject: The Dudley Theory
In-Reply-To: <c2q233+rp4d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2qe6l+jomv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92746

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lizvega2" <lizvega2 at y...> 
wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "suehpfan" <stanleys at s...> 
> wrote:
> >   Ms. Figg knowing that the cold and darkness--the 
> > *feeling* 
> > > was liekly atrributal to Dementors and knowing the fact that 
> > > Dementors exist, might be all one needs to *know* to *see* 
> them.  
> > > 
> > > Arya
> > 
> > "Dementors are among the foulest creatures that walk this earth.  
> > They infest the darkest, filthiest places, they glory in decay 
and 
> > despair, they drain peace, hope and happiness out of the air 
> around 
> > them.  Even Muggles feel their presence, *though they can't see 
> > them*."(emphasis mine, PoA US paperback pg 187) 
> > 
> > This is how Lupin describes Dementors.  Given the fact that we 
now 
> > know he is a half blood, I would think we can take his word for 
it.
> > 
> > Sue, who is not trying to be a pain, just doesn't want Dudley to 
> > *ever* be able to challenge/hurt/hex Harry again.
> 
> LizVega with a short reply:
> 
> The person who is supposed to be able to do magic later in life is 
> only supposed to be able to do it under desperate circumstances, 
> according to Jo. If Dudley is this person, I doubt those 
> circumstances would include hexing Harry. 
> 
> And, I wonder if this person will be using a wand? or if it will be 
> unfocused magic? 
> 
> <Hoping this is who you're describing, trying to decipher if Dudley 
> could be the one to do magic later in life> If not, sorry. :)

I was indeed talking about the "one who will do magic much later in 
life".  I am such a prolific snipper sometimes I probably take out 
too much.  I had much trouble with the list elves in the beginning, 
not snipping enough.  Any way... It seems to me that someone who is 
about to suck out your soul is a pretty "desperate" situation.  

I am responding, though, to the wand question.  In my minds eye, I 
see a colapsed Harry somewhere between Mrs. Figgs home and #4 being 
defended by Mrs. Figg.  As I think about it I imagine Mrs. Figg 
picking up the wand and using it to defend Harry.  This seems more 
likely to me than wandless magic for some reason.  Mrs. Figg, having 
been around the WW her whole life, would be likely to know a few 
spells even if she never made them work before.  I can also see Mrs. 
Figg using only her hands to give Harry enough time to get to his 
wand.  

It is such fun to think about.  Really, I can't wait.
Sue




From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Thu Mar 11 19:30:04 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 19:30:04 -0000
Subject: Malfoy/Karkaroff/ Imprisoned DE's
In-Reply-To: <c2q4dj+1c5d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2qens+s4cr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92747

Snip of Susan's post> LizVega interrupting and snipping a great 
post...my apologies:
snip> 
> Here's my question: of all the DE's that were sent to prison in OOP-
 
> Malfoy, the Lestranges minus Bella, Crabb, Nott, Avery, and the 
> rest, How many of them will choose to save their own skin, and 
> perhaps give info. to the ministry? I've always been under the 
> impression that LV would swoosh into Azkaban, and save his minions- 
> but that's not really his style, is it? He didn't seem that 
> interested in trying to save anyone but himself and Bella in the 
MOM-
>  Weren't we told that LV is just as ruthless where his supporters 
> are concerned as with his enemies? 
> > 
Snip of Mandy's post

Sue responds:
I think the key to this question is that the DE's who were sent to 
Azkaban and/or recanted their allegiance to Voldemort did so after 
his downfall.  They had no other option, there was no Darklord to go 
back to at that time. 

This time is different.  Voldemort is at full power and ready to 
fight.  As far as the incident at the MoM is concerned, Voldemort had 
to get out of there, he had to go so he himself wasn't caught.  He 
took Bellatrix simply because she was close to him.  He would have 
been putting himself in jeapordy if he were to go to the Death 
Chamber and try to free the others.  

As far as his ruthlessness, we only have to look at his words "I will 
deal with you later."  "I did not come here to listen to your 
sniveling appologies." etc.  All of the DE's were in *big* trouble, 
some of them may even rather stay in Azkaban than go back, but of 
course not going back means certain death.  As far as any of them 
giving information, we shall see.  Although I doubt it.

My thoughts,
Sue




From norek_archives2 at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 11 19:53:59 2004
From: norek_archives2 at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 19:53:59 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Harry and Hermione - how about a random love
 interest?
Message-ID: <BAY2-F148xLYxrwZnTc00033790@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92748

>Ditto for the above! I still think that there is a possiblility of a
>more random love interest for Harry - what about Fleur's little
>sister all grown up now?

Wasn't she about eight years old during GoF?  If she becomes Harry's love 
interest it will be long after the books' timeline is over.


And wouldn't she be more likely to go to Beauxbatons than to Hogwarts, and 
therefore have a different social circle than Harry (unless they got 
together through Fleur, or if Fleur's romance with Bill works out)?


Janet Anderson

_________________________________________________________________
Learn how to help protect your privacy and prevent fraud online at Tech 
Hacks & Scams. http://special.msn.com/msnbc/techsafety.armx




From lizvega2 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 11 20:05:05 2004
From: lizvega2 at yahoo.com (lizvega2)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 20:05:05 -0000
Subject: The Dudley Theory
In-Reply-To: <c2qe6l+jomv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2qgph+ie70@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92749

LizVega wrote:

> --- > > And, I wonder if this person will be using a wand? or if 
it will be 
> > unfocused magic? 
> > 
> > <Hoping this is who you're describing, trying to decipher if 
Dudley 
> > could be the one to do magic later in life> If not, sorry. :)

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "suehpfan" <stanleys at s...> 
wrote:
 
> I was indeed talking about the "one who will do magic much later 
in 
> life".  I am such a prolific snipper sometimes I probably take out 
> too much.  I had much trouble with the list elves in the 
beginning, 
> not snipping enough.  Any way... It seems to me that someone who 
is 
> about to suck out your soul is a pretty "desperate" situation.  
> 
> I am responding, though, to the wand question.  In my minds eye, I 
> see a colapsed Harry somewhere between Mrs. Figgs home and #4 
being 
> defended by Mrs. Figg.  As I think about it I imagine Mrs. Figg 
> picking up the wand and using it to defend Harry.  This seems more 
> likely to me than wandless magic for some reason.  Mrs. Figg, 
having 
> been around the WW her whole life, would be likely to know a few 
> spells even if she never made them work before.  I can also see 
Mrs. 
> Figg using only her hands to give Harry enough time to get to his 
> wand.  
> 
> It is such fun to think about.  Really, I can't wait.

> Sue

LizVega:

Agreed! When I read the quote from Jo about the person only being 
able to do magic in desperate circumstances it reminded me of the 
wandless magic that children do when they're angry or scared before 
they acquire a wand or any training. Hence, the wand question! I 
like the image of Figgy grabbing Harry's wand and using it to 
protect him. Putting the Dursley's in the same scenario, I can't 
imagine anyone but Petunia being bold enough to grab it- I wonder if 
she remembers any of the spells that Lilly did when she was changing 
a rat into teacups! Hmmmm... Petunia changing a rat into a teacup! 
Wormtail anyone?




From alexpie at aol.com  Thu Mar 11 20:06:01 2004
From: alexpie at aol.com (alexpie at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 15:06:01 EST
Subject: Dudley's Worst Memory
Message-ID: <92.584ebb3.2d8220a9@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92750

I always assumed it would have been the day Harry appeared on the Dursleys' 
doorstep.
Ba


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From topfor at aol.com  Thu Mar 11 13:59:32 2004
From: topfor at aol.com (smtopliff)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 13:59:32 -0000
Subject: The Dudley Theory
In-Reply-To: <c2onv1+1la7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2prc4+kuac@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92751

Sue wrote:
> Aha!  Happy day.  Mrs. Figg (apparently) saw the Dementors. 
> We know Harry and other magical people can see them for sure. 
> Dudley did not see the Dementors.  In fact, he ran right at 
> one of them trying to get away and only described the incident 
> as feeling "cold, really cold."   OotP US pg. 31.  Therefore, 
> he cannot be magical.  


Having re-read the "Dudley Demented" chapter of OOP and the following 
chapter "A Pack of Owls," I came to the conclusion that there is no 
direct wording that states conclusively that Dudley did not see 
Dementors.  If he is running blind through the dark, maybe looking 
over his shoulder while he is running, it is entirely likely that he 
never saw the approach of a Dementor; or perhaps he saw the Dementor 
over Harry's shoulder and did not realize there was a second one in 
the alley.  Dudley actually does state that he "heard...things. 
Inside my head...) (Am.ed. p.30), which contradicts what Lupin said 
about Dementors in POA.  Lupin asserted that Muggles can FEEL 
dementors, but never elaborated further as to whether Muggles HEAR 
voices --sorry, don't have POA with me; Lupin was explaining 
Dementors to Harry when he was teaching him the Patronus Charm in his 
DDA classroom.  So, my impression is that the question still is 
unanswered--does Dudders have *the power!* or is he a boring old 
Muggle?  
 
One more burning question--who and when and where did Petunia hear 
tell of Azkaban and Dementors?  She never elaborated in "A Pack of 
Owls"  pg.32 Am.ed.--somebody ain't tellin' somethin', and I wanna 
know!

smt.





From kreneeb at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 11 20:37:56 2004
From: kreneeb at hotmail.com (hermionekitten9)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 20:37:56 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Harry and Hermione - how about a random love interest?
Message-ID: <c2qin4+d7jr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92752


>Ditto for the above! I still think that there is a possiblility of a
>more random love interest for Harry - what about Fleur's little
>sister all grown up now?

Janet said
>Wasn't she about eight years old during GoF? If she becomes Harry's 
>love
>interest it will be long after the books' timeline is over.


>And wouldn't she be more likely to go to Beauxbatons than to 
>Hogwarts, and
>therefore have a different social circle than Harry (unless they got
>together through Fleur, or if Fleur's romance with Bill works out)?

Kitten says
I don't think its going to be Fleur's little sister, she's much too 
young. I'm not sure if she was eight in GOF, If she was eight then 
maybe well see her in the seventh book. (She should be eleven then 
and ready for Hogwarts... if she goes to Hogwarts)

I love the thought of a random love interest for Harry, but hopes 
its someone already at Hogwarts, Like Lisa T, Susan B, Hannah A, or 
one of the hundreds (or thousands) of nameless students that pass by 
Harry everyday. I think it would be a great way to learn about the 
other houses at Hogwarts, which would go nicely with the houses 
united theme, and it would be a lot more interesting to see someone 
develop into a major character and become close to Harry, then if he 
was just paired up with Hermione or Ginny.

Kitten
Who likes Ron/Hermione, but refuses to just throw Harry to Ginny 
just because she's convenient.





From Ladycat16 at aol.com  Thu Mar 11 14:59:07 2004
From: Ladycat16 at aol.com (Ladycat16 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 09:59:07 EST
Subject: LV as Blofeld/Dr Evil?
Message-ID: <8e.57dde22.2d81d8bb@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92753

Hey everyone. My name is Tiffany, I am a very huge HP fan, more than I should 
be, as my boyfriend says. Anyways, I haven't been a member long I just wanted 
to comment on this. If I'm out of line give me a note.


nymphadora1 at yahoo.com writes:
> Why did Voldie free him and give him his wand back so he 
> could duel with him?
> This strikes me as being totally out of character for 
> you-know-who. He's tried to kill Harry three times, once as a baby when he 
> should have been totally defenseless, and failed. Why would LV give Harry 
> the opportunity to fight back?

Well, here is my perspective, I think it's really not out of character. He (LV) 
has something to prove, that he is the greatest wizard. Yes, he has tried to 
kill Harry a lot and he didn't do so well. But he is not one to give up and 
take the easy way out. He knows he has something to prove, and he will prove 
it. 

Killing while he is down really isn't the way LV would want to win, but that 
is just my idea. I know that Harry was a baby when LV first tried and he 
(Harry) was "defenseless", but that was because he couldn't risk having Harry rise about him. Now he has the hunger for Harry.

Well, there it is please feel free to reply.

TStrebin




From armadillof at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 11 18:45:13 2004
From: armadillof at yahoo.com (armadillof)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 18:45:13 -0000
Subject: The Dudley Theory
In-Reply-To: <c2q5si+r6d1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2qc3p+lvji@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92754

Honey wrote:
> The episode in the alley
> could be supportive of the "magical Dudley" theory.

I think it's much more likely Dudley is a squib.  Otherwise he would 
have likely been able to get rid of the pig-tail himself by sheer 
emotion....not to forget the ton-tongue toffee!

AF




From weirdsister06 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 11 19:32:45 2004
From: weirdsister06 at yahoo.com (weirdsister06)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 19:32:45 -0000
Subject: Snape in the graveyard
In-Reply-To: <c2qbq1+2n69@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2qest+15ve@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92755

Sue wrote: 

What it Snape followed Harry to the Graveyard wearing an 
invisibility cloak.  His mark burned, he knew where they all were 
and he had to assume that the missing Harry and Cedric were there as 
well.  Snape then could have fixed the cup to take Harry back to 
school (if he survived) and later born witness to DD about the truth 
of everything Harry saw and heard, perhaps even adding the names of 
the DE's Harry did not know.
> 

There are questions about Snape and the graveyard, to be sure.  He 
must have had an excellent cover story for Voldemort since he didn't 
show up when the mark first burned.  In relation to Sue's theory, I 
have two additional questions: does Voldemort share DD's 
ability to see through invisibility cloaks, and does Snape share 
DD's ability to become invisible without a cloak?

weirdsister06





From tipgardner at netscape.net  Thu Mar 11 19:36:57 2004
From: tipgardner at netscape.net (tipgardner)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 19:36:57 -0000
Subject: Malfoy/Karkaroff
In-Reply-To: <c2q1k9+m850@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2qf4p+sbf7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92756

Mandy wrote:
> We know that Lucius stayed true to the dark arts during Voldy's 
> absence, and we know he hung onto some artifacts which he had to 
> quickly get rid of when the Ministry raids began, and that he had 
> Riddle's diary to slip into Ginny's cauldron.  What do you all 
> think about how *loyal* he was to Voldy during those "down" years?  
> And how loyal now?

I had a couple of thoughts inspired by your interesting post Mandy. 
One is that I tend to think Lucius gives me the impression of loyalty
to himself, but also an understanding of his place, willing or
otherwise, in the pecking order of the group with whom he has chosen
to associate.  Is he loyal to LV as well?  I think he is in his own,
self-interested way.

Another thought was your concept of Lucius rising to power and
achieving success with the help of LV.  I believe that the text gives
a distinct impression of the Malfoy family as being wealthy, powerful
and old.  That makes me think that Lucius didn't need LV, he believed
in the cause, etc., at least when he was younger.  I do think that he
and LV have many of the same goals.  I also think that Malfoy's
position because of his family's standing, independent of anything LV
may or may not have helped him achieve, is highly useful to LV.  I'm
not sure how his imprisonment would help with that, but as he does not
appear to have named names or betrayed LV in some other way, he should
be all right in LV's eyes for now.  He's offered the same sort of
loyalty that Bellatrix did.

Tip





From rgbmcl at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 11 20:11:08 2004
From: rgbmcl at hotmail.com (rgbmcl)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 20:11:08 -0000
Subject: What would you think if.....
In-Reply-To: <c28lgv+k1n9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2qh4s+go80@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92757

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" 
<justcarol67 at y...> wrote:
(I emphatically don't want him
> to use Avada Kedavra or any other Unforgiveable Curse. I do want him
> to use his wits and his courage and to survive.)

I disagree.  I think having Harry use the avada kedavra curse to kill 
LV may well be the only way JKR can give due gravity to the fact that 
Harry must commit murder.  Then, even if he lives, he has to live 
with another 'scar' -- that the same curse that wrecked his life in 
the first place is the one that set it right again.  I'll be 
disappointed if the whole series just ends in a 'happily ever 
after'.  What LV did can't be undone; you can't just magically erase 
it all.  I think in the end, it would make Harry a far more complex 
hero.





From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 11 21:46:48 2004
From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (drjuliehoward)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 21:46:48 -0000
Subject: Snape in the graveyard
In-Reply-To: <c2qest+15ve@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2qmo8+v7s0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92758

> There are questions about Snape and the graveyard, to be sure.  He 
> must have had an excellent cover story for Voldemort since he 
didn't 
> show up when the mark first burned.  In relation to Sue's theory, 
I 
> have two additional questions: does Voldemort share DD's 
> ability to see through invisibility cloaks, and does Snape share 
> DD's ability to become invisible without a cloak?
> 
> weirdsister06


Instead of repeating myself, reference post #92735




From lizvega2 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 11 22:39:10 2004
From: lizvega2 at yahoo.com (lizvega2)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 22:39:10 -0000
Subject: That pesky crucial and central question
Message-ID: <c2qpqe+e994@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92759

I'm sure it's been discussed at length since the Chat from World 
Book Day, but I've just had a thought:  

Josh from Cottenham Village College: Right at the beginning, when 
Voldermort tried to kill Harry, how did Voldermort and Harry both 
survive? ****SCHOOLS COMPETITION WINNER****

JK Rowling replies -> That is the crucial and central question and 
if I answered it there would be hardly any point writing books six 
and seven... so I won't!

I interpret it like this: The reason, or cause, or whatever, behind 
how LV and Harry both survived is the answer to how one, or both can 
be killed. The reason why I think the phrasing of the question is 
important is because it alludes to how both can be destroyed. 

I've always questioned the 'love' saving Harry theory. DD said that 
his mother died to save him, and this love allowed Harry to be 
protected when LV turned his wand on him. I've always assumed that 
the reason why LV didn't die was because of the 'precautions' he 
took against death earlier in his life. 

So, if Jo says that there would hardly be any point in writing books 
6 & 7 if she answered how LV and Harry survived the attack, then 
it's got to be more than love on Harry's side, and resourcefullness 
on Tom's. 

LizVega, wondering what Jo was saying during the interview while she 
typed.  




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Fri Mar 12 00:11:41 2004
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 16:11:41 -0800
Subject: LV's Irrational Behavior (was: Re: LV as Blofeld/Dr Evil?)
In-Reply-To: <c2orgv+kia1@eGroups.com>
References: <c2orgv+kia1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <2910406565.20040311161141@mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92760


Wednesday, March 10, 2004, 8:55:59 PM, suehpfan wrote:

s> Voldemort, like many egomaniacal villains, never gives a second 
s> thought to the idea that there really may be something "special" 
s> about Harry until he has humiliated himself and Harry has gotten away.

But what makes it even more perplexing for me is that Voldie's
behavior is the exact opposite in the MoM in _OoP_, i.e. he
immediately tries to kill Harry, on the grounds that "You have irked
me too often for too long", without thinking twice.  I mean, wasn't
the whole point of this whole exercise (of luring Harry to the Dept.
of Mysteries to get the Prophesy) that he now *knows* there is
something "weird" about Harry, and Lord Thingy is determined to find
out what it is before he makes any more blind attempts to kill him?
But then Voldie shows up "in poisson" to finish him off, *still* not
knowing what the Prophecy says, and whether this latest attempt
to kill him will also fail.  It's as though he just suddenly slapped
his forehead and said to himself, "Oh, what am I thinking?  There's
nothing special about Harry Potter, and I've wasted a year obsessing
over a dumb, meaningless prophecy.  Silly me!  Well, better get off
my little tooshie and finally terminate that annoying kid..."

Is it me, or does something not make sense here...?

-- 
Dave




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 12 00:24:27 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 00:24:27 -0000
Subject: On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
In-Reply-To: <c2lufo+m8qd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2qvvr+t11r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92761

> > Kneasy:
> > A reasonable (if mercenary) thought. One small snag - who do  they
> > bicker with and  how?
> > 
> > So far as we know no-one from the WW has met them face to face
> > and the Dursleys  don't seem to have a method of contacting DD
> > and his merry crew. That  makes negotiations a bit problematical.


Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding this part of your post. No one from
the WW has met the Dursleys face to face? What about Hagrid in SS/PS
and Mr. Weasley, Ron, and the twins in PoA, not to mention the MoM
employees who did a memory charm on Aunt Marge? Or are you talking
about Dumbledore himself and the original arrangement involving Harry?
(There's also Mrs. Figg, who could have communicated information to
Petunia regarding Harry that Vernon doesn't know about.)

Carol




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 12 01:28:20 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 01:28:20 -0000
Subject: The Strange Case of the Altered Spelling
In-Reply-To: <404F0558.2000607@chartermi.net>
Message-ID: <c2r3nk+prhq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92762

Lexicon Steve:
Am I correct in thinking that it's spelled differently in the US
editions than it is in the UK ones? My US books say Sibyll, while
someone emailed me that it's spelled Sybill in the UK version. Can
anyone verify this for me? I'd like to add a note to the page about
Trelawney as well as a note on the "Differences" page, but I don't own
the UK versions to be able to check.

Amanda Geist:
You appear to be correct.

Page 228, PoA, US--"Sibyll, this is a pleasant surprise!" said 
Dumbledore...
<snip>
Page 169, PoA, Canadian (and thus UK as well, I believe)--'Sybill,
this is a pleasant surprise!' said Dumbledore...
<snip>

Honey(just to be complete):
The Bloomsbury (UK) version is identical to the Canadian. Paperback
page 169 "Sybill, this is a pleasant surprise!" said Dumbledore...

Barb:
page 228
 
"Sibyll, this is a pleasant surprise!"

from USA hardback with following info on the page where I find edition 
> (I believe it indicates the printing but I don't remember what the 
> coding means, I have faith that Steve will know)
> 
> 24 23 22 21 20 19 18 17 16 15             9/9 0/0 1 2 3 4    
> 
> Printed in the U.S.A.    23
> 
> First American edition, October 1999


Carol:
For the record, it *ought* to be "Sibyl(l)" to conform with "sibyl"
(prophetess) unless the British spelling of that word differs from the
American one. (I've recently been told that the British spelling of
"artifact" is "artefact," which to my eyes still looks like a typo.)

As for those mysterious numbers, they're the printing history of your
edition of PoA. Ignoring that mysterious 23, which doesn't appear to
fit the picture, the numbers on the left (which for God knows what
reason should be read from right to left) indicate that this is the
fifteenth printing of the American first edition, with nine subsequent
printings anticipated (numbers 16-24). The numbers on the right are
the years in which some of these new printings are anticipated, with
9/9 as the date of the present impression (printing).

If anyone's curious (and I'm sure nobody is), my Scholastic Trade
Paperback (first printing, September 2001) has the same reading and
page number as your hardback and the following printing code

12 11 10 9 8 7         1 2 3 4 5 6/0

meaning that my copy of PoA was the seventh printing of this paperback
edition (with five more anticipated in 2002-2006) and it was still
2001 at the time.

I'm sure that *everyone* is thrilled with this information, which I
hope casts some small light on the original question.

If not, please accept my apologies, but I had to play Hermione and
raise my hand high in the air because I knew the answer even though
I'm not the one who was called on.

Carol




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 12 02:07:37 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 02:07:37 -0000
Subject: Something Small
In-Reply-To: <c2o515+i0u3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2r619+576j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92763

Jenni wrote:
<snip> 
Dean values his right hand, and fears losing it.
 
Carol: 
Do you remember where you read this? All I remember about Dean
(besides being Muggle-born and Seamus's best friend) is that he's good
with a quill. His drawing ability or his skill at forging signatures
has been mentioned IIRC in every book. Maybe that's the "something
small" (a minor skill) that will play a big role. At any rate, it's
been mentioned do often that it has to be important at some point--I
have absolutely no idea how.

Paula: 
Prisoner of Azkaban, us edition, The Bogart in the Wardrobe, Pg. 139
"'it's confused!' shouted Lupin.  'We're getting there! Dean!'
Dean hurried forward.
Crack! The eyeball became a severed hand, which flipped over and began
to creep alond the floor like a crab."

He most fears a severed hand, presumably his own.
 
Carol:
Thanks for the passage. I read it differently--IMO the idea of a hand
severed from a body but still moving as if it were alive was what
terrified him. It brought to my mind the scene in "Fellowship of the
Ring" ("Fog on the Barrow Downs") where Frodo cuts off the barrow
wight's hand, which was crawling on its fingertips toward him, and it
keeps "wriggling still, like a wounded spider," until Tom Bombadil
stomps it into oblivion ("dead hand is broken"). Now, though, the
severed-hand boggart makes me think of the hand of glory description
that someone posted recently (the hand is that of a hanged murderer),
which sounds sufficiently terrifying for Dean to be afraid of it. The
only hitch is that he's a Muggle-born and may not have heard of the
hand of glory. OTOH, as a soccer fan, he probably watches a lot of
television. Too many horror movies, Dean?

Anyway, I do think Dean's skill as an artist (or forger) will play a
role in later books, but I'll keep my optimistic view that he won't
lose a hand (any more than Parvati will encounter a mummy). Bad enough
when Wormtail lost his and I had to pity *him*!

And just as a side note, if Dean really fears losing a hand, it might
not be his right hand. Lots of creative artistic types are lefthanded. :-)

Carol






From owlery2003 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 12 02:09:33 2004
From: owlery2003 at yahoo.com (Scott Santangelo)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 18:09:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Malfoy/Karkaroff
In-Reply-To: <c2qf4p+sbf7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040312020933.11335.qmail@web60103.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92764



Mandy wrote:We know that Lucius stayed true to the dark arts during Voldy's absence, and we know he hung onto some artifacts which he had to quickly get rid of when the Ministry raids began, and that he had Riddle's diary to slip into Ginny's cauldron.  What do you all think about how *loyal* he was to Voldy during those "down" years?  And how loyal now?


tipgardner replied: I had a couple of thoughts inspired by your interesting post Mandy. One is that I tend to think Lucius gives me the impression of loyalty
to himself, but also an understanding of his place, willing orotherwise, in the pecking order of the group with whom he has chosen to associate.  Is he loyal to LV as well?  I think he is in his own, self-interested way. Another thought was your concept of Lucius rising to power and achieving success with the help of LV.  I believe that the text gives a distinct impression of the Malfoy family as being wealthy, powerful and old.  That makes me think that Lucius didn't need LV, he believed
in the cause, etc., at least when he was younger.  I do think that he and LV have many of the same goals.  I also think that Malfoy's position because of his family's standing, independent of anything LV may or may not have helped him achieve, is highly useful to LV.  I'm
not sure how his imprisonment would help with that, but as he does not appear to have named names or betrayed LV in some other way, he should be all right in LV's eyes for now.  He's offered the same sort of loyalty that Bellatrix did.

Owlery2003 commented:

Agreed! Malfoy is a self-centered type with his own resources and ambitions, but he's no fool. He's cast his lot with LV, and he's smart enough to know what would happen if he tried to switch sides. Even before he knew LV was back, he was muggle-baiting at the quidditch cup, so he's a die-hard DE. Live by the sword . . .



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From owlery2003 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 12 02:13:48 2004
From: owlery2003 at yahoo.com (Scott Santangelo)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 18:13:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape in the graveyard
In-Reply-To: <c2qest+15ve@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040312021348.71452.qmail@web60108.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92765


Sue wrote: 

What it Snape followed Harry to the Graveyard wearing an 
invisibility cloak.  His mark burned, he knew where they all were and he had to assume that the missing Harry and Cedric were there as well.  Snape then could have fixed the cup to take Harry back to school (if he survived) and later born witness to DD about the truth of everything Harry saw and heard, perhaps even adding the names of the DE's Harry did not know.


wierdsiste06 commented: There are questions about Snape and the graveyard, to be sure.  He must have had an excellent cover story for Voldemort since he didn't show up when the mark first burned.  In relation to Sue's theory, I have two additional questions: does Voldemort share DD's ability to see through invisibility cloaks, and does Snape share DD's ability to become invisible without a cloak?


owlery2003 commented:

Was it ruled out by canon that Snape wasn't in the graveyard when the DEs were summoned? I thought LV passed over a few of the DEs without comment, or something like that. I thought it might be logical that Snape DID show up, but LV didn't want to "unmask" his Hogwarts mole in front of the others . . .



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From owlery2003 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 12 02:24:03 2004
From: owlery2003 at yahoo.com (Scott Santangelo)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 18:24:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why isn't Harry Friendlier with Hermione?
In-Reply-To: <01de01c4072a$b46734e0$6b8b1a40@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <20040312022403.73877.qmail@web60110.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92766


My two cents on the topic - Harry and Hermione's "friendship" will blossom by the end of the story into something more. They start off at arms length. They become friends. They go through hard times, but are there for each other as solid friends. She's understanding, patient and wise. They have arguments, but emerge as friends. I think it's how really great relationships begin, and as they mature, I think that will manifest itself in awkward and unexpected ways that may strain Ron's ability to deal with it. Right now, everybody's preoccupied with staying alive, so we don't expect to see that aspect develop in the setting of an OOTP. But of course, all will be resolved and the trio will remain friends. Two more books before we find out!

owlery2003



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From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Fri Mar 12 02:36:20 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 02:36:20 -0000
Subject: Malfoy/Karkaroff
In-Reply-To: <20040312020933.11335.qmail@web60103.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c2r7n4+m9da@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92767

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Scott Santangelo 
<owlery2003 at y...> wrote:
> 
> 
> Mandy wrote:We know that Lucius stayed true to the dark arts 
during Voldy's absence, and we know he hung onto some artifacts 
which he had to quickly get rid of when the Ministry raids began, 
and that he had Riddle's diary to slip into Ginny's cauldron.  What 
do you all think about how *loyal* he was to Voldy during 
those "down" years?  And how loyal now?
> 

Susan:
Just stepping in to clarify...in case Mandy doesn't really 
appreciate having my words attributed to her (twice now).  That 
paragraph above is actually from *my* post, asking Mandy if she 
minded going off on a Lucius tangent.

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From kking0731 at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 12 00:26:41 2004
From: kking0731 at hotmail.com (Kathy King)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 19:26:41 -0500
Subject: The Grim?
Message-ID: <Sea2-F11mbsjAGFJsOW0003dec8@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92768


We know that Harry saw a book in Flourish and Blotts that showed a Grim 
right after seeing the big black dog (which we later learn is Sirius). We 
know that in Trelawneys class Harry had the Grim in his tealeaves. Harry 
immediately recalled the dog in the shadows of Magnolia Crescent and also 
the cover of the book Death Omens. So the big black dog wasnt a Grim at all 
but was the animagus Sirius, or was it that Sirius was a Grim? Was Sirius 
bad luck? The Black Manor is called Grim-mald Place.

You cant choose what patronus or animagi you become, it comes from within 
you. So did Sirius turn into a big black dog or a Grim? Did the Black family 
curse him when he left at 16? That was about the time that the Marauders 
turned into Animagus.

Also, Grimmald sounds very much like the dark lord that Dumbledore defeated 
in 1945, Grindelwald. Wonder if theres anything with that?



Kathy

_________________________________________________________________
Frustrated with dial-up? Lightning-fast Internet access for as low as 
$29.95/month. http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200360ave/direct/01/





From editor at texas.net  Fri Mar 12 03:03:35 2004
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 21:03:35 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape in the graveyard
References: <c2qest+15ve@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <005901c407de$9d6088a0$8159aacf@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 92769

weirdsister06:

> There are questions about Snape and the graveyard, to be sure.  He
> must have had an excellent cover story for Voldemort since he didn't
> show up when the mark first burned.

I think he had a built-in one: "You can't apparate out of Hogwarts, and in
any case, I had to protect the 'cover' I've been establishing for 13 years
by staying with Dumbledore at a critical time for the school
administrators." I still think Snape probably got the you-know Crucio'd out
of him--but I think he survived it because Voldemort needed him as an "in"
at Hogwarts after his plan failed and Harry escaped. I don't think that
story would have been enough if Harry had died as planned.

>  In relation to Sue's theory, I
> have two additional questions: does Voldemort share DD's
> ability to see through invisibility cloaks, and does Snape share
> DD's ability to become invisible without a cloak?

As for Snape's ability, I'd bet not. Two reasons, both having to do with
Snape prowling the halls. One--we can *see* him prowling the halls, and I
think his prowling would be better accomplished invisibly; so if he can be
invisible, I think he would have before now. Two--if he goes invisible, we
*can't* see him prowling the halls, so from a plot motive, it wouldn't be
good to have him able to do this--because in character, if he could, he'd
*use* it and then we, the readers, wouldn't be able to see him. Um. If that
made sense.

~Amanda, premier Snapologist






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 12 03:17:15 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 03:17:15 -0000
Subject: Does LV know it was Snape who sent the Order to the MoM? (Was: Snape the Coward?
In-Reply-To: <c2mk06+qceo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2ra3r+9gq2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92770

Carol wrote:
<snip> Dumbledore wasn't at Hogwarts and couldn't have known that
Harry was heading for the MoM unless someone told him, and who else
could it be besides Snape? <snip>
> 
Max responded:
> Kreacher.  OotP (p.830-831 US Edition): "All agreed to go to your
[Harry's] aid at once.  Professor Snape requested that Sirius remain
behind, as he needed someone at headquarters to tell me [Dumbledore]
what had happened, for I was due there at any moment. . . But Sirius
did not wish to remain behind while the others went to search for you.
He delegated to Kreacher the task of telling me what happened."
> 

Carol again:
Dumbledore is "due there at any moment" because Snape contacted him
before he contacted the Order. How else would DD have known to go to
Grimmauld Place and how else would Snape know he was going? But my
point is that LV and Malfoy *knew* that DD was not at Hogwarts and
therefore could not have known about Harry going to the MoM if Snape
hadn't contacted either him or the Order or both. There was no one
else at Hogwarts who could have done it. 

The fact that the task of filling in Dumbledore after he reached
headquarters was relegated to Kreacher is irrelevant here, because LV
and Malfoy aren't going to blame *him* for betraying them. It was
Snape who originally informed Dumbledore and Snape who sent the Order
to the MoM, and both LV and the imprisoned Malfoy are likely to figure
that out. Again, who else could it have been? Not Kreacher, who wasn't
at Hogwarts and only did as Sirius ordered *after* Snape had informed
Sirius what Harry was up to. If LV finds a way to question Kreacher
(using Narcissa or Bellatrix), Kreacher will be innocent from their
perspective. But Snape won't be, because unless Sirius's orders to say
nothing about the Order still apply after Sirius's death, Kreacher is
going to tell all he knows. 

Carol wrote:
<snip>
I think Snape's cover is finally blown... <snip> I don't see 
how even Snape can wiggle out of this clear instance of being on the
side of the Order. Can you think of a lie that could excuse him or 
someone else he could blame without betraying the Order? Could he 
somehow pin it on the conveniently dead Sirius? I don't think so.
<snip>
> 
Max responded:
But I think he can. Imo, it's more likely that Malfoy would just
assume Sirius had somehow forced Kreacher to admit what he had done -
ie. going to the Malfoys and then lying to Harry, letting him assume
that Sirius had gone to the DoM. With Harry gone missing, the Order
would then naturally assume he had gone after Sirius at the DoM.  
 
And Snape remains blameless.


Carol again:


Sorry. I don't follow. How would the Order have known that Harry was
missing (and heading for the MoM) if Snape hadn't told them? They
weren't at Hogwarts and neither was Dumbledore. And how would LV know
that Harry had talked to Kreacher if, as you said in a part of the
post that I snipped, Kreacher had no way of contacting Malfoy?

Let's think this through. LV knows that his false message has finally
gotten through to Harry because he's invading Harry's mind. But he
can't "read" Harry's mind thought by thought; he can only *feel* what
Harry is feeling. LV doesn't know that Harry has tried to communicate
with Kreacher or that Harry isn't alone or even that he's riding a
Thestral; he only senses that Harry is on his way to the MoM to rescue
Sirius and that it's time to send in the DEs to wait for him. LV also
doesn't know that Harry has informed Snape about "Padfoot" being in
trouble or that Snape has gone to look for him and has contacted the
Order or that Dumbledore is coming. All he knows is that Harry is
coming and the DEs are ready for him--or so he thinks.

It's only when LV senses that the prophecy has been broken that he
risks everything to apparate into the atrium of the MoM, where he's
forced to fight the newly arrived Dumbledore. Bellatrix will tell him
what happened in the battle, but LV (with her help) will have to
figure out how the Order and Dumbledore knew to go there. Malfoy, in
prison, already knows the events in the MoM, but he, too, will be
thinking about the Order and Dumbledore. And IMO, they will both
arrive at the same conclusion. Only one person could have known that
they were trying to steal the prophecy AND that Harry had gone to save
Sirius. So I ask again, who could it be but Snape and what lie can he
possibly tell to get out of this one? IMO, he'd better stay at
Hogwarts (or wherever DD goes in Summer) because with all his
intelligence and all his skills, he's not safe anywhere else.

Carol




From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 12 03:06:53 2004
From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (Ms Mo Me)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 19:06:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Faithful servant debate/Total Death eaters
In-Reply-To: <1079020564.108672.78850.m19@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040312030653.64036.qmail@web13501.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92771

This is actually more of a question...

It is said that 10 death eaters escape from Azkaban in
OotP. 

But, in GoF, when Voldemort is going around the
circle, he mentions the Lestranges (2) and then the
six missing (3 dead, 1 at faithful Hogwarts, 1 coward,
and 1 who left forever) (total of 8)  However, three
were dead in service (So, they must have never gone to
Azkaban) and then there are the three that everyone is
speculating over (Snape, Karkaroff, and Crouch)

If my math is correct, Voldemort only mentions the two
who are still in Azkaban (the Lestranges). Yet 10
escape, and weren't there more than just 10 people
convicted and sentenced to life???
So, it doesn't add up, or does it?

Shouldn't there be more people missing in the circle? 
And, shouldn't there be more DE prisoners still in
Azkaban in OotP (I am assuming they all didn't escape
in OotP) But, then again, back to GoF, that would mean
there would have to be more than the 6 missing plus
the 2 empty spots of the Lestranges (still in prison)
(8 total).  Unless LV forgot to mention some spots of
the others still in Azkaban.

I might be missing something here, so please clue me
in.
Sorry if it was worded a little confusing.

~Mo

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Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster
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From jdr0918 at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 12 03:20:05 2004
From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 03:20:05 -0000
Subject: LV's Irrational Behavior (was: Re: LV as Blofeld/Dr Evil?)
In-Reply-To: <2910406565.20040311161141@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <c2ra95+cck5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92772

<<<In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Dave Hardenbrook wrote:...But 
then Voldie shows up "in poisson" to finish him off, *still* not 
knowing what the Prophecy says, and whether this latest attempt to 
kill him will also fail.  It's as though he just suddenly slapped his 
forehead and said to himself, "Oh, what am I thinking? There's 
nothing special about Harry Potter, and I've wasted a year obsessing 
over a dumb, meaningless prophecy..." 
Is it me, or does something not make sense here?>>>

The Sergeant Majorette says

Voldemort seemes to have developed a case of "Gargamel Syndrome". 
Remember the Smurfs' nemesis? Hates the little blue devils, but can't 
decide whether he wants to eat them, boil them down for gold, or just 
outsmart Papa Smurf (played here by Albus Dumbledore.)

Maybe he left a few brain cells in that cauldron trying to come back 
to life. Or maybe trying to become immortal makes you stupid, which 
might be why most people prefer to die when their time comes. He's 
certainly an object lesson in that matter.

--JDR




From jdr0918 at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 12 03:36:30 2004
From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 03:36:30 -0000
Subject: Something Small
In-Reply-To: <c2r619+576j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2rb7u+1ils@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92773

<<<In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote:...which 
sounds sufficiently terrifying for Dean to be afraid of it. The only 
hitch is that he's a Muggle-born and may not have heard of the hand 
of glory.>>>

The Sergeant Majorette says

Anybody with any familiarity with the occult, whether it be from 
reading, horror movies, or a loony maiden aunt, would know about the 
Hand. And if Dean's ethnicity is not just a gloss for American 
readers (apparently it's not mentioned in the UK editions that he's 
Black), he's probably of Jamaican extraction, which means that he has 
at least one elderly female relative, if not his grandmother, who 
messes around with roots and herbs.

Also, I am reminded of street magician David Blaine, who almost got 
beat up in Haiti when he did his best trick, levitation (they wanted 
to know who he was working for). He said he should have known 
Haitians would not be impressed by magic as they all know their 
grandmothers can fly.

--JDR




From wildean at shibaotu.fsworld.co.uk  Fri Mar 12 03:54:24 2004
From: wildean at shibaotu.fsworld.co.uk (Wildean)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 03:54:24 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] P is the letter of good; R is the letter of bad
References: <20040311132508.94618.qmail@web61105.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <00a201c407e5$e0f87120$ef7f4d51@b5c9d5>

No: HPFGUIDX 92774

From: "Elihu Falk" <falkelihu at yahoo.com>
To: <hpforgrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 1:25 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] P is the letter of good; R is the letter of bad


> The letter P seems to be associated, usually, with the good guys, such as:
> a) Harry Potter (and his mother, who died to save him - did she know
> about the Prophecy?
...
> e) Padfoot and Prongs.
> f) The Order of the Phoenix

Two words: Piers Polkiss. Is he going to be a good guy?

Wildean





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 12 04:03:53 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 04:03:53 -0000
Subject: Harry's Future and Career
In-Reply-To: <9a.54f80ce.2d8059d2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <c2rcr9+rhcg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92775

Neil:
I know everyone is going to say he is too young, but I think Harry is
already priming for his future job as DASA professor.  Think about it.
 The job is always open and Dumbledore knows about the DA.  If Harry
defeats the Dark Lord, young as he is, who could be a better
candidate.  Everyone else can talk about it, Harry can actually do it
and has.  Wouldn't that upset Snape?


Carol:
We know from more than one interview that Harry won't be a teacher
(Neither will Ron.)
Here's the relevant quote from the October 12, 1999, interview:

[Sixth-grade teacher]: . . . we're curious as to whether Harry is
going to have a life after Hogwarts, or if maybe, Harry might be a
Hogwarts teacher.
JKR: Well, because all your kids said `hello' so nicely in the
background there, I am going to give you information I haven't given
anyone else and I will tell you that one of the characters, one of
Harry's classmates, though it's not Harry himself, does end up a
teacher at Hogwarts. But, it is not, maybe the one you think, hint,
hint, hint. Yeah, one of them does end up staying at Hogwarts, but ----
[Interviewer to the teacher]: Do the kids want to guess at it, Kathleen?
[Teacher to kids]: Do you guys have a guess as to who it is?
(Kids shouting in background) Ron
[Teacher:] They say Ron.
JKR: No, it's not Ron. I can't see Ron as a teacher. No way.

So, Harry's not going to be a teacher and neither is Ron. And since
"it is not, maybe, the one you think," I assume it's not going to be
Hermione, either. My guess, and I don't think I'm alone here, is
Neville, who'd make a darn good herbology teacher. But of course I'm
voting for Snape to finally get the DADA position as his reward for
services to the school at the end of Book 7.

As for Harry, the only ambition he's ever expressed (and Ron has
expressed it, too), is to be an auror. That way, they won't have to
retire *too* quietly after LV is gone, but they'll have three years of
training after Hogwarts before they have to go out and face the
remaining DEs and other baddies in the WW. By then, they'll be actual
grown ups.

Carol, who still has a hard time thinking of seventeen-year-olds as
being "of age."  




From nkafkafi at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 12 04:19:39 2004
From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 04:19:39 -0000
Subject: Does LV know it was Snape who sent the Order to the MoM? (Was: Snape the Coward?
In-Reply-To: <c2ra3r+9gq2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2rdor+2ric@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92776

> Carol again:
> 
> 
> Sorry. I don't follow. How would the Order have known that Harry was
> missing (and heading for the MoM) if Snape hadn't told them? <snip>
> It's only when LV senses that the prophecy has been broken that he
> risks everything to apparate into the atrium of the MoM, where he's
> forced to fight the newly arrived Dumbledore. Bellatrix will tell 
him
> what happened in the battle, but LV (with her help) will have to
> figure out how the Order and Dumbledore knew to go there. Malfoy, in
> prison, already knows the events in the MoM, but he, too, will be
> thinking about the Order and Dumbledore. And IMO, they will both
> arrive at the same conclusion. Only one person could have known that
> they were trying to steal the prophecy AND that Harry had gone to 
save
> Sirius. So I ask again, who could it be but Snape and what lie can 
he
> possibly tell to get out of this one? IMO, he'd better stay at
> Hogwarts (or wherever DD goes in Summer) because with all his
> intelligence and all his skills, he's not safe anywhere else.

Neri:
LV can probably think of many ways the Order could have been told 
besides Snape telling them. It is reasonable that DD has more people 
in Hogwarts reporting him. Flitwick, for example. Or Harry could have 
sent one of his group on a thestral to Grimmauld place. Or maybe 
anyone of Harry's friends left behind in Hogwarts had a two-way 
mirror or another connection with one of the Order members, or they 
flew to Hogsmeade on a broom and notified Aberforth (assuming he is 
the barman at the Hog's Head). There are many possible ways.

Going by muggle espionage standards, Snape was blown as an agent many 
years ago. However, IMHO he is not doing it in the muggle way. I 
think that whenever Snape goes to give his report to LV, LV 
legilimens into Snape's mind to see if he is still a loyal DE, and if 
he tells LV the truth. Snape (probably with DD's help) had found a 
way to fool LV's legilimency abilities. This is the only reasonable 
explanation I can see, and it will enable Snape to get away with it 
this time too.

Neri





From yswahl at stis.net  Fri Mar 12 04:42:41 2004
From: yswahl at stis.net (samnanya)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 04:42:41 -0000
Subject: SHIP:how about a random love interest? Don't think so ....
In-Reply-To: <BAY2-F148xLYxrwZnTc00033790@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <c2rf41+2u63@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92777

Samnanya
There is not much time left in the story to introduce new chars or 
expand minor chars into major ones. With a war going on, unresolved 
issues with Durmstrang, Beauxbatons, Wormtail, Bagman, Grawp, Firenze, 
and a host of death eaters, giants, goblins, house elves, and 
Dursleys, and on and on,  there is not enough TIME ..... {don't even 
think of a time turner}.
The last chance for new significant characters was in OOP. There are 
only at most 1500-1800 or so pages to go and an awful lot of loose 
ends to tighten up.... In addition, a new char would not ring true [so 
to speak] if they ended up with Harry or helped save the day. 
If you really are not a HH or HG shipper, all that is really left is 
HL.  After OOP, HL can hardly be considered random as they do have 
much in common.


Janet Anderson
.....I still think that there is a possiblility of a more random love 
interest for Harry .........





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 12 04:53:05 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 04:53:05 -0000
Subject: JKR chat--Snape the coward or the one left forever?
In-Reply-To: <c2n2dk+u5b8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2rfnh+v0ed@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92778

> Potioncat:
> I was looking in a quote site, but could not find what I was looking 
> for. Does anyone remember JKR saying that Snape had some difficult 
> stuff coming, but not to worry because he is tough? It may have 
> been around the time of GoF, but I'm not sure. I just wonder if it 
> has anything to do with Book 6's plot line.



Thanks for asking that question. I just happen to have bookmarked what
I think is the post you're looking for. (I thought it was Pippin's but
apparently not.) In any case, it was a while back:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/7901

Here's the relevant portion:

"Back in October/November [2000] one of the posters on Jenna's UHPFC
board attended a reading that JKR did in Vancouver. She reported that
afterwards there was a Q&A session, during which JKR was asked
straight out who the three "missing" Death Eaters were. JKR gave a
reply which apparently made it obvious that the faithful servant was
Barty, the coward was Karkaroff - and the one who had left forever
and who would be killed was Snape.

"At this point, a groan of dismay swept over the audience at the
thought of Snape dying (obviously there was a big Snape-fan
contingent in that night). JKR looked very taken aback at this
reaction and promptly said "Oh, you don't have to worry about Snape -
he's tough." As a Snape fan myself, I hope this was an indication
that he is going to make it through to the end of Book 7 in one
piece, although I have no idea what he will be doing in the meantime."

(Carol again): After reading this post (long after it was posted), I
tried to find out whether this interview was ever transcribed online,
and the answer is apparently no. I tried an extensive Google search,
including Google groups, but found almost nothing. It's referred to on
a board or two, but the UHPFC board itself is long gone, lost in
cyberspace. 

BTW, if we *could* find this interview online or in print, it would
definitively establish that Snape was *not* the coward or the faithful
servant or a DE present at the graveyard. He was, as I've been arguing
for the last twelve years (erm, last few days not counting earlier
threads) the one LV believes has left him forever. (At least, he
believed it the end of GoF, though Snape seems to have gotten himself
off the hook in OoP. Now, after the Battle of MoM, I'm pretty sure
he's back on again.)

Does anyone on this board have a copy of this interview or any
additional information about it?

Carol

P.S. Potioncat, If you're worried that Snape won't survive Book 6,
here's proof that he will (the October 12, 1999, interview again):

http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/1999/1099-connectiontransc.html

Q: There's an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape
JKR: He, um, there's so much I wish I could say to you, and I can't
because it would ruin. I promise you, whoever asked that question, can
I just say to you that I'm slightly stunned that you've said that and
you'll find out why I'm so stunned if you read Book 7. That's all I'm
going to say.

So whether the questioner was right or not (and I think he or she was
right on the money), Snape will play an important role in Book 7. C.




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 12 05:09:23 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 05:09:23 -0000
Subject: Will Hogwarts be Attacked?
In-Reply-To: <c2nanc+2sfb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2rgm3+ono4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92779

> Mandy:
> Absolutely.  I believe it'll be attacked for certain.  Look at the 
> clues already in place:
> 
> The Sorting Hat said that a unification of the Houses must happen or 
> the school will "...crumble from within."  Disaster if the school is 
> also being threatened from the outside.  Right now, just about the 
> only thing, imo, that will bring Slytherin in line with the other 3 
> houses, is if Hogwarts and the live of the children themselves are 
> threatened.  Of course the children of the Death Eaters will be on LV 
> side, but not all Slytherins are DE offspring.   
> 
> The Chamber of Secrets is a dangerous weak spot for DD and his allies 
> inside the school.  As is the forbidden Forest, a haven for Dark 
> Creatures.  How can LV not use them both to his advantage?
> 
> Most of the action in the books so far has taken place while Harry is 
> at Hogwarts, and I don't see the formula changing in the last 2 
> books.  JKR can't have Harry leaving school to fight in the war for 
> it would scatter all the principal characters. But she can have the 
> war come to Harry and Co., at school. This also allows for not only 
> the trio to be present, but also include everyone else; DD, Snape, 
> Hagrid, McGonigal, Draco, Neville, Luna, Ginny, all of Dumbledore's 
> Army, etc. etc. etc.  Plus the attack will bring to Hogwarts; LV, 
> Bellatrix, Wormtail, other DE not in Azkaban, the Dementors, Dragons, 
> Giants, and other Dark creatures in LV army.
> 
> I can't see how the school would not be involved.  Roll on book 6!!


All good points (although I see hope for Theo Nott's being on the good
side despite his father's being a Death Eater), but don't you think
the big battle has to occur in Book Seven? It seems to me that it
would be anticlimactic to have it in Book Six--unless Book Seven
involves Harry in a heroic one-on-one struggle against LV, which I
don't think could be sustained for a whole book--and which I don't
want to see because I want the whole group involved till the last
moment when, finally, it's Harry's turn to fight alone.

Carol




From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Fri Mar 12 05:13:21 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 05:13:21 -0000
Subject: LV's Irrational Behavior (was: Re: LV as Blofeld/Dr Evil?)
In-Reply-To: <c2ra95+cck5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2rgth+rsk9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92780

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jdr0918" <jdr0918 at h...> wrote:
> <<<In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Dave Hardenbrook wrote:...But 
> then Voldie shows up "in poisson" to finish him off, *still* not 
> knowing what the Prophecy says, and whether this latest attempt to 
> kill him will also fail.  It's as though he just suddenly slapped 
his 
> forehead and said to himself, "Oh, what am I thinking? There's 
> nothing special about Harry Potter, and I've wasted a year 
obsessing 
> over a dumb, meaningless prophecy..." 
> Is it me, or does something not make sense here?>>>
> 
> The Sergeant Majorette says
> 
> Voldemort seemes to have developed a case of "Gargamel Syndrome". 
> Remember the Smurfs' nemesis? Hates the little blue devils, but 
can't 
> decide whether he wants to eat them, boil them down for gold, or 
just 
> outsmart Papa Smurf (played here by Albus Dumbledore.)
> 
> Maybe he left a few brain cells in that cauldron trying to come 
back 
> to life. Or maybe trying to become immortal makes you stupid, which 
> might be why most people prefer to die when their time comes. He's 
> certainly an object lesson in that matter.
> 
> --JDR

I have to say, I love the Smurf analogy!  I think the more important 
thing going on here is that Voldemort wants to "do it right".  He 
knows he cannot touch Harry on Privet Dr. and he was just burned in 
the graveyard.  His goal seems to be to find out exactly what he 
needs to know to make sure his AK sticks this time.  The MoM refusing 
to believe he is back makes biding his time quite easy and while he 
is at it, he begins to find out the extent of the connection he has 
with Harry.  He also has time to gather support for the time when he 
goes public.

At the end of the book when the whole fiasco takes place at the MoM, 
Voldemot knows his cover is blown.  His DEs failed, the prophecy is 
destroyed and now he just wants Harry dead.  He really has no idea 
whether the curse will work or not, and of course this time Papa 
Smurf comes in to save the day.

I really think the next two books will be a series of attemps on 
Harry's life from all directions.  I doubt Voldemort will care who 
kills him as long as he's dead.  For that matter, he may figure 
someone else may have more luck!

I don't think Voldemort is stupid, he just continues to underestimate 
his opponant(s). Besides, the guy appears to be immortal, what's the 
hurry?

Sue




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 12 05:23:18 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 05:23:18 -0000
Subject: Snape and the MOM  (Was: Snape the coward or the one left forever?
In-Reply-To: <c2ncal+g1c3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2rhg6+jnm4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92781

Carol wrote:
Maybe I'm assuming, as usual, but Kreacher 
probably knew that Snape had contacted the Order members 
and he could well have reported it to Malfoy or Narcissa. Even if 
Kreacher didn't talk, therewas no one else at Hogwarts who 
could have told Dumbledore and the Order to go to the MoM to 
rescue Harry. (It couldn't have been McGonagall, who was in St. 
Mungo's, and besides, she knew less than Snape about LV's 
plans.)<<

Pippin responded:
Snape only needs to tell Voldie that he's just discovered that the 
Order knew all along that only Voldemort or Harry could get the 
prophecy from the MoM and that the Order had also been 
informed about Harry's dreams about the Department of 
Mysteries.  So when Snape reported to the Order that Harry was 
missing, after searching in the forest and otherwise delaying as 
long as he could without rousing suspicion, they unfortunately 
already knew where to look. 
 
He could also claim that he could hardly avoid contacting the 
Order about Harry's cryptic message, since it would definitely 
have aroused Dumbledore's suspicions if he hadn't. Even if 
Harry never came back from the Department of Mysteries, a 
number of other students had heard him.
 
Carol:
You seem to be assuming that LV knows that Snape is in the Order. I'm
assuming that his membership in the Order is part of what he's
covering up and that he's only sharing information about Hogwarts and
Dumbledore with LV. Do you have any basis for your view? Wormtail
wouldn't have known about Snape's membership in the Order, which
hadn't even come about when Wormtail saw him. Also, Snape and Sirius
were on opposite sides when Wormtail saw them together. So how would
LV (or Malfoy, Snape's probable contact now inconveniently in Azkaban)
know that Snape is in the Order? Why in the world would he tell them? 

The only "evidence" I know of is that Wormtail told LV that Sirius was
an animagus and Malfoy told Snape that he saw Sirius in dog form at
Platform 9 3/4. That doesn't necessarily indicate that LV and Malfoy
know that Snape is in the Order. And I don't think Kreacher could have
told Narcissa because he was under orders not to reveal the Order's
secrets, which would certainly include its membership.

Any thoughts?

Carol




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 12 06:07:26 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 06:07:26 -0000
Subject: JKR chat--Snape the coward or the one left forever?
In-Reply-To: <c2netm+f3o0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2rk2u+v1d1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92782

Susan:
I think if Voldy was going to be convinced to actually listen to 
an explanation, it would be more likely from the one he planned 
to punish, rather than from the one he planned to kill.  Does 
that make sense?
I was just trying to argue one rationale for Snape as coward....
 
Puja:
There is just one loop I find to that assumption, Susan. We've seen 
with wormtail that LV gives very harsh punishments. But since then 
we haven't seen any kind of trauma that he has suffered. My 
thinking is that Snape's work is more as a legilimens (DD says he's 
excellent at that). 
But I can see you're really keen to prove Snape a coward and no-
ghood person :-) I'd agree with you there :-D
 
Susan:
No, no, no!!!  Please don't get me wrong on that topic!  *I* happen 
to think Snape is truly working for DD & the Order, and that he is 
very brave!  No, *all* I was trying to do was argue the *possibility* 
that Snape might be the one *Voldy* thought of as the coward, rather 
than necessarily the one Voldy thought was gone forever.  
 
Whatever Voldy thought of Snape, I am also [at *this time, anyway] 
convinced that Snape has managed to convince him that he's still 
working for the DEs.

Glad for the chance to get my position clearly stated, even if it 
disappoints you that I'm on the "wrong" side. :-)
 
Siriusly Snapey Susan

Carol:
Poor SSS! I had to laugh when I saw Puja's post and wondered how you
would respond to it. 

Puja, Susan has merely been trying to convince me that LV must *think*
that Snape is a coward and taken him back into the fold after
punishing him. I, on the other hand, think that Karkaroff is the
coward and Snape is the one LV thought at that time had left him
forever. Unlike Susan, I think it was perfectly possible for Snape,
given his talents as an occlumens, to convince Malfoy (and, through
Malfoy, LV) that it was impossible for him to be at the graveyard even
though he's still (supposedly) a loyal DE. That being the case, LV
could accept Snape back without punishing him. (Karkaroff, the real
coward, won't get off so easily, IMO.) But, as I'm arguing in another
thread, Snape may be in trouble with LV again because of the Battle at
the MoM.

As my previous posts must surely indicate, I think Snape is brave,
intelligent, and loyal to Dumbledore, which is also Susan's view.
(Look at the middle portion of her screen name. :-) ) We were only
debating *Voldemort's* view of Snape, not our own. I do hope you'll
carefully read some of our many Snape posts (not just Susan's and mine
but Pippin's and Kneasy's and a lot of other people's). He's probably
the most discussed character on this board, and if we were to do a
poll, I think 3/4 of us would rank him as a good guy, at least as far
as the war against Voldemort is concerned. Anyway, it's funny how
posts can be misread, especially paragraphs taken out of context from
longer posts.

Puja, I do agree with you that Snape hasn't been punished, though I
think he wouldn't crawl or cringe after being crucioed any more than
Harry did. I think it's his wits and his occlumency that enable him to
be a successful spy (and lie his way back into LV's good graces), but
it was probably his prowess at potion-making that attracted LV's
attention to him in the first place (when he was nineteen or twenty).
As far as legilmency is concerned, I believe he needs a spell to do
that, which wouldn't work well with LV or Malfoy (though it might work
on Goyle!). Harry may think that Snape can read his mind, but Snape,
as far as we know, isn't really a legilmens: it's just that
intimidating look of his and an uncanny ability to "put two and two
together as only Snape could" that makes him seem as if he can.

Carol, who hopes you'll forgive her for laughing




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 12 06:51:10 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 06:51:10 -0000
Subject: The Dudley Theory
In-Reply-To: <c2nsoh+jhjv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2rmku+1uq0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92783

Sue:
> Aha! Happy day. Mrs. Figg (apparently) saw the Dementors.  We know 
> Harry and other magical people can see them for sure. Dudley did not 
> see the Dementors. In fact, he ran right at one of them trying to 
> get away and only described the incident as feeling "cold, really 
> cold."  OotP US pg. 31. Therefore, he cannot be magical. The only 
> other "Dudley is a wizard" possibility is that DD took his powers in 
> an agreement with Petunia as some people have said previously. I 
> can't imagine DD doing that to anyone. And we have no canon to 
> indicate that magical power could be given or taken away. <snip>
> 
> Resting peacefully now, knowing Dudley cannot be magical.
> Sue

Carol:
I've already stated my own reasons for believing that Dudley can't be
magical, so I'll just respond to the second part of your post by
adding that taking away magical powers, even if it's possible, would
be an extreme violation of freedom of choice--worse even than an
extended Imperius curse because the person deprived of the powers
could never get them back. Since Dumbledore is JKR's spokesman for
freedom of choice, it's extremely unlikely that he would make any such
bargain. (He tells McGonagall that he wouldn't take away baby Harry's
scar even if he could; surely he wouldn't take away another baby's
magical powers!)

I'm inclined to agree with the posters who think that as long as
Petunia gives Harry a home, whatever protection Harry receives will
extend to her and her family as well. It's the only bargain that makes
any sense.

So, Sue, we may not agree on Snape, but at least we agree on Dudley!

Carol





From snapesmate at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 12 07:18:45 2004
From: snapesmate at hotmail.com (snapesmate)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 07:18:45 -0000
Subject: Snape and the MOM  (Was: Snape the coward or the one left forever?
In-Reply-To: <c2rhg6+jnm4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2ro8l+10uph@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92784

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" 
<justcarol67 at y...> wrote:
> Carol wrote:
<snip>
> The only "evidence" I know of is that Wormtail told LV that Sirius 
was
> an animagus and Malfoy told Snape that he saw Sirius in dog form at
> Platform 9 3/4. That doesn't necessarily indicate that LV and Malfoy
> know that Snape is in the Order. And I don't think Kreacher could 
have
> told Narcissa because he was under orders not to reveal the Order's
> secrets, which would certainly include its membership.
> 
> Any thoughts?
> 
> Carol

Is there actually canon stating Snape is still a DE?  I mean, his 
ability to discover what Voldemort is saying to his followers could 
be because of something else...  his legilimancy skills (used on best 
bud Lucius perhaps?) Possibly being an unregistered animagus 
himself?  I know some speculate whether or not he is part or even all 
vampire, but what if he has batlike chracteristics because he has the 
animagus form of a bat?  Sirius had a few doglike characteristics, 
ie. his bark like laugh, etc.  
Lynnette, who thinks Snape IS a good guy, even if he is NOT a nice 
guy!




From greatelderone at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 12 07:18:39 2004
From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 07:18:39 -0000
Subject: SHIP:how about a random love interest? Don't think so ....
In-Reply-To: <c2rf41+2u63@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2ro8f+9sqp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92785

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "samnanya" <yswahl at s...> wrote:
> Janet Anderson
> .....I still think that there is a possiblility of a more random 
love 
> interest for Harry .........

Like Harry and Hedwig perhaps. :) After all she was like his second 
friend after Hagrid and she has been the most loyal of them all 
staying with Harry even when he was stuck with the Dursleys. 
Furthermore their name both being with and have the same number of 
characters.




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 12 07:21:17 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 07:21:17 -0000
Subject: Need Quote: Help with Sirius's Motorcyle - More
In-Reply-To: <c2p5tq+6ns0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2rodd+90kh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92786

Neri:
According to Berit (#92582) her Bloomsbury also has "get this bike 
away". I suspect that Shaun Hately was right: this version appears 
only in the first (1997) Bloomsbury edition, and was later 
corrected to include Sirius' name. Anyone with a 1997 UK edition?

Carol again:
If it's a correction, it's the preferred version, right? Maybe the
U.K. editor changed it in 1997 but JKR changed it back in later
printings? It seems odd for the correct version to appear *first* in
the American edition, and as I said, I don't think an American 
editor would have changed "get this bike away" to "giv[e] Sirius his
bike back." "Sirius his" for "Sirius's" is what we poor deluded
Americans call a Briticism.
 
Geoff:
My hardback UK edition, which is dated 1999 on the info page and 
which I bought last autumn has "get this bike away".
 
"Give Sirius his bike back" and "Give Sirius' bike back" would both 
be acceptable Britishisms.

Carol:
Right. Britishisms or Briticisms, but not Americanisms. My point is
that the American editor is unlikely to be responsible for the change
to "Give Sirius his bike back" because it's not American English, and
if it were the British editor's change, it wouldn't be in the American
edition, too, so it must be JKR's own change. I could be wrong,
though, because my American (Scholastic paperback) edition is dated
1998, so it predates your hardback. 

So, Shaun, what is the date of your Bloomsbury (British) edition
again? I'm thinking that the 1999 British hardback may just be a
reprint of the 1997 paperback and that yours is a corrected edition
with a later date. 

If anyone wonders why I'm being so finicky about a change in wording,
I'm just trying to establish that "give Sirius his bike back" is the
preferred or authentic version and that its purpose is to reinforce
the first mention of Sirius Black earlier in PS, chapter one. (There's
also the question of how this version of events meshes with Hagrid's
version in PoA, which can't be properly determined unless we have the
right text to work with.

Carol, adjusting her Harry Potter fanatic badge




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 12 07:35:19 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 07:35:19 -0000
Subject: Need Quote: Help with Sirius's Motorcyle - More
In-Reply-To: <4050D322.7589.15DA4B8@localhost>
Message-ID: <c2rp7n+jhpj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92787

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" <drednort at a...>
wrote:
> On 11 Mar 2004 at 0:00, justcarol67 wrote:
> 
> > Also, if you look at earlier posts, Neri said that his *electronic*
> > version had "get this bike away" but Shaun Hately's Bloomsbury
> > paperback (or hardback?) has the same wording as the US edition: "I'll
> > be takin' Sirius his bike back."
> 
> My copy is a hardback and it definitely has this wording.
> 
> OK - I'm going to put down all the information I can identify as 
> possibly dating the book, in case it helps someone work out what's 
> going on.
> 
> My edition is definitely British, definitely Bloomsbury <snip>
> On the copyright/publication details page, there is no reference to 
> a publication number. Simply a statement that it was First 
> Published in Great Britain in 1997 and is Copyright 1997
> 
> It mentions that Harry Potter is trademarked to Warner Brothers, 
> 2000 - so it dates from after that.
> 
> The following numbers also appear:
> 
> 26 27 28 29 30
> 
> I seem to recall reading at some stage that the first number listed 
> there indicates the printing number - so this would seem to be the 
> 26th print run.
> 
Shaun, what are the other numbers? 0 1 2 3 4/0 or something like that?
the smallest number is the year of publication, which ought to be 2000
based on what you've said.

Thanks,
Carol

P.S. If you've already answered this in another post, ignore this one.




From lionel_garth at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 12 05:01:29 2004
From: lionel_garth at yahoo.com (Lionel English)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 05:01:29 -0000
Subject: Weasley's ages
In-Reply-To: <c27i40+a86q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2rg79+p5hq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92788

> "Molly Rahe" <molly at e...> wrote:
> > According to JKR herself, Bill is at least 28 in book 5. 

I've just finished re-listening to Book 3, and have started re-
listening to Book 4.  I'll be to 5 soon, but off hand I don't 
remember:  Does she (the author's voice) say that he's that old, or 
is that merely an impression of Harry's?

--- "elfundeb2" <elfundeb at c...> wrote:
> If 
> Charlie was really only two years older than Percy, why wasn't he 
> still at Hogwarts in PS/SS, when Percy was a newly minted fifth 
> year prefect?  And it makes no sense to argue that Charlie had 
> just left the year before, because that would make nonsense of 
> McGonagall's statement (I think it was McGonagall, anyway) that 
> Gryffindor hadn't won the Quidditch cup since Charlie Weasley left.

Charlie must have been at least three years older than Percy (or 2 
1/2), because he was not at Hogwarts in PS/SS.  (This assumes, of 
course, that he attended the full seven years, and did not leave at 
the end of his fifth or sixth year).

In Book 3, McGonagall says that Gryffindor had not won the Quidditch 
cup in seven years.  This was five years before Harry started.  I 
believe in the first book it was mentioned that Slytherin had held 
the House Cup for seven years running.  So there may have been a 
year or two where Gryfindor won the Q cup but not the house.

We know that five years before Harry started, G won the Q cup, and 
that Charlie was the seeker on that team.  He must've been in at 
least his second year at this point.  McGonagall's statement simply 
says that Charlie was seeker last time they won; it does *not* state 
that they had not won since he stopped playing, so it does not imply 
that that was the last time he had played.  He could have stopped 
playing early, but this does not seem likely.  It is also possible 
that despite his being a very good player, he was on a weaker team 
after the "legendary match", and they simply didn't win again.  Or 
they didn't win their all their games by a large enough margin to 
take the Q cup.  We know that Wood saw Charlie play, so he couldn't 
have left *too* long before PS/SS.

So Rowling's statements are not impossible to reconcile.  Suppose 
Charlie is 2 1/2 year older than Percy, and started 3 years before 
him.  He would've then been in his third year at the time of the 
legendary match.  Perhaps his second season.

I can't remember off hand, but I think Wood simply says he saw 
Charlie play.  This seems to imply that they did not play together, 
but does not rule out the possibility entirely.  We don't know for 
sure who the Gr seeker was the year before Harry started; but it 
seems highly unlikely that it was Charlie.  This means that Charlie 
was already gone that year, or was there but didn't play.  The 
former seems more likely.  So we either need to push Charlie's age 
back one more year, or consider that he left after his sixth year.  
Still close to what Rowling said, and without violating anything 
else.

As an aside, the year before Harry started, we know that the Gr team 
consisted of Wood, the Weasley twins (their first season), Angelina 
Johnson, Katie Bell, and Alicia Spinnett (first season for all also, 
based on their year) and two unknown players (two because either KB 
or AS had been an alternate the year before).  We also know that the 
year before that, Wood is the only one of the known players who 
would've been old enough to have been on the team, but we don't know 
for sure that he was on the team that year.  That could've been 
Charlie's last year on the team.

Lionel





From greatelderone at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 12 07:41:44 2004
From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 07:41:44 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Harry and Hermione together per JKR chat?
In-Reply-To: <c2oq4m+ag2r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2rpjo+pfme@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92789

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> 
wrote:
> ::blinks:: Is this movie contamination? Or maybe we're *not* 
> reading the same book <g>

I very much doubt it. Some people(like me) haven't even seen the 
movie. :)

> Hermione worked awfully hard to get Ron and Harry back 
> together in GoF.  

Possibly because she understood that the three of them were stronger 
together than apart.

> Alot of  Hermione's  social development seems 
> to be more down to Ron than Harry. Ron's the one who gets her 
> to play games, takes her on her first visit to Hogsmeade, invites 
> her to stay with his family,

I really don't understand how these points are significant for social 
development. I agree Ron helps her adjust to the magical world just 
as he did for Harry however I'm sure she probably did all these 
things in her previous years when she wasn't attending Hogwarts. 
Besides none of these things are things that go against her nature 
imo.

> and lets her know  more than once 
> that being too much like Percy is not on.

And being friends with Harry is what changes her in my frank opinion. 
Who does she lie for? Who does she break the rules( including brewing 
a dangerous potion, helping with an illegal club and breaking into 
the headmaster's office) for? If it wasn't for Harry she would be a 
very different person ditto for Harry if Hermione wasn't there.




From gbannister10 at aol.com  Fri Mar 12 07:44:27 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 07:44:27 -0000
Subject: The Strange Case of the Altered Spelling
In-Reply-To: <c2r3nk+prhq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2rpor+esfr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92790

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" 

Carol:
> For the record, it *ought* to be "Sibyl(l)" to conform with "sibyl"
> (prophetess) unless the British spelling of that word differs from 
the
> American one. (I've recently been told that the British spelling of
> "artifact" is "artefact," which to my eyes still looks like a typo.)


Geoff:
Can I just refer you back to the etymological notes on the name Sybil 
which I posted in message 92650?

Just in passing, spellings like color, honor, center and the rather 
mixed use of z instead of s look odd to UK eyes.....


Carol:
> As for those mysterious numbers, they're the printing history of 
your
> edition of PoA. Ignoring that mysterious 23, which doesn't appear to
> fit the picture, the numbers on the left (which for God knows what
> reason should be read from right to left) indicate that this is the
> fifteenth printing of the American first edition, with nine 
subsequent
> printings anticipated (numbers 16-24). The numbers on the right are
> the years in which some of these new printings are anticipated, with
> 9/9 as the date of the present impression (printing).
> 
> If anyone's curious (and I'm sure nobody is), my Scholastic Trade
> Paperback (first printing, September 2001) has the same reading and
> page number as your hardback and the following printing code
> 
> 12 11 10 9 8 7         1 2 3 4 5 6/0


Geoff:
The Bloomsbury UK editions seem to lack the second set of data. My 
hardback GOF, for example, lists 10 9 8 7 6.




From gbannister10 at aol.com  Fri Mar 12 07:50:13 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 07:50:13 -0000
Subject: The Grim?
In-Reply-To: <Sea2-F11mbsjAGFJsOW0003dec8@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <c2rq3l+mqp7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92791

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathy King" <kking0731 at h...> 
wrote:

Kathy:
> Also, Grimmald sounds very much like the dark lord that Dumbledore 
defeated 
> in 1945, Grindelwald. Wonder if there's anything with that?

Geoff:
It has been suggested in the past that this is another of JKR's puns 
on names along the lines of Diagon Alley and Knockturn Alley. 
Grimmauld= grim old. Auld is a Scots dialect word for old. Edinburgh 
has the nickname of "Auld Reekie" and JKR has Edinburgh connections.




From gbannister10 at aol.com  Fri Mar 12 07:55:55 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 07:55:55 -0000
Subject: LV's Irrational Behavior (was: Re: LV as Blofeld/Dr Evil?)
In-Reply-To: <c2ra95+cck5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2rqeb+10ish@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92792

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jdr0918" <jdr0918 at h...> wrote:
> <<<In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, 

Dave: 
> ...But then Voldie shows up "in poisson" to finish him off, *still* 
> not 
> knowing what the Prophecy says, and whether this latest attempt to 
> kill him will also fail.  It's as though he just suddenly slapped 
his 
> forehead and said to himself, "Oh, what am I thinking? There's 
> nothing special about Harry Potter, and I've wasted a year 
obsessing 
> over a dumb, meaningless prophecy..." 
> Is it me, or does something not make sense here?>>>


JDR:
> Voldemort seemes to have developed a case of "Gargamel Syndrome". 

<snip>

Geoff:
My mind moved into the real world and I thought of Hitler. He was 
often an excellent strategist but, on occasions (especially later in 
the Second World War), took decisions (often in the face of other 
advice) which were absolutely crazy.




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 12 07:56:31 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 07:56:31 -0000
Subject: Apparating into the Ministry...
In-Reply-To: <c2ojo9+bbk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2rqff+c0d8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92793

Elihu wrote: If apparation/Disapparation isn't possible to all
locations in the MOM, then 
the Dept of Mysteries would be among the places that you can't
apparate to. However, 
Dumbledore had to put the DEs in a room with an anti-apparation jinx.
That means that, 
if fact, you can disapparate from anywhere in the ministry.
> 
Rachael's Reply: I agree that this is a likely possibility. The
secrecy of the DOM would 
need to be protected by anti-apparation spells because I doubt that
the Ministry would 
even allow the possibility that any old wizard could just apparate
into it (think what the 
Weasley Twins would do if this were possible!)  But, if only select
wizards, 
"unspeakables", are allowed in, there should be no harm in allowing
those authorized 
wizards to disapparate when they are ready to leave.
Another thought is, maybe if a place is spelled against apparation, it
is automatically 
spelled against disapparation.  However, apparation into the DOM I
definitely think is a no, no.


Carol:
I definitely agree that you can't apparate or disapparate into the DoM
itslef. Bode, an "unspeakable" who works in the DoM, may well have
apparated into the atrium (with a lot of other people), but he rides
the lift with Harry and Mr. Weasley. But I'm pretty sure that you
can't apparate or disapparate *anywhere* in the MoM except the atrium,
which is where everyone seems to enter and leave the building--even LV
and Dumbledore. If you can apparate inside the building, why have
lifts on every floor? Even the memos take the lift. 

Carol, who apologizes to Elihu for getting the books wrong in a
previous post (which is what I get for trusting my memory at a late
hour) and points out (politely) that he put two r's in her name in a
different post, so I guess we all make mistakes, right? :-)




From drednort at alphalink.com.au  Fri Mar 12 08:15:54 2004
From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 19:15:54 +1100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Need Quote: Help with Sirius's Motorcyle - More
In-Reply-To: <c2rp7n+jhpj@eGroups.com>
References: <4050D322.7589.15DA4B8@localhost>
Message-ID: <40520C6A.6240.2D6917@localhost>

No: HPFGUIDX 92794

On 12 Mar 2004 at 7:35, justcarol67 wrote:

> Shaun, what are the other numbers? 0 1 2 3 4/0 or something like that?
> the smallest number is the year of publication, which ought to be 2000
> based on what you've said.

I've just put up a scan of the publication page at 
http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/hpcrtm.gif

All I can say is that the trademark information indicates the 
edition must be from 2000 at the earliest - beyond that, I'm not 
sure. I think those numbers at the bottom relate to the printing 
from something I read years ago - but I don't know exactly how to 
read them.


Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia




From quigonginger at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 12 08:29:34 2004
From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 08:29:34 -0000
Subject: Celery
Message-ID: <c2rsde+lfm7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92795

This is one of those stupid, nagging things that probably has no 
relevance to the plot, but bugs me anyway.

In GoF, the Smeltings nurse gives Petunia a diet for Dudley which 
includes cottage cheese with grated celery (p. 40 US).  Isn't the 
point of eating celery on a diet a combination of the fact that 
celery is largely water (which would be lost in the grating process) 
and the fact that it is all stringy (also lost in grating) and has to 
be chewed much more than is worth one's time, thus burning calories?

Any dieticians out there?  This has been grating on my for years!

Ginger, vetran dieter, who has never eaten grated celery on even the 
oddest diets.




From quigonginger at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 12 09:10:31 2004
From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 09:10:31 -0000
Subject: Filk:  It takes a house elf
Message-ID: <c2ruq7+fd4q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92796

It Takes a House-Elf, to the Tune of "It Takes a Woman" from Hello, 
Dolly.  Music and lyrics by Jerry Herman. 

To Haggridd, hoping he'll be back with us soon.

The totally non-canonical trio of Lucius Malfoy, Barty Crouch Sr, and 
the portrait of Mother Black sing an ode to House-Elves.

Barty:
It takes a house-elf with tomatoe nose
To make sure your son has invisible clothes.
And it takes a servant in tea-towel dressing
To keep all your secrets when memories you're messing.

All: (refrain)
Yes, it takes a house-elf, a trusty house-elf
A worker, a servant, an elf. 
Oh, yes it takes a house-elf, an enslaved house-elf
To do things I won't do myself.

Lucius:
The down-trod house-elf who irons its hands
And bowing and grov'ling meets all my demands.
And it takes my orders when I am reclining, 
And follows me 'round when my shoes need a shining.

All repeat refrain

All: 
And so they'll work in all humility.
Three cheers for their ability.
Rah, rah, rah,
H-Ow-S, E-L-F

Madam Black's protrait:
It's even usefull when properly dead.
Such fine decoration you get from its head.
And should its service not end with such closing,
It gratefully serves you when you're decomposing.

All repeat refrain, repeat refrain again, then refrain from repeating.

Ginger, whose backspace key keeps sticking.




From psychobirdgirl at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 12 09:44:06 2004
From: psychobirdgirl at yahoo.com (psychobirdgirl)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 09:44:06 -0000
Subject: Faithful servant debate/Total Death eaters
In-Reply-To: <20040312030653.64036.qmail@web13501.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c2s0p6+2ks8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92797

I think maybe that the ones in the graveyard are referred to as the 
inner circle, so while there may be more in Azkaban and some 
unmentioned escapees, they would not have necessarily been in the 
graveyard, which seemed invitaion only ,for the best of the worst to 
see thier lord rise again to power, in which those invited could 
share.

psychobirdgirl




From quigonginger at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 12 09:55:26 2004
From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 09:55:26 -0000
Subject: Filk: Rodolphus
Message-ID: <c2s1ee+u40g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92798

Rodolphus to the tune of "Fernando" by ABBA.

To Siriusly Snapey Susan, cuz I like her name.

Bellatrix: singing to her hubby during their time in Azkaban

Can you hear their screams, Rodolphus?
I remember cursing them to find our Master long ago.
In Longbottom's house, Rodolphus,
You were causing pain to them and waving madly with your wand.
I could hear their screams of pain
As our spells drove their fragile mental state beyond.

Then they busted us, Rodolphus.
And they placed us all on trial with no chance of us going free.
I was proud and brave, Rodolphus.
We were serving our Dark Lord and headed straight for Azkaban.
And I'm proud that we were there 
With Barty junior and your brother Rabastan.

Refrain:
There was triumph in our eyes that night.
They glittered bright, Rodolphus.
They were shining there with one accord, 
For our Dark Lord, Rodolphus.
We knew honour would be our reward
When he returned.
If I had to Crucio again, 
I would, my friend, Rodolphus.
If I had to Crucio again, 
I would, my friend, Rodolphus.

Now we're in our cells, Rodolphus.
Dementors breath is rattling out our lullaby tonight.
They are cold and bleak, Rodolphus.
Every happy thought is wrested from my mind but this remains.
I can feel the surge of pow'r
I felt when "crucio" I cried and caused their pains.

Repeat refrain 

Ginger, who thinks this one is a bit disturbing.




From greatelderone at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 12 10:01:49 2004
From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 10:01:49 -0000
Subject: Faithful servant debate/Total Death eaters
In-Reply-To: <20040312030653.64036.qmail@web13501.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c2s1qd+kqe6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92799

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ms Mo Me <fauntine_80 at y...> 
wrote:
> If my math is correct, Voldemort only mentions the two
> who are still in Azkaban (the Lestranges). Yet 10
> escape, and weren't there more than just 10 people
> convicted and sentenced to life???
> So, it doesn't add up, or does it?

I think the 10 in Azakaban, only the Lestranges held the most 
interest since Bellatrix was something of a protege of his and they 
along with Crouch were the only ones that attempted to find him after 
he got slagged by his own AK.

> Shouldn't there be more people missing in the circle? 

Probably. I think there were a lot of lower tiered DEs that he didn't 
mention and people like Regulus who all either bought the farm or are 
probably in Azkaban.

> And, shouldn't there be more DE prisoners still in
> Azkaban in OotP (I am assuming they all didn't escape
> in OotP) But, then again, back to GoF, that would mean
> there would have to be more than the 6 missing plus
> the 2 empty spots of the Lestranges (still in prison)
> (8 total).  Unless LV forgot to mention some spots of
> the others still in Azkaban.

I think he just didn't bother mentioning people like Mulciber, 
Rookwood and Dolohov. Snape and Karakoff were mentioned since they 
had betrayed him and Crouch was mentioned since he had stayed loyal 
like the Lestranges.

Most of the big ones mentioned in the pensieve have all been broken 
out in OOTP. Rookwood, Mucliber, Dolohov and the three Lestranges. I 
don't think any of them in Azkaban would be of significance probably 
just the minor ones of no use.




From jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com  Fri Mar 12 11:29:47 2004
From: jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com (mooseming)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 11:29:47 -0000
Subject: Significant Lily?
Message-ID: <c2s6vb+7vl8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92800

Thanks Carol for this link in your post #92778, I've never seen this
interview before.

http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/1999/1099-connectiontrans\
c.html

 I was intrigued by the following JKR statement:

"Now the important thing about Harry's mother, the really, really
significant thing, you're going to find out in 2 parts. You'll find
out a lot more about her in Book 5, or you'll find out something very
significant about her in Book 5, then you'll find out something
incredibly important about her in Book 7. But I can't tell you what
those things are so I'm sorry, but yes, you will find out more about
her because both of them are very important in what Harry ends up
having to do."

What on earth was the significant thing in book 5? How can anything we
learnt about Lily in OotP influence what Harry has to do?

Jo

Frankly Bemused




From gbannister10 at aol.com  Fri Mar 12 11:38:37 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 11:38:37 -0000
Subject: Celery, what celery? (Was Re: Celery)
In-Reply-To: <c2rsde+lfm7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2s7ft+7aud@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92801

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "quigonginger" 
<quigonginger at y...> wrote:

Ginger:
> This is one of those stupid, nagging things that probably has no 
> relevance to the plot, but bugs me anyway.
> 
> In GoF, the Smeltings nurse gives Petunia a diet for Dudley which 
> includes cottage cheese with grated celery (p. 40 US).  Isn't the 
> point of eating celery on a diet a combination of the fact that 
> celery is largely water (which would be lost in the grating 
process) 
> and the fact that it is all stringy (also lost in grating) and has 
to 
> be chewed much more than is worth one's time, thus burning calories?
> 
> Any dieticians out there?  This has been grating on my for years!

Geoff:
This looks like another of these odd little items, like Sirius's 
motor bike.....

Consulting my GOF, I can't find a reference to celery unless I have 
gone cross-eyed or something. The relevant bit reads:

"The diet sheet that had been sent by the Smeltings school nurse had 
been taped to the fridge which had been emptied of all Dudley's 
favourite things - fizzy drinks and cakes, chocolate bars and 
burgers - and filled instead with fruit and vegetables and the sorts 
of things that Uncle Vernoncalled 'rabbit food'."

(GOF "The Invitation" p.30 UK edition)

The only specific things I can see mentioned are grapefruit and 
carrot sticks.

The thick plotens......  :-)





From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Fri Mar 12 12:16:22 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 12:16:22 -0000
Subject: On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
In-Reply-To: <c2qvvr+t11r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2s9mm+jimq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92802

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67 at y...> wrote:
> 
> Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding this part of your post. No one from
> the WW has met the Dursleys face to face? What about Hagrid in SS/PS
> and Mr. Weasley, Ron, and the twins in PoA, not to mention the MoM
> employees who did a memory charm on Aunt Marge? Or are you talking
> about Dumbledore himself and the original arrangement involving Harry?
> (There's also Mrs. Figg, who could have communicated information to
> Petunia regarding Harry that Vernon doesn't know about.)
> 

You have misunderstood, but I  forgive you.

The point at discussion was how the Dursleys could negotiate a "handling
fee'  for looking after Harry after he had been dumped on the front step.
What (if anything) did the Dursleys get for looking after Harry and how,
during Harry's infancy could they renegotiate the agreement or even try a 
little discreet blackmail if they weren't satisfied.

The  canon suggests that no-one went near them for 10 years or so.
They apparently had no knowledge of Arabella's involvement with DD. In
any case, they would not be inclined to talk to neighbours about the family 
shame.

DD could contact them at any time but so far as we are aware, there were
no arrangements for the Dursleys to initiate a correspondence.

Kneasy




From catherinemck at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 12 12:23:33 2004
From: catherinemck at hotmail.com (catherinemckiernan)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 12:23:33 -0000
Subject: Filk: Tom he was a mudblood's son (and others!)
Message-ID: <c2sa45+q84n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92803

For quigonginger, because I've just read "Rodolohus," which was 
utterly marvellous!

I was inspired by the sudden rash of filks on the Harry Potter
Filk's page http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm on the subject 
of Aberforth and the Goat. 

The (hopefully obvious) tunes of this little nursery rhyme triptych 
are "I Had a Little Nut Tree," "Tom he was a Piper's Son," and "Oh 
Dear What Can the Matter Be?"

*

I had a little hercine
Nothing could compare
To her loving dark eyes
And her silky hair. 

The journos of the Prophet 
All turned out to gloat
When I was convicted of
Inappropriate charms on a goat. 

*

Tom he was a Mudblood's son, 
Learned the Dark Arts when he was young.
By eighteen he could use AK!
The Riddle family to slay.

Don't leave your wife if she's a witch ? 
Payback always is a bitch!

*

Oh dear, what can the matter be
Moaning Myrtle's stuck in the lavatory
Even though it's sad and unsanitary
Nobody in Hogwarts cared. 

The basilisk petrified ghosts, girls, and boys yet
The staff were completely unable to foil it.
If Harry should die he could share Myrtle's toilet ? 
It's a good thing the phoenix was there.

Catherine McK






From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Fri Mar 12 12:29:57 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 12:29:57 -0000
Subject: Does LV know it was Snape who sent the Order to the MoM? (Was: Snape the Coward?
In-Reply-To: <c2ra3r+9gq2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2sag5+e7ql@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92804

Carol wrote:
> <snip> Dumbledore wasn't at Hogwarts and couldn't have known that
> Harry was heading for the MoM unless someone told him, and who else
> could it be besides Snape? <snip>
 
Max responded:
> > Kreacher.  

Carol again:
> But my point is that LV and Malfoy *knew* that DD was not at 
> Hogwarts and therefore could not have known about Harry going to 
> the MoM if Snape hadn't contacted either him or the Order or both. 
> There was no one else at Hogwarts who could have done it. 
<snip> 
> Can you think of a lie that could excuse him or 
> someone else he could blame without betraying the Order? 
<snip> 
> Sorry. I don't follow. How would the Order have known that Harry 
> was missing (and heading for the MoM) if Snape hadn't told them? 

Susan:
Ummmm.  I thought I addressed this in post #92652.  In that, I 
talked about a couple of lies which I believe could have worked.  
Here:

>>>A couple of possibilities for alternative scenarios I can think of
are:

1) Is it not possible (though not very exciting, I'll grant), that
Harry could have left a note w/ someone? Maybe another DA member,
with instructions to owl it to an Order member [Dung, Moody,
Kingsley, Tonks]?
2) Is it not also possible, given how owls can find *anyone*, that
Harry could have run up to the owlery himself before leaving and sent
an owl to DD? [We have canon for this possibility. Remember Harry
sending owls to Sirius when Sirius was on the run?]

Those aren't very exciting possibilities, but they are at least other
possibilities than that Snape contacted DD to tell him about Harry's
rushing off to the MoM.<<<

Again, we know they're not true, but would Voldy know?  Voldy knows 
that Potter has allies, even if he doesn't know about The Order 
itself [and I suspect that he does].  Passing along one of these 
tales [#2 seems more likely, to me] could get Snape off the hook, 
could it not?

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net  Fri Mar 12 12:43:12 2004
From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 6:43:12 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Significant Lily?
Message-ID: <20040312124312.FPQR2031.out003.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 92805

{Jo}

I was intrigued by the following JKR statement:

"Now the important thing about Harry's mother, the really, really
significant thing, you're going to find out in 2 parts. You'll find
out a lot more about her in Book 5, or you'll find out something very
significant about her in Book 5, then you'll find out something
incredibly important about her in Book 7. But I can't tell you what
those things are so I'm sorry, but yes, you will find out more about
her because both of them are very important in what Harry ends up
having to do."

What on earth was the significant thing in book 5? How can anything we
learnt about Lily in OotP influence what Harry has to do?


{Anne/Silverthorne}

Isn't it obvious? (Think about other things that are supposed to happen in book 7--such as JK revelaing Snape's motives and fate).

Lilyi stood up for Snape against Potter and the others during the Pensieve in book 5--something I doubt very many people have done for Sev, and most that have most likely did not do so in front of him.

SHIPing aside...considering Snape, his reputation, and how he's treated by most folks, young and old alike--you don't think that didn';t sink in at some point and help to change him? (Say, for example, factoring into his decision to leave the DE when he was younger?)

Since Rowling made a point of Lily 'rescuing' him (well, at least for making the attempt), I suspect that whole incident figures quite a bit in the whole Snape thing--and not just as a justification for why Snape hated Harry's father and his friends...I suspect it will actaully affect Snape and his reasons for doing whatever he does in book 7...

Just a thought

Anne


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From catherinemck at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 12 12:49:40 2004
From: catherinemck at hotmail.com (catherinemckiernan)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 12:49:40 -0000
Subject: Significant Lily?
In-Reply-To: <c2s6vb+7vl8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2sbl4+f1cv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92806

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mooseming" <jo.sturgess at b...> 
wrote:

Jo wrote: 

> Thanks Carol for this link in your post #92778, I've never seen this
> interview before.
> 
> http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/1999/1099-
connectiontrans\
> c.html
> 
>  I was intrigued by the following JKR statement:
> 
> "Now the important thing about Harry's mother, the really, really
> significant thing, you're going to find out in 2 parts. You'll find
> out a lot more about her in Book 5, or you'll find out something 
very
> significant about her in Book 5, then you'll find out something
> incredibly important about her in Book 7. But I can't tell you what
> those things are so I'm sorry, but yes, you will find out more about
> her because both of them are very important in what Harry ends up
> having to do."
> 
> What on earth was the significant thing in book 5? How can anything 
we
> learnt about Lily in OotP influence what Harry has to do?

Now me: 

Intriguing indeed! My theory is that we did find out something very 
significant/incredibly important about Lily in book. We learned that 
she was a member of a secret society dedicated to fighting the Dark 
Lord. We learned that she had actively defied him three times and 
lived to tell the tale. We learned that because of this her son was a 
possible subject of a prophecy, which is why Voldemort sought to 
destroy her and she thereby got caught in the crossfire and was 
killed. We learned that she and James were not love's young dream 
from the age of twelve, but that she had a strong personality, and 
was unafraid to speak up in the face of something she believed to be 
wrong (the humiliation of Snape).

That lot seems pretty significant to me! The fact that Harry is 
involved with the Order and the subject of the prophecy which also 
involved Lily is going to be a pretty big influence on what he has to 
do ? allegedly to kill Voldemort. But I'm sure there's more, of 
course, we just haven't spotted it.

We also learned (because come on, we have to speculate) that on both 
occasions when Snape sees her (in the Pensieve and in Harry's 
thoughts during Occlumency, when he sees Lily and James and having 
been infinitesimally sympathetic over the dog suddenly become very 
agressive) he loses all his precious self-control and lapses into his 
worst. Fuel for the LOLLIPOPS fire as far as I'm concerned!

Catherine McK





From nkafkafi at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 12 13:20:01 2004
From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 13:20:01 -0000
Subject: Need Quote: Help with Sirius's Motorcyle - More
In-Reply-To: <c2rodd+90kh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2sde1+9ll0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92807

> Geoff:
> My hardback UK edition, which is dated 1999 on the info page and 
> which I bought last autumn has "get this bike away".
>  
> "Give Sirius his bike back" and "Give Sirius' bike back" would both 
> be acceptable Britishisms.
> 
> Carol:
> Right. Britishisms or Briticisms, but not Americanisms. My point is
> that the American editor is unlikely to be responsible for the 
change
> to "Give Sirius his bike back" because it's not American English, 
and
> if it were the British editor's change
<snip>


Neri:
>From the data we have so far, it appears that pre-2000 UK editions 
have "get this bike away" and post-2000 UK editions have "I'll be 
takin' Sirius his bike back", while all US editions (even pre-2000) 
have "I'll be takin' Sirius his bike back ". 

Since it is now established that "get this bike away" is not just a 
mistake in my you-know-what version, I'll hazard a theory how the US 
edition came to be the first to come out with a correction that was 
later adopted also by the UK version (is this a heavy blow to British 
patriotism?). My guess is that the original manuscript by JKR had 
indeed "I'll be takin' Sirius his bike back". The editor thought that 
it would be distractive for the reader to mention twice a character 
that (so he thought at the time) has no role whatsoever in the plot 
of the book, so he removed the second mention of the name, and JKR 
hadn't had enough authority to object at the time. Remember that it 
was then the first book of an unknown writer and nobody but JKR knew 
that there are meticulous plans for 6 additional books.
 
Next, JKR perhaps had the first chance to correct this wrong if she 
was asked to proofread the "translation" to american before it was 
published, and during this proofreading she managed to sneak in the 
second mention of Sirius' name.

Then she was probably asked to proofread the first UK edition in 
order to correct mistakes for the next UK edition, and by 2000 she 
had enough authority to add the second mention of Sirius in the UK 
version also.

I agree that JKR probably wanted to mention Sirius twice so the 
reader will remember the name for the next books. As for the future 
importance of Sirius' motorcycle to the plot, however, I can't see 
how this detail changes anything. In both cases Hagrid had the bike 
and we don't know what did he do with it.

Neri

  
 





From tcyhunt at earthlink.net  Fri Mar 12 13:48:46 2004
From: tcyhunt at earthlink.net (Tracy Hunt)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 13:48:46 -0000
Subject: Celery, what celery? (Was Re: Celery)
In-Reply-To: <c2s7ft+7aud@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2sf3u+q075@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92808

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" 
<gbannister10 at a...> wrote:

> (GOF "The Invitation" p.30 UK edition)
> 
> The only specific things I can see mentioned are grapefruit and 
> carrot sticks.
> 
> The thick plotens......  :-)

Tcy:

in GoF "Back to the Burrow", p. 40, US edition)

"Lunch was an almost silent meal.  Dudley didn't even protest at the 
food (cottage cheese an grated celery)."

Grated celery on cottage cheese?  Bletch.





From tcyhunt at earthlink.net  Fri Mar 12 14:03:37 2004
From: tcyhunt at earthlink.net (Tracy Hunt)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 14:03:37 -0000
Subject: Snape's memory was:Re: Significant Lily?
In-Reply-To: <20040312124312.FPQR2031.out003.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <c2sfvp+1044h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92809

First mooseming asked:
> "Now the important thing about Harry's mother, the really, really
> significant thing, you're going to find out in 2 parts. You'll find
> out a lot more about her in Book 5, or you'll find out something 
very
> significant about her in Book 5, then you'll find out something
> incredibly important about her in Book 7. But I can't tell you what
> those things are so I'm sorry, but yes, you will find out more about
> her because both of them are very important in what Harry ends up
> having to do."
> 
> What on earth was the significant thing in book 5? How can anything 
we
> learnt about Lily in OotP influence what Harry has to do?
> 

Anne/Silverthorne replied:
> 
> Isn't it obvious? (Think about other things that are supposed to 
happen in book 7--such as JK revelaing Snape's motives and fate).
> 
> Lilyi stood up for Snape against Potter and the others during the 
Pensieve in book 5--something I doubt very many people have done for 
Sev, and most that have most likely did not do so in front of him.
> 
> SHIPing aside...considering Snape, his reputation, and how he's 
treated by most folks, young and old alike--you don't think that 
didn';t sink in at some point and help to change him? (Say, for 
example, factoring into his decision to leave the DE when he was 
younger?)
> 
> Since Rowling made a point of Lily 'rescuing' him (well, at least 
for making the attempt), I suspect that whole incident figures quite 
a bit in the whole Snape thing--and not just as a justification for 
why Snape hated Harry's father and his friends...I suspect it will 
actaully affect Snape and his reasons for doing whatever he does in 
book 7...


Tcy offers:
I know there have been many, many posts on the various aspects 
of "Snape's Worst Memory" - but as far as I can remember, most of 
them look at the underwear schtick being the part that caused the 
torment.  What if that wasn't the part of the memory that still 
haunts our Sevy?  What if it's the fact that Lily offered help and he 
refused it (and in a not-so-nice-way, to boot)?  

Harry believes the abuse Snape took from James and Sirius was the 
*worst memory*.  But that's from his (Harry's) perspective.  We know 
that Harry gets it wrong sometimes - especially where Snape is 
concerned.  We don't hear Snape's explanation of the memory...we're 
left to trust Harry's interpretation...not always a good thing to do, 
is it?




From gbannister10 at aol.com  Fri Mar 12 14:47:04 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 14:47:04 -0000
Subject: Celery, what celery? (Was Re: Celery)
In-Reply-To: <c2sf3u+q075@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2sih8+hniv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92810

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tracy Hunt" <tcyhunt at e...> 
wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" 
> <gbannister10 at a...> wrote:
> 
> > (GOF "The Invitation" p.30 UK edition)
> > 
> > The only specific things I can see mentioned are grapefruit and 
> > carrot sticks.
> > 
> > The thick plotens......  :-)

 
Tcy:
> in GoF "Back to the Burrow", p. 40, US edition)
> 
> "Lunch was an almost silent meal.  Dudley didn't even protest at 
the 
> food (cottage cheese an grated celery)."
> 
> Grated celery on cottage cheese?  Bletch.

Geoff:
Bother. The reference to the Smeltings nurse sent me to the wrong 
chapter and I missed that bit when I skimmed on further. Drat, that's 
one less conspiracy to theorise over; the plot hasn't thickened. How 
boring. 




From tcyhunt at earthlink.net  Fri Mar 12 14:55:03 2004
From: tcyhunt at earthlink.net (Tracy Hunt)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 14:55:03 -0000
Subject: Celery, what celery? (Was Re: Celery)
In-Reply-To: <c2sih8+hniv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2sj07+uhug@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92811

Geoff Bannister wrote:
> 
> (GOF "The Invitation" p.30 UK edition)
> 
> The only specific things I can see mentioned are grapefruit and 
> carrot sticks.
> 
> The thick plotens......  :-)
 
  
> Tcy:
> in GoF "Back to the Burrow", p. 40, US edition)
> 
> "Lunch was an almost silent meal.  Dudley didn't even protest at 
> the food (cottage cheese an grated celery)."
> 
> Grated celery on cottage cheese?  Bletch.

 
> Geoff:
> Bother. The reference to the Smeltings nurse sent me to the wrong 
> chapter and I missed that bit when I skimmed on further. Drat, 
that's 
> one less conspiracy to theorise over; the plot hasn't thickened. 
How 
> boring.

Tcy again:
Sorry to burst your bubble, Geoff.  No celery conspiracy here - but 
there are still 2 books left...we may yet find some unscrupulous 
veggies.  I must say, I've often questioned the many pumpkin 
references ;-) 




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Mar 12 15:37:08 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 15:37:08 -0000
Subject: Snape and the MOM  (Was: Snape the coward or the one left forever?
In-Reply-To: <c2rhg6+jnm4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2slf4+bcpi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92812

 ?? ?PforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" 
<justcarol67 at y...> wrote:
> Carol wrote:
> Maybe I'm assuming, as usual, but Kreacher 
> probably knew that Snape had contacted the Order members 
> and he could well have reported it to Malfoy or Narcissa. Even if 
> Kreacher didn't talk, therewas no one else at Hogwarts who 
> could have told Dumbledore and the Order to go to the MoM to 
> rescue Harry. (It couldn't have been McGonagall, who was in 
St. 
> Mungo's, and besides, she knew less than Snape about LV's 
> plans.)<<
> 
> Pippin responded:
> Snape only needs to tell Voldie that he's just discovered that 
the 
> Order knew all along that only Voldemort or Harry could get the 
> prophecy from the MoM and that the Order had also been 
> informed about Harry's dreams about the Department of 
> Mysteries.  So when Snape reported to the Order that Harry 
was 
> missing, after searching in the forest and otherwise delaying 
as 
> long as he could without rousing suspicion, they unfortunately 
> already knew where to look. 
>  
> He could also claim that he could hardly avoid contacting the 
> Order about Harry's cryptic message, since it would definitely 
> have aroused Dumbledore's suspicions if he hadn't. Even if 
> Harry never came back from the Department of Mysteries, a 
> number of other students had heard him.
>  
> Carol:
> You seem to be assuming that LV knows that Snape is in the 
Order. I'm assuming that his membership in the Order is part of 
what he's covering up and that he's only sharing information 
about Hogwarts and Dumbledore with LV. Do you have any 
basis for your view?<<

I'm assuming that Snape is still alive because he convinced 
Voldemort that he, Snape, was in Dumbledore's confidence and 
was willing to betray that confidence to LV.  Of course he would 
be expected to  maintain that confidence. It would be difficult to 
do that if Dumbledore discovered that Snape had not reported 
the incident with Umbridge or Harry's disappearance.

Presumably Voldemort knows that there is a conspiracy  helping 
Dumbledore, even if he doesn't know that it is called the Order of 
the Phoenix or that it meets at Grimmauld Place or who exactly is 
in it. Order was just a bit of shorthand...you could replace it with  
"Dumbledore or his contacts" if you like.


Pippin




From mad_maxime at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 12 07:54:21 2004
From: mad_maxime at hotmail.com (mad_maxime)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 07:54:21 -0000
Subject: Does LV know it was Snape who sent the Order to the MoM? (Was: Snape the Cow
In-Reply-To: <c2ra3r+9gq2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2rqbd+m8n2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92813

Carol, while I can certainly see the logic of your argument and can
concede that it might well be true, there are just too many unknowns
here for me to fully agree. 

Carol wrote:
> <snip> Dumbledore wasn't at Hogwarts and couldn't have known that
> Harry was heading for the MoM unless someone told him, and who else
> could it be besides Snape? <snip>

Max:

How does anyone know Dumbledore wasn't at Hogwarts?  The fact is, we
have no idea where Dumbledore was hiding.  Hogwarts is a strange and
mysterious place.  Who's to say that Dumbledore wasn't able to monitor
the goings on at Hogwarts quite closely, coming and going incognito
(in animagus form for instance).

As for him knowing where Harry was headed, this series is full of
seemingly impossible instances of Dumbledore knowing Harry's exact
whereabouts or having knowledge of Harry's current situation in a way
that makes him seem practically omniscient .  How does he do it?  We
do not know, although there have been many theories - spies, a network
of portraits, some type of magical apparatus that connects him to
Harry, he *is*, in fact, omniscient - lol, etc., etc.

For all we know, Dumbledore could have set up some sort of alarm
system so that he would be alerted if Harry were ever to leave the
Hogwarts Grounds.  You must admit, a group of students flying off on
the backs of seven Thestrals would be pretty hard to miss if one was
alert to the situation.

> Max responded:
> <snip>OotP (p.830-831 US Edition): "All agreed to go to your
> [Harry's] aid at once.  Professor Snape requested that Sirius remain
> behind, as he needed someone at headquarters to tell me [Dumbledore]
> what had happened, for I was due there at any moment. . . But Sirius
> did not wish to remain behind while the others went to search for 
> you. He delegated to Kreacher the task of telling me what happened."

> Carol again:
> Dumbledore is "due there at any moment" because Snape contacted him
> before he contacted the Order. How else would DD have known to go to
> Grimmauld Place and how else would Snape know he was going? But my
> point is that LV and Malfoy *knew* that DD was not at Hogwarts and
> therefore could not have known about Harry going to the MoM if Snape
> hadn't contacted either him or the Order or both. There was no one
> else at Hogwarts who could have done it.<snip>
 
Max:

Dumbledore could be due at Grimmauld Place "any moment" for a number
of reasons, and Snape contacting him before contacting the Order is
only one of them. Dumbledore could have contacted the Order himself
when he realized, through his own means, what Harry might be up to.
Or, no one had been able to make recent contact with Dumbledore, but
they were expecting him anyway because of a pre-designated agreement
that was set up prior to Harry's situation (which is where I was
coming from when I posted previously that Kreacher was the one to
inform Dumbledore).

Since I don't believe that we as the readers can be *certain* of DD's
whereabouts or that DD doesn't have his own means of tracking Harry, I
don't believe that Voldemort or Malfoy can be *certain* either.  They
may have suspicions, certainly.  But Snape could easily come up with
credible evidence that Dumbledore was capable of monitoring the
situation without his help, and that D was the one to alert the Order
not he. And Dumbledore's ability to extract the truth from Kreacher
regarding the plan to trick Harry should only bolster Snape's case. 
Voldemort and Malfoy would have no idea, after all, when Dumbledore's
conversation with Kreacher occurred - ie. before the Order left for
the DoM or after.

The one point I fully agree with you on is that Kreacher is now a big
liability.  What does he know. . . and what would he be able to share
now that Sirius is gone?  I think we can all agree that if Sirius were
still alive, Kreacher would never be able to share any information
that might implicate Snape double crossing Voldemort.  The question
is, will he be able to do so now?  Does he even know that Snape is
*really* on the Order's side (do *we* even know that - lol), or that
Snape was the one to alert the Order?  We only know Sirius ordered him
to inform Dumbledore of their plans.  Kreacher might have no idea who
alerted the Order.

My guess is that Dumbledore must be taking very careful measures in
Book 6 to make sure Kreacher is not able to leave Grimmauld Place
again.  Perhaps they can obliviate some of his memories as well?

Carol wrote:
<snip>
> It's only when LV senses that the prophecy has been broken that he
> risks everything to apparate into the atrium of the MoM, where he's
> forced to fight the newly arrived Dumbledore. Bellatrix will tell 
> him what happened in the battle, but LV (with her help) will have to
> figure out how the Order and Dumbledore knew to go there. Malfoy, in
> prison, already knows the events in the MoM, but he, too, will be
> thinking about the Order and Dumbledore. And IMO, they will both
> arrive at the same conclusion. Only one person could have known that
> they were trying to steal the prophecy AND that Harry had gone to 
> save Sirius.
<snip>   

Max:

And this is the main point we differ on.  The entire Order knows that
Voldemort is trying to steal the prophecy.  And, imo, V and/or Malfoy
have no way of knowing what Dumbledore is capable of finding out on
his own, or what other 'spies' or Order members might have been
present at Hogwarts when Harry decided to take flight.  Why does Snape
have to be the *only* one who could have known anything?

I think that Voldemort and Malfoy might very well have doubts about
Snape's loyalties after the events at the DoM, but I think there is a
large enough error for uncertainty here that he should be able to put
any possible suspicions at ease.





From earendil_fr at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 12 10:08:36 2004
From: earendil_fr at yahoo.com (earendil_fr)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 10:08:36 -0000
Subject: Snape still a Deatheater? (Was: Re: Snape and the MOM )
In-Reply-To: <c2ro8l+10uph@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2s274+hkb8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92814

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snapesmate" <snapesmate at h...> 
wrote:
> Is there actually canon stating Snape is still a DE?  I mean, his 
> ability to discover what Voldemort is saying to his followers 
could 
> be because of something else...  his legilimancy skills (used on 
best 
> bud Lucius perhaps?) Possibly being an unregistered animagus 
> himself?  I know some speculate whether or not he is part or even 
all 
> vampire, but what if he has batlike chracteristics because he has 
the 
> animagus form of a bat?  Sirius had a few doglike characteristics, 
> ie. his bark like laugh, etc.  
> Lynnette, who thinks Snape IS a good guy, even if he is NOT a nice 
> guy!

(Hello everyone, I'm new here, and this will be my first post!)

There is no actual canon stating *clearly* that Snape is still a DE. 
There are only few hints pointing in that direction. All we *do* 
know for sure is that at the end of Gobelet of Fire Dumbledore asked 
Snape if he was ready to do something Snape seemed to dread. The 
only thing that would indicate that Snape could still be a DE: 
Harry's thoughts as he's about to get on the Hogwarts Express (at 
the end of Gobelet of Fire as well). Harry wonders if what 
Dumbledore asked Snape to do is to become a spy again as a DE.

JKR usually uses Harry's thoughts to hint at something she wants the 
reader to think. So either this is the truth, either she wants us to 
believe Snape is a DE to cover something else, much bigger.

There's also the hint during the Occlumency lesson that Snape is 
indeed the one in the Order in charge of knowing what Voldemort and 
his followers are up to. As you said Lynnette, that still doesn't 
mean he's a DE, he could get his information some other way.

However, I doubt he would be able to get information from another DE 
(like Malfoy for instance as was suggested in a previous post by 
Carol I believe) without being one himself. Not returning to the 
Dark Lord's side is considered as a betrayal and any other DE, 
friend or not, would be very suspicious of him. If Snape isn't a DE 
he has to have another way to get his information.

About Snape being a vampire, I think JKR denied this in an 
interview, but I don't remember clearly so I could be wrong.

As for the Animagus theory, I doubt Snape would be one. We already 
know about more unregistered Animagi (Sirius, James, Pettigrew, 
Skeeter) than registered ones (McGonagall). Adding yet another 
unregistered Animagus would be pushing it a bit too far IMO, 
especially since becoming an Animagus is supposed to be a very hard, 
complex and dangerous task (even if that wouldn't stop a clever 
wizard like Snape), closely controlled by the Ministry (even if the 
Ministry's inefficiency has been proven over and over).


Earendil, who agrees with Lynnette about Snape (you don't have to be 
a nice guy to be a good guy! ;-)





From earendil_fr at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 12 10:50:30 2004
From: earendil_fr at yahoo.com (earendil_fr)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 10:50:30 -0000
Subject: JKR chat--Snape the coward or the one left forever?
In-Reply-To: <c2cbmk+psdn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2s4lm+vs9a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92815

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "puju02" <puju02 at y...> wrote:
> justcarol wrote:
> Puja:
> I agree with Carol that the coward must be Karkaroff coz he fled 
when 
> the scar burned and "one who has left forever" (Snape- coz we know 
he 
> has redeemed himself to Dumbledore)

I'm new here and I suppose this thread has been discussed over and 
over, but I thought I could add my 2 cents.

I sincerely believe Karkaroff to be the "one who has left forever". 
He's the only one (as far as we know from the books and as far as I 
can remember) to have betrayed Voldemort *openly* by giving away 
names of Deatheaters during his trial - even if it was clearly 
cowardice. Because of him, Deatheaters were sent to Azkaban. The 
ones who pretented to have been under an Imperius curse 
were 'forgiven' by Voldemort. But would he be so indulgent with 
someone who clearly betrayed his own? Even if Voldemort considers 
Karkaroff as a coward (which he is) I suppose he would never allow 
him to come back (or to live very long) considering what he did.

By giving away the names of fellow Deatheaters Karkaroff condemned 
himself to never return to the Dark Lord's side. He fled when the 
scar burned. Because he's a coward, that's for sure. But maybe also 
because he knows that should he be found by other Deatheaters, he 
would soon be a dead wizard.

And this would leave Snape as the coward.


Earendil, who's delighted to have found such a wonderful place to 
debate.





From earendil_fr at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 12 11:24:27 2004
From: earendil_fr at yahoo.com (earendil_fr)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 11:24:27 -0000
Subject: Harry and Thestrals
Message-ID: <c2s6lb+90ii@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92816

Is anyone other than I intrigued by the fact that Harry can suddenly 
see Thestrals in Order of the Phoenix?

Thestrals are invisible unless you've had a close contact with death 
(I can't seem to find the quote in the books, does someone remember 
in which chapter Hagrid's lesson with the Thestrals takes place?), 
but Cedric's death isn't Harry's first contact with death. His 
parents' death is his first: he probably saw his mother die. So why 
doesn't he see the Thestrals all along?

Maybe since he was too young to understand what was going on and to 
really be aware of it, he still can't see the Thestrals. But then 
why would Neville be able to see them? Neville was very young too 
when his parents were tortured to madness, and he probably didn't 
realise until he grew up a bit. And it still wasn't a contact 
with 'death' itself. And when it happened, Neville was most 
certainly not there to witness it.

So have I forgotten some details or is it some kind of plothole? Can 
someone think of another explanation? Or is it just me thinking way 
too much?


Earendil.





From mtluinmist at yahoo.com.au  Fri Mar 12 11:58:06 2004
From: mtluinmist at yahoo.com.au (mtluinmist)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 11:58:06 -0000
Subject: On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
In-Reply-To: <c2qvvr+t11r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2s8ke+i3p1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92817

> > > Kneasy:
> > > 
> > > So far as we know no-one from the WW has met them face to face
> > > and the Dursleys  don't seem to have a method of contacting DD
> > > and his merry crew. That  makes negotiations a bit 
problematical.

Perhaps the Dursleys do have a way of contacting DD.  Harry receives 
Christmas presents from them while he's at Hogwarts.  I somehow 
doubt that these presents are sent via Muggle post.
Stuka





From kashelkar at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 12 12:27:12 2004
From: kashelkar at yahoo.com (kashelkar)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 12:27:12 -0000
Subject: two way mirror of sirius
Message-ID: <c2sab0+kh94@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92818

Kashelkar writes:

At the end of Christmas vacations, Sirius hands Harry a badly wrapped 
package.  It contains a two-way mirror, Sirius having the other one.  
So if Harry talked into it, Sirius would be able to see & listen him 
and vice versa.  How come Sirius never uses it himself??  When Harry 
broke into Umbridge's fire to discuss with Sirius the worst memory of 
Snape, why Sirius didn't ask him not to use such dangerous method to 
contact him again, and rather use the mirror given by him???  
Certainly, if Harry hadn't forgotton about this mirror, He'd be able 
to check that Sirius is safe after his vision and Sirius needn't die 
at all.  Also, if it was never to be used why did JKR introduce this 
item in the story at all???





From rredordead at aol.com  Fri Mar 12 15:44:08 2004
From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 15:44:08 -0000
Subject: Malfoy/Karkaroff
In-Reply-To: <c2r7n4+m9da@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2sls8+ee2v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92819

 > Mandy wrote:We know that Lucius stayed true to the dark arts 
> during Voldy's absence, and we know he hung onto some artifacts 
> which he had to quickly get rid of when the Ministry raids began, 
> and that he had Riddle's diary to slip into Ginny's cauldron.  What 
> do you all think about how *loyal* he was to Voldy during 
> those "down" years?  And how loyal now?

 
> Susan:
> Just stepping in to clarify...in case Mandy doesn't really 
> appreciate having my words attributed to her (twice now).  That 
> paragraph above is actually from *my* post, asking Mandy if she 
> minded going off on a Lucius tangent.


Mandy here:
Yes indeed the quote is Susan's, not mine. She should get full credit 
for it and not me. 

I believe that when replying to a post, some people don't think to 
remove the 'header' that the site automatically attributes to that 
reply.   I'm not sure, there seems to be some confusion lately.   It 
is a pain in the ass to edit when replying, but it is necessary to 
avoid confusion in ones post.  Personally, I edit in Word before 
cutting and pasting onto the site.  

It is important to credit the right person with the right quote, 
especially if the parties concerned disagree.  Fortunately Susan and 
I are basically on the same page in this topic so I don't believe any 
feathers have been ruffled too much.  I hope not anyway. ;-) 

Just for the record I was flattered to have my name put on your 
quote, Susan. 

Mandy





From stevejjen at earthlink.net  Fri Mar 12 15:57:33 2004
From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 15:57:33 -0000
Subject: Significant Lily?
In-Reply-To: <c2sbl4+f1cv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2smld+mcb7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92820

Catherine: 
> Intriguing indeed! My theory is that we did find out something 
very 
> significant/incredibly important about Lily in book. We learned 
that 
> she was a member of a secret society dedicated to fighting the 
Dark 
> Lord. We learned that she had actively defied him three times and 
> lived to tell the tale. We learned that because of this her son 
was a 
> possible subject of a prophecy, which is why Voldemort sought to 
> destroy her and she thereby got caught in the crossfire and was 
> killed. We learned that she and James were not love's young dream 
> from the age of twelve, but that she had a strong personality, and 
> was unafraid to speak up in the face of something she believed to 
be 
> wrong (the humiliation of Snape).


Jen: Lily's character development was so important because we 
finally see her as a *person* and not just as a mother. We find out 
that she was a very powerful witch, one who made James and Sirius 
take notice when she pointed her wand at them and they "eyed it 
warily"--not a person to be trifled with!

So we did find out "a lot more about her in Book 5". But JKR then 
goes on to say we will find out "something very significant about 
her in Book 5". I think those are two different points.

In a thread this sunmmer, Richelle noted that in the Pensieve scene 
we find out Lily's eyes are almond-shaped. Since we already know her 
eyes are important, this was some additional information. The only 
other character that has almond-shaped eyes is the sphinx in GOF. 
Coincidence, red herring? I don't think so, because the BIG thing 
we're going to find out about in Book 7 is the Harry/Lily eye 
connection, so the shape is another clue. 

It just seems like the significance of the eyes has to be a power 
Lily and Harry possess that is beyond the normal witch/wizard's 
powers. 

Here's the thread if anyone is interested:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/75287

Jen Reese





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Mar 12 16:03:23 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 16:03:23 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Harry and Hermione together per JKR chat?
In-Reply-To: <c2rpjo+pfme@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2sn0b+chec@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92821

Pippin previously
> > Hermione worked awfully hard to get Ron and Harry back 
> > together in GoF.  

Great Elder One:
> Possibly because she understood that the three of them were 
stronger  together than apart.<

Then surely Ron has some redeeming qualities in her eyes <g>

Pippin previously:
> > Alot of  Hermione's  social development seems  to be more 
down to Ron than Harry. Ron's the one who gets her to play 
games, takes her on her first visit to Hogsmeade, invites her to 
stay with his family,<<

Great Elder One 
> I really don't understand how these points are significant for 
social  development. I agree Ron helps her adjust to the magical 
world just as he did for Harry however I'm sure she probably did 
all these  things in her previous years when she wasn't attending 
Hogwarts. Besides none of these things are things that go 
against her nature imo.<

When Ron wasn't around in GoF, Hermione spent all her time 
with Harry in the Library--no games of  chess or exploding snap. 
It's not that having fun is against her nature, but she seems so 
unsure of herself that she thinks she has to study all the time, 
even though she's already the best student in her year. It's Ron 
who gets her to enjoy herself, IMO. Without him, she'd be doing 
her best to turn Harry into a workaholic.

Pippin continued:
> 
> > and lets her know  more than once 
> > that being too much like Percy is not on.

Great Elder One: 
> And being friends with Harry is what changes her in my frank 
opinion.  Who does she lie for? Who does she break the rules( 
including brewing a dangerous potion, helping with an illegal 
club and breaking into  the headmaster's office<


Who indeed? <g> The dangerous potion was to help *her*, the 
only Muggleborn in the group.No one knew that the Heir had 
targeted Harry. The DA was also to help *her* and the other 
students including Ron--Harry   was  in far less need of practical 
DADA lessons than anyone else in the school. He didn't use any 
spells in the combat which he didn't know already. 

Breaking into Umbridge's office she did for Harry, but  if she 
hadn't, Sirius would still be alive, so maybe she won't be so 
cooperative in the future.

>) If it wasn't for Harry she would be a  very different person ditto 
for Harry if Hermione wasn't there.<

True. But you could say the same about Ron.

Pippin




From jferer at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 12 16:17:07 2004
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 16:17:07 -0000
Subject: LV's Irrational Behavior (was: Re: LV as Blofeld/Dr Evil?)
In-Reply-To: <c2rqeb+10ish@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2snq3+vpfo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92822

> Geoff:
> My mind moved into the real world and I thought of Hitler. He was 
> often an excellent strategist but, on occasions (especially later in 
> the Second World War), took decisions (often in the face of other 
> advice) which were absolutely crazy.

That's the analogy that occurs to me, too.  Voldemort's career is
notable for some of the blunders he committed, Hitlerian ones born of
megalomania.  I really wonder that followers like Lucius don't start
chafing at following a guy who leads them from disaster to disaster,
particularly if I'm right in believing Lucius, prejudiced though he
is, never forgets Number One.

Voldemort is psychosis driven, IMO, a true sociopath, which is another
point of commonality to Hitler.




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Fri Mar 12 16:20:01 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 16:20:01 -0000
Subject: Filk: Rodolphus
In-Reply-To: <c2s1ee+u40g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2snvh+93dq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92823

quigonginger at y... wrote:
> Rodolphus to the tune of "Fernando" by ABBA.
> 
> To Siriusly Snapey Susan, cuz I like her name.
> 
> Bellatrix: singing to her hubby during their time in Azkaban
> 
> Can you hear their screams, Rodolphus?
> I remember cursing them to find our Master long ago.
> In Longbottom's house, Rodolphus,
> You were causing pain to them and waving madly with your wand.
> I could hear their screams of pain
> As our spells drove their fragile mental state beyond.
> 
> Then they busted us, Rodolphus.
> And they placed us all on trial with no chance of us going free.
> I was proud and brave, Rodolphus.
> We were serving our Dark Lord and headed straight for Azkaban.
> And I'm proud that we were there 
> With Barty junior and your brother Rabastan.
> 
> Refrain:
> There was triumph in our eyes that night.
> They glittered bright, Rodolphus.
> They were shining there with one accord, 
> For our Dark Lord, Rodolphus.
> We knew honour would be our reward
> When he returned.
> If I had to Crucio again, 
> I would, my friend, Rodolphus.
> If I had to Crucio again, 
> I would, my friend, Rodolphus.
> 
> Now we're in our cells, Rodolphus.
> Dementors breath is rattling out our lullaby tonight.
> They are cold and bleak, Rodolphus.
> Every happy thought is wrested from my mind but this remains.
> I can feel the surge of pow'r
> I felt when "crucio" I cried and caused their pains.
> 
> Repeat refrain 
> 
> Ginger, who thinks this one is a bit disturbing.

Susan:
Oh my gosh!  My very first FILK dedication!! :-)

Ginger, this is indeed a creepy sort of lyric.  Not to mention that 
ABBA gives me the creeps anyway.  Oh--and that Bella gives me the 
creeps, too.     

Siriusly Snapey Susan...who wishes with all her might that Anjelica 
Huston could be cast as Bella; I could see her crooning this tune!






From owlery2003 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 12 16:30:36 2004
From: owlery2003 at yahoo.com (Scott Santangelo)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 08:30:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] two way mirror of sirius
In-Reply-To: <c2sab0+kh94@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040312163036.40867.qmail@web60104.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92824



kashelkar <kashelkar at yahoo.com> wrote:
Kashelkar writes:

At the end of Christmas vacations, Sirius hands Harry a badly wrapped package.  It contains a two-way mirror, Sirius having the other one.  So if Harry talked into it, Sirius would be able to see & listen him and vice versa.  How come Sirius never uses it himself??  When Harry 
broke into Umbridge's fire to discuss with Sirius the worst memory of Snape, why Sirius didn't ask him not to use such dangerous method to contact him again, and rather use the mirror given by him???  Certainly, if Harry hadn't forgotton about this mirror, He'd be able to check that Sirius is safe after his vision and Sirius needn't die 
at all.  Also, if it was never to be used why did JKR introduce this item in the story at all???

owlery2003 replies:

This is one of my favorite questions. Lots of previous posts on this topic (a few of my own!). I was convinced even before JKR's recent comments that this was too significant to dissapear after Sirius' death, particularly when Harry throws the mirror into his trunk and leaves the broken pieces at the bottom. Something's going to happen there. Don't know if a "reparo" will work on this. Whatever happened to Sirius' mirror is also an unanswered question. If he didn't have it on him at the MOM, it's probably still at #12Gp. Given it was a 2-way communication gizmo, I'm guessing that there's some extension of that use, or possibly that the mirror(s) "remember" past conversations (I'm stretching there, I know). I can see Harry and Lupin going through Sirius' personal effects in the next book and maybe we find out more at that point. When I first considered the mirror thing, I was amazed Harry had "forgotten" about the communication line he had been given. But I'd forgotten that Sirius had
 also, apparently, forgotten to remind Harry. So they were both at "fault" in that regard, which should be of some comfort to Harry.



---------------------------------
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From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Fri Mar 12 16:40:14 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 16:40:14 -0000
Subject: On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
In-Reply-To: <c2s8ke+i3p1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2sp5e+jr1m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92825

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mtluinmist" <mtluinmist at y...> 
wrote:
> > > > Kneasy:
> > > > 
> > > > So far as we know no-one from the WW has met them face to face
> > > > and the Dursleys  don't seem to have a method of contacting DD
> > > > and his merry crew. That  makes negotiations a bit 
> problematical.
> 
> Perhaps the Dursleys do have a way of contacting DD.  Harry 
receives 
> Christmas presents from them while he's at Hogwarts.  I somehow 
> doubt that these presents are sent via Muggle post.
> Stuka

Susan:
I think many have speculated that part of the "information packet" 
Muggle parents/guardians receive is information about how to send 
mail to their children/charges at Hogwarts.  I particularly liked the 
idea that mail is sent to a 1st location, where perhaps the 
postmaster or postmistress is a witch or wizard or squib, and who 
then forwards the packages & letters on via owl post.

I still agree w/ Kneasy, though, that we have no *evidence* that the 
Dursleys have communicated directly with DD.  Not that it's not 
possible, but just that we haven't seen any evidence that it has 
happened.

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From quigonginger at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 12 16:39:46 2004
From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 16:39:46 -0000
Subject: Celery, what celery? (Was Re: Celery)
In-Reply-To: <c2sj07+uhug@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2sp4i+3669@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92826

> > Geoff:
> > Bother. The reference to the Smeltings nurse sent me to the wrong 
> > chapter and I missed that bit when I skimmed on further. Drat, 
> that's 
> > one less conspiracy to theorise over; the plot hasn't thickened. 
> How 
> > boring.

Ginger says:
Sorry about that Geoff.  I try to include page numbers, but with the 
different "translations" it is a bit pointless.  I'll try to give 
more background next time. 
 
> Tcy:
> Sorry to burst your bubble, Geoff.  No celery conspiracy here - but 
> there are still 2 books left...we may yet find some unscrupulous 
> veggies.  I must say, I've often questioned the many pumpkin 
> references ;-)

Ginger:
Unscrupulous veggies, you say?  How about how Uncle Vernon seems to 
resemble those of a reddish hue?  Coupled with him being JKR's most 
disliked person, perhaps the grated celery is foreshadowing?  Uncle 
Vernon sent through a magical cheese grater!  FEATHERBOAS forever!  
Or maybe he just has a grating personality.

Ginger, who is just not sure what has gotten into her today.




From cubs9911 at aol.com  Fri Mar 12 16:50:37 2004
From: cubs9911 at aol.com (cubs99111)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 16:50:37 -0000
Subject: Harry and Thestrals
In-Reply-To: <c2s6lb+90ii@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2spot+fnl1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92827


> Is anyone other than I intrigued by the fact that Harry can suddenly 
> see Thestrals in Order of the Phoenix?
> 

> but Cedric's death isn't Harry's first contact with death. His 
> parents' death is his first: he probably saw his mother die. So why 
> doesn't he see the Thestrals all along?

JR:  We Still don't know if Harry actually saw his mother die and as
you have pointed out, he may have been to young to even realize what
was going on.  JKR said in an interview that after witnessing death,
it needs to "sink in a little"  before you see the thestrals which is
why Harry can see them in Book 5.
> 
> But then 
> why would Neville be able to see them? Neville was very young too 
> when his parents were tortured to madness, and he probably didn't 
> realise until he grew up a bit. And it still wasn't a contact 
> with 'death' itself. And when it happened, Neville was most 
> certainly not there to witness it.
> 
>JR:  Actually, when NEville says that he can see them, Umbridge asks
him who he saw die and he says that he saw his Grandad die.  I hope
this clears some things up for you.


JR
> 





From rrsryan at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 12 03:56:15 2004
From: rrsryan at yahoo.com (rrsryan)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 03:56:15 -0000
Subject: Remus J. Lupin
Message-ID: <c2rccv+3dm1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92828

What is the connection between Lupin and James Potter? I am still of 
the thought that James Lily and Remus were involved in a bit of nifty 
transfiguration. Food for thought Remus always calls Harry Potter by 
his first name.





From jferer at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 12 17:28:34 2004
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 17:28:34 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Harry and Hermione together per JKR chat?
In-Reply-To: <c2sn0b+chec@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2ss02+9ure@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92829

> Pippin previously
> > > Hermione worked awfully hard to get Ron and Harry back 
> > > together in GoF.  
> 
> Great Elder One:
> > Possibly because she understood that the three of them were 
> stronger  together than apart.<
> 
Pippin:Then surely Ron has some redeeming qualities in her eyes <g>

That will never be in dispute from me.  Ron and Hermione are close
friends and always will be. I hope.

> Great Elder One: 
> > And being friends with Harry is what changes her in my frank 
> opinion.  Who does she lie for? Who does she break the rules( 
> including brewing a dangerous potion, helping with an illegal 
> club and breaking into  the headmaster's office"

Very much so. It's Harry and his quest that's given Hermiione a larger
purpose, that's transformed her from a potential Percy into what she
is today, a heroine who is rapidly mastering herself.  Harry is the
glue that holds the Trio together.  Would Ron and Hermione have become
and stayed friends without Harry?  I'm not at all sure.

Great Elder One: If it wasn't for Harry she would be a  very different
person ditto for Harry if Hermione wasn't there.
> 
Pippin: True. But you could say the same about Ron.

Friends influence one another, but to me there's no comparison between
the degree of effect Harry has had on her and the effect Ron has. 
Ron's been the native guide to the wizard world for both of them.

HERMIONE'S UNIQUE QUALIFICATIONS FOR HARRY:

** Hermione has an uncommon understanding of what Harry needs and an
empathy with him.  The Rita Skeeter interview and the DA were
brilliant ideas that helped Harry personally at the same time it did
their bit in the War.  Ron's sturdy friendship and loyalty are
tremendously valuable, but it was Hermione who acted (and she can be
ruthless, can't she? Bless her heart.)

** Hermione knows Harry better than anybody else, even Ron.  She
sensed Harry's rescue complex and called him on it, for example.  She
seems to know what's going through his mind more often than not.  She
will be abe to challenge Harry back to health when it's needed.

** Hermione knows how to handle Harry's notoriety.  She's the one who
counsels Harry to ignore the negative publicity he's gone through, and
takes her own advice.  She shows she can bear up under that stress.

** Hermione makes up for what Harry lacks.  She's deliberate where
Harry is the man of action; she prepares him for trials; she holds him
back (or at least tries) when he needs it.  She's not 100% right every
time in that, but she does prevent him going off half-cocked. 
Hermione Granger and Harry Potter are yin and yang.

WHY I DON'T BELIEVE IN R/H

** I believe Ron and Hermione have different expectations.  I believe
Ron is the Weasley most like Arthur; if he's like Arthur in many ways,
than home and family will be important to him.  I don't think he'd be
happy with Hermione in the long run, who will always seek challenges.

** Ron's and Hermione's thinking and behavior styles are different and
lead to the tension they often have. Ron's a good guy and a priceless
friend, but he jumps to conclusions and thinks with his gut, which
often leads him astray and irritates Hermione no end. Harry thinks
with his head and his heart, while Hermione is an intellectual -
again, yin and yang.

** I wouldn't bet the rent on this one, but Ron and Hermione prove the
point that "nothing propinks like propinquity."  Would they be that
close if it wasn't for their Trio-hood?

** If this R/H romance is going on or just around the corner yet
again, what's she doing writing to Viktor? You could say the same
about Hermione and Harry, but their "romance" hasn't started yet.

** The Harry Factor.  How can Hermione and Ron concentrate on
developing their relationship if so much time is spent keeping Harry
in one piece?  Hermione's time, attention and heart get pulled back to
Harry frequently.

Of course Hermione tried hard to keep Ron and Harry friends.  She's
friends to both, always will be, and knows how important Ron's
friendship is to Harry - it's the Trio, after all.

The decision might be made for us by one of the Trio's death. Hope
not.

HINTS AT HARRY'S FEELINGS THAT HE MIGHT NOT EVEN BE AWARE OF

** The Yule Ball Scene.  He notices Hermione, really notices her as a
girl, and hasn't forgotten it.  It can easily surface again, and I
think it will.

** He spontaneously blurts out "but I don't think you're ugly!" to
Hermione.  I think we should notice that and take it for a hint at
Harry's feelings.

** Harry is integrating parts of Hermione into himself. He hears her
voice, feels her presence.

The wild card? Ginny. I really like the way she's growing up, being
able to integrate Fred and George while keeping her self control.  She
would be supportive and loyal, but she wouldn't bring all the things
to Harry Hermione has and does.

Luna?  Who knows?  Harry has an empathy for her, and she's there where
Ron is, but I saw no hint at anything happening between her and Harry
or Ron.  (I have a soft spot for eccentrics)

Jim Ferer




From kreneeb at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 12 17:33:41 2004
From: kreneeb at hotmail.com (hermionekitten9)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 17:33:41 -0000
Subject: SHIP:how about a random love interest? I think so ....
Message-ID: <c2ss9l+jfvq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92830

Samnanya said
>There is not much time left in the story to introduce new chars or
>expand minor chars into major ones. With a war going on, unresolved
>issues with Durmstrang, Beauxbatons, Wormtail, Bagman, Grawp, 
>Firenze,
>and a host of death eaters, giants, goblins, house elves, and
>Dursleys, and on and on, there is not enough TIME ..... {don't even
>think of a time turner}.
>The last chance for new significant characters was in OOP. There are
>only at most 1500-1800 or so pages to go and an awful lot of loose
>ends to tighten up.... In addition, a new char would not ring true 
>>[so
>to speak] if they ended up with Harry or helped save the day.
I>f you really are not a HH or HG shipper, all that is really left is
>HL. After OOP, HL can hardly be considered random as they do have
>much in common.

Kitten says
See... I Just don't think that time is up for new characters, and 
let me explain why. First of all, how boring would the books be 
without new characters? In OOP alone we met Tonk, Mundungus, 
Umbridge, Kingsley Shacklebolt, Luna, Ginny Weasley ;) not to 
mention countless of Hogwarts students through the DA. How boring 
would the book be without these people? 

In my opinion, JKR has set up the books for minor characters TOO 
expand into major ones. Have you forgotten about Dedalus Diggle, and 
Susan Bones, Both these characters in my opinion have been mention 
one to many times in cannon too stay out of the spotlight. If JKR 
didn't create anything new or branch minor characters into majors 
ones and just sit there and resolve old things that need to be 
resolved I'm thinking that the sixth and seventh books are going to 
be an extremely long read. I mean who cares about Grawp, or house 
elves?

I believe that in the next book we are going to see a lot more 
students develop into larger rolls, not necessarily major ones, but 
definitely more screen time. Something I think that not only would 
be interesting to read, but needs to happen, based on the House's 
united theme. Not to mention your list of unresolved issues with 
Durmstrang, Beauxbatons, Wormtail, Bagman, Grawp, Firenze, and a 
host of death eaters, giants, goblins, house elves, and the 
Dursleys. Wouldn't resolving these issues mean branching out
these minor plot points, and characters into major ones? I think 
that JKRs comment about Harry getting kissed in the upcoming books 
pretty much proves that Harry isn't going to be hammered down by 
everything that's going on as some people thinks he is.
  

And as for a LOVE INTEREST... take a look at Luna, she was in one 
book, and people immediately fell in love with her, that she is one 
of the major ships for Harry. You don't think JKR could do the same 
thing for Susan, Lavender, Hannah, and other girls that have been 
mention repeatedly in ALL the books? 

Harry has not shown interest in ANYONE! Trust me if he liked someone 
as more then a friend we all would know, the fact that he doesn't
is what make these shipping debates so much fun. So... Let's say
for example that in some alternate Harry Potter universe Harry 
starts to see Hermione as more then a friend. JKR would have to 
Develop that relationship, she would have to make Harry realize that 
Hermione is special and is the girl for him, in such a way that it 
won't seemed rushed or well...stupid. Something that would take 
about the same length of time as to have a new girl develop into 
something more.

Kitten
Who dosen's like Luna, Ginny, or Hermione as Harry's girl; and will 
continue to fight for the underdogs.





From ellyn337 at earthlink.net  Fri Mar 12 03:45:10 2004
From: ellyn337 at earthlink.net (mclellyn)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 03:45:10 -0000
Subject: Moody/Figg twins? was: Crookshanks
In-Reply-To: <c2g7nf+4mt5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2rbo6+e8fd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92831

Gadfly McLellyn writes:
Grizzled gray hair.  I've just seen another fleeting commonality 
between characters.  Seems like JKR likes to do this, drop these 
common traits in what seems mundane parts of the story that you go 
back and say why didn't I see it before?  In Dudley Demented chapter 
of OOTP p19 of the US version:

"Mrs. Figg, their batty old neighbor, came panting into sight.  Her 
grizzled gray hair was escaping from its hairnet"

Then two chapters later in The Advance Guard chapter on p47 it says:
"Mad-Eye Moody, who had long grizzled gray hair"

Allistar and Arebella - the batty ol' Moody twins.  Maybe that's why 
Mrs. Figg knows Dumbledore so well?  Would make her a very trusted 
member of the Order.  With a auror for a brother, it would explain 
why she knows so much about the wizard world.

Wotcha think?




From technomad at intergate.com  Fri Mar 12 08:17:03 2004
From: technomad at intergate.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 02:17:03 -0600
Subject: FILK: The Hogwarts High Inquisitor's Song
Message-ID: <000001c4085c$5eecb0c0$ad560043@intergate.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92833

I'm kind of in a Gilbert-and-Sullivan mood, so...

  ----------

The Hogwarts High Inquisitor's Song

ttto _Behold the Lord High Executioner,_ from _The Mikado,_ by Gilbert and Sullivan

by Eric Oppen


(Hogwarts, the Great Hall.  A flourish of trumpets.  Enter Dolores Umbridge, preceded by Pansy Parkinson and Millicent Bulstrode, dancing backwards before her and strewing her path with rose petals, carried on a litter by the other members of the Inquisitorial Squad)

Inquisitorial Squad (in four-part harmony):

All hail the Hogwarts High Inquisitor!
A bureaucrat of unlimited power!
She isn't just some random visitor,
Her influence increases every hour!
Defer! Defer! 
To the Hogwarts High Inquisitor!
Bow low!  Bow lo-o-w!
To the Hogwarts High,
To the Hogwarts High,
To the Hogwarts High Inquisitor!

Dolores:

I worked at the Ministry,
Helping out Cornelius Fudge,
That was just my cup of tea,
Got to be a Wizard Court judge.
Minister Fudge then asked me
To help him get rid of his grudge,
Here I am and soon you'll see
Potter's lies thrown into the sludge!
Classes you may take with me
Will prove to be quite a dull trudge,
But soon the naughty Three
Will find out that I will not budge!

Inquisitorial Squad (in four-part harmony):

Defer!  Defer!
To the Hogwarts High Inquisitor!
Bow low!  Bow lo-o-w!
To the Hogwarts High, to the Hogwarts High,
To the Hogwarts High Inquisitor!



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From annemehr at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 12 18:02:57 2004
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 18:02:57 -0000
Subject: Need Quote: Help with Sirius's Motorcyle - More
In-Reply-To: <c2rodd+90kh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2su0h+4lha@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92834

> Carol:
> Right. Britishisms or Briticisms, but not Americanisms. My point is
> that the American editor is unlikely to be responsible for the change
> to "Give Sirius his bike back" because it's not American English, and
> if it were the British editor's change, it wouldn't be in the American
> edition, too, so it must be JKR's own change.

Annemehr:
You've said this before, and I'm confused.  "I'll be takin' Sirius his
bike back" sounds like normal American to me; for instance, I might
tell one of my daughters to "give your sister her book back."  I'd
never say "give your sister's book back."  I really don't think the
form of "give Sirius his bike back" tells us anything about which side
of the Atlantic it came from.  On the other hand, "get this bike away"
definitely sounds British to me.

I'm from Pennsylvania, by the way; I wonder if we have a regional
difference?  Also, FWIW, Carol, my paperback's the same as yours.

I don't know, but I'll bet "I'll be takin' Sirius his bike back" is
what JKR wants it to say.  The two publishing companies never seem to
refer to each other but rather use what JKR gives them.

Annemehr






From shahara97 at aol.com  Fri Mar 12 16:43:15 2004
From: shahara97 at aol.com (shahara97 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 11:43:15 EST
Subject: Two way mirror of Sirius
Message-ID: <23.3bec2991.2d8342a3@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92835

MsSL wrote:
> Certainly, if Harry hadn't forgotton about this mirror, He'd be able to 
> check that Sirius is safe after his vision and Sirius needn't die
> at all.  Also, if it was never to be used why did JKR introduce this item in 
> the story at all???

I am thinking Harry will have a lot to think about during his (hopefully 
short) stay at the Dursleys this summer...and he turns 16; he most certainly will be much matured in the next book, hopefully more prepared to be less rash and 'think' more, and perhaps as realizing others have good opinions as well (i.e. Hermione, Snape, etc...) and need to work together.

I too read the book saying to myself 'the mirror, Harry, get the mirror!'
~shahara




From annemehr at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 12 18:18:14 2004
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 18:18:14 -0000
Subject: Apparating into the Ministry...
In-Reply-To: <c2rqff+c0d8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2sut6+u7g1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92836


> Elihu wrote: If apparation/Disapparation isn't possible to all
> locations in the MOM, then 
> the Dept of Mysteries would be among the places that you can't
> apparate to. However, 
> Dumbledore had to put the DEs in a room with an anti-apparation jinx.
> That means that, 
> if fact, you can disapparate from anywhere in the ministry.
<snip>

> Carol:
> I definitely agree that you can't apparate or disapparate into the DoM
> itslef. Bode, an "unspeakable" who works in the DoM, may well have
> apparated into the atrium (with a lot of other people), but he rides
> the lift with Harry and Mr. Weasley. But I'm pretty sure that you
> can't apparate or disapparate *anywhere* in the MoM except the atrium,
> which is where everyone seems to enter and leave the building--even LV
> and Dumbledore. If you can apparate inside the building, why have
> lifts on every floor? Even the memos take the lift. 

Annemehr:
I agree with Carol.  The fact that Dumbledore put an
anti-disapparition jinx on the DEs still makes sense.  Dumbledore was
just showing foresight, because obviously the DEs weren't going to
*stay* in the Death Chamber, they were going to be taken out of the
MoM and transported to Azkaban.  They'd need to be under the jinx so
they couldn't disapparate during the journey.  Dumbledore told Fudge
he'd put them under the jinx so that Fudge would know that necessary
step had been taken.

Annemehr
who likes to spell it "apparition" (GoF) rather than "apparation"
(OoP), maybe just because that way has a double meaning





From ilexrdh at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 12 17:55:50 2004
From: ilexrdh at yahoo.com (ilexrdh)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 17:55:50 -0000
Subject: Harry & The Thestrals
Message-ID: <c2stj6+skus@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92837


Of course, Harry was too young to comprehend his Mom's death, but at 
the end of book 4, when he uses the carriages to get to the Hogwarts 
Express station in Hogsmeade, he is still working his way (mentally) 
thru the grief process, i.e. he was still in shock/denial, but by the 
time he comes back in the fall, he has accepted Cedric's death, 
hence, he can see the horses pulling the carriages.  By the way, is 
that a great drawing of the thestrals in the beasts listing in the HP 
lexicon or what!!! 
Neville saw his uncle's ( maybe great uncle's) passing, so he can see 
the thestrals, too.
Holly





From carolynwhite2 at aol.com  Fri Mar 12 18:33:49 2004
From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 18:33:49 -0000
Subject: Dudley's Worst Memory
In-Reply-To: <92.584ebb3.2d8220a9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <c2svqd+6p0e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92838

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, alexpie at a... wrote:
> I always assumed it would have been the day Harry appeared on the 
Dursleys' 
> doorstep.
> Ba
> 
Carolyn:
Having just embarked on (another) re-read of the whole series, this 
quote struck me from PS/SS:

'Next morning at breakfast, everyone was rather quiet. Dudley was in 
shock. He'd screamed, whacked his father with his Smeltings stick, 
been sick on purpose, kicked his mother and thrown his tortoise 
through the greenhouse roof and he still didn't have his room back.'

and then slightly later on:
'They didn't stop to eat or drink all day. By nightfall Dudley was 
howling. He'd never had such a bad day in his life...'

Culminating in the iconic remark: 'Daddy's gone mad, hasn't he', 
which also made it to the movie.

I think Dudder's worst memories are from when he is 11, and he 
discovers for the very first time that his wishes will not always be 
obeyed by his parents. A much-delayed, but salutary moment for the 
unpleasant little monster.




From averyhaze at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 12 17:58:59 2004
From: averyhaze at hotmail.com (onnanokata)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 17:58:59 -0000
Subject: Tom Riddle's Birth (Re: JKR Chat  "The Crucial ...")
In-Reply-To: <c2q1o1+8doo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2stp3+8qnu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92839

Naama wrote: 
> If Harry received the gift of love from his mother, maybe Tom 
> received a gift of hate? 
[Snip]

Jen wrote: 
> I think a curse of hate (or whatever would be the opposite of Lily's love 
> sacrifice) doesn't have to negate the choice theory. 
>
> Harry could easily have turned into a different person despite the 
> circumstances of his birth. The ground was certainly fertile for him to
> become a spiteful, hateful person after so little nurturing and 
> support. That was one of the risks DD must have considered in leaving 
> Harry with the Dursleys. 
[Snip]
> OTOH, while I like the parallels Naama draws above I'm not certain 
> it would make the point about choices as well as other 
> possibilities. More effective would be if TR had a similar love 
> sacrifice at birth, then spiraled off into the direction of evil by 
> his own choices. Then LV and Harry would truly be in opposition. 

Jen,

(This is my first post here, so please let men know if I'm hard to 
follow, or violating the norms.)

I tend to agree with your assessment on this issue. The choice and 
sacrifice themes do not seem mutually exclusive to me either, but for 
slightly different reasons than the ones you mentioned.

JKR has said herself that the WW really is not that much different 
than the Muggle World, so if that is true, then Tom Riddle has some 
different challenges despite his similarities to Harry. Riddle is a 
good candidate for some deeply anti-social behaviors, and deeply held 
self-loathing. This does not make his choices acceptable, but there 
are some differences that stand out to me between his life 
circumstances and Harry's.

Both are orphans, but Harry at the very least had a year to form 
attachments to his parents, and then, despite their abusiveness, time 
to form attachments to the Dursley's. Tom Riddle does not seem to 
have any of that available to him.

They both lost their parents in tragic ways. Harry initially thought 
that his parents died in an accident, only to find out that they died 
to save him. Mr. Riddle abandoned Tom before he was born, and his 
mother died without family right after giving birth to him. It might 
seem a bit on the nitpicky-side to make those distinctions, but to me 
they seem quite a bit different in scheme of human emotion. 

It makes sense to me that if Lily's sacrifice marked Harry's soul 
with love, then the death and rejection of "Mrs. Riddle" could mark 
Tom's soul with anger. Lily made and active choce to love. Tom 
Riddle Sr. made and active choice to hate. Harry and Tom's choices, 
in my opinion, come into play from the time that each was able to 
understand what truly happened to their families, and how it shaped 
different parts of their lives their lives. 

Harry is coming up in a time where there is still discrimination, but 
many in the WW accept wizards and witches who are Muggle-born or half-
blood. But the WW history that we currently have suggests that 
perhaps times were different for Tom Riddle. In chapter 6 of OotP 
Sirius tells Harry that Araminta Meliflua, his mother's cousin, was 
trying to push a Muggle hunting bill through the MoM. This is an 
interesting indicator of the political times for Muggle-born and half-
blood wizards during Riddle's youth. 

It is surely awful to suggest that hunting people down is 
entertainment or reasonable but, it is a great indicator of the level 
of societal prejudice to be able to propose such a thing be legally 
sanctioned? Contrast that with the Muggle Protection Act that Author 
Weasley is trying puss through the MoM in the CoS, and we have some 
interesting issues to think about in terms of what choices each 
character makes. There are more juxtapositions going on than just 
Harry's heroism and Voldemort's villainy. Their lives start to look 
quite a bit different to me in the details. The details are 
essential, for me as a reader, to follow the evolution of their 
choices.

Just my perspective.

Good cheer to all,

Dharma




From kashelkar at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 12 12:11:51 2004
From: kashelkar at yahoo.com (kashelkar)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 12:11:51 -0000
Subject: what are the criteria for becoming a Death Eater??? and is harry really a half-blood?
Message-ID: <c2s9e7+10de5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92840

Hi,

It really seems weird that during the fight between the DA members 
and death eaters towards the end of OOP, the DEs don't demonstrate 
any kind of special (Dark) ability. Is just knowledge of unforgivable 
curses (apart from worshipping Voldy) enough criteria for becoming 
DE?? Bella tells Harry "....I've learned the dark arts from Dark Lord 
himself..." What are these dark arts? How come she doesn't use them 
while in combat with the DA members?? How come the knowledge levels 
of the most feared DEs are just the same as the 5th year students at Hogwarts (which doesn't preach dark arts.)???

On a different subject

Harry was born to a witch and a wizard (both from the magical community), so isn't he a pure-blood? I think to be a half-blood (like Voldy), one of the parents has to be non-magic person.

~kashelkar




From fever264 at Aol.com  Fri Mar 12 08:22:08 2004
From: fever264 at Aol.com (Frank)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 08:22:08 -0000
Subject: Minerva McGonagall & The SS Movie Possible Clue? NOT a  Coincidence
Message-ID: <c2rrvg+b3a9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92841

[ELF NOTE: Just a reminder: this post is fine, as comparing the movies to canon in an attempt to shed further light on canon is entirely appropriate for the main list, but we do ask everyone to remember when replying that your posts must keep the focus on canon. If you'd like to discuss the movies alone, please do so on the Movie list: groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Movie. 
-Manya Elf, for the Admin Team]


     Hi everyone!

   My apologies if this has already been mentioned, and if this also 
may seem trivial.

   I know the movie versions and the book versions are quite 
different. 
   
    However, J.K. DOES have quite a LARGE amount of input into the 
movies ,the content is run by her before being filmed.
  
I am fairly new to this group, but I find that more attention is paid 
to certain characters over other ones, the same goes for theories.

 Minerva McGonagall doesnt seem to get much credit as being a real 
key to the whole septology, I feel that she is viewed as a "B LIST" 
Character.

    Here is what I actually found while re-watching the Harry Potter 
& the S.S. American Version ( Not sure if there is even a DIFFERENT 
English Version of the movies?? Could someone let me know if so??)

 Anyways, if you throw in your DVD, and if your DVD Player has a 
timer function that usually begins automatically when the movie 
starts, well at the 100:41 position of the movie, you will reach the 
scene AFTER Harry is caught flying by McGonagall, and after him and 
ron walk up to Hermione where she tells harry he "Won't Mess up", 
because Flying/Quidditch "Is in his blood".

    The specific scene is where she leads them to the trophy room, if 
at exactly 100:41 you PAUSE/FREEZE the movie, and then ZOOM into the 
NAMES displayed on the GRYFFINDOR QUIDDITCH TROPHY where the names 
are written, Including "JAMES POTTER" as "Seeker", with the Year 
marked 1970, if you ZOOM in even closer and to the right, you will 
very visibly read:

"M.G. McGonagall" 1971 on the name plate to the right of James 
Potter. ( To the left of James is "R.J.H. KING 1969" )

Now, I only brought this up b/c of JK's role on the content of the 
movies, I think this might of been purposely done. But I could be 
very wrong.

Does ANYONE have any theories on this? I dont know off the top of my 
head the exact time lines as to when McGonagall went to school, but I 
do remember her in POA saying how she remembered James and Sirius 
together at school while she was teaching. 

I am going out on a limb here, but I do feel that this "insight" may 
have some clues hiding within.

** Think of it this way, when reading a Book we are limited by our 
own minds and creativity as to the structure of a scene (in the book) 
and the details within that scene. No writer ever puts in EVERY 
single detail as to the layout of every object in a room etc... We 
simply rely on our own personal interpretation of what we are reading 
and from there we imagine/paint our own personal mental image as to 
how a scene we are reading would look like.

The image we use in our own mind is made more accurate when we watch 
the HP movies b/c we relate how harry should look like to the actors 
in the movies? ( We all do it).

Depending on how you interpret this, one could go as far as call this 
a "Contamination" of the mind b/c we are being given by association 
an official, realistic/humanistic view of real life actors who play 
the "character parts" in the movie, which inevitably will "taint" our 
minds when we read the books b/c we will go through a scene with DD 
and remember Richard Harris.

 Here is the flaw with ALL of this. How we think, imagine and see the 
actors and events in the books in our own minds is incorrect. The 
ONLY TRUE interpretation/acting out of the scenes currently ONLY lies 
in the mind of Mrs. JK Rowling.

That is why I feel the movies are an advantage to the readers, b/c JK 
has input ( and lots of it) as to the plot of the movie (i.e. She 
walked up to Robbie Coltrane {HAGRID} during the filming of one of 
the movies and whispered something in his ear relating to an upcoming 
event {or past} of Hagrids life etc... which therefor better helped 
him play his role) {I understand she did this with many of the 
actors}.
 
The translation of the books to a movie helps us all re-live the 
scenes in our minds, using specific mental images we have already 
associated to the books b/c of the movies. 

J.K.'s input to the movies I feel paints a very DETAILED and CLUE 
SPECIFIC image of the story ( given that some large parts of the book 
have been left out), is very important to the Observation I made 
because it just might of been done on purpose.


I WELCOME ALL Emails, Comments Or (SUB)-Theories, or Disagreements to 
my post, feel free to pick at it in great detail or brainstorm a new 
theory, or if your really confused.

Frank (Fever264 at Aol.com)








From patchworkgirl82 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 12 17:58:53 2004
From: patchworkgirl82 at yahoo.com (patchworkgirl82)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 17:58:53 -0000
Subject: Ron to follow Voldemort?
Message-ID: <c2stot+kgue@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92842

Hi,

I'm new to the group, and this may be an idea that has already been 
explored, but I'm wondering if Ron might not be tempted to follow 
Voldemort for a little bit (causing problems for Hermione, who he's 
obviously going to get together with)

This is why I think so:

1) SOMEONE we know is going to go over to the other side, it just has 
to be.  Rowling seems to be trying to make Harry understand that the 
line between good and evil is not as clear as he would like to think, 
and this is the only real way to get harry to figure that out

2) I really doubt it's going to be Percy.  That would just be lame.

3) Ron's desire to get out of the shadow of his brothers/Harry make 
him a target for temptation (let's not forget what he saw in the 
mirror of Erised)

4) Ron still really fears Voldemort, which also makes him susceptible to his power.  In OotP, Hermione begins saying Voldemort's 
name, and Ron reacts fearfully every time.

5) None of the triad can die.  But something's gotta happen to them.  
they just cant walk around triumphing over evil in every book.

...maybe I'm being silly, but it's a thought....

p.s.  10 dollars says Neville's going to become a healer




From tipgardner at netscape.net  Fri Mar 12 18:00:12 2004
From: tipgardner at netscape.net (tipgardner)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 18:00:12 -0000
Subject: Will Hogwarts be Attacked?
In-Reply-To: <c2rgm3+ono4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2strc+i8e8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92843


> > Mandy:
> > Absolutely.  I believe it'll be attacked for certain.  Look at 
the clues already in place: The Sorting Hat said that a unification 
of the Houses must happen or the school will "...crumble from 
within."  Disaster if the school is  also being threatened from the 
outside.  Right now, just about the only thing, imo, that will bring 
Slytherin in line with the other 3 houses, is if Hogwarts and the 
live of the children themselves are threatened.  Of course the 
children of the Death Eaters will be on LV side, but not all 
Slytherins are DE offspring.   

Not saying I disagree, but that is a clue, not textual evidence.  
Crumbling from within is not being attacked from without.

> > The Chamber of Secrets is a dangerous weak spot for DD and his 
allies 
> > inside the school.  As is the forbidden Forest, a haven for Dark 
> > Creatures.  How can LV not use them both to his advantage?

Agreed.  It does seem reasonable that DD and staff would have done 
something with the Chamber after CoS.
 
> > Most of the action in the books so far has taken place while 
Harry is at Hogwarts, and I don't see the formula changing in the 
last 2  books.  JKR can't have Harry leaving school to fight in the 
war for  it would scatter all the principal characters.

It would split the principal characters, however, that is a classic 
plot device in fantasy and faery tale literature (LOTR, etc.).

Carol wrote:
> anticlimactic to have it in Book Six--unless Book Seven involves 
Harry in a heroic one-on-one struggle against LV, which I
> don't think could be sustained for a whole book

See above.

I feel that the story probably will have some sort of climatic battle 
scene because that has become the convention, but it hardly seems 
like LV's style.  When I read fan fiction that has large public 
battles or similar plot lines, it feels off to me because LV is 
sneaky and cunning and also because I think he plans to eventually 
become the leader of the wizarding world in his fantasy of success 
and thus needs to destroy his enemies and then be in a position to 
take over.  

Tip





From lizvega2 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 12 19:33:44 2004
From: lizvega2 at yahoo.com (lizvega2)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 19:33:44 -0000
Subject: Minerva McGonagall & The SS Movie Possible Clue? NOT a  Coincidence
In-Reply-To: <c2rrvg+b3a9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2t3ao+qdak@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92844

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Frank" <fever264 at A...> wrote:
> [ELF NOTE: Just a reminder: this post is fine, as comparing the 
movies to canon in an attempt to shed further light on canon is 
entirely appropriate for the main list, but we do ask everyone to 
remember when replying that your posts must keep the focus on canon. 
If you'd like to discuss the movies alone, please do so on the Movie 
list: groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Movie. 
> -Manya Elf, for the Admin Team]
> 
> 
>      Hi everyone!
> 
>    My apologies if this has already been mentioned, and if this 
also 
> may seem trivial.
> 
>    I know the movie versions and the book versions are quite 
> different. 
>    
>     However, J.K. DOES have quite a LARGE amount of input into the 
> movies ,the content is run by her before being filmed.
>   
> I am fairly new to this group, but I find that more attention is 
paid 
> to certain characters over other ones, the same goes for theories.
> 
>  Minerva McGonagall doesnt seem to get much credit as being a real 
> key to the whole septology, I feel that she is viewed as a "B 
LIST" 
> Character.
> 
>     Here is what I actually found while re-watching the Harry 
Potter 
> & the S.S. American Version ( Not sure if there is even a 
DIFFERENT 
> English Version of the movies?? Could someone let me know if so??)
> 
>  Anyways, if you throw in your DVD, and if your DVD Player has a 
> timer function that usually begins automatically when the movie 
> starts, well at the 100:41 position of the movie, you will reach 
the 
> scene AFTER Harry is caught flying by McGonagall, and after him 
and 
> ron walk up to Hermione where she tells harry he "Won't Mess up", 
> because Flying/Quidditch "Is in his blood".
> 
>     The specific scene is where she leads them to the trophy room, 
if 
> at exactly 100:41 you PAUSE/FREEZE the movie, and then ZOOM into 
the 
> NAMES displayed on the GRYFFINDOR QUIDDITCH TROPHY where the names 
> are written, Including "JAMES POTTER" as "Seeker", with the Year 
> marked 1970, if you ZOOM in even closer and to the right, you will 
> very visibly read:
> 
> "M.G. McGonagall" 1971 on the name plate to the right of James 
> Potter. ( To the left of James is "R.J.H. KING 1969" )
> 
> Now, I only brought this up b/c of JK's role on the content of the 
> movies, I think this might of been purposely done. But I could be 
> very wrong.
> 
> Does ANYONE have any theories on this? I dont know off the top of 
my 
> head the exact time lines as to when McGonagall went to school, 
but I 
> do remember her in POA saying how she remembered James and Sirius 
> together at school while she was teaching. 
> 
> LizVega:

I purposely left the note from the Elf, I didn't want the movies to 
be getting the attention. As for your question, it reminds me of the 
comments Jo has made regarding the teachers. In one interview, my 
apologies for not siting a source, but all of the interviews have 
kinda melted together now, someone asked Jo if any of the teachers 
were married, and she said that yes, but she couldn't give any info. 
because it would ruin a plot element. <Didn't she say yes, or is 
this just wishful thinking?> 

Regardless, when posed with the question of which teachers might've 
been, or are currently married, most HP fans lean towards Snape- 
always wanting to know more about our greasy friend- but I happen to 
agree with you on this, that Minerva doesn't get near as much 
attention as she should. My opinion of the shield in the Trophy Room 
changed after Jo said that James was indeed a chaser, not a seeker- 
hence, I completely forgot the other names listed on the shield, and 
chalked the whole thing up to movie contamination. However, as 
Minerva is 70-something years old, she couldn't have been on the 
team with James. But, perhaps one of her off-spring? (I smell a time 
turner theory forming in someone's head as they're reading that 
statement)! Also, why are the dates different, 1969,70,71? Are these 
the MVP's of the year? And, who is this R.J.H. King anyway? And, 
does this mean that none of the other marauders played Quidditch 
with James? R.J- Remus John? 

LizVega~ Counting down the minutes until Friday afternoon becomes 
Friday night!




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Fri Mar 12 19:39:19 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 19:39:19 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Harry and Hermione together per JKR chat?
In-Reply-To: <c2ss02+9ure@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2t3l7+9bq0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92845

Jim Ferer wrote:
<humongous snip of Jim's post>
> HINTS AT HARRY'S FEELINGS THAT HE MIGHT NOT EVEN BE AWARE OF
> 
> ** The Yule Ball Scene.  He notices Hermione, really notices her as 
> a girl, and hasn't forgotten it.  It can easily surface again, and I
> think it will.
> 
> ** He spontaneously blurts out "but I don't think you're ugly!" to
> Hermione.  I think we should notice that and take it for a hint at
> Harry's feelings.
> 
> ** Harry is integrating parts of Hermione into himself. He hears her
> voice, feels her presence.

Susan:
Jim, even though I tend pretty strongly to R/H & H/G, I did enjoy 
this post quite a bit.  My one quibble is with your statement that 
Harry "spontaneously" burst out with "But I don't think you're 
ugly!"  I *really, really* do not think we can read too much into 
that remark.  Remember the scene.  It's over the Cho debacle, and 
Hermione is trying to show Harry what he did wrong.  He should have 
told Cho, says Hermione, that he thinks Hermione is ugly.  To which 
Harry **replies,** "But I don't think you're ugly!"  

First, I Hermione likely isn't ugly at all, so Harry is simply 
stating a fact.

Second, a girl has just "called" herself ugly.  Wouldn't most people 
make the considerate remark and protest?  Even though Hermione 
doesn't believe it herself--or even think that Harry does--she's 
trying to TEACH him how to deal w/ a girl...and let's face it, Harry 
isn't getting it all.  I think this situation was part of his "I 
don't get girls" thing, and he focused on Hermione's "you should have 
told her you thought I was ugly" rather than on her **plan** of how a 
guy convinces a girl he doesn't like another girl.

Hoping that makes sense,
Siriusly Snapey Susan






From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Fri Mar 12 19:43:56 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 19:43:56 -0000
Subject: SHIP:how about a random love interest? I think so ....
In-Reply-To: <c2ss9l+jfvq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2t3ts+r131@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92846

Kitten wrote:
> And as for a LOVE INTEREST... take a look at Luna, she was in one 
> book, and people immediately fell in love with her.... 

> Kitten
> Who dosen's like Luna, Ginny, or Hermione as Harry's girl; and will 
> continue to fight for the underdogs.


Susan now:
Definitely not disagreeing with you that an underdog could be made 
into a fun pairing for Harry by JKR, but I do have to protest this 
remark about Luna.  I, for one, did *not* fall in love w/ Luna.  I 
*really* had a hard time stomaching her eccentricities & wackiness, 
frankly.  She grated on my nerves, and I'm just not keen on her, with 
or without Harry.

Siriusly Snapey Susan...who must be a bit too Hermione-like in this







From gbannister10 at aol.com  Fri Mar 12 19:46:23 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 19:46:23 -0000
Subject: Harry and Thestrals
In-Reply-To: <c2s6lb+90ii@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2t42f+6ik5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92847

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "earendil_fr" 
<earendil_fr at y...> wrote:

Earendil:
> Is anyone other than I intrigued by the fact that Harry can 
suddenly 
> see Thestrals in Order of the Phoenix?
> 

<snip>

Geoff:
There was a thread some while ago entitled "Thestrals and seeing 
death" which might help.

It began at message 80944.




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Fri Mar 12 19:57:01 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 19:57:01 -0000
Subject: Tom Riddle's Birth (Re: JKR Chat  "The Crucial ...")
In-Reply-To: <c2stp3+8qnu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2t4md+5dj4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92848

Dharma ["onnanokata" <averyhaze at h...>] wrote:
> They both lost their parents in tragic ways. Harry initially 
> thought that his parents died in an accident, only to find out that 
> they died to save him. Mr. Riddle abandoned Tom before he was born, 
> and his mother died without family right after giving birth to him. 
> It might seem a bit on the nitpicky-side to make those 
> distinctions, but to me they seem quite a bit different in scheme 
> of human emotion. 

Welcome, Dharma!

I don't think this is nitpicky *at all*.  If one ascribes any value 
to Erik Erikson's Eight Stages of Psychosocial Development [and most 
psych majors like me probably do], then the first stage--**upon which 
all others depend**--is Trust vs. Mistrust, in which an infant must 
form a loving, trusting relationship w/ a caregiver or develop a 
general outlook of mistrust.  Now, we don't know much about the 
treatment Tom received in his orphanage, but it seems to me at least 
somewhat likely that he was unable to develop such a loving, trusting 
relationship.  Your point that Harry at least had 15 months with his 
loving, caring parents *is* a big contrast in this way.

I'm pretty big into choice & free will, so of course I still think 
Tom/Voldy is responsible for many of the choices he's made in his 
life.  I think, however, that the foundation for *why* their general 
outlooks might be so very different could be traced to **some** 
degree to this issue.

Going out on a limb here a bit, aren't I??  :-)

Siriusly Snapey Susan






From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Fri Mar 12 20:10:15 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 20:10:15 -0000
Subject: Minerva McGonagall & The SS Movie Possible Clue? NOT a  Coincidence
In-Reply-To: <c2rrvg+b3a9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2t5f7+sk8a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92849

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Frank" <fever264 at A...> wrote:
> [ELF NOTE: Just a reminder: this post is fine, as comparing the movies to canon in an 
attempt to shed further light on canon is entirely appropriate for the main list, but we do 
ask everyone to remember when replying that your posts must keep the focus on canon. If 
you'd like to discuss the movies alone, please do so on the Movie list: groups.yahoo.com/
group/HPFGU-Movie. 
> -Manya Elf, for the Admin Team]
> 
> 
> "M.G. McGonagall" 1971 on the name plate to the right of James 
> Potter. ( To the left of James is "R.J.H. KING 1969" )
> 
> Now, I only brought this up b/c of JK's role on the content of the 
> movies, I think this might of been purposely done. But I could be 
> very wrong.
> 
> Does ANYONE have any theories on this? I dont know off the top of my 
> head the exact time lines as to when McGonagall went to school, but I 
> do remember her in POA saying how she remembered James and Sirius 
> together at school while she was teaching. 
> 

This is also listed in "The Harry Potter Lexicon" in the "Who's who" section.

It's  obviously not Minerva (dates are wrong) and it seems a bit of a stretch
for it to be a  sibling (she'd be about 50 at the time).

In small print they give their opinion that because it contradicts the JKR
statement that Minerva taught at the time James was at Hogwarts, it 
must be considered that this is not canon.

Unless this turns out to be somehow associated with another of her 
statements that some of the staff had been married but that the
details were confidential at the moment.

Minerva's love child? By Flitwick? I think we should be told.

Kneasy




From capehoneysuckle at earthlink.net  Fri Mar 12 20:13:25 2004
From: capehoneysuckle at earthlink.net (capehoneysuckle)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 20:13:25 -0000
Subject: Moody/Figg twins?
In-Reply-To: <c2rbo6+e8fd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2t5l5+a13r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92850

> Gadfly McLellyn writes:
> Grizzled gray hair.  I've just seen another fleeting commonality 
> between characters.  Seems like JKR likes to do this, drop these 
> common traits in what seems mundane parts of the story that you go 
> back and say why didn't I see it before?  In Dudley Demented chapter 
> of OOTP p19 of the US version:
> 
> "Mrs. Figg, their batty old neighbor, came panting into sight.  Her 
> grizzled gray hair was escaping from its hairnet"
> 
> Then two chapters later in The Advance Guard chapter on p47 it says:
> "Mad-Eye Moody, who had long grizzled gray hair"
> 
> Allistar and Arebella - the batty ol' Moody twins.  Maybe that's why 
> Mrs. Figg knows Dumbledore so well?  Would make her a very trusted 
> member of the Order.  With a auror for a brother, it would explain 
> why she knows so much about the wizard world.
> 
> Wotcha think?

Honey:
Since "grizzled" means "with gray hair", it is not too surprising that
any of the older characters might be described (somewhat redundantly)
with these adjectives, without any special meaning at all.




From snapesmate at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 12 21:58:39 2004
From: snapesmate at hotmail.com (snapesmate)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 21:58:39 -0000
Subject: Minerva McGonagall & The SS Movie Possible Clue? NOT a  Coincidence
In-Reply-To: <c2rrvg+b3a9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2tbqf+o2k8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92851

Minerva McGonagall & The SS Movie Possible Clue? NOT a  Coincidence
--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Frank" <fever264 at A...> wrote:
> [ELF NOTE: Just a reminder: this post is fine, as comparing the 
movies to canon in an attempt to shed further light on canon is 
entirely appropriate for the main list, but we do ask everyone to 
remember when replying that your posts must keep the focus on canon. 
If you'd like to discuss the movies alone, please do so on the Movie 
list: groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Movie. 
> -Manya Elf, for the Admin Team]
> 
> 
>      Hi everyone!
> 
>    My apologies if this has already been mentioned, and if this 
also 
> may seem trivial.
> 
>    I know the movie versions and the book versions are quite 
> different. 
>    
>     However, J.K. DOES have quite a LARGE amount of input into the 
> movies ,the content is run by her before being filmed.
>   
> I am fairly new to this group, but I find that more attention is 
paid 
> to certain characters over other ones, the same goes for theories.
> 
>  Minerva McGonagall doesnt seem to get much credit as being a real 
> key to the whole septology, I feel that she is viewed as a "B LIST" 
> Character.
> 
>     Here is what I actually found while re-watching the Harry 
Potter 
> & the S.S. American Version ( Not sure if there is even a DIFFERENT 
> English Version of the movies?? Could someone let me know if so??)
> 
>  Anyways, if you throw in your DVD, and if your DVD Player has a 
> timer function that usually begins automatically when the movie 
> starts, well at the 100:41 position of the movie, you will reach 
the 
> scene AFTER Harry is caught flying by McGonagall, and after him and 
> ron walk up to Hermione where she tells harry he "Won't Mess up", 
> because Flying/Quidditch "Is in his blood".
> 
>     The specific scene is where she leads them to the trophy room, 
if 
> at exactly 100:41 you PAUSE/FREEZE the movie, and then ZOOM into 
the 
> NAMES displayed on the GRYFFINDOR QUIDDITCH TROPHY where the names 
> are written, Including "JAMES POTTER" as "Seeker", with the Year 
> marked 1970, if you ZOOM in even closer and to the right, you will 
> very visibly read:
> 
> "M.G. McGonagall" 1971 on the name plate to the right of James 
> Potter. ( To the left of James is "R.J.H. KING 1969" )
> 
> Now, I only brought this up b/c of JK's role on the content of the 
> movies, I think this might of been purposely done. But I could be 
> very wrong.
> 
> Does ANYONE have any theories on this? I dont know off the top of 
my 
> head the exact time lines as to when McGonagall went to school, but 
I 
> do remember her in POA saying how she remembered James and Sirius 
> together at school while she was teaching. 
> 
> I am going out on a limb here, but I do feel that this "insight" 
may 
> have some clues hiding within.
> 
> ** Think of it this way, when reading a Book we are limited by our 
> own minds and creativity as to the structure of a scene (in the 
book) 
> and the details within that scene. No writer ever puts in EVERY 
> single detail as to the layout of every object in a room etc... We 
> simply rely on our own personal interpretation of what we are 
reading 
> and from there we imagine/paint our own personal mental image as to 
> how a scene we are reading would look like.
> 
> The image we use in our own mind is made more accurate when we 
watch 
> the HP movies b/c we relate how harry should look like to the 
actors 
> in the movies? ( We all do it).
> 
> Depending on how you interpret this, one could go as far as call 
this 
> a "Contamination" of the mind b/c we are being given by association 
> an official, realistic/humanistic view of real life actors who play 
> the "character parts" in the movie, which inevitably will "taint" 
our 
> minds when we read the books b/c we will go through a scene with DD 
> and remember Richard Harris.
> 
>  Here is the flaw with ALL of this. How we think, imagine and see 
the 
> actors and events in the books in our own minds is incorrect. The 
> ONLY TRUE interpretation/acting out of the scenes currently ONLY 
lies 
> in the mind of Mrs. JK Rowling.
> 
> That is why I feel the movies are an advantage to the readers, b/c 
JK 
> has input ( and lots of it) as to the plot of the movie (i.e. She 
> walked up to Robbie Coltrane {HAGRID} during the filming of one of 
> the movies and whispered something in his ear relating to an 
upcoming 
> event {or past} of Hagrids life etc... which therefor better helped 
> him play his role) {I understand she did this with many of the 
> actors}.
>  
> The translation of the books to a movie helps us all re-live the 
> scenes in our minds, using specific mental images we have already 
> associated to the books b/c of the movies. 
> 
> J.K.'s input to the movies I feel paints a very DETAILED and CLUE 
> SPECIFIC image of the story ( given that some large parts of the 
book 
> have been left out), is very important to the Observation I made 
> because it just might of been done on purpose.
> 
> 
> I WELCOME ALL Emails, Comments Or (SUB)-Theories, or Disagreements 
to 
> my post, feel free to pick at it in great detail or brainstorm a 
new 
> theory, or if your really confused.
> 
> Frank (Fever264 at A...)

JMHO, but I do think JKR's input resulted in visual clues that we 
don't get from the books.  I copied this original post and pasted it 
into a new message over in the HPFGU-Movie section since the movie is 
what I am replying about...

Lynnette, who thinks Snape IS a good guy, even if he is NOT a nice 
guy!




From jferer at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 12 22:04:11 2004
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 22:04:11 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Harry and Hermione together per JKR chat?
In-Reply-To: <c2t3l7+9bq0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2tc4r+slvl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92852

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman"
<susiequsie23 at s...> wrote:

> Susan:
> Jim, even though I tend pretty strongly to R/H & H/G, I did enjoy 
> this post quite a bit.  My one quibble is with your statement that 
> Harry "spontaneously" burst out with "But I don't think you're 
> ugly!"  

I *really, really* do not think we can read too much into 
> that remark.  

I don't think I do; I present it in context with other things; by
itself, it isn't much.

Susan:"Remember the scene.  It's over the Cho debacle, and 
> Hermione is trying to show Harry what he did wrong.  He should have 
> told Cho, says Hermione, that he thinks Hermione is ugly.  To which 
> Harry **replies,** "But I don't think you're ugly!"  
> 
> First, I Hermione likely isn't ugly at all, so Harry is simply 
> stating a fact.
> 
> Second, a girl has just "called" herself ugly.  Wouldn't most people 
> make the considerate remark and protest?

Yes, someone might, but I just re-read the scene and I still feel the
spontaneity of Harry's answer.  Prejudiced? Maybe.  And there's
something more there.  Cho is jealous of Hermione with respect to
Harry.  Why? I wonder if she senses their closeness.

Susan:"I think this situation was part of his "I  don't get girls"
thing, and he focused on Hermione's "you should have told her you
thought I was ugly" rather than on her **plan** of how a  guy
convinces a girl he doesn't like another girl."

That's not an unfair reading, IMO.

One other thing: Although I don't see either Ron or Hermione being
happy together, I have no problem with H/G at all.  She's a great kid.
 I love the way she integrates Fred and George while keeping a lid on
their wilder tendencies while staying feminine all at the same time. 
I have to come down on the H/H side because they really, really, click.

Jim Ferer




From jferer at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 12 22:17:28 2004
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 22:17:28 -0000
Subject: SHIP:how about a random love interest? I think so ....
In-Reply-To: <c2ss9l+jfvq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2tcto+fabh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92853

Hermionekitten:"> And as for a LOVE INTEREST... take a look at Luna,
she was in one book, and people immediately fell in love with her,
that she is one of the major ships for Harry. You don't think JKR
could do the same thing for Susan, Lavender, Hannah, and other girls
that have been mention repeatedly in ALL the books?"

Sure, JKR could do that, and who's to say she won't?  But that
scenario is impossible for us fans to write about because we know
nothing; there's nothing to grab on to for discussion.

Luna's an interesting character.  I, H/H as I am, don't think Luna
will be Harry's love interest just because I think Harry and Hermione
have been converging for years now.  I like Luna a lot (I have a soft
spot for eccentrics, anyway), and Harry feels an empathy with her.  I
hope they're always friends.

Luna and Ron might do well together; her quirky personaity might be
good for him.  I've never seen Ron and Hermione being happy together;
his "ordinary guy" qualities don't mix well with her intensity, IMO.

But as for strangers, there's no way to predict them or even talk
about them in a way that means anything, just because they'd just be
names.




From gbannister10 at aol.com  Fri Mar 12 22:47:49 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 22:47:49 -0000
Subject: Remus J. Lupin
In-Reply-To: <c2rccv+3dm1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2teml+tiog@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92854

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rrsryan" <rrsryan at y...> wrote:
> What is the connection between Lupin and James Potter? I am still 
of 
> the thought that James Lily and Remus were involved in a bit of 
nifty 
> transfiguration. Food for thought Remus always calls Harry Potter 
by 
> his first name.

Geoff:
Yes, but remember that in the POA chapter "The Boggart in the 
Wardrobe", he calls everyone by their first name........




From gbannister10 at aol.com  Fri Mar 12 23:09:21 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 23:09:21 -0000
Subject: Minerva McGonagall & The SS Movie Possible Clue? NOT a  Coincidence
In-Reply-To: <c2t3ao+qdak@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2tfv1+1v56@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92855

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lizvega2" <lizvega2 at y...> 
wrote:

lizvega:
> Also, why are the dates different, 1969,70,71? Are these 
> the MVP's of the year? And, who is this R.J.H. King anyway? And, 
> does this mean that none of the other marauders played Quidditch 
> with James? R.J- Remus John? 

Geoff:
It looks like a fairly standard awards shield which you will find in 
many UK schools. They would be for a specific sport or house - this 
one looks as if it may be for Gryffindor Quidditch and would have 
separate small shields attached around the edge indicating who won it 
or to whom it was awarded in a particular year. Presumably this one 
may be for Quidditch captains and particularly gifted players (I 
can't recall whether JP was captain or not....)




From constancevigilance at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 12 23:18:22 2004
From: constancevigilance at yahoo.com (Susan Miller)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 23:18:22 -0000
Subject: Minerva McGonagall & The SS Movie Possible Clue? NOT a  Coincidence
In-Reply-To: <c2rrvg+b3a9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2tgfu+10t0b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92856

--- Frank wrote:
> [ELF NOTE: Just a reminder: this post is fine, ... . 
> -Manya Elf, for the Admin Team]
 
>      Hi everyone!

Hi, Frank!

>     However, J.K. DOES have quite a LARGE amount of input into the 
> movies ,the content is run by her before being filmed.
>   

I think she doesn't have as much input as we wish she did. There are 
things that the movie got Just Plain Wrong. Example - she has the 
carriages pulled by horses instead of invisibly, as it plainly said 
in the early books. Now we know that that was important to the story, 
but the movies Got It Wrong and JKR didn't or couldn't correct it. 
And there, of course, there is the problem with Quirrell. <collective 
groan from the listees> For my theory on Redeemed!Quirrell and why he 
lives, here is the link: 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/87648

In any case, I think we can make no conclusions based on the trophies 
in the case. And in fact, the movie got that wrong, too.

~Constance Vigilance




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 12 23:46:55 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 23:46:55 -0000
Subject: The Dudley Theory
In-Reply-To: <c2qc3p+lvji@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2ti5f+nj4i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92857

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "armadillof" <armadillof at y...>
wrote:
> Honey wrote:
> > The episode in the alley
> > could be supportive of the "magical Dudley" theory.
> 
> I think it's much more likely Dudley is a squib.  Otherwise he would 
> have likely been able to get rid of the pig-tail himself by sheer 
> emotion....not to forget the ton-tongue toffee!
> 
> AF


Dudley can't be a Squib and neither can Petunia because a Squib is, by
JKR's own definition, the nonmagical child of magical parents.
Dudley's parents are Muggles and so were Petunia's (note all the
references to Lily as a Muggle-born or "mudblood" and to Harry as a
half-blood). Note also the references in every book to all three
Dursleys as Muggles.

Carol, who wishes she had time to quote all the canonical evidence
against any magical member of the Dursley family




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 12 23:57:10 2004
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 23:57:10 -0000
Subject: Harry and Thestrals
In-Reply-To: <c2t42f+6ik5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2tiom+rjfg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92858

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister"
<gbannister10 at a...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "earendil_fr" 
> <earendil_fr at y...> wrote:
> 
> Earendil:
> > Is anyone other than I intrigued by the fact that Harry can 
> suddenly 
> > see Thestrals in Order of the Phoenix?
> > 
> 
> <snip>
> 
> Geoff:
> There was a thread some while ago entitled "Thestrals and seeing 
> death" which might help.
> 
> It began at message 80944.

bboy_mn:

First point, to the original poster, it's not 'contact' with death; a
person has to have 'seen' death. If we assume Harry was in some type
of crib or cradle, the his field of vision would have been limited.

Next, JKR, per one of her interviews, knew she had a problem with
Harry seening the Thestrals, but she did not want to introduce them
right at the very end of GoF, and have to leave them unexplained. 

So, given that she gets to invent the world she creates and therefore
create all the rules, JKR decided that you couldn't see the Thestrals
until you had time to process the death you had seen. For some, this
may be very soon after the death, other's may take a longer time. In a
sense, and I'm speculating, you must go through a grieving process,
you must have time to spiritually and emotionally absorb the death you
have witnessed.

JKR gets to make the rule, and this was her solution which, as she
desired, allowed her to not introduce the Thestrals at the end of GoF.

Just passing it along.

bboy_mn







From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Sat Mar 13 00:03:30 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 00:03:30 -0000
Subject: Minerva McGonagall & The SS Movie Possible Clue? NOT a  Coincidence
In-Reply-To: <c2tgfu+10t0b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2tj4i+9umc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92859

Frank wrote:
> > However, J.K. DOES have quite a LARGE amount of input into the 
> > movies ,the content is run by her before being filmed.
  
Constance Vigilance wrote:
> I think she doesn't have as much input as we wish she did. There 
> are things that the movie got Just Plain Wrong. Example - she has 
> the carriages pulled by horses instead of invisibly, as it plainly 
> said in the early books. Now we know that that was important to 
> the story, but the movies Got It Wrong and JKR didn't or couldn't 
> correct it. And there, of course, there is the problem with 
> Quirrell. <collective groan from the listees> For my theory on 
> Redeemed!Quirrell and why he lives, here is the link: 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/87648
 
Siriusly Snapey Susan:
Not to mention my personal pet peeve re: the movies & Quirrell:  
that in the CoS movie Quirrell had his turban on *and* wouldn't 
shake hands w/ Harry at their first meeting in Diagon Alley.  He 
wasn't QuirrelMort yet!

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 13 00:06:42 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 00:06:42 -0000
Subject: What would you think if.....
In-Reply-To: <c2qh4s+go80@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2tjai+db4o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92860

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rgbmcl" <rgbmcl at h...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" 
> <justcarol67 at y...> wrote:
> (I emphatically don't want him
> > to use Avada Kedavra or any other Unforgiveable Curse. I do want him
> > to use his wits and his courage and to survive.)
> 
> I disagree.  I think having Harry use the avada kedavra curse to kill 
> LV may well be the only way JKR can give due gravity to the fact that 
> Harry must commit murder.  Then, even if he lives, he has to live 
> with another 'scar' -- that the same curse that wrecked his life in 
> the first place is the one that set it right again.  I'll be 
> disappointed if the whole series just ends in a 'happily ever 
> after'.  What LV did can't be undone; you can't just magically erase 
> it all.  I think in the end, it would make Harry a far more complex 
> hero.


The suggestion that Harry must commit murder or be murdered is Harry's
own interpretation of the prophecy, and time and again, Harry has been
wrong in his interpretations and predictions. I think he's wrong again
this time. As for the Unforgiveable Curses, they're unforgiveable for
a reason--they contaminate the soul (and the WW does believe in souls
or the Dementors would be powerless). (I think Tom Riddle placed
himself beyond redemption when he used them on his father and
grandparents.) If it's absolutely necessary to kill, it can be done
without using unforgiveable curses or other Dark methods such as
poison or even more Muggle-like methods. Stabbing LV with Godric
Gryffindor's sword would still be murder, just as it would have been
murder for Sirius to stab Scabbers/Peter with a twelve-inch knife.
Notice that Harry saves Peter (later) not because he doesn't think
Peter deserves to die but because he doesn't want Sirius and Lupin to
commit murder. I don't think JKR wants Harry to commit murder, either.
There must be some better way, some more noble way, that would enable
him to rid the world of evil's representative without resorting to
evil himself. If he absolutely must kill LV in self-defence, I'll
accept that reluctantly, but not using an unforgiveable curse. (In any
case, LV is virtually immortal now, and I don't think an AK would kill
him.) 

Please, JKR. No murdered hero. No murdering but somehow still noble
hero. Please find a better, more satisfactory, more original way to
get rid of Voldemort.

Carol




From tim at marvinhold.com  Sat Mar 13 00:17:46 2004
From: tim at marvinhold.com (Tim)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 00:17:46 -0000
Subject: Something Small
In-Reply-To: <c2jfmb+unc5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2tjva+1hko@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92861

 "jenni_stern" <jennistern at a...> wrote:
> <idrinkjameson at h...> wrote:
snip
> >      JKR stated that something very small would be a big part of
book 
> > six. 
 snip
> "jenni_stern" <jennistern at a...> wrote:
 
> I'm of the assumption that the "small" thing mentioned, that will 
> play a role in book 6, is the Hand of Glory. 
snip 
> Well, the scene was in the book and the movie.  It could have been 
> cut out of the movie, but it wasn't.  
snip
> There was a little too much conversation about the Hand 
> for it to be a mere background prop.  
Snip
> Jenni

Tim now:
I was struck by 2 things:
1) A light that shines only for the bearer, is perfect with an
invisiblity cloak
2) in the COS movie one scene shows Harry encloaked with only hand
and lantern (very) visible. 

Tim




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 13 00:20:20 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 00:20:20 -0000
Subject: Snape in the graveyard
In-Reply-To: <c2qest+15ve@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2tk44+p68p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92862

weirdsister06
> There are questions about Snape and the graveyard, to be sure.  He 
> must have had an excellent cover story for Voldemort since he didn't 
> show up when the mark first burned. <snip>


All Snape had to do was to explain to Lucius Malfoy that he couldn't
show up at the graveyard because he was at the Tri-Wizard tournament
right under Dumbledore's nose AND you can't apparate from Hogwarts.
(I've already given several detailed explanations as to why he
couldn't have gone there even if he wanted to, but these two facts
should suffice as the key reasons.) Once he had told Malfoy why he
couldn't be there, Malfoy could pass on the information to LV (who
might still suspect Snape of being unfaithful but could probably be
persuaded that he was a useful contact who should be kept alive for
the time being).

Since JKR herself has definitely stated that we can figure out who
"the one I believe has left us forever" is and she seems also to have
explicitly said at a Vancouver convention that the person is Snape, I
really don't see why we're still arguing this point.

Carol




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 13 00:51:02 2004
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 00:51:02 -0000
Subject: two way mirror of sirius
In-Reply-To: <c2sab0+kh94@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2tltm+o47s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92863

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kashelkar" <kashelkar at y...> wrote:
> Kashelkar writes:
> 
> At the end of Christmas vacations, Sirius hands Harry a badly 
> wrapped package.  It contains a two-way mirror, Sirius having the 
> other one. So if Harry talked into it, Sirius would be able to see 
> & listen him  and vice versa.  How come Sirius never uses it 
> himself?? 
> ...edited... 
> Also, if it was never to be used why did JKR introduce this 
> item in the story at all???

bboy_mn:

Last question first, JKR frequently introduces concepts (or objects)
in one book, that aren't fully utilized until a later book. 

Example: Sirius gave Harry a knife the would unlock any lock and untie
any knot. Harry doesn't remember it until he is at the bottom of the
lake; seemingly a lost opportunity; yet, he made great use of it in
the most recent book.

Another example, the pointless use of Polyjuice in CoS, when Harry and
Ron sneak into Slytherin Common Room to talk with Draco. But, it's
pretty much a bust, they really don't find out much useful information
from Draco, and certainly don't find out what they were hoping to
find. So, in another smaller way, we have a pointless plot item.

But suddenly at the end of GoF Polyjuice becomes very siginficant when
we find out that Moody is really Crouch Jr in disquise. 

Conclusion, that mirror absolutely will appear in the story again.

Next, let's look at when Sirius gave Harry the mirror. Everyone was
very hurried that morning. There wasn't really much time for Sirius
and Harry to discuss the mirror and it's use. Fearing that Sirius's
ever increasingly depressed state of mind might lead him to do
something dangerous, Harry swore to himself that he would never use
Sirius's gift. He would not allow himself to be the person who drew
Sirius into the open and got him captured or killed. So, that is a
huge mindset against using the mirror right there.

Also, Harry doesn't know that the gift is a mirror. All he knows is
what Sirius said, "A way of letting me (Sirius) know if Snape's giving
you a hard time." That statement is pretty vague and I think JKR did
that intentionally. If Sirius had had time to explain to Harry exactly
what the gift was, then Harry would have understood that it was safe
to use. But Harry at the moment is extremely worrried about Sirius,
and vows not to do anything that might encourage him to do something
dangerous.

As far as the conversation in the fire, between Umbridge's office and
Grimmauld Place, it starts with Lupin and Sirius in a panic because
they assume something serious must be wrong for Harry to contact them
by Floo. Once the conversation starts they are all distracted by good
and bad memories, and good and bad feelings regarding the event that
Harry saw in the Pensieve. Before the can get into an extended
conversation, they are interupted and the conversation is cut short;
no opportunity to mention the mirror.

Final question, why didn't Sirius use the mirror? Maybe he did, but
the mirror is in the bottom of Harry's trunk, and Sirius would
therefore have to yell extremely loud for anyone to hear him. If he
did that, the circumstance would be compounded by the chance that
someone other than Harry would hear Sirius shouting. A bit awkward if
Seamus heard the shouts and looked in the mirror. So, while Sirius may
have tried it, he would have had to do so cautiously.

Just a few thoughts.

bboy_mn





From christophernuttall at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 13 00:54:06 2004
From: christophernuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 00:54:06 -0000
Subject: Is Vernon so Bad?
Message-ID: <Law11-OE31lvepUHl0w0002464c@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92864

Something that has been debated often on this group is the 'dreadfulness' of Vernon Dursley, who is one of Harry's 'carers' after his parents died.  While I quite agree that he is a horrible man, I must note that all we know of him if from Harry's POV.  There are a few facts in his favour:

 

-Vernon provides an excellent and above-average standard of living for his family and even provides Harry with enough food to live.  That is a better achievement than most families do in this day and age.

-Vernon is a caring parent who only wants the best for his son.  Now, to some extent Dudley has been spoiled, but in OOP, he has improved himself enormously.  Vernon was right when he said that 'Smeltings' would be the making of him, although this was partly against the wishes of his mother, who insisted that he was only 'big-boned'.  

-Vernon is concerned enough about his family that he is willing to throw Harry out on the street (which would offer the chance of punishment, whether Muggle child protection services, or Dumbledore), in order that Voldemort might look for him elsewhere and ignore the merely Muggle Dursleys'.  He must know (from Lily and James' deaths if nothing else) that the wizarding world can kill.

-Vernon clearly loves his wife, enough to comply with her request to keep Harry even after the Dementor attack.

 

Yes, Vernon treats Harry in a dreadful manner, but is that not understandable?  Harry represents a clear and present danger to his family - like standing next to an unexploded bomb - both by attracting attention from Voldemort and by acts of underage, uncontrolled, magic.  Further, Harry is not directly related to Vernon, stronger men than he would be unhappy about providing for such a child.  Its not 'right', but it is understandable.  

 

So, is Vernon so bad?

 

Chris


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From thephoenixrisingteam at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 12 19:59:29 2004
From: thephoenixrisingteam at yahoo.com (thephoenixrisingteam)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 19:59:29 -0000
Subject: Significant Lily?
In-Reply-To: <c2smld+mcb7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2t4r1+lur4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92865

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" <stevejjen at e...> 
wrote:

> In a thread this sunmmer, Richelle noted that in the Pensieve scene 
> we find out Lily's eyes are almond-shaped. Since we already know 
her 
> eyes are important, this was some additional information. The only 
> other character that has almond-shaped eyes is the sphinx in GOF. 
> Coincidence, red herring? I don't think so, because the BIG thing 
> we're going to find out about in Book 7 is the Harry/Lily eye 
> connection, so the shape is another clue. 
> 
> It just seems like the significance of the eyes has to be a power 
> Lily and Harry possess that is beyond the normal witch/wizard's 
> powers. 
> 
> Here's the thread if anyone is interested:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/75287
> 
> Jen Reese

Mlle: This is an out-of-book example, but it seemed to me food for 
thought anyway. I read this and immediately thought of Harry Potter. 
This is a passage from the Neverending Story, by Michael Ende:

"[Engywook says]...the Great Riddle gate. And the two sphinxes. That 
gate is always open, obviously. There's nothing to close. But even 
so, no one can get through unless the sphinxes close their eyes. And 
do you know why? The gaze of a sphinx is different from the gaze of 
any other creature. You and I and everybody else, our eyes take 
something in. We see the world. The sphinx sees nothing. In a sense, 
she is blind.  But her eyes send something out. And what do her eyes 
send out? All the riddles of the universe. That's why these sphinxes 
are always looking at each other. Because only another sphinx can 
stand a sphinx's gaze..." - Neverending Story - Michael Ende pg 81 
Penguin edition. 

Now, my question is, is there a common mythological story that 
relates sphinxes with significant eyes?

As a sidenote, another interesting thing about sphinxes is that they 
tell RIDDLEs...and we've already got a major character with that 
name..... hmmmmm...... I don't know what it means, but it certainly 
is interesting....





From oceangirl23 at comcast.net  Fri Mar 12 22:18:58 2004
From: oceangirl23 at comcast.net (oceangirl23 at comcast.net)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 22:18:58 +0000
Subject: Intro and Re: [HPforGrownups] Snape&Karkaroff... and a third party?
Message-ID: <031220042218.26676.b48@comcast.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 92866

Hello all, my name is amy and I recently joined the list.  It's great to see 
that there are people who think about the same things as I do.  One of the 
topics you are on now, has always interested me.  At the graveyard, who is LV 
referring to when he's going around the circle of DE's and mentions those that 
are not here.  

--- nkittyhawk97 <nkittyhawk97 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > In the quote on page 651 of the US GoF containing,
> > "One, too 
> > cowardly to return" and "One who I believe has left
> > me forever" has 
> > never, in my eyes, had any room LEFT for
> > speculation.
I quite personally always thought that the one who left him forever was 
Karkaroff.  I always thought that Snape was one of the ones he mentioned 
missing, but cannot figure out which one, or if he was there.  

xmezumiiru at yahoo.com wrote:
> Voldemort refrained from mentioning Snape in order to
> keep his spy safe. He would not know that Snape is
> Dumbledore's spy, as only Karakoff knew Snape was the

> spy and he did not tell the Death Eaters or Voldemort,
> nor that he would reveal himself later. 

Snape, as we find out the OotP is exceptional at Legimancy, therefore it is very 
feasible for Voldemort to not know that he is a spy.  

xmezumiiru at yahoo.com wrote:
> why else would the portkey have a return
> setting if not for someone to return?


The question I do have is about the portkey.  We see in GoF that when people 
arrive at the Quidditch World Cup that the portkeys are tossed aside and then 
used again for the return trip at the end, but have to be re-charmed.  Who then 
was the person that made the portkey two way.  Was this done before, or during 
the Graveyard?  Was Snape may be actually at the Graveyard, but just not 
mentioned, and during the whole wand duel snuck over to the portkey.  This 
leaves things very open.  I'm very intrigued to hear what other people think.
Thoughtfully,
Amy





From angelgava at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 12 22:24:01 2004
From: angelgava at hotmail.com (angygarcia)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 22:24:01 -0000
Subject: Ginny Pet
Message-ID: <c2tda1+1h7i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92867

I've read all 5 books in it's Spanish version, (I live in Mexico), 
and now that I'm re-reading OoP, I realized about something. ?Does 
Ginny Weasly have a pet? Because she's always taking care of 
Crockshanks. ?Is it needed for every student to bring their own pet 
to Hogwarts?

-Angie Garcia





From alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Mar 13 01:17:58 2004
From: alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk (alshainofthenorth)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 01:17:58 -0000
Subject: LV's Irrational Behavior (was: Re: LV as Blofeld/Dr Evil?)
In-Reply-To: <c2snq3+vpfo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2tng6+mqb0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92868

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" <jferer at y...> wrote:
> > Geoff:
> > My mind moved into the real world and I thought of Hitler. He was 
> > often an excellent strategist but, on occasions (especially later 
in 
> > the Second World War), took decisions (often in the face of other 
> > advice) which were absolutely crazy.
> 
> That's the analogy that occurs to me, too.  Voldemort's career is
> notable for some of the blunders he committed, Hitlerian ones born 
of
> megalomania.  I really wonder that followers like Lucius don't start
> chafing at following a guy who leads them from disaster to disaster,
> particularly if I'm right in believing Lucius, prejudiced though he
> is, never forgets Number One.
> 
> Voldemort is psychosis driven, IMO, a true sociopath, which is 
another
> point of commonality to Hitler.

Alshain, a bit late as usual:
If I can inject a bit of story-external meta-discussion, irrational 
behaviour is a required characteristic if you want to file an 
application for Evil Overlordship, that's how they are defeated -- 
villains are no good without an Achilles' Heel (tm). I'm quite sure 
that it's archetypal. Satan, the original villain in Western 
mythology, was defeated through his arrogance of starting a 
rebellion, what if he'd quietly worked at destabilising the heavenly 
administration instead?

If you haven't yet checked out the list of the things not to do when 
you try to take over the world, it's at www.eviloverlord.com and a 
riot.

Alshain




From enigma_only at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 13 01:22:18 2004
From: enigma_only at hotmail.com (fiondavhar)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 01:22:18 -0000
Subject: Tom Riddles School House
Message-ID: <c2tnoa+103du@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92869

Hello, new member here, known as Bonny. 

This might have already been discussed in the past, but it was not 
mentioned in any of the faq's, so I thought I'd put it forward.

Nowhere, in any of the books, is it stated that Tom Riddle, a.k.a 
Lord Voldemort, was in Slytherin house. Logically, we all assume that 
he was, being Slytherin's Heir, but wouldn't it be quite the JKR 
bombshell if he wern't?

There are various things that make his membership of Slytherin house 
a little dubious. For starters, there is the obvious question of his 
being a half-blood. This is quite obviously against Slytherin's 
creed, and would make it more difficult for him to be sorted there. 
Of course, sharing Slytherins blood and gift of parseltounge COULD 
phase that out, but was Slytherin the sort to make such allowances? 
Didn't he cease communication with his best friend, Gryffindor, over 
a dispute over blood and who was worthy? Wouldn't this intolerance 
extend to his own heir? 

Also, the rejection from the house of his own ancestor would 
certainly help fuel Riddles hatred of his father (the cause for his 
dual rejection)and muggles, and inspire him to work hard to become 
worthy of Slytherin. It just doesn't seem to me to be set in stone 
that Voldy was in Slytherin house just because he was Slytherin's 
heir. The rejection seems just as plausible, and would definitley add 
to the plot! 

Any thoughts, or down-right disprovals? I will be happy to hear any 
response!

     Bonny





From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Sat Mar 13 02:19:21 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 02:19:21 -0000
Subject: Snape and the MOM  (Was: Snape the coward or the one left forever?
In-Reply-To: <c2ro8l+10uph@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2tr39+inp8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92870

> > Carol wrote:
> <snip>
> > The only "evidence" I know of is that Wormtail told LV that 
Sirius 
> was
> > an animagus and Malfoy told Snape that he saw Sirius in dog form 
at
> > Platform 9 3/4. That doesn't necessarily indicate that LV and 
Malfoy
> > know that Snape is in the Order. And I don't think Kreacher could 
> have
> > told Narcissa because he was under orders not to reveal the 
Order's
> > secrets, which would certainly include its membership.
> > 
> > Any thoughts?
> > 
> > Carol
> 
Snapesmate asked:
> Is there actually canon stating Snape is still a DE?  
snip

Sue here:
I'm looking for clarification.  From the way I read the books, there 
is no way for Snape to *not* be a DE.  If we believe Sirius and 
Voldemort himself, a DE has two options: the Dark Lord forever or 
death.  The only way Snape could free himself is to have Voldemort  
and all of his loyal supporters dead.  As DD said they are all just 
as dangerous as he is.

As far as Voldemort's knowledge of Snape's participation in the Order 
there are really only two options here as well.  Voldemort does not 
know (because as Carol said, there isn't anyone who would know except 
DD) and Snape is loyal to the Order or Voldemort knows Snape is in 
the Order and he is betraying them.

That's my thoughts anyway.
Sue




From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 13 02:29:57 2004
From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (drjuliehoward)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 02:29:57 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore's Nitwit
Message-ID: <c2trn5+chb7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92871

I tried searching the archives but coule not find anything on this.  
It is from the first book, so something must have been posted about 
it.  On US hardback 123, Dumbledore's few words were "Nitwit!  
Blubber!  Oddment!  Tweak!  Thank you!"
Question 1: What in the world does it mean?
Question 2: Are they the same in the UK version?

Julie




From ellyn337 at earthlink.net  Sat Mar 13 02:10:25 2004
From: ellyn337 at earthlink.net (mclellyn)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 02:10:25 -0000
Subject: What would you think if.....
In-Reply-To: <c2tjai+db4o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2tqih+te83@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92872

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" 
<justcarol67 at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rgbmcl" <rgbmcl at h...> wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" 
> > <justcarol67 at y...> wrote:
> > (I emphatically don't want him
> > > to use Avada Kedavra or any other Unforgiveable Curse. I do want him
> > > to use his wits and his courage and to survive.)

rgbmcl:
> > I disagree.  I think having Harry use the avada kedavra curse to kill 
> > LV may well be the only way JKR can give due gravity to the fact that 
> > Harry must commit murder.  Then, even if he lives, he has to live 
> > with another 'scar' -- that the same curse that wrecked his life in 
> > the first place is the one that set it right again.  I'll be 
> > disappointed if the whole series just ends in a 'happily ever 
> > after'.  What LV did can't be undone; you can't just magically erase 
> > it all.  I think in the end, it would make Harry a far more complex 
> > hero.

Carol:
> The suggestion that Harry must commit murder or be murdered is Harry's
> own interpretation of the prophecy, and time and again, Harry has been
> wrong in his interpretations and predictions. I think he's wrong again
> this time. As for the Unforgiveable Curses, they're unforgiveable for
> a reason--they contaminate the soul (and the WW does believe in souls
> or the Dementors would be powerless). <major snip>


Gadfly McLellyn here:
Could it be the Dementors who get Voldie?  I can't remember which 
book it was but Dumbledore says that there are worst things than 
death.  How terrible would it be to be immortal but without your 
soul?  An immortal vegtable, if you will. And the Dementors are 
uncontrollable, Dumbledore says in Prisoner of Azkaban that it is not 
their nature to understand pleading.  Now that Voldie has a bit more 
human blood -Harry's- and he is starting to be sentimental (Voldie's 
own words in the graveyard p646 US paperback GOF)he will have 
emotions the Dementors can feed on!

Just trying to put 2 and 2 together  - Gadfly McLellyn






From mtluinmist at yahoo.com.au  Sat Mar 13 02:22:44 2004
From: mtluinmist at yahoo.com.au (mtluinmist)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 02:22:44 -0000
Subject: Need Quote: Help with Sirius's Motorcyle - More
In-Reply-To: <c2sde1+9ll0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2tr9k+4ok6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92873

> Neri:
> From the data we have so far, it appears that pre-2000 UK editions 
> have "get this bike away" and post-2000 UK editions have "I'll be 
> takin' Sirius his bike back", while all US editions (even pre-2000) 
> have "I'll be takin' Sirius his bike back ". 

I bought all five of the books in Berlin last July.  As far as I can 
tell they're all UK books.  My PS book has Bloomsbury on the back 
cover and the price of ?5.99.  It says "I'd best get this bike 
away".  On the front pages it says "This edition first published in 
2000".  On the previous page is lists the titles available in the 
Harry Potter series, and it includes the Goblet of Fire.  As GoF was 
first published in 2000, I'd assume my PS must be a 2001 edition at 
the earliest or GoF wouldn't be listed.  Actually, I've always 
assumed all five of my books to be 2003 editions as I bought them 
all together in July 2003.

Stuka 





From a_b_desert_king at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 13 03:04:44 2004
From: a_b_desert_king at hotmail.com (a_b_desert_king)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 03:04:44 -0000
Subject: Dudley's development
In-Reply-To: <c2l582+8igo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2ttoc+ovgu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92874

Mandy:
> Walking occurs between 12-15 months.  
> Having the ability to kick at a target and balance while kicking 
> would be extremely rare in a 16 month old.  
> 
> Hum, a magical Dudley surfaces again.


Not to be a wet blanket, but my son (who turns 5 tomorrow) was 
walking by 9 months and I had to physically drag him away from 
things like ladders by the age of 16 months.  So it is possible... 
not common, but possible.

Heather - who really doesn't want Dudley to be magical - but then 
has anyone ever considered that maybe he's named "Dud"ley for a 
reason?  :o





From ellyn337 at earthlink.net  Sat Mar 13 03:07:14 2004
From: ellyn337 at earthlink.net (mclellyn)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 03:07:14 -0000
Subject: Moody/Figg twins?
In-Reply-To: <c2t5l5+a13r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2ttt2+gnr3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92875

> > Gadfly McLellyn writes:
> > Grizzled gray hair.  I've just seen another fleeting commonality 
> > between characters.  Seems like JKR likes to do this, drop these 
> > common traits in what seems mundane parts of the story that you go 
> > back and say why didn't I see it before?  In Dudley Demented chapter 
> > of OOTP p19 of the US version:
> > 
> > "Mrs. Figg, their batty old neighbor, came panting into sight.  Her 
> > grizzled gray hair was escaping from its hairnet"
> > 
> > Then two chapters later in The Advance Guard chapter on p47 it says:
> > "Mad-Eye Moody, who had long grizzled gray hair"
> > 
> > Alistor and Arabella - the batty ol' Moody twins.  

> 
> Honey:
> Since "grizzled" means "with gray hair", it is not too surprising that
> any of the older characters might be described (somewhat redundantly)
> with these adjectives, without any special meaning at all.

Gadfly again:
Seems strange for JKR to describe hair as "with gray hair" gray 
hair!  After I made this post I wondered if JKR repeatedly called 
Umbrage "toad-like" on purpose to get our brains used to seeing a 
description over and over hoping her reader would not notice when she 
started describing two different characters in the same way.  Then 
she could slyly make a connection between two characters like 
Mundungus Fletcher/Crookshanks and Arabella Figg/Alistor Moody.






From a_b_desert_king at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 13 02:27:12 2004
From: a_b_desert_king at hotmail.com (a_b_desert_king)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 02:27:12 -0000
Subject: Harry's Future and Career
In-Reply-To: <c2kpjn+sjhb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2tri0+akj5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92876

Ali:
> I think that JKR likes to keep us guessing. In previous chats she 
> has made comments like "what makes you think Harry will survive?" 
> (my paraphrase). This time, she asked a similar question about Ron. 
> This has two effects, firstly it keeps us all on our toes, but 
> secondly, it does open people's minds to the possibility of our 
> favourite characters dying.
> 
> I would be very upset if Harry were to die. I think that JKR would 
> be, but I don't think that would stop her killing him off. I 
> personally don't think that all the trio will survive. For some 
> reason, I can't imagine Hermione being the one to die, so my choice 
> will be between Harry and Ron. I suppose at this stage, my fear of 
> Harry dying makes me think it will be him, but that's a somewhat 
> pessimistic view.


Hi Ali,

I have been lurking here for a little while, and am trying to read 
through all the back posts - while watching PS/SS movie at the same 
time  :)  While reading the topic of "which hero will die?" I 
happened to be watching the spectacular chess game and it suddenly 
hit me that Ron sacrifices himself in the chess game in order to 
help Harry and Hermione defeat QuirrelMort.  I suggest that Ron will 
sacrifice himself in order to allow Harry to defeat LV.

Just my 2 cents worth....  :)

Heather 






From jferer at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 13 03:13:06 2004
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 03:13:06 -0000
Subject: What would you think if.....
In-Reply-To: <c2tjai+db4o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2tu82+9qdl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92877

Carol:"The suggestion that Harry must commit murder or be murdered is
Harry's own interpretation of the prophecy, and time and again, Harry
has been wrong in his interpretations and predictions. I think he's
wrong again this time. As for the Unforgiveable Curses, they're
unforgiveable for a reason--they contaminate the soul."

Murder is "The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially
with premeditated malice."

Killing Voldemort cannot be murder no matter how Harry does it.  If
Harry could kill Voldemort with an AK, it would be the only right
thing to do to save lives.  

But I agree that's not what will happen.  Voldemort hasn't been
naturally alive in a long time. If the magic left him, so would his
existence; that, and the link to Harry Potter, will be his downfall,
probably to Harry's great cost.

Jim Ferer




From alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Mar 13 03:25:39 2004
From: alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk (alshainofthenorth)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 03:25:39 -0000
Subject: Theory: Inflation in the wizard economy
Message-ID: <c2tuvj+bmgc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92878

The evil, evil Yahoo wasn't much help when I searched for similar 
posts, so here goes. Apologies if I'm stealing someone's thoughts -- 
no offence intended.

A discussion of the price of Harry's wand and the pairs of 
Omnioculars he bought at the Quidditch world cup gave me a sudden 
brainstorm. Surely a wand is worth more than a pair of Omnioculars, 
people reasoned. Well, what do we call it in the Muggle world when 
the same nominal amount of money buys less than it did three years 
ago? Yup, *inflation*. 

Now I'm more and more considering the hypothesis that the wizarding 
world is suffering from an increasingly more debased currency. 
Inflation rates don't need to be as high as in Argentina or inter-war 
Germany, just enough that you'd notice a difference after a couple of 
years. Here are some possible culprits:

1. Fudge. Just the kind of dunderhead politician who sets the money-
presses rolling since he wants to be remembered as the man who made 
the wizarding economy flourish. Suppose further that he has some kind 
of hold on the goblins of Gringotts (the Quibbler may have got hold 
of the right end of the stick) and forces them to mint more money. 
More Galleons in circulation means devaluation of the currency (the 
gold might or might not be mixed up with base metals.) The scenario 
has one good side: If Fudge's discovered playing with the money 
supply, he'll be kicked out of office for natural causes.

2. The goblins themselves. Sort of same idea as above, but on their 
own initiative. Motive: Destabilising the magical society from 
within, since open rebellion doesn't work.  

3. Voldemort. IF he takes advice from his Death Eaters, they might 
convince him that it's a good way to disrupt society. It's a little 
too subtle for Voldemort, but Lucius seems to be a man with financial 
savvy and the ear of the Minister for Magic.  See # 1 - Fudge may 
become convinced that he'll be covered in glory by giving the wizard 
on the street more money in his Mokeskin moneybag. It could also be a 
good way of smearing Muggles and Muggle-borns (see my point about 
Hermione below.)

This theory would also cast some additional light on the poverty of 
the Weasleys. They may have done well before, but they're just the 
kind of family who would be struck the hardest by increasing 
inflation unless their money was safely invested.

Our main window into the world of the Wizards is a teenage boy with a 
small fortune and no adult to control his spending habits. Would he 
be the first one to notice if the price of Chocolate Frogs went up? 
Then Hermione - IIRC the pound sterling was quite stable during the 
90s, so she'll actually be favoured since she gets more Galleons for 
her pounds. This might work in the favour of the Voldemort-
supporters, since it would stir up discontent against Muggles and 
Muggle-borns. Ron -- his family has been poor for as long as he 
remembers, so he'd be used to hearing about how expensive everything 
is and not connect it to fiscal politics. (And what would happen if 
Percy found out that Fudge is the indirect cause of his family's 
poverty?) 

So what do you think? Is JKR preparing us for a financial scandal in 
books six or seven (might be a good way to bring in the Goblins)? Or 
is inflation too mundane a subject to find its way into books about a 
magical world? The more I think about this the more I believe in it, 
so I need some contrary opinions before my head swells too much.

Alshain 
(P.S. As the good Mr Pope spoke, "a little learning is a dangerous 
thing". If I upset any economists by this post, I only did five 
credits of economics in uni.)





From snapesmate at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 13 03:40:50 2004
From: snapesmate at hotmail.com (snapesmate)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 03:40:50 -0000
Subject: Significant Lily?
In-Reply-To: <c2t4r1+lur4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2tvs2+fdlv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92879

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "thephoenixrisingteam" 
<thephoenixrisingteam at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" <stevejjen at e...> 
> wrote:
> 
> > In a thread this sunmmer, Richelle noted that in the Pensieve 
scene 
> > we find out Lily's eyes are almond-shaped. Since we already know 
> her 
> > eyes are important, this was some additional information. The 
only 
> > other character that has almond-shaped eyes is the sphinx in GOF. 
> > Coincidence, red herring? I don't think so, because the BIG thing 
> > we're going to find out about in Book 7 is the Harry/Lily eye 
> > connection, so the shape is another clue. 
> > 
> > It just seems like the significance of the eyes has to be a power 
> > Lily and Harry possess that is beyond the normal witch/wizard's 
> > powers. 
> > 
> > Here's the thread if anyone is interested:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/75287
> > 
> > Jen Reese
> 
> Mlle: This is an out-of-book example, but it seemed to me food for 
> thought anyway. I read this and immediately thought of Harry 
Potter. 
> This is a passage from the Neverending Story, by Michael Ende:
> 
> "[Engywook says]...the Great Riddle gate. And the two sphinxes. 
That 
> gate is always open, obviously. There's nothing to close. But even 
> so, no one can get through unless the sphinxes close their eyes. 
And 
> do you know why? The gaze of a sphinx is different from the gaze of 
> any other creature. You and I and everybody else, our eyes take 
> something in. We see the world. The sphinx sees nothing. In a 
sense, 
> she is blind.  But her eyes send something out. And what do her 
eyes 
> send out? All the riddles of the universe. That's why these 
sphinxes 
> are always looking at each other. Because only another sphinx can 
> stand a sphinx's gaze..." - Neverending Story - Michael Ende pg 81 
> Penguin edition. 
> 
> Now, my question is, is there a common mythological story that 
> relates sphinxes with significant eyes?
> 
> As a sidenote, another interesting thing about sphinxes is that 
they 
> tell RIDDLEs...and we've already got a major character with that 
> name..... hmmmmm...... I don't know what it means, but it certainly 
> is interesting....


Eyes were important at the end of CoS too, as Fawkes blinded the 
basilisk to help Harry.  JKR has already alluded that Harry's eye 
colour, the need for glasses, (and shape?) are a clue to Harry's 
ability to defeat Voldemort.  Curious...
Lynnette, who thinks Snape IS a good guy, even if he is NOT a nice 
guy!




From sydorov47 at yahoo.com.au  Sat Mar 13 03:38:17 2004
From: sydorov47 at yahoo.com.au (sydorov47)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 03:38:17 -0000
Subject: Tom Riddles School House
In-Reply-To: <c2tnoa+103du@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2tvn9+re76@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92880

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fiondavhar" <enigma_only at h...> 
wrote:

> Nowhere, in any of the books, is it stated that Tom Riddle, a.k.a 
> Lord Voldemort, was in Slytherin house. Logically, we all assume that 
> he was, being Slytherin's Heir, but wouldn't it be quite the JKR 
> bombshell if he wern't?


Just 2 knuts contaminated by the CS movie - Tom Riddle wears 
Slytherin uniform in the movie.

If Slytherin House would reject him then he would not be so proud of 
his ancestry.

"sydorov"




From snapesmate at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 13 04:00:06 2004
From: snapesmate at hotmail.com (snapesmate)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 04:00:06 -0000
Subject: Snape and the MOM  (Was: Snape the coward or the one left forever?
In-Reply-To: <c2tr39+inp8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2u106+aenh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92881

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "suehpfan" <stanleys at s...> 
wrote:
><snip>> > 
> Snapesmate asked:
> > Is there actually canon stating Snape is still a DE?  
> snip
> 
> Sue here:
> I'm looking for clarification.  From the way I read the books, 
there 
> is no way for Snape to *not* be a DE.  If we believe Sirius and 
> Voldemort himself, a DE has two options: the Dark Lord forever or 
> death.  The only way Snape could free himself is to have Voldemort  
> and all of his loyal supporters dead.  As DD said they are all just 
> as dangerous as he is.
> 
> As far as Voldemort's knowledge of Snape's participation in the 
Order 
> there are really only two options here as well.  Voldemort does not 
> know (because as Carol said, there isn't anyone who would know 
except 
> DD) and Snape is loyal to the Order or Voldemort knows Snape is in 
> the Order and he is betraying them.
> 
> That's my thoughts anyway.
> Sue

Snapesmate:
Professor Dumbledore stated at Karkarov's trial, that he had "already 
testified" Severus Snape had rejoined their (the anti-Voldemort side)
side before Voldemort's downfall.  Every person in that courtroom 
heard him as well as any in attendance when he first testified.  How 
do we know there were no DEs in their midst?  Many had gotten off 
because they said they had been under a curse, etc.  How do we know 
these were not public trials with information being reported in the 
Daily Prophet (or any other WW news media).  I am sure the 
prosecution of anyone suspected of being a Voldemort supporter or 
sympathizer would be of great interest to the WW population as well 
as Muggle leaders who are knowledgeable of the WW.  I do not see how 
it could be a secret that Snape had switched allegiances the first 
time around, and has now returned to the DEs.  Especially since 
people like Fudge know about Snape's previous work as a spy for 
Professor Dumbledore.  I would not trust Fudge to keep anything a 
secret.  He is the type who would blab just to show off!  Not to 
mention the fact that there is something crooked about him too...
Lynnette, who thinks Snape IS a good guy, even if he is NOT a nice 
guy!




From greatraven at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 13 04:45:18 2004
From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 04:45:18 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore's Nitwit
In-Reply-To: <c2trn5+chb7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2u3ku+egt5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92882

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "drjuliehoward" 
<drjuliehoward at y...> wrote:
> I tried searching the archives but coule not find anything on 
this.  
> It is from the first book, so something must have been posted 
about 
> it.  On US hardback 123, Dumbledore's few words were "Nitwit!  
> Blubber!  Oddment!  Tweak!  Thank you!"
> Question 1: What in the world does it mean?
> Question 2: Are they the same in the UK version?
> 
> Julie

Sue B:

My impression was that it was tongue-in-cheek. When people 
say, "I want to say just a few words," they usually mean they want 
to make a speech, however short. But he actually did just say "a 
few words", to start the term off with a joke.




From greatelderone at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 13 04:51:50 2004
From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 04:51:50 -0000
Subject: Is Vernon so Bad?
In-Reply-To: <Law11-OE31lvepUHl0w0002464c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <c2u416+91kr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92883

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Christopher Nuttall" 
<christophernuttall at h...> wrote:
> -Vernon provides an excellent and above-average standard of living 
>for his family and even provides Harry with enough food to live.  
>That is a better achievement than most families do in this day and 
>age.

Most families also don't abuse the children put under their care.
And he underfed Harry while feeding his son until he became fat and 
obese.

> -Vernon is a caring parent who only wants the best for his son.  
>Now, to some extent Dudley has been spoiled, but in OOP, he has 
>improved himself enormously.  Vernon was right when he said 
>that 'Smeltings' would be the making of him, although this was 
>partly against the wishes of his mother, who insisted that he was 
>only 'big-boned'.  

Improved enormously? What? You realize that Dudley is on the road 
towards becoming a criminal and a petty thug from the looks of it due 
to their spoiling of the child? In fact I won't be suprised if he 
gets carted off to St. Brutus's in one of the next books.

> -Vernon is concerned enough about his family that he is willing to 
>throw Harry out on the street (which would offer the chance of 
>punishment, whether Muggle child protection services, or 
>Dumbledore), in order that Voldemort might look for him elsewhere 
>and ignore the merely Muggle Dursleys'.  He must know (from Lily and 
>James' deaths if nothing else) that the wizarding world can kill.

Wow that really shows you how great he is. He throws out a kid who he 
has treated like crap for the last 14 years when the first signs of 
danger comes his way.
 
> Yes, Vernon treats Harry in a dreadful manner, but is that not     
> understandable?  Harry represents a clear and present danger to his 
> family - like standing next to an unexploded bomb - both by        
> attracting attention from Voldemort and by acts of underage,        
> uncontrolled, magic. 

Thats still no excuse for mistreating him especially since the child 
himself doesn't have any control over what he can or can't do.

>Further, Harry is not directly related to Vernon, stronger men than 
> he would be unhappy about providing for such a child.  Its         
> not 'right', but it is understandable.  

Stronger men? Stronger men would have taken Harry in and treated him 
like his own son seeing how the kid had no parents and was overall 
better than Dudley as an infant.

The fact that Vernon pretty much treated Harry like dirt and mentally 
abused a child put under his care after his parents died just tells 
you how bad he is. 

Seems like you need more work to become a devil's advocate. :)




From greatraven at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 13 04:56:52 2004
From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 04:56:52 -0000
Subject: Theory: Inflation in the wizard economy
In-Reply-To: <c2tuvj+bmgc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2u4al+ptiu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92884

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "alshainofthenorth" 
<alshainofthenorth at y...> wrote:

> 
> A discussion of the price of Harry's wand and the pairs of 
> Omnioculars he bought at the Quidditch world cup gave me a 
sudden 
> brainstorm. Surely a wand is worth more than a pair of 
Omnioculars, 
> people reasoned. Well, what do we call it in the Muggle world 
when 
> the same nominal amount of money buys less than it did three 
years 
> ago? Yup, *inflation*. 
> 
Sue B: Chuckle! What a fascinating theory! And why not, since 
inflation is the bane of the rest of the world? When we were first 
told about the wizard economy in the first book, the impression I 
got was that the Galleon was worth quite a lot, certainly more 
than the pound sterling, and Percy makes a 10 Galleon bet with 
his girlfriend in PoA which he can't afford to pay, yet by OoP, the 
Weasley twins are selling their joke goods like hotcakes, for - 
what, 25 Galleons on the average? 

The mind boggles at the kind of investments you could make in 
the WW: "Darling, I've just put all our money into Madam Malkin's 
Robes Incorporated..."

I wouldn't count on Fudge getting the better of the goblins, 
though; they're not dumb! And I'd be prepared to bet they run the 
WW economy, through Gringotts Bank. Good on them, too, 
considering the way they're treated by the wizards.




From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Sat Mar 13 06:34:52 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 06:34:52 -0000
Subject: Snape and the MOM  (Was: Snape the coward or the one left forever?
In-Reply-To: <c2u106+aenh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2ua2c+9lq5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92885

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snapesmate" <snapesmate at h...> 
wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "suehpfan" <stanleys at s...> 
> wrote:
> ><snip>> > 
> > Snapesmate asked:
> > > Is there actually canon stating Snape is still a DE?  
> > snip
> > 
> > Sue here:
> > I'm looking for clarification.  From the way I read the books, 
> there 
> > is no way for Snape to *not* be a DE.  If we believe Sirius and 
> > Voldemort himself, a DE has two options: the Dark Lord forever or 
> > death.  The only way Snape could free himself is to have 
Voldemort  
> > and all of his loyal supporters dead.  As DD said they are all 
just 
> > as dangerous as he is.
> > 
> > As far as Voldemort's knowledge of Snape's participation in the 
> Order 
> > there are really only two options here as well.  Voldemort does 
not 
> > know (because as Carol said, there isn't anyone who would know 
> except 
> > DD) and Snape is loyal to the Order or Voldemort knows Snape is 
in 
> > the Order and he is betraying them.
> > 
> > That's my thoughts anyway.
> > Sue
> 
> Snapesmate:
> Professor Dumbledore stated at Karkarov's trial, that he 
had "already 
> testified" Severus Snape had rejoined their (the anti-Voldemort 
side)
> side before Voldemort's downfall.  Every person in that courtroom 
> heard him as well as any in attendance when he first testified.  
How 
> do we know there were no DEs in their midst?  
snip...
> Lynnette, who thinks Snape IS a good guy, even if he is NOT a nice 
> guy!

No doubt this is true.  *Everyone* knew Lucius Malfoy was under the 
Imperius Curse too ;).  The question was in regard to Snape being a 
member of the Order not about his denouncing Voldemort.  Voldemort is 
very aware that everyone in the circle around him at the graveyard 
had denounced him or they would be in Azkaban, which is, of course, 
the reason the people in Azkaban would be so well rewarded when they 
were freed.  The problem for Snape is that he also (according to DD) 
turned spy and everyone in the room knew that as well.  Which is why 
so many of us think he is the one Voldemort "believed" had left him 
forever.

That is the perspective from which I wrote my post anyway.
Sue




From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Sat Mar 13 06:39:00 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 06:39:00 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore's Nitwit
In-Reply-To: <c2u3ku+egt5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2uaa4+46fa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92886

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sbursztynski" 
<greatraven at h...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "drjuliehoward" 
> <drjuliehoward at y...> wrote:
> > I tried searching the archives but coule not find anything on 
> this.  
> > It is from the first book, so something must have been posted 
> about 
> > it.  On US hardback 123, Dumbledore's few words were "Nitwit!  
> > Blubber!  Oddment!  Tweak!  Thank you!"
> > Question 1: What in the world does it mean?
> > Question 2: Are they the same in the UK version?
> > 
> > Julie
> 
> Sue B:
> 
> My impression was that it was tongue-in-cheek. When people 
> say, "I want to say just a few words," they usually mean they want 
> to make a speech, however short. But he actually did just say "a 
> few words", to start the term off with a joke.

And the other Sue (not to be confused with any of the Susans :):
I thought after reading the other books that perhaps he was calling 
out names of house elves down in the kitchen.  One elf for each 
table.  I agree with the other Sue that it was probably also intended 
to show DD's sense of humor. Sort of like the singing of the school 
song which we have never seen again.





From gbannister10 at aol.com  Sat Mar 13 07:52:27 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 07:52:27 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore's Nitwit
In-Reply-To: <c2trn5+chb7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2uejr+86ta@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92887

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "drjuliehoward" 
<drjuliehoward at y...> wrote:

Julie:
> I tried searching the archives but coule not find anything on 
this.  
> It is from the first book, so something must have been posted about 
> it.  On US hardback 123, Dumbledore's few words were "Nitwit!  
> Blubber!  Oddment!  Tweak!  Thank you!"
> Question 1: What in the world does it mean?
> Question 2: Are they the same in the UK version?

Geoff:
Answer to q.2 is "Yes". Chapter "The Sorting Hat" p.92 UK edition.




From patientx3 at aol.com  Sat Mar 13 09:25:29 2004
From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 09:25:29 -0000
Subject: Snape and the MOM  (Was: Snape the coward or the one left forever?
In-Reply-To: <c2u106+aenh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2uk29+l8c8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92888

Snapesmate wrote:
>>Professor Dumbledore stated at Karkarov's trial, that he 
had "already testified" Severus Snape had rejoined their (the anti-
Voldemort side) side before Voldemort's downfall. Every person in 
that courtroom heard him as well as any in attendance when he first 
testified. How do we know there were no DEs in their midst? 
<snip>
 I do not see how it could be a secret that Snape had switched 
allegiances the first time around, and has now returned to the DEs.<<

HunterGreen:
Unless Voldemort sent him to be a spy for his side by pretending to 
have denounced his DE ways (which Snape could easily use as an excuse 
to leave Voldemort without being murdered). That would explain what 
Voldemort is having Snape do now, and why Snape couldn't be at the 
DOM. (btw this is not a theory I came up with, just one I heard 
mentioned several times, and that I completely agree with, otherwise 
the whole situation doesn't make sense).







From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 13 10:07:10 2004
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 10:07:10 -0000
Subject: Ginny Pet
In-Reply-To: <c2tda1+1h7i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2umge+b1bj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92889

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "angygarcia" <angelgava at h...> wrote:
> I've read all 5 books in it's Spanish version, (I live in Mexico), 
> and now that I'm re-reading OoP, I realized about something. ?Does 
> Ginny Weasly have a pet? Because she's always taking care of 
> Crockshanks. ?Is it needed for every student to bring their own pet 
> to Hogwarts?
> 
> -Angie Garcia

bboy_mn:

I'm not aware of Ginny having any pet, and the Weasley pets are pretty
well documented; Errol-the Owl, Hermes-the Owl, Scabbers-the rat,
gnomes-in the garden.

Ginny is friendly to Crookshanks, but so is everybody else. The cat
crawls up into Harry and Ron's lap as often as Hermione's. So I think
Ginny is just being friendly to a friendly cat. 

Students are *allowed* to bring pets, but they are not *required* to
bring pets.

At least that's how I see it.


bboy_mn






From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 13 11:40:31 2004
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 11:40:31 -0000
Subject: Theory: Inflation in the wizard economy
In-Reply-To: <c2tuvj+bmgc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2urvf+t9o3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92890

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "alshainofthenorth"
<alshainofthenorth at y...> wrote:
> 
> ....edited...
> 
> A discussion of the price of Harry's wand and the pairs of 
> Omnioculars he bought at the Quidditch world cup gave me a sudden 
> brainstorm. Surely a wand is worth more than a pair of Omnioculars, 
> people reasoned. Well, what do we call it in the Muggle world when 
> the same nominal amount of money buys less than it did three years 
> ago? Yup, *inflation*. 
> 
> ...edited...
> 
> Alshain 


bboy_mn:

Your analysis was actually pretty good, you started with a basic
premise and backed it up nicely with information, BUT...

Let's start with some perspective on wizard's money

29 Knuts = 1 Sickle
17 Sickles = 1 Galleon

Per JKR's interview-

1 Galleon = 5 Pounds Stirling

for ease of use-
1 Pound Stirling = $7.50

1 Knut = 1.5? US Cents ($.015)
1 Sickle = 44? US Cents ($.44)

One Pound per $7.50 yields an exchange rate of 1.5 which isn't real
accurate but it's easy math. Just convert Galleons to Pounds by
multiplying by 5, then multiply that by 1.5 to get Dollars.

One small problem is, we have no way to adjust the 1:5 G:? exhange
rate. It's fixed by JKR's statement while the ?:$ exchange rate
constantly fluctuates.

So, 

1 wand = G10 = ?50 = $75

and the same for the Omnioculars (?50 or $75).

A fair price for basic muggle binoculars is about $50. For a pair that
has zoom, instant replay, slow motion, and closed caption, $75 doesn't
seem that unreasonable relative to $50 for a common pair.

True you may be able to get binoculars cheaper than $50, but not very
good ones, and TOP quality brand name muggle binocular would run
closer to $100.

So, let's look at the price of a few other things-

1 Bottle Butter Beer @ Hog's Head in OotP = 2 Sickles = $.88

1 New Quill = 15S + 5K = $6.675

1 Basic Fireworks Blaze Box (OoP) = G5 = $37.50

1 Deflagration Deluxe (OoP) = G20 = $150.00

Pre-orders for Skiving Snack Boxes about G26 = $195.00

1 Headless Hat (OoP) = G2 = $15.00

(Can anyone think of anything else that we know the price of?)

Nothing there seems that far out of a realistic price range.

$.88 for a bottled soft drink purchase in a pub? I pay $1.00 each for
the brand of Ginger Ale that I typically drink which I purchase at the
grocery store. 

Personally, I always thought G10 ($75) for Harry's wand seemed kind of
cheap, but on the other hand, it is just a stick of wood and a
feather. Note, in the real world, wizard wands run from $20 to $100.
http://www.thewandshop.com/phoenix_wands.htm
http://www.alivans.com/custom/list.asp?c=19271&pageid=6914


So, while I liked your analysis, I really don't see that much
inflation in the current wizard world. But, now that war has started,
everything becomes harder to get and more valuable, that combined with
economic uncertainty could very easily create inflation.

That's for the analysis.

Just a few thoughts.

bboy_mn







From MadameSSnape at aol.com  Sat Mar 13 11:52:49 2004
From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 06:52:49 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Theory: Inflation in the wizard economy
Message-ID: <ea.49544269.2d845011@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92891

In a message dated 3/13/2004 6:41:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
bboy_mn at yahoo.com writes:
So, while I liked your analysis, I really don't see that much
inflation in the current wizard world. But, now that war has started,
everything becomes harder to get and more valuable, that combined with
economic uncertainty could very easily create inflation.
========
Sherrie here, up too early on a weekend:

Bear in mind, too, that the Omnioculars were purchased at what is basically 
the WW equivalent of the Super Bowl, the Daytona 500, or the Olympic Games (or 
in my terms, the 140th anniversary Gettysburg reenactment) <g>).  It's pretty 
much axiomatic that a situation like that always adds a premium to the price 
of "souvenirs" - you've got a captive audience, it's something that doesn't 
happen often, they'll want something to remember it by, hang the price, I don't 
CARE if I can get a t-shirt for $10 in town, I'll pay $25 for THIS one!  So we 
really don't know WHAT the price of the Omnioculars would be under normal 
circumstances - you might be able to get them in the Alley for G5...

Just my 2 (uninflated) Knuts - as ever, YMMV.

Sherrie
"Unless history lives in our present, it has no future." 
PRESERVE OUR CIVIL WAR BATTLEFIELDS!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ms-tamany at rcn.com  Sat Mar 13 13:55:24 2004
From: ms-tamany at rcn.com (Tammy Rizzo)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 08:55:24 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 4340
In-Reply-To: <1079166997.4181.83910.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <4052CC7C.19953.1CA91E8@localhost>

No: HPFGUIDX 92892

Julie wrote:
> I tried searching the archives but coule not find anything on this. 
> It is from the first book, so something must have been posted about
> it.  On US hardback 123, Dumbledore's few words were "Nitwit! 
> Blubber!  Oddment! Tweak!  Thank you!" Question 1: What in the world
> does it mean? Question 2: Are they the same in the UK version?

To which, I (Tammy) replied:
Personally, I figure those particular words, in that particular order, was some sort of 
spell trigger, activating some protection for Harry, beyond what is already in place at 
Hogwarts.  I mean, DD's never repeated such a strange and unexplained bit of 
business -- it was only on Harry's first arrival, and only after he'd been Sorted into 
Gryffendor.

***
Tammy
ms-tamany at rcn.com






From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Sat Mar 13 14:42:25 2004
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 14:42:25 -0000
Subject: Murdering Voldemort (was: What would you think if.....)
In-Reply-To: <c2tu82+9qdl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2v6kh+inho@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92893

Jim Ferer wrote:

> Murder is "The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially
> with premeditated malice."
> 
> Killing Voldemort cannot be murder no matter how Harry does it.  If
> Harry could kill Voldemort with an AK, it would be the only right
> thing to do to save lives.  

I'm not convinced of the value of the above definition, unless 
the 'lawful' part can be explained - even if a court has condemned 
someone to death, for example, that doesn't make it lawful for the 
ordinary citizen to kill them if they escape.  Also the 
word 'especially' sits uneasily in a definition: if an unlawful 
killing happens without premeditated malice, is that murder or not?  
Suppose it premeditated but not malicious (mercy killing?), or 
malicious but not premeditated, and so on?

Anyway, those are matters for OT-Chatter.  The reason for this post 
is that, whatever one's RL definition of murder, I'm pretty sure 
that for Harry to kill Voldemort in any situation other than 
immediate self-defence *would* be regarded as murder by Harry, and, 
I think, by the narrative voice of the story.  I base this on the 
Shrieking Shack scene, where it has been established more or less 
that what Pettigrew has done does deserve death in the eyes of the 
group there, but Harry spares him because he doesn't want his 
father's friends to become murderers.

For myself, I think that's one of Harry's finest moments, because he 
recognises that the important consequences of an act are those that 
follow for the perpetrator: to quote a different canon, "it is not 
what goes into the mouth that defiles a man".

David




From BrwNeil at aol.com  Sat Mar 13 14:43:58 2004
From: BrwNeil at aol.com (BrwNeil at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 09:43:58 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Harry and Hermione together per JKR chat?
Message-ID: <1cb.1bf592c9.2d84782e@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92894


<One other thing: Although I don't see either Ron or Hermione being
<happy together, I have no problem with H/G at all.  She's a great kid.
<I love the way she integrates Fred and George while keeping a lid on
<their wilder tendencies while staying feminine all at the same time. 
<I have to come down on the H/H side because they really, really, click.

Jim Ferer

Finally someone who seems to agree with me.  I'm more anti R/H than pro 
anything.  Surprisingly, way back in Chamber of Secrets I thought Rowlings was 
headed for Harry with Ginny and Ron with Hermione, and based on what we knew about 
the characters back then, I could have accepted that. 

Actually I could probably still accept Harry with Ginny, even Luna or an 
unknown.  My problem is Ron.  Rowling has overdone the fighting for me to accept 
Ron and Hermione as a couple and she has pictured them as incompatible total 
opposites. It amazes me that they are even friends.

Please don't point to a list of situations where Ron and Hermione seem to be 
showing feelings toward each other because I've heard them all.  I've seen an 
equal list from H/H shippers.  In my opinion you are all seeing what you want 
to see.  I'm not even sure that Ron in GoF is showing a caring for Hermione as 
much as he is a brotherly attitude like he did with Ginny and not wanting her 
with Krum.  Remember, we saw that from Harry's view point.  Not once did Ron 
actually say that he liked Hermione.  Harry assumed.

I think at this point Rowling could take relationships anywhere she wants and 
either side could then go back and point to passages that they think showed 
the future.  These are three close friends and we can't read love into every 
line and action.  Some things are done just for frienship.  Ex.  Hermione giving 
Ron a kiss in POA and giving Harry kiss in GoF.  Shipping fans see one as 
love and one as friendship based purely on what you want to see.  I see them both 
as friendship.

That brings me to why I am so anti R/H.  Ron whether on purpose or not, 
inflicts too much hurt.  Even in arguments people must weigh their words.  Sticks 
and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me is a lot of tripe.  
Words can cut deep, especially when spoken by someone you think of as a 
special friend.

Make a list of the good and bad qualities of Harry, Ron, Hermione, Luna, 
Ginny, Draco, Neville and any others that you can think of and then compare them.  
The only person worse for Hermione than Ron is Draco.  

Throw the sticks if you wish, but I'd rather see Hermione with Krum rather 
than Ron.  He may not be able to pronounce her name, but he certainly kne how to 
treat her properly.


  


Neil


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jferer at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 13 15:34:37 2004
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 15:34:37 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Holding the Tiger's Tail
In-Reply-To: <1cb.1bf592c9.2d84782e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <c2v9md+lo0t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92895

Neil: "Please don't point to a list of situations where Ron and
Hermione seem to be showing feelings toward each other because I've
heard them all. I've seen an equal list from H/H shippers. In my
opinion you are all seeing what you want to see. I'm not even sure
that Ron in GoF is showing a caring for Hermione as much as he is a
brotherly attitude like he did with Ginny and not wanting her with
Krum. Remember, we saw that from Harry's view point. Not once did Ron
actually say that he liked Hermione. Harry assumed."

Oh, I think Ron is attracted to Hermione.  It's an open question
whether and how much she returns it.

I agree with you that pointing to a list of situations doesn't do much
to tell us what's going to happen. I think you have to look at their
development more broadly.  Harry and Hermione are converging all the
time, working, thinking and acting together.  Ron, for all his
valuable friendship and loyalty, seems to be along for the ride.

I think Ron's an ordinary guy ? a good ordinary guy ? who wants a wife
he can come home to, talk to, and bring up a family with.  That's
perfectly fine if that's what his wife wants, too, but that's not for
Hermione. She will always seek challenges, tests, to stretch herself.
 It's not a life Ron would be comfortable with, but it's been Harry's
whole life.  He's held the tiger's tail forever, and he can do it with
Hermione.

What female can handle Harry - his fame, his challenges, his
complexity?  I think Ginny could, but the real answer has to be
Hermione.  She's done it already, from Rita Skeeter to Dolores
Umbridge. Cho never could have done it.






From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sat Mar 13 15:45:43 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 15:45:43 -0000
Subject: Minerva McGonagall & The SS Movie Possible Clue? NOT a  Coincidence
In-Reply-To: <c2tgfu+10t0b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2vab7+acso@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92896

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan Miller" 
<constancevigilance at y...> wrote:
> --- Frank wrote:
> > [ELF NOTE: Just a reminder: this post is fine, ... . 
> > -Manya Elf, for the Admin Team]
>  
> >      Hi everyone!
> 
> Hi, Frank!
> 
> >     However, J.K. DOES have quite a LARGE amount of input into 
the 
> > movies ,the content is run by her before being filmed.
> >   
> 
> I think she doesn't have as much input as we wish she did. There 
are 
> things that the movie got Just Plain Wrong. Example - she has the 
> carriages pulled by horses instead of invisibly, as it plainly said 
> in the early books. Now we know that that was important to the 
story, 
> but the movies Got It Wrong and JKR didn't or couldn't correct it. 
> And there, of course, there is the problem with Quirrell. 
<collective 
> groan from the listees> For my theory on Redeemed!Quirrell and why 
he 
> lives, here is the link: 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/87648
> 
> In any case, I think we can make no conclusions based on the 
trophies 
> in the case. And in fact, the movie got that wrong, too.
> 
> ~Constance Vigilance


Potioncat:
Of course, the movies are not canon. The names on the shield may be a 
clue or just a movie insert...perhaps we'll find King in the credits 
if we look.  But in movie CoS we have Snape speaking an "evanesca" 
spell before we had seen one written in the books.  
I realized this after trying to find information about "evanesca" in 
the Lexicon.  I decided that the movie folks had made it 
up for a more dramatic scene.  Then, "evanesca" appeared in OoP.  I 
will of course eat magical crow if anyone has information that 
contradicts this.

Potioncat (who is visiting her mother and using a computer very 
similar to the Weasley's owl Erol to send this)




From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Sat Mar 13 15:50:59 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 15:50:59 +0000
Subject: Keeping the wolf from the door
Message-ID: <390095EE-7506-11D8-998E-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92897

It's been a while since I  had a pop at Lupin (the thread starting with 
'Crying Wolf?' 81846). Time for another look. Mostly I've  been marking 
time hoping that some new information or startling new theory would 
surface, but there has been very  little apart from Pippin and her 
absolute conviction that Lupin is to blame for every disaster since the 
sinking of Atlantis. (A slight exaggeration, but you get the idea.)

Mind you, I've deep suspicions about his part in the HP storyline 
myself, though that could be the fall-out from yet another instance of 
JKR's habit of hoarding *any* information about accessory characters, 
relevant or not, until it can be revealed as part of an explanatory 
exposition at a suitably critical moment. It does  tend to make the 
construction of credible canon-based theories more difficult while 
making it easier to launch suppositions deriving from wishful thinking 
or from the desire to fit a poster's favourite potential story arc. 
It's fun, but it's  asking for trouble.

Unfortunately, very  little new  information could be  gleaned from  
the online chat last week. Was it  that recent? Seems longer  ago than 
that.  Perhaps my time-sense has  been distorted by the current 
manifestation of recrudescent SHIPpingitis, an affliction to which I 
have an in-built immunity; teenage romantic entanglements exercising 
slightly  less fascination than watching a plank warp. Each to their 
own, I suppose.

However, only three bits of new or confirmed intelligence:
1. Lupin is a half-blood,
2. His middle name is John,
3. He was indeed in Gryffindor House.

Not much raw material to work with there.

If all is as it appears on the surface, the first two items could be 
neatly slotted together. 'John' would most likely be from his Muggle 
ancestors - perhaps his father, though it could be from his maternal 
grandfather.  But maybe not; 'James' is an atypical first name for a 
wizard, yet he is supposedly pure-blood. See  what I mean? Apparently 
useful information turns out not to be so specific after all.

I've cast doubts before on his name; it's so unbelievably appropriate - 
  both first and last names having lupine connotations. Too neat. I  
still believe that his name is assumed, either  to  protect his family 
from possible public association with a were-wolf, or because they 
threw him out when he became infected. It's also likely that he 
couldn't enter Hogwarts under his real name - all were-wolves are 
registered at the Ministry, who presumably keep track of them. And an 
almighty  row  would have erupted if the other parents had discovered 
that their darlings were closeted cheek-by-fang with a ravening 
monster. Even DD  would have had difficulty smoothing that one over.

The Gryffindor connection was  more-or-less assumed by most posters, 
but confirmation is nice. It does add a little support (or rather 
doesn't explode) my theory that the Sorting Hat may have been fixed on 
more than one occasion (The Sorting Hat - 87319). In my estimation 
Remus should have been in Ravenclaw, as should Hermione.

Personally, I would have asked very different questions about Remus, 
though  they would have to  be sneaky; JKR being very
reluctant to provide straight answers to straight questions that go to 
the guts of the plot. For example, what about:

1. Remus has a patronus but what form does it take?
He produced "..a silvery thing from his wand.." on the Express in PoA, 
but no description of it's appearance is given.
There are hints that the patronus gives clues to a persons inner self; 
an animal form that looks a bit dubious might give  us  a clue to whose 
side he's really on. I thought it a bit odd that he didn't demonstrate  
his own patronus when teaching Harry how to do it.

2. Just how much of what  happens when they are in wolf mode does a 
were-wolf remember when they've reverted back to human form?
So  far, the only report with any detail that we've had about the 
'Prank' has come from Sirius, a not  unbiased observer. Can Remus 
confirm Sirius' version or is there yet more to come?

3. Why don't  Dementors affect him?
This is the  most intriguing aspect of the Hogwarts Express episode in 
PoA. He doesn't  produce a Patronus to drive them off immediately - he 
*talks* to the damn thing, quite calmly! What makes him think Dementors 
listen to  instructions from anyone they meet? Has he had dealings with 
them before?

Meanwhile, Ron's  Sneakoscope has been spinning like a Dervish. Yes, I 
know Scabbers was there, but I have a nasty suspicious mind. Aren't 
Sneakoscopes supposed to detect untrustworthy persons? Is there canon 
evidence for it reacting to animal forms? Or is it just supposition? I 
can't find any off-hand. I  can recall that there always seemed to be 
some actions by Gred or  Forge for it spinning when Ron had it; maybe 
Scabbers really didn't affect it after all. In which case... Remus 
looks dodgy.

Half in jest he tells Harry that he was made a Prefect to keep James 
and Sirius in order. But he didn't. What does that tell us about him? A 
prevaricator? Avoids his responsibilities? Or a watcher, waiting for 
opportunities? His role in the MoM battle was conveniently glossed 
over, he wasn't mentioned in any of  the action bits. Perhaps he was 
waiting for the opportunity to zap Sirius. Some of us suspect so. He 
didn't  seem to be able to restrain Sirius in Grimmauld Place any 
better than he could when at school. Time to draw a line under a 
beautiful friendship. If he did, who gave him the order, Voldy or DD?

Kneasy




From ladypensieve at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 13 15:56:23 2004
From: ladypensieve at yahoo.com (Lady Pensieve)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 15:56:23 -0000
Subject: What would you think if.....
In-Reply-To: <c2tqih+te83@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2vav7+i9bj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92898

> Gadfly McLellyn here:
> Could it be the Dementors who get Voldie?  I can't remember which 
> book it was but Dumbledore says that there are worst things than 
> death.  How terrible would it be to be immortal but without your 
> soul?  An immortal vegtable, if you will. Gadfly McLellyn<<

For your consideration...

Does anyone remember the Bloody Baron?  When you think of him, does 
his name bring pictures of 'blood' all over him?  Go back and read 
SS - the Bloody Baron has SILVER blood all over him...remind you of 
something? Someone who would take the life of a unicorn lives only a 
half-life?  

What if...things worse than death is becoming a ghost?  We've seen 
Sirius' mum and how horrid she can be - imagine Voldemort and 
useless piece of ectoplasm, possibly at Hogwarts!  That would 
definitely be a fate worse than death...

Kathy




From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 13 16:08:15 2004
From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (drjuliehoward)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 16:08:15 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore's Nitwit
In-Reply-To: <c2uaa4+46fa@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2vblf+nnql@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92899

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "suehpfan" <stanleys at s...> 
wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sbursztynski" 
> <greatraven at h...> wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "drjuliehoward" 
> > <drjuliehoward at y...> wrote:
> > > I tried searching the archives but coule not find anything on 
> > this.  
> > > It is from the first book, so something must have been posted 
> > about 
> > > it.  On US hardback 123, Dumbledore's few words were "Nitwit!  
> > > Blubber!  Oddment!  Tweak!  Thank you!"
> > > Question 1: What in the world does it mean?
> > > Question 2: Are they the same in the UK version?
> > > 
> > > Julie
> > 
> > Sue B:
> > 
> > My impression was that it was tongue-in-cheek. When people 
> > say, "I want to say just a few words," they usually mean they 
want 
> > to make a speech, however short. But he actually did just say "a 
> > few words", to start the term off with a joke.
> 
> And the other Sue (not to be confused with any of the Susans :):
> I thought after reading the other books that perhaps he was 
calling 
> out names of house elves down in the kitchen.  One elf for each 
> table.  I agree with the other Sue that it was probably also 
intended 
> to show DD's sense of humor. Sort of like the singing of the 
school 
> song which we have never seen again.

I, too, had thought it was to show his sense of humor, but one thing 
I have learned on this list...never assume that when it comes to 
JKR!  The way she hides clues is masterful, and I didn't know if 
this was one of those times or not.  I had not thought about them 
possibly being names for House Elves.  That is an interesting 
thought.




From greatelderone at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 13 16:45:05 2004
From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 16:45:05 -0000
Subject: Keeping the wolf from the door
In-Reply-To: <390095EE-7506-11D8-998E-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com>
Message-ID: <c2vdqh+ess3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92900

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Barry Arrowsmith 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
> I've cast doubts before on his name; it's so unbelievably 
appropriate - 
>   both first and last names having lupine connotations. Too neat. I
 
Oh dear. This is as "neat" as Sirus being able to turn into a dog 
like his namessake or that the story always climaxed at the end of 
the school year when they were finished or finishing exams. Just deal 
with it.

 
> still believe that his name is assumed, either  to  protect his 
family 
> from possible public association with a were-wolf, or because they 
> threw him out when he became infected. 

They didn't throw him out remember. They were even involved in 
getting him into Hogwarts in the first place.


> It's also likely that he 
> couldn't enter Hogwarts under his real name - all were-wolves are 
> registered at the Ministry, who presumably keep track of them. And 
an 
> almighty  row  would have erupted if the other parents had 
discovered 
> that their darlings were closeted cheek-by-fang with a ravening 
> monster. Even DD  would have had difficulty smoothing that one over.

What difference would it have made? Just because they are registered 
in the ministry doesn't mean that everyone knows who they are. 
Perhaps the ministry also helped keep Lupin and his lycanthropy a 
secret. I mean afterall Dumbledore was fairly well known even back 
then and he might have had some influence in Lupin's lycanthropy 
being kept a secret.
 
> The Gryffindor connection was  more-or-less assumed by most 
posters, 
> but confirmation is nice. It does add a little support (or rather 
> doesn't explode) my theory that the Sorting Hat may have been fixed 
on 
> more than one occasion (The Sorting Hat - 87319). In my estimation 
> Remus should have been in Ravenclaw, as should Hermione.

You're forgetting that the hat was also based on choice. Harry chose 
Gryffindors over the Slytherins just as Hermione chose the 
Gryffindors over the Ravenclaws during her first discussion with 
Harry and Ron aboard the train. No doubt Lupin did the same thing.
 
> 1. Remus has a patronus but what form does it take?
> He produced "..a silvery thing from his wand.." on the Express in 
PoA, 
> but no description of it's appearance is given.
> There are hints that the patronus gives clues to a persons inner 
self; 
> an animal form that looks a bit dubious might give  us  a clue to 
whose 
> side he's really on. I thought it a bit odd that he didn't 
demonstrate  
> his own patronus when teaching Harry how to do it.

Possibly a wolf. It'd make sense why it was hidden since one of the 
main secret points of the story was that Lupin was a werewolf. Having 
his patronus kept hidden would have helped Rowling in making sure we 
didn't connect the dots regarding Lupin.
 
> 3. Why don't  Dementors affect him?
> This is the  most intriguing aspect of the Hogwarts Express episode 
in 
> PoA. He doesn't  produce a Patronus to drive them off immediately - 
he 
> *talks* to the damn thing, quite calmly! What makes him think 
Dementors 
> listen to  instructions from anyone they meet? Has he had dealings 
with 
> them before?

Perhaps one of the effects of being a half-human werewolf. Have we 
seen the dementors effecting any of the half-humans? 

> Half in jest he tells Harry that he was made a Prefect to keep 
James 
> and Sirius in order. But he didn't. What does that tell us about 
him? 

That he has a weak personality perhaps? Rowling noted that one of his 
weaknesses was that he wanted to be liked. Good enough reason why he 
didn't try and put a leash on his two friends.

> His role in the MoM battle was conveniently glossed 
> over, he wasn't mentioned in any of  the action bits. Perhaps he 
was 
> waiting for the opportunity to zap Sirius. Some of us suspect so. 
He 
> didn't  seem to be able to restrain Sirius in Grimmauld Place any 
> better than he could when at school. Time to draw a line under a 
> beautiful friendship. If he did, who gave him the order, Voldy or 
DD?

Why can't you accept the fact that he  was weak? There are people 
like him in real life and it'd explain all of his actions.





From annemehr at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 13 17:26:59 2004
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 17:26:59 -0000
Subject: What would you think if.....
In-Reply-To: <c2vav7+i9bj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2vg93+l6t1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92901

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lady Pensieve"
<ladypensieve at y...> (Kathy) wrote:
> For your consideration...
> 
> Does anyone remember the Bloody Baron?  When you think of him, does 
> his name bring pictures of 'blood' all over him?  Go back and read 
> SS - the Bloody Baron has SILVER blood all over him...remind you of 
> something? Someone who would take the life of a unicorn lives only a 
> half-life?

Annemehr:
I wondered, too, but then I checked, and everything about all the
ghosts is silvery when any color at all is mentioned.  Even Moaning
Myrtle blushes silver.  Of course, that doesn't *rule out* unicorn
blood for the Bloody Baron!

Kathy:  
> 
> What if...things worse than death is becoming a ghost?  We've seen 
> Sirius' mum and how horrid she can be - imagine Voldemort and 
> useless piece of ectoplasm, possibly at Hogwarts!  That would 
> definitely be a fate worse than death...
> 
> Kathy

Annemehr:
I'd love that!  Voldemort drifts back resentfully to Hogwarts as a
ghost, and attempts to usurp the Bloody Baron at the top of the
pecking order.  But to his eternal consternation, the Bloody Baron
overmatches him easily.  In fact, Moaning Myrtle is quite satisfied to
find that even she can kick around her one-time murderer.  The great
Lord Voldemort is finally forced to haunt the house-elves' lavatory
forever.  heh, heh, heh...

Annemehr





From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com  Sat Mar 13 17:36:57 2004
From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 12:36:57 EST
Subject: Harry's Memory
Message-ID: <79.244a9249.2d84a0b9@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92902

This isn't exactly a huge, discussion worthy, thought-provoking subject.... 

...but it has been on my mind and I thought I'd bring it up. 

How is it that Harry couldn't remember Nicolas Flamel,  nor  that the 
corridor he ran down with Mr. Weasley on the day of his hearing,  Nor the word 
'Occulmency' (until later on) and a few other things, but he could remember the 
'code' to get into the MoM from the Visitor's Entrance?  

~Cassie~ 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From siskiou at msn.com  Sat Mar 13 18:43:20 2004
From: siskiou at msn.com (Susanne)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 10:43:20 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Holding the Tiger's Tail
In-Reply-To: <c2v9md+lo0t@eGroups.com>
References: <1cb.1bf592c9.2d84782e@aol.com> <c2v9md+lo0t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9992132.20040313104320@msn.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92903



Hi,

Saturday, March 13, 2004, 7:34:37 AM, Jim wrote:

> I think Ron's an ordinary guy  a good ordinary guy  who wants a wife
> he can come home to, talk to, and bring up a family with.  That's
> perfectly fine if that's what his wife wants, too, but that's not for
> Hermione.

Uh, frankly, how do you know that's what Ron wants or needs?

After all, he *is* attracted to Hermione, who has none of
those qualities you listed.

And adressing what a couple of people said about Ron just
being too hurtful to Hermione:

Hermione gives back just as good, and sometimes even starts
an argument.
She isn't the poor little girl, who hides crying in the
bathroom anymore, and even when she did in book one, it had
a lot to do with her own behavior.
Her way of always correcting people, and spouting her
superior knowledge, whether asked or not, was not endearing.

Hermione has her heart in the right place, but her actions
and what she says aren't always the best choice, and the
same is the case for Ron.

For some reason, Hermione is seen by many readers as this
perfect person, who "deserves" the "best" guy, which is, of
course, Harry.

But I don't see Harry's and Hermione's relationship as any
more ideal than Ron and Hermione's.

A lot seems to depend on how the reader feels about
relationships. If they see verbal sparring as all around
negative, and have never seen that it can be just as loving
as the quiet, on the surface always getting along,
relationships.
Verbal sparring can be a lot of fun, if it is tempered by
love, and Ron seems to be learning to curb things more,
already, while Hermione is now in her more nasty phase.
We'll see how things develop in the next book, hopefully not
too far in the future.

In a relationship, you need to be able to talk things out,
instead of avoiding an issue, or the other person, in order
to keep things nice and not argue.
There are too many times, where Harry does this, while
Hermione never hesitates to say what she thinks.

This could turn very volatile in a romantic relationship,
once the rose colored glasses come off.
If you never mention your discontent with certain habits, it
suddenly all comes exploding out at the first opportunity.

So, no, I don't think Harry and Hermione are soulmates, and
ideal partners for a lasting relationship.

As long as Harry does what Hermione wants, yes, but that's
only good for Hermione, and not for Harry.
He'd probably retreat more and more, until things get too
much for him altogether.

Either way, wether H/Hr or R/Hr, they'd have to work on
their relationship.

-- 
Best regards,
 Susanne                           mailto:siskiou at msn.com

Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/





From rorogersmc at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 13 04:35:25 2004
From: rorogersmc at yahoo.com (rorogersmc)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 04:35:25 -0000
Subject: Weasley's ages
Message-ID: <c2u32d+bh50@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92904

<Snip from Lionel: I can't remember off hand, but I think Wood simply says he saw Charlie play.  This seems to imply that they did not play together, but does not rule out the possibility entirely.  We don't know for sure who the Gr seeker was the year before Harry started; but it seems highly unlikely that it was Charlie.  This means that Charlie was already gone that year, or was there but didn't play.  The former seems more likely.  So we either need to push Charlie's age back one more year, or consider that he left after his sixth year. Still close to what Rowling said, and without violating anything else.>

I have to agree with some of the statements in Lionel's reply, and disagree with others.   Maybe not disagree, but, oh I don't know
 just read on and you'll see where I'm going with my ideas.   Also, I am going by SS US Paperback Ed. 1999, so if quotes are different in other books, and therefore lead to different conclusions, sorry in advance. (Also, pgs are from paperback ed and may not be same as Hardcover.)

1) Charlie seeker 2+ years before Harry.  Ch 6 (pg 99)  "Bill and Charlie have already left ? Bill was head boy and Charlie was captain of Quidditch."  Ch 9 pg 152) "Heaven knows, we need a better team than last year.  Flattened in the last match by Slytherin, I couldn't look Severus Snape in the face for weeks."  Ch 11 (pg 185) "We know Oliver's speech by heart," Fred told Harry, "we were on the team last year."  Charlie was the Gryffindor captain, but couldn't have been captain the year before PS/SS because Wood was captain then.  So the latest he could have been captain and therefore seeker, is 2 years before PS/SS.  Also, the year before PS/SS the Gryffindor team lost badly to Slytherin, which causes me to believe it was the first year that Charlie wasn't playing for the team.  However, it is possible that there is even more than 2 years difference between Charlie's last year, and Harry's first.  Since he was captain it is unlikely, if not impossible that Charlie would have been at Hogwarts the year befor PS/SS but not played.

2) Charlie leaving after his sixth year.  No way.  One, Mrs. Weasley would have had a FIT, and she seems to regard Charlie as a very good example, so my guess would be he didn't do anything so disagreeable as leave school early.  Two, Charlie was captain of Quidditch, and as such must really have liked playing.  Unlikely he would give up a year of playing at school, when he wasn't planning on going into Quidditch as a career.

By my thinking Charlie would have been at least 4 years ahead of Percy, making him at least 3+ years older.  As far as I know, nothing in any other books contradicts this, but it does seem to contradict what the *wonderful* JK Rowling said in response to a question in the recent online chat.  Something we have to keep in mind is that JK Rowling has to deal with thousands of details, many of which we as readers will never even know.  At the chat, which was only an hour long, she was answering questions off the top of her head, and could have misremembered her own notes on the ages of the Weasleys.   She even electronically cringes at having to do math to figure out their ages.  As much as what JK Rowling says is important, what she writes is more important. I guess my point in all of this is that until something in future books gives a different age for Charlie, it makes more sense to me to calculate his age by PS/SS, then by what JK Rowling recently intimated.

Rachael, who thinks JK Rowling is one of the greatest writers of all time, but hey, these little inconsistencies do crop up.






From puju02 at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Mar 13 06:11:46 2004
From: puju02 at yahoo.co.uk (puju02)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 06:11:46 -0000
Subject: JKR chat--Snape the coward or the one left forever?
In-Reply-To: <c2rk2u+v1d1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2u8n2+3hn7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92905


> Susan:
> No, no, no!!!  Please don't get me wrong on that topic!  *I* happen 
> to think Snape is truly working for DD & the Order, and that he is 
> very brave!  No, *all* I was trying to do was argue the *possibility* 
> that Snape might be the one *Voldy* thought of as the coward, rather 
> than necessarily the one Voldy thought was gone forever.  

>> 
> Carol:
> Poor SSS! I had to laugh when I saw Puja's post and wondered how you
> would respond to it. 
> Carol, who hopes you'll forgive her for laughing

Puja: :-) I don't mind you laughing, Carol. and Susan, I wasn't 
reading you wrong. I was just looking for justifications to my own 
doubts about Snape that is why I put questions to you. It's a 
friendly discussion, I know :-)

I happened to like Snape too and trust him..more in OoTP, but one of 
JKR's interview put me on my guard. She said "Don't be too sure about 
Snape. I would not trust him so much yet." That is why I was 
wondering about it. Ofcourse I know both of you were discussing LV's 
point of view on the missing death eaters  :-)

Nothing personal :-) Puja





From Hunta_Girl at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 13 06:40:53 2004
From: Hunta_Girl at hotmail.com (lizette_coleman)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 06:40:53 -0000
Subject: Is Vernon so Bad?
In-Reply-To: <c2u416+91kr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2uadl+ji30@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92906

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatelderone" 
<greatelderone at y...> wrote:
> 
> The fact that Vernon pretty much treated Harry like dirt and mentally 
> abused a child put under his care after his parents died just tells 
> you how bad he is. 
> 
> Seems like you need more work to become a devil's advocate. :)


Hi I'm new here, but I was reading through the latest messages and I 
have to say I agree with greatelderone. Vernon is a through and 
through prat. Dudley, there may still be hope for - we'll have to 
wait and see. Petunia is up to more to do with magic than she let's 
on I reckon.

HUNTA








From puju02 at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Mar 13 06:47:05 2004
From: puju02 at yahoo.co.uk (puju02)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 06:47:05 -0000
Subject: two way mirror of sirius
In-Reply-To: <20040312163036.40867.qmail@web60104.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c2uap9+g5qo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92907


> Kashelkar writes:
Also, if it was never to be used why did JKR introduce this item in 
the story at all???
> 
> owlery2003 replies:
> 
 it's (the mirror) probably still at #12Gp. Given it was a 2-way 
communication gizmo, I'm guessing that there's some extension of that 
use, 

Puja: The two-way mirror will definitely appear in the forthcoming 
books- JKR mentioned on her world book day online chat that it will 
(well, in an indirect way). I wonder as the books get darker (and 
only two mroe dangerous ones left) is there any possibility that it 
falls in the wrong hands? Harry gets in touch with the wrong people 
and stumbles on some other secrects of the past??






From kashelkar at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 13 09:16:00 2004
From: kashelkar at yahoo.com (Kashelkar)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 01:16:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Apparating into the Ministry...
Message-ID: <20040313091600.45495.qmail@web13426.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92908

Elihu wrote: 
If apparation/Disapparation isn't possible to all locations in the MOM, then 
the Dept of Mysteries would be among the places that you can't
apparate to. However, Dumbledore had to put the DEs in a room with an anti-apparation jinx. That means that, if fact, you can disapparate from anywhere in the ministry.

Rachael's Reply: 
I agree that this is a likely possibility. The secrecy of the DOM would need to be protected by anti-apparation spells because I doubtthat the Ministry wouldeven allow the possibility that any old wizard could just apparate into it (think what theWeasley Twins would do if this were possible!) 

But, if only select wizards, "unspeakables", are allowed in, there should be no harm in allowing those authorizedwizards to disapparate when they are ready to leave.

Another thought is, maybe if a place is spelled againstapparation,it is automatically spelled against disapparation.However, apparation into the DOM I definitely think is a no, no.

Carol:
I definitely agree that you can't apparate or disapparate into the DoM itself. Bode, an "unspeakable" who works in the DoM, may well have apparated into the atrium (with a lot of other people), but he  rides the lift with Harry and Mr. Weasley. But I'm pretty sure that you can't apparate or disapparate *anywhere* in the MoM except the atrium, which is where everyone seems to enter and leave the building -- even LV and Dumbledore. If you can apparate inside the building, why have lifts on every floor? Even the memos take the lift. 

Kashelkar's reply:

It's possible that the only place where apparation/disapparation is possible within MoM is the atrium, however, in the scene, when Harry lifts the prophecy from the stand, the DEs start apparating all around him, how's this possible??? Doesn't this indicate that, it's possible to apparate inside the DoM, that too in the hall of prophecies??




From kashelkar at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 13 09:20:35 2004
From: kashelkar at yahoo.com (Kashelkar)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 01:20:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Why didn't Voldy grab the Prophecy himself??
Message-ID: <20040313092035.46182.qmail@web13426.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92909

Kashelkar:
The biggest flaw in this book seems to be the basic plot.  I'm not  still convinced why Voldemort didn't just apparate near the 97th row of shelves in the Dept of Mysteries, picked up the prophecy and Disapparate.

Pippin:
The Ministry believed that Voldemort was the only one, besides Harry, who could take the prophecy. Even if there were actually other ways to get it, if it disappeared while Harry was known to be at Hogwarts, its disappearance would be proof that Voldemort had returned. Once Voldemort realized this, he concentrated his efforts on trying to get Harry to retrieve the prophecy for him.

Kashelkar replies:

If Voldy was afraid of the fact that a missing orb (from a hall full of thousands of them) would disclose him, he definitely could create a fake/replica of the same and replace theauthentic orb with the fake one asa the work is over.  There is no proof to claim that Harry's prophecy was being guarded specially.




From earendil_fr at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 13 09:43:07 2004
From: earendil_fr at yahoo.com (earendil_fr)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 09:43:07 -0000
Subject: Snape and the MOM  (Was: Snape the coward or the one left forever?
In-Reply-To: <c2ua2c+9lq5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2ul3b+qfsi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92910

Sue wrote:
> No doubt this is true.  *Everyone* knew Lucius Malfoy was under the 
> Imperius Curse too ;).  The question was in regard to Snape being a 
> member of the Order not about his denouncing Voldemort.  Voldemort is 
> very aware that everyone in the circle around him at the graveyard 
> had denounced him or they would be in Azkaban, which is, of course, 
> the reason the people in Azkaban would be so well rewarded when they 
> were freed.  The problem for Snape is that he also (according to DD) 
> turned spy and everyone in the room knew that as well.  Which is why 
> so many of us think he is the one Voldemort "believed" had left him 
> forever.

Or... Snape was supposed to be doing some spying for Voldemort as 
well. Voldemort would know his being a spy and a member of the 
Order, and use him as a double spy to get information from the 
Order... So Dumbledore's words at the trial wouldn't come as a shock.

Which side Snape was really on at that time, and who he gave real 
information about the enemy, could also be debated, since we only 
have Dumbledore's word that he was on the Order's side.

This could also be some kind of Slytherin behaviour from Snape... 
Rooting for both sides and in the end pretend he had always been on 
the side of the winning ones, whoever they were...

Earendil.





From earendil_fr at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 13 10:09:05 2004
From: earendil_fr at yahoo.com (earendil_fr)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 10:09:05 -0000
Subject: Harry and Thestrals
In-Reply-To: <c2tiom+rjfg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2umk1+kj7t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92911

> > Earendil:
> > > Is anyone other than I intrigued by the fact that Harry can suddenly 
> > > see Thestrals in Order of the Phoenix?

> bboy_mn:
> <snip>
> JKR gets to make the rule, and this was her solution which, as she
> desired, allowed her to not introduce the Thestrals at the end of GoF.

Earendil:
I never meant I thought JKR didn't know what she was doing - I am 
absolutely convinced she does. My apologies if my choice of words 
was unwise and led you to believe otherwise.

Anyway, thanks to all those who took the time to answer my question 
and/or point me to older posts dealing with that thread. I searched 
the archives before posting but didn't find anything. Obviously I 
didn't look back enough. And I also obviously need to read the Order 
of the Phoenix another time.


Earendil.







From kashelkar at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 13 11:35:13 2004
From: kashelkar at yahoo.com (Kashelkar)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 03:35:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Why didn't Voldy tip off the ministry about break-in at MoM...
Message-ID: <20040313113513.10927.qmail@web13423.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92912

Kashelkar:
Also, even towards the end when Voldemort lures Harry and the members of DA into the dept of Mysteries, isn't it the simplest just to tip off the Ministry officials (Lucius telling Fudge) of the illegal break-in, and the Ministry officials alongwith aurors would simply arrest the DA members, expel them from hogwarts and punish them severely, (what Fudge, umbridge are dying to do for long...)

Also, the members of the DA (including Sirius) who are rushing to MoM shall fall in the hands of Fudge as an additional bonus.

Pippins writes:

Lucius would have had to explain how he knew Harry was coming. I also think Voldemort expected Harry to show up alone...Voldemort isn't supposed to know about the DA or that Harry has told Snape about his vision...Of course he may know more than he is supposed to, but unless he wants to make it plain that he has a spy in the Order, he has to behave as if he doesn't, always the Catch-22 of espionage. 

Also, your plan doesn't allow Harry to get the prophecy, which was the point of the exercise as far as Voldemort was concerned. 

Kashelkar replies:

I don't really think that Lucius would be required to explain anything, as Fudge and Umbridge (and other people on their side) seem to be so bent on punishing Harry, that he wouldn't demand any explanations at all. Even if he has to, he can always tell that Draco (who is at Hogwarts) informed him. (Also, I've used Lucius's name as an example, it could be anyone.) Also, Harry not being alone is not a problem for Voldy, anyway the MoM people and aurors are going to deal with the gang (ie. Harry and DA members). Also, as I said earlier, the members of the Order(including Sirius), who rush to the MoM on Snape's message, will get caught by Aurors as a bonus, this is a by-product of the plan and Voldy need not be aware of this in advance.

As regards the plan of Voldy, I believe it is 1) to kill Harry, and 2) to rule the world (Conquer the Death). And getting the prophecy is just a step towards it. By tipping off the MoM about the break-in, Voldy shall definitely achieve Harry's expulsion from Hogwarts. And under given situation, I won't be wrong if I expect Fudge to put Harry in Azkaban. If this can be achieved, then the prophecy thing doesn't matter, does it??




From a_b_desert_king at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 13 16:22:03 2004
From: a_b_desert_king at hotmail.com (a_b_desert_king)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 16:22:03 -0000
Subject: Stopper in Death
In-Reply-To: <c2g8v9+b68r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2vcfb+99ov@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92913

> Gadfly McLellyn writes:
> 
> see my post 79500 on Sept 1st, 2003 also, but here is a brief version:
> 
> The reason why Dumbledore trusts Snape and Snape hates Harry is that 
> Snape brewed up some way for the AK curse to fail when it hit Harry, 
> but Harry gets all the credit and fame for this.  So maybe Snape 
> already did stopper death - Harry's death by Voldemort.  It explains 
> why Dumbledore trusts him so much, and why Snape resents Harry's fame 
> because it should be Snape's fame.  But Snape can't let the DE's know 
> this because then he would be number one target for the DE's to 
> murder.  


Heather writes:

I can remember reading somewhere a theory that Harry is not affected 
by poisons (sort of like how he can "duck" curses amazingly 
easily).  The situation mentioned (sorry, I can't exactly remember 
the place now - possibley Mugglenet) was the spider in the maze 
(GoF) which cut Harry with it's pincers.  That spider is poisonous, 
and Harry is not affected (he only has a cut and then sprains his 
ankle when he is dropped 12 feet by the spider). 

I also wonder if Crouch/Moody had added any Veratiserum to the drink 
that he practically forced Harry to drink after his return from the 
graveyard.  The way that Crouch/Moody was asking very pointed 
questions was much the same way that DD was questioning Crouch/Moody 
on veratiserum and also much like the way Umbridge was questioning 
Harry after feeding him fake veratiserum in OotP.

In GoF, Snape threatens Harry with poisoning to 'test his antidote', 
but then Harry is taken away for a photo shoot (interruptions, 
interruptions...).  Maybe he threatens Harry (and not anyone else) 
because he knows Harry can't be poisoned....

Just a thought....:)







From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 13 16:26:51 2004
From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 08:26:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Remus J. Lupin
In-Reply-To: <c2rccv+3dm1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040313162651.81777.qmail@web41801.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92914

rrsryan:
What is the connection between Lupin and James Potter? I am still of 
the thought that James Lily and Remus were involved in a bit of nifty 
transfiguration. Food for thought Remus always calls Harry Potter by 
his first name.

My(mela) reply:  Yes, but so did Sirius.  They knew Harry before all of this stuff.  They were close friends with him and his family.  When you are personal friends with someone you are very likely to call them by their first name.  And one should note that all of the other members of the order of the Pheonix called James  by his first name not Potter. I think it means they saw him on a more personal basis.  
 
~Melanie

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





From tipgardner at netscape.net  Sat Mar 13 17:02:36 2004
From: tipgardner at netscape.net (tipgardner)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 17:02:36 -0000
Subject: Theory: Inflation in the wizard economy
In-Reply-To: <c2urvf+t9o3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2verc+n8kg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92915

> Steve:
 
> for ease of use-
> 1 Pound Stirling = $7.50

Just a typo, but that should read 1 Galleon = ~USD7.50 not GBP1
(which, as you have shown, eqauls ~USD1).

Sorry to nitpick,

Tip





From renee.smith at zoom.co.uk  Sat Mar 13 17:51:26 2004
From: renee.smith at zoom.co.uk (Charles Smith)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 17:51:26 -0000
Subject: Beyond the Veil
Message-ID: <c2vhmu+co5m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92916

Order of the Phoenix Ch 34 p 682
"The gently rippling veil intrigued him; he felt a very strong 
inclination to climb up on the dais and walk through it."

Hi, has anybody noticed that Harry has a fascination with the Room 
with the Veil in the Dept of Mysteries and feels drawn to see behind 
it? Only Ginny and Neville seem to share the fascination. Neville has 
seen death but Ginny hasn't.

Does it mean that they have suicidal tendencies or are self 
destructive in behaviour ie Harry constantly being in mortal danger?

Renee





From casmir2012 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 13 17:58:02 2004
From: casmir2012 at yahoo.com (casmir2012)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 17:58:02 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Holding the Tiger's Tail
In-Reply-To: <c2v9md+lo0t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2vi3a+gqc5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92917

>> I think Ron's an ordinary guy ? a good ordinary guy ? who wants a wife
> he can come home to, talk to, and bring up a family with.  That's
> perfectly fine if that's what his wife wants, too, but that's not for
> Hermione. She will always seek challenges, tests, to stretch herself.
>  It's not a life Ron would be comfortable with, but it's been Harry's
> whole life.  He's held the tiger's tail forever, and he can do it with
> Hermione.
> 
> What female can handle Harry - his fame, his challenges, his
> complexity?  I think Ginny could, but the real answer has to be
> Hermione.  She's done it already, from Rita Skeeter to Dolores
> Umbridge. Cho never could have done it.


I agree.  Also, some time ago, JKR said that the characters were all 
young and "falling in love" with the wrong person.  I do find that 
Hermione is very much like Ron's mother (in demeanor).  This could 
be part of the emotional attraction for Ron.  I would have said at 
one point they could still make it work, but to do so they would 
have to find a place where they could find peace together, or lose 
some of the fight in their personalities (which DOES happen the 
older one gets).

I have to say, I am more of a H/H believer, though JKR did say they 
were always intended to be just friends.  I always thought Ginny and 
Harry would be.  I really like Ginny, she's resourceful, 
adventurous, and has a lot of nerve!

I'm excited to see how it all ends, in the relationship department.  
(Though actually, I think it's a bit dumb that everyone finds their 
right partner by the time they graduate "high school".)

"casmir"




From nkafkafi at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 13 19:04:49 2004
From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 19:04:49 -0000
Subject: How can LV win the war in three weeks
Message-ID: <c2vm0h+rhcu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92918

I've been feeling uneasy every time I was reading that part in GoF 
where imposter!Moody put the Imperius curse on Viktor Krum and made 
him to crucio Cedric. Putting a curse on someone that makes him curse 
somebody else? It didn't seem right somehow, but I couldn't exactly 
put my finger on it. Until today, when finally it dawned on me, and I 
discovered The Terrible Secret: how can LV win the war in just three 
weeks and without even exerting himself.

All he has to do is get outside his hideout and imperio the first 
wizard he meets in the street. Then he should give this wizard just 
three directions:

1. Be a good servant of the Dark Lord.
2. Go and imperio other wizards.
3. Give them these three directions.

If we assume that each imperio'ed wizard imperios just one additional 
wizard per day, in the second day LV will have 2 servants, in the 
third day 4, in the forth day 8, in the fifth day 16... ok, you get 
the picture. In three weeks he will have millions, which is more than 
the wizard population of Britain. Taking control over the whole world 
will require another week or two.

Does this idea sound familiar? You bet! It is exactly the idea that 
makes the computer virus, or the biological virus for that matter, so 
dangerous.  

Well, as Hermione noted once, many of the greatest wizards "haven't 
got an ounce of logic". So let us hope that LV is such a great 
wizard, and he'll never think of this.

:-D

Neri





From hickengruendler at yahoo.de  Sat Mar 13 19:27:15 2004
From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 19:27:15 -0000
Subject: How can LV win the war in three weeks
In-Reply-To: <c2vm0h+rhcu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2vnaj+40a4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92919

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" <nkafkafi at y...> 
wrote:
 
> 
> 1. Be a good servant of the Dark Lord.
> 2. Go and imperio other wizards.
> 3. Give them these three directions.
> 
> If we assume that each imperio'ed wizard imperios just one 
additional 
> wizard per day, in the second day LV will have 2 servants, in the 
> third day 4, in the forth day 8, in the fifth day 16... ok, you get 
> the picture.  

There is a difference: You can't learn the Unforgivables in Hogwarts. 
According to the Fake Moody, you must be very powerful to do them 
(and according to Bellatrix you must enjoy to do so. Although this 
maybe isn't true for those under the Imperius Curse). Krum, on the 
other hand, learned the Unforgivables. They are taught in Durmstrang. 

Hickengruendler




From nkafkafi at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 13 20:26:52 2004
From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 20:26:52 -0000
Subject: How can LV win the war in three weeks
In-Reply-To: <c2vnaj+40a4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2vqqc+3va4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92920

> Hickengruendler:
> There is a difference: You can't learn the Unforgivables in 
Hogwarts. 
> According to the Fake Moody, you must be very powerful to do them 
> (and according to Bellatrix you must enjoy to do so. Although this 
> maybe isn't true for those under the Imperius Curse). Krum, on the 
> other hand, learned the Unforgivables. They are taught in 
Durmstrang. 


Neri:
ARRRRGH! Those pesky little details! OK, thank you Hickengruendler 
for pointing this bug. A little change in programming is clearly 
needed. First, we have to find a wizard who had already learned the 
Imperius curse (we could start our plot to take over the world in 
Durmstrang). Then we imperio this wizard and give him these four 
directions:

1. Be a good servant of the Dark Lord.
2. Go and imperio other wizards.
3. If the imperio'ed wizard is not powerful, order him to be a good 
servant of the Dark Lord.
4. If the imperio'ed wizard is powerful, teach him the Imperius curse 
and give him these four directions.

Conquering the world this way will clearly take more time than my 
first estimation. It depends mainly on the average time it takes to 
teach the Imperius curse to a powerful wizard and the percentage of 
powerful wizards out of the whole wizard population, but we will get 
there in the end.

Neri 





From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Sat Mar 13 20:50:01 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 20:50:01 -0000
Subject: Keeping the wolf from the door
In-Reply-To: <c2vdqh+ess3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2vs5p+qiup@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92921

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatelderone" <greatelderone at y...> wrote:
x>  
> Oh dear. This is as "neat" as Sirus being able to turn into a dog 
> like his namessake or that the story always climaxed at the end of 
> the school year when they were finished or finishing exams. Just deal 
> with it.
> 
>
Kneasy:
Sirius does not mean 'dog', it just happens to be the brightest star in the
constellation Canis Major. It might be referred to as the 'Dog Star' but 
that is because of its position, not its name. It's a common mistake to 
think the name of the brightest star in the constellation means the same
as the name of the constellation itself. It doesn't. Sloppy  research.
Sirius comes from the Greek Seirios, meaning hot or scorching. More
applicable to his temper than his patronus. 

Greatelderone:
> What difference would it have made? Just because they are registered 
> in the ministry doesn't mean that everyone knows who they are. 
> Perhaps the ministry also helped keep Lupin and his lycanthropy a 
> secret. I mean afterall Dumbledore was fairly well known even back 
> then and he might have had some influence in Lupin's lycanthropy 
> being kept a secret.

Kneasy:
You mean they keep a register of dangerous individuals (at a time 
when there was no treatment) and then help slip one  of them into a 
school? Sorry, can't  believe that. 
DD  definitely tried to keep  his lycanthropy a secret, in fact  he was
responsible for getting him into the school, but he'd keep the Ministry
in the dark. 
 
 
Greatelderone: 
> You're forgetting that the hat was also based on choice. Harry chose 
> Gryffindors over the Slytherins just as Hermione chose the 
> Gryffindors over the Ravenclaws during her first discussion with 
> Harry and Ron aboard the train. No doubt Lupin did the same thing.
> 

Kneasy:
Not so. Harry appears to influence the Hat, but there is no evidence that
anyone else ever has. Hermione admits that the hat did  consider  putting
her in Ravenclaw "...but it decided on Gryffindor in the end." (OoP chap 19.)
In PS/SS she says that "...I hope I'm in Gryffindor...but Ravenclaw wouldn't
be too bad." Not exactly a desperate yearning, is it? She'd have accepted 
either one.

Greatelderone: 
> Possibly a wolf. It'd make sense why it was hidden since one of the 
> main secret points of the story was that Lupin was a werewolf. Having 
> his patronus kept hidden would have helped Rowling in making sure we 
> didn't connect the dots regarding Lupin.
>

Kneasy:
Why a wolf? The form of a patronus is innate, lycanthropy is a disease.
Hell of a coincidence to produce a patronus to  match a disease 
contracted in childhood. 
A  wolf patronus  would be a  bad sign, much worse than Peter's rat,
and it seems to be completely alien to his natural character.
Of course, it  may yet turn out to be a wolf if Remus is on the wrong 
side, though if it were it  would  have taken up a lot of room in the
railway carriage. No, his name is hint enough (hint? It's a flashing 
signboard!) to anyone who reads a smattering of mythology, history
or natural history. And if you have even a smidgeon of Latin...

  
Greatelderone: 
> Perhaps one of the effects of being a half-human werewolf. Have we 
> seen the dementors effecting any of the half-humans? 
> 
Kneasy:
You think he's half human? We must be reading different books.
Anyway Hagrid (a half-human) was most certainly afraid of being sent
to Azkaban in CoS. No, Lupin's behaviour smacks  of familiarity with
Dementors, and where would he have gained that?

Greatelderone:
 > Why can't you accept the fact that he  was weak? There are people 
> like him in real life and it'd explain all of his actions.

Kneasy:
Simple. Because I don't believe he is weak. Pettigrew  was weak. He 
doesn't bluster like Sirius, but what does that prove? His demeanor and
civility are more reminiscent of DD than anyone else. Anyone that quiet
and restrained usually has a backbone hidden away ready to show itself
when needed.




From nydede9 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 13 19:49:09 2004
From: nydede9 at yahoo.com (Deanna Benfante)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 11:49:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Vernon so Bad?
In-Reply-To: <c2uadl+ji30@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040313194909.92803.qmail@web60710.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92924

lizette_coleman <Hunta_Girl at hotmail.com> wrote:
--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatelderone" 
<greatelderone at y...> wrote:
> 
> The fact that Vernon pretty much treated Harry like dirt and mentally 
> abused a child put under his care after his parents died just tells 
> you how bad he is. 
> 
> Seems like you need more work to become a devil's advocate. :)

Hunta:
Hi I'm new here, but I was reading through the latest messages and I 
have to say I agree with greatelderone. Vernon is a through and 
through prat. Dudley, there may still be hope for - we'll have to 
wait and see. Petunia is up to more to do with magic than she let's 
on I reckon.



Hi,  I agree - Mr. Dursley is horrible, but I also think Harry's Aunt Petunia is even more horrible - after all, he IS of her flesh and blood.  The son is a product of his parents and, perhaps, there is hope for him - but, somehow, I doubt it.
 
Deanna






From mad_maxime at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 13 20:13:03 2004
From: mad_maxime at hotmail.com (mad_maxime)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 20:13:03 -0000
Subject: Harry's Memory
In-Reply-To: <79.244a9249.2d84a0b9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <c2vq0f+qkct@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92925

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, IAmLordCassandra at a... wrote:

> How is it that Harry couldn't remember Nicolas Flamel, nor that the 
> corridor he ran down with Mr. Weasley on the day of his hearing, 
Nor the word 'Occulmency' (until later on) and a few other things, but
he could remember the 'code' to get into the MoM from the Visitor's
Entrance?  


Max:

Well the only thing I can think of off the top of my head is that it's
a numeric code. 6-2-4-4-2 spells MAGIC. I'd never be able to remember
any of the pin numbers for my debit cards, etc. if I didn't use
numeric code.  





From a_b_desert_king at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 13 21:04:29 2004
From: a_b_desert_king at hotmail.com (a_b_desert_king)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 21:04:29 -0000
Subject: Ginny's development (was: SHIP: Harry and Hermione)
In-Reply-To: <c2dr3j+2fhi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2vt0t+es5u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92926

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hickengruendler" 
<hickengruendler at y...> wrote:
>  
> <belijako at o...> wrote:
> 
<snip>
> Harry also didn't see much of Neville in 
> the previous books, yet there were some tidbits, that suggested to 
> the reader, that Neville is more, than he seems. We see Neville 
> standing up to Crabbe and Goyle and later to the trio, we see Neville 
> trying to warn his friends, that Draco wanted to lure them in the 
> trap, we see Neville admitting, that it was him, who lost the 
> passwords.

<snip>

 Percy is Harry's least favourite Weasley 
> (and with good reason), yet there are scenes, where it's clear, that 
> he does care for his family. I didn't see such scenes with Ginny 
> before OotP. She was q bit more outgoing in the Yule Ball scene, but 
> this didn't come close with the Ginny from OotP, IMO.

Heather says:

Don't forget that in CoS Ginny is possessed by Riddle.  At one point 
she actually tries to tell Harry and Ron what is happening to her, 
but is interrupted by Percy who (being his usual self-absorbed self) 
thinks that she is tattling about him:  
Chapter 16 The Chamber of Secrets:

" Just then, Ginny Weasley came over and sat down next to Ron.  She 
looked tense and nervous, and Harry noticed that her hands were 
twisting in her lap.
 'What's up?' said Ron, helping himself to more porridge.  
 Ginny didn't say anything, but glanced up and down the Gryffindor 
table with a scared look on her face that reminded Harry of someone, 
thought he couldn't think who.
 'Spit it out," said Ron, watching her.
......
 'I've got to tell you something," Ginny mumbled, carefully not 
looking at Harry.
 'What is it?' said Harry.
 Ginny looked as though she couldn't find the right words.
 "What?' said Ron.
 Ginny opened her mouth, but no sound came out.  Harry leaned 
forward and spoke quietly, so that only Ginny and Ron could hear him.
 'Is it something about the Chamber of Secrets? Have you seen 
something? Someone acting oddly?'
 Ginny drew a deep breath and at that precise moment, Percy Weasley 
appeared, looking tired and wan.
 'If you've finished eating, I'll take that seat, Ginny. I'm 
starving, I've only just come off patrol duty.'
 Ginny jumped up as though her chair had just been electrified, gave 
Percy a fleeting, frightened look, and scarpered away.  Percy sat 
down and grabbed a mug from the center of the table.
 'Percy!' said Ron angrily. 'She was just about to tell us something 
important!'
 Halfway through a gulp of tea, Percy choked.
 'What sort of thing?' he said, coughing.
 'I just asked her if she'd seen anything odd, and she started to 
say -'
 'Oh - that - that's nothing to do with the Chamber of Secrets,' 
said Percy at once.
 'How do you know?' said Ron, his eyebrows raised.
 'Well, er, if you must know, Ginny, er, walked in on me the other 
day when i was - well, never mind - the point is, she spotted me 
doing something and I, um, I asked her not to mention it to anybody. 
I must say, I did think she'd keep her word.  It's nothing, really, 
I'd just rather -'"


IMO, Ginny's attempt to talk to Ron and Harry is the act of a 
strong, intelligent witch (although inexperienced) who knows that 
she is in over her head and needs some support from her friends and 
family.  She is mature enough to realize that Percy is not to be 
trusted. We are led to believe that she really is gossiping about 
something that she saw Percy doing, and then the red herring is 
exposed at nearly the last page:

"They were almost at King's Cross when Harry remembered something.
 'Ginny - what did you see Percy doing, that he didn't want you to 
tell anyone?'
 'Oh, that,' said Ginny, giggling. 'Well - Percy's got a 
girlfriend.'"

(But then, I do think that Penny is going to show up again in 6 or 
7 - That is not just a random pairing....).

:)
 
"Heather"







From mad_maxime at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 13 21:07:59 2004
From: mad_maxime at hotmail.com (mad_maxime)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 21:07:59 -0000
Subject: Significant Lily?
In-Reply-To: <c2tvs2+fdlv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2vt7f+kj9h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92927

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snapesmate" <snapesmate at h...>
wrote:

> <snip>
> JKR has already alluded that Harry's eye colour, the need for glasses, 
> (and shape?) are a clue to Harry's ability to defeat Voldemort.
> Curious...

Max:

I'm convinced that if there's any significance to Harry's eyes, it has
to do with either their shape or the power behind them.  It can't have
anything to do with them being green, as 'movie Harry' has blue eyes. 





From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk  Sat Mar 13 21:50:52 2004
From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 21:50:52 -0000
Subject: Is Vernon so Bad?
In-Reply-To: <Law11-OE31lvepUHl0w0002464c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <c2vvns+s4a8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92928


> Christopher:
> Something that has been debated often on this group is            
> the 'dreadfulness' of Vernon Dursley, who is one of               
> Harry's 'carers' after his parents died.  While I quite agree that 
> he is a horrible man, I must note that all we know of him if from 
> Harry's POV. There are a few facts in his favour:
  

> -Vernon provides an excellent and above-average standard of living 
> for his family and even provides Harry with enough food to live.  
> That is a better achievement than most families do in this day and 
> age.
>>>>>>>>

Pip!Squeak:
In the UK? Providing a child with enough food to live on is an 
achievement? Even a homeless family in bed-and-breakfast would 
expect to be able to give their child enough to eat.

Harry would be better off in foster care. They would not only feed 
him, they'd make sure he had decent clothes instead of Dudley's cast-
offs. For example, his social worker would have made sure he had a 
new school uniform (which would cost about 30 GBP if it was the 
standard grey pullover/white shirt/grey trousers).
 
Christopher:
> -Vernon is a caring parent who only wants the best for his son. 

Pip!Squeak:
True.

Christopher:
> Now, to some extent Dudley has been spoiled, but in OOP, he has 
improved himself enormously.  Vernon was right when he said 
that 'Smeltings' would be the making of him, although this was 
partly against the wishes of his mother, who insisted that he was 
only 'big-boned'.
>>>>  

Pip!Squeak:
So Dudley is better off at school than at home? His home life is so 
bad for him that his teachers take better care of him than his 
loving parents? It's hardly a point in Vernon's favour.

Christopher:
> -Vernon is concerned enough about his family that he is willing to 
throw Harry out on the street (which would offer the chance of 
punishment, whether Muggle child protection services, or 
Dumbledore), in order that Voldemort might look for him elsewhere 
and ignore the merely Muggle Dursleys'.  He must know (from Lily and 
James' deaths if nothing else) that the wizarding world can kill.
>>>>>>>>>

Pip!Squeak:
So, basically, he's willing to kill a child to protect his family. 
He's willing to throw Harry out to his death, so long as it's not 
him or his. Sorry, but I would have felt a lot more respect for 
Vernon if he'd at least said 'get in touch with some of your 
wizarding friends and find someone to take you!' before he'd started 
saying he didn't want Harry in the house. But he doesn't. He wants a 
fifteen year old boy out, with no thought about where he will live, 
how he will make a living, whether he will live once Voldemort 
starts looking for him.
  
> Christopher:
> -Vernon clearly loves his wife, enough to comply with her request 
to keep Harry even after the Dementor attack.
> >>>>>>

Pip!Squeak:
True. I have no doubt that Vernon and Petunia love each other.
 
> Christopher:
> Yes, Vernon treats Harry in a dreadful manner, but is that not 
understandable?  Harry represents a clear and present danger to his 
family - like standing next to an unexploded bomb - both by 
attracting attention from Voldemort and by acts of underage, 
uncontrolled, magic.  Further, Harry is not directly related to 
Vernon, stronger men than he would be unhappy about providing for 
such a child.  Its not 'right', but it is understandable.  
> >>>

Pip!Squeak:
Harry is not directly related to *Vernon*, but he is directly 
related to both Vernon's wife and Vernon's son. If nothing else, 
Vernon's treatment of Harry has probably had an indirect effect on 
Dudley - who must wonder what might happen to him if he ever fell 
out of his father's favour. Vernon's treatment of Harry has also 
deprived Dudley of a normal sibling relationship (which Harry and 
Dudley *would* have had, if Harry had been treated as a regular 
member of the family).

Put it this way - if James had been black, instead of white, and 
Vernon's problem had been that his nephew 'attracted attention' by 
being a black child in a white family - would that be 
understandable? Harry's problem is that his father is a wizard and 
he takes after him. In other words, Vernon judges him by his blood. 
His race. His 'oddness' in that smug, suburban, white, middle-class 
family. And instead of seeing the threat to Harry as a danger that 
*Harry* should be protected from, he sees the threat to Harry as a 
threat to him and his. It's entirely selfish, and takes no account 
of the risk to a child who has done absolutely nothing to deserve 
it - except by being born.
 
> Christopher:
> So, is Vernon so bad?

Pip!Squeak:
I'm afraid so. Petunia, bless her, is a better prospect. She has 
shown faint signs of caring for Harry, even if she shows no love. 
It's usually Petunia who tries to make sure Harry has some food, 
some clothes, goes to school and stays where he's safe. Unlike 
Vernon, she doesn't seem to want Harry *dead*, even if she prefers 
him out of her sight.

Pip!Squeak




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 13 22:14:50 2004
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 22:14:50 -0000
Subject: Theory: Inflation ...wizard economy- Correction & Addition
In-Reply-To: <c2urvf+t9o3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3014q+qrsk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92929

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
 
> bboy_mn:
> 
> 
> Let's start with some perspective on wizard's money
> 
> 29 Knuts = 1 Sickle
> 17 Sickles = 1 Galleon
> 
> Per JKR's interview-
> 
> 1 Galleon = 5 Pounds Stirling
> 
> for ease of use-
> *** 1 Pound Stirling = $7.50

bboy_mn:

*** CORRECTION: *** (Thanks to TipGardener for pointing that out)

1 Galleon = 5 Pounds Stirling = US$7.50

1 Pound Stirling (for ease of math) = US$1.50


> 
> 1 Knut = 1.5? US Cents ($.015)
> 1 Sickle = 44? US Cents ($.44)
> 
>
> 
> So, 
> 
> 1 wand = G10 = ?50 = $75
> ... Omnioculars (?50 or $75).
> 
> ...edited...
> 
> 1 Bottle Butter Beer @ Hog's Head in OotP = 2 Sickles = $.88
> 1 New Quill = 15S + 5K = $6.675
> 1 Basic Fireworks Blaze Box (OoP) = G5 = $37.50
> 1 Deflagration Deluxe (OoP) = G20 = $150.00
> Pre-orders for Skiving Snack Boxes about G26 = $195.00
> 1 Headless Hat (OoP) = G2 = $15.00
> (Can anyone think of anything else that we know the price of?)
> 

bboy_mn:

ADDITION:
One trip on the Knight Bus = 11 Sickles = US$4.84

Anything else in the books that we know the price of? Might be nice to
collect them all together in one spot, could help lend some perspective.

Thanks to Madame Snape (Sherrie) for pointing out that everything at
an event like the Quidditch World Cup would be inflated. Likely, if
you could by one, a 2 Sickle ($.88) bottle of Butter Beer would cost
between 6 and 10 Sickles (US$2.64 to US$4.40).

Sorry for the short post.

bboy_mn





From jferer at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 13 22:18:25 2004
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 22:18:25 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Holding the Tiger's Tail
In-Reply-To: <c2vi3a+gqc5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c301bh+c42a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92930

Casmir: "I have to say, I am more of a H/H believer, though JKR did
say they were always intended to be just friends. I always thought
Ginny and Harry would be. I really like Ginny, she's resourceful,
adventurous, and has a lot of nerve!"

Where did JKR say that?  She did say that Harry and Hermione were
platonic friends, but she said it before the publication of GoF, and
it was true ? at the time. I'm not aware she ever went nearly as far
as what you said.

That's our Ginny, no mistake.

Jim Ferer




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 13 22:41:48 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 22:41:48 -0000
Subject: Faithful servant debate/Total Death eaters
In-Reply-To: <c2s1qd+kqe6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c302nc+i1nb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92931

Ms Mo Me wrote:
If my math is correct, Voldemort only mentions the two
who are still in Azkaban (the Lestranges). Yet 10
escape, and weren't there more than just 10 people
convicted and sentenced to life???
So, it doesn't add up, or does it?  Shouldn't there be more people
missing in the circle? 
> 
"greatelderone" 
I think [of] the 10 in Azakaban, only the Lestranges held the most 
interest since Bellatrix was something of a protege of his and they 
along with Crouch were the only ones that attempted to find him after
he got slagged by his own AK.

Carol:
I more or less agree with this statement, but I wonder why he
mentioned only two of the three Lestranges and ignores Rabastan. Also,
I wonder why he didn't stand with his brother and sister-in-law in the
circle. (?)

 
<snip>
Ms Mo Me:
And, shouldn't there be more DE prisoners still in
Azkaban in OotP (I am assuming they all didn't escape
in OotP) But, then again, back to GoF, that would mean
there would have to be more than the 6 missing plus
the 2 empty spots of the Lestranges (still in prison)
(8 total).  Unless LV forgot to mention some spots of
the others still in Azkaban.
> 
"greatelderone" 
> I think he just didn't bother mentioning people like Mulciber, 
> Rookwood and Dolohov. Snape and Karakoff were mentioned since they 
> had betrayed him and Crouch was mentioned since he had stayed loyal 
> like the Lestranges.
> 
> Most of the big ones mentioned in the pensieve have all been broken 
> out in OOTP. Rookwood, Mucliber, Dolohov and the three Lestranges. I 
> don't think any of them in Azkaban would be of significance probably 
> just the minor ones of no use.


Carol:
Let's try to figure this out. Setting aside Snape, Crouch, and
Karkaroff, we have:

Three dead in LV's service: Evan Rosier, Wilkes, and (?)

Ten in Azkaban at the time of the graveyard scene: Antonin Dolohov,
Mulciber, Rookwood, Travers (who helped murder the McKinnons), the
three Lestranges, (possibly) Jugson, who shows up for the first time
at the MoM, and two more I can't identify at the moment.

Seven named by LV as being present in the graveyard : Malfoy, Nott,
Macnair, Avery, Crabbe, Goyle, and of course Wormtail.

Of the fifteen actually named,eleven--Malfoy, Nott, Jugson, Rodolphus
and Rabastan Lestrange, Crabbe, Dolohov, Macnair, Avery, Rookwood, and
Mulciber--were at the MoM and presumably arrested (though Nott and one
other could be in St. Mungo's). That leaves Goyle, Bellatrix,
Wormtail, and probably Travers still at large. (Travers seems to be
the only previously named prisoner who wasn't at the MoM, but I'm
assuming that he did escape and is at large.) The two unnamed escapees
should probably be added in, bringing LV's current contingent of Death
Eaters to six.

I agree with Ms Mo Me that there should be more prisoners still in
Azkaban and many more gaps than the ones LV mentioned. There must also
have been quite a few people whom he walked by and didn't name,
possibly to keep their identity secret. Harry indicates at one point
that there were about thirty in the graveyard, and, if so, some of the
unnamed two dozen or so should also still be at large. But what
happened to all the others?

I have a new theory regarding the 400 mentioned by Lupin in OoP. A lot
of them died or were arrested before LV was vaporized. That would
explain why LV states that only three died in his service: Those three
died fighting the aurors after LV disappeared, so in his view they
deserve special mention for doing so. But still, a very large number
would have had to be killed or imprisoned before LV's defeat at
Godric's Hollow to bring the roughly 46 I can account for up to the
400 he supposedly had at his peak. And if he really was down to 46 at
that time, maybe the attack on the Potters was an act of desperation
rather than the stroke that was supposed to win the war, but that
isn't at all the impression I've received from the books.

Carol, who has posted similar thoughts before but hasn't yet received
an explanation she finds satisfactory




From jferer at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 13 22:41:50 2004
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 22:41:50 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Holding the Tiger's Tail
In-Reply-To: <9992132.20040313104320@msn.com>
Message-ID: <c302ne+345d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92932

Jim (me):" I think Ron's an ordinary guy ? a good ordinary guy ? who
wants a wife  he can come home to, talk to, and bring up a family
with. That's  perfectly fine if that's what his wife wants, too, but
that's not for  Hermione. 

Susanne: "Uh, frankly, how do you know that's what Ron wants or needs?"

Of course I don't know, but I believe it.  He's always the follower in
the adventures, not the principal actor, and he always acts in the way
an ordinary person would, except that he finds himself in
extraordinary circumstances and sticks by his friends.  Ron always
seems uneasy with Hermione's constant state of action, and she's not
going to stop.

I agree with you Ron isn't hurtful at all, at least intentionally. 
He's not more fallible than the rest of us, and Hermione does give back.

Susanne:"For some reason, Hermione is seen by many readers as this
perfect person, who "deserves" the "best" guy, which is, of course,
Harry. "

It's not a question of deserts with me; I've said before why I think
Harry and Hermione are so well suited to each other.  They all deserve
to be happy. It's not The Hero Gets the Girl to me, either; Hermione's
not some passive damsel waiting to be won.

And why is Harry the "best" guy, anyway?  He's likely to be severely
damaged goods by the time this is over, physically, emotionally and
psychologically hammered, tortured, maybe difficult ? he was pretty
unlikable for large portions of OotP ? maybe a young woman would be
better off with Ron.

Jim Ferer




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 13 23:05:37 2004
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 23:05:37 -0000
Subject: Murdering Voldemort (was: What would you think if.....)
In-Reply-To: <c2v6kh+inho@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c30441+p9q8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92933

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "davewitley" <dfrankiswork at n...>
wrote:
> Jim Ferer wrote:
> 
> > Murder is "The unlawful killing of one human by another,
> > especially with premeditated malice."
> > 
> > Killing Voldemort cannot be murder no matter how Harry does it.  
> > If Harry could kill Voldemort with an AK, it would be the only 
> > right thing to do to save lives.  


> Dave replied:
> 
> I'm not convinced of the value of the above definition, unless 
> the 'lawful' part can be explained - ...  Also the word 'especially'
> sits uneasily in a definition: if an unlawful killing happens 
> without premeditated malice, is that murder or not? Suppose it 
> premeditated but not malicious (mercy killing?), or malicious but 
> not premeditated, and so on?
> 

bboy_mn:

I notice from your profile that you are from the UK. I know UK law
views murder differently than we do in the USA. Although, I confess I
am not very knowledgable on the distinctions.

In the USA, we recognise various degrees of murder; first degree,
second degree, third degree, premeditated, manslaughter, negligent
homicide, accidental homicide, special circumstances, etc....

In addition, we must note that if you kill someone in a clear and
unquestionable act of self-defense, you will not likely be prosecuted.
However, if there is even the slightest uncertainty, in all likelihood
you would be charged and prosecuted for some type of murder, and given
a chance to prove that it truly was self-defense.

Also, as well as self-defense, acts of war, that is, killing the enemy
in wartime, is not usually prosecuted unless there is a suspicion of
'crimes against humanity'. 


>Dave continues:
>
> ... The reason for this post is that, whatever one's RL definition 
> of murder, I'm pretty sure that for Harry to kill Voldemort in any 
> situation other than immediate self-defence *would* be regarded as
> murder *BY HARRY*, and, I think, by the narrative voice of the 
> story.  
> 

bboy_mn:
Very crucial point you've made here. Note my emphasis on the words 'BY
HARRY' in your statement above. Voldemort has killed Harry parents and
has tried to kill Harry several times. In all likelihood, anytime
Harry and Voldemort are in the same place at the same time, Harry life
is extremely at risk. 

So, Harry would be quite justified, in my book, if he killed or
attempted to kill Voldemort on sight without waiting for a direct
attack by Voldemort. I think most courts would recognise the extreme
circumstances and find this pro-active preemptive strike as justified.

Harry already knows all this; he knows Voldemort will try to kill him
at every opportunity, and Voldemort won't wait for a fair and even
duel. While Harry knows this, by his own words, he sees what he must
do as murder. Harry is not the kind of guy who strikes first even
knowing it is justified. He is not the kind of person who treat a
human life, any human life, as something trivial. 

I think to have to or be force by circumstances to kill someone, would
be an act that would haunt Harry for the rest of his life. That's part
of what makes him one of the good guys. 


> Dave concludes:
>
> For myself, I think that's one of Harry's finest moments (Shrieking
> Shack; Harry spares Pettigrew), because he recognises that the 
> important consequences of an act are those that follow for the 
> perpetrator: to quote a different canon, "it is not what goes into 
> the mouth that defiles a man".
> 
> David

bboy_mn:
Indeed one of Harry finest moments. I sincerely hope that JKR can find
a way to resolve the story without Harry having to directly kill
Voldemort. I desperately hope she can pull forth some surprise ending,
a possibility that none of us had considered, that spares Harry from
what now appears to be his fate. That's a lot to put on a boy who has
already suffered so much.

Just a few thoughts.

bboy_mn






From rredordead at aol.com  Sat Mar 13 23:20:36 2004
From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 23:20:36 -0000
Subject: what are the criteria for becoming a Death Eater??? and is harry really a half-blood?
In-Reply-To: <c2s9e7+10de5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c30504+9v1p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92934

 > ~kashelkar wrote:
> It really seems weird that during the fight between the DA members 
> and death eaters towards the end of OOP, the DEs don't demonstrate 
> any kind of special (Dark) ability. Is just knowledge of 
>unforgivable curses (apart from worshipping Voldy) enough criteria 
>for becoming DE?? Bella tells Harry "....I've learned the dark arts 
>from Dark Lord himself..." What are these dark arts? How come she 
>doesn't use them while in combat with the DA members?? How come the 
>knowledge levels of the most feared DEs are just the same as the 5th 
>year students at Hogwarts (which doesn't preach dark arts.)???
> On a different subject

>Harry was born to a witch and a wizard (both from the magical 
>community), so isn't he a pure-blood? I think to be a half-blood 
>like Voldy), one of the parents has to be non-magic person.


Mandy here:
We don't actually know what spells were thrown by the DE at the Order 
members during their individual duels in the battle.  I have assumed 
Dark Spells were uses and members of the Order, and the Aurors, (like 
Tonks who was too young to be in the Order the first time around) are 
trained in the defense of them.  

It still doesn't answer the question of why the DE didn't use Dark 
Spells against the Kids, though and I was disappointed in how easily 
the kids were able to fight, and win against the DE in OotP.  It 
doesn't make the DE appear to be much of a force to be reckoned with 
at all.  My only fault with JKR's writing is the bad guys are often, 
when it comes down to actually fighting and killing, weak and easily 
defeated by 15 year olds.

The are many posts on Harry's half blood status on this site if you 
search back through the archives.

Cheers Mandy







From rredordead at aol.com  Sat Mar 13 23:53:14 2004
From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 23:53:14 -0000
Subject: Is Remus really Lupin?   Was: Minerva McGonagall & The SS
In-Reply-To: <c2t3ao+qdak@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c306ta+4ph3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92935


> > LizVega:
<very large snip> 
> And, who is this R.J.H. King anyway? And, 
> does this mean that none of the other marauders played Quidditch 
> with James? R.J- Remus John? 


Mandy here:
There has been speculation about Remus Lupin's name in the past. 
Speculation about whether his parents gave him such a wolfish name at 
birth and thus perversely predicting the child's fate, or did he 
assume that name after he received the bite?  

We all know JKR named Remus J. Lupin, and she loves to play 
beautifully with the names of the characters in her stories. Remus 
(and Romulus, the founder of Rome) were brought up from birth by a 
she-wolf, and Lupin being the French word for wolf.  But, within the 
context of the story and the WW, I'd be more inclinded to believe 
Remus J. Lupin is the characters birth name if he was born a 
Werewolf, which he wasn't.  So why would his parents give him a name 
like that when they would have had no idea of his future, 
unfortunate, experience with Lycanthropy?  

Could Remus have possibly adopted the last name `Lupin' thinking he 
would protect his family's pride when he started Hogwarts? Is 
the 'Lupin' family really named King? 

Just some thoughts.

Cheers, Mandy  






From christophernuttall at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 13 23:54:18 2004
From: christophernuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 23:54:18 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why didn't Voldy tip off the ministry about break-in at MoM...
References: <20040313113513.10927.qmail@web13423.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BAY16-DAV36bXmdMJOt00003768@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92936

Consider: what if Fudge was a good, but misguided person?  Voldy might expect him to grap and jail harry, but he might also believe harry, at least to the extent of placing him somewhere Voldy could not get at him.  Further, think how vital it is for NO ONE to know about the propacy; if everyone knows that its Harry or Voldemort, they'll go for Harry.  

Chris

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 14 00:00:46 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 00:00:46 -0000
Subject: Snape and the MOM
In-Reply-To: <c2ro8l+10uph@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c307be+ciuj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92937

Carol wrote:> <snip>
The only "evidence" I know of is that Wormtail told LV that Sirius 
was
an animagus and Malfoy told Snape that he saw Sirius in dog form at
Platform 9 3/4. That doesn't necessarily indicate that LV and Malfoy
know that Snape is in the Order. And I don't think Kreacher could 
have
told Narcissa because he was under orders not to reveal the Order's
secrets, which would certainly include its membership.

Lynnette: 
Is there actually canon stating Snape is still a DE?  I mean, his 
ability to discover what Voldemort is saying to his followers could 
be because of something else...  his legilimancy skills (used on best 
bud Lucius perhaps?) Possibly being an unregistered animagus 
himself?  <snip> what if he has batlike chracteristics because he has
the animagus form of a bat?  Sirius had a few doglike characteristics, 
ie. his bark like laugh, etc.  


Hi, Lynnette. I certainly didn't mean to imply that *I* think he's
still a DE, but I do think he's convincec Lucius Malfoy that he's
still loyal to LV and that Malfoy is (was) his contact ("Yes, Potter,
it's my job to find out what the Dark Lord is saying to his Death
Eaters"--paraphrased from OoP). What I was asking is whether Malfoy
and LV know that Snape is a member of the Order of the Phoenix. I
don't think they do.

I don't think Snape is an animagus or he wouldn't have needed Harry's
invisibility cloak in PoA. He could have just flown into the shrieking
Shack as a bat. I'm also not sure that he has *legilmency* skills
(casting the spell on Harry is different from trying to read Malfoy's
mind by looking into his eyes). I think he's just maintained his
connections and his credibility with Lucius, whose thinking he
understands quite well--better, I hope, than Lucius understands his.
*Occlumency,* however, can help Snape disguise his emotions and lie
convincingly not only to LV if he has to face him directly (I'm not
convinced that he does) but to someone like Malfoy, who has known him
for a long time and could probably read his expression if he didn't
keep both it and his thoughts under firm control. (I still think that
Malfoy's suspicions as to where Snape's loyalties really lie may be
aroused now after what happened at the MoM. I just hope that Malfoy
stays in Azkaban during Book 6 so we don't have to worry about him
seeking revenge against Snape until Book 7.)

BTW, if the identity of Lupin, Tonks, Shacklebolt, and Moody as Order
members was not previously known to LV, he knows it now because
Bellatrix has told him. That increases their danger, too.

Carol




From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 14 00:19:41 2004
From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 00:19:41 -0000
Subject: Why didn't Voldy tip off the ministry about break-in at MoM...
In-Reply-To: <20040313113513.10927.qmail@web13423.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c308et+l4d7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92938

<big snip>

Kashelkar replies:
> 
> 
> As regards the plan of Voldy, I believe it is 1) to kill Harry, and 2) to rule the world 
>(Conquer the Death). And getting the prophecy is just a step towards it. By tipping off 
the 
>MoM about the break-in, Voldy shall definitely achieve Harry's expulsion from Hogwarts. 
>And under given situation, I won't be wrong if I expect Fudge to put Harry in Azkaban. If 
>this can be achieved, then the prophecy thing doesn't matter, does it??

Antosha:
DD makes it clear that the once and future Tom has gotten a bit wise in his old age--he 
seems to have realized that he CAN'T kill Harry--unless it is accord with the prophecy. 
Therefore, he has become obsessed with obtaining the prophecy--until the terms of his 
future are clear to him, he cannot force that future into fruition; he can't kill Harry, and 
(since the part of the prophecy of which he was informed stated that Harry--or Neville--
had it in his power to destroy LV) he can never rest secure in the knowledge that he has 
outflown death until that first objective is reliably achieved.




From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Sun Mar 14 00:22:50 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 00:22:50 -0000
Subject: Apparating into the Ministry...
In-Reply-To: <20040313091600.45495.qmail@web13426.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c308kq+bpsi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92939

Snip of previous posts about apparation into the MoM
> Kashelkar's reply:
> 
> It's possible that the only place where apparation/disapparation is 
possible within MoM is the atrium, however, in the scene, when Harry 
lifts the prophecy from the stand, the DEs start apparating all 
around him, how's this possible??? Doesn't this indicate that, it's 
possible to apparate inside the DoM, that too in the hall of 
prophecies??

Sue replies:
The actual wording in the book is:
"Black shapes were emerging out of thin air all around them, blocking 
their way left and right;"  OotP US pg. 781

There is no mention of a popping noise and the word emerging seems to 
connotate that they were stepping out from underneath/behind 
something.  It is quite possible they were using one or more 
invisibility cloaks to conceal themselves.  They could have even 
disillusioned themselves so that they blended perfectly with their 
surroundings and could not be seen. 

JKR has made it so very clear that when someone apparates they make a 
sound either loud or soft, depending on the power of the wizard.  The 
only two people we know of who do *not* make a sound are Dumbledore 
and Voldemort, and they are in a class by themselves.

Sue, who wonders after writing this post if Disillusion is what DD 
was talking about when he told Harry he did not need a cloak to 
become invisible.




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 14 00:24:19 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 00:24:19 -0000
Subject: The Strange Case of the Altered Spelling
In-Reply-To: <c2rpor+esfr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c308nj+8cp3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92940

Carol:
> > For the record, it *ought* to be "Sibyl(l)" to conform with "sibyl"
> > (prophetess) unless the British spelling of that word differs from 
> the
> > American one. (I've recently been told that the British spelling of
> > "artifact" is "artefact," which to my eyes still looks like a typo.)
> 
> 
> Geoff:
> Can I just refer you back to the etymological notes on the name Sybil 
> which I posted in message 92650?

Carol:
I saw that, thanks. Very interesting, but you were referring to the
name and I'm wondering about the British dictionary spelling of the
common noun (spelled "sibyl" in American English). Is it "sybil" in
British English? If so, that would explain the "Sybill" spelling in
the British edition. (And while I'm at it, *is* "artefact" the correct
British spelling or is it just an error?)

Geoff: 
Just in passing, spellings like color, honor, center and the rather 
mixed use of z instead of s look odd to UK eyes.....

Carol:
Blame Noah Webster for that one! He was the first--and last--American
to put through a successful spelling reform, primarily because his was
the first dictionary printed in America. (Apologies to the List Elves
for straying OT.)

<snip my comments on printing history>
> 
> Geoff:
> The Bloomsbury UK editions seem to lack the second set of data. My 
> hardback GOF, for example, lists 10 9 8 7 6.

So it's the sixth printing, but it's the year that's important if
we're going to determine which is the definitive reading for Hagrid's
words in PS/SS chapter one. Yours is 1999, I believe?

Carol




From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Sun Mar 14 00:33:33 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 00:33:33 -0000
Subject: Snape and the MOM  (Was: Snape the coward or the one left forever?
In-Reply-To: <c2ul3b+qfsi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3098t+otvt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92941

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "earendil_fr" 
<earendil_fr at y...> wrote:
> Sue wrote:
> > No doubt this is true.  *Everyone* knew Lucius Malfoy was under 
the 
> > Imperius Curse too ;).  The question was in regard to Snape being 
a 
> > member of the Order not about his denouncing Voldemort.  
Voldemort is 
> > very aware that everyone in the circle around him at the 
graveyard 
> > had denounced him or they would be in Azkaban, which is, of 
course, 
> > the reason the people in Azkaban would be so well rewarded when 
they 
> > were freed.  The problem for Snape is that he also (according to 
DD) 
> > turned spy and everyone in the room knew that as well.  Which is 
why 
> > so many of us think he is the one Voldemort "believed" had left 
him 
> > forever.
> 
> Or... Snape was supposed to be doing some spying for Voldemort as 
> well. Voldemort would know his being a spy and a member of the 
> Order, and use him as a double spy to get information from the 
> Order... So Dumbledore's words at the trial wouldn't come as a 
shock.
> 
> Which side Snape was really on at that time, and who he gave real 
> information about the enemy, could also be debated, since we only 
> have Dumbledore's word that he was on the Order's side.
> 
> This could also be some kind of Slytherin behaviour from Snape... 
> Rooting for both sides and in the end pretend he had always been on 
> the side of the winning ones, whoever they were...
> 
> Earendil.

Yes exactly!  As a firm fence sitter where Snape is concerned, it 
would not surprise me if Snape was trying to play two sides against 
the middle so he could join the winner in the end.  The only problem 
I see with this is that both of the men he is trying to convince are 
brilliant,  the hotter the war the more difficult it will be for any 
double agent to stay true to both sides without incriminating 
him/herself to one of them.

All we know for sure is that DD believes Snapes story.  Obviously 
Voldemort believed Snape too.  I think book 6 will have us 
*convinced* one way and then turn it around at the end of book 7.  

Bottom line, we'll know when we know.

"This ones's in two minds," said Fred...."Blimey, what a waste of 
parchment..." :)
Sue




From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Sun Mar 14 00:43:40 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 00:43:40 -0000
Subject: Stopper in Death
In-Reply-To: <c2vcfb+99ov@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c309rs+isfa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92942

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_b_desert_king" 
<a_b_desert_king at h...> wrote:
> > Gadfly McLellyn writes:
> > 
> > see my post 79500 on Sept 1st, 2003 also, but here is a brief 
version:
> > 
> > The reason why Dumbledore trusts Snape and Snape hates Harry is 
that 
> > Snape brewed up some way for the AK curse to fail when it hit 
Harry, 
> > but Harry gets all the credit and fame for this.  So maybe Snape 
> > already did stopper death - Harry's death by Voldemort.  It 
explains 
> > why Dumbledore trusts him so much, and why Snape resents Harry's 
fame 
> > because it should be Snape's fame.  But Snape can't let the DE's 
know 
> > this because then he would be number one target for the DE's to 
> > murder.  
> 
> 
> Heather writes:
> 
>snip 
> In GoF, Snape threatens Harry with poisoning to 'test his 
antidote', 
> but then Harry is taken away for a photo shoot (interruptions, 
> interruptions...).  Maybe he threatens Harry (and not anyone else) 
> because he knows Harry can't be poisoned....
> 
> Just a thought....:)

Two words: Basilisk fang.  In the end of CoS Harry is most definitely 
poisoned by the basilisk and would have died had it not been for the 
presence of Fawks and his wonderful tears.

Interesting idea though.
Sue





From kreneeb at hotmail.com  Sun Mar 14 00:48:32 2004
From: kreneeb at hotmail.com (hermionekitten9)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 00:48:32 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Holding the Tiger's Tail
Message-ID: <c30a50+rmle@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92943

SUSANNE: lot seems to depend on how the reader feels about
relationships. If they see verbal sparring as all around
negative, and have never seen that it can be just as loving
as the quiet, on the surface always getting along,
relationships. Verbal sparring can be a lot of fun, if it is 
tempered bylove... 

NEIL: Make a list of the good and bad qualities of Harry, Ron, 
Hermione, Luna,Ginny, Draco, Neville and any others that you can 
think of and then compare them. The only person worse for Hermione 
than Ron is Draco.

JIM: Harry and Hermione are converging all the
time, working, thinking and acting together. Ron, for all his
valuable friendship and loyalty, seems to be along for the ride.


ME: I don't think that ron is worse for hermioine then draco.
It's like what susanne says, Ron and Hermione sparring is
tempered by a deep friendship. Ron states what he believes in; He 
never belittles her by calling her nasty names. I have grown up in a 
house where I not only listened to my parents argue everyday I 
joined in. So to me the way that Harry and Hermione interact seems 
negative to me, its just not what I'm used to. I see Harry always 
backing off, never telling hermione to leave him be, never sticking 
up for what he believes in; to me it's almost like he doesn't
care. Ron and Hermione have the relationship that I can relate to. I 
see ron expressing himself, inserting his ideas and believes going 
head to head with Hermione and never backing down. I see that 
as "converging, working, thinking and acting together" though I do 
agree with Jim that the poor boy does seem to be "along for the 
ride" but, I also think that Ron will surprise us all in the up 
coming books. Do something that will make ours, and maybe 
Hermione's, jaws drop.

kitten,
who can't wait until her husband comes home so they can continue 
their argument on whether Martha Stewart deserved to get jail time.







From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 14 00:58:20 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 00:58:20 -0000
Subject: Need Quote: Help with Sirius's Motorcyle - More
In-Reply-To: <40520C6A.6240.2D6917@localhost>
Message-ID: <c30anc+nskf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92944

On 12 Mar 2004 at 7:35, justcarol67 wrote:
 
Shaun, what are the other numbers? 0 1 2 3 4/0 or something like that?
the smallest number is the year of publication, which ought to be 2000
based on what you've said.
 
I've just put up a scan of the publication page at 
http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/hpcrtm.gif
 
All I can say is that the trademark information indicates the 
edition must be from 2000 at the earliest - beyond that, I'm not 
sure. I think those numbers at the bottom relate to the printing 
from something I read years ago - but I don't know exactly how to 
read them.


Thanks, Shaun. Lovely scan! Unfortunately, there's no indication of
the printing date, but those other numbers indicate that yours is the
26th printing. And you do have the "I'll be giving Sirius his bike
back" reading, correct? If someone has an earlier printing of the same
edition with the other reading, I think we can safely deduce that the
change was made at JKR's request. An editor couldn't make a change in
the wording several years into the printing process.

(Just as an aside, the somewhat larger change involving the order of
the spells in "Priori Incantatem" in "Goblet of Fire" apparently
started a new round of printing. My Scholastic paperback, which has
the correction, was printed in 2002 (copyright 2000) yet it's a first
printing. The change to the chapter wasn't significant enough to make
it a new edition, but you can still tell from the publication data
that a change was made because the printings start over again with
"1." I don't see anything similar in the information I've read
regarding "Philosopher's Stone," but maybe British printing practices
differ from American ones and it's not possible to make a definitive
pronouncement from the printing history.)

But still, it seems safe  to conclude that yours is the corrected
version, that JKR herself made the correction (who else would have
chosen those words or thought it necessary), and that it was important
enough that she wanted it to go into the American edition, too. Or
have you arrived at a different conclusion?

Carol, who hopes we haven't gotten so bogged down in details that
we've forgotten the original point.




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 14 01:17:35 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 01:17:35 -0000
Subject: Faithful servant debate/Total Death eaters
In-Reply-To: <c2s0p6+2ks8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c30brf+ia10@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92945

-<psychobirdgirl at y...> wrote:
> I think maybe that the ones in the graveyard are referred to as the 
> inner circle, so while there may be more in Azkaban and some 
> unmentioned escapees, they would not have necessarily been in the 
> graveyard, which seemed invitaion only ,for the best of the worst to 
> see thier lord rise again to power, in which those invited could 
> share.
> 
> psychobirdgirl


When LV examines Wormtail's Dark Mark in the graveyard, which is now
vividly red, he says, "They will all have noticed it. . . . and now we
shall see. . . . now we shall know." Then he touches it, summoning the
Death Eaters. "How many will be brave enough to return when they feel
it? And how many will be foolish enough to stay away?" (GoF, Am. ed.
645). Assuming that every Death Eater has the Dark Mark, it looks to
me as if they have all been summoned. At any rate, if they have the
mark, they're not so much "invited" as commanded to obey the summons. 

To disobey it through cowardice (as Karkaroff did) was to deserve
punishment in Voldemort's view; to disobey it on principle (as Snape
did) was to deserve death. But I've already said more than enough on
that topic.

Carol, who wonders what's going to happen to Karkaroff (and, of
course, to Snape)




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sun Mar 14 01:20:21 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 01:20:21 -0000
Subject: Significant Lily?
In-Reply-To: <c2s6vb+7vl8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c30c0l+gbn0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92946

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mooseming" <jo.sturgess at b...> 
wrote:
> Thanks Carol for this link in your post #92778, I've never seen this
> interview before.
> 
> http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/1999/1099-
connectiontrans\
> c.html
> 
>  I was intrigued by the following JKR statement:
> 
> "Now the important thing about Harry's mother, the really, really
> significant thing, you're going to find out in 2 parts. You'll find
> out a lot more about her in Book 5, or you'll find out something 
very
> significant about her in Book 5, then you'll find out something
> incredibly important about her in Book 7. But I can't tell you what
> those things are so I'm sorry, but yes, you will find out more about
> her because both of them are very important in what Harry ends up
> having to do."
> 
> What on earth was the significant thing in book 5? How can anything 
we
> learnt about Lily in OotP influence what Harry has to do?
> 


Potioncat:
I'm using an old, unfamiliar computer and may have trouble responding 
properly, so I apologize for typos, etc.

We also learn that her maiden name is Evans. In the same book that 
introduces us too briefly to Mark Evans who lives near Harry.  And in 
the same book where evanesco (EVANesco) makes something disappear.

Potioncat, who can't wait to get back to her own computer and make 
more intelligent replies (hopefully).





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 14 01:40:52 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 01:40:52 -0000
Subject: On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
In-Reply-To: <c2s9mm+jimq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c30d74+31tn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92947

Carol wrote:
Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding this part of your post. No one from
the WW has met the Dursleys face to face? What about Hagrid in SS/PS
and Mr. Weasley, Ron, and the twins in PoA, not to mention the MoM
employees who did a memory charm on Aunt Marge? Or are you talking
about Dumbledore himself and the original arrangement involving Harry?
(There's also Mrs. Figg, who could have communicated information to
Petunia regarding Harry that Vernon doesn't know about.)
 
Kneasy:
You have misunderstood, but I  forgive you.

The point at discussion was how the Dursleys could negotiate a
handling fee'  for looking after Harry after he had been dumped on the
front step.
What (if anything) did the Dursleys get for looking after Harry and
how, during Harry's infancy could they renegotiate the agreement or
even try a little discreet blackmail if they weren't satisfied.
 
The  canon suggests that no-one went near them for 10 years or so.
They apparently had no knowledge of Arabella's involvement with DD. In
any case, they would not be inclined to talk to neighbours about the
family shame.
 
DD could contact them at any time but so far as we are aware, there
were no arrangements for the Dursleys to initiate a correspondence.

Carol:
Thanks for the explanation. My feeling (it's not worthy of a reasoned
argument) is that Petunia knows more than she lets on to Vernon. After
all, she's frequently in the house alone and could easily conceal an
occasional letter to Dumbledore from him: "Remember my last!" could
refer to a much more recent letter than the one left with Harry on the
doorstep. I also think that she knows Mrs. Figg is a Squib with
connections to the WW and that it was Dumbledore who insisted on
having Mrs. Figg watch Harry when the Dursleys couldn't or wouldn't.
Since Petunia doesn't have an owl to carry her letters, she'd have to
rely on Mrs. Figg to send them. (If Squibs can communicate with cats,
why not with owls?)

As for the "handling fee," the idea of mutual protection (you take
care of Harry, we'll protect you and your family when things get ugly)
makes most sense to me. The implication would be that if they didn't
protect Harry, their fate would resemble James' and Lily's. As I said,
that's just what I think now based on what I know of the characters
involved. I seriously doubt that any money is involved, much less (as
others on this board have suggested) that Dudley could somehow be a
magical child whose magic is being squelched.

Carol




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 14 02:05:13 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 02:05:13 -0000
Subject: Significant Lily?
In-Reply-To: <c2sbl4+f1cv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c30ekp+iamv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92948

Catherine McK:
<snip> My theory is that we did find out something very 
> significant/incredibly important about Lily in book. We learned that 
> she was a member of a secret society dedicated to fighting the Dark 
> Lord. We learned that she had actively defied him three times and 
> lived to tell the tale. We learned that because of this her son was
a > possible subject of a prophecy, which is why Voldemort sought to 
> destroy her and she thereby got caught in the crossfire and was 
> killed. <snip>

I think "caught in the crossfire" is not quite what happened. She
deliberately stepped into the line of fire ("Kill me instead!"). I'm
quite sure that there's more to Harry's survival at Godric's Hollow
than his mother's love or even her self-sacrifice. The "ancient magic"
LV mentioned in GoF could not be activated unless Lily died, but I
don't the death alone was enough to activate it. I think we're being
prepared for additional information about the scar and its relation to
a protective charm that Lily placed on Harry. JKR recently spoke of
LV's and Harry's mutual survival in that incident as the "central and
crucial question," so it will almost certainly determine how Harry
conducts his final battle or confrontation with Voldemort.

The passage serves other purposes as well as this primary one. The
Snape connection (snipped that part of your post--sorry) will, I
think, be important, but (with apologies to Severus) I don't think
it's as important as the charm itself. And another small or not so
small thing that relates to Book 6 rather than Book 7--We're told
repeatedly in OoP that her last name is Evans, and we also hear about
a certain ten-year-old named Mark Evans, whose name (IMO!) can't be a
coincidence. Last but not least, we finally see Lily as a person and
not just a face in a mirror or photo album or a voice in a memory. But
I think the big part she'll play in Book 7 relates to the protective
charm. If anyone wants links to the thread that discusses that
possiblility, please try the Search engine for this group. If you
can't find it and are really interested in this topic, I'll hunt up
the initial post. (The theory isn't mine, but I like it.)

Carol




From tipgardner at netscape.net  Sun Mar 14 00:55:43 2004
From: tipgardner at netscape.net (tipgardner)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 00:55:43 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Holding the Tiger's Tail
In-Reply-To: <c2vi3a+gqc5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c30aif+nan6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92949

casmir wrote:
> I really like Ginny, she's resourceful, adventurous, and has a lot
of > nerve!

Tip replies:
On an off topic note, I'm personally glad to see JKR fleshing
outGinny's character and offering another strong role model for girls
and women.  There's not enough of that in literature.

Casmir continued:
> I'm excited to see how it all ends, in the relationship department.  
> (Though actually, I think it's a bit dumb that everyone finds their 
> right partner by the time they graduate "high school".)

So Tip did some more replyin':
That's a classic device in mainstream film (think of all those brat
pack movies) but I think the same generally holds true in books.  The
end is the beginning sort of concept.  

One thing to bear in mind with the WW is that leaving Hogwarts appears
to be more similar to Uni than secondary school.  Think of OWLS as O-
and A-levels and NEWTS as sitting for your degree at Uni.  Not that
the ages work out in the analogy, particularly given that wizards and
witches live longer than muggles.  But when students leave Hogwarts
they seem to get jobs and, as in the case of Harry's parents, settle
down and get married as often as not.

Tip






From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Sun Mar 14 02:16:37 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 02:16:37 -0000
Subject: what are the criteria for becoming a Death Eater??? and is harry really a half-blood?
In-Reply-To: <c30504+9v1p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c30fa5+qrq6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92950

Snip of Kashelker's (sp?) post
> Mandy here:
> We don't actually know what spells were thrown by the DE at the 
Order 
> members during their individual duels in the battle.  I have 
assumed 
> Dark Spells were uses and members of the Order, and the Aurors, 
(like 
> Tonks who was too young to be in the Order the first time around) 
are 
> trained in the defense of them.  
> 
> It still doesn't answer the question of why the DE didn't use Dark 
> Spells against the Kids, though and I was disappointed in how 
easily 
> the kids were able to fight, and win against the DE in OotP.  It 
> doesn't make the DE appear to be much of a force to be reckoned 
with 
> at all.  My only fault with JKR's writing is the bad guys are 
often, 
> when it comes down to actually fighting and killing, weak and 
easily 
> defeated by 15 year olds.
> 
> The are many posts on Harry's half blood status on this site if you 
> search back through the archives.
> 
> Cheers Mandy

A couple of comments about the DE's at the MoM.  What ever Dolohov 
used on Hermione and tried to use on the others, on more than one 
occasion, was clearly something we have never seen before.  It 
did "quite enough damage to be going on with" and probably would have 
caused Hermione's death had he been able to speak it aloud. It was 
most probably "dark magic".

 What the DE's wanted was the prophecy.  For most of the running 
around in the MoM, no one could be absolutely sure who was carrying 
it.  If they killed the kid who had it in their hand (or used Crucio) 
they could have caused the prophecy to be broken.

As far as the kids ability to fight the DE's I think it became 
obvious they were no match for them.  If the DEs had not been 
interrupted by the Order and had succeeded in getting the prophecy 
(which they were literally seconds from doing), I imagine that the 
kid's bodies would never have been found.  The DoM would have been 
reinstated to its original pristine condition and all of the broken 
orbs replaced by fake ones.  That is not how it ended though.  The 
kids fought with whatever means they had, and they were losing.  RW 
children in a similar situation would do the same thing, use the 
means they had and probably die in the end anyway.

Hurray! Here comes the cavalry!
Sue




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 14 02:21:13 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 02:21:13 -0000
Subject: Need Quote: Help with Sirius's Motorcyle - More
In-Reply-To: <c2sde1+9ll0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c30fip+up1a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92951

Geoff:
My hardback UK edition, which is dated 1999 on the info page and 
which I bought last autumn has "get this bike away".
  
"Give Sirius his bike back" and "Give Sirius' bike back" would both 
be acceptable Britishisms.
 
Carol:
Right. Britishisms or Briticisms, but not Americanisms. My point is
that the American editor is unlikely to be responsible for the 
change
to "Give Sirius his bike back" because it's not American English, 
and
if it were the British editor's change
> <snip>
> 
> 
> Neri:
> From the data we have so far, it appears that pre-2000 UK editions 
> have "get this bike away" and post-2000 UK editions have "I'll be 
> takin' Sirius his bike back", while all US editions (even pre-2000) 
> have "I'll be takin' Sirius his bike back ". 
> 
> Since it is now established that "get this bike away" is not just a 
> mistake in my you-know-what version, I'll hazard a theory how the US 
> edition came to be the first to come out with a correction that was 
> later adopted also by the UK version (is this a heavy blow to British 
> patriotism?). My guess is that the original manuscript by JKR had 
> indeed "I'll be takin' Sirius his bike back". The editor thought that 
> it would be distractive for the reader to mention twice a character 
> that (so he thought at the time) has no role whatsoever in the plot 
> of the book, so he removed the second mention of the name, and JKR 
> hadn't had enough authority to object at the time. Remember that it 
> was then the first book of an unknown writer and nobody but JKR knew 
> that there are meticulous plans for 6 additional books.
>  
> Next, JKR perhaps had the first chance to correct this wrong if she 
> was asked to proofread the "translation" to american before it was 
> published, and during this proofreading she managed to sneak in the 
> second mention of Sirius' name.
> 
> Then she was probably asked to proofread the first UK edition in 
> order to correct mistakes for the next UK edition, and by 2000 she 
> had enough authority to add the second mention of Sirius in the UK 
> version also.
> 
> I agree that JKR probably wanted to mention Sirius twice so the 
> reader will remember the name for the next books. As for the future 
> importance of Sirius' motorcycle to the plot, however, I can't see 
> how this detail changes anything. In both cases Hagrid had the bike 
> and we don't know what did he do with it.
> 
> Neri

Pretty good theory, though as a professional editor I know that even a
new author has the right to accept or reject the copyeditor's
corrections. Maybe JKR didn't realize that at the time, or maybe she
wasn't really meticulous in checking the edited manuscript. At any
rate, I do agree that "I'll be takin' Sirius his bike back" probably
was her original wording, which she somehow managed to restore after
about twenty printings of the U.K. paperback, but not in time,
apparently, for the U.K. hardback. It's good to know that the American
edition (apparently) got *something* right. 

I still think the confusion over "lending" the motorcycle to Hagrid
(SS/PS) vs. "giving" it to him (PoA) could prove important, if only to
establish that Hagrid's memory is unreliable. I'd like to know what
really happened between those two at Godric's Hollow, but chances are
we'll never know.

Carol  




From snapesmate at hotmail.com  Sun Mar 14 02:22:44 2004
From: snapesmate at hotmail.com (snapesmate)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 02:22:44 -0000
Subject: Significant Lily?
In-Reply-To: <c2vt7f+kj9h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c30flk+4ob2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92952

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mad_maxime" <mad_maxime at h...> 
wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snapesmate" <snapesmate at h...>
> wrote:
> 
> > <snip>
> > JKR has already alluded that Harry's eye colour, the need for 
glasses, 
> > (and shape?) are a clue to Harry's ability to defeat Voldemort.
> > Curious...
> 
> Max:
> 
> I'm convinced that if there's any significance to Harry's eyes, it 
has
> to do with either their shape or the power behind them.  It can't 
have
> anything to do with them being green, as 'movie Harry' has blue 
eyes.

Lynnette:
Well, some of the time, LOL!  They do digitally colour Harry's eyes 
in some scenes, but they are not very consistent.  I think the film 
folks have just let this detail slide in the past and will have to 
tighten up the "continuity" in the future.  As Dan Radcliffe grows 
older they may have him try to wear lenses again.  (My understanding 
is first time around the lenses irritated his eyes) Anyway, back 
to "canon"...  in a webchat on AOL in 2000, JKR was asked, "I think 
the color of Harry's eyes will matter in the books to come. Yes?"  
Her response was "Hmmmm... maybe!".  

Lynnette, who thinks Snape IS a good guy, even if he is NOT a nice 
guy!





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sun Mar 14 02:29:31 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 02:29:31 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Holding the Tiger's Tail
In-Reply-To: <c302ne+345d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c30g2b+fps1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92953

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" 
<jferer at y...> wrote:
> Jim (me):" I think Ron's an ordinary guy ? a good ordinary guy
? 
who wants a wife  he can come home to, talk to, and bring up a 
family with. That's  perfectly fine if that's what his wife wants,
too, 
but that's not for  Hermione. 
> 
> Susanne: "Uh, frankly, how do you know that's what Ron wants 
or needs?"

And, uh, how do you know that Hermione doesn't want to bring 
up a family?  The ordinary wizarding family doesn't seem to have 
more than one or two children. I don't think that would rule out 
whatever else Hermione plans to do with her life. She's a 
splendid multi-tasker.  And why do you think Ron wants to be like 
Arthur? I'd say Arthur is the Weasley who gets the least 
admiration from Ron, bar Percy.

Jim:
> 
> >Of course I don't know, but I believe it.  He's always the 
follower in the adventures, not the principal actor, and he always 
acts in the way an ordinary person would, except that he finds 
himself in extraordinary circumstances and sticks by his 
friends<<.

Pippin:
Er, ordinary people are prefects, chess champions,Quidditch 
cup winners and get special awards for services to the school? 
When Ron is certain he can do something as well or better than 
Harry or Hermione, he does it, when he's not, he lets them do it. 
And why not? 

Jim:
> Ron always seems uneasy with Hermione's constant state of 
>action, and she's not going to stop.

Pippin:
I don't think it's the state of action he's uneasy with.  Hermione 
has a tendency to overreach, and Ron knows it. 
 
Jim:
> >And why is Harry the "best" guy, anyway?  He's likely to be 
severely damaged goods by the time this is over, physically, 
emotionally andpsychologically hammered, tortured, maybe 
difficult ? he was pretty unlikable for large portions of OotP
? 
maybe a young woman would be better off with Ron.<<

This is exactly why I see H/H as problematic. Harry is going to be 
a high maintenance partner. I'd like to see Hermione with 
someone she can come home to, talk to, and share her 
interests  with whether it's bringing up a family or political action.
Hermione doesn't want to be an Auror--unlike Harry, she's not 
planning on spending her life combatting the Dark Arts. 

 Harry will need an awful lot of her time, and doesn't seem at all 
concerned with her personal interests.   He didn't contribute 
much to Buckbeak's defence and he's never given a thought to 
the House Elf problem. Ron took over work on Buckbeak's 
appeal and he's certainly willing to discuss Hermione's plans for 
House Elf liberation even if he doesn't think they will work. And 
so far he's been dead right <g>.

Pippin




From BrwNeil at aol.com  Sun Mar 14 02:55:30 2004
From: BrwNeil at aol.com (BrwNeil at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 21:55:30 EST
Subject: And then there were none.
Message-ID: <1a3.218aaae6.2d8523a2@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92954

Are all the Marauders doomed.  I think so.

I came to this conclusion as I was doing some research on the Matauders map 
for my fanfiction.

When we read Prisoner of Azkaban, Mr. Pongs had already meet an early death.  
Now in OotP Mr. Padfoot was lost behind the veil.

Few can deny that Mr. Wormtail deserves to die after killing all those 
Muggles and also Cedric.  That leaves only Mr. Moony, our favorite DADA professor.

Will he be the only Marauder to live or will all four friends meet death 
before the end of the series?



Neil


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 14 02:56:05 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 02:56:05 -0000
Subject: Snape and the MOM
In-Reply-To: <c2slf4+bcpi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c30hk5+smh3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92955

Pippin wrote:
Snape only needs to tell Voldie that he's just discovered that 
the Order knew all along that only Voldemort or Harry could get the 
prophecy from the MoM and that the Order had also been 
informed about Harry's dreams about the Department of 
Mysteries.  So when Snape reported to the Order that Harry 
was  missing, after searching in the forest and otherwise delaying 
as long as he could without rousing suspicion, they unfortunately 
already knew where to look. 

He could also claim that he could hardly avoid contacting the 
Order about Harry's cryptic message, since it would definitely 
have aroused Dumbledore's suspicions if he hadn't. Even if 
Harry never came back from the Department of Mysteries, a 
number of other students had heard him.
  
Carol wrote:
You seem to be assuming that LV knows that Snape is in the 
Order. I'm assuming that his membership in the Order is part of 
what he's covering up and that he's only sharing information 
about Hogwarts and Dumbledore with LV. Do you have any 
basis for your view?

Pippin responded: 
I'm assuming that Snape is still alive because he convinced 
Voldemort that he, Snape, was in Dumbledore's confidence and 
was willing to betray that confidence to LV.  Of course he would 
be expected to  maintain that confidence. It would be difficult to 
do that if Dumbledore discovered that Snape had not reported 
the incident with Umbridge or Harry's disappearance.
 
Presumably Voldemort knows that there is a conspiracy helping 
Dumbledore, even if he doesn't know that it is called the Order of 
the Phoenix or that it meets at Grimmauld Place or who exactly is 
in it. Order was just a bit of shorthand...you could replace it with  
"Dumbledore or his contacts" if you like.


Carol again:
Thanks for the explanation. I do prefer that wording, because Snape's
relationship with Dumbledore at Hogwarts and his membership in the
Order are two different things. LV has to know something about the
first for Snape to succeed as a double agent; I don't necessarily
think he knows anything about the second because I don't think it
would be in Snape's interest to tell him (or Malfoy).

I also don't think that Snape has to report everything that happens at
Hogwarts, so there's no reason for him to say anything about Umbridge.
He also would have no way of *instantly* notifying LV that Harry was
missing--and he would realize that LV knew it anyway because of the
scar. Anyway, I don't think he reported to Voldemort that night; he
was too busy contacting other people and searching the forest for
Harry. (Wonder how *he* dealt with the centaurs?) I suppose that,
being Snape, he could come up with some reason for not doing so, but
he would still be blamed for letting everything slip. But I think that
LV still has reservations about Snape's loyalty, and now that Lucius
is in Azkaban, LV won't be able to obtain any information through
their contacts, so he may think it's time to dispense with Snape even
if he doesn't figure out the full extent of Snape's role in the MoM
fiasco. I think, though, that he'll suspect it was Snape, not Harry,
who contacted Dumbledore and the Order if only because Snape is a
clear-thinking, very sharp man and Harry is a boy whose emotions were
in turmoil and whose thoughts were being manipulated by LV himself. 

Who knows? Maybe I'm overestimating LV's powers of deduction and
underestimating Snape's ability to convince him of his innocence. But
with Lucius in Azkaban, there won't be a middleman to deal with, and
Snape will be on his own with his lies and his occlumency if he
chooses to leave the safety of Hogwarts. As I've said before, if I
didn't know he'll be playing a crucial role in Book 7, I'd be really
worried about him in Book 6.

Carol




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 14 03:13:03 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 03:13:03 -0000
Subject: JKR chat--Snape the coward or the one left forever?
In-Reply-To: <c2s4lm+vs9a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c30ijv+9n01@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92956

Earendil:
> I sincerely believe Karkaroff to be the "one who has left forever". 
> He's the only one (as far as we know from the books and as far as I 
> can remember) to have betrayed Voldemort *openly* by giving away 
> names of Deatheaters during his trial - even if it was clearly 
> cowardice. Because of him, Deatheaters were sent to Azkaban. The 
> ones who pretented to have been under an Imperius curse 
> were 'forgiven' by Voldemort. But would he be so indulgent with 
> someone who clearly betrayed his own? Even if Voldemort considers 
> Karkaroff as a coward (which he is) I suppose he would never allow 
> him to come back (or to live very long) considering what he did.
> 
> By giving away the names of fellow Deatheaters Karkaroff condemned 
> himself to never return to the Dark Lord's side. He fled when the 
> scar burned. Because he's a coward, that's for sure. But maybe also 
> because he knows that should he be found by other Deatheaters, he 
> would soon be a dead wizard.
> 
> And this would leave Snape as the coward.

I'm pretty sure that Barty Crouch sent LV an owl telling him that
Karkaroff had left Hogwarts, and he may also have indicated his
suspicions of what he would consider to be Snape's disloyalty. Anyway,
you might want to go upthread and read the other posts on this topic.
I'm not going to present my arguments again for fear of annoying the
List Elves (not to mention the list members who've already read them),
but there's quite a lot of discussion on this subject if you're
interested. Just use the search function or follow the thread "up" to
the original post. (If you have trouble figuring out how to do that,
I'd be willing to hunt up the original post for you. Or you can ask a
List Elf, which might be better.)

Carol




From siskiou at msn.com  Sun Mar 14 03:19:24 2004
From: siskiou at msn.com (Susanne)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 19:19:24 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Holding the Tiger's Tail
In-Reply-To: <c302ne+345d@eGroups.com>
References: <9992132.20040313104320@msn.com> <c302ne+345d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <251033765.20040313191924@msn.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92957



Hi,

Saturday, March 13, 2004, 2:41:50 PM, Jim wrote:
> Of course I don't know, but I believe it.  He's always the follower in
> the adventures, not the principal actor, and he always acts in the way
> an ordinary person would, except that he finds himself in
> extraordinary circumstances and sticks by his friends.

Well, that's what Hermione and Harry do, too.
Harry just happens to be the boy who lived, and he inherited
some stronger or unusual powers, but other than that, he
acts like an ordinary person.
He gets angry, jealous, annoyed, smug, happy, sad...

And I've met plenty of "Hermione's", too, who love studying
and helping people, and always feeling they have the right
theory.

Not everyone can be a leader, especially in a book like HP.


> Susanne:"For some reason, Hermione is seen by many readers as this
> perfect person, who "deserves" the "best" guy, which is, of course,
> Harry. "

> It's not a question of deserts with me; I've said before why I think
> Harry and Hermione are so well suited to each other.  They all deserve
> to be happy.

And I've tried to explain why I don't see them as very well
suited, or at least no more suited than Ron and Hermione
would be.
I don't think Harry and Hermione would be permanently happy
as a couple. It might be okay on the surface for a while, as
long as Harry doesn't blow up, but the way he avoids
confrontations with Hermione (many times more for his own
good, than for hers), doesn't bode well for future
disagreements (which inevitably happen, in any
relationships).

You didn't address any of the points I made regarding the
way Harry and Hermione interact.
I'd be interested to talk about that part.

> And why is Harry the "best" guy, anyway?  He's likely to be severely
> damaged goods by the time this is over, physically, emotionally and
> psychologically hammered, tortured, maybe difficult  he was pretty
> unlikable for large portions of OotP  maybe a young woman would be
> better off with Ron.

That's why I put *best* in quotation marks. I don't feel
that Harry is better, but it's quite obvious that many
others see Harry as vastly superior to Ron, not only
regarding magical powers, but also his personality.


-- 
Best regards,
 Susanne                           mailto:siskiou at msn.com

Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/





From amani at charter.net  Sun Mar 14 03:19:56 2004
From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 22:19:56 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] LV as Blofeld/Dr Evil?
References: <c2o07a+rkmi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <018b01c40973$3a034b80$0400a8c0@charterpa.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92958

nymphadora1:
      After listening to Goblet of Fire for the nth time, something struck me as 
rather odd. After having Harry tied to the gravestone to bleed him, and then 
being resurrected, why did Voldie free him and give him his wand back so he 
could duel with him? This strikes me as being totally out of character for 
you-know-who. He's tried to kill Harry three times, once as a baby when he 
should have been totally defenseless, and failed. Why would LV give Harry 
the opportunity to fight back? What a berk!

Taryn:
I think it has a lot to do with Voldy's pride. This is a kid who almost destroyed him as a mere BABY without even DOING anything, who has thwarted his attempt to return in PS at 11 and the attempt of his past self in CS at 12. Lord Voldemort, one of the most powerful wizards of the time, has been beaten by a baby and a pre-teen. Sounds rather pathetic, huh? So now he's going to prove, in front of a company of Death Eaters, that those were flukes. He's going to set up a fair match and PROVE that he's, by far, the better wizard. And note that by FAIR, I mean both opponents are equipped in the same manner. Sure, Voldy would've wiped the floor with Harry if it hadn't been for the brother wands. But that's called a fair fight--it determines who's the better of the two opponents.

----------
Taryn : http://taryn.shirataki.net

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From amani at charter.net  Sun Mar 14 03:23:19 2004
From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 22:23:19 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] what are the criteria for becoming a Death Eater??? and is harry really a half-blood?
References: <c2s9e7+10de5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <019901c40973$b3568f60$0400a8c0@charterpa.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92959

kashelkar:
Harry was born to a witch and a wizard (both from the magical community), so isn't he a pure-blood? I think to be a half-blood (like Voldy), one of the parents has to be non-magic person.

Taryn:
I think it depends on who in the WW you ask. I think the term "pureblood" implies a long history of family of pure wizarding descent. Harry would not be considered pureblooded because his mother was muggle-born. I think the more correct term for Harry would be full-blood. But we also have Tom Riddle referring to Harry as a half-blood. I think this has to do with who you ask. To TR, blood lineage is EXTREMELY important. Lily, being a muggle-born witch, is BARELY a witch, so Harry gets coined a half-blood by TR.

----------
Taryn : http://taryn.shirataki.net

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From amani at charter.net  Sun Mar 14 03:24:23 2004
From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 22:24:23 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What would you think if.....
References: <c2vav7+i9bj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <01a901c40973$d90e5260$0400a8c0@charterpa.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92960

> Gadfly McLellyn here:
> Could it be the Dementors who get Voldie?  I can't remember which 
> book it was but Dumbledore says that there are worst things than 
> death.  How terrible would it be to be immortal but without your 
> soul?  An immortal vegtable, if you will. Gadfly McLellyn<<

Kathy:
For your consideration...

Does anyone remember the Bloody Baron?  When you think of him, does 
his name bring pictures of 'blood' all over him?  Go back and read 
SS - the Bloody Baron has SILVER blood all over him...remind you of 
something? Someone who would take the life of a unicorn lives only a 
half-life?  

Taryn:
But note, ALL of the ghosts are completely silver. So the blood could just be regular red blood, but you wouldn't be able to tell, because ghosts are all silver.

----------
Taryn : http://taryn.shirataki.net

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 14 03:43:42 2004
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 03:43:42 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Holding the Tiger's Tail
In-Reply-To: <251033765.20040313191924@msn.com>
Message-ID: <c30kde+10oah@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92961

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Susanne <siskiou at m...> wrote:
> > And why is Harry the "best" guy, anyway?  He's likely to be 
severely
> > damaged goods by the time this is over, physically, emotionally 
and
> > psychologically hammered, tortured, maybe difficult ? he was 
pretty
> > unlikable for large portions of OotP ? maybe a young woman would 
be
> > better off with Ron.
> 
> That's why I put *best* in quotation marks. I don't feel
> that Harry is better, but it's quite obvious that many
> others see Harry as vastly superior to Ron, not only
> regarding magical powers, but also his personality.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Best regards,
>  Susanne                           mailto:siskiou at m...


Just one comment from someone who does not ship (the kids, anyway :o))

As long as they will be alive at the end , I am happy.
I don't see Harry as superior to Ron in terms of his personality, but 
I definitely see Harry as superiour to Ron in terms of the burdens he 
has to carry. Although I like Ron, Harry is the one who has my 
compassion and pity.

In comparison to Harry's problems, Ron's insecurities seem very 
insignificant to me.

Although as I said I don't ship, before OoP I thought that books do 
lead to Ron /Hermione romance. Now with Neville, Ginny and Luna 
getting closer to the Trio, I am thinking that there will be no 
romances inside the Trio.

My prediction will be Neville/Hermione; Ron/Luna and Harry/Ginny



Alla




From siskiou at msn.com  Sun Mar 14 04:07:35 2004
From: siskiou at msn.com (Susanne)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 20:07:35 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Holding the Tiger's Tail
In-Reply-To: <c30kde+10oah@eGroups.com>
References: <251033765.20040313191924@msn.com> <c30kde+10oah@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <976013342.20040313200735@msn.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92962



Hi,

Saturday, March 13, 2004, 7:43:42 PM, dumbledore11214 wrote:

> As long as they will be alive at the end , I am happy.

I will be, too. I don't think I'd want to re-visit the
series, if it ended with the death of the main kids,
including Neville.

> I don't see Harry as superior to Ron in terms of his personality, but
> I definitely see Harry as superiour to Ron in terms of the burdens he
> has to carry.

If you mean that Harry has suffered more than Ron, yes,
definitely. I wouldn't use the word superior in this
context, though.

> Although I like Ron, Harry is the one who has my
> compassion and pity.

I shift between the characters, depending on what is
happening to them. Harry, Ron, Hermione, Neville, Percy,
Ginny and many others have all had my compassion and pity
throughout the story.

Harry is more often in that position, certainly, but I'm not
sure any of this has much to do with shipping anymore,
unless you think Harry's suffering would make it more likely
for Hermione to choose a relationship with Harry, instead of
Ron.

-- 
Best regards,
 Susanne                           mailto:siskiou at msn.com







From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 14 04:16:39 2004
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 04:16:39 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Holding the Tiger's Tail
In-Reply-To: <976013342.20040313200735@msn.com>
Message-ID: <c30mb7+p639@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92963

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Susanne <siskiou at m...> wrote:
> 
> I shift between the characters, depending on what is
> happening to them. Harry, Ron, Hermione, Neville, Percy,
> Ginny and many others have all had my compassion and pity
> throughout the story.
>

Certainly, just to me Harry has it most of the times.

> Harry is more often in that position, certainly, but I'm not
> sure any of this has much to do with shipping anymore,
> unless you think Harry's suffering would make it more likely
> for Hermione to choose a relationship with Harry, instead of
> Ron.
> 
>

No, on the contrary, I would think that Ginny, who was hit by Voldie 
in a hardest way, is more capable of understanding what Harry went 
through.


But again, I like H/G, but really won't mind him ending up with 
anybody, alive.


Alla




From greatelderone at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 14 05:45:04 2004
From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 05:45:04 -0000
Subject: And then there were none.
In-Reply-To: <1a3.218aaae6.2d8523a2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <c30rh0+4f4q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92964

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, BrwNeil at a... wrote:
>  That leaves only Mr. Moony, our favorite DADA professor.
> 
> Will he be the only Marauder to live or will all four friends meet 
death 
> before the end of the series?

I agree Lupin is going to buy it. Why else would one need a silver 
hand for, but to kill werewolves. Furthermore lets add Snape to the 
kill list though I for one want him to become Headmaster at the end.




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Sun Mar 14 07:34:29 2004
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 07:34:29 -0000
Subject: Tom Riddle's Birth (Re: JKR Chat  "The Crucial ...")
In-Reply-To: <c2pgap+ubuu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c311u5+i98s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92965

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "davewitley" 
<dfrankiswork at n...> wrote:
> Naama wrote:
> 
> > JKR is clearly portraying Harry and Tom as very similar in their 
> > basic nature and temperament (outward appearance, talented, 
brave, 
> > ambitious, charismatic). However, who they become is (or will be) 
> the 
> > opposite poles of good and evil. I'm wondering whether we 
> shouldn't 
> > apply this basic opposition to their very beginning as babies. If 
> > Harry received the gift of love from his mother, maybe Tom 
> received a 
> > gift of hate? 
> > What if his mother, before she died, did indeed cast some kind of 
> > protective charm on him, but it was based not on her love for 
him, 
> > but on her hatred of his father? 
> > If we see the magical as a metaphor for the psychological (this 
is 
> > clearly the case with the protection that a mother's love 
> provides), 
> > it does happen in real life - parents raising their child to 
hate, 
> > almost base their whole personality, on a hatred of a betraying 
> > spouse. I think this fits better with the Good/Evil and Love as 
> the 
> > Greatest Force scheme than with Tom's mother protecting him with 
> her 
> > love.
> 
> I have some difficulty with this, because it doesn't in my opinion 
> fit very well with the theme of choice.  If Riddle was cursed at 
> birth then, technically he may not have been born evil, but in the 
> wider context, it's as good as.  In the HP-verse, if Riddle 
followed 
> the path from good (or at least not-evil) to evil, then I think the 
> dominant influence would have been his own choices, not the actions 
> of others.
> 
> If he was protected, or otherwise charmed, by his mother's love, 
> then the magnitude of his subsequent exploits fits the magnitude of 
> the choices he must have made to depart from that love.

I agree that the choice theme in itself would be better served if 
Harry and Voldemort had identical beginnings. But, as Dharma pointed 
out, their babyhood was very different, anyway. Harry was marked with 
love psychologically, just by being raised for a year by loving 
parents. Tom didn't get that - his father rejected him, and his 
mother died at birth. He was raised at an orphanage which we know he 
absolutely hated. I don't think that it's going too far to say that 
he was psychologically marked with rejection/hatred. So, it seems 
fitting to me that, in negative parallel to Harry, he would also be 
*magically* marked with hatred. By this, I don't mean that he was 
cursed. I see it as a *protective* charm his mother laid on him, 
using the one source of power she had - hatred of his father. Like 
Harry's love charm, it doesn't negate free will and choice on his 
part.

I don't know exactly where JKR is going in this, but the choice theme 
is not a simple matter in her books. We see that people's upbringing 
has great influence on who they become (e.g., Draco and Ron), 
although it's not a final cause. I mean, people can and do make 
choices that are not predetermined by their upringing. We see this 
with Percy, with Pettigrew and with Snape. I think that in this, she 
is being much more realistic than a simplistic (dare I say, Bush-
like?) you-are-who-you-choose-to-be approach. People aren't remade at 
every new choice they make. They are not a clean slate, on which they 
can freely write whatever they choose, at any given time. Each choice 
has to made with with and against the full load of their personality 
and past experiences. So, some options are facilitated, and some are 
impeded by inner inclinations. This certainly complicates free 
choice, but isn't it the way it is in real life?

> 
> David, who is staggered to learn that Lexicon Steve doesn't have 
>his own copies of the UK editions

That was exactly my reaction!

Naama




From gbannister10 at aol.com  Sun Mar 14 07:39:46 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 07:39:46 -0000
Subject: Is Remus really Lupin?   Was: Minerva McGonagall & The SS
In-Reply-To: <c306ta+4ph3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c31282+v5av@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92966

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" <rredordead at a...> 
wrote:

Mandy: 
>Remus (and Romulus, the founder of Rome) were brought up from birth 
by a 
> she-wolf, and Lupin being the French word for wolf.  

Geoff:
My Oxford French dictionary lists the French word for wolf as "loup" -
 "lupin" being the same as the English flower name. I think JKR was 
more likely working fom the English word "lupine". meaning wolf-like.




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Sun Mar 14 08:40:27 2004
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 08:40:27 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Holding the Tiger's Tail
In-Reply-To: <c2v9md+lo0t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c315pr+274o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92967

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" <jferer at y...> wrote:
<snip> 
> I agree with you that pointing to a list of situations doesn't do 
much
> to tell us what's going to happen. I think you have to look at their
> development more broadly.  Harry and Hermione are converging all the
> time, working, thinking and acting together.  Ron, for all his
> valuable friendship and loyalty, seems to be along for the ride.
> 
> I think Ron's an ordinary guy ? a good ordinary guy ? who wants a 
wife
> he can come home to, talk to, and bring up a family with.  
That's
> perfectly fine if that's what his wife wants, too, but that's not 
for Hermione. She will always seek challenges, tests, to stretch 
herself. It's not a life Ron would be comfortable with, but it's been 
Harry's whole life.  He's held the tiger's tail forever, and he can 
>do it with Hermione.

I find your position here odd, on several levels. First, this picture 
of an "ordinary guy". What exactly is that? Who do you put on the 
ordianry and who on the extraordinary side? Hermione is formidably 
intelligent, which is extraoridnary in the ordinary sense, that she 
is very far from the average in *this* quality. But, does this make 
her extraordinary in other ways? You seem to be thinking in an 
incredibly victorian way - that if a woman is intelligent, not to 
mention highly educated, then she is somehow unsuited for a family 
life. And because Ron isn't an academic genius, then his only 
recourse in life is to be a generic husband and father?  
People's desire for, and success in, family life, have very little to 
do with abilities, other than emotional health. Hermione's talents in 
no way mean that she won't desire somebody to "come home to, talk to, 
and bring up a family with" - just as much as anybody else does. 
Having some kind of intellectual career doesn't mean she won't want, 
and have, a completely normal family life. 
On another level, I disagree with your understanding of Ron. I think 
he is plenty ambitious, as we see via the mirror of Erised. He works 
hard at Quidditch in OoP; he becomes a prefect. He is a *Weasley*, 
for God's sake, and to be born to such a family means that you grow 
up with very high expectations from yourself. That's what makes him 
so insecure - the fear that he won't live up to these expectations. 
But he has dreams of glory, and who better than Hermione to push him 
towards their fulfillment? 
Another point is your understanding of Hermione. I agree that she is 
ambitious, but holding the tiger's tail?! Of the three, she is the 
least courageous. She is by no means a coward, but she lacks Harry's 
brand of reckless courage. If you look to partner Harry with a girl 
who is like him in that sese, then Ginny is the best fit, I would say 
(so far). 

Naama




From jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com  Sun Mar 14 08:44:12 2004
From: jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com (mooseming)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 08:44:12 -0000
Subject: How can LV win the war in three weeks
In-Reply-To: <c2vqqc+3va4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3160s+nvls@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92968

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" <nkafkafi at y...> wrote:
> > Hickengruendler:
> > There is a difference: You can't learn the Unforgivables in 
> Hogwarts. 
> > According to the Fake Moody, you must be very powerful to do them 
> > (and according to Bellatrix you must enjoy to do so. Although this 
> > maybe isn't true for those under the Imperius Curse). Krum, on the 
> > other hand, learned the Unforgivables. They are taught in 
> Durmstrang. 
> 
> 
> Neri:
> ARRRRGH! Those pesky little details! OK, thank you Hickengruendler 
> for pointing this bug. A little change in programming is clearly 
> needed. First, we have to find a wizard who had already learned the 
> Imperius curse (we could start our plot to take over the world in 
> Durmstrang). Then we imperio this wizard and give him these four 
> directions:
> 
> 1. Be a good servant of the Dark Lord.
> 2. Go and imperio other wizards.
> 3. If the imperio'ed wizard is not powerful, order him to be a good 
> servant of the Dark Lord.
> 4. If the imperio'ed wizard is powerful, teach him the Imperius curse 
> and give him these four directions.
> 
> Conquering the world this way will clearly take more time than my 
> first estimation. It depends mainly on the average time it takes to 
> teach the Imperius curse to a powerful wizard and the percentage of 
> powerful wizards out of the whole wizard population, but we will get 
> there in the end.
> 
> Neri

Oooh ESE!Neri  :-D

BUT what if an imperio'ed wizard imperio'ed LV, would he be a servant
to himself? Doesn't sound in character at all! No you need a negative
rule to exclude LV himself and possibly some of his closest
henchpeople because they might be doing other things with which this
process could interfere. Also could do with an end process or ruling
his evil empire could be a bit dull and repetitive.

Otherwise this is all looking very plausible to me!

Jo




From alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Mar 14 09:55:15 2004
From: alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk (alshainofthenorth)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 09:55:15 -0000
Subject: Theory: Inflation in the wizard economy
In-Reply-To: <c2urvf+t9o3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c31a63+9bj8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92969

I was out almost all day yesterday, so here's a late rejoinder:

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:

> A fair price for basic muggle binoculars is about $50. For a pair 
that
> has zoom, instant replay, slow motion, and closed caption, $75 
doesn't
> seem that unreasonable relative to $50 for a common pair.
> 
> True you may be able to get binoculars cheaper than $50, but not 
very
> good ones, and TOP quality brand name muggle binocular would run
> closer to $100.

Alshain: You make several good points, Steve, but at least when it 
comes to wands and omnioculars, I don't think the Muggle-world 
analogy holds because the Wizarding World will value things 
differently. A wand in the Muggle world is a stick of wood with a 
feather inside, as you quite correctly point out. But if anyone 
expects the wands they buy from Alivan's or The Wand Shop to work, 
even in Lord Voldemort's hands, they're seriously deluded. Pure and 
simple, they're toys. A wand in the Potter world is a hand-made, 
unique magical instrument for channelling and amplifying a witch or 
wizard's inner magic, with a core of a magical substance difficult to 
obtain. Mr Ollivander says he was nearly gored to death when plucking 
the unicorn hair inside Cedric's wand. 

Omnioculars, OTOH, may well be mass-produced in a house-elf sweatshop 
somewhere, and the magic inside them doesn't need to be all that 
advanced. In comparison to wands, they're the toys. I'm afraid I 
don't buy the idea that a pair of omnioculars is worth as much as a 
wand. The one thing that would work against this is that wands are a 
necessity (wonder if wand prices are ministry-subsidized?), and 
omnioculars are a luxury item. Sherrie made a good point about the 
prices at the World Cup probably being inflated, but the other thing 
about merchandise sold at these kinds of places is that quality 
doesn't necessarily follow with the price.

Steve: 
> 1 Basic Fireworks Blaze Box (OoP) = G5 = $37.50
> 
> 1 Deflagration Deluxe (OoP) = G20 = $150.00
> 
> Nothing there seems that far out of a realistic price range.
> 

Alshain: The thing that feels a bit off about the fireworks is that I 
don't see boarding school students having this much pocket money (and 
20 Galleons for a box of even quite advanced fireworks seems way 
overpriced to me -- you could get two wands for that amount.) At 
least hereabouts, the price of amateur fireworks went drastically 
downwards during the nineties (you need to be a pyrotechnician in 
order to get the really heavy stuff, I believe), and 120 Euro would 
buy more fireworks than you could burn during one New Year's Eve. The 
twins bet 37 Galleons, 15 Sickles and 3 Knuts in GoF -- their 
combined savings of a lifetime. Of course they're poorer than most 
and probably heavy spenders as well (keeping the joke-shop industry 
in business), so it doesn't have to mean anything.

And a week when you come up with something which Steve likes isn't a 
complete waste of time. ;-)

Alshain





From idrinkjameson at hotmail.com  Sun Mar 14 05:37:42 2004
From: idrinkjameson at hotmail.com (mcdee1980)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 05:37:42 -0000
Subject: Snape and fidelius
Message-ID: <c30r36+d037@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92970

It occurred to me as I was reading all of the Snape, MoM, OotP posts 
that something hasn't been mentioned.  I started a new thread because 
this is being discussed so many different places. Everyone seems to 
assume that LV knows that the OotP exists even if he doesn't know 
the name.  Its pretty clearly stated that 12 Grimmald Place is 
protected by a fidelius charm and that DD is the secret keeper for 
the order.  Why would the charm not extend to the existence of the 
order and its members.  If the charm does in fact cover the members 
of the order LV would have no way of knowing that snape is a member.  
Snape then joins the ranks of the DE who have denied their master to 
escape being imprisioned.  This lets Snape back into the DE without a 
problem and eliminates him as being the one who has left forever or 
the coward.  This theory also allows for other people to join the DE 
as spys.  I think Snape has truly changed sides, although I do forsee 
him inadvertantly causing some kind of problem.   

    Moving on, there is now an open position in LV's statement.  Who 
is the one who has left forever?  (please be aware that this is all 
based on my Snape as protected good guy theory)  Anyone who is a 
teacher at Hogwarts is eliminated.  Snape would know them.  My top 
choice is Fudge, who has grown too full of the power he has gained at 
the MOM to rejoin the group.  Perhaps this is why we see a new MOM in 
the next book.  LV said he would eliminate the one who left.  I'm 
still mulling over other choices in my head.  Hmmm back to the books.
 . . . Lady McBeth     





From falkelihu at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 14 10:00:28 2004
From: falkelihu at yahoo.com (Elihu Falk)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 02:00:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Remus J. Lupin
Message-ID: <20040314100028.75155.qmail@web61101.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92971

rrsryan:
 
What is the connection between Lupin and James Potter? <snip> Food for thought Remus always calls Harry Potter by his first name.
 
Geoff:
Yes, but remember that in the POA chapter "The Boggart in the 
Wardrobe", he calls everyone by their first name........
 
My (Elihu's) answer:
 
I think that Lupin refered to Harry by hius first name, and then as a cover-up decided to call all the students (or was it just the Gryffindor students) by their first names. He seems to be trying to hide his relationship with James and Sirius.
 


Elihu
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Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





From falkelihu at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 14 10:09:50 2004
From: falkelihu at yahoo.com (Elihu Falk)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 02:09:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Tom Riddles School House
Message-ID: <20040314100950.2473.qmail@web61106.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92972

Bonny:
 
Nowhere, in any of the books, is it stated that Tom Riddle, a.k.a Lord Voldemort, was in Slytherin house. 
 
Elihu:
 
If I remember correctly, Hagrid says that he was, together with the statement that all dark wizards were Slytherins.
 
Bonny (cont.):
 
There are various things that make his membership of Slytherin house a little dubious. For starters, there is the obvious question of his being a half-blood.
 
Elihu:
 
The Sorting Hat wanted to put Harry in Slytherin, and he to is a half-blood.
 
 


Elihu
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Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam

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From falkelihu at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 14 10:35:59 2004
From: falkelihu at yahoo.com (Elihu Falk)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 02:35:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: How can LV win the war in three weeks
Message-ID: <20040314103559.31924.qmail@web61107.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92973

Neri:
 
All he has to do is get outside his hideout and imperio the first 
wizard he meets in the street. Then he should give this wizard just 
three directions:

1. Be a good servant of the Dark Lord.
2. Go and imperio other wizards.
3. Give them these three directions.

Elihu's answer:
 
Can you really imperio someone to go and imperio others etc. forever? there might be a limited number of people you can imperio at a time.
 
An other problem with your theory: One might have to give detailed instructions to the imperio-ed person.
 
I don't think that is really possible.


Elihu
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Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





From alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Mar 14 12:57:51 2004
From: alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk (alshainofthenorth)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 12:57:51 -0000
Subject: Origins of Sirius/Keeping the wolf from the door
In-Reply-To: <c2vs5p+qiup@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c31ksf+53tu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92974

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatelderone" 
<greatelderone at y...> wrote:
> x>  
> > Oh dear. This is as "neat" as Sirus being able to turn into a dog 
> > like his namessake or that the story always climaxed at the end 
of 
> > the school year when they were finished or finishing exams. Just 
deal 
> > with it.
> > 
> >
> Kneasy:
> Sirius does not mean 'dog', it just happens to be the brightest 
star in the
> constellation Canis Major. It might be referred to as the 'Dog 
Star' but 
> that is because of its position, not its name. It's a common 
mistake to 
> think the name of the brightest star in the constellation means the 
same
> as the name of the constellation itself. It doesn't. Sloppy  
research.
> Sirius comes from the Greek Seirios, meaning hot or scorching. More
> applicable to his temper than his patronus.

Alshain: Think of "Dog Star" as a synonym for rather than the lexical 
meaning of Sirius. A much older one, actually -- Alpha Canis Majoris 
itself was connected to canines a long time before the Greeks. The 
Egyptian hieroglyph for it was a dog, and the Chinese name for the 
star translates as "Heaven-wolf". Akkadians, Assyrians, Babylonians 
and Chaldeans all called it different varieties of "Dog Star", 
suggesting that the star itself was the dog of the sun. Phoenicians 
called it "the barker". Ovid and Virgil also connected it with 
Anubis. If you want to trace the etymology ever further, the Arab 
word "sirdj" means "glittering". The astronomer Manilus, in the first 
century CE, said about it that:

"Sirius (the Dog) will fashion unbridled spirits and impetuous 
hearts; it will bestow on its sons billows of anger, and draw upon 
them the hatred and fear of the whole populace... Their hearts start 
throbbing at the slightest cause, and when speech comes their tongues 
rave and bark, and constant gnashing imparts the sound of teeth to 
their utterance. Their failings are intensified by alcohol, which 
gives them strength and fans their savage wrath to flame." 

Does it sound like anyone in the HP-verse?

Just 0.05 Euro-cents (the smallest coin found in this country). I've 
got an astro-historical thing for Alpha Canis Majoris if you can't 
tell. :-)




From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Sun Mar 14 13:26:51 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 13:26:51 -0000
Subject: Origins of Sirius/Keeping the wolf from the door
In-Reply-To: <c31ksf+53tu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c31mir+bfjd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92975

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "alshainofthenorth" <alshainofthenorth at y...> 
wrote:
> 
> Alshain: Think of "Dog Star" as a synonym for rather than the lexical 
> meaning of Sirius. A much older one, actually -- Alpha Canis Majoris 
> itself was connected to canines a long time before the Greeks. The 
> Egyptian hieroglyph for it was a dog, and the Chinese name for the 
> star translates as "Heaven-wolf". Akkadians, Assyrians, Babylonians 
> and Chaldeans all called it different varieties of "Dog Star", 
> suggesting that the star itself was the dog of the sun. Phoenicians 
> called it "the barker". Ovid and Virgil also connected it with 
> Anubis. If you want to trace the etymology ever further, the Arab 
> word "sirdj" means "glittering". The astronomer Manilus, in the first 
> century CE, said about it that:
> 
> "Sirius (the Dog) will fashion unbridled spirits and impetuous 
> hearts; it will bestow on its sons billows of anger, and draw upon 
> them the hatred and fear of the whole populace... Their hearts start 
> throbbing at the slightest cause, and when speech comes their tongues 
> rave and bark, and constant gnashing imparts the sound of teeth to 
> their utterance. Their failings are intensified by alcohol, which 
> gives them strength and fans their savage wrath to flame." 
> 
> Does it sound like anyone in the HP-verse?
> 

Good stuff. Though the alcohol was probably redundant in Sirius' case.
One could also add the concept of the Sothic (So thick!) year determined
by Sirius. 
Keep on like this and the LOONs will be humming with approval.

I've been patching together a not so serious post on names which I must
finish (work is piling up and my time for playing on site is liable to be
restricted over the next few weeks). One of those that I list is Regulus,
brother of Sirius.

Regulus (trans. little king), brightest star in the constellation Leo. 
Now I'd be interested in seeing how you could twist(!) the facts and 
mythology to suit a character that doen't seem very regal or lion-like. Not
trying to lure you into a pitfall, my post concentrates on a different theme,
but I would be entertained if you could do it.

Kneasy    





From gbannister10 at aol.com  Sun Mar 14 14:40:20 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 14:40:20 -0000
Subject: Remus J. Lupin
In-Reply-To: <20040314100028.75155.qmail@web61101.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c31qsk+10174@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92976

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Elihu Falk <falkelihu at y...> 
wrote:
> rrsryan:
>  
> What is the connection between Lupin and James Potter? <snip> Food 
for thought Remus always calls Harry Potter by his first name.
>  
> Geoff:
> Yes, but remember that in the POA chapter "The Boggart in the 
> Wardrobe", he calls everyone by their first name........
>  
> My (Elihu's) answer:
>  
> I think that Lupin refered to Harry by hius first name, and then as 
a cover-up decided to call all the students (or was it just the 
Gryffindor students) by their first names. He seems to be trying to 
hide his relationship with James and Sirius.

Geoff:
Two points here. First, just after the Dementors have been on the 
train....

"'We'll be at Hogwarts in ten minutes,' said Professor Lupin. 'Are 
you all right, Harry?'
Harry didn't ask how Professor Lupin knew his name.
'Fine', he muttered, embarrassed."

(POA "The Dementor" p.68 UK edition)

....which could lend credence to your theory. However, RJL could have 
seen Harry's scar when he was on the floor and he pushed his glasses 
back up.


Then again, in the boggart chapter, Harry is actually the third 
person whom he calls by their first name. Lupin uses Dean and 
Neville's names first. How does he know their names? There is no 
reference to him calling the register.

(POA "The Boggart in the wardrobe" p.100 UK edition)




From meriaugust at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 14 15:17:56 2004
From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 15:17:56 -0000
Subject: How can LV win the war in three weeks
In-Reply-To: <20040314103559.31924.qmail@web61107.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c31t34+3ao7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92977

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Elihu Falk <falkelihu at y...> 
wrote:
> Neri:
>  
> All he has to do is get outside his hideout and imperio the first 
> wizard he meets in the street. Then he should give this wizard 
just 
> three directions:
> 
> 1. Be a good servant of the Dark Lord.
> 2. Go and imperio other wizards.
> 3. Give them these three directions.
> 
> Elihu's answer:
>  
> Can you really imperio someone to go and imperio others etc. 
forever? there might be a limited number of people you can imperio 
at a time.
>  
> An other problem with your theory: One might have to give detailed 
instructions to the imperio-ed person.
>  
> I don't think that is really possible.
> 
> 
> Elihu

Plus we know that even a fourteen year old wizard can learn to throw 
off the Imperius Curse after less than an hour of practice. Though I 
have often wondered how many witches and wizards were Imperio-ed 
during the last war, I never really thought that it was a large 
amount of people for a significant amount of time. (Just the thought 
of a large, slow walking, dead eyed, zombie army of wizards makes my 
skin crawl!) IMHO, LV might use the Imperius curse for a quick bit 
of Muggle torture (ie: put the curse on one of his non-followers and 
have that person commit a heinous crime for which LV now cannot be 
implicated) or things like that. Even some DE's used Imperious as a 
get outta Azkaban card. What the WW should be working on is a way to 
detect the prescence of the Imperius curse, which would be helpful 
in determining who did what of their own volition. 
Meri (who will be v. upset if the WW's war turns into some wierd, 
Night of the Living Dead parody)




From kiatrier at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 14 15:34:52 2004
From: kiatrier at yahoo.com (Kia)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 15:34:52 -0000
Subject: Hermione is Umbridge
Message-ID: <c31u2s+i5pg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92978

A while ago I run across an old interview of JKR (I run across 
only one, but she said it twice 
(http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2000/100
0-nbc-couric.htm  
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/1999/109
9-pressclubtransc.html )) in which Ms Rowling stated (jokingly I 
presumed): If she had known how problematic the 
pronounciation of Hermione would be, she would have called 
her Jane. (paraphrasing.)

I went... "Jane"?? (and instead of thinking "Jane Austen" - which 
is the closest guess one would wager with Rowling and her 
Austen idolisation) I went "Didn't I hear that name in OotP?" And 
of course it is in OotP: it is our least favourite character's name: 
Dolores Jane Umbridge (not Rowling's though - Isn't that 
strange that she likes Vernon less than Umbridge?)


So I pondered how Rowling could even consider giving her most 
sadistic character Hermione's alternative name and I pondered 
and mulled over and meditated... until I realised that nothing is 
more uninteresting than a speculation based on something that 
is said jokingly and I abandoned my line of thought.


But then - to my delight - our dearest Joanne answered a 
question after Ron, Ginny and Hermione's middle names with: 
"Middle names: Ginny is Molly, of course, Hermione 'Jane' and 
Ron, poor boy, is Bilius." (Link: 
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/JKRWorldBookDay2004.html)


I leave Bilius and Molly to other people for now and concentrate 
on the fact that Umbridge and Hermione share the same middle 
name. Jane. 

Both Hermione and Umbridge like rules. They like to enforce 
them. They like having the power to enforce them be it through 
prefecture or being a High Inquisitor. They like to break them, if 
they deem it necessary, being by trying the Cruciatus on 
students or leading teachers to an almost certain death. Both 
have a sadistic or at least cruel streak - Umbridge and her quill, 
Hermione and her parchment. Both are not above blackmail. 
Both are not above abusing their power. Both do what they deem 
necessary to do to keep the world the way they want it. Both are 
ruthless. Both are followers - to a degree at least. 

They carry each other's middle name deservedly. The real 
difference between them besides looks, age, conscience and 
other "unimportant" details (Yes, I am sarcastic.) is that they are 
on opposing sides and Hermione's side is the one, we 
sympathise with.

If Pansy Parkinson or even Cho Chang had been responsible for 
"The Marietta Incident", we would have hated Pansy or Cho for it. 
Fandom would have them tarred and feathered. 
But as this is darling Hermione, we are talking about and 
Marietta would have gotten our heroes in much trouble.... we are 
not thinking in tar and feathers and I suspect Rowling doesn't 
want us to.


So how is Hermione Umbridge?

Uhm, I think this might be a bit of an unpopular answer but I don't 
think Umbridge is evil. No, she ain't gonna be redeemed either, 
but she isn't Voldemort. She is the representation of "Law and 
Order" gone wrong. Umbridge is bureaucracy without a 
conscience, laws without the sense for exceptions, justice 
without the concept of mercy, punishment without forgiveness. 
(Sorry for the flowery metaphors, I was listening to a Bjork song 
while writing this.) That is evil on a completely different level. It's 
evil, but it's also very normal, very human in its inhumanness. It's 
something you encounter much more often in the real world than 
Voldemorts. I am rambling, sorry.

Anyway it's cruel and sadistic and wrong, but it's hard to call it evil 
in the same way one would call Voldemort evil. It's not the same 
thing, at least not in Harry Potter. Evil is Voldemort. Umbridge is 
ruthlessness. Umbridge is sadism. Umbridge is cruelty. 
Umbridge is the lack of compassion. Umbridge is selfishness. 
Umbridge is hunger for power. Umbridge is everything we 
identify as evil or ingredient for evil, but she isn't Voldemort. The 
difference between her and Voldemort is the intention. Umbridge 
believes that she can do good, that she is doing good, that what 
she does is constructive, that she is the epitome of morality. 
What stops Umbridge from being evil and what keeps her 
human is her belief that she does good. Her morality is totally 
screwed up, but if you screw up your eyes and read OotP 
upside-down, you might realise how - from her point of view - 
she is doing the right thing and nothing but the right thing. And 
you might also see how she believes that the means justify the 
ends.

And now if get your eyes and your book back to normal, read 
Hermione and you'll see that she also believes that she is doing 
the right thing and that the means justify the ends. She isn't 
using the Cruciatus -- yet, but I do not doubt for a second that if it 
was doable for Hermione to do so and it appeared necessary to 
her, she would use it in a heart beat.

Umbridge is exactly how Hermione could be. 


And might will be.



Kia




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Mar 14 16:02:54 2004
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 14 Mar 2004 16:02:54 -0000
Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat 
Message-ID: <1079280174.21.39889.m10@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92979


We would like to remind you of this upcoming event.

Weekly Chat 

Date: Sunday, March 14, 2004 
Time: 11:00AM - 7:00PM CST (GMT-06:00) 

Hi everyone! 

Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern, 7
pm UK time.  *Chat times are not changing for Daylight
Saving/Summer Time.* Chat generally goes on for about 5 hours,
but can last as long as people want it to last.

Go into any Yahoo chat room and type /join HP:1 
For further info, see the Humongous BigFile, section 3.3.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/hbfile.html#33

Hope to see you there!  
 

 





From a_b_desert_king at hotmail.com  Sun Mar 14 15:30:16 2004
From: a_b_desert_king at hotmail.com (a_b_desert_king)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 15:30:16 -0000
Subject: Remus J. Lupin
In-Reply-To: <c31qsk+10174@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c31tq8+d6q4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92980

Geoff said:
> Two points here. First, just after the Dementors have been on the 
> train....
> 
> "'We'll be at Hogwarts in ten minutes,' said Professor Lupin. 'Are 
> you all right, Harry?'
> Harry didn't ask how Professor Lupin knew his name.
> 'Fine', he muttered, embarrassed."
> 
> (POA "The Dementor" p.68 UK edition)
> 
> ....which could lend credence to your theory. However, RJL could 
have 
> seen Harry's scar when he was on the floor and he pushed his 
glasses 
> back up.

> snip<
> 
> (POA "The Boggart in the wardrobe" p.100 UK edition)

Heather says:

If you check a couple of pages before this, before Lupin leaves to 
talk to the driver (Canadian edition), Harry is awakened by Ron and 
Hermoine slapping his face and calling his name.  Lupin is still in 
the compartment at that time.  He offers everyone some chocolate (my 
kinda prof! :) ) and explains that 'the thing' was a Dementer.  Then 
he leaves to speak with the driver.  It's when he returns that he 
calls Harry by name and Harry wonders how he knew it. 

Besides, how many of you *really* think that Lupin was truly asleep 
during the trio's conversation about Black's escape?  IMO, the snort 
(of laughter?) that scared Malfoy off was a little too well timed to 
have been coincidence.

How does he know everyone's name in his class?  Maybe he's just 
really good with names.  It is a few days into the school year 
before he has Harry's class for the first time.  I'm sure that Lupin 
is curious about Harry (since he knew his parents well) and his 
classmates and has taken the time to do a little 'research' about 
them before his class.  Just guessing on this one though.....

Heather





From tipgardner at netscape.net  Sun Mar 14 17:01:34 2004
From: tipgardner at netscape.net (tipgardner)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 17:01:34 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Holding the Tiger's Tail
In-Reply-To: <c30mb7+p639@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3235e+ulvs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92981


> "dumbledore11214"  wrote:
>  
> No, on the contrary, I would think that Ginny, who was hit by
> Voldie in a hardest way, is more capable of understanding what Harry
> went through.

Tip suddenly thought:
Ah...yes.  I agree with that idea.  As of now, none of the good
characters who are heterosexual and female have the direct experience
of suffering at the hand of Riddle or LV as Ginny has.  So, even
though Ginny hasn't built up the volume of experience with HP that
Herm. and Ron have, she has a direct line into at least one major
aspect of HP's psyche.

Tip





From nkafkafi at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 14 17:25:32 2004
From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 17:25:32 -0000
Subject: How can LV win the war in three weeks
In-Reply-To: <c3160s+nvls@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c324ic+blrt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92982

> Jo wrote:
> Oooh ESE!Neri  :-D
> 
> BUT what if an imperio'ed wizard imperio'ed LV, would he be a 
servant
> to himself? Doesn't sound in character at all! No you need a 
negative
> rule to exclude LV himself and possibly some of his closest
> henchpeople because they might be doing other things with which this
> process could interfere. Also could do with an end process or ruling
> his evil empire could be a bit dull and repetitive.
> 
> Otherwise this is all looking very plausible to me!

Neri:
Details, details! This is why I never became a professional 
programmer. This thread does demonstrate, however, the potential of 
open-source code. In one week we could probably design between us the 
ultimate, fail-proof, world-conquering Imperius virus. Unless Yahoo 
or the list elves consider this an illegal activity and hex us out :-D

BTW, you noticed how, in my rush to defend my new invention, I 
immediately identified myself with the Dark Lord. I guess this is why 
mad scientists tend to become tools in the hands of mad dictators. 
Actually, I believe Ultimate Evil is inherently dull and repetitive. 
If LV gets his wishes to win the war, dominate the world and conquer 
death, I expect he'll die of boredom after three years at the most. 

Quickly returning to programming issues, which are much more 
captivating than the moral dilemmas, I didn't think about the problem 
you raised of LV becoming his own servant <slight dizziness; 
overcome>. I did think about a similar problem: Suppose you went to 
one of the imperio'ed wizards and told him (very fast, before he has 
time to curse you): "I'm the Dark Lord!" Would he then become your 
servant? I guess he would, unless he knows what the real Dark Lord 
looks like. This demonstrates again that any virus is only a 
parasite, depending completely on the knowledge and abilities of its 
host.

Correcting all these bugs that you and others were quick to point 
out, I can see that the elegance of the original 3 directions in my 
Imperius Virus v.1.0 won't last a day. What we need is a sub-program. 
We could write all the complex directions on a peace of parchment, 
and put also a picture of LV in it, and of course pictures of all his 
henchmen. Then all we need to do is to give this parchment to the 
first imperio'ed wizard and order him to follow the directions in it. 
The directions in the parchment will look something like:

----------------------------
1. Be a good servant of the Dark Lord (see Fig. 1).
2. ...
3. ...
<a long list of directions and conditions here>
.
.
37. Photocopy this parchment, give it to the wizard you imperio'ed 
and order him to follow the directions in it.
-----------------------------

This looks good. But what if Harry, Ron and Hermione manage to steal 
one of these parchments, replace LV's picture with DD's picture and 
return it to the imperio'ed wizard without him noticing the switch? 
Oh well, back to the drawing board...     


Neri, who sincerely hopes that LV does not lurk in HPFGU and will 
never find out about this.






From cymru1ca at yahoo.ca  Sun Mar 14 18:09:30 2004
From: cymru1ca at yahoo.ca (Erica)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 18:09:30 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Holding the Tiger's Tail
In-Reply-To: <c3235e+ulvs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3274q+bm9s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92983

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tipgardner" <tipgardner at n...> 
wrote:
> 
> > "dumbledore11214"  wrote:
> >  
> > No, on the contrary, I would think that Ginny, who was hit by
> > Voldie in a hardest way, is more capable of understanding what 
Harry
> > went through.
> 
> Tip suddenly thought:
> Ah...yes.  I agree with that idea.  As of now, none of the good
> characters who are heterosexual and female have the direct 
experience
> of suffering at the hand of Riddle or LV as Ginny has.  So, even
> though Ginny hasn't built up the volume of experience with HP that
> Herm. and Ron have, she has a direct line into at least one major
> aspect of HP's psyche.
> 
> Tip

Except that in OotP, this idea of Ginny understanding what Harry goes 
through is appears to come to naught.  Her experience of "possession" 
was nothing like what Harry routinely has experience via his scar.  
And when he does, at the end, come to be "possessed" by the *real* 
Voldemort (as opposed to the shadow of his 16 y/o self) it is nothing 
like the experience that Ginny relates to him.  Also, it's Ginny 
hasn't appeared to have gain any special "knowledge" of Voldemort as 
it's Hermione (never having been possessed) that warns Harry about 
the potential (and later confirmed) trap that Voldemort has set for 
him.   Hermione and Luna do just as much to relieve Harry of his 
anxieties/depressions/angst as does Ginny.

Cheers,
Erica






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 14 18:58:11 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 18:58:11 -0000
Subject: JKR chat--Snape the coward or the one left forever?
In-Reply-To: <c2u8n2+3hn7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c32a03+5utd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92984

Susan:
No, no, no!!!  Please don't get me wrong on that topic!  *I* happen 
to think Snape is truly working for DD & the Order, and that he is 
very brave!  No, *all* I was trying to do was argue the *possibility* 
that Snape might be the one *Voldy* thought of as the coward, rather 
than necessarily the one Voldy thought was gone forever.  
 
 
Carol:
Poor SSS! I had to laugh when I saw Puja's post and wondered how you
would respond to it. 
Carol, who hopes you'll forgive her for laughing
 
Puja: :-) I don't mind you laughing, Carol. and Susan, I wasn't 
reading you wrong. I was just looking for justifications to my own 
doubts about Snape that is why I put questions to you. It's a 
friendly discussion, I know :-)
 
I happened to like Snape too and trust him..more in OoTP, but one of 
JKR's interview put me on my guard. She said "Don't be too sure about 
Snape. I would not trust him so much yet." That is why I was 
wondering about it. Ofcourse I know both of you were discussing LV's 
point of view on the missing death eaters  :-)
 
Nothing personal :-) Puja

Carol again:
Puja, can you find that quote for us? I think you may be
misremembering it slightly. JKR has told us several times to keep an
eye on Snape, but I'm not aware that she ever said not to trust him.
(I think she wants to keep us in suspense about his motives, just as
she wants us to have a doubt or two about Harry's survival, but all
the Snape quotes I've seen, other than those that relate to him as a
teacher, seem to suggest that, despite his sometimes unpleasant
personality, he's on the side of good.) Thanks,

Carol




From dk59us at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 14 19:26:50 2004
From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 19:26:50 -0000
Subject: Perkins again-a minor(?) point
Message-ID: <c32blq+qlif@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92985

Not too long ago there was a thread with speculation on whether
Perkins, the old warlock who is Arthur Weasley's only colleague in the
Misuse of Muggle Artifacts office would be of any importance in
future.

Thanks to the excellence of the Yahoo Archive search, I don't know how
long ago it was, or whether the following bit was already mentioned.

Later in OoTP ("Educational Decree Number Twenty-Four, Canadian hc
edition, p. 318), when Harry discovers Hedwig's injury in History of
Magic, he tells Professor Binns that he doesn't feel well and is going
the the hospital wing.  Binns replies:
     "'Yes,' said Professor Binns, clearly very much wrong-footed. 
'...yes, hospital wing...well, off you go, then, Perkins...'"

Of course, Binns never gets a student's name right.  But with a vast
array of possible surnames beginning with P to choose, he chooses one
we've already heard.

This may mean nothing.  Then again, people are always talking about
JKR using seemingly minor coincidences to foreshadow important
developments later.

Thought you ought to know.

Eustace_Scrubb




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Sun Mar 14 19:27:46 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 19:27:46 -0000
Subject: Snape and the MOM
In-Reply-To: <c30hk5+smh3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c32bni+imqp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92986

Carol:
> I also don't think that Snape has to report everything that 
> happens at Hogwarts, so there's no reason for him to say anything 
> about Umbridge. He also would have no way of *instantly* notifying 
> LV that Harry was missing

Susan:
How do we know that, Carol?  Didn't DD tell Harry at the end of OoP 
that Order members have "more reliable means of communication" than 
fireplaces?  He didn't explain what those means are but left it open 
for a futute revelation.  (Fawkes, for one, seems to have some 
pretty powerful magical abilities; I wonder if he can't provide 
almost instantaneous communication?)  Anyway, if DD & the Order have 
such means, why might not Voldy & his henchmen/women?  

Carol:
> Anyway, I don't think he reported to Voldemort that night; he
> was too busy contacting other people and searching the forest for
> Harry. 

Susan:
Totally ignoring the argument at hand (whether Snape did or didn't 
contact Voldy that night), I would argue only that if more efficient 
means of communication exist, as DD said, why would time constraints 
prevent Snape (or any other adult player that night) from sending 
out important communication?  How much time does it take to jot a 
note or send a messenger?  

(For what it's worth, on the argument at hand, I don't think Snape 
did contact Voldy that night, but I do think he might have been able 
to had that been his choice.)

Siriusly Snapey Susan









From stevejjen at earthlink.net  Sun Mar 14 19:32:52 2004
From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 19:32:52 -0000
Subject: Tom Riddle's Birth (Re: JKR Chat  "The Crucial ...")
In-Reply-To: <c311u5+i98s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c32c14+f0gh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92987

Dharma:
> JKR has said herself that the WW really is not that much different 
> than the Muggle World, so if that is true, then Tom Riddle has 
some 
> different challenges despite his similarities to Harry. Riddle is 
a 
> good candidate for some deeply anti-social behaviors, and deeply 
held 
> self-loathing. This does not make his choices acceptable, but 
there 
> are some differences that stand out to me between his life 
> circumstances and Harry's.
> 
> Both are orphans, but Harry at the very least had a year to form 
> attachments to his parents, and then, despite their abusiveness, 
time 
> to form attachments to the Dursley's. Tom Riddle does not seem to 
> have any of that available to him. 

Naama responded:
> I agree that the choice theme in itself would be better served if 
> Harry and Voldemort had identical beginnings. But, as Dharma 
pointed 
> out, their babyhood was very different, anyway. Harry was marked 
with 
> love psychologically, just by being raised for a year by loving 
> parents. Tom didn't get that - his father rejected him, and his 
> mother died at birth. He was raised at an orphanage which we know 
he 
> absolutely hated. I don't think that it's going too far to say 
that 
> he was psychologically marked with rejection/hatred. So, it seems 
> fitting to me that, in negative parallel to Harry, he would also 
be 
> *magically* marked with hatred. By this, I don't mean that he was 
> cursed. I see it as a *protective* charm his mother laid on him, 
> using the one source of power she had - hatred of his father. Like 
> Harry's love charm, it doesn't negate free will and choice on his 
> part.
 

Jen: JKR's comment on the chat indicates there are additional 
circumstances about Tom Riddle's birth that we haven't heard. 
Perhaps even *Tom* wasn't privvy to this information either? Diary!
Tom in COS and LV at the graveyard are the two instances where we 
get information about Tom's past. Assuming Tom was told much of his 
history at the Muggle orphanage, then pieced together his own 
version of events from digging around once he got to Hogwarts (where 
he discovered he was Heir of Slytherin), I'd say there's a lot of 
room for unintentional error and omission in his self-reported 
history. 

Could there have been events around his birth that led to Memory 
charms on the Muggle orphanage personnel? Did the mid-wife exclude 
certain pertinent facts? Were there inexplicable events that the 
Muggles chose to overlook, much like the Dursleys with Harry?

It's not that I reject the psychological model when examining 
Harry's and Tom's childhoods, I'm just curious if what we know about 
Tom is accurate.

Jen Reese





From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Sun Mar 14 19:41:37 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 19:41:37 -0000
Subject: Snape and fidelius
In-Reply-To: <c30r36+d037@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c32chh+ilmv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92988

Lady McBeth:
> Everyone seems to assume that LV knows that the OotP exists even 
> if he doesn't know the name.  Its pretty clearly stated that 12 
> Grimmald Place is protected by a fidelius charm and that DD is the 
> secret keeper for the order.  Why would the charm not extend to 
> the existence of the order and its members.  

Susan:
I think it *does* protect the existence of the Order & its members 
when they are at HQ.  But it doesn't prevent Voldy from *assuming* 
correctly that the old Order has been reinstituted.  There was an 
Order when Voldy was at the height of his powers previously, and it 
included DD and Moody and some others who're still around.  If I 
were Voldy and knew that DD was aware of my "rebirth" to a human 
body, I'd *assume* that he would resurrect the Order.

Lady McBeth:
> If the charm does in fact cover the members of the order LV would 
> have no way of knowing that snape is a member. 

Susan:
I really had never thought of whether the fidelius charm extends to 
protecting the members, wherever they happen to be, from being 
identified as members.  That's an interesting idea, and I'd be 
curious to hear others' views of this possibility.

Lady McBeth:
> Moving on, there is now an open position in LV's statement.  Who 
> is the one who has left forever?  (please be aware that this is 
> all based on my Snape as protected good guy theory) 

Susan:
If, as you theorize, Snape is removed from the running for one of 
the three missing DEs, then Karkaroff could be the one who has left 
forever and someone else not as often thrown into the mix--Ludo 
Bagman?--could be the coward.  He certainly seems somewhat cowardly 
to me.

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 14 19:47:00 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 19:47:00 -0000
Subject: Knockturn Alley again? (Was: two way mirror of sirius)
In-Reply-To: <c2uap9+g5qo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c32crk+5k52@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92989

> Puja: The two-way mirror will definitely appear in the forthcoming 
> books- JKR mentioned on her world book day online chat that it will 
> (well, in an indirect way). I wonder as the books get darker (and 
> only two mroe dangerous ones left) is there any possibility that it 
> falls in the wrong hands? Harry gets in touch with the wrong people 
> and stumbles on some other secrects of the past??


Funny--this post made me think of the way Harry "stumbled" into
Knockturn Alley in CoS. We all know that JKR doesn't usually mention
people or places without a reason, and I have a feeling that Knockturn
Alley will be important later. I wonder if that's one of the places
where Snape goes to find out information. I also wonder if Harry will
pay it a (ahem!) Nocturnal visit, dressed in his invisibility cloak.
Just a thought suggested by the idea of getting in touch with the
wrong people.

Carol




From falkelihu at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 14 10:27:11 2004
From: falkelihu at yahoo.com (Elihu Falk)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 02:27:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Murdering Voldemort (was: What would you think if.....)
Message-ID: <20040314102711.35950.qmail@web61110.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92990

David:
 
<snip part of a sentence> even if a court has condemned someone to death, for example, that doesn't make it lawful for the ordinary citizen to kill them if they escape. <snip> The reason for this post is that, whatever one's RL definition of murder, I'm pretty sure that for Harry to kill Voldemort in any situation other than immediate self-defence *would* be regarded as murder by Harry, and, I think, by the narrative voice of the story.
 
Elihu:
 
If I'm not mistaken, if someone's likely to kill any moment without warning, killing him is self-defence. You don't need to let them aim the gun (or the wand) before you can kill them.


Elihu

.......................................................
Admin Team note:

Discussion of the ethics of killing *in direct relation to canon* is fine for this list. If, however, anyone wishes to discuss the issues raised in more general terms, we would ask that discussion is moved over to OTChatter,

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter

Many thanks.




From ellyn337 at earthlink.net  Sun Mar 14 19:56:37 2004
From: ellyn337 at earthlink.net (mclellyn)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 19:56:37 -0000
Subject: Celtic folklore/was and then there were none
In-Reply-To: <c30rh0+4f4q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c32ddl+481b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92991

> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, BrwNeil at a... wrote:
> >  That leaves only Mr. Moony, our favorite DADA professor.
> > 
> > Will he be the only Marauder to live or will all four friends 
meet 
> death 
> > before the end of the series?

Greatelderone wrote: 
> I agree Lupin is going to buy it. Why else would one need a silver 
> hand for, but to kill werewolves. Furthermore lets add Snape to the 
> kill list though I for one want him to become Headmaster at the end.

Gadfly McLellyn:

I just started reading the Celtic section of "The Ultimate 
Encyclopedia of Mythology"  by Cotterell & Storm, Hermes House 
publishing (no I'm not kidding). These stories are very brief so if 
someone out there has more info -  please enlighten me. Anyway, I 
found more than a few of JKR's devices, my apologies if these have 
already been discussed (I'm in and out depending on how much overtime 
work requires):

Silver Hand - Nuada, the leader of the people of the Goddess Dana, 
lost his hand fighting Firbolg.  Kian Cecht, Irish God of healing, 
gave him a silver hand.  Later Dian Cicht's son Miach made him a new 
hand of flesh and blood.  Dian Cecht was jealous of his son's healing 
skills and killed him.  Will Wormtail get a flesh and blood hand 
later and is that person doomed?

Brain ball - made by Conall (foster brother of the Ulster hero 
Cuchulainn) out of the brains of a slain Leinster king. The "brain 
ball" was shot out of a sling shot against Ulster King Conchobhar Mac 
Nessa and it lodged in the king's skull.  The doctors advised him to 
avoid exercise or excitement.  Some years later he went into a rage 
and the "brain ball" caused his death.  Doesn't look so good for Ron 
does it?

Blood - Derbforgaille, daughter of a ruler of Lochlann, fell in love 
with Cuchulainn and in order to follow him turned herself into a 
swan.  Cuchulainn shot her with a sling shot and she returned to 
human form.  He sucked the stone out of her wound but now they were 
linked by blood and couldn't marry.  Now that Harry and Voldie are 
linked by blood what JKR device will be used?  Now they can't kill 
each other?

Bran's cauldron of Rebirth restored warriors to life, but without the 
power of speech.  Could Voldie be missing one of his powers?

ring of invisibility - Owain saved a lady by the name of Luned (who 
does that sound like?) who gave him a ring of invisibility. 

Camelot - Castle city whose mystique is its elusive location which 
has yet to be found.  Sound like Hogwarts?  Does this mean there is a 
chance Arthur could be a Hogwarts headmaster?

Sorry if this is a bit off topic - thought JKR's love of mythology is 
fairly well known - all in good fun.  Not done reading the Celtic 
section yet.  
P.S  recently saw a PBS series on Shakespeare by Michael Wood which 
revealled that William used to live on a road called Muggle.  Here, 
here to the Weird sisters (MacBeth).





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 14 20:17:14 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 20:17:14 -0000
Subject: Apparating into the Ministry...
In-Reply-To: <20040313091600.45495.qmail@web13426.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c32eka+h3v3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92992

> Carol:
> I definitely agree that you can't apparate or disapparate into the
DoM itself. Bode, an "unspeakable" who works in the DoM, may well have
apparated into the atrium (with a lot of other people), but he  rides
the lift with Harry and Mr. Weasley. But I'm pretty sure that you
can't apparate or disapparate *anywhere* in the MoM except the atrium,
which is where everyone seems to enter and leave the building -- even
LV and Dumbledore. If you can apparate inside the building, why have
lifts on every floor? Even the memos take the lift. 
> 
> Kashelkar's reply:
> 
> It's possible that the only place where apparation/disapparation is
possible within MoM is the atrium, however, in the scene, when Harry
lifts the prophecy from the stand, the DEs start apparating all around
him, how's this possible??? Doesn't this indicate that, it's possible
to apparate inside the DoM, that too in the hall of prophecies??


I think they were simply hidden in the shadows, especially since Harry
doesn't hear any popping sounds. He hears Lucius Malfoy's voice right
behind him and his friends (OoP, Am. ed., 780), and then "black
shapes" simply appear, noiselessly,  "out of thin air" all around him
(781). "Out of thin air" is, I think, his impression of the event
rather than fact, just as "he knew he was dead" *815) and "there was
no escape" (816) are his impressions. For the reasons already given, I
don't think the DEs could apparate into the DoM, or the particular
chamber where Harry finds the prophecy. They must already have been
there, having taken the lift just as Harry and his friends did. Maybe
they even unlocked all the doors but one, which even Malfoy couldn't
magically open. At any rate, it seems clear that they were already in
the chamber, waiting in the darkness for Harry to remove the prophecy
from the shelf and for Malfoy to speak before emerging from the
shadows, blocking the way in every direction with their wands held out.

Carol




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 14 20:48:25 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 20:48:25 -0000
Subject: The Grim?
In-Reply-To: <c2vv6k+t66g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c32gep+679s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92993

[This is a repost to correct an error: I forgot to mark the beginning
of my own thoughts and the end of Kathy's. The old post is being
deleted. Carol]

Kathy King wrote:
 
We know that Harry saw a book in Flourish and Blotts that showed a
Grim right after seeing the big black dog (which we later learn is
Sirius). We know that in Trelawney's class Harry had the Grim in his
tealeaves. Harry  immediately recalled the dog in the shadows of
Magnolia Crescent and also  the cover of the book Death Omens. So the
big black dog wasn't a Grim at all but was the animagus Sirius, or was
it that Sirius was a Grim? Was Sirius bad luck? The Black Manor is
called Grim-mald Place.
  
You can't choose what patronus or animagi you become, it comes from
within you. So did Sirius turn into a big black dog or a Grim? Did the
Black family curse him when he left at 16? That was about the time
that the Marauders turned into Animagus.
  
Also, Grimmald sounds very much like the dark lord that Dumbledore
defeated in 1945, Grindelwald. Wonder if there's anything with that?
 
Carol: 
The Grim/Grimmauld Place connection is interesting, but if Sirius's
animagus form were really a Grim (and if there *is* such a thing in
the Potterverse--Hermione seems to doubt it), wouldn't James, Remus,
and Sirius all have died within twenty-four hours of first seeing him?
I think that Trelawney did actually see a big black dog (Sirius) in
the tea leaves and the crystal ball, but she only thought it was a Grim.
 
To go off track a bit here, Trelawney may have more magic in her, or
more abilities as a "sibyl," than she's been given credit for. She
can't possibly have seen the real Sirius in his dog form and
associated the dog with Harry. She'd have died of a heart attack
thinking *she'd* seen the Grim! So she didn't invent the black dog in
the tea leaves and the crystal ball; she actually saw it but
interpreted it as anyone with her training would, as a Grim.
 
So, to return to Kathy's post, I don't think Sirius was a Grim or that
he was cursed by his family, but I do wonder if there's more to
Trelawney (and her tea leaves and crystal balls) than she's been given
credit for. I'd almost think that she was the person who's going to do
(or has already done) magic late in life since she seems almost
Squiblike, except that she's already given two real prophecies,
neither of them in desperate circumstances. Maybe McGonagall and
Hermione (McGonagall, Jr.) were a bit too hasty in their judgment of her?
 
Carol, with apologies to all for double posting, but if I'm confused
by my own post, I know others will be also. Besides, I've made other
corrections and clarifications, so maybe people will respond to the
post this time.




From drdara at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 14 21:06:35 2004
From: drdara at yahoo.com (danielle dassero)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 13:06:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Weasley's ages
In-Reply-To: <c2u32d+bh50@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040314210635.66893.qmail@web60706.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92994

In SS Fred says they haven't won since Charlie left.
Chap midnight duel. Since I agree that Molly would not
have let Charlie leave early, and Charlie probably
listened to his mum. And since the 93/94 schoolyear
would have been the 8 year that they would have lost
in quidditch. Then Charlie graduated in 1986. The
86/87 was year 1 lost,87/88 was year 2 lost,88/89 year
3, 89/90 year 4, 90/91 year 5,91/92 year 6,92/93 was
year 7 lost. If they had lost instead of winning then
93/94 would have been the 8th year they lost. So
depending on when Charlie's birthday was, Charlie
would have been turned 18 or 19  in 1986 that makes
him being born in 1967 or 1968. Making him 28 or 29 at
the beginning of OOP. Which would mean that JKR is
really bad at math. She is the type of writer that as
the ideas come to her she writes it down. And then not
knowing how succesful she would be,didn't stop and
look over the details like the ages. Some writers are
the type that would sit down and plan for things like
the ages. They would write out a detailed note saying
that charlie graduated in 1986 or whenever and must be
this age and them bill would be 2 years older and what
not.

And as for Bill saying how long it's been since he was
at Hogwarts, maybe since 5 years ago in GOF was the
twins 2nd year and their first on teh team. Maybe he
came down for their last Quiditch match to watch them
play because he was able to get away from his job.


DAnielle, who really thinks that while JKR writes
good, her math really sucks and so does her ability to
plan and check for the small things. LOL

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam
http://mail.yahoo.com



From carolynwhite2 at aol.com  Sun Mar 14 21:31:54 2004
From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 21:31:54 -0000
Subject: Is Remus really Lupin?   Was: Minerva McGonagall & The SS
In-Reply-To: <c306ta+4ph3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c32j0a+dnnd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92995

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" <rredordead at a...> 
wrote:
> 
> Mandy here:

> We all know JKR named Remus J. Lupin, and she loves to play 
> beautifully with the names of the characters in her stories. Remus 
> (and Romulus, the founder of Rome) were brought up from birth by a 
> she-wolf, and Lupin being the French word for wolf.  

Carolyn:
I have often wondered whether we are due to meet his twin brother at 
some point, if Remus *was* the name he was given at birth. And it was 
a bit careless of his parents to let their little boy get bitten - 
where were they, and what were they doing at the time ? Maybe the 
werewolf who bit him, was unfortunately a relative, who they thought 
was safe at the time, but turned nasty before they could get away ? 

JKR said in the recent interview that Remus was a half-blood - 
meaning Muggle & magic parent. Maybe the muggle half of the marriage 
unwittingly married into a wizard family with some dubious wolf 
ancestory. I know werewolves can't breed, but are there some 
animal/human crosses possible in the WW? Look at Centaur's for a 
start.

His father could have been a muggle called John, but his mother had a 
sad, dark secret ? Maybe it was his brother that bit him ?






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 14 22:03:23 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 22:03:23 -0000
Subject: Penelope Clearwater (Was: Ginny's development )
In-Reply-To: <c2vt0t+es5u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c32krb+ignm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92996

Heather:
<big snip>

"They were almost at King's Cross when Harry remembered something.
'Ginny - what did you see Percy doing, that he didn't want you to 
tell anyone?'
'Oh, that,' said Ginny, giggling. 'Well - Percy's got a 
girlfriend.'"
 
(But then, I do think that Penny is going to show up again in 6 or 
7 - That is not just a random pairing....).

Carol:
I agree with you. Ginny and Penny have a common bond. Ginny was
possessed by Riddle/Voldemort and Penny was petrified by his basilisk.
They also share the connection to the disgraced and alienated Percy
(who in spite of his pomposity and obtuseness, may still love them
both  in his own way).

Anyway, I do think we'll see Penny again in connection with Percy
and/or Ginny. But my question, for anyone who wants to take a stab at
it, is: 

How much do you think Penny (and the other victims of petrification
other than Hermione) knows about what happened to her? Do you think
that she knows about Tom Riddle and the diary, or that Diary!Tom was
an incarnation of Voldemort?

Even the basilisk doesn't seem to be commmon knowledge (Terry Boot
heard about it from a portrait in DD's office, OoP Am. ed. 342). The
general behavior of the students in the Hog's Head scene indicates
that they don't know much about the sorceror's/philosopher's stone,
either, despite DD's assertion to Harry in SS/PS that the whole school
knows his secret. But to return to CoS, we don't really see the
special banquet held on the night Harry rescues Ginny (we're told in
passing about the four hundred points to him and Ron securing the
house cup for Gryffindor for solving the mystery of the Heir of
Slytherin but very little else), and certainly Ginny's possession by
Diary!Tom is kept secret for her own protection. Evidently the other
details are kept secret, too. (See the brief summary near the end of
CoS, pp. 339-40 of the American edition for the little bit that's
revealed to the reader, and presumably to the students, at the
banquet: Harry and Ron are heroes, Hagrid is innocent, and Lockhart
has lost his memory and won't be returning, but nothing about the
actual events in the Chamber of Secrets.)

Which brings me back to Penny, who would be in the same position as
the younger students regarding Harry's adventures in his first year
and who would have learned little or nothing from the celebratory
banquet regarding the nature of the monster that petrified her or the
identity of the Heir of Slytherin. What, then, do you think she knows
about Tom Riddle and the diary in Harry's second year? I don't think
Ginny has confided in her because of the age difference and because
she's ashamed of what happened to her, but surely Penny would want to
know what happened to her and would have the right to know? And if she
or Ginny passed that information on to Percy, would that cause him to
think that Voldemort was destroyed along with Diary!Tom?

And what about Colin Creevey and Justin Finch-Fletchley, both of them
victims of petrification (who'd no doubt have been held back a year if
DD hadn't canceled those end-of-term exams)? Both are members of the
D.A., but do they know what happened to them in CoS? If they do, they
seem to have kept it quiet, and that's not Colin's nature.

Carol, with apologies for the length of the post, which is intended to
present what I already "know" about Penny's predicament and explain
why I think it's important (hoping this isn't sent twice!)




From greatelderone at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 14 23:44:36 2004
From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 23:44:36 -0000
Subject: Time Travel and Chuck Berry
In-Reply-To: <c20bcb+p52q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c32qp4+8j1c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92997

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Robert Jones" 
<jones.r.h.j at w...> wrote:
> But this is like the Chuck Berry paradox from the movie "Back 
> to the Future" where the Michael J. Fox character learns Chuck 
> Berry's guitar licks off Chuck's records but then teaches Chuck 
> those same licks over the telephone ? so Fox learns the licks from 
> Berry who learns them from Fox, and so on, and so on.  In effect 
the 
> earlier Chuck Berry learns his licks from the future Chuck Berry. 
> So there is no point in this loop for Chuck to actually create the 
> licks. 

But it's created. You are missing that fact that it exists. As to 
where it comes from who know? Probably the same place where space, 
time and everything else originated.

> And the same problem applies to Harry: Harry2 can make a 
> Patronus because Harry1 saw him already do it because Harry2 did it 
> because Harry1 saw . . .  At no point in the loop can Harry2 gain 
> the confidence to produce the Patronus.

Harry 2 gains it from seeing himself do it hours before suspecting 
that it was his dad. You are missing the fact that the loop keeps 
repeating infinitely. Harry I see Harry 2 accomplish it. He thinks 
it's his father then travel back in time then realizes that he was 
the one not his father which gives him the confidence to accomplish 
it. Then Harry I sees it and thinks it's James. The loop goes on and 
on with no beginning and no end.

 
> Bobby:  But my point is that JKR accepts that time-travelers can 
> change history and so if she uses it again she can do whatever she 
> wants to the plot (and that makes it a crumby plot device).

It's a simple mis-step. She figured out the concepts of the idea 
indepedently so she was bound to make a misstep. Classify this as a 
flint.




From jujupoet29 at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 15 00:31:28 2004
From: jujupoet29 at hotmail.com (sienna291973)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 00:31:28 -0000
Subject: Hermione is Umbridge
In-Reply-To: <c31u2s+i5pg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c32th0+8khf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92998

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kia" <kiatrier at y...> wrote:
> Umbridge is exactly how Hermione could be. 
> 
> 
> And might will be.


Hi Kia,

I think you make some interesting points but ultimately Hermione has 
something that Umbridge lacks completely - compassion.  We see 
Hermione quite clearly going into bat for Elf-rights.  Umbridge is 
quite clearly anti this position. For this reason, I don't think 
they are in reality anything alike.  They might share a liking for 
rules and order but Hermione will break those rules to serve 
others.  When Umbridge breaks them she serves herself.

Unless something drastic happens to Hermione to poison her heart and 
mind, I don't think she's in any danger of turning into an Umbridge.

Just my opinion. :)
Sienna







From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 15 00:44:22 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 00:44:22 -0000
Subject: LV as Blofeld/Dr Evil?
In-Reply-To: <018b01c40973$3a034b80$0400a8c0@charterpa.com>
Message-ID: <c32u96+p9p0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 92999

Taryn:
> <snip> Lord Voldemort, one of the most powerful wizards of the time,
has been beaten by a baby and a pre-teen. Sounds rather pathetic, huh?
So now he's going to prove, in front of a company of Death Eaters,
that those were flukes. He's going to set up a fair match and PROVE
that he's, by far, the better wizard. And note that by FAIR, I mean
both opponents are equipped in the same manner. Sure, Voldy would've
wiped the floor with Harry if it hadn't been for the brother wands.
But that's called a fair fight--it determines who's the better of the
two opponents.<

Carol:
Good point about the brother wands and the (nearly) fair fight. I
think that ties in with LV's marking Harry as his (future) equal: the
brother wand recognized the mark [scar] and chose Harry because of it.
And, paradoxically, Harry's possessing the brother wand reinforces
(and helps to create) the potential equality the wand itself
recognized. (Does that make sense to anyone but me?)

But regarding the second and third defeats you mention, I don't think
that the DEs, with the exception of Lucius Malfoy, knew anything about
them (except what little Nott's, Crabbe's and Goyle's sons might have
told them) until LV updated them in the graveyard scene in GoF. Even
then, LV tells them about his possession of Quirrell (654, Am. ed.),
but he says nothing whatever of the diary incident, instead skipping
from Quirrell's death to Wormtail's return (654-55). I don't think he
 knows about it himself since this is his first conversation with
Malfoy in thirteen years.

As for the DEs and what their children may have told them, I've
already stated in another post that I don't think the students,
including the DE's children, knew much about either incident,
certainly not enough to provide their fathers with much useful
information. Despite DD's remark that the whole school knows what
happened between Harry and Quirrell, the students don't seem to know
that LV was inside Quirrell's head. If they did, their later
skepticism about LV having returned is inexplicable, as is Hannah
Abbott's surprised reaction to Neville's remark about Harry thwarting
LV's attempt to steal the philosopher's/ sorceror's stone (OoP Am. ed.
342). As far as I can tell from the available evidence, all the
students knew was that Quirrell had been trying to steal the stone and
that Harry (with the help of his friends Ron and Hermione) had
thwarted him. And that's all they would be able to tell their DE
fathers about the incident.

As for the second incident, all they would know is that Harry (with
Ron's help) saved Ginny from the Heir of Slytherin and that Hagrid did
not open the Chamber of Secrets fifty years before. As I said in my
previous post (q.v.), no one except Harry's close friends seems to
know anything about the basilisk or Tom Riddle. I also don't think
that Lucius, given the humiliating results of his attempt to
resuscitate Voldemort in the shape of young Tom, is likely to tell his
fellow DEs about it. In fact, LV himself might not be too happy with
Lucius's little maneuver. Suppose it had succeeded, and the
resurrected Voldemort came face to face with his younger self in a
power struggle? Maybe Malfoy had better remain silent on that one.

Carol, who is only trying to figure out how much the DEs knew/know
about Harry's encounters with LV in Books One and two and hopes she
isn't being too repetitive




From owlery2003 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 15 00:51:26 2004
From: owlery2003 at yahoo.com (Scott Santangelo)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 16:51:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione is Umbridge
In-Reply-To: <c32th0+8khf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040315005126.34028.qmail@web60103.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93000




--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kia" <kiatrier at y...> wrote:
> Umbridge is exactly how Hermione could be. 
 And might will be.


Sienna commented:

I think you make some interesting points but ultimately Hermione has something that Umbridge lacks completely - compassion.  We see Hermione quite clearly going into bat for Elf-rights.  Umbridge is quite clearly anti this position. For this reason, I don't think they are in reality anything alike.  They might share a liking for rules and order but Hermione will break those rules to serve others.  When Umbridge breaks them she serves herself. Unless something drastic happens to Hermione to poison her heart and mind, I don't think she's in any danger of turning into an Umbridge.

Owlery2003 commented: 

Brilliant observations, Sienna!




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From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 15 01:02:27 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 01:02:27 -0000
Subject: what are the criteria for becoming a Death Eater??? and is harry really a ha
In-Reply-To: <019901c40973$b3568f60$0400a8c0@charterpa.com>
Message-ID: <c32vb3+njr2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93001

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Taryn Kimel" <amani at c...> wrote:
> kashelkar:
> Harry was born to a witch and a wizard (both from the magical
community), so isn't he a pure-blood? I think to be a half-blood (like
Voldy), one of the parents has to be non-magic person.
> 
> Taryn:
> I think it depends on who in the WW you ask. I think the term
"pureblood" implies a long history of family of pure wizarding
descent. Harry would not be considered pureblooded because his mother
was muggle-born. I think the more correct term for Harry would be
full-blood. But we also have Tom Riddle referring to Harry as a
half-blood. I think this has to do with who you ask. To TR, blood
lineage is EXTREMELY important. Lily, being a muggle-born witch, is
BARELY a witch, so Harry gets coined a half-blood by TR.

Carol:
It's not just Tom Riddle who calls Harry a half-blood. Dumbledore does
the same, and since he generally speaks for JKR, he must be correct.
Someone on this list (I don't know who, sorry) explained that both Tom
and Harry have two magical grandparents and two Muggle grandparents,
which is why they're both half-bloods.

In fact, as far as blood alone is concerned, Lily is a Muggle. It's
only her magical powers that make her a witch. (We're not talking
genetics here, only bloodlines or genealogy.) So Harry is as much a
half-blood as a "half and half" like Seamus or Tom Riddle. 

I hope that clears it up for you. It does for me. :-)

Carol




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 15 01:29:59 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 01:29:59 -0000
Subject: And then there were none.
In-Reply-To: <c30rh0+4f4q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c330un+edfm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93002

BrwNeil at a... wrote:
That leaves only Mr. Moony, our favorite DADA professor.
 
Will he be the only Marauder to live or will all four friends meet 
death before the end of the series?
 
greatelderone responded:
I agree Lupin is going to buy it. Why else would one need a silver 
hand for, but to kill werewolves. Furthermore lets add Snape to the 
kill list though I for one want him to become Headmaster at the end.

Carol:
I agree about Lupin and the silver hand, but please don't add Snape to
the kill list! I don't think he'll be headmaster (he'll only be about
39 at the end of the series), but I can see him as DADA instructor,
head of Slytherin (still), and assistant headmaster to McGonagall, the
new headmistress. Just not dead or a traitor to Dumbledore. I hate to
ask this question since I'm not sure I want to know the answer, but
why did you add Snape to the list?

Carol




From jmmears at comcast.net  Mon Mar 15 01:54:12 2004
From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 01:54:12 -0000
Subject: Hermione is Umbridge
In-Reply-To: <c32th0+8khf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c332c4+k5bv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93003


> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kia" <kiatrier at y...> wrote:
> > Umbridge is exactly how Hermione could be. 

Sienna replied:

> Hi Kia,
> 
> I think you make some interesting points but ultimately Hermione 
has 
> something that Umbridge lacks completely - compassion.  We see 
> Hermione quite clearly going into bat for Elf-rights.  Umbridge is 
> quite clearly anti this position. For this reason, I don't think 
> they are in reality anything alike.  
.

Umbridge may not be in favor of Elf-rights, but I wasn't exactly 
impressed with the depth of Hermione's compassion in book 5.
The thing that surprised me most in OOP (apart from Sirius' untimely 
exit) was the strange and unexpected sense of pity I found myself 
feeling for Rita Skeeter. In GoF I didn't find her sympathetic in 
the least and was delighted to see her get her comeuppance, although 
IMO Hermione would have been much smarter if she had turned her over 
to Dumbledore.  I expected this decision to backfire on her in OOP.  
Instead we see a broken, apparently poverty stricken Rita, being 
blackmailed (sorry, there's no other word for it) into using her 
skills to further the agenda of a 15/16 year-old schoolgirl.  Not 
only does she have to write what Hermione wants her to write, she 
has to do it for free (although I imagine that Luna's father 
profited financially).

Anyway, I don't necessarily agree that Hermione's compassion gets in 
the way of her ruthlessness in dealing with people she just doesn't 
like.  I think that Kia's point is that because we're reading from 
Harry's POV and that Hermione's clearly meant to be a sympathetic 
character, we're supposed to give her a pass when she does something 
we'd find unforgivable in a character we're not supposed to like.  
Personally, I think that JKR is setting us (and Hermione) up for a 
big shock when the chickens come home to roost, but if she isn't 
then I'm going to like Hermione less and less over the course of the 
last 2 books.

Sienna continued:

They might share a liking for 
> rules and order but Hermione will break those rules to serve 
> others.  When Umbridge breaks them she serves herself.

Well, she's also serving Cornelius Fudge and the current policies of 
the MoM.  She's really quite the loyal supporter from Percy's POV.

Again, I'm not convinced that Hermione only breaks rules for the 
benefit of others.  Her actions toward Rita Skeeter are only 
partially for Harry's benefit.  She's got a personal grudge against 
Skeeter for blackening her name in The Daily Prophet and maybe even 
more importantly, calling her a "silly little girl" in public, which 
has Hermione almost spitting nails.  She's out for revenge.

In Marietta's case, there was little benefit to Harry or the DA 
members from Hermione's jinxing the DA list. She could have set up 
some way of warning the members so they would have time to excape 
the minute someone began to expose them.  Instead, Harry gets caught 
and Dumbledore is forced out of Hogwarts just when he's needed 
most.  Again, Marietta's spots are pure vengance on Hermione's part.

Sienna concludes:
 
> Unless something drastic happens to Hermione to poison her heart 
and 
> mind, I don't think she's in any danger of turning into an 
Umbridge.


I don't really think Hermione's going to turn into another Umbridge 
either, but that doesn't mean that she's not headed down a morally 
uncertain path at this point in the story.  I'm really glad that Kia 
posted this essay and am curious to hear reactions from other 
listees.

Jo S.




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 15 02:12:06 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 02:12:06 -0000
Subject: How can LV win the war in three weeks
In-Reply-To: <c2vqqc+3va4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c333dm+eujg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93004

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" <nkafkafi at y...> wrote:
> > Hickengruendler:
> > There is a difference: You can't learn the Unforgivables in 
> Hogwarts. 
> > According to the Fake Moody, you must be very powerful to do them 
> > (and according to Bellatrix you must enjoy to do so. Although this 
> > maybe isn't true for those under the Imperius Curse). Krum, on the 
> > other hand, learned the Unforgivables. They are taught in 
> Durmstrang. 
> 
> 
> Neri:
> ARRRRGH! Those pesky little details! OK, thank you Hickengruendler 
> for pointing this bug. A little change in programming is clearly 
> needed. First, we have to find a wizard who had already learned the 
> Imperius curse (we could start our plot to take over the world in 
> Durmstrang). Then we imperio this wizard and give him these four 
> directions:
> 
> 1. Be a good servant of the Dark Lord.
> 2. Go and imperio other wizards.
> 3. If the imperio'ed wizard is not powerful, order him to be a good 
> servant of the Dark Lord.
> 4. If the imperio'ed wizard is powerful, teach him the Imperius curse 
> and give him these four directions.
> 
> Conquering the world this way will clearly take more time than my 
> first estimation. It depends mainly on the average time it takes to 
> teach the Imperius curse to a powerful wizard and the percentage of 
> powerful wizards out of the whole wizard population, but we will get 
> there in the end.
> 
> Neri

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" <nkafkafi at y...> wrote:
> > Hickengruendler:
> > There is a difference: You can't learn the Unforgivables in 
> Hogwarts. 
> > According to the Fake Moody, you must be very powerful to do them 
> > (and according to Bellatrix you must enjoy to do so. Although this 
> > maybe isn't true for those under the Imperius Curse). Krum, on the 
> > other hand, learned the Unforgivables. They are taught in 
> Durmstrang. 
> 
> 
> Neri:
> ARRRRGH! Those pesky little details! OK, thank you Hickengruendler 
> for pointing this bug. A little change in programming is clearly 
> needed. First, we have to find a wizard who had already learned the 
> Imperius curse (we could start our plot to take over the world in 
> Durmstrang). Then we imperio this wizard and give him these four 
> directions:
> 
> 1. Be a good servant of the Dark Lord.
> 2. Go and imperio other wizards.
> 3. If the imperio'ed wizard is not powerful, order him to be a good 
> servant of the Dark Lord.
> 4. If the imperio'ed wizard is powerful, teach him the Imperius curse 
> and give him these four directions.
> 
> Conquering the world this way will clearly take more time than my 
> first estimation. It depends mainly on the average time it takes to 
> teach the Imperius curse to a powerful wizard and the percentage of 
> powerful wizards out of the whole wizard population, but we will get 
> there in the end.
> 
> Neri


I like Hickengruendler's response, but since it's only caused you to
modify your position rather than abandon it (not that it isn't clever,
but it would spoil the plot!), how about this? First, we know that the
Imperius Curse was fairly widespread in VWI, but it didn't do what you
suggest it would. Why not?

Maybe, first of all, "Be a good servant to the Dark Lord" too vague a
command to enforce through Imperio. Exactly how should the victim go
about it? Also I think that most Imperius Curses are very short-lived,
lasting only until the person has obeyed a specific command (e.g.
"Crucio Cedric Diggory" in Krum's case or try to steal the prophecy in
Bode's). A long-term Imperius Curse, like the ones placed on Mr.
Crouch, Barty Jr., and Trunk!Moody, has to be periodically reinforced,
especially if the person being Imperioed is a strong wizard who can
fight off the curse.

Also, the DEs seem to have specialties. Bellatrix's, of course, is the
Cruciatus Curse (which may be the favorite of the other two Lestranges
as well); Macnair seems to like destroying dangerous beasts and
creatures, whether they're hippogriffs or giants; Travers was (is?) a
murderer; and Rookwood was a spy. Mulciber specialized in the Imperius
Curse and "forced countless people to do horrific things" (GoF 590),
but he's the only one mentioned so far who seems to have been
especially good at it.

So I don't think it would work for LV to send out his DEs to Imperio
everyone in the WW. He uses that weapon when it and the other two
Unforgiveables when they suit his needs, but he must have other
weapons in his arsenal. We'll see some of them in the next book, I'm
sure: dragons, giants, poison, maybe? (I want Harry to use a bezoar
and apply a lesson from Snape.) More dementors? (Though I'm a bit
tired of them, too.) Just please not mass hypnosis via the Imperius Curse.

Carol, who wonders whether a Patronus actually destroys a dementor or
only disempowers it momentarily

Carol




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 15 02:34:49 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 02:34:49 -0000
Subject: Origins of Sirius/Keeping the wolf from the door
In-Reply-To: <c31mir+bfjd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c334o9+rrnu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93005

Alshain: <interesting "Dog Star" info snipped> The astronomer Manilus,
in the first century CE, said about it that:
 
"Sirius (the Dog) will fashion unbridled spirits and impetuous 
hearts; it will bestow on its sons billows of anger, and draw upon 
them the hatred and fear of the whole populace... Their hearts start 
throbbing at the slightest cause, and when speech comes their tongues 
rave and bark, and constant gnashing imparts the sound of teeth to 
their utterance. Their failings are intensified by alcohol, which 
gives them strength and fans their savage wrath to flame." 
 
Does it sound like anyone in the HP-verse?
 
Kneasy: 
Good stuff. <snip> I've been patching together a not so serious post
on names which I must finish <snip>. One of those that I list is
Regulus, brother of Sirius. Regulus (trans. little king), brightest
star in the constellation Leo. 
Now I'd be interested in seeing how you could twist(!) the facts and 
mythology to suit a character that doen't seem very regal or
lion-like. Not trying to lure you into a pitfall, my post concentrates
on a different theme, but I would be entertained if you could do it.

Carol:
Great post, Alshain! I'd be "entertained" (enlightened) if you'd do
one for Bellatrix (woman warrior?), which of course you know is a
bright star in the constellation Orion. (I'll bet Bella's Patronus is
an Amazon.)

Carol, with apologies for the short post




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 15 03:06:33 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 03:06:33 -0000
Subject: Hermione is Umbridge
In-Reply-To: <c31u2s+i5pg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c336jp+drjp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93006

Kia wrote:
A while ago I run across an old interview of JKR (I run across 
only one, but she said it twice 
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2000/1000-nbc-couric.htm
 
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/1999/109
9-pressclubtransc.html
in which Ms Rowling stated (jokingly I presumed): If she had known how
problematic the pronounciation of Hermione would be, she would have
called her Jane. (paraphrasing.)
 
I went... "Jane"?? (and instead of thinking "Jane Austen" - which 
is the closest guess one would wager with Rowling and her 
Austen idolisation) I went "Didn't I hear that name in OotP?" And 
of course it is in OotP: it is our least favourite character's name: 
Dolores Jane Umbridge (not Rowling's though - Isn't that 
strange that she likes Vernon less than Umbridge?)
 
 
So I pondered how Rowling could even consider giving her most 
sadistic character Hermione's alternative name and I pondered 
and mulled over and meditated... until I realised that nothing is 
more uninteresting than a speculation based on something that 
is said jokingly and I abandoned my line of thought.
  
But then - to my delight - our dearest Joanne answered a 
question after Ron, Ginny and Hermione's middle names with: 
"Middle names: Ginny is Molly, of course, Hermione 'Jane' and 
Ron, poor boy, is Bilius." (Link: 
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/JKRWorldBookDay2004.html

I leave Bilius and Molly to other people for now and concentrate 
on the fact that Umbridge and Hermione share the same middle 
name. Jane. 
 
Both Hermione and Umbridge like rules. They like to enforce 
them. They like having the power to enforce them be it through 
prefecture or being a High Inquisitor. <snip>
They carry each other's middle name deservedly. The real 
difference between them besides looks, age, conscience and 
other "unimportant" details (Yes, I am sarcastic.) is that they are 
on opposing sides and Hermione's side is the one, we 
sympathise with. <snip>

Carol:
I'll leave the defense of Hermione to other posters (I imagine quite a
few will disagree with your thesis and one or two will take umbrage at
it). 

Let me just say that I disagree with your idea primarily because JKR
has repeatedly stated that she likes Hermione and that Hermione is an
exaggerated version of her younger self. So let me posit a simpler
explanation:

Jane and Jo (also Joan, which is very close to Joane, Rowling's
spelling of her name) are all variants of the same name, the feminine
version of John. So JKR (seriously or jokingly) considered giving her
fictional younger self a variant of her own first name, and actually
did give it to her as a middle name, an indication of her
identification with that character. Oddly, she gave the same middle
name to Umbridge, with whom she couldn't possibly identify, perhaps as
a sort of in-joke with an audience of one. But notice that Remus Lupin
has the same middle name in its masculine form. He's the teacher she
likes best, the one she would most want as a teacher for her own
children. So maybe she identifies with him, too, or wants to link him
to Hermione in some way. (Interesting that he's half-Muggle, BTW,
another connection with Hermione. And as someone on this list pointed
out, possibly Kneasy, that horrible cardigan that Umbridge wears over
her robes suggests that maybe she's a Muggle-born, too.)

John, BTW, is Hebrew for "God is gracious" and was the name of the
most beloved apostle, so, given that we know JKR is a Christian, the
choice of that middle name for Remus may suggest a special place in
her heart or in his relationship to Dumbledore. (It's a stretch, I
realize, and I know Pippin won't like it, but I wanted to mention it
as a possibility, anyway.) I'm not trying to suggest that Hermione is
Harry's most beloved disciple or that Umbridge is Fudge's (smirk!),
just looking at the etymology of the names and their possible
significance. I think the Jo/Jane/John connection is sustainable even
if the etymology itself isn't relevant to the characters.

Carol




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 15 03:46:35 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 03:46:35 -0000
Subject: Remus J. Lupin
In-Reply-To: <c31tq8+d6q4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c338ur+or68@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93007

> Heather says:
<snip>
> How does he know everyone's name in his class?  Maybe he's just 
> really good with names.  It is a few days into the school year 
> before he has Harry's class for the first time.  I'm sure that Lupin 
> is curious about Harry (since he knew his parents well) and his 
> classmates and has taken the time to do a little 'research' about 
> them before his class.  Just guessing on this one though.....


Harry's identity would be obvious to Lupin at first glance because he
knew James so well and Harry looks very much like the young James
except for his eyes and his scar. I have no problem with Lupin knowing
who he is on the train (in any case, he hears Ron or Hermione asking
is Harry is all right) or with his calling Harry by his first name
then or later. I also think it's part of his persona as a teacher to
call all students by their first names. (Maybe a favorite teacher
named Professor Dumbledore addressed him by his?)

Since the classes are so small (ten children in his first lesson), he
may already have learned their names as you suggest. Or he could have
called the names (except for Harry's and Neville's) from the register.
He would know who Neville was from his reaction to Snape's remark
("this class contains Neville Longbottom," etc.,) and  from Neville's
resemblance to his mother, whom he knew from the original Order and
possibly from school.)

I *do* think he was actually asleep rather than listening in on the
conversation as he was ill and exhausted, but I don't think it was
coincidence that he was in the same car as Harry. Dumbledore, who
somehow magically knew that Harry had moved from the cupboard to the
smallest bedroom, would know that Harry and his friends habitually
chose the last car on the train, and I think Dumbledore told Lupin to
choose that same car. I do wonder why he seemed so untroubled by the
dementor and I also wonder how he knew or guessed so soon that
Hermione's boggart had to do with studying and might be laughed at by
the other kids, which is the only reason I can think of why he didn't
give her a turn.

Anyway, (in response to the person who originally asked the question),
I definitely don't think that Lupin is James. How could he be if he
turns into a werewolf? If James were somehow still alive and a
polyjuiced Remus died in his place in Godric's Hollow, James wouldn't
be able to transform himself into the dead Remus after all these
years. Where would he get the hair for the polyjuice potion, for one?
And the skill at Transfiguration that enabled him (after years of
study and practice) would not have enabled him to turn into another
person. (I'm not even sure that a metamorphagus like Tonks could
assume the exact shape, features, and voice of another real, living
person.)

Carol




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 15 04:01:05 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 04:01:05 -0000
Subject: How can LV win the war in three weeks
In-Reply-To: <c324ic+blrt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c339q1+mqs0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93008

Neri:
Details, details! This is why I never became a professional 
programmer. This thread does demonstrate, however, the potential of 
open-source code. In one week we could probably design between us the 
ultimate, fail-proof, world-conquering Imperius virus. <snip>

Correcting all these bugs that you and others were quick to point 
out, I can see that the elegance of the original 3 directions in my 
Imperius Virus v.1.0 won't last a day. What we need is a sub-program. 
We could write all the complex directions on a peace of parchment, 
and put also a picture of LV in it, and of course pictures of all his 
henchmen. Then all we need to do is to give this parchment to the 
first imperio'ed wizard and order him to follow the directions in it. 
The directions in the parchment will look something like:
 ----------------------------
 1. Be a good servant of the Dark Lord (see Fig. 1).
 2. ...
 3. ...
 <a long list of directions and conditions here>
 .
 .
 37. Photocopy this parchment, give it to the wizard you imperio'ed 
 and order him to follow the directions in it.
> -----------------------------
<snip>
> 
> Neri, who sincerely hopes that LV does not lurk in HPFGU and will 
> never find out about this.


I doubt that LV owns (owned) a photocopier and besides, he died (will
die) in June 1998 (the end of Book Seven). Either that or the WW has
been destroyed and we Muggles are next. <wicked grin>

Carol




From technomad at intergate.com  Mon Mar 15 04:06:41 2004
From: technomad at intergate.com (ericoppen)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 04:06:41 -0000
Subject: Hermione is Umbridge
In-Reply-To: <c31u2s+i5pg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c33a4h+uj5g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93009

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kia" <kiatrier at y...> wrote:
>> 
> They carry each other's middle name deservedly. The real 
> difference between them besides looks, age, conscience and 
> other "unimportant" details (Yes, I am sarcastic.) is that they are 
> on opposing sides and Hermione's side is the one, we 
> sympathise with.
> 
> If Pansy Parkinson or even Cho Chang had been responsible for 
> "The Marietta Incident", we would have hated Pansy or Cho for it. 
> Fandom would have them tarred and feathered. 

I don't know about that, myself.  People who tattle to authority are 
seldom very popular (I rather imagine the atmosphere in Marietta's 
dorm was...a little chilly for her...for quite a long time, spots or 
no spots.  Considering what the Weasley twins could have come up 
with, I could make a case that Marietta got off fairly easy---what 
are a few more spots when you're a teenager?

> Umbridge is sadism. Umbridge is cruelty. 
> Umbridge is the lack of compassion. Umbridge is selfishness. 
> Umbridge is hunger for power. Umbridge is everything we 
> identify as evil or ingredient for evil, but she isn't Voldemort. 
The 
> difference between her and Voldemort is the intention. Umbridge 
> believes that she can do good, that she is doing good, that what 
> she does is constructive, that she is the epitome of morality. 
> What stops Umbridge from being evil and what keeps her 
> human is her belief that she does good. Her morality is totally 
> screwed up, but if you screw up your eyes and read OotP 
> upside-down, you might realise how - from her point of view - 
> she is doing the right thing and nothing but the right thing. And 
> you might also see how she believes that the means justify the 
> ends.
> 
> And now if get your eyes and your book back to normal, read 
> Hermione and you'll see that she also believes that she is doing 
> the right thing and that the means justify the ends. She isn't 
> using the Cruciatus -- yet, but I do not doubt for a second that if 
it 
> was doable for Hermione to do so and it appeared necessary to 
> her, she would use it in a heart beat.
> 
> Umbridge is exactly how Hermione could be. 
> 
> 
> And might will be.
> 
> 
> 
> Kia

Very thought-provoking essay.  I have said myself, on this list, that 
I thought Hermione had a pretty steely, ruthless streak under 
that "good girl, gets good grades" exterior.  As someone else pointed 
out, she blackmailed Rita Skeeter.  She also aided and abetted a 
notorious escaped prisoner's escape, nearly ruined her own health 
with a Time-Turner to take more classes than normal, and stole potion 
supplies from the single most feared teacher at Hogwarts.  

The supplies theft was one of the earlier instances where we could 
see the other side of Hermione Granger.  Personally, in her boots, 
I'd have at least looked into obtaining the proper supplies from a 
Diagon Alley supplier---AFAICR they never even thought of that, 
although I would think that Snape would know _just_ what was and was 
not in his supplies cupboard, and when he noticed things missing, he 
would probably be able to figure out what it could be used for.  

But Hermione chose to steal the supplies, and apparently did so with 
perfect icy aplomb.  If she'd been raised on the British equivalent 
of "the wrong side of the tracks," and had had a lifetime's 
experience of dealing with angry/suspicious adults and authority 
figures, she couldn't have done it better.  

She may be on the right side, but I for one would not want to be 
standing between Hermione Granger and something she decided she 
wanted badly enough.  She's no Umbridge (she's much too 
compassionate) but she has a very ruthless, pragmatic streak about 
what needs to be done.




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 15 04:37:26 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 04:37:26 -0000
Subject: Snape and the MOM
In-Reply-To: <c32bni+imqp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c33bu6+rv1r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93010

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman"
<susiequsie23 at s...> wrote:
> Carol:
> > I also don't think that Snape has to report everything that 
> > happens at Hogwarts, so there's no reason for him to say anything 
> > about Umbridge. He also would have no way of *instantly* notifying 
> > LV that Harry was missing
> 
> Susan:
> How do we know that, Carol?  Didn't DD tell Harry at the end of OoP 
> that Order members have "more reliable means of communication" than 
> fireplaces?  He didn't explain what those means are but left it open 
> for a futute revelation.  (Fawkes, for one, seems to have some 
> pretty powerful magical abilities; I wonder if he can't provide 
> almost instantaneous communication?)  Anyway, if DD & the Order have 
> such means, why might not Voldy & his henchmen/women?  
> 

The means of communication DD talks about are for members of the
Order, not for Snape communicating with LV. Whatever means Snape has
for communicating with DD (and I think he must have used them to
summon DD to Grimmauld Place on the night of the MoM battle), we can
be sure he doesn't use the same means to communicate with LV. He's
certainly not going to communicate with LV using Fawkes. We can also
be pretty sure that Crouch Jr. communicated with LV by owl (the eagle
owl dream almost certainly refers to a real eagle owl that Harry sees
flying over the Forbidden Forest--I can look up the quote if you need
it). I'm still convinced, BTW, that Snape's primary means of
communication with LV and the DEs is some sort of arrangement with
Malfoy. If there were some sort of instrument in his office that he
uses, wouldn't Crouch Jr. have found it in his search?


Carol:
> Anyway, I don't think he reported to Voldemort that night; he
> was too busy contacting other people and searching the forest for
> Harry. 
> 
> Susan:
> Totally ignoring the argument at hand (whether Snape did or didn't 
> contact Voldy that night), I would argue only that if more efficient 
> means of communication exist, as DD said, why would time constraints 
> prevent Snape (or any other adult player that night) from sending 
> out important communication?  How much time does it take to jot a 
> note or send a messenger?  

Carol:
But that wouldn't be *instant,* which was my point above. 
 
Susan:
> (For what it's worth, on the argument at hand, I don't think Snape 
> did contact Voldy that night, but I do think he might have been able 
> to had that been his choice.)

Carol:
In which case, he'd be in a lot of trouble with LV, right? That was
the original argument.

BTW, I've almost lost track of what we're arguing here. My main
position is still:

1) Snape was the "one who has left us forever" (a correct judgment on
LV's part, though the part about being killed was forestalled. See
point 2.)
2) Snape, probably through Malfoy, persuaded LV that he couldn't
apparate to the graveyard and that he's still faithful.
3) This partial truth enabled Snape to continue his work for the
Order, which apparently consists of finding out what the Dark Lord is
telling his Death Eaters.
4) With LV's *real* henchmen defeated in the battle of the MoM, LV
(and possibly the imprisoned Malfoy) will look for a scapegoat and
will probably realize that Snape must be in some way responsible for
sending in the "enemy," which will return him to the "left us forever"
position. (This is the point I've been arguing in this particular thread.)
5) Even if that doesn't happen, Snape's task of finding out what LV is
saying to his Death Eaters will almost certainly become much more
difficult and dangerous now that his chief contact, Malfoy, is in Azkaban.

I realize that the part about his chief contact being Malfoy is an
assumption but there's canon to support it. I haven't read any
arguments that convincingly contradict any of these points, and I
think the recent chat lends additional support to the original key
point, number one. I have read your arguments, Susan. They just don't
seem strong enough to convince me. If it matters, I'll be quite happy
if points 4 and 5 turn out to be wrong, but I don't think they will.

At least you and I agree that Snape is brave, intelligent, and loyal
to Dumbledore. Maybe we should let it rest there?

Carol




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 15 04:38:48 2004
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 04:38:48 -0000
Subject: Hermione is Umbridge
In-Reply-To: <c33a4h+uj5g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c33c0o+q3hb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93011

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ericoppen" <technomad at i...> 
wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kia" <kiatrier at y...> wrote:
> > > 
> > If Pansy Parkinson or even Cho Chang had been responsible for 
> > "The Marietta Incident", we would have hated Pansy or Cho for it. 
> > Fandom would have them tarred and feathered. 
> 
> I don't know about that, myself.  People who tattle to authority 
are 
> seldom very popular (I rather imagine the atmosphere in Marietta's 
> dorm was...a little chilly for her...for quite a long time, spots 
or 
> no spots.  Considering what the Weasley twins could have come up 
> with, I could make a case that Marietta got off fairly easy---what 
> are a few more spots when you're a teenager?


Oh, yes, absolutely, Marietta got what she deserved, no doubt about 
that, IMO.  I was a little upset when Shacklebolt played with her 
memory, because that was adult doing things to a child, but even this 
action  was understandable, since this is war.

But I was not bothered  at the least about the counteppance Marietta 
got from her peers, because she betrayed them. It really does not 
matter to me who did that - Hermione or anybody else.


> She may be on the right side, but I for one would not want to be 
> standing between Hermione Granger and something she decided she 
> wanted badly enough.  She's no Umbridge (she's much too 
> compassionate) but she has a very ruthless, pragmatic streak about 
> what needs to be done.

I agree with you. Hermione was ruthless in OoP. I do think that JKR  
will let her be wrong, very very wrong in her predictions for once 
and very soon. She needs to fall and hurt and badly. She needs to 
larn this lesson. Still, I don't think she is in danger of becoming 
Umbridge, though.


Alla




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 15 05:01:26 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 05:01:26 -0000
Subject: Tom Riddle's Birth (Re: JKR Chat  "The Crucial ...")
In-Reply-To: <c32c14+f0gh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c33db6+e3bb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93012

> Jen Reese:
 JKR's comment on the chat indicates there are additional 
> circumstances about Tom Riddle's birth that we haven't heard. 
> Perhaps even *Tom* wasn't privvy to this information either? Diary!
> Tom in COS and LV at the graveyard are the two instances where we 
> get information about Tom's past. Assuming Tom was told much of his 
> history at the Muggle orphanage, then pieced together his own 
> version of events from digging around once he got to Hogwarts (where 
> he discovered he was Heir of Slytherin), I'd say there's a lot of 
> room for unintentional error and omission in his self-reported 
> history. 
> 
> Could there have been events around his birth that led to Memory 
> charms on the Muggle orphanage personnel? Did the mid-wife exclude 
> certain pertinent facts? Were there inexplicable events that the 
> Muggles chose to overlook, much like the Dursleys with Harry?
> 
> It's not that I reject the psychological model when examining 
> Harry's and Tom's childhoods, I'm just curious if what we know about 
> Tom is accurate.


I really, really hope that his mother (or the midwife) didn't cast any
sort of charm. It's one thing to have Harry owe his life to his
mother's love. He grew up essentially good and decent without knowing
that. (He doesn't know about the charm, if there was one, even now;
only about the "ancient magic" involving his mother's self-sacrifice.)
It's a completely different thing for Tom/Voldemort's evil nature to
be in any way traceable to his mother, who also in a sense died for
him, since if it weren't for his birth, she'd be alive.

Nor does his father's behavior, however harsh and irresponsible and
generally reprehensible, excuse Tom's choice to murder Myrtle, taking
out his hatred of his Muggle father on an innocent girl because her
parents, too, were Muggles. The murder of his father and grandparents,
though he had a motive for one of the three killings, was also an act
of pure choice and pure evil. Even if his father had murdered his
mother and left him in a field to die he would not be justified in
taking the law into his own hands and murdering him. And the
grandparents, so far as we know, had done nothing worse than having
Tom's father as a son.

Yes, Tom had a difficult life, but many children throughout history
have been abandoned by their fathers (or mothers). Many children have
been rejected and placed in orphanages. But the majority of those
children don't become murderers. Nor do they make the conscious choice
to carry out the "noble work" of some dead predecessor whose goal was
genocide.

Whatever the circumstances of Tom's birth (which I also will find
interesting), they can't take away his responsibility for the deaths
he caused as a boy or as a man. He knew good from evil and consciously
chose evil. And that, not the details of his birth and childhood, is
what distinguishes him from Harry, who will not, I think we can safely
state, be murdering Vernon or Petunia in Book 6 or 7.

Carol




From jujupoet29 at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 15 06:11:06 2004
From: jujupoet29 at hotmail.com (sienna291973)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 06:11:06 -0000
Subject: And then there were none.
In-Reply-To: <c330un+edfm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c33hdq+o27t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93013

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
> Carol:
> I agree about Lupin and the silver hand, but please don't add 
Snape to
> the kill list! I don't think he'll be headmaster (he'll only be 
about
> 39 at the end of the series), but I can see him as DADA instructor,
> head of Slytherin (still), and assistant headmaster to McGonagall, 
the
> new headmistress. Just not dead or a traitor to Dumbledore. I hate 
to
> ask this question since I'm not sure I want to know the answer, but
> why did you add Snape to the list?
> 
> Carol

NO! Not Lupin... not Lupin... Already one of my favourites is gone 
(RIP Sirius), I couldn't handle it if Remus went as well (although 
the silver hand is very foreboding I admit).

Sienna
(Who believes Lupin deserves happiness and safety and a nice new 
robe)




From kking0731 at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 15 00:36:18 2004
From: kking0731 at hotmail.com (Kathy King)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 19:36:18 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione is Umbridge
Message-ID: <Sea2-F59Pmxd22RQY3W0001071e@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93014


Hi Kia,

I had wrote about this very same topic last week but didnt have the 
brilliant analogy's to it as you have described, only the same question of 
connection of the two middle names during JKR's latest interview. Hermione's 
by the way in the interview, was the only middle name amongst the three that 
was quotationed. I would like to add to your comment if I may and say that 
if you use this theory of yours:
snip:

>Both Hermione and Umbridge like rules. They like to enforce
>them. They like having the power to enforce them be it through
>prefecture or being a High Inquisitor. They like to break them, if
>they deem it necessary, being by trying the Cruciatus on
>students or leading teachers to an almost certain death. Both
>have a sadistic or at least cruel streak - Umbridge and her quill,
>Hermione and her parchment. Both are not above blackmail.
>Both are not above abusing their power. Both do what they deem
>necessary to do to keep the world the way they want it. Both are
>ruthless. Both are followers - to a degree at least.

>What stops Umbridge from being evil and what keeps her
>human is her belief that she does good. Her morality is totally
>screwed up, but if you screw up your eyes and read OotP
>upside-down, you might realise how - from her point of view -
>she is doing the right thing and nothing but the right thing. And
>you might also see how she believes that the means justify the
>ends.

Add this to Hermione's elf rights and bingo same, same.  Nothing anyone 
seems to say to Hermione about her elf right act seems to affect her, she 
still is in persuit for what she believes is "their" own good, even if it 
isn't.

I dont like the idea of Hermione being related to someone of such little 
character but it sure seems to ring true.


Kathy

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From astratrf at aol.com  Mon Mar 15 00:42:56 2004
From: astratrf at aol.com (astratrf)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 00:42:56 -0000
Subject: halfbloods?  (WAS: RE:  Tom Riddle's House)
In-Reply-To: <20040314100950.2473.qmail@web61106.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c32u6g+sv1g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93015

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Elihu Falk 
<falkelihu at y...> wrote:
> Bonny:
>  
> Nowhere, in any of the books, is it stated that Tom Riddle, a.k.a 
Lord Voldemort, was in Slytherin house. 
>  
> Elihu:
>  
> If I remember correctly, Hagrid says that he was, together with 
the statement that all dark wizards were Slytherins.
>  
> Bonny (cont.):
>  
> There are various things that make his membership of 
Slytherin house a little dubious. For starters, there is the obvious 
question of his being a half-blood.
>  
> Elihu:
>  
> The Sorting Hat wanted to put Harry in Slytherin, and he to is a 
half-blood.

Now me (Astra, who hopes she's doing this right!):
Is there, anywhere in the books, movies or interviews with JKR, a 
better way of defining magical parentage than just pureblood, 
half-blood or muggleborn?  Riddle's parents were  a witch and a 
muggle; Harry's were both wizard folk, though his mother was 
muggleborn.  I would think there would/should be a separate 
term to reflect this difference. Of course, to the elitist, anything
but 
pureblood is "second-class", but we're mostly reasonable folk 
here, yes?  
Maybe we could create our own terms where they would be 
helpful.  After all, most of us know what happened to an  
attempted post when someone mentions "Yahoomort"!
-Astra





From rgbmcl at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 15 00:55:16 2004
From: rgbmcl at hotmail.com (rgbmcl)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 00:55:16 -0000
Subject: What would you think if.....
In-Reply-To: <c2tjai+db4o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c32utk+u2re@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93016

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" 
<justcarol67 at y...> wrote:
 
> The suggestion that Harry must commit murder or be murdered is 
Harry's
> own interpretation of the prophecy, and time and again, Harry has 
been
> wrong in his interpretations and predictions. I think he's wrong 
again
> this time. As for the Unforgiveable Curses, they're unforgiveable 
for
> a reason--they contaminate the soul (and the WW does believe in 
souls
> or the Dementors would be powerless). (I think Tom Riddle placed
> himself beyond redemption when he used them on his father and
> grandparents.) 

First of all, I absolutely agree with this.  Unforgivable curses are 
unforgivable for reason - yes they do contaminate, scar, etc..  But 
this is precisely why I think Harry should be made, by JKR, to use 
it.  I think you misunderstood what I was saying.  I want him to use 
AK, not because it's best for Harry, but precisely because it is 
not.  This isn't for any moral reason, but for an aesthetic one.  
Literarily, it works better.  If Harry, by the end of the series, has 
somehow found a way to remain completely uncontaminated, it totally 
saps the power from the evil LV has created in the WW.  If the one 
character in the story who is closer to LV than anyone else somehow 
manages to escape unscarred/uncontaminated, how powerful and how evil 
could LV have been anyway?  Literarily, a contaminated Harry works 
better - like Frodo in LOTR who can never go home again, or the 
goodbye between Pooh and Christopher Robin.  It provides a much more 
poignant ending than George killing the dragon, or whatever.  I think 
JKR has been slowing setting up over the last five books the 
seriousness of a kind of all-pervading plague that is LV.  If she 
just white-washes it away in Book 7, it undermines the potency of the 
evil he has brought about.  

> If it's absolutely necessary to kill, it can be done
> without using unforgiveable curses or other Dark methods such as
> poison or even more Muggle-like methods. Stabbing LV with Godric
> Gryffindor's sword would still be murder, just as it would have been
> murder for Sirius to stab Scabbers/Peter with a twelve-inch knife.

Understand, I don't even care if Harry actually uses AK, I just see 
it as the simplest means to give due gravity to Harry's act of 
murder, whatever the definition, and LV's reign of terror.  
(Incidently, Harry's already used an unforgivable curse, if a not 
entirely sucessful one, on BL in the MoM).

> Notice that Harry saves Peter (later) not because he doesn't think
> Peter deserves to die but because he doesn't want Sirius and Lupin 
to
> commit murder. I don't think JKR wants Harry to commit murder, 
either.
> There must be some better way, some more noble way, that would 
enable
> him to rid the world of evil's representative without resorting to
> evil himself. 

I think you're right.  I don't think anyone who wants what's best for 
Harry wants him to commit murder.  I don't think JKR does, but I 
don't think she wanted to kill Sirius either.  I don't even want 
Harry to commit murder.  But I do want what's best for the series, 
and in this particular case, I think the two interests conflict.  So 
three cheers for murderer Harry.





From kking0731 at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 15 01:30:21 2004
From: kking0731 at hotmail.com (Kathy King)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 20:30:21 -0500
Subject: Tom Riddle Jr's name
Message-ID: <Sea2-F12HGNZ4mF1IT10000596a@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93017



There is something that has bugged me since GoF. Who gave Tom Riddle his 
fathers name? Voldemort tells Harry in the graveyard that his father left 
his mother before he was born and his mother died giving childbirth. 
Voldemort says  but I vowed to find himI revenged myself upon him, that 
fool who gave me his nameTom Riddle So did the orphanage tell Riddle that 
his son was born? Did the hospital or the orphanage know that Tom Riddle was 
the father? Did Voldemorts mother actually die or was that something that 
he was told happened at the orphanage? Is Voldemort's mother still alive? If 
she is still alive, who might she be?




Kathy

_________________________________________________________________
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From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 15 03:30:27 2004
From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (fauntine_80)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 03:30:27 -0000
Subject: JKR chat--Snape the coward or the one left forever?
In-Reply-To: <c2s4lm+vs9a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3380j+f2gf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93018

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "earendil_fr" 
<earendil_fr at y...> wrote:


> I sincerely believe Karkaroff to be the "one who has left forever". 
> 
> 
> By giving away the names of fellow Deatheaters Karkaroff condemned 
> himself to never return to the Dark Lord's side. 
> 
> And this would leave Snape as the coward.
> 
> 
> Earendil, who's delighted to have found such a wonderful place to 
> debate.


I really like your theory! 

It actually changes my mind about some things, and now I am starting 
to look at the "three" (left forever, coward, faithful) differently.

We all know Crouch Jr. is the "faithful one"
I like your idea of Karkaroff as the "One who's left forever"
But, I possibly Ludo Baggman is the "Coward" ????

The argument that Snape is still doing work for the Order, and also 
that he is close with Malfoy, is still strong in my mind.  So, he is  
HAS to keep his cover. 
As previously mentioned, Snape is very intelligent.  He knows how to 
manipulate people too. ...and he knows occumelency... 

However, my question is, was Snape ever in the "closest circle" of 
Voldemorts? I can't recall. Because, if he wasn't, he wouldn't have 
been listed among the "three."

Hmmm... now I have to mull this all over again! *sigh*

~Mo (Still unsure of the mysterious "three."






From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 15 04:14:56 2004
From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (fauntine_80)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 04:14:56 -0000
Subject: Ron to follow Voldemort?
In-Reply-To: <c2stot+kgue@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c33ak0+q7bm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93019

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "patchworkgirl82" 
<patchworkgirl82 at y...> wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I'm new to the group, and this may be an idea that has already been 
> explored, but I'm wondering if Ron might not be tempted to follow 
> Voldemort for a little bit (causing problems for Hermione, who he's 
> obviously going to get together with)
> 
> This is why I think so:
>> 3) Ron's desire to get out of the shadow of his brothers/Harry 
make 
> him a target for temptation (let's not forget what he saw in the 
> mirror of Erised)

Very true.  But I would think he would try to manifest that desire 
some other way, like dying for someone else.  ...Possibly to save 
Hermione?  I believe that the three's friendship is genuine and even 
temptation couldn't break it.  Maybe even some of that "old magic" at 
work there...?
 

> 5) None of the triad can die.  But something's gotta happen to 
them.  
> they just cant walk around triumphing over evil in every book.

Who says none of the trio can die???

There is a strong possibility he could be put under the Imperius 
curse for the Dark Side.  He has already shown that he can't fight it 
as well as others. (GoF - when he continued to skip after class)

> p.s.  10 dollars says Neville's going to become a healer

I hadn't thought about that, but it makes for really good a really 
good ending if he became a healer due to his parents' situation.  I 
like it!  He's good at Herbology too(possibly similar to Organic 
Chemestry - major course for "muggle" doctors)


Interesting theory...





From kashelkar at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 15 06:11:54 2004
From: kashelkar at yahoo.com (kashelkar)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 06:11:54 -0000
Subject: Apparating into the Ministry...
In-Reply-To: <c32eka+h3v3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c33hfa+jbf0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93020

> > Kashelkar's reply:
> > 
> > It's possible that the only place where apparation/disapparation 
is
> possible within MoM is the atrium, however, in the scene, when Harry
> lifts the prophecy from the stand, the DEs start apparating all 
around
> him, how's this possible??? Doesn't this indicate that, it's 
possible
> to apparate inside the DoM, that too in the hall of prophecies??
> 
> 
> I think they were simply hidden in the shadows, especially since 
Harry
> doesn't hear any popping sounds. He hears Lucius Malfoy's voice 
right
> behind him and his friends (OoP, Am. ed., 780), and then "black
> shapes" simply appear, noiselessly,  "out of thin air" all around 
him
> (781). "Out of thin air" is, I think, his impression of the event
> rather than fact, just as "he knew he was dead" *815) and "there was
> no escape" (816) are his impressions. For the reasons already 
given, I
> don't think the DEs could apparate into the DoM, or the particular
> chamber where Harry finds the prophecy. They must already have been
> there, having taken the lift just as Harry and his friends did. 
Maybe
> they even unlocked all the doors but one, which even Malfoy couldn't
> magically open. At any rate, it seems clear that they were already 
in
> the chamber, waiting in the darkness for Harry to remove the 
prophecy
> from the shelf and for Malfoy to speak before emerging from the
> shadows, blocking the way in every direction with their wands held 
out.
> 
> Carol

Kashelkar's reply:

If the DEs were hiding in the DoM for some time before HP and his 
gang entered MoM, what kept Voldy from going to MoM alongwith his 
DEs, and pick the prophecy himself, then disapparate, and leave the 
DEs to finish off the HP and gang?? If the DEs could get that far in 
the MoM without raising any alarm, then Voldy must also be able to do 
the same.
Also, is it not risky for the DEs to keep lurking in the DoM?? What 
if HP didn't turn up after all??  What if MoM officials and Aurors 
turned up instead??  Who'd take such high risk??  

Another curious question:  Why the DEs didn't even try to put the 
Imperious Curse on HP and his gang members (after all they have their 
backs at the DEs)??  If successful, that'll solve a hell lot of 
problems for the DEs.  Also, isn't it foolish on part of Lucius to 
explain the importance of the glass orb to HP?? 





From jenjar2001 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 15 06:26:08 2004
From: jenjar2001 at yahoo.com (jenjar2001)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 06:26:08 -0000
Subject: Confusing and Befuddlement Draughts
Message-ID: <c33ia0+vlq7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93021

I searched the list for anything on this topic and can't seem to find 
any posts like it but forgive me if I missed one and please feel free 
to direct me to the info...

I think while Sirius was living in the House of Black Kreacher may 
have been slipping him a Confusing or Befuddlement Draught.  On page 
383 in OoP it reads,

"Midnight came and went while Harry was reading and rereading a 
passage about the uses of scurvy-grass, lovage, and sneezewort and 
not taking in a word of it....
     These plantes are moste efficacious in the inflaming of the 
braine, and are therefore much used in Confusing and Befuddlement 
Draughts, where the wizard is desirous of producing hot-headedness 
and recklessnes....
Hermione said Sirius was becoming reckless cooped up in Grimmauld 
Place...."

JKR continues to repeat parts of this description intermingled with 
Harry's thoughts as he's falling asleep.

We know that Kreacher was probably gone from the house most of 
Christmas time and coincidentally Sirius' mood lightened 
significantly - of course most would assume this is because he is 
happy to have Harry and company staying for the Holiday but I think 
not.

Then, on page 516 after Sirius "finds" Kreacher in the attic, near 
the end of the Christmas vacation, It reads,

"Harry did not mention his vague suspicions to Sirius, whose 
cheerfulness was evaporating fast now that Christmas was over.  As 
the date of their departure back to Hogwarts drew nearer, he became 
more and more prone to what Mrs. Weasley called 'fits of the 
sullens,' in which he would become taciturn and grumpy, often 
withdrawing to Buckbeak's room for hours at a time.  His gloom seeped 
through the house, oozing under doorways like some noxious gas, so 
that all of them became infected by it."

The description of Sirius' mood even sounds poisonous.  Also at the 
end of the book Dumbledore tells Harry he blames himself for Sirus' 
death because he did not fully appreciate how hard it was for Sirius 
to stay trapped in Grimauld Place.  But, if Sirius mood was being 
altered by some draught that Kreacher was slipping him without 
Sirius' knowledge, that would explain his less than wise decisions 
and sometimes seemingly out of character actions. 

Anyone?







From kashelkar at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 15 07:03:23 2004
From: kashelkar at yahoo.com (kashelkar)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 07:03:23 -0000
Subject: Why didn't Voldy tip off the ministry about break-in at MoM...
In-Reply-To: <BAY16-DAV36bXmdMJOt00003768@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <c33kfr+jfte@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93022

<christophernuttall at h...> wrote:
> Consider: what if Fudge was a good, but misguided person?  Voldy 
might expect him to grap and jail harry, but he might also believe 
harry, at least to the extent of placing him somewhere Voldy could 
not get at him.  Further, think how vital it is for NO ONE to know 
about the propacy; if everyone knows that its Harry or Voldemort, 
they'll go for Harry.  
> 
> Chris

Kashelkar replies:

Fudge, in fact, may really be a "good but misguided" person.  
However, he's is not ready to accept that Voldy is back (and afraid 
that DD might displace him from his post), and hence has developed 
kind of enmity against anyone who claims that Voldy is back or is 
close to DD.  His loathing towards Harry is particularly evident from 
the scene at the trial: he seems to be bent on expelling Harry from 
Hogwarts and breaking his wand ie. exterminate from wizarding 
community.  He always tries to discredit Harry with the help 
of "Daily Prophet".  On this background, if he finds Harry lurking 
illegally inside the DoM, he won't even offer him a chance to explain 
himself (Just remember Harry's trial for use of magic by underage 
wizard) and put him right away at Azkaban. (and What will Harry 
explain even if given a chance??  His explanations involving his 
vision or Voldy will definitely not accepted) Not to mention, all the 
pals of Harry with him at the MoM, shall also recieve more or less 
the same treatment.
Also, imagine how happy Fudge would be, if he is able to capture the 
members of the order, including Sirius.  Also, finding Tonks and 
Kingsley with Sirius, shall lose them their jobs at the MoM, and 
probably shall be sent to Azkaban for spying or other charges.

I do think that, if he's given to enjoy such a feast, he'd definitely 
offer the best of honours (Order of Merlin; First Class??) to the 
person (ie. probably Lucias Malfoy) who tipped him.  (Again here we 
must consider the fact that the MoM released a criminal who provided 
them the info about the first meeting of DA members at Hog's Head)






From nicola_treloar at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 15 07:09:29 2004
From: nicola_treloar at hotmail.com (alphamatrix85)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 07:09:29 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Holding the Tiger's Tail
In-Reply-To: <c3274q+bm9s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c33kr9+tmiv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93023

Saturday, March 13, 2004, 7:34:37 AM, Jim wrote:

> I think Ron's an ordinary guy ? a good ordinary guy ? who wants a 
wife
> he can come home to, talk to, and bring up a family with.  That's
> perfectly fine if that's what his wife wants, too, but that's not 
for
> Hermione.


That's it! I've finally found someone who can explain it.. I have 
several reasons for being strongly opposed to the R-Hr ship, but 
that's the one thing I couldn't quite put my finger on. Their 
personalities in a marriage don't mix in my opinion. I couldn't see 
Hermione just going for the settles life with Ron and playing the 
part of the "good wife" who cooks/cleans etc.

Yay! :-)

- Alpha.







From penapart_elf at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 15 10:07:15 2004
From: penapart_elf at yahoo.com (Penapart Elf)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 02:07:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 14, Percy and Padfoot
Message-ID: <20040315100715.81081.qmail@web13011.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93024

I'm posting the following from Aesha on her behalf.

:) Penapart Elf



Summary

Harry wakes early Saturday morning feeling his first week 
of classes lasted forever. He grabs a parchment and 
quill, and heads down to the common room; after making 
himself comfortable, he can't help but look around and 
wonder how many house elves were unwittingly liberated, 
as Hermione's hats have vanished.

He came to appreciate how difficult it had been for Ron 
and Hermione to communicate with him throughout the 
summer as he pondered a letter to Sirius. It was crucial 
to remain as vague as possible, lest his letter be 
intercepted; he finally told Sirius that Umbridge was 
"nearly as nice as his mum", they missed their "biggest 
friend" and hinted that his scar shocked him as he sat 
detention with Umbridge.

After meeting Nearly Headless Nick in the hallway, he 
opted for the longer but safer route to the Owlery, so as 
to avoid Peeves. Instead he was intercepted by Mrs. 
Norris, and Harry reminded her he was not out of bounds. 
Once Hedwig was on her way, Harry couldn't help but 
notice Hagrid's empty hut. He saw one of the as-yet-
unidentified Thestrals rise above the forest and plunge 
back to its depths.

Cho Chang entered the Owlery, interrupting Harry's 
thoughts. They spoke of Quidditch, and Cho told Harry she 
thought he was brave for standing up to Umbridge... which 
gave Harry butterflies. Just as he was about to 
"accidentally" expose his injury when Filch entered, 
demanding to see what Harry was sending, having been 
tipped off that it was a large order for dungbombs. 
Thankful he hadn't dawdled, Harry said he'd sent it, and 
Cho vouched for him.

Harry joined Ron and Hermione in the Great Hall, and 
Hermione was soon shocked to read that the Ministry heard 
Sirius was holed up in London. Harry found a very small 
article saying that Sturgis Podmore had been arrested at 
the MoM- and was subsequently sentenced to 6 months in 
Azkaban.

Quidditch practice was a disaster. Ron had to endure the 
taunts and jeers of the Slytherins who had come to crash 
practice, and had ended up hitting Katie in the face with 
the Quaffle. Fred offered a Katie half of a nosebleed 
nougat, though once she fainted, it became clear that she 
had received the wrong end and practice came to an abrupt 
end.

Sunday was spent doing neglected homework, and around 
11:30 p.m. Hermione noticed Hermes at the tower window. 
Percy had sent his youngest brother a letter 
congratulating him on his prefect-ship, and continued to 
offer Ron unsolicited advice. He told Ron that 
Dumbledore's days at Hogwarts were numbered, and that 
there was a "more accurate" view of Harry Potter among 
the people who count. He made it clear that in his 
opinion (and that of many others), Harry had been 
acquitted on a technicality, and urged Ron to speak with 
Umbridge if he feared Potter.

Percy concluded his letter by stating that he had been 
lucky to escape the stigma associated with those rallied 
around Dumbledore- including their parents- and that he 
would graciously accept an apology from them when they 
came to their senses. Once they finished the letter, 
Hermione took pity on them and started going over their 
homework.

Freed from his homework, Harry's thoughts started to 
wander, where they settled on Sirius. He was shaken from 
his reverie by a glimpse of something in the fire- was it 
true? He got to his knees to search the flames, and 
finally Sirius appeared. Instead of resorting to 
breakable codes, Sirius decided to use the Floo network 
to speak quickly with Harry about his letter. He informed 
Harry that the Order felt his scar was likely to hurt 
more now that Voldemort was back, and reminded the trio 
that although Umbridge is a horrible woman, the world is 
not made up of good people and Death Eaters. He revealed 
to them that Umbridge hates part humans, and is partially 
responsible for Lupin's unemployment, and also tells them 
that their intel suggests Fudge fears Dumbledore forming 
a private army to use against the Ministry.

To brighten their spirits, Sirius suggests a meeting in 
Hogsmeade on their next weekend trip; Hermione and Harry 
beg him not to come, citing the article in the Daily 
Prophet. Though Sirius is sure they're just taking a wild 
guess as to where he is, Harry warns him that Lucius 
Malfoy recognized him at Platform 9 3/4 and asks him to 
stay home. At this, Sirius's attitude changes and he makes 
an excuse to quickly end the conversation.

Questions for discussion:

1. If house elves are freed against their will, where do 
they go? Can they stay at Hogwarts if they desire? If so, 
what does it matter if a house elf is inadvertently 
freed?

2. Why does Mrs. Norris make some sort of contact with 
those students she's suspicious of- making eye contact, 
brushing up against them? Is it something to do with her 
strange connection to Filch- does it set off a bat 
signal, of sorts?

3. What happened in the forest to make the Thestral fly 
out of it? Is this just something Harry didn't notice 
before, because he couldn't see them- or was there 
something more sinister happening?

4. Who are Filch's "sources"? Is it really just Umbridge? 
If so, why didn't she just try to intercept the letter 
herself? She made it plain that she doesn't trust Harry, 
so why would this seem strange? How did anyone know he 
was sending a letter at that time, that early, on a 
Saturday?

5. Why wouldn't Sturgis testify? Of course he could have 
said he had been acting under a curse. Was he afraid 
information about the Order would get out somehow? If he 
was sentenced to 6 months in Azkaban, why did we not hear 
anything about his release (which should have been in 
March), either as another tiny Prophet article or from 
someone in the Order?

6. We know now that Percy's letter wasn't written under a 
curse, nor was it a matter of him trying to keep under 
cover as a double-agent. Why would it have mattered if 
the letter arrived during breakfast? Students don't read 
one another's mail. Does he think one letter from the 
estranged family member can turn Ron against all his 
friends and family?



NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter 
discussions, please use the following as reference:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/67817
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/85829
and "OotP Chapter Discussions" at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database

__________________________________
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http://mail.yahoo.com



From delwynmarch at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 15 10:15:08 2004
From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 10:15:08 -0000
Subject: Different moral standards (was : On the other hand)
In-Reply-To: <c2ptah+60sh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c33vnc+krg6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93025


I, Del, wrote :

> > For people like the Dursleys, that's a perfectly valid excuse. 
> > There are tons of people out there who think that life should 
> > always treat them right, and that they are entitled to try and 
> > destroy or at least modify whatever is bothering them. Their 
> > children, in particular, should only give them pleasure and 
> > reasons to be proud. If they don't, they get punished. Many kids 
> > get forcibly coerced into becoming whatever their parents dream 
> > them to become. With disastrous results in the end, of course.
 
Annemehr answered :

> I don't see that as a defense of the Dursleys at all; it's more of 
> an inictment of them and goes to prove Geoff's point.  People who 
> think and act like that are Not Nice People.

Del replies :

Hey, I did say at the beginning of my post that I was a defender of 
the Bad People :-) !
However, I'd like to point out that the Dursleys know pretty well, 
in my idea, that they are not Nice People. But the thing is : they 
don't care. Being nice is not one of their priorities. Being 
respectable, fitting in, are their priorities. Being nice isn't. 
They have a different moral code. I don't care about fitting in, 
Vernon doesn't care about being nice, but that doesn't mean one of 
us is right and the other is wrong. We just have different moral 
codes.

Del said :

> > Yes, but it can be safely assumed that Harry would have shown 
> > magical powers anyway, even if he had been treated right.

Annemehr answered :

> Well, every incident of Harry doing uncontrolled magic, save one, 
> that we know of is the result of a Dursley's abuse.  The one 
> exception we know of is when he'd somehow turned his teacher's wig 
> blue; I *suppose* it was the teacher who'd stressed him that time, 
> but I guess we can't be sure.
> 
> When Hagrid was trying to get Harry to believe he was a wizard, he
> said "Never made things happen when you was scared or angry?"  It's
> the Dursleys who've been making Harry scared and angry enough to do
> reflexive magic.

Del replies :

Exactly :-) ! The Dursleys are the ones who manage to upset Harry 
most. So what ? It was to be expected, wasn't it ? I mean, the 
family circle is very often where a kid gets most upset, isn't it ? 
The fact that Harry rarely gets upset enough with other people to 
perform accidental magic is quite a compliment to his self-control 
(which is why I got so annoyed when he lost it completely in OoP - 
though I guess it was to be expected).

Del said  :

> > Nope ! Dudley is going to Smeltings (?), and the others too I 
> > guess - not that it matters anyway : without Dudley to lead 
> > them, nobody would care much about Harry.

Annemehr answered :

> No, Geoff is correct: only Dudley and Piers are going to 
> Smeltings. Dennis, Malcom and Gordon could well be going to 
> Stonewall; at least, the narrator doesn't mention them going to a 
> public (i.e. private in US) school when Dudley and Piers' school 
> plans are mentioned.  And I don't believe for a minute that they 
> would have left Harry alone just because Dudley wasn't around.

Del replies :

My apologies on that one, I misunderstood what Geoff meant.
But I stick to what I said otherwise : I'm sure Harry's life would 
have been much easier at SH, without Dudley around. Maybe what was 
left of the gang would still have picked on him, but the bullying 
would not have been as bad without Dudley to lead them.

Annemehr also said :

> I'll give you Dursley defenders the fact that they were *afraid* of
> taking in a wizard child.  But Harry would not have been constantly
> causing catastrophes in their lives; he grew up looking normal 
> enough that he was able to roam the neighborhood and go to school 
> and the secret never got out.  Nobody ever suspected a thing.  

Del answers :

We have to remember that Petunia grew up with Lily. She must have 
noticed that Lily did weird things once in a while, and she must 
have been upset about it. And when it was revealed that Lily was a 
witch, Petunia had to endure a terrible humiliation on top of her 
fear : her parents were *proud* of Lily for being a witch ! Little 
Petunia was scared and horrified and disgusted, but her parents were 
happy and proud ! That was the worst betrayal she could have dreamed 
of ! And then there was the whole business of LV, and James and Lily 
getting killed, to add to Petunia's fears. So I quite understand 
that she would have been mightily upset at the idea of taking in a 
magical child, and a dangerous one too maybe (protection implies 
danger, right ?).

Annemehr :

> Besides, they weren't afraid to let their son hit Harry, and they 
> weren't afraid to lock Harry into a cupboard.

Del :

I'd rather say that they didn't want to stop Dudley from getting his 
way, even if that meant hitting Harry. And they were too upset with 
the whole Harry thing anyway to restrain from doing their best to 
ignore it, including hit Harry to silence him, and lock him up away 
from view.

Annemehr :

> The Dursleys could not have been living in such a constant state 
> of terror that they were *unable* to see the innocent child who 
> was living with them.

Del :

I wouldn't necessarily say terror, but upset for sure. They were 
constantly upset by Harry and all he meant. And strong emotions like 
fear, anger, etc, *can* indeed prevent anyone from seeing the 
innocence of any child. Without a strong loving moral code to 
support them, the Dursleys simply have no reason not to give in to 
their anger and hate towards Harry and all he represents, they have 
no reason not to use Harry as a scapegoat and punching ball when 
they feel bad. And once the habit is taken of not considering Harry 
as a real child deserving love, it's really hard to break. Not to 
mention, of course, that I'm not so sure the Dursleys have *any* 
love to give...

Annemehr :
 
> The thing that makes me dislike the elder Dursleys is that they 
> could live with Harry for ten *years* by the beginning of PS/SS 
> and never soften toward him at all.  That is extremely cold-
> hearted.

Del :

Oh but I totally agree that the Dursleys are very cold-hearted ! 
They are perfectly selfish, self-centered and cold-hearted, 3 very 
big faults by our moral standards. But once again, I must emphasize 
the fact that the Dursleys simply do NOT share our moral standards. 
It's perfectly okay, in their idea, to be selfish, self-centered and 
cold-hearted. That's what they think is right, that's what they 
teach their son. And who are we to decide they are wrong to think 
that way ? It hurts us, it shocks us, but there's no way we can say 
they shouldn't think that way.

Annemehr :

> I think Vernon is the worst because I believe he is the only one 
> who would be perfectly happy to see Harry dead; I don't get the 
> feeling that Petunia is quite that far gone.  As for Dudley, I'm 
> hoping to see some sort of understanding develop between him and 
> Harry -- as JKR says, there's always hope, right?

Del :

That's kind of logical. Vernon is the father, the dominant male, out 
there to destroy anything that might threaten his mate and his 
offspring. Petunia is a female, which by definition means she has a 
(very deeply hidden :-) soft spot for young ones.

The way the Dursleys treat Harry revolts me too, but I acknowledge 
that they simply represent another morality, more "natural", 
less "humane". I read somewhere that when a new lion takes over a 
lion group, the first thing it does is kill all the offsprings of 
the old leader, and the mothers let it do it, because that's the 
natural order of things. Tough, but normal.

Del




From delwynmarch at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 15 10:37:41 2004
From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 10:37:41 -0000
Subject: On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
In-Reply-To: <c2qdeu+ce1t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3411l+11hjk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93026

suehpfan wrote:

> 2.   The image of the baby Harry at the Dursley's is a very 
> painful one for me.  I cannot imagine the depravity of two adults 
> in a house with a parentless *baby* not being willing to meet his 
> needs (both physical and emotional).  There is no excuse.  No 
> level of fear creates a situation which can in anyway excuse this 
> behavior.  

Del answers :

I quite disagree with you. I know our western culture has this idea 
that anyone seeing a baby in need will automatically take care of it 
and feel attached to it. But that's simply not true. There are many 
biological mothers who just don't bond with their babies instantly, 
it may take days, weeks or even months, and a few will never manage 
to do it without psychological help. It's still quite a taboo, but 
it's true. And when there are deep negative emotional issues running 
in the mother's life (abuse, rape, abandonment, etc...), the risk of 
her not bonding correctly with her child is even higher.

And when there are as deep emotional issues between foster parents 
and kid as there were between the Dursleys and baby Harry, I'm 
afraid I have to call Dumbledore irresponsible for forcing Harry on 
them without providing any kind of help or support : the probability 
of them not bonding with Harry was so high as to be almost 
inevitable. And it doesn't take an Inner Eye to guess what people 
like the Dursleys do to kids they have to keep but don't like. It 
was obvious from the beginning that things would go wrong, it would 
have taken nothing short of a miracle for Petunia to fall in love 
with her detested and feared and jealoused sister's baby, and that 
miracle didn't happen. I don't blame Petunia.

Suehpfan :

> IMO, the Dursleys are awful.

Del :

In mine, they are Different. They are indeed awful by my moral 
standards, but I have no right to force those standards on them. 
They were landed with a baby whose very idea they hated, and they 
received no help. Not that they would have accepted it, mind you :-
), since they didn't think they needed it.

Suehpfan :

> That said, I would not be surprised if Petunia and Dudley do a 
> little bit to redeem themselves before the end.  Vernon? 
> Impossible.

Del :

I don't see it that way. To redeem themselves, they would have to 
admit they did something wrong. But that would mean they would have 
to change their moral code to start with. That's quite unlikely to 
happen and would feel like cheating to me.

Del




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 15 11:19:52 2004
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 11:19:52 -0000
Subject: Different moral standards (was : On the other hand)
In-Reply-To: <c33vnc+krg6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c343go+gopn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93027

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Doriane" <delwynmarch at y...> 
wrote:
 
> Hey, I did say at the beginning of my post that I was a defender of 
> the Bad People :-) !
> However, I'd like to point out that the Dursleys know pretty well, 
> in my idea, that they are not Nice People. But the thing is : they 
> don't care. Being nice is not one of their priorities. Being 
> respectable, fitting in, are their priorities. Being nice isn't. 
> They have a different moral code. I don't care about fitting in, 
> Vernon doesn't care about being nice, but that doesn't mean one of 
> us is right and the other is wrong. We just have different moral 
> codes.

"Just"!? What do you mean "just"?! The Nazis had also a different 
moral code, didn't they? So have every racist and fascist that ever 
was. It's the ideology that makes Voldemort the epitome of evil, not 
the lack of it. The Dursleys are not merely egoists but have an 
ideology of selfishness, you say, and you think that that constitutes 
a *defence* of them? It's the worse indictment there is. Nobody is 
consistently kind and considerate, that's part of being human, but 
are you seriously suggesting that an ideology that justifies 
selfishness and cruelty is a form of justification?!
 
<snip>
> 
> Annemehr :
> 
> > The Dursleys could not have been living in such a constant state 
> > of terror that they were *unable* to see the innocent child who 
> > was living with them.
> 
> Del :
> 
> I wouldn't necessarily say terror, but upset for sure. They were 
> constantly upset by Harry and all he meant. And strong emotions 
like 
> fear, anger, etc, *can* indeed prevent anyone from seeing the 
> innocence of any child. Without a strong loving moral code to 
> support them, the Dursleys simply have no reason not to give in to 
> their anger and hate towards Harry and all he represents, they have 
> no reason not to use Harry as a scapegoat and punching ball when 
> they feel bad. And once the habit is taken of not considering Harry 
> as a real child deserving love, it's really hard to break. Not to 
> mention, of course, that I'm not so sure the Dursleys have *any* 
> love to give...

Exactly. They don't have a "strong loving moral code"; they "don't 
have any love to give". It is a judgement in itself. 

> 
> Annemehr :
>  
> > The thing that makes me dislike the elder Dursleys is that they 
> > could live with Harry for ten *years* by the beginning of PS/SS 
> > and never soften toward him at all.  That is extremely cold-
> > hearted.
> 
> Del :
> 
> Oh but I totally agree that the Dursleys are very cold-hearted ! 
> They are perfectly selfish, self-centered and cold-hearted, 3 very 
> big faults by our moral standards. But once again, I must emphasize 
> the fact that the Dursleys simply do NOT share our moral standards. 
> It's perfectly okay, in their idea, to be selfish, self-centered 
and 
> cold-hearted. That's what they think is right, that's what they 
> teach their son. And who are we to decide they are wrong to think 
> that way ? It hurts us, it shocks us, but there's no way we can say 
> they shouldn't think that way.

!?!?! Again, you astound me. If we can't decide that it is wrong to 
be selfish, self-centered and cold-hearted, then what meaning 
does 'wrong' continue to have? According to you, then, nobody can 
ever judge anybody else, as long as a person doesn't feel that he is 
doing anything wrong. So, if a psycopath kills and tortures people, 
but feels fine with it (since he is even more cold hearted than the 
Dursleys), we can't say that he is doing wrong?

<snip>
>Vernon is the father, the dominant male, out 
> there to destroy anything that might threaten his mate and his 
> offspring. Petunia is a female, which by definition means she has a 
> (very deeply hidden :-) soft spot for young ones.
> 
> The way the Dursleys treat Harry revolts me too, but I acknowledge 
> that they simply represent another morality, more "natural", 
> less "humane". I read somewhere that when a new lion takes over a 
> lion group, the first thing it does is kill all the offsprings of 
> the old leader, and the mothers let it do it, because that's the 
> natural order of things. Tough, but normal.
> 

It's the natural order of things for *lions*. It is also the natural 
order of things for fish to eat their young, and for a praying mantis 
to feed on her spouse. Rats horribly kill stranger rats. Ticks burrow 
into their victims' skin to suck their blood. Various types of wasps 
lay their eggs within the (living) body of insects, so their young 
can feed on it. 

Bringing natural selection arguments into the social-moral arena is 
demagogical, specious and extremely dangerous. This type of thinking 
laid the foundations to the worst atrocities humans ever committed on 
other humans. If you haven't heard of Social Darwinism, I suggest you 
start reading on it. The arguments you bring have a long history, a 
long history of refutation, and, like I said, a long history of 
terrible consequences. 



Naama, *not* a moral relativist




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Mar 15 12:38:03 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 12:38:03 -0000
Subject: Confusing and Befuddlement Draughts
In-Reply-To: <c33ia0+vlq7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3483b+24ef@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93028

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jenjar2001" <jenjar2001 at y...> 
wrote:
  
> The description of Sirius' mood even sounds poisonous.  Also at 
the 
> end of the book Dumbledore tells Harry he blames himself for 
Sirus' 
> death because he did not fully appreciate how hard it was for 
Sirius 
> to stay trapped in Grimauld Place.  But, if Sirius mood was being 
> altered by some draught that Kreacher was slipping him without 
> Sirius' knowledge, that would explain his less than wise decisions 
> and sometimes seemingly out of character actions. 
> 
> Anyone?


I've read this idea before and dismissed it. But, I'm re-reading GoF 
now and am very surprised at how different Sirius is. (Most everyone 
else on this list noticed this much quicker than I have.) So now 
the  poisoning idea sounds reasonable to me.  My question would be: 
If JKR was having a character poisoned, why would she kill him in 
some other way before the poisoning was discovered?  As I was typing 
that sentence, I swear, a voice in the back of  my head said: To set 
us up for someone being poisoned in the next book! 

But, poisons are potions and potions are magic.  Can house-elves 
work this type of magic?  If it was Kreacher, was someone giving him 
the poisons?

Potioncat (and no, if any of this is correct, it wasn't Snape)




From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 15 04:02:06 2004
From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (fauntine_80)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 04:02:06 -0000
Subject: Dudley's Worst Memory
In-Reply-To: <c2svqd+6p0e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c339ru+j295@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93029


> I think Dudder's worst memories are from when he is 11, and he 
> discovers for the very first time that his wishes will not always 
be 
> obeyed by his parents. A much-delayed, but salutary moment for the 
> unpleasant little monster.


Possibly, but he eventually came to accept that Harry had moved into 
the room, and he wasn't horror struck or frightened that Harry moved 
into the room.

In OotP, after the  dementor attack, Dudley hides his face in his 
hand and he can't speak to his parents about what he saw.  He says, 
if I remeber correctly, he heard "things."  Plural, and the fact that 
Dudley is too frightened to say anything is a significant clue.

My first interpretation was that Dudley could have been putting on an 
act and overdramatizing what he heard, or was he?

The fact that he is so disturbed by it physically is a big sign.
Also, Harry thinks to himself "what would spoiled, pampered, bullying 
Dudley have been forced to hear?"  is left completely open.
I don't think it's insignificant by any means, epsecially since it is 
left open.





From teshara at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 15 07:29:22 2004
From: teshara at yahoo.com (Chelle)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 07:29:22 -0000
Subject: Something Small - 3 Theories
In-Reply-To: <c2tjva+1hko@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c33m0i+lp5n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93030


<idrinkjameson at h...> wrote:
> snip
> > >      JKR stated that something very small would be a big part of
> book 
> > > six. 
>  snip

My theories:

1) Dobby and Winky are both small ;)

2) In book 4 Moaning Myrtle tells Harry 'all sorts' live in the lake.
The Durmstrang ship appeared in the lake. Where else can you travel to
in the lake?

3) In book 5 Arthur Weasley wrote a report on firearms. We all know
how much he tinkers with things. I actually worried when I read that
line. The last thing Arthur needs is a gun. Or a magically enhanced
one, for that matter.

~ Chelle
http://www.fanfiction.com/~teshara





From earendil_fr at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 15 10:31:05 2004
From: earendil_fr at yahoo.com (earendil_fr)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 10:31:05 -0000
Subject: JKR chat--Snape the coward or the one left forever?
In-Reply-To: <c3380j+f2gf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c340l9+v9r4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93031

Earendil:
> > I sincerely believe Karkaroff to be the "one who has left 
forever". 
> > <snip>
> > 
> > By giving away the names of fellow Deatheaters Karkaroff 
condemned 
> > himself to never return to the Dark Lord's side. 
> > 
> > And this would leave Snape as the coward.


Mo:
> I really like your theory! 
> 
> It actually changes my mind about some things, and now I am 
starting 
> to look at the "three" (left forever, coward, faithful) 
differently.
> <snip>
> However, my question is, was Snape ever in the "closest circle" of 
> Voldemorts? I can't recall. Because, if he wasn't, he wouldn't 
have 
> been listed among the "three."

If you believe Karkaroff was in the 'closest circle' (indifferently 
as the one who left forever or as the coward), then it would be 
logical to assume Snape was as well. First, Karakaroff and Snape 
know each other well. Second, Snape's role among the Deatheaters was 
important enough for Karkaroff to mention his name at his trial. 
Besides, Snape was close enough to Voldemort to do some spying for 
the Order... And Snape seems to be a close friend of Lucius Malfoy, 
who was proven to be one of the inner circle...

I personnally think Snape was one of the close circle, but it's only 
speculation. We have no real 'canon' proof of his closeness (as far 
as I can remember anyway).

Earendil.






From earendil_fr at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 15 10:30:49 2004
From: earendil_fr at yahoo.com (earendil_fr)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 10:30:49 -0000
Subject: Snape and fidelius
In-Reply-To: <c32chh+ilmv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c340kp+b7d2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93032

> Lady McBeth:
> > If the charm does in fact cover the members of the order LV 
would 
> > have no way of knowing that snape is a member. 
> 
> Susan:
> I really had never thought of whether the fidelius charm extends 
to 
> protecting the members, wherever they happen to be, from being 
> identified as members.  That's an interesting idea, and I'd be 
> curious to hear others' views of this possibility.

Earendil:

>From the concrete example of use of the Fidelius charm we have 
(protecting the Potter in Godric's Hollow) I believe it's possible. 
The Fidelius Charm was used to prevent anyone (apart from the secret 
keeper) from revealing where the Potter were hiding . The Charm 
isn't necessarily restricted to keep locations a secret, its use 
could be to prevent anyone from revealing a piece of information, 
generally speaking. If it were so it could be used to prevent anyone 
from revealing the location of the Order and/or the identity of the 
members. In a way it would be akin to the spell Hermione used with 
the DA members' signatures to keep their identity a secret.

However, if it was possible to use the Fidelius charm in such a way, 
I suppose Voldemort would have used it with his Deatheaters, and 
then Karkaroff would have been unable to betray them. Unless LV 
trusted all of them enough (which sounds unlikely)...

In any case it's a very interesting theory.

Earendil.





From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Mon Mar 15 13:40:42 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 13:40:42 -0000
Subject: Snape and the MOM
In-Reply-To: <c33bu6+rv1r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c34boq+1jb9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93033

Carol:
> > > I also don't think that Snape has to report everything that 
> > > happens at Hogwarts, so there's no reason for him to say 
> > > anything about Umbridge. He also would have no way of 
> > > *instantly* notifying LV that Harry was missing
 
Susan:
> > How do we know that, Carol?  Didn't DD tell Harry at the end of 
> > OoP that Order members have "more reliable means of 
> > communication" than fireplaces?  He didn't explain what those 
> > means are but left it open for a futute revelation.  (Fawkes, for 
> > one, seems to have some pretty powerful magical abilities; I 
> > wonder if he can't provide almost instantaneous communication?)  
> > Anyway, if DD & the Order have such means, why might not Voldy & 
> > his henchmen/women?  

Carol: 
> The means of communication DD talks about are for members of the
> Order, not for Snape communicating with LV. Whatever means Snape has
> for communicating with DD (and I think he must have used them to
> summon DD to Grimmauld Place on the night of the MoM battle), we can
> be sure he doesn't use the same means to communicate with LV. He's
> certainly not going to communicate with LV using Fawkes. We can also
> be pretty sure that Crouch Jr. communicated with LV by owl (the 
> eagle owl dream almost certainly refers to a real eagle owl that 
> Harry sees flying over the Forbidden Forest--I can look up the 
> quote if you need it). I'm still convinced, BTW, that Snape's 
> primary means of communication with LV and the DEs is some sort of 
> arrangement with Malfoy. If there were some sort of instrument in 
> his office that he uses, wouldn't Crouch Jr. have found it in his 
> search?

Susan:
I absolutely do not agree.  The point I was trying to make is that I 
believe adult wizards--particularly those who have advanced skills--
know about additional means of communication beyond those available 
to Hogwarts students.  If the Order members have **as-yet-undescribed-
by-DD** means of quick, reliable communication, why would it be so 
hard to believe that Voldy and his followers have quick, reliable 
means of communications themselves?  (Isn't the Dark Mark a pretty 
quick, reliable means of communicating *something*?)  No, I didn't 
think Snape used Fawkes, nor even that his means of contacting Voldy 
are the same means that he uses for contacting DD, but I just don't 
think we *know* anything much at all about the multiple ways 
communication can occur in the WW, and I think we should be cautious 
about assumptions of what *isn't* possible.   

I don't even want to go into the rest of this because I think we're 
arguing in circles.  Suffice it to say, for me, Snape can make an 
excuse any time he needs to by virtue of his position as "spy" for 
the DEs.  There are things he can't do or say if he doesn't want to 
compromise DD's trust, and if Voldy wants to keep Snape close to DD, 
he's going to have to allow things in Snape's behavior that he 
wouldn't tolerate in others.  Snape has a *tricky* path to walk, but 
I believe he's smart & crafty enough to find excuses for the 
information he does not pass along.  (You kind of said this, too, in 
your very first sentence, above).  I would argue that the more 
volatile the information, the more Snape can argue to Voldy that he 
has to be careful not to tip off DD.  

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Mon Mar 15 14:06:32 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 14:06:32 -0000
Subject: On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
In-Reply-To: <c3411l+11hjk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c34d98+dmhl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93034

Suehpfan :
> > IMO, the Dursleys are awful.
 
Del :
> In mine, they are Different. They are indeed awful by my moral 
> standards, but I have no right to force those standards on them. 
> They were landed with a baby whose very idea they hated, and they 
> received no help. Not that they would have accepted it, mind you :-
> ), since they didn't think they needed it.

Susan:
Playing devil's advocate a bit here....  You have no right to force 
moral standards on the Dursleys?  Why not?  Are there no universal 
moral standards for treatment of others?  I find that unpalatable.  
Civilization depends upon certain mores and legalized moralities, 
does it not?  

If the poor Dursleys really hated the idea of taking Harry in, if 
they really felt they could not bond with him, why didn't they move 
him along to an orphanage and wash their hands of him?  I don't think 
it could be simply that they were too afraid of DD if they did so.  
Clearly DD didn't come crashing in when they abused Harry [yes, 
forcing a child to live in a cupboard is abuse in my book] and tell 
them to cease & desist.  They seemed to have been pretty free to get 
away w/ whatever they liked.  So could they really have been 
frightened of DD?

I can understand--really I can--how upset the Dursleys were at having 
this child foisted upon them, but their treatment of Harry was truly 
despicable, and if they felt they couldn't abide his presence, why 
*didn't* they "pass on the offer"?  And I don't think you can argue 
that, deep down, they do [or Petunia does] care...because if that 
were true, they wouldn't have treated Harry as they did/do.

I suspect the tomatoes are about to fly in my direction....  Oh, 
well, it's a foggy-brained Monday morning; have at me.

Siriusly Snapey Susan






From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 15 14:14:38 2004
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 14:14:38 -0000
Subject: Hermione is Umbridge
In-Reply-To: <c31u2s+i5pg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c34doe+apec@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93035

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kia" <kiatrier at y...> wrote:
> 
> 
> I leave Bilius and Molly to other people for now and concentrate 
> on the fact that Umbridge and Hermione share the same middle 
> name. Jane. 
> 
> Both Hermione and Umbridge like rules. They like to enforce 
> them. They like having the power to enforce them be it through 
> prefecture or being a High Inquisitor. 

We see that Dolores Umbridge likes rules and likes to enforce them. 
We do *not* see this with Hermione. She respects rules, and when 
given the responsibility to enforce them, she does her best to fulfil 
this duty. There is not a shred of evidence that she gets a buzz from 
it. In the same way, when she campaigns for a change in rules (i.e., 
SPEW), it is strictly geared to an issue, not to enhance her power or 
sense of power.

>They like to break them, if 
> they deem it necessary, being by trying the Cruciatus on 
> students or leading teachers to an almost certain death. 

Dolores certainly has no problem in breaking rules - if she can get 
away with it. This is the other side of the coin of her attitude to 
rules in the first place - they are to be used and manipulated to 
serve her own agenda, not to express and enforce justice. 

>Both 
> have a sadistic or at least cruel streak - Umbridge and her quill, 
> Hermione and her parchment. 

Again, Umbridge is certainly sadistic, but *Hermione*? JKR appears to 
have a fondness for boils, acne and such, and uses them a lot in the 
books - people are forever being jinxed with it, or getting it 
through magical accidents. So, Hermione was using a *mild* 
punishment, in terms of the Potterverse. In real life, it's the 
equivalent of painting somebody's face with indelible paint. If you 
see giving boils as sadistic, then it's JKR, not Hermione, who is the 
sadist.

>Both are not above blackmail. 

Do you truly not see the difference between putting pressure on 
somebody to stop them from doing wrong, and blackmail?!

> Both are not above abusing their power.

*When* has Hermione abused her power? 

> Both do what they deem 
> necessary to do to keep the world the way they want it. 

Hermione wants a world that is fair, kind and just. Dolores Umbridge 
wants a world that is at her service. All people want things, the 
difference between good and bad is the difference between *what* they 
want.

> 
<snip> 
> If Pansy Parkinson or even Cho Chang had been responsible for 
> "The Marietta Incident", we would have hated Pansy or Cho for it. 

Nope. I certainly wouldn't have hated them. Marietta betrayed her 
friends and was a coward. She got a (mild) comeuppance, that's all.


<snip> 

> Uhm, I think this might be a bit of an unpopular answer but I don't 
> think Umbridge is evil. <snip>

>That is evil on a completely different level. >It's evil, but it's 
also very normal, very human in its inhumanness. It's something you 
encounter much more often in the real world than 
> Voldemorts.
> Anyway it's cruel and sadistic and wrong, but it's hard to call it 
evil 
> in the same way one would call Voldemort evil. It's not the same 
> thing, at least not in Harry Potter. Evil is Voldemort. Umbridge is 
> ruthlessness. Umbridge is sadism. Umbridge is cruelty. 
> Umbridge is the lack of compassion. Umbridge is selfishness. 
> Umbridge is hunger for power. Umbridge is everything we 
> identify as evil or ingredient for evil, but she isn't Voldemort. 
The 
> difference between her and Voldemort is the intention. Umbridge 
> believes that she can do good, that she is doing good, that what 
> she does is constructive, that she is the epitome of morality. 
> What stops Umbridge from being evil and what keeps her 
> human is her belief that she does good. Her morality is totally 
> screwed up, but if you screw up your eyes and read OotP 
> upside-down, you might realise how - from her point of view - 
> she is doing the right thing and nothing but the right thing. And 
> you might also see how she believes that the means justify the 
> ends.
> 

I don't think that Dolores thinks she is doing good. I don't think 
she thought she was doing the right thing by sending Dementors after 
Harry, for instance. I think she acts throughout the book with a 
complete lack of morality, intent on achieving the political goals 
she wants, that have no reference to morality at all. 
You are right that Voldemort is evil on a different level than 
Umbridge, but IMO it's not because she does what she believes to be 
good. As I see it, it's because she doesn't have a positive 
*ideology* of evil, as Voldemort has. She doesn't care for morality 
the least bit (this makes her the most evil non-DE character so far, 
IMO), but she hasn't gone so far as to positively, consciously, 
reject the notion of morality. 
I think of Voldemort as *human* evil carried to it's logical end. 
Good people do wrong and repent it, most people do wrong and 
rationalize it, Umbridges do wrong and don't care about it, 
Voldemorts rejoice in it. 


Naama




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Mar 15 14:41:45 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 14:41:45 -0000
Subject: Hermione is Umbridge
In-Reply-To: <c336jp+drjp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c34fb9+4er4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93036

Carol:
> Let me just say that I disagree with your idea primarily because 
JKR has repeatedly stated that she likes Hermione and that 
Hermione is an exaggerated version of her younger self. <
<<big snip>>
> John, BTW, is Hebrew for "God is gracious" and was the name 
of the most beloved apostle, so, given that we know JKR is a 
Christian, thechoice of that middle name for Remus may 
suggest a special place inher heart or in his relationship to 
Dumbledore. (It's a stretch, I realize, and I know Pippin won't like 
it, but I wanted to mention it as a possibility, anyway.) <<

On the contrary, thanks for pointing this out. The significance of 
John as a form of Jane hadn't occured to me.

Exaggerating the characteristics of people you hate isn't the only 
way to come up with a villain. You can also imagine what would 
happen if  your own character flaws got out of control.  JKR has 
admitted to doing this with Hermione.

http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2000/070
0-cbc-solomon.htm

"Hermione, with the best of intentions, becomes quite 
self-righteous. My heart is entirely with her as she goes through 
this. She develops her political conscience. My heart is 
completely with her. But my brain tells me, which is a growing-up 
thing, that in fact she blunders towards the very people she's 
trying to help. She offends them. "

 I  think that both Umbridge and ESE!Lupin illustrate aspects of 
Evil!Hermione, in much the same way that Draco is 
Evil!Ron and Riddle is Evil!Harry. I also see Hermione herself 
riding for a fall, though I think she'll learn the error of her ways. 
Her self-righteous streak is still going strong in OOP. She 
doesn't see, for example,  that  experimenting on the House 
Elves  is just as wrong as Fred and George testing their 
products on the first years.


Pippin




From meriaugust at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 15 14:45:20 2004
From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 14:45:20 -0000
Subject: Tom Riddle Jr's name
In-Reply-To: <Sea2-F12HGNZ4mF1IT10000596a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <c34fi0+ohju@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93037

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathy King" <kking0731 at h...> 
wrote:
> 
> 
> There is something that has bugged me since GoF. Who gave Tom 
Riddle his 
> father's name? Voldemort tells Harry in the graveyard that his 
father left 
> his mother before he was born and his mother died giving 
childbirth. 
> Voldemort says " but I vowed to find him
I revenged myself upon 
him, that 
> fool who gave me his name
Tom Riddle
" So did the orphanage tell 
Riddle that 
> his son was born? Did the hospital or the orphanage know that Tom 
Riddle was 
> the father? Did Voldemort's mother actually die or was that 
something that 
> he was told happened at the orphanage? Is Voldemort's mother still 
alive? If 
> she is still alive, who might she be?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kathy

My copy of CoS isn't with me at the moment, but I am pretty sure 
that somewhere in the book Tom explains that his mother lived just 
long enough after his birth to name him: Tom for his father, Marvolo 
for his grandfather. I am sorry I cannot find a direct quote, my 
books are not with me at the moment. 
Meri 




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Mar 15 14:59:45 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 14:59:45 -0000
Subject: Why didn't Voldy tip off the ministry about break-in at MoM...
In-Reply-To: <20040313113513.10927.qmail@web13423.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c34gd1+kpo0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93038

> Kashelkar replies:

> As regards the plan of Voldy, I believe it is 1) to kill Harry, and
2) 
to rule the world (Conquer the Death). And getting the prophecy 
is just a step towards it. By tipping off the MoM about the 
break-in, Voldy shall definitely achieve Harry's expulsion from 
Hogwarts. And under given situation, I won't be wrong if I expect 
Fudge to put Harry in Azkaban. If this can be achieved, then the 
prophecy thing doesn't matter, does it??<<

Ah, you wish that  Voldemort would behave like a rational person 
instead of an Evil Overlord. But the Evil Overlord, like all myths, 
exists to convey certain universal truths. For example, sadism is 
at cross-purposes with deterrence. The need to feel invincible 
will inhibit  the paranoid from discovering the flaws in the 
elaborate defenses they construct for themselves. The 
psychopath, unable to recognize others'  fear and pain, may be 
deceived into thinking the enemies are beaten when they've still 
got fight left. 

If Voldemort weren't a paranoid, psychopathic sadist he wouldn't 
have tried to get the prophecy, but he wouldn't be trying to kill 
Harry and take over  the world either.

Pippin





From meriaugust at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 15 15:03:30 2004
From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 15:03:30 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 14, Percy and Padfoot
In-Reply-To: <20040315100715.81081.qmail@web13011.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c34gk2+5tm0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93039

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Penapart Elf 
<penapart_elf at y...> wrote:
> I'm posting the following from Aesha on her behalf.
> 
> :) Penapart Elf
 
> Questions for discussion:
> 
> 1. If house elves are freed against their will, where do 
> they go? Can they stay at Hogwarts if they desire? If so, 
> what does it matter if a house elf is inadvertently 
> freed?

Meri: I think what constitutes house elf freedom is just one of the 
things that JKR should clear up for us in future books. IMHO, house 
elf freedom has as much to do with the master's attitude as the 
elf's. For instance: In Dobby's case, he was freed inadvertantly, 
with Lucious Malfoy just randomly tossing Harry's dirty sock (and 
can ya blame him?) and Dobby accidentally catching it. The intent 
was not to free Dobby, but that was what the elf took the gift of 
clothes to mean. Winky, on the other hand, probably took laundry 
from the Crouches all the time, but was never set free because there 
was no intent on the master's side and no desire to be free on 
Winky's side. Hermione could probably leave the contents of a 
Harrods outlet on the Gryffindor common room floor, but the regular 
Hogwarts elves would probably not be freed by the actions of a 
student. 

> 2. Why does Mrs. Norris make some sort of contact with 
> those students she's suspicious of- making eye contact, 
> brushing up against them? Is it something to do with her 
> strange connection to Filch- does it set off a bat 
> signal, of sorts?

Meri: I know that there has been speculation about whether or not 
Mrs. Norris is a kneazle like Crookshanks, and also about the 
strange links that squibs have with their cats (like Mrs. Figg and 
Flich). I think that there is some unknown form of communication 
from cats to squibs, and that maybe squbs aren't all that unmagical 
after all. Perhaps their powers just manifest themselves 
differently. 

> 3. What happened in the forest to make the Thestral fly 
> out of it? Is this just something Harry didn't notice 
> before, because he couldn't see them- or was there 
> something more sinister happening?

Meri: As a plot device it probably only helped to increase Harry's 
paranoia, but perhaps the thestral was just hunting. 

snipping the rest of the questions

Meri - answering a few posts on her break




From gbannister10 at aol.com  Mon Mar 15 15:06:46 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 15:06:46 -0000
Subject: Tom Riddle Jr's name
In-Reply-To: <Sea2-F12HGNZ4mF1IT10000596a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <c34gq6+6dl5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93040

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathy King" <kking0731 at h...> 
wrote:

Kathy:
> There is something that has bugged me since GoF. Who gave Tom 
Riddle his 
> father's name? Voldemort tells Harry in the graveyard that his 
father left 
> his mother before he was born and his mother died giving 
childbirth. 
> Voldemort says " but I vowed to find him
I revenged myself upon 
him, that 
> fool who gave me his name
Tom Riddle
" So did the orphanage tell 
Riddle that 
> his son was born? Did the hospital or the orphanage know that Tom 
Riddle was 
> the father? Did Voldemort's mother actually die or was that 
something that 
> he was told happened at the orphanage? Is Voldemort's mother still 
alive? If 
> she is still alive, who might she be?

Geoff:
There was a fairly lengthy exchange of posts covering Tom in the 
orphanage and associated links some time ago. One point to pick it up 
is at message 83700 (No Sex please, we're British) and follow though 
the various threads. There is more than one thread title IIRC but 
they cover topics such as whether Tom's mother was married to his 
father, orphanage information about names etc.





From gbannister10 at aol.com  Mon Mar 15 15:15:45 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 15:15:45 -0000
Subject: Tom Riddle Jr's name
In-Reply-To: <c34fi0+ohju@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c34hb1+fkvp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93041

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" <meriaugust at y...> 
wrote:

Meri:
> My copy of CoS isn't with me at the moment, but I am pretty sure 
> that somewhere in the book Tom explains that his mother lived just 
> long enough after his birth to name him: Tom for his father, 
Marvolo 
> for his grandfather. I am sorry I cannot find a direct quote, my 
> books are not with me at the moment. 

Geoff:
"'You live in a Muggle orphanage during the holidays I believe?' said 
Dippet curiously.
'Yes sir' said Riddle, reddening slightly.
'You are Muggle-born?'
'Half-blood, sir,' said Riddle. 'Muggle father, witch mother.'
'And are both your parents - ?'
'My mother died just after I was born, sir. They told me at the 
orphanage she lived just long enough to name me: Tom after my father, 
MArvolo after my grandfather.'"

(COS "The Very Secret Diary" p.182 UK edition)




From vecseytj at tampabay.rr.com  Mon Mar 15 15:32:30 2004
From: vecseytj at tampabay.rr.com (vecseytj)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 15:32:30 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Holding the Tiger's Tail
In-Reply-To: <c33kr9+tmiv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c34iae+jg14@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93042

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "alphamatrix85"
<nicola_treloar at h...> wrote:
> Saturday, March 13, 2004, 7:34:37 AM, Jim wrote:
> 
> > I think Ron's an ordinary guy ? a good ordinary guy ? who wants a 
> wife
> > he can come home to, talk to, and bring up a family with.  That's
> > perfectly fine if that's what his wife wants, too, but that's not 
> for
> > Hermione.
> 
> 
> That's it! I've finally found someone who can explain it.. I have 
> several reasons for being strongly opposed to the R-Hr ship, but 
> that's the one thing I couldn't quite put my finger on. Their 
> personalities in a marriage don't mix in my opinion. I couldn't see 
> Hermione just going for the settles life with Ron and playing the 
> part of the "good wife" who cooks/cleans etc.
> 
> Yay! :-)
> 
> - Alpha.


Hello?  Ron doesn't hold a cozy home and wife waiting for him at the
top of his list of anything.  Ron wants to be a Auror, he wants
adventure, he wants money! when Harry and Ron first met they stuck out
 in the middle of the night to go have a duel with Malfoy.  They
nearly got caught, they met Fluffy... and the next day.  Wow!  they
were talking about what a great adventure they had and were busy
planing there next one.

Ron doesn't think harth and home are all that great.  He know they
cost a lot of money.  Ron hates being poor.  I don't see him running
out buying a house having kids in any rush...  But Harry does like
family.  Harry is jeolous of Ron's family, Harry wants a family.  And
Harry is very happy to be included in the Weasley Clan.  And I think
that Harry would really expect his wife to be home when he was... I
don't think he would demand it, but I think he would need it. 

I see Harry, being very excited about having a family to love him and
for him to love.  A cozy cottage, with lots of good food and laughter
and love.   Oh and 12 kids running around like a herd of rampaging
rino's.  

But that is just my take on it.. Tj




From rredordead at aol.com  Mon Mar 15 15:56:18 2004
From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 15:56:18 -0000
Subject: Origins of Sirius/Keeping the wolf from the door
In-Reply-To: <c334o9+rrnu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c34jn2+t9qc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93043

> Carol:
> Great post, Alshain! I'd be "entertained" (enlightened) if you'd do
> one for Bellatrix (woman warrior?), which of course you know is a
> bright star in the constellation Orion. (I'll bet Bella's Patronus 
is
> an Amazon.)

Mandy here:
I have the idea that all petronus' are in animal form, something like 
the American Indian Animal Spirit Guides.  

If that is so, Bellatrix's patronus cannot be an Amazon who were a 
race of human female warriors.  Bellatrix's petronus would be a 
Hyena. 

Hyena's are truly fierce predators and scavangers who live in 
matriarchal societies where the males are significantly smaller than 
the females.  They also laugh or scream in place of a roar.  Sounds 
like Bella to me.

Cheers Mandy





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Mar 15 16:46:35 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 16:46:35 -0000
Subject: JKR chat--Snape the coward or the one left forever?
In-Reply-To: <c2rfnh+v0ed@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c34mlb+88un@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93044

snipping Potioncat's question and part of Carol's answer

Carol wrote:

> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/7901
> 
> Here's the relevant portion:
> 
> "Back in October/November [2000] one of the posters on Jenna's 
UHPFC
> board attended a reading that JKR did in Vancouver. She reported 
that
> afterwards there was a Q&A session, during which JKR was asked
> straight out who the three "missing" Death Eaters were. JKR gave a
> reply which apparently made it obvious that the faithful servant 
was
> Barty, the coward was Karkaroff - and the one who had left forever
> and who would be killed was Snape.
> 
> "At this point, a groan of dismay swept over the audience at the
> thought of Snape dying (obviously there was a big Snape-fan
> contingent in that night). JKR looked very taken aback at this
> reaction and promptly said "Oh, you don't have to worry about 
Snape -
> he's tough." As a Snape fan myself, I hope this was an indication
> that he is going to make it through to the end of Book 7 in one
> piece, although I have no idea what he will be doing in the 
meantime."
> 
> (Carol again): After reading this post (long after it was posted), 
I
> tried to find out whether this interview was ever transcribed 
online,
> and the answer is apparently no. 
>>snip< 
> 
> BTW, if we *could* find this interview online or in print, it would
> definitively establish that Snape was *not* the coward or the 
faithful
> servant or a DE present at the graveyard. He was, as I've been 
arguing
> for the last twelve years (erm, last few days not counting earlier
> threads) the one LV believes has left him forever. (At least, he
> believed it the end of GoF, though Snape seems to have gotten 
himself
> off the hook in OoP. Now, after the Battle of MoM, I'm pretty sure
> he's back on again.)
> 
> Does anyone on this board have a copy of this interview or any
> additional information about it?
> 
 >more snipping<
> 
>x> http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/1999/1099-
connectiontransc.html
> 
> Q: There's an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape
> JKR: He, um, there's so much I wish I could say to you, and I can't
> because it would ruin. I promise you, whoever asked that question, 
can
> I just say to you that I'm slightly stunned that you've said that 
and
> you'll find out why I'm so stunned if you read Book 7. That's all 
I'm
> going to say.
> 
> So whether the questioner was right or not (and I think he or she 
was
> right on the money), Snape will play an important role in Book 7. 
C.



Potioncat:
Thanks Carol, the first quote was the one I was looking for.  I'm 
amazed I ever stumbled upon it given how hard it was for you to 
research.  

I think it touched on points we had been discussing in this thread. 
I agree, it seems to prove that Snape was the one who left forever.  
And as I'm currently re-reading GoF, that is how Crouch/Moody would 
have described him to LV. (I am off the fence.)

"You don't have to worry about Snape, he's tough."  I wonder if 
we'll see that or if it will remain behind the scenes.  Regardless 
of what we think LV intended in the graveyard, none of us think 
Snape has had a pleasant time of it lately.

It sounds to me too, that JKR was agreeing that Snape has 
a "redemptive pattern" to him and that we'll see it in book 7. It 
reminds me of another JKR quote, which I will look up if anyone 
would like.  Someone asks a question about Snape and Quirrell and 
she says something like, "I know Snape and he would never put on a 
turban."  Which I took to mean Snape wouldn't give his "self" to LV 
the way Quirrell had.

Potioncat

  




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Mar 15 17:06:16 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 17:06:16 -0000
Subject: And then there were none.
In-Reply-To: <c330un+edfm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c34nq8+q4lq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93045

>snip<
>  
> greatelderone responded:
> I agree Lupin is going to buy it. Why else would one need a silver 
> hand for, but to kill werewolves. Furthermore lets add Snape to 
the 
> kill list though I for one want him to become Headmaster at the 
end.

 
> Carol:
> I agree about Lupin and the silver hand, but please don't add 
Snape to
> the kill list! I don't think he'll be headmaster (he'll only be 
about
> 39 at the end of the series), but I can see him as DADA instructor,
> head of Slytherin (still), and assistant headmaster to McGonagall, 
the
> new headmistress. Just not dead or a traitor to Dumbledore. I hate 
to
> ask this question since I'm not sure I want to know the answer, but
> why did you add Snape to the list?
> 


Potioncat:
I hate to say it, but I wouldn't be surprised if Snape does die in 
book 7.  I was reading one of the books to my 8 year old and I read 
something that made me stop and say out loud, "Oh no, Snape is going 
to die!"  My son burst into tears and I learned not to make stupid 
comments. (Until I found this group, that is.) I've been trying to 
find whatever statment made me think that, but nothing has jumped 
out at me. 

I'd much rather he survive and glean some reward for all his 
efforts.  And I can see an academic career similar to the one Carol 
stated. But when he does make Headmaster, Old Phineas' portrait will 
have a place of honor.
 
Potioncat




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Mar 15 17:34:21 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 17:34:21 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 14, Percy and Padfoot
In-Reply-To: <20040315100715.81081.qmail@web13011.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c34pet+8nnc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93046

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Penapart Elf 
<penapart_elf at y...> wrote:
> I'm posting the following from Aesha on her behalf.
> 
> :) Penapart Elf
> 

snipping introduction<
 
> 1. If house elves are freed against their will, where do 
> they go? Can they stay at Hogwarts if they desire? If so, 
> what does it matter if a house elf is inadvertently 
> freed?

In mythology, if you ate so much as a pomegranate seed while in the 
Underworld, you had to stay.  So magic can bind you to a course of 
action, whether or not it was intended. But I would think if a 
Hogwarts house-elf was freed who did not want to be, DD would keep 
him/her on. I'm not sure what might happen at a different house. And 
we don't really know the "rules" for this sort of magic.
> 
 
> 6. We know now that Percy's letter wasn't written under a 
> curse, nor was it a matter of him trying to keep under 
> cover as a double-agent. Why would it have mattered if 
> the letter arrived during breakfast? Students don't read 
> one another's mail. Does he think one letter from the 
> estranged family member can turn Ron against all his 
> friends and family?

>From the interview with JKR, I understood he was acting of his own 
volition.  But does that mean he isn't undercover?  Or did I miss 
something? I haven't given up on Percy yet. His response in GoF when 
Harry rescues Ron from the lake, shows how much he cares.(Chapter 26 
page 504 Scholastic paperback) "...but Percy, who looked very white 
and somehow much younger than usual, came splashing out to meet 
them."

He certainly intended for Ron to read the letter in private, and I 
can see why he wouldn't send it to Ron at breakfast.  It wasn't the 
sort of letter you'd want your brother to read in a large group of 
people at a meal.

I also think there was a code in it.  Ron of course threw it away 
and I can't break it.

Potioncat





From carolynwhite2 at aol.com  Mon Mar 15 18:02:16 2004
From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 18:02:16 -0000
Subject: Dudley's Worst Memory
In-Reply-To: <c339ru+j295@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c34r38+7e1p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93047

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fauntine_80" 
<fauntine_80 at y...> wrote:
> 
> > (Carolyn originally wrote):
I think Dudder's worst memories are from when he is 11, and he 
discovers for the very first time that his wishes will not always 
be obeyed by his parents. A much-delayed, but salutary moment for the 
unpleasant little monster.
> 
> (Fauntine_80):
> Possibly, but he eventually came to accept that Harry had moved 
into the room, and he wasn't horror struck or frightened that Harry 
moved into the room.
> 
Carolyn again:
Well, firstly, Dudley didn't 'accept' the situation, he found he had 
no choice but to put up with Harry in the smallest bedroom. A serious 
shock to his system. Secondly, Dementor-induced nightmares work by 
bringing back bad memories exactly as they were at the time they 
happened, eg. Harry's repeated memories of the green AK flash, his 
mother's screams etc. My thought was that Dudders was induced to 
recall exactly his feelings at the time the Hogwart's letters started 
to arrive, and the subsequent mad drive over the country ending up on 
the rock. It all happened over the space of a few short days, and he 
ended up with a pig's tail at the end of it. 

When Harry sauntered back into the house, clutching his cauldron, 
wand and books on the evening of 31st July, you must have been able 
to cut the atmosphere with a knife. That episode must be seared into 
Dudley's memory I would say.

> (Fauntine_80):
> In OotP, after the  dementor attack, Dudley hides his face in his 
hand and he can't speak to his parents about what he saw.  He says, 
if I remeber correctly, he heard "things."  Plural, and the fact that 
Dudley is too frightened to say anything is a significant clue.
> 
My first interpretation was that Dudley could have been putting on an 
act and overdramatizing what he heard, or was he?
> 
The fact that he is so disturbed by it physically is a big sign. 
Also, Harry thinks to himself "what would spoiled, pampered, bullying 
Dudley have been forced to hear?"  is left completely open.
I don't think it's insignificant by any means, epsecially since it is 
left open.

(Carolyn again):
Dudley has been brought up NEVER to say the M-word, or anything 
connected with it. In a funny way, like Harry, he has been taught to 
ask no questions in certain areas. He has just experienced a big dose 
of magic, in the nastiest possible way - I am not surprised he can't 
find the words to speak to his parents about it. I don't expect he 
can even take it in himself.

My theory is that the bad memories he has been forced to remember are 
all episodes which have called into question his mental image of 
himself as the centre of attention/top dog, either with his parents 
or with peers, teachers etc. I think this all started with the sudden 
shock about Harry, but has probably also included things like being 
forced to go on a diet of 'rabbit food' that summer (ie realising he 
was stupendously fat, not well-built as his mother claimed); and he 
has probably been beaten up from time to time by bigger bullies than 
himself at Smeltings. And I hope that his teachers have been pretty 
caustic from time to time about his poor academic efforts.

I don't think it is insignificant either, but for different reasons. 
Possibly it will be the catalyst for an eventual change in his 
nature - though this might equally be for the bad, as well as for the 
good. A bully might well decide just to be even nastier, as the only 
way of staying on top. Certainly his parents are going to give him no 
useful moral guidance on the problem.

Carolyn
PS Pl. could you attribute when you snip - I only saw your reply to 
my post by accident. Thanks.








From houseofbohacek at earthlink.net  Mon Mar 15 20:27:24 2004
From: houseofbohacek at earthlink.net (klyanthea)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 20:27:24 -0000
Subject: Two Filks & A New Beatles Album!
Message-ID: <c353jc+difh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93048

Fly Together Now

(a Filk by Gail B. to the tune of _All Together Now_ by the Beatles)

Midi is here: 
http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Studio/7779/beatle14.html


Moody (the Advance Guard Chorus):

One, two, three, four
We've been sent by Dumbledore
Five, six, seven eight, nine, ten
To get you

Tonks, Doge, Jones, Vance
We're not taking any chance
Podmore, Lupin, and Kingsley
(seeing the signal of green sparks) There's our cue

(bom bom bom bom-pa bom) Do not stop

(bom-pa bom) If we're slain

(bom-pa bom) The Rear Guard

(bom-pa bom) Will remain

*Fly together now (Fly together now!)
Close together now!  ( Close together now!)
Fly together now!  (Fly together now!)
Close together now!  (Close together now!)

Up, down, left, right
We'll protect you when in flight
Front, rear, and circle all around
Surround you

*(repeat)

(bom bom bom bom-pa bom) Need more height

(bom-pa bom) Double back

(bom-pa bom) Stay alert

(bom-pa bom) For attack!

*(repeat until you work yourself into an ecstatic frenzy)

**********************************************************
Okay, maybe that one was a bit too simplistic, but I tell ya babe, 
*YOU* try to filk that song.

Here's another one...
**********************************************************

At Hagrid's Hut

A Filk by Gail B to the tune of _It's All Too Much_ by the Beatles

Midi is here: 
http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Studio/7779/beatle14.html


Hagrid: (shouted) YOU RUDDY COWARDS!

Harry: (singing)

At Hagrid's hut, at Hagrid's hut 

We were taking our O.W.L. test, the class; Astronomy
On the tower, with the rest, below us I could see

To Hagrid's Hut Umbridge did come
With several Ministry officials
I could guess why, and I felt numb
They went inside, the door was shut

Several minutes then had passed, pretending not to care
Soon everyone stood aghast at what was happ'ning there
 
>From Hagrid's hut we heard a bang
As they tried Stunning spells on Hagrid
When one of them then attacked Fang
He slang his arm and kicked his butt

(instrumental interlude)

Jets of red light bounced off him, as Dawlish tried to Stun
McGonagall was so mad at what was being done

To Hagrid's hut, McGonagall
Came running up, trying to stop them
Somebody screamed, we watched her fall
As Stunners hit her in the gut

Hagrid went nuts and knocked them cold
He picked up Fang and started to leave
Those still there were no longer bold
And watched Hagrid go with his mutt

>From his hut

>From his hut

Ron:  The spells bounced off him, I wonder how come?

Hermione:  With his giant blood, he was hard to stun

He's really tough

Hagrid! (repeat and fade out)

*****************************************************
Break out the butterbeer!  Most excellent news!  With the completion 
of these two filks above, the Beatles album, Yellow Submarine is now 
finished.

And so, without any further ado, I am pleased to present to all of 
you:

********************************************************
Flying Blue Machine

If you haven't figured it out, the Midis are here: 
http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Studio/7779/beatle14.html

*Yellow Submarine

Flying Blue Machine  by Marina 
http://home.att.net/~coriolan/secrets.htm#Flying_Blue_Machine
Every Flavor Beans  by Pippin 
http://home.att.net/~coriolan/places/food.htm#Every_Flavor_Beans

*Only A Northern Song 

Only A Sorting Song by Constance Vigilance 
http://home.att.net/~coriolan/faculty/sortinghat.htm#Only_a_Sorting_So
ng

*All Together Now

Fly Together Now by Gail B. (above)

*Hey Bull Dog  

Hey Grim Dog by Gail B. 
http://home.att.net/~coriolan/azkaban.htm#Hey_Grim_Dog

*It's All Too Much

At Hagrid's Hut by Gail B. (above)

*All You Need Is Love 

All You Need Is Spew by Lauren 
http://home.att.net/~coriolan/places/elves.htm#All_You_Need_is_SPEW

*SIDE 2*
(Continuous Incidental Music From The Movie)





From gbannister10 at aol.com  Mon Mar 15 21:48:45 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 21:48:45 -0000
Subject: Different moral standards (was : On the other hand)
In-Reply-To: <c33vnc+krg6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c358bt+kmhp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93049

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Doriane" <delwynmarch at y...> 
wrote:
> Del replies :
> 
> Hey, I did say at the beginning of my post that I was a defender of 
> the Bad People :-) !
> However, I'd like to point out that the Dursleys know pretty well, 
> in my idea, that they are not Nice People. But the thing is : they 
> don't care. Being nice is not one of their priorities. Being 
> respectable, fitting in, are their priorities. Being nice isn't. 
> They have a different moral code. I don't care about fitting in, 
> Vernon doesn't care about being nice, but that doesn't mean one of 
> us is right and the other is wrong. We just have different moral 
> codes.

Geoff:
As a Christian, I believe that there are moral absolutes (and I am 
sure there are others who will agree with me on that point at least) 
which define us as humans and the society in which we live.

Jesus was asked on one occasion about the great commandments and he 
distilled them into two. The first, he said, is that you should love 
the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and with 
all your mind; the second is to love your neighbour as yourself.

Some readers will doubtless disagree with me over the first but the 
second is in many ways the mortar of society and we can only get this 
one to work if we agree on the fundamental structure of society. Some 
of your aspects of society will differ but these are superficial ones.
The bedrock of life, the moral absolutes - not killing, not lying, 
honouring the family etc. - are the same in Harry's Wizarding world 
as they are in our world; if not, then the 11th Septembers and 
Madrids of this world become just part of a different moral code......


Del again: 
> The way the Dursleys treat Harry revolts me too, but I acknowledge 
> that they simply represent another morality, more "natural", 
> less "humane". I read somewhere that when a new lion takes over a 
> lion group, the first thing it does is kill all the offsprings of 
> the old leader, and the mothers let it do it, because that's the 
> natural order of things. Tough, but normal.

Geoff:
Yes, but we are human beings, with consciences and self-awareness - 
dare I say made in the image of God - and not animals acting by 
instinct. I doubt if your new lion senses any moral comeback when he 
removes the various offspring. The Dursleys, by the way in which they 
treat Harry, not only abuse him but belittle themselves in reducing 
their humanity.




From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Mon Mar 15 21:50:41 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 21:50:41 -0000
Subject: On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
In-Reply-To: <c34d98+dmhl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c358fh+jpt4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93050

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" <susiequsie23 at s...> 
wrote:

> Playing devil's advocate a bit here....  You have no right to force 
> moral standards on the Dursleys?  Why not?  Are there no universal 
> moral standards for treatment of others?  I find that unpalatable.  
> Civilization depends upon certain mores and legalized moralities, 
> does it not?  
> 

Kneasy:
People often talk about having 'a' moral code. They never say they 
have 'the' moral code - because there isn't one. There are thousands. 

Generally speaking any prevailing moral code reflects the society
where it is practised and for the most part is a standard of behaviour
that is intended to allow that society to function with a minimum of 
friction. So, different societies, different codes.

"Ah," you say, "but that means that the Dursleys should treat Harry 
by the code prevailing."
"Ah," says I, "why didn't DD and the WW stick to *their* moral code
instead of stuffing Harry into the equivalent of Dotheboys Hall?" 

If anyone's morals are  at fault it's DD's. He *knew* how the Dursleys
felt about the Magical World, James and Lily and  the treatment
that would be meted out to Harry and did bugger all about it; and if
he didn't know beforehand, he should damn well have known from 
Mrs Figg in a very few years. Did he do anything? No. 

What reason did DD give to Minerva that night in Privet Drive? He 
didn't want Harry growing up spoilt and thinking he was somebody
special. What better place to avoid that than with kindly, solicitous
Uncle Vernon. 

The Dursleys acted in an entirely predictable fashion - one that I
suspect DD anticipated. How else could he be sure  that Harry
would leap at the chance to go to Hogwarts? But if Harry was
unhappy, then how much easier does it become to slot him into
his pre-ordained role in DD's plan?  

But of course morality has  nothing to do with the case, that's all
eyewash; it's about pragmatism. And how often that beats morality
to the winning post! As a glaring example (and this will raise blood-
pressure in more than a few) it is morally inconsistent to support the
death penalty and oppose abortion - and vice versa. To be for both 
or against both can be classed as a moral stance, but a split vote is
not. Yet how many do so and try to claim the moral high ground?
That's not morality, it's personal prejudice, like many stands that
are made on 'moral' grounds.

It's been a while since I last dipped into my collection of quotations,
but this seems an apposite time, so I'll give you two:

"Morality is a private and costly luxury" - Henry Brooks Adams

"You can't learn too soon that the most useful thing about a principle
is that it can always be sacrificed to expediency."
 W. Somerset Maugham

Kneasy





From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Mon Mar 15 22:18:23 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 22:18:23 -0000
Subject: On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
In-Reply-To: <c358fh+jpt4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c35a3f+7qdn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93051

Susan:
> > Playing devil's advocate a bit here....  You have no right to 
> > force moral standards on the Dursleys?  Why not?  Are there no 
> > universal moral standards for treatment of others?  I find that 
> > unpalatable.  Civilization depends upon certain mores and 
> > legalized moralities, does it not?  
> > 
 
Kneasy:
> People often talk about having 'a' moral code. They never say they 
> have 'the' moral code - because there isn't one. There are 
> thousands. 
> 
> Generally speaking any prevailing moral code reflects the society
> where it is practised and for the most part is a standard of 
> behaviour that is intended to allow that society to function with 
> a minimum of friction. So, different societies, different codes.
 
Susan:
Kneasy, I suspected you'd ring in on this one, and I'm glad you 
did.  There isn't a *whole* lot I'd actually argue with you here in 
your first two paragraphs.  A universal entire moral codebook?  
You're right, of course.  We could look at typical treatment of 
children, the roles of women, the importance of/rights of animals, 
etc., and they would vary from culture to culture.  But I do think 
subsumed w/in those various codebooks there are *some* fairly 
universal morals [mores and/or laws against murder and theft are 
typically ones, are they not?].   

Kneasy:
> "Ah," you say, "but that means that the Dursleys should treat 
> Harry by the code prevailing."
> "Ah," says I, "why didn't DD and the WW stick to *their* moral code
> instead of stuffing Harry into the equivalent of Dotheboys Hall?" 
> 
> If anyone's morals are  at fault it's DD's. He *knew* how the 
> Dursleys felt about the Magical World, James and Lily and the 
> treatment that would be meted out to Harry and did bugger all 
> about it; and if he didn't know beforehand, he should damn well 
> have known from Mrs Figg in a very few years. Did he do anything? 
> No. 
> 
> What reason did DD give to Minerva that night in Privet Drive? He 
> didn't want Harry growing up spoilt and thinking he was somebody
> special. What better place to avoid that than with kindly, 
> solicitous Uncle Vernon. 
> 
> The Dursleys acted in an entirely predictable fashion - one that I
> suspect DD anticipated. How else could he be sure  that Harry
> would leap at the chance to go to Hogwarts? But if Harry was
> unhappy, then how much easier does it become to slot him into
> his pre-ordained role in DD's plan?  

Susan:
Interesting thought, that--that DD violated his own world's moral 
code in depositing Harry w/ the Dursleys.  I will enjoy reading 
others' responses to that....

You brought up that some would be sure to argue the Dursleys should 
abide by the prevailing code of British society.  I personally think 
they *should* be held to that code, yes, but even if one goes along 
with your argument--that DD & the WW did not stick to *their* own 
moral code--I still think this doesn't address the question I was 
hoping to get at:  If the Dursleys objected that much to having 
Harry dropped on their doorstep, if they where determined that to 
take him in would mean they would mistreat & abuse him, then why did 
they not pass on the "offer"?  Why *not* enroll him in an orphanage 
or turn him over to foster care?  As I stated in my original post, 
if they were frightened of DD--if they feared he was watching them 
closely & evaluating their "parenting" skills--they'd never have 
treated Harry as they did.  So why didn't they just say, "No way, 
Jose?"  Whose moral code to abide by would not even have been an 
issue in that, would it?

Kneasy:
> It's been a while since I last dipped into my collection of 
> quotations, but this seems an apposite time, so I'll give you two:
> 
> "Morality is a private and costly luxury" - Henry Brooks Adams
> 
> "You can't learn too soon that the most useful thing about a 
> principle is that it can always be sacrificed to expediency."
>  W. Somerset Maugham

Susan:
I just flat-out disagree with these, as absolute statements.  You 
love being a cynic; I find it goes against my nature more times than 
not.

Siriusly Snapey Susan







From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 15 22:32:29 2004
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 22:32:29 -0000
Subject: On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
In-Reply-To: <c3411l+11hjk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c35att+f64l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93052

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Doriane" <delwynmarch at y...> 
wrote:
> 
> Del :
> 
> In mine, they are Different. They are indeed awful by my moral 
> standards, but I have no right to force those standards on them. 
> They were landed with a baby whose very idea they hated, and they 
> received no help. Not that they would have accepted it, mind you :-
> ), since they didn't think they needed it.
>

Just one comment. They live in Western society, so yeah, I would 
expect them to abide by the predominant morality.

Actually, no scratch that. :o) As long as they do not act on 
their "moral standards", I would let them be, but as soon as they 
start hurting other people (Harry in this situation), I have no 
problem forcing the general norms of behaviour (like abuse is not 
allowed)on them. After all, we don't allow people, who feel it is OK 
to commit a crime a free ride.


Alla





From casmir2012 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 15 03:24:50 2004
From: casmir2012 at yahoo.com (casmir2012)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 03:24:50 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Holding the Tiger's Tail
In-Reply-To: <c301bh+c42a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c337m2+lqai@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93053

Casmir said:
JKR did
> say they were always intended to be just friends> 

Jim asked:
Where did JKR say that?  She did say that Harry and Hermione were
> platonic friends, but she said it before the publication of GoF, 
and
> it was true ? at the time. I'm not aware she ever went nearly as 
far
> as what you said.
> 
> That's our Ginny, no mistake.
> 
> Jim Ferer

Casmir:
Hello Jim.  You know, it has been so long I don't remember the exact 
interview, but I recall somebody asking her about a H/H ship and she 
made it very clear that they were platonic friends only.  She said 
she can't see H+H together.  Sorry I can't remember more...  Maybe 
someone else out there in cyberspace recalls the interview I refer 
to.





From averyhaze at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 15 19:36:55 2004
From: averyhaze at hotmail.com (onnanokata)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 19:36:55 -0000
Subject: Tom Riddle's Birth (Re: JKR Chat  "The Crucial ...")
In-Reply-To: <c33db6+e3bb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c350kn+u3es@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93054

I'm still working on getting the posting conventions right here, so 
please be patient with me. 

>  Jen Reese:
>  JKR's comment on the chat indicates there are additional 
>  circumstances about Tom Riddle's birth that we haven't heard. 
>  Perhaps even *Tom* wasn't privvy to this information either? Diary!
>  Tom in COS and LV at the graveyard are the two instances where we 
>  get information about Tom's past. Assuming Tom was told much of 
his 
>  history at the Muggle orphanage, then pieced together his own 
>  version of events from digging around once he got to Hogwarts 
(where 
>  he discovered he was Heir of Slytherin), I'd say there's a lot of 
>  room for unintentional error and omission in his self-reported 
>  history. 
>  
>  Could there have been events around his birth that led to Memory 
>  charms on the Muggle orphanage personnel? Did the mid-wife exclude 
>  certain pertinent facts? Were there inexplicable events that the 
>  Muggles chose to overlook, much like the Dursleys with Harry?
>  
>  It's not that I reject the psychological model when examining 
>  Harry's and Tom's childhoods, I'm just curious if what we know 
about Tom is accurate.

Jen,

I agree with you. There is quite a bit of room for misunderstanding 
in the history of Tom Riddle, and I would characterize 
misunderstanding as part of the human/HP experience.  

In my opinion, making choices and being marked by past events, does 
not invalidate anything that either of us has said up to this point.  
Riddle may misunderstand quite a bit about his young life, but what 
he thought to be true cannot be separated from his actions for better 
or worse.  The information we have about his knowledge not only 
implicates him in hateful behavior, but also a very large part of 
Wizarding society.

  My idea goes back to the larger story of a society that allows 
Voldemort to exist.  If the WW is similar to the Muggle World, and 
Tom Riddle was not born evil, then what information is JKR asking the 
reader to consider in order to really understand the evolution of the 
character from Tom Riddle to Lord Voldemort?  Harry's similarities to 
Voldemort don't really give us much more than a hero vs. villain 
comparison and black vs. white morality.  In my opinion, there is 
more happening with the characters than simple binarism.  Which may 
or may not fit well with what you are considering.

I'm a firm believer in letting JKR tell her story in her time, and if 
indeed there is something more to the youth of Tom Riddle that we 
need to know, she will let us in on it through the next two books.

Carol wrote:
> I really, really hope that his mother (or the midwife) didn't cast 
any
> sort of charm. It's one thing to have Harry owe his life to his
> mother's love. He grew up essentially good and decent without 
knowing
> that. (He doesn't know about the charm, if there was one, even now;
> only about the "ancient magic" involving his mother's self-
sacrifice.)
> It's a completely different thing for Tom/Voldemort's evil nature to
> be in any way traceable to his mother, who also in a sense died for
> him, since if it weren't for his birth, she'd be alive.
> 
> Nor does his father's behavior, however harsh and irresponsible and
> generally reprehensible, excuse Tom's choice to murder Myrtle, 
taking
> out his hatred of his Muggle father on an innocent girl because her
> parents, too, were Muggles. The murder of his father and 
grandparents,
> though he had a motive for one of the three killings, was also an 
act
> of pure choice and pure evil. Even if his father had murdered his
> mother and left him in a field to die he would not be justified in
> taking the law into his own hands and murdering him. And the
> grandparents, so far as we know, had done nothing worse than having
> Tom's father as a son.
> 
> Yes, Tom had a difficult life, but many children throughout history
> have been abandoned by their fathers (or mothers). Many children 
have
> been rejected and placed in orphanages. But the majority of those
> children don't become murderers. Nor do they make the conscious 
choice
> to carry out the "noble work" of some dead predecessor whose goal 
was
> genocide.
> 
> Whatever the circumstances of Tom's birth (which I also will find
> interesting), they can't take away his responsibility for the deaths
> he caused as a boy or as a man. He knew good from evil and 
consciously
> chose evil. And that, not the details of his birth and childhood, is
> what distinguishes him from Harry, who will not, I think we can 
safely
> state, be murdering Vernon or Petunia in Book 6 or 7.
> 
> Carol

Carol,

I don't think that anyone involved in the conversation believes that 
Voldemort is not responsible for the numerous murders under his 
reign.  Clearly he is guilty of hatred beyond prejudice and a few bad 
deeds.  He's a vicious killer. That is very clear.  Without a 
background, however, he would also be a one demesional character that 
others hae no reason to follow.

I'm also not clear that anyone argued for Tom Riddle's ignorance of 
good and evil either.  My point was simply that neither Harry nor 
Voldemort can be separated from his history, or the history of the 
WW.  We as readers do not have to like, or for that matter agree 
with, any of the characters motivations for making their choices. 

I think that we can all agree that resisting prejudice and hate is 
quite a bit harder than falling into its trappings.  I accept that 
Tom Riddle was exposed to this from a young age and then came of age 
in WW that was still quite prejudice.  I don't like, but I accept it 
as part what is truly happening in world of the character. I also 
accept that Harry is exposed to love and came of age 50 years later 
after a "civil" war.  If time and circumstance are not considered as 
part of the character development, then how much of a story are we 
left with? 

Dharma





From dudemom_2000 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 15 23:09:17 2004
From: dudemom_2000 at yahoo.com (dudemom_2000)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 23:09:17 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 14, Percy and Padfoot
In-Reply-To: <20040315100715.81081.qmail@web13011.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c35d2t+rl8f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93055

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Penapart Elf 
<penapart_elf at y...> wrote:
> I'm posting the following from Aesha on her behalf.
> 
> :) Penapart Elf
> 
>Snip< 
> 
> Questions for discussion:
> 
> 1. If house elves are freed against their will, where do 
> they go? Can they stay at Hogwarts if they desire? If so, 
> what does it matter if a house elf is inadvertently 
> freed?

>*****\(@@)/*****

Winky was freed against her will and Dobby (he wanted to be free and 
got his wish another way) indicated that they went around to try to 
find another situation but no one would have them. Dobby came to 
Hogwarts because he knew Harry was there and also Dumbledore's 
reputation. I would suspect that a different headmaster might not be 
as willing to take on a disgraced house elf or one that 
was "inadvertantly" freed. I also wonder if being Malfoy's house elf 
may have contributed to other wizards not wanting to take Dobby on. 
The only way I can see for Hermione to "inadvertently" free a house 
elf would be to lie in wait and throw socks at them and hope they 
catch them without thinking. It probably would matter a lot if she 
did that because the house elves would probably come after her since 
they don't really want to be free! 
 
> 2. Why does Mrs. Norris make some sort of contact with 
> those students she's suspicious of- making eye contact, 
> brushing up against them? Is it something to do with her 
> strange connection to Filch- does it set off a bat 
> signal, of sorts?
>
*****\(@@)/*****

Being a cat owner, it strikes me that she is definitely marking them 
for Filch's attention and they seem to have a true connection there. 
Mrs. Norris is definitely Mr. Filch's eyes and ears. I am a firm 
believer that she is a Kneazle and wouldn't be suprised to see the 
same sort of close connection develop between Hermione and 
Crookshanks.
 
> 3. What happened in the forest to make the Thestral fly 
> out of it? Is this just something Harry didn't notice 
> before, because he couldn't see them- or was there 
> something more sinister happening?

*****\(@@)/*****

I think this is just another reminder of how strange and alive the 
Forbidden Forest is. It also may be something as simple as whomever 
is taking care of Hagrid's creatures is also feeding the Thestrals. 
Also I think Harry simply hadn't noticed the Thestrals before this.
> 
> 4. Who are Filch's "sources"? Is it really just Umbridge? 
> If so, why didn't she just try to intercept the letter 
> herself? She made it plain that she doesn't trust Harry, 
> so why would this seem strange? How did anyone know he 
> was sending a letter at that time, that early, on a 
> Saturday?
> 
*****\(@@)/*****
Obviously Umbridge is keeping an eye on Harry but doesn't have 
enough information or courage at this point to start confiscating 
his letters. I believe she tipped off Filch to have him go check to 
see what Harry was up to. I don't think she or Filch expected him to 
have company who would vouch for him.

>Snip<
 
> 6. We know now that Percy's letter wasn't written under a 
> curse, nor was it a matter of him trying to keep under 
> cover as a double-agent. Why would it have mattered if 
> the letter arrived during breakfast? Students don't read 
> one another's mail. Does he think one letter from the 
> estranged family member can turn Ron against all his 
> friends and family?
> 
>*****\(@@)/*****

The letter would have mattered if it had arrived during breakfast 
because the trio would be together as well as with others. The 
letter was enough to provoke a strong reaction out of Ron and Percy 
is a big enough prig to not want his letter read by too many others -
he knows Harry does have some supporters at Hogwarts and Dumbledore 
is still there. He does care for Ron as an older brother and he 
thinks he is giving him the "real truth". I think the real purpose 
of the letter is to let us see the direction Percy is headed in. 
Like Umbridge he is blindly treading Fudge's path and refuses to see 
what is going on around him. He is more interested in self 
advancement with someone he sees as a rising star. Unlike Umbridge, 
he hasn't yet gotten to the point where the ends will justify the 
means but you can see him turning into an Umbridge if he keeps to 
the path he has taken.  
> 
Just my two knuts

Dudemom_2000

*****\(@@)/*****




From pt4ever at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 15 20:50:29 2004
From: pt4ever at yahoo.com (JoAnna)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 20:50:29 -0000
Subject: Something Small:  3 Theories
Message-ID: <c354ul+kva0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93056

Hi, all!  I'm sort of new; I was very active in HPfGU back in 
June/July 2000 (right before/after GoF came out) but real life got 
in the way and I'm just now returning to my pre-GoF state of HP 
obsessiveness.  I'm very glad to be back.

(Incidentally, in case you didn't know, this list is directly 
responsible for my marriage.  See 
http://www.geocities.com/jwalsvik/howwemet.html for more details).

Now, on to list discussion:  

Chelle said:

>>>
My theories:

1) Dobby and Winky are both small ;)

2) In book 4 Moaning Myrtle tells Harry 'all sorts' live in the lake.
The Durmstrang ship appeared in the lake. Where else can you travel 
to
in the lake?

3) In book 5 Arthur Weasley wrote a report on firearms. We all know
how much he tinkers with things. I actually worried when I read that
line. The last thing Arthur needs is a gun. Or a magically enhanced
one, for that matter.
>>>

Here's my theory, which came to me a few nights ago as I was re-
reading CoS.  (The following quotes are completely from memory, btw; 
I don't have a copy of the book handy right now as I'm at work.) 

Near the very end of CoS, right after Harry helped free Dobby, Harry 
says to Dobby, "You said this didn't have anyting to do with You-
Know-Who.  But..."

Dobby replies, "Was giving you a clue, sir.  The Dark Lord, before 
he was given his name" ['took his name?'  I can't remember the exact 
wording], "could be freely named, you see?"

Harry doesn't understand what Dobby means and shrugs this off as a 
bit of house-elf weirdness, and it's not mentioned again.  However, 
as we all know, these "little things" usually end up being important 
plot points two or three (or four) books down the road.  

As to WHAT Dobby means, I'm not certain... though we do know that 
names in the HP universe are very well thought-out and have deep 
significance for those that bear them (e.g., Sirius is the Dog Star 
and Sirius Black is a dog Animagus).

Thoughts? 





From pt4ever at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 15 21:41:10 2004
From: pt4ever at yahoo.com (JoAnna)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 21:41:10 -0000
Subject: Ron to follow Voldemort?
In-Reply-To: <c33ak0+q7bm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c357tm+2fhh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93057

Disclaimer:  I don't have access to my HP books at the moment (I'm 
at work), so quotes/plot points are from memory.  Please feel free 
correct me if I'm wrong with anything from the books.  :)

patchworkgirl82:
> > 5) None of the triad can die.  But something's gotta happen to 
> them.  
> > they just cant walk around triumphing over evil in every book.
> 

fauntine_80:
> Who says none of the trio can die???
> 

I have to agree with fauntine on this one.  I have a horrible 
suspicion that Ron will die in book 7 - more specifically, I believe 
he will sacrifice himself to save Harry and/or Hermione.  

This suspicion comes from two clues presented thus far in canon:

1.  Ron's new wand has a unicorn hair for a core.  Cedric's wand 
also had a unicorn hair.  In SS, one of the centaurs (Ronan?) says 
in reply to Hagrid's query about hurt/dead unicorns:  "Always the 
innocent are the first to die."  Cedric, an innocent, has already 
died.  Ron may be next.  (Yes, I originally read this at the 
Lexicon; thanks, Steve.)  :)

2.  In SS, when the trio are getting through McGonagall's giant 
chess set, Ron decides that he must be sacrificed to win the game.  
(He says something like, "Yes... it's the only way... I have to be 
taken.")  Harry and Hermione protest, and Ron says, "That's chess!  
Sometimes you have to make sacrifices!"  IMO, this means that Ron, 
at some point, will sacrifice himself to save Harry and/or Hermione 
so that Harry and/or Hermione can defeat Voldemort.  

I hope against hope that I'm wrong... but I think that Ron will be 
killed in Book 7, right before Harry's final confrontation with LV.  

patchworkgirl82:
> > p.s.  10 dollars says Neville's going to become a healer
> 

fauntine_80:
> I hadn't thought about that, but it makes for really good a really 
> good ending if he became a healer due to his parents' situation.  
> I like it!  He's good at Herbology too(possibly similar to Organic 
> Chemestry - major course for "muggle" doctors)

Perhaps, especially in light of Neville's frequent exposure to St. 
Mungo's while visiting his parents, but one would think that being 
adept at Potions would also be a qualifier for Healer training.  I 
can't remember if this was mentioned at all during the "Career 
Advice" chapter in OotP - I remember that Ron (or someone) was 
looking at a pamphlet, but I can't remember if the O.W.L./N.E.W.T. 
requirements for becoming a Healer were ever fully outlined.  

- JoAnna (who forgot to sign her name on her last post, sorry about 
that)  :)





From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 15 23:19:45 2004
From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (drjuliehoward)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 23:19:45 -0000
Subject: Tom Riddle's Birth (Re: JKR Chat  "The Crucial ...")
In-Reply-To: <c32c14+f0gh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c35dmh+7jkh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93058

<snip> 
> Jen: JKR's comment on the chat indicates there are additional 
> circumstances about Tom Riddle's birth that we haven't heard. 
> Perhaps even *Tom* wasn't privvy to this information either? Diary!
> Tom in COS and LV at the graveyard are the two instances where we 
> get information about Tom's past. Assuming Tom was told much of 
his 
> history at the Muggle orphanage, then pieced together his own 
> version of events from digging around once he got to Hogwarts 
(where 
> he discovered he was Heir of Slytherin), I'd say there's a lot of 
> room for unintentional error and omission in his self-reported 
> history. 
> 
><snip>
> Jen Reese

I have read the books through only once, reading 3 and 5 twice, so 
my memory for canon is not as sharp as most on this website.  This 
post made me wonder...is there canon about HOW TR "discovered he was 
the Heir of Slytherin?"  I have often wondered how he knew.

Julie




From a_b_desert_king at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 15 19:56:58 2004
From: a_b_desert_king at hotmail.com (a_b_desert_king)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 19:56:58 -0000
Subject: Snape and the MOM
In-Reply-To: <c34boq+1jb9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c351qa+frr0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93059

> 
> Susan said:
> I absolutely do not agree.  The point I was trying to make is that 
I 
> believe adult wizards--particularly those who have advanced skills-
-
> know about additional means of communication beyond those 
available 
> to Hogwarts students.  If the Order members have **as-yet-
undescribed-
> by-DD** means of quick, reliable communication, why would it be so 
> hard to believe that Voldy and his followers have quick, reliable 
> means of communications themselves?  (Isn't the Dark Mark a pretty 
> quick, reliable means of communicating *something*?)  No, I didn't 
> think Snape used Fawkes, nor even that his means of contacting 
Voldy 
> are the same means that he uses for contacting DD, but I just 
don't 
> think we *know* anything much at all about the multiple ways 
> communication can occur in the WW, and I think we should be 
cautious 
> about assumptions of what *isn't* possible.   
  
>snip<
 
> Siriusly Snapey Susan

Heather says:

I wonder if the two-way mirrors have anything to do with the Order's 
communications system?  JKR did say that we will see them again....  
Maybe they work a little like cell phones - each member has his 
own "nubmer" and can communicate with any other person in the Order 
this way.  Maybe when Sirius gave Harry the mirror, he not only was 
giving Harry a means to communicate with himself, but also all the 
other members of the Order.

Heather





From alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Mar 15 23:47:19 2004
From: alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk (alshainofthenorth)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 23:47:19 -0000
Subject: Bellatrix: Astronomical and astrological properties
Message-ID: <c35fa7+gqlp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93060

Since Carol asked and others might be interested as well, I picked 
the Internet and here's what I came up with. Credit where credit is 
due, first, here are the sources:
Prof. Emeritus Jim Kaler has a great website on astronomy at
http://www.astro.uiuc.edu/~kaler/sow/
Anne Wright's site has to be the best on fixed star astrology I've 
seen. Bookmark it. http://www.winshop.com.au/annew/

Some basic astronomy first: Bellatrix (AKA the Amazon Star) is a blue-
white giant star in the constellation Orion, with the apparent 
magnitude of 1.63, placing it as the twenty-fifth brightest of the 
fixed stars. Its distance from the Earth is 240 light years, much 
closer than the rest of the stars in the constellation.  

I've managed to trace the name Bellatrix (which indeed means female 
warrior) as far as the Alfonsine Tables of Toledo (compiled in the 
thirteenth century), where it is a translation of Arab Al Najid, `the 
conqueror'.

Astrological properties: Ptolemy said the star is similar to Mars and 
Mercurius and can give great civil or military honor. Also danger of 
sudden dishonor, renown, wealth, eminent friends and liability to 
accidents causing blindness and ruin. In a woman's horoscope, it 
makes her loquacious and shrewish, and gives a high-pitched, hard and 
sharp voice (though other astrologers considered it a lucky star for 
women.)

Later astrologers have connected Bellatrix with strong will, strong 
passions, fighting spirit and courage, but also a tendency towards 
hatred, fanatism and recklessness, and also violent death. It might 
create some interesting theories about Bellatrix and Rudolphus that 
the Larousse Encyclopedia of Astrology connects the star with 
marriage for money or honour followed by reversed fortunes.

Hope something of this is of general interest.

Alshain (has so little faith in astrology that couldn't move a speck 
of dust)





From tcyhunt at earthlink.net  Tue Mar 16 00:07:34 2004
From: tcyhunt at earthlink.net (Tracy Hunt)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 00:07:34 -0000
Subject: On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
In-Reply-To: <c35a3f+7qdn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c35gg6+5ut0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93061

> Kneasy:
> > "Ah," you say, "but that means that the Dursleys should treat 
> > Harry by the code prevailing."
> > "Ah," says I, "why didn't DD and the WW stick to *their* moral 
code
> > instead of stuffing Harry into the equivalent of Dotheboys Hall?" 
> > 
> > If anyone's morals are  at fault it's DD's. He *knew* how the 
> > Dursleys felt about the Magical World, James and Lily and the 
> > treatment that would be meted out to Harry and did bugger all 
> > about it; and if he didn't know beforehand, he should damn well 
> > have known from Mrs Figg in a very few years. Did he do anything? 
> > No. 
> > 
> > What reason did DD give to Minerva that night in Privet Drive? He 
> > didn't want Harry growing up spoilt and thinking he was somebody
> > special. What better place to avoid that than with kindly, 
> > solicitous Uncle Vernon. 
> > 
> > The Dursleys acted in an entirely predictable fashion - one that I
> > suspect DD anticipated. How else could he be sure  that Harry
> > would leap at the chance to go to Hogwarts? But if Harry was
> > unhappy, then how much easier does it become to slot him into
> > his pre-ordained role in DD's plan?  

Tcy:
I'm not sure about Puppetmaster!Dumbledore - but I have to agree with 
Kneasy (groan) on this point.  I find it very difficult to believe 
that Albus didn't know what he was setting Harry up for.  He may have 
underestimated some of the specifics - but I'll bet just about 
anything that he knew what he was doing. 


> Susan:
> Interesting thought, that--that DD violated his own world's moral 
> code in depositing Harry w/ the Dursleys.  I will enjoy reading 
> others' responses to that....
> 
> You brought up that some would be sure to argue the Dursleys should 
> abide by the prevailing code of British society.  I personally 
think 
> they *should* be held to that code, yes, but even if one goes along 
> with your argument--that DD & the WW did not stick to *their* own 
> moral code--I still think this doesn't address the question I was 
> hoping to get at:  If the Dursleys objected that much to having 
> Harry dropped on their doorstep, if they where determined that to 
> take him in would mean they would mistreat & abuse him, then why 
did 
> they not pass on the "offer"?  Why *not* enroll him in an orphanage 
> or turn him over to foster care?  As I stated in my original post, 
> if they were frightened of DD--if they feared he was watching them 
> closely & evaluating their "parenting" skills--they'd never have 
> treated Harry as they did.  So why didn't they just say, "No way, 
> Jose?"  Whose moral code to abide by would not even have been an 
> issue in that, would it?


Tcy:
How can we judge the Dursley's decision to take Harry if we don't 
know the circumstances under which they made this decision?  Judge 
away on how they have treated Harry - but until we know what that 
letter from Dumbledore contained, it seems silly to say that they 
should have just passed on the offer.  Perhaps there was no offer.  
Perhaps it was an ultimatum.  Perhaps Petunia opened the door to 
deposit her milk containers and the milkman was approaching the 
house -she grabs the bundle to avoid the appearance of impropriety 
and later realized that by Harry crossing the threshold, she'd sealed 
her fate as his guardian.  Too many unknowns to judge them on this 
one.






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 16 00:26:21 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 00:26:21 -0000
Subject: JKR chat--Snape the coward or the one left forever?
In-Reply-To: <c340l9+v9r4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c35hjd+10a6f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93062

Earendil:
I sincerely believe Karkaroff to be the "one who has left 
forever". <snip>
By giving away the names of fellow Deatheaters Karkaroff 
condemned himself to never return to the Dark Lord's side. 
And this would leave Snape as the coward.
 

Mo:
I really like your theory! 
It actually changes my mind about some things, and now I am 
starting to look at the "three" (left forever, coward, faithful) 
differently.
<snip> However, my question is, was Snape ever in the "closest circle"
of Voldemorts? I can't recall. Because, if he wasn't, he wouldn't 
have  been listed among the "three."
 
If you believe Karkaroff was in the 'closest circle' (indifferently 
as the one who left forever or as the coward), then it would be 
logical to assume Snape was as well. First, Karakaroff and Snape 
know each other well. Second, Snape's role among the Deatheaters was 
important enough for Karkaroff to mention his name at his trial. 
Besides, Snape was close enough to Voldemort to do some spying for 
the Order... And Snape seems to be a close friend of Lucius Malfoy, 
who was proven to be one of the inner circle...
 
I personnally think Snape was one of the close circle, but it's only 
speculation. We have no real 'canon' proof of his closeness (as far 
as I can remember anyway).

Carol:
He was named by Karkaroff in the pensieve scene in GoF and he
certainly was "called" to the meeting. His Dark Mark, like
Karkaroff's, was becoming more distinct (and probably causing him
pain). See my post 92945 on the Dark Mark:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/92945

BTW, I remain persuaded that Snape is "the one who . . . has left us
forever" and Karkaroff is the coward (whose flight from Hogwarts LV
must have been informed of by the "faithful servant," Barty Jr.). It
was Karkaroff's giving away the names of fellow Death Eaters that
caused his flight, which is why I believe that Karkaroff wants him
*punished* rather than killed. Karkaroff has not renounced his
beliefs; he has only run away to avoid punishment. If that isn't
cowardice, I don't know what is. (I can't see even LV construing
Snape's decision to remain at Hogwarts as cowardice. LV knows he's
there and that he chose to remain there both before and after the
meeting in the graveyard. How that decision could be construed as
cowardice, even by LV, escapes me.)

"Flee, then! Flee! I will remain at Hogwarts." Those are not the words
of a coward.

Carol




From nkafkafi at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 16 00:34:46 2004
From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 00:34:46 -0000
Subject: How can LV win the war in three weeks
In-Reply-To: <c339q1+mqs0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c35i36+ib6b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93063

> Carol wrote:
> I doubt that LV owns (owned) a photocopier and besides, he died 
(will
> die) in June 1998 (the end of Book Seven). Either that or the WW has
> been destroyed and we Muggles are next. <wicked grin>
> 

Neri:
Carol, just for the record, I'm quite certain that nothing like my 
evil plan to take over the WW with a self-replicating "Imperius 
virus" will actually happen in Book 6 or 7. JKR just doesn't think in 
such terms, and consequently LV doesn't either. I devised this plan 
as a purely hypothetical exercise, just for fun (I know, some 
people's idea of fun is rather twisted:-)). Saying that, it still 
seems to me that the idea is sound. The principle works quite well in 
the real world (unfortunately). IMHO a bit of standard programming 
should solve all the specific objections I've heard until now. For 
example, regarding "be a good servant of the Dark Lord" being too 
vogue, we could replace it with a list of specific directions, such 
as "obey any instruction of the Dark Lord and his servants", "Do not 
harm the Dark Lord and his servants in any way", etc.  Regarding the 
need to periodically reinforce the Imperius curse, this is actually 
built into the idea: since I haven't included a specific direction 
*not* to imperio wizards that are already imperio'ed, these wizards 
will be constantly imperio'ing each other, reinforcing the curse. And 
they will be doing it so many times that they are bound to get better 
at it with time. At least, I see no reason why they won't perform as 
well as Viktor crucio'ing Cedric, and I believe Viktor is a nice guy 
(if a bit grouchy) who would never crucio another person of his own 
free will. 

BTW I'm also sure that the magical equivalent of photocopying exists. 
It would be something similar to the Proteus charm, but probably 
simpler because it doesn't need to work at a distance and the copy 
does not need to change with the original. It should probably be OWL 
standard.

I don't seriously claim that the Imperius virus is the ultimate, 
invincible device of Evil. Like any other device it may be foiled, 
but the means of foiling it are also likely to be inspired by 
principles of biological and computerized systems.

In general, one of the reasons I like the Potterverse is because I 
think the rules of magic, as JKR describes them, lend themselves 
beautifully to ideas from modern biology and computer science. 
Personally I'm convinced that the first muggle-born computer wiz kid 
to be accepted to Hogwarts will be revolutionizing several fields of 
magic and be the youngest wizard ever admitted into the chocolate 
frog cards. That is, if he is on the side of Good. If he is on the 
side of Evil, then the Imperius virus is just a sample of what's in 
store for the WW.    

Neri 





From jhnbwmn at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 16 01:00:28 2004
From: jhnbwmn at hotmail.com (johnbowman19)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 01:00:28 -0000
Subject: Dudley's Worst Memory
In-Reply-To: <c34r38+7e1p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c35jjc+qvkt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93064

Hi all
I have not really been following this thread but couldn't Dudley's 
worst memory be when he preformed magic in the past? Growing up in a 
household where the M word is forbidden would cause Dudley to look 
back on times that he performed magic shamefully. His worst memories 
could mean that he is the one who will develop magic later in life. 
As much as I do not want to think about Dudley doing magic, it fits. 
Also I am sorry if someone already has said this, cause it would 
have been a waste of valuable replying time to read this. 

John




From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Tue Mar 16 01:18:07 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 01:18:07 -0000
Subject: The Grim?
In-Reply-To: <c32gep+679s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c35kkf+1qm8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93065

Snip of Kathy's post and part of Carol's:
Carol Wrote:
I do wonder if there's more to
> Trelawney (and her tea leaves and crystal balls) than she's been 
given
> credit for. I'd almost think that she was the person who's going to 
do
> (or has already done) magic late in life since she seems almost
> Squiblike, except that she's already given two real prophecies,
> neither of them in desperate circumstances. Maybe McGonagall and
> Hermione (McGonagall, Jr.) were a bit too hasty in their judgment 
of her?
>  
snip

Trelawny is an interesting character.  Several thousand posts ago a 
few people speculated (maybe you, Carol?) that She is indeed a Squib 
with a talent for occasional prophecy .  I don't think she saw a dog 
anywhere.  As a matter of fact, Harry's "vision" in the crystal ball 
from the end of PoA was more accurate than any of hers (Sorry, I 
don't have PoA handy but I know it is in the chapter where ST gives a 
real prophecy). 

I think it is more likely that she is channeling someone.  Perhaps DD 
even knows who it is. As far as Trelawny being the person who shows 
magical ability later in life, if she is indeed a Squib, this would 
not surprise me at all.  I see her as holding an even more important 
role as the story goes on.  There is no reason why Voldemort would 
not know who both spoke and heard the prophecy.  Many of his DEs saw 
the orb and the writing on it.  We do not know how long they waited 
in the DoM for Harry to arrive, but they probably had plenty of time 
to figure out who the initials stood for, certainly DD would not have 
been too hard, how many people have 5 initials?

If the DE's did figure out both parties involved, they probably have 
two new ways of accessing it: DD (very unlikely) and Trelawny, who 
most likely has some way of recalling or being forced to channel the 
entity who gave here the information in the first place.  

We have very little information about Seers in the WW.  We have even 
less real information about Trelawny except that DD saw her as 
important enough to hide away at Hogwarts to protect her (my belief 
anyway).  I doubt DD would be wrong about Trelawny's talent and he 
has as little respect for her day to day "prophecy" as MacGonagall.

If all of this speculation is correct, Trelawny could very well be on 
Voldemort's "most wanted" list as the next book commences, both to 
find out the contents of the original prophecy and to have a person 
who can provide real prophecy on his side.  Or maybe just to get rid 
of her so he can keep DD's side from having her occasional talents.

I put this together really fast, I hope it makes some sense!

Sue




From starropal at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 16 01:29:28 2004
From: starropal at hotmail.com (Star Opal)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 19:29:28 -0600
Subject: Filk - Two minifilks...
Message-ID: <Law9-F5pKQoClLZZxCZ0000206c@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93066

That Scar With Feeling by Star Opal; filked from Joss Whedon's "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer: Once More With Feeling".


The Detention
To the tune of _The Parking Ticket_

THE SCENE: Order of the Phoenix; Chapter 15
Angelina Johnson begs Harry to think of the team.

Potter, we're in a bad, bad way
Just put up with Umbridge so you can play
For tryouts you must show!
It isn't right, it isn't fair
We've got no Seekers anywhere
And we're sitting dead up in the air
Why can't you let it go?
You have to give the team your share
I'm a poor Captain don't you care?
I feel bad for Wood now I swear!
~~~~
The DEs
To the tune of _The Mustard_

THE SCENE: Order of the Phoenix; Chapter 25
In the Slytherin Common Room, having just read The Daily Prophet, Draco and 
his clique rejoice.

Draco *holding up the newspaper triumphantly*:
They got the DEs out!

Crabbe and Goyle repeat:
They got the DEs out!

*Pansy and Milicent do cartwheels*

_________________________________________________________________
Get business advice and resources to improve your work life, from bCentral. 
http://special.msn.com/bcentral/loudclear.armx




From kiatrier at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 16 01:33:29 2004
From: kiatrier at yahoo.com (Kia)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 01:33:29 -0000
Subject: How can LV win the war in three weeks
Message-ID: <c35lh9+j0cl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93067

>Personally I'm convinced that the first muggle-born computer 
>wiz kid
>to be accepted to Hogwarts will be revolutionizing several fields 
>of magic and be the youngest wizard ever admitted into the 
>chocolate frog cards. That is, if he is on the side of Good. If he 
>is on the side of Evil, then the Imperius virus is just a sample of 
>what's in store for the WW.


Dr. Strangelove.... Neri,

I think the first computer wiz kid is likely to end up getting 
expelled and obliviated for Misuse of Muggle Artifacts within three 
weeks.

See, cars exist for even longer than computers (well, as we know 
them, to not go all 19th Century on you) and Arthur still could get 
in major trouble over his Ford Anglia. I suspect the last Muggle 
Artifact that was officially allowed to be charmed, was invented 
exactly pre-Industrial Revolution. 

The WW is Britain without the Industrial Revolution. I am not 
going into detail, but I think that is very important to the Wizarding 
Society. They don't need airplanes or cars or anything silly like 
that, because they have magic for these things. That's partially 
an (imagined) superiority and partially lived independence from 
the muggles. They don't need the muggles and their technology, 
because they don't want to need them. 

And that's why there aren't going to be enchanted computer or 
even charms based on "muggle" mathematics, principles or 
programs any time soon. 



Kia




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 16 01:36:05 2004
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 01:36:05 -0000
Subject: halfbloods? Truth vs Beliefs
In-Reply-To: <c32u6g+sv1g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c35lm5+bpg8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93068

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "astratrf" <astratrf at a...> wrote:

> 
> Now me (Astra, who hopes she's doing this right!):
> Is there, anywhere in the books, movies or interviews with JKR, a 
> better way of defining magical parentage than just pureblood, 
> half-blood or muggleborn?  Riddle's parents were  a witch and a 
> muggle; Harry's were both wizard folk, though his mother was 
> muggleborn.  I would think there would/should be a separate 
> term to reflect this difference. Of course, to the elitist, anything
> but pureblood is "second-class", but we're mostly reasonable folk 
> here, yes?   Maybe we could create our own terms where they would be 
> helpful.  ...
> -Astra

bboy_mn:

First purity of blood is in the eye of the beholder. To some, I
speculate, if you have 5 generations of pure blood, you are a
pureblood, to others it takes 10 generations, to others still, any
muggle blood in your direct lineage and you are scum.

Harry is a fullblood, but not a pureblood. Both Harry's parents are
magical, which means he is a full blooded magical person, but he does
not have a long lineage of ALL full blooded magical people, and is
therefore, not a pureblood. 

But by other standards, he is the son of a muggle-born and that makes
him half muggle.

By another standard still, you are either magical or you are not. If
you are a truly magical person, then by virtue of that fact, you are a
full-blooded magical person regardless of ancestry. That is to say,
there is no way to be half magic; you're either magic or you aren't.

Which one is true? Well, truth is in the eye of the beholder. They are
all true based on the belief system of the individual who is defining
truth at any given moment. 

The reason we have certain inconsistencies in the
pureblood/half-blood/muggle-blood debate is that it is indeed a belief
system and not an absolute fact. In other words, how you are viewed by
any given person is not so much based on your manor of birth, but on
that purson's beliefs.

Restated ad nausium, in one person's view, Harry is a full-blood, to
another, he is a half-blood, and to a the next, he is a scum-blood.
There is no absolute truth in this matter.

A final note on the Sorting Hat, I'm not so sure the Sorting Hat
reflect any prejudice. Given that there is evidence or at least
indicators that non-purebloods, by some definition, do get into
Slythrin House, I have to believe that the Sorting Hat makes
judgements base more on conscious and sub-conscious personality traits
that on ancestry.

Of course, that's just a thought.

bboy_mn






From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 16 02:01:29 2004
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 02:01:29 -0000
Subject: On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
In-Reply-To: <c35gg6+5ut0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c35n5p+d3kg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93069

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tracy Hunt" <tcyhunt at e...> 
wrote:
> Tcy:
> How can we judge the Dursley's decision to take Harry if we don't 
> know the circumstances under which they made this decision?  Judge 
> away on how they have treated Harry - but until we know what that 
> letter from Dumbledore contained, it seems silly to say that they 
> should have just passed on the offer.  Perhaps there was no offer.  
> Perhaps it was an ultimatum.  Perhaps Petunia opened the door to 
> deposit her milk containers and the milkman was approaching the 
> house -she grabs the bundle to avoid the appearance of impropriety 
> and later realized that by Harry crossing the threshold, she'd 
sealed 
> her fate as his guardian.  Too many unknowns to judge them on this 
> one.


Yes, absolutely. It is very possible that Dumbledore gave them an 
ultimatum. I would not put it behind him after OoP. Still, though, 
Harry is blood relation to Petunia, if not to Vernon.

 
I'd think one would owe decent treatment of your orphan  nephew, no 
matter how freakish one finds him to be.


Alla




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Mar 16 02:20:45 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 02:20:45 -0000
Subject: On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
In-Reply-To: <c358fh+jpt4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c35o9t+45hg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93070

Kneasy:
> If anyone's morals are  at fault it's DD's. He *knew* how the 
Dursleys felt about the Magical World, James and Lily and  the 
treatment that would be meted out to Harry and did bugger all 
about it; and if he didn't know beforehand, he should damn well 
have known from  Mrs Figg in a very few years. Did he do 
anything? No. 
> 
> What reason did DD give to Minerva that night in Privet Drive? 
He  didn't want Harry growing up spoilt and thinking he was 
somebody special. What better place to avoid that than with 
kindly, solicitous Uncle Vernon. <

Now, now. Dumbledore never Fudges about the treatment Harry 
is going to receive. He only says it's the best place for him. 
Meaning, of course, that it's the *only* place for him. The Death 
Eaters go up and down the earth and to and fro upon it, and  not 
even Dumbledore can hinder them from doing so. They have 
penetrated Gringotts, the Ministry,  Hogwarts and Saint Mungo's.

 Where else would Harry have been safe? With Dumbledore? 
Hardly--even with  a wand to defend himself, Harry has just 
barely survived his five years at school. Dumbledore has 
managed to rescue him only with surprise on his side.

Dumbledore could have placed Harry with a wonderful family, 
and it  would have lasted until Bella or her like caught up with 
them. Then Harry would have lost his family *again.*  

In my view the Dursleys aren't so much immoral as stupid, 
ignorant and locked in a destructive family dynamic. The sad 
thing is that Harry would have been just as bad  off if the 
Dursleys had loved him. They'd have turned him into another 
Dudders, I'm afraid. 

Pippin
"Against stupidity, the gods themselves contend in vain" -- 
Schiller




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 16 02:38:32 2004
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 02:38:32 -0000
Subject: On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
In-Reply-To: <c35o9t+45hg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c35pb8+q5ke@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93071

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> 
wrote:
>  Where else would Harry have been safe? With Dumbledore? 
> Hardly--even with  a wand to defend himself, Harry has just 
> barely survived his five years at school. Dumbledore has 
> managed to rescue him only with surprise on his side.
>

Hi, Pippin!

Actually, yes, I do believe that Harry would have been safe growing 
up with Dumbledore.

He is the only one Voldy ever feared, is he not? Had Harry been 
growing up with Dumbledore (in his home, whereever that is, not in 
Hogwarts), he would have been protected by one of the most powerful 
wizards ever. 

But of course, Dumbledore had plans. :)


Alla






From nkafkafi at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 16 02:48:05 2004
From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 02:48:05 -0000
Subject: How can LV win the war in three weeks
In-Reply-To: <c35lh9+j0cl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c35pt5+rgc3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93072


> Kia:
> I think the first computer wiz kid is likely to end up getting 
> expelled and obliviated for Misuse of Muggle Artifacts within three 
> weeks.

Neri:
I sincerely hope not, for the good of the whole WW. Trust me, you 
want to keep such kids on the right side of the law.

> Kia:
> See, cars exist for even longer than computers (well, as we know 
> them, to not go all 19th Century on you) and Arthur still could get 
> in major trouble over his Ford Anglia. I suspect the last Muggle 
> Artifact that was officially allowed to be charmed, was invented 
> exactly pre-Industrial Revolution.

Neri:
I'm not sure if the Knight Bus started its life as a muggle bus, but 
that's hardly relevant for the end result. Just picture yourself what 
a Knight Computer will be able to do 8-) 

> Kia:
> The WW is Britain without the Industrial Revolution. I am not 
> going into detail, but I think that is very important to the 
Wizarding 
> Society. They don't need airplanes or cars or anything silly like 
> that, because they have magic for these things. That's partially 
> an (imagined) superiority and partially lived independence from 
> the muggles. They don't need the muggles and their technology, 
> because they don't want to need them. 
> 
> And that's why there aren't going to be enchanted computer or 
> even charms based on "muggle" mathematics, principles or 
> programs any time soon. 
>

Neri:
Well, I agree that JKR is not likely to write them. Much as I like 
her writing, she seems to think that computers are for blowing up 
aliens and mega-mutilating virtual enemies. But if the WW is even a 
bit realistic, the laws of evolution work the same and traditional 
magic is going make way for more advanced magic, if it likes it or 
not.

I think Arthur Weasley has it right. He has a lot of respect for 
Muggles because he realizes that their lives are much harder without 
magic, so they need to be much more clever. Arthur, however, is from 
a pure-blood wizarding family, so he does not really understand the 
principles behind Muggle science and technology. He meddles with 
muggle artifacts, but he just fits them with traditional magic. The 
real breakthrough, IMHO, is going to be made by a wizard who is 
clever enough and humble enough to apply principals of muggle science 
in magical devices. BTW it doesn't necessarily mean giving up the 
medieval setting. Wiz kids tend to like it.

Neri







From jujupoet29 at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 16 02:50:16 2004
From: jujupoet29 at hotmail.com (sienna291973)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 02:50:16 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Holding the Tiger's Tail
In-Reply-To: <c34iae+jg14@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c35q18+dto4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93073

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Tj wrote: 
> But Harry does like
> family.  Harry is jeolous of Ron's family, Harry wants a family.  
And
> Harry is very happy to be included in the Weasley Clan.  And I 
think
> that Harry would really expect his wife to be home when he was... I
> don't think he would demand it, but I think he would need it.

Of course Harry is envious (I think that's a more accurate word) of 
Ron's family.  I think anyone who was an orphan and had been raised 
by an aunt and uncle that hated them would feel the same. Family is 
the most important thing to a growing kid - Ron would feel the same 
in Harry's position.  My own take is however that this does not 
necessarily mean that Harry would be more inclined to be home-body 
than Ron. In fact, based on all we've seen, I think Harry would be 
amongst the last people to sit at home and let others have the 
adventures.

I agree that Ron loves adventure as much as Harry.  I agree that he 
is extremely ambitious. However, I think the thing that many of us 
pick up on, is the similarity of the Ron/ Hermione interactions with 
that of Mother/ Child. I, for one, don't want to see Hermione become 
a 'Molly'.  I think Hermione herself is more ambitious and deserves 
a fuller life.  Whether this is with someone outside the trio, or 
within the trio, is neither here nor there.

Just my two-bobs worth.

Sienna :)







From fredalss at ca.inter.net  Tue Mar 16 02:15:48 2004
From: fredalss at ca.inter.net (freda)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 21:15:48 -0500
Subject: Different moral standards
Message-ID: <a0521060bbc7c13d303b2@[66.48.151.79]>

No: HPFGUIDX 93074

>
>Del again:
>>  The way the Dursleys treat Harry revolts me too, but I acknowledge
>>  that they simply represent another morality, more "natural",
>>  less "humane". I read somewhere that when a new lion takes over a
>>  lion group, the first thing it does is kill all the offsprings of
>>  the old leader, and the mothers let it do it, because that's the
>  > natural order of things. Tough, but normal.



The Dursley's have had one child, and unless someone knows otherwise, 
they have not had other children so that they can devote all of their 
resources, love , money etc to the one child. Being very middle-class 
they want to give him all the advantages they can. When Harry 
arrives, no financial support is given by the Wizard World, and they 
see him as taking away from their plan. It would make them angry that 
their sacrifice of having only one child has been spoiled by Lilly 
and James being killed and landing them with the orphan Harry.

It is very much "survival of the fittest" making sure that your own 
progeny has the best chance of succeeding, in the lion case, that 
means killing the other cubs, in the Durlsey's case, it means giving 
as little of the resources to him as possible.


New here and wondering if "noms" are used and if so, how do I register my nom?

Freda
-- 






From ekrbdg at msn.com  Tue Mar 16 02:56:14 2004
From: ekrbdg at msn.com (Kimberly)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 21:56:14 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
References: <c35pb8+q5ke@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <008d01c40b02$403260a0$21d6f943@hppav>

No: HPFGUIDX 93075

 Hi, Pippin!

Actually, yes, I do believe that Harry would have been safe growing 
up with Dumbledore.

He is the only one Voldy ever feared, is he not? Had Harry been 
growing up with Dumbledore (in his home, whereever that is, not in 
Hogwarts), he would have been protected by one of the most powerful 
wizards ever. 

 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

But, the charm that Dumbledore placed on Harry stated that the place Harry
called home, be that of a blood relative.    It sealed the bond of blood that was set in motion with Lily's own sacrifice.     Yes, Dumbledore could have probably come up with another plan but perhaps this  bond of blood is the strongest there is, thereby making it necessary for Harry to reside with a relative.    That brings us back to the Dursleys.   

Kimberly


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From ekrbdg at msn.com  Tue Mar 16 03:03:06 2004
From: ekrbdg at msn.com (Kimberly)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 22:03:06 -0500
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 14, Percy and Padfoot
Message-ID: <00b401c40b03$35d55f80$21d6f943@hppav>

No: HPFGUIDX 93076

 > > Questions for discussion:
> > 
> > 1. If house elves are freed against their will, where do 
> > they go? Can they stay at Hogwarts if they desire? If so, 
> > what does it matter if a house elf is inadvertently 
> > freed?
> > 

 I don't think there are enough freed elves to really answer that 
 question.    The few we know of that are freed, certainly haven't 
 gotten very far.    Dobby has become a bit eccentric and Winky, 
 well.... she's one butterbeer away from drowning in her own 
sorrows.     
 
 
> > 2. Why does Mrs. Norris make some sort of contact with 
> > those students she's suspicious of- making eye contact, 
> > brushing up against them? Is it something to do with her 
> > strange connection to Filch- does it set off a bat 
> > signal, of sorts?
> > 
 There has to be some sort of unseen connection between squibs and 
their cats.     How else could you explain it ?    Mrs. Norris does 
 the job of finding those breaking rules and then immediately upon 
 finding them, Filch turns up.    

> >  6. We know now that Percy's letter wasn't written under a 
> > curse, nor was it a matter of him trying to keep under 
> > cover as a double-agent. Why would it have mattered if 
> > the letter arrived during breakfast? Students don't read 
> > one another's mail. Does he think one letter from the 
> > estranged family member can turn Ron against all his 
> > friends and family?
> > 
 I think he felt as if he approached Ron one on one, he could 
 present him with his own reasonings as to why Ron's doing the wrong 
thing and supporting the wrong side.     Maybe he didn't quite 
 realize that Ron was "in" as far as he was and there was still a way 
for him to talk Ron over to his side a bit.     He wasn't speaking to 
his parents and this could have been a way for him to cause more pain 
 to them by pulling him over to the other side with him.   

Also, something to think about....a letter sent in private, late at 
 night, one on one is far more "personal" and maybe that was done in 
the way that someone would put their arm around someone alone and 
say, "Hey buddy ol' pal.... let's talk.".      

Kimberly


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From arielock at aol.com  Tue Mar 16 03:03:57 2004
From: arielock at aol.com (arielock2001)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 03:03:57 -0000
Subject: Keeping the wolf from the door
Message-ID: <c35qqt+1dod@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93077

on: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 
Kneasy wrote:
"1. Remus has a patronus but what form does it take?
He produced "..a silvery thing from his wand.." on the Express in 
PoA, 
but no description of it's appearance is given.
There are hints that the patronus gives clues to a persons inner 
self; 
an animal form that looks a bit dubious might give  us  a clue to 
whose 
side he's really on. I thought it a bit odd that he didn't 
demonstrate  
his own patronus when teaching Harry how to do it."

Arianna suggests:
	Well, those scenes happen near the beginning of the book, way 
before Lupin knew the truth about Sirius's innocence...  I'm not 
sure if a patronus could work this way, but when rereading the 
book I thought that Lupin's patronus took the form of his dear, 
sweet, simple friend who was murdered while trying to avenge 
James and Lily: Wormtail.  Could this be possible?


Also Kneasy, I am the person who asked JKR if we should 
believe what the sorting hat says.  I still wonder if the sorting hat
just places people randomly unless they have an opinion.  
Please see message 87765.

Cheers, 
Arianna





From ekrbdg at msn.com  Tue Mar 16 03:07:44 2004
From: ekrbdg at msn.com (Kimberly)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 22:07:44 -0500
Subject: On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
Message-ID: <00f201c40b03$dbb81be0$21d6f943@hppav>

No: HPFGUIDX 93078

(Alla's comment)
>Actually, yes, I do believe that Harry would have been safe growing 
>up with Dumbledore.

>He is the only one Voldy ever feared, is he not? Had Harry been 
>growing up with Dumbledore (in his home, whereever that is, not in 
>Hogwarts), he would have been protected by one of the most powerful 
>wizards ever. 


(Kimberly's comments)
But, the charm that Dumbledore placed on Harry stated that the place Harry
called home, be that of a blood relative. It sealed the bond of blood that was set in motion with Lily's own sacrifice. Yes, Dumbledore could have probably come up with another plan but perhaps this  bond of blood is the strongest there is, thereby making it necessary for Harry to reside with a relative.    That brings us back to the Dursleys.   

Kimberly




From ekrbdg at msn.com  Tue Mar 16 03:13:35 2004
From: ekrbdg at msn.com (Kimberly)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 22:13:35 -0500
Subject: Snape and the MOM
References: <c351qa+frr0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <011501c40b04$ac746360$21d6f943@hppav>

No: HPFGUIDX 93079

>Heather says:

> Maybe when Sirius gave Harry the mirror, he not only was 
> giving Harry a means to communicate with himself, but also all the 
> other members of the Order.

I'm just curious, do we know for a fact that Harry could communicate with the other members of the Order ?       Or are you suggesting if they had the other mirror, Harry could communicate with them ?     I just don't remember Sirius referencing anyone else when he handed the brown wrapped package to Harry.    My memory suggests that he simply told him (paraphrasing here) "you can use this anytime you want to get a hold of me".      Just curious.

Kimberly




From ruminalus_ficus at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 16 03:19:17 2004
From: ruminalus_ficus at yahoo.com (ruminalus_ficus)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 03:19:17 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Holding the Tiger's Tail
In-Reply-To: <c337m2+lqai@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c35rnl+guo3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93080

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "casmir2012" <casmir2012 at y...> 
wrote:

> Casmir:
> Hello Jim.  You know, it has been so long I don't remember the 
exact 
> interview, but I recall somebody asking her about a H/H ship and 
she 
> made it very clear that they were platonic friends only.  She said 
> she can't see H+H together.  Sorry I can't remember more...  Maybe 
> someone else out there in cyberspace recalls the interview I refer 
> to.

The interview you remember was by Katie Couric on June 20, 2003.  I 
will reproduce the specific bit (thanks to Quick Quotes, full text 
can be found here: http://www.quick-quote-
quill.org/articles/2003/0620-dateline-couric.htm).

Couric: "Any snogging with Hermione?"

Rowling: (slight frown) "Hermione and Harry! Do you think so?"

Couric: "No I'm kidding. 

Rowling: "Ron and Hermione, I would say, have more potential (or did 
she say "tension") there" (A/N: I know this is a crucial sentence, 
but I had some trouble understanding her here? she mumbles the 
sentence a little. This is my best interpretation! Either way, R/H 
shippers around the world are grinning!)

Couric: We should probably explain that snogging means kissing."

-RF





From ellyn337 at earthlink.net  Tue Mar 16 03:21:27 2004
From: ellyn337 at earthlink.net (mclellyn)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 03:21:27 -0000
Subject: Something Small - 3 Theories
In-Reply-To: <c33m0i+lp5n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c35rrn+qpli@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93081

Lady McBeth wrote:
> JKR stated that something very small 
> would be a big part of book six. 


Gadfly McLellyn:
In my post 79476 called Dumbledore dislodged refers to OOTP Chapter 
26 where DD took credit for creating DD's Army to Fudge.  I loved 
this chapter - reread it and literally gasped out loud "this was 
never resolved".  

P622  OOTP US version

"Where will you go Dumbledore?", whispered Professor 
McGonagall, "Grimmauld Place?"

"Oh no," said Dumbledore with a grim smile, "I am not leaving to go 
into hiding. Fudge will SOON (my emphasis) wish he'd never dislodged 
me from Hogwarts, I promise you......"

One very small line that I think will be a big part of Book 6.  I've 
seen this predicted before and I said it in my original post -- that 
I think it will have something to do with Goblins.  That feeling is 
reinforced by the Fountain of Magical Creatures.  I think Harry will 
wind up uniting or at least befriending all the creatures of the 
fountain.  And the only being from the fountain that he hasn't 
befriended yet is a goblin.  He has Dobby and his centaur teacher who 
he is on good terms with.  Only one missing is a goblin.

Gadfly McLellyn






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 16 03:27:49 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 03:27:49 -0000
Subject: Apparating into the Ministry...
In-Reply-To: <c33hfa+jbf0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c35s7l+da0u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93082

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kashelkar" <kashelkar at y...> wrote:
> > > Kashelkar's reply:
> > > 
> > > It's possible that the only place where apparation/disapparation 
> is
> > possible within MoM is the atrium, however, in the scene, when Harry
> > lifts the prophecy from the stand, the DEs start apparating all 
> around
> > him, how's this possible??? Doesn't this indicate that, it's 
> possible
> > to apparate inside the DoM, that too in the hall of prophecies??
> > 
> > 
> > I think they were simply hidden in the shadows, especially since 
> Harry
> > doesn't hear any popping sounds. He hears Lucius Malfoy's voice 
> right
> > behind him and his friends (OoP, Am. ed., 780), and then "black
> > shapes" simply appear, noiselessly,  "out of thin air" all around 
> him
> > (781). "Out of thin air" is, I think, his impression of the event
> > rather than fact, just as "he knew he was dead" *815) and "there was
> > no escape" (816) are his impressions. For the reasons already 
> given, I
> > don't think the DEs could apparate into the DoM, or the particular
> > chamber where Harry finds the prophecy. They must already have been
> > there, having taken the lift just as Harry and his friends did. 
> Maybe
> > they even unlocked all the doors but one, which even Malfoy couldn't
> > magically open. At any rate, it seems clear that they were already 
> in
> > the chamber, waiting in the darkness for Harry to remove the 
> prophecy
> > from the shelf and for Malfoy to speak before emerging from the
> > shadows, blocking the way in every direction with their wands held 
> out.
> > 
> > Carol
> 
> Kashelkar's reply:
> 
> If the DEs were hiding in the DoM for some time before HP and his 
> gang entered MoM, what kept Voldy from going to MoM alongwith his 
> DEs, and pick the prophecy himself, then disapparate, and leave the 
> DEs to finish off the HP and gang?? If the DEs could get that far in 
> the MoM without raising any alarm, then Voldy must also be able to do 
> the same.
> Also, is it not risky for the DEs to keep lurking in the DoM?? What 
> if HP didn't turn up after all??  What if MoM officials and Aurors 
> turned up instead??  Who'd take such high risk??  
> 
> Another curious question:  Why the DEs didn't even try to put the 
> Imperious Curse on HP and his gang members (after all they have their 
> backs at the DEs)??  If successful, that'll solve a hell lot of 
> problems for the DEs.  Also, isn't it foolish on part of Lucius to 
> explain the importance of the glass orb to HP??


They wouldn't have been sent until LV knew that Harry was on the way.
There would have been little time for lurking. Besides, security was
already lax and they somehow dispatched the guard who weighs the
wands. There was certainly no need for LV himself to come since Harry
would serve the purpose with less risk.

Carol




From arielock at aol.com  Tue Mar 16 03:30:18 2004
From: arielock at aol.com (arielock2001)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 03:30:18 -0000
Subject: PoA plot does not work
Message-ID: <c35sca+qdev@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93083

I have been holding on to this for quite a while, but I am curious 
as to what you all think...

Regarding the time turner in PoA,   johnbowman19 wrote: 
"This is how it is told, but it could not have happened this way. 
How could Harry see himself, when he had not gone back in 
time yet? It is impossible."


Arianna hedges:
   While it is hard to explain, I don't think that there is "time
travel" 
in this book.   I think the time turner does not "send someone 
back in time."  I think it creates a Doppelganger (or a 
DoppelGranger in this case) of the person using the time turner.  
There is no "first time", all the events only happened once.   I 
believe we are told that a time turner cannot be used to change 
past events, not "should not," but "cannot."     When Hermione 
realizes that she had fallen asleep and missed Charms class, 
she did not even consider going back in time to attend the class.  
This is because she knew that she literally could not, it had 
already happened, she was not there.  

In folklore, a person with a Doppelganger (Hermione1 and 
Harry1) would not be aware of it's presence, only the 
Doppelganger (Hermione2 and Harry2) would know of the 
anomaly.   During the middle ages, persons believed to have 
Doppelganger were candidates for sainthood.

It also makes me wonder, if Lupin *did* see 2 Harrys and 
Hermiones on the map, maybe that explains why he was 
dragging the discussion in the Shrieking Shack on for so long: it 
told him that at some point, something was going to go very, very 
WRONG.

http://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/d/dopprlganger.html

http://webhome.idirect.com/~donlong/monsters/Html/Doppelga.
htm

I do hope this makes sense,
Arianna





From jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net  Tue Mar 16 03:48:47 2004
From: jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net (Robert Jones)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 03:48:47 -0000
Subject: Colin Greevy and Social Promotion
Message-ID: <c35tev+o3ig@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93084

Here in New York City, there is a big argument right now 
about "social promotion" of failing students, and since I am 
rereading COS I thought of Colin Creevy.  He was a first-year who 
got petrified early in the school year and unpetrified only at the 
end of the year, and yet in POA he is in year two.  Shouldn't he 
have had to repeat the first year?




From peckham at cyberramp.net  Tue Mar 16 04:03:38 2004
From: peckham at cyberramp.net (luna_loco)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 04:03:38 -0000
Subject: Dudley's Worst Memory
In-Reply-To: <c35jjc+qvkt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c35uaq+4tnl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93085

I would like to throw out another wild theory about what terrified
Dudley.  Dudley could be remembering an attack by Death Eaters on
number 4 Privet Drive shortly after Harry's arrival.

In support of this possiblitly consider the following facts:

1) Dumbledore has placed protections on Harry based on Lily's
sacrafice and the bond of blood (OoP Ch 37).

2) After Voldemort's fall, at least 4 Death Eaters resorted to
violence in a search for Voldemort (As demonstarted by Neville's
parents).  One of these DEs was Crouch Jr.

3) Voldemort knew of strong magical protection on Harry, while Harry
is at Number 4, at the time of his rebirth.  Voldemort also knows that
these protections involve an ancient magic (GoF Ch 33).

4) Dudley refers to Harry's wand as a "thing" and claims he heard
"things" during the dementor attack (OoP Ch 2).

5) Being told of Voldemort's return caused a reaction of fear in Aunt
Petunia (OoP Ch 2).

6) Dementor attacks can cause the victim to relive events from early
childhood (as shown by Harry's experiences in PoA).

>From these facts, the following can be logically derived:

7) As Dumbledore is not likely to talked to many people about the
protections he placed on Harry, something had to have happened for
Voldemort to know about the strength and nature of the protections on
Harry.  

8)Voldemort would not have been able to do any reconnaissance by
himself before getting his body back.

9) Dudley's reference to Harry's wand as a "thing" indicates a trend
to describe anything considered unusual in vague and ambiguos terms. 
A magical attack would definately be considered unusual by the
Dursleys.

10) Harry's protection being based on the bond of blood may also
extend to protect Petunia and Dudley to some extent.

An attack by Death Eaters does not appear to conflict with anything
that is known and can help explain a number of things.  The attack
would likely have occured while Uncle Vernon was out of the house. 
Such an attack would undoubtedly be terrifing to the victims.  The
protection provided by Harry's presence would have foiled the attack
and caused the attackers to retreat.

If such an attack actually occured then it would provide a Death Eater
with knowledge of the protections that were placed on Harry and a set
of memories that would cause fear in both Petunia and Dudley.  Such an
attack would also not be worse than Voldemort's first attack on Harry,
and would thus not be Harry's worst experience.  Uncle Vernon's lack
of fear when he was told of Voldemort's return would indicate he was
not present for the alledged attack.

Rebutals to this theory are welcome.

Allen




From siskiou at msn.com  Tue Mar 16 03:21:37 2004
From: siskiou at msn.com (Susanne)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 19:21:37 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Holding the Tiger's Tail
In-Reply-To: <c35q18+dto4@eGroups.com>
References: <c34iae+jg14@eGroups.com> <c35q18+dto4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <157393248.20040315192137@msn.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93086



Hi,

Monday, March 15, 2004, 6:50:16 PM, sienna291973 wrote:

> However, I think the thing that many of us 
> pick up on, is the similarity of the Ron/ Hermione interactions with
> that of Mother/ Child.

I thought JKR was trying to point out the similarities
between Ron/Hermione vs. Arthur/Molly.

>  I, for one, don't want to see Hermione become
> a 'Molly'.  I think Hermione herself is more ambitious and deserves
> a fuller life.

How would Hermione become a "Molly"? I assume you are
referring to Molly having many children, and (as far as we know),
not having a paying job?

Even if Hermione and Molly have similar
personalities, this doesn't mean Hermione will make the very
same choices that Molly made.

And Molly may consider her life full enough.

We don't know how Molly was at Hermione's age, and we may
never find out how Hermione will be at Molly's age.
Hermione might want to choose a career path and stay single,
or decide to have a family, or do both.

I don't really see her (and Harry and Ron) spending their
entire adult lives as aurors, hunting down one criminal
after another
They don't really go looking for trouble, even now, but only
react to threats coming their (or mostly Harry's) way.

-- 
Best regards,
 Susanne                           mailto:siskiou at msn.com

Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/





From lilac_bearry at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 16 04:24:44 2004
From: lilac_bearry at yahoo.com (Lilac)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 04:24:44 -0000
Subject: <FILK>  A Message From JK
Message-ID: <c35vic+89gq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93087

A MESSAGE FROM JK
a filk by Lilac to the tune of "A Message From the Lord", from 
Jonah: A VeggieTales Movie 

(This is my unofficial transcript of the March 2004 chat, with a 
little "artisitc" license taken on my part to make things rhyme.)

JKR:
Middle names I'll discuss
Ron's, poor boy, is Bilius
Here I'm not ambiguous
A message from JK

Remus 'John', Hermy 'Jane'
Ginny 'Molly', (what a name)
Sybil 'Pat' you've ascertained
A message from JK

And careful readers prob'ly know 
Exactly how the romance goes
Surely, the clues you've had enough?!
Won't say, but...it's not that tough!

H/C? Nope. D/H? Nope.
Mini Voldies? Nope, nope, nope!
But Wormtale might still have hope
A message from JK

Marauders? Gryffindors!
Ginny you can not ignore
No comment on eye colour
A message from JK

Vampire? Not my Snape.
Won't tell his Patronus' shape
By the end you'll be awhape
A message from JK

Weasley boys -- two year spread
Regulus is really dead
Not a rune on Harry's head
A message from JK

Yet there'll be time for some romance
A kiss (or two) he'll get the chance
For now the wizard world's at war
Harry hide! There's worse in store!!!

Sorry 'bout Sirius :(
I know you are all nonplussed
Please forgive, 'till then discuss
This message from JK

You'll see why in the end
Thanks for all the questions, friends
I've more chapters left to pen! A --

FANS:
Yes, please go and chapters pen! A --

JKR:
I've more chapters left to pen 
A message from JK 

ALL:
I/she must go, it's now the end
A message from JK!







From jujupoet29 at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 16 04:30:05 2004
From: jujupoet29 at hotmail.com (sienna291973)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 04:30:05 -0000
Subject: Ron to follow Voldemort?
In-Reply-To: <c357tm+2fhh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c35vse+6pin@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93088

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "JoAnna" <pt4ever at y...> wrote:

> I have to agree with fauntine on this one.  I have a horrible 
> suspicion that Ron will die in book 7 - more specifically, I 
believe 
> he will sacrifice himself to save Harry and/or Hermione.  
> 
> This suspicion comes from two clues presented thus far in canon:
> 
> 1.  Ron's new wand has a unicorn hair for a core.  Cedric's wand 
> also had a unicorn hair.  In SS, one of the centaurs (Ronan?) says 
> in reply to Hagrid's query about hurt/dead unicorns:  "Always the 
> innocent are the first to die."  Cedric, an innocent, has already 
> died.  Ron may be next.  (Yes, I originally read this at the 
> Lexicon; thanks, Steve.)  :)

I was going to post this as a new topic then saw this thread (just 
in time). There is some additional information that I've been 
looking at in connection with Ron's possible demise, his wand and 
the Whomping Willow.  What possible connection is there between 
these seemingly unconnected themes?  Take this with a pinch of salt -
 but it certainly is food for thought:

We are first introduced to the Whomping Willow in Chapter 5 of CoS:
 
Ron let go of the steering wheel completely and pulled his wand out 
of his back pocket.
`STOP! STOP!' he yelled, whacking the dashboard and the
windscreen, but they were still plummeting, the ground flying up 
towards them

`MIND THAT TREE!' Harry bellowed, lunging for the steering
wheel, but too late ?
CRUNCH.
CoS, pg 59

So we see that the very first time we are introduced to the Whomping 
Willow is as Ron and Harry are attempting to land the car. Ron has 
taken out his wand and thus does not see the tree looming before 
him. Harry tries to warn him, but is too late.


`Are you OK?' Harry said urgently.
`My wand,' said Ron, in a shaky voice.  `Look at my
wand.'
It had snapped, almost in two; the tip was dangling limply, held on 
by a few splinters


 Ron gasped, staring through the windscreen, and Harry looked 
around just in time to see a branch as thick as a python smash into 
it.
CoS, pg 59

Later we see Professor Sprout taking care of the Willow:


with another twinge of guilt, Harry spotted the Whomping Willow
in the distance, several of its branches now in slings.
CoS, pg 70

The year after, during the struggle with Sirius Black, we see Ron 
being injured in turn by the same tree he injured:

All they could see now was one of Ron's legs, which he had hooked 
around a root in an effort to stop the dog pulling him further 
underground.  Then a horrible crack cut the air like a gunshot; 
Ron's leg had broken, and the next second, his foot had vanished 
from sight.
PoA, pg 246

I won't add each mention of the willow in this post. I'll
only put one last one which is important here:

`Look at this,' said Ron, pulling a long thing box out of a
bag and opening it.  `Brand-new wand.  Fourteen inches, willow,
containing one unicorn-tail hair
'
PoA, pg 47


OK. So now that we've established that Ron and Willow seem to
come together quite a bit, we can look at the symbolism of the 
willow tree.

The Willow tree (Salix alba) has long associations with Wicca and is 
present in the mythology of many cultures. The botanical name of the 
Willow comes from the Celtic word `sal' ? meaning near,
and `lis' ? meaning water. It grows rapidly and has deep, tough 
roots and is therefore often found on moist ground and near bodies 
of water. It is very much associated with water.

It is associated with many gods and goddesses such as Prosperina, 
Hecate, Circe, Belenus, Artemis, Ceridwen, Morrigan, Morgan Le Fay, 
Dana and Mercury.

The Willow symbolizes forsaken love, mourning, grief and death, 
healing protection, fertility magic, strife and self-imposed 
chastity. It is associated with the Sea Serpent, Cat or Hare, 
Intuition, the Moon, and the fire festival of Beltane. 

In Celtic mythology, the Willow was said to hide two scarlet sea 
serpent eggs which contained the Sun and Earth. Those eggs were 
hidden in the boughs of the willow tree until they hatched, thus 
bringing forth earthly life.

The Willow is also associated with poetry and inspiration. Orpheus 
the Greek poet, is said to have received his gifts of eloquence from 
the Willow by carrying it with him to his journey to the Underworld.

The darker side to the willow is its association with grief and 
death. The Greek sorceress Circe is said to have had a riverside 
cemetery planted with Willow trees dedicated to Hecate and her moon 
magic. Here male corpses were wrapped in ox-hides and left exposed 
in the tops of the trees for the elements to claim. Old folklore 
advises that to plant a young willow and watch it grow would ease 
the passage of your soul at death.

Willow wands (taken from a Wicca site whose URL I lost - sorry!) are 
also used (apparently) to connect with intuition, dreams, seer-ship 
and visions. They are used to deal with emotional numbness or excess 
or where there are negative feelings to work through.

So what does this mean for Ron?

1. Willow tree ? associated with water
The Whomping Willow is of course near the lake. The same lake that 
Ron gets submerged in, in GoF, during the second task. In addition, 
Ron is a Pisces, a water sign. This sign is ruled by Neptune ?
more commonly known as Poseidon ? god of the Sea.

2. The willow grows rapidly and has deep, tough roots
There are many references throughout the books to how much Ron has 
grown over the summer. In each book we have references to Ron 
becoming even taller and ganglier. In addition, you could argue that 
Ron has his `deep, tough roots' embedded in the close-knit
and talented Weasley family.

3. Associated with Circe
It may be reaching, but near the beginning of PS/SS, Ron and Harry 
are bonding over sweets and Chocolate Frog Cards. Amongst the first 
cards that Harry collects (due to the fact that Ron already has 500 
of them) is Circe - who is of course associated in mythology with 
the Willow.

4. The Willow was said to hide two scarlet sea serpent eggs which 
contained the Sun and Earth
My first thoughts on reading this were that the Sun represents Harry 
(whose sign Leo is ruled by the Sun) and that Earth represents 
Hermione (whose sign Virgo is an earth sign and whose name 
means `earthly'). Is Ron supporting and nourishing his
friends until such time as they can `hatch' and `bring forth earthly
life' (the new order after the demise of Voldemort perhaps)?

5. Notice that the willow is associated with the sea serpent
and that JKR describes the Whomping Willows branches as being as 
thick as a `python' (a snake that lives in tropical and
sub-tropical climates).

6. The Willow symbolizes forsaken love
If the willow does indeed represent Ron in some way, does this point 
to unrequited love for Ron? People born under the influence of the 
willow in Celtic astrology (i.e. in March) are said to be beautiful 
but full of melancholy. They are empathic, dreamers and restless. 
They are also capricious and honest but will suffer in love.

7. The Willow's connection with water links it directly with
the moon goddess.  Possible connection between Ron and Luna?

8. The Willow is associated with grief and death
Here is the most important part of the whole analysis.  I found it 
particularly interesting that it was Sirius Black who pulled Ron 
into the Whomping Willow - Sirius Black who takes on the form of a 
big black dog (grim?) and later dies in OoTP. The Willow is commonly 
planted in cemeteries around Britain, particularly those near water. 
The imagery here is quite startling ? Sirius Black (the dead man/ 
grim) pulling Ron into the `cemetery'?

9. Willow wands are also used to connect with intuition, dreams, 
seer-ship and visions
Many people have theorised that Ron may have some latent seer 
ability. Does his Willow wand confirm this?

I'm not sure how far we should rely on such symbolism but, along 
with several other signs (his middle name, his jokes, the chess 
game) it doesn't look promising does it?

Sienna
(Who quite like Ron now that she thinks about it and doesn't really 
want to see him die)





From arielock at aol.com  Tue Mar 16 03:45:37 2004
From: arielock at aol.com (arielock2001)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 03:45:37 -0000
Subject: Umbridge and Trelawney
Message-ID: <c35t91+iomg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93089

This is another old post I have been afraid to send, I hope it 
might still be of interest...

Vecsey posted this regarding Umbridge:
>and WHY did she hate Trelawney so much?  She isn't a half
> breed, it just didn't add up.  


Arianna:
	I posted a theory that Trelawney is a squib in message 87093.   
I didn't mention the way she was treated by Umbridge, but upon 
reflection, this adds more proof to that theory.
	Umbridge hates Trelawney because she is a squib, it's that 
simple.   She and Fudge display a similar amount of 
dismissiveness and disdain towards Mrs. Figg during Harry's 
trial (OoP 143-145 Am Ed).    She doesn't seem to know that Mr. 
Filch is one, too, as she orders him not to perform any magic on 
the Weasley twins fireworks.

Arianna (who hopes the locked room where Lily worked  
contains Karma.  It *is* an old witchy belief that everything you do 
comes back to you three fold... Lily did defy Voldy three times...  
Harry seems to have a knack for deflecting curses and jinxes 
aimed at him...  it could all add up...)





From jenjar2001 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 16 04:18:42 2004
From: jenjar2001 at yahoo.com (jenjar2001)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 04:18:42 -0000
Subject: Confusing and Befuddlement Draughts
In-Reply-To: <c3483b+24ef@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c35v72+10ipp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93090

Jenjar:
> > But, if Sirius mood was being 
> > altered by some draught that Kreacher was slipping him without 
> > Sirius' knowledge, that would explain his less than wise decisions 
> > and sometimes seemingly out of character actions. 

Potioncat:
> I've read this idea before and dismissed it. But, I'm re-reading GoF 
> now and am very surprised at how different Sirius is. (Most everyone 
> else on this list noticed this much quicker than I have.) So now 
> the  poisoning idea sounds reasonable to me.  My question would be: 
> If JKR was having a character poisoned, why would she kill him in 
> some other way before the poisoning was discovered?  As I was typing 
> that sentence, I swear, a voice in the back of  my head said: To set 
> us up for someone being poisoned in the next book! 


Interesting points potioncat.  First let me clarify, I don't think 
the draught or poison Kreacher may have given Sirius would have 
killed him.  As Harry's textbook states, confusing and bufuddlement 
draughts were used to produce hot-headedness and recklessness.  

If this is what happened JKR could have had many, many reasons for 
doing it.  There are 2 possibilities that stick out to me:

1) If Sirius had been more himself and not unusually hot-headed or 
reckless, he might not have died.  

2) As things are now, Dumbledore is blaming himself for Sirus' death -
 he thinks he misjudged Sirius' ability to handle being caged up, 
which led to Sirius' reckless actions.  How will his guilty feelings 
affect his future decisions and actions? 

jenjar who hopes Sirius still has a role to play in books 6 and 7.






From ewe2 at can.org.au  Tue Mar 16 04:23:13 2004
From: ewe2 at can.org.au (Sean Dwyer)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 15:23:13 +1100
Subject: What's in it for Petunia?
Message-ID: <1079410992.27809.23.camel@ewey>

No: HPFGUIDX 93091

I'm still bugged by Petunia's insistence that Harry stays. It doesn't
make sense. Dumbledore as usual does NOT explain properly why she would
- he doesn't REALLY say what his 'last' was, but I seriously doubt an
explaination of a magic blood pact fits the picture. Vernon did what we
would expect, Petunia should have even more reason to be rid of Harry.

Obviously she knows more than she's saying. There is nothing explicit
about her being forced by the pact to act. She's in more danger with
Harry around than not - Dudley may well be a Squib, as some have
suggested, but that hardly gives her a motive to protect Harry.

What did Dumbledore REALLY threaten her with?

"Sean"

-- 
"NOONE expects the Death Eaters! Amongst our weaponry are such diverse
elements as...Fear! Surprise! Ruthless efficiency! An almost fanatical
devotion to Lord Voldermort! Nice black uniforms - oh damn!"





From jenjar2001 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 16 05:37:46 2004
From: jenjar2001 at yahoo.com (jenjar2001)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 05:37:46 -0000
Subject: Order of The Phoenix-spoiler
In-Reply-To: <bsrdnf+4cnk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c363ra+78l5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93092

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kevin, Anole & Family" 
<anole at c...> wrote:
> Hi
> I'm kind of late in the game , but I just finished the OoTP and was 
> amazed and depressed for some time about the death of Sirius!
> 
> Did anyone have similar feelings after finishing the book?


I was depressed for days.  It still makes me very sad.  But, I've 
read OoTP 2 more times and I really, really enjoyed it this last 
time.  I felt more hopeful.  I think with all we don't know about the 
circumstances of Sirius' death and about the veil, JKR left herself 
plenty of room to play with in books 6 and 7.  Some on this list, not 
too many, are holding out hope that Sirius is not really dead but 
just trapped or something.  It's not likely but possible.  It's also 
possible that Harry will find some way to communicate with him in the 
future.  I think it's important to note that as Bellatrix and Sirius 
were dueling canon reads  

"Harry saw Sirius duck Bellatrix's jet of red light: He was laughing 
at her. 'Come on, you can do better than that!' he yelled, his voice 
echoing around the cavernous room.  The second jet of light hit him 
squarely on the chest."  

Then of course he falls through the veil.  Note that we don't know 
what color the last jet of light was.  If it wasn't a green one 
(killing curse) then Sirius *died* becuase he was knocked into the 
veil, not because of a curse and this may not be a *real* death.  The 
same rules of life and death may not apply if that's the case.  We'll 
just have to wait and see.

Jenjar who hopes Sirius really isn't gone forever.






From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Tue Mar 16 06:08:48 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 06:08:48 -0000
Subject: On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
In-Reply-To: <c3411l+11hjk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c365lg+ht8v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93093

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Doriane" <delwynmarch at y...> 
wrote:
> suehpfan wrote:
> 
> > 2.   The image of the baby Harry at the Dursley's is a very 
> > painful one for me.  I cannot imagine the depravity of two adults 
> > in a house with a parentless *baby* not being willing to meet his 
> > needs (both physical and emotional).  There is no excuse.  No 
> > level of fear creates a situation which can in anyway excuse this 
> > behavior.  
> 
> Del answers :
> 
> I quite disagree with you. I know our western culture has this idea 
> that anyone seeing a baby in need will automatically take care of 
it 
> and feel attached to it. But that's simply not true. There are many 
> biological mothers who just don't bond with their babies instantly, 
> it may take days, weeks or even months, and a few will never manage 
> to do it without psychological help. It's still quite a taboo, but 
> it's true. And when there are deep negative emotional issues 
running 
> in the mother's life (abuse, rape, abandonment, etc...), the risk 
of 
> her not bonding correctly with her child is even higher.
> 
> And when there are as deep emotional issues between foster parents 
> and kid as there were between the Dursleys and baby Harry, I'm 
> afraid I have to call Dumbledore irresponsible for forcing Harry on 
> them without providing any kind of help or support : the 
probability 
> of them not bonding with Harry was so high as to be almost 
> inevitable. And it doesn't take an Inner Eye to guess what people 
> like the Dursleys do to kids they have to keep but don't like. It 
> was obvious from the beginning that things would go wrong, it would 
> have taken nothing short of a miracle for Petunia to fall in love 
> with her detested and feared and jealoused sister's baby, and that 
> miracle didn't happen. I don't blame Petunia.
> 
> Suehpfan :
> 
> > IMO, the Dursleys are awful.
> 
> Del :
> 
> In mine, they are Different. They are indeed awful by my moral 
> standards, but I have no right to force those standards on them. 
> They were landed with a baby whose very idea they hated, and they 
> received no help. Not that they would have accepted it, mind you :-
> ), since they didn't think they needed it.
> 
> Suehpfan :
> 
> > That said, I would not be surprised if Petunia and Dudley do a 
> > little bit to redeem themselves before the end.  Vernon? 
> > Impossible.
> 
> Del :
> 
> I don't see it that way. To redeem themselves, they would have to 
> admit they did something wrong. But that would mean they would have 
> to change their moral code to start with. That's quite unlikely to 
> happen and would feel like cheating to me.
> 
> Del

Sue replies:
Wow!  I am responding before I have read the other posts in the 
thread so I apologize if I am repeating but as it was my post, I have 
to.

First off I said *nothing* about bonding.  I don't really care 
whether Petunia bonded to Harry or not.  I also said it was the most 
painful for *me*, very personal, very specific.  It is of the utmost 
depravity in any culture, including most animal cultures (by that I 
mean monkey, wolf, etc.) to not care for the young.  Most of us do 
respond to an infant and small child simply because we are 
genetically programmed to do so, propagation of the species and all 
that.  Petunia *agreed* to take Harry.  There must have been a way 
for her to tell DD to take the bundle put it somewhere else. No thank 
you.  We have no idea what kind of agreement was made or whether 
there was compensation for Harry's care.  I am of the opinion that 
there was.

As far as forcing standards on other people, we all have a 
responsibility to be sure our young are cared for.  As a teacher, I 
was *required* to do so by the state in which I was credentialed or 
risk prosecution for negligence myself.  I am all for "to each his 
own" unless there is someone who cannot protect themselves, then "it 
takes a village" IMHO.

On the point of DD and his decision to leave Harry with the 
Dursley's, I believe he trusted Petunia to care for her nephew with 
honor, she did have a choice and she agreed to take him.  I think it 
was probably only after the charm to protect him was cast DD realized 
how horrible Harry's life was going to be.  It was then a choice 
between two evils and DD chose the one that was most likely to keep 
Harry alive and humble so he could rise to the challenges ahead.

You are absolutely right to say that they would have to realize 
the "wrongness" of their behavior.  If you would be disappointed, I 
would be thrilled.  It is so much easier for people who have suffered 
abuse to heal when the people who did the abusing acknowledge the 
error of their ways.  I wish for Harry some path through the 
wilderness for at least part of what he has suffered.

I suspect we will have to agree to disagree on the Dursleys.  
Everyone is redeemable (even Uncle Vernon :P), I hope they do redeem 
themselves and do something right for once.  As far as I'm concerned 
they have no "moral code" they have a conformist code but there is 
nothing moral about it.

Sue





From greatelderone at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 16 06:23:32 2004
From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 06:23:32 -0000
Subject: What's in it for Petunia?
In-Reply-To: <1079410992.27809.23.camel@ewey>
Message-ID: <c366h4+7pv2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93094

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Sean Dwyer <ewe2 at c...> wrote:
> I'm still bugged by Petunia's insistence that Harry stays. It 
doesn't
> make sense. Dumbledore as usual does NOT explain properly why she 
would
> - he doesn't REALLY say what his 'last' was, but I seriously doubt 
an
> explaination of a magic blood pact fits the picture. Vernon did 
what we
> would expect, Petunia should have even more reason to be rid of 
Harry.

And you are forgetting we are dealing with well rounded characters in 
the instance of Petunia while Vernon and Dudley are parodies and 
caricatures. Most likely she doesn't want him to die since Harry is 
his sister's son and secondly she raised him from a toddler to the 
age when he went to hogwarts so there must have been some motherly 
instinct within her in regards to Harry.

> Obviously she knows more than she's saying. There is nothing 
explicit
> about her being forced by the pact to act. She's in more danger with
> Harry around than not - Dudley may well be a Squib, as some have
> suggested, but that hardly gives her a motive to protect Harry.

Dudley isn't a squib. Squibs are non-magical children born of a 
magical parent. Neither Petunia or Vernon are magical. 

> What did Dumbledore REALLY threaten her with?
> 
> "Sean"

That she would have a hand in Harry's death if she threw him out? 
Really the woman isn't as cold blooded or evil compared to Vernon and 
Dudley. She actually has her redeeming qualities despite being weak.




From greatelderone at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 16 06:39:26 2004
From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 06:39:26 -0000
Subject: And then there were none.
In-Reply-To: <c330un+edfm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c367eu+2v2o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93095

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" 
<justcarol67 at y...> wrote:
> Carol:
> I agree about Lupin and the silver hand, but please don't add Snape 
to
> the kill list! I don't think he'll be headmaster (he'll only be 
about
> 39 at the end of the series), but I can see him as DADA instructor,
> head of Slytherin (still), and assistant headmaster to McGonagall, 
the
> new headmistress. 

I don't think McGonagall is going to live long enough to become 
headmaster herself. There's a few references in ootp about her buying 
the farm.

And I doubt Snape is ever going to become the DADA teacher.

> Just not dead or a traitor to Dumbledore. I hate to
> ask this question since I'm not sure I want to know the answer, but
> why did you add Snape to the list?

Because of the six major representatives of Lily and James's 
generation three are dead(Sirius, Lily and James) and two are 
probably going to end up dead(Remus and Pettigrew) so with the whole 
law of averages and everything I think it's probable that Severeus 
dies and joins them.




From jhnbwmn at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 16 07:07:17 2004
From: jhnbwmn at hotmail.com (johnbowman19)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 07:07:17 -0000
Subject: Dudley's Worst Memory
In-Reply-To: <c35uaq+4tnl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c36935+5j40@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93096

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "luna_loco" <peckham at c...> 
wrote:
> I would like to throw out another wild theory about what terrified
> Dudley.  Dudley could be remembering an attack by Death Eaters on
> number 4 Privet Drive shortly after Harry's arrival.
> 
> In support of this possiblitly consider the following facts:
> 
> 1) Dumbledore has placed protections on Harry based on Lily's
> sacrafice and the bond of blood (OoP Ch 37).
> 
> 2) After Voldemort's fall, at least 4 Death Eaters resorted to
> violence in a search for Voldemort (As demonstarted by Neville's
> parents).  One of these DEs was Crouch Jr.
But we do not know if any others resorted to violence. What we do 
know is that the ones who did were caught. So it is reasonable to 
assume that a group od DE's who no longer have thier master would 
also be caught (unless they turned out like Malfoy). 
>
> 3) Voldemort knew of strong magical protection on Harry, while 
Harry
> is at Number 4, at the time of his rebirth.  Voldemort also knows 
that
> these protections involve an ancient magic (GoF Ch 33).
This is true Voldemort knew about the protections. But it is 
reasonable to assume that and intelligent wizard like Voldemort 
could deduce that DD would not leave HArry unprotected in his aunt's 
house. And since Voldemort spent the better part of 14 years without 
a body, coupled with the fact that Voldemort had to will himself 
into existence without sleep, we can also assume that Voldemort had 
alot of time to think sans body. 14 years of thought for and 
intelligent person will lead to accurate statements. Voldemort also 
says in the Graveyard scene that he should have known about the 
magic that saved Harry. This means that he knew of the ancient magic 
but ignored it to his error. So if Voldemort knows some ancient 
magic already (how Harry survived) it is logical to assume that he 
knows of other forms of ancient magic. Plus there is the fact that 
even DD thinks that Voldemort has the most extensive knowledge of 
magic of any wizard alive. If Voldemort knows magic the best he 
should know possible countermeasures for protection.
> 
> 4) Dudley refers to Harry's wand as a "thing" and claims he heard
> "things" during the dementor attack (OoP Ch 2).
The word "thing" is ambiguous at best. "thing" is a noun and as such 
it can refer person, places, objects, or ideas. Although it is 
usually limited to objects and ideas. So if dudley called HArry's 
wand the same word he used to describe the images he saw in his mind 
what does that imply? One can infer from your use of the 
word "thing" that dudley saw wands in his head. But when dementors 
attack images are not presented. Only sounds are given in texts. So 
how does one hear a wand? there are to many noises a wand can make, 
and there is the fact that Harry did not use his wand so Dudley 
could not hear harry's wand. 
> 5) Being told of Voldemort's return caused a reaction of fear in 
Aunt
> Petunia (OoP Ch 2).
There is another logical explination for why Petunia felt fear. And 
that is because her sister was murdered by Voldemort. And the years 
that her sister went to Hogwarts were also the years that Voldemort 
came to power. So if Petunia knows about dementors from a 
conversation she overheard from her sister couldn't Petunia have 
heard Voldemorts name in another conersation? (also we can assume 
that Lily used Voldemort's name because peers of james and lily use 
his name). 
> 
> 6) Dementor attacks can cause the victim to relive events from 
early
> childhood (as shown by Harry's experiences in PoA)
Again I do not recall in the canon where the subjects of dementor 
attacks "relive" thier worst memories, they victims merely hear them 
as in Harry's case. (true Harry may have been too young to recall 
images when his worst memory happened, but We do not know what 
happens when another person is attacked. 
> 
> From these facts, the following can be logically derived:
> 
> 7) As Dumbledore is not likely to talked to many people about the
> protections he placed on Harry, something had to have happened for
> Voldemort to know about the strength and nature of the protections 
on
> Harry.  
> 
I assume that the protections placed on Harry are ancient magic and 
as such only the most knowledgeable wizards would know about the 
possible protections. Also there is another incident that could help 
to explain Voldemort's knowledge of Harry's protection and that is 
when Harry fights Quirrel. Voldemort would have seen what happened 
to Quirrel and could then use his next 3 years trying and succeeding 
in understanding the nature and strength of Harry's protections. 
> 8)Voldemort would not have been able to do any reconnaissance by
> himself before getting his body back.
Again DD said that Voldemort knows magic the best of an wizard 
alive. If he knows magic the best then he should know what DD knows 
about ancient magic too because Voldemort being the best would knoe 
what the 2nd best would know, plus some. 
> 
> 9) Dudley's reference to Harry's wand as a "thing" indicates a 
trend
> to describe anything considered unusual in vague and ambiguos 
terms. 
> A magical attack would definately be considered unusual by the
> Dursleys.
No the word "thing" is used to describe something he does not 
understand. You use the word "thing" when you do not know the proper 
word to use. You do not use the word "thing" when describing a near 
death encounter. instead some possible words Dudley would use to 
describe the attack you say happened are "the attack' or "those men" 
or how about "the wierdos"?  
> 10) Harry's protection being based on the bond of blood may also
> extend to protect Petunia and Dudley to some extent.
Yes I believe that JKR said in her most recent interview that the 
protection is a 2 way thing.
> An attack by Death Eaters does not appear to conflict with anything
> that is known and can help explain a number of things.  The attack
> would likely have occured while Uncle Vernon was out of the house. 
> Such an attack would undoubtedly be terrifing to the victims.  The
> protection provided by Harry's presence would have foiled the 
attack
> and caused the attackers to retreat.
I feel and attack would contradict cannon. If dudely can remeber the 
attack why cannot Harry? If there was an attack why did Petunia not 
tell her husband or call the police? If there was an attack why not 
attack Harry again when he is alone and out of the house? The DEs 
have not attack and i feel the reason is because the DE's and 
Voldemort do not really know where Privet dr is. One of the 
protections Voldemort placed on Harry could have made the house 
unplottable. Also Voldemort never says Privet drive when refering to 
Harry's blood relative. He only says that he knows DD put Harry with 
Harry's blood relative which would be necessary to envoke the 
ancient magic that Voldemort and DD oth understand.  

> If such an attack actually occured then it would provide a Death 
Eater
> with knowledge of the protections that were placed on Harry and a 
set
> of memories that would cause fear in both Petunia and Dudley.  
Such an
> attack would also not be worse than Voldemort's first attack on 
Harry,
> and would thus not be Harry's worst experience.  Uncle Vernon's 
lack
> of fear when he was told of Voldemort's return would indicate he 
was
> not present for the alledged attack.
Based on the premises you have given there are too many holes in my 
eyes to say an attack happened. Usually when we try to deduce 
something logically it is when we have more facts and history, not 
merely and 15 year old boy's story. And I think that if Petunia and 
Dudley were attack it would be very hard to keep and spoiled brat 
like Dudley's mouth shut. And Dudley would even be eager to 
blackmail his Mom for more presents with this knowledge of an 
attack. It would have been too big of a scandel to cover up. Plus 
there is the fact that we know the MOM has been keeping a very close 
eye on Privet drive so if any DE's did show up it is unlikely that 
they would have time to attack because of how fast the MOM can 
respond to a simple over charm. 
> 
> Rebutals to this theory are welcome.
I hope I have given enough evidence and logic to rbute your theory, 
but if not just point out where i was wrong, and i will try to 
correct it. And i do feel that maybe this is a possibility but a 15 
year olds story is not enough background to come to logical concrete 
conclusions. 

John who likes logic




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 16 07:23:24 2004
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 07:23:24 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 14, Percy and Padfoot
In-Reply-To: <20040315100715.81081.qmail@web13011.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c36a1c+usbf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93097

Questions for discussion:

1. If house elves are freed against their will, where do
they go? Can they stay at Hogwarts if they desire? If so,
what does it matter if a house elf is inadvertently
freed?

bboy_mn:
First, no one has, as of yet, has convinced me that a house-elf can be
free by anyone other than the people who have the authority to do so.
The thought that an elf is instantly freed simply because it touches
clothes just doesn't fit. Nor does the thought that elves can be freed
by any random person walking by, or that they can be freed 'against
their will'. Exactly what does 'against their will' mean in this context?

Hermione, as smart as she is, is still a kid, and just as prone to
impulsive thinking and impulsive actions. I'm sure when she thought of
this grand plan, it made great sense, but that is because she went
with her impulse instead of thinking it through.

That's how kid's minds work, they focus on the event but never look
past it to the result or consequences. Jumping from a roof with an
umbrella for a parachute sounds like a great idea to a kid, but they
only look at the jump, and aren't far sighted enough to look at the
landing or consider the possibility that it might not work at all.

Hermione can no more free the elves by knitting them hats than I can
walk into a random business and start firing employees. She doesn't
have the authority; I don't have the authority.

As far as the 'against their will' part, that's the wrong question.
Nobody, with a few extremely minor exceptions, wants to be fired,
that's a given. The real question that must be asked is, does Hermione
have the authority to fire Hogwart's house-elves? 

Many people have speculated possible scenerios in which a student
might have the authority; they are SCHOOL students and the elves work
for the SCHOOL, since they are both part of the school, and since the
elves are the servants, then the students, as a part of the school,
can fire the elves. If you believe that path of logic, then you must
also reasonably believe that Harry can fire Snape. That seems to be an
application of the identical priniple, but when couched in that
context, we can see how ridiculous it is.

Summary; Hermione was completely misguided by her youthful enthusiasm,
and couldn't have freed so much as a Hogwart's housefly with her plan.


2. Why does Mrs. Norris make some sort of contact with
those students she's suspicious of- making eye contact,
brushing up against them? Is it something to do with her
strange connection to Filch- does it set off a bat
signal, of sorts?

bboy_mn:
It's seem very likely from the examples of Filch and Mrs. Figg, that
Squibs have an affinity with cats. Hints and clues are that they can
communicate to a far greater degree than common cat owners and their
cats. So, we see both Filch and Figg using their cat to spy for them.

As far as the looks or eye contact, I think those are just accusatory
stare, and the leg brushing is just natural cat behavior.



3. What happened in the forest to make the Thestral fly
out of it? Is this just something Harry didn't notice
before, because he couldn't see them- or was there
something more sinister happening?

bboy_mn:

I can't think of anything in the book that could be tied to that
Thestral sighting, but I am very strongly reminded of the last time
Harry observed a creature from the Owl Tower. In GoF, Harry sees an
Eagle owl soar by moving toward the castle, we later learn that that
was a message from Voldemort to fake!Moody. So, I am very suspicious
of the Thestral sighting, but can't tie it directly to anything,
unless perhaps is might have been the scuffle between Firenze, the
other Centaurs, and Hagrid. Although, even I will admit that is an
extremely weak possibility since it occurs early in the book, and
before Hagrid's return.



4. Who are Filch's "sources"? Is it really just Umbridge?

bboy_mn:
If I recall this occured early in the book before Umbridge became High
Inquisitor, before she had been give a great deal of 'authority'.
Without the Ministry backing to intercept mail and monitor the Floo
network, there wasn't much she could do. 

However, it is perfectly reasonable she would have seen a kindrid soul
in Filch, and asked him to keep an eye out for any letters Harry might
send. At that time, she would have made up an excuse that she felt
Filch would accept. Only later in the book, when she had greater power
and knew that Filch would back her up, would she have been inclined to
tell him the truth.


5. Why wouldn't Sturgis testify? Of course he could have
said he had been acting under a curse. Was he afraid
information about the Order would get out somehow? If he
was sentenced to 6 months in Azkaban, why did we not hear
anything about his release (which should have been in
March), either as another tiny Prophet article or from
someone in the Order?

bboy_mn:
Curious, I never notice that Sturgis never re-appeared after his
sentence. Perhaps, he was fired from his job at the Ministry. It's
also possible that since he is or was under the Imperious Curse, he
may not have been able to adequately defend himself. He may not have
had a good explanation of why he was doing what he was doing, or even
been aware that he was doing it.


6. We know now that Percy's letter wasn't written under a
curse, nor was it a matter of him trying to keep under
cover as a double-agent. Why would it have mattered if
the letter arrived during breakfast? Students don't read
one another's mail. Does he think one letter from the
estranged family member can turn Ron against all his
friends and family?

bboy_mn:
Someone implied that Percy's actions and JKR's latest chat statement
shot a huge whole in the P.I.N.E. supporter's theory; Percy Is Not
Evil. I, however, and still a firm supporter of the belief that Percy
is not evil; pompous, self-important, misguided, misunderstood, yes,
but not evil.

Percy, after a rocky start, has a new job that recognises his worth,
something he has struggle to get his family to do, he came home proud
as can be after having been forgiven by the Ministry and given a job
fitting his talents, and what does his family do to him in this proud
moment? They crap all over him just like they always do. I, for one,
don't blame him for being mad.

On another point, Percy is doing the right thing. He is standing by
his duly elected (or appointed) government, he is supporting the
authorities that are empowered by their offices to guide and protect
the wizard world. If you don't think that's considered a proper and
normal course of action, just look at the massive fall out the befell
anyone who dared criticize the President after he sent troops to Iraq.
One small criticism and you were branded a trator.

I think the best explanation of Percy's actions that I've read, took
the line that Percy cut himself off from his family to prove to them
that he could get and keep his job based on his own abilities, and not
because he could offer inside information about his family or about
Dumbledore. By cutting himself off, he could prove the his father
accusations had no foundation.

Now, having said that, I will admit that Percy continues to act like a
first class pillock. But we have to understand that Harry and
Dumbledore offered no real proof that Voldemort was back. There is no
evidence, and given the nature of government to self-preservation and
preservation of the status quo, their attitude is very predictable.
Percy being loyal to the government and having no proof, simply shows
support for his elected/appointed government.

Percy is not a double agent, although from book six on he could be,
but is there really any need for him to be now that it's common
knowledge that Voldemort is indeed back? Fudge's idea that Dumbledore
is plotting against him is shot to hell, Fudge's own credibility is in
the dumper, and I suspect that Fudge is pretty powerless to affect
anything. I can't imaging that the entire wizard world won't call for
a vote of 'no confidence' and get rid of Fudge altogether. 

As far as when the letter was delivered, I think the idea was for Ron
to read it alone away from Harry's curious eyes.

I believe Percy's letter was sincere, but severly misguided.

Percy was more than willing to GET an apology; will he be just as
willing to give one?

I'm a firm believer that there will be reconciliation between Percy
and his family, I just hope we get to see it. It would be unfortunate
for the next book to casually mention in passing that Percy and his
family made up, and move on from there.

Just a few thoughts.

bboy_mn









From technomad at intergate.com  Tue Mar 16 08:04:29 2004
From: technomad at intergate.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 02:04:29 -0600
Subject: Filch and Mrs. Norris
Message-ID: <020001c40b2d$4f794d00$00570043@intergate.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93098

I was just re-re-re-reading the _His Dark Materials_ trilogy, and a thought
occurred to me:

What if Mrs. Norris has some part of Mr. Filch's soul?  Think of Lyra's bond
with her daemon, Pantalaimon---he _is_ her soul, in a visible embodiment.

That would explain how Mr. Filch knows so much about what Mrs. Norris
sees...in a way, he sees through her eyes.

--Eric, who has another explanation for Wormtail's silver hand.  I think
that V-mort knew about W-tail's love life, and decided to do him a favor by
allowing him to come into money.




From delwynmarch at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 16 08:38:05 2004
From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 08:38:05 -0000
Subject: On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
In-Reply-To: <c35a3f+7qdn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c36edd+r28a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93099



I snipped a lot, sorry :-)

Siriusly Snapey Susan wrote :

> You brought up that some would be sure to argue the Dursleys 
> should abide by the prevailing code of British society.  I 
> personally think they *should* be held to that code, yes,

Del answers :

But nobody did it. Neither Muggle nor Wizard. Nobody cared. The 
Dursleys are definitely not the only ones responsible for the way 
Harry was treated. Harry's teachers, for example, should have talked 
to the Child Welfare or whatever it's called in Britain. But they 
didn't. Why do we expect the Dursleys to obey our moral code, when 
nobody seems concerned that they don't ?


Susan wrote :

> If the Dursleys objected that much to having 
> Harry dropped on their doorstep, if they where determined that to 
> take him in would mean they would mistreat & abuse him, then why 
> did they not pass on the "offer"?  Why *not* enroll him in an 
> orphanage or turn him over to foster care? 

Del answers :

I can see at least 2 obvious reasons.

1. As others have mentioned, we don't know how things went. Maybe 
they had no choice.

2. It wasn't according to their own moral standard to give away 
their nephew. They don't care about being nice, but they want to be 
respectable. And respectable people provide for their orphan 
nephews. In fact, Harry even became a tool in constructing their 
respectability. Look at the way Aunt Marge talks to him, about how 
he should be grateful to Vernon and Petunia for taking him in. No 
doubt the Dursleys mentioned as often as they could that they took 
in and provided for their nephew, even though his parents had been 
such losers. Even saying that he has to go to St Brutus is logical 
then : no matter how much they did for him, Harry still ended up 
being a criminal, poor Dursleys, so many efforts wasted !

Del





From snapesmate at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 16 08:43:57 2004
From: snapesmate at hotmail.com (snapesmate)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 08:43:57 -0000
Subject: Remus J. Lupin
In-Reply-To: <c338ur+or68@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c36eod+aikl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93100

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" 
<justcarol67 at y...> wrote:
<snip>> 
> Anyway, (in response to the person who originally asked the 
question),
> I definitely don't think that Lupin is James. How could he be if he
> turns into a werewolf? If James were somehow still alive and a
> polyjuiced Remus died in his place in Godric's Hollow, James 
wouldn't
> be able to transform himself into the dead Remus after all these
> years. Where would he get the hair for the polyjuice potion, for 
one?
> And the skill at Transfiguration that enabled him (after years of
> study and practice) would not have enabled him to turn into another
> person. (I'm not even sure that a metamorphagus like Tonks could
> assume the exact shape, features, and voice of another real, living
> person.)
> 
> Carol

As of yet, we (the readers) have not been told how switching spells 
work.  I think many HP fans who believe in the "Remus is James" 
theory feel they may have used a switching spell as opposed to the 
polyjuice potion.  I wondered if maybe they might have switched just 
to give Remus a break from transforming that month.  That's why I was 
wondering if the full moon occurred on that Halloween.  I don't 
really think Remus is James, but it would be nice for Harry.  As far 
as Lupin being so calm and collected around the dementor...  he is a 
qualified DADA professor (the best the trio ever had, if you go by 
what they said about him), so he had better be solidly aware of how 
to deal with dementors.  Werewolf aside, Lupin's nature seems to be 
laid back and calm anyway, so I would expect him to sort of take it 
in stride.  His patronus was described as a sivery thing possibly 
because it may not have actually taken a particular shape.  We know 
many adult wizards and witches cannot do a patronus that actually 
takes shape.  Harry's ability to do it is unusual for someone his 
age, and in the book it was mentioned a few times that even adults in 
the WW cannot always manage it.  I too think it was planned for him 
to accompany Harry on the train, as he knew Sirius.  Headmaster 
Dumbledore probably felt Remus could protect Harry without making 
Harry feel "babied", although we saw how brassed off Harry was when 
he got off the train and was fussed over for passing out.  I think 
this is why he was hired as the DADA professor that year as well, 
even if he did only resign because Snape spilled the beans about him.

Lynnette, who thinks Snape IS a good guy, even if he is NOT a nice 
guy!




From delwynmarch at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 16 08:48:50 2004
From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 08:48:50 -0000
Subject: On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
In-Reply-To: <c34d98+dmhl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c36f1i+e432@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93101


Siriusly Snapey Susan said :

> Playing devil's advocate a bit here....  You have no right to 
> force moral standards on the Dursleys?  Why not?  Are there no 
> universal moral standards for treatment of others?  I find that 
> unpalatable.  Civilization depends upon certain mores and 
> legalized moralities, does it not?  

Del answers :

Which civilization ? Every society has its own moral standards, upon 
which every member of this society doesn't even necessarily agree. 
Your society and my society have different standards (I'm French, 
you must be American or British, right ? So there's at least one BIG 
recent example when our national moral codes clashed...), and maybe 
we don't even agree with all of them.
So WHICH standards should we enforce on others, and based on what ? 
Usually, it's simply the stronger that enforces its morals on the 
weaker. Like the Dursleys did on Harry. Or like Harry's wizard 
friends did on the Dursleys at the end of OoP. But because we like 
Harry and not the Dursleys, we approve only of one of those 
occasions, how fair is that ?

Del




From snapesmate at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 16 08:58:35 2004
From: snapesmate at hotmail.com (snapesmate)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 08:58:35 -0000
Subject: What's in it for Petunia?
In-Reply-To: <1079410992.27809.23.camel@ewey>
Message-ID: <c36fjr+4fjt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93102

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Sean Dwyer <ewe2 at c...> wrote:
> I'm still bugged by Petunia's insistence that Harry stays. It 
doesn't
> make sense. Dumbledore as usual does NOT explain properly why she 
would
> - he doesn't REALLY say what his 'last' was, but I seriously doubt 
an
> explaination of a magic blood pact fits the picture. Vernon did 
what we
> would expect, Petunia should have even more reason to be rid of 
Harry.
> 
> Obviously she knows more than she's saying. There is nothing 
explicit
> about her being forced by the pact to act. She's in more danger with
> Harry around than not - Dudley may well be a Squib, as some have
> suggested, but that hardly gives her a motive to protect Harry.
> 
> What did Dumbledore REALLY threaten her with?
> 
> "Sean"

Maybe Professor Dumbledore explained Harry would be the one to 
dispatch Voldemort who threatened not only the WW but the Muggle 
world as well.  After we the readers discovered the "prophesy" we now 
know that he (Professor Dumbledore) had good reason to believe 
Voldemort would eventually return "right as rain and ready to 
thunder" someday.  

Lynnette, who thinks Snape IS a good guy, even if he is NOT a nice 
guy!




From delwynmarch at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 16 09:01:54 2004
From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 09:01:54 -0000
Subject: On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
In-Reply-To: <c35att+f64l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c36fq2+n7a0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93103


I, Del, wrote :

> > In mine, they are Different. They are indeed awful by my moral 
> > standards, but I have no right to force those standards on them. 
> > They were landed with a baby whose very idea they hated, and 
> > they received no help. Not that they would have accepted it, 
> > mind you :- ), since they didn't think they needed it.

Alla answered :
 
> Just one comment. They live in Western society, so yeah, I would 
> expect them to abide by the predominant morality.

Del replies :

Predominant doesn't mean everyone goes by it. And the variants 
depending on where exactly you live (France or Britain, countryside 
or downtown London or suburbs full of immigrants, etc...), your 
income, your traditions, your education, and so on, are innumerable !

Alla said :
 
> Actually, no scratch that. :o) As long as they do not act on 
> their "moral standards", I would let them be, but as soon as they 
> start hurting other people (Harry in this situation), I have no 
> problem forcing the general norms of behaviour (like abuse is not 
> allowed)on them. After all, we don't allow people, who feel it is 
> OK to commit a crime a free ride.

Del answers :

Aha ! I completely agree with you, and I repeat what I said in 
another post : WHY didn't anyone do anything to stop their abusing 
Harry ? Harry was going to school with unfitting clothes and broken 
glasses, he was being chased and bullied by Dudley and his gang 
right in the school and in the street, he must have acted in social 
situations in a way that screamed "abused kid", he was left in a 
tree for *hours* with a dog barking at him, etc... And yet we are 
never told that anyone reported anything, that the social services 
came to visit, that any teacher had a chat with the Dursleys, that 
Dumbledore or anyone else came to visit them and check on Harry 
(even though we know the WW had a way of knowing anything and 
everything they needed to about Harry, through Mrs Figg), or 
*anything* !!

The Dursleys don't share our moral standards to start with, but 
noone in authority tried to enforce it on them either. Nobody 
actually even tried to enforce the LAW, let alone any moral code, on 
them...

Del




From Elvishooked at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 16 09:31:04 2004
From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 09:31:04 -0000
Subject: Remus J. Lupin
In-Reply-To: <c36eod+aikl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c36hgo+10qot@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93104

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snapesmate" <snapesmate at h...> 
wrote:

Big snip...

>>>I think 
this is why he was hired as the DADA professor that year as well, 
even if he did only resign because Snape spilled the beans about him.
Lynnette, who thinks Snape IS a good guy, even if he is NOT a nice 
guy!<<<

I guess Remus would have resigned even if Snape had NOT spilled the 
beans. Remus was horrified that something could happen again while 
being at Hogwarts as a teacher that might bring him to cause danger 
or put lives at risk.
That Snape talked and told his House of Remus' true identity was not 
the reason Remus decided to leave. Just my oppinion.
Inge




From delwynmarch at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 16 09:34:47 2004
From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 09:34:47 -0000
Subject: On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
In-Reply-To: <c365lg+ht8v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c36hnn+nuun@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93105


Suehpfan said :

> First off I said *nothing* about bonding.  I don't really care 
> whether Petunia bonded to Harry or not.

Del answers :

I do, because I know from personal experience how hard it is to take 
care of a baby you don't feel any love for.
Especially since Petunia already had her own baby to take care of. 
Taking care of twins is hard enough when they are your own and you 
love them. But if you feel that one of them is a parasite that is 
preventing you from taking care of your "real" baby, then I don't 
see how you can be expected to give love to that stranger. It's next 
to impossible.


Sue said :

> I also said it was the most painful for *me*, very personal, very 
> specific.

Del answers :

I'm sorry, really I am. I have issues too, but unfortunately, they 
are more on Petunia's side.

Sue said :

> It is of the utmost depravity in any culture, including most 
> animal cultures (by that I mean monkey, wolf, etc.) to not care 
> for the young.

Del answers :

Depravity can be fostered by many things, including poverty of 
means, or in this case, poverty of affection. We know Petunia had 
her own problems with her parents, it is very possible she didn't 
feel loved as a kid, or not as loved as Lily at least. So maybe she 
grew up thinking that some kids are loved more than others, and 
that's normal. Then she wouldn't have any problem reproducing that 
behaviour with Dudley and Harry. In fact, she would probably find it 
quite satisfying to take out her revenge on Lily this way, to "make 
things even". As for Vernon, we don't know anything about his 
childhood, so we can't judge him.

Sue said :

> Most of us do respond to an infant and small child simply because 
> we are genetically programmed to do so, propagation of the species 
> and all that.

Del answers :

Most of us respond to a baby on the spur of the moment, yes. But how 
many of us would be willing to take a strange baby in our home and 
take care of him as our child ? Not so many, I'm sure.

Sue said :

> Petunia *agreed* to take Harry.  There must have been a way 
> for her to tell DD to take the bundle put it somewhere else. No 
> thank you.  We have no idea what kind of agreement was made or 
> whether there was compensation for Harry's care.  I am of the 
> opinion that there was.

Del answers :

Petunia *screamed* when she found Harry on her doorstep. I wouldn't 
call that an agreement. And even if she did agree later, that 
doesn't mean she realised then what she was getting herself in. 
Considering her emotional luggage concerning Harry's parents, I'd 
say she bit more than she could chew, but didn't realise it then.

Sue said :

> As far as forcing standards on other people, we all have a 
> responsibility to be sure our young are cared for.  As a teacher, 
> I was *required* to do so by the state in which I was credentialed 
> or risk prosecution for negligence myself.  I am all for "to each 
> his own" unless there is someone who cannot protect themselves, 
> then "it takes a village" IMHO.

Del answers :

I agree completely ! Go tell that to Harry's teachers and 
neighbours, though, because they don't seem to agree with us...

Sue said :
 
> On the point of DD and his decision to leave Harry with the 
> Dursley's, I believe he trusted Petunia to care for her nephew 
> with honor, she did have a choice and she agreed to take him.  I 
> think it was probably only after the charm to protect him was cast 
> DD realized how horrible Harry's life was going to be.  It was 
> then a choice between two evils and DD chose the one that was most 
> likely to keep Harry alive and humble so he could rise to the 
> challenges ahead.

Del answers :

DD had a century of experience behind him. Even McG recognised that 
the Dursleys couldn't be an adequate foster family for Harry. DD 
should have known right away that this wouldn't work.
Petunia and Vernon were young parents, probably no more than 30 or 
so, and they had very little time and background to make their 
decision.
If anyone is to blame that the whole thing didn't work out all 
right, it's DD. He put the Dursleys in a fix he should have known 
they couldn't handle, and never followed up on the whole matter, 
even when it turned nasty. That was unfair to everyone involved, 
Harry as well as the Dursleys.


Sue said :
 
> You are absolutely right to say that they would have to realize 
> the "wrongness" of their behavior.  If you would be disappointed, 
> I would be thrilled.  It is so much easier for people who have 
> suffered abuse to heal when the people who did the abusing 
> acknowledge the error of their ways.  I wish for Harry some path 
> through the wilderness for at least part of what he has suffered.

Del answers :

I would be disappointed because of the message it would send out to 
the kids out there, that people who don't think like us *must* 
change in the end. It simply doesn't promote tolerance.

Sue said :

> I suspect we will have to agree to disagree on the Dursleys.  
> Everyone is redeemable (even Uncle Vernon :P), I hope they do 
> redeem themselves and do something right for once.

Del answers :

One thing I've learned on this list is to agree to disagree :-) But 
I have to point out that the Dursleys already did something right : 
they took Harry in. For all we know, they might already have saved 
his life by doing so.

Sue said :

> As far as I'm concerned they have no "moral code" they have a 
> conformist code but there is nothing moral about it.

Del asnwers :

Any code that consistently guides your actions is your moral code. 
It's just a matter of words.

Del




From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Tue Mar 16 09:35:13 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 16 Mar 2004 10:35:13 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How can LV win the war in three weeks
Message-ID: <20040316093513.E866C2D2239@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 93106

> Neri:
> Carol, just for the record, I'm quite certain that nothing like my 
> evil plan to take over the WW with a self-replicating "Imperius 
> virus" will actually happen in Book 6 or 7. JKR just doesn't think in 
> such terms, and consequently LV doesn't either. I devised this plan 
> as a purely hypothetical exercise, just for fun (I know, some 
> people's idea of fun is rather twisted:-)). Saying that, it still 
> seems to me that the idea is sound. The principle works quite well in 
> the real world (unfortunately). [snip]

Viridis:
I like your clean logic employed in the plan. However I see wrong assumption, which constitute a major flaw.  
Moody said it needs a powerful wizard to execute the Unforgivables; we saw Harry shaking off Imperio and than winning the duel with Voldie by the power of the will. He's certainly strong willed person, for which examples can be found throghout the books. 
In OotP, especially in MoM battle, we have finally seen the conection between psyche and the magic - which is very typical for general understanding of magic as skill(ability)+will (in folklore, legends and fantasy along). So the  person has possibilties for executing these kinds of magic (s)he as also psychic tendency for: sadists are great with Cruciatus. 
Weak willed person are susceptible to Imperio, no matter how big will be their other magical abilities are. And weak-willed will not be good at Imperio-ing other, because it means imposing their will on others. So the "virus" can not replicate itself - or will replicate into weaker and weaker form. So I hope WW will be saved from pandemy.

> In general, one of the reasons I like the Potterverse is because I 
> think the rules of magic, as JKR describes them, lend themselves 
> beautifully to ideas from modern biology and computer science. 

Well, yes, as much as I like JKR's work, she is not a world-creator. She basically substituted "technology and science" with "magic". So the similarites are not surprising. She did it with great grace, to be sure.

Cheers, Viridis
________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!



From carolynwhite2 at aol.com  Tue Mar 16 09:42:25 2004
From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 09:42:25 -0000
Subject: On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
In-Reply-To: <c358fh+jpt4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c36i61+7h98@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93107

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
> What reason did DD give to Minerva that night in Privet Drive? He 
> didn't want Harry growing up spoilt and thinking he was somebody
> special. What better place to avoid that than with kindly, 
solicitous Uncle Vernon. 

Carolyn:
After we find out about how arrogant James and Sirius were at school, 
and their evidently well-off and privileged backgrounds, I have often 
wondered whether another factor for DD was to ensure Harry didn't get 
that kind of upbringing. There was the issue of the blood protection 
for Harry, of course, but the kind of life he was going to get at the 
Dursleys may actually have appeared to be another 'good thing' in 
DD's judgement. 

Perhaps he had seen too many parallels in the behaviour of young 
James and young Lucius Malfoy, albeit they were on different sides. 
Draco certainly struts his stuff in just the way Harry might have 
done if he had been brought up in a mansion somewhere, complete with 
magic scar and interesting hero-history.

DD's a pretty cold fish, and the WW is a rough place at the best of 
times, with people hexing each other at the slightest provocation 
(look at the queues at St Mungo's on Christmas Day, or the way the 
kids hex Malfoy & co on the train - no one acts particularly 
surprised or calls in the aurors or hit-wizards). I am not sure he 
would be bothered that Dudders might beat up Harry - Harry's magical 
after all, and can't really be harmed. 

The psychological damage to Harry of being unloved is another matter, 
but I don't think DD would have given it great weight. By the end of 
OOP he maybe has begun to have more of an insight here, because of 
his own care for Harry which has grown up since the boy arrived at 
Hogwarts, but I personally was pretty unmoved by his tears when he 
talked to Harry after Sirius's death. They struck me as more self-
pitying than produced by Harry's suffering.





From MadameSSnape at aol.com  Tue Mar 16 09:57:09 2004
From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 04:57:09 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron to follow Voldemort?
Message-ID: <cf.7a8697b.2d882975@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93108

In a message dated 3/15/2004 11:31:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
jujupoet29 at hotmail.com writes:
8. The Willow is associated with grief and death
Here is the most important part of the whole analysis.  I found it 
particularly interesting that it was Sirius Black who pulled Ron 
into the Whomping Willow - Sirius Black who takes on the form of a 
big black dog (grim?) and later dies in OoTP. The Willow is commonly 
planted in cemeteries around Britain, particularly those near water. 
The imagery here is quite startling ? Sirius Black (the dead man/ 
grim) pulling Ron into the `cemetery'?
=================
Sherrie here:

Adding another layer: particularly in Victorian times, the willow was 
specifically associated with the death of a young unmarried person.  If not planted, 
it might be carved on the headstone of the deceased.  

Sherrie
(also convinced that Ron is headed for Tir-Nan-Og)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Tue Mar 16 09:58:52 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 09:58:52 -0000
Subject: Keeping the wolf from the door
In-Reply-To: <c35qqt+1dod@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c36j4s+tuoq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93109

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arielock2001" <arielock at a...> wrote:
> 
> Also Kneasy, I am the person who asked JKR if we should 
> believe what the sorting hat says.  I still wonder if the sorting hat
> just places people randomly unless they have an opinion.  
> Please see message 87765.
> 

Splendid question!
And an  absolutely fascinating answer given in reply.

"Can we believe everything the Sorting Hat says?"
"The Sorting Hat is certainly sincere."

Wonderful! A deliberately obtuse non-answer.
If I can find an excuse  to shove all this work  aside for an hour
or two, I'll certainly try to pick the bones out of  that one.

Kneasy




From jujupoet29 at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 16 10:09:47 2004
From: jujupoet29 at hotmail.com (sienna291973)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 10:09:47 -0000
Subject: Ron to follow Voldemort?
In-Reply-To: <cf.7a8697b.2d882975@aol.com>
Message-ID: <c36jpb+4p9v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93110

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, MadameSSnape at a... wrote:
> Adding another layer: particularly in Victorian times, the willow 
was 
> specifically associated with the death of a young unmarried 
person.  If not planted, 
> it might be carved on the headstone of the deceased.  
> 
> Sherrie
> (also convinced that Ron is headed for Tir-Nan-Og)

------------------------

Eep! It just gets more and more sinister!  I think I may just go and 
analyse all the Ron moments for more clues.  Does anyone know 
whether an extensive analysis of this has already been done?

Sienna





From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 16 10:27:51 2004
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 10:27:51 -0000
Subject: On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
In-Reply-To: <c358fh+jpt4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c36kr7+ff4r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93111

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
<snip>
> 
> If anyone's morals are  at fault it's DD's. He *knew* how the 
Dursleys
> felt about the Magical World, James and Lily and  the treatment
> that would be meted out to Harry and did bugger all about it; and if
> he didn't know beforehand, he should damn well have known from 
> Mrs Figg in a very few years. Did he do anything? No. 
<snip> 
> The Dursleys acted in an entirely predictable fashion - one that I
> suspect DD anticipated. How else could he be sure  that Harry
> would leap at the chance to go to Hogwarts? But if Harry was
> unhappy, then how much easier does it become to slot him into
> his pre-ordained role in DD's plan?  
> 
> But of course morality has  nothing to do with the case, that's all
> eyewash; it's about pragmatism. And how often that beats morality
> to the winning post! As a glaring example (and this will raise 
blood-pressure in more than a few) it is morally inconsistent to 
support the
> death penalty and oppose abortion - and vice versa. To be for both 
> or against both can be classed as a moral stance, but a split vote 
>is not. Yet how many do so and try to claim the moral high ground?

The fact that people may have contradictory opinions in moral matters 
isn't necessarily due to pragmatic considerations. In fact, in your 
example, I fail to see where pragmatism enters at all. I am pro 
choice and against the death penalty - but since neither are 
personally relevant for me (thank God!), my opinions on these issues 
have nothing to do with pragmatism. 

Moral issues are often complex. Let's take abortion, for instance. 
You compare it to the death penalty, I assume, because of the single 
similarity between them, which is that it is the voluntary 
termination of a life. But I support the one and oppose the other, 
because of the differences between them, especially that in abortion, 
there is more than one life involved.  

In the same way, I think you are reducing DD's decision regarding 
Harry's upbringing to a single dimension. Your argument is, the 
Dursleys are a horrible foster family, DD knew this, therefore DD was 
morally wrong to place Harry with them. But you fail to take into 
account other circumstances, primarily that Harry's safety could be 
guarranteed *only* if he were accepted by Petunia. DD had to *weigh* 
the different considerations to arrive at the best solution. And 
best, in this case as in RL, is the least worse. But that's what 
morality *is* - considering, for each case, the various aspects of 
it, and arriving at the most moral decision. 


Naama




From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Tue Mar 16 10:30:57 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 16 Mar 2004 11:30:57 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
Message-ID: <20040316103057.66F952D21F6@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 93112

This is a combination of several posts ? I hope into some logical whole.

Del answers :

>I quite disagree with you. I know our western culture has this idea 
>that anyone seeing a baby in need will automatically take care of it 
>and feel attached to it. But that's simply not true.

Side note: this idea is not specific to Western culture. The most quoted passage from Mengzi (Mencius; Chinese confucian philosopher, 3rd cent. BC) says that every bystander will run to help the child who is about to fall into the well. He used it to prove inborn goodness of the human being. As for the small babies, we have in-built biological mechanisms, which make us help them and think them ?cute?. Of course, those mechanisms sometimes don?t work, as you rightly pointed out. (personally I think small babies are bleh)

Del:

>Predominant doesn't mean everyone goes by it. And the variants 
>depending on where exactly you live (France or Britain, countryside 
>or downtown London or suburbs full of immigrants, etc...), your 
>income, your traditions, your education, and so on, are innumerable !

You?re being right about pointing out the Dursleys? POV and their variation o the moral code. We shouldn?t loose those issues from sight. But as the differences in the moral code of different European societies go, they?re relatively small. If we judge Durslys? by their social group/class standards, I?m pretty sure they?ll fail.

Susan:
>As I stated in my original post, 
>if they were frightened of DD--if they feared he was watching them 
>closely & evaluating their "parenting" skills--they'd never have 
>treated Harry as they did.  

I think there is an explanation for it. They could have taken Harry in, being afraid of DD and scandal. Harry doesn?t show the symptoms of early abuse; he also doesn?t show the symptoms of ?emotional deficiency?, characteristic for children from crowded orphanages and so on. If the child is depraved of human contact and emotional bond in very early years, it usually ends up with serious deficiencies, including mental ones ? simply, such children are often retarded. There is no such case with Harry. So I guess he was rather well taken care of, when he was small, I mean really small 1-4 years old. Now, over the years, with no signal from DD, Dursleys may gradually forget the original warning, ?hope? (subconsciously) they?ll be forgotten. At the same time, as Harry grew, his abilities started to manifest, so they became more and more irritating. He was relegated to the cupboard (at the age of four?) and pressure was put on him, so his ?weirdness? may disappear, effectively negating any threat, which could still be lurking in the Dursleys? memory. Since nobody has contacted them for so long, they could even believed they succeeded, until the blasted letters came ? which also explains to the extent their hysterical reaction to them.

Which leads me to: 

Del answers :

>Aha ! I completely agree with you, and I repeat what I said in 
>another post : WHY didn't anyone do anything to stop their abusing 
>Harry ? Harry was going to school with unfitting clothes and broken 
>glasses, he was being chased and bullied by Dudley and his gang 
>right in the school and in the street, he must have acted in social 
>situations in a way that screamed "abused kid"

Well, probably he did not. He was just a calm kid. As I stated earlier (long time ago), he was mainly abused psychically less physically. Durseys are ?respectable? so I can bet Harry didn?t come to school with cigarette or iron burnt marks or his X-ray hasn?t showed multiple bone breakages. These are the signs of abused child which will (but also not always, sadly) make the authorities react. NOTE: I am not saying Harry was not abused. I?m just pointing the extent of the abuse school authorities are ?used to?. They?ll be also more alert among slum-kids than in such community as Little Whinging. Probably some teachers made some remarks and were answered that Harry is ?ungrateful?, he ?doesn?t care?, that he breaks his glasses whenever they buy him new ones etc. Also he did well in school, so teachers were not motivated to probe into his case - especially when they had to deal with Vernon, who may be local version of Malfoy, Respectable Director willing to Help School. 
Sad, but rather probable, I?m afraid. I think the reality of th whole situation makes JKR feel so bad about Vernon.

Cheers, Viridis

________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!



From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Tue Mar 16 10:47:16 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 16 Mar 2004 11:47:16 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Keeping the wolf from the door
Message-ID: <20040316104716.132AF2D2235@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 93113

Kneasy
> 3. Why don't  Dementors affect him?
> This is the  most intriguing aspect of the Hogwarts Express episode in 
> PoA. He doesn't  produce a Patronus to drive them off immediately - he 
> *talks* to the damn thing, quite calmly! What makes him think Dementors 
> listen to  instructions from anyone they meet? Has he had dealings with 
> them before?

This is an intriguing scene, but it doesn't show Dementor doesn't affect him. For fighting an for talking one doesn't need happiness. The scene may just show that yes, he dealt with Dementors before; and also that he has the will and spine of steel under his soft demeanor. He can talk calmly *despite* being affected, but because he is not affected.
The shapelesness of his patronus is not an issue here, IMHO. First, it was described from kids' POV - and they were was not in shape to clearly describe anything. Second he muttered the spell, not putting maximum effort in it My theory is, weak patronus drives Dementors away, strong one destroys them. He didn't want to destroy Hogwarts' guardian. 

Cheers, Viridis
________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!



From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 16 10:53:47 2004
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 10:53:47 -0000
Subject: On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
In-Reply-To: <c36f1i+e432@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c36mbr+5jva@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93114

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Doriane" <delwynmarch at y...> 
wrote:
> Del answers :
> 
> Which civilization ? Every society has its own moral standards, 
upon 
> which every member of this society doesn't even necessarily agree. 
> Your society and my society have different standards (I'm French, 
> you must be American or British, right ? So there's at least one 
BIG 
> recent example when our national moral codes clashed...), and maybe 
> we don't even agree with all of them.
> So WHICH standards should we enforce on others, and based on what ? 
> Usually, it's simply the stronger that enforces its morals on the 
> weaker. Like the Dursleys did on Harry. Or like Harry's wizard 
> friends did on the Dursleys at the end of OoP. But because we like 
> Harry and not the Dursleys, we approve only of one of those 
> occasions, how fair is that ?
> 

Fair? Hmmm.. 

You say, it is unfair to approve the enforcing of one moral standard 
but disapprove the enforcing of a different moral standard. But that 
is a moral stance in itself. It is part of *your* moral code, is it 
not? Only, if it is unfair to enforce one moral standard over 
another, then it must also be unfair to enforce *your* moral standard 
over a moral standard that states that it *is* fair to enforce it's 
standards. In other words, if "good" and "bad" for you have meaning 
only within the local perimeter of a certain system of morality, then 
you can't apply those terms to systems of morality as a whole. Once 
you hold to a relativist moral stance, you lose the ability to make 
any moral judgments without immediately falling into self 
contradiction. 



Naama






From delwynmarch at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 16 11:58:36 2004
From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 11:58:36 -0000
Subject: Different moral standards (was : On the other hand)
In-Reply-To: <c343go+gopn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c36q5c+6n30@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93115


I wrote a long answer to Naama's post, but after re-reading it, I 
realised it was pretty much off-topic (I mention the Dursleys only 
once in it, I think :-)

So I sent my answer to Naama only. Anybody who wants to have it too 
can ask for it.

My bottom line is : I don't like the Dursleys, but it's too easy to 
just call them Bad. Things are way more complex than that.

Del




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue Mar 16 12:20:33 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 12:20:33 -0000
Subject: Confusing and Befuddlement Draughts
In-Reply-To: <c35v72+10ipp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c36reh+t065@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93116

Potioncat wrote: 
> > If JKR was having a character poisoned, why would she kill him in 
> > some other way before the poisoning was discovered?  As I was 
typing 
> > that sentence, I swear, a voice in the back of  my head said: To 
set 
> > us up for someone being poisoned in the next book! 
> 
Jenjar wrote: 
> Interesting points potioncat.  First let me clarify, I don't think 
> the draught or poison Kreacher may have given Sirius would have 
> killed him.  As Harry's textbook states, confusing and bufuddlement 
> draughts were used to produce hot-headedness and recklessness.  
> 
> If this is what happened JKR could have had many, many reasons for 
> doing it.  There are 2 possibilities that stick out to me:
> 
> 1) If Sirius had been more himself and not unusually hot-headed or 
> reckless, he might not have died.  
> 
> 2) As things are now, Dumbledore is blaming himself for Sirus' 
death -
>  he thinks he misjudged Sirius' ability to handle being caged up, 
> which led to Sirius' reckless actions.  How will his guilty 
feelings 
> affect his future decisions and actions? 
> 


Potioncat:
Good points! DD certainly felt he had made several mistakes this time.

I didnt' expect the poison to kill Sirius either, I was just 
surprised that he died and we never discovered it. (Assuming we're 
correct about the poison.) But unless someone is being poisoned in 6 
or 7 the only purpose of discovering it now would be to heap more 
guilt on Sirius' friends.  Harry particularly will think he would 
have picked up on it if he'd done better in potions.

So perhaps we should watch out for someone else to act strange.

Potioncat 




From delwynmarch at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 16 12:37:12 2004
From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 12:37:12 -0000
Subject: Different moral standards (was : On the other hand)
In-Reply-To: <c358bt+kmhp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c36sdo+ffn3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93117


Geoff said :

> As a Christian, I believe that there are moral absolutes

Del replies :

I'm a Christian too, but not everyone is. And even as fellow 
Christians, it is possible we don't have exactly the same moral 
absolutes.

Geoff said :

> Jesus was asked on one occasion about the great commandments and 
> he distilled them into two. (...) the second is to love your 
> neighbour as yourself.
>
> Some readers will doubtless disagree with me over the first but 
> the second is in many ways the mortar of society and we can only 
> get this one to work if we agree on the fundamental structure of 
> society.

Del replies :

I must respectfully disagree. I just have to look around me to see 
that most people, Christian or not, don't care about loving their 
neighbours. They want to be loved, but they don't care about loving. 
Big difference. It's always "me first". Just like the Dursleys. The 
only true mortar of society that I can see, so far, is that everyone 
is looking for their own fulfillment, in their own way. So everyone 
tries to compromise to get their way as much as possible : I'll give 
you this if you let me do that. That's not love, that's greed.

Moreover, as far as we know, the Dursleys are not Christians. Or at 
least, we don't see them practicing any kind of Christian faith. So 
they can't be judged by Christian standards.

Geoff said :

> Some of your aspects of society will differ but these are 
> superficial ones.
> The bedrock of life, the moral absolutes - not killing, not lying, 
> honouring the family etc. - are the same in Harry's Wizarding 
> world as they are in our world; if not, then the 11th Septembers 
> and Madrids of this world become just part of a different moral 
> code......

Del replies :

I'm sorry Geoff, but that's EXACTLY what they are : acts of war, 
from people who try to impose their own ideology by force. Just like 
Christian missionaries and leaders did a few centuries ago...
Just out of curiosity : what do *you* think they are ?

The moral absolutes aren't absolute at all. I read recently a book 
entitled "Burnt alive". The author, a Jordanian woman, explains that 
20 years ago, she was burnt alive by her brother, on her parents' 
orders, because she was pregnant and unmarried. It was common 
practice, and it was dictated by honour and tradition. All the 
village knew about it, and approved of it. And when she unexpectedly 
ended up in hospital, she was left to die on her bed, without any 
treatment, because the personnel understood the situation and knew 
there was no point trying to save her : her family would only try 
and kill her again. It took a foreigner to save her, by promising to 
take her away *for ever* : that would be as good as dead for her 
family, the honour would be safe. But the most impressive thing for 
me, is that that woman doesn't condemn her family : even now, she 
understands why they did that. At the time, she even felt it was 
normal : she was just unlucky that it should happen to her.
Moral absolutes simply don't exist in our world. They never did, 
they never will. God's absolute Truth exists, yes, but most of 
humanity doesn't believe it.
The Dursleys do NOT believe in "love thy (nephew) as thy (son)", it 
is their choice, it is their right. And it is our duty to make sure 
that abuse is made illegal, and then to enforce that law.

Geoff said :

> Yes, but we are human beings, with consciences and self-awareness -
> dare I say made in the image of God - and not animals acting by 
> instinct.

Del answers :

I've read some articles on human biology that say exactly the 
opposite. Some scientists truly seem to believe that *everything* in 
human behaviour, including love and compassion, can be explained by 
either biology or social strategy.

Geoff said :

> I doubt if your new lion senses any moral comeback when he 
> removes the various offspring. The Dursleys, by the way in which 
> they treat Harry, not only abuse him but belittle themselves in 
> reducing their humanity.

Del answers :

Yes, but they don't care. They don't have any concept of "bettering" 
themselves, of living up to a moral ideal. They have a completely 
materialistic view : a good appearance, a good reputation, a holiday 
house in Majorca. They want to impress others and themselves. They 
are looking for social fulfillment, not love or emotional or 
spiritual fulfillment, and they wouldn't think of providing those 
either.


Del





From alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Mar 16 13:02:33 2004
From: alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk (alshainofthenorth)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 13:02:33 -0000
Subject: Confusing and Befuddlement Draughts
In-Reply-To: <c36reh+t065@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c36tt9+69k8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93118

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at m...> 
wrote:
> Potioncat wrote: 
> > > If JKR was having a character poisoned, why would she kill him 
in 
> > > some other way before the poisoning was discovered?  As I was 
> typing 
> > > that sentence, I swear, a voice in the back of  my head said: 
To 
> set 
> > > us up for someone being poisoned in the next book! 
> > 
> Jenjar wrote: 
> > Interesting points potioncat.  First let me clarify, I don't 
think 
> > the draught or poison Kreacher may have given Sirius would have 
> > killed him.  As Harry's textbook states, confusing and 
bufuddlement 
> > draughts were used to produce hot-headedness and recklessness.  
> > 
> > If this is what happened JKR could have had many, many reasons 
for 
> > doing it.  There are 2 possibilities that stick out to me:
> > 
> > 1) If Sirius had been more himself and not unusually hot-headed 
or 
> > reckless, he might not have died.  
> > 
> > 2) As things are now, Dumbledore is blaming himself for Sirus' 
> death -
> >  he thinks he misjudged Sirius' ability to handle being caged up, 
> > which led to Sirius' reckless actions.  How will his guilty 
> feelings 
> > affect his future decisions and actions? 
> > 
> 
> 
> Potioncat:
> Good points! DD certainly felt he had made several mistakes this 
time.
> 
> I didnt' expect the poison to kill Sirius either, I was just 
> surprised that he died and we never discovered it. (Assuming we're 
> correct about the poison.) But unless someone is being poisoned in 
6 
> or 7 the only purpose of discovering it now would be to heap more 
> guilt on Sirius' friends.  Harry particularly will think he would 
> have picked up on it if he'd done better in potions.
> 
> So perhaps we should watch out for someone else to act strange.
> 
> Potioncat

Alshain:
I disagree with the theory that Kreacher is slipping Sirius 
Befuddlement Draughts. He'd probably want to, but I don't think he's 
able to. Much as Kreacher hates it, Sirius is his master. He's still 
bound in servitude to the Black family, and I think the magic that 
binds house-elves has to prevent house-elves from causing harm to the 
families they serve in the same way as Dobby was prevented from 
telling the Malfoys' secrets. (House-elves and free will is one of 
those themes I wish JKR could write more about.) 

So in short, I don't think Sirius's hotheadedness is magically 
induced, just plain frustration with a horrible situation he can't 
escape. Harry's thoughts when taken in context are the kind of 
freewheeling associations your brain comes up with before falling 
asleep. 

Alshain




From delwynmarch at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 16 13:16:41 2004
From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 13:16:41 -0000
Subject: On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
In-Reply-To: <c36mbr+5jva@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c36unp+akvp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93119

Naama said :

> You say, it is unfair to approve the enforcing of one moral 
> standard but disapprove the enforcing of a different moral 
> standard. But that is a moral stance in itself. It is part of 
> *your* moral code, is it not? Only, if it is unfair to enforce one 
> moral standard over another, then it must also be unfair to 
> enforce *your* moral standard over a moral standard that states 
> that it *is* fair to enforce it's standards. In other words, 
> if "good" and "bad" for you have meaning only within the local 
> perimeter of a certain system of morality, then you can't apply 
> those terms to systems of morality as a whole. Once you hold to a 
> relativist moral stance, you lose the ability to make any moral 
> judgments without immediately falling into self contradiction. 

Del replies :

Oooh :-) ! I just *love* a little paradox once in a while :-) And 
yes I was aware of this one. That's why in my moral code, I should 
never force my standards on anyone else. I don't always succeed, but 
that's part of being human, right ;-) ?

Note : "not force" doesn't mean "not explain", "not show" or "not 
share". I do believe in showing my ways to others, but then they are 
free to do as they want. Even if what they want is to eliminate me 
or my beliefs !

Del




From severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Mar 16 13:22:18 2004
From: severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk (severelysigune)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 13:22:18 -0000
Subject: And then there were none.
In-Reply-To: <c367eu+2v2o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c36v2a+ecq3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93120

Carol:
<< I agree about Lupin and the silver hand, but please don't add 
Snape to the kill list! I don't think he'll be headmaster (he'll only 
be about 39 at the end of the series), but I can see him as DADA 
instructor, head of Slytherin (still), and assistant headmaster to 
McGonagall, the new headmistress.>>

Greatelderone: 
<< I don't think McGonagall is going to live long enough to become  
headmaster herself. There's a few references in ootp about her buying 
the farm. And I doubt Snape is ever going to become the DADA 
teacher.>>

Carol wrote:
<< Just not dead or a traitor to Dumbledore. I hate to ask this 
question since I'm not sure I want to know the answer, but why did 
you add Snape to the list?>>

Greatelderone replied:
<< Because of the six major representatives of Lily and James's 
generation three are dead(Sirius, Lily and James) and two are 
probably going to end up dead(Remus and Pettigrew) so with the whole  
law of averages and everything I think it's probable that Severeus 
dies and joins them.>>

Sigune here:
My dear Greatelderone, would you mind telling me who, in your 
opinion, will be LEFT at the end of Book 7? I do hope you would 
allow /someone/ to survive.

And please let it be Snape after all :).

I know, I know, do I really have to return from lurkdom to tell you 
all once again that the LAST thing I want is for Snape to die? Well, 
yes - the matter is too close to my heart not to vent my opinion.

I guess I am pretty biased, but I think it would not be a good move 
of JKR's to have Snape killed. I mean, to what purpose would that be? 
What plot line would it serve? She would take out one of the most 
complex characters she has created (and, to my mind, the single most 
interesting one so far).
I took part in a survey asking people why they got hooked on the HP 
series in the first place and what they liked and disliked about it, 
and thinking these things over I concluded that my greatest dislike 
has to do with the characterisation of the baddies. Take Draco Malfoy 
for example: I think he's a cardboard character. His father has the 
advantage of having a certain style, but he is a Death Eater, a 
racist, an opportunist, he treats his House Elf badly, etc etc - like 
his son, he is all bad. Take Voldemort: same thing. And Bellatrix. 
And Macnair. It is of course possible that they will gain some depth 
in the next two books, but so far I have found them rather, well, 
simple. [ducks in expectation of attacks from all sides]

Now Snape - well, he is at least someone subtle. He needs 
interpreting. Look at all our discussions - we cannot even agree 
whose side he is on (except for the fact that we all seem to think he 
is at least on his own side). So two developments would really 
disappoint me: 1) Snape turning out to be on LV's side, and 2) Snape 
dying (I SO agree with Carol there). The first I really don't want to 
happen because it would suggest that a person's looks tell all about 
their nature. Snape is the very picture of an evil wizard, so he 
should /not/ turn out to be one - at least for me. The second I don't 
want to happen because I think there would be a wonderful irony in 
precisely Snape's survival. He is nasty, and JKR clearly did not 
intend him to be likeable (I think it so funny that she always seems 
so surprised at the number of Snape fans) - so, against the grain, I 
want him to live and, if possible, realise himself and be successful 
in whatever it is he will undertake after Voldie's defeat.
And though I admit being biased by my liking of Snape, I want to add 
that my other favourite is Dumbledore, and that I fully expect HIM to 
die, and am ready to accept that, even if it would pain me.

Yours severely,

Sigune





From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net  Tue Mar 16 13:58:42 2004
From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Campbell, Anne-TMC-Rcvg)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 07:58:42 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Confusing and Befuddlement Draughts
Message-ID: <F5E7816227E4C74AB163DBAC938F5DBE0EB090@tenhdcthemx01.tenethealth.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 93121

Alshain:
I disagree with the theory that Kreacher is slipping Sirius 
Befuddlement Draughts. 
<<<<Snipping about house-elves and why they wouldn't/cannot 'poison' their own families, no matter how they may loathe them (Heck, don't you think Dobby would have tried something similar on Malfoy if he could have?)....>>>>
So in short, I don't think Sirius's hotheadedness is magically 
induced, just plain frustration with a horrible situation he can't 
escape. Harry's thoughts when taken in context are the kind of 
freewheeling associations your brain comes up with before falling 
asleep. 

{Anne}
I have to agree with Alshain here. We tend to forget that Sirius had a few very predominant traits (ones that proved out in the past as well as the present--and I doubt he was being 'poisoned' at school)--
1) He's hotheaded (Remember him slashing open the Fat Lady's painting when she wouldn't let him into Gryffindor Tower?--That's an action of a violent, angry man. Not very wise, either.)
2) He's a man of action as opposed to words (going after Pettigrew by himself after the Potters are killed, breaking into Hogwarts to get to Harry (and thus making himself to look the criminal he was being presented as in the papers), Ready to kill Pettigrew at the slightest provocation once they cornered the little rat in the shack).
3) He is aggressive, to the point of bordering on being a bully sometimes (Going after Sev in the Pensieve scene without provocation, unless, of course, you count Severus breathing the same air as him 'provocation', Almost killing Pettigrew anyway until Harry begs him not to, Treating Kreacher as less than a being in his own right (yes, Kreacher IS a 'monster' in and of himself, but some of that is no doubt because of how Sirius treated him, and doesn't really make it 'right' for Sirius to treat him the way he does...). Sorry, guys, Sirius always was a bully--he might have been a selective one, but he still was one, and it wasn't all because he got locked away in Azkaban. To be honest, I think Azkaban took some of the edge of that off...at least until he started feeling healthier and then his original nature started asserting itself once more (which is why he seems so...off. We just think he is because we hadn't seen the 'real' Sirius before then).
4) He usually does NOT listen to common sense unless Dumbledore is presenting it, and even then, he chafes at the bit, wanting to do whatever it is he wanted to do...you can even say he sulks about it. As an adult, he learned just enough self-restraint to actually listen to Dumbly (but note he gets into it with everyone else about his and/or Harry's safety, no matter if it's Molly, Lupin, or Snape), and you can bet he's still trying to work things out in his head to try and get out to _do_ something without getting caught anyway ('I can go to the train station as Snuffles to see Harry off. No one will know....'). *coughs* Uh, yeah...right, Sirius...I'm sure there's spells that will reveal you...and who is to say Pettigrew hasn't told Voldy and Co. about your 'secret' by now?
IMHO, Sirius's actions and attitude are of a man with these qualities who is also a bit spoiled and used to getting his own way to boot (at the very least, arrogant--it may be endearing arrogance for those of us going 'Go, Good Guys!" but it still is arrogance). The subsequent depression he feels while trapped at Grimauld is a natural result of his kind of personality type being locked up with no way to get out and vent some of these feelings. So is his snapping at everyone, and progressively snapping worse as he goes into a downwards spiral of feeling trapped and useless (Clinical Depression anyone? Had it, not fun, for me or the folks around me). Although I didn't like seeing it, because it altered my view of 'poor, maligned Sirius' by quite a bit, there it is. Sirius did not need to be poisoned for him to be acting the way he did on OotP--it is all part of his base nature. 
Like any wild canine, he is protective, loving, supportive of  'his pack'--however, everyone else can go to hell in a hand basket, and Sirius would be more than happy to send them there himself, and think there was nothing wrong with doing so, no matter how nasty he got in doing it.

Silverthorne (One of too many Annes...^^;)






From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue Mar 16 14:42:05 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 14:42:05 -0000
Subject: Confusing and Befuddlement Draughts
In-Reply-To: <F5E7816227E4C74AB163DBAC938F5DBE0EB090@tenhdcthemx01.tenethealth.net>
Message-ID: <c373nt+10cao@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93122


> Alshain wrote:
> I disagree with the theory that Kreacher is slipping Sirius 
> Befuddlement Draughts.
>snip< 

anne (Silverthorne) wrote: I have to agree with Alshain here. We 
tend to forget that Sirius had a few very predominant traits (ones 
that proved out in the past as well as the present--and I doubt he 
was being 'poisoned' at school.

>snip<

Potioncat:
I snipped a lot of text with some very good points. I apologise if I 
took out too much.

 Actually, this is one of those issues that I could probably argue 
either way (I have a cushioning spell permantly set on the fence.)
I am not a Sirius fan.  In fact, I didn't like him at all in OoP and 
wasn't upset that he was the one who died.  (After being in shock 
having seen the boggart deaths of the Weasleys and when I thought it 
was going to be Arthur or Minerva.) 

So it is very surprising to me to re-discover the friendly, likable 
Sirius from GoF. In fact one of the differences that I see is that 
he frequently warns Harry to be careful and scolds him for taking 
risks in GoF.  In OoP as I recall, he actually taunts him for not 
taking risks! I'll be re-reading OoP with an eye for other 
differences after I finish GoF.

Another point is that we read often about potion making.  We, Harry, 
and Neville hear in painful detail what was done wrong in class or 
what a potion could do.  

In GoF, Snape goes to great lengths to determine if Harry is 
stealing potion supplies from his office. It seemed odd to us as 
readers at the time because the polyjuice episode had happened so 
long ago. It becomes very important later in GoF when we find out 
that Crouch/Moody was stealing polyjuice ingredients. It would make 
sense, as a previous post said, that if so much was written about 
befuddlement draughts in OoP, we would see them used in the plot.

On the other hand, I find it difficult to work out how Kreacher 
could be the one poisoning Sirius unless he is taking instructions 
from someone he considers a more rightful master.  Which leaves us, 
if this is correct, with  the question "Who poisoned Sirius?"

Potioncat




From delwynmarch at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 16 15:14:33 2004
From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 15:14:33 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Holding the Tiger's Tail
In-Reply-To: <c30kde+10oah@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c375kp+tppj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93123

Alla wrote :

> As long as they will be alive at the end , I am happy.
> I don't see Harry as superior to Ron in terms of his personality, 
> but I definitely see Harry as superiour to Ron in terms of the 
> burdens he has to carry. Although I like Ron, Harry is the one who 
> has my compassion and pity.
> 
> In comparison to Harry's problems, Ron's insecurities seem very 
> insignificant to me.

Del answers :

I don't like it when people compare pains and trials. In my idea, it 
makes no sense. It's not the trial that matters, it's what it does 
to people. Harry and Ron both have my total compassion, because they 
both deeply suffer from their problems. Harry's problems are more 
acute, more intense, but Harry is stronger than Ron because Ron's 
insecurities have undermined his self-confidence for ever, he's much 
more fragile.

Alla said :
 
> Although as I said I don't ship, before OoP I thought that books 
> do lead to Ron /Hermione romance. Now with Neville, Ginny and Luna 
> getting closer to the Trio, I am thinking that there will be no 
> romances inside the Trio.

Del answers :

Funny, I had kind of the same evolution. After what happened in GoF, 
I was sure Ron was bound to make a move on Hermione if he really 
wanted her. But he didn't. They spent lots of time alone : at 
Grimmauld place before Harry arrives, as Prefects, etc... and he 
never moves. And neither does Hermione.


Alla said :
 
> My prediction will be Neville/Hermione; Ron/Luna and Harry/Ginny

Del answers :

I love those ships !

Del





From jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net  Tue Mar 16 15:53:05 2004
From: jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net (Robert Jones)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 15:53:05 -0000
Subject: Ron to follow Voldemort? ("Die, Ron, die")
In-Reply-To: <c36jpb+4p9v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c377t1+vhlm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93124

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sienna291973" 
<jujupoet29 at h...> wrote:
> Eep! It just gets more and more sinister!  I think I may just go 
and 
> analyse all the Ron moments for more clues.  Does anyone know 
> whether an extensive analysis of this has already been done?
> 
> Sienna

Bobby: I don't know if there is any extensive analysis anywhere
(there is an analysis of the chess game in "Knight2King"). But here 
is an updated version of why I think Ron is going to die.

(1) Galadriel Waters has a rule that Ron is always wrong except when 
he is telling a joke.  And in OOTP 31, he expresses his dislike with 
Divination by saying that he would not believe tea leaves even if 
they spelled out "Die, Ron, die" (p. 718 US ed.).

Interestingly, JKR repeats the joke in her "Fantastic Beast" book: 
on the back of the first page, Harry and Ron are playing a game of 
Hangman when one of them writes "You die Weasley."  (Obviously that 
should be Harry saying that, but I am not sure whose handwriting is 
whose.)

(2) The main clue is the chess game at the end of PS/SS (ch. 16).  
Ron had already demonstrated his skill at Wizards Chess, and in the 
game at the end of the book he commands the pieces and sacrifices 
himself so that Harry can get to the stone and defeat LV.  Ron 
says "It's the only way . . . I've got to be taken."  I think in 
Book 7 this will be repeated for real: Ron will be a leader in the 
DA and he will have to intentionally sacrifice himself so that Harry 
can get to LV and defeat him.  This time he will be killed for 
real.  (The chess game might only indicate Ron will get hurt 
seriously sacrificing himself ? but in the configuration of other 
clues I think it suggests he will die.)

Chess skills are not always transferable to the real world, since 
the game is so abstract and analytical, but JKR did say in Book 1 
when Ron was teaching Harry how to play that Wizards Chess was like 
regular chess "except that the figures were alive, which made it a 
lot like directing troops in battle" (PS/SS 12, p. 199).  That it 
was like "directing troops in battle" shows what JKR thinks of the 
skill.  He got his troops to trust him and to follow him without 
question (p. 199).  Ron's skill in Wizards Chess is repeated in all 
the books; so JKR keeps reminding us of it.  Indeed, it is the only 
still Ron apparently has until Quidditch half way through OOTP.  
(But Ron definitely still needs to develop this leadership skill, 
his fighting skills, and in general must mature; in OOTP, both Harry 
and Hermione seem much more mature.)

In chess, Knights usually don't last to the end of the game, but are 
sacrificed.  Why didn't JKR put Ron on the King or Queen where he 
would be relatively safe rather than on a minor piece between his 
friends?  After all, he was commanding the pieces.  That he took a 
lower valued and more vulnerable piece between his friends must be 
symbolic.  It is a foreshadowing of what is to come.  (I'm not sure 
if the fact that Luna keeps singing "Weasley is our King" is 
significant here.)

How much the PS/SS chess game can be worked out as a fuller analogy 
of what is to come is not clear; some people see it as an elaborate, 
detailed code for the real story.  The faceless white pieces may 
represent the masked DE's, with the Queen (Bellatrix) being the one 
who kills Ron.  (The DE's are white because white always makes the 
first move in chess.)  Ron won't be a commander in the Order at his 
age.  But it is his willing sacrifice to help Harry that is 
important.

(3) In POA 17, Ron says that Sirius will have to kill all three of 
the trio if he is going to kill Harry.  That reiterates 
the "sacrifice to the death" theme.

(4) In the Christmas scene in POA 11, Trelawney brings the idea that 
when 13 people sit down to dine, the first one to get up dies.  
Together Harry and Ron are the first to get up.

(5) The Lexicon under "Wands" notes that Ron, like Cedric, has a 
wand with a unicorn hair.  In PS/SS, Hagrid says a unicorn is hurt 
to which the centaur Ronan replies that "Always the innocent are the 
first victims."  The Lexicon then asks if Ron is next.

(6) Other things indirectly support this idea.  At the end of Books 
1, 3, and 5, Ron gets hurt badly.  If this pattern continues, he is 
safe in Book 6 (and away from the action at the end), but in danger 
at the end of Book 7.

(7)  JKR's response to the question about a job for Ron in her 3/04 
interview is interesting.  She has earlier responded to questions 
about Harry's future life by saying "That assumes he is going to be 
alive."  Now she's not doing that for Harry and seems to be 
suggesting that Harry will survive.  But now she is using that 
cutesy answer for Ron.  Is this new answer just a trick to keep us 
guessing about Ron, or is it a real hesitancy not to give away an 
important part of the plot?  I think it might be the latter because 
why else introduce this type of answer now after using it for Harry?

(8) JKR also seems to be preparing Molly Weasley for the death of at 
least one of her children by the Boggart scene in OOTP 9.

Nobody wants to see Ron die, but those are the clues.  He is not 
just another goofy sidekick who always gets killed off in the 
movies.  His death would be even more of tragic if he gets the 
things he wanted from the Mirror of Erised scene in Book 1 (ch. 12) ?
 Quidditch captain and Head Boy ? and then dies.  He is already 
outshining his brothers in one respect: he got an award for special 
service to Hogwarts in COS.





From annemehr at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 16 17:25:10 2004
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 17:25:10 -0000
Subject: On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
In-Reply-To: <c358fh+jpt4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c37d9m+2ap6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93125

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt"
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman"
<susiequsie23 at s...> 
> wrote:
> 
> > Playing devil's advocate a bit here....  You have no right to force 
> > moral standards on the Dursleys?  Why not?  Are there no universal 
> > moral standards for treatment of others?  I find that unpalatable.  
> > Civilization depends upon certain mores and legalized moralities, 
> > does it not?  
> > 
> 
> Kneasy:
> People often talk about having 'a' moral code. They never say they 
> have 'the' moral code - because there isn't one. There are thousands. 
> 
> Generally speaking any prevailing moral code reflects the society
> where it is practised and for the most part is a standard of behaviour
> that is intended to allow that society to function with a minimum of 
> friction. So, different societies, different codes.

Annemehr:
First, a wave to Naama who's been arguing the position I agree with
(except for the abortion part), so now everyone knows where I'm coming
from.

And yes, there are thousands of "moral codes," but they are in
surprising agreement, and where they disagree is very often on what
aspects of morality to emphasise over others.  What they all do,
though, is more or less successfully approach absolute moral truth. 
Tolerance for differing moral codes has to be moderated by justice:
just as the world rejected South Africa's racist system and forced
change, so we can reject the Dursleys' treatment of Harry as wrong.

Kneasy:
> 
> "Ah," you say, "but that means that the Dursleys should treat Harry 
> by the code prevailing."
> "Ah," says I, "why didn't DD and the WW stick to *their* moral code
> instead of stuffing Harry into the equivalent of Dotheboys Hall?"

Annemehr:
What the Dursleys should do is try to see the difference between right
and wrong, make a reasonable attempt to do what is right, and treat
Harry accordingly.

Why bring Dumbeldore into it?  Whether DD was just a doddering old
fool who assumed the Dursleys would want to care for their nephew or a
Machiavellian who cared nothing about the abuse he foresaw, that has
nothing to do with Vernon and Petunia's guilt.  Culpability is not
like a pie where, if you assign a bigger portion to DD you're taking
away from the Dursleys.
 

Kneasy: 
> The Dursleys acted in an entirely predictable fashion - one that I
> suspect DD anticipated. How else could he be sure  that Harry
> would leap at the chance to go to Hogwarts? But if Harry was
> unhappy, then how much easier does it become to slot him into
> his pre-ordained role in DD's plan?  

> But of course morality has  nothing to do with the case, that's all
> eyewash; it's about pragmatism. And how often that beats morality
> to the winning post!

Annemehr:
As has already been pointed out, we don't really know exactly what DD
was chosing between: misery for Harry, death for Harry, death for
Harry and also for countless other witches and wizards?

How to save as many lives as possible with the least loss of life
caused by your own actions in the face of a very real threat is a
completely moral question, and one which DD is having difficulty with
himself.  DD apparently believes it is right to endanger or sacrifice
a relatively few lives in order to save many (this would fall under
the concept of a "just war," for anyone familiar with that).  Some
people will disagree and say it is wrong to cause anyone's death for
any reason at all.  This goes back to a point in my first paragraph
where I say many people's moral disagreements are often about which
aspects of morality should take precedence -- in this case the duty to
defend the innocent vs. the duty to avoid causing pain and death.

Kneasy:
 As a glaring example (and this will raise blood-
> pressure in more than a few) it is morally inconsistent to support the
> death penalty and oppose abortion - and vice versa. To be for both 
> or against both can be classed as a moral stance, but a split vote is
> not. Yet how many do so and try to claim the moral high ground?
> That's not morality, it's personal prejudice, like many stands that
> are made on 'moral' grounds.

Annemehr:
Well, I'm against both, and my blood pressure's fine, but I don't see
why a split vote can't be a moral stance; the people I know who are
against abortion and for the death penalty argue their case in terms
of justice.

Kneasy: 
> It's been a while since I last dipped into my collection of quotations,
> but this seems an apposite time, so I'll give you two:
> 
> "Morality is a private and costly luxury" - Henry Brooks Adams
> 
> "You can't learn too soon that the most useful thing about a principle
> is that it can always be sacrificed to expediency."
>  W. Somerset Maugham

Annemehr:
You've forgotten one that fits right in:

"There is no good and evil, there is only power, and those too weak to
seek it..."
Professor Quirrell

Annemehr





From jmmears at comcast.net  Tue Mar 16 17:49:24 2004
From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 17:49:24 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 14, Percy and Padfoot
In-Reply-To: <c36a1c+usbf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c37en4+hk4c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93126

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:


> Percy, after a rocky start, has a new job that recognises his 
worth,
> something he has struggle to get his family to do, he came home 
proud
> as can be after having been forgiven by the Ministry and given a 
job
> fitting his talents, and what does his family do to him in this 
proud
> moment? They crap all over him just like they always do. I, for 
one,
> don't blame him for being mad.


Er...."crap all over him just like they always do"?  Where exactly 
is the support for this statement; ie (apart from Fred & George) 
when has Percy's family ever treated him badly? Was it when he got 
the new owl for being a prefect, or perhaps when he was the only one 
to have his own room?  My impression of Percy's place in the family 
is that he got more privileges and parental support than all the 
rest put together.  I very much blame him for being mad, the 
ungrateful little snot <g>!

Steve continues: 
> On another point, Percy is doing the right thing. He is standing by
> his duly elected (or appointed) government, he is supporting the
> authorities that are empowered by their offices to guide and 
protect
> the wizard world. 


Percy's in a better position than anyone else to know the truth 
about the MoM, after his experience with Crouch the year before. 
It's not that he isn't intelligent enough, it's his intense ambition 
and egomania that prevents him from seeing what's right in front of 
his nose.

 

Steve again:

> I think the best explanation of Percy's actions that I've read, 
took
> the line that Percy cut himself off from his family to prove to 
them
> that he could get and keep his job based on his own abilities, and 
not
> because he could offer inside information about his family or about
> Dumbledore. By cutting himself off, he could prove the his father
> accusations had no foundation.
> 
> Now, having said that, I will admit that Percy continues to act 
like a
> first class pillock. But we have to understand that Harry and
> Dumbledore offered no real proof that Voldemort was back. There is 
no
> evidence, and given the nature of government to self-preservation 
and
> preservation of the status quo, their attitude is very predictable.
> Percy being loyal to the government and having no proof, simply 
shows
> support for his elected/appointed government.


Percy *is* a first class pillock.  Why would Percy need any 
more "proof" than Harry and Dumbledore's word?  When have either of 
them betrayed him or lied to him?  When have his parents ever 
betrayed or lied to him?  Why would he trust his MoM superiors over 
his own family? There is evidence if not proof that Dumbledore and 
Harry are telling the truth.  Percy just refuses to consider it 
because it will threaten his position in the MoM.  Unlike Arthur, 
Percy is choosing what is easy over what is right.


 I can't imaging that the entire wizard world won't call for
> a vote of 'no confidence' and get rid of Fudge altogether. 

I'm not so sure about that.  Remember that The Daily Prophet has 
completely reversed course on the topic of Harry and it won't take 
much for them to start questioning the leadership of the Ministry 
and it's failures.  Based on JKR's statement in the chat concerning 
there being a new Minister of Magic, I think that Fudge's days are 
numbered as far as his job goes.

 
> I'm a firm believer that there will be reconciliation between Percy
> and his family, I just hope we get to see it. It would be 
unfortunate
> for the next book to casually mention in passing that Percy and his
> family made up, and move on from there.

I agree that we will have to be shown the reconciliation if there is 
to be one.  I'm sure Arthur and Molly will be forgiving, but I have 
a hard time imagining that Fred, George, Ron, and Ginny will be 
eager to reconcile with Percy.  As it is, he's going to have to do a 
lot of groveling before I'll be willing to accept an apology from 
him.


Jo S., accepting that Percy Is Not Evil, but refusing to ever 
forgive him for making his mother cry on Christmas :P




From dicentra at xmission.com  Tue Mar 16 18:00:24 2004
From: dicentra at xmission.com (Dicentra spectabilis)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 18:00:24 -0000
Subject: All Things Green II
Message-ID: <c37fbo+hfet@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93127

It's the wearin' of the gr-- ... er ... the *finding* of the green.  

Two years ago, in 36388, we sponsored an "All Things Green" contest,
and now that OoP has been released, we'd like to do it again.

These are the rules:

1 - Find three (3) instances of the word "green" in Order of the Phoenix.
2 - Post the complete sentence and include page number and edition (US
or UK).
3 - Indicate to which house you belong; one point will be given for
each original entry.  
4 - Duplicate entries receive no points, so make sure your entry has
not been posted yet.

Contest ends on 20 Mar 2004 at 00:00 GMT.  The results will be posted
here.

Have fun!

--Dicey Elf




From mad_maxime at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 16 14:32:40 2004
From: mad_maxime at hotmail.com (mad_maxime)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 14:32:40 -0000
Subject: What's in it for Petunia?
In-Reply-To: <1079410992.27809.23.camel@ewey>
Message-ID: <c37368+d2nu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93128

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Sean Dwyer <ewe2 at c...> wrote:
Sean wrote:
> I'm still bugged by Petunia's insistence that Harry stays. It 
> doesn't make sense. Dumbledore as usual does NOT explain properly 
> why she would he doesn't REALLY say what his 'last' was, but I 
> seriously doubt an explaination of a magic blood pact fits the 
> picture. Vernon did what we would expect, Petunia should have even 
> more reason to be rid of Harry.
> 
> Obviously she knows more than she's saying. There is nothing
> explicit about her being forced by the pact to act. She's in more 
> danger with Harry around than not - Dudley may well be a Squib, as
> some have suggested, but that hardly gives her a motive to protect 
> Harry.
> 
> What did Dumbledore REALLY threaten her with?

Max:

I pretty sure this was discussed recently, but I'll post my thoughts
again.  Dumbledore didn't have to threaten Petunia with anything.  The
situation was pretty clear. Voldemort had just murdered James and Lily
and tried to murder Harry.  Even though Voldemort now seemed to be out
of the picture, there were still plenty of ruthless Death Eaters at
large torturing and killing people left and right.

If DEs decided to finish the job, where's one of the first places they
might go looking? 4 Privet Drive, of course.  

The theory which makes sense to me is that Dumbledore's blood charm
protects Petunia and Dudley as well as Harry (I'm not sure how this
might extend to Uncle Vernon).  They all share the same blood line,
after all.  So I don't see why the protection can't extend to all of them.

So, seen within this context, Petunia is definitely safer *with* Harry
than without.
   







From ekrbdg at msn.com  Tue Mar 16 14:55:14 2004
From: ekrbdg at msn.com (Kimberly)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 09:55:14 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Order of The Phoenix-spoiler
References: <c363ra+78l5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <024201c40b66$b17633e0$f1e0f943@hppav>

No: HPFGUIDX 93129

(Anole's comments)
>> but I just finished the OoTP and was 
>> amazed and depressed for some time about the death of Sirius!
>>
>> Did anyone have similar feelings after finishing the book?

(Jenjar's comments)
>I was depressed for days.  It still makes me very sad.  But, I've 
>read OoTP 2 more times and I really, really enjoyed it this last 
>time.  I felt more hopeful.  I think with all we don't know about the 
>circumstances of Sirius' death and about the veil, JKR left herself 
>plenty of room to play with in books 6 and 7.  Some on this list, not 
>too many, are holding out hope that Sirius is not really dead but 
>just trapped or something.  It's not likely but possible.  It's also 
>possible that Harry will find some way to communicate with him in the 
>future.  I think it's important to note that as Bellatrix and Sirius 
>were dueling canon reads  >

>"Harry saw Sirius duck Bellatrix's jet of red light: He was laughing 
>at her. 'Come on, you can do better than that!' he yelled, his voice 
>echoing around the cavernous room.  The second jet of light hit him 
>squarely on the chest."  >

>Then of course he falls through the veil.  Note that we don't know 
>what color the last jet of light was.  If it wasn't a green one 
>(killing curse) then Sirius *died* becuase he was knocked into the 
>veil, not because of a curse and this may not be a *real* death.  The 
>same rules of life and death may not apply if that's the case.  We'll 
>just have to wait and see.>

 

(Kimberly's comments)
I happen to like Sirius even though his behavior isn't always likable.  I was sad and in disbelief when I first read OoTP.  I had to re-read the passage several times because I thought I was somehow mistaken that HE was the one to die in the book.    However, as time has gone by I know that it's part of JKR's bigger plan for the books and as she stated in the Webchat, we need to keep reading and it'll all make sense as to why Sirius died.    

(webchat excerpt)
"Cookie246122: Why did you kill Sirius? It made me very sad :( 
JK Rowling replies -> I'm really, really sorry. I didn't want to do it, but there was a reason. If you think you can forgive me, keep reading, you'll find out. [I feel really guilty now]."

It's because of this comment from her that I don't think Sirius is in a temporary state of death.   I don't however think he is entirely gone from the books.   That is based on this quote from JKR.

(webchat excerpt)
" SiriuslyLovinSirius: If we ever see Sirius again, what form will he be in?
JK Rowling replies -> I couldn't possibly answer that for fear of incriminating myself.  "

Kimberly



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From ekrbdg at msn.com  Tue Mar 16 15:04:33 2004
From: ekrbdg at msn.com (Kimberly)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 10:04:33 -0500
Subject: Why Petunia Agreed to keep Harry
References: <c36fjr+4fjt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <026001c40b67$fea24180$f1e0f943@hppav>

No: HPFGUIDX 93130

 
  --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Sean Dwyer <ewe2 at c...> wrote:
  > I'm still bugged by Petunia's insistence that Harry stays. It doesn't
  > make sense. Dumbledore as usual does NOT explain properly why she would
  > - he doesn't REALLY say what his 'last' was, but I seriously doubt an
  > explaination of a magic blood pact fits the picture. Vernon did what we
  > would expect, Petunia should have even more reason to be rid of Harry.
  > 
  > Obviously she knows more than she's saying. There is nothing explicit
  > about her being forced by the pact to act. She's in more danger with
  > Harry around than not - Dudley may well be a Squib, as some have
  > suggested, but that hardly gives her a motive to protect Harry.
  > 
  > What did Dumbledore REALLY threaten her with?


  (Lynette's comments)
  >Maybe Professor Dumbledore explained Harry would be the one to 
  >dispatch Voldemort who threatened not only the WW but the Muggle 
  >world as well.  After we the readers discovered the "prophesy" we now 
  >know that he (Professor Dumbledore) had good reason to believe 
  >Voldemort would eventually return "right as rain and ready to 
  >thunder" someday. 


  I personally think that Petunia is quite aware of Voldemort and many of the goings on of the WW.   Harry, undeniably, has abilities that could defeat Voldemort and much as Petunia would like not to have to have Harry at Privet Drive, she knows in order for Harry to have the charm on him, he has to be there.   If she puts him out, the charm is broken  and then Harry has far less a chance of defeating Voldemort.   She knows it's in the best interest not only for the WW but for Muggles as well, that Voldemort be defeated.   I think that DD's letter to her probably reinforced that and reminded her of that.   I can imagine her thinking, "Okay, he can stay....but it's not because I want him here !".   
  Kimberly


   
   


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From ekrbdg at msn.com  Tue Mar 16 15:12:47 2004
From: ekrbdg at msn.com (Kimberly)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 10:12:47 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
References: <c36i61+7h98@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <027101c40b69$25363e40$f1e0f943@hppav>

No: HPFGUIDX 93131

> Carolyn:
>After we find out about how arrogant James and Sirius were at school, 
>and their evidently well-off and privileged backgrounds, I have often 
>wondered whether another factor for DD was to ensure Harry didn't get 
>that kind of upbringing. There was the issue of the blood protection 
>for Harry, of course, but the kind of life he was going to get at the 
>Dursleys may actually have appeared to be another 'good thing' in 
>DD's judgement. 


Kimberly:
I have often thought the same thing.    James, by most accounts, was arrogant.    With Harry being raised by the Dursleys, he would have a much humble upbringing.    By humble, I mean his thoughts in reference to himself, his abilities, etc.    Had he known from Day 1 that he was a great wizard, with lots of gold, etc., he would be a great deal different then the Harry he is now.    


 


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From ekrbdg at msn.com  Tue Mar 16 15:07:18 2004
From: ekrbdg at msn.com (Kimberly)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 10:07:18 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Remus J. Lupin
References: <c36hgo+10qot@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <026801c40b68$614606a0$f1e0f943@hppav>

No: HPFGUIDX 93132

(Lynnette's comments)
>>>I think 
this is why he was hired as the DADA professor that year as well, 
even if he did only resign because Snape spilled the beans about him.<<<

(Inge's comments)
>I guess Remus would have resigned even if Snape had NOT spilled the 
>beans. Remus was horrified that something could happen again while 
>being at Hogwarts as a teacher that might bring him to cause danger 
>or put lives at risk.
>That Snape talked and told his House of Remus' true identity was not 
>the reason Remus decided to leave. Just my oppinion.
>Inge

(Kimberly's comments)
I happen to agree.    He only came on as a favor to Dumbledore, correct?   And doesn't he say that he only agreed to come on for one year?   I think he knew he could be dangerous and therefore, agreed to just do it for a year as a favor.   He initially had planned on leaving anyway.

Kimberly

 


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From pt4ever at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 16 16:12:09 2004
From: pt4ever at yahoo.com (JoAnna)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 16:12:09 -0000
Subject: Confusing and Befuddlement Draughts
In-Reply-To: <F5E7816227E4C74AB163DBAC938F5DBE0EB090@tenhdcthemx01.tenethealth.net>
Message-ID: <c3790p+2q0f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93133

Silverthorne:
> 1) He's hotheaded 
> 2) He's a man of action as opposed to words 
> 3) He is aggressive, to the point of bordering on being a bully sometimes 
> 4) He usually does NOT listen to common sense unless Dumbledore is 
presenting it, and even then, he chafes at the bit, wanting to do 
whatever it is he wanted to do...you can even say he sulks about it. 

JoAnna:
Good points, all.  It occured to me during PoA that there was one 
way Sirius could have easily proved his innocence:  all he had to do 
was owl a letter to Dumbledore either explaining the situation (i.e. 
the truth about Pettigrew) or requesting a meeting so Sirius could 
prove his innocence.  Then all Dumbledore would have to do is call 
Ron up to his office and ask him to bring Scabbers along, and he 
could find out for himself if Scabbers really was Pettigrew.  Once 
that was found out, he could take Pettigrew to the Ministry, force-
feed Pettigrew some Veritaserum, and clear Sirius' name.  

Sirius, however, either didn't trust that Dumbledore would be 
willing to entertain the possibility of Sirius' innocence or didn't 
think of it, prefering to do things "his" way (i.e., get to Scabbers 
via Hogwarts, using violence if necessary).  And we all know how 
well that turned out.  (He also should have revived the bound Snape 
before showing Pettigrew, just so he could have another witness in 
addition to three teenage wizards, an escaped convict, and a 
werewolf, but Lupin didn't think of that either.)  Hindsight truly 
is 20/20.

- JoAnna





From ekrbdg at msn.com  Tue Mar 16 15:35:19 2004
From: ekrbdg at msn.com (Kimberly)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 10:35:19 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Colin Greevy and Social Promotion
References: <c35tev+o3ig@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <02bb01c40b6c$4aaad660$f1e0f943@hppav>

No: HPFGUIDX 93134


   
  >From: Robert Jones 
   >Here in New York City, there is a big argument right now 
  >about "social promotion" of failing students, and since I am 
  >rereading COS I thought of Colin Creevy.  He was a first-year who 
  >got petrified early in the school year and unpetrified only at the 
  >end of the year, and yet in POA he is in year two.  Shouldn't he 
  >have had to repeat the first year? 


  (Kimberly's comments)
  I went and re-read the material surrounding this.   It doesn't seem to have been very early in the year.   It was after the death day party which was Halloween.    It was also just before the second week of December.   That puts his petrification just about the end of November I'd say.    There is no mention of end of the year exams either.   The only thing I could find is that they cancelled DADA for the rest of the year but it was late in the year that it was cancelled.    Maybe he had to make-up lessons over the Summer ?   I doubt there's "Summer school" but it's possible he had to do work over the Summer to start PoA as a second year student.    


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From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Mar 16 18:52:31 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 18:52:31 -0000
Subject: On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
In-Reply-To: <c35pb8+q5ke@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c37idf+oocm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93135

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" 
<dumbledore11214 at y...> wrote:

> 
> Actually, yes, I do believe that Harry would have been safe 
growing  up with Dumbledore.
> 
> He is the only one Voldy ever feared, is he not? Had Harry been 
> growing up with Dumbledore (in his home, whereever that is, 
not in  Hogwarts), he would have been protected by one of the 
most powerful  wizards ever. <<

Whatever Molly, Hermione and Harry himself may fondly believe, 
Dumbledore is a wizard, not a talisman.  Dumbledore wasn't 
able to keep the members of the original Order from being 
picked off one by one. Whatever home he has outside Hogwarts, 
he didn't think it was a  safer place to guard the Stone 
than Gringotts. We learned in OOP that  in fact Voldemort  *isn't* 
afraid to attack him, and fled only when reinforcements arrived. 
Until we know whether Dumbledore's  ability to ward off 
Voldemort is any more than the wizarding equivalent of an urban 
legend, I wouldn't bet the farm on it. 

Pippin




From elfundeb at comcast.net  Tue Mar 16 19:49:24 2004
From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb2)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 19:49:24 -0000
Subject: All Things Green II
In-Reply-To: <c37fbo+hfet@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c37lo4+gk6u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93136

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Dicentra spectabilis" 
<dicentra at x> wrote:
> It's the wearin' of the gr-- ... er ... the *finding* of the 
green.  
> 
> 1 - Find three (3) instances of the word "green" in Order of the 
Phoenix.

Just 3?  Here goes, all from from ch. 10.

On p. 170 (UK edition), two references in one paragraph:

"Liquid squirted from every boil on the plant; thick, stinking, dark 
green jets of it.  They hit the ceiling, the windows, and spattered 
Luna Lovegood's magazine; Ginny, who had flung her arms up in front 
of her face just in time, merely looked as though she was wearing a 
slimy green hat, but Harry, whose hands had been busy preventing 
Trevor's escape, received a faceful."

And for the third, I don't know if this counts (the word is 
greenhouse, not green), but I'll throw it out anyway because it's 
from the same chapter as the first two:

Ch. 10, p. 169:

"I don't know if there's one in the greenhouse at Hogwarts, even."

As for my house, *I* think I'm a Ravenclaw but the sorting quizzes 
insist on putting me in Slytherin or Hufflepuff.  

Debbie
who noticed that the "black" references far outnumbered the "green" 
ones in this chapter







From meriaugust at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 16 19:57:16 2004
From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 19:57:16 -0000
Subject: Colin Greevy and Social Promotion
In-Reply-To: <02bb01c40b6c$4aaad660$f1e0f943@hppav>
Message-ID: <c37m6s+vkrd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93137

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kimberly" <ekrbdg at m...> wrote:
> 
>    
>   >From: Robert Jones 
>    >Here in New York City, there is a big argument right now 
>   >about "social promotion" of failing students, and since I am 
>   >rereading COS I thought of Colin Creevy.  He was a first-year 
who 
>   >got petrified early in the school year and unpetrified only at 
the 
>   >end of the year, and yet in POA he is in year two.  Shouldn't 
he 
>   >have had to repeat the first year? 
> 
> 
>   (Kimberly's comments)
>   I went and re-read the material surrounding this.   It doesn't 
seem to have been very early in the year.   It was after the death 
day party which was Halloween.    It was also just before the second 
week of December.   That puts his petrification just about the end 
of November I'd say.    There is no mention of end of the year exams 
either.   The only thing I could find is that they cancelled DADA 
for the rest of the year but it was late in the year that it was 
cancelled.    Maybe he had to make-up lessons over the Summer ?   I 
doubt there's "Summer school" but it's possible he had to do work 
over the Summer to start PoA as a second year student.    

Meri adds: 
Everyone's exams were cancelled at the CoS celebration feast as a 
school treat, so I am assuming that, with the exception of the fifth 
year OWLS and the seventh year NEWTS, nobody had to take exams to 
pass to next year. Colin does, after all have six more years left at 
the school to catch up what he missed. And Hermione's schooling 
didn't seem to suffer much, though she's not the best example. 
Meri 




From rorogersmc at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 16 19:39:50 2004
From: rorogersmc at yahoo.com (rorogersmc)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 19:39:50 -0000
Subject: Weasley's ages
In-Reply-To: <20040314210635.66893.qmail@web60706.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c37l66+vhid@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93138

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, danielle dassero <drdara at y...> wrote:
Snip of Danielle's:
> In SS Fred says they haven't won since Charlie left.
> Chap midnight duel. Since I agree that Molly would not
> have let Charlie leave early, and Charlie probably
> listened to his mum. And since the 93/94 schoolyear
> would have been the 8 year that they would have lost
> in quidditch. Then Charlie graduated in 1986. The
> 86/87 was year 1 lost,87/88 was year 2 lost,88/89 year
> 3, 89/90 year 4, 90/91 year 5,91/92 year 6,92/93 was
> year 7 lost. If they had lost instead of winning then
> 93/94 would have been the 8th year they lost. So
> depending on when Charlie's birthday was, Charlie
> would have been turned 18 or 19  in 1986 that makes
> him being born in 1967 or 1968. 

 SS US Paperback Ch. 13 pg 216 it says "If they won their next match, against 
Hufflepuff, they would overtake Slytherin in the house championship for the first time 
in seven years."  POA US Hardcover Ch. 15 pg 301 "Gryffindor hadn't won the 
Quidditch Cup since the legendary Charlie Weasley (Ron's second oldest brother) had 
been Seeker."
The Quidditch Cup and the House Championship are two different contests.  You 
can't assume because a house wins the Quidditch Cup it wins the house 
championship and visa-versa.  In PS/SS it may have been 7 years since they won the 
house championship, but you can't assume that it's been 7 years since they won the 
Quidditch Cup.  It could be true, but without more information we just can't assume 
things like that (ie. Charlie's last year at Hogwarts 1986.)

Rachael





From fredalss at ca.inter.net  Tue Mar 16 19:39:21 2004
From: fredalss at ca.inter.net (freda)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 14:39:21 -0500
Subject: All Things Green II
Message-ID: <a05210613bc7d04a59b51@[66.48.151.79]>

No: HPFGUIDX 93139

Here is my entry: all from Raincoast Books Canada Edition


Cars that were usually gleaming stood dusty in their drives and lawns 
that were once emerald green lay parched and yellowing - for the use 
of hosepipes had been banned due to drought. Page 7/
Dudley swayed on the spot for a moment, his face pale green... then 
he opened his mouth and vomited all over the doormat. page 28

A stately-looking witch in an emerald green shawl inclined her head. page 49
-- 
I don't know what House I am in!
Freda




From fredalss at ca.inter.net  Tue Mar 16 19:55:24 2004
From: fredalss at ca.inter.net (freda)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 14:55:24 -0500
Subject: All Things Green II
Message-ID: <a05210614bc7d08da9afb@[66.48.151.79]>

No: HPFGUIDX 93140

Here is another entry:

Greenish blood trickled down into his beard as he gave a soft groan 
of satisfaction. page 374

Underneath was a raw, bloody, green -tinged steak slightly larger 
than the average car tyre.  page 374

His own cauldron was issuing copious amounts of dark grey steam; 
Ron's was spitting green sparks. page 210

They both ducked again;a jet of green light had narrowly missed 
Sirius. page 708
-- 
Freda





From jenjar2001 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 16 19:31:09 2004
From: jenjar2001 at yahoo.com (jenjar2001)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 19:31:09 -0000
Subject: Confusing and Befuddlement Draughts
In-Reply-To: <c36tt9+69k8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c37klt+7kue@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93141

Alshain:
> I disagree with the theory that Kreacher is slipping Sirius 
> Befuddlement Draughts. 
<snip>
> So in short, I don't think Sirius's hotheadedness is magically 
> induced, just plain frustration with a horrible situation he can't 
> escape. Harry's thoughts when taken in context are the kind of 
> freewheeling associations your brain comes up with before falling 
> asleep. 


I think JKR emphasised the paragraph about confusing and befuddlement 
draughts way to much to be just freewheeling associations - it was 
repeated over and over- and then, after Harry falls asleep reading 
this paragraph, what wakes him up but a house elf!  Dobby is there 
bringing Hedwig back to him.  

And the way Sirius' mood coincided with Kreacher's absence/presence 
is too much too ignore.  It's clear that house-elves can *stretch* 
the rules a bit when they really want to.  Maybe Kreacher just left 
the herbs used for these draughts lying around the house or something 
and they had a similar effect.  

How else do you explain Sirius' seriously altered mood and out of 
character behavior in OoTP?

I respectfully disagree--there's just too much to suggest something 
like this was going on...

Jenjar




From kiatrier at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 16 20:36:42 2004
From: kiatrier at yahoo.com (Kia)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 20:36:42 -0000
Subject: Why Petunia Agreed to keep Harry
Message-ID: <c37ogq+v1a4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93142

>I personally think that Petunia is quite aware of Voldemort and 
>many of the
>goings on of the WW. Harry, undeniably, has abilities that could 
>defeat
>Voldemort and much as Petunia would like not to have to have 
>Harry at Privet
>Drive, she knows in order for Harry to have the charm on him, 
>he has to be
>there. If she puts him out, the charm is broken and then Harry 
>has far less a
>chance of defeating Voldemort. She knows it's in the best 
>interest not only
>for the WW but for Muggles as well, that Voldemort be defeated. 
>I think that
>DD's letter to her probably reinforced that and reminded her of 
>that. I can
>imagine her thinking, "Okay, he can stay....but it's not because I 
>want him here
>!".


I think the reason why Petunia let Harry stay, is simple blackmail 
from Dumbledore. I am not entirely sure how Dumbldore could 
blackmail Petunia in letter without Vernon realising it, but  I am 
very sure that if Petunia or Dudley have magical talent, Petunia 
would have zero interest in Vernon knowing about it.

I think, if Petunia would have known for sure that Harry would 
inherit his parents' magical talents and end up in the WW as its 
saviour, she wouldn't have been so surprised when the 
Hogwarts Letter finally came. 


Kia




From kreneeb at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 16 21:05:03 2004
From: kreneeb at hotmail.com (hermionekitten9)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 21:05:03 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 14, Percy and Padfoot
Message-ID: <c37q5v+29sr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93143

6. We know now that Percy's letter wasn't written under a
curse, nor was it a matter of him trying to keep under
cover as a double-agent. Why would it have mattered if
the letter arrived during breakfast? Students don't read
one another's mail. Does he think one letter from the
estranged family member can turn Ron against all his
friends and family?


Kitten.
I would like to think that percy is a spy for the order. For no 
other reason than to throw it in the twin's face's in the next 
book "Yes, I was a spy Feorge and Gred... what did you two do? Put a 
whoopee-cushion on someone's chair?" and I don't know why you
don't think it could happen. Call me crazy but, I love percy in all 
his pompous glory, a lot more then I liked the twins. In all the 
books never once did I think he was an ungrateful little snot, full 
of hot air... yes, snot... no. I always felt very sorry for him. He 
was always working hard, and doing what he was suppose to do just to 
be shot down. first by the twins, Ron, Ginny, who never took him 
seriously, then the ministry (I could never figure out how Percy was 
suppose to know that crouch was under the imperious curse) and 
finally his own father. I just can't see how people can hate a 
person who had to write a letter to his parents after his little 
sister was taken in a secret chamber, or who ran out to meet his 
little brother and friend after a triwizard task, I think we should 
give Percy a little more faith.


Jo S
>Er...."crap all over him just like they always do"? Where exactly
>is the support for this statement; ie (apart from Fred & George)
>when has Percy's family ever treated him badly? Was it when he got
>the new owl for being a prefect, or perhaps when he was the only one
>to have his own room? My impression of Percy's place in the family
>is that he got more privileges and parental support than all the
>rest put together. I very much blame him for being mad, the
>ungrateful little snot <g>!

kitten,
He *never* was more privileged or had more parental support then the 
rest put together, didn't Ron get a new broom for becoming prefect? 
Wasen't Molly and Arthur just as proud of that as when Percy was 
made headboy?  

Ron also has *his* own room, with a big plaque on his door that 
say's "Ronald's Room" and everything. I'm just assuming but I'm sure 
that ginny, being the only girl, has her own room also. In the 
fourth book, Ron and Ginny had to share because they had more people 
staying at the burrow Bill, Charley, Hermione, and Harry. Percy 
*did* have to work, granted his work may have seemed stupid (like 
his own family thought)and percy did puff up like a peacock because 
of it, but it was work, he wasn't on vacation, or home from school, 
with abundant leisure time to goof off, I would have let percy have 
his own room too.

Kitten 
who thinks that if Molly wanted to reconcile with her son, she could 
have done more then send a sweater.




From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Tue Mar 16 21:06:08 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 21:06:08 -0000
Subject: On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
In-Reply-To: <c36hnn+nuun@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c37q80+evl4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93144

Snip of part of posts by Del and Sue.

And Sue responds again as a point of clarity.  I am, by my own 
admission, a bleeding heart.  That's why I chose to teach in the 
inner city and eventually chose to never teach again.  I do believe 
most people would have taken well care of a child they chose to 
raise. It has nothing to do with anyone's personal issues.

Sue said :
> > Petunia *agreed* to take Harry.  There must have been a way 
> > for her to tell DD to take the bundle put it somewhere else. No 
> > thank you.  We have no idea what kind of agreement was made or 
> > whether there was compensation for Harry's care.  I am of the 
> > opinion that there was.
> 
> Del answers :
> 
> Petunia *screamed* when she found Harry on her doorstep. I wouldn't 
> call that an agreement. And even if she did agree later, that 
> doesn't mean she realized then what she was getting herself in. 
> Considering her emotional luggage concerning Harry's parents, I'd 
> say she bit more than she could chew, but didn't realize it then.

Petunia screamed, who wouldn't to find a baby on the doorstep.  At 
the time she found Harry, she didn't even know who he was, she had 
never seen him.  For all Petunia knew he could have belonged to a 
stranger.  If she knew immediatly who he was then she also knew here 
sister was dead, that would make me scream too. The most important 
point I was trying to make is that Petunia chose to keep him.  The 
moment she made that decision she held a responsibility to raise him, 
and raise him well.  She could have said no.  Their position here is 
not defensible (IMHO) because they did at least better by Dudley in 
providing food and shelter.  I do not believe, as I have said, that 
they were not provided any compensation for their job.  There was 
plenty of money (galleons) to provide for all of Harry's needs, DD is 
a practical man. For goodness sake, he paid Dobby. 

> Sue said
> > You are absolutely right to say that they would have to realize 
> > the "wrongness" of their behavior.  If you would be disappointed, 
> > I would be thrilled.  It is so much easier for people who have 
> > suffered abuse to heal when the people who did the abusing 
> > acknowledge the error of their ways.  I wish for Harry some path 
> > through the wilderness for at least part of what he has suffered.
> 
> Del answers :
> 
> I would be disappointed because of the message it would send out to 
> the kids out there, that people who don't think like us *must* 
> change in the end. It simply doesn't promote tolerance.
> 
To accept the abuse of another human being is not tolerance, it is 
capitulation and it is inexcusable.  I sincerely hope that no child 
reading these books on their own or being read to by an adult 
believes when it is all said and done is that the right thing to do 
is tolerate someone abusing someone else in any way.  I believe  JKR 
would be horrified at the thought of her words being used to 
promote "tolerance" in regards to abuse. Tolerance of difference, but 
abuse is not a difference it is a crime.  A crime against the 
vulnerable.
>
 Sue said :
> > > I suspect we will have to agree to disagree on the Dursleys.  
> > Everyone is redeemable (even Uncle Vernon :P), I hope they do 
> > redeem themselves and do something right for once.
> 
> Del answers :
> 
> One thing I've learned on this list is to agree to disagree :-) But 
> I have to point out that the Dursleys already did something right : 
> they took Harry in. For all we know, they might already have saved 
> his life by doing so.
> 

Taking Harry was the right thing to do which is why the decision to 
do so is so strange.  This is the most important reason why I believe 
they have been compensated for their efforts.  It also lends credence 
to the idea that Petunia knows a whole lot more about what is going 
on  than she lets on.  They probably did save his life, the question 
is why?  This is why I believe Petunia is more redeemable than 
Vernon, he really doesn't care if Harry dies, Petunia at least seems 
to.

As far as I am concerned, there really has been enough said (at least 
by me).  The beauty of a work of fiction (or biography for that 
matter)  is that everyone who reads it will see it from their own 
perspective and make it their own.  I wonder in the end what we will 
all find out about Petunia's decision to keep Harry and all of the 
subsequent choices she made.  I hope we will have answers on this 
back history as well.

Sue






From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Tue Mar 16 21:28:59 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 21:28:59 +0000
Subject: On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
Message-ID: <EFD5D657-7790-11D8-9A00-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93145

Another of those responses trying to cover multiple posts on the same 
thread. Long and only moderately satisfactory - fitting things in 
between spasms of work is not the best way of tackling these things.

Susan:
 >So why didn't they just say, "No way,  Jose?" >Whose moral code to 
abide by would not even have >been an issue in that, would it?

Kneasy:
That assumes a choice was offered. We just don't know. But I suspect 
the worst.

 >> "Morality is a private and costly luxury" -  >> Henry Brooks Adams

 >> "You can't learn too soon that the most useful >> thing about a 
principle is that it can always >> be sacrificed to expediency."
 >> W. Somerset Maugham

 > Susan:
 > I just flat-out disagree with these, as        > absolute statements. 
You love being a cynic; I > find it goes against my nature more times 
than
 > not.

Kneasy:
I'm not surprised; what you're stating is your own moral code -  which 
is partly the point I was making - morals are the result of the 
development of a *personal* choice. There may  be pressures from 
society as a whole to conform to certain mores, but unless actual 
legislation is enacted then morality and it's close relative ethics, 
remains a strictly private matter.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing and that is what we're indulging in, 
castigating the Dursleys for moral turpitude, forgetting that they 
didn't make their decision (if they were allowed a decision), on the 
basis of moral arguments; their decision was purely emotional - fear, 
hatred, all the sort of stuff that crashed down on them when they found 
the bundle and letter on the doorstep.

The Dursleys are remarkably unchanging in the views they hold. They 
don't like the WW, they don't like the Potters, they don't like Harry.
It is an entirely personal choice; there is no law or even social norm 
that forces anyone to like everybody. You may disagree with their 
choice, but that does not allow us to demand that they change it. Some 
may say that it is reasonable for  us to  demand that they change their 
*behaviour*, but really, what have they actually done? Have they beaten 
Harry? Starved him? (Undersized does not automatically equate to  
starvation; the only time a diet of that sort arrives they're all on 
it, including Petunia - who doesn't seem to  have flesh to spare 
either.)
And  sleeping under the stairs? If it didn't bother DD (the letter from 
Hogwarts knew exactly where he slept) why should we get agitated about 
it?

You can bet your boots that the treatment Harry received would pass 
muster  with Social Services, they'd make very sure of that.


 > Tcy:
 > I'm not sure about Puppetmaster!Dumbledore -   > but I have to agree 
with  Kneasy (groan) on    > this point. I find it very difficult to 
believe
 > that Albus didn't know what he was setting     > Harry up for. He may 
have underestimated some  > of the specifics - but I'll bet just about
 > anything that he knew what he was doing.

Kneasy:
Take heart! It'll probably be the last time you agree with me this 
year. But  it is nice to get some support.



 > Tcy:
 > How can we judge the Dursley's decision to take > Harry if we don't 
know the circumstances under > which they made this decision? Judge 
away on   > how they have treated Harry - but until we know > what that 
letter from Dumbledore contained, it > seems silly to say that they 
should have just  > passed on the offer. Perhaps there was no      > 
offer.
 > Perhaps it was an ultimatum.

Kneasy:
Or as near as makes no difference. DD dumps Harry  then wanders off 
into  the night thinking pure thoughts - maybe. Lovely way to find out 
that your sister has died, even if you didn't like her. DD -  so 
thoughtful, so caring, so sympathetic.

But we do really need to know what was said in that letter.


 > Pippin:
 > Now, now. Dumbledore never Fudges about the    > treatment Harry is 
going to receive. He only   > says it's the best place for him.
 > Meaning, of course, that it's the *only* place > for him. The Death 
Eaters go up and down the   > earth and to and fro upon it, and not 
even     > Dumbledore can hinder them from doing so. They > have 
penetrated Gringotts, the Ministry,       > Hogwarts and Saint Mungo's.

 > Where else would Harry have been safe? With    > Dumbledore?
 > Hardly--even with a wand to defend himself,    > Harry has just 
barely survived his five years  > at school. Dumbledore has managed to 
rescue him       > only with surprise on his side.


Kneasy:
Odd that. There's no evidence that the DEs were looking for him. Why 
would they want to? They went after the Longbottoms for information. 
Harry would be no good there, what could a 15 month old child tell 
them? Even when Harry comes out and starts at Hogwarts, strangely 
enough the DEs leave him alone - it's between Harry and Voldy, the rest 
don't seem to interfere except when Harry steps directly on their toes.

Sure, DD  came to the rescue with Crouch!Moody,  though I wonder  just 
how successful C!M  would have been in disposing of Harry - nobody else 
had even got close up to that point. Even at the Ministry Bella seems 
remarkably reluctant to use an AK on Harry, that privilege is reserved 
for Voldy.

IMO the idea that DEs were scouring the countryside looking for Potter 
Jnr. doesn't hold water. Rather it looks as if DD has parked Harry 
somewhere quiet until he is old enough for Hogwarts. A piece of left 
luggage, almost. "Leave him there, I'll pick him up when I'm ready" 
sort of thing. Heart-warming, isn't it?


Alla:
 > Actually, no scratch that. :o) As long as they > do not act on  their 
"moral standards", I would > let them be, but as soon as they start 
hurting > other people (Harry in this situation), I have > no problem 
forcing the general norms of        > behaviour (like abuse is not 
allowed)on them.  > After all, we don't allow people, who feel it  > is 
OK to commit a crime a free ride.


Kneasy:
What crime? There is  no evidence that they have committed one. They 
are unpleasant, yes, but that is not criminal. No beatings, not even 
threats of beatings, hand-me-down clothes, a sparse but apparently 
healthy diet, bed under the stairs - so what? No criminal activity 
there. Bullying from Dudders perhaps? Show me a similar pairing of boys 
that don't react to each other that way on occasion. It's endemic 
behaviour in boys.
Psychological damage? Is there any evidence that it has been inflicted? 
I can't see any.


 > Carolyn:
 > DD's a pretty cold fish, and the WW is a rough > place at the best of 
times, with people hexing > each other at the slightest provocation
 > (look at the queues at St Mungo's on Christmas > Day, or the way the 
kids hex Malfoy & co on the > train - no one acts particularly 
surprised or  > calls in the aurors or hit-wizards). I am not  > sure 
he would be bothered that Dudders might   > beat up Harry - Harry's 
magical after all, and > can't really be harmed.

 > The psychological damage to Harry of being     > unloved is another 
matter, but I don't think DD > would have given it great weight. By the 
end of
 > OOP he maybe has begun to have more of an      > insight here, 
because of his own care for Harry > which has grown up since the boy 
arrived at    > Hogwarts, but I personally was pretty unmoved  > by his 
tears when he talked to Harry after     > Sirius's death. They struck 
me as more self-   > pitying than produced by Harry's suffering.

Kneasy:
I agree with practically all the points you make. The WW seems a 
pleasantly robust world, in a way much healthier in their attitudes 
than we are. No whining that everybody must love them or they might end 
up damaged, no ridiculous ethic that everybody must be nice to 
everybody else  all the time,  no insistence on happy-clappy classes  
where everybody must share in each others successes, where everybody 
must have prizes. Quite old-fashioned, in  fact. Very similar to my own 
schooldays. A lesson best learnt early -  life is not fair and never 
will be, no matter what the social and educational professionals  say.

Self pitying DD is one way of putting it, another is manipulation. And 
that's the one I'll  plump for.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 16 21:30:06 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 21:30:06 -0000
Subject: Different moral standards (was : On the other hand)
In-Reply-To: <c33vnc+krg6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c37rku+flar@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93146

> Del:
> 
> <huge snip> Without a strong loving moral code to 
> support them, the Dursleys simply have no reason not to give in to 
> their anger and hate towards Harry and all he represents, they have 
> no reason not to use Harry as a scapegoat and punching ball when 
> they feel bad. And once the habit is taken of not considering Harry 
> as a real child deserving love, it's really hard to break. Not to 
> mention, of course, that I'm not so sure the Dursleys have *any* 
> love to give....
 
> Oh but I totally agree that the Dursleys are very cold-hearted ! 
> They are perfectly selfish, self-centered and cold-hearted, 3 very 
> big faults by our moral standards. But once again, I must emphasize 
> the fact that the Dursleys simply do NOT share our moral standards. 
> It's perfectly okay, in their idea, to be selfish, self-centered and 
> cold-hearted. That's what they think is right, that's what they 
> teach their son. And who are we to decide they are wrong to think 
> that way ? It hurts us, it shocks us, but there's no way we can say 
> they shouldn't think that way.
>
Carol:
I don't think it's their moral code that differs from most other
people's. As middle-class British Muggles, they were undoubtedly
taught the same (Western) values as everyone else in their social
class. What I think is "different" about them is a double standard for
the two boys. With Harry, they apply an old-fashioned "spare the rod,
spoil the child" mentality. They'll keep him from doing "evil" (magic)
through punishment and constraint. Dudley, their own *Muggle* child,
requires no such suppression in their view. Instead they apply a more
modern (and equally ineffective) method of child-rearing, confusing
indulgence with love (and in Vernon's case, confusing the brutality
cultivated at Smeltings with manliness). They know good from evil. How
could they not? They just choose to ignore bend the rules a little
when it comes to Harry, who is both different from themselves and
therefore, in their view, not entitled to the same rights and
privileges, and potentially dangerous, and therefore, in their view,
must be kept under control. (I am not trying to defend them, only to
analyze their psychology and behavior.)

Del: 
> That's kind of logical. Vernon is the father, the dominant male, out 
> there to destroy anything that might threaten his mate and his 
> offspring. Petunia is a female, which by definition means she has a 
> (very deeply hidden :-) soft spot for young ones.
> 
> The way the Dursleys treat Harry revolts me too, but I acknowledge 
> that they simply represent another morality, more "natural", 
> less "humane". I read somewhere that when a new lion takes over a 
> lion group, the first thing it does is kill all the offsprings of 
> the old leader, and the mothers let it do it, because that's the 
> natural order of things. Tough, but normal.

Carol:
This idea that maleness equals domination, femaleness equals
passivity, gentleness, and submission, seems very far from JKR's own
views. At least three of her male characters (Lupin, Arthur Weasley,
and Neville) are both decent and gentle; at least four of her female
characters (Molly Weasley, McGonagall, Hermione, and Umbridge) are
dominating and the last of the four is sadistic. Molly Weasley may
stay home, but she is very definitely the dominant partner in their
marriage. Petunia and Vernon seem to trade off as the dominant
partner, but she is capable (as in OoP) of standing her ground.

A lion is not a man or a lioness a woman. What distinguishes human
beings, even fictional ones like the Dursleys, from animals is the
capacity to form a moral code (or to acknowledge or reject a moral
code formed by others). The Dursleys are quite aware that they can't
kill, seriously injure, or starve Harry. They keep their abuse and
neglect within the legal limits imposed on them by middle-class
morality and English law. The dominant male concept doesn't hold water
in JKR's world (or the RW in which the book was written, either), nor
does it excuse Vernon's portion of the abuse. As for Petunia, who also
abuses and neglects Harry (though she imposes limits on herself and
perhaps her husband, it doesn't explain her conduct at all).

I agree with you that the Dursleys fear Harry and that their treatment
of him stems from that fear. But as far as I can see, that's the only
point we agree on.

Carol




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 16 21:36:38 2004
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 21:36:38 -0000
Subject: Colin Greevy and Social Promotion
In-Reply-To: <c35tev+o3ig@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c37s16+d3eo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93147

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Robert Jones"
<jones.r.h.j at w...> wrote:

> Here in New York City, there is a big argument right now about "social
> promotion" of failing students, and since I am rereading COS I thought
> of Colin Creevy.  He was a first-year who got petrified early in the 
> school year and unpetrified only at the end of the year, and yet in 
> POA he is in year two.  Shouldn't he have had to repeat the first 
> year?
>
> Robert J.

bboy_mn:

The problem with 'social promotion' in the real world is that it never
stops. If they passed a marginal student on to the next year that
might be OK if he pulled it together and performed better the next
year. But schools keep passing them again and again with no
accountability, consequently, we get high school graduates who can't
read or write, or if they do, they are doing so on a grade school level.

Part of that problem is the blame game, no one in the school wants to
accept responsibility, and therefore, push the blame off onto anyone
and everyone but themselves. The teachers lack support in the form of
adequate classroom financing, and support from the administration. If
a student fails, the teachers blame the administration and the
administration blames the teachers. In the meantime, no one has time,
or takes the risk of actually trying to teach a marginal student.

However, I guess we could say that Hogwarts is 'old school'. Teachers
like McGonagall and Snape do not let students slide by from year to
year without measuring up. Even though Colin missed most of a year of
school, McGonagall and Snape are going to demand that he bring himself
up to scratch the next school year. The student may not learn
everything that was studied in the missed year, but certainly teachers
like Snape and McGonagall are going to make the students do enough
extra work to cover the most important aspects of that year.

Plus, in the next year, Hogwarts teachers are not going to let the
student slide by again. In that next year, teachers are going to
demand that the student perform on a par with the other students. If
they don't, they will be given extra work, and pushed until they do
make the grade.

In addition, the wizard world has standardized tests (OWLS & NEWTS),
the teachers know that unlike the real world (USA) student can't keep
sliding until they are slide unseen right out of the system. At some
point, there will be a day of reckoning, and that day of reckoning
(OWLs) reflects as much on the teachers and school as it does on the
students.

Hermione is no problem, she is already far ahead of the rest of her
class. Colin, I'm quite convinced, was given extra work and help until
he was sufficiently capable of measuring up to the other students, and
demands were made of him to continue to perform adequately in all
subsequent years. 

That's the big difference between Colin's 'social promotion' and
social promotion in the real world. Hogwarts most certainly demanded
that Colin catch up and keep up.

Just a thought.

bboy_mn





From drdara at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 16 21:55:46 2004
From: drdara at yahoo.com (danielle dassero)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 13:55:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Weasley's ages
In-Reply-To: <c37l66+vhid@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040316215546.3750.qmail@web60710.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93148

I never said anything about the house cup. I was
talking purely quidditch and I used the 7 year mark
from POA and the we haven't won since Charlie left
school for the Quidditch game cup. 
DAnielle D

> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, danielle
> dassero <drdara at y...> wrote:
> Snip of Danielle's:
> > In SS Fred says they haven't won since Charlie
> left.
> > Chap midnight duel. Since I agree that Molly would
> not
> > have let Charlie leave early, and Charlie probably
> > listened to his mum. And since the 93/94
> schoolyear
> > would have been the 8 year that they would have
> lost
> > in quidditch. Then Charlie graduated in 1986. The
> > 86/87 was year 1 lost,87/88 was year 2 lost,88/89
> year
> > 3, 89/90 year 4, 90/91 year 5,91/92 year 6,92/93
> was
> > year 7 lost. If they had lost instead of winning
> then
> > 93/94 would have been the 8th year they lost. So
> > depending on when Charlie's birthday was, Charlie
> > would have been turned 18 or 19  in 1986 that
> makes
> > him being born in 1967 or 1968. 
> 
>  SS US Paperback Ch. 13 pg 216 it says "If they won
> their next match, against 
> Hufflepuff, they would overtake Slytherin in the
> house championship for the first time 
> in seven years."  POA US Hardcover Ch. 15 pg 301
> "Gryffindor hadn't won the 
> Quidditch Cup since the legendary Charlie Weasley
> (Ron's second oldest brother) had 
> been Seeker."
> The Quidditch Cup and the House Championship are two
> different contests.  You 
> can't assume because a house wins the Quidditch Cup
> it wins the house 
> championship and visa-versa.  In PS/SS it may have
> been 7 years since they won the 
> house championship, but you can't assume that it's
> been 7 years since they won the 
> Quidditch Cup.  It could be true, but without more
> information we just can't assume 
> things like that (ie. Charlie's last year at
> Hogwarts 1986.)
> 
> Rachael
> 
> 
> 


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam
http://mail.yahoo.com



From kcawte at ntlworld.com  Wed Mar 17 06:22:37 2004
From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 22:22:37 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Colin Greevy and Social Promotion
References: <c37s16+d3eo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <004301c40be8$3ee1cc40$bcde6251@kathryn>

No: HPFGUIDX 93149

OK I snipped everything because I decided that it wasn't necessary to
understand my reply and besides I'm addressing the issue in general rather
than anyone's individual points.

My reply is based on assuming Hogwarts is roughly analogous to the British
school system. What makes anyone think there is any system for a child not
to automatically progress to the next year each year? It doesn't really
happen in the British school system - every year you are at school you go up
a year until you sit your GCSEs (muggle equivalent of the OWLs) at which
point you either choose whether or not to continue in school (although that
seems to happen at 17 in the WW rather than 16) or you fail dismally and
don't get given a choice (ie you can't continue because you haven't reached
the academic standard required to carry on, although with many more
vocational qualifications available in school now besides the academic ones
total failure doesn't guarantee an end to your education).

I never got the impression that failing the end of year exams at Hogwarts
would get you kept back or kicked out but rather that they were there to
show the students (and their parents) and their teachers where the students
were magically and where their strengths and weaknesses lay. I suspect a
'failing' student would simply be given extra coaching and such rather than
being kept back.

Now obviously the petrified students were special cases since they didn't so
much fail to learn the material as they weren't in a position to be taught
it, but I still think they would simply be given extra work to catch up if
they had missed something important for their later education (ie spells
that form the basis of more advanced spells to be taught later or which are
likely to come up on the external examinations) and the rest would just be
something they never learn (except I suspect Hermione would run along to the
library and learn *everything* she missed regardless of how insignificant
and irrelevent just because she's that sort of person)

K





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 16 22:31:42 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 22:31:42 -0000
Subject: Origins of Sirius/Keeping the wolf from the door
In-Reply-To: <c34jn2+t9qc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c37v8e+5nij@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93150

Carol:
Great post, Alshain! I'd be "entertained" (enlightened) if you'd do
one for Bellatrix (woman warrior?), which of course you know is a
bright star in the constellation Orion. (I'll bet Bella's Patronus 
is an Amazon.)
 
Mandy here:
I have the idea that all petronus' are in animal form, something like 
the American Indian Animal Spirit Guides.  

If that is so, Bellatrix's patronus cannot be an Amazon who were a 
race of human female warriors.  Bellatrix's petronus would be a 
Hyena. 

Hyena's are truly fierce predators and scavangers who live in 
matriarchal societies where the males are significantly smaller than 
the females.  They also laugh or scream in place of a roar.  Sounds 
like Bella to me.

Carol again:
Interesting idea, Mandy, but I don't think we have enough information
about patronuses (patroni?) to assume that they're necessarily
animals. An animagus form would have to be that of an animal (by
definition), but if boggarts can be inanimate objects (a moon or a
crystal ball, depending on what we think of Lupin's boggart) or people
(Snape, dead family members), why couldn't a patronus also take human
form? Bellatrix (woman warrior) suggests an Amazon patronus
(protector) to me, just as Sirius suggests a dog animagus and Remus
Lupin suggests a connection with wolves.

I'm not saying that I'm right, only that we've seen too few patronuses
to know what form they generally take, or if there's a general form at
all.

Carol




From jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net  Tue Mar 16 22:36:27 2004
From: jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net (Robert Jones)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 22:36:27 -0000
Subject: Colin Greevy and Social Promotion
In-Reply-To: <004301c40be8$3ee1cc40$bcde6251@kathryn>
Message-ID: <c37vhb+s7p2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93151

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" <kcawte at n...> 
wrote:
> My reply is based on assuming Hogwarts is roughly analogous to the 
British
> school system. What makes anyone think there is any system for a 
child not
> to automatically progress to the next year each year? 

Bobby: I don't have my copy of Book 1 with me, but I think it said 
at the end when the students received there grades that Harry had 
hoped that Grabbe or Goyle (I forget which one) had flunked.  I took 
that to mean that he would be held back or something bad.

In COS Harry said that over the summer he had forgetten most of what 
he had learned the first year.  So maybe Colin Greevy wouldn't have 
to do too much extra work to catch up.  (Hermione of course is no 
problem.)




From gbannister10 at aol.com  Tue Mar 16 22:42:10 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 22:42:10 -0000
Subject: Different moral standards (was : On the other hand)
In-Reply-To: <c36sdo+ffn3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c37vs2+5rhj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93152

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Doriane" <delwynmarch at y...> 
wrote:
> 
> Geoff said :
> 
> > As a Christian, I believe that there are moral absolutes
> 
> Del replies :
> 
> I'm a Christian too, but not everyone is. And even as fellow 
> Christians, it is possible we don't have exactly the same moral 
> absolutes.


Geoff:
That is a contradiction in terms. An absolute is an absolute is an 
absolute. What is an absolute in France is an absolute in the UK is 
an absolute in the US.


> Geoff said :
> 
> > Jesus was asked on one occasion about the great commandments and 
> > he distilled them into two. (...) the second is to love your 
> > neighbour as yourself.
> >
> > Some readers will doubtless disagree with me over the first but 
> > the second is in many ways the mortar of society and we can only 
> > get this one to work if we agree on the fundamental structure of 
> > society.
> 
> Del replies :
> 
> I must respectfully disagree. I just have to look around me to see 
> that most people, Christian or not, don't care about loving their 
> neighbours. They want to be loved, but they don't care about 
loving. 
> Big difference. It's always "me first". Just like the Dursleys. The 
> only true mortar of society that I can see, so far, is that 
everyone 
> is looking for their own fulfillment, in their own way. 


Geoff:
I don't think this is the true mortar of society because what you are 
describing is a phenomenon which ultimately threatens to undermine 
society. It is the "I'm all right Jack" approach and the 
materialistic attitude of governments such as the "enterprise 
culture" of Margaret Thatcher in the 1980s (which preached that 
success was two cars outside a lavish house, green wellies, a child 
called Crispin and a dog called Tebbitt) that has eroded the 
traditional links of society and rubbished the spiritual element of 
life - spiritual in its broadest sense in this context.

The problem facing the Dursleys is the same which faces people in the 
real world who try to say that we can have different moral stances. 
If we take this view to its logical extreme, then anyone can hold any 
view and argue that it is right because it is their view of morals. 
we have to accept that anyone can claim that their interpretation of 
life represents their stance.....

Nazis could argue that the elimination of Communists, the killing of 
people of Slavic descent and the Holocaust were quite in order 
because they believed that this was a perfectly correct moral 
attitude.

Ian Huntley could argue that it was quite alright for him to abuse 
and murder the two girls at Soham because he felt it fitted his own 
moral standpoint. A paedophile could argue that their abuse of 
children was quite in order because they saw nothing wrong with it 
within their own moral code.

I apologise if these ideas are anathema to some readers but they are 
the logical conclusion of assuming that you can have a "free market 
economy" in moral views. Either you have absolutes or you have the 
mish-mash of anyone's choice of a moral pick-and-mix.

We see this in the Wizarding world in the long discussions we have 
had over the question of pureblood versus half-blood and mudblood 
where folk such as Voldemort (who, in the same way that Hitler was 
not German and did not meet the ideals he laid down for the 
Herrenvolk himself, was not a pureblood) and purebloods such as 
Lucius Malfoy presume that they can consider themselves to be above 
the rest of wizarding society and assume a moral ethic which includes 
the ethnic cleansing of lesser beings.


> Geoff said :
> 
> > Yes, but we are human beings, with consciences and self-
awareness -
> > dare I say made in the image of God - and not animals acting by 
> > instinct.
> 
> Del answers :
> 
> I've read some articles on human biology that say exactly the 
> opposite. Some scientists truly seem to believe that *everything* 
in 
> human behaviour, including love and compassion, can be explained by 
> either biology or social strategy.
>

Geoff:
Hm. I find it difficult to believe that biology or social strategy 
make me prefer walking to being a couch potato or preferring 
raspberries to bananas. I am sure there are many of our posters who 
will agree with me that we are humans created by God while some may 
not go all the way with me but still accept the idea of a higher 
being rather than suggesting we are a random error in the fabric of 
the universe.

OK. Having dropped the feline well and truly in the middle of the 
avians, I shall retire behind the battlements with my bow and arrow 
at the ready.





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 16 22:52:46 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 22:52:46 -0000
Subject: Snape and the MOM
In-Reply-To: <c34boq+1jb9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c380fu+lv5v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93153


>>>Carol:
>He [Snape] also would have no way of *instantly* notifying LV that
Harry was missing.<<<
  
>>Susan:
How do we know that, Carol?  Didn't DD tell Harry at the end of 
OoP that Order members have "more reliable means of 
communication" than fireplaces?  He didn't explain what those 
means are but left it open for a futute revelation.  (Fawkes, for 
one, seems to have some pretty powerful magical abilities; I 
wonder if he can't provide almost instantaneous communication?)  
Anyway, if DD & the Order have such means, why might not Voldy & 
his henchmen/women?<<  

>Carol: 
The means of communication DD talks about are for members of the
Order, not for Snape communicating with LV. Whatever means Snape has
for communicating with DD (and I think he must have used them to
summon DD to Grimmauld Place on the night of the MoM battle), we can
be sure he doesn't use the same means to communicate with LV. He's
certainly not going to communicate with LV using Fawkes. We can also
be pretty sure that Crouch Jr. communicated with LV by owl (the 
eagle owl dream almost certainly refers to a real eagle owl that 
Harry sees flying over the Forbidden Forest--I can look up the 
quote if you need it). I'm still convinced, BTW, that Snape's 
primary means of communication with LV and the DEs is some sort of 
arrangement with Malfoy. If there were some sort of instrument in 
his office that he uses, wouldn't Crouch Jr. have found it in his 
search?
> 
> Susan:
> I absolutely do not agree.  The point I was trying to make is that I 
> believe adult wizards--particularly those who have advanced skills--
> know about additional means of communication beyond those available 
> to Hogwarts students.  If the Order members have **as-yet-undescribed-
> by-DD** means of quick, reliable communication, why would it be so 
> hard to believe that Voldy and his followers have quick, reliable 
> means of communications themselves?  (Isn't the Dark Mark a pretty 
> quick, reliable means of communicating *something*?)  No, I didn't 
> think Snape used Fawkes, nor even that his means of contacting Voldy 
> are the same means that he uses for contacting DD, but I just don't 
> think we *know* anything much at all about the multiple ways 
> communication can occur in the WW, and I think we should be cautious 
> about assumptions of what *isn't* possible.   
> 
> I don't even want to go into the rest of this because I think we're 
> arguing in circles.  Suffice it to say, for me, Snape can make an 
> excuse any time he needs to by virtue of his position as "spy" for 
> the DEs.  There are things he can't do or say if he doesn't want to 
> compromise DD's trust, and if Voldy wants to keep Snape close to DD, 
> he's going to have to allow things in Snape's behavior that he 
> wouldn't tolerate in others.  Snape has a *tricky* path to walk, but 
> I believe he's smart & crafty enough to find excuses for the 
> information he does not pass along.  (You kind of said this, too, in 
> your very first sentence, above).  I would argue that the more 
> volatile the information, the more Snape can argue to Voldy that he 
> has to be careful not to tip off DD.  


Carol, making one last attempt:
I agree that the Dark Mark is a means of instantaneous communication,
but I don't see how it can be the means by which snape discovers his
information about the DEs or, conversely, communicates with LV. You
also haven't responded to my point that Crouch!Moody didn't find any
instrument of communication in Snape's office and that he apparently
uses owls to communicate with LV himself.

Also, if Snape had a safe, easy, and reliable means of communicating
with Voldemort, why didn't he use it in GoF to save himself from being
considered AWOL in the graveyard? Whether he was presumed to be "the
coward," (a view which will never make sense to me) or the one who
won't return (which does), he would not have been in danger of
punishment or death if he had sent Voldemort or Peter Pettigrew and
instant message. And he would not have had to go into clear and
obvious danger, sensed by both himself and Dumbledore, at the end of GoF.

I really don't understand why we're putting so much effort into
arguing this very small point, and maybe we're misunderstanding each
other's basic position somehow. But in any case, I just don't think
Snape can communicate instantly with Voldemort or Lucius Malfoy as he
apparently can with Dumbledore. Whatever he does requires him to go
into danger, and on at least one occasion to communicate with Lucius
Malfoy (who told him about seeing Sirius in dog form). We have no
canon evidence of his communicating directly with Voldemort, either
face to face or through the instant means you're suggesting).

If this last post doesn't convince you, and I have a feeling it won't,
can we agree to disagree on this? Neither of us *knows* the answer.
We're just putting the few pieces of evidence together differently.

Carol




From Zarleycat at aol.com  Tue Mar 16 22:57:11 2004
From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 22:57:11 -0000
Subject: Sirius and Confusing and Befuddlement Draughts
In-Reply-To: <c3790p+2q0f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c380o7+kmhn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93154

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "JoAnna" <pt4ever at y...> wrote:
> Silverthorne:
> > 1) He's hotheaded 
> > 2) He's a man of action as opposed to words 
> > 3) He is aggressive, to the point of bordering on being a bully 
sometimes 
> > 4) He usually does NOT listen to common sense unless Dumbledore 
is 
> presenting it, and even then, he chafes at the bit, wanting to do 
> whatever it is he wanted to do...you can even say he sulks about 
it. 
> 
> JoAnna:
> Good points, all.  It occured to me during PoA that there was one 
> way Sirius could have easily proved his innocence:  all he had to 
do 
> was owl a letter to Dumbledore either explaining the situation 
(i.e. 
> the truth about Pettigrew) or requesting a meeting so Sirius could 
> prove his innocence.  Then all Dumbledore would have to do is call 
> Ron up to his office and ask him to bring Scabbers along, and he 
> could find out for himself if Scabbers really was Pettigrew.  Once 
> that was found out, he could take Pettigrew to the Ministry, force-
> feed Pettigrew some Veritaserum, and clear Sirius' name.  
> 
> Sirius, however, either didn't trust that Dumbledore would be 
> willing to entertain the possibility of Sirius' innocence or didn't 
> think of it, prefering to do things "his" way (i.e., get to 
Scabbers 
> via Hogwarts, using violence if necessary).  And we all know how 
> well that turned out.  (He also should have revived the bound Snape 
> before showing Pettigrew, just so he could have another witness in 
> addition to three teenage wizards, an escaped convict, and a 
> werewolf, but Lupin didn't think of that either.)  Hindsight truly 
> is 20/20.


Marianne:

And why should Sirius have immediately trusted that a message to 
Dumbledore would have led to a cozy chat where all could be explained?
Dumbldedore knew where Sirius was for the last 12 years, yet we have 
no evidence that he sought to question Sirius about what happened 
with the Potters/Secret Keeper, etc.  Dumbledore was the leader of 
the Order the first time around, but apparently believed that one of 
his soldiers was indeed guilty of horrible treachery and didn't seem 
to have a problem with locking the guy away without benefit of a 
trial.

Sirius knows the entire world, including his former leader, believe 
him guilty.  Would it makes sense to put himself in danger of 
recapture on the off-chance that Dumbledore might just give him a 
listen when he's not giving a rat's ass for 12 years? 

To change focus a bit, in looking at the list of 4 Sirius character 
traits Anne listed, it all depends on what book you're reading. I'm 
listing a few things I'm grabbing off the top of my head, but the 
more I think about it, the increasingly inconsistent Sirius' 
character strikes me.

Hot-headed - 

PoA, Yes, but I'd cut him some slack because of residual Azkaban 
influences.  
GoF Can't think of an instance of hot-headedness.
OoP - Certainly there are some examples here, but what one person 
would describe as hot-headed, others may not, like the snarking with 
Molly about Harry. 

Actions rather than words:
PoA: As a wanted fugitive with the entire world on his tail, words 
were not necessarily going to keep Sirius alive. Action was what 
could deliver Scabbers into his hands. However, he did stand still 
for Remus' explanation in the Shrieking Shack, however begrudgingly, 
and he did use words to explain to Harry just what happened.
GoF: Much of the interaction between Harry and Sirius for the entire 
book contained a running verbal and written theme of warning from 
Sirius to Harry to be careful and not take risks. Which also flies in 
the face of the hot-headedness aspect. Sirius was much more word-
oriented than action-oriented in GoF, IMO.
OoP: Sirius was constrained from action for most of the book, and is 
not happy about it. Yes, he dashes off to the train station.  And 
then, as far as we know, stays locked up in the house for the next 9 
months. I'd be cranky, too.;-) But, I'd agree that OoP Sirius is 
certainly chafing at his enforced inactivity.

Aggressive:
PoA: I still am of the opinion that many of Sirius' actions in this 
book were heavily influenced by his years in prison. I simply cannot 
believe that anyone suffering physical deprivation, and 
emotional/mental torture for years can be expected to bounce back 
quickly to then become a model of decorum, polite behavior and 
completely rational thought. Was it a good idea to slash the Fat Lady 
or drag Ron into the tunnel? No, but I can understand why it happened.
Of course, this book is where we come across everyone's favorite non-
canon "P word." The Prank. Was that attempted murder, as Snape thinks?
That certainly would rank as aggressive. Or, since JKR has said that 
we'll find out more about that in the future, are we missing 
something important from the story?
GoF:  Breaking into a house to use the fire?  That's the most 
aggressive act I can think of.
OoP: The almost-duel with Snape. Snape's Worst Memory. Certainly an 
aggressive streak shows up here.

Not listening to common sense:
PoA: There is no interaction on which to base an assessment until we 
get to the Shrieking Shack scene. At which point Sirius does listen 
to both Remus and Harry.
GoF: Oddly enough, Sirius is the dispenser of common sense to Harry 
in this one.
OoP: Sirius resents Dumbledore's instructions to stay put. But, he 
does stay put except for the trip to the train station and the last 
journey to the Dept. of Mysteries. He's angry with Harry shooting 
down the idea of slipping up to Hogsmeade. But, he stays at Grimmauld 
Place. After that one trip out in September, I'd say Sirius pretty 
well adhered to Dumbledore's instructions. Except for when Harry and 
friends went to the Dept. of Mysteries.  Common sense would have 
dictated that Sirius stay behind.  Or would it? Common sense might 
also say that these kids were walking into what the Order members 
have guessed is a trap set by Voldemort and his henchmen and that any 
able-bodied witch or wizard able to wield a wand had best get over 
there before it's too late.

I don't know.  I can reconcile PoA-Sirius with OoP-Sirius. But GoF-
Sirius still strikes me as very different from OoP-Sirius. Maybe GoF-
Sirius was really Stubby Boardman...

Marianne

 




From snapesmate at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 17 00:07:51 2004
From: snapesmate at hotmail.com (snapesmate)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 00:07:51 -0000
Subject: Snape the Gryffindor or Ravenclaw?!
Message-ID: <c384sn+a8su@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93156

Is there actually any canon stating Snape was in Slytherin? I do not
have my books handy. I know Sirius said that Snape hung out with an
older group of Slytherins, but is there actually CANON stating Snape
was IN Slytherin? I do not think one would have to have been in a
particular house to be head of that house as a staff member. In know
JKR was asked about the house affiliation of MWPP, but what about
Snape?

Lynnette, who thinks Snape IS a good guy, even if he is NOT a nice
guy!

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterverseofadults




From nkafkafi at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 17 00:13:13 2004
From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 00:13:13 -0000
Subject: How can LV win the war in three weeks
In-Reply-To: <20040316093513.E866C2D2239@front.interia.pl>
Message-ID: <c3856p+bkog@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93157

> Viridis:
> I like your clean logic employed in the plan. However I see wrong 
assumption, which constitute a major flaw.  
> Moody said it needs a powerful wizard to execute the Unforgivables;

Neri:
I attempted to take care of the power problem in #92920, but I won't 
argue the point further because I don't think we have enough details 
in canon to decide if the Imperius virus will or will not work (this 
is often a purely empirical question even in real-world programs).
 
> Viridis:
 we saw Harry shaking off Imperio and than winning the duel with 
Voldie by the power of the will. He's certainly strong willed person, 
for which examples can be found throghout the books. 
> In OotP, especially in MoM battle, we have finally seen the 
conection between psyche and the magic - which is very typical for 
general understanding of magic as skill(ability)+will (in folklore, 
legends and fantasy along). So the  person has possibilties for 
executing these kinds of magic (s)he as also psychic tendency for: 
sadists are great with Cruciatus. 

Neri:
The theme of magic as manifestation of psych is a very common clich? 
in fantasy books. I like JKR writing specifically because her brand 
of magic is a bit more mechanistic than that. It is not enough to be 
strong willed in order to be a powerful wizard, you also need to be 
intelligent, and magic is often applied in clever and unexpected 
ways, like DD using the Mirror of Erised as a security device, or the 
Goblet made a portkey.

> Viridis:
<Snip>
> Well, yes, as much as I like JKR's work, she is not a world-
creator. She basically substituted "technology and science" 
with "magic". So the similarites are not surprising. She did it with 
great grace, to be sure.

Neri:
I agree only in part. Very few made-up universes are really original. 
Most differ from our real world (or from a well-known mythological 
world) only by a single parameter or two. Detail and consistency are 
more important than originality in this game. I don't know many 
fantasy or even science-fiction worlds in which it is possible to 
construct something like the Imperius virus: a unique and detailed 
device that follows directly from the author's rules, yet was clearly 
not envisioned by the author herself.

Neri




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 17 00:14:59 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 00:14:59 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 14, Percy and Padfoot
In-Reply-To: <c35d2t+rl8f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c385a3+1djc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93158

> > Questions for discussion:
 
1. If house elves are freed against their will, where do 
 they go? Can they stay at Hogwarts if they desire? If so, 
 what does it matter if a house elf is inadvertently 
 freed? < <

Dudemom_2000:
> Winky was freed against her will and Dobby (he wanted to be free and 
> got his wish another way) indicated that they went around to try to 
> find another situation but no one would have them. Dobby came to 
> Hogwarts because he knew Harry was there and also Dumbledore's 
> reputation. I would suspect that a different headmaster might not be 
> as willing to take on a disgraced house elf or one that 
> was "inadvertantly" freed. I also wonder if being Malfoy's house elf 
> may have contributed to other wizards not wanting to take Dobby on. 
> The only way I can see for Hermione to "inadvertently" free a house 
> elf would be to lie in wait and throw socks at them and hope they 
> catch them without thinking. It probably would matter a lot if she 
> did that because the house elves would probably come after her since 
> they don't really want to be free! 

Carol:
Has anyone considered the idea that much as we value our freedom, it
is actually a burden? If the house-elves were freed, they would have
to do what most adult humans, Muggles or not, have to do: Find a job
(a skill they've never been taught) and earn a living. Freedom for
them (even for Dobby, who wanted it) amounts to being fired. They're
jobless and they're disgraced. For the Hogwarts house-elves it
probably wouldn't matter much as they'd just apply for their old jobs
again (after negotiating for *lower* wages and *fewer* holidays as
Dobby did). Freed house-elfs in general would probably do the same
thing if they could--take back the old, familiar duties, just as many
former household slaves did after the American Civil War. Those who
had been treated badly would probably choose to leave the family home
(in violation of house-elf tradition), but where would they go? At
least as slaves they had a permanent job, food enough to keep them
alive, and a roof over their heads. But imagine a horde of homeless,
unemployed house-elves freed by the WW equivalent of the Emancipation
Proclamation--the consequence if a program like S.P.E.W. were ever put
into operation. (I'm not advocating slavery, but I'm all too familiar
with the burdens of job-seeking and earning a living.)

<snip>
> 3. What happened in the forest to make the Thestral fly 
out of it? Is this just something Harry didn't notice 
 before, because he couldn't see them- or was there 
 something more sinister happening?

>Dudemom_2000:
> I think this is just another reminder of how strange and alive the 
> Forbidden Forest is. It also may be something as simple as whomever 
> is taking care of Hagrid's creatures is also feeding the Thestrals. 
> Also I think Harry simply hadn't noticed the Thestrals before this.

Carol:
I was thinking that Thestral flying out of the forest might be the
first sign of Grawp's arrival, but it seems to be a few chapters too
early. But who *is* taking care of Hagrid's creatures? Professor
Grubbly-Plank? It doesn't seem to be HRH. And I think you're right
that the winged horses are introduced at that point (and reintroduced
in detail in "The Eye of the Snake") so they won't seem like a deus ex
machina in "Fight and Flight."
  
Carol




From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Wed Mar 17 00:18:13 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 00:18:13 -0000
Subject: Confusing and Befuddlement Draughts
In-Reply-To: <c37klt+7kue@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c385g5+f6gp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93159

> Alshain:
> > I disagree with the theory that Kreacher is slipping Sirius 
> > Befuddlement Draughts. 
> <snip>
> > So in short, I don't think Sirius's hotheadedness is magically 
> > induced, just plain frustration with a horrible situation he 
can't 
> > escape. Harry's thoughts when taken in context are the kind of 
> > freewheeling associations your brain comes up with before falling 
> > asleep. 
> 
> 
> I think JKR emphasised the paragraph about confusing and 
befuddlement 
> draughts way to much to be just freewheeling associations - it was 
> repeated over and over- and then, after Harry falls asleep reading 
> this paragraph, what wakes him up but a house elf!  Dobby is there 
> bringing Hedwig back to him.  
> 
> And the way Sirius' mood coincided with Kreacher's absence/presence 
> is too much too ignore.  It's clear that house-elves can *stretch* 
> the rules a bit when they really want to.  Maybe Kreacher just left 
> the herbs used for these draughts lying around the house or 
something 
> and they had a similar effect.  
> 
> How else do you explain Sirius' seriously altered mood and out of 
> character behavior in OoTP?
> 
> I respectfully disagree--there's just too much to suggest something 
> like this was going on...
> 
> Jenjar


Sue's two cents:
This is a very interesting argument.  I  would also add that we know 
from CoS that Malfoy keeps a few "embarassing" items in his "manor". 
We know from what DD said that Kreacher had been taking orders from 
two owners for months and that he left Grimmauld place at Christmas.  
What if he left before that?  He did not respond when called before 
Christmas IIRC.  Interesting, maybe it's in the water at Grimauld 
Place and Neri's theory about how to take over the WW in three weeks 
has merrit after all!




From peckham at cyberramp.net  Wed Mar 17 00:37:08 2004
From: peckham at cyberramp.net (luna_loco)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 00:37:08 -0000
Subject: All Things Green II
In-Reply-To: <c37fbo+hfet@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c386jk+32r3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93160

Page 49 US Edition:

"-- Emmeline Vance" -- a stateley looking witch in an emerald-green
swahl inclined on her head -- "Sturgis Podmore" -- a square-jawed
wizard with thick, straw-colored hair winked -- "and Hestia Jones."

Page 470 US Edition:

The instrument tinkled into life at once with rhythmic linking noises.
 Tiny puffs of pale green smoke issued from the minuscule silver tube
at the top.

Page 484 US Edition:

Witches and wizards in lime-green robes were walking up and down the
rows, asking questoins and making notes on clipboards like Umbridge's.

Allen
(Does my Mensa membership place me in Ravenclaw?)




From rayheuer3 at aol.com  Wed Mar 17 00:39:50 2004
From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 19:39:50 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape the Gryffindor or Ravenclaw?!
Message-ID: <1e2.1b6b3077.2d88f856@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93161

snapesmate at hotmail.com writes:

> I do not think one would have to have been in a
> particular house to be head of that house as a staff member.

As I understand it (never having gone to a British "public" school),
great weight is given to House loyalty.  While there may not be
anything actually written down, I would think it inconceivable that
someone become Master of a House he/she did not belong to 
when at school.

  --  Ray


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 17 01:36:18 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 01:36:18 -0000
Subject: Bellatrix: Astronomical and astrological properties
In-Reply-To: <c35fa7+gqlp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c38a2i+bv8i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93162

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "alshainofthenorth"
<alshainofthenorth at y...> wrote:
> Since Carol asked and others might be interested as well, I picked 
> the Internet and here's what I came up with. Credit where credit is 
> due, first, here are the sources:
> Prof. Emeritus Jim Kaler has a great website on astronomy at
> http://www.astro.uiuc.edu/~kaler/sow/
> Anne Wright's site has to be the best on fixed star astrology I've 
> seen. Bookmark it. http://www.winshop.com.au/annew/
> 
> Some basic astronomy first: Bellatrix (AKA the Amazon Star) is a blue-
> white giant star in the constellation Orion, with the apparent 
> magnitude of 1.63, placing it as the twenty-fifth brightest of the 
> fixed stars. Its distance from the Earth is 240 light years, much 
> closer than the rest of the stars in the constellation.  
> 
> I've managed to trace the name Bellatrix (which indeed means female 
> warrior) as far as the Alfonsine Tables of Toledo (compiled in the 
> thirteenth century), where it is a translation of Arab Al Najid, `the 
> conqueror'.
> 
> Astrological properties: Ptolemy said the star is similar to Mars and 
> Mercurius and can give great civil or military honor. Also danger of 
> sudden dishonor, renown, wealth, eminent friends and liability to 
> accidents causing blindness and ruin. In a woman's horoscope, it 
> makes her loquacious and shrewish, and gives a high-pitched, hard and 
> sharp voice (though other astrologers considered it a lucky star for 
> women.)
> 
> Later astrologers have connected Bellatrix with strong will, strong 
> passions, fighting spirit and courage, but also a tendency towards 
> hatred, fanatism and recklessness, and also violent death. It might 
> create some interesting theories about Bellatrix and Rudolphus that 
> the Larousse Encyclopedia of Astrology connects the star with 
> marriage for money or honour followed by reversed fortunes.
> 
> Hope something of this is of general interest.
> 
> Alshain (has so little faith in astrology that couldn't move a speck 
> of dust)


Thanks very much. I think JKR's reasons for choosing the name
Bellatrix are pretty self-explanatory, but the (supposed) properties
of the star and its associations with specific character traits may
also prove important.

I don't have much to add except that I checked the associations with
death for Sirius, Regulus, and Bellatrix on Anne Wright's page and
some of them seem fitting. Regulus in most positions seems to indicate
a long life and natural death, but in association with Neptune, it
indicates death by accident or assassination. Sirius is generally
associated with a famous death (oops) but in association with Uranus
indicates a sudden death, and, in association with the moon, death by
wild beast or soldiers (does a woman warrior count?). Bellatrix in
association with the sun indicates a violent death, and, in
association with Neptune, many narrow escapes followed by a violent
death. (Sounds like Bellatrix will receive her just deserts.) And
Alfard, the uncle who willed his money to Sirius and lost his place on
the family tapestry by doing so, turns out also to be a star (you may
have known but I didn't) is generally associated with death by poison
or suffocation and in specific positions, death by drowning or a
public death caused by secret enemies. (Moral: Don't name your kid
Alfard.) The deaths by poison or water shouldn't be surprising
considering that Alfard is in the constellation Hydra, the water snake.)
 
http://www.winshop.com.au/annew/DEATH1.html
http://www.winshop.com.au/annew/DEATH2.html

Anyway, despite being a complete sceptic concerning astrology, I
thought all this was interesting in relation to the Black family. 

Oh, and watch out for Professor Sinistra (the feminine of "sinister")
and yet another star, whose general influence "gives an immoral, mean
and slovenly nature"  

http://www.winshop.com.au/annew/alphabet1.htm

I had fun with this one. Thanks. (I carefully avoided looking at the
properties associated with Alshain!)

Carol




From erinellii at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 17 01:40:13 2004
From: erinellii at yahoo.com (Erin)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 01:40:13 -0000
Subject: How can LV win the war in three weeks
In-Reply-To: <c35i36+ib6b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c38a9t+bumn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93163

Though I love the idea of the Imperius virus (extremely scary), I 
don't believe it would work.  That you can just give someone orders 
and let them go is not how I see the curse working in the books.  

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GoF, American 1st ed. Ch. 14, pgs. 212-213


Moody reached into the jar, caught one of the spiders, and held it in 
the palm of his hand so that they could all see it.  He then pointed 
his wand at it and muttered, "Imperio!"

The spider leapt from Moody's hand on a fine thread of silk and began 
to swing backward and forward as though on a trapeze.  It stretched 
out its legs rigidly, then did a back flip, breaking the thread and 
landing on the desk, where it began to cartwheel in circles.  Moody 
jerked his wand, and the spider went into what was unmistakeably a 
tap dance.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


All right.  The thing is, we don't see Moody give verbal orders for 
any of the tricks the spider performed.  And it's a sure thing the 
spider didn't come up with them on its own.  

So Moody must be maintaining a mental link with the spider.  This is 
how I believe the Imperius curse works.  It allows for mind control, 
and verbal commands are only for greater emphasis.   

Therefore, Krum under the Imperius curse can be forced to crucio 
someone, but would not be up to taking over someone else's mind and 
controlling it for long periods of time.  I also think that it would 
be very difficult for a single wizard to have multiple other wizards 
under Imperius simultaneously.  I don't know what the limit is, but I 
know there is one.


Erin





From technomad at intergate.com  Tue Mar 16 20:15:08 2004
From: technomad at intergate.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 14:15:08 -0600
Subject: Thoughts about the Dursleys
Message-ID: <014a01c40bc2$0810dba0$e8420043@intergate.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93164

I'm not sure how big Little Whinging is, but unlike JKR Her Very Ownself
(and, I think, unlike a lot of listees) I'm a lifelong resident of a small
town myself, and I think that the Dursleys' behavior is about the last thing
they'd do if, as repeatedly stated, their goal is respectability and Little
Whinging is small-to-smallish.

In a town like that, the parents generally know which kid goes with which
household, and they would notice Harry always wearing crappy clothes and
sellotaped glasses.  Also, I can't imagine that Dudley's gang _only_ bullies
Harry---and some of their other victims might well report at home just what
goes on at school.  Not to mention, the teachers probably live there too,
poor wretches, and they might well talk about what goes on in school.  When
I was Harry's age, the teachers _knew_ which kids were bullies and
troublemakers, even if they couldn't sanction the little bas...er, little
bundles from heaven.

I would not be surprised to find out that the Dursleys' quest for Utter
Respectability has been sabotaged, at least in part, by the very fact that
Harry goes about looking like such a ragbag---and by Dudley's lifelong quest
to be the most obnoxious, spoiled bully that he can possibly be.

If Utter Respectability was my goal, one way I'd pursue it would be by
taking conspicuously good care of any children unfortunate enough to be in
my care, and by making durn sure that those children _looked_
well-cared-for...sleek, well-turned-out, healthy, happy, etc.




From melclaros at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 17 02:02:50 2004
From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 02:02:50 -0000
Subject: Snape and the MOM
In-Reply-To: <c380fu+lv5v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c38bka+ibic@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93165

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" >


 >>Susan:
> How do we know that, Carol?  Didn't DD tell Harry at the end of 
> OoP that Order members have "more reliable means of 
> communication" than fireplaces?  He didn't explain what those 
> means are but left it open for a futute revelation.  



Mel:
He did not explain, nor do I think he will. I think the instrument 
with the snake heads that he "spoke to" is a hint, but that may be 
as close as we get. HOW the order communicates is not particularly 
important. It's going to be interesting if we're ever let in on the 
secrets, but as we the readers all we really need is to believe that 
so-and-so contacted such-and-such.




> >Carol: 
 I'm still convinced, BTW, that Snape's 
> primary means of communication with LV and the DEs is some sort of 
> arrangement with Malfoy. If there were some sort of instrument in 
> his office that he uses, wouldn't Crouch Jr. have found it in his 
> search?

Mel:
I lean in this direction as well, many don't. Many think, and I can 
understand it certainly, that this seems to be rather soft for 
Snape. They'd rather see him striding back and forth bold as you 
please between Voldy and DD. Maybe, but I really think that's just 
too simple for Snape. For a few reasons. 
One, it's just plain easier to use Malfoy who is nothing more than a 
sycophant and would be quite easy to 'trick' into spilling more 
beans than he should. 
It doesn't require nearly the amount of Occlumency a direct meeting 
with Voldy would. 
It's a LOT safer, just in case Vodly gets a wild hair and decided 
to "test" Snape's loyalty--he's a Slytherin--he'll keep himself out 
of crucio range if at all plausible I'm sure. 
It's also a good excuse if something goes wrong. Never underestimate 
the powere of blaming the middleaman.



> > 
> > Susan:
> > I absolutely do not agree.  The point I was trying to make is 
that I 
> > believe adult wizards--particularly those who have advanced 
skills--> > know about additional means of communication beyond 
those available > > to Hogwarts students.  If the Order members have 
**as-yet-undescribed- by-DD** means of quick, reliable 
communication, why would it be so > hard to believe that Voldy and 
his followers have quick, reliable  means of communications 
themselves?  (Isn't the Dark Mark a pretty 
> > quick, reliable means of communicating *something*?) 


Mel:
The Dark Mark is a summoning tool. Plain and simple. The DE's are 
not going around sending messages back and forth by talking into 
their sleeves.


Carol:
> Also, if Snape had a safe, easy, and reliable means of 
communicating
> with Voldemort, why didn't he use it in GoF to save himself from 
being
> considered AWOL in the graveyard? 



Mel:
Well I agree with you it's because there isn't one, but really it's 
because if he did, that plot twist would have been revealed way too 
soon.



Mel




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 17 02:21:32 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 02:21:32 -0000
Subject: On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
In-Reply-To: <c35o9t+45hg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c38cnd+parq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93166

Pippin: 
>  <snip> Where else would Harry have been safe? With Dumbledore? 
> Hardly--even with  a wand to defend himself, Harry has just 
> barely survived his five years at school. Dumbledore has 
> managed to rescue him only with surprise on his side.
> 
> Dumbledore could have placed Harry with a wonderful family, 
> and it  would have lasted until Bella or her like caught up with 
> them. Then Harry would have lost his family *again.*  
> 
> In my view the Dursleys aren't so much immoral as stupid, 
> ignorant and locked in a destructive family dynamic. The sad 
> thing is that Harry would have been just as bad off if the 
> Dursleys had loved him. They'd have turned him into another 
> Dudders, I'm afraid. 


Exactly! What wizarding family wouldn't have been thrilled to raise
the infant everyone regarded as a hero, and how could they have kept
it quiet, even if they resisted the impulse to brag about it? Harry's
whereabouts would have been known and his chances for survival would
have been slim (assuming that the scar protects him from Voldemort
and/or Avada Kedavra, but not from death from other causes). And why
put a wizarding family at risk? The only safe place was outside the
WW, where Harry himself wouldn't know he was a wizard.

Setting aside the crucial question of survival, I also happen to think
that it was good for Harry not to grow up as "a pampered little
prince" (Dumbledore's phrase) seeing himself as a hero for an action
(or reaction) that was not even in his control (his own survival and
the rebounding of the curse onto Voldemort). "Famous before he can
walk and talk! Famous for something he can't even remember!" as DD
says (SS 13). Much better that he make a few real friends by his own
effort at Hogwarts than come to school with a ready-made fan club
(like Krum's or Cedric's--or James's). He is emphatically *not* the
popular, autograph-giving celebrity that Lockhart imagines him to be,
nor is he the arrogant egotist his father was, and which he could
easily have been with better cause. And that, IMO, is all to the good.

Carol, who expects that no one will agree with her second point but is
pretty sure that it represents JKR's own view 




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 17 02:27:38 2004
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 02:27:38 -0000
Subject: On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
In-Reply-To: <c36fq2+n7a0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c38d2q+e63d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93167

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Doriane" <delwynmarch at y...> 
wrote:
> 
> Del answers :
> 
> Aha ! I completely agree with you, and I repeat what I said in 
> another post : WHY didn't anyone do anything to stop their abusing 
> Harry ? Harry was going to school with unfitting clothes and broken 
> glasses, he was being chased and bullied by Dudley and his gang 
> right in the school and in the street, he must have acted in social 
> situations in a way that screamed "abused kid", he was left in a 
> tree for *hours* with a dog barking at him, etc... And yet we are 
> never told that anyone reported anything, that the social services 
> came to visit, that any teacher had a chat with the Dursleys, that 
> Dumbledore or anyone else came to visit them and check on Harry 
> (even though we know the WW had a way of knowing anything and 
> everything they needed to about Harry, through Mrs Figg), or 
> *anything* !!
> 
> The Dursleys don't share our moral standards to start with, but 
> noone in authority tried to enforce it on them either. Nobody 
> actually even tried to enforce the LAW, let alone any moral code, 
on 
> them...
> 
> Del


Erm... Yes, nobody reported anything to authorities ever. If other 
people are guilty too, it does not decrease Dursleys' guilt at all.

By the way, allow me to disagree with you very strongly on your 
suggestion that we don't share same moral standards. Yes, there are 
differences from culture to culture, but there are some moral maxims, 
which all western societies enforce with the law and some common 
world views. They do, honestly. :o)

The best example will be "don't kill" of course.

I came to live in America from the other side of the world and 
imagine my surprise, when I found out that my morals have a lot in 
common with the american morality.


Alla




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 17 02:41:48 2004
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 02:41:48 -0000
Subject: On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
In-Reply-To: <c37d9m+2ap6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c38dtc+a09a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93168

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" <annemehr at y...> 
wrote:
> > 
> And yes, there are thousands of "moral codes," but they are in
> surprising agreement, and where they disagree is very often on what
> aspects of morality to emphasise over others.  What they all do,
> though, is more or less successfully approach absolute moral truth. 
> Tolerance for differing moral codes has to be moderated by justice:
> just as the world rejected South Africa's racist system and forced
> change, so we can reject the Dursleys' treatment of Harry as wrong.
>

Yes, yes, many times yes. Thank you. I hope elfs will forgive my 
little outbirst.

> Annemehr:
> What the Dursleys should do is try to see the difference between 
right
> and wrong, make a reasonable attempt to do what is right, and treat
> Harry accordingly.
> 
> Why bring Dumbeldore into it?  Whether DD was just a doddering old
> fool who assumed the Dursleys would want to care for their nephew 
or a
> Machiavellian who cared nothing about the abuse he foresaw, that has
> nothing to do with Vernon and Petunia's guilt.  Culpability is not
> like a pie where, if you assign a bigger portion to DD you're taking
> away from the Dursleys.


Yes, again. Dumbledore's morals are definitely a suspect after OoP, 
it does not mean that Dursleys' morals become less suspect due to 
this fact. We do think along the same line.

I do think though that Petunia still has a chance at redemption. Her 
descriptions definitely became less caricature na smore realistic in 
OoP ("And all of the sudden, for the very first time in his 
life,Harry fully appreciated that Aunt Petunia was his mother's 
sister" OoP, p.38). I think that very is a small chance that Harry 
and petunia will reach an understanding.


Alla
 





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 17 02:59:37 2004
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 02:59:37 -0000
Subject: Snape the Gryffindor or Ravenclaw?!
In-Reply-To: <c384sn+a8su@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c38eup+9fq3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93169

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snapesmate" <snapesmate at h...> 
wrote:
> Is there actually any canon stating Snape was in Slytherin? I do not
> have my books handy. I know Sirius said that Snape hung out with an
> older group of Slytherins, but is there actually CANON stating Snape
> was IN Slytherin? I do not think one would have to have been in a
> particular house to be head of that house as a staff member. In know
> JKR was asked about the house affiliation of MWPP, but what about
> Snape?
> 
> Lynnette, who thinks Snape IS a good guy, even if he is NOT a nice
> guy!
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterverseofadults


No, besides that quote I can't think of any canon stating for a fact 
that Snape was a Slytherin. I was a big fan of the theory that either 
Sirius was a Slytherin or Snape was a Gryffindor (Those two make a 
very nice couple, IMO :o))

Anyway, since JKR shot down the theory that Marauders were in 
different houses, I still think that Snape as a Gryffindor is a 
possibility.

It could be a nice surprise JKR will threw at Harry at the end.


Alla




From peckham at cyberramp.net  Wed Mar 17 03:02:41 2004
From: peckham at cyberramp.net (luna_loco)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 03:02:41 -0000
Subject: All Things Green II
In-Reply-To: <c37fbo+hfet@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c38f4h+jbmv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93170

Page 472 (US)
Dumbledore marched over to another portrait, this time of a
clever-looking wizard with a pointed beard, who had been painted
wearing the Slytherin colors of green and silver and was apparently
sleeping so deeply that he could not hear Dumbledore's voice when he
attempted to rouse him.

Page 771-772 (US)
The place was quite empty except for a few desks and, in the very
middle of the room, an enormous glass tank of deep-green water, big
enough for all of them to swim in, which contained a number of pearly
white objects that were drifting around lazily in the liquid.

Page 822 (US)
The empty fireplace burst into emarld-green flame, making Harry leap
away from the door, staring at the man spinning inside the grate.

And to make up for the repeat in my last post, Page 820 (US)
There was a cool line of pale green along the horizon: Dawn was
approaching.

Allen




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Wed Mar 17 03:14:30 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 03:14:30 -0000
Subject: On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
In-Reply-To: <c35gg6+5ut0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c38fqm+mblq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93171

Kneasy:
> > > "Ah," you say, "but that means that the Dursleys should treat 
> > > Harry by the code prevailing."
<snip>
> > > If anyone's morals are  at fault it's DD's. 
<monstrously big snip>

Tcy:
> I'm not sure about Puppetmaster!Dumbledore - but I have to agree 
> with Kneasy (groan) on this point.  

Susan:
I have to admit that I have no reason for including this segment of 
the post except that Tcy cracked me up with it. ;-)
*************

Susan's previous post:
> If the Dursleys objected that much to having Harry dropped on 
> their doorstep, if they where determined that to take him in would 
> mean they would mistreat & abuse him, then why did they not pass 
> on the "offer"?  Why *not* enroll him in an orphanage or turn him 
> over to foster care?  If they were frightened of DD--if they 
> feared he was watching them closely & evaluating their "parenting" 
> skills--they'd never have treated Harry as they did.  So why 
> didn't they just say, "No way, Jose?"  

Tcy:
> How can we judge the Dursley's decision to take Harry if we don't 
> know the circumstances under which they made this decision?  Judge 
> away on how they have treated Harry - but until we know what that 
> letter from Dumbledore contained, it seems silly to say that they 
> should have just passed on the offer.  Perhaps there was no 
> offer. Perhaps it was an ultimatum. <snip> Too many unknowns to 
> judge them on this one.

Susan again:
Fair enough on your comment about the Dursleys, Tcy.  There probably 
*is* too little information on DD's thoughts, what the note 
contained, what the Dursleys found out, etc.  I think I'm just 
really struggling with WHY the Dursleys seem to not be worried about 
being caught or punished for their treatment of Harry.  Something 
bugs me about that.  That if they feel they can treat him any old 
way they like, I wonder what compelled them to take him in?  If 
they're not afraid of repercussions for their treatment of Harry, 
why were they scared into taking him?  Or do people think it was 
**something other than fear** that caused them to take him in???

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Wed Mar 17 03:39:07 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 03:39:07 -0000
Subject: Snape the Gryffindor or Ravenclaw?!
In-Reply-To: <c384sn+a8su@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c38h8r+cr2e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93172

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snapesmate" <snapesmate at h...> 
wrote:
> Is there actually any canon stating Snape was in Slytherin? I do 
not
> have my books handy. I know Sirius said that Snape hung out with an
> older group of Slytherins, but is there actually CANON stating 
Snape
> was IN Slytherin? I do not think one would have to have been in a
> particular house to be head of that house as a staff member. In 
know
> JKR was asked about the house affiliation of MWPP, but what about
> Snape?
> 


Potioncat:
I think I have the quote you're looking for. GoF, US paperback p531 
Padfoot Returns:
Sirius is speaking, "Snape knew more curses when he arrived at 
school than half the kids in seventh year, and he was part of a gang 
of Slytherins who nearly all turned out to be Death Eaters."

I know our group can take that about 7 different ways, but it really 
sounds to me like Severus was in Slytherin.  

Sirius goes on to list 4 male names and Bellatrix as being in this 
gang.  So it could be that Rosier, Wilkes, the married Lestranges, 
Avery and Snape were in the same year in Slytherin.  He lists the 
others as having been found to be DE's (except for Avery who had 
claimed the Imperius curse and gone free) but goes on to say, "But 
as far as I know, Snape was never even accused of being a DE--not 
that that means much...."

As to being Head of House, I can't imagine your house as a student 
would be an important consideration for Head of House.  What if a 
professor was up for head and the available slot wasn't from his old 
house?  Or if the professor came from one of the other schools?  
It's my pet theory that Sprout was a Slytherin, but I don't have any 
canon for it.

Hope the quote helps.
Potioncat





From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Wed Mar 17 03:43:00 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 03:43:00 -0000
Subject: On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
In-Reply-To: <c36edd+r28a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c38hg4+t4h4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93173

Siriusly Snapey Susan wrote :
> > You brought up that some would be sure to argue the Dursleys 
> > should abide by the prevailing code of British society.  I 
> > personally think they *should* be held to that code, yes,
 
Del answers :
> But nobody did it. Neither Muggle nor Wizard. Nobody cared. The 
> Dursleys are definitely not the only ones responsible for the way 
> Harry was treated. Harry's teachers, for example, should have 
> talked to the Child Welfare or whatever it's called in Britain. \
> But they didn't. Why do we expect the Dursleys to obey our moral 
> code, when nobody seems concerned that they don't ?
 
Susan:
I hesitated to reply to this because I suspect we might end up back 
with the "there are no absolute moral codes" business again, 
but....  

**If** school personnel suspected abuse--and if the laws in Britain 
are similar to those in the U.S., where I was a public school 
teacher--then yes, someone *should* have reported & investigated it. 
But I believe that the types of behavior the Dursleys exhibited 
towards Harry which I'd consider abusive are likely things about 
which school officials might be unaware.  WHO there would KNOW that 
Harry lived in & was sometimes locked into a cupboard under the 
stairs, for instance?  As best I can recall, the Dursleys' nasty 
actions weren't the types of behaviors which attracted attention of 
the outside world.  Appearances, you know.

And **regardless** of that, I do NOT believe that one party is 
absolved of guilt simply because another party or parties did not 
fulfill their moral or legal responsibilities. The fact that no one 
else stepped in doesn't mean that the Dursleys are relieved of any 
responsibility for their own moral or immoral behavior!  To me, 
arguing that is like saying, "Well, that store clerk didn't care 
when those three guys stole 10 cartons of cigarettes, so it's okay 
if I steal some, too."  

In this scenario of additional guilt, I think I'd side w/ Kneasy in 
blaming **DD** more than anyone else for a failure to step in.  If 
he knows as much as he seems to know about what's happening w/ 
Harry, then his inaction should be called into question.  Still, 
those Dursleys!!  Pippin may be right that they're stupid, but I 
still think they're immoral, too. :-)

Siriusly Snapey Susan







From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Wed Mar 17 03:49:58 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 03:49:58 -0000
Subject: On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
In-Reply-To: <c36f1i+e432@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c38ht6+rd75@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93174

Siriusly Snapey Susan said :
> > Playing devil's advocate a bit here....  You have no right to 
> > force moral standards on the Dursleys?  Why not?  Are there no 
> > universal moral standards for treatment of others?  I find that 
> > unpalatable.  Civilization depends upon certain mores and 
> > legalized moralities, does it not?  
> 
Del answers :
> Which civilization ? Every society has its own moral standards, 
> upon which every member of this society doesn't even necessarily 
> agree. Your society and my society have different standards (I'm 
> French, you must be American or British, right ? So there's at 
> least one BIG recent example when our national moral codes 
> clashed...), and maybe we don't even agree with all of them.
> So WHICH standards should we enforce on others, and based on 
> what ? 
> Usually, it's simply the stronger that enforces its morals on the 
> weaker. 

Susan again now:

Del, I actually addressed this a bit back in post 93051, when I said 
this:

<<<A universal entire moral codebook?
You're right, of course. We could look at typical treatment of
children, the roles of women, the importance of/rights of animals,
etc., and they would vary from culture to culture. But I do think
subsumed w/in those various codebooks there are *some* fairly
universal morals [mores and/or laws against murder and theft are
typically ones, are they not?].>>>

I *do* believe there are *some* elements which, if not absolutely 
universal, come pretty damn close.  Murder, abuse of children, 
slavery, protection of private property--these are things upon which 
most societies agree.  We don't have to agree on the nitty-gritty of 
every moral standard to agree that some reasonable degree of care 
for a child is expected, as well as that abuse should NOT happen.  
Do you really disagree with that??

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Wed Mar 17 04:18:05 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 04:18:05 -0000
Subject: Snape and the MOM
In-Reply-To: <c38bka+ibic@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c38jht+2mbk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93175

Susan:
> > > I absolutely do not agree.  The point I was trying to make is 
> > > that I believe adult wizards--particularly those who have 
> > > advanced skills--know about additional means of communication 
> > > beyond those available to Hogwarts students.  If the Order 
> > > members have **as-yet-undescribed- by-DD** means of quick, 
> > > reliable communication, why would it be so hard to believe 
> > > that Voldy and his followers have quick, reliable  means of 
> > > communications themselves?  (Isn't the Dark Mark a pretty 
> > > quick, reliable means of communicating *something*?) 

 
Mel:
> The Dark Mark is a summoning tool. Plain and simple. The DE's are 
> not going around sending messages back and forth by talking into 
> their sleeves.


Susan:
I must not be doing a very good job of expressing myself. [Sigh.]  I 
was NOT trying to argue that the Dark Mark *is* the way I believe 
Snape & Voldy communicate.  Not at all.  My point was that the Dark 
Mark itself is **a** means of quick communication.  If that exists, 
how do we know there aren't **other** means of quick communication 
that are more fully communicative?  I believe there's some way in 
which DD can use Fawkes.  Perhaps Voldy has some quick means--
instrument, animal, bird, who knows what--to communicate, too.  No, 
I did *not* think they were talking into their sleeves.  Too James 
Bondish for our JKR! :-)

Siriusly Snapey Susan






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 17 04:45:25 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 04:45:25 -0000
Subject: Confusing and Befuddlement Draughts
In-Reply-To: <c373nt+10cao@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c38l55+daho@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93176

> anne (Silverthorne) wrote: I have to agree with Alshain here. We 
> tend to forget that Sirius had a few very predominant traits (ones 
> that proved out in the past as well as the present--and I doubt he 
> was being 'poisoned' at school. 
> >snip<
> 
> Potioncat:
<snip>
> I am not a Sirius fan.  In fact, I didn't like him at all in OoP and 
> wasn't upset that he was the one who died. <snip>
> 
> So it is very surprising to me to re-discover the friendly, likable 
> Sirius from GoF. In fact one of the differences that I see is that 
> he frequently warns Harry to be careful and scolds him for taking 
> risks in GoF.  In OoP as I recall, he actually taunts him for not 
> taking risks! I'll be re-reading OoP with an eye for other 
> differences after I finish GoF.
> 
> Another point is that we read often about potion making.  We, Harry, 
> and Neville hear in painful detail what was done wrong in class or 
> what a potion could do.  
> 
> In GoF, Snape goes to great lengths to determine if Harry is 
> stealing potion supplies from his office. It seemed odd to us as 
> readers at the time because the polyjuice episode had happened so 
> long ago. It becomes very important later in GoF when we find out 
> that Crouch/Moody was stealing polyjuice ingredients. It would make 
> sense, as a previous post said, that if so much was written about 
> befuddlement draughts in OoP, we would see them used in the plot.
> 
> On the other hand, I find it difficult to work out how Kreacher 
> could be the one poisoning Sirius unless he is taking instructions 
> from someone he considers a more rightful master.  Which leaves us, 
> if this is correct, with  the question "Who poisoned Sirius?"
> 
> Potioncat


I agree with Anne that Sirius's basic personality was the chief source
of his "poisoned" mental state, combined with a constantly escalating
anger and depression fueled by the contrast between a cheerful
Christmas surrounded by friends and the approaching time when he'd be
alone again with Kreacher, Buckbeak (another wanted fugitive who
shared his imprisonment), and his mother's screeching portrait. If
anything was needed to further darken his mood and cloud his thinking
(beyond his loss of Harry's companionship, the memory of Azkaban, and
the resentment of Snape's freedom in contrast with his entrapment), it
was the house itself: Jars of blood, cloaks that try to suffocate
people, heads of Kreacher-like house-elfs decorating the hallway--all
the signs of the Dark Wizard background that he had tried to leave and
now could not escape. A Grim Old Place, all right--and exactly the
wrong place for a reckless and hot-tempered man like Sirius to regain
a firm grip on sanity.

Carol




From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Wed Mar 17 05:15:41 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 05:15:41 -0000
Subject: Snape and the MOM
In-Reply-To: <c38jht+2mbk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c38mtt+gk79@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93177

Ahh Susan...I feel your pain here, I've read all of these posts and I 
understood what you were saying the very first time (I sware :)).  I 
agree with you, if the Order communicate instantaneously, so do the 
DE's!  I do have a question for you though, do you think Snape is in 
contact with Voldemort directly, or do you think he is only in 
contact with Malfoy?

Sue

 Susan:
> I must not be doing a very good job of expressing myself. [Sigh.]  
I 
> was NOT trying to argue that the Dark Mark *is* the way I believe 
> Snape & Voldy communicate.  Not at all.  My point was that the Dark 
> Mark itself is **a** means of quick communication.  If that exists, 
> how do we know there aren't **other** means of quick communication 
> that are more fully communicative?  I believe there's some way in 
> which DD can use Fawkes.  Perhaps Voldy has some quick means--
> instrument, animal, bird, who knows what--to communicate, too.  No, 
> I did *not* think they were talking into their sleeves.  Too James 
> Bondish for our JKR! :-)
> 
> Siriusly Snapey Susan




From jenjar2001 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 16 20:14:03 2004
From: jenjar2001 at yahoo.com (jenjar2001)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 20:14:03 -0000
Subject: Confusing and Befuddlement Draughts
In-Reply-To: <c373nt+10cao@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c37n6b+38te@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93178

> anne (Silverthorne) wrote: I have to agree with Alshain here. We 
> tend to forget that Sirius had a few very predominant traits (ones 
> that proved out in the past as well as the present--and I doubt he 
> was being 'poisoned' at school.
> 
> >snip<
> 
> Potioncat:

> On the other hand, I find it difficult to work out how Kreacher 
> could be the one poisoning Sirius unless he is taking instructions 
> from someone he considers a more rightful master.  Which leaves us, 
> if this is correct, with the question "Who poisoned Sirius?"

Potioncat, I really have to agree with you. Very good points.  I 
concede that someone besides Kreacher may have been doing the 
poisoning, but I still think it's possible that Kreacher did it.  As 
I stated in another post, House Elves seem to be able to stretch the 
rules a bit now and then.  

Jenjar






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 17 05:18:27 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 05:18:27 -0000
Subject: Why Petunia Agreed to keep Harry
In-Reply-To: <c37ogq+v1a4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c38n33+mtks@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93179

- 
> Kia wrote:
> I think the reason why Petunia let Harry stay, is simple blackmail 
> from Dumbledore. I am not entirely sure how Dumbldore could 
> blackmail Petunia in letter without Vernon realising it, but  I am 
> very sure that if Petunia or Dudley have magical talent, Petunia 
> would have zero interest in Vernon knowing about it.
<snip>


Like a number of other posters, I think the original letter informed
Petunia about the protective charm DD had placed on Harry as long as
he stayed at 4 Privet Drive. If Petunia knew that the protection given
to Harry extended to her and Dudley but not to Vernon (because he
doesn't share Harry's blood), she would have a reason to conceal the
full truth from Vernon without either blackmail or magical talent in
any Dursley being involved.
 
Carol





From a_b_desert_king at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 16 21:03:06 2004
From: a_b_desert_king at hotmail.com (a_b_desert_king)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 21:03:06 -0000
Subject: Snape and the MOM
In-Reply-To: <011501c40b04$ac746360$21d6f943@hppav>
Message-ID: <c37q2a+ip9r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93180

> >Heather says:
> 
> > Maybe when Sirius gave Harry the mirror, he not only was 
> > giving Harry a means to communicate with himself, but also all 
the other members of the Order.
>
Kimberly wrote:

> I'm just curious, do we know for a fact that Harry could 
communicate with the other members of the Order ?       Or are you 
suggesting if they had the other mirror, Harry could communicate 
with them ?     I just don't remember Sirius referencing anyone else 
when he handed the brown wrapped package to Harry.    My memory 
suggests that he simply told him (paraphrasing here) "you can use 
this anytime you want to get a hold of me".      Just curious.
> 
> Kimberly

Heather says:

No, I don't think we have any canon references to Harry being able 
to communicate with other members of the Order.  I was just 
expanding JKR's comment about the mirrors being important to suggest 
that maybe this is how the members of the Order communicate with 
each other.  If that was the case, then perhaps Harry has been able 
to communicate with them ever since he got the mirror, and he just 
didn't know about it.  It would go along with the "tell Harry only 
what Harry needs to know" attitude of the members. And we all know 
that Sirius thought Harry should have been told more than he has 
been (by his attitude after the Dementor attack when he wanted to 
tell Harry much more than anyone else thought was appropriate).  If 
mirror-communications is the case, it would make sense that Sirius 
gave Harry a mirror - after all, he thinks Harry should be better 
informed and he would be willing to push the issue.  

This idea was just a hypothesis about the Order's communication 
method which we (thus far) know nothing about - except that it is 
more secure and reliable than owls and floo powder.

Heather





From fredalss at ca.inter.net  Tue Mar 16 22:44:41 2004
From: fredalss at ca.inter.net (freda)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 17:44:41 -0500
Subject: Different moral standards
Message-ID: <a05210616bc7d32e13b99@[66.48.151.79]>

No: HPFGUIDX 93181

I think JKR is using Harry's time with the Dursley's as a character 
definition device similar to Dicken's, David Copperfield. He was 
orphaned his trials and tribulations as an orphan strengthened him. 
Like Harry, he did end up being reunited with family and finding his 
true place in society.
-- 
Freda





From tromeldov at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 16 22:14:37 2004
From: tromeldov at yahoo.com (tromeldov)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 22:14:37 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter joke
Message-ID: <c37u8d+25im@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93182

What did Hagrid's psychiatrist suggest to help Hagrid cope with his half-brother?

"tromeldov"





From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 17 02:20:26 2004
From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (fauntine_80)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 02:20:26 -0000
Subject: Order of The Phoenix-spoiler
In-Reply-To: <c363ra+78l5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c38cla+9n1s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93183

Jenjar:

> Then of course he falls through the veil.  Note that we don't know 
> what color the last jet of light was.  If it wasn't a green one 
> (killing curse) then Sirius *died* becuase he was knocked into the 
> veil, not because of a curse and this may not be a *real* death.  The 
> same rules of life and death may not apply if that's the case.  We'll 
> just have to wait and see.



I heard this from someone, who heard this from someone.  So, I don't 
know if it is really valid, but it might mean something if it is...

Supposedly, when JKR was writing OotP, she came out crying, and her 
husband asked her what was wrong and she said she "killed" one of the 
main characters.  Her husband said, 'Well, you don't have to kill 
them if you don't want to.' And she said it had to happen this way.

Now, I don't know if the above is true or not, but it makes a really 
interesting plot point if it is.  If JKR was upset about it enough to 
make her cry, he must have "really died."  But, we, again, don't know 
what exactly happened in his death.  And, we don't know if he can 
communicate with Harry ever again.  

Now, the reason I question the authenticity, is because there is a 
similar quote about Puccini when he was writing his last opera, 
Turandot.  He came out crying after he wrote the music where Liu 
dies.  So, who knows.  It could just be an uncanny coincidence that 
both JKR and Puccini had the same reaction to characters dying. 

"Mo"






From tipgardner at netscape.net  Wed Mar 17 02:24:15 2004
From: tipgardner at netscape.net (tipgardner)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 02:24:15 -0000
Subject: Sirius and Confusing and Befuddlement Draughts
In-Reply-To: <c380o7+kmhn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c38csf+uc89@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93184

> > JoAnna:
> > Good points, all.  It occured to me during PoA that there was one 
> > way Sirius could have easily proved his innocence:  all he had to 
> do was owl a letter to Dumbledore either explaining the situation 
 
Marianne:
> And why should Sirius have immediately trusted that a message to 
> Dumbledore would have led to a cozy chat where all could be explained?
> Dumbldedore knew where Sirius was for the last 12 years, yet we have 
> no evidence that he sought to question Sirius about what happened 
> with the Potters/Secret Keeper, etc. 

Tip replies:
Sirius needn't have put faith in Dumbledore suddenly believing him. 
Once he discovered Pettigrew at Hogwarts he could have sent an
anonymous note to Dumbledore telling him that the rat was an
unregistered animagus and that Dumbledore might want to discretely,
without warning Ron or the rat, see if the anonymous note were true. 
Then again, do we have any evidence that prisoners at Azkaban have
access to owls, parchment, quills and ink?

Tip





From ellyn337 at earthlink.net  Wed Mar 17 02:54:25 2004
From: ellyn337 at earthlink.net (mclellyn)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 02:54:25 -0000
Subject: Snapes punishing assignments are to help Harry?
Message-ID: <c38el1+87vh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93185

I was listening to OOTP in the background at work and the Moonstone 
essay hit me as something to research.  (Yes, I am one of those 
strange creatures who love to research.  Wish I could get a job doing 
it, but I digress).  I was researching it to support my Snape-put-a-
stopper-in-Harry's-death-by-Voldie's-AK-so-Harry's-fame-should-be-
Snape's-fame theory, but instead what I found is that I think Snape 
was trying to help Harry out.  In looking up the properties of 
moonstone there is a protective quality for travelers, but the 
property that jumped out at me is it is to help with EMOTIONAL 
BALANCE.   Well, if in any book Harry needed help with emotional 
balance it was this one.  So did Snape assign it to help Harry with 
his temper and troubles with Umbridge?

So now I'm wondering, has anyone looked into the past assignments by 
Snape to see if they would have helped Harry?  Let me know!

Gadfly McLellyn who thought Snape was in it for himself, but may have 
to seriously rethink this.  





From pt4ever at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 17 03:22:33 2004
From: pt4ever at yahoo.com (JoAnna)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 03:22:33 -0000
Subject: Sirius and Confusing and Befuddlement Draughts
In-Reply-To: <c380o7+kmhn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c38g9p+t219@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93186

>>>
Marianne:

And why should Sirius have immediately trusted that a message to
Dumbledore would have led to a cozy chat where all could be explained?
Dumbldedore knew where Sirius was for the last 12 years, yet we have
no evidence that he sought to question Sirius about what happened
with the Potters/Secret Keeper, etc. Dumbledore was the leader of
the Order the first time around, but apparently believed that one of
his soldiers was indeed guilty of horrible treachery and didn't seem
to have a problem with locking the guy away without benefit of a
trial.
>>>

JoAnna:

Dumbledore did not have all the facts.  He had no clue that MMWP were
Animagi or that an escape via transformation by Pettigrew was
possible.  He had no clue that Pettigrew was the Secret-Keeper.  He
had no reason to suspect Sirius innocence *until he was given all the
facts* by Harry and Hermione at the end of PoA.

IMO, all Sirius had to do was owl Dumbledore with the facts - "We were
unregistered Animagi - I was a dog; James, a stag; and Peter, a rat. 
If you don't believe me, ask Lupin.  Peter was Secret-Keeper, we
switched, he was working for Voldemort."  Dumbledore would certainly
have been able to at least verify that MMWP were unregistered Animagi
by talking with Lupin.  

It's a moot point, certainly.  But it shows how Harry is like Sirius
in that respect - neither of them really think their plans through
before implementing them, which sometimes leads to trouble.

I think that the main difference between GoF Sirius and OotP Sirius is
that GoF Sirius was *free* - he could come and go as he pleased, where
he pleased, when he pleased.  OotP Sirius was a prisoner in his own
home, an imprisonment which I'm sure reminded him of Azkaban.  Many
would become reckless and hot-tempered in that situation, though I'm
not discounting the possibility that a Bufuddlement Draught may have
been involved.

- JoAnna





From ekrbdg at msn.com  Wed Mar 17 04:54:54 2004
From: ekrbdg at msn.com (Kimberly)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 23:54:54 -0500
Subject: Voldemort and his wand question
Message-ID: <021201c40bdb$fe313e80$1fe4f943@hppav>

No: HPFGUIDX 93187

The text
(Voldemort speaking, GoF, ch. 33 pg. 653, US Edition)
"....I was ripped from my body, I was less than a spirit, less than the meanest ghost...but still, I was alive.  What I was, even I do not know... (skip some text)... Nevertheless, I was as powerless as the weakest creature alive, and without the means to help myself...for I had no body, and every spell that might helped me required the use of a wand....", etc.  

My question is this, during this time, where was his wand?  He makes reference to not being able to perform certain spells because he doesn't have his wand.  Where is it all the while when he is regaining strength and living only by inhabiting other people/animals?  Even at the end of SS, he is "weak as he has ever been".   That is a lot of years to be without his wand.   How does he get it back?   We know that he does because it is used in GoF to kill Cedric and then battle Harry.     Any speculation on this?      

If it's already been discussed, I apologize, just say so and I'll dig through the archives.    

Kimberly
 


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From ekrbdg at msn.com  Wed Mar 17 05:07:23 2004
From: ekrbdg at msn.com (Kimberly)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 00:07:23 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Petunia Agreed to keep Harry
References: <c37ogq+v1a4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <022801c40bdd$bcf0eb80$1fe4f943@hppav>

No: HPFGUIDX 93188

 

  >(Kimberly's comments)
  >I personally think that Petunia is quite aware of Voldemort and many of the
  >goings on of the WW. Harry, undeniably, has abilities that could defeat
  >Voldemort and much as Petunia would like not to have to have Harry at Privet
  >Drive, she knows in order for Harry to have the charm on him, he has to be
  >there. If she puts him out, the charm is broken and then Harry has far less a
  >chance of defeating Voldemort. She knows it's in the best interest not only
  >for the WW but for Muggles as well, that Voldemort be defeated. I think that
  >DD's letter to her probably reinforced that and reminded her of that. I can
  >imagine her thinking, "Okay, he can stay....but it's not because I 
  >want him here!".

  (Kia's comments)
  >I think, if Petunia would have known for sure that Harry would 
  >inherit his parents' magical talents and end up in the WW as its 
  >saviour, she wouldn't have been so surprised when the 
  >Hogwarts Letter finally came. 

   
  (Kimberly's comments)
  But it doesn't say that she was surprised.    What it says is "....not knowing he would be woken a few hours' time by Mrs. Dursley's scream as she opened the front door to put out the milk bottles,...."

  We don't know what caused her to react in such a way.   It may not have been surprise.   It very well could be the realization of what him being there meant.     1. Her sister was dead  2. She now had the additional responsibility of raising her nephew   3. Lord Voldemort was gaining power and stopping at nothing to get it.        

  I firmly believe she is quite educated about the WW.    I think it makes her extremely unnerved which is why she is SO intent on leading a good, orderly life and putting on a good impression.    It's almost as if she is over compensating for something, trying too hard to be perfect.    Reminds me of someone that has done something wrong and they suddenly become suspiciously cooperative or nice.   She has knowledge of the WW, much more than she lets on to Vernon, I'd bet my broom on it.    I think all of that knowledge and what Harry being on her doorstep meant is what made her scream.  

  Kimberly


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From falkelihu at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 17 05:44:43 2004
From: falkelihu at yahoo.com (Elihu Falk)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 21:44:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape the Gryffindor or Ravenclaw?!
In-Reply-To: <c38eup+9fq3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040317054443.11528.qmail@web61103.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93191


dumbledore11214 <dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com> wrote:
snapesmate:
Is there actually any canon stating Snape was in Slytherin? I do not have my books handy. I know Sirius said that Snape hung out with an older group of Slytherins, but is there actually CANON stating Snape was IN Slytherin? I do not think one would have to have been in a particular house to be head of that house as a staff member. In know JKR was asked about the house affiliation of MWPP, but what about Snape?

Alla:

No, besides that quote I can't think of any canon stating for a fact that Snape was a Slytherin. I was a big fan of the theory that either Sirius was a Slytherin or Snape was a Gryffindor (Those two make a very nice couple, IMO :o))

Anyway, since JKR shot down the theory that Marauders were in different houses, I still think that Snape as a Gryffindor is a possibility.

It could be a nice surprise JKR will throw at Harry at the end.

Elihu's answer:

As I've stated in message 91177, I think that MWPP were in Slytherin. I still believe this, and no number of times Rowling states otherwise matter to me. From my perspective, the interviews aren't as canon as the books; if the books say one thing, and Rowling says otherwise in an interview, the books are right.

 



Elihu
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From snapesmate at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 17 06:46:53 2004
From: snapesmate at hotmail.com (snapesmate)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 06:46:53 -0000
Subject: Snapes punishing assignments are to help Harry?
In-Reply-To: <c38el1+87vh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c38s8t+brms@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93192

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mclellyn" <ellyn337 at e...> 
wrote:
> I was listening to OOTP in the background at work and the Moonstone 
> essay hit me as something to research.  <snip> In looking up the 
properties of 
> moonstone there is a protective quality for travelers, but the 
> property that jumped out at me is it is to help with EMOTIONAL 
> BALANCE.   Well, if in any book Harry needed help with emotional 
> balance it was this one.  So did Snape assign it to help Harry with 
> his temper and troubles with Umbridge?
> 
> So now I'm wondering, has anyone looked into the past assignments 
by 
> Snape to see if they would have helped Harry?  Let me know!
> 
> Gadfly McLellyn who thought Snape was in it for himself, but may 
have to seriously rethink this.

JMHO, but Snape has ALWAYS been giving Harry vital lessons and/or 
help when seeming to be harrassing him.  Their first encounter in 
that first potions lesson for instance.  I'll bet Harry never forgets 
what a bezoar is or where it comes from.  Or, what the difference 
between monk's hood and wolfbane is?  Or what you get when you mix 
asveryl(sp?) and wormwood?  Someone else once pointed out that when 
Harry got frustrated because he wanted to get to the Headmaster's 
office, but didn't know the password, Snape didn't directly assist 
him (that would have been too kind and quite unusual for Snape ;-D), 
but got him so brassed off that he started shouting, thereby alerting 
Professor Dumbledore.
Lynnette, who thinks Snape IS a good guy, even if he is NOT a nice
guy!

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterverseofadults





From severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Mar 17 09:53:50 2004
From: severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk (severelysigune)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 09:53:50 -0000
Subject: "Snape's Job"
Message-ID: <c3977e+ebvj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93193

I am currently re-reading OoP, paying special attention to each and 
every move and word of the Potions Master, and was struck last night 
by one of the Occlumency scenes. It is in Chapter 26, Seen and 
Unforeseen, on p. 521 of the UK edition.

I quote:
<'That is just as well, Potter,' said Snape coldly, 'because you are 
neither special nor important, and it is not up to you to find out 
what the Dark lord is saying to his Death Eaters.'
'No - that's your job, isn't it?' Harry shot at him.
He had not meant to say it; it had burst out of him in temper. For a 
long moment they stared at each other, Harry convinced he had gone 
too far. But there was a curious, almost satisfied expression on 
Snape's face when he answered.
'Yes, Potter,' he said, his eyes glinting. 'That is my job. Now, if 
you are ready, we will start again.'>

What on earth is Snape so (almost) satisfied about? Snape being 
Snape, I suddenly started to wonder if he is pleased that Harry 
should think he is spying whereas in fact he isn't (?!) - but that 
does not seem to make much sense to me. And I find his suddenly 
glinting eyes quite alarming. Any theories? Please?

Yours severely,

Sigune
~ who shamelessly takes the opportunity to advertise her first short 
story, naturally about Severus S., at
www.thedarkarts.org/authors/sigune/RPS.html 




From patientx3 at aol.com  Wed Mar 17 10:03:03 2004
From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 10:03:03 -0000
Subject: Sirius and Confusing and Befuddlement Draughts
In-Reply-To: <c38g9p+t219@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c397on+ntq3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93194

JoAnna Wrote:
<snip>
>>IMO, all Sirius had to do was owl Dumbledore with the facts - "We 
were unregistered Animagi - I was a dog; James, a stag; and Peter, a 
rat. If you don't believe me, ask Lupin. Peter was Secret-Keeper, we
switched, he was working for Voldemort." Dumbledore would certainly
have been able to at least verify that MMWP were unregistered Animagi
by talking with Lupin.<<

HunterGreen:
Which would have certainly worked. I think the point in PoA is that 
Sirius did not escape Azkaban with plans of clearing his name. That 
thought occurred to him *later* after Lupin had showed up. Sirius 
says himself that he wanted to 'commit the murder' he 'was imprisoned 
for'. IMO he escaped with plans of KILLING PETER, and that was the 
only clear thought he had aside from a curiosity and general worry 
about Harry. He didn't want to kill Peter to prove his innocence, but 
to get revenge on his and Lily and James' behalf. That's the same way 
he acted after they were killed. If he had sent an owl to Dumbledore 
explaining the secret-keeper switch, there is a good chance 
Dumbledore would have believed him (or at least met with him). But 
when he finds Lily and James dead, he doesn't appear to be concerned 
with his own guilt or innocence, only with catching up with the 
person responsible. I don't think in either situation did he have a 
plan for *afterwards*, perhaps because at that point nothing else in 
the world mattered.


JoAnna:
>>I think that the main difference between GoF Sirius and OotP Sirius 
is that GoF Sirius was *free* - he could come and go as he pleased, 
where he pleased, when he pleased. OotP Sirius was a prisoner in his 
own home, an imprisonment which I'm sure reminded him of Azkaban. Many
would become reckless and hot-tempered in that situation, though I'm
not discounting the possibility that a Bufuddlement Draught may have
been involved.<<


HunterGreen:
I completely agree. Personally, I can see definite clues pointing at 
a poisoning storyline, but I don't see the need for it. His actions 
were completely understandable to me without need for another 
explaination. Actually, if it turns out that way, it'll cheapen 
things a little, like he can't be depressed and moody unless there's 
some 'magical' reason for it, instead of making the story more 
complex it would simplify it.





From drednort at alphalink.com.au  Wed Mar 17 10:10:18 2004
From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 21:10:18 +1100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] "Snape's Job"
In-Reply-To: <c3977e+ebvj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4058BEBA.8313.A597BE@localhost>

No: HPFGUIDX 93195

On 17 Mar 2004 at 9:53, severelysigune wrote:

> What on earth is Snape so (almost) satisfied about? Snape being 
> Snape, I suddenly started to wonder if he is pleased that Harry 
> should think he is spying whereas in fact he isn't (?!) - but that 
> does not seem to make much sense to me. And I find his suddenly 
> glinting eyes quite alarming. Any theories? Please?

Yeah, I've puzzled over that bit myself.

The only conclusion I've come to is Snape is satisfied because, to 
an extent, Harry is showing him a degree of respect by that 
statement.

Harry is acknowledging that Snape is risking his life to fight 
Voldemort.

It doesn't seem like Harry and Snape are ever likely to like each 
other. But they do seem to be on the same side - and maybe, given 
time, they can come to sort of mutual respect.

Consider that on the following page, Snape - grudgingly, admittedly 
- does sort of the same thing.

"'Reparo,' hissed Snape, and the jar sealed itself at once. "Well, 
Potter... that was certainly an improvement...' Panting slightly, 
Snape straightened the Pensieve in which he had again stored some 
of his thoughts before starting the lesson, almost as though he was 
checking they were still there. 'I don't remember telling you to 
use a Shield Charm... but there is no doubt that it was 
effective.'"

As I say - I think Snape is satisfied - because Harry has, for 
once, acknowledged what he is doing. And what Snape seems to be 
doing is a big deal. It's worthy of respect - whether or not the 
man himself is or not.

And Harry, having acknowledged Snape - Snape makes a tiny move to 
repay that.


Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia




From jenjar2001 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 17 06:45:23 2004
From: jenjar2001 at yahoo.com (jenjar2001)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 06:45:23 -0000
Subject: Order of The Phoenix-spoiler
In-Reply-To: <c38cla+9n1s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c38s63+iulo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93196

Mo:
 Supposedly, when JKR was writing OotP, she came out crying, and her 
> husband asked her what was wrong and she said she "killed" one of 
the 
> main characters.  Her husband said, 'Well, you don't have to kill 
> them if you don't want to.' And she said it had to happen this way.
> 
> Now, I don't know if the above is true or not, but it makes a 
really 
> interesting plot point if it is.  If JKR was upset about it enough 
to 
> make her cry, he must have "really died."  But, we, again, don't 
know 
> what exactly happened in his death.  And, we don't know if he can 
> communicate with Harry ever again.  
> 

Jenjar:

JKR said this in her interview with Katie Couric.  Your memory of it 
is very accurate.  I have wondered about what this means to the plot 
too.  I still think it's possible that the circumstances of Sirius' 
*death* while removing him from this side of the veil, (causing JKR 
to mourn) may not have all the same implications as a normal-everyday-
killing curse-death.  For example, Sirius may be able to watch over 
Harry more closely or communicate with him or something...  But 
really, who knows?  I just wonder why JKR left it vague - it means 
something...





From falkelihu at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 17 07:41:07 2004
From: falkelihu at yahoo.com (Elihu Falk)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 23:41:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape the Gryffindor or Ravenclaw?!
In-Reply-To: <c38h8r+cr2e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040317074107.80372.qmail@web61105.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93197

potioncat:
 

<snip>GoF, US paperback p531 Padfoot Returns:
Sirius is speaking, "Snape knew more curses when he arrived at school than half the kids in seventh year, and he was part of a gang of Slytherins who nearly all turned out to be Death Eaters."

I know our group can take that about 7 different ways, but it really sounds to me like Severus was in Slytherin.  

Sirius goes on to list 4 male names and Bellatrix as being in this gang.  So it could be that Rosier, Wilkes, the married Lestranges, Avery and Snape were in the same year in Slytherin.  He lists the others as having been found to be DE's (except for Avery who had claimed the Imperius curse and gone free) but goes on to say, "But 
as far as I know, Snape was never even accused of being a DE--not that that means much...."

Elihu:

He doesn't mention Bellatrix by name; he said "the Lestranges". After reading OP, and later re-reading this section of GF, I thought that meant Rabastan and Rudolfus, who at the time were Lestranges, and not Bellatrix, who was a Black. And Sirius doesn't say they were in the same year; it's quite possible that Harry may be in a "gang" of students including Ginny Weasley or Luna Lovegood of a different year.



Elihu
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From rgbmcl at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 17 09:00:00 2004
From: rgbmcl at hotmail.com (rgbmcl)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 09:00:00 -0000
Subject: Changing Houses
Message-ID: <c3942g+csta@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93198

I'm not sure where I read this - it was definately in a JKR interview 
I just don't remember which one - but it was mentioned that someone 
would be changing houses in the next couple books.  This brings up a 
lot of interesting possibilites.  My personal favorite:  Harry to 
Slytherin.  There's been this theme of the persecution of Harry 
running through all the books, and this would continue it nicely.  
Also, we've all been looking for the character who's supposed to 
unite the school, bringing Slytherin into the fold as it were.  Who 
better than Harry?  The main problem I have with this theory, though, 
is that I can't really see any plausible reason for the shift of 
Harry to Slytherin.  I mean, we all know the sorting hat said he'd do 
well there, but I really can't think that he, personally, wants to go 
there.  Nor can I think of any external agent that would force him 
there.  At the same time, I can't really imagine anyone else changing 
houses either; unless it's a slytherin into gryfinndor (where our 
attention is focused).  Hermione going to Ravenclaw, or Neville to 
Hufflepuff, is, plot-wise, fairly insignificant and doesnt't suggest 
any dramatic character development.  I don't believe that this is 
only a minor plot point.  As Dumbledore said - its the choices we 
make .... i.e. the changes we encounter...  I think this ability to 
change, to reconstitute oneself, will end up playing a major role in 
the plot of the series.  Give me your solutions to this riddle, I'm 
still a bit dissatisfied with mine.





From falkelihu at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 17 10:18:25 2004
From: falkelihu at yahoo.com (Elihu Falk)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 02:18:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] "Snape's Job"
In-Reply-To: <c3977e+ebvj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040317101825.2701.qmail@web61109.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93199

Sigune wrote: 
<snip>
I quote:
<'That is just as well, Potter,' said Snape coldly, 'because you are neither special nor important, and it is not up to you to find out what the Dark lord is saying to his Death Eaters.'
'No - that's your job, isn't it?' Harry shot at him.
He had not meant to say it; it had burst out of him in temper. For a long moment they stared at each other, Harry convinced he had gone too far. But there was a curious, almost satisfied expression on Snape's face when he answered.
'Yes, Potter,' he said, his eyes glinting. 'That is my job. Now, if you are ready, we will start again.'>

What on earth is Snape so (almost) satisfied about? Snape being Snape, I suddenly started to wonder if he is pleased that Harry should think he is spying whereas in fact he isn't (?!) - but that does not seem to make much sense to me. And I find his suddenly glinting eyes quite alarming. Any theories? Please?

Elihu's answer:

I think Snape wants 2 things:

1) Harry recognize that Snape is a good guy.
2) Harry not compete with Snape over the job of spying on Voldemort.

The second thing, I believe, is related to the question of why Malfoy was friendly with Karkaroff, who had caused Rookwood to go to Azkaban. M alfoy and Macnair were on close terms with important Ministry people, and possibly saw Rookwood as competition, so they were happy, to a degree, when he was caught.



Elihu
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From delwynmarch at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 17 11:07:59 2004
From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 11:07:59 -0000
Subject: Different moral standards (was : On the other hand)
In-Reply-To: <c37vs2+5rhj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c39bif+m3cv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93200

 
> > Geoff said :
> > 
> > > As a Christian, I believe that there are moral absolutes
> > 
> > Del replies :
> > 
> > I'm a Christian too, but not everyone is. And even as fellow 
> > Christians, it is possible we don't have exactly the same moral 
> > absolutes.
>  
> Geoff:
> That is a contradiction in terms. An absolute is an absolute is an 
> absolute. What is an absolute in France is an absolute in the UK 
> is an absolute in the US.

Del :
As far as I am concerned, there's only one absolute : God's Word. 
But I'll bet all my Galleons that you and I wouldn't even agree on 
what God's Word is and says. So what's left as an absolute ?
Can you find me anything that would be an absolute in rural US, 
rural Nigeria, rural Indonesia and rural China, for example ? (I 
chose only *rural* parts, because those parts are the ones which are 
more strongly influenced by traditions, rather than city parts) It 
won't be easy !

> > Del replies :
> > 
> > I must respectfully disagree. I just have to look around me
> >  to see that most people, Christian or not, don't care about 
> > loving their neighbours. They want to be loved, but they don't 
> > care about loving. Big difference. It's always "me first".
> >  Just like the Dursleys. The only true mortar of society that
> > I can see, so far, is that everyone is looking for their own 
> > fulfillment, in their own way. 
>  
> Geoff:
> I don't think this is the true mortar of society because what
> you are describing is a phenomenon which ultimately threatens to 
> undermine society. It is the "I'm all right Jack" approach and the 
> materialistic attitude of governments such as the "enterprise 
> culture" of Margaret Thatcher in the 1980s (which preached that 
> success was two cars outside a lavish house, green wellies, a 
> child called Crispin and a dog called Tebbitt) that has eroded the 
> traditional links of society and rubbished the spiritual element 
> of life - spiritual in its broadest sense in this context.


Del :
But it has always been that way ! Can you tell me when and where 
things were different, and what they were like then ? Life has 
always been about having more : more security, more prosperity, more 
land, more freedom to do as we will, whatever. That's precisely in 
my idea what's so terrifying about the Dursleys : they represent the 
epitome of our way of life (more for me, naught for others).


Geoff said :
> The problem facing the Dursleys is the same which faces people in 
> the real world who try to say that we can have different moral 
> stances. If we take this view to its logical extreme, then anyone 
> can hold any view and argue that it is right because it is their 
> view of morals. we have to accept that anyone can claim that their 
> interpretation of life represents their stance.....

Del :
Yep, exactly.
The only difference between now and "before", is that now our 
society has become permissive enough as to let everyone *express* 
their views. It used to be that only the "right" way of thinking 
could be spoken, but people still had each their own opinion, they 
just didn't *say* it ! And if they had enough power or at least if 
they were discreet enough, they could live their own way and not be 
bothered, just like the Dursleys do. Now many people want to live 
their own way AND to be approved for living that way, which creates 
a dilemma for most of us : we don't mind their living the way they 
want, but we don't want to approve of it, so what do we say ?

Geoff said : 
> Nazis could argue that the elimination of Communists, the killing 
> of people of Slavic descent and the Holocaust were quite in order 
> because they believed that this was a perfectly correct moral 
> attitude.

Del :
I'm sick of hearing about the Nazis ! The Nazi case only shocked us 
because it forced us to admit that racism and hate do exist on a big 
scale in our so-called enlightened societies, and most of all 
because we let it happen !!! That tells A LOT about our own moral 
code, doesn't it ? And do you know why we did it ? Because deep down 
we *agreed* with them ! How many Jews were killed throughout the 
centuries all over Europe ? How many were persecuted, beaten up, 
robbed, falsely accused ? And everyone supported that : after all, 
they were the Jews, the Evil People who killed the Lord, right ? So 
killing them isn't such a bad thing after all, right ? The only 
problem with the Holocaust is that it forced us to take the measure 
of the hate and racism we had accumulated through the centuries, and 
we simply couldn't digest it. And of course, it gave us an easy 
scapegoat to hate for the war and to unload all our anger and hurt 
on.
And by the way, it was neither the first nor the last massive 
massacre in History : think Carribean Indians for example (yes, the 
Carribean Islands used to be populated with Indians), or think 
Rwanda, Turkish Armenians, Cambodia, Bosnia, even Australia. It 
happened everywhere, at all times. So that LV wanting to get rid of 
all Muggles rings very true to me : it's absolutely logical, in the 
order of things.

Geoff said :
> Ian Huntley could argue that it was quite alright for him to abuse 
> and murder the two girls at Soham because he felt it fitted his 
> own moral standpoint. A paedophile could argue that their abuse of 
> children was quite in order because they saw nothing wrong with it 
> within their own moral code.

Del :
And that's exactly what some say. Some don't even understand when 
you tell them they are *abusing* children. In their idea, they are 
loving them. It is their idea of love, and whose fault is it if they 
don't know any better ? Not just their own in most cases, I'd say... 
I saw a report the other day about imprisoned abusing mothers. You'd 
think that's the ultimate depravation, for a mother to sexually 
abuse her own kids, right ? But when it turns out that *all* 30 of 
those in that prison had been abused themselves as kids, it suddenly 
makes things infinitely more complicated... I'm not saying they were 
right to abuse their kids, I'm just saying we need to act more on 
what we believe and what we know. We believe that it's wrong to 
abuse kids, and we now know that a percentage of abused kids will 
turn abusers, yet we do nothing or next-to-nothing to prevent that. 
Just like DD knew that the Dursleys had a major problem with 
anything magical and still dumped Harry on their doorstep : that was 
completely irresponsible, the Dursleys acted in a perfectly 
predictible way, nobody did anything, and now everyone is outraged ! 
DUH !!

Geoff said :
> I apologise if these ideas are anathema to some readers but they 
> are the logical conclusion of assuming that you can have a "free 
> market economy" in moral views. Either you have absolutes or you 
> have the mish-mash of anyone's choice of a moral pick-and-mix.

Del :
Wake up Geoff ! We *already* have such a mish-mash ! Which is 
precisely why we must speak out, instead of trying to prevent others 
from speaking. There are way too many voices shouting out there, and 
pretending they should just be silenced so only yours can be heard 
is both unrealistic and useless. You can't force people to choose 
your way by just barring all the other ways. You can only invite 
them, show them why your way is best, and love them. That's 
precisely why I'm disgusted at the way Harry's friends have chosen 
to deal with the Dursleys at the end of OoP : they want to *force* 
the Dursleys to treat Harry right. Okay, I understand that there's 
no time to develop a better strategy, but this one will be next to 
inefficient. Harry will probably not be hurt, but the Dursleys will 
hate him even more. The better solution would have been to untie 
their emotional knot, talk things over with them, love them, 
understand them, and get them to actually know and love Harry. But 
that would take time, that would require some people to apologise, 
others to forgive, and most to change, and nobody wants to bother 
with all of this.

Geoff said : 
> We see this in the Wizarding world in the long discussions we have 
> had over the question of pureblood versus half-blood and mudblood 
> where folk such as Voldemort (who, in the same way that Hitler was 
> not German and did not meet the ideals he laid down for the 
> Herrenvolk himself, was not a pureblood) and purebloods such as 
> Lucius Malfoy presume that they can consider themselves to be 
> above the rest of wizarding society and assume a moral ethic which 
> includes the ethnic cleansing of lesser beings.

Del :
Can't you see that the WW only mirrors what is happening in the Real 
World ? My husband could talk to you about ethnic cleansing : he was 
born in Yugoslavia, and though he's neither a Serb nor a Bosnian, 
the whole thing still hurt him. Those things are happening right 
now, and just saying indignantly "they should not happen !" won't 
stop them from happening ! They are the only way too many people 
know how to deal with each other, just like the Malfoys want to get 
rid of the Muggleborns, and the Gryffindors would love to get rid of 
the Slytherins.

> > Del answers :
> > 
> > I've read some articles on human biology that say exactly the 
> > opposite. Some scientists truly seem to believe that 
> > *everything* in human behaviour, including love and compassion, 
> > can be explained by either biology or social strategy.
> >
> 
> Geoff:
> Hm. I find it difficult to believe that biology or social strategy 
> make me prefer walking to being a couch potato or preferring 
> raspberries to bananas.

Del :
You'd be surprised.

Geoff said :
> I am sure there are many of our posters who will agree with me 
> that we are humans created by God while some may not go all the 
> way with me but still accept the idea of a higher being rather 
> than suggesting we are a random error in the fabric of the 
> universe.

Del :
And there are many who will go to *great* lengths to disprove the 
very concept of a higher being. Don't underestimate them just 
because you're convinced they are wrong. Don't think that they will 
realise the error of their way someday because most likely they 
won't. Especially if you and I just wait silently for all the other 
voices to shut up...

Del




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Wed Mar 17 12:35:15 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 12:35:15 -0000
Subject: Sirius and Confusing and Befuddlement Draughts
In-Reply-To: <c397on+ntq3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c39gm3+octm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93201

 
> HunterGreen wrote:
> I completely agree. Personally, I can see definite clues pointing 
at 
> a poisoning storyline, but I don't see the need for it. His 
actions 
> were completely understandable to me without need for another 
> explaination. Actually, if it turns out that way, it'll cheapen 
> things a little, like he can't be depressed and moody unless 
there's 
> some 'magical' reason for it, instead of making the story more 
> complex it would simplify it.



I agree, what is the need in the plot for Sirius to be poisoned?  I 
think it will have to be tied to another episode in book 6 or 7 for 
it to make sense. 

But I have a different take on it.  I also think he had very good 
reasons to be depressed without being poisoned  which is why none of 
the characters ever questioned his behavior or suspected poisoning. I
think having someone slip him confusing draughts would deepen the 
story. If he hadn't had a reason for being so emotionally unstable 
and no one was picking it up, it would seem like a cheap trick.


Potioncat 




From MadameSSnape at aol.com  Wed Mar 17 12:41:04 2004
From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 07:41:04 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape the Gryffindor or Ravenclaw?!
Message-ID: <1e2.1b75d392.2d89a160@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93202

In a message dated 3/17/2004 5:55:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
falkelihu at yahoo.com writes:
He doesn't mention Bellatrix by name; he said "the Lestranges". After reading 
OP, and later re-reading this section of GF, I thought that meant Rabastan 
and Rudolfus, who at the time were Lestranges, and not Bellatrix, who was a 
Black.
============

Sherrie here:

"The Lestranges - they're a married couple - they're in Azkaban..." - GoF, 
chapter "Padfoot Returns", p.461 (Bloomsbury paper ed.)

I doubt Sirius would want Harry to know at that point - when Harry'd really 
just begun to trust him - that Sirius' own cousin was a Death Eater...and 
surely Harry would've questioned the common surname?

Sherrie
"Unless history lives in our present, it has no future." 
PRESERVE OUR CIVIL WAR BATTLEFIELDS!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Wed Mar 17 12:55:04 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 12:55:04 -0000
Subject: Snape the Gryffindor or Ravenclaw?!
In-Reply-To: <20040317074107.80372.qmail@web61105.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c39hr8+kijj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93203

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Elihu Falk <falkelihu at y...> 
wrote:
> potioncat:
>  
> 
> <snip>GoF, US paperback p531 Padfoot Returns:
> Sirius is speaking, "Snape knew more curses when he arrived at 
school than half the kids in seventh year, and he was part of a gang 
of Slytherins who nearly all turned out to be Death Eaters."
> 
> I know our group can take that about 7 different ways, but it 
really sounds to me like Severus was in Slytherin.  
> 
> Sirius goes on to list 4 male names and Bellatrix as being in this 
gang.  So it could be that Rosier, Wilkes, the married Lestranges, 
Avery and Snape were in the same year in Slytherin.  He lists the 
others as having been found to be DE's (except for Avery who had 
claimed the Imperius curse and gone free) but goes on to say, "But 
> as far as I know, Snape was never even accused of being a DE--not 
that that means much...."
> 
> Elihu:
> 
> He doesn't mention Bellatrix by name; he said "the Lestranges". 
After reading OP, and later re-reading this section of GF, I thought 
that meant Rabastan and Rudolfus, who at the time were Lestranges, 
and not Bellatrix, who was a Black. And Sirius doesn't say they were 
in the same year; it's quite possible that Harry may be in a "gang" 
of students including Ginny Weasley or Luna Lovegood of a different 
year.
> 
>

Sorry, I was cutting corners. I mentioned Bellatrix by name, but 
Sirius doesn't.  In the actual quote, he says, "The Lestranges---
they're a married couple--they're in Azkaban."  

No, Sirius does not say anything about year group. What I should 
have said is that when I read this section I realized there were 5 
boys in the list (Snape and the 4 others) and 5 boys is what we 
generally see in one house's year group, debate about actual numbers 
aside.  So I wondered if this was a group of kids from the same 
year. 

Of course we don't know, but for some reason, it's been thought 
Severus was hanging out with older students. As far I know, canon 
doesn't tell us one way or the other.
 

Potioncat







From delwynmarch at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 17 12:58:03 2004
From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 12:58:03 -0000
Subject: On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
In-Reply-To: <c37d9m+2ap6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c39i0r+mbtq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93204


> Annemehr:
> And yes, there are thousands of "moral codes," but they are in
> surprising agreement, and where they disagree is very often on what
> aspects of morality to emphasise over others.  What they all do,
> though, is more or less successfully approach absolute moral 
> truth. Tolerance for differing moral codes has to be moderated by 
> justice: just as the world rejected South Africa's racist system 
> and forced change, so we can reject the Dursleys' treatment of 
> Harry as wrong.

Del :
I must disagree. The more I learn about other cultures or sub-
cultures, the more amazed I become at all the different moralities, 
and the more conscious I am that there doesn't seem to be any basic 
moral truth that applies everywhere. Every single bit of so-called 
absolute moral truth is challenged in some culture or another. Even 
the most basic principles such as the value of a human life, the 
integrity of a human body, free will, and so on, are dismissed in 
quite a few cultures and sub-cultures.
The example of South Africa is indeed edifying of how the strong 
ones (but not the whole world, oh no !) forced a weaker one to 
conform in action to their ideal, but didn't care about what was 
going on in the people's minds. Apartheid might be out of the 
country's constitution, but it's still very much there in the heads 
and hearts of many South Africans. And the successive changes that 
took place there over the last centuries have left the country in a 
state of complete disarray. The level of criminality is sky-
rocketing, insecurity and poverty are all over the place. But who 
cares ? They don't have Apartheid anymore, so that's fine. But 
Apartheid was merely a symptom of the terrible illness the country 
suffered from, it wasn't the sickness itself. And now the country is 
dying from it, in total indifference.
So it is also with the Dursleys' treatment of Harry. It's not so 
much the problem as the most visible symptom of their real problem : 
their hate and fear of the WW. Forcing them to erase the symptom 
wouldn't change anything to the problem, it would only hide it.

> Annemehr:
> What the Dursleys should do is try to see the difference between 
> right and wrong, make a reasonable attempt to do what is right, 
> and treat Harry accordingly.

Del :
??? What makes you believe that haven't done just that ? As far as 
we know, what was right for them might have been keep Harry, and 
what was wrong maybe was throw him out, and they chose the right 
thing. And once he was in the house, what was right might have been 
feed him twice a day and put clothes on his back, and what was wrong 
might have been let him starve and keep him naked. There are many 
people out there for whom raising a child the right way (whether 
they have money or not) is feed them pasta every night, make them 
sleep on old mattresses on the floor, clothe them with charity 
clothes, and throw them out the door the day they turn of age. 

Annemehr : 
> Why bring Dumbeldore into it?  Whether DD was just a doddering old
> fool who assumed the Dursleys would want to care for their nephew 
> or a Machiavellian who cared nothing about the abuse he foresaw, 
> that has nothing to do with Vernon and Petunia's guilt.  
> Culpability is not like a pie where, if you assign a bigger 
> portion to DD you're taking away from the Dursleys.

Del :
DD has to be brought into it just like past abuse has to be brought 
into the case of an abuser. You can't fairly try and understand and 
judge an abuser if you dismiss the fact that he was abused too in 
his youth. It's all part of the same problem, and it's a problem 
that has to be solved before the main one gets truly solved too.
Similarly, it's too easy to consider that the Dursleys' abuse of 
Harry came out of the blue. They had a whole history of conflict 
with the WW prior to Harry's arrival in their house. They had 
suffered their own kind of abuse from the WW, they had strong 
negative feelings about it and they didn't want *anything* to do 
with it. In those conditions, giving them Harry was only furthering 
the abuse. It's no surprise they took revenge the only way they 
could : they repeated the abuse on Harry.
Or if you prefer, see it that way : they were allergic to anything 
magic, and someone forced a magical child in their house. It's only 
normal that they should do their best to eradicate the allergen. I'm 
simplifying, but you get the idea.

> Annemehr:
> As has already been pointed out, we don't really know exactly what 
> DD was chosing between: misery for Harry, death for Harry, death 
> for Harry and also for countless other witches and wizards?
> 
> How to save as many lives as possible with the least loss of life
> caused by your own actions in the face of a very real threat is a
> completely moral question, and one which DD is having difficulty 
> with himself.  DD apparently believes it is right to endanger or 
> sacrifice a relatively few lives in order to save many (this would 
> fall under the concept of a "just war," for anyone familiar with 
> that).  Some people will disagree and say it is wrong to cause 
> anyone's death for any reason at all.  This goes back to a point 
> in my first paragraph where I say many people's moral 
> disagreements are often about which aspects of morality should 
> take precedence -- in this case the duty to defend the innocent 
> vs. the duty to avoid causing pain and death.

Del :
But if you cause pain and death to the innocent, then you've missed 
your point anyway. Unless the pain of that innocent can be dismissed 
because somehow it's less important ? Then picture this : your child 
is abducted, raped, tortured and killed, and then his attacker is 
arrested by the police, who had monitored him all the time. They 
explain to you that they suspected he was a kid abuser, but they had 
no proof, so they had to let him do it once more so they can put him 
in prison. How do you react ?
There are no just wars. A people can defend themselves when 
attacked, but there are no justification for attacking. There are no 
justifications for killing and hurting innocent people in order to 
punish their leaders for something they haven't done yet !!

> Annemehr:
> You've forgotten one that fits right in:
> 
> "There is no good and evil, there is only power, and those too 
> weak to seek it..."
> Professor Quirrell

Del :
He was right, as far as human good and evil go. It's those in power 
who decide what's good and what's evil. After all, isn't it because 
God is the Ultimate Leader, the One with all the power, that we 
believe He knows the ultimate good and evil ? If God was just very 
wise with no power, if we didn't believe He can punish or reward us 
in the end, who would listen to Him ? I repeat what I said in other 
posts : it's always a matter of "what's in it for me ?"

Del




From delwynmarch at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 17 13:46:26 2004
From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 13:46:26 -0000
Subject: On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
In-Reply-To: <c37q80+evl4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c39kri+6d0o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93205


Suehpfan :
> I do believe most people would have taken well care of a child 
> they chose to raise. 

Del :
Too many people can't even take well care of a child they chose to 
*conceive*. And people who want to adopt kids are thoroughly 
screened precisely because abuse of adopted kids is too common.

Sue :
> The most important point I was trying to make is that Petunia 
> chose to keep him.  The moment she made that decision she held a 
> responsibility to raise him, and raise him well.  She could have 
> said no.

Del :
We still don't know that.

Sue :
> Their position here is not defensible (IMHO) because they did at 
> least better by Dudley in providing food and shelter.

Del :
As far as we know, maybe the way they took care of Harry is what's 
normal in their idea, and the way they took care of Dudley is 
exceptional. Maybe it's not a matter of bad and good, but of good 
and better ?
Well, okay, even I don't believe it :-)
But what I do believe is that they deeply resented Harry for "taking 
away" from Dudley. Even if they spent as little time and money as 
possible on Harry, it was still ressources they couldn't spend on 
Dudley as they had planned to. For some people, that matters a lot.

> > Del answers :
> > 
> > I would be disappointed because of the message it would send out 
> > to the kids out there, that people who don't think like us 
> > *must* change in the end. It simply doesn't promote tolerance.
> 
> To accept the abuse of another human being is not tolerance, it is 
> capitulation and it is inexcusable.  I sincerely hope that no 
> child reading these books on their own or being read to by an 
> adult believes when it is all said and done is that the right 
> thing to do is tolerate someone abusing someone else in any way.  
> I believe  JKR would be horrified at the thought of her words 
> being used to promote "tolerance" in regards to abuse. Tolerance 
> of difference, but abuse is not a difference it is a crime.  A 
> crime against the vulnerable.

Del :
Okay, I didn't express my feelings clearly on that one.
What I am against is that idea that the Dursleys should change on 
their own, that they should wake up one day and say : "Hey, we've 
been lying for years, we always knew we were doing wrong, we are 
evil, what we've done to Harry is horrible !" That would be awful in 
my idea, because it would imply that whoever is doing bad things 
(things the kids think are bad) necessarily knows they are doing 
something evil and they are doing it out of pure evilness and they 
can just be forced to admit it and to change it. It's just not 
always that simple. The Dursleys probably know that their solution 
to their problem (Harry) is not the only one, the one the WW would 
approve of, but they might not see a way out. I would like them to 
be shown the way through *love* and help, not through force. After 
all, many people on this list believe that Harry will beat LV 
through love, so what's so crazy about my request that the Dursleys 
should be shown love as well ?? I want the kids who read the books 
to learn that too often, when some people do bad things, it's 
because they don't know much better, but they will change if they 
are guidely nicely. I want the kids to learn that the school bully 
might need just as much help as the kids he's beating, that the 
nasty teacher might be hurting just as much as the kids he's 
belittling (as some say Snape does), that the grouchy old neighbour 
might just be desperately alone, etc... I want kids to learn that a 
behaviour can be bad, but that most of the time the person isn't, 
and that with adequate help (not beating and hate) they can change 
that behaviour.
And yes in my idea abuse falls under the category of bad behaviours. 
And I also know it's hard to love an abuser.

Del




From delwynmarch at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 17 14:02:56 2004
From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 14:02:56 -0000
Subject: Petunia had no choice
In-Reply-To: <c37q80+evl4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c39lqg+1o3s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93206


Suehpfan said :
> Petunia *agreed* to take Harry.  There must have been a way 
> for her to tell DD to take the bundle put it somewhere else. No 
> thank you. 

Del :
This seems to be an opinion shared by quite a few. Not by me though. 
My main reason is that if DD didn't intend to force the Dursleys to 
take Harry, why did he leave Harry on their doorstep in the middle 
of the night ? It's not an honest way to deal with such a situation. 
DD could have come to them during the day, with baby Harry, and ask 
them if they didn't mind keeping him. Leaving him on their doorstep 
didn't leave them much of a choice.

Moreover, the fact that DD didn't seem to worry about baby Harry 
being in danger while out there on the doorstep all night, makes me 
think that the charm had *already* been sealed, *before* Petunia had 
any say in the decision.


Del





From udderpd at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Mar 17 14:23:26 2004
From: udderpd at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?udder=5Fpen=5Fdragon?=)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 14:23:26 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Petunia had no choice
In-Reply-To: <c39lqg+1o3s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040317142327.59884.qmail@web25104.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93207



Doriane <delwynmarch at yahoo.com> wrote:

Suehpfan said :
> Petunia *agreed* to take Harry. There must have been a way 
> for her to tell DD to take the bundle put it somewhere else. No 
> thank you. 

Del :said
This seems to be an opinion shared by quite a few. Not by me though. 
My main reason is that if DD didn't intend to force the Dursleys to 
take Harry, why did he leave Harry on their doorstep in the middle 
of the night ? It's not an honest way to deal with such a situation. 
DD could have come to them during the day, with baby Harry, and ask 
them if they didn't mind keeping him. Leaving him on their doorstep 
didn't leave them much of a choice.

Moreover, the fact that DD didn't seem to worry about baby Harry 
being in danger while out there on the doorstep all night, makes me 
think that the charm had *already* been sealed, *before* Petunia had 
any say in the decision.


Udder_P_D

IMO you are nearly correct.

I believe that Petunia was aware of her sister's situation in advance and she knew what would be happening in the event of James and Lilly's death and Harry living.

How/Why this should be so? Dumbledore knows and I can't figure

U Pendragon



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From willsonkmom at msn.com  Wed Mar 17 14:43:49 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 14:43:49 -0000
Subject: Snapes punishing assignments are to help Harry?
In-Reply-To: <c38s8t+brms@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c39o75+fli5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93208


> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mclellyn" <ellyn337 at e...> 
> Mclellyn wrote:

>snip<

> > So now I'm wondering, has anyone looked into the past assignments
> by > > Snape to see if they would have helped Harry?  Let me know!
 

Lynnette wrote:
> 
> JMHO, but Snape has ALWAYS been giving Harry vital lessons and/or 
> help when seeming to be harrassing him.  Their first encounter in 
> that first potions lesson for instance.  I'll bet Harry never 
forgets 
> what a bezoar is or where it comes from.



Potioncat now:
Oh, I agree, almost all of the times Snape harrasses Harry, he's 
doing it to cover up the real reason for the event.  (teaching a 
lesson or having him wait for DD to arrive) And I"ve heard it said 
several times, "He'll never forget what a bezoar is." 

So, with that in mind, I just read this line a few days ago. 
GoF "The Unexpected Task" p396 US paperback:
"He found it hard to concentrate on Snape's Potions test, and 
consequently forgot to add the key ingredient--a bezoar--meaning 
that he received bottom marks."

LoL

Potioncat




From delwynmarch at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 17 14:47:04 2004
From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 14:47:04 -0000
Subject: Different moral standards (was : On the other hand)
In-Reply-To: <c37rku+flar@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c39od8+dldo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93209



> Carol "justcarol67" :
> I don't think it's their moral code that differs from most other
> people's. As middle-class British Muggles, they were undoubtedly
> taught the same (Western) values as everyone else in their social
> class.

Del :
There's a difference between being taught and believing. They were 
taught the same values as others, but that doesn't mean they 
accepted them for themselves. We all "pick and choose" what we want 
and like in the morals we are taught.

Carol :
> What I think is "different" about them is a double standard for
> the two boys.

Del :
Most parents do that. It's almost impossible to treat all your kids 
the exact same way. You react differently to all of them, and thus 
treat them differently.

(snip very interesting analysis of the 2 standards applied to Harry 
and Dudley)

Carol :
> They know good from evil. How could they not?

Del :
They know some things are good and some are evil. Everyone does. But 
everyone doesn't agree on which things are good or evil.

Carol :
> They just choose to ignore bend the rules a little
> when it comes to Harry, who is both different from themselves and
> therefore, in their view, not entitled to the same rights and
> privileges, and potentially dangerous, and therefore, in their 
> view, must be kept under control. (I am not trying to defend them, 
> only to analyze their psychology and behavior.)

Del :
Then I'd say they are *adapting* the rules, not ignoring or bending 
them. A bit like a friend of mine has to be much stricter with her 
hyperactive child than with her other children : he needs to keep 
himself under control, and she has to help him by preventing him 
from getting over-excited. It might sound like she's always at him 
sometimes, but she's actually helping him. Yep, that's another 
explanation for the Dursleys' behaviour, though I think it's a 
bit "light" and it doesn't explain why they never showed him any 
love and why they continue to mistreat him now that he's at Hogwarts 
anyway.

> Del: 
> > That's kind of logical. Vernon is the father, the dominant male, 
> > out there to destroy anything that might threaten his mate and 
> > his offspring. Petunia is a female, which by definition means 
> > she has a (very deeply hidden :-) soft spot for young ones.

> Carol:
> This idea that maleness equals domination, femaleness equals
> passivity, gentleness, and submission, seems very far from JKR's 
> own views. 

Del :
Ah, I made a mistake in expressing myself yet again. I meant more 
something like "the protective male". And don't tell me they don't 
exist, you should just see my husband, who's the nicest guy 
otherwise, get all menacing and almost-growling when someone makes a 
menacing move towards me or our son :-)
And I am everything but passive, gentle or submissive :-)

Carol :
> The dominant male concept doesn't hold water in JKR's world (or 
> the RW in which the book was written, either),

Del :
I agree, I agree. Sorry again for the misunderstanding.

Carol :
> I agree with you that the Dursleys fear Harry and that their 
> treatment of him stems from that fear. But as far as I can see, 
> that's the only point we agree on.

Del :
That's already quite a lot :-)

Del




From delwynmarch at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 17 14:54:09 2004
From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 14:54:09 -0000
Subject: Snape the Gryffindor or Ravenclaw?!
In-Reply-To: <20040317074107.80372.qmail@web61105.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c39oqh+4j9j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93210

Elihu Falk wrote:
> it's quite possible that Harry may be in a "gang" of students 
> including Ginny Weasley or Luna Lovegood of a different year.

Del :
Would that mean that Luna (a Ravenclaw if I'm not mistaken) is in a 
gang of Gryffindors ? 

Del




From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 17 15:06:39 2004
From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 15:06:39 -0000
Subject: FILK: Harry Potter Better Shut His Trap
Message-ID: <c39phv+bkgm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93211

Song #6 from my CoS musical, A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the 
Chamber

Harry Potter Better Shut His Trap (CoS, Chap. 1-2)

To the tune of Everybody Ought to Have a Maid, from Sondheim's A 
Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum 

A brief MIDI can be heard at:

http://www.bway2.com/tracks/forum/

Dedicated to Suzanne Chiles

THE SCENE: THE DURSLEYS make their dinner plans to entertain the 
Masons, plans which do not include HARRY

VERNON (spoken) 
I think we should run through the schedule one more time. We should 
all be in position at eight o'clock. Petunia, you will be -?

PETUNIA
In the lounge, waiting to welcome them graciously to our home.

VERNON
Good, good. And Dudley?

DUDLEY
I'll be waiting to open the door. "May I take your coats, Mr. and 
Mrs. Mason?"

PETUNIA (rapturously)
They'll love him! 

VERNON
Excellent, Dudley (turning to Harry). And you?

HARRY
I'll be in my bedroom, making no noise and pretending I'm not there
..

VERNON
Exactly
.

(music) Harry Potter better shut his trap

PETUNIA
Harry Potter better shut his trap

VERNON
Harry Potter better take a silent vow
Harry Potter will receive a violent pow
If uttering in our house.

Harry Potter better shut his trap

PETUNIA
Harry Potter better shut his trap

VERNON
Harry Potter better plan to take his ease,
Whilst I tell jokes of Japanese,
Stay quieter than a mouse!

THE DURSLEYS
Oh! Oh,
Truly you shall be chastened
If you annoy the Masons
Too right you will
Oh! oh,
Soon we will be charading
Telling lies, selling drills

VERNON
Harry Potter better shut his trap

PETUNIA
Harry better use of vocal chords suspend
He better prove he can pretend
He never lived in our house!

Hiding himself in his room
Sliding himself in shadows
Residing in the background
Delighting in obscure forms
Potter will make no sound `round us!

THE DURSLEYS
Oh! Oh,
Soon we'll in Majorca
Mingling with New Yorkas
In our chalet
Oh! oh,
Wouldn't it be majestic
Spanish nights, clannish days?
Harry Potter better shut his trap

VERNON
Harry Potter better shut his trap

PETUNIA
Harry Potter better shut his trap

VERNON
In this series, he may be eponymous
Tonight, he'll stay anonymous
Or he will hear us grouse

Hammering no loud habits
Clamoring no low comments
Grammaring no grimaces
Stammering no stray stories

VERNON & PETUNIA
Potter will make no sound
`Round us!

(Disconsolate and depressed, HARRY retreats to his room only to be 
met by DOBBY)

HARRY
An elf?

DOBBY
An elf.

HARRY
An elf.

BOTH
An elf!

DOBBY
Harry Potter better heed this elf
Harry ought to know that he's in dire straits
That he will meet a die-er's fate
Unless he stays in this house.

Oh! oh!
Think of me, a poor house-elf
I to your aid am unselfishly devote

Oh! oh!
Dobby is so delinquent
Knocking head . . .

(As DOBBY bangs his head, HARRY sees all the letters that the elf 
purloined from him)

HARRY
Blocking notes?

DOBBY
Harry Potter better heed this elf
Dauntingly detecting evil mischief this fall
You'd better plan a school withdrawal

HARRY
I'll never stay in this house!

DOBBY
Scattering down the stairway,

HARRY
Clattering to the kitchen,

DOBBY
Platter up to the ceiling

HARRY
Shattering all the pudding,

BOTH
Pudding is all around
The house.
The house.
The house.
The house!

(Exit DOBBY. Sounds of screams and people exiting the house from off-
stage. Enter VERNON & PETUNIA, deeply enraged, carrying a note from 
the Ministry of Magic) 

VERNON
An owl!

HARRY
An owl?

PETUNIA
An owl!

ALL THREE
An owl!

VERNON
Harry Potter just received an owl
With a memo saying he's expel-lible
For casting magic spells in full
View of Muggles in the house!

Oh! Oh!
Thanks to this owl from Hopkirk
Now you will have to stop work
On magic shouts
Oh! Oh!
Aren't you now in detention, 

PETUNIA
Locking in . . .

VERNON
Clocking out!

THE DURSLEYS
Harry Potter just received an owl
He's thinking that Muggles are so credulous
So won't he find it fabulous
His wand's forever doused?

VERNON
Exported from the anteroom,

PETUNIA
Deported from the living room,

VERNON
Athwarted from the dining room,

PETUNIA
Transported to his bedroom,

THE DURSLEYS
Potter'll never leave 
Our house,
Our house,
Our house,
Our house!
 
    -	CMC

HARRY POTTER FILKS 
http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm 





From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 17 15:11:56 2004
From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 15:11:56 -0000
Subject: Order of The Phoenix-spoiler
In-Reply-To: <c38cla+9n1s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c39prt+89r4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93212


> Now, the reason I question the authenticity, is because there is a 
> similar quote about Puccini when he was writing his last opera, 
> Turandot.  He came out crying after he wrote the music where Liu 
> dies.  So, who knows.  It could just be an uncanny coincidence that 
> both JKR and Puccini had the same reaction to characters dying. 
> 
Let's pray that their reaction will  not be *quite* the "same," since 
Puccini died before Turandot was completed - the opera's final scene 
was written by Franco Alfano (the final 15 minutes)

  - CMC (OT, I know)




From delwynmarch at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 17 15:15:09 2004
From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 15:15:09 -0000
Subject: The Dursleys *are* guilty (was : On the other hand )
In-Reply-To: <c38hg4+t4h4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c39q1t+10mg3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93213


> Siriusly Snapey Susan wrote :
> And **regardless** of that, I do NOT believe that one party is 
> absolved of guilt simply because another party or parties did not 
> fulfill their moral or legal responsibilities. The fact that no 
> one else stepped in doesn't mean that the Dursleys are relieved of 
> any responsibility for their own moral or immoral behavior!  To 
> me, arguing that is like saying, "Well, that store clerk didn't 
> care when those three guys stole 10 cartons of cigarettes, so it's 
> okay if I steal some, too."  

Del :
Okay, I've been suspected several times already of trying to absolve 
the Dursleys by putting the guilt on everyone else. So let's be 
clear : that's NOT what I'm trying to do. It's not okay to steal 
just because someone else did it. But if I do it, and nobody comes 
after me, I'll be reinforced in my idea that I can do it and not 
suffer any consequences. And when I've done it long enough, I might 
get conditioned to thinking that's okay after all, and forget that 
most people don't think that way and be very surprised when someone 
tells me so. After all, if they didn't find it okay, why didn't they 
tell me so earlier ? It doesn't change the fact that it was wrong to 
steal to start with, but it does put part of the responsibility for 
my stealing *again* on the society (police, clerk, whoever). As we 
say in France : "qui ne dit mot consent" : who doesn't say a word 
agrees.
I'm not trying to discharge the Dursleys. I'm trying to add guilt on 
other people who are partly responsible for the Dursleys' 
*continuous* abuse of Harry. If DD had popped up next to Dudley the 
first time he hit Harry, or next to Petunia when she didn't give him 
enough to eat, or next to Vernon when he gave Harry one of Dudley's 
discarded clothes, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have done it 
*again* !

Del




From kcawte at ntlworld.com  Wed Mar 17 23:20:16 2004
From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 15:20:16 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape the Gryffindor or Ravenclaw?!
References: <c38h8r+cr2e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <007f01c40c76$68e8d4a0$bcde6251@kathryn>

No: HPFGUIDX 93214

 Potioncat


>
> As to being Head of House, I can't imagine your house as a student
> would be an important consideration for Head of House.  What if a
> professor was up for head and the available slot wasn't from his old
> house?  Or if the professor came from one of the other schools?
> It's my pet theory that Sprout was a Slytherin, but I don't have any
> canon for it.

K

I don't think it's compulsorily for the House Head to be from that house
(for the reasons you gave) *but* I do think it would be an important
consideration. Remember the kids are sorted (afawk) by personality type - so
the best person to understand them would be someone from their house.
Although we don't see much of it in the books, at a boarding school the
House Head would have a role in maintaining the welfare of his/her kids as
well as simply keeping an eye on them when it comes to work and behaviour. I
don't think Ron, for example, would be a good head of Ravenclaw or
Slytherin, but he *might* make a good head or Gryffindor. Obviously some
people would make good heads of other houses - Hermione might make Ravenclaw
(as would Remus I think), Harry might be able to do the Slytherin job (he
obviously has plenty of Slytherin traits - although as a half-blood he might
have trouble keeping the respect of the more brainwashed kids)

K





From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Wed Mar 17 15:23:57 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 15:23:57 -0000
Subject: Snape and the MOM
In-Reply-To: <c38mtt+gk79@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c39qid+a8r3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93215

Sue wrote:
> I do have a question for you though, do you think Snape is in 
> contact with Voldemort directly, or do you think he is only in 
> contact with Malfoy?

Susan:
Sue meant this question to come to me offlist, but I'd like to keep 
it out there for anyone else to answer if they like.  I really have 
NOT made up my mind about whether Severus speaks to Lucius or to 
Voldy or to both....  At this point I think I'm having difficulty 
separating what I read in a particularly good piece of fanfic from 
what might really be happening in the real Potterverse.  I'd be 
curious, though, whether others think he's talking ONLY through 
Malfoy or whether he has means of communicating w/ Voldy.  (I lean 
towards the latter, but I'm not sure.)

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From pen at pensnest.co.uk  Wed Mar 17 15:33:47 2004
From: pen at pensnest.co.uk (Pen Robinson)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 15:33:47 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
In-Reply-To: <c38d2q+e63d@eGroups.com>
References: <c38d2q+e63d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <7BADF481-7828-11D8-87A1-0030654DED6A@pensnest.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 93216

>>
>> Del answers :
>>
>> Aha ! I completely agree with you, and I repeat what I said in
>> another post : WHY didn't anyone do anything to stop their abusing
>> Harry ? Harry was going to school with unfitting clothes and broken
>> glasses, he was being chased and bullied by Dudley and his gang
>> right in the school and in the street, he must have acted in social
>> situations in a way that screamed "abused kid", he was left in a
>> tree for *hours* with a dog barking at him, etc... And yet we are
>> never told that anyone reported anything, that the social services
>> came to visit, that any teacher had a chat with the Dursleys, that
>> Dumbledore or anyone else came to visit them and check on Harry
>> (even though we know the WW had a way of knowing anything and
>> everything they needed to about Harry, through Mrs Figg), or
>> *anything* !!
>>

When I first read PS I was reminded of Roald Dahl books  (think of 
Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, in which the Bucket family is 
incredibly poor and the grandparents live in bed).

Harry's situation, and the Dursleys, are not supposed to be realistic.  
Child protection agencies and social services, and friendly teachers 
who recognise that Harry is being neglected, are as irrelevant to the 
story as... as Cinderella's social security number.  The Dursleys are 
caricatures of suburban petty-mindedness, not character studies.    The 
woes of Harry's life are not intended as a heart-rendingly accurate 
depiction of an abused boyhood; his situation is set up thus so that it 
contrasts to maximum effect with his magical destiny.

It really doesn't stand up to the depth of analysis this thread is 
trying to apply.

Pen




From pen at pensnest.co.uk  Wed Mar 17 15:33:17 2004
From: pen at pensnest.co.uk (Pen Robinson)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 15:33:17 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Different moral standards
In-Reply-To: <a0521060bbc7c13d303b2@[66.48.151.79]>
References: <a0521060bbc7c13d303b2@[66.48.151.79]>
Message-ID: <69F0951C-7828-11D8-87A1-0030654DED6A@pensnest.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 93217


On 16 Mar 2004, at 02:15, freda wrote:
>
>
> The Dursley's have had one child, and unless someone knows otherwise,
> they have not had other children so that they can devote all of their
> resources, love , money etc to the one child.

Heh!

Can you - and please, don't try this at home - imagine Petunia and 
Vernon engaging in The Act Of Procreation more than once?

Pen
<surprised they have a child at all...>




From delwynmarch at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 17 15:34:55 2004
From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 15:34:55 -0000
Subject: On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
In-Reply-To: <c38ht6+rd75@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c39r6v+914n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93218

> Siriusly Snapey Susan said :
> I *do* believe there are *some* elements which, if not absolutely 
> universal, come pretty damn close.  Murder, abuse of children, 
> slavery, protection of private property

Del :
Stoning of "adulterous" women ?
Working at the age of 5, being married at the age of 10, having kids 
at 11, going to war at 12...
Slavery is still very common in quite a few parts of the world. Not 
to mention that very-low wages can be assimilated to slavery.
Car-burning is getting quite common here, and the kids rarely get a 
real sentence.

Susan :
> --these are things upon which most societies agree.  We don't have 
> to agree on the nitty-gritty of every moral standard to agree that 
> some reasonable degree of care for a child is expected, as well as 
> that abuse should NOT happen.  Do you really disagree with that??

Del :
Harry was fed 3 times a day, he had clothes on his back, he had a 
private warm place to sleep in, he went to school and not to work, 
he had glasses for his eyes, he obviously didn't suffer from any 
major dietary imbalance, he could read and write at the age of 11, 
he was beaten up only by his cousin. It's a lot less than most kids 
in *our countries* get, but it's much more than most kids in *the 
world* get. See, it's all a matter of which standards you use.

And yes I know, the Dursleys *should* have applied by our 
standards...

Del




From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 17 15:36:12 2004
From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (drjuliehoward)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 15:36:12 -0000
Subject: Changing Houses
In-Reply-To: <c3942g+csta@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c39r9c+gqsp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93219

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rgbmcl" <rgbmcl at h...> wrote:
> I'm not sure where I read this - it was definately in a JKR 
interview 
> I just don't remember which one - but it was mentioned that 
someone 
> would be changing houses in the next couple books.  This brings up 
a 
> lot of interesting possibilites.  My personal favorite:  Harry to 
> Slytherin.  There's been this theme of the persecution of Harry 
> running through all the books, and this would continue it nicely.  
> Also, we've all been looking for the character who's supposed to 
> unite the school, bringing Slytherin into the fold as it were.  
Who 
> better than Harry?  The main problem I have with this theory, 
though, 
> is that I can't really see any plausible reason for the shift of 
> Harry to Slytherin.  I mean, we all know the sorting hat said he'd 
do 
> well there, but I really can't think that he, personally, wants to 
go 
> there.  Nor can I think of any external agent that would force him 
> there.  At the same time, I can't really imagine anyone else 
changing 
> houses either; unless it's a slytherin into gryfinndor (where our 
> attention is focused).  Hermione going to Ravenclaw, or Neville to 
> Hufflepuff, is, plot-wise, fairly insignificant and doesnt't 
suggest 
> any dramatic character development.  I don't believe that this is 
> only a minor plot point.  As Dumbledore said - its the choices we 
> make .... i.e. the changes we encounter...  I think this ability 
to 
> change, to reconstitute oneself, will end up playing a major role 
in 
> the plot of the series.  Give me your solutions to this riddle, 
I'm 
> still a bit dissatisfied with mine.

I was unaware that JKR said someone would switch houses, but this is 
an intriguing idea.  However, I don't know if Harry changing to 
Slytherin would result in a unification of the houses simply because 
of the open animosity between Harry and Draco and because all of 
Hogwarts knew via the sorting hat that Harry did not want to be in 
Slytherin.  

I do think that Gryffindor and Slytherin houses have the largest gap 
to bridge before unification can take place.  I personally think a 
Slytherin switching to Gryffindor would facilitate this more than 
the other way around because this person would be *accomodated* into 
Gryffindor.  The other Slytherins would see vicariously that they 
would not have to change their character to fit in, whereas IMO a 
Gryffindor would have to assimilate the characteristics of a 
Sltherin to fit into that House.  Again, the tolerance idea that JKR 
propmotes fits nicely into this scenario, assuming of course that 
Gryffindors are more tolerant than Slytherins (an assumption based 
on the congenial relationship between Gryffindor and 
Ravenclaw/Hufflepuff wherease Slytherin house has a more 
antagonistic relationship with these two houses -- canon evidence 
being the reaction of the other houses when Gryffindor won the house 
cup in SS).

Julie -- who never likes the idea of being pigeon-holed (and who 
never went Greek in college)





From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Wed Mar 17 15:40:45 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 15:40:45 -0000
Subject: Different moral standards (was : On the other hand)
In-Reply-To: <c39bif+m3cv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c39rht+uaf8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93220

Del:
> Can you find me anything that would be an absolute in rural US, 
> rural Nigeria, rural Indonesia and rural China, for example ? (I 
> chose only *rural* parts, because those parts are the ones which
> are more strongly influenced by traditions, rather than city parts) 
> It won't be easy !

Susan:
Yes, I can!  How about "Don't steal my property", "Don't kill your 
neighbor", "Don't harm my child"?  I wonder if you're thinking more 
of entire **value systems** instead of particular mores or laws.  I 
believe there are many different viewpoints & outlooks on life & on 
particular issues such as war or recreational drug use or RU-486, but 
I also believe there **are** some nearly-universal expectations for 
moral behavior, as I've posted at least 3 times now.  These are 
things which are so widely held to be good or true or necessary that 
they have been codified into laws.  Or are you saying that people in 
rural Indonesia or rural Nigeria wouldn't agree with even these I've 
listed at the start of my paragraph?

Siriusly Snapey Susan...who lives in a fairly rural part of the US 
herself and who is very tired of this topic at this point and *will* 
be letting it go now.





From annemehr at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 17 15:45:34 2004
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 15:45:34 -0000
Subject: On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
In-Reply-To: <c39i0r+mbtq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c39rqu+10461@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93221

Since we are in danger of veering off topic, I'll try to be concise
and relate my points to the Dursleys and Dumbledore.  If I snip out
something you really wanted me to address, please let me know.
> 
> > Annemehr:
> > And yes, there are thousands of "moral codes," but they are in
> > surprising agreement, and where they disagree is very often on what
> > aspects of morality to emphasise over others.
<snip>
> 
> Del :
> I must disagree. The more I learn about other cultures or sub-
> cultures, the more amazed I become at all the different moralities, 
> and the more conscious I am that there doesn't seem to be any basic 
> moral truth that applies everywhere. Every single bit of so-called 
> absolute moral truth is challenged in some culture or another. Even 
> the most basic principles such as the value of a human life, the 
> integrity of a human body, free will, and so on, are dismissed in 
> quite a few cultures and sub-cultures.

Annemehr:
Yes, but they are not *completely* different moralities.  What they do
is emphasise some moral values and suppress some others.  Each culture
has a lot of the entire moral truth, but they differ in which parts
they lack.

Del:
> The example of South Africa is indeed edifying of how the strong 
> ones (but not the whole world, oh no !) forced a weaker one to 
> conform in action to their ideal, but didn't care about what was 
> going on in the people's minds.<snip>
> And the successive changes that 
> took place there over the last centuries have left the country in a 
> state of complete disarray.<snip>

Annemehr:
The heart and mind is precisely what you can *not* force change upon.
 That doesn't mean you throw up your hands and give up stopping the
destructive behavior.  After that you can try to persuade people to
change their hearts, but they won't unless they come to want to. 
There are people trying to change minds in S. Africa, but you can't
force that, so it will be a slow process.  Besides, apartheid was
"order" for the white people, but it *was* complete disarray for the
black ones.

Similarly, in the case of the Dursleys, the first thing to do is put a
stop to their abuse of Harry.  After that, you can try to change the
underlying cause of the abuse, which is in the hearts and minds of the
Dursleys themselves.  You may be successful, or they may flat-out
refuse to change, but at least the abuse will have stopped.

At the end of OoP, Harry's friends took steps to stop the abuse.  I'll
admit it doesn't look likely anyone's going to have a heart-to-heart
with the Dursleys anytime soon, but perhaps they figure the Dursleys
should know better.


> > Annemehr:
> > What the Dursleys should do is try to see the difference between 
> > right and wrong, make a reasonable attempt to do what is right, 
> > and treat Harry accordingly.
> 
> Del :
> ??? What makes you believe that haven't done just that ? As far as 
> we know, what was right for them might have been keep Harry, and 
> what was wrong maybe was throw him out, and they chose the right 
> thing. And once he was in the house, what was right might have been 
> feed him twice a day and put clothes on his back, and what was wrong 
> might have been let him starve and keep him naked. There are many 
> people out there for whom raising a child the right way (whether 
> they have money or not) is feed them pasta every night, make them 
> sleep on old mattresses on the floor, clothe them with charity 
> clothes, and throw them out the door the day they turn of age.

Annemehr:
Obviously, that's not what the Dursleys thought was the way to raise a
child, because that's not how they raised Dudley.  I'll grant you that
they may have sincerely believed the best thing for Harry and
themselves was to squash the magic out of Harry. But if that's true,
then they also enjoyed abusing Harry even more, because it was their
own actions that brought out Harry's magic.
 
> 
> Annemehr : 
> > Why bring Dumbeldore into it?
<snip>
> 
> Del :
> DD has to be brought into it just like past abuse has to be brought 
> into the case of an abuser. You can't fairly try and understand and 
> judge an abuser if you dismiss the fact that he was abused too in 
> his youth. It's all part of the same problem, and it's a problem 
> that has to be solved before the main one gets truly solved too.
> Similarly, it's too easy to consider that the Dursleys' abuse of 
> Harry came out of the blue. They had a whole history of conflict 
> with the WW prior to Harry's arrival in their house. They had 
> suffered their own kind of abuse from the WW, they had strong 
> negative feelings about it and they didn't want *anything* to do 
> with it. In those conditions, giving them Harry was only furthering 
> the abuse. It's no surprise they took revenge the only way they 
> could : they repeated the abuse on Harry.
> Or if you prefer, see it that way : they were allergic to anything 
> magic, and someone forced a magical child in their house. It's only 
> normal that they should do their best to eradicate the allergen. I'm 
> simplifying, but you get the idea.

Annemehr:
Dumbledore has nothing to do with what the Dursleys did to Harry *once
he was in their care.*  That's what I meant.  Obviously, the Dursleys
would never have abused Harry if he'd never been brought to them.

Whether or not Harry *should* have been taken to the Dursleys' is a
question about Dumbeldore's morality.  We do not yet know exactly what
went into Dumbledore's decision, so it's difficult to analyse it, and
the same goes for the Dursleys' decision (or lack of any choice, for
all we know) to take Harry in.
> 
> > Annemehr:
<snip>
> > How to save as many lives as possible with the least loss of life
> > caused by your own actions in the face of a very real threat is a
> > completely moral question, and one which DD is having difficulty 
> > with himself.  DD apparently believes it is right to endanger or 
> > sacrifice a relatively few lives in order to save many (this would 
> > fall under the concept of a "just war," for anyone familiar with 
> > that).  Some people will disagree and say it is wrong to cause 
> > anyone's death for any reason at all.  This goes back to a point 
> > in my first paragraph where I say many people's moral 
> > disagreements are often about which aspects of morality should 
> > take precedence -- in this case the duty to defend the innocent 
> > vs. the duty to avoid causing pain and death.
> 
> Del :
> But if you cause pain and death to the innocent, then you've missed 
> your point anyway. Unless the pain of that innocent can be dismissed 
> because somehow it's less important ? Then picture this : your child 
> is abducted, raped, tortured and killed, and then his attacker is 
> arrested by the police, who had monitored him all the time. They 
> explain to you that they suspected he was a kid abuser, but they had 
> no proof, so they had to let him do it once more so they can put him 
> in prison. How do you react ?

Annemehr:
That's no example, because the pain caused goes way beyond what would
have by any stretch be necessary.  I said, "with the least loss of
life caused by your own actions."  It'd be more like this: you're at
the mall with your child when someone grabs him and begins running
away.  You are able to overtake the abductor and struggle enough that
he releases your child.  In the prcess, you have inadvertently elbowed
your child in the face and broken his nose.  You have hurt your
innocent child, and you could even foresee that he would have gotten
hurt in a struggle, but it is completely moral, because you have saved
your child from a much worse fate (and if you've also managed to
subdue the abductor, or at least mark him well enough, also saved
unknown future children from the same horrible fate).

That's a little more analogous to what Dumbledore is supposedly doing.
 And you have *not* missed your point if you cause pain or death to
the innocent, if it is the only way to prevent much more pain and
death to  innocents.  That is the "just war" idea.  I have duly noted
in my earlier post (quoted above) that only some people believe in
this; others (conscientious objectors) believe you can *never* take
any action that causes innocent casualties.  Both opinions have
sincere adherents who believe their idea is the closest to moral truth.

Del:
> There are no just wars. A people can defend themselves when 
> attacked, but there are no justification for attacking. There are no 
> justifications for killing and hurting innocent people in order to 
> punish their leaders for something they haven't done yet !!

Annemehr:
Yes, there are just wars (IMO!), and you've just given the example of
one: a nation defending itself from attack.  I would add the equally
just examples of a strong nation defending a weak one from an ongoing
invasion, and one nation defending another from its tyrannical ruler
who is killing and torturing hundreds of thousands within his own
borders.  None of these involve punishing leaders for something they
haven't done yet.  All of them will involve the side of defense
causing some unintended but inevitable casualties. VW II will involve
another variation on the theme: a people (wizarding Britain) fighting
to prevent the rise of an evil dictator, and yes, the good side is
going to cause some innocent casualties if JKR is at all realistic.
> 
> > Annemehr:
> > You've forgotten one that fits right in:
> > 
> > "There is no good and evil, there is only power, and those too 
> > weak to seek it..."
> > Professor Quirrell
> 
> Del :
> He was right, as far as human good and evil go. It's those in power 
> who decide what's good and what's evil. After all, isn't it because 
> God is the Ultimate Leader, the One with all the power, that we 
> believe He knows the ultimate good and evil ? If God was just very 
> wise with no power, if we didn't believe He can punish or reward us 
> in the end, who would listen to Him ? I repeat what I said in other 
> posts : it's always a matter of "what's in it for me ?"
> 
> Del

Annemehr:
I don't think so.  Good and evil are real, objective things.  Each
person is able to try their best to perceive what they are, if they so
 wish.  Those in power have the ability to force the conditions of
society into their own ideas of good and evil, but that doesn't
automatically give each member of the society the same idea of
morality that the powerful have.  I can't think of any society where
each and every member agrees with those in power.

God's idea of what is good is really good in itself and has nothing to
do with the fact that he has power. My own belief, of course, but I'm
quite sure of it! 

Annemehr
whose mind is getting a real workout with this thread





From delwynmarch at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 17 15:47:33 2004
From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 15:47:33 -0000
Subject: Changing Houses
In-Reply-To: <c39r9c+gqsp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c39rul+fl0q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93222

Julie wrote :
> all of Hogwarts knew via the sorting hat that Harry did not want 
> to be in Slytherin.  

Del :
This is movie contamination. In the books, the Sorting Hat 
conversations happen all inside the head of the students. This 
explains for example why the boys didn't know that the Sorting Hat 
had considered putting Hermione in Ravenclaw. Moreover, in CoS, 
Harry is very troubled by the fact that the Sorting Hat wanted to 
put him in Slytherin, it's his dark little secret, and we are told 
that he hasn't mentioned it to anyone. And as far as I can remember, 
he still hasn't.

Del




From delwynmarch at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 17 16:13:11 2004
From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 16:13:11 -0000
Subject: On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
In-Reply-To: <c39rqu+10461@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c39ten+4nve@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93223


> Annemehr:
> 
> Similarly, in the case of the Dursleys, the first thing to do is 
> put a stop to their abuse of Harry.

Del :
Why wait 15 years then ?

Annemehr :
> After that, you can try to change the underlying cause of the 
> abuse, which is in the hearts and minds of the Dursleys 
> themselves.  You may be successful, or they may flat-out
> refuse to change, but at least the abuse will have stopped.

Del :
The abuse could have stopped years ago, and it would have been much 
easier for the Dursleys to come to love a little boy than a teenager.

Annemehr : 
> At the end of OoP, Harry's friends took steps to stop the abuse.  
> I'll admit it doesn't look likely anyone's going to have a heart-
> to-heart with the Dursleys anytime soon, but perhaps they figure 
> the Dursleys should know better.

Del :
Maybe they should, but obviously they don't, and they won't if 
nobody helps them.

> Annemehr:
> Obviously, that's not what the Dursleys thought was the way to 
> raise a child, because that's not how they raised Dudley.

Del :
Dudley is their child, Harry is not. Big difference.

> Annemehr:
> Dumbledore has nothing to do with what the Dursleys did to Harry 
> *once he was in their care.*

Del :
Yes he does. That's called "follow-up". That's what he didn't do. He 
apparently just dumped Harry at the Dursleys', and forgot about him 
for 10 years. He could have put a stop to the abuse very early, but 
he didn't.

> Annemehr:
> Yes, there are just wars (IMO!), and you've just given the example 
> of one: a nation defending itself from attack.  I would add the 
> equally just examples of a strong nation defending a weak one from 
> an ongoing invasion, and one nation defending another from its 
> tyrannical ruler who is killing and torturing hundreds of 
> thousands within his own borders.

Del :
It mostly depends on whether or not that nation *asked* for help. 
Otherwise, you're overstepping your privileges and trying to 
forcefully mold the world according to your idea. It's not right, 
and very dangerous.

> Annemehr:
> 
> God's idea of what is good is really good in itself and has 
> nothing to do with the fact that he has power.

Del :
That's not what I meant. I was asking whether we would accept *now* 
His knowledge of what is Good and Evil, if we didn't know that He 
has the power to make us accept it *someday* anyway. My guess is No.

Del




From jmmears at comcast.net  Wed Mar 17 16:33:34 2004
From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 16:33:34 -0000
Subject: Happy St Patricks Day   Re: All Things Green II
In-Reply-To: <c37fbo+hfet@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c39uku+gg15@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93224

C'mon you guys, let's see you dig for the green!


Chapter 23, Christmas on the Closed Ward

Page 453, UK edition 
The curtains had been drawn back from the two beds at the end of the 
ward and two visitors were walking back down the aisle between the 
beds: a formidable-looking old witch wearing a long green dress...

Page 455, UK edition

"Well, we'd better get back." sighed Mrs. Longbottom, drawing on 
long, green gloves. 

Chapter 38, The Second War Begins

Page 764, UK edition

At the front of the group stood Mr. and Mrs Weasley, dressed in 
their muggle best, and Fred and George, who were both wearing brand-
new jackets in some lurid green, scaly material.

My point goes to Gryffindor (2 consecutive sorting hats can't be 
wrong), who I expect will win easily ;).

Jo S., who can't believe all you Slytherns, Ravenclaws and 
Hufflepuffs will let us get away with such an easy victory <bg>




From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 17 16:48:04 2004
From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (drjuliehoward)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 16:48:04 -0000
Subject: Changing Houses
In-Reply-To: <c39rul+fl0q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c39vg4+ljl1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93225

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Doriane" <delwynmarch at y...> 
wrote:
> Julie wrote :
> > all of Hogwarts knew via the sorting hat that Harry did not want 
> > to be in Slytherin.  
> 
> Del :
> This is movie contamination. In the books, the Sorting Hat 
> conversations happen all inside the head of the students. This 
> explains for example why the boys didn't know that the Sorting Hat 
> had considered putting Hermione in Ravenclaw. Moreover, in CoS, 
> Harry is very troubled by the fact that the Sorting Hat wanted to 
> put him in Slytherin, it's his dark little secret, and we are told 
> that he hasn't mentioned it to anyone. And as far as I can 
remember, 
> he still hasn't.
> 
> Del

Thanks for the clarification.  It has been so long that I had read 
it (and my 3 year old loves the movies so we watch them ALL the 
time) that I got those two mixed up.  Despite this one flaw, I still 
stand by my original pov. that Harry could not switch to Slytherin 
and accomplish the task of uniting the houses.




From peckham at cyberramp.net  Wed Mar 17 16:55:25 2004
From: peckham at cyberramp.net (luna_loco)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 16:55:25 -0000
Subject: Happy St Patricks Day   (Re: All Things Green II)
In-Reply-To: <c39uku+gg15@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c39vtt+5jhg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93226

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "serenadust" <jmmears at c...> wrote:
> Jo S., who can't believe all you Slytherns, Ravenclaws and 
> Hufflepuffs will let us get away with such an easy victory <bg>

With a challenge like that...

Ch 3, The Advance Guard
Page 55 (US):
"Second signal, let's go!" said Lupin loudly, as more sparks, green
this time, exploded high above them.

Ch 36, The Only One He Ever Feared
Page 815 (US):
Fawkes swooped down in front of Dumbledore, opened his beak wide, and
swallowed the jet of green light whole.

And finally, as the first and last references to green have already
been claimed, the reference closest to the middle of the book.
Ch 20, Hagrid Tale
Page 434-435 (US):
Professor Umbridge was standing in the doorway wearing her green tweed
cloak and a matching hat with earflaps.

Allen
Ravenclaw

P.S.  Still plenty of green for everyone to claim.




From kiatrier at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 17 16:56:36 2004
From: kiatrier at yahoo.com (Kia)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 16:56:36 -0000
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <c3a004+t4cr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93227

(Kia's comments)
>I think, if Petunia would have known for sure that Harry would
>inherit his parents' magical talents and end up in the WW as its
>saviour, she wouldn't have been so surprised when the
>Hogwarts Letter finally came.


>(Kimberly's comments)
>But it doesn't say that she was surprised. What it says is "....not 
>knowing
>he would be woken a few hours' time by Mrs. Dursley's scream 
>as she opened the
>front door to put out the milk bottles,...."

Kia

You are quoting the wrong surprise moment:

"Who'd be writing to you?" sneered Uncle Vernon, shaking the 
letter open with one hand and glancing at it. His face went from 
red to green faster than a set of traffic lights. And it didn't stop 
there. Within seconds it was the grayish white of old porridge.

"P-P-Petunia!" he gasped.

Dudley tried to grab the letter to read it, but Uncle Vernon held it
high out of his reach. Aunt Petunia took it curiously and read the 
first line. For a moment it looked as though she might faint. She 
clutched her throat and made a choking noise.

"Vernon! Oh my goodness -- Vernon!"

They stared at each other, seeming to have forgotten that Harry 
and Dudley were still in the room.


Petunia doesn't expect this letter and she should have, if she 
had been made so very aware of Harry's going back to the WW.


Carol:

>If Petunia knew that the protection given
>to Harry extended to her and Dudley but not to Vernon (because 
>he doesn't share Harry's blood), she would have a reason to 
>conceal the full truth from Vernon without either blackmail or 
>magical talent in any Dursley being involved.

Where is the bang in this scenario? And Petunia isn't totally 
stupid, if this scenario above was true, why would she even 
agree with taking Harry in? The Dursleys themselves are 
completely uninteresting to magical madmen, but Harry isn't. 
The Dursleys wouldn't need protection if Harry wasn't there. 
Unless there is something about the Evanses that Rowling 
hasn't told us so far.

But IMO it would bang a lot more if Dudley was magical to 
degree, and it his reaction to the encounter with the dementors 
would make a lot more sense in the big picture.

Of course Dudley could have remembered getting beaten up in 
Smeltings, but I don't think he was. 


Kia 




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Wed Mar 17 16:58:38 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 16:58:38 -0000
Subject: Changing Houses
In-Reply-To: <c3942g+csta@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3a03u+r2sf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93228

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rgbmcl" <rgbmcl at h...> wrote:
> I'm not sure where I read this - it was definately in a JKR 
interview 
> I just don't remember which one - but it was mentioned that 
someone 
> would be changing houses in the next couple books.  This brings up 
a 
> lot of interesting possibilites.
>snip< 


It seems this came up before, but I'm not sure if anyone was able to 
quote a source.  Does anyone else remember this?  
Potioncat




From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Wed Mar 17 16:58:12 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 17 Mar 2004 17:58:12 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] "Snape's Job"
Message-ID: <20040317165812.EE35B2A6450@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 93229

> Sigune:
 
> What on earth is Snape so (almost) satisfied about? 

I agree with the previous posers about value of recognition of Snape's importance. Also, there can be one more reason, which flashed through my mind, when I was reading the scene for the first time:
"Mr. Potter is FINALLY thinking ON HIS OWN and without help of Miss Granger! Oh frabjous day!"

Cheers, Viridis
________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!



From annemehr at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 17 17:15:23 2004
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 17:15:23 -0000
Subject: On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
In-Reply-To: <c39ten+4nve@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3a13b+cnsu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93230

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Doriane" <delwynmarch at y...> wrote:
> 
> > Annemehr:
> > 
> > Similarly, in the case of the Dursleys, the first thing to do is 
> > put a stop to their abuse of Harry.
> 
> Del :
> Why wait 15 years then ?

Annemehr:
They shouldn't have.  Better late than never, though.  Of course, for
the first ten or eleven years, only Dumbledore really knew about it.
> 
> Annemehr :
> > After that, you can try to change the underlying cause of the 
> > abuse, which is in the hearts and minds of the Dursleys 
> > themselves.  You may be successful, or they may flat-out
> > refuse to change, but at least the abuse will have stopped.
> 
> Del :
> The abuse could have stopped years ago, and it would have been much 
> easier for the Dursleys to come to love a little boy than a teenager.

Annemehr:
True.  See above.
> 
> Annemehr : 
> > At the end of OoP, Harry's friends took steps to stop the abuse.  
> > I'll admit it doesn't look likely anyone's going to have a heart-
> > to-heart with the Dursleys anytime soon, but perhaps they figure 
> > the Dursleys should know better.
> 
> Del :
> Maybe they should, but obviously they don't, and they won't if 
> nobody helps them.

Annemehr:
I'm not at all sure they don't know better.

> 
> > Annemehr:
> > Obviously, that's not what the Dursleys thought was the way to 
> > raise a child, because that's not how they raised Dudley.
> 
> Del :
> Dudley is their child, Harry is not. Big difference.

Annemehr:
It's no difference at all.  "How to raise a child" is a general idea.

> 
> > Annemehr:
> > Dumbledore has nothing to do with what the Dursleys did to Harry 
> > *once he was in their care.*
> 
> Del :
> Yes he does. That's called "follow-up". That's what he didn't do. He 
> apparently just dumped Harry at the Dursleys', and forgot about him 
> for 10 years. He could have put a stop to the abuse very early, but 
> he didn't.

Annemehr:
Sorry, I didn't make myself clear.  Dumbledore has nothing to do with
the Dursleys' decision to treat Harry as they did.  If he had stopped
their abuse earlier, he would have merely *overridden* their wrong
decision, but the Dursleys would still have been responsible for
making that decision.
> 
> > Annemehr:
> > Yes, there are just wars (IMO!), and you've just given the example 
> > of one: a nation defending itself from attack.  I would add the 
> > equally just examples of a strong nation defending a weak one from 
> > an ongoing invasion, and one nation defending another from its 
> > tyrannical ruler who is killing and torturing hundreds of 
> > thousands within his own borders.
> 
> Del :
> It mostly depends on whether or not that nation *asked* for help. 
> Otherwise, you're overstepping your privileges and trying to 
> forcefully mold the world according to your idea. It's not right, 
> and very dangerous.

Annemehr:
Well, obviously, the oppressive government is never going to ask to be
put down, but oppressed people and the people and governments of
invaded nations generally do ask for help.  And yes, it's all very
dangerous, but unbridled tyranny and oppression are more so.
> 
> > Annemehr:
> > 
> > God's idea of what is good is really good in itself and has 
> > nothing to do with the fact that he has power.
> 
> Del :
> That's not what I meant. I was asking whether we would accept *now* 
> His knowledge of what is Good and Evil, if we didn't know that He 
> has the power to make us accept it *someday* anyway. My guess is No.
> 
> Del

Annemehr:
I doubt that.  There are very many people who do not believe in that
type of God, or in God at all, who care very much about good and evil.
 Therefore I see no reason to assume that the people who believe in a
God who cares about good and evil are merely trying to avoid punishment.

Annemehr




From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Wed Mar 17 17:31:51 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 17 Mar 2004 18:31:51 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Different moral standards (was : On the other hand)
Message-ID: <20040317173151.93CDB2A6443@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 93231

Since Del covered most of the other points, I'd like to stress just two.

> Geoff:
> That is a contradiction in terms. An absolute is an absolute is an 
> absolute. What is an absolute in France is an absolute in the UK is 
> an absolute in the US.

Unfortunately this absolute exists only in the head of the person. Otherwise we wouldn't have religious wars - or the Nazis & Communists you mentioned below. Beacuse yes, they had their "absolutes" (or small, but influential group of them had).

You may think that there is an absolute moral code - but the problem starts when you try impose it on other person who doesn't agree. In the very end it must end in the "who's not with us is against us" position.


> Geoff:
> Hm. I find it difficult to believe that biology or social strategy 
> make me prefer walking to being a couch potato or preferring 
> raspberries to bananas. I am sure there are many of our posters who 
> will agree with me that we are humans created by God while some may 
> not go all the way with me but still accept the idea of a higher 
> being rather than suggesting we are a random error in the fabric of 
> the universe.

Well, God created us together with whole our biology luggage, instincts and strategies. He "programmed" us to some extent :)
Richard Dawkins "The Selfish Gene" and "The Blind Watchmaker" make good reading on the subject, even if one chooses to disagree in the end :)
Also "The Red Queen" by  Matt Ridley. 
Have fun :)

Cheers, Viridis
________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!



From snapesmate at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 17 17:32:51 2004
From: snapesmate at hotmail.com (snapesmate)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 17:32:51 -0000
Subject: Snape the Gryffindor or Ravenclaw?!
In-Reply-To: <c39oqh+4j9j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3a243+br83@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93232

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Doriane" <delwynmarch at y...> 
wrote:
><snip> 
> Del :
> Would that mean that Luna (a Ravenclaw if I'm not mistaken) is in a 
> gang of Gryffindors ? 
> 
> Del

Yes!  You could in fact, say this.  Especially knowing the way JKR 
loves to carefully word things.  That is why I started wondering 
about Snape's house, particularly after rereading Sirius' remark 
about Snape hanging out with the "older Slytherins".  I can't help 
but wonder if they knew about Voldemort while they were in their 7th 
year and were possibly keeping an eye out for prospective co-
supporters (even if they were not yet DEs, I am sure they were aware 
of folks "backing" Voldemort's plans).  Who better than an 
impressionable young student with a talent for the dark arts and not 
many/any other friends?  Although, I am sure we will find out Snape 
is related to either Malfoy Sr. or the Blacks, or both considering 
all the WW inbreeding of "pure-blood" fanatics.
Lynnette, who thinks Snape IS a good guy, even if he is NOT a nice
guy!

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterverseofadults




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Mar 17 17:58:27 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 17:58:27 -0000
Subject: The Dursleys *are* guilty (was : On the other hand )
In-Reply-To: <c39q1t+10mg3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3a3k3+bvau@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93233

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Doriane" 
<delwynmarch at y...> wrote:

> I'm not trying to discharge the Dursleys. I'm trying to add guilt 
on  other people who are partly responsible for the Dursleys' 
> *continuous* abuse of Harry. If DD had popped up next to 
Dudley the first time he hit Harry, or next to Petunia when she 
didn't give him enough to eat, or next to Vernon when he gave 
Harry one of Dudley's discarded clothes, I'm pretty sure they 
wouldn't have done it  *again* !<

And should Dumbledore also have popped up at the Burrow  to 
stop Fred and George when they turned Ron's teddy into a 
spider or used his puffskein for a bludger? Should he have 
written a stern note to Molly about Ron's second hand robes and 
broken wand? Should he have told Granny Longbottom that 
while Neville is not dangerously overweight the school would like 
to see him fed a bit less?   I suspect if he had, they'd have told 
him to bugger off. The Dursleys would do the same if they dared.

 Dumbledore could not have made any impression on the 
Dursleys except by force, and that would make him no better 
than they are.

Pippin






From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Wed Mar 17 18:04:23 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 17 Mar 2004 19:04:23 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How can LV win the war in three weeks
Message-ID: <20040317180423.1B1542A643D@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 93234


> Neri:
> I attempted to take care of the power problem in #92920 [...]
> The theme of magic as manifestation of psych is a very common clich? 
> in fantasy books. I like JKR writing specifically because her brand 
> of magic is a bit more mechanistic than that. It is not enough to be 
> strong willed in order to be a powerful wizard, you also need to be 
> intelligent, and magic is often applied in clever and unexpected 
> ways

I've read the post :) I just stressed the combination of several factors, power of will, being IMHO, the most important - specifically in case of Imperius. I was not saying the strentgh of will is the only source of wizard's power.

> > Viridis:
> <Snip>
> > Well, yes, as much as I like JKR's work, she is not a world-
> creator. She basically substituted "technology and science" 
> with "magic". So the similarites are not surprising. She did it with 
> great grace, to be sure.
> 
> Neri:
> I agree only in part. Very few made-up universes are really original. 

I should have been more specific. You're absolutely right about "lack of the originality" of many works. Eco called it "borrowed or stolen worlds" - namely authors "borrowing" basic assumptions from our world, leaving most of the things undescribed. If they leave something "out" it simply means "the same as in our world".
As for JKR - every author has his/her strenghts and weakneses. JKR Is a briliant storyteller and I think she creates really interesting characters. Her world however is very much "borrowed", is not the best part of her writing. E.g. she seems to be really bad at maths :) so the assumptions about wizard economics or population derived from the scanty data presented lead to very inconsistent results (which guess has been already discussed on this list many times over).

My example of good "world cretaor" is Ursula K. LeGuin - in her "Earthsea" (which accidentally was often listed in the "most hated books" forum of FA, which proves her narrative is not so easy to accept), magic is based on the power of name (not an original idea in itself). But in effect we got quite different (in several important aspects) society than our own, whereas WW is very much like ours, down to many details.
These details are sometimes the funniest things in HPWorld, all these small tricks here and there.

Cheers, Viridis
________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!



From willsonkmom at msn.com  Wed Mar 17 17:56:53 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 17:56:53 -0000
Subject: Snape the Gryffindor or Ravenclaw?!
In-Reply-To: <c3a243+br83@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3a3h5+kcoj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93235

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snapesmate" <snapesmate at h...> 
wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Doriane" <delwynmarch at y...> 
> wrote:
> ><snip> 
> > Del :
> > Would that mean that Luna (a Ravenclaw if I'm not mistaken) is 
in a 
> > gang of Gryffindors ? 
> > 
> > Del
> 
> Yes!  You could in fact, say this.  Especially knowing the way JKR 
> loves to carefully word things.  That is why I started wondering 
> about Snape's house, particularly after rereading Sirius' remark 
> about Snape hanging out with the "older Slytherins".  I can't help 
> but wonder if they knew about Voldemort while they were in their 
7th 
> year and were possibly keeping an eye out for prospective co-
> supporters (even if they were not yet DEs, I am sure they were 
aware 
> of folks "backing" Voldemort's plans).  Who better than an 
> impressionable young student with a talent for the dark arts and 
not 
> many/any other friends?  Although, I am sure we will find out 
Snape 
> is related to either Malfoy Sr. or the Blacks, or both considering 
> all the WW inbreeding of "pure-blood" fanatics.
> Lynnette, who thinks Snape IS a good guy, even if he is NOT a nice
> guy!
> 


Potioncat:
 Except that Luna isn't in a gang of Gryffindors, she's in 
Dumbledore's Army which has three different houses in it.  

And yes, if Severus had been in say Hufflepuff, but hung out with a 
group of Slytherins the sentence would still be correct. But, in the 
overall conversation it makes more sense that Serius was saying 
Snape was in Slytherin at a time that many Slytherins were becoming 
DE's.

Have you come across any canon that says Severus was hanging around 
older students? The portion I found doesn't say the others were 
older than he was. Of course, he would be familiar with older 
students, just like Harry knows Percy and Oliver Wood.  And the 
older students who became DE's would certainly know who to approach 
about joining the club.  After all, we're told Snape was famous for 
his curses.

I think we'll discover a family connection to someone as well.  He 
sure sounds just like old Phineas if you ask me.

Potioncat  




From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Wed Mar 17 18:33:10 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 17 Mar 2004 19:33:10 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Theory: Inflation in the wizard economy
Message-ID: <20040317183310.93CF42A6443@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 93236

> Alshain: 
You make several good points, Steve, but at least when it 
> comes to wands and omnioculars, I don't think the Muggle-world 
> analogy holds [...] A wand in the Potter world is a hand-made, 
> unique magical instrument for channelling and amplifying a witch or 
> wizard's inner magic, with a core of a magical substance difficult to 
> obtain. [...]

I also always thought the wands are badly underpriced, especially, when there seem to be very few wandmakers around. Olliveander for some (magical?) reason decided to barely make a living :)
 
As for the Stevie's list I found and item which I think doesn't fit:
 Daily Prophet (with delivery) costs 5 knuts= 6,5 US Cents, which seem to me much too cheap. 

There is also a contradiction with large number of "very expensive" Lockhart's books and Mrs. Weasley withdrawing all their savings, whcih couldn't amount to more than 3 (5 at the best) galleons.Of course she had to have some money on herself and some things were second-hand, but still.

IMHO, even inflation doesn't really explain the changes of prices, especially with basic stability of WW. Goblin bankers wouldn't be interested in destroying the financial security of the WW, they'd be hit back very hard, too. 
So I think it's the JKR math which is at fault. Wizard economics suffers more from it than from inflation :) BTW, house points also lost their value between PS and the next books.

Cheers, Viridis
________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!



From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Wed Mar 17 18:45:55 2004
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 10:45:55 -0800
Subject: Binns (was: Re: Perkins again-a minor(?) point)
In-Reply-To: <c32blq+qlif@eGroups.com>
References: <c32blq+qlif@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <121564846.20040317104555@mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93237


Sunday, March 14, 2004, 11:26:50 AM, Eustace_Scrubb wrote:

E>   "'Yes,' said Professor Binns, clearly very much wrong-footed. 
E> '...yes, hospital wing...well, off you go, then, Perkins...'"

This is just a quick side note, but it occurs to me that Binns may be
the only being in the whole WW who doesn't know who Harry Potter is!

-- 
Dave




From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 17 18:39:45 2004
From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 18:39:45 -0000
Subject: Different moral standards (was : On the other hand)
In-Reply-To: <c37vs2+5rhj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3a61h+tdrj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93238

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" 
<gbannister10 at a...> wrote:

> Geoff:
> Hm. I find it difficult to believe that biology or social strategy 
> make me prefer walking to being a couch potato or preferring 
> raspberries to bananas.

"K"

I can assure you it's not biology or social strategy that tells me I 
must have chocolate and fast, fatty foods. It's all my choice. As is 
everything else I do in life.


Geoff:
>I am sure there are many of our posters who 
> will agree with me that we are humans created by God...

Oh, I absolutely agree!

Actually, I just wanted to say your post was great and I agree with 
99% of what you said. 

"K"

*surely it's not biology that makes Voldy murder*




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Wed Mar 17 18:51:09 2004
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 10:51:09 -0800
Subject: Wormtail's Debt? (was: Re: And then there were none.)
In-Reply-To: <c30rh0+4f4q@eGroups.com>
References: <c30rh0+4f4q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <576161718.20040317105109@mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93239


Saturday, March 13, 2004, 9:45:04 PM, greatelderone wrote:

g> I agree Lupin is going to buy it. Why else would one need a silver 
g> hand for, but to kill werewolves.

Am I the the only one who is really, REALLY finding it impossible to
believe that there's ANYTHING Wormtail could possibly do to make
Harry "glad he saved his life", as Dumbledore says?  Yes, he may
someday reciprocate and save Harry's life, but after all the damage
he's done and probably will do before that day comes, I don't think
Harry will ever be happy or grateful about it.

-- 
Dave




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Mar 17 19:16:24 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 19:16:24 -0000
Subject: Wormtail's Debt? (was: Re: And then there were none.)
In-Reply-To: <576161718.20040317105109@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <c3a868+l19n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93240

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Dave Hardenbrook 
<DaveH47 at m...> wrote:
> 
> Saturday, March 13, 2004, 9:45:04 PM, greatelderone wrote:
> 
> g> I agree Lupin is going to buy it. Why else would one need a 
silver  g> hand for, but to kill werewolves.
> 
> Am I the the only one who is really, REALLY finding it 
impossible to believe that there's ANYTHING Wormtail could 
possibly do to make Harry "glad he saved his life", as 
Dumbledore says?  Yes, he may someday reciprocate and save 
Harry's life, but after all the damage he's done and probably will 
do before that day comes, I don't think Harry will ever be happy or 
grateful about it.<<

What if Wormtail makes it possible for Harry to destroy 
Voldemort? Or if Wormtail saves someone whom Harry loves? 
And, well, you know what I think about Lupin.  I  think  we'll find 
he's  taken quite a number of innocent lives.

Pippin
The ESE!Lupin post is 39362




From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Wed Mar 17 19:22:07 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 19:22:07 -0000
Subject: "Snape's Job"
In-Reply-To: <c3977e+ebvj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3a8gv+gq6p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93241

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severelysigune" <severelysigune at y...> wrote:
> 
> I quote:
> <'That is just as well, Potter,' said Snape coldly, 'because you are 
> neither special nor important, and it is not up to you to find out 
> what the Dark lord is saying to his Death Eaters.'
> 'No - that's your job, isn't it?' Harry shot at him.
> He had not meant to say it; it had burst out of him in temper. For a 
> long moment they stared at each other, Harry convinced he had gone 
> too far. But there was a curious, almost satisfied expression on 
> Snape's face when he answered.
> 'Yes, Potter,' he said, his eyes glinting. 'That is my job. Now, if 
> you are ready, we will start again.'>
> 
> What on earth is Snape so (almost) satisfied about? Snape being 
> Snape, I suddenly started to wonder if he is pleased that Harry 
> should think he is spying whereas in fact he isn't (?!) - but that 
> does not seem to make much sense to me. And I find his suddenly 
> glinting eyes quite alarming. Any theories? Please?


I'm in a dilemma about this little cameo myself, but IMO it's possible
that Snape is playing games with Harry.

There has been no definite confirmation about what Sevvy actually
does for the Order. Most posters (plus Harry, Ron, Hermione etc)
assume that he's a spy. But again, as many posters have asked time
and again - how the hell could he get away with it? Why on earth
would Voldy or the DEs  trust him? If we think "Ah!  Double agent."
then those in positions of power in the Potterverse would have
no difficulty in thinking the exact same thing. I wish I could come
up with a reasonable alternative, but there's no evidence to base a
theory on.

This scene is the only instance so far that could (perhaps) nudge 
us into trying try to think of alternatives.

Based on Snape's character, it could go like  this:
What Snape does is kept secret and he doesn't go around advertising
his activities  for the Order, and he's certainly not going to tell Harry,
his bete noir, what he's up to. Harry guesses, but he's wrong. Snape's
expression would be typical of the man - "Wrong again, Potter. But
I'll let you stew in your ignorance. If only you knew the truth!"

Because if he really is a spy, why would he admit it? Especially to
Harry, who he  considers unable to control his mind or his feelings
and would, in Snape's mind, be a most unsafe confidant. In these
circumstances Sevvy would be happy to mislead Harry -  and us!

Kneasy




From meriaugust at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 17 19:23:07 2004
From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 19:23:07 -0000
Subject: Wormtail's Debt? (was: Re: And then there were none.)
In-Reply-To: <576161718.20040317105109@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <c3a8ir+f1ag@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93242

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Dave Hardenbrook 
<DaveH47 at m...> wrote:
> 
> Saturday, March 13, 2004, 9:45:04 PM, greatelderone wrote:
> 
> g> I agree Lupin is going to buy it. Why else would one need a 
silver 
> g> hand for, but to kill werewolves.
> 
> Am I the the only one who is really, REALLY finding it impossible 
to
> believe that there's ANYTHING Wormtail could possibly do to make
> Harry "glad he saved his life", as Dumbledore says?  Yes, he may
> someday reciprocate and save Harry's life, but after all the damage
> he's done and probably will do before that day comes, I don't think
> Harry will ever be happy or grateful about it.
> 
> -- 
> Dave

I don't know about that. After all, the Sorting Hat (who by his own 
admission has never been wrong, and according to JKR in the World 
Book Day chat, you can trust the Sorting Hat to be trustworthy) put 
Wormtail in Gryffindor for *some* reason. He obviously comes off as 
more of a weak, sneaky, ratlike coward now, but there must be some 
tiny, miniscule, insignificant, long dormant spark of Gryffindor 
bravery in him which allowed him to be put in that house instead of 
Hufflepuff or Slytherin. Whether or nor Harry will be "glad" that 
Wormtail's life was saved or not, I don't know, but I am sure that 
he will be grateful for it sometime in the future. 
Meri - who believes that if there is one life that Harry will regret 
was ever saved it will probably be Sanpe's 




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 17 19:34:12 2004
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 19:34:12 -0000
Subject: Wormtail's Debt? (was: Re: And then there were none.)
In-Reply-To: <c3a868+l19n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3a97k+rk38@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93243

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Dave Hardenbrook 
> <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:
> > 
> > Saturday, March 13, 2004, 9:45:04 PM, greatelderone wrote:
> > 
> > g> I agree Lupin is going to buy it. Why else would one need a 
> silver  g> hand for, but to kill werewolves.

> > 
> >>>> Am I the the only one who is really, REALLY finding it 
> impossible to believe that there's ANYTHING Wormtail could 
> possibly do to make Harry "glad he saved his life",.<<<<<


> 
> What if Wormtail makes it possible for Harry to destroy 
> Voldemort? Or if Wormtail saves someone whom Harry loves? 
> ...edited...
> 
> Pippin

bboy_mn

Or what if he slams his silver hand into Voldemort's chest and rips
his heart out, holds it in front of Voldemort's face, and squashes it
like a bug?

I think there are way that Wormtail can redeem himself, but like all
trangressions, what he has done can never be undone. My personal
prediction is that Voldemort will capture Harry and/or one or more of
Harry's friends and hold them prisoner. Harry will come to rescue them
and Peter/Wormtail will help them escape. For Voldemort to capture and
hold someone Harry loves seem like almost a given before the end of
the series. Although, that is a rather predictable as well as standard
plot element. We'll see.

I sometimes wonder if Voldemort has guarded himself mostly from death
by magical means? There are several theories out there (not mine) that
predict Voldemort death by such muggle things as gun fire, knife
(Godric's sword) or bombs.

Oh well, only five more years and we will have all the answer.

Just a thought.

bboy_mn






From gbannister10 at aol.com  Wed Mar 17 19:35:43 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 19:35:43 -0000
Subject: Changing Houses
In-Reply-To: <c39rul+fl0q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3a9af+vsk9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93244

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Doriane" <delwynmarch at y...> 
wrote:

> Del :
> Moreover, in CoS, Harry is very troubled by the fact that the 
> Sorting Hat wanted to put him in Slytherin, it's his dark little 
> secret, and we are told that he hasn't mentioned it to anyone. And 
> as far as I can remember, he still hasn't.

Geoff: Yes he has. He told Dumbledore.

"'Professor,' he started again after a moment,'the Sorting Hat told 
me I'd - I'd havedome well in Slytherin.....'"

(COS "Dobby's Reward" p. 244-45 UK edition)




From kkearney at students.miami.edu  Wed Mar 17 19:35:23 2004
From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 19:35:23 -0000
Subject: Wormtail's Debt? (was: Re: And then there were none.)
In-Reply-To: <c3a8ir+f1ag@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3a99r+ugpl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93245

Dave wrote:
 
> > Am I the the only one who is really, REALLY finding it impossible 
> to
> > believe that there's ANYTHING Wormtail could possibly do to make
> > Harry "glad he saved his life", as Dumbledore says? 

And Meri replied:

> I don't know about that. After all, the Sorting Hat ... put 
> Wormtail in Gryffindor for *some* reason. He obviously comes off as 
> more of a weak, sneaky, ratlike coward now, but there must be some 
> tiny, miniscule, insignificant, long dormant spark of Gryffindor 
> bravery in him which allowed him to be put in that house instead of 
> Hufflepuff or Slytherin. 

Yes, but bravery is hardly synonymous with goodness.  Despite his 
whining, Wormtail has shown moments of bravery: spying on the 
original Order, not panicking when he met Bertha Jorkins, cutting off 
his hand, etc.  None of these were admirable actions, and it can be 
argued that most of them are motivated by his fear of Voldemort, but 
nonetheless they did require that "spark if Gryffindor bravery" 
lurking inside Peter.  

- Corinth 




From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Wed Mar 17 19:47:02 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 19:47:02 -0000
Subject: Wormtail's Debt? (was: Re: And then there were none.)
In-Reply-To: <c3a8ir+f1ag@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3a9vm+eq36@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93246

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" <meriaugust at y...> wrote:
> 
> I don't know about that. After all, the Sorting Hat (who by his own 
> admission has never been wrong, and according to JKR in the World 
> Book Day chat, you can trust the Sorting Hat to be trustworthy) put 
> Wormtail in Gryffindor for *some* reason. 

Oh yes and oh no.
Yes the Sorting Hat put Peter in Gryffindor for a reason and no, JKR
did  not quite say that the Sorting Hat was trustworthy - she said
it was *sincere* which is not the same. It does what it *thinks* is 
right or best or whatever. It sincerely believed that Harry should be
in Slytherin and reminded him of the fact in CoS -  is it right or 
wrong?

Sir Nicholas  tells us that the Hat has issued warnings before, after
it urged the different Houses to combine. What if it has acted 
according to it's 'conscience'? That would explain why Harry 
(Slytherin), Hermione (Ravenclaw) and Neville (?Hufflepuff) have
joined Ron in Gryffindor. Hermione tells us that it thought about 
putting her in Ravenclaw and it spent a long time on Neville too.

Go  further - suppose it has tried the same ploy before - with
the Marauders. James (Gryffindor), Sirius (Slytherin), Remus
(Ravenclaw), Peter (Hufflepuff). 

There's also an outside  possibility that it might be being
influenced in it's decisions. That would be interesting.

Kneasy





From gbannister10 at aol.com  Wed Mar 17 20:06:35 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 20:06:35 -0000
Subject: Different moral standards (was : On the other hand)
In-Reply-To: <20040317173151.93CDB2A6443@front.interia.pl>
Message-ID: <c3ab4b+7ndu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93247

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, bufo_viridis at i... wrote:
> Since Del covered most of the other points, I'd like to stress just 

Viridis:
You may think that there is an absolute moral code - but the problem 
starts when you try impose it on other person who doesn't agree. 

Geoff:
I have never said that there is an absolute moral code. I have said 
that there are moral absolutes such as not killing and not stealing, 
but moral structures go beyond those which are absolute... Within 
different cultures, there are different ethnic and moral requirements 
such as the treatment of women and children in some cases. Many 
cultures have dietary rules which verge on a moral strcuture; the 
Jews consider pork to be unclean for example. It is that which 
creates the diversity of beliefs and attitudes but I still hold that, 
at base, there are certain moral absolutes which are often part of 
conscience. I think it may have been Del (if not, my apologies to the 
real poster) who pointed out that if a person decides to ignore these 
basic instincts, after a while they become desensitised to them.  
Also, the situation obtains where a culture will impose this on its 
members. We see the cases of soldiers involved in atrocities in, say 
Bosnia or Iraq, who appear to be oblivious to the moral dimension. A 
classic case of this is in Northern Ireland where generations of 
Loyalist and Republican children were brainwashed by their parents 
and so the spiral of violence remained as they became adult; it has 
taken tragedies such as Omagh where both communities were caught up 
in events before the morla values of this attitude are questioned.

The fact that someone does not accept or follow basic moral issues 
does not mean that the absolutes do not exist. I believe that they 
exist to make our world work in the same way that there are physical 
absoluted without which the universe would not exist. We have free 
will and can exercise that to accept thee absolutes or to spurn them 
and accept any comeback that may result. 

Coming to the Wizarding world, I believe that the Dursleys did know 
that they were being, at the very least, unfair to Harry. I get the 
impression, when reading Philosopher's Stone, that Vernon takes a 
particular delight in being nasty to Harry; he does it with malice 
aforethought. I think that he, like Dudley, is a bully, not 
physically but verbally and mentally. I would be interested to find 
out how he treats any staff under him at work.....




From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 17 20:13:48 2004
From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (Phyllis)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 20:13:48 -0000
Subject: ADMIN:  Touchy Subjects and OT Posts
Message-ID: <c3abhs+ho8p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93248

Greetings from Hexquarters!

Religion, politics, and cultural differences are all acceptable
topics per se, but please be sensitive to the fact that we do not all
share the same views on these issues. It is asking for a flame war
when one makes generalizations about faith, the Holocaust or genocide.

Please tread with care; we are all grownups and capable of expressing
our ideas without being insulting or dismissive.

Also, a reminder that off-topic posts are not permitted on this list.
We require that posts to the main list make a canon point and discuss
the words or works of JKR. We have an entire HPFGU-OTChatter list for
off-topic posts. It's a fun and friendly place where people enjoy
talking about all sorts of things, and it can be found at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter

For further information, check out our posting guidelines at:

http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin/

Thank you,

Poppy Elf
for the list admin team





From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 17 14:23:27 2004
From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (Ms Mo Me)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 06:23:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: LV knows about the order
In-Reply-To: <1079514156.17648.43652.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040317142327.61174.qmail@web13507.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93249

I apologise if this has already been written.  I
haven't been able to read all the posts in the last
week, but I remember this topic comming up a few times
to whether LV knows there is an order or not.

While re-reading OotP, I came across the part where
Moody shows HP the old picture of the order, and
Wormtail was on it.  Wormtail was a member, so, we can
most definitely asume the Wormtail has told LV about
it, if he didn't know already.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam
http://mail.yahoo.com




From ruminalus_ficus at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 17 15:38:23 2004
From: ruminalus_ficus at yahoo.com (ruminalus_ficus)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 15:38:23 -0000
Subject: Changing Houses
In-Reply-To: <c3942g+csta@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c39rdf+ohdp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93250

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rgbmcl" <rgbmcl at h...> wrote:
> I'm not sure where I read this - it was definately in a JKR 
interview 
> I just don't remember which one - but it was mentioned that 
someone 
> would be changing houses in the next couple books.  This brings up 
a 
> lot of interesting possibilites.  My personal favorite:  Harry to 
> Slytherin.  There's been this theme of the persecution of Harry 
> running through all the books, and this would continue it nicely.  
> Also, we've all been looking for the character who's supposed to 
> unite the school, bringing Slytherin into the fold as it were.  
Who 
> better than Harry?  The main problem I have with this theory, 
though, 
> is that I can't really see any plausible reason for the shift of 
> Harry to Slytherin.
<snip>
I don't believe that this is 
> only a minor plot point.  As Dumbledore said - its the choices we 
> make .... i.e. the changes we encounter...  I think this ability 
to 
> change, to reconstitute oneself, will end up playing a major role 
in 
> the plot of the series.  Give me your solutions to this riddle, 
I'm 
> still a bit dissatisfied with mine.

Interesting idea.

I could see Luna switching to Gryffindor.  She has already shown 
many of the qualities of the Gryffindor students by helping Harry 
break into Umbridge's office and the DoM, and by wearing that 
rediculous hat to the quidditch match.  Also, she doesn't seem to be 
very well liked in Ravenclaw (other students are hiding her things), 
so she probably doesn't feel a great attachment to the house.  
Knowing that she has friends in Gryffindor may be enough to convince 
her to switch.

-RF





From ruminalus_ficus at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 17 19:18:44 2004
From: ruminalus_ficus at yahoo.com (ruminalus_ficus)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 19:18:44 -0000
Subject: Binns (was: Re: Perkins again-a minor(?) point)
In-Reply-To: <121564846.20040317104555@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <c3a8ak+va93@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93251


Eustace_Scrubb wrote:
> E>   "'Yes,' said Professor Binns, clearly very much wrong-footed. 
> E> '...yes, hospital wing...well, off you go, then, Perkins...'"

Dave:
> This is just a quick side note, but it occurs to me that Binns may 
be the only being in the whole WW who doesn't know who Harry Potter 
is! >>>


It may just be that he has been there teaching the same things so 
long that he can't remember what year it is.  In any case, he 
probably never learns the names of most of his students, since his 
lessons consist of nothing but lecture.

I wonder if "Perkins" in that quote is the same Perkins who works 
with Arthur Weasley at the Ministry.  It's interesting how things 
like that creep into the story.

-RF





From pt4ever at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 17 16:16:04 2004
From: pt4ever at yahoo.com (JoAnna)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 16:16:04 -0000
Subject: Changing Houses
In-Reply-To: <c39rul+fl0q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c39tk4+a7k2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93252

> Del :
> This is movie contamination. In the books, the Sorting Hat 
> conversations happen all inside the head of the students. This 
> explains for example why the boys didn't know that the Sorting Hat 
> had considered putting Hermione in Ravenclaw. Moreover, in CoS, 
> Harry is very troubled by the fact that the Sorting Hat wanted to 
> put him in Slytherin, it's his dark little secret, and we are told 
> that he hasn't mentioned it to anyone. And as far as I can 
remember, 
> he still hasn't.

JoAnna:

Actually, he told Dumbledore at the end of CoS; that's when 
Dumbledore made his famous, "It's our choices rather than our 
abilities that define who we are" speech and showed him that the 
sword said Godric Gryffindor.  Apart from Dumbledore, however, I 
don't think anyone else knew.  (Unless that was one of his memories 
Snape saw during the Occulmency lessons?... I don't have my copy of 
OotP handy so I can't say for sure.)

- JoAnna





From fredalss at ca.inter.net  Wed Mar 17 16:54:12 2004
From: fredalss at ca.inter.net (freda)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 11:54:12 -0500
Subject: Petunia had no choice
Message-ID: <a05210601bc7e3302cbca@[66.48.151.174]>

No: HPFGUIDX 93253

At 14:02 +0000 3/17/04, Doriane wrote:
>  why did he leave Harry on their doorstep in the middle
>of the night ?

Because he did not want to be seen by Muggles.

Freda
-- 






From kcawte at ntlworld.com  Thu Mar 18 04:27:50 2004
From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 20:27:50 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wormtail's Debt? (was: Re: And then there were none.)
References: <c3a9vm+eq36@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000601c40ca1$6009a7d0$bcde6251@kathryn>

No: HPFGUIDX 93254

 Kneasy

> Go  further - suppose it has tried the same ploy before - with
> the Marauders. James (Gryffindor), Sirius (Slytherin), Remus
> (Ravenclaw), Peter (Hufflepuff).
>
K

Argh - this is one of those things that I can't understand and consequently
*really* irritates me! *Why* oh why do people always put Peter in
Hufflepuff - the main trait of Hufflepuff is supposed to be *loyalty* - this
is not exactly the first personality trait which springs to mind when
thinking about Peter (or even the 500th trait to come to mind for that
matter). For me Peter is much more about ambition, desire for
recognition/power, to *be* someone, to be known for something other than
being that kid who tagged along behind James and Sirius. Now much as I hate
to link Peter and Slytherin since I don't hold with the idea that all
Slytherins are evil ... he does seem to fit there much better. Sirius on the
other hand doesn't really seem to harbour much ambition - arrogance,
certainly, also vanity, but not really ambition. However he seems to me to
personify loyalty (to the extent that he tends to act on the emotion without
engaging his brain ... hmmm that last sounds like a description of most of
the gryffindor males we've met) - he is assumed by everyone to be the Secret
Keeper because everyone knows how close he is (how loyal he is) to his best
friend, he agrees to/originates the plan to swap with Peter so he would take
the risk and yet couldn't endanger James and family (and let's not get into
how good an idea that was since how good at planning he and James are is
irrelevant it's the intention here that's important), he escapes from
Azkaban after however many years it was - now presumably if he'd really
tried he could have done so before but it is the idea of Harry being in
danger that spurs him to do so, his outburst in the shack shows that he
certainly things that death would be a better option than betraying
someone,he even exhibits some degree of loyalty to his brother (at least he
seems somewhat sad at the fact that he died), and then there's his animagus
form, which could easily be said to be an indication of his inner self, a
dog is after all pretty much universally seen as a symbol of loyalty. Even
his utterly bloody minded insistence on hating Snape could be said to be a
sign of an overly zealous and twisted loyalty to his friends and house.


K





From Catalyna_99 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 17 18:34:21 2004
From: Catalyna_99 at yahoo.com (catalyna_99)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 18:34:21 -0000
Subject: The Dursleys *are* guilty (was : On the other hand )
In-Reply-To: <c39q1t+10mg3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3a5nd+j48t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93255

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Doriane" <delwynmarch at y...> 
wrote:
 
> 
> Del :
> Okay, I've been suspected several times already of trying to 
absolve 
> the Dursleys by putting the guilt on everyone else. So let's be 
> clear : that's NOT what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to add guilt 
on 
> other people who are partly responsible for the Dursleys' 
> *continuous* abuse of Harry. If DD had popped up next to Dudley 
the 
> first time he hit Harry, or next to Petunia when she didn't give 
him 
> enough to eat, or next to Vernon when he gave Harry one of 
Dudley's 
> discarded clothes, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have done it 
> *again* !
> 
> Del

Just popping in after a looooong sabbatical and returning to 
lurkdom.  Have to add thoughts before they leave.

First, I think DD was trying not to interfere because not drawing 
attention to Harry was the best protection to insure he could grow 
up. If he continuously popped in or sent howlers to the Dursley's 
before Harry's eleventh birthday, it would definitely sent alarms 
off to where Harry was.  As someone pointed out, maybe the best 
place was the ONLY place and being abused by the Dursley's was 
certainly better than being dead by the DE.  He had no contact with 
the wizarding world until his eleventh birthday except by a few 
wizards that might have recognized him on his few outings.

Second, why no muggle agency had come calling after the signs of 
abuse?  Maybe that was the protective spell working too well. I 
mean, people actually believed the outlandish lies the Dursley's 
told too well.  I can picture someone from social services or the 
police coming all het up for answers at the Dursley's. Then the 
charm takes affect, and then, it's "Oh you poor people. Yes we 
understand he's totally incorrigible. Sorry to bothee you."


Cat





From carolynwhite2 at aol.com  Wed Mar 17 20:27:34 2004
From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 20:27:34 -0000
Subject: "Snape's Job"
In-Reply-To: <c3a8gv+gq6p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3acbm+gr5k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93256

> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severelysigune" 
<severelysigune at y...> wrote:
> > 
> > I quote:
'That is just as well, Potter,' said Snape coldly, 'because you are 
neither special nor important, and it is not up to you to find out 
what the Dark lord is saying to his Death Eaters.''No - that's your 
job, isn't it?' Harry shot at him.

He had not meant to say it; it had burst out of him in temper. For a 
long moment they stared at each other, Harry convinced he had gone 
too far. But there was a curious, almost satisfied expression on 
Snape's face when he answered.
'Yes, Potter,' he said, his eyes glinting. 'That is my job. Now, if 
you are ready, we will start again.'>
(snip)
> > What on earth is Snape so (almost) satisfied about? 

(Kneasy):
> I'm in a dilemma about this little cameo myself, but IMO it's 
possible that Snape is playing games with Harry.
>(snip)
> This scene is the only instance so far that could (perhaps) nudge 
> us into trying try to think of alternatives.
> 
> Based on Snape's character, it could go like  this:
> What Snape does is kept secret and he doesn't go around advertising
his activities  for the Order, and he's certainly not going to tell 
Harry,his bete noir, what he's up to. Harry guesses, but he's wrong. 
Snape's expression would be typical of the man - "Wrong again, 
Potter. But I'll let you stew in your ignorance. If only you knew the 
truth!"
> 
Because if he really is a spy, why would he admit it? Especially to
Harry, who he  considers unable to control his mind or his feelings
and would, in Snape's mind, be a most unsafe confidant. In these
circumstances Sevvy would be happy to mislead Harry -  and us!

(Carolyn):
OTOH, isn't this the classic response of the baddy who thinks he has 
the upper hand - can't resist the temptation to boast ? Voldemort has 
succumbed to it several times in his encounters with Harry.. could be 
something about the little pest that makes them both act foolishly? 
All that goodness, no doubt, welling up inside him. Insufferable.

But assuming Snape hasn't let Harry get to him, and is thinking 
clearly - what is the double bluff going on here? Surely JKR is not 
only misleading Harry and us, but Voldie too, if your supposition is 
correct ?  

If Harry is to think that Snape IS spying on the DEs, and potentially 
passes this on to Voldie next time his mind is invaded..is this 
designed to put the wind up Voldie, Lucius & co ? Is Snape a serious 
enemy, to be afraid of in their eyes ? Or is this designed as a nasty 
shock, because up to now they thought he was spying for them ? A very 
dangerous game for Snape to play, but maybe he thought what the 
hell.. I can't be in any worse danger than I am now.

All this seems pretty out of character for Snape actually, so 
scenario 2: Voldie & co get to hear he is spying on them via 
Harry ... and roll on the floor laughing, because they know better: 
they have certain proof of what he is doing for them ? Its designed 
to be more proof of his loyalty.. to enable him to carry on spying 
for ..who?

A plot worthy of CP Snow indeed.

Carolyn






From theadimail at yahoo.co.in  Wed Mar 17 13:55:25 2004
From: theadimail at yahoo.co.in (theadimail)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 13:55:25 -0000
Subject: Changing Houses
In-Reply-To: <c3942g+csta@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c39lcd+s8mo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93257

"rgbmcl" wrote in #93198:
> <snip> it was mentioned that someone would be changing houses 
> in the next couple books. This brings up a lot of interesting 
> possibilites. My personal favorite: Harry to Slytherin.
<snip>
> I can't really imagine anyone else changing houses either; unless 
> it's a Slytherin into Gryffindor <snip>.

How about Snape changing from Slytherin to Gryffindor? And Minerva 
Mcgonagall will be the new minister of magic? How's that?

Bye,
Adi
 





From melclaros at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 17 20:40:34 2004
From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 20:40:34 -0000
Subject: "Snape's Job"
In-Reply-To: <c3a8gv+gq6p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3ad42+ftlr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93258

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
> I'm in a dilemma about this little cameo myself, but IMO it's 
possible
> that Snape is playing games with Harry.


I too have this filed in my "maybe he's not" drawer. It could be, I 
tell myself, that he's satisfied that the nosy little pratt is 
completely fooled into thinking he's spying on V. for DD. and 
therefore will keep his prying nose out of his REAL business.

Which because he says it *is*, is probably *not* finding out what V. 
is telling his DEs. Or it *is* and he wants someone to think it 
might not be.


Mel, scratching head again.







From ekrbdg at msn.com  Wed Mar 17 19:26:32 2004
From: ekrbdg at msn.com (Kimberly)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 14:26:32 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Changing Houses
References: <c39rul+fl0q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <021a01c40c55$c2a408a0$a5e0f943@hppav>

No: HPFGUIDX 93259

 
  Julie wrote :
  > all of Hogwarts knew via the sorting hat that Harry did not want 
  > to be in Slytherin.  

  >Del :
  >This is movie contamination. In the books, the Sorting Hat 
  >conversations happen all inside the head of the students. This 
  >explains for example why the boys didn't know that the Sorting Hat 
  >had considered putting Hermione in Ravenclaw. Moreover, in CoS, 
  >Harry is very troubled by the fact that the Sorting Hat wanted to 
  >put him in Slytherin, it's his dark little secret, and we are told 
  >that he hasn't mentioned it to anyone. And as far as I can remember, 
  >he still hasn't.

  (Kimberly's comments)
  The only conversation I know of that Harry had with anyone regarding the Sorting Hat wanting to place him in Slytherin is with Dumbledore.   CoS, US edit., ch. 18, pg. 332-3)

  Harry speaking to DD...

  "Professor," he started again after a moment.  "The Sorting Hat told me I'd-I'd have done well in Slytherin."  (omitted text)  

  Harry speaks again, "Voldemort put a bit of himself in me?" Harry said, thunderstruck.    

  "It certainly seems so."

  "So I should be in Slytherin," Harry said, looking desperately into Dumbledore's face.   "The Sorting Hat could see Slutherin's power in me, and it-"

  "Put you in Gryffindor," said Dumbledore calmly.   

  (omitted text)

  "Yet the Sorting Hat placed you in Gryffindor.    You know why that was.   Think."  

  "It only put me in Gryffindor," said Harry in a defeated voice, "because I asked not to go in Slytherin...."
   

  (Kimberly's comments)
  Now the question is, did Dumbledore know this before this conversation or not.     Just after that you have the instance where Dumbledore shows Harry Godric's sword that Harry pulled from The Sorting Hat, thereby attempting to prove to Harry that he was indeed placed correctly.

  Kimberly


  ---
  Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
  Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
  Version: 6.0.620 / Virus Database: 399 - Release Date: 3/11/2004

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





From belijako at online.no  Wed Mar 17 21:25:00 2004
From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 21:25:00 -0000
Subject: Vernon's bullying WAs: Re: Different moral standards
In-Reply-To: <c3ab4b+7ndu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3afnc+fq7c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93260

Geoff wrote:
I think that he [Vernon], like Dudley, is a bully, not physically but 
verbally and mentally. I would be interested to find out how he 
treats any staff under him at work.....

Berit replies:

Well, we have canon suggesting that he treats them much in the same 
way as he treats Harry...:

"Mr Dursley, however, had a perfectly normal, owl-free morning [at 
work]. He yelled at five different people. He made several important 
telephone calls and shouted a bit more. He was in a very good mood 
until lunch-time..." (PS p. 9 UK Ed.)

So it seems that Vernon's bullying is not reserved just for Harry. 
It's part of his personality. He even goes about it when he's in a 
good mood :-(

Berit
http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html




From dk59us at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 17 21:48:15 2004
From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 21:48:15 -0000
Subject: Binns (was: Re: Perkins again-a minor(?) point)
In-Reply-To: <121564846.20040317104555@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <c3ah2v+8ngk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93261

Quoth Eustace_Scrubb:
"'Yes,' said Professor Binns, clearly very much wrong-footed. 
'...yes, hospital wing...well, off you go, then, Perkins...'"

Dave Hardenbrook wrote:
> This is just a quick side note, but it occurs to me that Binns may
be
> the only being in the whole WW who doesn't know who Harry Potter is!

Possibly (I'm not sure we have any evidence that the Fat Friar or
Bloody Baron know who HP is--but Binns is the only one Harry has
encountered in the books who might not know).  Or does Binns just
think it was James and Lily Perkins who were killed by LV?  In other
words, we know he's muddled, it's just not clear in what way.

Eustace_Scrubb




From nkafkafi at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 17 21:55:39 2004
From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 21:55:39 -0000
Subject: "Snape's Job"
In-Reply-To: <c3a8gv+gq6p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3ahgs+p808@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93262

Kneasy:
> There has been no definite confirmation about what Sevvy actually
> does for the Order. Most posters (plus Harry, Ron, Hermione etc)
> assume that he's a spy. But again, as many posters have asked time
> and again - how the hell could he get away with it? Why on earth
> would Voldy or the DEs  trust him? If we think "Ah!  Double agent."
> then those in positions of power in the Potterverse would have
> no difficulty in thinking the exact same thing. I wish I could come
> up with a reasonable alternative, but there's no evidence to base a
> theory on.
> 
> This scene is the only instance so far that could (perhaps) nudge 
> us into trying try to think of alternatives.
> 
> Based on Snape's character, it could go like  this:
> What Snape does is kept secret and he doesn't go around advertising
> his activities  for the Order, and he's certainly not going to tell 
Harry,
> his bete noir, what he's up to. Harry guesses, but he's wrong. 
Snape's
> expression would be typical of the man - "Wrong again, Potter. But
> I'll let you stew in your ignorance. If only you knew the truth!"
> 
> Because if he really is a spy, why would he admit it? Especially to
> Harry, who he  considers unable to control his mind or his feelings
> and would, in Snape's mind, be a most unsafe confidant. In these
> circumstances Sevvy would be happy to mislead Harry -  and us!
> 

Neri:
Snape does report to the Order, so they know at least something, 
which they pointedly do not tell Harry (and us). But we do know that 
whatever Snape is doing (or at least, whatever he tells the Order he 
is doing) is dangerous and valuable. Otherwise he wouldn't have been 
able to bait Sirius, implying that Sirius just sits at home and does 
nothing important. And Snape knows that he can't lie to Harry too 
much regarding this, because sooner or later someone from the Order 
will finally tell Harry (and us!) what is Snape's job. So I don't 
think Snape is lying to Harry, unless (of course) he lies to the 
whole Order and DD included. 

In fact, Snape's attitude towards Harry in this "That is my job" is 
very similar to Snape's attitude towards Sirius. It is "you all 
unsubtle, noisy Gryffindors who wear your hearts on your sleeves, can 
you just sit quietly for one moment and let The Professional do the 
delicate, crucial job?" 

So I believe Snape *is* a spy. And as for the question how does he 
get away with it, I can see only one realistic answer:

It's magic...



Neri  





From dk59us at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 17 22:19:29 2004
From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 22:19:29 -0000
Subject: Binns (was: Re: Perkins again-a minor(?) point)
In-Reply-To: <c3a8ak+va93@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3aith+4p5g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93263

ruminalus_ficus wrote:
I wonder if "Perkins" in that quote is the same Perkins who works 
with Arthur Weasley at the Ministry.  It's interesting how things 
like that creep into the story.

Eustace_Scrubb reviewed:

Er, that was my original question when I started the thread (see
Message 92985).

If so, maybe Perkins has some significance of which we are so far
unaware.

Regards,

Eustace_Scrubb




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 17 22:30:49 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 22:30:49 -0000
Subject: Snape the Gryffindor or Ravenclaw?!
In-Reply-To: <c38h8r+cr2e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3ajip+kvid@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93264

 "snapesmate" wrote:
> > Is there actually any canon stating Snape was in Slytherin? <snip>
> 
> Potioncat:
> I think I have the quote you're looking for. GoF, US paperback p531 
> Padfoot Returns: <quote snipped>

> 
> I know our group can take that about 7 different ways, but it really 
> sounds to me like Severus was in Slytherin.  
> 
> Sirius goes on to list 4 male names and Bellatrix as being in this 
> gang.  So it could be that Rosier, Wilkes, the married Lestranges, 
> Avery and Snape were in the same year in Slytherin.  He lists the 
> others as having been found to be DE's (except for Avery who had 
> claimed the Imperius curse and gone free) but goes on to say, "But 
> as far as I know, Snape was never even accused of being a DE--not 
> that that means much...."
> 
> As to being Head of House, I can't imagine your house as a student 
> would be an important consideration for Head of House.  What if a 
> professor was up for head and the available slot wasn't from his old 
> house?  Or if the professor came from one of the other schools?  
<snip>

Carol:
I agree that the quote implies that Severus was in Slytherin, though
he's not necessarily the same age as the others. Sirius says that he
last saw Bellatrix when he was Harry's age (fifteen and about to enter
his fifth year), which suggests that either Bellatrix left school to
get married very early or she's about three years older than Sirius.
Rodolphus is probably close to the same age.

I also agree that no one but a Slytherin would be appointed Head of
Slytherin (or a Gryffindor as Head of Gryffindor). Can you imagine
Draco's attitude toward Snape if he suspected him of being a former
Gryffindor, or Snape being able to maintain his connections with
Lucius Malfoy if he were a former Gryffindor? His reference to
Slytherin as "my own house" (can't remember where that comes from,
sorry!) suggests that Slytherin has always been his house, as does his
support for the Slytherin quidditch team (matched by McGonagall's
loyalty to hers). 

One more point. Except for his unusual courage, Snape is the
quintessential Slytherin: ambitious, cunning, and not altogether
scrupulous. Multiple Slytherin traits would probably outweight single
traits suggesting other houses (intelligence for Ravenclaw and courage
for Gryffindor). The very fact that he was once a loyal DE suggests
that he was in Slytherin. And his early interest in the Dark Arts
would certainly have been best served and perpetuated by placement in
Slytherin.

(This is also why, IMO, Sirius labeled Severus as "Lucius Malfoy's lap
dog." The phrase does *not* suggest an errand boy, as some people on
this list have interpreted it, but a pampered pet--a relationship that
could only have occurred when both were in school and the five-year
age difference was important in determining their relationship. My
interpretation is that Lucius as a Slytherin sixth-year spotted little
Sevvy's precocious knowledge of curses and his interest in the Dark
Arts and took him under his wing, and it was probably his influence
that drew young Severus into the Death Eaters at about eighteen--a
most unlikely event if he wasn't in Slytherin. this paragraph is in
parentheses because it's speculation, but I see nothing in canon to
contradict my interpretation.)

Anyway, the weight of the evidence seems to me to point to Snape as a
lifelong Slytherin, and I can see no reason why the Sorting Hat,
looking into his eleven-year-old mind, would have placed him in any
other house.

Carol








From CoyotesChild at charter.net  Wed Mar 17 22:36:43 2004
From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (Iggy McSnurd)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 16:36:43 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN:  Touchy Subjects and OT Posts
In-Reply-To: <c3abhs+ho8p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000301c40c70$56abd9f0$6501a8c0@Einstein>

No: HPFGUIDX 93265

I wholeheartedly agree with this.  (For one thing, not everyone shares
the same beliefs.  I am a Pagan who is married to a Southern Baptist,
for example.  My sister is a modern day Quaker, my mother is Catholic,
and my dad follows his own path.)

Even within the same belief systems, nobody agrees 100% with everyone
else's interpretations... which is why, as another example, we have the
Christians divided into the Protestants and the Catholics (for the most
part) and each of those two divisions are divided even more... and
more... and more...


The same holds true with historical perspective.  As the famous quote
goes:  "History is written by the victors."  I'm sure that, had the
Native Americans kept their lands, had the Nazis won WWII, or had the
USA lost the Revolutionary war, then not only would history have turned
out different, but the perceptions of the winning sides would have been
different as well.  (The Native Americans would be having classes about
the European mythology and Anglican Reservations... Europe would be
learning about the victory of the virtuous Aryan Race... and the
Colonies would be speaking the King's English and learning about how the
British Empire retained its rightful control over the New World.   Note
that these are not my personal opinions... but statements to illustrate
differences in historical perspectives.)

Religion, Politics, and certain historical events (such as wars and
such) tend to be very emotionally charged situations.  I agree that it's
best to tread softly around these big dogs so as not to wake them up.

Iggy McSnurd.



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Phyllis [mailto:erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 2:14 PM
> To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: Touchy Subjects and OT Posts
> 
> Greetings from Hexquarters!
> 
> Religion, politics, and cultural differences are all acceptable
> topics per se, but please be sensitive to the fact that we do not all
> share the same views on these issues. It is asking for a flame war
> when one makes generalizations about faith, the Holocaust or genocide.
> 
> Please tread with care; we are all grownups and capable of expressing
> our ideas without being insulting or dismissive.
> 
> Also, a reminder that off-topic posts are not permitted on this list.
> We require that posts to the main list make a canon point and discuss
> the words or works of JKR. We have an entire HPFGU-OTChatter list for
> off-topic posts. It's a fun and friendly place where people enjoy
> talking about all sorts of things, and it can be found at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter
> 
> For further information, check out our posting guidelines at:
> 
> http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin/
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Poppy Elf
> for the list admin team
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material
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> posts to which you're replying!
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> 
> 
> 






From lizvega2 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 17 23:10:41 2004
From: lizvega2 at yahoo.com (lizvega2)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 23:10:41 -0000
Subject: Vernon's bullying WAs: Re: Different moral standards/Dursley's
In-Reply-To: <c3afnc+fq7c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3alth+o5oc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93266

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Berit Jakobsen" 
<belijako at o...> wrote:
> Geoff wrote:
> I think that he [Vernon], like Dudley, is a bully, not physically 
but 
> verbally and mentally. I would be interested to find out how he 
> treats any staff under him at work.....
> 
> Berit replies:
> 
> Well, we have canon suggesting that he treats them much in the 
same 
> way as he treats Harry...:
> 
> "Mr Dursley, however, had a perfectly normal, owl-free morning [at 
> work]. He yelled at five different people. He made several 
important 
> telephone calls and shouted a bit more. He was in a very good mood 
> until lunch-time..." (PS p. 9 UK Ed.)
> 
> So it seems that Vernon's bullying is not reserved just for Harry. 
> It's part of his personality. He even goes about it when he's in a 
> good mood :-(
> 

LizVega piping up:

I believe that the Dursley's are fully aware of how unfair their 
treatment of Harry is. When Harry's first letter from Hogwarts comes 
in PS- its' addressed to his cupboard. That freaked them out, when 
they realized that someone knew their nephew was sleeping in a 
cupboard under the stairs. The letter prompted the move from 
the 'cupboard under the stairs' to the 'smallest bedroom, #4 Privet 
Drive, &co.'

If the Dursleys don't think they're doing Harry any harm, why would 
they move him to the bedroom? I always like to think that most of 
us, while honest and respectable!, behave differently when other's 
are around. 

Just a thought
LizVega 





From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu  Wed Mar 17 23:40:36 2004
From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Jami)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 23:40:36 -0000
Subject: Binns (was: Re: Perkins again-a minor(?) point)
In-Reply-To: <121564846.20040317104555@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <c3anlk+v98t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93267

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Dave Hardenbrook <
DaveH47 at m...> wrote:
> 
> Sunday, March 14, 2004, 11:26:50 AM, Eustace_Scrubb wrote:
> 
> E>   "'Yes,' said Professor Binns, clearly very much wrong-footed. 
> E> '...yes, hospital wing...well, off you go, then, Perkins...'"
> 
> This is just a quick side note, but it occurs to me that Binns may be
> the only being in the whole WW who doesn't know who Harry Potter is!
> 
> -- 
> Dave

----------

Especially odd when you consider that Harry Potter is a rare case in that he 
actually is already in history books by the time he comes into the History 
Professor's class.  You'd think if Binna knew any student by sighte, it would 
be one who he's read about in one of his books for class and who bears a 
distinguishing mark on his forehead.  

Perhaps evidence that  Binns' scope of history knowledge is limited when it 
comes to 'recent' events?  


Arya




From Zarleycat at aol.com  Wed Mar 17 23:47:20 2004
From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 23:47:20 -0000
Subject: Sirius and Confusing and Befuddlement Draughts
In-Reply-To: <c38g9p+t219@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3ao28+o45c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93268

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "JoAnna" <pt4ever at y...> wrote:
> >>>
> Marianne:
> 
> And why should Sirius have immediately trusted that a message to
> Dumbledore would have led to a cozy chat where all could be 
explained?
> Dumbldedore knew where Sirius was for the last 12 years, yet we have
> no evidence that he sought to question Sirius about what happened
> with the Potters/Secret Keeper, etc. Dumbledore was the leader of
> the Order the first time around, but apparently believed that one of
> his soldiers was indeed guilty of horrible treachery and didn't seem
> to have a problem with locking the guy away without benefit of a
> trial.
> >>>
> 
> JoAnna:
> 
> Dumbledore did not have all the facts.  He had no clue that MMWP 
were
> Animagi or that an escape via transformation by Pettigrew was
> possible.  He had no clue that Pettigrew was the Secret-Keeper.  He
> had no reason to suspect Sirius innocence *until he was given all 
the
> facts* by Harry and Hermione at the end of PoA.

> IMO, all Sirius had to do was owl Dumbledore with the facts - "We 
were
> unregistered Animagi - I was a dog; James, a stag; and Peter, a 
rat. 
> If you don't believe me, ask Lupin.  Peter was Secret-Keeper, we
> switched, he was working for Voldemort."  Dumbledore would certainly
> have been able to at least verify that MMWP were unregistered 
Animagi
> by talking with Lupin.  

Marianne:

Agreed that Dumbledore didn't have all the facts. He believed the 
Ministry line and the damning evidence of Sirius' guilt.  And this is 
precisely my point - why would Sirius think that Dumbledore would be 
willing to listen to him now, when he has not shown a bit of interest 
in the last 12 years?  

And, I agree, had Sirius sent him a note outlining the case, 
revealing he was an Animagus, Dumbledore would surely have given him 
a hearing.  But, I think that would have shown a huge level of trust 
by Sirius, not only in reaching out to someone who has, like everyone 
else, condemned him, but also handing Dumbledore the one secret that 
Sirius can use to keep himself relatively safe.  I don't know that 
I'd be willing to take that chance, either.

JoAnna:
 
> I think that the main difference between GoF Sirius and OotP Sirius 
is
> that GoF Sirius was *free* - he could come and go as he pleased, 
where
> he pleased, when he pleased.  OotP Sirius was a prisoner in his own
> home, an imprisonment which I'm sure reminded him of Azkaban.  Many
> would become reckless and hot-tempered in that situation, though I'm
> not discounting the possibility that a Bufuddlement Draught may have
> been involved.

Marianne:

I agree, part of the way.  GoF Sirius was not caged, but neither was 
he free.  Shop in Diagon Alley? Stroll through the streets of 
Hogsmeade? Apply for a job at the Ministry?  Sirius was still 
isolated from his own society. Although the level of autonomy he had 
certainly had to feel better than prison, he was still constrained in 
his movements and activities. 

I also have to agree with HunterGreen's later post in hoping that 
whatever ailed Sirius in OoP (depression, stress, iron-poor tired 
blood, prison flashbacks, whatever) was not a result of a magically-
induced condition. It's much more interesting to read about 
characters with real flaws making real mistakes.

And, yes, it's all a moot point, really.  But, what else can we do 
while waiting for Book 6?

Marianne




From Zarleycat at aol.com  Thu Mar 18 00:05:07 2004
From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 00:05:07 -0000
Subject: Wormtail's Debt? (was: Re: And then there were none.)
In-Reply-To: <576161718.20040317105109@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <c3ap3j+cs9n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93269

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> 
wrote:
> 
> Saturday, March 13, 2004, 9:45:04 PM, greatelderone wrote:
> 
> g> I agree Lupin is going to buy it. Why else would one need a 
silver 
> g> hand for, but to kill werewolves.
> 
> Am I the the only one who is really, REALLY finding it impossible to
> believe that there's ANYTHING Wormtail could possibly do to make
> Harry "glad he saved his life", as Dumbledore says?  Yes, he may
> someday reciprocate and save Harry's life, but after all the damage
> he's done and probably will do before that day comes, I don't think
> Harry will ever be happy or grateful about it.
> 
> -- 
> Dave

Marianne:

I'm with you on this, Dave.  I can't see Harry having more than a 
temporary rush of gratitude should Wormtail do something to save 
Harry or one of the people he cares about.  

On the other hand, am I the only one who thinks that when the moment 
arises for Wormtail to redeem his debt that he won't do it, unless he 
sees an advatage in saving his own hide at the same time?  We all 
assume, mostly due to Dumbledore's words, that should an instance 
arise when that debt can be repaid it will be.  What if Wormtail's 
choice is "Do I save myself or do I save Harry?"  Can't a wizard 
choose not to repay the debt?  And, if so, what happens then?  

Marianne






From owlery2003 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 18 00:32:07 2004
From: owlery2003 at yahoo.com (Scott Santangelo)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 16:32:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wormtail's Debt? (was: Re: And then there were none.)
In-Reply-To: <c3ap3j+cs9n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040318003207.18089.qmail@web60104.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93270



 
greatelderone wrote:
> 
I agree Lupin is going to buy it. Why else would one need a silver hand for, but to kill werewolves.


DaveH47 commented

 Am I the the only one who is really, REALLY finding it impossible to believe that there's ANYTHING Wormtail could possibly do to make Harry "glad he saved his life", as Dumbledore says?  Yes, he may someday reciprocate and save Harry's life, but after all the damage he's done and probably will do before that day comes, I don't think Harry will ever be happy or grateful about it.


Marianne replied:

I'm with you on this, Dave.  I can't see Harry having more than a temporary rush of gratitude should Wormtail do something to save Harry or one of the people he cares about.  On the other hand, am I the only one who thinks that when the moment arises for Wormtail to redeem his debt that he won't do it, unless he sees an advatage in saving his own hide at the same time?  We all assume, mostly due to Dumbledore's words, that should an instance arise when that debt can be repaid it will be.  What if Wormtail's choice is "Do I save myself or do I save Harry?"  Can't a wizard choose not to repay the debt?  And, if so, what happens then?  

Owlery2003 added:

I keep thinking along the gollum lines on this bit. Gandalf commented that we can't envision the way these evil players' actions may work a good. The life-debt business suggests a conscious choice to "repay" the obligation. We've already seen the worm not give Harry an inch when he's under the direct supervision of Voldy (tying the knots so tight in the graveyard, for example - heck, one wrong turn with that potion, and Voldy might have been soup!). So I think it will be a classic traitor move, in reverse. If the worm learns of the killer trap, perhaps he finds a way to warn Harry away from a deadly trigger, or clues him in to it in a way that lets Harry turn it upon Voldy . . .





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From jasnyder at intrex.net  Thu Mar 18 00:31:17 2004
From: jasnyder at intrex.net (Jen Snyder)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 19:31:17 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snapes punishing assignments are to help Harry?
In-Reply-To: <c38el1+87vh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <BNEHIILJKELAIEMOJLOGEEFGCCAA.jasnyder@intrex.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 93271

Well, in PoA when he's standing in as DADA teacher for Lupin he does assign
the class an essay on how to recognize werewolves...I'm not sure if that was
for Harry's benefit, per se, but he was certainly trying to communicate
something to the class...

And, I know that I'm not supposed to mention it, but in the movie version of
SS Snape's behavior when he gives Harry the answers to his questions in the
first potions class is quite striking...

Jen (who promises that she will take this topic to the movie list and never,
never mention it again here...)
  -----Original Message-----
  From: mclellyn [mailto:ellyn337 at earthlink.net]
  Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2004 9:54 PM
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snapes punishing assignments are to help Harry?


  I was listening to OOTP in the background at work and the Moonstone
  essay hit me as something to research.  (Yes, I am one of those
  strange creatures who love to research.  Wish I could get a job doing
  it, but I digress).  I was researching it to support my Snape-put-a-
  stopper-in-Harry's-death-by-Voldie's-AK-so-Harry's-fame-should-be-
  Snape's-fame theory, but instead what I found is that I think Snape
  was trying to help Harry out.  In looking up the properties of
  moonstone there is a protective quality for travelers, but the
  property that jumped out at me is it is to help with EMOTIONAL
  BALANCE.   Well, if in any book Harry needed help with emotional
  balance it was this one.  So did Snape assign it to help Harry with
  his temper and troubles with Umbridge?

  So now I'm wondering, has anyone looked into the past assignments by
  Snape to see if they would have helped Harry?  Let me know!

  Gadfly McLellyn who thought Snape was in it for himself, but may have
  to seriously rethink this.




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From owlery2003 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 18 00:45:36 2004
From: owlery2003 at yahoo.com (Scott Santangelo)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 16:45:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "Snape's Job"
In-Reply-To: <c3ahgs+p808@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040318004536.11479.qmail@web60109.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93272


Kneasy:
> There has been no definite confirmation about what Sevvy actually does for the Order. Most posters (plus Harry, Ron, Hermione etc) assume that he's a spy. But again, as many posters have asked time and again - how the hell could he get away with it? Why on earth would Voldy or the DEs  trust him? If we think "Ah!  Double agent." then those in positions of power in the Potterverse would have no difficulty in thinking the exact same thing. I wish I could come up with a reasonable alternative, but there's no evidence to base a theory on. This scene is the only instance so far that could (perhaps) nudge  us into trying try to think of alternatives.  Based on Snape's character, it could go like  this: What Snape does is kept secret and he doesn't go around advertising his activities  for the Order, and he's certainly not going to tell Harry, his bete noir, what he's up to. Harry guesses, but he's wrong. Snape's expression would be typical of the man - "Wrong again, Potter. But I'll let
 you stew in your ignorance. If only you knew the truth!" Because if he really is a spy, why would he admit it? Especially to Harry, who he  considers unable to control his mind or his feelings and would, in Snape's mind, be a most unsafe confidant. In these circumstances Sevvy would be happy to mislead Harry -  and us! 

Neri:
Snape does report to the Order, so they know at least something, which they pointedly do not tell Harry (and us). But we do know that whatever Snape is doing (or at least, whatever he tells the Order he is doing) is dangerous and valuable. Otherwise he wouldn't have been 
able to bait Sirius, implying that Sirius just sits at home and does nothing important. And Snape knows that he can't lie to Harry too much regarding this, because sooner or later someone from the Order will finally tell Harry (and us!) what is Snape's job. So I don't think Snape is lying to Harry, unless (of course) he lies to the whole Order and DD included. In fact, Snape's attitude towards Harry in this "That is my job" is 
very similar to Snape's attitude towards Sirius. It is "you all unsubtle, noisy Gryffindors who wear your hearts on your sleeves, can you just sit quietly for one moment and let The Professional do the delicate, crucial job?" 

So I believe Snape *is* a spy. And as for the question how does he get away with it, I can see only one realistic answer - It's magic...

owlery2003 commented:

It's a tribute to the depth JKR built into Snape's mysterious character. I think it's easy to see how Severus gets away with it. Nobody "trusts" him (except DD, of course!), and everybody suspects him. He's not likeable (to other characters in the books!!). It's easy to see him as a spy for either side, or a double agent for either. Voldy is certainly the type to take advantage of this in either scenario, and to contemplate either. DD's faith is one "constant," and given his omniscient wisdom, is it likely he'll be proven wrong? What a horrible chapter that would be if Snape betrays DD to Voldy! Harry's suspicion is another constant, and we can't read too much into Snape's comments that his job is to spy on the DEs (Snape knows Voldy has been looking into Harry's thoughts, so his "admission" could later be justified to Voldy as inducing Harry to "trust" him). This part of the story is so well cloaked in uncertainty and conflicting incidents that I don't think we can really figure out
 where canon might be leading re Severus.


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From ruminalus_ficus at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 17 21:11:03 2004
From: ruminalus_ficus at yahoo.com (ruminalus_ficus)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 21:11:03 -0000
Subject: LV knows about the order
In-Reply-To: <20040317142327.61174.qmail@web13507.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c3aet7+g52q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93273

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ms Mo Me <fauntine_80 at y...> 
wrote:
> I apologise if this has already been written.  I
> haven't been able to read all the posts in the last
> week, but I remember this topic comming up a few times
> to whether LV knows there is an order or not.
> 
> While re-reading OotP, I came across the part where
> Moody shows HP the old picture of the order, and
> Wormtail was on it.  Wormtail was a member, so, we can
> most definitely asume the Wormtail has told LV about
> it, if he didn't know already.


I think he would have known about the Order even before Wormtail 
came to him.  He might not have known much about it or its members, 
but someone as intelligent as LV would be able to recognize that his 
opposition was organized and included more than Ministry aurors.  He 
would also surely know that Dumbledore was leading the opposition.  
LV's fear of Dumbledore arises not only from Dumbledore's incredible 
skill with magic, but also from his ability to inspire other wizards 
to oppose him.

-RF





From mnaperrone at aol.com  Wed Mar 17 22:07:22 2004
From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 22:07:22 -0000
Subject: "Snape's Job"
In-Reply-To: <c3ad42+ftlr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3ai6q+4d2s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93274

> <arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
> > I'm in a dilemma about this little cameo myself, but IMO it's 
> possible
> > that Snape is playing games with Harry.
> 
> Mel wrote:
> I too have this filed in my "maybe he's not" drawer. It could be, I 
> tell myself, that he's satisfied that the nosy little pratt is 
> completely fooled into thinking he's spying on V. for DD. and 
> therefore will keep his prying nose out of his REAL business.
> 
> Which because he says it *is*, is probably *not* finding out what 
V. 
> is telling his DEs. Or it *is* and he wants someone to think it 
> might not be.
> 


Hmm.  I tend to agree with those that have suggested Snape was merely 
feeling smug about getting some recognition, especially if he thought 
that it was recognition for something that Harry couldn't or 
shouldn't be doing.

Granted I change my mind about Snape every time I read scenes with 
him, but as of my last reading, I think that if JKR wrote "glinting 
eyes" as a clue that he's not really working for Dumbledore, she 
might as well write him in a mustache and have him start twirling 
it.  It just seems like an awfully over-the-top way to write a 
villian.  If she was really planning for Snape to turn out to be on 
Voldie's side, would she really be so obvious about it?  I tend to 
think it's just another red herring to throw us off the REAL Snape 
solution, whatever that is.

But who knows?  Check back in with me in a week for a totally 
different idea on the same subject.  : P

Ally 






From pt4ever at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 17 22:00:55 2004
From: pt4ever at yahoo.com (JoAnna)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 22:00:55 -0000
Subject: Changing Houses
In-Reply-To: <021a01c40c55$c2a408a0$a5e0f943@hppav>
Message-ID: <c3ahqn+o28l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93275

>   (Kimberly's comments)
>>   Now the question is, did Dumbledore know this before this 
conversation or not.     Just after that you have the instance where 
Dumbledore shows Harry Godric's sword that Harry pulled from The 
Sorting Hat, thereby attempting to prove to Harry that he was indeed 
placed correctly.>>


My guess would be that Dumbledore did know - after all, the Sorting 
Hat does live in DD's office, and I imagine that DD has 
conversations with it from time to time.  Perhaps DD conversed with 
the Hat after the sorting to find how/why it sorted Harry into 
Gryffindor.





From ruminalus_ficus at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 17 22:55:35 2004
From: ruminalus_ficus at yahoo.com (ruminalus_ficus)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 22:55:35 -0000
Subject: Binns (was: Re: Perkins again-a minor(?) point)
In-Reply-To: <c3aith+4p5g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3al17+7c7d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93276

Eustace_Scrubb wrote:
> Er, that was my original question when I started the thread (see
> Message 92985).
> 
> If so, maybe Perkins has some significance of which we are so far
> unaware.


Ah! :)  Sorry 'bout that.  I missed the original post.

I do think Perkins will come back into the story at some point.  It 
seems unlikely that the name "Perkins" would appear twice and not 
refer to the same person.  It doesn't strike me as a particularly 
common name.  Of course, it could be that Perkins has other 
relatives that we don't know about yet.

The real question then is: What is the significance of Binns 
addressing Harry as "Perkins"?  How could Perkins be related to 
Binns or Binns' class?  Does it matter? 





From ellyn337 at earthlink.net  Wed Mar 17 23:23:42 2004
From: ellyn337 at earthlink.net (mclellyn)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 23:23:42 -0000
Subject: How can LV win the war in three weeks
In-Reply-To: <20040317180423.1B1542A643D@front.interia.pl>
Message-ID: <c3amlu+uc7e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93277

-big snip
Viridis wrote:
> I should have been more specific. You're absolutely right 
about "lack of the originality" of many works. Eco called 
it "borrowed or stolen worlds" - namely authors "borrowing" basic 
assumptions from our world, leaving most of the things undescribed. 
If they leave something "out" it simply means "the same as in our 
world".
> As for JKR - every author has his/her strenghts and weakneses. JKR 
Is a briliant storyteller and I think she creates really interesting 
characters. Her world however is very much "borrowed", is not the 
best part of her writing. 
more snip

Gadfly McLellyn:
I had the feeling that JKR was purposely borrowing so that when her 
schoolchildren readers get to the point of reading/learning 
Shakespeare (Weird Sister/MacBeth), mythology, latin, or whatever 
borrowed references they encounter then the kids will be more 
comfortable with it because they will remember it in a fun context.  
It will be a bit familiar and help them when they get to the next 
level of education.  I thought she had a purpose in all that 
borrowing. Wotcha think?  Gadfly McLellyn 





From mtluinmist at yahoo.com.au  Wed Mar 17 22:33:35 2004
From: mtluinmist at yahoo.com.au (mtluinmist)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 22:33:35 -0000
Subject: Missing body (Voldemort and his wand question)
In-Reply-To: <021201c40bdb$fe313e80$1fe4f943@hppav>
Message-ID: <c3ajnv+jnmg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93278

Kimberly wrote:

> The text
> (Voldemort speaking, GoF, ch. 33 pg. 653, US Edition)
> "....I was ripped from my body, I was less than a spirit, less 
than the meanest ghost...but still, I was alive.  What I was, even I 
do not know... (skip some text)... Nevertheless, I was as powerless 
as the weakest creature alive, and without the means to help 
myself...for I had no body, and every spell that might helped me 
required the use of a wand....", etc.  
> 
> My question is this, during this time, where was his wand? 



I have a question in a similar vein.  Where was his body?  "I was 
ripped from my body" suggests that LV's body was left behind, but 
there doesn't seem to be any mention of a spare body being found in 
the wreckage.  I wonder about this every time I read this passage, 
and any ideas would be appreciated.
Stuka






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 18 01:24:58 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 01:24:58 -0000
Subject: Snape the Gryffindor or Ravenclaw?!
In-Reply-To: <c3a3h5+kcoj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3atpa+p5e9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93279

Potioncat:
<snip>
> Have you come across any canon that says Severus was hanging around 
> older students? The portion I found doesn't say the others were 
> older than he was. <snip>

Carol:
I realize that Lucius Malfoy isn't mentioned as a member of this gang,
but I see him (based on his relationship with the others in the MoM
scene) as its natural leader while he was there. And yes, we have
canonical evidence that he's 41 at the end of GoF whereas Snape is 35
or 36 in that book according to an interview, so he is five years
older than Snape (assuming that Snape starts out 35 but turns 36 at
some point during GoF).

As I mentioned in another post, we have canonical evidence that
Bellatrix is about three years older than Sirius, who is roughly the
same age as Snape. Sirius says to Harry (who is fifteen and about to
enter his fifth year at Hogwarts): "I haven't seen her since I was
your age, unless you count a glimpse of her coming to Azkaban" (OoP,
Am. ed., 114). This remark seems to indicate that Bellatrix's seventh
and last year corresponded with Sirius's and Severus's fourth year.
(Either that or she left school early.) As I said earlier, it's safe
to assume that Rodolphus is about the same age, probably in the same
year. (Since Rabastan is part of their little trio, he is probably
close to the same age, maybe a year or two younger, but I'm just
guessing now based on his apparent subservience to Bellatrix.)

Another indication that the "gang" members are older than Severus is
that they all seem to have left before the Pensieve scene--either that
or they're a bunch of cowards who don't come to their friend's defense
when he's being hung upside down by a pair of Gryffindor berks. Had
they been in the same year as Severus, they would have been taking the
same DADA O.W.L. exam and would almost certainly have witnessed the
scene, but he seems to have become a loner by that point.

Carol 




From hickengruendler at yahoo.de  Thu Mar 18 01:38:41 2004
From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 01:38:41 -0000
Subject: The Dursleys *are* guilty (was : On the other hand )
In-Reply-To: <c3a3k3+bvau@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3auj1+mqi5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93280

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> 
wrote:
  
> And should Dumbledore also have popped up at the Burrow  to 
> stop Fred and George when they turned Ron's teddy into a 
> spider or used his puffskein for a bludger? Should he have 
> written a stern note to Molly about Ron's second hand robes and 
> broken wand? Should he have told Granny Longbottom that 
> while Neville is not dangerously overweight the school would like 
> to see him fed a bit less?

No, because Dumbledore is not responsible for these persons. 
Personally, I wouldn't mind if we learn, that he appeared on Uncle 
Algie's doorstep and gave him the good advice, not to throw Neville 
out of the window, again. But I doubt we will see anything like this, 
because Dumbledore, no matter how powerful he is, isn't all-knowing. 
Therefore he probably doesn't know about all of these details. But I 
am sure he knew how the Dursleys treated Harry, at least through 
Arabella Figg. Also, Dumbledore is not responsible for how everybody 
treats their children. Of course he can't tell the Longbottoms or 
Weasleys or Malfoys how to raise their kids, because a) he would have 
a lot to do, if he would care about everybody's parenting and b) it 
are still the parents who have to raise the children and can decide, 
how. But it is different with Harry. Dumbledore is responsible for 
Harry's upbringing, because he is the one who gave Harry to the 
Dursleys. It was his decision, and others have to take the 
consequences, especially Harry. Dumbledore is the one who brought him 
in that situation (except Voldemort, of course), therefore he should 
at least help him a bit.  

 
> 
>  Dumbledore could not have made any impression on the 
> Dursleys except by force, and that would make him no better 
> than they are.
> 
> Pippin

Well, I think that Mad-Eye Moody made a pretty good impression, 
didn't he? Of course, he's scarier than Dumbledore, but then, I think 
just a nice reminder would already have helped. The Dursleys were 
even afraid of Arthur Weasley, after all.

Hickengruendler




From stevejjen at earthlink.net  Thu Mar 18 02:08:35 2004
From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 02:08:35 -0000
Subject: Wormtail's Debt? (was: Re: And then there were none.)
In-Reply-To: <20040318003207.18089.qmail@web60104.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c3b0b3+e4hi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93281

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Scott Santangelo 
<owlery2003 at y...> wrote:
The life-debt business suggests a conscious choice to "repay" the 
obligation. We've already seen the worm not give Harry an inch when 
he's under the direct supervision of Voldy (tying the knots so tight 
in the graveyard, for example - heck, one wrong turn with that 
potion, and Voldy might have been soup!). So I think it will be a 
classic traitor move, in reverse. If the worm learns of the killer 
trap, perhaps he finds a way to warn Harry away from a deadly 
trigger, or clues him in to it in a way that lets Harry turn it upon 
Voldy . . .


Jen: Wormtail's behavior in the graveyard scene doesn't add up for 
me. In POA he's a sniveling toady, and in the first part of GOF he's 
actually trying to bargain with LV for Harry's life! Then we have 
the graveyard scene with Wormtail's nerves of steel, and in OOTP we 
find out he enjoys watching James and Sirius bully Snape. What's up? 
If Peter is truly capable of such a range of emotions/behavior, he 
seems like an accident waiting to happen for either LV or Harry 
(depending on the day).

Peter has proven he can be a very capable wizard at times. Which 
Wormtail will we see in Book 6 & 7? I suspect he will either find it 
inside to pay the life debt, or there will be some awful consequence 
for passing up the opportunity to pay Harry back.




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 18 02:15:47 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 02:15:47 -0000
Subject: "Snape's Job"
In-Reply-To: <c3ad42+ftlr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3b0oj+ql04@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93282


Kneasy wrote <snipped>:
I'm in a dilemma about this little cameo myself, but IMO it's possible
that Snape is playing games with Harry.
> 
Mel: 
I too have this filed in my "maybe he's not" drawer. It could be, I 
tell myself, that he's satisfied that the nosy little pratt is 
completely fooled into thinking he's spying on V. for DD. and 
therefore will keep his prying nose out of his REAL business.
 
Which because he says it *is*, is probably *not* finding out what V. 
is telling his DEs. Or it *is* and he wants someone to think it 
might not be.
 
Mel, scratching head again.

Carol:
Maybe I'm naive, but I interpret this exchange as the first moment of
real and honest communication between Snape and Harry (further
evidenced by the first bits of praise Harry has ever received from
Snape)--all ruined later when Harry looks into the Pensieve and Snape
angrily ends the occlumency lessons. As for the "glint," it's
perceived by Harry, and he (or we, the readers) could be reading
malice into what is really just a gleam or glimmer or satisfaction
(Potter understands something at last). My dictionary (or the one I
happened to grab) lists as the primary definition of "glint": "a gleam
or glimmer; sparkle; flash." No suggestion that the glint is
associated with evil or ill will.

I see no reason to judge Snape solely on the basis of a single word,
which may or may not connote malice and may or may not be deliberately
misleading, or to allow this one passage to alter our conception of
him, which needs to be based on all of the available evidence,
ambiguous or contradictory though it may be. I personally think that
the look Snape and Harry exchange and the fact that Snape reacted
calmly (not angrily, as Harry anticipated) are at least as important
as the "glint"--or was it a gleam?--that Harry perceives in Snape's
eyes. And the calm, direct way Snape reacts--"Yes, Potter, that is my
job"--suggests that it really *is* his job, though how he goes about
it remains a mystery.

Carol




From nkafkafi at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 18 02:34:55 2004
From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 02:34:55 -0000
Subject: Sirius was right, Dumbledore was wrong
Message-ID: <c3b1sf+98st@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93283

I'm not particularly a Sirius' fan, and I didn't cry when he died, 
but I find it strange how he came to be maligned by many members of 
the list. The more gracious allow that maybe Kreacher was slipping 
him befuddlement drought, but most seem to think he just acts the hot-
headed, irresponsible, childish and deluded ex-bully by nature.

But does he? 

The facts in OotP state plainly that Sirius was right all along, 
while DD, as he admits in the end, was wrong. Sirius wanted to tell 
Harry everything immediately when he came to Grimmauld Place. 
The "responsible" Molly and Lupin had prevented him from doing so 
according to DD's directions. Had the order been following Sirius' 
advice, not only Sirius' death would have prevented, but Harry would 
have recognized the nature of his dreams much earlier, and could have 
got Occlumency lessons in a less antagonistic atmosphere, with DD 
still around to sort out the problems. Sirius, while far from being 
perfect (and who is?) instinctively understood that responsibility 
should go with knowledge, and that the truth is generally preferable, 
a policy which DD preaches but doesn't practice much. Sirius also 
knew immediately that it will never do to let Snape teach Harry, 
while the great DD was above such petty considerations. Next, Sirius 
was the only Order member who at least tried to ensure that Harry 
would have a secure channel of communication to Grimmauld Place, 
another basic precaution that the omniscient DD just neglected to 
take. Finally, when Sirius found out that his orphan godson was in 
danger, naturally he had to go and help him personally. Any decent 
person would have done just that. It was hardly Sirius' fault that he 
got killed in a battle against a larger force, while dueling with a 
DE who had just taken down two aurors. Had Sirius stayed behind and 
left only Lupin, Moody, Kingsley and Tonk to fight against ten DEs, 
it is likely that more than one of them would have got killed, and 
also Harry and/or Neville, before DD would have reached the scene.

In conclusion: with the possible exception of Hermione, Sirius was 
the most far-seeing, levelheaded and responsible person in OotP. This 
is plain canon.

Neri  





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 18 02:42:58 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 02:42:58 -0000
Subject: Binns (was: Re: Perkins again-a minor(?) point)
In-Reply-To: <c3ah2v+8ngk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3b2bi+a3ll@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93284

Dave Hardenbrook wrote:
This is just a quick side note, but it occurs to me that Binns may
be the only being in the whole WW who doesn't know who Harry Potter is!

Eustace_Scrubb responded: 
Possibly (I'm not sure we have any evidence that the Fat Friar or
Bloody Baron know who HP is--but Binns is the only one Harry has
encountered in the books who might not know).  Or does Binns just
think it was James and Lily Perkins who were killed by LV?  In other
words, we know he's muddled, it's just not clear in what way.
 
Carol responds:
Of course we don't get much input from the ghosts other than Nearly
Headless Nick, but it's possible that, being dead, most of them don't
take a great deal of interest in what's going on outside the little
world of Hogwarts, where they chose to remain rather than going on to
whatever awaits the "properly dead" who don't come back. Being already
dead, they can't be killed again, whatever happens to the other
characters (which is not to say that NHN and Myrtle and a few other
ghosts won't play a role of some sort in the war to come).

As for Professor Binns, who apparently was just as obsessed with the
past and oblivious to the present while he was alive as he is now, the
Voldemort wars may be outside the scope of his expertise, which I'm
guessing ends somewhere between the last goblin war and his own death.
If he died before VW1, or for that matter before DD's defeat of
Grindelwald, he may have little interest in modern history and only
the foggiest knowledge of Voldemort and the Boy Who Lived.

Just my thoughts, not a theory worth defending!

Carol, who wonders how any Hogwarts student can pass the History of
Magic O.W.L. if all they learn about is the goblin wars   




From profwildflower at mindspring.com  Thu Mar 18 03:12:44 2004
From: profwildflower at mindspring.com (whimsyflower)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 03:12:44 -0000
Subject: Wormtail's Debt? (was: Re: And then there were/was none)
Message-ID: <c3b43c+p62u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93285

In message 93281, Jen Reese wrote:

>I suspect he (Wormtail) will either find it inside to pay the life debt, or there will be some 
>awful consequence for passing up the opportunity to pay Harry back.

Whimsy:
     Given that JKR said she "almost gave it away" at the end of CoS, and given her penchant 
for serious foreshadowing, my guess is that Wormtail will perform the role the Basilisk did 
in the Chamber of Secrets.  

     "'Help me, help me,' Harry muttered wildly, 'someone - anyone -'  

     The snake's tail whipped across the floor again.  Harry ducked.  Something soft hit his 
face. 

     The basilisk had swept the Sorting Hat into Harry's arms."   
                   (CoS, p. 319 US Hardcover edition)

     And that was how Harry eventually received Godric Gryffindor's sword -- the Basilisk 
"gave" it to him.  I imagine Wormtail will do something natural to him such as the snake's 
whipping its tail across the floor, and will inadvertently give Harry something Harry needs.  
I haven't seen anything in cannon that suggests Wormtail will do anything heroic.  I don't 
think Wormtail will find any particular strength or courage.  Nor do I think he will plan to 
help Harry, Wormtail's advocating LV use a wizard other than Harry for the rebirthing 
ceremony notwithstanding.  I think merely by existing Wormtail will do something that will 
help Harry.  

      I'm enjoying reading people's ideas about Wormtail's possible future 
involvement; I thought I'd toss in my two knuts.           Whimsy




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 18 03:27:36 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 03:27:36 -0000
Subject: LV knows about the Order and repaying a life debt
In-Reply-To: <c3aet7+g52q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3b4v8+iucg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93286

RF wrote:
I think he [Voldemort] would have known about the Order even before
Wormtail came to him. He might not have known much about it or its
members, but someone as intelligent as LV would be able to recognize
that his opposition was organized and included more than Ministry
aurors. He would also surely know that Dumbledore was leading the
opposition. LV's fear of Dumbledore arises not only from Dumbledore's
incredible skill with magic, but also from his ability to inspire
other wizards to oppose him.


Carol:
But I wonder if Wormtail's treachery extends beyond the deaths of
James and Lily and the betrayal of Sirius (not to mention the twelve
dead Muggles). Dumbledore knew that someone in the Order was spying
for LV at least a year before the Potters' deaths and Lupin (I think)
tells Harry that the Death Eaters were picking off the members of the
Order one by one. IOW, LV not only knew there was an Order, he knew
the members' names. Unless there was more than one traitor, it must
have been Peter who revealed those names. If so, PP has a lot to
answer for, and even saving Harry's life to repay his life debt won't
redeem him in my eyes. (I almost forgot poor Cedric, whom he murdered
so coolly on Babymort's orders.)

Which reminds me that another character we've been discussing a lot
lately also has a life debt to repay. Snape was robbed of his chance
to repay his life debt to James by James's untimely death, and I think
at least part of Snape's motive in siding with DD now and (covertly)
helping Harry is his desire to rid himself of that life debt by saving
Harry's life. (He's come very close, but he's never quite succeeded.)

What I want to know is exactly what the consequences of failing to
repay a life debt might be. I don't really care in Wormtail's case,
since he's clearly a coward and a traitor, not to mention a murderer.
But what might it mean to, and for, Snape (beyond that elusive Order
of Merlin, First Class)?

Ideas, anyone?

Carol




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 18 03:38:45 2004
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 03:38:45 -0000
Subject: Sirius was right, Dumbledore was wrong
In-Reply-To: <c3b1sf+98st@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3b5k5+nd6f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93287

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" <nkafkafi at y...> 
wrote:
> I'm not particularly a Sirius' fan, and I didn't cry when he died, 
> but I find it strange how he came to be maligned by many members of 
> the list. The more gracious allow that maybe Kreacher was slipping 
> him befuddlement drought, but most seem to think he just acts the 
hot-
> headed, irresponsible, childish and deluded ex-bully by nature.
> 
> But does he? 
> 
> The facts in OotP state plainly that Sirius was right all along, 
> while DD, as he admits in the end, was wrong. Sirius wanted to tell 
> Harry everything immediately when he came to Grimmauld Place. 
> The "responsible" Molly and Lupin had prevented him from doing so 
> according to DD's directions. Had the order been following Sirius' 
> advice, not only Sirius' death would have prevented, but Harry 
would 
> have recognized the nature of his dreams much earlier, and could 
have 
> got Occlumency lessons in a less antagonistic atmosphere, with DD 
> still around to sort out the problems. Sirius, while far from being 
> perfect (and who is?) instinctively understood that responsibility 
> should go with knowledge, and that the truth is generally 
preferable, 
> a policy which DD preaches but doesn't practice much. Sirius also 
> knew immediately that it will never do to let Snape teach Harry, 
> while the great DD was above such petty considerations. Next, 
Sirius 
> was the only Order member who at least tried to ensure that Harry 
> would have a secure channel of communication to Grimmauld Place, 
> another basic precaution that the omniscient DD just neglected to 
> take. Finally, when Sirius found out that his orphan godson was in 
> danger, naturally he had to go and help him personally. Any decent 
> person would have done just that. It was hardly Sirius' fault that 
he 
> got killed in a battle against a larger force, while dueling with a 
> DE who had just taken down two aurors. Had Sirius stayed behind and 
> left only Lupin, Moody, Kingsley and Tonk to fight against ten DEs, 
> it is likely that more than one of them would have got killed, and 
> also Harry and/or Neville, before DD would have reached the scene.
> 
> In conclusion: with the possible exception of Hermione, Sirius was 
> the most far-seeing, levelheaded and responsible person in OotP. 
This 
> is plain canon.
> 
> Neri


Thank you! I am a Sirius fan and I did cry when he died (Did 
he ? :o)), but I also thought that he sometimes did act irresponsibly 
in OoP. I put most of the blame on great Dumbledore, of course, who 
did not come up with the better plan than to lock already traumatised 
by long imprisonment man in the house, where he did his best to 
escape from as a teenager.

I also think that it is possible that Kreacher poisoned him.

Anyway, you outlined it very nicely. Sirius was right all along


Alla




From nkafkafi at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 18 03:39:17 2004
From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 03:39:17 -0000
Subject: How can LV win the war in three weeks
In-Reply-To: <c38a9t+bumn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3b5l5+99am@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93288

>Erin wrote:
> Though I love the idea of the Imperius virus (extremely scary), I 
> don't believe it would work.  That you can just give someone orders 
> and let them go is not how I see the curse working in the books.  
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> GoF, American 1st ed. Ch. 14, pgs. 212-213
> 
> 
> Moody reached into the jar, caught one of the spiders, and held it 
in 
> the palm of his hand so that they could all see it.  He then 
pointed 
> his wand at it and muttered, "Imperio!"
> 
> The spider leapt from Moody's hand on a fine thread of silk and 
began 
> to swing backward and forward as though on a trapeze.  It stretched 
> out its legs rigidly, then did a back flip, breaking the thread and 
> landing on the desk, where it began to cartwheel in circles.  Moody 
> jerked his wand, and the spider went into what was unmistakeably a 
> tap dance.
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> 
> All right.  The thing is, we don't see Moody give verbal orders for 
> any of the tricks the spider performed.  And it's a sure thing the 
> spider didn't come up with them on its own.  
> 
> So Moody must be maintaining a mental link with the spider.  This 
is 
> how I believe the Imperius curse works.  It allows for mind 
control, 
> and verbal commands are only for greater emphasis.   
> 
> Therefore, Krum under the Imperius curse can be forced to crucio 
> someone, but would not be up to taking over someone else's mind and 
> controlling it for long periods of time.  I also think that it 
would 
> be very difficult for a single wizard to have multiple other 
wizards 
> under Imperius simultaneously.  I don't know what the limit is, but 
I 
> know there is one.


Neri:
Here are the results of a quick research on the Imperius curse, 
something I should have done before:

When imposter!Moody practiced the Imperius on Harry and the rest of 
the kids in his class, he seemed to first cast the spell, then give 
them verbal commands. Maybe the spider didn't understand English, so 
it had to be controlled by will. 

The real Moody spent 9 months in a trunk with nothing to bind him but 
an Imperius curse.

Crouch Jr. was held in his house for 11 years by an Imperius curse 
his father put on him. The father was not at home during working 
hours, at the least. 

Crouch Sr. himself visited Hogwarts twice under the Imperius curse 
(in GoF, during the announcement of the champions and during the 
first task), while his controller (LV) was elsewhere. His behavior 
does seem suspicious in hindsight, but at the time even DD did not 
uncover him. He made decisions that were directed to him by LV, but 
he made them in the correct context as if they were his own 
decisions. 

Lucius Malfoy, who performed many crimes during the first war 
(probably including the Imperius curse), got off by claiming he was 
under the Imperius himself. Although this was a lie, it wouldn't have 
worked as an excuse if it were known to be impossible. 

To conclude: it is not necessary to guide imperio'ed people by 
continuous remote control. They can operate as autonomous agents 
based on verbal commands given in advance. We don't have specific 
canon that an imperio'ed wizard can be directed to effectively 
imperio another wizard, but it certainly seems a possibility. Even 
excluding the idea of the Imperius virus, it seems a prudent 
precaution to devise a test that uncovers imperio'ed agents. Does 
anybody have an idea?

Neri  





From jujupoet29 at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 18 04:07:56 2004
From: jujupoet29 at hotmail.com (sienna291973)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 04:07:56 -0000
Subject: Uncovering the Hidden Pattern of the HP Books
Message-ID: <c3b7as+jto7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93289

It occurred to me some time ago, that there seemed to be a hidden 
pattern to the way the stories in the HP series were structured. 
Something beyond the obvious I mean; some sort of cyclical 
blueprint. At the time, I didn't have the opportunity to take this 
intuition seriously and I forgot all about it. Then, while reading 
some responses to my essay Harry, Hermione and the Sphinx at the 
PortKey (http://talk.portkey.org/index.php?showtopic=6919), I got 
hit by a big brainwave.

The books are repeating themselves. I believe that JKR has set up a 
type of `hexagram' of books, with the first 6 mirroring each other. 
Two triangles. Book 7 I think will stand completely alone.

So, for the sake of this theory ? in one triangle of the hexagram we 
have the first trio of books ? The Philosopher's Stone, The Chamber 
of Secrets and the Prisoner of Azkaban.

In the second triangle ? we have The Goblet of Fire, The Order of 
the Phoenix and Book 6 (whatever it may be called).

In the posts that follow, I will attempt to demonstrate how these 
books mirror each other and what implications this has for Book 6. 
With thanks to the HP Lexicon for the wonderful outlines of each 
book).

Part 1: The Philosopher's Stone and the Goblet of Fire

Mirrored Events 

There are many instances of mirroring between the first and fourth 
books of the series. To begin with, both books begin with an 
experience or event that happens independently of Harry. In PS/SS, 
it's the event where Voldemort kills Harry's family and is 
vanquished. In GoF, it's when Voldemort kills his own family.

In both books, someone from the wizarding world comes to confront 
the Durselys and take Harry to the world where he belongs. In PS/SS 
it is of course Hagrid, who leaves Dudley with a pig's tail in the 
process. In GoF it is the Weasleys who of course leave when the 
twins bestow on Dudley the gift of a huge lolling tongue. After 
PS/SS, it is the first time Dudley is touched by magic again.

In both PS/SS and GoF, Harry finds himself quite suddenly and 
unexpectedly at the centre of attention. In PS/SS, he finds out he 
is a wizard and quite a famous one at that. In GoF, he unexpectedly 
becomes a TriWizard champion, throwing him into the spotlight and 
the `celebrity' limelight again. In fact in PS/SS, Snape actually 
welcomes Hogwart's `new- celebrity' and in GoF, as we know, Harry is 
subjected to the usual pitfalls of fame through the atrocious Rita 
Skeeter. In both cases, his celebrity causes him grief.

After his own sorting into Gryffindor in PS/SS, the first time Harry 
gets to see another sorting is of course in GoF. In fact after 
PS/SS, the first time that Harry's scar hurts again is in GoF.

In PS/SS, Harry sees the images of his parents in the Mirror of 
Erised. In GoF he sees their images in the form of the grey shadows 
that come out of Voldemort's wand. 

In PS/SS, Harry has an experience with a dragon in the form of 
Norbert who is brought into Hogwarts by Hagrid. In GoF, Harry has a 
somewhat more drastic encounter with a full-grown dragon during the 
first task of the tournament. These are the only times, so far, that 
we have seen dragons in the Harry Potter books. We get introduced to 
Charlie in PS/SS when they organise with him to come and take 
Norbert away. The next time we see Charlie, he is again taking care 
of Dragons.

In PS/SS, Harry and co find a dead Unicorn in the forest. In GoF, 
Cedric (the symbolic innocent and the one with the unicorn-tail 
wand) is killed. The quote: "Always the innocent are the first 
victims" is often cited as a foreshadowing of Cedric's death and 
indeed it quite literally was.

In PS/SS, Harry, along with Ron and Hermione, has to pass a series 
of tests to save a magical object (the Philosopher's Stone). These 
tasks (and there are five) are getting past fluffy, getting through 
the devil's snare, catching the flying key, winning a chess game and 
solving a riddle.

In GoF, Harry once again has to get through a series of tests (once 
again there are five). These are beating a boggart, getting through 
a golden mist, getting past a blast-ended screwt, dealing with a 
huge spider and (of course) solving a riddle. As we can see here, 
the common element is solving the riddle ? both instances of which 
are associated with Hermione. See my other essay for an analysis of 
the imagery of the Sphinx and how it relates to H/Hr. The Sphinx of 
course protected the heart of the maze that housed the Goblet much 
as the Potion's riddle was the final barrier before getting to the 
Mirror of Erised.

In both cases, the one who was ultimately responsible for trying to 
kill Harry and bringing him to Voldemort is the DADA teacher (the 
only two books in which a teacher is the culprit). In PS/SS it was 
of course Quirrel. Chapter 17 of the book is called `The Man with 
Two Faces'. In GoF it is False!Moody who is the culprit - a man who 
very literally was a man of `two faces' ? that of his real self 
(Barty Crouch Jr.) and that of the man he is impersonating (Mad Eye 
Moody).

In PS/SS, Harry is saved by the lingering traces of the sacrifice 
his mother made. Quirrel can't touch him. In GoF, we once again see 
Harry's mother. The blood is once again referred to. And even though 
Voldemort can now touch him by virtue of their shared blood, Harry 
is once again saved when his parents and the other ghosts/ shades 
enable him to escape.

Finally, both PS/SS and GoF are characterised by a massive change in 
Harry's life. In PS/SS of course it is the discovery of his heritage 
and the evil legacy that accompanies it. In GoF, it is the return of 
Voldemort.

Mirrored Objects

In PS/SS, the magical object in question is the Philosopher's Stone 
(also called the Sorcerer's Stone). The Stone of course bestows 
limitless gold and immortality on the one who has it. Voldemort goes 
after this stone in order to achieve a return to power and this 
immortality.

In GoF, the magical object in question is the Goblet of Fire. Fake!
Moody of course turns to goblet into a portkey, which takes Harry to 
Voldemort and enables him to return to power. Voldemort himself 
refers to the Stone and the fact that he now sets his sights lower:
 
`There was no hope of stealing the Philosopher's Stone any more, for 
I knew that Dumbledore would have seen to it that it was destroyed.  
But I was willing to embrace mortal life again, before chasing 
immortal.  I set my sights lower
 I would settle for my old body 
back again, and my old strength.'
GoF, pg 569 

So, what are people's thoughts on this? Are there any other thematic 
similarities?

Sienna

Coming Soon: Part 2: The Chamber of Secrets and the Order of the 
Phoenix






From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Thu Mar 18 04:27:54 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 18 Mar 2004 05:27:54 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Moral absolutes/codes (was : Diffrent moral standards)
Message-ID: <20040318042754.D88852D20BB@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 93290

>Geoff:
>I have never said that there is an absolute moral code. I have said 
>that there are moral absolutes such as not killing and not stealing, 
>but moral structures go beyond those which are absolute...

I have given the subject a bit of more thought in between the posts and came to agreement with ??moral absolutes? (nicely differentiated by Geoff from ?absolute moral code?). Quoting:

>Susan:
>Yes, I can!  How about "Don't steal my property", "Don't kill your 
>neighbour", "Don't harm my child"?

The problem as usual lies in implementation. Probably we could cross-culturally agree on ?Do not kill (human being)?, however the definition of ?human being? is culturally dependent and is described by what Geoff called ?the moral code?. I?m not going into many examples of definitions of ?my property?, ?my child? or ?human being?, because I think all of us can imagine a few.
In WW some wizards have obvious problems in thinking Muggles as full human beings. Also Dursleys seem to suffer from this - just in the other way round. Anyway I think JKR made an interesting job, showing as a ?workable possibility? of liquidating such conflicts by isolating potentially conflicting groups (no contact ? no friction). At the same time she shows us it is impossible, and we have to find other ways. One of the less obvious, but more important moral lessons in HP, IMO.

Cheers, Viridis

________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!



From jenjar2001 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 18 01:35:18 2004
From: jenjar2001 at yahoo.com (jenjar2001)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 01:35:18 -0000
Subject: Sirius and Confusing and Befuddlement Draughts
In-Reply-To: <c39gm3+octm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3aucm+h9ku@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93291

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at m...> 
wrote:
>  
> > HunterGreen wrote:
> > I completely agree. Personally, I can see definite clues pointing 
> at 
> > a poisoning storyline, but I don't see the need for it. > 
> 
> > Potioncat wrote:
> I agree, what is the need in the plot for Sirius to be poisoned?  I 
> think it will have to be tied to another episode in book 6 or 7 for 
> it to make sense. 
> 
> But I have a different take on it.  I also think he had very good 
> reasons to be depressed without being poisoned  which is why none 
of the characters ever questioned his behavior or suspected 
poisoning. I think having someone slip him confusing draughts would 
deepen the story. If he hadn't had a reason for being so emotionally 
unstable and no one was picking it up, it would seem like a cheap 
trick.


Jenjar:

Potioncat I agree with you.  I think all the *valid* reasons for 
Sirius' reckless behavior are a red herring to lead us away from the 
fact that he may have been poisoned.  Several posters have pointed 
out the differences between POA Sirius, GOF Sirius, and OoP Sirius. 
POA Sirius and OoP Sirius seem more alike. JKR kind of set up a 
question for us - what is the real Sirius like?  As others have said, 
POA Sirius was recovering from time in Azkaban and probably not his 
most healthy, normal self.  In GOF he was his best self.  In OoP he 
was more reckless, self absorbed and unwise.  Many have argued that 
this is his true nature coming out and a reflection of the 
circumstances he was living in but I believe Sirius was a better man 
than that.  I believe he was being poisoned with a confusing and 
befuddlement draught and that if this had not been the case he would 
have displayed the kind of courage, wisdom and responsibility 
Dumbledore thought he was capable of.  Another possible red herring 
is that we've now seen more weakness in Dumbledore's judgement of 
character and capability so it's easier to believe he was wrong about 
Sirius--but what if he wasn't?






From tipgardner at netscape.net  Thu Mar 18 02:36:12 2004
From: tipgardner at netscape.net (tipgardner)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 02:36:12 -0000
Subject: Petunia had no choice
In-Reply-To: <20040317142327.59884.qmail@web25104.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c3b1us+mrc8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93292

udder_pen_dragon wrote:
 
> Del :said
> Moreover, the fact that DD didn't seem to worry about baby Harry 
> being in danger while out there on the doorstep all night, makes me 
> think that the charm had *already* been sealed, *before* Petunia had 
> any say in the decision.

That doesn't necessarily follow.  For one thing DD's voice says that
she has agreed to the pact in OotP, doesn't it?  Also, once Voldie had
fallen that did not appear to be a threat and certainly no DEs would
know where HP's muggle relatives lived yet.

udder_pen_dragon:
> I believe that Petunia was aware of her sister's situation in
advance and she knew what would be happening in the event of James and
Lilly's death and Harry living.

Sirius would have taken in Harry had he not been implicated in Harry's
parents' murders, not Petunia.





From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 18 02:49:37 2004
From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (Ms Mo Me)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 18:49:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 4356
In-Reply-To: <1079551559.15395.9421.m7@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040318024937.76343.qmail@web13506.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93293

Dave:

Am I the the only one who is really, REALLY finding it
impossible to
believe that there's ANYTHING Wormtail could possibly
do to make
Harry "glad he saved his life", as Dumbledore says? 
Yes, he may
someday reciprocate and save Harry's life, but after
all the damage
he's done and probably will do before that day comes,
I don't think
Harry will ever be happy or grateful about it.

-- 

I think LV would have come back to power anyway
(Crouch Jr. escaping)  It just would have been
delayed.  So, in essence, I think that saving Wormtail
does give HP an advantage in a possibly fatal future
situation.

Ms Mo Me




From a_b_desert_king at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 18 03:04:56 2004
From: a_b_desert_king at hotmail.com (a_b_desert_king)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 03:04:56 -0000
Subject: Sirius was right, Dumbledore was wrong
In-Reply-To: <c3b1sf+98st@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3b3ko+hbgf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93294

Neri wrote:

> The facts in OotP state plainly that Sirius was right all along, 
> while DD, as he admits in the end, was wrong. Sirius wanted to 
tell Harry everything immediately when he came to Grimmauld Place. 
> The "responsible" Molly and Lupin had prevented him from doing so 
> according to DD's directions. Had the order been following Sirius' 
> advice, not only Sirius' death would have prevented, but Harry 
would have recognized the nature of his dreams much earlier, and 
could have got Occlumency lessons in a less antagonistic atmosphere, 
with DD still around to sort out the problems. Sirius, while far 
from being perfect (and who is?) instinctively understood that 
responsibility should go with knowledge, and that the truth is 
generally preferable, 
> a policy which DD preaches but doesn't practice much. Sirius also 
> knew immediately that it will never do to let Snape teach Harry, 
> while the great DD was above such petty considerations. Next, 
Sirius 
> was the only Order member who at least tried to ensure that Harry 
> would have a secure channel of communication to Grimmauld Place, 
> another basic precaution that the omniscient DD just neglected to 
> take. Finally, when Sirius found out that his orphan godson was in 
> danger, naturally he had to go and help him personally. Any decent 
> person would have done just that.


Heather says:

Here, here Neri.  My sentiments exactly. There were only two things 
in OotP which bothered me:
1) Harry's attitude (but after the second reading I got over that - 
I guess we forget all too easily what it was like to be a teen) and,
2) The fact that nobody ever tells Harry stuff.  I would think that 
if Harry's life were in danger, people in the know would warn him 
and help him to protect himself.

If Harry really is the only way to defeat LV, then giving him all 
the information at hand would be a good idea - he might actually be 
able to help them out.  Instead, he is made to feel like an 
untrustworthy child and in turn feels he cannot trust anyone else. 
(except maybe Sirius - but even then he is so concerned for Sirius' 
welfare that he won't talk to him either).  If he had felt that DD 
trusted him then he probably would have discussed the dreams with DD 
and they could have prevented Harry's trip to MoM.  After all, Harry 
didn't even hear the prophesy from the MoM.  He heard it from DD in 
the end. The only thing that trip served to accomplish was the 
destruction of the 'official' copy of the prophesy and the capture 
of several key DEs. (oh yeah - and to prove to MoM officials that LV 
really *has* returned).

But I digress - after all, without the trip to the MoM, then so many 
clues would have been left out and we wouldn't have such a wonderful 
mystery to mull over....  :)

Heather - who cried for Harry's grief over losing Sirius rather than 
for Sirius' death.  But I *will* cry if Lupin dies.....





From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Thu Mar 18 04:35:17 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 04:35:17 -0000
Subject: "Snape's Job"
In-Reply-To: <20040317101825.2701.qmail@web61109.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c3b8u5+2q5b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93295

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Elihu Falk <falkelihu at y...> 
wrote:
> Sigune wrote: 
> <snip>
> I quote:
> <'That is just as well, Potter,' said Snape coldly, 'because you 
are neither special nor important, and it is not up to you to find 
out what the Dark lord is saying to his Death Eaters.'
> 'No - that's your job, isn't it?' Harry shot at him.
> He had not meant to say it; it had burst out of him in temper. For 
a long moment they stared at each other, Harry convinced he had gone 
too far. But there was a curious, almost satisfied expression on 
Snape's face when he answered.
> 'Yes, Potter,' he said, his eyes glinting. 'That is my job. Now, if 
you are ready, we will start again.'>
> 
> What on earth is Snape so (almost) satisfied about? Snape being 
Snape, I suddenly started to wonder if he is pleased that Harry 
should think he is spying whereas in fact he isn't (?!) - but that 
does not seem to make much sense to me. And I find his suddenly 
glinting eyes quite alarming. Any theories? Please?
> 
> Elihu's answer:
> 
> I think Snape wants 2 things:
> 
> 1) Harry recognize that Snape is a good guy.
> 2) Harry not compete with Snape over the job of spying on Voldemort.
> 
> The second thing, I believe, is related to the question of why 
Malfoy was friendly with Karkaroff, who had caused Rookwood to go to 
Azkaban. M alfoy and Macnair were on close terms with important 
Ministry people, and possibly saw Rookwood as competition, so they 
were happy, to a degree, when he was caught.
> 
I just read this same section to my kids last night and I thought of 
something else.  Who came in the room next?  Who was there right 
before?  Snape is an excellent Occlumens but he cannot hide from 
Harry (or DD) what is happening with Voldemort if Harry is watching.  
If he is playing two sides against the middle and Harry drifted off 
to sleep just seconds after, or woke up just seconds before Snape was 
sharing information he would not want anyone in the Order to know he 
was sharing, he would have every reason to be even "more angry" at 
Harry than he was when Harry burst into his very brain.

If it was not Snape himself, perhaps he knew how close Harry came to 
discovering something else the Order is trying to hide from everyone, 
perhaps something only DD and Snape know about Voldemort and his 
followers. (There's my theory for the good guy Snape folks :)...)

Adjusting her seat on the fence,
Sue




From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Thu Mar 18 05:23:16 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 05:23:16 -0000
Subject: On the other hand (was Re: Disliked Uncle Vernon)
In-Reply-To: <c39kri+6d0o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3bbo4+k2jg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93296

---Snip of earlier posts by Sue and DEl
Del wrote:
> Okay, I didn't express my feelings clearly on that one.
> What I am against is that idea that the Dursleys should change on 
> their own, that they should wake up one day and say : "Hey, we've 
> been lying for years, we always knew we were doing wrong, we are 
> evil, what we've done to Harry is horrible !" That would be awful 
in 
> my idea, because it would imply that whoever is doing bad things 
> (things the kids think are bad) necessarily knows they are doing 
> something evil and they are doing it out of pure evilness and they 
> can just be forced to admit it and to change it. It's just not 
> always that simple. The Dursleys probably know that their solution 
> to their problem (Harry) is not the only one, the one the WW would 
> approve of, but they might not see a way out. I would like them to 
> be shown the way through *love* and help, not through force. After 
> all, many people on this list believe that Harry will beat LV 
> through love, so what's so crazy about my request that the Dursleys 
> should be shown love as well ?? I want the kids who read the books 
> to learn that too often, when some people do bad things, it's 
> because they don't know much better, but they will change if they 
> are guidely nicely. I want the kids to learn that the school bully 
> might need just as much help as the kids he's beating, that the 
> nasty teacher might be hurting just as much as the kids he's 
> belittling (as some say Snape does), that the grouchy old neighbour 
> might just be desperately alone, etc... I want kids to learn that a 
> behaviour can be bad, but that most of the time the person isn't, 
> and that with adequate help (not beating and hate) they can change 
> that behaviour.
> And yes in my idea abuse falls under the category of bad 
behaviours. 
> And I also know it's hard to love an abuser.
> 
> Del

This is the first thing you have written which made sense to me. 
Remember, I'm the one who chose to teach in South Central Los 
Angeles. It has never been my belief that anyone should by forced to 
say "I'm sorry" by someone more powerful than they are.  I don't even 
force my kids to apologize, not until they understand the reason they 
are doing it.  I believe the Dursley's (at least Petunia and Dudley) 
are capable of understanding the "wrongness" of their choices, and 
they were choices.  As I said they are redeemable.  In the end, and 
maybe in the beginning of book 6 given the circumstances, I think 
Harry will actually feel gratitude for the fact that he is still 
alive because of them and probably say so to his aunt.  That, I 
believe, will be the beginning of the dialogue between them.  
Undoubtedly Harry will have to make the first move for that dialogue 
to happen. And you are right in saying the only way to solve any of 
the hurt is for two way understanding and (sap, sap, sappy) love, or 
at least an agreement to stop hating.

As for choice in the matter DD said:
"But she took you....  She may have taken you grudgingly, furiously, 
unwillingly, bitterly, yet still she took you." (OotP US 836) 

There is no question she did not want to raise Harry, but she didn't 
want him dead either.  The implication of the statement DD makes is 
that she did exercise choice.  She may have felt there was no way she 
could live with herself if she let the child die and she spent the 
next 10 years punishing Harry because of her own feelings of 
entrapment and resentment.  We don't know. I hope we will.  With 
every act of abuse toward Harry, Petunia knew what she was doing and 
who she was betraying: "but your eyes, they're exactly like your 
mother's", Lilly knows those eyes too.  Vernon was betraying only 
Harry, he was scapegoating and so was Dudley.  

I'm glad we finally hit some common ground (at least a little).
Sue





From jujupoet29 at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 18 07:22:11 2004
From: jujupoet29 at hotmail.com (sienna291973)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 07:22:11 -0000
Subject: Unlocking the Hidden Pattern: Part 2
Message-ID: <c3bin4+7arg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93297

Okay fellow Potterers and Potterites... Welcome to Part 2 of 
Uncovering the Hidden Pattern.

Part 2: The Chamber of Secrets and the Order of the Phoenix

So, in the last post we examined the similarities and mirroring 
events of PS/SS and GoF.  We saw that these two books represent the 
first tip of their respective triangles of books.  In CoS and OoTP, 
we see this pattern developed further, as demonstrated below:

When CoS begins, Harry believes that his friends have forgotten him:

`See what it's like here?' he said. `See why I've
got to go back to 
Hogwarts? It's the only place I've got ? well, I think
I've got 
friends.' 
`Friends who don't even write to Harry Potter?' said
Dobby slyly
CoS, pg 19

 In OoTP Harry once again believes that his friends are neglecting 
him:

As far as Harry could tell from the vague hints in their letters, 
Hermione and Ron were in the same place, presumably at Ron's 
parents' house.  He could hardly bear to think of the pair of
them 
having fun at The Burrow when he was stuck in Privet Drive.  In 
fact, he was so angry with them he had thrown away, unopened, the 
two boxes of Honeydukes chocolates they'd sent him for his
birthday.
OoTP, pg 13

Later, in CoS Harry is locked in his room around-the-clock by the 
Durselys after the Dobby fiasco.  This goes on for three days:

They let Harry out to use the bathroom morning and evening.  
Otherwise, he was locked in his room around the clock
 Three days 
later, the Dursleys were showing no sign of relenting

CoS, pg 21-2

In OoTP, Harry once again finds himself in the house around the 
clock after being attacked by Dementors, once again for three days:

Harry spent the day in his bedroom, leaving it only to go to the 
bathroom. Three times that day Aunt Petunia shoved food under his 
room through the cat-flap Uncle Vernon had installed three summers 
ago
 So it went on for three whole days.
OoTP, pg 44

In CoS, Harry is given an official warning for using magic outside 
of Hogwarts; In OoTP, Harry is of course expelled and then suspended 
for the same reason.

In both CoS and OoTP, Harry flies away from Privet Drive right under 
the Dursleys unsuspecting noses.  In CoS it is Ron, Fred and George 
who rescue Harry in the flying car(while the Dursleys are 
sleeping).  In OoTP, it is Professors Lupin, Moody and co who take 
him away on brooms (while the Dursleys are out).

In both CoS and OoTP, Harry is then introduced to a new residence. 
In CoS, it is The Burrow, while in OoTP it is Grimmauld Place.

The school year then starts.  Here we see another startling 
similarity.  In both CoS and OoTP, the vast majority of students 
think Harry is either dangerous, mad or both. In CoS they suspect 
him of being Slytherin's heir and in OoTP they suspect him of
either 
lying or being `a-couple-of-cents-short-of-a-dollar' as we
say here 
in Oz. Either way, he is vilified in both books.

In both, he also eventually earns an apology for this from a student 
who suspected him. In CoS, it's Ernie McMillan and in OoTP,
it's 
Seamus Finnigan.

In both CoS and OoTP Harry has detention with his DADA teacher.  In 
CoS he is writing addresses for Lockhart, in OoTP it's lines
using 
blood from his own hand. In fact, after CoS, the first time we see 
Lockhart again is in OoTP.

In CoS, Ginny becomes possessed by Voldemort.  In OoTP, we see Harry 
believing that he is possessed by Voldemort.  Once again, the first 
time we hear anything at all about Ginny's experience after CoS
is 
in OoTP.

In both books Dumbledore is forced to leave Hogwarts.  In CoS he is 
forced by Lucius Malfoy who has bribed the School governors : 

`However,' said Dumbledore, speaking very slowly and clearly,
so 
that none of them could miss a word, `you will find that I will
only 
truly have left this school when none here are loyal to me.'
CoS, pg 195

In OoTP, this is mirrored when Dumbledore is forced to leave to 
escape the Ministry: 

`Where will you go, Dumbledore?' whispered Professor 
McGonagall. `Grimmauld Place?' 
`Oh no,' said Dumbledore, with a grim smile, `I am not
leaving to go 
into hiding.  Fudge will soon wish he'd never dislodged me from 
Hogwarts, I promise you.'
OoTP, pg 548

Both CoS and OoTP highlight Harry's connection to Voldemort. In
CoS 
it's when Harry learns that he speaks Parceltongue and Dumbledore 
explains the connection between them.  In OoTP, this connection 
becomes more pronounced (endangering Harry) and Harry actually has 
visions where he IS Voldemort and, more particularly, is a snake.  
In CoS Harry is concerned when he shares similar talents and 
physical characteristics.  In OoTP, Harry gets momentarily subsumed 
by Voldemort completely.

In both books, Harry's connection with Voldemort gives him
insight 
into what is going on and warns him that people are in danger.  In 
CoS, this is because he hears the Basilisk in the pipes, while in 
OoTP, the warnings he receives are in his dreams.  

In CoS, Diary!Voldemort lures Harry into a trap by using Ginny as 
bait.  In OoTP, the real Voldemort does exactly the same by leading 
Harry to believe that Sirius is in danger.

In both books Harry heads down into a hidden area.  In CoS it's
the 
Chamber of Secrets. In OoTP, this is mirrored when he and his 
friends head into the Department of Mysteries.  The relationship 
between `secrets' and `mysteries' is obvious.  Both
are underground 
areas.

In CoS, a memory charm is aimed at Ron (a spell aimed at the mind) 
and backfires. In OoTP, Ron actually does get attacked ? by a
brain 
and tentacles of thought.

In both CoS and OoTP we see Harry kneeling over the figure of a 
female friend who has been severely wounded.  In CoS, it is Ginny: 

`Ginny!' Harry muttered, sprinting to her and dropping to his 
knees. `Ginny! Don't be dead! Please don't be dead!'
CoS, pg 226

In OoTP, it is Hermione (although the reaction, understandably is 
more pronounced): 

'HERMIONE!'
Harry fell to his knees beside her as Neville crawled rapidly 
towards her from under the desk
 A whine of panic inside his head 
was preventing him thinking properly: he had one hand on
Hermione's 
shoulder, which was still warm, yet did not dare look at her 
properly.  Don't let her be dead, don't let her be dead,
it's my 
fault if she's dead

OoTP, pg 699

In both CoS and OoTP, Fawkes plays a big role in the final conflict: 

In CoS Fawkes helps Harry:

As Harry trembled, ready to close his eyes if it turned, he saw what 
had distracted the snake.
Fawkes was soaring around its head, and the Basilisk was snapping 
furiously at him
 Fawkes dived. His long golden beak sank out of 
sight and a sudden shower of dark blood spattered the floor

Harry 
looked straight into its face, and saw that its eyes, both its great 
bulbous yellow eyes, had been punctured by the phoenix

CoS, pg 235

In OoTP, of course, Fawkes once again comes into play: 

'Look out!' Harry yelled.
But even as he shouted, another jet of green light flew at 
Dumbledore from Voldemort's wand and the snake struck - 
Fawkes swooped down in front of Dumbldore, opened his beak wide and 
swallowed the jet of green light whole: he burst into flame and fell 
to the floor, small, wrinkled and flightless.
OoTP, pg 719

When was the last time Fawkes burst into flame?  CoS of course.

I am sure that, if we were to do a more thorough line-by-line 
analysis, more mirroring events could be found. But by and large 
these are the main ones.

The point of all this?

You shall see in the next post:  Part 3: The Prisoner of Azkaban and 
Predicting Book 6.

Sienna





From olivier.fouquet+harry at m4x.org  Thu Mar 18 07:30:30 2004
From: olivier.fouquet+harry at m4x.org (olivierfouquet2000)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 07:30:30 -0000
Subject: Sirius was right, Dumbledore was wrong
In-Reply-To: <c3b1sf+98st@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3bj6m+ddlk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93298

> The facts in OotP state plainly that Sirius was right all along, 
> while DD, as he admits in the end, was wrong. Sirius wanted to tell 
> Harry everything immediately when he came to Grimmauld Place. 
> The "responsible" Molly and Lupin had prevented him from doing so 
> according to DD's directions. Had the order been following Sirius' 
> advice, not only Sirius' death would have prevented, but Harry would 
> have recognized the nature of his dreams much earlier, and could have 
> got Occlumency lessons in a less antagonistic atmosphere, with DD 
> still around to sort out the problems. Sirius, while far from being 
> perfect (and who is?) instinctively understood that responsibility 
> should go with knowledge, and that the truth is generally preferable, 
> a policy which DD preaches but doesn't practice much. Sirius also 
> knew immediately that it will never do to let Snape teach Harry, 
> while the great DD was above such petty considerations. Next, Sirius 
> was the only Order member who at least tried to ensure that Harry 
> would have a secure channel of communication to Grimmauld Place, 
> another basic precaution that the omniscient DD just neglected to 
> take. Finally, when Sirius found out that his orphan godson was in 
> danger, naturally he had to go and help him personally. Any decent 
> person would have done just that. It was hardly Sirius' fault that he 
> got killed in a battle against a larger force, while dueling with a 
> DE who had just taken down two aurors. Had Sirius stayed behind and 
> left only Lupin, Moody, Kingsley and Tonk to fight against ten DEs, 
> it is likely that more than one of them would have got killed, and 
> also Harry and/or Neville, before DD would have reached the scene.
> 
> In conclusion: with the possible exception of Hermione, Sirius was 
> the most far-seeing, levelheaded and responsible person in OotP. This 
> is plain canon.
> 
> Neri

Now Olivier:

Great to see Sirius rightfully defended! I am totally with you: Sirius was right and the more 
"responsible" Molly and Dumbledore were wrong. I have always been particularly irked by 
people describing his coming to the MoM as rash whereas he's saving the life of his 
godson (not to mention the life of Ginny and Ron, whose parents didn't show up). 

That said, I think many people failed to see that because JKR cleverly mixed Sirius being 
instinctively right with Sirius failing to act reasonably. His suggestion that he come to 
Hogsmead as Padfoot and the way he stopped the discussion afterward was plain cruel to 
Harry for one thing. He's depressive, alcoholic, egoistical and was a bully. I always thought 
it was great from the JKR the way she has been able to balance character in OoP: Harry is 
rightfully angered against DD yet it caused Sirius' death, Sirius is right about his choice yet 
he looks completely irresponsible, Hermione is ever so clever yet she fails to achieve 
anything with SPEW (and with her feelings IMHO but that's more subtle), DD is ever so 
powerful yet his plan to spare Harry backfired, Snape had resaons to loathe James after all 
yet his failure to master his feeelings (supposedly his great ability) has dreadful 
consequences...

Great post anyway!

Olivier








From gbannister10 at aol.com  Thu Mar 18 07:45:33 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 07:45:33 -0000
Subject: "Snape's Job"
In-Reply-To: <c3b0oj+ql04@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3bk2t+jidl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93299

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" 
<justcarol67 at y...> wrote:
 
> Carol:
> Maybe I'm naive, but I interpret this exchange as the first moment 
of
> real and honest communication between Snape and Harry (further
> evidenced by the first bits of praise Harry has ever received from
> Snape)--all ruined later when Harry looks into the Pensieve and 
Snape
> angrily ends the occlumency lessons. As for the "glint," it's
> perceived by Harry, and he (or we, the readers) could be reading
> malice into what is really just a gleam or glimmer or satisfaction
> (Potter understands something at last). My dictionary (or the one I
> happened to grab) lists as the primary definition of "glint": "a 
gleam
> or glimmer; sparkle; flash." No suggestion that the glint is
> associated with evil or ill will.

Geoff:
I had an interesting thought - possibly a blind alley. My first 
reaction on reading "glint" took 
me to:

"Something gold was glinting just above him. The Snitch! He tried to 
catch it but his arms were too heavy.
He blinked. It wasn't the Snitch at all. It was a pair of glasses. 
How strange.
He blinked again. The smiling face of Albus Dumbldore swam into view 
above him."

(PS "The Man with Two Faces" p.214 UK edition)

Gives the word a slightly warmer feel, think you not?





From erinellii at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 18 08:12:59 2004
From: erinellii at yahoo.com (Erin)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 08:12:59 -0000
Subject: Imperius Curse: Pure Mechanics or Maintained Mindlink?
In-Reply-To: <c3b5l5+99am@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3blmb+4rlm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93300

I retitled the thread in hopes of getting some more opinions.  It 
was "How LV can win the war in just 3 weeks".

Neri posed the chilling idea of the "Imperius virus", a devious plot 
in which any Death Eater can simply go out into the street, Imperio a 
hapless bystander wizard, and give him three simple commands.

1. Be a good servant of the Dark Lord.
2. Go and imperio other wizards.
3. Give them these three directions.

Others then pointed out that these directions needed a bit of fine-
tuning, but the general consensus was that, hey, this thing could 
work!  Just like a computer virus, it would quickly spread throughout 
the world....

And this was scary.  So scary that I (Erin) had to come up with some 
quick objections just so I could go to sleep at night. ;-)

 So I took a quick look at the chapter where we first see Imperius, 
and, based on the example of the spider who performs tricks without 
specific verbal instructions, posited that the Imperius is not a 
strictly mechanical spell wherin you can just order someone to do 
something and then forget all about it and send them on their merry 
way.  Instead (says I) the Imperius is a mind link which requires 
constant control.

Neri, who has tirelessly responded to every single response to this 
thread (for which she has my sincere admiration) answered, saying;

 > Neri: 
> When imposter!Moody practiced the Imperius on Harry and the rest of 
> the kids in his class, he seemed to first cast the spell, then gave 
> them verbal commands. Maybe the spider didn't understand English, 
so it had to be controlled by will. 

Erin responds:
Yes, but just the fact that the spider *can* be controlled by will 
alone, without verbal commands, is significant.

And does he actually give verbal commands to the students?  I don't 
believe that I can find any conclusive canon evidence that he does.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GoF, American 1st ed. Ch 15. pg 231

Moody began to beckon students forward in turn and put the Imperius 
curse upon them.  Harry watched as, one by one, his classmates did 
the most extraordinary things under its influence.  Dean Thomas 
hopped three times around the room, singing the national anthem.  
Lavender Brown imitated a squirrel.  Neville performed a series of 
quite astonishing gymnastics he certainly would not have been capable 
of in his normal state.  Not one of them seemed to be able to fight 
off the curse, and each of them recovered only when Moody had removed 
it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Erin:
See there?  No verbal commands shown.  Of course, the part you are 
probably thinking of is this one:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GoF, American 1st ed. Ch. 15. pgs 231-232

And then he heard Mad-Eye Moody's voice, echoing in some distant 
corner of his empty brain: *Jump onto the desk*...*jump onto the 
desk*...

Harry bent his knees obediently, preparing to spring.

Why, though?  Another voice had awoken in the back of his brain.

Stupid thing to do, really, said the voice.

*Jump onto the desk*...

No, I don't think I will, thanks, said the other voice, a little more 
firmly... no, I really don't want to....

*Jump! NOW!*

The next thing Harry felt was considerable pain.  He had both jumped 
and tried to prevent himself from jumping....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Erin:
See, to me that part is ambiguous at best.  The viewpoint is from 
inside Harry's head, and it's unclear whether or not Moody is 
actually speaking aloud.

Sure, it describes Harry as hearing Moody's "voice", but it also says 
that voice is coming from "a distant corner of his empty brain". It 
also characterizes Harry's own thoughts as a "voice", and  we know 
that they are not spoken aloud.  It reads to me as if the struggle is 
taking place *only* in Harry's head.

Not to mention that last "Jump! NOW!" from Moody/Crouch Jr. .  Would 
he really have snarled aloud like that at a student out where others 
could hear him?  I don't think so.  Too nasty for the guy he's 
pretending to be.

To reinforce this, one paragraph later Moody/Crouch Jr. has to 
explain to the class what just went on; "Look at that, you 
lot...Potter fought it!  He fought it, and he damn near beat it!"  If 
the class had heard Moody trying repeatedly *out loud* to force Harry 
onto the desk, this would have already been obvious to them.  


Neri: 
> The real Moody spent 9 months in a trunk with nothing to bind him 
but an Imperius curse.

Erin:
I would guess that the command most often given to the real Moody 
was "sleep".  Probably he was only allowed to wake up for feedings 
and to pump him for information about how he would behave in certain 
situations.  Keeping him asleep most of the time would have required 
only a very low-level mind link from Crouch Jr., freeing him to pay 
attention to his classes and school business.

 Besides which, the Imperius curse was *not* the only thing which 
bound him.  When he first discovers the real Moody at the bottom of 
the trunk, Dumbledore says "Stunned- controlled by the Imperius curse-
 very weak,".   So Moody is obviously kept stunned a good deal of the 
time as well, eliminating the need for any mental contact at all.

The fact that Moody has to be kept stunned and asleep much of the 
time would seem to be a point in favour of my argument that Imperius 
is a mind link.  If Jr. could simply have told Moody to "stay here 
and stay quiet" and trusted it to keep, then stunning him would not 
have been nessacery.


Neri: 
> Crouch Jr. was held in his house for 11 years by an Imperius curse 
> his father put on him. The father was not at home during working 
> hours, at the least. 

Erin:
Noooo, it's true that Crouch Sr. wasn't at home, and probably most of 
his attention was focused on his job while at work, BUT he had Winky 
there to guard Crouch Jr. 24/7 for him.  I don't think Winky would 
have been nessacery if Crouch could have just given one command in 
the morning and been confident of it sticking all day long while his 
attention was elsewhere.
 
Neri:
> Crouch Sr. himself visited Hogwarts twice under the Imperius curse 
> (in GoF, during the announcement of the champions and during the 
> first task), while his controller (LV) was elsewhere. His behavior 
> does seem suspicious in hindsight, but at the time even DD did not 
> uncover him. He made decisions that were directed to him by LV, but 
> he made them in the correct context as if they were his own 
> decisions. 

Erin:
Ah, you're assuming that the controller has to be close to the victim 
in order for the link to work.  Now your objections make a lot more 
sense to me.  But I don't see why that has to be the case.  What if 
the link worked regardless of distance?  What if the controller were 
able to see and hear everything that Crouch saw and heard and feed 
him appropriate responses over the miles?

Also I'd like to say that I don't believe LV was Crouch Sr.'s 
controller.  Wormtail was.  When Crouch escapes, Voldemort calls it 
Wormtail's blunder.  So even if the mindlink had required constant 
close-up supervision, Wormtail could have been in Crouch's pocket in 
rat form to do it.


Neri: 
> Lucius Malfoy, who performed many crimes during the first war 
> (probably including the Imperius curse), got off by claiming he was 
> under the Imperius himself. Although this was a lie, it wouldn't 
have worked as an excuse if it were known to be impossible. 

Erin:
You've lost me a wee bit on this one.  I'm not claiming that it is 
impossible to force people to commit horrible crimes under Imperius, 
quite the contrary; we have canon evidence that it is possible.  So 
most of the crimes he commited would be no bar to Lucius's Imperius 
plea.

I am saying that it would be impossible for one person to force 
another to cast Imperius while under Imperius themselves.  We have no 
canon that Lucius cast Imperius on anyone during VW1, it is simply a 
widespread fan assumption.  But even if he *had* (and as an Imperio'd!
Arthur devotee, I admit that I also believe that he did) that 
evidence could have simply not come out during his trial, or hearing, 
or whatever went on when he "got off" on the Imperius plea.



Neri: 
> To conclude: it is not necessary to guide imperio'ed people by 
> continuous remote control. They can operate as autonomous agents 
> based on verbal commands given in advance. 

Erin:
Sorry, but I remain unconvinced that this is proven at all.  But by 
the by, I've just noticed your name is mine in Pig Latin!  At least, 
I think it is.  It's been a while since I spoke Pig Latin :-)


  
Neri:
 Even excluding the idea of the Imperius virus, it seems a prudent 
precaution to devise a test that uncovers imperio'ed agents. Does 
anybody have an idea?
 
Erin:
Now that's a good one.  But given that the Imperius curse was a big 
problem the last time around and apparently this wasn't done then, 
perhaps the question we should be asking is "why not?  what prevented 
the WW from testing for Imperious?"  


Erin





From jujupoet29 at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 18 08:39:58 2004
From: jujupoet29 at hotmail.com (sienna291973)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 08:39:58 -0000
Subject: Unlocking the Hidden Pattern: Final Installment
Message-ID: <c3bn8u+3e5h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93301

So, this is the last part of my long theory.  (Sorry for length guys)

Lets begin by summarising what we have discovered in Parts 1 and 2.

1. The first six books of the Harry Potter series form two triads of 
stories which mirror each other to form a kind of 
literary `hexagram'.

2. The second three mirror and inflate events in the first three. 
Events in the second three books therefore will be more severe than 
in the first books. For instance - VapourMort in PS/SS mirrored by a 
returned-to-power Voldemort in GoF; Lucius rigging it so Dumbledore 
has to leave Hogwarts in CoS mirrored by Dumbledore being forced to 
flee the Ministry itself in OoTP; and so on.

3. The titles of the first three will be mirrored by the titles of 
the second three.

With this in mind, we should be able to make some predictions of 
what will happen in Book 6.

Just to reiterate ? if this is correct, Book 7 will stand alone.

Part 3: Prisoner of Azkaban and Book 6

What were the main events in PoA?

1.Harry blows up his Aunt Marge and runs away from Privet Drive. He 
is picked up the Knight Bus.

2.Harry escapes punishment for using magic outside Hogwarts

3.Dementors are sent to Hogwarts to search for the escaped prisoner 
Sirius Black; Hogwarts is therefore in danger

4.We learn that Harry's life may be in danger

5.We are introduced to Professor Lupin, the new DADA teacher and one 
of James Potter's best friends

6.Ron and Hermione have a falling-out over their pets; Ron and Harry 
have a falling-out with Hermione over Harry's broom

7.Harry is taught a difficult spell by Professor Lupin which he 
masters despite its advanced nature (the Patronus)

8.Harry inherits the Marauder's Map

9.Professor Trelawny makes a real prediction

10.Harry learns a lot about his parents and their death

11.Ron is seriously injured when Sirius drags him into the Whomping 
Willow and when Wormtail escapes

12.Moony, Padfoot and Wormtail are reunited

13.We are introduced to the Time-turner

14.Harry and Hermione go for a ride on Buckbeak

15.Sirius Black is not who Harry thought he was (i.e. guilty of 
betraying his parents)

16.Harry uses his new learnt skill (Patronus) to save the day

17.Harry and Hermione save an innocent man

OK, so what does this tell us? I'm open to all suggestions here 
people (let your imaginations go):

1.Firstly, I'm predicting that Harry will leave Privet Drive of his 
own accord. He won't be there long and I'm predicting he'll probably 
leave because he's in some sort of danger.

2.I think Hogwarts will come under attack. I think Voldemort will 
make a play for the school and Harry and co will be forced to defend 
it. (An exaggerated version of the Dementors at the school in PoA).

3.I think Harry will learn a key new skill (perhaps he'll master 
Occlumency?) but it will be the key to saving the school at the end 
of the book. (An exaggerated version of the Patronus in PoA).

4.I think the DADA teacher will be key to Harry learning this new 
skill and will be someone from Harry's side ? perhaps Dumbledore 
himself??

5.The trio will come under severe pressure ? I think we will 
actually see some evolution and movement in their relationships with 
each other.

6.Look for Ron to be in some mortal danger. If he was so seriously 
injured in PoA, then he's going to come under a huge attack in Bk 6. 
In fact, if the chess game (PS) and the Whomping Willow scene are to 
be believed, I believe it could be Bellatrix who does it. Whether he 
dies or not, I'm not really sure. Let's hope not.

7.Wormtail will definitely figure again. The life-bond between him 
and Harry will come into play here.

8.Harry will tell Ron and Hermione about the prophecy. There could 
be some evolution here on what part it will have to play in the 
final book.

9.The time-turner will once again become important. Perhaps we will 
see a further use of the concept explored in the Department of 
Mysteries as well.

10.Buckbeak will be back (I'd almost put money on it) and will play 
a role.

11.Harry will learn something new about his parents and/ or his past.

12.Harry (and team) will be directly responsible for saving the 
school, setting us up for a HUGE book 7.





From delwynmarch at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 18 09:37:20 2004
From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 09:37:20 -0000
Subject: Different moral standards (was : On the other hand)
In-Reply-To: <c3a61h+tdrj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3bqkg+pm53@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93302

 
> "K"
> 
> I can assure you it's not biology or social strategy that tells me 
> I must have chocolate and fast, fatty foods.  

Del :

Well... Actually, your body's biochemistry *does* have a say in what 
you're attracted to. As well as your global education.

K :
> It's all my choice. As is everything else I do in life.

Del :
Well, you're lucky ! There are quite a few things in my life that 
are not at all my choice. Depression, for example. I can choose to 
fight it, but I can't choose to have it or not.

> Geoff:
> >I am sure there are many of our posters who 
> > will agree with me that we are humans created by God...
> 
> Oh, I absolutely agree!

Del :
I agree too. But I don't expect everyone else to agree, and I won't 
base my reasonings on the idea that everyone believes as I do.

K :
> *surely it's not biology that makes Voldy murder*

Del :
Some people *do* get "high" on torture : look at Bellatrix, she sure 
seems to enjoy Cruciating people. Which is where personal ethics 
come into play : we mustn't do something just because it gives us 
pleasure. But when those ethics are warped, missing or have been 
silenced over time, only the instincts (biology) remain ...

Del




From delwynmarch at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 18 09:41:35 2004
From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 09:41:35 -0000
Subject: Changing Houses
In-Reply-To: <c3a9af+vsk9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3bqsf+8g2q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93303


> > Del :
> > Moreover, in CoS, Harry is very troubled by the fact that the 
> > Sorting Hat wanted to put him in Slytherin, it's his dark little 
> > secret, and we are told that he hasn't mentioned it to anyone. 
> > And as far as I can remember, he still hasn't.
> 
> Geoff: Yes he has. He told Dumbledore.
> 
> "'Professor,' he started again after a moment,'the Sorting Hat 
> told me I'd - I'd havedome well in Slytherin.....'"
> 
> (COS "Dobby's Reward" p. 244-45 UK edition)

Del :
Yep, I remembered that part yesterday before going to sleep. I 
secretly hoped nobody else would remember though :-) Ah well, in 
spite of all my efforts, it seems I'm still only human ;-p !

Del




From delwynmarch at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 18 09:51:38 2004
From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 09:51:38 -0000
Subject: Snape's reaction to Harry in Slytherin (was : Re: Changing Houses)
In-Reply-To: <c39tk4+a7k2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3brfa+5732@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93304

> > Del:
> >  Moreover, in CoS, Harry is very troubled by the fact that the 
> > Sorting Hat wanted to put him in Slytherin, it's his dark little 
> > secret, and we are told that he hasn't mentioned it to anyone. 
> > And as far as I can remember, he still hasn't.
> 
> JoAnna:
> 
> Actually, he told Dumbledore at the end of CoS; that's when 
> Dumbledore made his famous, "It's our choices rather than our 
> abilities that define who we are" speech and showed him that the 
> sword said Godric Gryffindor.

Del :
Argh, another one who remembered :-) !
And I'm still very troubled when I remember that speech and the fact 
that Harry chose to use the Cruciatus curse in OoP...

JoAnna :
> Apart from Dumbledore, however, I don't think anyone else knew.  
> (Unless that was one of his memories Snape saw during the 
> Occulmency lessons?... I don't have my copy of OotP handy so I 
> can't say for sure.)

Del :
I don't have my books either, but I'd love to know what would go on 
in Snape's head if/when he learned that Harry should have been in 
Slytherin according to the Sorting Hat. One of the reasons he's so 
mad at Harry is because Harry is in Gryffindor just like James and 
Sirius, so he sees the son as bound to follow in the father's 
footsteps. So how would he have reacted if Harry had been landed in 
Slytherin ? He would have been forced to review his judgment 
somehow, and I wonder what would have come out of it ?

Del




From delwynmarch at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 18 09:55:50 2004
From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 09:55:50 -0000
Subject: Petunia had no choice
In-Reply-To: <a05210601bc7e3302cbca@[66.48.151.174]>
Message-ID: <c3brn6+6nmt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93305

> > Del :
> >  why did he leave Harry on their doorstep in the middle
> > of the night ?

Freda : 
> Because he did not want to be seen by Muggles.

Del :
That doesn't convince me I'm afraid. 2 solutions to that problem 
come to my mind right away :

1. He could have come during the day dressed as a Muggle. I can't 
imagine that he wouldn't know how to dress like one. And if he 
really didn't know, he could have asked Arabella for help, or any of 
the many Muggle-borns wizards he knows.

2. He could have Apparated right in the middle of their living-room. 
They would have screamed, but then Petunia did anyway.

Del




From severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Mar 18 10:21:49 2004
From: severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk (severelysigune)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 10:21:49 -0000
Subject: "Snape's Job"
In-Reply-To: <c3bk2t+jidl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3bt7t+b9k3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93306

Carol wrote:
<< Maybe I'm naive, but I interpret this exchange as the first moment 
of real and honest communication between Snape and Harry (further 
evidenced by the first bits of praise Harry has ever received from 
Snape)--all ruined later when Harry looks into the Pensieve and Snape 
angrily ends the occlumency lessons. As for the "glint," it's 
perceived by Harry, and he (or we, the readers) could be reading 
malice into what is really just a gleam or glimmer or satisfaction 
(Potter understands something at last). My dictionary (or the one I 
happened to grab) lists as the primary definition of "glint": "a  
gleam or glimmer; sparkle; flash." No suggestion that the glint is 
associated with evil or ill will.>>
 
Geoff:
<< I had an interesting thought - possibly a blind alley. My first  
reaction on reading "glint" took me to:

"Something gold was glinting just above him. The Snitch! He tried to  
catch it but his arms were too heavy.
He blinked. It wasn't the Snitch at all. It was a pair of glasses. 
How strange.
He blinked again. The smiling face of Albus Dumbledore swam into view 
above him."

(PS "The Man with Two Faces" p.214 UK edition)

Gives the word a slightly warmer feel, think you not?>>

Sigune again:
Just to put this straight: when I posted this excerpt I never for a 
minute thought about the 'glint' as being a sign of malice. It struck 
me, though, because we all know this comparison of Snape's eyes with 
dark tunnels and their description as being without the friendly 
glimmer of Hagrid's. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought it was 
the first time we read of anything like a spark in Snape's eyes. This 
suggested to me a kind of enthousiasm or pleasure I have never seen 
associated with him before. It seemed /positive/, like Geoff points 
out, which is exactly what puzzled me.

I agree with other posters who remarked on the importance recognition 
has for Snape; but frankly I don't read much recognition in Harry's 
outburst 'in temper' - and Harry feels 'he had gone too far'. He 
expects anger and gets 'an almost satisfied expression' and glinting 
eyes instead! If what Harry said did come across as something 
positive, it certainly wasn't meant to be so in the first place.

The interpretations invited by Occlumency/Legilimency I find 
positively hair-raising. I mean, Snape could indeed be playing with 
Lord Thingy's expectations/assumptions via Harry. Does he want Thingy 
to think Harry trusts him? Does he sort of stick his tongue out at 
Thingy by telling Harry he spies? In any case it seems to me that, 
moment of confidence or not, Harry already is a liability to Snape's 
cover. He has seen him in the Order Headquarters after all; so 
whether or not Snape is admitting to spying in Chapter 26 does not 
seem to make much of a difference.

Coming to think of it, by refusing to further teach Harry Occlumency, 
is Snape not jeopardising his own safety? Unless, indeed, he is doing 
other things than spying. Maybe he is researching an anti-potion to 
the one that resurrected Lord Thingy... :) (I am one of those who 
like to believe the Resurrection Recipe was Snape's work to begin 
with, though of course there is no canon support at all.)

Heh - Snape is so delightfully open to interpretation that I am 
starting to hope JKR will never fully unravel all the mystery, so 
that we will have maneuvering space forever :).

Yours severely,

Sigune




From severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Mar 18 10:22:32 2004
From: severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk (severelysigune)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 10:22:32 -0000
Subject: "Snape's Job"
In-Reply-To: <c3bk2t+jidl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3bt98+gq04@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93307

Carol wrote:
<< Maybe I'm naive, but I interpret this exchange as the first moment 
of real and honest communication between Snape and Harry (further 
evidenced by the first bits of praise Harry has ever received from 
Snape)--all ruined later when Harry looks into the Pensieve and Snape 
angrily ends the occlumency lessons. As for the "glint," it's 
perceived by Harry, and he (or we, the readers) could be reading 
malice into what is really just a gleam or glimmer or satisfaction 
(Potter understands something at last). My dictionary (or the one I 
happened to grab) lists as the primary definition of "glint": "a  
gleam or glimmer; sparkle; flash." No suggestion that the glint is 
associated with evil or ill will.>>
 
Geoff:
<< I had an interesting thought - possibly a blind alley. My first  
reaction on reading "glint" took me to:

"Something gold was glinting just above him. The Snitch! He tried to  
catch it but his arms were too heavy.
He blinked. It wasn't the Snitch at all. It was a pair of glasses. 
How strange.
He blinked again. The smiling face of Albus Dumbledore swam into view 
above him."

(PS "The Man with Two Faces" p.214 UK edition)

Gives the word a slightly warmer feel, think you not?>>

Sigune again:
Just to put this straight: when I posted this excerpt I never for a 
minute thought about the 'glint' as being a sign of malice. It struck 
me, though, because we all know this comparison of Snape's eyes with 
dark tunnels and their description as being without the friendly 
glimmer of Hagrid's. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought it was 
the first time we read of anything like a spark in Snape's eyes. This 
suggested to me a kind of enthousiasm or pleasure I have never seen 
associated with him before. It seemed /positive/, like Geoff points 
out, which is exactly what puzzled me.

I agree with other posters who remarked on the importance recognition 
has for Snape; but frankly I don't read much recognition in Harry's 
outburst 'in temper' - and Harry feels 'he had gone too far'. He 
expects anger and gets 'an almost satisfied expression' and glinting 
eyes instead! If what Harry said did come across as something 
positive, it certainly wasn't meant to be so in the first place.

The interpretations invited by Occlumency/Legilimency I find 
positively hair-raising. I mean, Snape could indeed be playing with 
Lord Thingy's expectations/assumptions via Harry. Does he want Thingy 
to think Harry trusts him? Does he sort of stick his tongue out at 
Thingy by telling Harry he spies? In any case it seems to me that, 
moment of confidence or not, Harry already is a liability to Snape's 
cover. He has seen him in the Order Headquarters after all; so 
whether or not Snape is admitting to spying in Chapter 26 does not 
seem to make much of a difference.

Coming to think of it, by refusing to further teach Harry Occlumency, 
is Snape not jeopardising his own safety? Unless, indeed, he is doing 
other things than spying. Maybe he is researching an anti-potion to 
the one that resurrected Lord Thingy... :) (I am one of those who 
like to believe the Resurrection Recipe was Snape's work to begin 
with, though of course there is no canon support at all.)

Heh - Snape is so delightfully open to interpretation that I am 
starting to hope JKR will never fully unravel all the mystery, so 
that we will have maneuvering space forever :).

Yours severely,

Sigune




From severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Mar 18 10:36:47 2004
From: severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk (severelysigune)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 10:36:47 -0000
Subject: Snape the Gryffindor or Ravenclaw?!
In-Reply-To: <c384sn+a8su@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3bu3v+gg72@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93308

Lynnette wrote:
<< Is there actually any canon stating Snape was in Slytherin? I do 
not have my books handy. I know Sirius said that Snape hung out with 
an older group of Slytherins, but is there actually CANON stating 
Snape was IN Slytherin? I do not think one would have to have been in 
a particular house to be head of that house as a staff member. In know
JKR was asked about the house affiliation of MWPP, but what about 
Snape? >>


Sigune now:
I have been following the discussion with great interest - but I 
cannot help wondering why anyone would assume or want Snape NOT to be 
in Slytherin. Is it because he is in the Order?
I suppose my argument ties in with something I mentioned in another 
post a few days ago - that the Slytherins are such cardboard baddies 
that we assume anyone with the tiniest bit of 'good' in them cannot 
possibly be a Slytherin. 
I also don't agree with the assumption that an interest in the Dark 
Arts would necessarily place you in Slytherin, even if that may seem 
conflicting with my belief in Slytherin!Snape (- I don't think it 
conflicts, anyway). It seems to me that a powerhungry wizard is not 
necessarily a Dark Wizard, or that in order to gain power one will 
automatically have to turn to the Dark Arts. Look at Dumbledore: if 
he wanted to seize power, he could do so easily with his 'White' 
magic alone. So I think the reverse holds true also: an interest in 
the Dark Arts does not necessarily make one evil or Voldemortish. And 
it shouldn't be a Slytherin exclusivity either.
And if it is perfectly possible for a Gryffindor to turn to the Dark 
Lord, why could not a Slytherin turn to Dumbledore? Heck, Snape is 
the only complex Slytherin we know of [and here I add, hopefully, 'as 
yet'].

Yours severely,

Sigune




From severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Mar 18 10:38:16 2004
From: severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk (severelysigune)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 10:38:16 -0000
Subject: "Snape's Job"
In-Reply-To: <c3bt98+gq04@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3bu6o+4hvu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93309

Awww - sorry for the double post! Something went wrong while I was 
posting...

Sigune
*embarrassed blush*





From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Thu Mar 18 10:46:05 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 18 Mar 2004 11:46:05 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR borrowings [was:  How can LV win the war]
Message-ID: <20040318104605.5262830E4FF@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 93310

> Gadfly McLellyn:
> I had the feeling that JKR was purposely borrowing so that when her 
> schoolchildren readers get to the point of reading/learning 
> Shakespeare (Weird Sister/MacBeth), mythology, latin, or whatever 
> borrowed references they encounter then the kids will be more 
> comfortable with it because they will remember it in a fun context.  
> It will be a bit familiar and help them when they get to the next 
> level of education.  I thought she had a purpose in all that 
> borrowing. Wotcha think?  Gadfly McLellyn 

I am sure her borrowings - most of them at least - were conscious. She's having great fun with the names etc. She also shows some "uncounscious influences" - e.g. it has been several times (I guess on this list as well) discussed about C.S.Lewis' Narnia and HP World similarities, even though there are no direct quotations.
I think she does not employ the folklore/mythology/etc. elements with the educative goal in mind and thanks God, for two reasons. First it will be misleading, since she twists her mythologies fairly often. Second - books written with purpose in mind rarely makes a good reading, contrary to HP.
I guess she is just playing with themes and subjects and she does it gracefully. She is very "postmodernist" in this respect (please, save your tomatoes for beter target; I use the p* word in the meaning of "culture of quotations").
Her substitutions of real word's things with their magical counterparts are usually quite funny and that gives a lighter touch to the books. She has several briliant ideas, which were logically developed in the later books (e.g. moving portraits - which can be used to send messages). SO she gets good marks for continity, IMO, even though her magic is quite "mechanistic".

Cheers, Viridis





From tipgardner at netscape.net  Thu Mar 18 02:16:28 2004
From: tipgardner at netscape.net (tipgardner)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 02:16:28 -0000
Subject: Snape the Gryffindor or Ravenclaw?!
In-Reply-To: <c3atpa+p5e9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3b0ps+5e7q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93311

"justcarol67" wrote:
> Carol:
> As I mentioned in another post, we have canonical evidence that
> Bellatrix is about three years older than Sirius, who is roughly the
> same age as Snape. Sirius says to Harry (who is fifteen and about to
> enter his fifth year at Hogwarts): "I haven't seen her since I was
> your age, unless you count a glimpse of her coming to Azkaban" (OoP,
> Am. ed., 114). This remark seems to indicate that Bellatrix's seventh
> and last year corresponded with Sirius's and Severus's fourth year.
> (Either that or she left school early.)

Wouldn't that make Sirius a 5th year when she left school?  He says,
"since I was your age," to Harry and Harry is a 5th year.

"tipgardner" 




From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Thu Mar 18 11:03:14 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 11:03:14 -0000
Subject: Wormtail's Debt? (was: Re: And then there were none.)
In-Reply-To: <000601c40ca1$6009a7d0$bcde6251@kathryn>
Message-ID: <c3bvli+icoj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93312

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" <kcawte at n...> wrote:
>  Kneasy
> 
> > Go  further - suppose it has tried the same ploy before - with
> > the Marauders. James (Gryffindor), Sirius (Slytherin), Remus
> > (Ravenclaw), Peter (Hufflepuff).
> >
> K
> 
> Argh - this is one of those things that I can't understand and consequently
> *really* irritates me! *Why* oh why do people always put Peter in
> Hufflepuff - the main trait of Hufflepuff is supposed to be *loyalty* - this
> is not exactly the first personality trait which springs to mind when
> thinking about Peter (or even the 500th trait to come to mind for that
> matter). For me Peter is much more about ambition, desire for
> recognition/power, to *be* someone, to be known for something other than
> being that kid who tagged along behind James and Sirius. 

Fair enough, I'm not about to  be dogmatic about it, which House best suits
each character is up for grabs and a matter of a posters personal choice - 
and as DD says - choices define us. 

What interests me more is the disparity within the two groups of friends
and the possible contradictions with the Gryffindor norm as stated by
the Hat. That's not to say that they should be cardboard cut-outs, some
variability is natural, but it's not unreasonable to expect that the members
of Houses would exhibit the House characteristics strongly enough to be
among the personality traits that would spring to mind if you were to 
describe each of them in say, three or four words. That seems to be the
critereon used by the Hat so far as I can see.

There seems to  be much more variation than among Draco's little group
for example, or than among the (admittedly few) Ravenclaws that we've met.
It's intruiging and something to ponder on in the dark watches of the night.

Kneasy






From oogems7 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 18 02:49:07 2004
From: oogems7 at yahoo.com (oogems7)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 02:49:07 -0000
Subject: Sirius was right, Dumbledore was wrong
In-Reply-To: <c3b1sf+98st@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3b2n3+jv78@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93313

Neri wrote:
> but most seem to think he just acts the hot-
> headed, irresponsible, childish and deluded ex-bully by nature.
> 
> But does he? 
> 
> The facts in OotP state plainly that Sirius was right all along, 
> while DD, as he admits in the end, was wrong. Sirius wanted to 
> tell Harry everything immediately when he came to Grimmauld Place. 
> The "responsible" Molly and Lupin had prevented him from doing so 
> according to DD's directions. 
> <snip>
> Finally, when Sirius found out that his orphan godson was in 
> danger, naturally he had to go and help him personally. Any decent 
> person would have done just that. It was hardly Sirius' fault that 
> he got killed in a battle against a larger force, while dueling with 
> a DE who had just taken down two aurors. Had Sirius stayed behind 
> and left only Lupin, Moody, Kingsley and Tonk to fight against ten 
> DEs, it is likely that more than one of them would have got killed, 
> and also Harry and/or Neville, before DD would have reached the scene.


I'm going to have to agree with some of that, and sadly, cause I 
hate taking this approach to things, take the middle road.  The good 
old truth lies somewhere in the middle.

He was a little hotheaded, and was rather irresponsible during the 
battle.  As only the dead are dumb enough to fight like he did, 
saying nothing for why he was there.  

Also, if he was so level-headed, he needed to better argue with 
Molly, and the order, or ignore their 'decision' about Harry all 
together and tell him something, like 'Big V know about the 
connection soon.'

Greg





From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Thu Mar 18 11:17:32 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 18 Mar 2004 12:17:32 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Imperius Curse: Pure Mechanics or Maintained Mindlink?
Message-ID: <20040318111732.EE17430E568@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 93314

I've snipped Neri's and Erin's discussion bout Imperius, since it's exhaustive and I couldn't neither add to it nor comment on it.

So just a general remark: I always had an impression that the "mechanistic" magic, with full incantation etc. is  - to some extent, mind you - beginners' job. After a while Wizard switches more and more from "stupid wand waving" (Snape) to mental control over what (s)he's  doing. The mental image of transfigured thing, for example, can be more and more complicated. Dumble was doing worldess and wandless magic from the very beginning. We've seen more of it in OotP (Dolohov's silent curse, for example). Also Occlumency, Legilimency and let's not forgot mysterious Obliviate!
Of course most of the Wizards use the wans all the time, possibly even when they could do without, after all why not do things easier way?

> Neri:
>  Even excluding the idea of the Imperius virus, it seems a prudent 
> precaution to devise a test that uncovers imperio'ed agents. Does 
> anybody have an idea?

I have a partial answer to it, which may indirectly support "mental link theory". I guess Imperius doesn't leave a residue on the person being hit. So after being released from it, there is no way to tell if the person was or wasn't influenced, save person's own word. Going with "in case of doubt, law should favour the accused" Lucius and the like were released. 

Now I mut say I have no idea why there is not a check for person who is under inflence. Unless Imperioing is as delicate work as Oblivating. You don't use lots of power, which leaves the victim glassy-eyed and wooden-voiced, as after Veritaserum. You use a tiny little bit, manipulating hidden desires and slowly bending the victims psyche. And only after release the (real!) victim is in shock: how could I do such things?

Which, accidentally was  the reaction of many persons who under the influence of mob psychology sommited different attrocities.

Last but not least, the most scary, IMHO, line from OotP, which is a great hint/warning about the things to come in next books (an also commentary on the things which happend already).
Beginning of "The Second War begins" chapter:

"According to Madam Pomfrey, thoughts could leav eeper scarring than almost anything else..."

Taking into account the role of the most important scar in the books and its cause, I'd say this sentence is important.

Cheers, Viridis
P.S. Apologies if the quote has been already discussed to death.






From humantupperware1 at yahoo.com.au  Thu Mar 18 05:55:09 2004
From: humantupperware1 at yahoo.com.au (humantupperware1)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 05:55:09 -0000
Subject: What's in it for Petunia?
In-Reply-To: <c37368+d2nu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3bdjt+avd2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93315


Sean wrote:
> <snip>
> Obviously she knows more than she's saying. There is nothing
> explicit about her being forced by the pact to act. She's in 
> more danger with Harry around than not - Dudley may well be a 
> Squib, as some have suggested, but that hardly gives her a 
> motive to protect Harry.
>  
> What did Dumbledore REALLY threaten her with?

Max:
<snip> 
> The theory which makes sense to me is that Dumbledore's blood charm
> protects Petunia and Dudley as well as Harry (I'm not sure how this
> might extend to Uncle Vernon).  They all share the same blood line,
> after all.  So I don't see why the protection can't extend to all 
> of them.
> 
> So, seen within this context, Petunia is definitely safer *with* 
> Harry than without.


I have small and probably ridiculous idea on this one, but I'm still 
holding out that Petunia may be a witch......I know it doesn't seem 
to make sense at first, but is it actually specifically said 
anywhere that she isn't? All I have come up with is that she is 
insistent to ignore the WW and everything in it, but I'm guessing 
that she may actually be a closet witch, trying to live a normal 
life.

Maybe? Am I dreaming?

"humantupperware1" 




From jenjar2001 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 18 06:30:20 2004
From: jenjar2001 at yahoo.com (jenjar2001)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 06:30:20 -0000
Subject: Sirius was right, Dumbledore was wrong
In-Reply-To: <c3b1sf+98st@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3bfls+b8k3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93316

Neri wrote:
> > The facts in OotP state plainly that Sirius was right all along, 
> while DD, as he admits in the end, was wrong. > SNIP> 
> 
> In conclusion: with the possible exception of Hermione, Sirius was 
> the most far-seeing, levelheaded and responsible person in OotP. 
This is plain canon.
> 


Jenjar:

I agree, mostly.  I was very dissapointed with Sirius when he taunted 
Harry about not taking risks and said that Harry must not really be 
like his father, the risk would have been the fun of it for James 
(I'm paraphrasing from memory).  I felt this more than anything was a 
very out of character moment for Sirius.  As right on as Sirius was 
about everything you listed Neri, I don't think he was at the top of 
his game and I wonder if his angry and reckless attitude in OoP made 
it harder for people to consider his thoughts and recommendations as 
valid as they truly were?  I think the other members of the order 
just blew him off as angry and trapped or something.  But I think 
Sirius at his best could have been more even-tempered and persuasive 
with the rest of the order.  And oh, if they had only listened to 
him...





From belijako at online.no  Thu Mar 18 11:25:37 2004
From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 11:25:37 -0000
Subject: Snape's reaction to Harry in Slytherin (was : Re: Changing Houses)
In-Reply-To: <c3brfa+5732@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3c0vh+f2p9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93317

Del wrote:

I don't have my books either, but I'd love to know what would go on 
in Snape's head if/when he learned that Harry should have been in 
Slytherin according to the Sorting Hat.

Berit replies:

Sadly I don't have my books with me at the time, but I'm almost sure 
Snape HAS learned that the Hat wanted to put Harry in Slytherin. In 
Harry's Occlumency lessons, the first time (?) Snape "legilimens" 
Harry (and if my memory is not playig me a trick), one of the 
memories racing through Harry's head when Snape "wathces" them, are 
the Sorting hat telling Harry he would have done well in Slytherin... 
Could anyone confirm this?

Snape's reaction to this information we don't know. His only comment 
is his answer to Harry's question whether he could see everything 
Harry experienced. Snape answers something along the lines 
of "flashes of it... Who did the dog belong to?" So we don't know his 
reaction to the Hat's words. But I'm quite sure he noticed! I think 
this little piece of information, along with him discovering Harry's 
childhood has not been a pampered one, he'll arrive at a better 
understanding of Harry (maybe even a glint of sympathy :-) in book 6 
and/or 7. I have a feeling Snape already has by the end of book 5. 
When he intercepts Harry in the act of hexing Malfoy and his gang in  
the Entrance Hall, he of course wants to take points off Gryffindor 
House, but he does it very coolly and not at all excessively angry or 
sadistically (even though Harry answers him back in a very bold and 
disrespectful way!); just the necessary amount of "cool indifference" 
to convince the Slytherins he is still on their side... My two 
knuts :-)

Berit
http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html




From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 18 02:24:11 2004
From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (Ms Mo Me)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 18:24:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Snapes Job
In-Reply-To: <1079537709.7356.90989.m20@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040318022411.3241.qmail@web13508.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93318

Sigune wrote:
> I quote:
> <'That is just as well, Potter,' said Snape coldly,
> 'because you are neither special nor important, and 
> it is not up to you to find out what the Dark lord 
> is saying to his Death Eaters.'
> 'No - that's your job, isn't it?' Harry shot at him.
> He had not meant to say it; it had burst out of him
> in temper. For a long moment they stared at each other, 
> Harry convinced he had gone too far. But there was a 
> curious, almost satisfied expression on Snape's face 
> when he answered.
> 'Yes, Potter,' he said, his eyes glinting. 'That is
> my job. Now, if you are ready, we will start again.'>
> 
> What on earth is Snape so (almost) satisfied about?
> Snape being Snape, I suddenly started to wonder if he 
> is pleased that Harry should think he is spying whereas 
> in fact he isn't (?!) - but that does not seem to make 
> much sense to me. And I find his suddenly glinting eyes 
> quite alarming. Any theories? Please?



I thought the 'satisfied expression' to mean he knew
he pissed off HP, and he was, in a way, referring to
Snape as someone who could do more than him.  HP hates
him, but was aknowledging that Snape SHOULD be doing
more work than him.
Now, HP said it sort of defiantly, as if to say 'you
aren't doing your job correctly.'  But HP really
doesn't know ANYTHING about what Snape was doing.  So,
it was sort of like Snape had one up on him.  
That's why I think Snape had the 'satisfied
expression.' Snape knows he knows more about the order
than HP and that he got the better of him.  So far, HP
would never let Snape see when he got pissed off. 
This time he slipped.  Snape enjoyed seeing the "weak
side" of HP.

 But, anyway, it's just my thoughts on the matter.  I
really don't have any conclusive data to back anything
up.

~Mo






From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 18 11:58:53 2004
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 11:58:53 -0000
Subject: The Dursleys *are* guilty (was : On the other hand )
In-Reply-To: <c3auj1+mqi5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3c2tt+ussr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93319

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hickengruendler" 
<hickengruendler at y...> wrote:

<snip>
> Dumbledore is responsible for Harry's upbringing, because he is the 
one who gave Harry to the 
> Dursleys. It was his decision, and others have to take the 
> consequences, especially Harry. Dumbledore is the one who brought 
him in that situation (except Voldemort, of course), therefore he 
>should at least help him a bit.  
>


The thing is, the Dursleys don't love Harry. Their treatment of him 
is a clear expression of that. They don't abuse him in the physical 
sense (well, much) - they don't hit him or starve him. And he's *not* 
locked in the cupboard under the stairs - he sleeps there. Except for 
a few times, he is free to come and go, around the house, to school  
and outside. The deprivation he suffers from is emotional - they 
don't *love* him. And what could DD do about that? If they were 
physically hurting him, he could (and would, I'm sure) have made them 
stop. But you can't make a person love another person. I think DD 
knew the Dursleys attitude towards Harry. He described it perfectly 
in OoP - that Petunia accepted Harry unwillingly, furiously. But (as 
DD sees it) Harry's life depended on that acceptance, mean and 
ungracious as it was. And there was always the chance that they would 
reject Harry altogether. What if by meddling with them, DD would push 
the Dursleys to altogether refuse to accept Harry any longer? As a 
wise man, he should be very much aware of the inherent limits of 
power. 
I truly don't think that DD could have done anything to change the 
Dursleys attitude to Harry substantially.  I assume that DD didn't 
think that the Dursleys would seriously damage Harry, and in fact 
they haven't (not realistic, in my mind, but there it is). So, he put 
Harry in the only place where he would be safe, although at the price 
of an unhappy childhood. I don't envy him that decision. 


Naama




From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Thu Mar 18 12:01:30 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 12:01:30 -0000
Subject: Sirius was right, Dumbledore was wrong
In-Reply-To: <c3b1sf+98st@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3c32q+gf13@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93320

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" <nkafkafi at y...> wrote:
> 
> The facts in OotP state plainly that Sirius was right all along, 
> while DD, as he admits in the end, was wrong. Sirius wanted to tell 
> Harry everything immediately when he came to Grimmauld Place. 
> The "responsible" Molly and Lupin had prevented him from doing so 
> according to DD's directions. Had the order been following Sirius' 
> advice, not only Sirius' death would have prevented, but Harry would 
> have recognized the nature of his dreams much earlier, and could have 
> got Occlumency lessons in a less antagonistic atmosphere, with DD 
> still around to sort out the problems. Sirius, while far from being 
> perfect (and who is?) instinctively understood that responsibility 
> should go with knowledge, and that the truth is generally preferable, 
> a policy which DD preaches but doesn't practice much. Sirius also 
> knew immediately that it will never do to let Snape teach Harry, 
> while the great DD was above such petty considerations. Next, Sirius 
> was the only Order member who at least tried to ensure that Harry 
> would have a secure channel of communication to Grimmauld Place, 
> another basic precaution that the omniscient DD just neglected to 
> take. 

What we don't know is what Sirius wanted to tell Harry. Did Sirius know
about the Prophecy and what it said? Possibly he did, but the way DD
talks about it at the end of OoP it seems evident that it was yet another
of  DD's little secrets.

The talk among the younger set when Harry arrives in Grimmauld Place
was of a "secret weapon". What is it? Not the Prophecy, surely? Can that
be considered to be a weapon? More like intelligence or relevent 
information IMO. It seems possible that Harry himself is a weapon
against Voldy, but since Voldy is well aware of Harry's existence and has
made attempts to knock him off already, it shouldn't exactly be a total
surprise that Harry is going to fight back.

I agree that responsibility should be combined with knowledge, but what
responsibilities does Harry have? None, so far as the Order is concerned,
he is not a member and he's too young and too inexperienced. DD does 
expect him to toe the line though past experience should have warned 
him that this might be a bit of a problem. But there again does any 
member of the Order know just what DD is up to? Very doubtful. As
you point out, DD doesn't confide in anybody until he has to.

And when you consider that Harry spent a fair amount of OoP with Voldy
inside his head any 'secret'  he may have been told would be immediately
apparent to the opposition. Yes, he might have been more  cooperative
about the Occlumancy lessons, but Voldy was already in there. Could
Harry have mastered the technique quickly enough to deny Voldy access
to what he has been told days, weeks even, before he  starts learning
from Snape?

As for Sirius' death in the Ministry, doesn't anyone else find it odd that
in this melee with spells zipping everywhere there is only *one* death?
Almost seems as if they weren't  trying the rest of the time. Sirius died
for a reason, and it'll probably be a much more significant plot reason 
than Harry's emotional development.

In the webcast didn't JKR say that we're going to learn much more about
Sirius? That will please the Siriophiles (maybe) and will give  lots of scope
for those that feel cooler  towards  him to engage in a little character
assassination. What fun!

Kneasy






From entropymail at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 18 12:42:30 2004
From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 12:42:30 -0000
Subject: What's in it for Petunia?
In-Reply-To: <c3bdjt+avd2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3c5fm+hvjk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93321

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "humantupperware1"
<humantupperware1 at y...> wrote:
> 
> Sean wrote:
> > <snip>
> > Obviously she knows more than she's saying. There is nothing
> > explicit about her being forced by the pact to act. She's in 
> > more danger with Harry around than not - Dudley may well be a 
> > Squib, as some have suggested, but that hardly gives her a 
> > motive to protect Harry. What did Dumbledore REALLY threaten her with?
> 
> humantupperware1:
> I have small and probably ridiculous idea on this one, but I'm still 
> holding out that Petunia may be a witch......<snip>Maybe? Am I dreaming?

This has been discussed before, but my feeling is that Dumbledore is
protecting Dudley for Petunia.  The pieces all fit when looked at from
this perspective:

1. Dudley has "magical" ability in him. There is some evidence that
Dudley sensed the Dementors more than the average muggle may have.  In
addition, the Dursley's indulgence of Dudley's every whim may be an
attempt to keep Dudley's "accidental" magic from surfacing: if he
never becomes upset, the magic never has to slip out.

2. Petunia knows about Dudley's "specialness" and, besides loathing
the idea herself, also realizes that her husband would never accept a
wizard in the family, so...

3. She makes a deal with Dumbledore, who "squelches" Dudley's
abilities and promises that Hogwarts will not send a letter when
Dudley reaches eleven years old. In exchange, she promises to allow
Harry to live with her family to seal DD's protection charm.

4. She keeps her end of the bargain (in the most minimal way) until
the night Harry and Dudley are attacked by the dementors. While she is
considering throwing Harry out, Dumbledore's message arrives, and
reminds her that, if she casts Harry out, Dudley's magical abilities
will surface.

:: Entropy ::







From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 18 12:58:32 2004
From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 12:58:32 -0000
Subject: Petunia had no choice
In-Reply-To: <c3b1us+mrc8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3c6do+uamk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93322


> udder_pen_dragon:
> > I believe that Petunia was aware of her sister's situation in
> advance and she knew what would be happening in the event of James 
and
> Lilly's death and Harry living.
> 
and tipgardner wrote:
> Sirius would have taken in Harry had he not been implicated in 
Harry's
> parents' murders, not Petunia.

Actually, at the time those events took place, Sirius had not 
confronted Peter yet so there was no reason that he couldn't have 
taken Harry with him other than Dumbledore had ordered Hagrid to 
bring him to Privet Drive.   So, at least at that point it had 
already been decided (by Dumbledore) that Harry would have to live 
with his relatives...


Serena




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Thu Mar 18 14:21:42 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 14:21:42 -0000
Subject: Snape's reaction to Harry in Slytherin (was : Re: Changing Houses)
In-Reply-To: <c3brfa+5732@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3cb9m+2jua@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93323


> 
> JoAnna :
> > Apart from Dumbledore, however, I don't think anyone else knew.  
> > (Unless that was one of his memories Snape saw during the 
> > Occulmency lessons?... I don't have my copy of OotP handy so I 
> > can't say for sure.)
> 
> Del :
> I don't have my books either, but I'd love to know what would go 
on 
> in Snape's head if/when he learned that Harry should have been in 
> Slytherin according to the Sorting Hat. One of the reasons he's so 
> mad at Harry is because Harry is in Gryffindor just like James and 
> Sirius, so he sees the son as bound to follow in the father's 
> footsteps. So how would he have reacted if Harry had been landed 
in 
> Slytherin ? He would have been forced to review his judgment 
> somehow, and I wonder what would have come out of it ?
> 


Potioncat:
I think it was one of the memories that was seen, but I don't have 
my book to verify either. If so, we didn't get Snape's reaction.

The discussion DD and Harry had about the similarities and reasons 
for sorting into Slytherin bothered me.  It seemed that DD was 
agreeing that being in Slytherin was a bad thing.  Although to my 
mind many of the qualities Harry possessed that made him eligible 
for Slytherin were his own inate qualities, not ones that LV 
transferred to him. 

However, I cannot imagine how his being in Slytherin could have been 
good for him!  Nor can I imagine how Snape would have handled it!

Potioncat




From gbannister10 at aol.com  Thu Mar 18 14:35:02 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 14:35:02 -0000
Subject: Snape's reaction to Harry in Slytherin (was : Re: Changing Houses)
In-Reply-To: <c3c0vh+f2p9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3cc2m+suom@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93324

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Berit Jakobsen" 
<belijako at o...> wrote:

Berit:
> Sadly I don't have my books with me at the time, but I'm almost 
sure 
> Snape HAS learned that the Hat wanted to put Harry in Slytherin. In 
> Harry's Occlumency lessons, the first time (?) Snape "legilimens" 
> Harry (and if my memory is not playig me a trick), one of the 
> memories racing through Harry's head when Snape "wathces" them, are 
> the Sorting hat telling Harry he would have done well in 
Slytherin... 
> Could anyone confirm this?
> 

Geoff:
Oh yes, you're quite right. I almost missed it having just trawled 
through the Occlumency bits about three times.....

"He was five, watching Dudley riding a new red bicycle and his herat 
was bursting with jealousy... he was nine and Ripper the bulldog was 
chasing him up a tree and the Dursleys were laughing below on the 
lawn... he was sitting under the Sorting Hat and it was telling him 
he would do well in Slytherin...."

(OOTP "Occlumency" p.472 UK edition)




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Thu Mar 18 14:38:34 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 14:38:34 -0000
Subject: "Snape's Job"
In-Reply-To: <c3bt98+gq04@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3cc9a+b0uu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93325

>several posts snipped<
> 
> Sigune again:
> Just to put this straight: when I posted this excerpt I never for 
a 
> minute thought about the 'glint' as being a sign of malice. It 
struck 
> me, though, because we all know this comparison of Snape's eyes 
with 
> dark tunnels and their description as being without the friendly 
> glimmer of Hagrid's. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought it was 
> the first time we read of anything like a spark in Snape's eyes. 
This 
> suggested to me a kind of enthousiasm or pleasure I have never 
seen 
> associated with him before. It seemed /positive/, like Geoff 
points 
> out, which is exactly what puzzled me.
> 
> I agree with other posters who remarked on the importance 
recognition 
> has for Snape; but frankly I don't read much recognition in 
Harry's 
> outburst 'in temper' - and Harry feels 'he had gone too far'. He 
> expects anger and gets 'an almost satisfied expression' and 
glinting 
> eyes instead! If what Harry said did come across as something 
> positive, it certainly wasn't meant to be so in the first place.
> 
>snip<
> Coming to think of it, by refusing to further teach Harry 
Occlumency, 
> is Snape not jeopardising his own safety? Unless, indeed, he is 
doing 
> other things than spying. Maybe he is researching an anti-potion 
to 
> the one that resurrected Lord Thingy... :) (I am one of those who 
> like to believe the Resurrection Recipe was Snape's work to begin 
> with, though of course there is no canon support at all.)
> 
> Heh - Snape is so delightfully open to interpretation that I am 
> starting to hope JKR will never fully unravel all the mystery, so 
> that we will have maneuvering space forever :)



Potioncat:
I was very glad to see your original post on this.  I thouht I was 
the only one who wondered about this episode.  And I've tried to 
lurk throughout it to see what the general interpretation was.

I'm like you and Geoff, I don't see malice in the "glint" but I'm 
not sure Harry's comment was right on the button.  It seems like 
there's more to what Snape is doing, but he wants Harry (and 
others?) to think he is a spy. 

I also wondered if Snape had something to do with the potion LV used 
to get his body back.  I'm in the graveyard right now, and LV has 
just spoken, "....it is an old piece of Dark Magic, the potion that 
revived me tonight..." (GoF chapter 33 p656 US paperback.) So it 
doesn't sound like something Snape came up with, but let's hope he 
knows something about it.  

Potioncat




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Thu Mar 18 14:49:21 2004
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 14:49:21 -0000
Subject: Unlocking the Hidden Pattern (was Part 2)
In-Reply-To: <c3bin4+7arg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3ccth+l13r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93326

Sienna wrote:

> In both books Harry heads down into a hidden area.  In CoS it's
> the 
> Chamber of Secrets. In OoTP, this is mirrored when he and his 
> friends head into the Department of Mysteries.  The relationship 
> between `secrets' and `mysteries' is obvious.  Both
> are underground 
> areas.

This is a very interesting group of posts, that requires 
considerable study.

Given that JKR is a churchgoer and has hinted at Christian influence 
on the story (IIRC), you might like to look at Chapter 1 of the 
Biblical book of Genesis, where the creation story is told in a 
similar 1,2,3;1,2,3;7 pattern.

However, I feel you have to do a little more to make your case.  The 
problem is, that these stories abound in parallels, and you have to 
show that they are more frequent, or more thematically appropriate, 
or more structurally embedded, in the pairs of books you have 
nominated.

For example, Ron is injured in books 1, 3 and 5; Polyjuice is used 
in 2 and 4; and so on.

In the case I have quoted above, you touch on something that has 
long intrigued me: that in *all* five books, there is a 
subterraneous element to the climax.  I agree, in COS it is 
clearest, the chamber is deep underground.  In PS, they drop through 
the trapdoor, and it is hard to be sure how far they go down, but 
the symbolism is there, to my mind.  In POA, they get to the Shack 
via an underground passage.  In GOF, the least clear case, Harry is 
transported from a maze to a graveyard (a place of burial), and 
there is a symbolic burial element to the story when Harry's blood 
is tossed beneath the surface of the cauldron.  And, as you say, in 
OOP, the Department of Mysteries is at the very bottom of the 
Ministry, which is itself mostly underground, as Arthur is at pains 
to point out.  All five episodes take place at night.

I'm not sure whether this is just JKR adopting a common narrative 
device, where the hero undergoes symbolic death before emerging 
victorious, or if there is more to it.  Her critics attribute this 
sort of thing to a lack of imagination, of course.

I think that, in general, JKR's use of repetition and parallels is a 
very under-explored area, even in a group such as this, and 
surprisingly so, given its obvious predictive application.  There is 
an excellent essay on the Lexicon 
( http://www.hp-lexicon.org/essays/essay-dada-teachers.html ) which 
looks at the Defence Against the Dark Arts professors (and points up 
what I thought obvious, that it is always a brand new character), 
but I can think of little else.

David




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Mar 18 15:10:10 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 15:10:10 -0000
Subject: What's in it for Petunia?
In-Reply-To: <1079410992.27809.23.camel@ewey>
Message-ID: <c3ce4i+8vdt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93327

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Sean Dwyer 
<ewe2 at c...> wrote:
> I'm still bugged by Petunia's insistence that Harry stays. It 
doesn't make sense. Dumbledore as usual does NOT explain 
properly why she would - he doesn't REALLY say what his 'last' 
was, but I seriously doubt an explaination of a magic blood pact 
fits the picture. Vernon did what we would expect, Petunia should 
have even more reason to be rid of Harry.<<


Remember, Petunia is terrified of all wizards, not just evil ones. 
She may have reason. It would have been just like James and 
his gang to show up at Lily's house during the summer and play 
pranks.  She probably doesn't distinguish between the sort of 
stuff they did and Voldemort's terrorism which also affected the 
Muggle world.

I think Dumbledore promised that as long as she saw Harry fed, 
clothed, housed and schooled he would see that the wizarding 
world stayed out of  her life.  She knows if she chucks Harry out it 
will not be the end of wizard interference, far from it.

Pippin




From delwynmarch at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 18 15:11:55 2004
From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 15:11:55 -0000
Subject: What's in it for Petunia?
In-Reply-To: <c3c5fm+hvjk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3ce7r+h0r0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93328

Entropy wrote :
> 1. Dudley has "magical" ability in him. There is some evidence that
> Dudley sensed the Dementors more than the average muggle may 
> have.

Del :
I don't remember reading about any other Muggle meeting the 
Dementors, so we can't "measure" Dudley's reaction. Dudley didn't 
say he saw the Dementors, he didn't even realise he had met real 
beings. I don't think we can safely affirm that Dudley sensed the 
Dementors any more than any other Muggle boy would have. 

Entropy :
> In addition, the Dursley's indulgence of Dudley's every whim may 
> be an attempt to keep Dudley's "accidental" magic from surfacing: 
> if he never becomes upset, the magic never has to slip out.

Del :
Many parents over-indulge their kids for no other reason that they 
don't like to see them upset. I have a 16 month-old son, and I know 
that it is indeed easier to indulge him than to refuse things to 
him, and it is more gratifying to see him happy than angry.
Moreover, Dudley might never have suffered frustration at the hands 
of his parents, but I'm sure he got upset quite a few times around 
other people. His teachers come to my mind : they must have 
irritated him to no end more than once. And yet we are not told that 
any of them ever reported anything weird.

Entropy :
> 2. Petunia knows about Dudley's "specialness" and, besides loathing
> the idea herself, also realizes that her husband would never 
> accept a wizard in the family, so...

Del :
How does she know ? Dudley is a very little boy by the time Harry 
comes around, it's very unlikely he would have done enough 
accidental magic for her to suspect something.
However, she could just be afraid that her son would be 
a "spontaneous" wizard just like Lily was apparently.
Moreover, if Dudley's name was on the list of magical children, DD 
could have told her in The Letter, which would be one good reason 
for her screaming. But this leaves no time for any agreement to be 
made between Petunia and DD.

Entropy :
> 3. She makes a deal with Dumbledore, who "squelches" Dudley's
> abilities and promises that Hogwarts will not send a letter when
> Dudley reaches eleven years old. In exchange, she promises to allow
> Harry to live with her family to seal DD's protection charm.

Del :
We have never heard of the possibility of squelching magical 
abilities. And as I have read it expressed in this group more than 
once, it would be highly immoral and unfair for DD to do such a 
thing to Dudley.

Entropy :
> 4. She keeps her end of the bargain (in the most minimal way) until
> the night Harry and Dudley are attacked by the dementors. While 
> she is considering throwing Harry out, Dumbledore's message 
> arrives, and reminds her that, if she casts Harry out, Dudley's 
> magical abilities will surface.

Del :
That would imply that whatever charm was put on Dudley is 
reversible, or at least that Petunia believes it.
And it would be further abuse of Dudley : first they take a part of 
himself away without his consent and knowledge, and then they would 
give it back to him when he's come to hate it. Harry was horrified 
to discover that his father was a bully, but can you imagine the 
extent of Dudley's horror on discovering he's a wizard ?

Del





From quigonginger at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 18 15:16:55 2004
From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 15:16:55 -0000
Subject: All Things Green II
In-Reply-To: <c37fbo+hfet@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3ceh7+l5a4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93329

> It's the wearin' of the gr-- ... er ... the *finding* of the 
green.  

I'm game (and part Irish!)

All quotes are from the US edition

P 406  And as Lee paused to listen the song rose loud and clear from 
the sea of green and silver in the Slytherin section of the stands:
(I know the rules say complete sentance, but you're not going to make 
me type out that whole song, are you?)

P 600  The classroom floor had become springily mossy and trees were 
growing out of it; their leafy branches fanned across the ceiling and 
windows, so that the room was full of slanting shafts of soft, 
dappled, green light.

P 632  Dragons comprised entirely of green-and-gold sparks were 
soaring up and down the corridors, emitting loud fiery blasts and 
bangs as they went.

Ginger, forever defending the proud name of Hufflepuff




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Thu Mar 18 15:43:15 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 15:43:15 -0000
Subject: Snape the Gryffindor or Ravenclaw?!
In-Reply-To: <c3atpa+p5e9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3cg2j+cnep@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93330

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" 
<justcarol67 at y...> wrote:
> Potioncat:
> <snip>
> > Have you come across any canon that says Severus was hanging 
around 
> > older students? The portion I found doesn't say the others were 
> > older than he was. <snip>
> 
> Carol:
> I realize that Lucius Malfoy isn't mentioned as a member of this 
gang,
> but I see him (based on his relationship with the others in the MoM
> scene) as its natural leader while he was there. And yes, we have
> canonical evidence that he's 41 at the end of GoF whereas Snape is 
35
> or 36 in that book according to an interview, so he is five years
> older than Snape (assuming that Snape starts out 35 but turns 36 at
> some point during GoF).
> 
> As I mentioned in another post, we have canonical evidence that
> Bellatrix is about three years older than Sirius, who is roughly 
the
> same age as Snape. Sirius says to Harry (who is fifteen and about 
to
> enter his fifth year at Hogwarts): "I haven't seen her since I was
> your age, unless you count a glimpse of her coming to Azkaban" 
(OoP,
 >snip<
> Another indication that the "gang" members are older than Severus 
is
> that they all seem to have left before the Pensieve scene--either 
that
> or they're a bunch of cowards who don't come to their friend's 
defense
> when he's being hung upside down by a pair of Gryffindor berks. Had
> they been in the same year as Severus, they would have been taking 
the
> same DADA O.W.L. exam and would almost certainly have witnessed the
> scene, but he seems to have become a loner by that point.
> 


Potioncat:
Good point on Bellatrix's age!

For some reason your last paragarph made me think of Neville.  Ron 
and Harry are good friends.  We're told (I think in GoF) that Dean 
and Seamus are best friends.  Where does that leave Neville?  I 
remember, one episode where Neville is hit with a jinx by Malfoy and 
has to hop all the way to the common room for someone to un-hex 
him.  As I remember it, everyone in the common room laughs.  Where 
were  his friends?  Of course, one can guess or probably find it in 
canon that Malfoy did this in secret, not in front of a group of 
people.
Potioncat




From quigonginger at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 18 15:54:02 2004
From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 15:54:02 -0000
Subject: All Things Green II
In-Reply-To: <c37fbo+hfet@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3cgmq+5l4v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93331


> It's the wearin' of the gr-- ... er ... the *finding* of the 
green.  

Again, all are from the US edition

P 385  "Winky is still drinking lots, sir," he said sadly; his 
enormous round green eyes, large as tennis balls, downcast.

P 565  Rita had been at the point of withdrawing an acid-green quill 
from her bag.  (Acid-green still counts, doesn't it?)

P 647  She had thick, dark red hair that fell to her shoulders and 
startlingly green almond-shaped eyes - Harry's eyes.


Ginger, Hufflepuff Forever!




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Thu Mar 18 16:28:50 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 16:28:50 -0000
Subject: Snape the Gryffindor or Ravenclaw?!
In-Reply-To: <c3ajip+kvid@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3cio2+tunk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93332

>snipping<
Carol wrote:
> I also agree that no one but a Slytherin would be appointed Head of
> Slytherin (or a Gryffindor as Head of Gryffindor). Can you imagine
> Draco's attitude toward Snape if he suspected him of being a former
> Gryffindor, or Snape being able to maintain his connections with
> Lucius Malfoy if he were a former Gryffindor? His reference to
> Slytherin as "my own house" (can't remember where that comes from,
> sorry!) suggests that Slytherin has always been his house, as does 
his
> support for the Slytherin quidditch team (matched by McGonagall's
> loyalty to hers). 
> 
> One more point. Except for his unusual courage, Snape is the
> quintessential Slytherin: ambitious, cunning, and not altogether
> scrupulous. Multiple Slytherin traits would probably outweight 
single
> traits suggesting other houses (intelligence for Ravenclaw and 
courage
> for Gryffindor). The very fact that he was once a loyal DE suggests
> that he was in Slytherin. And his early interest in the Dark Arts
> would certainly have been best served and perpetuated by placement 
in
> Slytherin.


Potiocat:
OK, we both agree that Snape was in Slytherin.  In the sorting 
process multiple traits for one house would outweigh a few traits 
for another house. Or a strong trait for one house would outweigh a 
weaker trait for another.
 
I'll agree with your Slytherin traits, except for one: interst in 
Dark Arts. I think anyone from any of the houses could have an 
interest in the Dark Arts and persue them. (Ravenclaws for 
intellectual reasons, Gryffindors out of bravery, Hufflepuffs to 
help a friend.)  Hermione seems to have a knowledge of it herself, 
and I'm reasonably certain Polyjuice Potion came from a Dark Arts 
book.  The real trick is to learn enough about them, without giving 
into them and that would take strength.

As to the Head of House, yes, I think maybe a former house member 
might be a better choice for a house, but I'm not sure how often 
that option comes up. And I think McGonagall could head any house 
she needed to. I'm not sure how important house actually is once you 
get into the real wizarding world. But, I'm off topic, the whole 
reason that came up is because it was considered a clue to Snape's 
house as a student.

But I am sorry to say, that the wonderful line "Someone from my own 
house, perhaps?" is movie contamination. I double checked to make 
sure.  Snape just suggests Malfoy and Potter as a deuling pair in 
CoS.

Potioncat



 






From lizvega2 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 18 16:54:36 2004
From: lizvega2 at yahoo.com (lizvega2)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 16:54:36 -0000
Subject: Harry's shortest stay at Privet Drive
Message-ID: <c3ck8c+k478@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93333

I read in an interview that Jo had to make OOP longer than she 
originally anticpated because she didn't want the readers to feel 
cheated when certain outcomes take place in the last two books. 

It makes me wonder how crazy things are going to get! 

In the World Book Day chat Jo said that Harry would have his 
shortest stay at the Dursley's so far. Possibly because a) Harry is 
again attacked, as Jo also said that the muggles are starting to 
notice strange things happening- which I read as 'bad' things, ie., 
the same things that marked his rist to power in the 70's- 
disappearances, muggle torture, death, etc. 

Or b) The Dursley's do something to Harry that is resloved by 
another visit from the Order- and Harry's subsequent removal from 
the house. I wonder what they could do to him? Perhaps LV DOES 
attack, and Vernon just loses it this time. There's more to the 
blood-charm than we're aware of I think.   




From kiatrier at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 18 17:41:58 2004
From: kiatrier at yahoo.com (Kia)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 17:41:58 -0000
Subject: Uncovering the Hidden Pattern of the HP Books
Message-ID: <c3cn16+k00a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93334

Sienna:

>In GoF, the magical object in question is the Goblet of Fire. 
>Fake!Moody of course turns to goblet into a portkey, which takes 
>Harry to Voldemort and enables him to return to power. 
>Voldemort himself refers to the Stone and the fact that he now 
>sets his sights lower:

Actually Moody doesn't turn the Goblet of Fire into a portkey. He 
turns the Triwizard Cup into one.

Generally I am rather wary of such mathematic patterns in 
Rowling's works. Before OotP Harry got unpopular in every Book 
with an even number. By this logic, he should have been Mr. 
Popular in Book Five, but he wasn't. The problem with OotP is 
also that it doesn't fit any mystery plot patterns, because there is 
no mystery plot in OotP. There are a few coincidental repeating 
patterns in each book, but I don't think that Rowling borrowing 
from herself is a sign of an intentional pattern.

I am sure one could draw parallel from PS/SS to PoA -- like Harry 
discovering his family - a theme that is repeated in Book Five; a 
parallel from CoS to GoF - Harry making the Daily Prophet's front 
page and hating it or the house-elves or from PS/SS to OotP - the 
Centaurs, the evil corrupt ministry etc etc, so I am not convinced 
that a few repeating elements actually make a repeating pattern.


Kia




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Thu Mar 18 17:50:20 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 17:50:20 -0000
Subject: Only one death [was:Re: Sirius was right, Dumbledore was wrong]
In-Reply-To: <c3c32q+gf13@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3cngs+k9ae@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93335

Kneasy:
> As for Sirius' death in the Ministry, doesn't anyone else find it 
> odd that in this melee with spells zipping everywhere there is only 
> *one* death? Almost seems as if they weren't  trying the rest of 
> the time. Sirius died for a reason, and it'll probably be a much 
> more significant plot reason than Harry's emotional development.

Susan:
Yes, it is odd.  I know that the DEs were supposed to be careful of 
what they did, for fear of hitting Harry & causing the prophecy to be 
dropped & shattered, but still....  

I'm not sure I see it so much as if they weren't *trying*, though.  
[Are you (gasp!) suggesting a *plot*, Kneasy?? <g>]  I just took it 
like all those movies or TV shows where there's a whole lotta 
shootin' goin' on, but not much dyin'.  You know, where you're 
supposed to believe these bad guys, who presumably spend a lot of 
time practicing shooting, suddenly become bad shots and miss all the 
good guys, or only land a glancing blow.  

Confession time:  my one weekly TV fix is Alias.  Same thing there.  
The good guys manage to kill whoever they need to [except primo bad 
guy Sark, who they always seem to forget to shoot at], while the bad 
guys always manage to miss the good guys while firing 50 rounds at 
them.  I figured it was the same thing w/ JKR--she wanted to present 
us w/ an anxious situation & an exciting battle, but it's too early 
in the series for that climactic battle w/ massive loss of life [that 
I know so many of you are hankering for].

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Thu Mar 18 17:56:40 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 17:56:40 -0000
Subject: Snape's reaction to Harry in Slytherin (was : Re: Changing Houses)
In-Reply-To: <c3cc2m+suom@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3cnso+dp6t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93336

Berit:
> > Sadly I don't have my books with me at the time, but I'm almost 
> > sure Snape HAS learned that the Hat wanted to put Harry in 
> > Slytherin. In Harry's Occlumency lessons, the first time (?) 
> > Snape "legilimens" Harry (and if my memory is not playig me a 
> > trick), one of the memories racing through Harry's head when 
> > Snape "wathces" them, are the Sorting hat telling Harry he would 
> > have done well in Slytherin... 
> > Could anyone confirm this?
 
 
Geoff:
> Oh yes, you're quite right. I almost missed it having just trawled 
> through the Occlumency bits about three times.....
> 
> "He was five, watching Dudley riding a new red bicycle and his 
> herat was bursting with jealousy... he was nine and Ripper the 
> bulldog was chasing him up a tree and the Dursleys were laughing 
> below on the lawn... he was sitting under the Sorting Hat and it 
> was telling him he would do well in Slytherin...."
> 
> (OOTP "Occlumency" p.472 UK edition)


Susan:
I realize this isn't really the point of what you're discussing, but 
I continue to be slightly distressed that many people continue to say 
that the Sorting Hat **wanted** to put Harry in Slytherin.  It reads 
to me that the SH merely *presented* Harry w/ the information that he 
could do well there...just as it implied he might fit in well in 
Ravenclaw when it mentioned "not a bad mind"....  Why does that mean 
it "wanted" him in Slytherin?  I don't think it did, at all.  I think 
it "wanted" only for Harry to think hard, consider, and make his 
CHOICE.

Just my $.02, of course.

Siriusly Snapey Susan






From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Thu Mar 18 17:59:40 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 17:59:40 -0000
Subject: Unlocking the Hidden Pattern (was Part 2)
In-Reply-To: <c3ccth+l13r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3co2c+7o4n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93337

Sienna wrote:
> > In both books Harry heads down into a hidden area.  In CoS it's
> > the 
> > Chamber of Secrets. In OoTP, this is mirrored when he and his 
> > friends head into the Department of Mysteries.  The relationship 
> > between `secrets' and `mysteries' is obvious.  Both
> > are underground 
> > areas.

David replied:
> In the case I have quoted above, you touch on something that has 
> long intrigued me: that in *all* five books, there is a 
> subterraneous element to the climax.  I agree, in COS it is 
> clearest, the chamber is deep underground.  In PS, they drop 
through 
> the trapdoor, and it is hard to be sure how far they go down, but 
> the symbolism is there, to my mind.  In POA, they get to the Shack 
> via an underground passage.  In GOF, the least clear case, Harry is 
> transported from a maze to a graveyard (a place of burial), and 
> there is a symbolic burial element to the story when Harry's blood 
> is tossed beneath the surface of the cauldron.  And, as you say, in 
> OOP, the Department of Mysteries is at the very bottom of the 
> Ministry, which is itself mostly underground, as Arthur is at pains 
> to point out.  All five episodes take place at night.
> 
> I'm not sure whether this is just JKR adopting a common narrative 
> device, where the hero undergoes symbolic death before emerging 
> victorious, or if there is more to it.  Her critics attribute this 
> sort of thing to a lack of imagination, of course.
 
Susan:
And to give credit where credit is due, John Granger discusses this 
very "descent" theme extensively in his book The Hidden Key to Harry 
Potter.  For anyone intrigued by this, check it out.

Siriusly Snapey Susan






From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Thu Mar 18 18:04:10 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 18:04:10 -0000
Subject: Harry's shortest stay at Privet Drive
In-Reply-To: <c3ck8c+k478@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3coaq+nuhm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93338

LizVega wrote:
> In the World Book Day chat Jo said that Harry would have his 
> shortest stay at the Dursley's so far. Possibly because a) Harry is 
> again attacked, as Jo also said that the muggles are starting to 
> notice strange things happening- which I read as 'bad' things, ie., 
> the same things that marked his rist to power in the 70's- 
> disappearances, muggle torture, death, etc. 
> 
> Or b) The Dursley's do something to Harry that is resloved by 
> another visit from the Order- and Harry's subsequent removal from 
> the house. I wonder what they could do to him? Perhaps LV DOES 
> attack, and Vernon just loses it this time. There's more to the 
> blood-charm than we're aware of I think.


Susan:
I think there are any NUMBER of reasons why Harry's stay might be the 
shortest this time.  Not the least of which, imo, is Harry's need to 
get working on what he's going to do from here.  Does he need to go 
back to Occlumency lessons (and take them *seriously* this time), or 
will Voldy not try the possession thing again?  Is there something he 
needs to be working on for The Order?  DD may want to train him up in 
some things or have Harry work w/ the members of the DA, which is, 
after all, sort of a Junior Order.

Or she might pull something totally unexpected...which is certainly 
half the fun of it! ;-)

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Mar 18 18:10:37 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 18:10:37 -0000
Subject: Only one death [was:Re: Sirius was right, Dumbledore was wrong]
In-Reply-To: <c3cngs+k9ae@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3comt+7572@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93339

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" 
<susiequsie23 at s...> wrote:
> Kneasy:
> > As for Sirius' death in the Ministry, doesn't anyone else find it 
> > odd that in this melee with spells zipping everywhere there is 
only  *one* death? Almost seems as if they weren't  trying the 
rest of  the time. Sirius died for a reason, and it'll probably be a 
much  more significant plot reason than Harry's emotional 
development.
> 
> Susan:
> Yes, it is odd.  I know that the DEs were supposed to be careful 
of  what they did, for fear of hitting Harry & causing the prophecy 
to be  dropped & shattered, but still....  
> 
> I'm not sure I see it so much as if they weren't *trying*, though.  
> [Are you (gasp!) suggesting a *plot*, Kneasy?? <g>]  I just took 
it  like all those movies or TV shows where there's a whole lotta 
> shootin' goin' on, but not much dyin'.  You know, where you're 
> supposed to believe these bad guys, who presumably spend a 
lot of  time practicing shooting, suddenly become bad shots and 
miss all the  good guys, or only land a glancing blow.  <

According to Sirius in GoF, Moody won't  kill unless he has to. 
Dumbledore himself apparently won't use AK under any 
circumstances. And all the Death Eaters are aware of what has 
happened whenever somebody tried to AK Harry--that's why they 
were trying to get the Prophecy in the first place.

But to shift to literary considerations, Sirius's death was 
perilously undramatic to begin with. It would have lessened the 
impact still more if his were but one death among many. I also 
agree that JKR doesn't think out her battles with an eye to tactical 
realism. I've never understood how the Ministry wizards in GoF  
who apparate into a circle around Harry and fire stunners all 
manage to miss each other. 

Pippin





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Mar 18 18:29:05 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 18:29:05 -0000
Subject: Wormtail's Debt? (was: Re: And then there were none.)
In-Reply-To: <000601c40ca1$6009a7d0$bcde6251@kathryn>
Message-ID: <c3cpph+nmlt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93340

e:
>  Kneasy
> 
> > Go  further - suppose it has tried the same ploy before - with
> > the Marauders. James (Gryffindor), Sirius (Slytherin), Remus
> > (Ravenclaw), Peter (Hufflepuff).

K: 
> Argh - this is one of those things that I can't understand and 
consequently *really* irritates me! *Why* oh why do people 
always put Peter in Hufflepuff - the main trait of Hufflepuff is 
supposed to be *loyalty* - this is not exactly the first personality 
trait which springs to mind when thinking about Peter (or even 
the 500th trait to come to mind for that matter). <<

But the Marauders *failed* . They did not unite the Houses 
against Voldemort, but instead formed a tight little clique of their 
own.  IMO,  each of them failed in the very quality they were 
chosen for. Peter switched his loyalties from James to 
Voldemort,  Sirius misused his Slytherin-like cunning and 
disregard for rules, first in childish pranks and then in the 
misguided secret-keeper switch. Lupin applied  his 
Ravenclaw-ish thirst for knowledge to selfish ends: "I had led 
three fellow students into becoming Animagi illegally ."  James, 
we know, eventually developed the moral courage of a true 
Gryffindor, but it seems to have come too late.

Pippin




From lizvega2 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 18 18:58:19 2004
From: lizvega2 at yahoo.com (lizvega2)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 18:58:19 -0000
Subject: Harry's shortest stay at Privet Drive
In-Reply-To: <c3coaq+nuhm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3crgb+kmm9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93341

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" 
<susiequsie23 at s...> wrote:
> LizVega wrote:
> > In the World Book Day chat Jo said that Harry would have his 
> > shortest stay at the Dursley's so far. Possibly because a) Harry 
is 
> > again attacked, as Jo also said that the muggles are starting to 
> > notice strange things happening- which I read as 'bad' things, 
ie., 
> > the same things that marked his rist to power in the 70's- 
> > disappearances, muggle torture, death, etc. 
> > 
> > Or b) The Dursley's do something to Harry that is resloved by 
> > another visit from the Order- and Harry's subsequent removal 
from 
> > the house. I wonder what they could do to him? Perhaps LV DOES 
> > attack, and Vernon just loses it this time. There's more to the 
> > blood-charm than we're aware of I think.
> 
> 
> Susan:
> I think there are any NUMBER of reasons why Harry's stay might be 
the 
> shortest this time.  Not the least of which, imo, is Harry's need 
to 
> get working on what he's going to do from here.  Does he need to 
go 
> back to Occlumency lessons (and take them *seriously* this time), 
or 
> will Voldy not try the possession thing again?  Is there something 
he 
> needs to be working on for The Order?  DD may want to train him up 
in 
> some things or have Harry work w/ the members of the DA, which is, 
> after all, sort of a Junior Order.
> 
> Or she might pull something totally unexpected...which is 
certainly 
> half the fun of it! ;-)
> 
> Siriusly Snapey Susan

LizVega:

I think Jo also said, in response to a question about whether Harry 
would tell Neville about the prophesy, that he needs time to sort it 
out himself. While I agree that Harry has lots to do in order 
to 'make himself useful'- I think the beginning of the sixth book is 
a little too soon- Harry thinks he has to murder someone or be 
murdered himself- it's a lot to deal with- In fact, I think it more 
than likely that when we meet Harry in the beginning of the 6th book-
 he'll be even more sullen, and morose than when we left him in OOP, 
perhaps his removal from PD will prompt a change in attitude, but I 
have to wonder if DD won't want to give Harry a little time to 
adjust, even by removing him from Privet Drive, before any 'deep 
taining' is to be undertaken. And, of course, that may very well be 
what LV has in mind also- strike soon, before any more precautions 
around Harry can be taken. 




From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Thu Mar 18 20:13:38 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 20:13:38 -0000
Subject: Only one death [was:Re: Sirius was right, Dumbledore was wrong]
In-Reply-To: <c3cngs+k9ae@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3cvti+qnct@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93342

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" <susiequsie23 at s...> 
wrote:
> 
> I'm not sure I see it so much as if they weren't *trying*, though.  
> [Are you (gasp!) suggesting a *plot*, Kneasy?? <g>]  I just took it 
> like all those movies or TV shows where there's a whole lotta 
> shootin' goin' on, but not much dyin'.  You know, where you're 
> supposed to believe these bad guys, who presumably spend a lot of 
> time practicing shooting, suddenly become bad shots and miss all the 
> good guys, or only land a glancing blow.  
> 

A plot? Do  you really think so?

Of course as a person who  thinks well of everyone, such a thought 
would never have crossed my mind. Perish the thought.

But yes, the low (indeed almost non-existent) mortality rate doesn't
ring true. TV is a bit different, lots of complaints when blood gets
on the camera, but in a book all it needs is a sentence or two...
 "Leaving Lupin to dispose of the bodies, DD..." Imagination can fill 
in the rest. And these DEs are supposed to be veterans of the Voldy
War part 1. Lots of members of the Order scampering up and down
the steps, you'd expect 'em to nail a few. Most disappointing. The
question remaining is why Sirius? Not that I mind it being Sirius,
couldn't happen to a more deserving chap IMO, but it does look
very much as if it's a prelude to another revelation or two.

Susan
> Confession time:  my one weekly TV fix is Alias.  Same thing there.  
> The good guys manage to kill whoever they need to [except primo bad 
> guy Sark, who they always seem to forget to shoot at], while the bad 
> guys always manage to miss the good guys while firing 50 rounds at 
> them.  I figured it was the same thing w/ JKR--she wanted to present 
> us w/ an anxious situation & an exciting battle, but it's too early 
> in the series for that climactic battle w/ massive loss of life [that 
> I know so many of you are hankering for].
> 

Confession is good for the soul, or so they say. But I'm not sure it's
healthy to admit to such perversions in public. The other fans might get
upset. I did see the first three (or was it four?) episodes but failed to get
hooked. I'm not a TV addict, prefer to bury myself in a book and let my
imagination run riot. And when that happens... let's see, Bellatrix is the
love child of DD and Sirius' aunt and all the House Elves at Hogwarts
are escapees from her experiments in sensory overload administered by
the dextrous application of sharp implements. Her grasp on reality was
further weakened by marrying someone called Rodolfo with a strange
surname...hmm. Coming together,  I think.

Kneasy   




From peckham at cyberramp.net  Thu Mar 18 20:17:07 2004
From: peckham at cyberramp.net (luna_loco)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 20:17:07 -0000
Subject: All Things Green II
In-Reply-To: <c37fbo+hfet@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3d043+aqsm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93343

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Dicentra spectabilis"
<dicentra at x> wrote:
> It's the wearin' of the gr-- ... er ... the *finding* of the green.  
> 

Ch 6, The Noble and Most Ancient House of Black
Page 101 (US)   -- Double Entry
Half an hour later, Harry and Ron, who had dressed and breakfasted
quickly, entered the drawing room, a long, high-ceilinged room on the
first floor with olive-green walls covered in dirty tapestries.
The carpet exhaled little clouds of dust every time someone put their
foot on it and the long, moss-green velvet curtains were bzzing as
though swarming with invisible bees.


Ch 8, The Hearing
Page 138 (US)
Fudge was a portly man who often sported a lime-green bowler hat,
though today he had dispensed with it; he had dispensed too with the
indulgent smile he had once worn when he spoke to Harry.


Allen, Ravenclaw




From peckham at cyberramp.net  Thu Mar 18 20:18:49 2004
From: peckham at cyberramp.net (luna_loco)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 20:18:49 -0000
Subject: All Things Green II
In-Reply-To: <c37fbo+hfet@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3d079+vpl6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93344

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Dicentra spectabilis"
<dicentra at x> wrote:
> It's the wearin' of the gr-- ... er ... the *finding* of the green.  
> 
Ch 10, Luna Lovegood
Page 190 (US)
Upside down it had been hard to tell what the picture on the front
was, but Harry now realized it was a fairly bad cartoon of Cornelius
Fudge; Harry only recongized him because of the lime-green bowler hat.

Ch 36, The Only One He Ever Feared
Page 812 (US)
He waved his empty hand from behind the one-eared goblin and withdrew
it quickly as she sent another jet of green light flying at him.

Ch 36, The Only One He Ever Feared
Page 813 (US)
Voldemort raised his wand and sent another jet of green light at
Dumbledore, who turned and was gone in a whirling of his cloak; next
second he had reappeared behind Voldemort and waved his wand towards
the remnants of the fountain; the other statues sprang to life too.

Allen, Ravenclaw
Engaging in that most ancient and practiced of democratic arts,
ballot-box stuffing.




From lizvega2 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 18 20:53:05 2004
From: lizvega2 at yahoo.com (lizvega2)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 20:53:05 -0000
Subject: What's in it for Petunia?
In-Reply-To: <c3ce7r+h0r0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3d27h+c1q9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93345

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Doriane" <delwynmarch at y...> 
wrote:
> Entropy wrote :
> > 1. Dudley has "magical" ability in him. > 
> 
> 
> Entropy :
> > 2. Petunia knows about Dudley's "specialness" and, besides 
loathing
> > the idea herself, also realizes that her husband would never 
> > accept a wizard in the family, so...
> 
> Del :
> How does she know ? Dudley is a very little boy by the time Harry 
> comes around, it's very unlikely he would have done enough 
> accidental magic for her to suspect something.
> However, she could just be afraid that her son would be 
> a "spontaneous" wizard just like Lily was apparently.
> Moreover, if Dudley's name was on the list of magical children, DD 
> could have told her in The Letter, which would be one good reason 
> for her screaming. But this leaves no time for any agreement to be 
> made between Petunia and DD.
> 
> Entropy :
> > 3. She makes a deal with Dumbledore, who "squelches" Dudley's
> > abilities and promises that Hogwarts will not send a letter when
> > Dudley reaches eleven years old. In exchange, she promises to 
allow
> > Harry to live with her family to seal DD's protection charm.
> 
> Del :
> We have never heard of the possibility of squelching magical 
> abilities. And as I have read it expressed in this group more than 
> once, it would be highly immoral and unfair for DD to do such a 
> thing to Dudley.
> 
> Entropy :
> > 4. She keeps her end of the bargain (in the most minimal way) 
until
> > the night Harry and Dudley are attacked by the dementors. While 
> > she is considering throwing Harry out, Dumbledore's message 
> > arrives, and reminds her that, if she casts Harry out, Dudley's 
> > magical abilities will surface.
> 
> Del :
> That would imply that whatever charm was put on Dudley is 
> reversible, or at least that Petunia believes it.
> And it would be further abuse of Dudley : first they take a part 
of 
> himself away without his consent and knowledge, and then they 
would 
> give it back to him when he's come to hate it. Harry was horrified 
> to discover that his father was a bully, but can you imagine the 
> extent of Dudley's horror on discovering he's a wizard ?
> 
> Del

LizVega here, just had to say something:

As far as DD not doing 'such a highly unfair and immoral thing' as 
taking away the powers of a magical child, I think it is fair to 
remember what DD was dealing with at the time the charm was placed 
and Harry's parents were murdered. The night James and Lilly died 
must've been DD's worst nightmare- he saw first hand the prophesy 
being fulfilled- this boy, and this boy alone would save the WW- he 
did whatever he had to in order to keep HARRY safe. Is it so 
unreasonable that part of his 'plan' as he himself calls it in OOP- 
the Lost Prophesy chapter- was to ensure Harry's survival by taking 
the powers of a child whose parents would probably have disowned him 
when his magical abilities surfaced anyway? I remember DD commenting 
about all of the things he ignored to ensure Harry's happiness, and 
survival. I don't think that taking away Dudley's alleged powers was 
beyond his scope of 'necessary' precautions. 

LizVega~ who hopes she never has to take away someone's magic in 
order to save the world! : )




From CoyotesChild at charter.net  Thu Mar 18 17:38:33 2004
From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (Iggy McSnurd)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 11:38:33 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's shortest stay at Privet Drive
In-Reply-To: <c3ck8c+k478@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000001c40d0f$d929c3c0$6501a8c0@Einstein>

No: HPFGUIDX 93346

Iggy here:

You're missing options: 

c)  Dudley (or Petunia) manifests magic, causing the Order to have to
remove both of them from the house for their own protection.

d)  Someone realized that Dudley or Petunia have hidden magic, and
attacks one of them in some way.

Or 

e)  Something happens to Hermione, Luna, Neville, or one of the Weasleys
and Harry (possibly with others) has to leave and deal with it.


Just my two centaur's worth.

Iggy McSnurd


> -----Original Message-----
> From: lizvega2 [mailto:lizvega2 at yahoo.com]
> Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 10:55 AM
> To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's shortest stay at Privet Drive
> 


> In the World Book Day chat Jo said that Harry would have his
> shortest stay at the Dursley's so far. Possibly because a) Harry is
> again attacked, as Jo also said that the muggles are starting to
> notice strange things happening- which I read as 'bad' things, ie.,
> the same things that marked his rist to power in the 70's-
> disappearances, muggle torture, death, etc.
> 
> Or b) The Dursley's do something to Harry that is resloved by
> another visit from the Order- and Harry's subsequent removal from
> the house. I wonder what they could do to him? Perhaps LV DOES
> attack, and Vernon just loses it this time. There's more to the
> blood-charm than we're aware of I think.






From averyhaze at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 18 19:48:14 2004
From: averyhaze at hotmail.com (onnanokata)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 19:48:14 -0000
Subject: Sorting and Choice (was:Snape's reaction to Harry in Slytherin )
In-Reply-To: <c3cnso+dp6t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3cudu+gh89@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93347

> Berit:
>  Sadly I don't have my books with me at the time, but I'm almost 
>  sure Snape HAS learned that the Hat wanted to put Harry in 
>  Slytherin. In Harry's Occlumency lessons, the first time (?) 
>  Snape "legilimens" Harry (and if my memory is not playig me a 
>  trick), one of the memories racing through Harry's head when 
>  Snape "wathces" them, are the Sorting hat telling Harry he would 
>  have done well in Slytherin... 
>  Could anyone confirm this?
 
  
> Geoff:
> Oh yes, you're quite right. I almost missed it having just trawled 
> through the Occlumency bits about three times.....
> "He was five, watching Dudley riding a new red bicycle and his 
> herat was bursting with jealousy... he was nine and Ripper the 
> bulldog was chasing him up a tree and the Dursleys were laughing 
> below on the lawn... he was sitting under the Sorting Hat and it 
> was telling him he would do well in Slytherin...."
> (OOTP "Occlumency" p.472 UK edition)
 
 
> Susan:
> I realize this isn't really the point of what you're discussing, 
but 
> I continue to be slightly distressed that many people continue to 
say 
> that the Sorting Hat **wanted** to put Harry in Slytherin.  It 
reads 
> to me that the SH merely *presented* Harry w/ the information that 
he 
> could do well there...just as it implied he might fit in well in 
> Ravenclaw when it mentioned "not a bad mind"....  Why does that 
mean 
> it "wanted" him in Slytherin?  I don't think it did, at all.  I 
think 
> it "wanted" only for Harry to think hard, consider, and make his 
> CHOICE.

Dharma writes:

Susan,

Thank you for bring up this point.  I have been involved in more than 
on discussion with HP fans that have gone to this place.  Snape makes 
no comment about the Sorting Hats observations nor do we have any 
cannon that refers to Snape having any reaction to seeing that bit of 
Harry's memory.  He only comments on the dog. After learning that 
Harry is a Parslemouth in CoS, would Snape have been surprised to 
know that Slytherin could have been an option for Harry?  

But to get to directly to your point the Hat says:

"Though condemned I am to split you
Still I worry that it's wrong,
Though I must fulfill my duty
And must quarter every year
Still I wonder whether sorting
May not bring the end I fear"
(OotP p. 206, US edition)

This sounds to me more like fulfilling the obligation of its 
enchantment than any actual desire to place any student in any 
house.  The Hat clearly seems to have issues with dividing any of the 
children in any year.  

Often arguments about the Hat's interpretation of Harry strengths are 
pursued without reference to the fact that the Hat is enchanted to 
find out which students fit best where, not to exercise its own 
will.  If it went about placing students in houses they would 
actively choose not to be part of, would it really be doing it's 
job?  How good of a match could Harry have been to other students in 
Slytherin house, if he'd already decided he did not like them or what 
their house stood for?  He was prejudiced to the idea before putting 
the Hat on his head.

The fact that Harry chose not to be a Slytherin is ignored by many 
people as it relates to the Hat's enchantment.  The Hat is obligated 
to try to place students as they best meet the criteria of the 
founders.  Harry's personality had to be a good match for Godric's 
and Salazar's criteria, or neither would have been an option.  But, 
since Harry had not prejudice against Gryffindor house, is it not a 
better match the Slytherin?

For me these conversations become stilted to a Gryffindor vs. 
Slytherin perspective, when the issue for reader truly, in my 
opinion, is what-Harry-knows vs. what-is-the-realty.  Harry knows 
that the Sorting Hat places students in their houses.  But does he 
really know what the reality of being a member of any house other 
than Gryffindor truly is?






From jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net  Thu Mar 18 21:48:16 2004
From: jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net (Robert Jones)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 21:48:16 -0000
Subject: How did Moaning Myrtle Make the Water Splash?
Message-ID: <c3d5f0+iuqr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93348

Here is another trivial problem I don't understand: In COS, Moaning 
Myrtle made a splash in her restroom when HRH were there ? but how 
did she move the water?  I mean the ghosts at Hogwarts can walk 
through the walls and floors and cannot move anything.  When Nearly 
Headless Nick needed to make a commotion to help Harry, he had to 
get Peeves the Poltergeist to push over a cabinet ? Nick couldn't 
move anything.  Also in the Deathday party, the ghosts couldn't even 
smell or taste the food when they passed through the tables, let 
alone move them.

So how Moaning Myrtle, a ghost, make the water move?  (Or for that 
matter, how does she remain cozy in her favorite U-bend in the 
pipes?  Shouldn't she just pass through the sides of the pipe when 
she wasn't looking, as it were?)

Bobby




From pt4ever at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 18 20:00:40 2004
From: pt4ever at yahoo.com (JoAnna)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 20:00:40 -0000
Subject: What's in it for Petunia?
In-Reply-To: <c3bdjt+avd2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3cv58+j1hs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93349

humantupperware1:

<<I have small and probably ridiculous idea on this one, but I'm still 
holding out that Petunia may be a witch......I know it doesn't seem 
to make sense at first, but is it actually specifically said 
anywhere that she isn't? All I have come up with is that she is 
insistent to ignore the WW and everything in it, but I'm guessing 
that she may actually be a closet witch, trying to live a normal 
life.>>

JoAnna:

I seriously doubt it considering Petunia's reaction in PS/SS when 
Hagrid told Harry his parents were wizards.  "It was Lily this and 
Lily that... they were proud of having a witch in the family! I was 
the only one who saw her for what she was... a freak!"  (I don't 
have my book available at the moment, so I'm quoting from memory.) 

If Petunia secretly was a witch, I doubt she would have said 
someting like that about witches in general and Lily in particular.  
As a child, why would Petunia have a reason to hate the wizarding 
world?  Her parents didn't seem to have a prejudice against it, and 
as Petunia was older than Lily (I think?), she would have gotten a 
Hogwarts letter first.

(Is there canon that gives the order in which Petunia and Lily were 
born?  I always assumed that Petunia was older [and Lily was the 
beautiful, talented "favored" youngest child, the baby of the 
family, hence Petunia's jealousy] but I could be wrong.)





From JessaDrow at aol.com  Thu Mar 18 21:48:31 2004
From: JessaDrow at aol.com (JessaDrow at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 16:48:31 EST
Subject: Switching houses
Message-ID: <146.24a7f660.2d8b732f@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93350

I've heard rumors that in the next book someone would be switching houses. Is 
this an actual quote that can be found somewhere? Or just something floating 
around?

Thank you,

Faith


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nadinesaintamour at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 18 20:52:05 2004
From: nadinesaintamour at hotmail.com (catimini15)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 20:52:05 -0000
Subject: Uncovering the Hidden Pattern of the HP Books
In-Reply-To: <c3b7as+jto7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3d25l+3oqi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93351

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sienna291973" 
<jujupoet29 at h...> wrote:
> It occurred to me some time ago, that there seemed to be a hidden 
> pattern to the way the stories in the HP series were structured. 
> Something beyond the obvious I mean; some sort of cyclical 
> blueprint. At the time, I didn't have the opportunity to take this 
> intuition seriously and I forgot all about it. Then, while reading 
> some responses to my essay Harry, Hermione and the Sphinx at the 
> PortKey (http://talk.portkey.org/index.php?showtopic=6919), I got 
> hit by a big brainwave.
> 
> The books are repeating themselves. I believe that JKR has set up 
a 
> type of `hexagram' of books, with the first 6 mirroring each 
other. 
> Two triangles. Book 7 I think will stand completely alone.
> 
> So, for the sake of this theory ? in one triangle of the hexagram 
we 
> have the first trio of books ? The Philosopher's Stone, The 
Chamber 
> of Secrets and the Prisoner of Azkaban.
> 
> In the second triangle ? we have The Goblet of Fire, The Order of 
> the Phoenix and Book 6 (whatever it may be called).
> 
> In the posts that follow, I will attempt to demonstrate how these 
> books mirror each other and what implications this has for Book 6. 
> With thanks to the HP Lexicon for the wonderful outlines of each 
> book).
> 
> Part 1: The Philosopher's Stone and the Goblet of Fire
> 
> Mirrored Events

(Big snip)

> In PS/SS, Harry, along with Ron and Hermione, has to pass a series 
> of tests to save a magical object (the Philosopher's Stone). These 
> tasks (and there are five) are getting past fluffy, getting 
through 
> the devil's snare, catching the flying key, winning a chess game 
and 
> solving a riddle.
(Another important snip)

Now me (Nadine) :

There are 7 tasks at the end of PS/SS. You already mentionned 6 of 
them :
1) Getting past Fluffy - Hagrid's task
2) Devil's Snare - Sprout's
3) The flying keys - Flitwick's
4) The chess board - McGonnagall's
5) The (already knocked out by Quirrell's) Troll - Quirrels - This 
is the task you have forgotten about !
6) The potions puzzle - Snape's
7) And finaly, the Mirror of Erised - Dumbledore's

I like your parrallels theory nonetheless. There has to be a pattern 
somehow, or some sort of canevas (I hope this word has the same 
meaning in english) for JKR to work on. 

Have you read, I believe it was Iris' theory (I couldn't find the 
post reference) about the 7 tasks at the end of PS/SS mirroring the 
7 books ? Very interresting indeed...

Nadine (Catimimi15)






From belijako at online.no  Thu Mar 18 22:09:58 2004
From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 22:09:58 -0000
Subject: Wanting or presenting: Was: Snape's reaction to Harry in Slytherin
In-Reply-To: <c3cnso+dp6t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3d6nm+42fm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93352

Siriusly Snapey Susan wrote:
continue to be slightly distressed that many people continue to say 
that the Sorting Hat **wanted** to put Harry in Slytherin.  It reads 
to me that the SH merely *presented* Harry w/ the information that he 
could do well there...

Berit replies:

I'm inclined to agree with you. But, there is also Harry's own 
interpretation of the Hat's words to consider:

Quote:"'But I'm a Gryffindor,' Harry thought. 'The Sorting Hat 
wouldn't have put me in here if I had Slytherin blood...'
'Ah,' said a nasty little voice in his brain, 'But the Sorting hat 
*wanted* (italics in the book) to put you in Slytherin, don't you 
remember?'" (CoS p. 147 UK Ed)

Of course, in the reader's eyes, it's quite possible Harry is 
excaggerating/misinterpreting the Hat a little, but it is at least 
interesting that Harry actually believes the Hat *might* have decided 
on Slytherin as its choice for Harry had he not protested... I don't 
think we can overlook the impression Harry was left with after 
hearing the Hat's words.

And, then there's the even more interesting second meeting between 
Harry and the Sorting Hat:

Quote:"Surely it couldn't hurt if he [Harry] took the hat down and 
tried again? Just to see... just to make sure it had put him in the 
right house... 'You've been wondering whether I put you in the right 
house,' said the hat smartly. 'Yes, you were particularly difficult 
to place. But I stand by what I said before ? you would have done 
well in Slytherin.'" (CoS, p. 154-155 UK Ed)

To me, the whole plot of CoS is tufted on the gnawing suspicion that 
maybe, just maybe, Harry is not *only* what he seems to be, that 
there are more to the boy than meets the eye...

So yes, I'm inclined to believe the subtle hints of CoS points to the 
Hat not only suggesting Slytherin, but also *wanting* to put Harry 
there... just as much as it wanted to put him in Gryffindor! In its 
own words: Harry was particularly difficult to place! And it won't 
take back its words that he would have done well in Slytherin! Very 
odd, when what Harry *really* needed just then was a reassurance that 
he had been placed in the (only) right house, Gryffindor... He didn't 
get that reassurance, now did he? 

Berit
http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html




From mongo62aa at yahoo.ca  Fri Mar 19 00:23:05 2004
From: mongo62aa at yahoo.ca (mongo62aa)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 00:23:05 -0000
Subject: Uncovering the Hidden Pattern of the HP Books
In-Reply-To: <c3d25l+3oqi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3deh9+r8rs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93353

catimini15:

Have you read, I believe it was Iris' theory (I couldn't find the 
post reference) about the 7 tasks at the end of PS/SS mirroring the 
7 books ? Very interresting indeed...

Me (Bill:

Actually, that would be me.  Here is a repost of my most recent post 
on the subject:

Donna Immaculata:

Having written thus much, I've just come to the conclusion that OotP 
is about being trapped: Sirius is trapped in his house, Harry is 
trapped in his nightmares, Hogwarts is trapped in Umbridge's claws, 
and everyone is trapped in a more passive state than they could wish 
for. I bet, all throughout the book they all would welcome a real 
attack so they could finally be able to *do* something. And, indeed, 
as soon as Voldemort appears back on scene, the entire machinery of 
the side of Light can finally get in gear.

Me (Bill):

This paragraph reminds me of a comparison I had made about a year 
ago, between the seven 'challenges' that Harry & company faced at 
the end of SS/PS, and the seven books of the HP series.

So far, we have seven books, each of which matches up quite closely 
with one of the challenges. The seven challenges are, in order:

1) Fluffy
2) Devil's Snare
3) Keys
4) Chessboard
5) Troll
6) Potions
7) Mirror

PS/SS: The Troll. The Troll in the girl's bathroom cements the 
friendship of the Trio. Both Trolls were knocked out with a blow to 
the head.

CoS: This book matches the Keys. The challenge is to open a locked 
door. Only Harry has the ability to catch the key. A line from the 
scene: 'With an unpleasant jolt, he remembered the dragons said to 
be guarding vaults in the wizard's bank. If they met a dragon, a 
fully-grown dragon - Norbert had been bad enough...' A dragon is 
much like a basilisk.

PoA: The obvious comparison is with Fluffy. A large, menacing dog, 
which turns out not to be a true menace. The three heads could 
match the three survivors, Black, Lupin and Pettigrew. A line from 
the scene, after Hermione has asked what Ron can see: '"Nothing - 
just black - there's no way of climbing down..."' Ron sees black.

GoF: This book seems to follow the events surrounding the Mirror. 
Harry had been hoodwinked by some who was not who he thought he was, 
but an agent of Voldemort instead. Harry is trapped, alone, bound 
by ropes, against Voldemort and his loyal supporter. The Mirror had 
earlier shown him his parents, whose echoes appear during the big 
showdown in GoF, and who protect him in both scenes. Voldemort's 
loyal supporter tries to kill him, but Harry is rescued by 
Dumbledore. Quirrel had met Snape in the forest, observed by Harry, 
just as Crouch/Moody had met Crouch Sr. in the forest, observed by 
Harry. A line from the scene, when Harry is struggling for his 
life: '...he could only hear Quirrell's terrible shrieks and 
Voldemort's yells of 'KILL HIM! KILL HIM!' and other voices, maybe 
in Harry's own head, crying, 'Harry! Harry!'' Harry hears several 
voices apparently trying to help him, foreshadowing the echoes 
helping him in the graveyard.

OotP: This book is a close match to the challenge of the Devil's 
Snare. They are trapped by a clinging, strangling menace that 
flourishes in the dark. Donna's analysis of OotP, at the top of 
this post, fits very well.

This leaves two more challenges: the potions and the chessboard. I 
suspect that book seven will resemble Ron's hard-fought chess game, 
with opposing armies battling it out, and Harry's forces helped to 
victory at the end by a sacrifice. This leaves the Potions for book 
six. If this is correct, book six would involve trying to decide 
who to trust, and who is false. I would not be surprised if much of 
the story takes place inside the Ministry of Magic.

Bill




From jujupoet29 at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 19 00:24:13 2004
From: jujupoet29 at hotmail.com (sienna291973)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 00:24:13 -0000
Subject: Unlocking the Hidden Pattern (was Part 2)
In-Reply-To: <c3ccth+l13r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3dejd+lqcj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93354

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "davewitley" 
<dfrankiswork at n...> wrote:
Dave wrote:
 
> However, I feel you have to do a little more to make your case.  
The 
> problem is, that these stories abound in parallels, and you have 
to 
> show that they are more frequent, or more thematically 
appropriate, 
> or more structurally embedded, in the pairs of books you have 
> nominated.

Now me:
Agreed.  I think it does require more study.  Perhaps the only time 
we'll actually be able to fully study the pattern used in the books 
will be when all 7 are released.  In the meantime, I think it 
warrants a closer look.

David:
> In the case I have quoted above, you touch on something that has 
> long intrigued me: that in *all* five books, there is a 
> subterraneous element to the climax. 

Me again:
I think there is a lot of potential here for analysis of archetypal 
imagery.  Do you know of anyone who has written an essay on that 
theme?  I would be most interested.  Also, I think there may be more 
than one pattern running through the books.  I've tried to outline 
what I see as one, but I'm open to the theory that a series of them 
actually exist in a kind of overlapping fashion.

Dave:
> I think that, in general, JKR's use of repetition and parallels is 
a very under-explored area, even in a group such as this, and  
surprisingly so, given its obvious predictive application.  

Now me again:
I totally agree. I'd like to see more exploration of the larger 
structural aspects of the story myself.

Anyway... its all food for thought.  I'd love to think that this 
thread could lead to more discussions on this theme (even if it does 
ultimately prove my theory wrong ;))

Sienna
(Who doesn't mind being wrong, but sure enjoys a good discussion)





From nkafkafi at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 19 00:25:06 2004
From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 00:25:06 -0000
Subject: Only one death [was:Re: Sirius was right, Dumbledore was wrong]
In-Reply-To: <c3cngs+k9ae@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3del2+8nl0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93355

> Kneasy:
> > As for Sirius' death in the Ministry, doesn't anyone else find it 
> > odd that in this melee with spells zipping everywhere there is 
only 
> > *one* death? Almost seems as if they weren't  trying the rest of 
> > the time. Sirius died for a reason, and it'll probably be a much 
> > more significant plot reason than Harry's emotional development.
> 
> Susan:
> Yes, it is odd.  I know that the DEs were supposed to be careful of 
> what they did, for fear of hitting Harry & causing the prophecy to 
be 
> dropped & shattered, but still....  

Neri:
A good question. First, most of the spells zipping around were indeed 
stunners and other non-lethal stuff. Even Bella, who relishes killing 
and torturing, was shooting stunners most of the time, including that 
shot that nailed Sirius. Why? Bella said that the Unforgivables 
require emotional investment to be effective, and this might take 
some time and concentration. So it is not surprising that in the 
middle of a melee, when response time and rate of fire are critical, 
she'd rather use a conventional stunner. Now, why wasn't the DEs 
using more that slashing hex of Dolohov? It isn't an Unforgivable, 
but it had almost finished off Hermione. I think the reason is that 
nifty Protego spell, which acts not only as a shield, but also as a 
mirror. I can see why a DE would prefer to shoot something non-lethal 
when he knows that his spell might rebound at him. So as in many 
other things, the magical version of a shooting melee is also 
preferable to the muggle version.

A slightly different question is why were they missing so many times? 
As to that, I can testify from my own military experience (luckily 
not very extensive) that JKR is quite realistic. It is much easier to 
miss than hit your target even at the range, not to mention while you 
also try to avoid getting shot yourself. I've once read an article by 
some military theorist who calculated that the number of the expended 
bullets in modern wars is larger than the number of causalities by a 
factor of about a million, and I find this number quite believable.

I personally like JKR's description of the battle. I find it much 
more convincing than the choreographed kong-fu that Hollywood 
produces. I notice how none of the participants, either the bad or 
the good guys, manages any move that looks heroic, or even just well 
planned and executed. I think it was Pippin who once called it "sheer 
buffoonery". JKR doesn't want any of her readers to think even for a 
minute that battles are heroic. Even Neville's sacrifice is rendered 
comical by his broken nose. Actually, Harry the veteran explained 
this exact point to Ron and Hermione when they first suggested that 
he'll teach them DADA. I don't have any idea how JKR knows this, but 
she is right. There is indeed nothing heroic or coordinated in real 
battle. It is typically a mess in which nothing works the way it was 
supposed to, the participants would have look funny if it wasn't 
about life and death, and you are much more likely to stay alive 
because of the enemy's ineptitude than by your own aptitude. Magical 
battles are slightly less bloody than the real battles, but they are 
still a mess. 

Neri  





From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Fri Mar 19 00:30:11 2004
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 00:30:11 -0000
Subject: Peter the Hufflepuff manque (was: Wormtail's Debt? )
In-Reply-To: <000601c40ca1$6009a7d0$bcde6251@kathryn>
Message-ID: <c3deuj+ljge@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93356

Kneasy:
> 
> > Go  further - suppose it has tried the same ploy before - with
> > the Marauders. James (Gryffindor), Sirius (Slytherin), Remus
> > (Ravenclaw), Peter (Hufflepuff).

> K:
 
> Argh - this is one of those things that I can't understand and 
consequently
> *really* irritates me! *Why* oh why do people always put Peter in
> Hufflepuff - the main trait of Hufflepuff is supposed to be 
*loyalty* - this
> is not exactly the first personality trait which springs to mind 
when
> thinking about Peter (or even the 500th trait to come to mind for 
that
> matter).

:D

But... but... you are just listening to that silly Sorting Hat.  
What does it know?  Listen instead to that fount of wisdom, Hagrid:

"*Everybody* says Hufflepuff are a load of duffers".  It's 
undemocratic, and therefore wrong, to believe one hat against 
everybody.

MacGonagall said Peter wasn't very good at magic, so, obviously, 
he's Hufflepuff material.  You know, just like Neville.  Because she 
didn't know he could do the Animagus transformation, or cause an 
explosion that killed thirteen people, her clear vision wasn't 
obstructed by tedious facts.

Remember, first impressions are always right.  If that wasn't so, we 
wouldn't have prejudice, and without prejudice, we'd have hardly any 
HP series worth mentioning, would we?

That's why *real* fans always look down on Hufflepuffs, and assume 
that anyone who is a bit of a duffer, like Peter, must be one.

There, I'm glad I set *that* straight!

David




From jujupoet29 at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 19 00:31:33 2004
From: jujupoet29 at hotmail.com (sienna291973)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 00:31:33 -0000
Subject: Uncovering the Hidden Pattern of the HP Books
In-Reply-To: <c3cn16+k00a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3df15+7i3b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93357

Kia wrote:
> Actually Moody doesn't turn the Goblet of Fire into a portkey. He 
> turns the Triwizard Cup into one.

Now Sienna:
Thanks Kia... this was actually pointed out to me and I do 
apologise.  It was indeed the Triwizard cup. 

Nadine wrote:

>There are 7 tasks at the end of PS/SS

Thanks Nadine.  I actually listed only the ones that the kids had to 
get through (the Troll, being already taken care of).  As the Mirror 
of Erised was during the final confrontation with Vapour!Mort I 
didn't include that one either.  However, you're quite right, there 
were the 7 tasks and not the five.  :)

Sienna





From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Fri Mar 19 00:48:12 2004
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 00:48:12 -0000
Subject: Uncovering the Hidden Pattern of the HP Books
In-Reply-To: <c3deh9+r8rs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3dg0c+ito5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93358

Nadine:
> 
> Have you read, I believe it was Iris' theory (I couldn't find the 
> post reference) about the 7 tasks at the end of PS/SS mirroring 
the 
> 7 books ? Very interresting indeed...
 
Bill:
 
> Actually, that would be me.  Here is a repost of my most recent 
post 
> on the subject:

(snip)

LOL!  Nadine probably *was* thinking of Iris' post, "The Seven 
Ordeals":
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/46992

It's interesting to compare Bill's and Iris' posts, because though 
they both set the seven tasks against the seven books, Iris takes 
them in order, while Bill mixes them up.

This illustrates neatly the difficulties of this kind of study, and 
why I think it's not enough merely to demonstrate a connection to 
get wide acceptance of a theory.

David, thinking that the Book of Revelation contains a whole lot of 
sevens...




From kking0731 at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 19 01:25:32 2004
From: kking0731 at hotmail.com (Kathy King)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 20:25:32 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Unlocking the Hidden Pattern
Message-ID: <Sea2-F22Z6nuHWkDCFM00003018@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93359

Sienna,

Absolutely loved your analogies of the books mirroring each other! Of course 
it isnt absolute, nothing is with Jkrs works, but defiantly close. Jkrs 
twist within a twist is nothing short of brilliant. But I also feel that 
what you have written has quite a bit of merit and most defiantly needed to 
be complimented.
After reading what you had written so far, I started to doodle and made a 
hexagon figure connecting each book to its mirror like image. What I saw 
when I was done was a spider web, with book seven being in the middle. I 
thought how interesting that Jkr said that we would be seeing Rons not so 
favorite friend again.

Keep up the Great Work!




Kathy

_________________________________________________________________
All the action. All the drama. Get NCAA hoops coverage at MSN Sports by 
ESPN. http://msn.espn.go.com/index.html?partnersite=espn




From owlery2003 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 19 01:27:42 2004
From: owlery2003 at yahoo.com (Scott Santangelo)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 17:27:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's shortest stay at Privet Drive
In-Reply-To: <c3crgb+kmm9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040319012742.98994.qmail@web60110.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93360


LizVega wrote:
> > In the World Book Day chat Jo said that Harry would have his shortest stay at the Dursley's so far. Possibly because a) Harry is again attacked, as Jo also said that the muggles are starting to notice strange things happening- which I read as 'bad' things, ie., the same things that marked his rist to power in the 70's-  disappearances, muggle torture, death, etc. 
Or b) The Dursley's do something to Harry that is resolved by  another visit from the Order- and Harry's subsequent removal from the house. I wonder what they could do to him? Perhaps LV DOES attack, and Vernon just loses it this time. There's more to the blood-charm than we're aware of I think.
> 
> Siriusly Snapey Susan:
> I think there are any NUMBER of reasons why Harry's stay might be the shortest this time.  Not the least of which, imo, is Harry's need to get working on what he's going to do from here.  Does he need to go back to Occlumency lessons (and take them *seriously* this time), or will Voldy not try the possession thing again?  Is there something he needs to be working on for The Order?  DD may want to train him up in some things or have Harry work w/ the members of the DA, which is, after all, sort of a Junior Order. Or she might pull something totally unexpected...which is certainly half the fun of it! ;-) 

LizVega:

I think Jo also said, in response to a question about whether Harry would tell Neville about the prophesy, that he needs time to sort it out himself. While I agree that Harry has lots to do in order to 'make himself useful'- I think the beginning of the sixth book is a little too soon- Harry thinks he has to murder someone or be 
murdered himself- it's a lot to deal with- In fact, I think it more than likely that when we meet Harry in the beginning of the 6th book-he'll be even more sullen, and morose than when we left him in OOP, perhaps his removal from PD will prompt a change in attitude, but I 
have to wonder if DD won't want to give Harry a little time to adjust, even by removing him from Privet Drive, before any 'deep training' is to be undertaken. And, of course, that may very well be what LV has in mind also- strike soon, before any more precautions around Harry can be taken. 


Owlery2003:

I think the jig is up, and the Order (and of course DD) realize that Privet Drive just isn't safe anymore. It's not a "closed box" in which they can keep Harry, and of course, he's surrounded by innocent muggles who would be brutalized by Voldy and the DEs without second thoughts. So I suspect Harry will be promptly whisked away to . . . Hogwarts? Probably #12GP first, to take care of Sirius' things, and to give Harry the chance to properly mourn. He won't be left alone in the next book, and that will probably be more bothersome to him than he thinks. In OOTP he went stir crazy. Now he'll be lucky to go to the bathroom alone.


Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From constancevigilance at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 19 01:28:29 2004
From: constancevigilance at yahoo.com (Susan Miller)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 01:28:29 -0000
Subject: FILK: What Are the Simple Joys of Gryffindors?
Message-ID: <c3dibt+k6ct@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93361

It's been a long time coming, but here is the final installment in my 
project to enfilk all the Founders. First came Slytherin:

Salazar S. Slytherin 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/78599

Next was Hufflepuff:

Helga Hufflepuff 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/79615

Then Ravenclaw:

Ya Gotta Have Smarts! 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/80116


Here, finally, is the last of the Founding Four. For Gryffindor, we 
use Where Are the Simple Joys of Maidenhood from Camelot. In this 
midi, they spend a good half of it in introduction - the relevant 
part begins at about the half-way point.

http://www.hamienet.com/6895.mid

As before, I dedicate this to Haggridd.

THE SCENE:

The Founders are arguing about what makes the most desireable 
Hogwarts student. Godric Gryffindor has heard Salazar argue for 
cunning, Rowena for intelligence, Helga, well, Helga doesn't really 
KNOW what she wants, but likes to take part in any good argument 
anyway. Godric doesn't really see what the problem is. To him, it's a 
no-brainer:


What Are the Simple Joys of Gryffindors?

What are the simple joys of Gryffindors?
Who must you be to join my humble crew?
There is only this simple test
That Gryffindors must have addressed,
A few tiny things that you must do:

You must rush in where timid folk would not explore
Standing firm when the Slytherins quickly flee.
Let Hufflepuffs equivocate
And Ravenclaws negotiate
"Let's Go!" is what you're hearing from a Gryffindor.

Duel against Death without a sweat
Decapitate a troll or three.
With a basilisk, go tete-a-tete,
Then knock off for tea.
These are the simple joys of Gryffindors.

Up against the wall, your spirit really soars!
When you're outnumbered ten to one
Do you say "Now we're having fun!"
Oh, these are the little joys
Harmless, noncommittal joys,
These are the simple joys of Gryffindors.



Constance Vigilance




From nkafkafi at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 19 01:53:07 2004
From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 01:53:07 -0000
Subject: Imperius Curse: Pure Mechanics or Maintained Mindlink?
In-Reply-To: <c3blmb+4rlm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3djq3+esvi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93362

Erin:
Neri posed the chilling idea of the "Imperius virus", a devious plot
in which any Death Eater can simply go out into the street, Imperio a
hapless bystander wizard, and give him three simple commands.
<snip>
And this was scary. So scary that I (Erin) had to come up with some
quick objections just so I could go to sleep at night. ;-)

Neri:
Erin, I see now what you are saying, and I agree. This is indeed 
ambiguous and you can interpret the canon either as Imperius 
requiring a continuous mind control, or as verbal programming of an 
autonomous robot. If the first option makes you sleep better I have 
no objection 8-) I've already acknowledged that JKR is not likely to 
use my virus scenario whether it is possible or not.
 
<snip>
Erin:
Neri, who has tirelessly responded to every single response to this
thread (for which she has my sincere admiration) 

Neri:
Ahm, actually my chromosomes are XY. Not that I have any problems 
with XX persons, and it is one of the advantages of this forum that 
what we are writing is much more important than our chromosomes, age, 
nationality, etc.   

<snip>

Erin:
Noooo, it's true that Crouch Sr. wasn't at home, and probably most of
his attention was focused on his job while at work, BUT he had Winky
there to guard Crouch Jr. 24/7 for him. I don't think Winky would
have been nessacery if Crouch could have just given one command in
the morning and been confident of it sticking all day long while his
attention was elsewhere.

Neri:
Here there is one point we should be clear about: Winky was not 
reinforcing an Unforgivable curse. Such a possibility would be 
unthinkable for both a wizard and a house-elf.

Erin:
Also I'd like to say that I don't believe LV was Crouch Sr.'s
controller. Wormtail was. When Crouch escapes, Voldemort calls it
Wormtail's blunder. So even if the mindlink had required constant
close-up supervision, Wormtail could have been in Crouch's pocket in
rat form to do it.

Neri:
What a beautiful and chilling possibility! Do you realize that any 
person that Harry meets, including any of his close friends, could be 
imperio'd with Wormtail in his pocket? Do you sleep soundly with this 
thought in your mind?
8-)

Neri





From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 19 02:00:05 2004
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 02:00:05 -0000
Subject: How did Moaning Myrtle Make the Water Splash?
In-Reply-To: <c3d5f0+iuqr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3dk75+ns4p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93363

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Robert Jones"
<jones.r.h.j at w...> wrote:
> Here is another trivial problem I don't understand: In COS, Moaning 
> Myrtle made a splash in her restroom when HRH were there ? but how 
> did she move the water?  ...edited...
> 
> Bobby

bboy_mn:

To find the answer, I think we need to look beyond the book and look
at ghosts in general; I guess you could say ghosts in the real world.

In typical haunting, as in haunted houses, ghost do have some limited
ability to interact with the real/material world; rattling chains,
slamming doors, rocking chairs moving with no one in them, curtains
appearing to move when there is no wind, acts of telekinesis (moving
objects), etc....

So, ghosts can do things in the material world to make there presents
known. Usually, the more tramatic a ghost's death was and the more
tormented their afterlife, the more they cause physical telekinesis
and manifestations. 

So from this we can assume that Myrtle would be very limited in her
ability to pick up a bucket of water, but in times of emotional trama
and stress, she might be able to displace some water. 

So this is my conclusion. Since we have nothing in the books to
explain it, we must look else where for an answer. In the fable and
legend of ghosts in general, we see that they have limited abilities
to 'haunt' the real world and interact with is sufficiently to make
their presents known. 

Unless JKRowling gives it to us, I doubt that you will come up with a
better explanation than the one I have given you.

Of course, that's just one man's opinion.

bboy_mn
(Remember, when in doubt, make it up.)





From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 19 02:17:39 2004
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 02:17:39 -0000
Subject: Switching houses
In-Reply-To: <146.24a7f660.2d8b732f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <c3dl83+erjl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93364

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, JessaDrow at a... wrote:
> I've heard rumors that in the next book someone would be switching
> houses. Is this an actual quote that can be found somewhere? Or just 
> something floating around?
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Faith


bboy_mn:

People have brought this up in other groups and on other occassions,
and even I vaguely remember reading it. I know some people who are
currently searching for that quote and if they pass it on to me, I
will pass it on to you.

The next step is to ask yourself who will transfer to where?

A Slytherin to Gryffindor?

A Gryffindor to Slytherin?

And more importantly why? Why would some one switch houses?

I could imagine Harry being moved to Slytherin, but I can't really
come up with a reason why. I can, however, very clearly picture the
FIT that Harry would throw when told about the switch.

My best scenerio for a switch involves one or more of the legendary
and so-called 'Good Slytherins'. I believe that it will be in the
continuation of D.A. Club that the houses will be united, to the
extent that it is possible. 

That means, after Draco and Co. leave the DA Club, some Slytherins
will stay. One or more of those Slytherins may take so much heat and
harrassement from Draco & Co. that he/she will have no choice but to
switch houses. They will have to leave Slytherin house for their own
safety. 

Thus the mighty legend of the 'Good Slytherin' will be fulfilled. Most
of use think it will either be Theodore Nott or Blaise Zabini, one of
whom is assumed to be the Slytherin boy who could see the Thestrals.

Just a few thoughts.

bboy_mn







From JessaDrow at aol.com  Fri Mar 19 02:26:28 2004
From: JessaDrow at aol.com (JessaDrow at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 21:26:28 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Switching houses
Message-ID: <9f.45211819.2d8bb454@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93365

I've been thinking that perhaps Luna will switch from Ravenclaw where she's 
not wanted or appericated, over to Gryffindor. Yeah I know, she's a flake and 
stuff, but I think she'd fit in. 

Jessa *who'd really love to see a Luna and Neville pairing*

In a message dated 3/18/2004 9:19:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
bboy_mn at yahoo.com writes:
The next step is to ask yourself who will transfer to where?

A Slytherin to Gryffindor?

A Gryffindor to Slytherin?

And more importantly why? Why would some one switch houses?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ruminalus_ficus at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 18 18:47:58 2004
From: ruminalus_ficus at yahoo.com (ruminalus_ficus)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 18:47:58 -0000
Subject: Snape's reaction to Harry in Slytherin (was : Re: Changing Houses)
In-Reply-To: <c3cnso+dp6t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3cqsu+55mv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93366

Susan:

> I realize this isn't really the point of what you're discussing, 
but 
> I continue to be slightly distressed that many people continue to 
say 
> that the Sorting Hat **wanted** to put Harry in Slytherin.  It 
reads 
> to me that the SH merely *presented* Harry w/ the information that 
he 
> could do well there...just as it implied he might fit in well in 
> Ravenclaw when it mentioned "not a bad mind"....  Why does that 
mean 
> it "wanted" him in Slytherin?  I don't think it did, at all.  I 
think 
> it "wanted" only for Harry to think hard, consider, and make his 
> CHOICE.
> 
> Just my $.02, of course.


I think that's a very good point.  The Sorting Hat saw that Harry 
had qualities of all four houses, so it started mumbling things 
about his personality to see how Harry would react.  The hat was 
just using Harry's reaction to help classify him.  I don't really 
remember, but wasn't it after Harry asked not to be in Slytherin 
that the hat told him he could do well there?  If that is the case, 
then the hat probably never really considered putting him in 
Slytherin any more than he did the other three houses.  Harry only 
thought that the hat was about to put him there because it was 
already on his mind.  The Sorting Hat was just leading him on to 
gauge his personality.

-RF





From ekrbdg at msn.com  Thu Mar 18 23:39:49 2004
From: ekrbdg at msn.com (Kimberly)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 18:39:49 -0500
Subject: Harry's strongest weapon
Message-ID: <001e01c40d42$4f1b2c40$38e6f943@hppav>

No: HPFGUIDX 93367

I am re-reading the scene at the MOM and a subtle sentence jumped out at me.   

OoTP, US edition, Ch. 36, pg 816  (it's the part where Dumbledore and Voldemort are battling and Voldemort possesses Harry)
Just as this ends, we get this text...

"And as Harry's heart filled with emotion, the creature's coils loosened, the pain was gone,..."

This isn't the first time that Harry's emotion, not his accelerated Wizardry skills have saved his life.    The first time is when he is a baby.    It's not his emotion directly but the emotion/sacrifice of his Mother that saved him.    I wonder how relevant this is in the eventual outcome between Harry and Voldemort.    We see instances where his emotion seems to be enough, where Voldemort is so repulsed by it that he can't even touch Harry, let alone kill him.    

Kimberly

The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but
progress.

-- Joseph Joubert 





From philospeed at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 19 01:08:53 2004
From: philospeed at yahoo.com (philospeed)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 01:08:53 -0000
Subject: Is Dumbledore a vampire?
Message-ID: <c3dh75+tqev@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93368

Everyone seems to think that Snape is a vampire, but I don't think 
that's so.  If anyone at Hogwarts is a vampire, or has some vampire 
blood in them, I think it's Dumbledore.  I haven't been able to 
reasearch my theory completely yet, so I'm just kinda sounding this 
out:  

In SS/PS, we find out that Voldemort is hidden under Quirrel's 
turban.  The Weasley boys tell us that the turban is "stuffed full of 
garlic ... so that Quirrel was protected wherever he went".  
Voldemort is using Quirrel to get into Hogwarts, and he doesn't want 
any hassles from Dumbledore.  Vampire!Dumbledore would naturally 
avoid Quirrel's garlicky hat. 

We rarely see Dumbledore outside of the Hogwarts environment; he's 
usually in his office, or in the Great Hall at meals.  In OOtP, he 
shows up (infrequently) at Grimmauld Place, always after dark.  Can 
anyone cite a case of D'dore being out in daylight?  Just a thought.
  
philospeed




 

  





From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 19 01:28:17 2004
From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (Ms Mo Me)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 17:28:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Sirius was right, Dumbledore was wrong
In-Reply-To: <1079584259.84411.19086.m13@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040319012817.18831.qmail@web13507.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93369

Neri wrote:

"The facts in OotP state plainly that Sirius was right
all along, 
while DD, as he admits in the end, was wrong. Sirius
wanted to tell 
Harry everything immediately when he came to Grimmauld
Place. 
The "responsible" Molly and Lupin had prevented him
from doing so 
according to DD's directions. Had the order been
following Sirius' 
advice, not only Sirius' death would have prevented,
but Harry would 
have recognized the nature of his dreams much earlier,
and could have 
got Occlumency lessons in a less antagonistic
atmosphere, with DD 
still around to sort out the problems. Sirius, while
far from being 
perfect (and who is?) instinctively understood that
responsibility 
should go with knowledge, and that the truth is
generally preferable, 
a policy which DD preaches but doesn't practice much. 


In conclusion: with the possible exception of
Hermione, Sirius was 
the most far-seeing, levelheaded and responsible
person in OotP. This 
is plain canon."


Mo:

I totally agree with you.  But..... ;o)  

 Dumbledore could not have forseen what would happen. 
He even admits he was wrong in the end of OoP and
should have let HP know more sooner.  It would have
saved everyone a lot of grief.
I don't blame Dumbledore for this.  He was afraid if
HP knew too much he might do something rash.  Adults
have a tendency to think this way.
 You are right, though, DD should have known that by
keeping a 15 year old in the dark after all of the
things he had experienced, he was BOUND to try and go
to desperate measures at some point.

Think about it this way, though.  Life often doesn't
go as smoothly as we plan it.  There are a LOT of
trials that we go through.  A lot of MISTAKES we make.
 But, we learn from them, right?  And, for the most
part, things usually work out in the end....

I think the reason there were so many "mistakes" made
by the characters in OoP was because that is just
human nature.

If things went smoothly and no one ever made any
mistakes, then it wouldn't make for a very good HP
series that everyone enjoys so much.  I believe all of
this anxiety, loss, struggle and torment are going to
all make for a knockout sixth and seventh book, which
I can't wait to read.  

~Mo





From ekrbdg at msn.com  Fri Mar 19 01:32:11 2004
From: ekrbdg at msn.com (Kimberly)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 20:32:11 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius was right, Dumbledore was wrong
References: <c3c32q+gf13@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00bd01c40d52$0138de40$38e6f943@hppav>

No: HPFGUIDX 93370

(Kneasy's comments)
> The talk among the younger set when Harry arrives in Grimmauld Place
>was of a "secret weapon". What is it? Not the Prophecy, surely? Can that
>be considered to be a weapon? 


(Kimberly's comments)
If I remember correctly, the  younger set assumes it is a weapon but that is purely their naive assumption.    Whenever they confront any of the Order about it, they are given an indirect "ask no questions" answer.     It very well could have been the prophecy and since that was indeed what Voldemort was after, it would make sense that that was what was being guarded.  

Kimberly



 


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From ekrbdg at msn.com  Fri Mar 19 02:45:06 2004
From: ekrbdg at msn.com (Kimberly)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 21:45:06 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] How did Moaning Myrtle Make the Water Splash?
References: <c3d5f0+iuqr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <018701c40d5c$31687c60$38e6f943@hppav>

No: HPFGUIDX 93371

 (Bobby's comment)
  Here is another trivial problem I don't understand: In COS, Moaning 
  Myrtle made a splash in her restroom when HRH were there - but how 
  did she move the water?  I mean the ghosts at Hogwarts can walk 
  through the walls and floors and cannot move anything.  When Nearly 
  Headless Nick needed to make a commotion to help Harry, he had to 
  get Peeves the Poltergeist to push over a cabinet - Nick couldn't 
  move anything.  Also in the Deathday party, the ghosts couldn't even 
  smell or taste the food when they passed through the tables, let 
  alone move them.

  So how Moaning Myrtle, a ghost, make the water move?  (Or for that 
  matter, how does she remain cozy in her favorite U-bend in the 
  pipes?  Shouldn't she just pass through the sides of the pipe when 
  she wasn't looking, as it were?)

  
  (Kimberly's comments)
  Very good question, one that I myself have questioned.    My initial thought is that perhaps she is a Poltergeist like Peeves and can indeed manipulate matter for lack of a better phrase.    We also have the comment from Hermione that Myrtle likes to throw tantrums and flood the bathroom.   (CoS, US ed. pg. 133).      If she can't manipulate matter, how could she possible cause the bathroom to flood ?        

  Anyone have any thoughts on this ? 

  Kimberly





From ruminalus_ficus at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 18 22:13:58 2004
From: ruminalus_ficus at yahoo.com (ruminalus_ficus)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 22:13:58 -0000
Subject: Switching houses
In-Reply-To: <146.24a7f660.2d8b732f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <c3d6v6+tg0m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93372

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, JessaDrow at a... wrote:
> I've heard rumors that in the next book someone would be switching 
houses. Is 
> this an actual quote that can be found somewhere? Or just 
something floating 
> around?
> 


That's something we've been discussing.  There's a thread currently 
going called "Changing Houses" (#93198) on this very subject.

-RF





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 19 03:24:44 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 03:24:44 -0000
Subject: Snape the Gryffindor or Ravenclaw?!
In-Reply-To: <c3b0ps+5e7q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3dp5s+m496@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93373

Carol:
>>As I mentioned in another post, we have canonical evidence that
Bellatrix is about three years older than Sirius, who is roughly the
same age as Snape. Sirius says to Harry (who is fifteen and about to
enter his fifth year at Hogwarts): "I haven't seen her since I was
your age, unless you count a glimpse of her coming to Azkaban" (OoP,
Am. ed., 114). This remark seems to indicate that Bellatrix's seventh
and last year corresponded with Sirius's and Severus's fourth year.
(Either that or she left school early.)<<



"tipgardner": 
>Wouldn't that make Sirius a 5th year when she left school?  He says,
"since I was your age," to Harry and Harry is a 5th year.<
 


Harry is not quite a fifth-year yet when the conversation occurs. It's
still summer. I think Bellatrix left at the end of Sirius's fourth
year (her seventh) rather than the beginning of his fifth (which would
be her first year away from Hogwarts). Hope that clears up the confusion.

Carol




From jujupoet29 at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 19 03:27:43 2004
From: jujupoet29 at hotmail.com (sienna291973)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 03:27:43 -0000
Subject: Unlocking the Hidden Pattern
In-Reply-To: <Sea2-F22Z6nuHWkDCFM00003018@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <c3dpbf+dtol@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93374

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathy King" <kking0731 at h...> 
wrote:

>But I also feel that 
> what you have written has quite a bit of merit and most defiantly 
needed to be complimented.

Sienna:
Thanks Kathy!  :)

Kathy:
> After reading what you had written so far, I started to doodle and 
made a hexagon figure connecting each book to its mirror like image. 
What I saw when I was done was a spider web, with book seven being 
in the middle. I thought how interesting that Jkr said that we would 
be seeing Ron's not so favorite friend again.

Sienna:
Interesting... very interesting... I'll have to doodle it down 
myself.  Thanks for pointing that out.  I also find it interesting 
that the riddle of the Sphinx in GoF (just before Harry heads into 
the heart of the maze) is also related to spiders and that the last 
thing he encounters before he gets to the cup is a spider.

Sienna
Hmmm, what could it all mean... gee that JKR's a tricky minx...





From dk59us at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 19 04:29:43 2004
From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 04:29:43 -0000
Subject: FILK: Evil Wizard
Message-ID: <c3dsvn+k27a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93375

OK, I've washed the tomatoes off my shirt in the wake of "It's Not Me,
Tom!" and I'm ready to contribute another silly song.

This one's set to a possibly recognizable tune as well:

Evil Wizard (Pinball Wizard from Tommy by The Who)

Ever since I was a young boy
I've loved the darkest arts
>From Hogwarts down to Brighton
I must have cursed the lot
But I ain't seen nothing like him
since Grindelwald's heyday
That tall black-haired orphan
Sure casts a mean AK

He grew up hating muggles
'cause his dad was such a git,
Sent away his mom when
He found she was a witch
He bided time with patience
Made his father pay
That tall black-haired orphan
Sure casts a mean AK

He's an evil wizard
There has to be a twist
An evil wizard's
Got such a supple wrist (swish-and-flick)

How do you think he does it?
I don't know
What makes him so bad?

He thirsts for life eternal
Swears he will never die
Fear goes out before him
No one will say his name
Seeking domination
All wizardkind would tame
That tall black-haired orphan
Sure casts a mean AK

I thought I was
The Unforgiveables king
But I just handed
My Crucio crown to him

Up against the finest aurors
He can kill the best
His D.E.s lead him in
And he just does the rest
How strange to think an infant
could end his evil reign
That tall black-haired orphan
Sure casts a mean AK


Regards,

Eustace_Scrubb




From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Fri Mar 19 04:34:08 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 19 Mar 2004 05:34:08 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sorting and Choice (was:Snape's reaction to Harry in Slytherin )
Message-ID: <20040319043408.CCBC430E47C@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 93376


> Dharma writes:

> Often arguments about the Hat's interpretation of Harry strengths are 
> pursued without reference to the fact that the Hat is enchanted to 
> find out which students fit best where, not to exercise its own 
> will.  If it went about placing students in houses they would 
> actively choose not to be part of, would it really be doing it's 
> job?  How good of a match could Harry have been to other students in 
> Slytherin house, if he'd already decided he did not like them or what 
> their house stood for?  He was prejudiced to the idea before putting 
> the Hat on his head.
> 
> The fact that Harry chose not to be a Slytherin is ignored by many 
> people as it relates to the Hat's enchantment.  The Hat is obligated 
> to try to place students as they best meet the criteria of the 
> founders.  Harry's personality had to be a good match for Godric's 
> and Salazar's criteria, or neither would have been an option.  But, 
> since Harry had not prejudice against Gryffindor house, is it not a 
> better match the Slytherin?

I repost here my opinions from FA, since they sum up my thoughts on the subject.

I guess the Hat first examines the personality traits, balances them and chooses. Now, how many eleven years old have good idea of their own potential? Very few. So if they were chosing their Houses, they would most probably go after parents advice or gossip, etc. If we were the students, looking through the boards, ratio would be something like this: 
G 50% - R 30% - S 15% - H 5%.
This won't work well at all.
Actually if it was not for rather prejudiced Hagrid's remark, Harry wouldn't oppose his Slytherin appointment so vehemently.

So Hat reverses his (ok, I treat him as a male being; named Boris) idea if a kid has strong enough will - which is also not very common - to argue with the Voice of Authority Presented In Solemn and Stressfull Situation. 
E.g. I am pretty sure Neville didn't argue with Hat - so the Hat used his power to check his potential - definitely potential, not the abilities at the very time. 

Second possibility is that he does not reverse his choices as much as he uses kid's choice to topple the scales in very balanced situations. If (s)he fits well here or there, why not play long? It'll only makes the kid happier. 

It also protects the children of being pushed into wrong Houses by parents, eager for their prodigy to follow their steps. But, since most of the personality traits are learnt from the parents, it's not surprising we have "House dynasties".

Cheers, Viridis
________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!



From snapesmate at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 19 05:52:18 2004
From: snapesmate at hotmail.com (snapesmate)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 05:52:18 -0000
Subject: GoF DADA professor
Message-ID: <c3e1qi+5snl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93377

I cannot find the original post, but someone had mentioned that 
Goblet of Fire broke the pattern of Harry meeting the DADA teacher 
before the new year started.  I do not think it did.  Harry DID 
encounter fakeMadEye in the box at the Quidditch Tournament.  Crouch 
Jr was invisible and accompanied by Winky.  He even stole Harry's 
wand, remember?  So GoF did follow the pattern.  It just wasn't as 
obvious.

Lynnette, who thinks Snape IS a good guy, even if he is NOT a nice
guy!

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterverseofadults




From snapesmate at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 19 06:03:46 2004
From: snapesmate at hotmail.com (snapesmate)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 06:03:46 -0000
Subject: Snape in love! was Re: What's in it for Petunia?
In-Reply-To: <c3cv58+j1hs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3e2g2+kffj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93378

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "JoAnna" <pt4ever at y...> wrote:
><snip>
> JoAnna:
<snip>.  
> As a child, why would Petunia have a reason to hate the wizarding 
> world?  Her parents didn't seem to have a prejudice against it, and 
> as Petunia was older than Lily (I think?), she would have gotten a 
> Hogwarts letter first.
>

OK, here's a knee slapper for you...  
Older or younger, what if Petunia is the one JKR was referring to as 
(paraphrasing)"developing magical abilities later in life"? Then, at 
some point in book 7, Vernon has a massive coronary or something and 
dies.  She then meets Snape and SHE is the one he falls in love 
with!!  hhmm, Petunia and Snape in love?  Heaven help me and Severus 
forgive me, but I can actually picture them together!  (providing he 
has gotten over the "mudblood" attitude problem)

Lynnette, who thinks Snape IS a good guy, even if he is NOT a nice
guy!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterverseofadults




From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Fri Mar 19 06:04:13 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 06:04:13 -0000
Subject: Harry's shortest stay at Privet Drive
In-Reply-To: <c3crgb+kmm9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3e2gt+3anu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93379

> LizVega:
> 
> I think Jo also said, in response to a question about whether Harry 
> would tell Neville about the prophesy, that he needs time to sort 
it 
> out himself. While I agree that Harry has lots to do in order 
> to 'make himself useful'- I think the beginning of the sixth book 
is 
> a little too soon- Harry thinks he has to murder someone or be 
> murdered himself- it's a lot to deal with- In fact, I think it more 
> than likely that when we meet Harry in the beginning of the 6th 
book-
>  he'll be even more sullen, and morose than when we left him in 
OOP, 
> perhaps his removal from PD will prompt a change in attitude, but I 
> have to wonder if DD won't want to give Harry a little time to 
> adjust, even by removing him from Privet Drive, before any 'deep 
> taining' is to be undertaken. And, of course, that may very well be 
> what LV has in mind also- strike soon, before any more precautions 
> around Harry can be taken.

Sue Here:

I may be the only one on list who thinks this, but I believe Harry 
has already begun to master legilimency and occumency.  I imagine his 
stay at Privet Drive filled with the answering of many, many 
questions about Petunia's motivations and Dudley's demons.  Petunia 
can fire "Don't ask questions!" at him day and night but even if she 
doesn't want to speak the answer, it will come to the front of her 
thoughts and: whoop, there it is.  It could prove to be a very 
enlightening summer for Harry. 

As far as leaving Privet Dr., I think Harry will leave on his own 
accord either to protect the Dursleys or because the Order need him 
for something.

Sue 




From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Fri Mar 19 06:32:43 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 06:32:43 -0000
Subject: Snape in love! was Re: What's in it for Petunia?
In-Reply-To: <c3e2g2+kffj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3e46b+ss6c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93380

Lynnette Wrote:
> OK, here's a knee slapper for you...  
> Older or younger, what if Petunia is the one JKR was referring to 
as 
> (paraphrasing)"developing magical abilities later in life"? Then, 
at 
> some point in book 7, Vernon has a massive coronary or something 
and 
> dies.  She then meets Snape and SHE is the one he falls in love 
> with!!  hhmm, Petunia and Snape in love?  Heaven help me and 
Severus 
> forgive me, but I can actually picture them together!  (providing 
he 
> has gotten over the "mudblood" attitude problem)
> 

Sue here:
Why does she have to be a witch?  After all, he would have gotten 
over the "mudblood" problem as you say.  Imagine the fun they could 
have with Dudley: potions to control his weight, potions to control 
his temper, potions to control his snoring...and a little Crucio.

They do seem like a good match, I always like the "Petunia as Snape's 
jilted lover" posts from a while back anyway.

May all the Dursleys always be Muggles,
Sue




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 19 08:05:43 2004
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 08:05:43 -0000
Subject: Harry's shortest stay at Privet Drive - Birthday Party
In-Reply-To: <c3e2gt+3anu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3e9kn+c1pf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93381

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "suehpfan" <stanleys at s...> wrote:

> 
> Sue Here:
> 
> ...edited...
> 
> As far as leaving Privet Dr., I think Harry will leave on his own 
> accord either to protect the Dursleys or because the Order need him 
> for something.
> 
> Sue

bboy_mn:

I'm going to chime in here with one of my favorite predictions. I have
no evidence that this will occur but it is what I want to occur.

The Birthday Party Theory-
I think Harry, Ron, and Hermione will get an invitation to Neville's
Birthday party. Since Harry was born at the end of July, we can assume
Neville was born at least a few days before him.

Since Harry would have to go, or at least, would want to go into the
wizard world to buy Neville a present, he would arrange to meet Ron
and Hermione in Diagon Alley to do some shopping. Now, on the day of
the party, Harry would have to travel into the magic world to get to
Neville Grandmother's house, or at least use magical mean of travel to
get there. As long as he is already in the magical world and away from
Privet Drive, he will just stay there and spend the rest of the
holiday with Ron. That could mean either 12 Grimmauld Place or the
Burrow, or both.

So, why would I want such a thing?

Because I want Harry, Ron, and Hermione to set Grandma Longbottom
straight when she starts ragging on Neville, and complaining about how
inadequate he is. That really irritates me, so I think it's high time
someone put that woman in her place. I seriously doubt that Neville
talks to Gran very much about what goes on at school. Seems a
reasonable assumption since he doesn't talk much about himself with
anyone.

Time for a long overdue wake-up call for Gran, and this would create
the perfect situation for it to happen, and would create the perfect
situation for Gran to shoot her mouth off, and tell us more about
Neville and his family life. Might even be a good opportunity to meet
Uncle Algie.

I know I'm not alone in being a supporter of this Birthday Party idea,
I've read posts from other people saying the same thing. 

So, mark my words ...book SIX ...birthday party. You heard it here first.

bboy_mn






From delwynmarch at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 19 09:35:21 2004
From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:35:21 -0000
Subject: How did Moaning Myrtle Make the Water Splash?
In-Reply-To: <018701c40d5c$31687c60$38e6f943@hppav>
Message-ID: <c3eesp+8qqb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93382

> > (Bobby's comment)
> > Here is another trivial problem I don't understand: In COS, 
> > Moaning Myrtle made a splash in her restroom when HRH were 
> > there - but how did she move the water? 

(snip)

> > (Kimberly's comments)
> >  Very good question, one that I myself have questioned. My 
> > initial thought is that perhaps she is a Poltergeist like Peeves 
> > and can indeed manipulate matter for lack of a better phrase.
> > We also have the comment from Hermione that Myrtle likes to 
> > throw tantrums and flood the bathroom.   (CoS, US ed. pg. 
> > 133).  If she can't manipulate matter, how could she possible 
> > cause the bathroom to flood ?        

Del :
We know she's immune to matter being thrown at her, at least, 
because she gets completely upset when Ron says that throwing a book 
at her can't hurt her (you know, the whole "Let's play at throwing 
things at Myrtle : 10 points if you get it through her stomach" or 
something like that - I don't have my books, sorry).
Of course, that doesn't mean she can't *manipulate* matter. But 
since other ghosts can't, she'd have to be a special ghost. That 
could be : maybe being killed by a Basilisk turns you into a 
specific kind of ghost ?

And in the list of "How can Myrtle...", here's my favourite : how 
can Myrtle be dragged all the way to the lake when someone flushes 
her toilet ? The first time I read it, I found it a) yucky, b) 
hilarious, and c) impossible ("But... She's a ghost !")

Del





From delwynmarch at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 19 09:53:23 2004
From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:53:23 -0000
Subject: Harry's shortest stay at Privet Drive
In-Reply-To: <c3ck8c+k478@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3efuj+330s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93383

lizvega2 wrote:
> In the World Book Day chat Jo said that Harry would have his 
> shortest stay at the Dursley's so far.

Del :
One possibility is that DD or someone of the Order comes and takes 
him somewhere, to teach him (and Ron and Hermione) a very useful 
skill : how to Apparate. Think of the number of times in OoP where 
some kind of escort had to be given to Harry to go from some place 
to another. Think of what would have happened if Harry could simply 
have Apparated to Grimmauld Place and found Sirius safe there. Think 
of how things would have turned in the DoM if the kids could simply 
have Apparated away. I don't think DD would care about the Trio not 
being of age. They are obviously talented enough (the DA proved it) 
to master even such a difficult trick as Apparating, the War is on, 
and the kids need to be independent and mobile. If I were DD, I'd 
teach them how to Apparate, pronto !! And since this can't be done 
at Hogwarts, it has to be done during the coming summer holidays, 
and preferably not at the Dursleys ;o)


Del





From greatelderone at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 19 10:19:27 2004
From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 10:19:27 -0000
Subject: Why didn't  Lily have to die?
Message-ID: <c3ehff+lbt9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93384

Just out of curiosity, but why needn't Lily have died on the night 
when Voldemort attacks the Potter residence. Voldemort himself 
mentions it first in PS/SS and then later in POA we hear him tell 
Lily to stand aside. Seeing how he killed James, a pureblood though a 
traitor, why does a ruthless Dark Lord actually show an ounce of 
mercy to Lily who he considers a mudblood according to his ideology 
and who probably defied him thrice according to the terms of the 
prophecy. I mean he could just have systemically slaughtered the 
whole potter family. Why did he actually try and make an effort in 
having her stand aside? It's so not like him imo.




From quigonginger at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 19 10:42:08 2004
From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 10:42:08 -0000
Subject: All Things Green II
In-Reply-To: <c37fbo+hfet@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3eiq0+e291@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93385

> It's the wearin' of the gr-- ... er ... the *finding* of the 
green.  

C'mon Hufflepuffs, crack those books!  We're not afraid of toil, 
remember? ;)

All from the US editions:

P 402  As they passed the Slytherin table there was an upsurge of 
noise; Harry looked around and saw that nearly everyone there was 
wearing, in addition to the usual green-and-silver scarves and hats, 
silver badges in the shape of that seemed to be crowns.

P 414  Dolores Umbridge was standing in the doorway wrapped in a 
green tweed cloak that greatly enhanced her resemlance to a giant 
toad.

P 446  She was a few feet away from Harry, wearing her green hat and 
cloak again, her clipboard at the ready.


Ginger, joining Allen in stuffing the box (BTW, Allen, thanks for the 
competition!)




From quigonginger at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 19 10:48:19 2004
From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 10:48:19 -0000
Subject: All Things Green II
In-Reply-To: <c37fbo+hfet@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3ej5j+tc4c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93386


> It's the wearin' of the gr-- ... er ... the *finding* of the 
green.  

All entries US edition, but you probably figured that by now.

P 483  "Right," said Tonks, beckoning them forward to a window 
displaying nothing but a particularly ugly female dummy whose false 
eyelashes were hanging off and who was modeling a green nylon 
pintafore.

P 668  They exploded at once into emerald-green flames.

P 697  A man's naked torso seemed for an instant to be floating 
toward them throught the dappled green half-light.

Ginger, stuff, stuff, stuff for Hufflepuff





From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 19 03:06:44 2004
From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (Ms Mo Me)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 19:06:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: ordering dungbombs
In-Reply-To: <1079647216.10080.90438.m17@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040319030644.57441.qmail@web13503.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93387

This has always bugged me...

In Oop, HP goes off early on a Saturday morning to
mail a letter to Sirius.  This is the same morning,
when, at the owl post, he sees the horse fly out of
the forest.
Anyway, as he is going to the owlry, Mrs.Norris, the
cat, sees him and goes off to warn Filtch.  Then,
Flitch shows up and says he's been tipped off that
someone is ordering dungbombs.

Now, I don't think this is just a coincidental part of
the story since it is made rather prominant and left
open.  However, I have never been able to know what to
make of it.

My recent theory is that there is someone else in the
owlry besides Harry, Cho and Filch (possibly in an
invisibility cloak???) that Mrs. Norris saw. 

I don't really know.

Does anyone else have any theories as to what this may
mean, or it's significance to the plot?  





From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 19 03:11:24 2004
From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (fauntine_80)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 03:11:24 -0000
Subject: Is Dumbledore a vampire?
In-Reply-To: <c3dh75+tqev@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3docs+eve2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93388

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "philospeed" <philospeed at y...> 
wrote:

> 
> We rarely see Dumbledore outside of the Hogwarts environment; he's 
> usually in his office, or in the Great Hall at meals.  In OOtP, he 
> shows up (infrequently) at Grimmauld Place, always after dark.  Can 
> anyone cite a case of D'dore being out in daylight?  Just a thought.


Dumbledore regularly attends Quidditch games which are in full 
sunlight, and so does Snape.  However, as with Anne Rice's vampires, 
they can be in sunlight.

But, I highly doubt that DD is a vampire.  And, we later found out 
that Quirrel WASN'T hiding garlic in his turban.  He was hiding LV. 





From ellendvlmaas at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 19 04:22:31 2004
From: ellendvlmaas at yahoo.com (ellendvlmaas)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 04:22:31 -0000
Subject: Is Dumbledore a vampire?
In-Reply-To: <c3dh75+tqev@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3dsi7+vj96@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93389

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "philospeed" <philospeed at y...> 
wrote:
> Everyone seems to think that Snape is a vampire, but I don't think 
> that's so.  If anyone at Hogwarts is a vampire, or has some 
vampire 
> blood in them, I think it's Dumbledore.  I haven't been able to 
> reasearch my theory completely yet, so I'm just kinda sounding 
this 
> out:  

[snip]
> We rarely see Dumbledore outside of the Hogwarts environment; he's 
> usually in his office, or in the Great Hall at meals.  In OOtP, he 
> shows up (infrequently) at Grimmauld Place, always after dark.  
Can 
> anyone cite a case of D'dore being out in daylight?  Just a 
thought.


This is my first post to this group. I'd like to briefly say that I 
really enjoy reading your ideas and theories. There are some good 
thinkers out there!

In response to this post, I think there have been numerous times 
that DD has been outside in daylight during events. As one example, 
in GoF, DD was at the lakeside for the second task, which started at 
9:30 am. He was still there when Harry emerged from the water an 
hour later.

I think he's been around for Quidditch matches, too.

So I don't think DD is a vampire. Snape, on the other hand, is a 
virtual shoo-in in my opinion!

Ellen





From SnapesRaven at web.de  Fri Mar 19 11:32:19 2004
From: SnapesRaven at web.de (SnapesRaven)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 12:32:19 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort *inside* Harry's head (mind)? (Was: Re: Wanting or presenting: Was: Snape's reaction to Harry in Slytherin)
References: <c3d6nm+42fm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002a01c40da5$d71f1580$0302a8c0@henrike>

No: HPFGUIDX 93390

  
  Siriusly Snapey Susan wrote:
  continue to be slightly distressed that many people continue to say 
  that the Sorting Hat **wanted** to put Harry in Slytherin.  It reads 
  to me that the SH merely *presented* Harry w/ the information that he 
  could do well there...

  Berit replies:

  I'm inclined to agree with you. But, there is also Harry's own 
  interpretation of the Hat's words to consider:

  Quote:"'But I'm a Gryffindor,' Harry thought. 'The Sorting Hat 
  wouldn't have put me in here if I had Slytherin blood...'
  'Ah,' said a nasty little voice in his brain, 'But the Sorting hat 
  *wanted* (italics in the book) to put you in Slytherin, don't you 
  remember?'" (CoS p. 147 UK Ed)

  SnapesRaven:
  This little voice bothered me throughout the whole book. It keeps reappearing in moments of doubt and inner battle for Harry, and it doesn't reassure him but rather makes him insecure, and maybe he mistrusts his friends also because of these gnawing suspicions (at the beginning of the book he wonders why Ron and Hermione seem to be together while he is at Privet Drive; sorry I don't quote anything but I haven't got the book at hand right now). 
  I thought the voice might be Voldemort's, since he now shares Harry's blood and they had a connection through the scar all zhe time. I just didn't think of Voldemort using such subtle means, carefulle 'planting' bad feelings in Harry in order to make him turn from everyone he trusted thus far. 
  Opinions, anyone?

  SnapesRaven



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





From belijako at online.no  Fri Mar 19 12:07:01 2004
From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 12:07:01 -0000
Subject: ordering dungbombs
In-Reply-To: <20040319030644.57441.qmail@web13503.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c3enp5+lgj6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93391

Ms Mo Me wrote:
Anyway, as he is going to the owlry, Mrs.Norris, the
cat, sees him and goes off to warn Filtch.  Then,
Flitch shows up and says he's been tipped off that
someone is ordering dungbombs.
 
However, I have never been able to know what to
make of it.

Berit replies:

I don't have the books with me, but as far as I remember Harry and 
his friends suspected (quite rightly I think) that it was Umbridge 
who had told Mr Filch someone was trying to order dungbombs. Of 
course this was not her real worry: She wanted Mr Filch to spy on the 
students and intercept any communication going on in the hope that he 
would catch anyone (especially Harry) with valuable information. I 
recall Mr Filch being under the command to deliver any 
letters/messages directly to Umbridge. Remember, Umbridge even 
intercepted Hedwig to find out what Harry was up to, breaking her 
wing!

Berit
http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Fri Mar 19 12:34:32 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 12:34:32 -0000
Subject: Switching houses
In-Reply-To: <c3dl83+erjl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3epco+t68l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93392

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, JessaDrow at a... wrote:
> > I've heard rumors that in the next book someone would be switching
> > houses. Is this an actual quote that can be found somewhere? Or 
just 
> > something floating around?
> > 
> 


 
> bboy_mn:
> 
> snip<
> 
> My best scenerio for a switch involves one or more of the legendary
> and so-called 'Good Slytherins'. I believe that it will be in the
> continuation of D.A. Club that the houses will be united, to the
> extent that it is possible. 
> 
> That means, after Draco and Co. leave the DA Club, some Slytherins
> will stay. One or more of those Slytherins may take so much heat and
> harrassement from Draco & Co. that he/she will have no choice but to
> switch houses. They will have to leave Slytherin house for their own
> safety. 
> 
> Thus the mighty legend of the 'Good Slytherin' will be fulfilled. 
Most
> of use think it will either be Theodore Nott or Blaise Zabini, one 
of
> whom is assumed to be the Slytherin boy who could see the Thestrals.
> 


>snip<

Potioncat:
But then we wouldn't have a "good Slytherin", we'd have a "mis-sorted 
Gryffindor/Hufflepuff/Ravenclaw."

Given how quickly quotes are usually found by this group, I tend to 
think this is an urban legend. But it's fun to wonder about.  (My 
vote is Snape as Head of Gryffindor)

Potioncat 




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Fri Mar 19 13:15:48 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:15:48 -0000
Subject: Wanting or presenting: Was: Snape's reaction to Harry in Slytherin
In-Reply-To: <c3d6nm+42fm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3erq4+2tls@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93393

> 
>Berit wrote:
> 
> To me, the whole plot of CoS is tufted on the gnawing suspicion 
that 
> maybe, just maybe, Harry is not *only* what he seems to be, that 
> there are more to the boy than meets the eye...
> 
> So yes, I'm inclined to believe the subtle hints of CoS points to 
the 
> Hat not only suggesting Slytherin, but also *wanting* to put Harry 
> there... just as much as it wanted to put him in Gryffindor! In its 
> own words: Harry was particularly difficult to place! And it won't 
> take back its words that he would have done well in Slytherin! Very 
> odd, when what Harry *really* needed just then was a reassurance 
that 
> he had been placed in the (only) right house, Gryffindor... He 
didn't 
> get that reassurance, now did he? 
> 


Potioncat:
Once again, this is a thread that has had a lot of interesting posts 
made to it.  There have been several very good points made.

Certainly Harry has his own Slytherin traits and possibly, in a 
different decade he might have done very well in Slytherin.  It seems 
to me the hat more than any character, sees the  houses without 
bias...it does not seem to view Slytherin as evil.

It also sees what is going on around the WW and gives advice.  With 
that in mind, how could it not know how badly Harry would fit with 
Draco and Snape?  Or perhaps, its point was that Slytherin the house 
was as good a fit as Gryffindor and as someone else pointed out, 
perhaps it was never going to actually put him there.

Perhaps the house has told certain students that they fit in several 
houses as a way to get students to look at the house separation 
differently. So Harry is a Gryffinslyther and Hermione is a 
Gryffinclaw and Luna is perhaps a Ravendor, Ron a Gryffinpuff?

Potioncat




From eloiseherisson at aol.com  Fri Mar 19 13:15:38 2004
From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 08:15:38 EST
Subject: ADMIN: Less is More (Reminder about Snipping)
Message-ID: <1e3.1badb53b.2d8c4c7a@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93394

Greetings from Hexquarters!

May we take the opportunity to remind you of something?

Snipping.

No, no, *not* SHIPping, *snipping*!

Yes. That. Editing out unnecessary material from the posts to which you
reply.

You know. You read your way through a long message:

He said.
She said.
So-and-so commented.
etc., etc...

And somewhere in the middle of it all is a point that you just *have* to
answer.

Please folks, before you reply, will you cut down the original message to
*the minimum needed to place your own comments into context*?

At present we seem to be receiving a large number of posts where the quotes
far, far exceed the new comments in length. We want to read what *you* have
to say, not what s/he said for the fifth or fiftieth time.

This is a Very High Volume List. It helps our bandwidth, it helps those on
Digest (who otherwise have to scroll repeatedly through the same posts over
and over again to get to the new stuff) and it helps the sanity of your Elves 
if
everyone abides by our snipping conventions.

And it makes *your* comments stand out much more clearly.

Please assume that anyone reading your post *is* following the thread, but
remember that they are not mind-readers, so they will not know which precise
point you are replying to unless you quote it.

Our convention here is to place quotes *before* comments. Please abide by
this.

Would you also please clearly attribute quotes at the top, preferably cutting

quotees signatures from the bottom, so that they are not later mistaken for
the attribution of your own thoughts (trust us, it happens).

What do we mean by quotes before comments and cutting the signature
and placing it at the top for attribution? This:



Weezy Elf wrote:
> We have quite a lot of interesting, fun new members, don't we? >>>

We certainly do! It's been a bit tricky keeping up with all the
discussion, but it's great to have so many new people to discuss new
canon with!

--Kelley Elf



With many thanks,

Your List Administration Team


    
    



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From peckham at cyberramp.net  Fri Mar 19 14:09:02 2004
From: peckham at cyberramp.net (luna_loco)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 14:09:02 -0000
Subject: All Things Green II
In-Reply-To: <c37fbo+hfet@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3eutu+4i9v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93395

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Dicentra spectabilis"
<dicentra at x> wrote:
> It's the wearin' of the gr-- ... er ... the *finding* of the green.  
> 

Ch 9, The Woes of Mrs. Weasley
Page 153 (US)
"I'll drop you off on the way to that toilet in Bethnal Green.  Come
on...."

Ch 22, St. Mungo's Hospital for Magical Maladies and Injuries
Page 488 (US)
But that fellow over there," he said, dropping his voice and nodding
toward the bed opposite in which a man lay looking green and sickly
and staring at the ceiling.

Ch 23, Christmas on the Closed Ward
Page 492 (US)
Did he expect to see Voldemort staring out of them, afraid, perhaps,
that their vivid green might turn suddenly to scarlet, with catlike
slits for pupils?

Allen, Ravenclaw




From peckham at cyberramp.net  Fri Mar 19 14:12:08 2004
From: peckham at cyberramp.net (luna_loco)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 14:12:08 -0000
Subject: All Things Green II
In-Reply-To: <c37fbo+hfet@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3ev3o+edp5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93396

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Dicentra spectabilis"
<dicentra at x> wrote:
> It's the wearin' of the gr-- ... er ... the *finding* of the green.  


Ch 23, Christmas on the Closed Ward
Page 505 (US)
Harry and the others got out of the car, and Mundungus drove off
around the corner to wait for them; they strolled casually toward the
window where the dummy in green nylon stood, then one by one, stepped
through the glass.

Ch 30, Grawp
Page 686 (US)
Harry and Hermione looked at each other, then ducked into the cover of
the trees behind Hagrid, who was already striding away from them into
the green gloom, his crossbow over his arm.

Ch 35, Beyond the Veil
Page 803 (US)
Harry did not see what happened next: Kingsley swayed across his field
of vision, battling with the pockmarked Rookwood, now mask-less;
another jet of green light flew over Harry's head as he launched
himself toward Neville ---

Allen, Ravenclaw
Wondering why so many green references occur in runaway sentences.




From saraandra at saraandra.plus.com  Fri Mar 19 14:31:19 2004
From: saraandra at saraandra.plus.com (amanitamuscaria1)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 14:31:19 -0000
Subject: Moaning Myrtle - Toilet Training
In-Reply-To: <c3eesp+8qqb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3f07n+9u1i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93397

Doriane's comment:
> snip < 
> And in the list of "How can Myrtle...", here's my favourite : how 
> can Myrtle be dragged all the way to the lake when someone flushes 
> her toilet ? The first time I read it, I found it a) yucky, b) 
> hilarious, and c) impossible ("But... She's a ghost !")
> 
> Del

AmanitaMuscaria questions what she's doing in the toilet that 
flushes!!!??
I mean, there's the question about how she's washed down to the lake 
by the water, presumably having some corporeal properties.
Then, there's also the ecological implications (covered in other 
posts a while back) about flushing toilets into the lake, the 
merpeople's world.
But what really gets me is that this is a girls' bathroom, so 
flushing one toilet doesn't mean they all flush, like men's urinals - 
what's she doing!? I bet JKR never tells us ...
Cheers. AmanitaMuscaria





From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Fri Mar 19 14:45:30 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 19 Mar 2004 15:45:30 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's strongest weapon
Message-ID: <20040319144530.778561EC7A1@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 93398

Kimberly:
> This isn't the first time that Harry's emotion, not his accelerated
> Wizardry skills have saved his life.    The first time is when he is a
> baby.    It's not his emotion directly but the emotion/sacrifice of his
> Mother that saved him.    I wonder how relevant this is in the eventual
> outcome between Harry and Voldemort.    We see instances where his emotion
> seems to be enough, where Voldemort is so repulsed by it that he can't
> even touch Harry, let alone kill him.    

I was thinking about it some time ago. Maybe JKR will go with something like final scene of Tad Wiliam's "Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn" trlogy
(here
s
p
o
i
l
e
r
for people who hasn't read it)
when - after long and pretty standard quest-and-battle several thousands pages long adventure, when everybody expects great battle of wills, the final fight is resolved by forgivness.
What if Harry chooses to abandon his anger, forgive Voldie and offer his life, rather than turn into killer? (very buddhist, not propagating bad karma anymore - anoter proof JKR is poisoning chilren minds ;;-)
And Voldie takes a triumphal last shot and it ends badly for him, poor Thingy.

Cheers, Viridis.

P.S. Can somebody tell me (can be off-list) where this ridiculous but very funny "Lord Thingy" comes from?


________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!



From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Fri Mar 19 15:02:12 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 19 Mar 2004 16:02:12 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Only one death
Message-ID: <20040319150212.BECDD1EC76A@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 93399

> Neri:
> A slightly different question is why were they missing so many times? 
> As to that, I can testify from my own military experience (luckily 
> not very extensive) that JKR is quite realistic. It is much easier to 
> miss than hit your target even at the range, not to mention while you 
> also try to avoid getting shot yourself. I've once read an article by 
> some military theorist who calculated that the number of the expended 
> bullets in modern wars is larger than the number of causalities by a 
> factor of about a million, and I find this number quite believable.

Good point. The analisys of WW II fighting proved that not the accuracy of shooting counts but sheer mass of fire (which makes sense, as most of the soldiers are so-so trained). And also that although the range of personal rifles was about one kilometre, the most of lethal shots were below 100 m range. That's why whole world exchanged long rifles for short assault rifles with big firepower but short range.

Since most of the Wizard fight seem to have character of short but intense melee, better to get the opponent down with minimal effort, but as fast as possible. If we have to retreat, they won't hurt us. If we get them down and keep the field, then we may finish the job at ease. Avada ain't necessary, knives will suffice...

Different matter would be in case of large, open field battle - then I would expect large booms, anti apparition shields, banishing jars of nasty potions at the enemy etc. I wonder about the Hogwart battle, specially because wizards lack middle range weapon of the assault rifle kind (due to the aiming problems I'd say wand is a handgun).

Cheers, Viridis (who was planning on essay of Wizards military theory, but never did it)

________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!



From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Fri Mar 19 15:12:16 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 19 Mar 2004 16:12:16 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How did Moaning Myrtle Make the Water Splash?
Message-ID: <20040319151216.590E01EC78B@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 93400

> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Robert Jones"
> <jones.r.h.j at w...> wrote:
> > Here is another trivial problem I don't understand: In COS, Moaning 
> > Myrtle made a splash in her restroom when HRH were there ? but how 
> > did she move the water?  ...edited...
> > 
> > Bobby
> 
> bboy_mn:
> 
> To find the answer, I think we need to look beyond the book and look
> at ghosts in general; I guess you could say ghosts in the real world.

> So, ghosts can do things in the material world to make there presents
> known. Usually, the more tramatic a ghost's death was and the more
> tormented their afterlife, the more they cause physical telekinesis
> and manifestations. 
[snip] 
> So from this we can assume that Myrtle would be very limited in her
> ability to pick up a bucket of water, but in times of emotional trama
> and stress, she might be able to displace some water. 
[snip]

Viridis (me):
There is another mention in CoS about interaction of ghosts with material world: after Nearly Headless Nick was petrified he was "ventilated" with large fan into the Hospital Wing (by Justin, as I remember). 
So to some extent ghost can influence matery in JKR books (and be influenced, like flushing down).

Cheers, Viridis
________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!



From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Fri Mar 19 15:22:18 2004
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 15:22:18 -0000
Subject: How did Moaning Myrtle Make the Water Splash?
In-Reply-To: <c3d5f0+iuqr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3f37a+hg3q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93401

Bobby wrote:

> Here is another trivial problem I don't understand: In COS, 
Moaning 
> Myrtle made a splash in her restroom when HRH were there ? but how 
> did she move the water?  

JKR's other ghosts do interact with matter.  They are visible, and 
they can see; light is just as real as water.  They speak, and can 
hear, so they interact with motion in the air.  They seem cold when 
they pass through people, another physical phenomenon.

Also, they tend to hang around the same location, suggesting quite a 
fundamental bond - it seems that when Binns died he carried on 
literally where he left off, getting up one morning as a ghost.

David




From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Fri Mar 19 15:25:59 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 19 Mar 2004 16:25:59 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Unlocking the Hidden Pattern
Message-ID: <20040319152559.56CDA1EC75B@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 93402

> Kathy
> After reading what you had written so far, I started to doodle and made a
> hexagon figure connecting each book to its mirror like image. What I saw 
> when I was done was a spider web, with book seven being in the middle. 

Hexagram? You mean six point star? Clear proof JKR is a puppet of Elders of Zion - which of course explain her popularity and how eassily she became a star - this mafia arranged the publishers, publicity and films (which are funded by banks, and we all know who rules the banks). And book seven? Cabalistic number!
It all has the aim of poisoning children minds with diabolic message, because,as everybody know, hexagram is the same as pentagram, used in magic for summoning the evil spirits.

Cheers, Viridis


P.S. I do know the difference between hexagram, pentagram etc. I just couldn't restrain myself from satirizing all these people who are making HP books "Black Bible of our times". I've run into such texts lately.
________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!



From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Mar 19 16:02:44 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 16:02:44 -0000
Subject: The Podmore Connection--Percy as DD's Spy
Message-ID: <c3f5j4+ppmv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93403

We have puzzled over whether Percy was secretly working for 
Dumbledore in OOP and if so, what  secret information Percy 
might have tried to convey in his letter to Ron. (OOPch 14) I think I 
have it. It is this: "(If you are writing to Mother at any point, you 
might tell her that a certain Sturgis Podmore, who is a great 
friend of Dumbledore's, has recently been sent to Azkaban for 
tresspass at the Ministry.)"

Now, if the Ministry at large knew that Podmore was a friend of 
Dumbledore's, the Daily Prophet would have mentioned it. But 
SecretOrderMember!Percy knows.  Of course it would be 
awkward (though not fatal)  for Umbridge to realize he'd 
neglected to mention this little detail, so Percy sends his 
message secretly.  

IMO, the whole purpose of the letter was to call  Harry's attention 
to Podmore's sentencing.  Dumbledore, who has learned from 
Sirius about Harry's scar hurting, made the connection with 
Podmore's sentencing, and he wanted Harry to make it too. But 
he did't want  Harry to know that the Order had recognized the 
connection, lest that information be transmitted back to 
Voldemort. Unfortunately it went  right past Harry, and Hermione 
as well. See, she's *not* right all the time. 

When Harry talks to Sirius about it,  he says that  Voldemort must 
have been really angry at the time. He doesn't realize until 
*much* later that Voldemort was actually happy and he doesn't 
tell anybody in the Order about this change. Dumbledore 
probably still thinks that Voldemort was angry (at losing a DE), 
and thus that Podmore switched sides. He doesn't know that 
Podmore was betrayed by someone else. 

Pippin





From meriaugust at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 19 16:05:18 2004
From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 16:05:18 -0000
Subject: Harry's strongest weapon
In-Reply-To: <20040319144530.778561EC7A1@front.interia.pl>
Message-ID: <c3f5nu+bsbf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93404


> And Voldie takes a triumphal last shot and it ends badly for him, 
poor Thingy.
> 
> Cheers, Viridis.
> 
> P.S. Can somebody tell me (can be off-list) where this ridiculous 
but very funny "Lord Thingy" comes from?

"Lord Thingy" is one of the ways that Fudge refers to LV in the 
Daily Prophet once he acknowledges LV's ressurection. He still can't 
bring himself to say the name! 
Meri 




From lizvega2 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 19 16:48:39 2004
From: lizvega2 at yahoo.com (lizvega2)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 16:48:39 -0000
Subject: Switching houses
In-Reply-To: <c3epco+t68l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3f897+h041@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93405

I've been trying to make the connection between the missing Mr. 
Goyle in the MOM battle in OOP, and the student that will be 
switching houses. There's no canon to support that Sr. Goyle wasn't 
there, but when Malfoy starts starts sending the DE's in certain 
pairs and directions to capture Harry and the prophesy- Goyle's name 
isn't mentioned. Don't Crabb and Goyle stick together like glue? It 
would seem they learned this behavior from their fathers. So, is 
there some reason why he wasn't there, if, indeed, he wasn't? 

I've been reading the posts of all the theories regarding the 'good' 
slytherin, and how this person would instigate the unification of 
the school houses. But, rather than any 'good' slytherin, how about 
a fearful one? Which I have seen theorized as well. Perhaps Goyle's 
dad made a break from LV- and now he doesn't want his son to be in 
the same house with the other boys, and requests his change to DD? I 
still can't find the quote from Jo regarding the change, but I know 
I've read it in Quick Quotes- I just can't remember if she said the 
change would be voluntary, or involuntary? Just imagine stupid Goyle 
sitting in the Gryffindor common room, telling Harry and his friends 
everything he knows about Draco, Lucius, LV, etc. !
 
> > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, JessaDrow at a... wrote:
> > > I've heard rumors that in the next book someone would be 
switching
> > > houses. Is this an actual quote that can be found somewhere? 
Or 
> just 
> > > something floating around?
> > > 
> > 
> 
> 
>  





From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Fri Mar 19 16:59:47 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 16:59:47 -0000
Subject: Wanting or presenting: Was: Snape's reaction to Harry in Slytherin
In-Reply-To: <c3d6nm+42fm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3f8u3+pcic@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93406

Siriusly Snapey Susan wrote:
> continue to be slightly distressed that many people continue to say 
> that the Sorting Hat **wanted** to put Harry in Slytherin.  It 
> reads to me that the SH merely *presented* Harry w/ the information 
> that he could do well there...
 
Berit replies:
> I'm inclined to agree with you. But, there is also Harry's own 
> interpretation of the Hat's words to consider:
> 
> Quote:"'But I'm a Gryffindor,' Harry thought. 'The Sorting Hat 
> wouldn't have put me in here if I had Slytherin blood...'
> 'Ah,' said a nasty little voice in his brain, 'But the Sorting hat 
> *wanted* (italics in the book) to put you in Slytherin, don't you 
> remember?'" (CoS p. 147 UK Ed)
> 
> And, then there's the even more interesting second meeting between 
> Harry and the Sorting Hat:
> 
> Quote:"Surely it couldn't hurt if he [Harry] took the hat down and 
> tried again? Just to see... just to make sure it had put him in the 
> right house... 'You've been wondering whether I put you in the 
> right house,' said the hat smartly. 'Yes, you were particularly 
> difficult to place. But I stand by what I said before ? you would 
> have done well in Slytherin.'" (CoS, p. 154-155 UK Ed)
> 
> So yes, I'm inclined to believe the subtle hints of CoS points to 
> the Hat not only suggesting Slytherin, but also *wanting* to put 
> Harry there... just as much as it wanted to put him in Gryffindor! 
> In its own words: Harry was particularly difficult to place! And it 
> won't take back its words that he would have done well in 
> Slytherin! Very odd, when what Harry *really* needed just then was 
> a reassurance that he had been placed in the (only) right house, 
> Gryffindor... He didn't get that reassurance, now did he? 

 
Susan:
Thanks for this additional input, Berit.  It is helpful to get the 
two sections of text together.  I still think, though, that the 
word "wanted" is awfully strong to place onto the SH.  "You would 
have done well" is a statement of the SH's opinion but I don't see it 
as a statement of **desire**.  The hat *didn't* say, "Damn it!  *I* 
wanted to put you in Slytherin, but that darn DD tells me that CHOICE 
is the key and I had to let you go to Gryffindor."

It *is* curious that the SH does not assuage Harry's fears, doesn't 
come right out and say, "Oh, no, you're a Gryffindor through & 
through" or some such thing.  I'm not sure why it did this, other 
than perhaps it really wants Harry to *think* about this for 
himself.  But I stand by my original statement, that while the SH 
believed Harry could have done well in Slytherin, it did not 
necessarily *want* to place him there.

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Fri Mar 19 17:00:32 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 19 Mar 2004 18:00:32 +0100
Subject: Thanks for Thingy
Message-ID: <20040319170032.2F967163E7@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 93407

> Meri 
> "Lord Thingy" is one of the ways that Fudge refers to LV in the 
> Daily Prophet once he acknowledges LV's ressurection. He still can't 
> bring himself to say the name! 

I overlooked it. I wonder if it's indirect sign fo Fudge's sense of humour or direct one for his stupidity. I guess the second one.
Thingy... My goodnes. ROTFLMAO.

Cheers, Viridis
________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!



From tmar78 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 19 17:32:10 2004
From: tmar78 at yahoo.com (tyler maroney)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:32:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Dumbledore's probably not a vampire
In-Reply-To: <1079670865.5710.41960.m5@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040319173210.48242.qmail@web14107.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93408

philospeed:
Can anyone cite a case of D'dore being out in
daylight?  Just a thought.
  
Tyler:
I think there actually is a reference in SS;  I
believe he was watching the Gryffindor Vs. Hufflepuff
Quidditch match.  (Sorry don't have the books in front
of me,  so I can't get more specific than that)

Also,  in GoF,  he's outdoors during daylight hours on
two different occasions.  Both times he's acting as a
judge for the Triwizard.  

Dumbledore's probably not a vampire,  but I guess
anything's possible.  I once wrote a fanfic where
Harry switches bodies w/ a vampire and has to use a
magical sunblock lotion in order to be active during
the day.

Tyler,  who secretly hopes for a Harry/Luna pairing
(well,  I guess now its not a secret)  :)



=====
"It is our choices that show what we truly are,  far more than our abilities."

                                                                         - Albus Dumbledore

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam
http://mail.yahoo.com



From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Fri Mar 19 17:45:22 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 17:45:22 -0000
Subject: The Podmore Connection--Percy as DD's Spy
In-Reply-To: <c3f5j4+ppmv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3fbji+qnjv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93409

Pippin wrote:
> We have puzzled over whether Percy was secretly working for 
> Dumbledore in OOP and if so, what  secret information Percy 
> might have tried to convey in his letter to Ron. (OOPch 14) I think 
> I have it. It is this: "(If you are writing to Mother at any point, 
> you might tell her that a certain Sturgis Podmore, who is a great 
> friend of Dumbledore's, has recently been sent to Azkaban for 
> tresspass at the Ministry.)"
> 
> Now, if the Ministry at large knew that Podmore was a friend of 
> Dumbledore's, the Daily Prophet would have mentioned it. But 
> SecretOrderMember!Percy knows.  Of course it would be 
> awkward (though not fatal)  for Umbridge to realize he'd 
> neglected to mention this little detail, so Percy sends his 
> message secretly.  


Susan:
I'm trying to follow this, Pippin, and for some reason I'm not doing 
very well [Brain Fuddle has taken hold of me this Friday].  ANYWAY, 
if I'm understanding your argument about Percy--that in fact he 
*hasn't* left the Good Guys but is working for DD--then what do we do 
w/ this comment from the World Book Day chat?

Echo: Was Percy acting entirely of his own accord in Order of the 
Phoenix? 
JK Rowling replies -> I'm afraid so. 

Will your theory still fit?  I suppose this questioner was trying to 
get at whether Percy was acting under the Imperius Curse...and JKR's 
answer would mean he is *not*.  So I suppose one could argue that if 
Percy is SecretOrderMember!Percy, it *would* fit JKR's answer that he 
was acting of his own accord.  However...the use of the words "I'm 
AFRAID so" [emph. added] makes me think JKR is saying Percy was 
behaving badly because he did truly turn bad; there seems to be 
disappointment or disapproval in her choice of words.

Or is she just toying with us?  ;-)

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From melclaros at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 19 17:48:00 2004
From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 17:48:00 -0000
Subject: Is Dumbledore a vampire?
In-Reply-To: <c3dh75+tqev@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3fbog+bkk8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93410

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "philospeed" <philospeed at y...> 
wrote:
> Everyone seems to think that Snape is a vampire, 


Everyone?
Really? 
I certainly don't think Snape's a vampire and none of my fandom 
friends do.
Seems to me your "everyone" is a small (but vocal) minority and even 
those have been pretty much shot down by JKR herself. 
So now we have to start on Dumbledore?
Same question: What possible REASON would there be, in JKR the 
writer's mind, for Dumbledore to be a vampire (or werewolf, or 
hippogriff or three-toed sloth)?

Mel, sick of vampires




From tmar78 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 19 17:51:32 2004
From: tmar78 at yahoo.com (tyler maroney)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:51:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: LV showing mercy to Lily?
In-Reply-To: <1079715600.6708.63654.m13@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040319175132.85109.qmail@web14104.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93411

greatelderone: 
why does a ruthless Dark Lord actually show an ounce
of mercy to Lily 

Tyler:
I don't think it was about mercy.  IMO,  LV gets off
on the idea of having people cower before him;  he
enjoys seeing fear in his victims.  He enjoys the
feeling of dominance.  I think he warned Lily to stand
aside because he expected her to comply out of fear. 
When she didn't,  I think he decided to kill her as a
way to try and maintain in his mind this belief that
he can intimidate anyone.

Tyler

=====
"It is our choices that show what we truly are,  far more than our abilities."

                                                                         - Albus Dumbledore

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam
http://mail.yahoo.com



From eloiseherisson at aol.com  Fri Mar 19 18:59:04 2004
From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloise_herisson)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 18:59:04 -0000
Subject: Why didn't  Lily have to die?
In-Reply-To: <c3ehff+lbt9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3ffto+renq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93412

greatelderone: 
>>why does a ruthless Dark Lord actually show an ounce
>> of mercy to Lily 

> Tyler:
> I don't think it was about mercy.  IMO,  LV gets off
> on the idea of having people cower before him;  he
> enjoys seeing fear in his victims.  He enjoys the
> feeling of dominance.  I think he warned Lily to stand
> aside because he expected her to comply out of fear. 
> When she didn't,  I think he decided to kill her as a
> way to try and maintain in his mind this belief that
> he can intimidate anyone.

While this may also be true, what greatelderone says is, I believe,  
correct:

>Lily (needn't) have died on the night 
> when Voldemort attacks the Potter residence. Voldemort himself 
> mentions it first in PS/SS and then later in POA we hear him tell 
> Lily to stand aside.




In PS/SS Voldemort does indeed say,

"I killed your father first and he put up a courageous fight...but 
your mother needn't have died...she was trying to protect you."

I think he *does* expect her to comply out of fear at this stage, but 
he also suggests that her death was unnecessary in a way that James' 
death wasn't. After all, you'd expect a mother to fight for her 
baby's life, so to suggest that there was any question that she might 
have got away with her life is strange. Perhaps Voldemort has some 
strange sense of chivalry, or perhaps this is a concrete example of 
Dumbledore's statement that the one thing he doesn't understand is 
love. We know her death was inevitable; Voldemort doesn't understand 
why she would do anything other than save her own skin. 

At the same time, he does *not* say that he killed James because he 
was trying to protect his family; he simply says that he killed James 
first, that James put up a brave fight. It is only when Harry relives 
the scene under the influence of the Dementors that we hear James is 
trying to field Voldemort whilst Lily gets Harry away. Voldemort's 
statement makes it sound on the contrary as if James, as well as 
Harry, was an intended victim, Lily merely a casualty of war, one who 
had to die because she got in the way.

I cannot imagine how she could have been allowed to get away with 
having witnessed Voldmort murdering her husband and son, though. I 
can't really imagine Voldemort taking the trouble to spare her and 
modify her memory when he was apparently AKing people all over the 
place and she was so strongly associated with two people he wanted 
dead. In fact the more I think about it, the more mystifying this 
statement of his that she needn't have died is.

~Eloise















From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Mar 19 19:04:59 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 19:04:59 -0000
Subject: The Podmore Connection--Percy as DD's Spy
In-Reply-To: <c3fbji+qnjv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3fg8r+f6qk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93413

> Susan:
> I'm trying to follow this, Pippin, and for some reason I'm not 
doing  very well [Brain Fuddle has taken hold of me this Friday].  
ANYWAY,  if I'm understanding your argument about Percy--that 
in fact he  *hasn't* left the Good Guys but is working for DD--then 
what do we do  w/ this comment from the World Book Day chat?
> 
> Echo: Was Percy acting entirely of his own accord in Order of 
the Phoenix? 
> JK Rowling replies -> I'm afraid so. 
> 
> Will your theory still fit?  I suppose this questioner was trying
to  get at whether Percy was acting under the Imperius 
Curse...and JKR's answer would mean he is *not*.  So I 
suppose one could argue that if  Percy is 
SecretOrderMember!Percy, it *would* fit JKR's answer that he 
was acting of his own accord.  However...the use of the words 
"I'm  AFRAID so" [emph. added] makes me think JKR is saying 
Percy was  behaving badly because he did truly turn bad; there 
seems to be  disappointment or disapproval in her choice of 
words.<

It could be. But it may be she wished, besides not giving 
anything away, to acknowledge that the pain and grief Percy is 
causing is genuine and unfortunate, regardless. After all, if, as is 
foreshadowed in GoF, one of the Weasleys dies before the 
truth can be revealed, they will never know that 
SecretOrderMember!Percy  hadn't really turned his back on his 
family.

I could imagine her giving a similar answer to : Did Dumbledore 
really think it was  a good idea to leave Harry at the Dursleys?

Pippin




From belijako at online.no  Fri Mar 19 19:17:09 2004
From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 19:17:09 -0000
Subject: Snape, trying very hard not to smile? Or is he just allergic to cats?
Message-ID: <c3fgvl+10qmb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93414

There has resently been a thread on this forum discussing how to 
interpret the "glint" in Snape's eyes when Harry asks him if it's his 
job to find out what the Dark Lord is saying to his DE's (OotP p. 521 
UK Ed).

I've noticed another one of his expressions that is harder to explain 
considering the situation he's in: Mrs. Norris has just been found 
petrified, and Dumbledore is examining the cat very closely to find 
out what's the matter with her. Everyone is also aware of the very 
dire message written on the wall where the cat was found: "The 
Chamber of Secrets has been opened. Enemies of the Heir, beware." 
(CoS p.106 UK Ed) So this is clearly a serious situation to everyone 
present. Then, what do you make of this:

"The tip of Dumbledore's long, crooked nose was barely an inch from 
Mrs Norris's fur. He was looking at her closely through his half-moon 
spectacles, his long fingers gently prodding and poking. Professor 
McGonagall was bent almost as close, her eyes narrowed. Snape loomed 
behind them, half in shadow, wearing a most peculiar expression: it 
was as though he was trying very hard not to smile. And Lockhart was 
hovering around all of them, making suggestions." (CoS p.107-108 UK 
Ed)

Why does Snape seem to find the situation amusing? Does Rowling want 
us to think he might be a baddie after all, excited about what has 
just happened? Or is this a rare moment of Snape thinking something's 
funny? Is it possible he's just trying not to smile at the strange 
sight of Dumbledore's long crooked nose buried in Mrs Norris's fur? 
Does Snape even possess that kind of humour? Anyone out there who has 
delved deeply into the psychological make-up of our Snape and can 
give a satisfactory explanation as to what Snape's "most peculiar 
expression" is all about?

And just a little P.S: "Thankfully Snape sneezed at almost exactly 
the moment Ron swore." (CoS p. 192 UK Ed)
Hard to believe, isn't it, that even our mysterious Potion Master who 
has made self-control an art-form are subject to mundane bodily 
reactions like sneezing... Makes him more human, doesn't it? :-))

Berit
http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html




From annemehr at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 19 19:43:14 2004
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 19:43:14 -0000
Subject: Wanting or presenting: Was: Snape's reaction to Harry in Slytherin
In-Reply-To: <c3f8u3+pcic@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3figi+90ll@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93415


Berit quoted:
> > Quote:"Surely it couldn't hurt if he [Harry] took the hat down and 
> > tried again? Just to see... just to make sure it had put him in the 
> > right house... 'You've been wondering whether I put you in the 
> > right house,' said the hat smartly. 'Yes, you were particularly 
> > difficult to place. But I stand by what I said before ? you would 
> > have done well in Slytherin.'" (CoS, p. 154-155 UK Ed)

Annemehr:
I have seen this passage quoted this way before.  Here, Berit ends it
with a period, but in my copy (Scholastic paperback) it ends in a
*dash* -- which tells me that Harry *interrupted* the hat by yanking
it off at this point.  But now I'm wondering if UK editions have a
period instead of a dash?


> Susan:
> Thanks for this additional input, Berit.  It is helpful to get the 
> two sections of text together.  I still think, though, that the 
> word "wanted" is awfully strong to place onto the SH.
<snip> 
> It *is* curious that the SH does not assuage Harry's fears, doesn't 
> come right out and say, "Oh, no, you're a Gryffindor through & 
> through" or some such thing.  I'm not sure why it did this, other 
> than perhaps it really wants Harry to *think* about this for 
> himself.  But I stand by my original statement, that while the SH 
> believed Harry could have done well in Slytherin, it did not 
> necessarily *want* to place him there.

Annemehr:
Well, because of the dash (in my text, at least), I'm not at all sure
the hat wasn't about to continue by saying something about how well
Harry *is* doing in Gryffindor, or how the hat was right to place him
there.  It also fits JKR's pattern of interrupting something
important.  It makes me wonder if Harry will be putting the hat on
again soon, maybe help Harry sort out some of what's going on inside
his head?

It is interesting that in CoS Harry had such an aversion to hearing he
*could have* been in Slytherin that he can't even wait for the hat to
finish its sentence.  Was he afraid the hat was going to switch his
house then and there?

Annemehr
picturing Slytherin!Harry with the hat on while it tells him "You
would have done well in Gryffindor..."





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Fri Mar 19 19:52:06 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 19:52:06 -0000
Subject: The Podmore Connection--Percy as DD's Spy
In-Reply-To: <c3fg8r+f6qk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3fj16+k8kr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93416

> > Susan wrote:

>snipping to the bone<

  So I suppose one could argue that if  Percy is 
> SecretOrderMember!Percy, it *would* fit JKR's answer that he 
> was acting of his own accord.  However...the use of the words 
> "I'm  AFRAID so" [emph. added] makes me think JKR is saying 
> Percy was  behaving badly because he did truly turn bad; there 
> seems to be  disappointment or disapproval in her choice of 
> words.<


Pippen answers: 
> It could be. But it may be she wished, besides not giving 
> anything away, to acknowledge that the pain and grief Percy is 
> causing is genuine and unfortunate, regardless.
 
More snipping to the bone< 


Potioncat:
I agree, with Pippen, I think Percy is acting for the good of the 
Order. It make sense to me, that he would continue to support DD, 
but use his level in the ministry as a front.  It is very likely 
neither Arthur or Molly know. I bet it hurt Percy a great deal to 
make his mother cry.
 He would most likely have lost his position in the Ministry if 
Fudge thought he was on still on good terms with his family.  On the 
other hand, it made Fudge feel even more justified, that this young 
man chose his ideals over the Weasleys'.
Potioncat




From lbiles at flash.net  Fri Mar 19 20:14:38 2004
From: lbiles at flash.net (leb2323)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 20:14:38 -0000
Subject: Switching houses
In-Reply-To: <146.24a7f660.2d8b732f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <c3fkbe+jm8u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93417

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, JessaDrow at a... wrote:
> I've heard rumors that in the next book someone would be switching
houses. Is 
> this an actual quote that can be found somewhere? Or just something
floating 
> around?
> Faith


Maybe it will be Marietta the sneak, still suffering from her
shameful affliction, who has been ostracized and sent packing to join 
Slytherin.  Just a thought.
leb





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Fri Mar 19 20:21:07 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 20:21:07 -0000
Subject: Snape, trying very hard not to smile? Or is he just allergic to cats?
In-Reply-To: <c3fgvl+10qmb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3fknj+ujch@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93418

Berit wrote:> 
> And just a little P.S: "Thankfully Snape sneezed at almost exactly 
> the moment Ron swore." (CoS p. 192 UK Ed)
> Hard to believe, isn't it, that even our mysterious Potion Master 
who 
> has made self-control an art-form are subject to mundane bodily 
> reactions like sneezing... Makes him more human, doesn't it? :-))
 
Potioncat:
I always wondered if Snape staged the sneeze, so that they could get 
by, but it seems out of character for Snape. (And hard to time.) Is 
anyone else suspicious?
Potioncat




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 19 21:53:53 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 21:53:53 -0000
Subject: Harry's shortest stay at Privet Drive
In-Reply-To: <c3efuj+330s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3fq5h+e16d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93419

> Del :
> One possibility is that DD or someone of the Order comes and takes 
> him somewhere, to teach him (and Ron and Hermione) a very useful 
> skill : how to Apparate. Think of the number of times in OoP where 
> some kind of escort had to be given to Harry to go from some place 
> to another. Think of what would have happened if Harry could simply 
> have Apparated to Grimmauld Place and found Sirius safe there. Think 
> of how things would have turned in the DoM if the kids could simply 
> have Apparated away. I don't think DD would care about the Trio not 
> being of age. They are obviously talented enough (the DA proved it) 
> to master even such a difficult trick as Apparating, the War is on, 
> and the kids need to be independent and mobile. If I were DD, I'd 
> teach them how to Apparate, pronto !! And since this can't be done 
> at Hogwarts, it has to be done during the coming summer holidays, 
> and preferably not at the Dursleys ;o)

Carol:
I realize that Dumbledore (like most Gryffindors other than
McGonagall) is sometimes lax about enforcing rules (that's what Snape
is for ;-) ), but I don't think he'd go so far as to illegally teach
them to apparate at sixteen since it would be a law rather than a
school rule that he'd be breaking. (I can certainly see them learning
to apparate in late summer in Book 7 when they're all of age, but I
think Book 6 is too early.) But maybe Hermione (assuming that she's
older, not younger, than the boys) will start teaching herself (or
taking lessons from McGonagall) after her birthday on September 19,
and certainly the boys could learn quite a bit about it if they're
watching her. I'm pretty sure, though, that teaching apparation to
underage wizards would get DD in trouble with the Ministry, a problem
he really doesn't need right now.

Carol, picturing DD opening a Howler from the new Minister of Magic
telling him he's committed an illegal apparation error!




From snapesmate at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 19 21:56:12 2004
From: snapesmate at hotmail.com (snapesmate)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 21:56:12 -0000
Subject: Regulus and Snape?
Message-ID: <c3fq9s+khd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93420

I know JKR said Regulus isn't saying much because he is dead, BUT, 
did anyone actually SEE his dead body? Did someone just tell Sirius 
his brother had been murdered? What if Snape was the one Voldemort 
had given the assignment of killing Regulus to?  If it was before 
Snape's conversion maybe that is what did it... maybe he couldn't 
bring himself to commit murder. If it was after his conversion, he 
might have just made a deal with Regulus.  Something like Regulus 
should disappear somewhere tropical  and Severus will claim he AKed 
Regulus.

Lynnette, who thinks Snape IS a good guy, even if he is NOT a nice
guy!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterverseofadults? 




From dk59us at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 19 22:03:22 2004
From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 22:03:22 -0000
Subject: Fawkes and his feathers
Message-ID: <c3fqna+enq0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93421

According to Ollivander in SS/PS, the phoenix whose feather forms
Harry's wand core gave just one other feather...which resides in
Voldemort's wand.

Later, Dumbledore tells Harry (is this at the end of COS? I don't have
the books with me...I just hope it's not the dreaded scourge of film
contamination!) that Fawkes is the phoenix in question.  And it's in
COS that we meet Fawkes.

Is there any canon or speculation on how/why a phoenix "gives"
feathers for use in wands?  Whether the fact that only two wands have
Fawkes' feathers is unusual? 

[For that matter, how many phoenixes exist in the WW...according to
Encyclopedia Mythica, the ancient Greek and Egyptian myths tell that
only one phoenix exists at a time.  Is that true in the WW as well?]

Also, how did Tom Riddle come to be chosen by a wand containing one of
those feathers?  (I'm assuming he bought it when he was still Tom, as
I can't quite imagine Voldemort strolling into Ollivanders's and
purchasing a wand in the usual way.  "Yew wood, phoenix feather core,
12 inches...excellent for evil overlord work!")

Is Fawkes small enough to be the "something small" of great importance
in the last two books?

Just some Friday afternoon wondering...

Eustace_Scrubb




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 19 22:06:18 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 22:06:18 -0000
Subject: Why didn't  Lily have to die?
In-Reply-To: <c3ehff+lbt9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3fqsq+av0o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93422

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatelderone"
<greatelderone at y...> wrote:
> Just out of curiosity, but why needn't Lily have died on the night 
> when Voldemort attacks the Potter residence. Voldemort himself 
> mentions it first in PS/SS and then later in POA we hear him tell 
> Lily to stand aside. Seeing how he killed James, a pureblood though a 
> traitor, why does a ruthless Dark Lord actually show an ounce of 
> mercy to Lily who he considers a mudblood according to his ideology 
> and who probably defied him thrice according to the terms of the 
> prophecy. I mean he could just have systemically slaughtered the 
> whole potter family. Why did he actually try and make an effort in 
> having her stand aside? It's so not like him imo.


Possibly she didn't have her wand with her and certainly she didn't
attempt to fight him as James did. So regardless of what may have
happened on previous occasions when she defied him, at this point she
was only an obstacle, a "silly girl," not a threat. What *I* don't
understand is how he could have thought that *any* mother would stand
aside and let him kill her baby. Maybe all those years as a bodiless
spirit possessing snakes and rats robbed him of any knowledge of human
psychology. In his view, there's no good or evil, only the desire for
power, so maybe love and other human emotions are beyond the scope of
his understanding. Mercy also would be beyond his comprehension. I
think he was merely focusing on his goal and what he wanted was to get
her out of his way so he could commit the murder he had come to
commit. But would he have left her there alive if his plan had
succeeded? I don't think so--unless he wanted an eyewitness who would
inform Dumbledore that the prophecy would not be fulfilled.

Carol




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Mar 19 22:05:29 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 22:05:29 -0000
Subject: Why didn't  Lily have to die?
In-Reply-To: <c3ehff+lbt9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3fqr9+96gp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93423

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatelderone" 
<greatelderone at y...> wrote:
, why does a ruthless Dark Lord actually show an ounce of 
> mercy to Lily who he considers a mudblood according to his 
ideology  and who probably defied him thrice according to the 
terms of the  prophecy. I mean he could just have systemically 
slaughtered the  whole potter family. Why did he actually try and 
make an effort in  having her stand aside? It's so not like him 
imo.<<

A popular theory has been that she was wanted for some other 
purpose, perhaps as a reward for a faithful follower or for 
Voldemort himself (this is known on the list as Too Ewww to be 
True.) Since Voldemort only needed to eliminate one of  the 
James/Lily pair to make sure that they never had another child, 
this is a possibility.

Pippin




From gbannister10 at aol.com  Fri Mar 19 22:18:55 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 22:18:55 -0000
Subject: Unlocking the Hidden Pattern
In-Reply-To: <Sea2-F22Z6nuHWkDCFM00003018@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <c3frkf+9sun@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93424

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathy King" <kking0731 at h...> 
wrote:

Hathy:
> Absolutely loved your analogies of the books mirroring each other! 
Of course 
> it isn't absolute, nothing is with Jkr's works, but defiantly 
close. Jkr's 
> twist within a twist is nothing short of brilliant. But I also feel 
that 
> what you have written has quite a bit of merit and most defiantly 
needed to 
> be complimented.
> After reading what you had written so far, I started to doodle and 
made a 
> hexagon figure connecting each book to its mirror like image. What 
I saw 
> when I was done was a spider web, with book seven being in the 
middle. I 
> thought how interesting that Jkr said that we would be seeing Ron's 
not so 
> favorite friend again.
> 
> Keep up the Great Work!

Geoff:
The only problem is that you haven't got Book 6 to set up the third 
set of parallels... and if you're not careful, you'll be looking for 
details which could set up a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Thoughts written from a foreign country... wWles!

:-)




From mad_maxime at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 19 13:48:12 2004
From: mad_maxime at hotmail.com (mad_maxime)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:48:12 -0000
Subject: Why didn't  Lily have to die?
In-Reply-To: <c3ehff+lbt9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3etms+b4jv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93425

greatelderone wrote:
> Just out of curiosity, but why needn't Lily have died on the night 
> when Voldemort attacks the Potter residence. Voldemort himself 
> mentions it first in PS/SS and then later in POA we hear him tell 
> Lily to stand aside. Seeing how he killed James, a pureblood though
> a traitor, why does a ruthless Dark Lord actually show an ounce of 
> mercy to Lily who he considers a mudblood according to his ideology 
> and who probably defied him thrice according to the terms of the 
> prophecy. I mean he could just have systemically slaughtered the 
> whole potter family. Why did he actually try and make an effort in 
> having her stand aside? It's so not like him imo.

Max:

I personally think too much has been made out of Voldemort asking Lily
to stand aside.  I believe he came to Godric's Hollow for one reason -
to kill Harry.  He killed James because he saw him as a possible
threat to his mission. However, in his arrogance ("silly girl"), I
don't believe he saw Lily as a threat at all.

When he entered the room, I think he was simply focused on killing
Harry as quickly as possible.  Whether or not he was planning on
killing Lily afterward is up for grabs.

I'm not saying he wouldn't have wanted to kill James and Lily anyway
as they were aurors and his adversaries.  I just believe on that
particular night, fueled by his knowledge of the Prophecy, he was
mono-focused on killing Harry.





From imontero at iname.com  Fri Mar 19 17:17:20 2004
From: imontero at iname.com (lunamk03)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 17:17:20 -0000
Subject: Snape's job
Message-ID: <c3f9v0+o169@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93426

I just had an idea, probably someone already posted something 
similar before. Here I go, what if Snape (the sound of SSSSnape is
almost sssssnake-like) didn't need to get to Voldi "in person" in 
order to do his job. What if he could be able to enter into the mind 
of Nagini or someone else to get information. What if he transformed 
into someone or something else? Any ideas?
> 
> Lunamk






From pt4ever at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 19 17:24:52 2004
From: pt4ever at yahoo.com (JoAnna)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 17:24:52 -0000
Subject: All Things Green II
In-Reply-To: <c37fbo+hfet@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3fad4+b484@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93427

*sigh*  Whoops, ignore my last post; all of my references had 
already been used.  Here are a few more for Ravenclaw:

All quotes are from the U.S. edition.

Chapter 30, Grawp: "The song was growing louder, but it was issuing 
not from a crowd of green-and-silver clad Slytherins, but from a 
mass of red and gold moving slowly toward the castle, which was 
bearing a solitary figure upon its many shoulders..." (page 702)

Chapter 31, O.W.L.S.:  "The castle grounds were gleaming n the 
sunlight as though freshly painted; the cloudless sky smiled at 
itself in the smoothly sparkling lake, the satin-green lawns rippled 
occasionally in a gentle breeze: June had arrived, but to the fith 
years this mean only one thing:  Their O.W.L.s were upon them at 
last." (page 706)

Chapter 31, O.W.L.S.:  "Trembling, she left the chamber with Anthony 
Goldstein, Gregory Goyle, and Daphne Greengrass." (page 712-713)


JoAnna




From pt4ever at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 19 16:31:13 2004
From: pt4ever at yahoo.com (JoAnna)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 16:31:13 -0000
Subject: All Things Green II
In-Reply-To: <c3ev3o+edp5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3f78h+djvc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93428

Chapter 23, Christmas in the Closed Ward:

"The curtains had been drawn back from the two beds at the end of 
the ward and two visitors were walking back sown the aisle between 
the beds:  a formidable-looking old witch wearing a long green 
dress, a moth-eaten fox fur, and a pointed hat decorated with what 
was unmistakably a stuffed vulture and, trailing behind her looking 
thoroughly depressed - Neville." (page 512)

Chapter 23, Christmas in the Closed Ward:

"'Well, we'd better get back,' sighed Mrs. Longbottom, drawing on  
long green gloves, 'Very nice to have met you all.'"  (page 515)

Chapter 27, The Centaur and the Sneak:

"The classroom floor had become springily mossy and trees were 
growing out of it; their leafy branches fanned across the ceiling 
and windows, so that the room was full of slanting shafts of soft, 
dappled, green light." (page 600)

JoAnna the Ravenclaw :)





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Fri Mar 19 22:31:05 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 22:31:05 -0000
Subject: Regulus and Snape?
In-Reply-To: <c3fq9s+khd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3fsb9+noai@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93429

 Lynnette wrote:
> I know JKR said Regulus isn't saying much because he is dead, BUT, 
> did anyone actually SEE his dead body? Did someone just tell 
Sirius 
> his brother had been murdered? What if Snape was the one Voldemort 
> had given the assignment of killing Regulus to?  

Potioncat:
Now there are 3 of us who think Stubby... er Regulus is alive...you, 
me and Luna. I really do think JKR's comment was silly enough to 
have 
something hid in it.
Potioncat





From gbannister10 at aol.com  Fri Mar 19 22:34:44 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 22:34:44 -0000
Subject: Harry's strongest weapon
In-Reply-To: <20040319144530.778561EC7A1@front.interia.pl>
Message-ID: <c3fsi4+2kib@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93430

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, bufo_viridis at i... wrote:

Viridis:
> 
> P.S. Can somebody tell me (can be off-list) where this ridiculous 
but very funny "Lord Thingy" comes from?
> 

Geoff:
Sadly, your canon-addict cannot give you complete chapter and verse 
because I am in Cardiff over the weekend and my HP books are 105 
miles away (by road - 25 in a direct line).

At the beginning of the last chapter of OOTP, a front page report 
from the Sunday Prophet is quoted. In it, Fudge refers to Voldemort 
as "Lord Thingy".

BTW and OT, nice to see you are an "Alice in Wonderland" fan....




From tipgardner at netscape.net  Fri Mar 19 21:44:56 2004
From: tipgardner at netscape.net (tipgardner)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 21:44:56 -0000
Subject: The Podmore Connection--Percy as DD's Spy
In-Reply-To: <c3fg8r+f6qk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3fpko+45q7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93431

Susan wrote:
>  However...the use of the words "I'm  AFRAID so" [emph. added] 
> makes me think JKR is saying Percy was  behaving badly because he 
> did truly turn bad; there seems to be  disappointment or disapproval 
> in her choice of words.<

Tip replies:
However, Percy doesn't have to have turned bad.  As Sirius points out 
in OotP, the world is not divided into Death Eaters and good guys (or 
nice people).  Percy may truly believe in the good of what he is 
doing and not see the pain and problems he is causing by letting laws 
and rules over compensate for things and thus overshadow love, 
compassion and true justince.

Tip






From severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Mar 19 22:39:08 2004
From: severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk (severelysigune)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 22:39:08 -0000
Subject: Snape, trying very hard not to smile? Or is he just allergic to cats?
In-Reply-To: <c3fgvl+10qmb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3fsqc+9lim@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93432

Berit wrote:
<massive snipping of interesting stuff and a quote about Dumbledore 
poking Mrs Norris>
<< Why does Snape seem to find the situation amusing? Does Rowling 
want us to think he might be a baddie after all, excited about what 
has just happened? Or is this a rare moment of Snape thinking 
something's funny? Is it possible he's just trying not to smile at 
the strange sight of Dumbledore's long crooked nose buried in Mrs 
Norris's fur? Does Snape even possess that kind of humour? Anyone out 
there who has delved deeply into the psychological make-up of our 
Snape and can give a satisfactory explanation as to what 
Snape's "most peculiar expression" is all about?>>

Sigune:
Heh - I can't believe I missed that bit about the curious expression 
twice! Thanks Berit, a delightful remark you make there.

It's a bit tricky because I have not managed to find any obvious 
canon support, but I have always thought Snape DOES possess 'that 
kind of humour'. Although he seems to be someone who never laughs (or 
at least not in public), he does say things that are, at least to me, 
outrageously funny. Well, that probably says a lot about me, too :). 
I guess I am thinking of things like 'I don't see any difference' 
and 'If Longbottom suffocates it will mean a lot of tedious paperwork 
and I am afraid I shall have to mention it on your reference if ever 
you apply for a job'. I am always amazed at the fact that he manages 
to keep a straight face when making that kind of remarks... 
Yes, I think he must have some sense of humour - else he wouldn't 
have survived fourteen years of collaborating with Dumbledore. And 
sarcasm is a form of humour too, isn't it?
 
<<And just a little P.S: "Thankfully Snape sneezed at almost exactly 
the moment Ron swore." (CoS p. 192 UK Ed)
Hard to believe, isn't it, that even our mysterious Potion Master who 
has made self-control an art-form are subject to mundane bodily 
reactions like sneezing... Makes him more human, doesn't it? :-))>>

Sigune:
LOL!! Goody, Snape sneezes and we start asking ourselves 
questions... :) Really, I adore this post of yours, Berit.

Yours severely (but nevertheless with a sense of humour),

Sigune





From jenjar2001 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 19 22:36:33 2004
From: jenjar2001 at yahoo.com (jenjar2001)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 22:36:33 -0000
Subject: Voldemort *inside* Harry's head (mind)? (Was: Re: Wanting or presenting: Was: Snape's reaction to Harry in Slytherin)
In-Reply-To: <002a01c40da5$d71f1580$0302a8c0@henrike>
Message-ID: <c3fslh+kg0h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93433

> 
>   >   SnapesRaven:
>   This little voice bothered me throughout the whole book. <snip>
it doesn't reassure him but rather makes him insecure, <snip>   I 
thought the voice might be Voldemort's, since he now shares Harry's 
blood and they had a connection through the scar all zhe time. I just 
didn't think of Voldemort using such subtle means, 
carefulle 'planting' bad feelings in Harry in order to make him turn 
from everyone he trusted thus far. 
>   Opinions, anyone?


Jenjar replies

The voice has perplexed me too.  I was actually noticing it as a 
voice of reason and discretion.  For example in OoP page 730
"He wheeled around and strode blindly from the hospital wing into the 
teeming corridor where he stood, buffeted by the crowd, the panic 
expanding inside him like poison gas so that his head swam and he 
could not think what to do...  Ron and Hermione, said a voice in his 
head." 

It really seems the voice was trying to help him.  I can't see V 
wanting Harry to bring friends with him, just makes it harder for V 
and co to catch him.  

SnapesRaven after reading your post and looking further in Canon I 
found an instance of an unhelpful voice on page 778 "Harry was 
listening hard for the slightest sound of movement, but Sirius might 
be gagged now, or else unconscious...or, said an unbidden voice 
inside his head, he might already by dead....I'd have felt it, he 
told himself, his heart now hammering against his Adam's apple.  I'd 
already know..."

This confuses me even more.  The *unbidden* voice clearly isn't 
helping Harry but I don't think it's Lord Voldemort because V wants 
Harry to try to find Sirius and if Harry thought he was dead, he 
might not continue looking for him.  Then again as I read further on 
the page they have already come to the spot V wanted them to get to 
so maybe the voice is just trying to stir him up, make him more 
rash.  It's clear it's not Harry's own voice because he argues with 
it.  

I just can't figure it out.  I have so many questions- Where are 
these voices coming from?  Are they all the same voice?  What is the 
voice or voices purpose?  

When I was thinking the voice was good I thought maybe it was Lily, 
that somehow as a result of her sacrifice she was able to continue to 
try and protect him by planting advice in his head.  It sure would be 
nice if Harry had some kind of connection to family still.  But there 
is definitely a *bad* voice that taunts or misleads him.  

Can anyone else find other instances of the voice?  Any ideas on what 
it is?

Really hoping someone else has some more thoughts on this one...





From ellyn337 at earthlink.net  Fri Mar 19 03:32:24 2004
From: ellyn337 at earthlink.net (mclellyn)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 03:32:24 -0000
Subject: Snape's reaction to Harry in Slytherin (was : Re: Changing Houses)
In-Reply-To: <c3cc2m+suom@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3dpk8+rpho@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93434

> > Berit:
> > Sadly I don't have my books with me at the time, but I'm 
> > almost sure Snape HAS learned that the Hat wanted to put 
> > Harry in Slytherin. In Harry's Occlumency lessons, the 
> > first time (?) Snape "legilimens" Harry (and if my memory 
> > is not playig me a trick), one of the memories racing through 
> > Harry's head when Snape "wathces" them, are the Sorting 
> > hat telling Harry he would have done well in Slytherin... 
> 
> Geoff:
> Oh yes, you're quite right. I almost missed it having just trawled 
> through the Occlumency bits about three times.....
> <snip book quote>


Gadfly McLellyn:
In reading this post I couldn't help but imagine that when Snape was 
sorted that the Sorting hat told him that he would do well in 
Gryffindor, but do to his mudblood bias at the time (his remarks to 
Lily we learned about in the pensieve) that maybe he asked to be put 
in Slytherin.  Especially after the lessons where Snape and Harry 
both learn to what degree the other had been bullied similarly when 
they were children.  I couldn't help but think maybe they had similar 
but opposite experiences under the sorting hat.  Snape certainly is 
showing great bravery by working for the Order who love mudbloods 
while he is the Head of Slytherin House.  

Gadfly McLellyn




From jenjar2001 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 19 22:47:55 2004
From: jenjar2001 at yahoo.com (jenjar2001)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 22:47:55 -0000
Subject: What was that thestral up to?
In-Reply-To: <c3enp5+lgj6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3ftar+5b33@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93435

In OoP page 282, "A great, reptilian winged horse, just like the ones 
pulling the Hogwarts carriages, with leathery black wings spread wide 
like a pterodactyl's rose up out of the tress like a grotesque, giant 
bird.  It soared in a great circle and then plunged once more into 
the trees.  The whole thing had happened so quickly Harry could 
hardly believe what he had seen, except that his heart was hammering 
madly."

Then using one of her usual methods, JKR distracts us with Cho's 
entrance followed by the dungbomb epside with Filch.  For this 
reason, I think this thestral moment was significant and more than 
just a way to convince Harry thestrals were real.  Hagrid took care 
of that later anyway.  So, what was this thestral up to?  Why would 
JKR show us this scene and then distract us from it?  It doesn't seem 
to connect to anything else.  I think we will here more about this in 
the next books but in the meantime...any ideas?

Jenjar





From peckham at cyberramp.net  Fri Mar 19 23:08:32 2004
From: peckham at cyberramp.net (luna_loco)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 23:08:32 -0000
Subject: All Things Green II
In-Reply-To: <c37fbo+hfet@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3fuhg+5vu8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93436

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Dicentra spectabilis"
<dicentra at x> wrote:
> It's the wearin' of the gr-- ... er ... the *finding* of the green.  
> 
> Contest ends on 20 Mar 2004 at 00:00 GMT.  The results will be posted
> here.

With less than an hour left, time to start cleaning out my remaining
list of references:

Ch 3, The Advance Guard
Page 55 (US)
The cool air rushed through his hair as the neat square gardens of
Privet Drive fell away, shrinking into a patchwork of dark greens and
blacks, and every thought of the Ministry hearing was swept from his
mind as though the rush of air had blown it out of his head.

Ch 19, The Lion and the Serpent
Page 401 (US)
When Slytherins, some of them seventh years and considerably larger
than he was, muttered as they passed in the corridors, "Got your bed
booked in the hospital wing, Weasley?" he did not laugh, but turned a
delicate shade of green.

Ch 19, The Lion and the Serpent
Page 411 (US)
In a metter of seconds, Malfoy was streaking out of the sky on Harry's
left, a green-and-silver blur lying flat on his broom....

Allen, Ravenclaw




From peckham at cyberramp.net  Fri Mar 19 23:09:34 2004
From: peckham at cyberramp.net (luna_loco)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 23:09:34 -0000
Subject: All Things Green II
In-Reply-To: <c37fbo+hfet@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3fuje+1kub@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93437

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Dicentra spectabilis"
<dicentra at x> wrote:
> It's the wearin' of the gr-- ... er ... the *finding* of the green.  

Ch 20, Hagrid's Tale
Page 424 (US)
"Yeah, tha's right," said Hagrid, and a softened expression appeared
on the few inched of face that were not obscured by beard or green steak.

Ch 36, The Only One He Ever Feared
Page 814 (US)
Another jet of green light flew from behind the silver sheild.

Ch 36, The Only One He Ever Feared
Page 815 (US)
But even as he shouted, one more jet of green light had flown at
Dumbledore from Voldemort's wand and the snake had struck ---

Allen, Ravenclaw




From peckham at cyberramp.net  Fri Mar 19 23:11:26 2004
From: peckham at cyberramp.net (luna_loco)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 23:11:26 -0000
Subject: All Things Green II
In-Reply-To: <c37fbo+hfet@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3fumu+829r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93438

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Dicentra spectabilis"
<dicentra at x> wrote:
> It's the wearin' of the gr-- ... er ... the *finding* of the green.  
Now for the last of my stash o' green...

Ch 36, The Only One He Ever Feared
Page 816 (US)
The floor was reflecting emerald-green flames that had burst into life
in all the fireplaces along one wall, and a stream of witches and
wizards was emerging from them.

Ch 22, St. Mungo's Hospital for Magical Maladies and Injuries
Page 487 (US)
More witches and wizards in lime-green robes walked in and out of the
doors they passed; a foul-smeling yellow gas wafted into the
passageway as they passed one door, and every now and then they heard
distant wailing.

Ch 5, The Order of the Phoenix
Page 81 (US)
Great billowing clouds of greenish smoke obscured him in seconds.

Allen, Ravenclaw




From mad_maxime at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 19 04:34:11 2004
From: mad_maxime at hotmail.com (mad_maxime)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 04:34:11 -0000
Subject: How did Moaning Myrtle Make the Water Splash?
In-Reply-To: <c3dk75+ns4p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3dt83+dm9t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93439

> > Bobby wrote:
> >
> > Here is another trivial problem I don't understand: In COS,
> > Moaning Myrtle made a splash in her restroom when HRH were there 
> > ? but how did she move the water?
> > <snip>

> Steve responded:
> 
> To find the answer, I think we need to look beyond the book and look
> at ghosts in general; I guess you could say ghosts in the real
> world.
> 
> In typical haunting, as in haunted houses, ghost do have some
> limited ability to interact with the real/material world; rattling
> chains,slamming doors, rocking chairs moving with no one in them,
> curtains (moving objects), etc....
>  
> So, ghosts can do things in the material world to make there 
> presents known. Usually, the more tramatic a ghost's death was and 
> the more tormented their afterlife, the more they cause physical
> telekinesis and manifestations.
> <snip>

Max:

When I read this question, I immediately thought of the scene between
'Subway Man' and Patrick Swayze in the movie 'Ghost'. If you try to
move an object with your mind, you'll fail. To succeed, you need to
concentrate your emotions.

This fits right in with Steve's theory that the more tormented a soul
is, the more physical manifestations it will cause. It's hard to think
of a more tormented soul in the HP universe than Moaning Myrtle. What
with her perpetual state of mournfulness, it's a wonder she doesn't
cause even more of a racket!   





From nadinesaintamour at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 19 04:45:33 2004
From: nadinesaintamour at hotmail.com (catimini15)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 04:45:33 -0000
Subject: Uncovering the Hidden Pattern of the HP Books
In-Reply-To: <c3dg0c+ito5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3dttd+ks8g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93440

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "davewitley" 
<dfrankiswork at n...> wrote:

> (snip)
> 
> LOL!  Nadine probably *was* thinking of Iris' post, "The Seven 
> Ordeals":
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/46992
> 
> It's interesting to compare Bill's and Iris' posts, because though 
> they both set the seven tasks against the seven books, Iris takes 
> them in order, while Bill mixes them up.
> 
> This illustrates neatly the difficulties of this kind of study, and 
> why I think it's not enough merely to demonstrate a connection to 
> get wide acceptance of a theory.
> 
> David, thinking that the Book of Revelation contains a whole lot of 
> sevens...

And me (Nadine) :

Wow ! Thank you David ! You found the post I was looking for : Iris' 
message number 46992. I simply love this theory. Especially b/c if 
Iris is right, the sixth task = the potions puzzle = Snape = the 
sixth book ! Ha ! Ha ! Will the next instalment be all about our 
favorite Potion Master ? I wonder...
Also, I was smiling, by myself, in front of my computer, because it 
is the first time one of my post is actually answered.

Merci beaucoup !

Nadine (Catimini15)







From lethafaraday at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 19 19:00:11 2004
From: lethafaraday at yahoo.com (Ava Gordon)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 19:00:11 -0000
Subject: Is Dumbledore a vampire?
In-Reply-To: <c3dh75+tqev@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3ffvr+nv75@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93441

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "philospeed" <philospeed at y...> 
wrote:
> Everyone seems to think that Snape is a vampire, but I don't think 
> that's so.  If anyone at Hogwarts is a vampire, or has some vampire 
> blood in them, I think it's Dumbledore.  

I'd go a step beyond that.  The World is a Vampire! The wizarding
world that is! Only the very top muckamucks know it, too. They've
Astrodomed the sky & enchanted it to look like the real thing. And
there's no eclectrcicity allowed, forcing everyone to use candles,
which have been doped to emit anti-bloodlust potion in inhalation
form as they burn.

The clues are all there, for those with eyes to see them!

"Ava"




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 19 23:14:15 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 23:14:15 -0000
Subject: The Podmore Connection--Percy as DD's Spy
In-Reply-To: <c3fbji+qnjv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3fus7+ngpk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93442

Susan:
<snip> if I'm understanding your argument about Percy--that in fact he 
> *hasn't* left the Good Guys but is working for DD--then what do we
do w/ this comment from the World Book Day chat?
> 
> Echo: Was Percy acting entirely of his own accord in Order of the 
> Phoenix? 
> JK Rowling replies -> I'm afraid so. 
> 
> Will your theory still fit?  I suppose this questioner was trying to 
> get at whether Percy was acting under the Imperius Curse...and JKR's 
> answer would mean he is *not*.  So I suppose one could argue that if 
> Percy is SecretOrderMember!Percy, it *would* fit JKR's answer that he 
> was acting of his own accord.  However...the use of the words "I'm 
> AFRAID so" [emph. added] makes me think JKR is saying Percy was 
> behaving badly because he did truly turn bad; there seems to be 
> disappointment or disapproval in her choice of words.
> 
> Or is she just toying with us?  ;-)

Carol:
I agree that JKR's comment indicates that Percy is not under an
Imperius Curse; he's clearly acting on his own volition, but I'm not
sure that we need to go so far as to say that he's gone bad. Being all
for the MoM vs. Harry and Dumbledore doesn't necessarily tie him in
with LV and the Death Eaters (his beloved Mr. Crouch hated them,
remember). I think JKR's "I'm afraid so" would be equally applicable
to a seriously mistaken Percy, who has launched himself onto a course
of action that is now beyond his control, as to a Percy who has gone
bad (actively and deliberately choosing evil over good). I think he
still loves his family but is too proud, too willfully blind--to see
the error of his ways, much less to apologize. He's been hurt by his
family's failure to appreciate what he sees as his accomplishments, so
just like Hermione with Rita Skeeter, he's hurting them in return by
refusing to speak to his father and returning his Christmas sweater
(jumper). Also, he's not much more than a boy--only nineteen in OoP.
He thinks he's all grown up but he isn't. Part of becoming an adult is
learning from our mistakes, and IMO, he isn't there yet.

My reading of the letter to Ron is that Percy still cares about his
little brother (as he showed after the second task in GoF) and wants
to "help" him by advising him to reject the "dangerous" Harry Potter.
Remember how his mother was willing to revise her view of Hermione
based on Rita Skeeter's Witch Weekly article? Percy is constantly
exposed to Fudge's revised view of Harry, presumably both at work and
in the Daily Prophet, and that deluge of negative publicity has also
reshaped Percy's view of his brother's friend as mad, bad, and
dangerous to know. But IMO it's also what Percy *wants* to
think--almost what he *has* to think in order to maintain his
self-respect in the face of his family's ostracism. But Fudge is
heading for a fall and Percy will almost certainly go down with him.
Let's hope that being disgraced is all it takes to make him to see the
error of his ways. If not, we may really see an evil Percy. I hope
not, for the Weasley family's sake.

Carol, who still has sympathy for Percy and thinks he will die
redeemed in Book 7--or maybe Book 6 as the war intensifies and the
deaths start to multiply




From enigma_only at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 19 19:48:55 2004
From: enigma_only at hotmail.com (fiondavhar)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 19:48:55 -0000
Subject: Voldemort *inside* Harry's head (mind)? (Was: Re: Wanting or presenting: Was: Snape's reaction to Harry in Slytherin)
In-Reply-To: <002a01c40da5$d71f1580$0302a8c0@henrike>
Message-ID: <c3fir7+tk41@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93443

>   Berit replies:
> 
>   I'm inclined to agree with you. But, there is also Harry's own 
>   interpretation of the Hat's words to consider:
> 
>   Quote:"'But I'm a Gryffindor,' Harry thought. 'The Sorting Hat 
>   wouldn't have put me in here if I had Slytherin blood...'
>   'Ah,' said a nasty little voice in his brain, 'But the Sorting hat 
>   *wanted* (italics in the book) to put you in Slytherin, don't you 
>   remember?'" (CoS p. 147 UK Ed)
> 
>   SnapesRaven:

>   This little voice bothered me throughout the whole book. It keeps 
reappearing in moments of doubt and inner battle for Harry, and it 
doesn't reassure him but rather makes him insecure...

(snipped) 

>   I thought the voice might be Voldemort's, since he now shares 
Harry's blood and they had a connection through the scar all zhe 
time. I just didn't think of Voldemort using such subtle means, 
carefulle 'planting' bad feelings in Harry in order to make him turn 
from everyone he trusted thus far. 


Bonny writes:

   What I find very interesting (and this ties in closley with the 
subject of your post) is that, the night of the sorting, Harry has a 
nightmare in which Quirrels turban is on his head, telling him to 
transfer to slytherin.
  
   'Perhaps Harry had eaten a bit to much, because he had a very 
strange dream. He wa wearing Professor Quirrel's turban, which kept 
talking to him, telling him he must transfer to Slytherin at once, 
because it was his destiny. Harry told the turban he didn't want to 
be in Slytherin; it got heavier and heavier; he tried to pull it off 
but it tightened painfully - and there was Malfoy, laughing at him as 
he struggled with it - then Malfoy turned into the hook-nosed 
teacher, snape, whose laugh became high and cold - there was a burst 
of green light and Harry woke, sweating and shaking. 

  He rolled over and fell asleep again, and when he woke next day, he 
didn't remember the dream at all.'

                           PS/SS, Canadian edition, pg 97
  
  This is obviously the very first evidence of a mental link between 
Harry and Voldemort being used to Voldemorts advantage. I am not sure 
that I agree with your idea that the little voice Harry hears 
throughout the series is Voldemort, as we all have those thoughts 
that should reassure us but can't, but I think it is interesting that 
Voldemort must have known he had a way to penetrate and influence 
Harry's mind (when he is near, at any rate) from the very beginning. 
The fact that Harry forgets about the experience shows us that his 
mind is much stronger than Vapourmorts, and can not be so easily 
influenced; but the fact that JKR wrote it in at all should awaken us 
to some questions.

  Obviously, it is foreshadowing that Quirrell is possessed by 
Voldemort. However, I have always wondered why Voldemort wanted Harry 
in Slytherin. Does he think that he can manipulate Harry into 
following him instead of killing him? Why is being in Slytherin 
HArrys "destiny"? And, if it is somehow Harry's destiny, maybe he is 
the one to switch houses (I don't really believe it is but it can be 
considered, there has certainly been a stress on that in the books). 

  I think that the part of the dream that follows where Harry is 
struggling to take the turban off is probably more a collection of 
sub-concious images that are prompted by Harry's unwitting encounter 
with vapourmort than anything else, but those associations might have 
some relevance.

  I know this has been rather a disorganized post, but if anyone has 
any thoughts to lend or to elaborate with, I'd be happy to hear them.
   
    Bonny





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 19 23:23:05 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 23:23:05 -0000
Subject: LV showing mercy to Lily?
In-Reply-To: <20040319175132.85109.qmail@web14104.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c3fvcp+fksn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93444

> greatelderone: 
> why does a ruthless Dark Lord actually show an ounce
> of mercy to Lily 
> 
> Tyler:
> I don't think it was about mercy.  IMO,  LV gets off
> on the idea of having people cower before him;  he
> enjoys seeing fear in his victims.  He enjoys the
> feeling of dominance.  I think he warned Lily to stand
> aside because he expected her to comply out of fear. 
> When she didn't,  I think he decided to kill her as a
> way to try and maintain in his mind this belief that
> he can intimidate anyone.


Lily was screaming at him to kill her, not Harry. I think he realized
that he had to kill her because she wasn't going to move otherwise. Or
he chose to kill her out of annoyance rather than elbowing her aside.
(As I said before, she presented an obstacle, not a threat, and so he
didn't "have" to kill her as he did the presumably armed and fighting
James.) What he didn't realize was that her self-sacrifice activated
the "old magic" (or charm) that protected Harry--so, LV to the
contrary, she did indeed have to die. Or, put another way, she didn't
have to die--unless she wanted Harry to live. And, of course, she did.

Carol




From pt4ever at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 19 23:12:54 2004
From: pt4ever at yahoo.com (JoAnna)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 23:12:54 -0000
Subject: Why didn't  Lily have to die?
In-Reply-To: <c3fqsq+av0o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3fupm+jl6u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93445

Carol:
<<<What *I* don't understand is how he could have thought that *any*
mother would stand aside and let him kill her baby.>>>

JoAnna:

It's because Voldemort knows absolutely nothing about love, or the
power of love.  Dumbledore knows this, as he said in OotP:

"But I knew too where Voldemort was weak... You would be protected by
an ancient magic of which he knows, which he despises, and which he
has always, therefore, underestimated -- to his cost.  I am speaking,
of course, of the fact that your mother died to save you."  (page
833-34, U.S. edition)

"There is a room in the Department of Mysteries," interrupted
Dumbledore, "that is kept locked at all times.  It contains a force
that is at once more wonderful and more terrible than death, than
human intelligence, than forces of nature.  It is also, perhaps, the
most mysterious of the many subjects for study that reside there.  It
is the power held within that room that you possess is such quantities
and which Voldemort *has not at all*."  (page 843-44, U.S. edition)
(emphasis mine)

Of course it wouldn't occur to him that Lily would die to save her
child; he does not and cannot understand what power love can wield. 
I'm convinced that the tool Harry will use to vanquish Voldemort will
be connected to his love or his capacity for love, since this is a
recurring theme in the books (especially due to the emphasis that love
is the  power that Harry has - the "power the Dark Lord knows not"
spoken of in the prophecy).  





From enigma_only at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 19 20:19:23 2004
From: enigma_only at hotmail.com (fiondavhar)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 20:19:23 -0000
Subject: Snape, trying very hard not to smile? Or is he just allergic to cats?
In-Reply-To: <c3fgvl+10qmb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3fkkb+kjf2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93446

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Berit Jakobsen" 
<belijako at o...> wrote:
 
> "The tip of Dumbledore's long, crooked nose was barely an inch from 
> Mrs Norris's fur. He was looking at her closely through his half-moon 
> spectacles, his long fingers gently prodding and poking. Professor 
> McGonagall was bent almost as close, her eyes narrowed. Snape loomed 
> behind them, half in shadow, wearing a most peculiar expression: it 
> was as though he was trying very hard not to smile. And Lockhart was 
> hovering around all of them, making suggestions." (CoS p.107-108 UK 
> Ed)
> 
> Why does Snape seem to find the situation amusing? 


Bonny writes:

I would attribute the peculiar smile to the fact that Harry has just 
been discovered in a very uncomfortable place, and is consequentially 
in a very sticky situation (for the second time that year). He was 
not at the Halloween feast, and was discovered, by the entire school, 
in front of a petrified cat and bloody writing on the wall. As you 
will see if you read on a little further, Snape uses this situation 
to attempt to strip Harry of privileges and have him off the 
Gryffindor quidditch team.  While it's possible that the strange 
expression could have some deeper meaning, it is my guess that it is 
just having Harry once again in the hot seat.

      Bonny





From enigma_only at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 19 21:23:46 2004
From: enigma_only at hotmail.com (fiondavhar)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 21:23:46 -0000
Subject: Harry as Gryffindor's Heir
Message-ID: <c3fod2+m89k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93447

Here's an idea I thought I would run by the list -

There is a fair amount of evidence that Harry might have deeper ties 
to Godric Gryffindor than simply being a member of his house. Certain 
details that JKR has included in the book seem (as is her way) to 
point to a larger truth. I think it is very possible that Harry may 
be Gryffindors heir.

  Lets start at the very beginning. 

1) Harry was born at such a time in July that his astrological sign is 
Leo, the Lion. The Symbol of Gryffindor house is a lion. 

2) The home in which Harry was living with his parents was loacted in 
Godric's Hollow, Godric being Gryffindor's first name.

3) When Harry finally discovers his wand in Diagon Alley, the wand 
shoots red and gold sparks, Gryffindors colours. (I wonder is Voldy's 
shot out green and silver?)

4) In CoS, Harry pulls Godric's sword out of the sorting hat - 
Dumbledore says only a "true" Gryffindor could have pulled that out 
of the hat. Perhaps he was referring to more than a true member of 
the house?

5) When Harry is angry (ie in OotP, at the beginning, when explaining 
to Uncle Vernon about Dudley) red and gold sparks fly from his wand.

6) Slytherin and Gryffindor (according to the sorting hat's song in 
OotP, "For were there such friends anywhere, As Slytherin and 
Gryffindor?") were supposedly great friends before having the 
disagreement over blood. Harry and Voldemort have (or had) many 
things in common, but disagree over what is right and what is wrong, 
stemming from blood - the same disagreement, only intensified. 

7) Voldemort would have percieved baby Harry as a greater threat than 
baby Neville if Harry were Gryffindors heir, as Slytherin and 
Gryffindor were the famous enemies/rivals. That would explain why he 
chose him, and it would also explain (partially) why Voldemort was so 
intent on killing James and Harry, but not so importantly Lily. I do 
think there is more to the not needing to kill Lily thing, but if 
Voldy were to kill James and Harry, the last of Gryffindor's line, 
then he needn't fear an attack of that nature in the future. 

8) Harry is the last of the Potter (also Gryddindor?) family line. 
Voldemort is the last of Slytherin's line, though he bears the last 
name Riddle. As the final two decendants of Gryffindor and Slytherin, 
it would make sense that these two be the ones to finish the battle 
started so long ago by their ancestors - that it is their destiny, if 
you will, to be the last of the lines and end the conflict. 

I am sure there is more evidence as well, but I don't have time to 
dig it out now. Any thoughts? Also, just one more thing, far fetched 
but food for thought - imagine if, somewhere along the line, Harry's 
and Voldy's family lines crossed, making Harry the heir of both 
Gryffindor AND Slytherin! hehehe far fetched, but it might make some 
sense. I know Dumbledore said that Voldemort was the last surviving 
descendant of Sly, but he has been known to keep things from Harry in 
the past if he thought they would disturb him. Prof. McGonagall also 
says that only the heir of slytherin can open the chamber of secrets. 
She does not say only a parselmouth. Also, we have never seen 
evidence of Voldemort passing power to Harry aside from the 
parselmouth. WHat if he didn't pass it to him? Then it would be 
Harry, the embodiment of the positive aspects of Slytherin and 
Gryffindor, the one-time friends, fighting Voldemort, the embodiment 
of Slytherins negative aspects. If Harry wins, the negative aspects 
are for the most part destroyed, and the friends "reunited" in peace. 
If Voldy wins, so does Slytherins negativity, and there will never be 
peace between them. 

   Well that is a long and far-fetched idea, but at least now it's 
been aired out, even if it is a little foolish.

     Bonny





From topfor at aol.com  Fri Mar 19 23:10:11 2004
From: topfor at aol.com (smtopliff)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 23:10:11 -0000
Subject: Crookshanks
Message-ID: <c3fukj+p59m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93448

I have always held the belief that Crookshanks is more than just part 
Kneazle.  I always wondered whether he was the pet of the Potters 
(Lily and James and young Harry).  I have wondered if Crookshanks was 
involved in some sort of Switching Spell the night of Voldemort's 
attack.  Simply put, I wonder if Lily or James is stuck as 
Crookshanks.  Why those thoughts?

First, our introduction to Crookshanks comes in POA when he lept onto 
the pet store counter at attempted to attack Scabbers/Pettigrew. Ron 
gave no indication that this was commonplace--such as a "not again!"  
comment, which leads me to reason that Scabbers has not usually been 
a target prior to that incident.  Hasn't been an issue in SS/PS or 
COS. How did Crookshanks know Scabbers was really Pettigrew?  He 
might have recognized him like Sirius did when he saw the photo in 
the Daily Prophet. 

Second, the shopkeeper at the pet store commented that Crookshanks 
had been there for ages...how come? (p.60 POA) Aren't Kneazles 
favorites of small children and other wizard families?  And why was 
the comment made--if you were trying to sell a cat/Kneazle would you 
make that comment?  NO! You want the buyer to think it's killing you 
to part with such a wonderful pet.  Hmmm.

Third, how come Crookshanks is hanging out with Sirius the dog in 
POA? (p.303)Harry viewed the two of them together when he was gazing 
out the window of his room-- How'd they hook up in the first place?  
Does Crookshanks--and other pets of Hogwarts students for that matter-
- make a habit of wandering the grounds at night?    At the end of 
the book, Sirius revealed that he gave Crookshanks the letter to 
deliver to the Owl Office to purchase Harry's Firebolt.  Even 
assumimg that in the WW animals can communicate on a different level 
than animals in Muggle society, this is atypical of behavior of other 
animals in the WW.  Even owls arent portrayed communicating with 
other species on the level Crookshanks and Sirius the dog did, and 
they understand where to go and what to do when given orders and 
mail.  


Still haven't resolved the "Lily and James came out of the wand in 
the graveyard" issue, but I'm working on it.


Any feedback is greatly appreciated.

smt





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 19 23:37:00 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 23:37:00 -0000
Subject: Snape, trying very hard not to smile? Or is he just allergic to cats?
In-Reply-To: <c3fgvl+10qmb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3g06s+a4gn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93449

Berit wrote:
<snip> 
> I've noticed another one of his [Snape's] expressions that is harder
to explain 
> considering the situation he's in: Mrs. Norris has just been found 
> petrified, and Dumbledore is examining the cat very closely to find 
> out what's the matter with her. Everyone is also aware of the very 
> dire message written on the wall where the cat was found: "The 
> Chamber of Secrets has been opened. Enemies of the Heir, beware." 
> (CoS p.106 UK Ed) So this is clearly a serious situation to everyone 
> present. Then, what do you make of this:
<snipped quote>
> 
> Why does Snape seem to find the situation amusing? Does Rowling want 
> us to think he might be a baddie after all, excited about what has 
> just happened? Or is this a rare moment of Snape thinking something's 
> funny? Is it possible he's just trying not to smile at the strange 
> sight of Dumbledore's long crooked nose buried in Mrs Norris's fur? 
> Does Snape even possess that kind of humour? Anyone out there who
has delved deeply into the psychological make-up of our Snape and can 
> give a satisfactory explanation as to what Snape's "most peculiar 
> expression" is all about? <snip>


My impression is that Snape has a common bond with the students,
including HRH: He detests Mrs. Norris. Possibly he even dislikes Filch
himself, despite sometimes having to work with him (and have his leg
tended by him in CoS). Filch is a Squib and "has no subtlety," as
Snape would say. He believes in instruments of torture to punish
students. Snape has more imaginative methods of keeping them in line.
BTW, I loved Snape's line when Filch thinks that Peeves has stolen
Harry's golden egg: "I don't give a damn about that wretched
poltergeist!" I don't think he gives a damn about that wretched cat,
either.

Carol




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 19 23:38:00 2004
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 23:38:00 -0000
Subject: Vague Thoughts on Apparation
Message-ID: <c3g08o+f8sh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93450

I'm confused about apparation and how the students learn it. Curious
about how other see the process.

For illustration, I will use the example of a driver's license in the
USA. For the moment, let's assume that the legal age to drive is 16.
In the US, at age 15 (fifteen), you can get a Learning Permit that
allows you to take driver's training classes, and to drive while
accompanied by an adult licensed driver. Then when you turn 16, you
are ready to take your driving test, and assuming you pass, get a full
unrestricted driver's license.

Shifting the model to the Wizard World, I have always assumed that in
6th year at Hogwarts, the students would be taught how to apparate at
school. Although I don't think it will be a regular full-time, every
week, all year class. Perhaps just an hour or two every a couple times
a week at night for a month, or something like that.

Some how, there have to be classes and there has to be opportunities
for students to learn and try apparating before they take the test for
their license.

True it is illegal for student to apparate before they are 'of
age'(17), but it's also illegal for people to drive (in my example)
before they are of the proper age, but none the less the law allows
for a learning process.

Also, note that for students ALL magic is illegal since they are not
of age, however, in the supervised learning enviroment of school they
are allowed to perform magic. I can't see why Apparation would be any
different.

Back to the driving analogy, I am vaguely aware the Britain does not
use the same model as the USA. Unless I am mistaken, in Britian, you
must reach full legal driving age before you can get your learing
permit. That could throw my suggested model off, but none the less, if
we use all magic as an example, it seems there would be an exception
made while the students learn to apparate at school.

It seems that both Percy and the Twins took there Apparation test at
the beginning of the summer holiday, which implies to me that they
learned the process during the previous school year.

So, does this sound reasonable to everyone, or am I way off base?

Just wondering.

bboy_mn







From jenjar2001 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 19 23:33:17 2004
From: jenjar2001 at yahoo.com (jenjar2001)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 23:33:17 -0000
Subject: The Podmore Connection--Percy as DD's Spy
In-Reply-To: <c3fus7+ngpk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3fvvt+7bgf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93451


> Carol:
> But Fudge is heading for a fall and Percy will almost certainly go 
down with him. Let's hope that being disgraced is all it takes to 
make him to see the error of his ways. If not, we may really see an 
evil Percy. I hope not, for the Weasley family's sake.
> 
> Carol, who still has sympathy for Percy and thinks he will die
> redeemed in Book 7--or maybe Book 6 as the war intensifies and the
> deaths start to multiply

Jenjar replies:

Carol, I agree with your take on Percy's motivation and 
misguidedness.  Maybe as you suggest, he will die redeemed in Book 7 
but, I think before that happens, his blindness and MOM ambition will 
lead to the death of one of his family members ( I think it will be 
Arthur) and then he will finally see the truth for what it is, 
recognize his awful miscalculations and join Dumbledore and Harry in 
all out war against V and anyone (like the MOM) who dares stand in 
there way.  I've suggested this before but never got a response.  I'm 
curious if anyone else agrees or thinks this idea is flawed...







From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 19 23:59:43 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 23:59:43 -0000
Subject: Fawkes and his feathers
In-Reply-To: <c3fqna+enq0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3g1hf+tunr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93452

Eustace_Scrubb: 
<snip> Also, how did Tom Riddle come to be chosen by a wand containing
one of those feathers?  (I'm assuming he bought it when he was still
Tom, as I can't quite imagine Voldemort strolling into Ollivanders's and
purchasing a wand in the usual way.  "Yew wood, phoenix feather core,
12 inches...excellent for evil overlord work!") <snip>

Carol:
I imagine a scene very much like the one that occurred with Harry.
Little Tom, an eleven-year-old half-blood orphan raised by Muggles 
enters Ollivander's shop (perhaps accompanied by Ogg, the gamekeeper,
or some other Hogwarts representative). Ollivander senses at once that
this boy has extraordinary powers, and after some preliminary trials
with other wands to test his theory, he hands Tom a rare treasure, the
most powerful wand in his shop, which lies on a special shelf next to
its "brother"--also destined, Ollivander knows, for a very powerful
wizard, but not this wizard. Tom takes the wand, gives it a good
swish, and it sends out green and silver sparks (as Harry's sent out
red and gold ones). I certainly don't think it was designed for "evil
overlord work," especially given its phoenix feather core, but maybe
the yew wood (as opposed to the holly) gave it a Slytherin affinity so
that it was right for Tom--a little boy with great potential who had
not yet chosen evil over good.

I have no canon to support any of this. It's just the way I see the
scene in my own mind.

Carol, who does not believe that Ollivander is evil or that he would
design a wand whose purpose was to wreak havoc with the WW




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 20 00:52:52 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 00:52:52 -0000
Subject: Voldemort *inside* Harry's head (mind)? (Was: Re: Wanting or presenting: Was: Sn
In-Reply-To: <c3fir7+tk41@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3g4l4+abm5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93453

> Bonny writes:
> 
>    What I find very interesting (and this ties in closley with the 
> subject of your post) is that, the night of the sorting, Harry has a 
> nightmare in which Quirrels turban is on his head, telling him to 
> transfer to slytherin.
>   
>    'Perhaps Harry had eaten a bit to much, because he had a very 
> strange dream. He wa wearing Professor Quirrel's turban, which kept 
> talking to him, telling him he must transfer to Slytherin at once, 
> because it was his destiny. Harry told the turban he didn't want to 
> be in Slytherin; it got heavier and heavier; he tried to pull it off 
> but it tightened painfully - and there was Malfoy, laughing at him as 
> he struggled with it - then Malfoy turned into the hook-nosed 
> teacher, snape, whose laugh became high and cold - there was a burst 
> of green light and Harry woke, sweating and shaking. 
> 
>   He rolled over and fell asleep again, and when he woke next day, he 
> didn't remember the dream at all.'
> 
>                            PS/SS, Canadian edition, pg 97
>   
>   This is obviously the very first evidence of a mental link between 
> Harry and Voldemort being used to Voldemorts advantage. <snip> 
> The fact that Harry forgets about the experience shows us that his 
> mind is much stronger than Vapourmorts, and can not be so easily 
> influenced; but the fact that JKR wrote it in at all should awaken us 
> to some questions.
> 
>   Obviously, it is foreshadowing that Quirrell is possessed by 
> Voldemort. However, I have always wondered why Voldemort wanted Harry 
> in Slytherin. Does he think that he can manipulate Harry into 
> following him instead of killing him? Why is being in Slytherin 
> HArrys "destiny"? And, if it is somehow Harry's destiny, maybe he is 
> the one to switch houses (I don't really believe it is but it can be 
> considered, there has certainly been a stress on that in the books). 
> 
>   I think that the part of the dream that follows where Harry is 
> struggling to take the turban off is probably more a collection of 
> sub-concious images that are prompted by Harry's unwitting encounter 
> with vapourmort than anything else, but those associations might have 
> some relevance. <snip>

Carol:
Since at this point, we have only one instance of the scar hurting and
Harry is just starting to hear the high, cold laugh and associate it
with Voldemort, I don't think this extremely confused dream was sent
to Harry by Voldemort at all. In fact, LV is still essentially
powerless and probably doesn't yet realize that Harry is connected to
him through the scar. His efforts are all on getting Quirrell to steal
the philosopher's stone (and thwart Snape's and Harry's efforts to
prevent him).

The later dreams (which start in GoF) are either actual events or a
manufactured event (the capture and torture of Sirius) that LV plants
there carefully and deliberately for a specific purpose. I think the
SS/PS dream, in contrast, is an ordinary dream that any
eleven-year-old might have under such circumstances. The turban (which
Harry senses is significant and ominous) gets mixed up in his mind
with the Sorting Hat (and his great fear that he really belongs in
Slytherin); the bullying Draco and sarcastic Snape (both of whom seem
evil to Harry and both of whom are associated with the dreaded
Slytherin) get mixed up with the genuinely evil LV, of whom Harry as
yet can form no mental picture--only the high, cold laugh and the
bright green light, which are all that he remembers from the night his
parents were murdered.

Harry forgets the dream (an odd instance of JKR slipping outside his
POV to tell us that), so its significance is clearly not for him but
for the reader, for whom it provides a mixed dose of clues and red
herrings. Clue: The turban is connected with LV. Red herring: The bad
guy, whose motive and intention Harry does not yet know, is either
Draco or Snape, or both. His subconscious mind has linked both of
them, and the whole of Slytherin House, to Voldemort.

IMO, unlike the later dreams, which are unquestionably linked to or
sent by Voldemort, this one is simply a plot device (the clue and red
herrings) and a manifestation of Harry's mental state. IOW, it's in
the book for good reasons, but it's nevertheless just a dream.

Carol




From ellyn337 at earthlink.net  Fri Mar 19 23:36:39 2004
From: ellyn337 at earthlink.net (mclellyn)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 23:36:39 -0000
Subject: Regulus and Snape?
In-Reply-To: <c3fsb9+noai@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3g067+821e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93454

 Lynnette wrote:
 I know JKR said Regulus isn't saying much because he is dead, BUT, 
 did anyone actually SEE his dead body? Did someone just tell 
 Sirius his brother had been murdered? small snip

> Potioncat:
> Now there are 3 of us who think Stubby... er Regulus is alive...you, 
> me and Luna. I really do think JKR's comment was silly enough to have 
> something hid in it.


Gadfly McLellyn:
This reminds me of Barty Crouch Jr.  Everyone thought he died, but it 
was his Mother instead.   Then his Mother's grave is empty, so there 
is canon to support people are really alive when we have been lead to 
believe they are dead.   You just can't believe everything you read.








From enigma_only at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 20 00:36:23 2004
From: enigma_only at hotmail.com (fiondavhar)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 00:36:23 -0000
Subject: Wand Wood (was Re: Fawkes and his feathers)
In-Reply-To: <c3g1hf+tunr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3g3m7+369k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93455

Carol:

 I certainly don't think it was designed for "evil
> overlord work," especially given its phoenix feather core, but maybe
> the yew wood (as opposed to the holly) gave it a Slytherin affinity 
so that it was right for Tom

Bonny: That statement got me curious as to the properties of the 
different trees, so I looked it up and this is what I found out.

Holly 
New guidance from the spirit world, a new familiar. This tree has a 
powerful link to the spirit world. A symbol of the points between 
life, death, and rebirth, on both the physical and emotional planes. 
Holly may bring on some disorientation, for you are working with the 
Otherworld. Invoke Holly for help with finding a familiar. 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The properties of Holly seem to be a mixture of 
Voldemort and Harry's experience. Obviously Voldemort has to do with 
the points between life death and rebirth; Harry is more disoriented 
emotionally, and more connected to the spirit world (so far as we 
know).

Yew 
Love. This is the longest living tree of the Ogham, some of which 
live four thousand years. From its very roots, grow several massive 
trunks, life exudes, not ending, from the Yew. This makes the Yew 
appear as a Mother, with children extending from her womb. This is 
also the only poisonous tree of the Ogham. Like love, if abused the 
poison will swell.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>"life exudes, not ending..." remind you of anyone? 
Also, the idea that, if abused through love, poison will grow fits a 
lot of the recent on-list speculation about the nature of Riddles 
birth, and his fathers rejection of he and his mother. However, Love 
is the major aspect that is focused upon in the above discription, 
and we know how central that theme is to Harry's development and 
possibly to his final defeat of Voldemort. I don't recall having 
heard of anyone else having either a Yew or a Holly wand, they seem 
rather rare.

I don't really know where to go from there, any opinions would be 
very welcome.

    Bonny





From lhuntley at fandm.edu  Sat Mar 20 01:14:41 2004
From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 20:14:41 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's shortest stay at Privet Drive - Birthday
 Party
In-Reply-To: <c3e9kn+c1pf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <F74936EC-7A0B-11D8-BC58-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 93456

Steve:
> I'm going to chime in here with one of my favorite predictions. I have
> no evidence that this will occur but it is what I want to occur.
>
> The Birthday Party Theory-
> I think Harry, Ron, and Hermione will get an invitation to Neville's
> Birthday party. Since Harry was born at the end of July, we can assume
> Neville was born at least a few days before him.

You know, I hadn't even thought of this (mostly b/c I was busy getting 
excited about *Harry* having a birthday party as . . . erm, he's never 
had one before), but I think it's an interesting thought.

> Since Harry would have to go, or at least, would want to go into the
> wizard world to buy Neville a present, he would arrange to meet Ron
> and Hermione in Diagon Alley to do some shopping. Now, on the day of
> the party, Harry would have to travel into the magic world to get to
> Neville Grandmother's house, or at least use magical mean of travel to
> get there. As long as he is already in the magical world and away from
> Privet Drive, he will just stay there and spend the rest of the
> holiday with Ron. That could mean either 12 Grimmauld Place or the
> Burrow, or both.

It's just . . . well, of all the summers Harry's spent there, and all 
the times Dumbledore has *insisted* he remain with the Dursleys for a 
certain period of time . . . do you really think he's going to let 
Harry out earlier than normal so that the kid can go *shopping*?

I think it's more likely that Something Very Bad (or at least Very 
Unusual) will happen at Privet Drive (something that directly affects 
Vernon and Petunia and reveals many juicy secrets, such as just how 
much Petunia knows about the WW).  This something will have a negative 
impact on the Blood Magic that keeps Harry safe whilst he's with the 
Dursleys, thus making it *necessary* to transfer Harry someplace more 
secure.

*Then*, perhaps, coincidentally, we will get to see a birthday party.

Laura




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 20 01:28:53 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 01:28:53 -0000
Subject: Why didn't  Lily have to die?
In-Reply-To: <c3fupm+jl6u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3g6ol+mijv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93457

> Carol:
> <<<What *I* don't understand is how he could have thought that *any*
> mother would stand aside and let him kill her baby.>>>
> 
> JoAnna:
> It's because Voldemort knows absolutely nothing about love, or the
> power of love.  <snipped quotes>
>
> Of course it wouldn't occur to him that Lily would die to save her
> child; he does not and cannot understand what power love can wield. 
> I'm convinced that the tool Harry will use to vanquish Voldemort
will be connected to his love or his capacity for love, since this is
a recurring theme in the books (especially due to the emphasis that
love is the  power that Harry has - the "power the Dark Lord knows
not" spoken of in the prophecy).


Carol:
Yes, I'm very much aware that LV can't comprehend either love or
emotion in general and I'm familiar with the quotes you cited and
their implications. As I said in the part of my post that you snipped:

"Maybe all those years as a bodiless spirit possessing snakes and rats
robbed him of any knowledge of human psychology. In his view, there's
no good or evil, only the desire for power, so maybe love and other
human emotions are beyond the scope of his understanding. Mercy also
would be beyond his comprehension. I think he was merely focusing on
his goal and what he wanted was to get her out of his way so he could
commit the murder he had come to commit."

But still, on an intellectual level, he should understand that mothers
in general will protect their babies. Even the animal mothers he must
have seen in the wild will fight for their young, if not from love
then from a natural instinct that he could interpret as something
mechanical or selfish but nevertheless undeniable real. It seems
incredibly dense to expect any mother to just step aside so he could
kill her child, or to see such a gesture as "silly." And of course I
don't expect him to comprehend that she was not only trying to save
harry; she was offering himself as a victim in his place. As I said in
another post (93444), he had no inkling that her self-sacrifice would
activate the "old magic" (or charm) that protected Harry.

I'm not absolutely convinced that love is the power that the Dark Lord
knows not, but of course I'm aware of that interpretation of the
prophecy and the unopenable door in the DoM. However, that's not the
point of my post. All I was saying is that, however devoid LV is of
love himself, however much he holds it in contempt, it's strange that
he would be so ignorant of human psychology as to expect any mother to
stand aside and let him kill her child.

Carol




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sat Mar 20 01:38:55 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 01:38:55 -0000
Subject: Snape, trying very hard not to smile? Or is he just allergic to cats?
In-Reply-To: <c3g06s+a4gn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3g7bf+gc87@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93458

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" 
<justcarol67 at y...> wrote:
> Berit wrote:
> <snip> 
> > I've noticed another one of his [Snape's] expressions that is 
harder to explain  considering the situation he's in: Mrs. Norris 
has just been found  petrified, and Dumbledore is examining the 
cat very closely to find  out what's the matter with her. Everyone is 
also aware of the very  dire message written on the wall where 
the cat was found: "The  Chamber of Secrets has been opened. 
Enemies of the Heir, beware." (CoS p.106 UK Ed) So this is 
clearly a serious situation to everyone present. Then, what do 
you make of this:
> <snipped quote>
> > 
> > Why does Snape seem to find the situation amusing? 

Carol:
> My impression is that Snape has a common bond with the 
students,including HRH: He detests Mrs. Norris. Possibly he 
even dislikes Filchhimself, despite sometimes having to work 
with him (and have his leg tended by him in CoS). <<

I agree with part of this. I think Snape's amusement is because 
he destests the cat. But the interesting thing to me is that he 
seems to be trying to hide his feelings and failing. That's not 
what you'd expect from an Occlumens. But perhaps 
schadenfreude is not a feeling he has much practice in 
concealing. Usually he's all too willing to take delight in others' 
misfortune.

It might be in deference to the gravity of the situation as Berit 
suggests, but is Snape really aware of that? Surely Snape as 
head of Slytherin is not going to be shocked by Draco's racist 
outburst--he wasn't above using the M word himself in his 
student days. Snape knows nothing about Dobby's warning 
either. 

Only Dumbledore and McGonagall have been around long 
enough to remember the original opening of the Chamber. To 
Filch and Snape surely it's just a legend and the writing on the 
wall is more likely a student prank as Filch believes. Until 
Dumbledore gives his diagnosis, it's reasonable to think that 
Mrs. Norris is merely suffering from Petrificus Totalis, a spell 
which Hermione used successfully only a few months before.

I think Snape is showing consideration for Filch's feelings, 
strange as it may seem. I see them as old friends, bound 
perhaps by   rather lowly origins and a common hatred for the 
students. I firmly believe that Snape's background isn't quite as 
lofty as it appears. His speaking style is quite a bit less flowery 
and affected when he's talking to Filch--a traditonal giveaway. 

Pippin
"An Englishman's way of speaking absolutely classifies him/
The moment he speaks he makes some other Englishman 
despise him"--My Fair Lady




From melclaros at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 20 01:46:42 2004
From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 01:46:42 -0000
Subject: Is Dumbledore a vampire?
In-Reply-To: <c3ffvr+nv75@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3g7q2+kc5m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93459

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ava Gordon" 
<lethafaraday at y...> wrote:
> They've
> Astrodomed the sky & enchanted it to look like the real thing. 


Which, of course, is why Snape and DD and all these other vamps can 
go traipsing about in "broad daylight" all the time!

Mel




From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu  Sat Mar 20 01:52:37 2004
From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 01:52:37 -0000
Subject: Vague Thoughts on Apparation
In-Reply-To: <c3g08o+f8sh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3g855+e56j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93460

 "Steve" <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
I'm confused about apparation and how the students learn it. Curious
about how other see the process.
SNIPPAGE HERE
Also, note that for students ALL magic is illegal since they are not
of age, however, in the supervised learning enviroment of school they
are allowed to perform magic. I can't see why Apparation would be any
different.
----

I think it's noteworthy that ALL Magic is *NOT* illegal for students 
out of school.  The letters from Mafalda Hopkirk (no ref, because no 
book, but I remember distinctly) stated that 'the use of spells'--
**SPELLS** is what is prohibited.  

In PoA, Harry gets that Sneakoscope for his birthday and that can 
certainly *do* magic. I reckon Harry could brew up a potion on the 
stove, don his Invisibility Cloak, and--if he were say, something 
like an animagus or a metamorphamagus--he could most likely do these 
WANDLESS (read--no spell as well) without any knowledge of the MoM.  

It's kind of in my head that Apparition is also one of these 
wandless/incantationless bits of magic that are not necesarily a 
spell.  How does the MoM enforce their regulation of it?  Just like 
driving--they don't let anyone learn it until such and such age and 
then require a license.  I think one could apparate (if they know 
about it enough) well enough without a licensing or even formal 
instruction (recall F&G asking why they couldn't Apparate to the QWC 
in GoF--they acted like they "could"; just that they were 
not "allowed"). The thing that keeps it regulated?  Prearranged and 
formalized Apparition points throughout the WW make it easy to patrol 
these areas and perhaps check for licenses and also, there's got to 
be a hefty fine on top of a Splinching/appraition accident on top of 
the discomfort.  

The two things that make me think all this--F&G comment like it was 
something they COULD do, just were not ALLOWED and Harry's early, 
spontaneous roof-"jumping".  

Just my thought..
Arya







From lhuntley at fandm.edu  Sat Mar 20 01:57:37 2004
From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 20:57:37 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's shortest stay at Privet Drive
In-Reply-To: <c3efuj+330s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <F63308FB-7A11-11D8-BC58-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 93461

Del:
> One possibility is that DD or someone of the Order comes and takes
> him somewhere, to teach him (and Ron and Hermione) a very useful
> skill : how to Apparate. Think of the number of times in OoP where
> some kind of escort had to be given to Harry to go from some place
> to another. Think of what would have happened if Harry could simply
> have Apparated to Grimmauld Place and found Sirius safe there. Think
> of how things would have turned in the DoM if the kids could simply
> have Apparated away. I don't think DD would care about the Trio not
> being of age. They are obviously talented enough (the DA proved it)
> to master even such a difficult trick as Apparating, the War is on,
> and the kids need to be independent and mobile.

*shamelessly threadjacks this post* Mwhaha.  Ha.

Earlier in the day . . . or was it yesterday?  Or . . . was it a couple 
weeks ago at the Hog's Head? *scratches head*

*Anyway*, I recently followed a thread which discussed wandless magic 
and its relation to a wizard's power and/or magical ability.  (You 
know, it think it *was* at the Hog's Head)

The general consensus (which fits with *my* perception of what canon 
tells us, anyway) was that while untrained (or perhaps just v. 
emotional) wizards can do "unfocused", wandless magic, in order to do 
*real*, intentional spellwork without a wand, one must have have some 
serious innate Mojo (and perhaps also an exceptionally focused mind).

Then, however, Apparation was brought up.  Apparation is wandless 
magic, isn't it?  Shouldn't it be quite difficult then?  Furthermore, 
even if "wandless" does not equal "difficult", most posters (like 
myself and Del) automatically assume it must be at least fairly 
high-level magic.  Which makes sense, doesn't it?  I mean, kids must 
not be allowed to do it for a reason -- and then there is also that 
nasty business of splinching.

Yet, I was rereading PS/SS today, and noticed something:

"The train pulled out of the station.  Harry wanted to watch Hagrid 
until he was out of sight; he rose in his seat and pressed his nose 
against the window, but he blinked and Hagrid had gone." - PS/SS Us 
ed., pg. 87

*Hagrid* can apparate!  HAGRID!  Hagrid, who got kicked out of Hogwarts 
in his third year, whose wand is in pieces in a pink umbrella, who has 
arguably shown less magical aptitude than pre-OotP Neville.

Aside from all that, I can hardly imagine the MoM letting licensing the 
guy to Apparate if they won't even allow him to have a wand.  
Conclusion?  Dumbledore must have (as Del suggests he will for H/R/H) 
taught Hagrid in secret.

Problem?  So . . . is Apparation difficult or not?  If it's *not* 
difficult, then what does that say about wandless magic in general?

And, can anyone else imagine Hagrid having the ability to perform 
*other* intentional wandless magicks?  They *are* meant to be 
difficult, aren't they?

My own personal take on this contradiction is that Apparating must be 
in some way *different* than performing most other spells (this is 
supported by the fact that one does not need to speak a spell to do it) 
and therefore it is not connected to one's ability to do other wandless 
magicks.  Also, it must *not* be particularly hard, as Hagrid (and, 
indeed, the majority of wizards) can do it.

So why is it restricted to those "of age"?  I don't think the law has 
all *that* much to do with the safety or ability of the wizard 
performing an Apparation, but rather with the fact that the MoM is 
afraid of what would happen if children were allowed access to that 
kind of independence, which is understandable, IMO.

Of course, this is just my working theory -- I welcome any other ideas 
on Apparation, wandless magic, and the law.

Laura

P. S. What *is* the plural of 'magic', anyway?  As it's 'magicked' and 
'magicking' when we're talking about the verb forms, I've always 
assumed that 'magicks' is right (okay, I know that's not the strongest 
argument).  However, Merriam-Webster.com was silent on the subject, and 
my spell-checker said *both* 'magics' and 'magicks' were wrong. 
*puzzled*




From jrc241 at psu.edu  Sat Mar 20 02:04:00 2004
From: jrc241 at psu.edu (pennstgrle)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 02:04:00 -0000
Subject: Uncovering the Hidden Pattern of the HP Books
In-Reply-To: <c3cn16+k00a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3g8qg+97kk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93462

Kia wrote:

> Generally I am rather wary of such mathematic patterns in 
> Rowling's works. Before OotP Harry got unpopular in every Book 
> with an even number. By this logic, he should have been Mr. 
> Popular in Book Five, but he wasn't. 

Jaimee writes:

That's not entirely true, Kia. In book 1 the students don't really 
know how to take Harry. At first they are very curious about him, 
even wary of him. Harry is a living legend to them, and they treat 
him with awe. ("Awe" might be the perfect word--mixture of wonder, 
respect, reverence, and fear.) The students watch him,...Snape and 
Malfoy mock him. I don't know if that exactly equates popularity as 
much as spotlight.

Now, when Harry starts winning Quidditch, he becomes quite a hit 
with Gryffindor. But, when Harry, Hermione, and Neville lose 50 
points apiece for the Norbet Night, Harry quickly becomes very 
unpopular among his fellow Gryffindors, as well as the Ravenclaws 
and Hufflepuffs who want to see Slytherin dethroned in the House 
Cup. 

So to say Harry was Mr. Popular in PS/SS isn't entirely accurate.

And his popularity could be argued in PoA too. The students once 
again are wary of him because (1)he faints when the dementors come 
around and (2)Trewlany keeps predicting his death. (Do they ever 
really hear that Sirius may be after him? If they do, it is late in 
the book--at least after Sirius cuts open the hangings around Ron's 
bed.) Now, the adults--Fudge, Lupin, the Weasley's, etc--are paying 
attention to Harry because they think Sirius escaped to kill him. 
But I still would call this spotlight, as opposed to popularity.

Don't know why I felt the need to make a point here :) Just wanted 
to show that Harry is treated pretty much the same in every book--
with a mixture of like and dislike, admiration and skepticism, 
wonder and fear.

Sorry this ended up wordy!

Jaimee 




From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net  Sat Mar 20 02:06:45 2004
From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 20:06:45 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Dumbledore a vampire?
References: <c3g7q2+kc5m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <004601c40e20$00b94260$05030f04@dslverizon.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 93463



Which, of course, is why Snape and DD and all these other vamps can 
go traipsing about in "broad daylight" all the time!

Mel


 {Silverthorne/Anne}

Heh...and here I didn't think anyone would take the idea of Dumbly as a vamp seriously when I mentioned it a month ago...*eg*.

Really, though, as I've said before, unless Rowling is taking extreme liberties with the original myths (something she has not done yet--she's fiddled, yes, but stayed within old folk loric boundaries for the most part in regards to mythic races and creatures--ignoring most 'modern' intrepetations in the process as well), I don't  think DD is a vamp, for the same reasons I sited for Snape a while back....he's not (un)dead, he walks in sunlight, he eats and drinks, we haven't found scores of students wandering around with puncture wounds located next to important arterial points, etc etc etc...

**Facial tics starts up**

Just as I *know* Snape is not one.

**spasms in an effort not to fall to base instinct and start screaming out why again...^^; Don't get me started, Pippin--my week has been stressful enough...lol. *hugs*..**

Whoever it is, we haven't met them yet, or they're too well disguised for us to see it yet 

And sorry guys but I have to say that sallow skin, swooping cloak and black attire is not up to Rowling's standard as far as clues poiting in the correct direction goes. Rowling is skillfully subtle in these things, I'm finding. And, the more 'obvious' it is to us...chances are the further away it is from the 'truth'. Severus is just way to obvious. Dumbly isn't as obvious a candidate, but it just doesn't ring true...I'd beleive he was actaully old Moldy Voldy in disguise before I'd believe he was a vamp...

Okay, I'm gonna stop now before I get sucked into this one again.

No, Pippin...don't start...please *begs*...lol...;)

Silverthorne



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 20 02:14:18 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 02:14:18 -0000
Subject: Vague Thoughts on Apparation
In-Reply-To: <c3g08o+f8sh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3g9dq+vq0p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93464

"Steve" <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
> I'm confused about apparation and how the students learn it. Curious
> about how other see the process.
><snip>
> 
> Shifting the model to the Wizard World, I have always assumed that in
> 6th year at Hogwarts, the students would be taught how to apparate at
> school. Although I don't think it will be a regular full-time, every
> week, all year class. Perhaps just an hour or two every a couple times
> a week at night for a month, or something like that.
> 
> Some how, there have to be classes and there has to be opportunities
> for students to learn and try apparating before they take the test for
> their license.
> 
> True it is illegal for student to apparate before they are 'of
> age'(17), but it's also illegal for people to drive (in my example)
> before they are of the proper age, but none the less the law allows
> for a learning process.
> 
> Also, note that for students ALL magic is illegal since they are not
> of age, however, in the supervised learning enviroment of school they
> are allowed to perform magic. I can't see why Apparation would be any
> different.
<snip>
> It seems that both Percy and the Twins took there Apparation test at
> the beginning of the summer holiday, which implies to me that they
> learned the process during the previous school year.
> 
> So, does this sound reasonable to everyone, or am I way off base?


Carol:
We know that the Twins turned seventeen in April of their sixth year.
I had assumed that they practiced at home over the summer, maybe under
their father's supervision, before taking their tests. Percy, in
contrast, didn't take his test till after he'd left Hogwarts (two
weeks before the Quidditch World Cup, IIRC). Of course, we don't know
when his birthday is, but I think he must not have turned seventeen
until just before his seventh year or he would have taken his test the
previous summer. Instead, he apparently had to wait until he was
almost eighteen, again presumably practicing at home under his
father's supervision until he was ready to take the test. In any case,
if such classes were offered to the older sixth years, Percy would not
have been eligible because he'd still have been sixteen. And if Fred
and George, with their April birthdays, had been old enough to take
the classes for a month or two before the term ended, surely we'd have
heard about it? They'd have been as excited about learining to
apparate as they were about canary creams. 

I could be wrong, of course, and there might be an Apparation teacher
we haven't yet heard of at Hogwarts, or it could be one of Madam
Hooch's duties, since she teaches only first-years (and coaches
Quidditch). But there's one hitch: As Hermione keeps informing us, you
can't apparate inside Hogwarts or on the Hogwarts grounds. They'd have
to go to Hogsmeade to do it.

So I don't have any answers, really, just my own thoughts on the
subject. But if Hermione turns seventeen in September of her sixth
year--an early birthday instead of a late one--you can bet we'll be
watching her learn it.

Carol




From annemehr at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 20 02:29:50 2004
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 02:29:50 -0000
Subject: Vague Thoughts on Apparation
In-Reply-To: <c3g08o+f8sh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3gaau+duku@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93465

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
> I'm confused about apparation and how the students learn it. Curious
> about how other see the process.
<snip bboy_mn's ideas on learning apparition, which look good to me
even though I got a different impression>

Annemehr:
Great!  Well, before I jump in, I'll just note that some of the minor
details of learning to drive are different in my state, but I won't
bother listing them since some of those laws have changed a bit since,
er, 1976!  :D

Just going by my impressions from the books (and Percy, Fred, and
George), I got the idea that learning to apparate has nothing to do
with Hogwarts.  That would mean that everyone turning seventeen during
a given school year would go home for the summer and *then* learn how
to apparate.  I don't know who teaches them -- just anyone who has an
apparition license, or a Ministry official?  Then when they're ready,
they take the test with a Ministry official and are licensed by the
Ministry.

The reason I got these impressions is because 1)I figured it had to do
with the Dept. of Magical Transportation, and 2)the three Weasleys
who've acquired licenses in Harry's experience have done it in the
summer, and Fred and George's birthday was in April.  There was plenty
of time after term ended for them to learn and take their tests before
Harry joined them.

That's not to say they couldn't have been learning apparition in
Hogwarts without Harry noticing, I realise, but that wasn't my
impression.  Of course, maybe they would have had to go out to
Hogsmeade to really practice as the distances may have been too short
for really good practice within the Hogwarts grounds.  I still think
they don't do it at school at all, though.

Let's see...
OoP isn't really specific about when exactly Fred and George passed
their test, but GoF has Percy passing his two weeks before Harry
arrived at the Burrow, which is apparently about three weeks before
the start of term for Harry's fourth year. (GoF ch. 6, p.67 US)  I
checked the Lexicon, which does not have a specific birthdate for
Percy but does have this to say:

---------------------------------------------
Percy is four years older than Ron; he was in his fifth year when Ron
was in his first. He was probably born in the summer of 1977, so that
he didn't turn 17 until he left Hogwarts. He got his apparition
license during the summer of 1995 and enjoyed Apparating here and
there just to show off the fact that he could.
----------------------------------------------
[Note: Lexicon means to say he got his license in the summer of 1994,
which is when he would have turned 17 if born in 1977, and it's also
the year at the beginning of GoF.]

Percy turning 17 after leaving Hogwarts seems odd to me, because it
would mean he was a whole year ahead; he would have had to have spent
his entire seventh year at Hogwarts as a sixteen-year-old, in other
words.  And yet Fred and George and Angelina turn seventeen during
their sixth year (GoF), so how can Percy never turn seventeen until
after his seventh year, unless a cutoff date was ignored somewhere?  I
think he must have had his birthday before he left school (quite a bit
before), but didn't learn apparition until the summer.

Well, take it for what it's worth.  I enjoy delving into these kind of
questions, but I don't have a real attachment to these ideas or anything.

Annemehr  
who didn't mean to turn this post into a discussion of Percy's age or
anything...




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 20 02:40:56 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 02:40:56 -0000
Subject: The Podmore Connection--Percy as DD's Spy
In-Reply-To: <c3fvvt+7bgf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3gavo+sj97@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93466

Carol:
<snipped> <<But Fudge is heading for a fall and Percy will almost
certainly go down with him. Let's hope that being disgraced is all it
takes to make him to see the error of his ways. If not, we may really
see an evil Percy. I hope not, for the Weasley family's sake.
 
Carol, who still has sympathy for Percy and thinks he will die
redeemed in Book 7--or maybe Book 6 as the war intensifies and the
deaths start to multiply>>
> 
Jenjar replied:
> 
>Carol, I agree with your take on Percy's motivation and 
>misguidedness.  Maybe as you suggest, he will die redeemed in Book 7 
>but, I think before that happens, his blindness and MOM ambition will 
>lead to the death of one of his family members ( I think it will be 
>Arthur) and then he will finally see the truth for what it is, 
>recognize his awful miscalculations and join Dumbledore and Harry in 
>all out war against V and anyone (like the MOM) who dares stand in 
>there way.  I've suggested this before but never got a response.  I'm 
>curious if anyone else agrees or thinks this idea is flawed...

Carol:
I know how you feel about not getting a response to your ideas, so
I'll react. With so many Weasleys, it's almost certain there will be
more than one Weasley death, but I hope it's not Arthur or Ron. I
don't think it will be Molly because of her boggart; it will surely be
one or more of the people Harry saw lying on the floor in OoP. (It's
likely that Harry didn't see all of the "dead" Weasleys--some of them
probably appeared before he entered the room--but I think the ones
that were shown are the ones whose deaths or near-deaths are
foreshadowed.) Ginny, who wasn't shown, has already had her brush with
death (CoS). So has Arthur (OoP), and Ron, I assume, will have one in
every book. That leaves us with Percy, whom we both think will die
redeemed (after causing yet more grief to himself and his family),
Bill, the twins, and Harry, who doesn't count because he's not a
Weasley. Oddly, we don't see Charlie, whose work with dragons would
otherwise make him a likely candidate. So I predict Bill, in some sort
of dispute involving Goblins, Percy, and a not-yet fired (or fired and
very disgruntled) Fudge. I don't want it to be the twins because that
would be a double blow to Molly, and just one dead twin would be too
hard on the survivor to even contemplate. The boggart showed them
together, though, and I think that *if* they die, it will be together.
Just let them be reconciled to Percy first.

Carol, who's still mourning Cedric, beginning to wonder if she really
wants to read these books




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sat Mar 20 02:55:13 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 02:55:13 -0000
Subject: Why didn't  Lily have to die?
In-Reply-To: <c3g6ol+mijv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3gbqh+aism@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93467

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" 
<justcarol67 at y...> wrote:
> > Carol:
> > <<<What *I* don't understand is how he could have thought 
that *any* mother would stand aside and let him kill her 
baby.>>>
<snip>
> Yes, I'm very much aware that LV can't comprehend either love 
or emotion in general and I'm familiar with the quotes you cited 
andtheir implications.
<snip more>
> But still, on an intellectual level, he should understand that 
mothers in general will protect their babies. Even the animal 
mothers he must have seen in the wild will fight for their young, if 
not from love then from a natural instinct that he could interpret 
as something mechanical or selfish but nevertheless 
undeniable real. It seems incredibly dense to expect any mother 
to just step aside so he could kill her child, or to see such a 
gesture as "silly."<<

But, as someone pointed out not long ago in the morality 
thread,the mother who will fight to the death to defend her 
young from predators will nonetheless allow them to be killed by 
more dominant members of her own species, a behavior which 
is, unfortunately, also observable among humans.  Having slain 
her mate, Voldemort   expects Lily to submit, not fight.

Pippin





From sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 20 03:39:44 2004
From: sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com (sevenhundredandthirteen)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 03:39:44 -0000
Subject: Unlocking the Hidden Pattern/7 tasks-7 books
In-Reply-To: <c3bn8u+3e5h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3gee0+8oqi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93468

Sienna, I've replied to all of your posts in one.

Sienna wrote:
>Both CoS and OoTP highlight Harry's connection to Voldemort. 
<snip>
>In both books, Harry's connection with Voldemort gives him
>insight into what is going on and warns him that people are in 
danger. 
>In CoS, this is because he hears the Basilisk in the pipes, while in
>OoTP, the warnings he receives are in his dreams.

Me (Lauraisa):

But, Harry's scar connection with Voldemort gives him insight in GoF 
before OotP. He gets dreams from Voldemort's point of view, first 
when he kills Frank Bryce, also when he is Divination class dreaming 
about Voldemort and Wormtail. This is before OotP, so it doesn't fit 
in your parallel.

Sienna wrote:

>11.Ron is seriously injured when Sirius drags him into the Whomping
>Willow and when Wormtail escapes
<snip>
>6.Look for Ron to be in some mortal danger. If he was so seriously
>injured in PoA, then he's going to come under a huge attack in Bk 6.

Me (Laurasia):

Call me crazy, but I don't consider a broken leg a serious injury... 
It was mended in a second wasn't it? In fact, Ron getting all the 
bones in his leg removed would be more serious, yet we know that'd 
still only require one night in the School Infirmary. Wouldn't his 
reaction to the Acromantuala in CoS be considered more serious? 
Wouldn't the brain attack in the DoM be more serious? He was knocked 
out cold in PS. In fact, so far the only book he wasn't injured in 
was GoF. So, I don't see how a broken leg in Book 3 predicts maybe 
death for Ron in Book 6.

Sienna wrote:

>6.Ron and Hermione have a falling-out over their pets; Ron and Harry
>have a falling-out with Hermione over Harry's broom

Me:

But they have fights in every book...  The Triwizard Cup, the Yule 
Brawl, the midnight duel, not telling Harry anything in letter, etc. 
It's a characteristic of every book, not just PoA, that we see some 
unease amongst the trio.

Sienna wrote:

>We get introduced to
>Charlie in PS/SS when they organise with him to come and take
>Norbert away. The next time we see Charlie, he is again taking care
>of Dragons.

Me:

But surely there are more characters more important than Charlie who 
don't fit this parallel? What about Myrtle who is the key to finding 
the opening of the CoS, and Colin Creevey who is petrified? Dobby? I 
could make up a parallel of any two HP books I like. I've decided to 
say that Book 2 and Book 4 parallel each other. Here is a list I came 
up with just then:

Myrtle appears in Book 4, and the only time before than in Book 2. 

Dennis Creevey appears in Book 4, but Colin Creevey appeared in Book 
2.

We see acromantula in Book 2, then again in Book 4.

Harry goes to the Burrow in Book 2, then in Book 4.

The Quidditch Cup gets called off in Book 2 and Book 4 (for different 
reasons).

The DADA teachers loses his mind in Book 2, and his soul in Book 4.

The three Tasks of Book 4 parallel the three attacks of the basilisk 
on Hogwart's students Book 2. 
-The first where only Cedric gets seriously injured on his face 
parallel's Colin's camera held up to his face shielding him from the 
basilisk.
- The second where Harry getting Fleur's sister because she couldn't 
make it parallels Justin getting the basilisk's stare, because Nick 
couldn't die from it.
-The third where Penelope and Hermione hold up a mirror and facing 
the peril on the basilisk together parallel Cedric and Harry taking 
the cup together and facing the peril of Voldemort together.

Harry uses a bathroom as a location to prepare a tactic for 
discovering who the heir of Slytherin is in Book 2 , and again uses a 
bathroom to discover a tactic for overcoming the Second Task in Book 
4.

The four champions who try to get to the Cup (3 male, 1 female) 
mirror the four people who get into the Chamber (3 male, 1 female). 
One attacks another (Krum attacks Cedric, Lockhart attacks Harry), 
the girl is put in peril by a magical attack (By Riddle, by Barty 
Jnr) and hence taken out of the race. Only two of the four finally 
make it to the very end. One is killed by Voldemort's orders, the 
other is very nearly killed by Voldemort.

Phoenix song? The two times we hear it in battle- In CoS and GoF.

Harry is attacked and injured by a beast with poisonous fangs in both 
CoS and GoF (acromantula).

The two times Fawkes heals Harry's wounds? CoS and GoF.

Snape puts Harry in detention in both CoS and GoF. Both times Ron 
also gets detention at the same time for the same event (Flying car, 
yelling at Snape).

Both years Harry doesn't have to sit any end of year tests, being 
called off for the whole school in Book 2, and being excused because 
he's a champion in Book 4.

Both books see Voldemort making an attempt to reclaim his old body. 
First the old body he had as a 16 year old boy, and secondly the old 
body he had as an evil overlord.

The only two times when we've seen scenes from Tom Riddle's youth? In 
CoS and GoF. Both times an innocent person gets the blame for Tom's 
actions (Hagrid, Frank Bryce).

The only two accounts of Tom Riddle killing anyone in his youth? 
Myrtle in Book 2, and his family in Book 4. All of whom were muggles 
or muggle-born.

In GoF Fawkes's tail feather in Harry and Voldermort's wands cause 
then to battle alone. Because of these cores the wands then give 
Harry the ghosts who help him. In CoS Fawkes wounds the basilisk 
gives Harry the Sorting Hat and Sword to help him, enabling Harry and 
Tom Riddle to fight alone.

Myrtle and Ginny both fancy Harry in CoS, paralleling the multitude 
of girls who ask Harry to the Ball in GoF.

Harry has to take a medicinal potion to heal his wounds in both books-
 Skel-Gro and Pepper up after the Second task.

Harry's arm is injured- first by the bludger and Lockhart in CoS, 
then by the Dragon in GoF.

Dobby first appears in Book 2, then not again until Book 4.

Dobby's parallel character, Winky, first makes her appearance in GoF, 
whilst, as above, he first appearance was in CoS.

Something big is released about Hargid's past- why he was expelled, 
and about his family.

Hagrid is suspected of being untrustworthy0 first by Fudge, secondly 
because he is revealed to be half Giant.

Polyjuice potion is used in both books.

*******

Half if these aren't very convincing, or else are inconsequential, 
but I could keep going. As you can see, there is a way of linking any 
of the HP books to each other.
To give some quick examples of how this can fit in with other books, 
if any one wants a starting point to make a list of their own:

3/5
Time Turners are used in Book 3, then again we see then in Book 5.
We see Beaky in Book 3, then in Book 5.
Qryffindor with the Quidditch Cup in Book 3 and Book 5.
We see Lupin first in Book 3, and not again until Book 5.
Harry first notices Cho Chang in Book 3, and then goes out with her 
in Book 5.
We first see Dementors in Book 3, and then not again until Book 5. 
And Harry is nearly sucked both times.
The DADA teacher has a connection to half-breeds, either being one or 
despising them.


2/3
We see the Whomping Willow in Book 2, then Book 3. 
Harry spends a night in The Leaky Cauldron in Book 2,  then Book 3.
The first time we hear about Azkaban is when Hagrid goes there in 
Book 2. Then we see Sirius escape from it on Book 3.

4/5
Harry goes to see Dumbledore in his office in Book 4, and in Book 5.
Harry uses a penseive in both Book 4 and Book 5.
Harry has dreams from Voldemort's point of view in Book 4 and 5.
Both books have a newspaper campaign about Harry, both of which try 
to discredit him.


I'm sure with 10 or so minutes we could all add dozens of facts to 
these lists.


Sienna wrote:

>Finally, both PS/SS and GoF are characterised by a massive change in
>Harry's life
and
>12.Harry (and team) will be directly responsible for saving the
>school, setting us up for a HUGE book 7.

Me:

I don't meant o put any more of a dampener on your theory, but 
*every* book has a major change in Harry's life. ;-) And I agree 
totally with you, but I don't think anyone needs a mirrored book 
theory to make a guess that Harry will end up saving the world.

Nadine wrote:

>Have you read, I believe it was Iris' theory (I couldn't find the
>post reference) about the 7 tasks at the end of PS/SS mirroring the
>7 books ? Very interresting indeed...

That theory was very interesting indeed. 

A short summary for anyone not familiar:
3-headed dog parallels 3 headed Quirrel [poor stuttering Quirrel, mad 
insane Death Eater Quirrel, and Quirelmort]. 
Devil's Snare with `snake like tendrils.' And `ensnaring people' like 
the covert basilisk does in secret.
Keys = marauder's map which is the key to Lupin and Snape arriving in 
the Shack. 
Chessboard where you have to make a sacrifice to win = Cedric dies 
but Dumbly has `gleam of triumph.' 

This post was make before OotP. They said that Troll shows someone 
else does the battle for Harry [Could be: Dumbly fighting Voldemort 
in MoM] that losing Troll is losing another protection for the stone 
[Could be: Harry and the MoM possession- Voldemort loses the abiltiy 
to possess Harry. Harry gains a protection... well, sort of.] 
Book 6 should mirror logic and also spliting of forces [when Hermione 
has to turn around and leave Harry]. And Harry seeing himself in the 
mirror predicts Book 7 should be Harry vs. Harry. Harry versus that 
badness inside him. Which I think is a pretty good prediction. 

I disagree with Book 3 keys significance, however. I think a better 
symbolic link could be that the keys are really a sign on the Time 
Travel incident. Think the Butterfly Effect. Where there are 
thousands of possible futures possible at any given second, but only 
one will take you where you want to go. 

I also just made up a theory just then that how there's link between 
the task's creators and the resolution to each of the 7 books. 
Hargid = friendship- the *love* stops Voldy. 
Sprout = Grows the Mandrakes that save the petrified.
Flitwick = Sirius is in Flitwick's office, which enables Harry to 
save him.
McGonagall = McG is the person who witnesses destruction of Barty 
Jnr. 
Quirrel was possessed, Harry's possession ends up saving his life.
And it's not very far to stretch to assume that Snape should do 
something great in the next book, and finally Dumbledore finishes it 
all off in Book 7.

Anyway, I hope that I've given you all enough to think about.

~<(Laurasia)>~

Who laughed when Sienna apologised for the length of her posts, as 
she herself always write far longer posts and never thought to 
apologise for those who tediously read them.





From dk59us at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 20 03:42:30 2004
From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 03:42:30 -0000
Subject: Fawkes and his feathers
In-Reply-To: <c3g1hf+tunr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3gej6+561l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93469

Carol:
<snip>
I imagine a scene very much like the one that occurred with Harry...
I certainly don't think it was designed for "evil overlord work,"... 

Carol, who does not believe that Ollivander is evil or that he would
design a wand whose purpose was to wreak havoc with the WW<snip>

Eustace_Scrubb:
Nor do I...sorry if my flippancy gave that impression.  It may well be
the wand that Tom first selected as an 11-year old, although it's
clear that some wizards and witches acquire other wands later in life
by choice or necessity (Ron, Neville now, Peter (?), maybe Narcissa
and maybe even Lily, as Ollivander reminiscences about her "first
wand," suggesting it wasn't her last).  

I guess I'm more interested in what's going on "behind the scenes" in
the wand creation and selection process and I doubt there is any canon
on it.  I do wonder how/when Fawkes came to "give" feathers.  Does the
wandmaker go to the phoenix or the wizard/witch who is the phoenix'
companion and ask for the feathers?  Are they remnants from one of his
periodic burnings, salvaged by Dumbledore (or whoever was Fawkes'
companion at the time) and turned over to a wandmaker because of their
rare and powerful qualities?  Then again, is Fawkes "_the_ phoenix,"
or one of many?  I guess if we know of any _other_ wands with phoenix
feather cores, the feathers must have come from a different phoenix.

And in the back of my mind...will Fawkes be of great importance in
Books 6 & 7?

Regards,

Eustace_Scrubb




From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 20 03:57:03 2004
From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 03:57:03 -0000
Subject: FILK: Fly
Message-ID: <c3gfef+u2ul@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93470

Song # 7 from my CoS musical, A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to 
the Chamber.

Fly (CoS, Chap. 5)

To the tune of Free, from Sondheim's A Funny Thing Happened on the 
Way to the Forum 

Dedicated to Constance Vigilance (celebrant of all four Founders)

Text and a brief excerpt here (you'll have to scroll down)

http://users.bestweb.net/~foosie/forum.htm

NOTE: Sondheim's "Free" in which the slave Pseudulus sings of the 
joys (and burdens) of freedom, might seem to make an ideal vehicle 
for Dobby. Actually, it is *so* ideal that it would have only been 
necessary to change a few words, which isn't really filking. Hence 
this version, presented for your reading ? and hopefully singing ? 
pleasure
..

THE SCENE: King's Cross. Inexplicably blocked from Station 9 and ?  , 
RON & HARRY hit upon another way to get to Hogwarts. 

HARRY  (spoken):
Ron Weasley!

RON:
Yes, Harry?

HARRY:
Get me to school!

RON:
I have no plan
.

HARRY:
You could fly

RON:
I could what?

HARRY:
Fly!

RON (music):
Fly!
Oh, what a plan!
Oh, what a plan!

(spoken) Say it again
.

HARRY:
Fly!

RON:
(music) Although we're blocked
We have a scheme
That we could try. . .
And yet I never thought that I . . .

(spoken) Once more!

HARRY:
Fly!

RON:
(music) But my folks will not need the auto . . .
A teen should have the right to use magic. . .
In an emergency which this is so clearly. . .
Shall we try it?

We can take it to Hogwarts if we just climb aboard
On my father's Ford

HARRY:
Fly!

RON:
For years they'll all discuss how
Through the sky we soared
Shall we fly it?

HARRY:
Let us fly it!

RON:
Toward this Ford I'll use my wand to open up the trunk
Toss in all our junk


HARRY:
Fly!

RON:
Hear the engine spring to life with a resounding thunk
Can we fly it?

RON & HARRY
We can fly it!

RON:
Watch us fly in air with London spread out below
As we track the tracks by hook or crook
See the sky provide the greatest show
It bestows
Can you see the daring of this deed we undertook?
Can you see how Fred and George will give us jealous looks?
Can you see us on the cover of the British book?

HARRY:
Fly!

RON:
That's it!

HARRY:
Fly!

RON:
Yes!

HARRY:
Fly!

RON:
But it's too long. . .
I didn't plan . . .
The way it is,
We have no food,
Save for some toffee,
And we don't have a thing to drink
We're really hot and we're so thirsty
If on the train 
With Bertie's would we dine

So if we drink a little late,
How does it feel?

HARRY:
Dry!

RON:
Can we make it?

Can you hear the motor sputter as it gives a whine?
Will the motor now


HARRY:

.Fry?

RON:
>From up above the clouds we start a slow decline
I deplore it!

HARRY:
I'll ignore it.

RON:
We can see the sun that's setting and we're in the dark
Looking for landmarks..

HARRY:

Sigh!

RON:
Yikes,
Let's just keep our fingers crossed we find a place to park.
Do we see it?

RON & HARRY
Yes, we see it!

RON:
Now the castle of Hogwarts comes into our sight
As the Anglia makes steam and smoke 
Just a little ways, but oh, to end our long flight
We have just flown past the lake so we will not be soaked
But I see there is a chance that both of us may croak
For I think that I have overheard the engine choke.

HARRY
Can you stop it?

RON:
Oh, just drop it.

As the Anglia descends
The castle walls loom
But I'll try to steer though I can't see
Just a little ways and
Oh, we'll make a ka-boom

HARRY
Will we perish in a crash like Mom allegedly?

RON
Will they have to list us with traffic fatalities?
Will we be the victims of a Whomping road rage-y
.. 

HARRY:

.Tree!

RON:
Hit it!

HARRY:
Tree!

RON:
Curse it!

HARRY:
T - R - Double . . .

RON:
No, the wrong way . . .

HARRY:
T - R - E - E

BOTH
Tree!
    
(The Whomping Willow pounds away at RON, HARRY & the Anglia, until 
its engine revives and makes its escape)

    -	CMC

HARRY POTTER FILKS 
http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm    





From navarro198 at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 20 04:00:45 2004
From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 04:00:45 -0000
Subject: "Snape's Job"
In-Reply-To: <20040318004536.11479.qmail@web60109.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c3gfld+kp7n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93471

owlery2003 commented:
It's a tribute to the depth JKR built into Snape's mysterious 
character. I think it's easy to see how Severus gets away with it. 
Nobody "trusts" him (except DD, of course!), and everybody suspects 
him. He's not likeable (to other characters in the books!!). 

Bookworm:
I disagree. Other than Sirius, whose animosity goes back years, most 
adults seem to accept Snape.  

"[Molly] turned to the gang of wizards behind him and whispered 
urgently, 'He's just arrived, the meeting's started....'

The wizards behind Harry all made noises of interest and excitement 
and began filing past Harry toward the door through which Mrs. 
Weasley had just come." (OoP, Ch4, p61 US) 

It's the trio that don't trust Snape. That doesn't mean other *like* 
him, but they trust him and are *interested* in what he has to say 
in his top secret report.

(Just to prevent any argument, Fred tells Harry that it is Snape at 
the meeting on page 69.)

Ravenclaw Bookworm




From mpjdekker at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 20 04:07:51 2004
From: mpjdekker at hotmail.com (mightymaus75)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 04:07:51 -0000
Subject: Voldemort *inside* Harry's head (mind)?
In-Reply-To: <002a01c40da5$d71f1580$0302a8c0@henrike>
Message-ID: <c3gg2n+p8cq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93472

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "SnapesRaven" 
<SnapesRaven at w...> wrote:
>
> I thought the voice might be Voldemort's, since he now shares
> Harry's blood and they had a connection through the scar all zhe
> time. I just didn't think of Voldemort using such subtle means,
> carefulle 'planting' bad feelings in Harry in order to make him
> turn from everyone he trusted thus far. 
>   Opinions, anyone?
> 
>   SnapesRaven
> 

I was actually working on a post on the exact same subject. Your post 
forced me to rush the following trough. If there are any spelling 
mistakes I blame them on SnapesRaven. Some of you might remember a 
theory I introduced a few months back called KITTENS & RAINBOWS (Key 
Is The Transferred Essence Seeking Reunion. Affection Is Not Beyond 
Obsessive Wicked Sorcerer.) This theory stated that Voldemort is not 
truly alive, Voldemort cannot become truly alive until Harry dies, 
and Harry carries a part of Voldemort's mind inside of him. 

I believe it is this separated part of Voldemort's mind that 
sometimes talks to Harry. In an earlier message I already suggested 
that the name T.M. Riddle seemed familiar to Harry in CoS because the 
separated part of Voldemort's mind talked to Harry when he was still 
very small. Since then he has become a lot quieter, but he hasn't 
completely stopped talking to Harry. Not counting attacks by Imperio 
or Legillimency, I found the following instances in which Harry hears 
a voice inside his head: 

In PS/SS Harry hears voices which maybe were coming from inside his 
own head at the end of the fight with Quirrellmort: "Quirrell 
screamed and tried to throw Harry off ? the pain in Harry's head was 
building ? he couldn't see ? he could only hear Quirrell's terrible 
shrieks and Voldemort's yells of, 'KILL HIM! KILL HIM!' and other 
voices, maybe in Harry's own head, crying, 'Harry! Harry!'" Harry 
hears more than one voice crying 'Harry! Harry!'. One of these voices 
certainly is Dumbledore coming just in time to pull Harry away from 
Professor Quirrell, but who does the other voice belong to? The fact 
that Harry was not sure if the voices were coming from outside his 
own head suggests that the other voice came from inside his head.  

In CoS Harry hears a nasty little voice in his brain when he is lying 
in bed after the duelling club: "But I'm in Gryffindor, Harry 
thought. The Sorting Hat wouldn't have put me in here if I had 
Slytherin blood... Ah, said a nasty little voice in his brain, but 
the Sorting Hat wanted to put you in Slytherin, don't you remember? 
Harry turned over. He'd see Justin the next day in Herbology and he'd 
explain that he'd been calling the snake off, not egging it on, which 
(he thought angrily, pummelling his pillow) any fool should have 
realised." Could be just a figure of speech; we all have little 
voices of doubt in our head now and then. But then maybe that's what 
JKR wants us to think?

In PoA Harry hears a voice inside his head when he has his want 
pointed at Sirius: "'WE'RE UP HERE!' Hermione screamed 
suddenly. 'WE'RE UP HERE ? SIRIUS BLACK ? QUICK!'
Black made a startled movement that almost dislodged Crookshanks; 
Harry gripped his wand convulsively ? Do it now! said a voice in his 
head ? but the footsteps were thundering up the stairs and Harry 
still hadn't done it." Not many of us hear voices inside our head 
telling us to kill other people. 

In OotP Harry hears a voice inside his head when he is attacked by 
the Dementors: "But there was no happiness in him... the Dementor's 
icy fingers were closing on his throat ? the high-patched laughter 
was growing louder and louder, and a voice spoke inside his 
head: 'Bow to death, Harry... it might even be painless... I would 
not know... I have never died.'" We all assume that what Harry heard 
was the Dementor talking telepathically inside his head, but then the 
voice says: 'Bow to death, Harry'. Harry was told to bow to death 
once before. Voldemort used the exact same words in the dark and 
overgrown graveyard in GoF. Perhaps it wasn't the Dementor Harry 
heard inside his head.  

In OotP Harry hear a small and truthful voice inside his head after 
Ron and Hermione received their prefect badges: "He had forgotten 
completely about prefects being chosen in the fifth year. He had been 
too anxious about the possibility of being expelled to spare a 
thought for the fact that badges must be winging their way towards 
certain people. But if he had remembered... if he had thought about 
it... what would he have expected? Not this, said a small and 
truthful voice inside his head." The small voice then goes on to have 
an entire conversation with Harry. It isn't entirely clear what the 
small voice is trying to achieve in this conversation, but the whole 
passage certainly does come across as being very schizophrenic.  

In OotP Harry hears a nagging voice inside his head after seeing 
Snape's worst memory in the Pensieve: "He had been so sure his 
parents were wonderful people that he had never had the slightest 
difficulty in disbelieving the aspersions Snape cast on his father's 
character. Hadn't people like Hagrid and Sirius told Harry how 
wonderful his father had been? (Yeah, well, look what Sirius was like 
himself, said a nagging voice inside Harry's head... he was as bad, 
wasn't he?)" Could be just a figure of speech; we all have little 
voices of doubt in our head now and then. But then maybe that's what 
JKR wants us to think?

In OotP Harry hears an unbidden voice inside his head when he's 
running along the rows filled with prophecies: "Some of them had a 
weird, liquid glow; others were as dull and dark within as blown 
light bulbs. They passed row eighty-four... eighty-five... Harry was 
listening hard for the slightest sound of movement, but Sirius might 
be gagged now, or else unconscious... or, said an unbidden voice 
inside his head, he might already be dead..." Could be just a figure 
of speech; we all have little voices of doubt in our head now and 
then. But then maybe that's what JKR wants us to think?

And again in OotP hears a small voice inside his head when the two-
way mirror fails to contact Sirius: "Nothing happened. The frustrated 
face looking back out of the mirror was still, definitely, his own... 
Sirius didn't have his mirror on him when he went through the 
archway, said a small voice in Harry's head. That's why it's not 
working... Harry remained quite still for a moment, then hurled the 
mirror back into the trunk where it shattered." Could be just a 
figure of speech; we all have little voices of doubt in our head now 
and then. But then maybe that's what JKR wants us to think?

Could these voices in Harry's head be a separated part of Voldemort's 
mind talking to Harry? Some of them can perhaps be explained as just 
being a figure of speech, but that certainly can't explain all of 
them. And interestingly the number of instances in which Harry is 
described as hearing a voice inside his head seems to be increasing 
in OotP.

-Maus


I'm happy to announce that KITTENS & RAINBOWS now also has it's own 
website: http://home.hccnet.nl/p.s.dekker/HPtheory.html





From pt4ever at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 20 03:21:35 2004
From: pt4ever at yahoo.com (JoAnna)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 03:21:35 -0000
Subject: Harry's shortest stay at Privet Drive
In-Reply-To: <F63308FB-7A11-11D8-BC58-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu>
Message-ID: <c3gdbv+vm6l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93473

Laura:

<<<Yet, I was rereading PS/SS today, and noticed something:

"The train pulled out of the station. Harry wanted to watch Hagrid
until he was out of sight; he rose in his seat and pressed his nose
against the window, but he blinked and Hagrid had gone." - PS/SS Us
ed., pg. 87

*Hagrid* can apparate! HAGRID! Hagrid, who got kicked out of Hogwarts
in his third year, whose wand is in pieces in a pink umbrella, who has
arguably shown less magical aptitude than pre-OotP Neville.>>>

JoAnna:

I always thought that Hagrid had NOT apparated, but merely entered
Platform 9 and 3/4, perhaps to take the Hogwarts Express, or the
Knight Bus, or some other form of transportation back to Hogwarts.  

As for magical aptitude, I'm of the opinion that Hagrid shows quite a
lot considering the level of education he's had (and I sincerely hope
that Hagrid, someday, can somehow get cleared of opening the CoS and
get the Wizarding equivalent of a G.E.D., if one exists).

If Hagrid DID Apparate, however, there's no reason he couldn't have
learned, if Apparition is a Ministry thing and not a Hogwarts thing. 
Unless there was a prerequisite besides being of age (e.g., passing at
least one O.W.L.), there's no reason Hagrid couldn't have gone to the
Ministry and obtained an Apparition license even though he'd been
expelled from Hogwarts.  *shrug*  Then again, perhaps his size is a
factor in is ability or lack thereof to learn to Apparate.  We may
never know unless J.K. tells us, I guess!





From Kimberly.Tarasenko at Colorado.edu  Sat Mar 20 02:54:18 2004
From: Kimberly.Tarasenko at Colorado.edu (Kimberly)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 02:54:18 -0000
Subject: The Podmore Connection--Percy as DD's Spy
In-Reply-To: <c3fj16+k8kr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3gboq+s61p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93474

> Potioncat:
> I agree, with Pippen, I think Percy is acting for the good of the 
> Order. It make sense to me, that he would continue to support DD, 
> but use his level in the ministry as a front.  It is very likely 
> neither Arthur or Molly know. I bet it hurt Percy a great deal to 
> make his mother cry.
>  He would most likely have lost his position in the Ministry if 
> Fudge thought he was on still on good terms with his family.  On the 
> other hand, it made Fudge feel even more justified, that this young 
> man chose his ideals over the Weasleys'.




I really don't think Percy is acting for the Order.  There are 
plenty of DD's spys in the Ministry (Kingsley Shacklebolt, Arthur, 
Tonks), and everyone in the Order is allowed to know about them.  It 
doesn't seem like DD to have Percy do such hurtful things to his 
family when it's really not needed.  Also, I think the assumption 
vocalized by the twins early in the book is true: 
"Dad reckons Fudge only wants Percy in his office because he wants 
to use him to spy on the faimly - and Dumbledore."  If that is true, 
then the ministry wants Percy to continue to be on good terms with 
his family so he can be an effective spy.  Otherwise, what's the 
point?  If he was acting as spy for the Order, he would retain the 
bonds with his family that the ministry presumably wanted to use.



Kimberly





From p_implies_q at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 20 03:23:27 2004
From: p_implies_q at yahoo.com (p_implies_q)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 03:23:27 -0000
Subject: "Snape's Job"
In-Reply-To: <c3bt98+gq04@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3gdff+dujj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93475

<snip>
> Sigune again:
> Just to put this straight: when I posted this excerpt I never for a 
> minute thought about the 'glint' as being a sign of malice. It struck 
> me, though, because we all know this comparison of Snape's eyes with 
> dark tunnels and their description as being without the friendly 
> glimmer of Hagrid's. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought it was 
> the first time we read of anything like a spark in Snape's eyes. This 
> suggested to me a kind of enthousiasm or pleasure I have never seen 
> associated with him before.

There's also the end of GoF:
'Snape's eyes were glittering strangely' (quote might not be 
exact).  Got the distinct impression, from this and his 
conversations with Sirius, that Snape gets his kicks almost 
exclusively from doing dangerous work and feeling useful (or 
important, if you like).  Since there's not much glamour 
associated with being a school teacher, no wonder he's not the 
life of the party.

Alice
-----------------------
'Like Alice, I try to believe three impossible things before 
breakfast.'
--Doctor Who





From jenjar2001 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 20 03:48:35 2004
From: jenjar2001 at yahoo.com (jenjar2001)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 03:48:35 -0000
Subject: The Podmore Connection--Percy as DD's Spy
In-Reply-To: <c3gavo+sj97@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3geuj+i6o3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93476

> Carol:
> I know how you feel about not getting a response to your ideas, so
> I'll react. 

Ginny, who wasn't shown, has already had her brush with death (CoS). 
So has Arthur (OoP), and Ron, I assume, will have one in every book. 
So I predict Bill, in some sort of dispute involving Goblins, Percy, 
and a not-yet fired (or fired and very disgruntled) Fudge. >

Jenjar:

Thanks for the response Carol!  Didn't mean to sound like an ignored 
toddler...totally appreciate your response:)

Your prediction of Bill's death is interesting--especially since it 
has to do with Goblins which we know has to become a big thing soon, 
what with all the history of magic lesson refrences and I can't 
remember who but someone on the list suggested while Dumbledore was 
away from Hogwarts during OoP, he was probably liasing with the 
Goblins.  If Dumbledore did make some sort of agreement with them, 
ultimately circumventing Fudge and the MoM, that would be a great set-
up for future battles between the *good guys* and the *power 
mongers*.  Also sets things up nicely for Percy yet again to be faced 
with choosing between his family and his ambition--assuming Bill is a 
major part of any liason with the goblins.   





From tipgardner at netscape.net  Sat Mar 20 04:01:38 2004
From: tipgardner at netscape.net (tipgardner)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 04:01:38 -0000
Subject: Harry's shortest stay at Privet Drive
In-Reply-To: <F63308FB-7A11-11D8-BC58-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu>
Message-ID: <c3gfn2+tctv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93477

Laura Ingalls Huntley wrote:
> Yet, I was rereading PS/SS today, and noticed something:
> "The train pulled out of the station.  Harry wanted to watch Hagrid 
> until he was out of sight; he rose in his seat and pressed his nose 
> against the window, but he blinked and Hagrid had gone." - PS/SS Us 
> ed., pg. 87
 
> *Hagrid* can apparate!  

Tip wonders:
Couldn't that just be a ward around Hogwarts and/or Hogsmeade?  That
is, once the train moves past a certain magical barrier, the things
behind that barrier are hidden from view.

> P. S. What *is* the plural of 'magic', anyway?

Magic?

Tip

http://www.livejournal.com/users/tipgardner/
http://www.schnoogle.com/






From lhuntley at fandm.edu  Sat Mar 20 04:22:24 2004
From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 23:22:24 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort *inside* Harry's head (mind)? (Was: Re:
 Wanting or presenting: Was: Snape's reaction to Harry in Slytherin)
In-Reply-To: <c3fslh+kg0h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <30191042-7A26-11D8-BC58-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 93478

SnapesRaven:
> This little voice bothered me throughout the whole book.
> <snip> it doesn't reassure him but rather makes him insecure,
> <snip> I thought the voice might be Voldemort's, since he now
> shares Harry's blood and they had a connection through the scar
> all the time. I just didn't think of Voldemort using such subtle means,
> carefulle 'planting' bad feelings in Harry in order to make him turn
> from everyone he trusted thus far.

Jenjar:
> The voice has perplexed me too.  I was actually noticing it as a
> voice of reason and discretion.  For example in OoP page 730
> "He wheeled around and strode blindly from the hospital wing into the
> teeming corridor where he stood, buffeted by the crowd, the panic
> expanding inside him like poison gas so that his head swam and he
> could not think what to do...  Ron and Hermione, said a voice in his
> head."  It really seems the voice was trying to help him. <snip>
>
> I found an instance of an unhelpful voice on page 778 "Harry was
> listening hard for the slightest sound of movement, but Sirius might
> be gagged now, or else unconscious...or, said an unbidden voice
> inside his head, he might already by dead....I'd have felt it, he
> told himself, his heart now hammering against his Adam's apple.  I'd
> already know..."
>
> This confuses me even more.  The *unbidden* voice clearly isn't
> helping Harry.<snip> I just can't figure it out.  I have so many 
> questions- Where are
> these voices coming from?  Are they all the same voice?  What is the
> voice or voices purpose?
>
> When I was thinking the voice was good I thought maybe it was Lily,
> that somehow as a result of her sacrifice she was able to continue to
> try and protect him by planting advice in his head.  It sure would be
> nice if Harry had some kind of connection to family still.  But there
> is definitely a *bad* voice that taunts or misleads him.
>
> Can anyone else find other instances of the voice?  Any ideas on what
> it is?

First off, sorry for the rather shabby snipping job, I just couldn't 
decide how much I could get away with cutting out.

Speaking of voices, however, there's one instance from PS/SS that has 
always perplexed me:

"Harry jumped to his feet, caught Quirrell by the arm, and hung on as 
tight as he could.  Quirrell screamed and tried to throw Harry off -- 
the pain in Harry's head was building -- he coundn't see -- he could 
only hear Quirrell's terrible shrieks and Voldemort's yells of, "KILL 
HIM! KILL HIM!" and other voices, maybe in Harry's own head crying, 
"Harry! Harry!"" -- PS/SS, US Ed., "The Man With Two Faces," pg. 295.

All the other instances in the books of a "voice"  in Harry's head I 
think of can be chalked up to that little voice *everyone* has in their 
head . . . Everybody *does* have that voice, right? *looks around* 
(Although, there is an interesting passage in OotP in which he has an 
entire *conversation* with it, quoted at the end of this email, if 
anyone's interested.)

Anyway, this particular voice seemed kinda weird . . . why would 
Harry's inner voices be screaming his name?  V. odd, if you ask me.  
Maybe it *is* Lily and James.

Laura

OotP, US Ed., "The Woes of Mrs. Weasley," pg. 166-7.

He had forgotten completely about prefects being chosen in the fifth 
year. He
had been too anxious about the possibility of being expelled to spare a 
thought for
the fact that badges must be winging their way towards certain people. 
But if he
had remembered ... if he had thought about it ... what would he have 
expected?

*Not this,* said a small and truthful voice inside his head.

Harry screwed up his face and buried it in his hands. He could not lie 
to
himself; if he had known the prefect badge was on its way, he would have
expected it to come to him, not Ron. Did this make him as arrogant as 
Draco
Malfoy? Did he think himself superior to everyone else? Did he really 
believe he
was better than Ron?

*No,* said the small voice defiantly.

Was that true? Harry wondered, anxiously probing his own feelings.

*I'm better at Quidditch,* said the voice. But I'm not better at 
anything else.

That was definitely true, Harry thought; he was no better than Ron in 
lessons.
But what about outside lessons? What about those adventures he, Ron and
Hermione had had together since starting at Hogwarts, often risking 
much worse
than expulsion?

*Well, Ron and Hermione were with me most of the time,* said the voice 
in
Harry's head.

Not all the time, though, Harry argued with himself. They didn't fight 
Quirrell
with me. They didn't take on Riddle and the Basilisk. They didn't get 
rid of all
those Dementors the night Sirius escaped. They weren't in that 
graveyard with
me, the night Voldemort returned ...

And the same feeling of ill-usage that had overwhelmed him on the night 
he
had arrived rose again. I've definitely done more, Harry thought 
indignantly. I've
done more than either of them!

*But maybe,* said the small voice fairly, *maybe Dumbledore doesn't 
choose
prefects because they've got themselves into a load of dangerous 
situations ...
maybe he chooses them for other reasons ... Ron must have something you 
don't
...*

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From tipgardner at netscape.net  Sat Mar 20 04:18:26 2004
From: tipgardner at netscape.net (tipgardner)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 04:18:26 -0000
Subject: Why didn't  Lily have to die?
In-Reply-To: <c3g6ol+mijv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3ggmi+i8nh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93479

"justcarol67" wrote:
> > Carol:
> > <<<What *I* don't understand is how he could have thought that
>>*any* mother would stand aside and let him kill her baby.>>>

Tip comments:
I don't think he allows himself the capacity to understand such a love
and despises what he does know of it.  I think he feels that
self-interest and self-preservation are the two highest human instincts.

> Carol:
> Yes, I'm very much aware that LV can't comprehend either love or
> emotion in general and I'm familiar with the quotes you cited and
> their implications. As I said in the part of my post that you
>snipped: "Maybe all those years as a bodiless spirit possessing
>snakes and rats robbed him of any knowledge of human psychology.

Tip points out:
Except that the years of of bodiless spirit followed after Lily's
sacrifice as a direct result of his work that night.  So he would not
have lost human psychology if he knew it before that night, until
after he killed Lily.

Tip

http://www.livejournal.com/users/tipgardner/
http://www.schnoogle.com/





From jenjar2001 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 20 04:25:44 2004
From: jenjar2001 at yahoo.com (jenjar2001)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 04:25:44 -0000
Subject: Voldemort *inside* Harry's head (mind)?
In-Reply-To: <c3gg2n+p8cq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3gh48+m0t9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93480

Maus wrote:

> I believe it is this separated part of Voldemort's mind that 
> sometimes talks to Harry. 

Jenjar responds:

I'm very interested in your theory.  The whole voices thing has 
really got me thinking.  I can definitely see how many of the 
instances sound like LV - especially the "bow to death" instance you 
pointed out.  But...what about the following instances?

Maus wrote:
SNIP
> and other voices, maybe in Harry's own head, crying, 'Harry! Harry!'" Harry 
> hears more than one voice crying 'Harry! Harry!'. One of these voices 
> certainly is Dumbledore coming just in time to pull Harry away from 
> Professor Quirrell, but who does the other voice belong to? 

Jenjar responds:

Why would LV be calling Harry?  It sounds like someone who cares 
about or loves him...like maybe his Mom or Dad?  


Maus wrote:
SNIP

But if he had remembered... if he had thought about 
> it... what would he have expected? Not this, said a small and 
> truthful voice inside his head."   

Jenjar responds:

Again, why would LV say this?  It doesn't seem to accomplish anything 
for LV, it really just validates Harry which again is something I 
would suspect more from someone who loves Harry.


Maus wrote:
SNIP 
> And again in OotP hears a small voice inside his head when the two-
> way mirror fails to contact Sirius: "Nothing happened. The frustrated 
> face looking back out of the mirror was still, definitely, his own... 
> Sirius didn't have his mirror on him when he went through the 
> archway, said a small voice in Harry's head. That's why it's not 
> working... Harry remained quite still for a moment, then hurled the 
> mirror back into the trunk where it shattered."

Jenjar responds:

This instance most of all seems like something a loved one would tell 
him - Why would LV want to give Harry hope?  Why would LV even care 
about this?


I can buy the idea that LV may be one of voices in Harry's head, some 
of the time but I think there's got to be something else going on 
here.  I hope maybe it's a connection to a loved one.  Maybe part of 
his Mom's sacrifice enabled a mindlink between them that extends 
beyond the veil...





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 20 04:29:30 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 04:29:30 -0000
Subject: "Snape's Job"
In-Reply-To: <c3gfld+kp7n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3ghba+nn57@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93481

owlery2003 commented:
It's a tribute to the depth JKR built into Snape's mysterious 
character. I think it's easy to see how Severus gets away with it. 
Nobody "trusts" him (except DD, of course!), and everybody suspects 
him. He's not likeable (to other characters in the books!!). 
 
Ravenclaw Bookworm:
I disagree. Other than Sirius, whose animosity goes back years, most 
adults seem to accept Snape.  
 
<quotes snipped>
 
It's the trio that don't trust Snape. That doesn't mean other *like* 
him, but they trust him and are *interested* in what he has to say 
in his top secret report. <snip>

Carol:
One more example to back up Ravenclaw Bookworm: The other teachers
follow Snape's lead when he suggests that Lockhart is "just the man"
to rescue Ginny from the monster in the Chamber of Secrets (294 Am.
ed.). First Sprout, then Flitwick, and then McGonagall follow Snape's
lead, pressuring Lockhart to act on the boasts he's made. And when
Lockhart leaves, thanks to Snape and his supporters, McGonagall says
with great satisfaction, "Right. That's got *him* out from under our
feet" (294-95). So the other teachers, especially the four heads of
Houses, are a team, and in this instance their leader was Snape.

And BTW, in GoF, at least, Hermione repeatedly reminds Ron that
Dumbledore trusts Snape. I can't remember whether she does the same
thing in OoP. But rather than saying that it's the Trio who doesn't
trust Snape, I'd say it's Ron and Harry. Otherwise I agree completely
with RB's post.

Carol




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 20 04:53:42 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 04:53:42 -0000
Subject: The plural of "magic"? (Was: Harry's shortest stay at Privet Drive)
In-Reply-To: <c3gfn2+tctv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3giom+tmbt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93482

Tip:
 > P. S. What *is* the plural of 'magic', anyway?

Magic?

Carol:
Since you're the second person who's asked, I'll take a stab at it.
"Magic" doesn't seem to have a plural; it's more or less a collective
noun like "art" (as distinct from "the arts"); there are no individual
"magics," as far as I can tell, only "magic" itself. You can have
"*forms* of magic," "*types* of magic," "enchantments," "spells,"
etc., but not "magics."

Does that help at all?

Carol




From lhuntley at fandm.edu  Sat Mar 20 05:09:13 2004
From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 00:09:13 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's shortest stay at Privet Drive
In-Reply-To: <c3gdbv+vm6l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <BACE3D16-7A2C-11D8-9D39-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 93483

Laura (me):
> <<<Yet, I was rereading PS/SS today, and noticed something:
>
> "The train pulled out of the station. Harry wanted to watch Hagrid
> until he was out of sight; he rose in his seat and pressed his nose
> against the window, but he blinked and Hagrid had gone." - PS/SS Us
> ed., pg. 87
>
> *Hagrid* can apparate! HAGRID! Hagrid, who got kicked out of Hogwarts
> in his third year, whose wand is in pieces in a pink umbrella, who has
> arguably shown less magical aptitude than pre-OotP Neville.>>>

JoAnna:
> I always thought that Hagrid had NOT apparated, but merely entered
> Platform 9 and 3/4, perhaps to take the Hogwarts Express, or the
> Knight Bus, or some other form of transportation back to Hogwarts.

It seems sort of unlikely that the platform which Harry took to go back 
to the Dursleys was near platform 9 3/4.  Plus, suddenly disappearing 
from sight seems to be a euphemism JKR uses often for Apparation.

JoAnna:
> As for magical aptitude, I'm of the opinion that Hagrid shows quite a
> lot considering the level of education he's had (and I sincerely hope
> that Hagrid, someday, can somehow get cleared of opening the CoS and
> get the Wizarding equivalent of a G.E.D., if one exists).

Mmm . . . I'm not sure I agree with you on this point at all, but even 
if that's true, the fact remains that Hagrid *hasn't* had much training.

This is sort of a personal thing, I guess, but I'm of the opinion that 
the training students receive at Hogwarts isn't *just* about learning 
specific spells.  Rather, it teaches the students how to *use* and 
*focus* magic.  That is, Hogwarts students don't just learn how to 
do/make certain potions, charms, transfigurations, etc, but how to do 
magic *itself*.  *Is not expressing herself very well*  Are you getting 
what I'm trying to say?  I know it's muddled, sorry.

Therefore, Hagrid is sorely lacking when it comes to having practice 
and knowing the *method* by which one does magic.

JoAnna:
> If Hagrid DID Apparate, however, there's no reason he couldn't have
> learned, if Apparition is a Ministry thing and not a Hogwarts thing.
> Unless there was a prerequisite besides being of age (e.g., passing at
> least one O.W.L.), there's no reason Hagrid couldn't have gone to the
> Ministry and obtained an Apparition license even though he'd been
> expelled from Hogwarts.

Hmm . . . I always kind of thought that Hagrid's expulsion *was* a 
Ministry matter on some level.  I mean, his wand was broken in half, 
and he seems to be forbidden to get another one or use any kind of 
magic at all.  Does the headmaster of Hogwarts actually *have* the 
power to deny a wizard from doing magic *ever again*?

In my opinion, when Hagrid was accused of being responsible for a 
girl's *death*, the MoM was responsible for deciding his fate (I do 
think they were severely influenced by Dumbledore, though).  There 
would have been a trial similar to what Harry experienced in OotP, 
where it was decided that Hagrid would not have to do *serious* time in 
Azkaban, but that he was too "dangerous" to be allowed to have access 
to magic (which, logically, would extend to Apparation).

Laura




From greatelderone at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 20 05:11:01 2004
From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 05:11:01 -0000
Subject: Why didn't  Lily have to die?
In-Reply-To: <c3fqsq+av0o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3gjp5+51g9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93484

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" 
<justcarol67 at y...> wrote:
> What *I* don't
> understand is how he could have thought that *any* mother would 
stand
> aside and let him kill her baby.

Practical experience from his travels no doubt. They're dark wizards 
and though I haven't seen any of it in the books no doubt sacrificing 
children or their blood could be practiced among those versed in the 
dark arts.

> I
> think he was merely focusing on his goal and what he wanted was to 
get
> her out of his way so he could commit the murder he had come to
> commit. But would he have left her there alive if his plan had
> succeeded? I don't think so--unless he wanted an eyewitness who 
would
> inform Dumbledore that the prophecy would not be fulfilled.

Then why tell her to step aside? He could have simply gone through 
her yet he didn't and he actually told her to step aside. This coming 
from a dark lord who had by then earned a reputation for the 
atrocities committed by him and his minions. 

Furthermore I don't buy the fact that he would have killed her 
anyways. It undermines and detracts from her sacrifice for her son if 
she was just going to be next on the hit list. The fact that she was 
going to live through the night yet instead died for her son was 
always why the sacrifice and the protection worked in my honest 
opinion. 




From greatelderone at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 20 05:26:04 2004
From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 05:26:04 -0000
Subject: Why didn't  Lily have to die?
In-Reply-To: <c3etms+b4jv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3gklc+hbfe@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93485

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mad_maxime" <mad_maxime at h...> 
wrote:
> I personally think too much has been made out of Voldemort asking 
Lily
> to stand aside.  I believe he came to Godric's Hollow for one 
reason -
> to kill Harry.  He killed James because he saw him as a possible
> threat to his mission. However, in his arrogance ("silly girl"), I
> don't believe he saw Lily as a threat at all.

How so? She was one of his enemies and one of dumbledore's follower's 
who had successfully survived three adventures against him. I don't 
think he'd be stupid enough to see her as no threat. 

However the fact that PS/SS and POA told us that she died to protect 
her son and the fact that Rowling said that we'd learn something 
significant about her in Book VII just makes one think that there is 
some significance in those last few moments and that Voldemort might 
indeed have had some reluctance to kill her.
 
> I'm not saying he wouldn't have wanted to kill James and Lily anyway
> as they were aurors and his adversaries.  I just believe on that
> particular night, fueled by his knowledge of the Prophecy, he was
> mono-focused on killing Harry.

Yet it would have been easier to AK her and then AK Harry. Yet he 
doesn't and instead he tells her to step aside. Why? He's a dark lord 
and a rather ruthless fellow. Telling a mudblood to step aside so he 
could kill her son instead of killing her and then her son is rather 
uncharacteristic of someone like him. 




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 20 05:31:09 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 05:31:09 -0000
Subject: Voldemort *inside* Harry's head (mind)? (Was: Re: Wanting or presenting: Was: Sn
In-Reply-To: <30191042-7A26-11D8-BC58-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu>
Message-ID: <c3gkut+p4tm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93486

Jenjar:
The voice has perplexed me too. I was actually noticing it as a
voice of reason and discretion.  <snip> It really seems the voice was
trying to help him. <snip>

I found an instance of an unhelpful voice on page 778 <snip>

This confuses me even more.  The *unbidden* voice clearly isn't
helping Harry.<snip> I just can't figure it out.  I have so many 
questions- Where are these voices coming from?  Are they all the same
voice?  What is the voice or voices purpose? <snip>

Laura:
<snip>
All the other instances in the books of a "voice"  in Harry's head I 
think of can be chalked up to that little voice *everyone* has in
their head . . . Everybody *does* have that voice, right? *looks
around* (Although, there is an interesting passage in OotP in which he
has an entire *conversation* with it, quoted at the end of this email,
if anyone's interested.)

<"Small and truthful voice" conversation snipped. Excerpts appear
below, in my post. Carol>


Carol:
 First, I hope I have the attributions correct here. If not, please
accept my apologies.

I wanted to comment on the "small and truthful voice inside [Harry's]
head, with which he has as Laura points out, an entire conversation.
This is quite clearly an example of Harry talking to himself; the
voice refers to itself as "I," but that "I" is as much Harry as the
Harry who is answering it, addressed by the voice as "you," as the
following excerpts illustrate:
 
"Harry screwed up his face and buried it in his hands. He could not
lie *to himself*" <snip>

"'*I'm* better at Quidditch,' said the voice. 'But *I'm* not better at 
anything else.'" 

"'Well, Ron and Hermione were with *me* most of the time,' said the
voice in Harry's head.
 
"'Not all the time, though,' *Harry argued with himself.* 'They didn't
fight Quirrell with me. They didn't take on Riddle and the Basilisk.
They didn't get rid of all those Dementors the night Sirius escaped.
They weren't in that graveyard with me, the night Voldemort returned ...'"
<snip>
"'But maybe,' said the small voice fairly, 'maybe Dumbledore doesn't 
choose prefects because they've got themselves into a load of
dangerous situations ... maybe he chooses them for other reasons ...
Ron must have something *you* don't ...'

As I've tried to indicate with the asterisks (for italics), Harry is
speaking, apparently aloud, to himself, though the voice identified as
"himself" is inside his head. Both perspectives are Harry's own, but
the "small voice" is clearly his better self, calm and fair, opposing
the Harry who wants to sulk because he hasn't been selected as
prefect. The voice, to me, suggests the "still, small voice" of
conscience, the internalized sense of right and wrong that all of us
have but that we don't always listen to. (Not to sound like Gollum,
but Myself and I have these conversations all the time, and Myself
usually wins eventually because she won't leave me (I) alone until I
do what she wants. And we do sometimes speak aloud, or at least the
"I" half of us does.) Call it the Ego and the Superego if you prefer.
(The Id, fortunately, is not involved in the conversation.) But
clearly, this voice has nothing to do with Voldemort or budding
schizophrenia. Its purpose is to help Harry to be happy for Ron.

Whatever may be the case with the other voices that Jenjar is
referring to (and my opinion of the moment is that they're probably
figurative), this particular instance seems to be a perfectly normal
instance of a teenage boy getting himself to see reason. Too bad he
doesn't do it more often.

Carol, who is not listening to herself tell her to get off the
computer and take a shower




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 20 05:38:08 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 05:38:08 -0000
Subject: Why didn't  Lily have to die?
In-Reply-To: <c3ggmi+i8nh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3glc0+q61a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93487

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tipgardner" <tipgardner at n...>
wrote:
> "justcarol67" wrote:
> > > Carol:
> > > <<<What *I* don't understand is how he could have thought that
> >>*any* mother would stand aside and let him kill her baby.>>>
> 
> Tip comments:
> I don't think he allows himself the capacity to understand such a love
> and despises what he does know of it.  I think he feels that
> self-interest and self-preservation are the two highest human instincts.
> 
> > Carol:
> > Yes, I'm very much aware that LV can't comprehend either love or
> > emotion in general and I'm familiar with the quotes you cited and
> > their implications. As I said in the part of my post that you
> >snipped: "Maybe all those years as a bodiless spirit possessing
> >snakes and rats robbed him of any knowledge of human psychology.
> 
> Tip points out:
> Except that the years of of bodiless spirit followed after Lily's
> sacrifice as a direct result of his work that night.  So he would not
> have lost human psychology if he knew it before that night, until
> after he killed Lily.


Oops. I must have been thinking of the years of wandering in which he
was transformed from the handsome boy, Tom Riddle, to the snake-faced
Lord Voldemort, seeker of immortality. At any rate, I do think he had
lost touch with human psychology, if he was ever familiar with it, or
he would have understood that, even with her husband presumably dead
(as Pippin pointed out in another post), a woman will protect her baby.

Carol




From erinellii at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 20 05:44:07 2004
From: erinellii at yahoo.com (Erin)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 05:44:07 -0000
Subject: Voldemort *inside* Harry's head (mind)? (Was: Re: Wanting or presenting: Was: Snape's reaction to Harry in Slytherin)
In-Reply-To: <30191042-7A26-11D8-BC58-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu>
Message-ID: <c3gln7+2fu2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93488

 Laura Ingalls Huntley  wrote:
 Speaking of voices, however, there's one instance from PS/SS that 
has always perplexed me:
> 
> "Harry jumped to his feet, caught Quirrell by the arm, and hung on 
as  tight as he could.  Quirrell screamed and tried to throw Harry 
off --  the pain in Harry's head was building -- he coundn't see -- 
he could only hear Quirrell's terrible shrieks and Voldemort's yells 
of, "KILL HIM! KILL HIM!" and other voices, maybe in Harry's own head 
crying, "Harry! Harry!"" -- PS/SS, US Ed., "The Man With Two Faces," 
pg. 295.
>
 . . . why would Harry's inner voices be screaming his name?  V. odd, 
if you ask me.  
 Maybe it *is* Lily and James.


Erin:
I always thought it was Dumbledore, and maybe someone like McGonagall 
with him.  Mostly because of this conversation between Dumbledore and 
Harry:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I arrived just in time to pull Quirrel off you-"

"It was *you*."

"I feared I might be too late."

"You nearly were, I couldn't have kept him off the Stone much longer-"

"Not the Stone, boy, you- the effort involved nearly killed you.  For 
one terrible moment there, I was afraid it had." --PS/SS, US edition, 
Ch. 17, pg. 297.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Erin:
I think that "It was *you*" is Harry saying he recognized that 
Dumbledore's voice was one of those he had heard at the last moment.



Laura Ingalls Huntley  wrote:
> All the other instances in the books of a "voice"  in Harry's head 
I  think of can be chalked up to that little voice *everyone* has in 
their head . . . Everybody *does* have that voice, right? *looks 
around*  

Erin:
Hear hear!  Far be it from me to discourage anyone from theorizing, 
but refering to one's inner thoughts as a "voice" is a fairly common 
literary device.  At least, I've seen it in plenty of other books 
*I've* read.  Sometimes a spade is just a spade.  

Honestly, though, I can't say I ever actually hear my thoughts as 
seperate voices... sometimes as "my" voice, the one I hear when I 
speak, certainly no one else's.  Sometimes when I think a sentence, 
I'll "see" it inside my head as if it were written on a piece of 
paper.



Erin 




From lhuntley at fandm.edu  Sat Mar 20 04:46:07 2004
From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 23:46:07 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort *inside* Harry's head (mind)? (Was: Re:
 Wanting or presenting: Was: Snape's reaction to Harry in Slytherin)
In-Reply-To: <30191042-7A26-11D8-BC58-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu>
Message-ID: <80883A6C-7A29-11D8-9D39-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 93489

Ergh.  Everybody forget that last post of mine and just read the one by 
"mightymaus75."  I really should have hit the "Get Mail" button once 
more before hit the "Send" button.  Drat.

Anyway, "mightymaus75's" post is quite brilliant, IMO, and she/he says 
everything I was (rather gracelessly) trying to say *and* much, much 
more, including several half-formed ideas I had but was too lazy to put 
into words.

Especially the part about Harry getting more than just a bit of Voldy's 
magic (e.g. parseltounge) from the encounter on Halloween, but also a 
bit of his mind.

This theory feels v. good to me, except for the fact that the voice is 
often benevolent and/or wise (and even once sounds like Hermione), 
which doesn't exactly level w/ the idea that it's a bit of Voldy's 
consciousness stuck in Harry.

Also, "mightmaus75" wrote:
 > In OotP Harry hears a voice inside his head when he is attacked by
 > the Dementors: "But there was no happiness in him... the Dementor's
 > icy fingers were closing on his throat ? the high-patched laughter
 > was growing louder and louder, and a voice spoke inside his
 > head: 'Bow to death, Harry... it might even be painless... I would
 > not know... I have never died.'" We all assume that what Harry heard
 > was the Dementor talking telepathically inside his head, but then the
 > voice says: 'Bow to death, Harry'. Harry was told to bow to death
 > once before. Voldemort used the exact same words in the dark and
 > overgrown graveyard in GoF. Perhaps it wasn't the Dementor Harry
 > heard inside his head.

Actually, Harry *always* hears Voldemort's voice in his head when 
Dementors are near -- as making people relive their "worst memories" is 
what Dementors *do*.  Pre-GoF, Harry's worst memory was his mother's 
death.  Post-GoF, it was the Graveyard Scene.  In both cases, Harry 
heard Voldemort's voice reciting lines from those instances.

Laura



From CoyotesChild at charter.net  Sat Mar 20 05:50:52 2004
From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (Iggy McSnurd)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 23:50:52 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape, trying very hard not to smile? Or is he just allergic to cats?
In-Reply-To: <c3fsqc+9lim@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000001c40e3f$50cf2de0$6501a8c0@Einstein>

No: HPFGUIDX 93490

> <<And just a little P.S: "Thankfully Snape sneezed at almost exactly
> the moment Ron swore." (CoS p. 192 UK Ed)
> Hard to believe, isn't it, that even our mysterious Potion Master who
> has made self-control an art-form are subject to mundane bodily
> reactions like sneezing... Makes him more human, doesn't it? :-))>>
> 

Iggy here:

Sorry about not accrediting this quote... I seem to have lost it's
origins somewhere...

One little observation...

For those who agree, like me, that Snape is not a vampire...  If he were
a vampire, he wouldn't have an allergic reaction to a cat.  (If the
sneeze was a genuine one.)


Iggy McSnurd






From lhuntley at fandm.edu  Sat Mar 20 05:57:38 2004
From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 00:57:38 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort *inside* Harry's head (mind)? (Was: Re:
 Wanting or presenting: Was: Sn
In-Reply-To: <c3gkut+p4tm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <7E27463A-7A33-11D8-9D39-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 93491

One more observation, really quickly before I get off to bed:

Carol:
> First, I hope I have the attributions correct here. If not, please
> accept my apologies.
>
> I wanted to comment on the "small and truthful voice inside [Harry's]
> head, with which he has as Laura points out, an entire conversation.
> This is quite clearly an example of Harry talking to himself; the
> voice refers to itself as "I," but that "I" is as much Harry as the
> Harry who is answering it, addressed by the voice as "you," as the
> following excerpts illustrate:

I'm not sure if I'm following you at all, but . . .

You're right, the small voice refers to itself (and Harry) as 'I' for 
most of the conversation, which I agree shows Harry talking to himself.

However . . .

> "'Not all the time, though,' *Harry argued with himself.* 'They didn't
> fight Quirrell with me. They didn't take on Riddle and the Basilisk.
> They didn't get rid of all those Dementors the night Sirius escaped.
> They weren't in that graveyard with me, the night Voldemort returned 
> ...'"
> <snip>
> "'But maybe,' said the small voice fairly, 'maybe Dumbledore doesn't
> choose prefects because they've got themselves into a load of
> dangerous situations ... maybe he chooses them for other reasons ...
> Ron must have something *you* don't ...'

Along the voice has been saying this like "*I'm* better at quidditch," 
and "Ron and Hermione were with *me* most of the time." Now, suddenly, 
the voice has switched to *you*.

Carol:
> As I've tried to indicate with the asterisks (for italics), Harry is
> speaking, apparently aloud, to himself, though the voice identified as
> "himself" is inside his head. Both perspectives are Harry's own, but
> the "small voice" is clearly his better self, calm and fair, opposing
> the Harry who wants to sulk because he hasn't been selected as
> prefect. The voice, to me, suggests the "still, small voice" of
> conscience, the internalized sense of right and wrong that all of us
> have but that we don't always listen to. <snip>

I agree that when the voice is talking as 'I', it is a very healthy, 
wise, conscience-like voice.  It tells Harry that he can't take all the 
credit for his success, but it also reassures him that he is not 
arrogant like Draco Malfoy.  However, when it switches to 'you', the 
voice is suddenly encouraging self-doubt and jealousy -- "Ron must have 
something *you* don't."  Directly thereafter, Harry recalls Fred and 
George saying that no one in their right mind would make Ron prefect 
and sniggers.  After *that*, he feels profoundly guilty for thinking 
such a thing.

So, *maybe* there is a piece of Tom Riddle in Harry, trying to get him 
to doubt himself and think uncharitable things about his friends -- or 
maybe he's just a frustrated, angry, but ultimately good teenager. 
*shrugs* I haven't completely jumped on with this theory yet, but it 
*does* make sense to be that if Voldemort somehow transfered a bit of 
his power to Harry, a bit of his psyche might have gone along with it 
(perhaps this is the source of their mental connection).  Whether that 
means that the voice Harry hears in his head is sometimes that part of 
Voldy's mind manifesting itself is anybody's guess.

Laura (who is really and truly going to go to bed now.)




From erinellii at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 20 06:16:26 2004
From: erinellii at yahoo.com (Erin)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 06:16:26 -0000
Subject: Imperius Curse: Pure Mechanics or Maintained Mindlink?
In-Reply-To: <c3djq3+esvi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3gnjq+nf31@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93492

 "nkafkafi"  wrote:
 
> Neri:
> Ahm, actually my chromosomes are XY. Not that I have any problems 
> with XX persons, and it is one of the advantages of this forum that 
> what we are writing is much more important than our chromosomes, 
age,  nationality, etc.   

Erin:
Oh, terribly sorry.  I haven't been around enough lately to keep 
track of who is who, I guess....  I'll remember in the future, I 
promise!


> Neri:
> Here there is one point we should be clear about: Winky was not 
> reinforcing an Unforgivable curse. Such a possibility would be 
> unthinkable for both a wizard and a house-elf.

Erin:
True, but doesn't Crouch Jr. say when he's telling all at the end of 
GoF that she used her own brand of magic to tie him to her, or words 
to that effect?  I wonder just how different her spell is from an 
Imperius curse?  

I personally don't believe elves are able to perform Imperius just 
because the type of magic they use is different; for instance, 
Dobby's disappearing act is not considered apparation.  But the 
effect is indistinguishable, at least from our point of view.

I agree that it would be impossible for an elf to independantly 
decide to cast I mperius, but if the elf had been ordered to by its 
wizard master?  I think it would be impossible for the elf *not* to.

Most wizards would never dream of giving such an order, but Crouch 
was already so far outside the law it wouldn't have mattered much to 
him at that point anyway, especially when weighed against the 
consequences of his son escaping.
 
 
> Neri:
 Do you realize that any 
> person that Harry meets, including any of his close friends, could 
be imperio'd with Wormtail in his pocket? Do you sleep soundly with 
this thought in your mind? 8-)

Erin:
Well, Wormtail can only tackle one person at a time, so, yeah, a lot 
more soundly than with the possibility of the Imperius virus. :-p


Erin





From ladypensieve at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 20 06:46:27 2004
From: ladypensieve at yahoo.com (Lady Pensieve)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 06:46:27 -0000
Subject: Hmmm - play on uncovering a pattern
Message-ID: <c3gpc3+8s28@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93493

Sienna brought up an interesting point about the first three books 
matching the second three, with the seventh being a stand alone.

When I read that, I remembered one of the things JKR said in her 
last 'talk' - that this would be Harry's shortest stay at #4...

Do you think that it could be his last?  If Book 7 stands alone - 
then it wouldn't have to begin at the Dursley's.

Any thoughts?

Kathy




From kking0731 at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 20 06:58:40 2004
From: kking0731 at hotmail.com (Kathy King)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 01:58:40 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Unlocking the Hidden Pattern/7 tasks-7 books
Message-ID: <Sea2-F51EWopcnvy3Jd0000232a@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93494


>~<(Laurasia)>~
>
>Who laughed when Sienna apologised for the length of her posts, as
>she herself always write far longer posts and never thought to
>apologise for those who tediously read them.

Kathy's thoughts:

I am not here to judge what others think of this wonderful creative art that 
Jkr has given to all of us, but to accept others opinions in the hope of 
enhancing my own. I, hopefully, refrain from hurting anyone and their views 
(to which every one has their right). We are all here to again, hopefully, 
enhance our thoughts (good or bad) from the other persons perspective.


Didnt this or that person cause you to think of what might be a very good 
prediction?

This is what I feel or hope this site is for. Enhancing our own thoughts and 
ideas but hopefully not at the risk of hurting others.

I have seen a lot of very good people hurt over the way we word our 
objections. I miss these contributors immensely.



Kathy

_________________________________________________________________
Get tax tips, tools and access to IRS forms  all in one place at MSN Money! 
http://moneycentral.msn.com/tax/home.asp




From mpjdekker at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 20 07:27:31 2004
From: mpjdekker at hotmail.com (mightymaus75)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 07:27:31 -0000
Subject: Voldemort *inside* Harry's head (mind)?
In-Reply-To: <c3gh48+m0t9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3grp3+qtgi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93495

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jenjar2001" <jenjar2001 at y...> 
wrote:
> Jenjar responds:
> 
> I'm very interested in your theory.  The whole voices thing has 
> really got me thinking.  

For the whole theory I kindly redirect you to the newly created 
KITTENS & RAINBOWS website: 
http://home.hccnet.nl/p.s.dekker/HPtheory.html


> I can definitely see how many of the 
> instances sound like LV - especially the "bow to death" instance
> you pointed out.  But...what about the following instances?
> 
> Maus wrote:
> SNIP
> > and other voices, maybe in Harry's own head, crying, 'Harry!
> > Harry!'" Harry hears more than one voice crying 'Harry! Harry!'.
> > One of these voices certainly is Dumbledore coming just in time
> > to pull Harry away from Professor Quirrell, but who does the
> > other voice belong to? 
> 
> Jenjar responds:
> 
> Why would LV be calling Harry?  It sounds like someone who cares 
> about or loves him...like maybe his Mom or Dad?  

I'm not sure why the part of Voldemort's mind inside Harry would call 
out his name. I was just trying to present all the instances in which 
Harry hears a voice inside his head as objectively as possible. 

The separated part of Voldemort may have gotten somewhat attached to 
Harry, after all Harry has been his only link to the outside world 
for the past 15 years. The separated part of Voldemort's mind may 
also not have been sure if he himself would survive if Harry was to 
die.
 

> Maus wrote:
> SNIP
> > But if he had remembered... if he had thought about 
> > it... what would he have expected? Not this, said a small and 
> > truthful voice inside his head."   
> 
> Jenjar responds:
> 
> Again, why would LV say this?  It doesn't seem to accomplish
> anything for LV, it really just validates Harry which again is
> something I would suspect more from someone who loves Harry.

Actually he validates the fact that Ron's appointment as prefect over 
Harry is unexpected, not a very constructive contribution. But the 
entire conversation is much more complicated than this. See post 
#93478 by Laura for the entire exchange. 

I have no idea what the separated part of Voldemort's mind might be 
trying to accomplish here. He could be cleverly using reverse 
psychology, trying to make Harry defend himself. Nothing like a bit 
of self-congratulation to build an ego. Or perhaps he is trying to 
make Harry doubt Dumbledore's faith in Harry.


> Maus wrote:
> SNIP 
> > And again in OotP hears a small voice inside his head when the
> > two-way mirror fails to contact Sirius: "Nothing happened. The
> > frustrated face looking back out of the mirror was still,
> > definitely, his own... 
> > Sirius didn't have his mirror on him when he went through the 
> > archway, said a small voice in Harry's head. That's why it's not 
> > working... Harry remained quite still for a moment, then hurled
> > the mirror back into the trunk where it shattered."
> 
> Jenjar responds:
> 
> This instance most of all seems like something a loved one would
> tell him - Why would LV want to give Harry hope?  Why would LV even
> care about this?

The separated part of Voldemort's mind does not give Harry hope, he 
dismisses a very promising option of contacting Sirius beyond the 
veil. As a result Harry smashes the mirror. 

I'm sure the separated part of Voldemort's mind would not like to see 
Harry communicating with Sirius too much. Sirius could function as a 
support and source of advice to Harry. More importantly Harry's 
unresolved feelings about Sirius' death are exactly what the 
separated part of Voldemort's mind needs to slowly steer Harry down 
the dark path.    

  
> I can buy the idea that LV may be one of voices in Harry's head,
> some of the time but I think there's got to be something else going
> on here.  I hope maybe it's a connection to a loved one.  Maybe
> part of his Mom's sacrifice enabled a mindlink between them that
> extends beyond the veil...

Would his mother tell him to kill Sirius?

-Maus





From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Sat Mar 20 07:34:37 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 20 Mar 2004 08:34:37 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort *inside* Harry's head (mind)? (Was: Re: Wanting or presenting: Was: Snape's reaction to Harry in Slytherin)
Message-ID: <20040320073437.36F4F1EC7C0@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 93496

> Erin:
> Hear hear!  Far be it from me to discourage anyone from theorizing, 
> but refering to one's inner thoughts as a "voice" is a fairly common 
> literary device.  At least, I've seen it in plenty of other books 
> *I've* read.  Sometimes a spade is just a spade.  

Viridis:
That was also my overal impression of all these voices - except for those which are clearly atributable (memories of Lily during Dementor attack; Basilisk etc.)
I had an impression that it would be hard for any person who *really* had so many voices in his head, to stay sane. Person's head would simply explode.

But probably it just means I have a intellectual range of a teaspoon.

Cheers, Viridis
________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!



From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Sat Mar 20 07:59:24 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 20 Mar 2004 08:59:24 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why didn't  Lily have to die?
Message-ID: <20040320075924.417351EC7AB@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 93497

"mad_maxime":  
> > I'm not saying he wouldn't have wanted to kill James and Lily anyway
> > as they were aurors and his adversaries.  I just believe on that
> > particular night, fueled by his knowledge of the Prophecy, he was
> > mono-focused on killing Harry.

greatelderone:
> Yet it would have been easier to AK her and then AK Harry. Yet he 
> doesn't and instead he tells her to step aside. Why? He's a dark lord 
> and a rather ruthless fellow. Telling a mudblood to step aside so he 
> could kill her son instead of killing her and then her son is rather 
> uncharacteristic of someone like him. 

Viridis (me):
Actually that's exactly what he has done, if I understand correctly. An because he AK her first this triggered protection for Harry. Anyway it's perfect example for "Nfkali" thesis why in melee fighting it's better to use stnners than heavu guns. 
Let's imagine Voldie:
1.stunning Lily
2.stunning Harry (to on the safe side)
3. picking Harry and going to the kitchen to find a chopper
4. skip the grissly details here
5. going back and considering if he has any use for Lily (if not - see point 4; if yes - see point 4 again)

Why he idn't do it? Mad_maxime's idea about monofocusing and overzealousness (typical Evil Overlord faults) is a good reason. It doesn't fully explain the "stand aside" problem, though.

Cheers, Viridis
________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!



From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Sat Mar 20 08:06:18 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 20 Mar 2004 09:06:18 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] What was that thestral up to?
Message-ID: <20040320080618.8F45F1EC7C0@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 93498

> Jenjar
> In OoP page 282, "A great, reptilian winged horse, just like the ones 
> pulling the Hogwarts carriages, with leathery black wings spread wide 
> like a pterodactyl's rose up out of the tress like a grotesque, giant 
> bird.  It soared in a great circle and then plunged once more into 
> the trees." [snip] So, what was this thestral up to?  Why would 
> JKR show us this scene and then distract us from it?  

Viridis:
It'll sound mundane, but since thestrals are predators/scavengers I'd say it was looking for a bite. Its behaviour looks very much like many birds of prey I have observed.
The thestrals come into importance later on in the book, so that can be the reason for this glimpse.

Cheers, Viridis
________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!



From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Sat Mar 20 08:41:45 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 20 Mar 2004 09:41:45 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fawkes and his feathers
Message-ID: <20040320084145.E0C2E1EC7C3@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 93499

> Eustace_Scrubb:
> According to Ollivander in SS/PS, the phoenix whose feather forms
> Harry's wand core gave just one other feather...which resides in
> Voldemort's wand.[...] 
> Is there any canon or speculation on how/why a phoenix "gives"
> feathers for use in wands?  Whether the fact that only two wands have
> Fawkes' feathers is unusual? [...] 

Interesting point. In CoS, when Harry's at Dumbledore ofice and Faweks is about to transform, it dropes several feathers out of its tail. Also - I can't find reference in this moment - in OotP Fawkes feather appears as a warnin for Order's members.
So we have small contradiction: only two feathers and Fawkes "shedding" all over the books :)
I guess the feathers must be of particular sort, taken from very healthy, powerful and possibley alive creature (don't ask me how it's done with dragons; "The Last Dragon" anyone?). Judging from Ollivander's tale of the unicorn, I can't picture him risking a battle with phoenix, which is very powerful (what's good enough to fight with basilisk, should be good enough to fight with a wandmaker).
So possibly Fawkes willingly agreed to have two of his feathers plucked (by willingly I mean - not protesting violently), but only just two. The feathers picked otherwise have no power transferred (?) so are useless for wandmaking. I also think Fawkes is not only phoenix of the world, but they are very rare, maikng such wands also a rarity, albeit not a great one.  

> Eustace_Scrubb:
> Also, how did Tom Riddle come to be chosen by a wand containing one of
> those feathers?  (I'm assuming he bought it when he was still Tom, as
> I can't quite imagine Voldemort strolling into Ollivanders's and
> purchasing a wand in the usual way.  "Yew wood, phoenix feather core,
> 12 inches...excellent for evil overlord work!")

Yew - tree of great power (Ged anyone?), connected with death and unerworld. Fitting. I guess the answer is given by Ollivander himself: "The wand of great power. For a great wizard, because Voldie did great things, horrible, but great."
Anyway, wandmakers seem to be "excluded" from good/evil coflict. They may be 
fully impartial, which is a part of their magic. That's why there is so few of them - very few people can attain such level of impartiality.

Cheers, Viridis
________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!



From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 20 08:47:58 2004
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 08:47:58 -0000
Subject: Vague Thoughts on Apparation - Conclusion Confusion
In-Reply-To: <c3g08o+f8sh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3h0fu+um6l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93500

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
> I'm confused about apparation and how the students learn it. Curious
> about how other see the process.
> 
> ...edited... none the less, if we use all magic as an example, it 
> seems there would be an exception made while the students learn to 
> apparate at school.
> 
> It seems that both Percy and the Twins took there Apparation test at
> the beginning of the summer holiday, which implies to me that they
> learned the process during the previous school year.
> 
> So, does this sound reasonable to everyone, or am I way off base?
> 
> Just wondering.
> 
> bboy_mn

> Carol:
> We know that the Twins turned seventeen in April of their sixth 
> year. I had assumed that they practiced at home over the summer, 
> maybe under their father's supervision, before taking their tests.

bboy_mn:
OK, in GoF, we find out from Mr Weasley that Apparation is difficult
and dangerous. If that's true, and we have no reason to doubt him,
then why would the wizard world leave something this difficult and
dangerous up to the parents to teach their children?

To me that doesn't make sense, all other necessary magic it taught at
school, why would apparation be excluded from this?


> Carol:
> Of course, we don't know when his birthday is, but I think he must 
> not have turned seventeen until just before his seventh year or he 
> would have taken his test the previous summer.

> Annemehr:
> I got the idea that learning to apparate has nothing to do with 
> Hogwarts. That would mean that everyone turning seventeen during
> a given school year would go home for the summer and *then* learn 
> how to apparate.

bboy_mn:
One of the points I tried to make is that I don't understand why
everyone is so obsessed with the idea that you absolutely under no
circumstances can Apparate until you are 17 years old?

You can't do any kind of magic outside of school until you are 17
years old. Or as Carol pointed out, you can't do any 'cast' or wand
magic out side of school. Yet we see the kids doing all kinds of cast
wand magic inside of school; in class and out. 

Why do people see that in-school wand magic as OK, but for some reason
they have isolated Apparation as absolutely forbidden under any
circumstance? Why can't or why don't you see Apparation as just
another form of magic? 

The law that says students can't cast spells until they are of age, is
the same law that says you can't Apparate until you are of age (and
pass your Apparation test). 

Apparation is a difficult and dangerous form of magic, the teaching of
which is best left to professionals in my opinion.


> Annemehr:
> Percy is four years older than Ron; he was in his fifth year when 
> Ron was in his first. He was probably born in the summer of 1977, so
> that he didn't turn 17 until he left Hogwarts. He got his apparition
> license during the summer of 1995 and enjoyed Apparating here and
> there just to show off the fact that he could.

bboy_mn:
On the issue of Percy's age, if we are going to make him young in
order to account for his delayed Apparation test, then he has to start
 Hogwarts at age 10, which means his birthday has to be Sept, Oct,
Nov, or Dec. If it's earlier then that, then he would be 11 like
everyone else when he started school. 

So Percy starts 6th year at age 15 and is very quickly age 16 like
everyone else. People learn to Apparate at school in their 6th year,
but Percy doesn't turn 17 until after the start of 7th year. Since he
is tied up at school, he can't take his test until after the end of
the school year. Which seems to be how the story goes.

My next point, is that everyone seem to take their Apparation test
during the Summer. People seem to have taken that to indicate they
couldn't possibly learn Apparation at school. Sorry, I don't follow
that line of thought.

The students are in a boarding school, their freedom of movement is
tightly restricted. From what I can tell, they only get to leave the
castle for a Hogsmeade visit three times per school year; once per
term, and of course, holidays, but that seems like it would be
restricted to family time. 

So, you learn to Apparate at a boarding school, logically your first
opportunity to take the Apparation test would be when school quits for
the summer holiday. The summer Apparation test that many people seem
to think confirm Apparation not being taught at school, for me,
actually make me think that it is indeed taught at school as I pointed
out above. You learn at school, the school year ends, you go to the
Ministry, and take the test; a logocal sequence of events.

The last point is Hermione's continued insistance that you can't
Apparate at Hogwarts. But just outside the gate of Hogwarts, one must
assume, you can Apparate. Why is that a problem? Students go into
Hogmeade on Hogsmeade weekends and seem to survive the effort. Why
would it be such a terrible stuggle for them to walk into town for
Apparation lessons? Actually, why even bother to walk all the way into
town, when you can just step outside the gate?

Certainly, it seems that it could and would very logically be taught
during 6th year so that students would be ready to take the test as
soon as they turned 17 and had a break from school. More importantly,
I WANT it taught during 6th year and AT school because I want to find
out all the details on how it works and what it feels like. 

So the key points I need resolved are-

1.) Why do people feel that students can practice other magic at
school, but for some reason are forbidden to practice Apparation even
while under the supervision of teachers?

2.) Tied in with above, why are people so rigid about the age 17
restriction for Apparation, yet the school is not that rigid when it
comes to other magic?

3.) Why would something this difficult and dangerous NOT be taught at
school? The difficulty and danger would seem to imply that it MUST be
taught at school; taught by professionals.

4.) Why would summer tests rule out the course being taught at the school?


In conclusion, from previous discussion on this matter, most people
seem to take the same position that Annemehr and Carol are taking, but
frankly, the logic of it escapes me. My own logic tells me it must be
taught at school, and the very same evidence they are using to argue
against it, is the evidence I use to argue for it.

So, what's up with that?

bboy_mn










From drednort at alphalink.com.au  Sat Mar 20 09:10:53 2004
From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 20:10:53 +1100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Vague Thoughts on Apparation - Conclusion Confusion
In-Reply-To: <c3h0fu+um6l@eGroups.com>
References: <c3g08o+f8sh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <405CA54D.8709.364F95@localhost>

No: HPFGUIDX 93501

On 20 Mar 2004 at 8:47, Steve wrote:

> So the key points I need resolved are-
> 
> 1.) Why do people feel that students can practice other magic at
> school, but for some reason are forbidden to practice Apparation even
> while under the supervision of teachers?

I think most of this is purely and simply tied up with the fact 
that this is seen as similar to the way driving is handled in 
Britain.

Now, I don't have first hand knowledge of the UK - but it's my 
impression that unlike the US where Driver's Ed is a reasonably 
common high school course, British students do not have an 
equivalent subject in their schools. Kids do not learn to drive at 
school.

The same thing, BTW, applies in Australia - schools are just seen 
as having absolutely no involvement whatsoever in teaching kids to 
drive. It's something to be done completely, outside of school - 
not something to waste valuable school time on.

>From Americans I know, I have the impression that in the US, senior 
high school students (maybe not all - but a lot of them) tend to 
know if they have been accepted to a college or not sometime fairly 
early in their final year of high school. Their admissions to 
college are primarily based on the grades they receive *before* 
their final year of high school. They may well have to maintain the 
same standard to keep the place they've been offered - but the 
hardest work of getting a place has already been done.

In the UK - and it's this way in Australia as well, so I remember 
the pressure - your final results at the end of your final year of 
secondary schooling are the most *critical* determinant of your 
access to higher education.

What this means is that schools make the academic studies their 
students are doing, the single most critical part of their final 
school years. Time spent teaching kids to drive would be seen as a 
severe waste of the valuable resource of *time* that could be spent 
on studies that matter.

Now, while Hogwarts, isn't a typical British school in many ways, 
and the career paths are not the same, I think these deeply 
ingrained attitudes may be one reason why people find it simply 
hard to believe a school will waste its time on teaching students 
the skill that is analogous to driving. That's not the place of a 
school - a school will be concentrating on grades in the subjects 
that matter.

Hogwarts will be concentrating on NEWTS - and *everything* else will be a luxury.

> 2.) Tied in with above, why are people so rigid about the age 17
> restriction for Apparation, yet the school is not that rigid when it
> comes to other magic?

Maybe because of the legal status.

Look - my school - not British, Australian - played hard and loose 
with many of the age restrictions normally imposed in Australian 
society.

We were actually *encouraged* to drink in moderation in our final 
year - even though we were nearly all still underage (drinking age 
is 18 in Australia). At one stage, smoking had even been tolerated 
as well in the oldest students - but they'd stopped tolerating that 
by the time I was that age. We routinely saw films with R 
certification (not to be shown to anyone under 18) from age 14 and 
15.

But under *no* circumstances would the school have tolerated us 
driving underage. I'm not sure exactly why that was - but it was 
treated entirely differently.

And I think that's a fairly common experience. It may influence 
some people.
 
> 3.) Why would something this difficult and dangerous NOT be taught at
> school? The difficulty and danger would seem to imply that it MUST be
> taught at school; taught by professionals.

Well - the same could be said about driving.

And in the US, Driver's Ed does seem to be quite routine.

But it's not elsewhere. It's not part of the culture - and I think 
a lot of the reason for that comes down to the reasons I mentioned 
earlier.

Just culturally, this is *NOT* something schools waste their time 
with - and whether it really is a waste of time, or not - that is 
the common attitude.

Believe me, I know - my office has made several attempts over 
recent years to get some sort of Driver Education into Victorian 
schools - because we think it would improve driver safety. The 
Education Department gives us only the barest, most lukewarm signs 
of any encouragemment whatsoever.

That's the way it is. Schools are for academic pursuits. The final 
years of school are to prepare students for such pursuits. Driving 
is something to be done elsewhere.
 
> 4.) Why would summer tests rule out the course being taught at the school?

I don't think it would.

> In conclusion, from previous discussion on this matter, most people
> seem to take the same position that Annemehr and Carol are taking, but
> frankly, the logic of it escapes me. My own logic tells me it must be
> taught at school, and the very same evidence they are using to argue
> against it, is the evidence I use to argue for it.

I think it's cultural - rightly or wrongly, people are viewing this 
situation as analagous to driving lessons - and in most places, 
those are not things that schools concern themselves with.

Besides that... look, I honestly can't believe that any boarding 
school with a duty of care to its students would sanguinely teach 
them a skill they could use to travel vast distances without any 
hope of adult supervision (and yes, at 17, the students may be 
legally adults in the Wizarding World - but somehow I doubt 
Hogwarts really thinks of them that way). In that sense, it's not 
exactly equivalent to driving - with driving the skill alone isn't 
enough - you have to have a vehicle.

Some students are going to be old enough and qualified anyway - but 
I think you'd want to keep the numbers as controllable as possible 
(-8


Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia




From RACH911 at aol.com  Sat Mar 20 09:41:38 2004
From: RACH911 at aol.com (rach9112000)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 09:41:38 -0000
Subject: Ron and Hermione's part in the Shortest Summer.
Message-ID: <c3h3ki+rskb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93502

I was reading the posts on Harry's shortest stay at Privet Drive and 
I couldn't see where anyone had mentioned that it is quite likely 
Ron and Hermione already know why Harry's stay will be so short. At 
the end of book 5 (the last page - 870 US version) 
Mrs Weaseley says:
 Harry, we'll have you away from there as soon as we can".
Ron says: We'll see you soon mate"
and Hermione says: "Really soon Harry...We promise."
  It would not surprise me if Ron and Hermione are already aware of 
a plan in place to get Harry away from the Dursleys ASAP. I 
previously suggested in earler posts that it was Dumbledore's idea 
to get `Hermione to persuade Harry to start the DA classes, because 
Dumbledore could not speak to Harry himself. So this could 
corroborate with the above idea. 
Just a thought, Rachel.




From greatraven at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 20 11:41:25 2004
From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 11:41:25 -0000
Subject: "Snape's Job"
In-Reply-To: <c3gdff+dujj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3hal5+echr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93503

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "p_implies_q" <p 
Snape gets his kicks almost 
> exclusively from doing dangerous work and feeling useful (or 
> important, if you like).  Since there's not much glamour 
> associated with being a school teacher, no wonder he's not 
the 
> life of the party.
> 
> Alice

Bite your tongue! If there's so little glamour, how come there are 
all those movies about a school teacher who turns around the 
lives of awful/deprived/whatever students? :-) As for Snape, who 
of all the Hogwarts staff, pray tell, gets all the Mary Sue tales 
written about him? Not Dumbledore, I bet, or Professor Flitwick!  
;-)

Sue B (schoolmarm and librarian extraordinaire)




From hiteshl at vsnl.com  Sat Mar 20 10:57:13 2004
From: hiteshl at vsnl.com (hi_t22000)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 10:57:13 -0000
Subject: Ron's knowledge of the Pettigrew-Sirius encounter in 1981
Message-ID: <c3h829+6h6b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93504

Referring to PoA (pages 159-160, Bloomsbury Paperback), Ron tells
Harry that his father told him that Pettigrew's mother received only
Peter's finger along with the Order of Merlin after his fatal
encounter with Sirius. 

How did Ron know this? According to Ch 11 in PoA, Ron said this to
Harry on the morning after the Trio overheard Mcgonagall & co in
Hogsmeade. The matter of Pettigrew's finger didn't come up then. And
Ron did not possibly talk to his father that night. And if he had
known this from before, was Ron hiding from Harry the story of who
caused the murder of the Potters?  





From alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Mar 20 12:08:48 2004
From: alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk (alshainofthenorth)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 12:08:48 -0000
Subject: Ron's knowledge of the Pettigrew-Sirius encounter in 1981
In-Reply-To: <c3h829+6h6b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3hc8g+tnbv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93505

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hi_t22000" <hiteshl at v...> 
wrote:
> Referring to PoA (pages 159-160, Bloomsbury Paperback), Ron tells
> Harry that his father told him that Pettigrew's mother received only
> Peter's finger along with the Order of Merlin after his fatal
> encounter with Sirius. 
> 
> How did Ron know this? According to Ch 11 in PoA, Ron said this to
> Harry on the morning after the Trio overheard Mcgonagall & co in
> Hogsmeade. The matter of Pettigrew's finger didn't come up then. And
> Ron did not possibly talk to his father that night. And if he had
> known this from before, was Ron hiding from Harry the story of who
> caused the murder of the Potters?

Fudge said in The Three Broomsticks that the worst of Black's deeds 
wasn't publicly known or something to that effect. There are two 
crimes attributed to him, first, the betrayal of the Potters to 
Voldemort, second, killing thirteen people. Only the latter is public 
knowledge -- Stan knows about it, for example, but there is still 
nothing about it that connects it to the Potters.

So what Ron knows, there and then, is that the man who went up 
against Sirius Black was blasted to smithereens, with the cut-off 
finger the biggest part of him they ever found. But it doesn't follow 
that he knows anything about the betrayal of Harry's parents.

Alshain 




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sat Mar 20 13:44:09 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 13:44:09 -0000
Subject: The Podmore Connection--Percy as DD's Spy
In-Reply-To: <c3gboq+s61p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3hhr9+m28s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93506

> Potioncat:
> > I agree, with Pippen, I think Percy is acting for the good of the 
> > Order. 
>snip< 


Kimberly wrote: 
> I really don't think Percy is acting for the Order.  There are 
> plenty of DD's spys in the Ministry (Kingsley Shacklebolt, Arthur, 
> Tonks), and everyone in the Order is allowed to know about them.  
It 
> doesn't seem like DD to have Percy do such hurtful things to his 
> family when it's really not needed. 
>snip<

Potioncat again:
I'll admit, I don't want it to be pride that has caused this rift in 
the Weasley family.  So maybe I'm grasping at straws here.  I would 
prefer it to be that Percy is working for the Order and has used the 
rift as his cover. (And I'm sticking to that story until it is 
disproved by JKR, herself)  At any rate, I hope we see a reunion 
before the end of the series.

Also, sorry for misspelling Pippin in the first post.
Potioncat 




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sat Mar 20 13:58:43 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 13:58:43 -0000
Subject: Ron's knowledge of the Pettigrew-Sirius encounter in 1981
In-Reply-To: <c3hc8g+tnbv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3himj+qmpm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93507


Alshain wrote: 
> So what Ron knows, there and then, is that the man who went up 
> against Sirius Black was blasted to smithereens, with the cut-off 
> finger the biggest part of him they ever found. But it doesn't 
follow 
> that he knows anything about the betrayal of Harry's parents.


Potioncat:
No, but Draco does.  He taunts Harry about wanting revenge. (He of 
course, seems to think Black was the one who betrayed them.)
Potioncat




From theadimail at yahoo.co.in  Sat Mar 20 12:51:59 2004
From: theadimail at yahoo.co.in (theadimail)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 12:51:59 -0000
Subject: Harry's patronus, a flint?
Message-ID: <c3hepf+l3pg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93508

Hi,
  In OOTP, in the Hog's Head chapter,Fred and George say that they 
did not tell others about Harry's patronus-bringing ability, because 
Molly had warned them not to.  And it is implied that the others 
didn't know anything about this fact.
  But, in the thired book, Harry invoked his patronus in front of a 
stadium full of quidditch watchers to ward off Malfoy and gang 
posturing as dementors, remember? How could it not have gotten out 
that Harry knew how to invoke his patronus after that?
Bye
ADI





From BrwNeil at aol.com  Sat Mar 20 14:02:33 2004
From: BrwNeil at aol.com (BrwNeil at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 09:02:33 EST
Subject: Harry as DADA Professor
Message-ID: <24.519a35e0.2d8da8f9@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93509

No DADA Professor has lasted more than one year and I see no reason for 
Rowling to end this tradition.

Although she hints in interviews that Harry would not be happy as a teacher, 
she has shown in OotP that just the opposite is true; Harry loves teaching and 
passing on his abilities to his fellow students.

Could Harry ultimately end up filling the DADA position.  He would be 
extremely young, but certainly more qualified than some who have held the position 
(Umbridge, Lockhart).  If he destroys Voldemort, who in the wizard world would 
dispute his abilities.



Neil


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From meriaugust at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 20 14:31:53 2004
From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 14:31:53 -0000
Subject: Hmmm - play on uncovering a pattern
In-Reply-To: <c3gpc3+8s28@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3hkkp+6csg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93510

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lady Pensieve" 
<ladypensieve at y...> wrote:
> Sienna brought up an interesting point about the first three books 
> matching the second three, with the seventh being a stand alone.
> 
> When I read that, I remembered one of the things JKR said in her 
> last 'talk' - that this would be Harry's shortest stay at #4...
> 
> Do you think that it could be his last?  If Book 7 stands alone - 
> then it wouldn't have to begin at the Dursley's.
> 
> Any thoughts?
> 
> Kathy

I agree wholeheartedly. I think (though I nearly shudder at the 
thought) that book 6 will end with a cliffhanger. Something huge 
will happen right at the end of the school year, and the trio will 
never even make it to the Hogwarts Express. I'm talking big, like an 
attack on the school by LV himself. Then, of course, we'll have to 
wait 2 or 3 years for the resolution, but hey, that makes book 7 a 
guaranteed blockbuster, right?
Meri 





From annemehr at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 20 14:49:09 2004
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 14:49:09 -0000
Subject: Hmmm - play on uncovering a pattern
In-Reply-To: <c3gpc3+8s28@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3hll5+o4f7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93511

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lady Pensieve"
<ladypensieve at y...> wrote:
> Sienna brought up an interesting point about the first three books 
> matching the second three, with the seventh being a stand alone.
> 
> When I read that, I remembered one of the things JKR said in her 
> last 'talk' - that this would be Harry's shortest stay at #4...
> 
> Do you think that it could be his last?  If Book 7 stands alone - 
> then it wouldn't have to begin at the Dursley's.
> 
> Any thoughts?
> 
> Kathy

Oh, I hope not.  I've really enjoyed the gradual shift in power from
the Dursleys to Harry through the books, aided and abetted by Harry's
WW friends (the one who wrote "Harry Potter, the Cupboard Under the
Stairs..." on the Hogwarts letter, Sirius, the King's Cross sendoff
party).  I'm really hoping to see Harry come of age at Privet Drive,
and give the Dursleys to know that he's allowed to do magic now, and
at last have *all* the power in the relationship.  I'd like to see him
shame them in how he uses (or doesn't use) it.

Just my personal opinion!  :-)

Annemehr





From quigonginger at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 20 15:10:17 2004
From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 15:10:17 -0000
Subject: Vague Thoughts on Apparation - Conclusion Confusion
In-Reply-To: <c3h0fu+um6l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3hmsp+g4ro@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93512

Steve wrote:
> > It seems that both Percy and the Twins took there Apparation test 
at
> > the beginning of the summer holiday, which implies to me that they
> > learned the process during the previous school year.
> > 
> > So, does this sound reasonable to everyone, or am I way off base?
> > 
> > Just wondering.
> > 
> > bboy_mn
> 
> > Carol:
> > We know that the Twins turned seventeen in April of their sixth 
> > year. I had assumed that they practiced at home over the summer, 
> > maybe under their father's supervision, before taking their tests.
> 
> bboy_mn:
> OK, in GoF, we find out from Mr Weasley that Apparation is difficult
> and dangerous. If that's true, and we have no reason to doubt him,
> then why would the wizard world leave something this difficult and
> dangerous up to the parents to teach their children?
> 
> To me that doesn't make sense, all other necessary magic it taught 
at
> school, why would apparation be excluded from this?

> > Annemehr:
> > I got the idea that learning to apparate has nothing to do with 
> > Hogwarts. That would mean that everyone turning seventeen during
> > a given school year would go home for the summer and *then* learn 
> > how to apparate.

Now Ginger:  I snipped as much as I could, trying to get in all the 
good arguements. 

I have to wonder if the key isn't necessity.  People have been using 
driving/drivers licenses as an example, and I think it is a good one. 

Even in the US, the ages of driving vary from state to state.  Here 
in North Dakota, you can get a permit at 13 and a license at 14.  
People in populated states think we're nuts. They have public 
transportation.  Most of the rural kids were driving before that, on 
the farm.  It is a matter of necessity.  I won't bore you with OT 
details; let's just say that I have had to drive 90 miles to buy 
shoes.  Really.

In the WW we have all sorts of other forms of transportation.  Once 
the kids reach Hogwarts age, where do they have to go?  School, for 
which they have the Hogwarts Express.  If Ron wants to visit Luna, he 
has a broom (provided he takes care that the Muggle residents of 
Ottery St. Catchpole don't see him).  If he wants to visit Neville or 
go to Diagon Alley, there's floo.  When they went to the QWC, it was 
a portkey.  They really don't *need* to apparate, unless they are 
flying to the MoM to rescue a Godfather with no thestrals around, and 
that is probably a rare occurance in the life of a Wizarding 
child.:)  Muggle-born children have Muggle transportation, and can 
teach the Wizard-borns to use it if necessary.

In short (I know, too late), apparating probably is a big deal in the 
eyes of a kid, but isn't needed with all the other ways of getting 
around in their world.  Since we know it can be dangerous, even by 
Wizarding standards, they probably put it off until it is needed.  If 
floo powder didn't exist, I think we'd have a different story.

As to whether it is taught in school, again, good points made by 
all.  I guess it comes from what you're used to.  I still remember 
teeaching my sisters, and get a wicked laugh thinking of Snape 
clutching his wand and yelling "No, no, clutch in, *then* shift, 
Dunderhead!"  My personal thought is that it would be taught in 
Hogwarts, but that may be due to my strong desire to see CrabbenGoyle 
splinch themselves, leaving behind only their utterly stupid 
expressions.  Maybe then we'll actually hear them speak.

Ginger, with a bit of a mean streak today, it seems.




From annemehr at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 20 16:14:28 2004
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 16:14:28 -0000
Subject: Vague Thoughts on Apparation - Conclusion Confusion
In-Reply-To: <c3h0fu+um6l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3hql4+q6e3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93513

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
 
> The law that says students can't cast spells until they are of age, is
> the same law that says you can't Apparate until you are of age (and
> pass your Apparation test). 
> 
> Apparation is a difficult and dangerous form of magic, the teaching of
> which is best left to professionals in my opinion.

Annemehr:
This seems to be a distillation of bboy_mn's impression.  I do think
it's quite reasonable.  The rest of this post is about how I think my
different impression is also reasonable; I can't prove I'm right, and
I wouldn't really be surprised if I'm wrong.  ;-)

bboy_mn quoted:
> > Annemehr:
> > Percy is four years older than Ron; he was in his fifth year when 
> > Ron was in his first. He was probably born in the summer of 1977, so
> > that he didn't turn 17 until he left Hogwarts. He got his apparition
> > license during the summer of 1995 and enjoyed Apparating here and
> > there just to show off the fact that he could.

Annemehr:
Actually, those aren't my words.  That's me quoting the Lexicon. 
Right afterward I wrote about how I didn't believe it and that Percy
must have turned 17 before he left Hogwarts -- in other words, I agree
with you (I also noted that the Lexicon ought to have had "1994" in
place of "1995," if anyone's doing the math).

> bboy_mn:
> The last point is Hermione's continued insistance that you can't
> Apparate at Hogwarts. But just outside the gate of Hogwarts, one must
> assume, you can Apparate. Why is that a problem?

Annemehr:
I did note that as a possibility, and added that it could be a reason
for Harry never to notice older students doing Apparition lessons
during the school year.  So, a point for you!

bboy_mn:
> Certainly, it seems that it could and would very logically be taught
> during 6th year so that students would be ready to take the test as
> soon as they turned 17 and had a break from school. More importantly,
> I WANT it taught during 6th year and AT school because I want to find
> out all the details on how it works and what it feels like.

Annemehr:
Hmmm...what year *would* they teach it at Hogwarts?  If it was during
sixth year, then Percy would have had to wait more than a year between
Apparition lessons at school and taking his test after seventh year. 
I suppose that's not an insurmountable problem, but it does make
things a little bit awkward.

I'm sure you will find out all about Apparating, though, because I'm
sure Harry will learn to Apparate, no matter how he's taught.  *If* my
impressions are correct, I figure someone (I'm hoping it's Arthur)
will see to it that Harry learns and will take him for his Apparition
test at the Ministry.  Interestingly, *if* Hermione does turn out to
be younger than Harry, and *if* students don't get their license until
the summer after they turn 17, then either Hermione will spend the
seventh book not being able to Apparate, or somebody's going to be
bending rules again...(lots of "ifs" in that paragraph!)

bboy_mn:
> So the key points I need resolved are-
> 
> 1.) Why do people feel that students can practice other magic at
> school, but for some reason are forbidden to practice Apparation even
> while under the supervision of teachers?

Annemehr:
Well, I wouldn't be stunned if Hogwarts did teach it, I was just
giving my (reasonable, I think) impressions.  I think I was thinking
it was like learning to drive, which traditionally was taught by a
family member, even though nowadays lots of people learn at school or
from professionals (and I wasn't aware of the British way of doing it
one way or the other).

bboy_mn:
> 2.) Tied in with above, why are people so rigid about the age 17
> restriction for Apparation, yet the school is not that rigid when it
> comes to other magic?

Annemehr:
I suppose, because Apparation can take you almost anywhere.  It'd be
an awful lot of power to hand a teenager, and perhaps the Ministry
feels it's inappropriate to even teach to someone until they're of
age.  After all, if sixteen-year-olds are learning it at Hogwarts, a
little matter of not yet being licensed isn't necessarily going to
stop them from trying it out on a Hogsmeade weekend!

bboy_mn:
> 3.) Why would something this difficult and dangerous NOT be taught at
> school? The difficulty and danger would seem to imply that it MUST be
> taught at school; taught by professionals.

Annemehr:
Again, maybe it's like driving, which is also difficult and dangerous.
 I don't know whether your state is different, but in Pennsylvania
*any* licensed driver can teach a teenager how to drive, it doesn't
have to be a professional.  The proof of the driving lessons comes in
whether or not you pass the test.  A policy that a student driver
*must* learn from a professional driver's ed. teacher might seem
reasonable, but around here at least, there's no such policy.

bboy_mn:
> 4.) Why would summer tests rule out the course being taught at the
school?

Annemehr:
It wouldn't, but as Shaun points out, NEWTs are much more important
(I'd forgotten all about those).  

bboy_mn:
> In conclusion, from previous discussion on this matter, most people
> seem to take the same position that Annemehr and Carol are taking, but
> frankly, the logic of it escapes me. My own logic tells me it must be
> taught at school, and the very same evidence they are using to argue
> against it, is the evidence I use to argue for it.
> 
> So, what's up with that?
> 
> bboy_mn

Annemehr:
I don't know what's up with that!  :D  The books seem to imply that
one takes the test and gets licensed over the summer, but I don't see
anything you can really use to argue whether or not one is taught
Apparition at Hogwarts or outside of it.  I was just giving my
impressions and arguing that they were at least reasonable.  I guess
we'll find out in book 6, right?  :-)

Annemehr
who will be absolutely stunned if JKR doesn't have Harry learn to
Apparate one way or another






From peckham at cyberramp.net  Sat Mar 20 16:21:40 2004
From: peckham at cyberramp.net (luna_loco)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 16:21:40 -0000
Subject: Harry as DADA Professor
In-Reply-To: <24.519a35e0.2d8da8f9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <c3hr2k+j804@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93514

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, BrwNeil at a... wrote:
> No DADA Professor has lasted more than one year and I see no reason for 
> Rowling to end this tradition.
> 
> Although she hints in interviews that Harry would not be happy as a
teacher, 
> she has shown in OotP that just the opposite is true; Harry loves
teaching and 
> passing on his abilities to his fellow students.
> 
> Could Harry ultimately end up filling the DADA position.  He would be 
> extremely young, but certainly more qualified than some who have
held the position 
> (Umbridge, Lockhart).  If he destroys Voldemort, who in the wizard
world would 
> dispute his abilities.
> 
> Neil

There are two problems with Harry having the desire to become a
professor.  The first is the issue of did Harry enjoyed teaching or
resisting Umbridge?  My personal guess is that true answer is in the
middle of the range of possibilities.

The second and bigger problem is Harry's desire to deal with the
realities of being a Hogwart's professor versus teaching a small group
of volunteers who were motivated to learn.  While Harry gets great
satisfaction from seeing Nevile's improvements over time, whould he
get equal satisfaction from dealing fairly with a future Malfoy in his
class, grading homework, or any of the many other administrative tasks
that a faculty member is responsible for?

Allen




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sat Mar 20 16:21:48 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 16:21:48 -0000
Subject: The Podmore Connection--Percy as DD's Spy
In-Reply-To: <c3gboq+s61p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3hr2s+e1em@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93515

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kimberly" 
<Kimberly.Tarasenko at C...> wrote:

> I really don't think Percy is acting for the Order.  There are 
> plenty of DD's spys in the Ministry (Kingsley Shacklebolt, Arthur, 
> Tonks), and everyone in the Order is allowed to know about 
them.  It > doesn't seem like DD to have Percy do such hurtful 
things to his  family when it's really not needed.  Also, I think the 
assumption  vocalized by the twins early in the book is true: 
 "Dad reckons Fudge only wants Percy in his office because he 
wants  to use him to spy on the faimly - and Dumbledore."  If that 
is true,  then the ministry wants Percy to continue to be on good 
terms with his family so he can be an effective spy.  Otherwise, 
what's the  point?  If he was acting as spy for the Order, he would 
retain the  bonds with his family that the ministry presumably 
wanted to use.<<

Well, Arthur was obviously wrong, because Percy continued his 
upward rise even after he broke ties with his family. As for 
Dumbledore, this is war, not kindergarten. We know he can 
make decisions that will cause pain and heartache if he thinks 
he must.  Suppose you were trying to get Neville Chamberlain's 
government to oppose the Axis in WW2: would you pass up 
information from one of his aides to spare his mother's 
feelings?

Dumbledore knows The Order was infiltrated during the last war. 
The thought of it happening again must be his worst nightmare. 
It would be prudent for him to have some operatives that aren't 
known to the others. And have you noticed that he  seems to be 
able to anticipate Fudge's every move? *How* did he know that 
the time and venue of Harry's hearing had been changed? And in 
time to fetch Mrs. Figg, who can't apparate?  It can't have been 
Shacklebolt, since he didn't know about it when he was 
speaking to Arthur a few moments before. It can't have been 
Tonks since she was off duty. Was Percy's rift with his family the  
"lucky mistake" that got Dumbledore to the Ministry three hours 
early ? 

The Order was going into hiding about the same time that Percy 
argued with Arthur. What if Percy had second thoughts after the 
argument, found that his family had already left The Burrow, 
contacted Dumbledore to relay his apologies, and was recruited 
as a spy instead?

Pippin







From lizvega2 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 20 17:11:37 2004
From: lizvega2 at yahoo.com (lizvega2)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 17:11:37 -0000
Subject: Mrs. Figg's 'Cat among the Pixies'
Message-ID: <c3hu09+a90b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93516

In OOP, A Peck of Owls, P. 24, Mrs. Figg says, while commenting that 
DD told them to make sure that Harry didn't use magic, that "Well, 
it's no good crying over spilled potion, I suppose...but the cat's 
among the pixies now..." 

Now, the first part of her speech, 'there's no use crying over 
spilled potion'- I understand, but the latter part about the 
pixies..Is that merely an extension of the former? Is this an 
English saying? Does it say the same thing in the British version?

LizVega~forgive me, I'm American. :)




From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Sat Mar 20 18:25:58 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 18:25:58 -0000
Subject: Mrs. Figg's 'Cat among the Pixies'
In-Reply-To: <c3hu09+a90b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3i2bm+ki3q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93517

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lizvega2" <lizvega2 at y...> wrote:
> In OOP, A Peck of Owls, P. 24, Mrs. Figg says, while commenting that 
> DD told them to make sure that Harry didn't use magic, that "Well, 
> it's no good crying over spilled potion, I suppose...but the cat's 
> among the pixies now..." 
> 
> Now, the first part of her speech, 'there's no use crying over 
> spilled potion'- I understand, but the latter part about the 
> pixies..Is that merely an extension of the former? Is this an 
> English saying? Does it say the same thing in the British version?

It's almost certainly a twist on "the cat's  among the pigeons", which
generally signifies an upset or a situation that's got out of hand.
And yes, it is the same in the  UK  edition.

Kneasy




From belijako at online.no  Sat Mar 20 18:39:05 2004
From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 18:39:05 -0000
Subject: Harry as Gryffindor's Heir
In-Reply-To: <c3fod2+m89k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3i349+ivui@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93518

Bonny wrote:
 
<snip>
but food for thought - imagine if, somewhere along the line, Harry's 
and Voldy's family lines crossed, making Harry the heir of both 
Gryffindor AND Slytherin! hehehe far fetched, but it might make some 
sense. I know Dumbledore said that Voldemort was the last surviving 
descendant of Sly, but he has been known to keep things from Harry in 
the past if he thought they would disturb him.
 

Berit replies:

You're not alone in thinking along these lines Bonny! I think your 
thoughts on Harry as the Heir of Gryffindor are very interesting. It 
certainly is possible to find canon support for your theory (as you 
show in your post #93447). And the thought of Harry turning out to be 
both the Gryffindor AND the Slytherin heir is also an intriguing one 
(at my home computer I have so far collected 8-9 pages of quotes 
pertaining to this theory... :-) I just resently noticed a quote from 
CoS which I found a bit interesting when speaking of Harry's 
connection to Voldemort; adds a bit of mystery I think:

Quote (capital letters are mine):
"Harry couldn't explain, even to himself, why he didn't just throw 
Riddle's diary away. The fact was that even though he *knew* the 
diary was blank, he kept absent-mindedly picking it up and turning 
the pages, AS THOUGH IT WAS A STORY HE WANTED TO FINISH. And while 
Harry was sure he had never heard the name T. M. Riddle before, it 
still SEEMED TO MEAN SOMETHING TO HIM, ALMOST AS THOUGH RIDDLE WAS A 
FRIEND HE'D HAD WHEN HE WAS SMALL, AND HALF-FORGOTTEN." (CoS p. 174 
UK Ed)

-Maybe not a friend? Maybe a relative...? And there *certainly* IS a 
story to finish... I, like Bonny, believe this story is one that 
started a thousand years ago, and very much involves the old friends 
of Godric and Salazar... I have reason to believe Harry holds the key 
to finally end the old strife between the two. No wonder the Sorting 
Hat found it *particularly* difficult to place Harry; maybe because 
he belongs just as much in Slytherin as in Gryffindor...?

Finally, let me throw in this quote as well:
Quote (capital letters are mine):
"He [Voldemort] chose the boy he thought most likely to be a danger 
to him... HE SAW HIMSELF IN YOU before he had ever seen you." (OotP 
p. 742 UK Ed).

Berit
http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html




From vmonte at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 20 19:16:15 2004
From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 19:16:15 -0000
Subject: Sirius's Mirror - Will it be used to comunicate with someone who time travels?
Message-ID: <c3i59v+6jm6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93519

vmonte here:

I've not read HP messages for 2 months, due to work, so this topic 
may have already come up. 

I think that time travel will happen again. My feeling is that one of 
the children will go back in time, either by accident or to correct 
some error.  

I think that Sirius's mirror, now that it is broken in pieces, will 
be used to communicate with someone who has gone into the past. 

I think that Mr. Weasley's close call with death is perhaps JKR's way 
of foreshadowing the death of one of the Weasley parents. 
I can see Mrs. Weasley dying in a future book.  

Perhaps to save one of her children (Percy?). 

I could see Ron time traveling (with Hermione's help) to perhaps save 
the life of his mother. 

I can also see Harry giving a piece of Sirius's mirror to Ron in 
order to keep contact with him.  Harry will also probably give a 
piece of the mirror to Hermione. 
(The mirror will be used as a kind of "walkie talkie" between the 
three.)

vmonte out.




  

 

   




From technomad at intergate.com  Sat Mar 20 19:47:25 2004
From: technomad at intergate.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 13:47:25 -0600
Subject: Pressure on Percy
Message-ID: <006101c40eb4$2c1fcc00$bb510043@intergate.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93520

As a member of PINE (Percy Is Not Evil) and the originator of PUNIC FAITH
(Percy Undercover, Near Idiotic Cornelius Fudge, Accesses Information That's
Helpful) I have another interpretation of Percy's cutting all ties with his
family.

He could be under a lot of pressure at his job, and breaking with his family
might be one way to ensure that he isn't being badgered night and day to spy
on them for Fudge, as well as to reduce the danger of getting sacked for
something stupid his dad does---and, if he _is_ a deep-cover Dumbledore
agent, if he's caught with his hand in the cookie jar (so to speak) they
can't very easily sack his Dad if Percy-the-Spy is known to be on very bad
terms with him.  Cornelius Fudge, to give him his (limited!) due, is not
exactly the second coming of Josef Stalin.

His letter to Ron could be read as an attempt to give Ron a heads-up that
Trouble Is On The Way, written in such a way that anybody intercepting it
would think that Percy was just being a pompous prat.  If he _is_ a
deep-cover agent, his survival depends absolutely on keeping that cover at
_all_ times, and not doing anything inconsistent with it, even when he can
be fairly sure that he isn't being watched.  Remember Harry's letter to
"Snuffles?"  It wasn't _Percy's_ fault that Ron is about as thick as an
asphalt sandwich, now was it?  (Come to it---has anybody ever analyzed that
letter for a hidden code?  I've seen letters that looked innocuous, but if
you read, say, the third word after every punctuation mark, had a hidden
message.)

As for Dumbledore not wanting him to hurt his mother---are we talking about
the same person?  The Dumbledore who allowed Harry to suffer for ten years
of hell-on-earth at Privet Drive?  (Yes, I _know_ that Things Could Have
Been Worse---but my friends who're experts on child psychology say it's a
miracle Harry didn't turn out a lot worse than he did)  The Dumbledore who
allowed Sirius Black, a man he should have at least trusted, to be thrown
into prison for over ten years of torture _without so much as a lousy,
stinkin' trial?_

Dumbledore is a Great Leader in some ways, but he's also a very
Machiavellian old man---and when weighed against the overarching necessity
of getting rid of Voldemort, Molly's tears don't count for a lot.

I will admit, though, that part of my attraction to PUNIC FAITH is the idea
of Ron finding out---particularly if he finds out that Percy's lifestyle,
away from home, is like James Bond in his more sybaritic moments.  The
expression on his face would be priceless.




From RhianynTheCat at aol.com  Sat Mar 20 20:20:23 2004
From: RhianynTheCat at aol.com (RhianynTheCat at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 15:20:23 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mrs. Figg's 'Cat among the Pixies'
Message-ID: <143.247be9a8.2d8e0187@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93521

In a message dated 3/20/04 9:13:11 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
lizvega2 at yahoo.com writes:

> I suppose...but the cat's 
> among the pixies now..." 
> 
> Now, the first part of her speech, 'there's no use crying over 
> spilled potion'- I understand, but the latter part about the 
> pixies..Is that merely an extension of the former? Is this an 
> English saying? Does it say the same thing in the British version?
> 
> LizVega~forgive me, I'm American. :)

*Ear's prick slightly at the mention of cats and pixies*

Tis an American expression too, as in "the cat's amongst the canaries now".  
Akin to "the cat's out of the bag" but with rather more liklihood of chaotic 
consequences.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From vmonte at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 20 20:25:44 2004
From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 20:25:44 -0000
Subject: Harry as Gryffindor's Heir
In-Reply-To: <c3i349+ivui@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3i9c8+747a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93522

Berit wrote:
...the thought of Harry turning out to be both the Gryffindor AND the 
Slytherin heir is also an intriguing one...I just resently noticed a 
quote from CoS which I found a bit interesting when speaking of 
Harry's connection to Voldemort; adds a bit of mystery I think:
"Harry couldn't explain, even to himself, why he didn't just throw 
Riddle's diary away. The fact was that even though he *knew* the 
diary was blank, he kept absent-mindedly picking it up and turning 
the pages, AS THOUGH IT WAS A STORY HE WANTED TO FINISH. And while 
Harry was sure he had never heard the name T. M. Riddle before, it 
still SEEMED TO MEAN SOMETHING TO HIM, ALMOST AS THOUGH RIDDLE WAS A 
FRIEND HE'D HAD WHEN HE WAS SMALL, AND HALF-FORGOTTEN." (CoS p. 174 
UK Ed)

Maybe not a friend? Maybe a relative...? Finally, let me throw in 
this quote as well:
"He [Voldemort] chose the boy he thought most likely to be a danger 
to him... HE SAW HIMSELF IN YOU before he had ever seen you." (OotP 
p. 742 UK Ed).

vmonte responds:

Why are there so many references to Harry's similarities to Tom 
Riddle/Voldemort?  Did Voldy really transfer his powers to Harry or 
is Harry really Voldemort?!  Is Harry another version of Voldemort?   

Is it possible that Harry is Voldemort?  

(I know this is crazy and I really don't believe it myself.) 

But, what if Voldemort made several creations of himself? (Like he 
tried in book 2 with his diary?) This would be a good way to make 
sure that he lived forever...     
And, what if someone wanted to give this version of Tom Riddle 
another chance, another life? 

It would be funny if Neville was really Harry Potter?  (Just kidding!)

What if someone time traveled to the past to save Harry's life as a 
baby?  We still don't know why it took 24 hours for Harry to be 
delivered to the Dursley's?...  Maybe Voldy was originally defeated 
by an older version of Harry who will eventually time travel back to 
save his family (but ends up only saving himself)?  

Are Harry, Harry's father, and Tom Riddle all clones of each other? 

Or...

I suppose the real reason Harry and Tom Riddle are constantly 
compared is because Harry could have turned out like Tom, but he 
chose not to let his past dictate his life. 
I'm pretty sure that it will turn out that their physical 
similarities mean that they are blood related.   


vmonte 




From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 20 20:32:38 2004
From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 20:32:38 -0000
Subject: FILK: Improbable
Message-ID: <c3i9p6+ldi5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93523

Song # 8 from my CoS musical, A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to
the Chamber.

Improbable (CoS, Chap. 9)

To the tune of Impossible, from Sondheim's A Funny Thing Happened on 
the
Way to the Forum

Dedicated to the Sensational!Sensational!Gail 

Text and a brief excerpt here (you'll have to scroll down)

http://users.bestweb.net/~foosie/forum.htm

THE SCENE: Another boring lecture from BINNS is interrupted by an 
unexpected  flash of interest
.(DOBBY, uncanonically, serves both as 
Narrator, and second voice for BINNS' exposition) 

HARRY
Why does he bore us so all day?

RON
What makes him teach this dreary way?

DOBBY:
Gives them such exasperation
.

BINNS
In a big Warlock convention
1289, imputable

HARRY
I am in snore-locked distention,
Onward he grinds, immutable

HERMIONE
Sir, a question if you will

DOBBY:
Binns looked shocked and then stood still

HERMIONE:
Can you Chamber info spill?

BINNS (dismissively):
Just a legend 

HERMIONE
Please, don't legends have some grounds
In authentic fact ? impeccable?

BINNS:
It's my dogma that this yarn
Is just ludicrous ? Implausible

DOBBY (to BINNS) 
But look here, a novelty

(BINNS gazes at a sea of intent faces)

BINNS
Class looks wired

CHORUS OF STUDENTS
Tell us please of secrecy

BINNS:
Very well then, let me see..

ALL (except BINNS)
Plot
Got thickener!

BINNS
One thousand years ago they say
(Though we don't know the exact day)
Hogwarts had its consecration


DOBBY
Our four founders sought out students
To educate ? that's factual

BINNS:
Salazar proclaimed that purebloods
Should segregate ? that's actual

DOBBY
Salazar then left Hogwarts

BINNS: 
Rumor then makes this report

DOBBY:
Godric's goal he would abort

DOBBY & BINNS
Through his Chamber

BINNS:
It is said that it was sealed
>From light and air ? Improbable

DOBBY:
And that no one could unlock it
Save the true heir ? Immovable

BINNS:
Hidden horror he'd release

DOBBY:
Into our school

BINNS
Purge Hogwarts of unworthies

BINNS & DOBBY
In a way to make blood freeze

CHORUS OF STUDENTS
The situation's strange!
Danger is in range!
>From hideous
Insidious
Posthumous DEs!

    -	CMC

HARRY POTTER FILKS
http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm





From thephoenixrisingteam at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 20 12:37:04 2004
From: thephoenixrisingteam at yahoo.com (thephoenixrisingteam)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 12:37:04 -0000
Subject: Unlocking the Hidden Pattern/7 tasks-7 books
In-Reply-To: <Sea2-F51EWopcnvy3Jd0000232a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <c3hdtg+3chs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93524

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathy King" <kking0731 at h...> 
wrote:
> 
> >~<(Laurasia)>~
> >
> >Who laughed when Sienna apologised for the length of her posts, as
> >she herself always write far longer posts and never thought to
> >apologise for those who tediously read them.
> 
> Kathy's thoughts:
> 
> I am not here to judge what others think of this wonderful creative 
art that 
> Jkr has given to all of us, but to accept others opinions in the 
hope of 
> enhancing my own. I, hopefully, refrain from hurting anyone and 
their views 
> (to which every one has their right). We are all here to again, 
hopefully, 
> enhance our thoughts (good or bad) from the other person's 
perspective.
> 
> 
> Didn't this or that person cause you to think of what might be a 
very good 
> prediction?
> 
> This is what I feel or hope this site is for. Enhancing our own 
thoughts and 
> ideas but hopefully not at the risk of hurting others.
> 
> I have seen a lot of very good people hurt over the way we word our 
> objections. I miss these contributors immensely.
> 
> 
> 
> Kathy

Mlle: I believe you misunderstood Laurasia's comment, Kathy. She 
wasn't laughing at Sienna for her long posts, she was laughing at the 
fact that she (Laurasia) also writes long posts and never bothered to 
write an apology for them, like Sienna so thoughtfully did. :-)

hehe...then again, maybe I misunderstood, which is quite possible 
LOL ;)

:-D

Mlle Bienvenu





From mad_maxime at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 20 15:16:42 2004
From: mad_maxime at hotmail.com (mad_maxime)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 15:16:42 -0000
Subject: Why didn't  Lily have to die?
In-Reply-To: <c3gklc+hbfe@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3hn8q+1nsq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93525

> > Max wrote:
> > I personally think too much has been made out of Voldemort asking
> > Lily to stand aside.  I believe he came to Godric's Hollow for one
> > reason - to kill Harry.  He killed James because he saw him as a
> > possible threat to his mission. However, in his arrogance
> >("silly girl"), I don't believe he saw Lily as a threat at all.
> >
> Greatelderone replied:
> How so? She was one of his enemies and one of dumbledore's
> follower's who had successfully survived three adventures against
> him. I don't think he'd be stupid enough to see her as no threat.
> <snip>

Max replies:

But he *was* stupid enough to see her as no threat. How else can you
read the situation?  He walks into the room and tells her to "Stand
aside, you silly girl." If he had *really* seen her as a threat, he
would have killed her right off the bat as he did with James, or at
least incapacitated her in some way. I don't disagree that he saw her
as one of his enemies, but it is clear to me that her viewed her as
merely a nuisance, not a threat.

> > Max wrote:
 
> > I'm not saying he wouldn't have wanted to kill James and Lily
> > anyway as they were aurors and his adversaries.  I just believe on
> > that particular night, fueled by his knowledge of the Prophecy, he
> > was mono-focused on killing Harry.

> Greatelderone replied:

> Yet it would have been easier to AK her and then AK Harry. Yet he
> doesn't and instead he tells her to step aside. Why? He's a dark
> lord and a rather ruthless fellow. Telling a mudblood to step aside
> so he could kill her son instead of killing her and then her son is
> rather uncharacteristic of someone like him.

Max replies:

I see no reason why this action would seem "uncharacteristic of
someone like him". Time and time again, in Voldemort's interactions
with Harry, we see his tendency to want to 'play' a bit with his
victim before going for the kill. If I were to describe his character,
two things I'd be fairly certain of, would be his arrogance and his
fondness for gloating. Who knows, maybe he enjoyed the idea of making
Lily watch as he killed her son.

So killing Harry first in no way makes him seem less ruthless. In
fact, it makes him seem more ruthless, imo.






From ekrbdg at msn.com  Sat Mar 20 15:25:49 2004
From: ekrbdg at msn.com (Kimberly)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 10:25:49 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why didn't  Lily have to die?
References: <c3gklc+hbfe@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00d201c40e8f$a10e5600$0b83f343@hppav>

No: HPFGUIDX 93526

(great elderone's comments)
 However the fact that PS/SS and POA told us that she died to protect 
her son and the fact that Rowling said that we'd learn something 
significant about her in Book VII just makes one think that there is 
some significance in those last few moments and that Voldemort might 
indeed have had some reluctance to kill her.

(Kimberly's comments)
I can't even imagine what we could find out about her that would make Voldemort reluctant to kill her.   Clearly being a blood relative won't have mattered because he's already proved that won't even stop him.    I wonder what it could be ?    


(great elderone's comments)
Yet it would have been easier to AK her and then AK Harry. Yet he 
doesn't and instead he tells her to step aside. Why? He's a dark lord 
and a rather ruthless fellow. Telling a mudblood to step aside so he 
could kill her son instead of killing her and then her son is rather 
uncharacteristic of someone like him. 


(Kimberly's comments)
It is quite uncharacteristic but, looking at it from a flip side... in order for Harry to have the protective bond of Lily's sacrifice, she had to die to protect him.   Now, naturally Lily didn't know this and certainly Voldemort didn't but JKR did.    Perhaps she wrote it like that simply to add the element of Lily's sacrifice and the affect of it on Harry as well as the long term affect it could have on the entire plot line.    IMO, that's why Lily had to die in the book.    As to why Voldemort stated it later on, perhaps he was just remarking that it wasn't necessary.     

Kimberly


 




From ekrbdg at msn.com  Sat Mar 20 15:36:03 2004
From: ekrbdg at msn.com (Kimberly)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 10:36:03 -0500
Subject: Harry leaving Privet Drive
References: <c3hll5+o4f7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <017801c40e91$0ea41e60$0b83f343@hppav>

No: HPFGUIDX 93527

 (Annemehr's comments)

Oh, I hope not.  I've really enjoyed the gradual shift in power from
the Dursleys to Harry through the books, aided and abetted by Harry's
WW friends (the one who wrote "Harry Potter, the Cupboard Under the
Stairs..." on the Hogwarts letter, Sirius, the King's Cross sendoff
party).  I'm really hoping to see Harry come of age at Privet Drive,
and give the Dursleys to know that he's allowed to do magic now, and
at last have *all* the power in the relationship.  I'd like to see him
shame them in how he uses (or doesn't use) it.

Just my personal opinion!  :-)

(Kimberly's comments)
My thought has always been that once Voldemort was defeated, Harry would be able to leave Privet Drive and call some other place "home".  I've more recently had the thought that perhaps in book 7 something happens to all 3 of the Dursley's and Harry, having lived there for 16 or so years and perhaps being "of  legal age", automatically acquires the house due to their death.   (This is assuming they don't have it willed to someone else, but there are no other relatives on Petunia's side and the only relative we've heard mention of on Vernon's side is Aunt Marge).    If this is the case, then Harry could still call Privet Drive "home" and the charm from his Mother's sacrifice would be with him always.   

Kimberly






From tipgardner at netscape.net  Sat Mar 20 15:42:26 2004
From: tipgardner at netscape.net (tipgardner)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 15:42:26 -0000
Subject: The plural of "magic"? (Was: Harry's shortest stay at Privet Drive)
In-Reply-To: <c3giom+tmbt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3hop2+10383@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93528

> >Tip had responded to the plural of magic question without confidence:
>  > P. S. What *is* the plural of 'magic', anyway?
> 
> Magic?
> 
> Carol:
> Since you're the second person who's asked, I'll take a stab at it.
> "Magic" doesn't seem to have a plural; it's more or less a collective
> noun like "art"

Tip replied gratefully:
Sorry, yes, we're saying the same thing.  I was just saying it like an
ignorant schoolboy afraid to answer Professor Snape for fear of losing
house points and you were stating it boldly with the confidence you
have earned.

Thanks!

Tip Gardner

Visit my journal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/tipgardner/
See my fan fic at http://www.schnoogle.com.





From tipgardner at netscape.net  Sat Mar 20 15:49:45 2004
From: tipgardner at netscape.net (tipgardner)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 15:49:45 -0000
Subject: Why didn't  Lily have to die?
In-Reply-To: <c3glc0+q61a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3hp6p+iqlk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93529

"justcarol67" wrote:

> > > > <<<What *I* don't understand is how he could have thought that
> > >>*any* mother would stand aside and let him kill her baby.>>>

> > Tip points out:
> > Except that the years of of bodiless spirit followed after Lily's
> > sacrifice as a direct result of his work that night.   

Carol ammended: 
> Oops. I must have been thinking of the years of wandering in which
>he was transformed from the handsome boy, Tom Riddle, to the
>snake-faced  Lord Voldemort, seeker of immortality. At any rate, I do
think he had
> lost touch with human psychology, if he was ever familiar with it, or
> he would have understood that, even with her husband presumably dead
> (as Pippin pointed out in another post), a woman will protect her baby.

Tip responds:
Fair enough.  Dumbledore refers to the many dangerous transformations
Riddle undergoes to embody an angry, prideful, POWERFUL young man's
vision of what LV would look like and be.  Those years of wandering,
transforming, etc. might very well have contributed to his lack of
connection with other human beings.

The counter point might be, though, LV's comment (as Riddle at the end
of CoS or when he guides Harry to Hagrid as the perpetrator? - sorry,
I don't have the books with me) that he has always been able to
persuade/charm people when necessary.  One needs to have enough of a
grasp of human psychology to know how to read someone and act
accordingly and that, of course, returns us back to how could LV have
had such a faulty understanding that he thought Lily would step aside
and let him murder her baby boy?

Tip Gardner
Read my journal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/tipgardner/
Read my fan fiction at http://www.schnoogle.com





From pt4ever at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 20 17:54:11 2004
From: pt4ever at yahoo.com (JoAnna)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 17:54:11 -0000
Subject: Vague Thoughts on Apparation - Conclusion Confusion
In-Reply-To: <c3hmsp+g4ro@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3i0g3+4s66@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93530

Ginger:

<<<I have to wonder if the key isn't necessity.  People have been
using driving/drivers licenses as an example, and I think it is a good
one. 
 
Even in the US, the ages of driving vary from state to state.  Here 
in North Dakota, you can get a permit at 13 and a license at 14.  
<snip> 

In the WW we have all sorts of other forms of transportation.  >>>

Ginger makes a good point.  (BTW, I'm a fellow North Dakotan - hello
from Fargo!)  :)

In GoF, Mr. Weasley tells Harry, "You don't mess around with
Apparition.  There are plenty of adult wizards who don't bother with
it.  Prefer brooms -- slower, but safer." (page 67, U.S. edition)  In
the same portion of the book, it also says that Harry had "never known
any Hogwarts student to do it [Apparate], and understood that it was
very difficult."  (page 66)

If Apparition was taught as school, you'd think Harry would know some
Hogwarts students who were at least practicing - Percy, for example,
no doubt would have bragged about learning, and in turn Ron would
complain to Harry about Percy's bragging - but we don't hear about it
in PoA.

I know several people in the U.S. who don't have driver's licenses
because they live in a large city with a reliable public
transportation system, and driving/owning a car is more trouble than
it's worth.  Since there are many students who may choose not to
Apparate, perhaps Hogwarts doesn't bother to teach it since it's an
optional activity and not required.  Or, perhaps, there's an
extra-curricular type class to teach it, but you'd think studying for
N.E.W.T.s would supercede any extra-curriculars (other than Quidditch,
that is *wink*).  

- JoAnna





From rgbmcl at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 20 18:45:01 2004
From: rgbmcl at hotmail.com (rgbmcl)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 18:45:01 -0000
Subject: Why didn't  Lily have to die?
In-Reply-To: <c3ehff+lbt9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3i3fd+ttgp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93531

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatelderone" 
<greatelderone at y...> wrote:
> Just out of curiosity, but why needn't Lily have died on the night 
> when Voldemort attacks the Potter residence. Voldemort himself 
> mentions it first in PS/SS and then later in POA we hear him tell 
> Lily to stand aside. Seeing how he killed James, a pureblood though 
a 
> traitor, why does a ruthless Dark Lord actually show an ounce of 
> mercy to Lily who he considers a mudblood according to his ideology 
> and who probably defied him thrice according to the terms of the 
> prophecy. I mean he could just have systemically slaughtered the 
> whole potter family. Why did he actually try and make an effort in 
> having her stand aside? It's so not like him imo.

This isn't really an answer, but we shouldn't forget that LV's mother 
died for him, too (in childbirth, I think (?)).  It's obviously not a 
perfect parallel, because, as far as we know, she wasn't saving wee 
Tom from murder, but maybe in that moment it was something he 
recognized?  I wonder if maybe what we'll be learning more about 
young TR, has something to do with this.





From gbannister10 at aol.com  Sat Mar 20 22:06:17 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 22:06:17 -0000
Subject: Harry's shortest stay at Privet Drive
In-Reply-To: <F63308FB-7A11-11D8-BC58-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu>
Message-ID: <c3if8p+u5kl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93532

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Laura Ingalls Huntley 
<lhuntley at f...> wrote:

Laura: 
> P. S. What *is* the plural of 'magic', anyway?  As it's 'magicked' 
and 
> 'magicking' when we're talking about the verb forms, I've always 
> assumed that 'magicks' is right (okay, I know that's not the 
strongest 
> argument).  However, Merriam-Webster.com was silent on the subject, 
and 
> my spell-checker said *both* 'magics' and 'magicks' were wrong. 
> *puzzled*

Geoff:
I would agree with Tip and Carol. There are many words associated 
with branches of learning to which you would not normally expect a 
plural.....

Maths, English, Botany, Chemistry, French just to strat the list.....

Magick, of course is a very old form of the noun.




From mpjdekker at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 20 22:08:17 2004
From: mpjdekker at hotmail.com (mightymaus75)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 22:08:17 -0000
Subject: Voldemort *inside* Harry's head (mind)? (Was: Re: Wanting or presenting: Was: Snape's reaction to Harry in Slytherin)
In-Reply-To: <80883A6C-7A29-11D8-9D39-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu>
Message-ID: <c3ifch+u1e9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93533

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Laura Ingalls Huntley 
<lhuntley at f...> wrote:
> <snip>
> This theory feels v. good to me, except for the fact that the voice
> is often benevolent and/or wise (and even once sounds like
> Hermione), which doesn't exactly level w/ the idea that it's a bit
> of Voldy's consciousness stuck in Harry.

Ah you spotted the little whispered voice in Harry's ear (this is fun 
isn't it?). I didn't think that one was really worth mentioning as it 
was a voice in Harry's ear; there are just too many alternative 
explanations: Peeves impersonating Hermione, Hermione under an 
invisibility cloak, Dumbledore in animagus form. But I do think it is 
in fact the separated part of Voldemort's mind doing his best 
impersonation of Hermione's bossy tone of voice.   

Some of the voices Harry hears do seem benevolent and/or wise. Then 
again you have to ask yourself what is the separated part of 
Voldemort's mind trying to do inside Harry. With the striking 
similarities between Harry and Voldemort it seems very likely that he 
will try to lead Harry down the same path he once followed. Something 
which will require a certain amount of restraint and control. And 
possibly sharing Harry's head for the past 15 years is starting to 
have some positive influence on the separated part of Voldemort's 
mind. If the separated part of Voldemort's mind is showing genuine 
concern for Harry's well-being, that is a very positive sign that he 
is perhaps starting to sympathise with Harry. Something which is 
essential if Harry is ever to turn the part of Voldemort inside of 
him human again.  


> Also, "mightmaus75" wrote:
> > In OotP Harry hears a voice inside his head when he is attacked
> > by the Dementors: "But there was no happiness in him... the
> > Dementor's icy fingers were closing on his throat ? the high-
> > pitched laughter was growing louder and louder, and a voice spoke
> > inside his head: 'Bow to death, Harry... it might even be
> > painless... I would not know... I have never died.'" We all
> > assume that what Harry heard was the Dementor talking
> > telepathically inside his head, but then the voice says: 'Bow to
> > death, Harry'. Harry was told to bow to death once before.
> > Voldemort used the exact same words in the dark and overgrown
> > graveyard in GoF. Perhaps it wasn't the Dementor Harry heard
> > inside his head.
> 
> Actually, Harry *always* hears Voldemort's voice in his head when 
> Dementors are near -- as making people relive their "worst
> memories" is what Dementors *do*.  Pre-GoF, Harry's worst memory
> was his mother's death.  Post-GoF, it was the Graveyard Scene.  In
> both cases, Harry heard Voldemort's voice reciting lines from those
> instances.

However in the GoF graveyard Voldemort does not continue with the 
words: "it might even be painless... I would not know... I have never 
died." In GoF Voldemort actually repeats his command to bow and goes 
on to say: "And now you face me, like a man..." The voice Harry hears 
during the Dementor attack in OotP certainly is not a literal 
replaying of this scene. 

-Maus





From gbannister10 at aol.com  Sat Mar 20 22:31:09 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 22:31:09 -0000
Subject: Mrs. Figg's 'Cat among the Pixies'
In-Reply-To: <143.247be9a8.2d8e0187@aol.com>
Message-ID: <c3ignd+pn4j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93534

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, RhianynTheCat at a... wrote:
> In a message dated 3/20/04 9:13:11 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
> lizvega2 at y... writes:
 
 
> Tis an American expression too, as in "the cat's amongst the 
canaries now".  
> Akin to "the cat's out of the bag" but with rather more liklihood 
of chaotic 
> consequences.

Geoff:
"That's put the cat among the pigeons" and "that's let the cat out of 
the bag" do not carry the same connotation in UK english.

The latter implies that something which was secret and should not 
have been revealed has been released. The former implies that 
something controversial has been said or done which will probably 
spark off disagreement and argument or some other strong reaction.

(Posters who make a point of follow my ramblings may have noticed 
that, at the end of a long posting last week, I said "that's put the 
feline among the avians" which was my own joking interpretation of 
the same phrase).

Mrs.Figg's "pixies" and "spilt potions" are merely Wizarding World 
variants of pigeons and spilt milk.




From jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net  Sat Mar 20 22:34:21 2004
From: jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net (Robert Jones)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 22:34:21 -0000
Subject: Harry as DADA Professor
In-Reply-To: <24.519a35e0.2d8da8f9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <c3igtd+a5bc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93535

Harry can't be the new DADA teacher for one simple reason: the 
teaching load.  Each House meets individually and is mandatory for 
at least the first five years.  So Harry would have to teach each 
House for at least five different years.  That's 4 times 5, or 20 
classes.  And if each class meets twice a week, that's 40 hours of 
class each week.  Plus DADA NEWT level classes.  Plus grading 
homework.  Plus his own sixth year classes.

He would be exhausted, and there would be no time for his 
adventures.  

And reading 400 pages of "Harry Potter and the Exhausting Teaching 
Load" just doesn't sound like any fun at all.





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 20 22:35:31 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 22:35:31 -0000
Subject: Vague Thoughts on Apparation - Conclusion Confusion
In-Reply-To: <c3h0fu+um6l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3igvj+vhol@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93536

I (Carol) wrote:
We know that the Twins turned seventeen in April of their sixth 
year. I had assumed that they practiced at home over the summer, 
maybe under their father's supervision, before taking their tests.
 
bboy_mn responded:
OK, in GoF, we find out from Mr Weasley that Apparation is difficult
and dangerous. If that's true, and we have no reason to doubt him,
then why would the wizard world leave something this difficult and
dangerous up to the parents to teach their children?
 
To me that doesn't make sense, all other necessary magic it taught at
school, why would apparation be excluded from this?

Carol again:
Steve, please note "had assumed" in my previous response, which
indicates that until I read your post, that was what I had thought.
Now I'm no longer making that assumption but presenting the existing
(very scanty) evidence and exploring possibilities. As for why
apparation *might* be excluded from the Hogwarts curriculum, if you
were McGonagall, would you want to teach Fred and George to apparate?
It's like giving them a license to leave the grounds at any time.

I (Carol) wrote:
Of course, we don't know when his birthday is, but I think he [Percy}
must not have turned seventeen until just before his seventh year or
he would have taken his test the previous summer.

bboy_mn responded:
One of the points I tried to make is that I don't understand why
everyone is so obsessed with the idea that you absolutely under no
circumstances can Apparate until you are 17 years old?

Carol again:
I was just trying to establish Percy's age, when he learned to
apparate, and why he hadn't taken his test the previous summer. No
indication that I'm obsessed about how old you can be when you
apparate. I admit I'm obsessed about getting my facts straight, which
is all I was trying to do here--as in, okay, here's what we know about
Percy and the Twins learning to apparate. I wasn't actually arguing
here, just--again--presenting the available evidence.

bboy_mn: 
You can't do any kind of magic outside of school until you are 17
years old. Or as Carol pointed out, you can't do any 'cast' or wand
magic out side of school. Yet we see the kids doing all kinds of cast
wand magic inside of school; in class and out. 

Carol again:
I'm not sure who made that comment, but it wasn't me. Maybe the person
who made the remark will identify herself?

bboy_mn: 
Apparation is a difficult and dangerous form of magic, the teaching of
which is best left to professionals in my opinion.

Carol responds:
I'm not arguing with you here. In fact, I suggested the possibility
that Madam Hooch *might* be available to teach such a course in her
spare time. I'm only saying that I don't see any evidence that such a
course is taught. (As a side note, I don't see any reason why an MoM
employee like Arthur wouldn't be sufficiently skilled at apparating to
teach his own children. He does it every day and presumably has done
so for years. A Muggle parent, OTOH, would know nothing about
apparation but would be concerned about teaching his or her teenager
to drive. So maybe the Muggle-borns can get special, extracurricular
apparating lessons at Hogwarts. If so, we can be sure that Hermione
will take advantage of them in the next book if she's really older
than the boys.)

bboy_mn:  
My next point, is that everyone seem to take their Apparation test
during the Summer. People seem to have taken that to indicate they
couldn't possibly learn Apparation at school. Sorry, I don't follow
that line of thought.

Carol responds:
As I said, I *was* making that assumption, but your post caused me to
consider the possibility that I might be wrong. Thanks for the
suggestion. Your point that "You learn at school, the school year
ends, you go to the Ministry, and take the test [is] a log[i]cal
sequence of events" does make sense as a possibility I hadn't
previously considered. We just don't have any evidence that students
are taught apparation (apparition?). There's no known Apparation
teacher and, as I noted, you'd think that Fred and George would make a
big deal about it if they were learning it.

bboy_mn:   
The last point is Hermione's continued insistance that you can't
Apparate at Hogwarts. But just outside the gate of Hogwarts, one must
assume, you can Apparate. Why is that a problem? Students go into
Hogmeade on Hogsmeade weekends and seem to survive the effort. Why
would it be such a terrible stuggle for them to walk into town for
Apparation lessons? Actually, why even bother to walk all the way into
town, when you can just step outside the gate?

Carol:
OTOH, why go to all the trouble of protecting the school and grounds
with anti-apparation and disapparation spells (which limit the
movements of the staff as well as the students) if the older students
can just escape those limits by either sneaking out of school using
one of the passages DD, Filch, and Snape know to exist or apparating
and disapparating on a Hogsmeade holiday? I think it makes sense not
to routinely teach students a skill that could so easily be abused by
the likes of MWPP, Fred and George, or Draco and his friends. I can
see DD making an exception for Harry and possibly for Ron and Hermione
in the next book, but the safety of the students and the ability to
account for their whereabouts seems to me a good enough reason for not
teaching it. (Again, I'm not arguing that it *isn't* taught, just
exploring possibilities.) 

 
Certainly, it seems that it could and would very logically be taught
during 6th year so that students would be ready to take the test as
soon as they turned 17 and had a break from school.

Carol responds:
I'm not so sure. If parents or the MoM for some reason insist that
Apparation must be taught, at least as an elective, it would make
sense to restrict it to the seventh year, when all students are at
least seventeen--old enough, I would hope, not to abuse the
privilege--and too focused (unless they're Fred and George) on their
NEWTs to think about escaping the grounds to make mischief. That seems
to me to be a greater danger than splinching.

bboy_mn:
More importantly, I WANT it taught during 6th year and AT school
because I want to find out all the details on how it works and what it
feels like. 

Carol responds:
Ah, the truth comes out. Now I know why it was so important to you to
argue with me when in fact I was only exploring both sides of the
argument. I'll try to make that clearer in future.

Carol, who, for the record, is NOT making a clear stand on this issue
but *leans toward* the idea that it isn't taught at Hogwarts because
there's no evidence to the contrary




From belijako at online.no  Sat Mar 20 23:04:15 2004
From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 23:04:15 -0000
Subject: Harry as Gryffindor's Heir
In-Reply-To: <c3i9c8+747a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3iilf+fdlu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93537

vmonte wrote:
 
Why are there so many references to Harry's similarities to Tom 
Riddle/Voldemort?  Did Voldy really transfer his powers to Harry or 
is Harry really Voldemort?!  Is Harry another version of Voldemort?   
Is it possible that Harry is Voldemort?  
(I know this is crazy and I really don't believe it myself.)

Berit replies:

I'm glad you put in that last comment :-) I have a hard time 
believing Rowling's plot is anything like that :-) That's why I agree 
more with your conclusion:

vmonte wrote: 
I suppose the real reason Harry and Tom Riddle are constantly 
compared is because Harry could have turned out like Tom, but he 
chose not to let his past dictate his life. 
I'm pretty sure that it will turn out that their physical 
similarities mean that they are blood related.   

Berit replies:
I love quotes and usually won't form any theories not backed up by 
canon. So please forgive me, but here comes a couple of more quotes 
supporting the theory that Harry and Tom Riddle might be blood-
related (and sharing the claim to the Slytherin Heir title):

Quote:
"[Sirius saying about Pettigrew:]'...ready to strike the moment he 
could be sure of allies ... to deliver the last Potter to them'" (PoA 
p. 272 UK Ed)

Why the stress on Harry being the "last" Potter? The last in the line 
of... what? Compare this quote to Dumbledore telling Harry Voldemort 
chose him as the "prophecy-boy" because he saw himself in Harry. 
Similar appearance, similar abilities. Maybe even the same 
forefather. In Hermione's words:
Quote: "'You'll find that hard to prove [that Harry is not a 
descendant of Salazar Slytherin],' said Hermione. 'He lived about a 
thousand years ago; for all I know, you could be.'" (CoS p. 147 UK Ed)

For all we know, he could be... :-)

Ernie McMillan ties it up nicely:
Quote: "'That's probably why You Know Who wanted to kill him in the 
first place. Didn't want another Dark Lord *competing* with 
him.'"(CoS p. 148 UK Ed)

Of course Ernie's assumption that Harry is another Dark Lord is 
incorrect (I believe :-), but I think Ernie wasn't too far off the 
track on the other part: Voldemort didn't want competition. From 
someone *equal* (prophecy states Voldie marked him as his *equal*). 
Equal in power. Equal in abilities. Equal even as contestant to the 
title Heir of Slytherin?

Just my two knuts :-)

Berit
http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 21 01:24:59 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 01:24:59 -0000
Subject: Mrs. Figg's 'Cat among the Pixies'
In-Reply-To: <c3i2bm+ki3q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3iqtb+n8e1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93538

"lizvega2" wrote:
In OOP, A Peck of Owls, P. 24, Mrs. Figg says, while commenting that 
DD told them to make sure that Harry didn't use magic, that "Well, 
it's no good crying over spilled potion, I suppose...but the cat's 
among the pixies now..." Now, the first part of her speech, 'there's
no use crying over spilled potion'- I understand, but the latter part
about the pixies. Is that merely an extension of the former? Is this
an English saying? Does it say the same thing in the British version?

Kneasy replied:
It's almost certainly a twist on "the cat's among the pigeons", which
generally signifies an upset or a situation that's got out of hand.
And yes, it is the same in the UK edition.

Carol responds:
I think what's important about these cliches or proverbs is not their
meaning but Mrs. Figg's use of them. I think, first, that JKR expected
her young British readers to recognize these expressions and to smile
at Mrs. Figg's WW twist on them. But it also seems significant (to me)
that Mrs. Figg, a Squib, is using these expressions in front of Harry,
who presumably hasn't heard her speak this way before or he'd never
have assumed she was a Muggle. (Note that she also says, "we might as
well be hanged for a dragon as an egg," and calls Mundungus Fletcher a
"worthless pile of bat droppings," OoP Am. ed. 21 and 23. It's most
unlikely that she speaks this way in front of Petunia and dead certain
that she doesn't do so in front of Vernon.)

Mrs. Figg is clearly agitated in this scene, both because of the
Dementors and because of Mundungus Fletcher neglecting his duties, and
she's speaking in disjointed sentences and cliches, but they're WW
versions of Muggle cliches, indicating that she's had quite a bit of
exposure to the magical world even though she can't perform magic
herself, or so she thinks. (I predict that we'll find out otherwise in
a later book but that's another topic.) Her expressions remind me of
"Merlin's beard!" a mild WW oath used by several wizards in various
books (Amos Diggory in GoF may have been one). No Muggle would use
that expression.

In any case, Mrs. Figg, whom Harry and the reader thought was a
Muggle, turns out to be a Squib, and not just any Squib but one who's
clearly in close contact with the WW: a trusted member of the Order
who's been watching Harry since he was a baby and one of "the old
crowd" Sirius is sent to contact at the end of GoF (with the apparent
implication that she'll listen to Sirius's story if Lupin is also
present and vouches for him). She can definitely communicate, as Filch
can, with cats, even "stationing" one under a car to report to her if
Mundungus fails in his duties (OoP Am. ed. 20). She can apparently see
Dementors (she knows about them before Harry mentions them, 20, and I
see no reason why she would lie to the MoM. If she can talk to cats,
why not be able to see Dementors?).

My point? Only that, IMO, these humorous variations on British cliches
or proverbs emphasize Mrs. Figg's intimate link with the WW even
though she lives in a Muggle neighborhood and has never apparated or
"so much as Transfigured a tea bag," OoP Am. ed. 21. Her mention of
these skills provides additional concrete evidence of a longtime link
with the WW, as does her knowledge of DD, Dementors, the MoM, and the
Statute of Secrecy. In a way she lives in both worlds, passing as a
Muggle in Little Whinging, fooling even Vernon Dursley and staying off
the MoM's radar by not practicing magic. (Fudge, of course, learns
that she's a Squib at Harry's hearing, but I don't think that her
cover as an Order member guarding Harry is blown. At least not yet.)

To return to my main point, her cliches indicate to me that she grew
up in the Wizarding World, which would account for her instinctive use
of them under pressure. I'm speculating that (in contrast to Petunia,
whose sister was a witch but whose family were Muggles) Arabella grew
up within an old wizarding family in which magic was the norm and
everyone else was a witch or a wizard. Fudge makes a point of having
her register her maiden name (her Wizarding heritage) before she
leaves the courtroom, a seemingly minor detail that I think will be
important. Or rather, I have a feeling that the name itself is
important because it links her to someone we know--Dumbledore himself
or McGonagall, maybe. (Someone on this list suggested that the tartan
slippers might be a clue that she's related to McGonagall, but last
time I mentioned that, I was criticized for jumping to conclusions on
the basis of insignificant evidence. For the record, I mention it in
passing only as a possible clue, an interesting tidbit that may or may
not mean something, not as "proof" of any such connection.)

Regardless of whom she's related to, there's clearly more to Arabella
Figg than meets the eye. As I said before, those seemingly trivial WW
proverbs indicate that she lives in both worlds. IMO, Dumbledore
placed her in Little Whinging precisely because, as a Squib, she could
pass herself off as a Muggle and not give herself away to the MoM by
practicing magic in Harry's closely watched neighborhood. I'll even
bet that Dumbledore was willing to leave baby Harry on the Dursleys'
doorstep on a chilly November night (securely wrapped in his blankets
so he wouldn't get cold or toddle away and be run over or bitten by a
dog) because Mrs. Figg and her cats were already secretly keeping
watch, without the MoM or the DEs suspecting a thing.

In any case, I like Mrs. Figg and hope we'll see more of her in Book
6. Maybe Harry will even voluntarily visit her house as a refuge from
the Dursleys and ask her some of the "million questions" (OoP Am. ed.
24) about Dumbledore and the Order that he's never had the opportunity
to ask anyone else.

Carol, who thanks lizvega for asking this question and apologizes for
the length of the response, which I've tried to make coherent and
unambiguous and don't dare spend any more time on
 





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 21 02:32:31 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 02:32:31 -0000
Subject: Why didn't  Lily have to die?
In-Reply-To: <00d201c40e8f$a10e5600$0b83f343@hppav>
Message-ID: <c3iurv+uhe9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93539

Kimberly wrote:
> It is quite uncharacteristic [ of LV] but, looking at it from a flip
side... in order for Harry to have the protective bond of Lily's
sacrifice, she had to die to protect him.   Now, naturally Lily didn't
know this and certainly Voldemort didn't but JKR did.  Perhaps she
wrote it like that simply to add the element of Lily's sacrifice and
the affect of it on Harry as well as the long term affect it could
have on the entire plot line.  IMO, that's why Lily had to die in the
book.    As to why Voldemort stated it later on, perhaps he was just
remarking that it wasn't necessary.     

Carol:
I think Lily *did* know that she had to die for the "ancient magic" to
work. (We've discussed the possibility in earlier threads that she
herself placed a protective charm on Harry that could only work if she
died to save him.) If I'm right, she could not step aside (even if she
wanted to, which few mothers would) and she couldn't allow herself to
be pushed aside, either: she had to be killed to activate the
protection. That's why (IMO) she kept screaming, "Don't kill Harry!
Kill me instead!" Whether or not she placed a charm on him herself,
these words indicate that she knew she had to die. (If you're
interested in the protective charm theory, it was discussed at length
earlier this year and ties in with Lily's skill at charms, as
suggested by the description of her first wand in SS/PS.)

Voldemort, we sometimes forget, is not omniscient, and I think in this
case his view of what happened isn't quite accurate, or at least it's
not complete. From *his* perspective, Lily didn't have to die. If she
had only been sensible and moved (right, LV!), she would have lived to
see him murder her son. (I still say he was dense, or ignorant of
human psychology, to expect her to move even given his lack of
comprehension of love, but I'm not going back into that one!) From
Lily's and JKR's perspective, Lily's death was essential. She *had* to
die *before* LV tried to kill Harry because the AK would have
succeeded if she were still alive to see it.

As to why Voldemort acted as he did, I've already argued that it
wasn't mercy. He just (IMO) didn't see the wandless Lily as a threat,
only an obstacle to the one murder he was sure he must perform to
prevent the prophecy from being fulfilled. Only when she screamed and
persistently refused to move out of his way did he see a need to kill
her. And even then he saw it as her "foolish sacrifice" (GoF), not as
the essential element it was in the survival of her son and,
ultimately, of the WW itself.

Carol, hoping that she's had her last word on this topic




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 21 02:47:42 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 02:47:42 -0000
Subject: Harry leaving Privet Drive
In-Reply-To: <017801c40e91$0ea41e60$0b83f343@hppav>
Message-ID: <c3ivoe+rhes@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93540

Kimberly wrote:
> My thought has always been that once Voldemort was defeated, Harry
would be able to leave Privet Drive and call some other place "home".
 I've more recently had the thought that perhaps in book 7 something
happens to all 3 of the Dursley's and Harry, having lived there for 16
or so years and perhaps being "of  legal age", automatically acquires
the house due to their death.   (This is assuming they don't have it
willed to someone else, but there are no other relatives on Petunia's
side and the only relative we've heard mention of on Vernon's side is
Aunt Marge).    If this is the case, then Harry could still call
Privet Drive "home" and the charm from his Mother's sacrifice would be
with him always.   

Carol:
That's an interesting thought, but since he'll probably inherit
Sirius's house (after a legal struggle with the Malfoys), I don't
think he'll need another house, especially in Muggle Little Whinging.
More to the point, I think the "blood" protection applies only when
Petunia is alive and only against LV himself. If LV is permanently
destroyed, the charm will no longer be needed or valid.

Possibly he'll choose his seventeenth birthday, the day he comes of
age, to leave the Dursleys permanently. What terms that would be on, I
don't know, but I for one don't want him to stoop to their level and
throw a bunch of hexes in revenge. It would be funny, though, if he
could just "banish" his luggage to Hogwarts, send Hedwig ahead of him,
and apparate (with some red and gold sparks thrown in for effect)
right in front of their eyes. A conspicuous bit of magic to embarrass
and "disgrace" them in front of the whole neighborhood.

On second thought, I don't think he'll be able to leave so
dramatically or permanently at that point because LV won't have been
defeated yet and he'll have a whole school year in front of him before
the final battle. It will be too soon to burn his bridges and safest
to leave the "blood" charm in effect as long as he can. Maybe he'll
even end up saving the Dursleys, or at least Dudley and Petunia. But I
very much doubt that he'll inherit their house, or that he would want to.

Carol




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 21 03:25:03 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 03:25:03 -0000
Subject: Voldemort *inside* Harry's head (mind)? (Was: Re: Wanting or presenting: Was: Sn
In-Reply-To: <c3ifch+u1e9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3j1uf+ho5o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93541

Laura pointed out:
Actually, Harry *always* hears Voldemort's voice in his head when 
Dementors are near--as making people relive their "worst memories" is
what Dementors *do*. Pre-GoF, Harry's worst memory was his mother's
death. Post-GoF, it was the Graveyard Scene. In both cases, Harry
heard Voldemort's voice reciting lines from those instances.

Maus responded: 
However in the GoF graveyard Voldemort does not continue with the 
words: "it might even be painless... I would not know... I have never 
died." In GoF Voldemort actually repeats his command to bow and goes 
on to say: "And now you face me, like a man..." The voice Harry hears 
during the Dementor attack in OotP certainly is not a literal 
replaying of this scene. 
 
Carol supports Laura:
While it's true that the Dementor's replay of the graveyard encounter
is not quite as it happened, LV did say the words "it might even be
painless," etc. They occur later in the duel, after he has Imperio'd
Harry, trying to make him say that he didn't want to be Crucio'd
again, and Harry has fought off the spell. Harry shouts, "I WON'T!" LV
tries to Crucio him again and Harry throws himself on the ground to
dodge the spell, and LV begins his "We are not playing hide-and-seek"
speech, which ends, "Come out, Harry . . . come out . . . come out and
play, then. . . it will be quick . . . it might even be painless. . I
would not know . . .I have never died . . . ." (GoF Am. ed. 662,
ellipses in original).

So as Laura indicated, the Dementor *is* replaying Harry's new worst
memory, the graveyard scene, omitting some dialogue between "Bow to
death, Harry," and "it might even be painless," but nevertheless
causing Harry to relive the worst moments of the worst memory (or to
relive the worst memory in its essence rather than scene-by-scene). 

Whatever the significance of the other voices in Harry's head (IMO, at
least one is his conscience or better self), this scene is a clear-cut
instance of a Dementor making Harry relive a terrible memory and not
of LV himself, or the spirit of LV, speaking as a voice in Harry's mind.

Carol







From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Sun Mar 21 04:52:10 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 04:52:10 -0000
Subject: Harry's shortest stay at Privet Drive
In-Reply-To: <c3fq5h+e16d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3j71q+f9ve@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93542

> 
> Carol:
dutifully snipping
I don't think he'd (DD)go so far as to illegally teach
> them to apparate at sixteen since it would be a law rather than a
> school rule that he'd be breaking. 

Much more dutiful snipping

Sue, who has fallen remarkably behind on the posts here:

I don't recall there being canon that people can't *learn* to 
apparate before they are 17, just that they cannot be licensed to do 
it until after their 17th birthday.  It could sort of be like a 
drivers license, you spend quite a while learning and even get a 
permit to practice before you are licensed.

That's how I thought it worked anyway.  If that is the case, it would 
be quite unremarkable for anyone to teach the trio to apparate, only 
their use of it to move about freely would be a problem.

My thoughts,
Sue




From greatelderone at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 21 04:52:43 2004
From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 04:52:43 -0000
Subject: Why didn't  Lily have to die?
In-Reply-To: <c3hn8q+1nsq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3j72r+huta@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93543

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mad_maxime" <mad_maxime at h...> 
wrote:
> Max replies:
> 
> But he *was* stupid enough to see her as no threat. How else can you
> read the situation

That there was a specific reason why he didn't kill her initially and 
that we'll learn more of it in the latter books. 

> If he had *really* seen her as a threat, he
> would have killed her right off the bat as he did with James, or at
> least incapacitated her in some way. 

Which just deepens the mystery. Voldemort doesn't kill her despite 
the many strikes against her including her heritage, her part as one 
of the order and someone who has defied his power and her potential 
part in the prophecy. Despite all this he tells her to stand aside 
when normally he would have killed her. It just doesn't add up.


> I don't disagree that he saw her
> as one of his enemies, but it is clear to me that her viewed her as
> merely a nuisance, not a threat.

If so no doubt he'd still kill her. Judging by what Voldemort has 
done so far he'd be ruthless enough to do it especially if she's a 
mudblood and ootp member. 

How could he not see her as a threat is mystery to me.

> I see no reason why this action would seem "uncharacteristic of
> someone like him". Time and time again, in Voldemort's interactions
> with Harry, we see his tendency to want to 'play' a bit with his
> victim before going for the kill. 

Everythime he spared Harry he had a reason to do so. In COS, he 
wanted to know the details of his fall and in GOF he arranged the 
duel to repair his shattered image. 

> If I were to describe his character,
> two things I'd be fairly certain of, would be his arrogance and his
> fondness for gloating. Who knows, maybe he enjoyed the idea of 
making
> Lily watch as he killed her son.

Why gloat towards a ootp member that he's just going to kill? Kinda 
pointless there.




From greatelderone at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 21 05:04:19 2004
From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 05:04:19 -0000
Subject: Why didn't  Lily have to die?
In-Reply-To: <00d201c40e8f$a10e5600$0b83f343@hppav>
Message-ID: <c3j7oj+c06o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93544

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kimberly" <ekrbdg at m...> wrote:
> (Kimberly's comments)
> I can't even imagine what we could find out about her that would 
make Voldemort reluctant to kill her.   Clearly being a blood 
relative won't have mattered because he's already proved that won't 
even stop him.    I wonder what it could be ?    

Greatelderone:
Thats the one million dollar question here. Whatever it could be 
could be the same reason why she was able to defy Voldemort three 
times before.
 
 
> (Kimberly's comments)
> It is quite uncharacteristic but, looking at it from a flip side... 
in order for Harry to have the protective bond of Lily's sacrifice, 
she had to die to protect him.   Now, naturally Lily didn't know this 
and certainly Voldemort didn't but JKR did.    Perhaps she wrote it 
like that simply to add the element of Lily's sacrifice and the 
affect of it on Harry as well as the long term affect it could have 
on the entire plot line.    IMO, that's why Lily had to die in the 
book.    As to why Voldemort stated it later on, perhaps he was just 
remarking that it wasn't necessary.     

Greatelderone:
I agree her sacfice is one of the keypoints of the book. However if 
Voldemort was just going to kill her after her son then I don't 
really see how it's a sacrifice.




From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu  Sun Mar 21 05:17:24 2004
From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 05:17:24 -0000
Subject: Learning Apparition (was: Shortest..summer)
In-Reply-To: <c3j71q+f9ve@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3j8h4+d9d5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93545


> Carol wrote:
> snipping
> I don't think he'd (DD)go so far as to illegally teach
> them to apparate at sixteen since it would be a law rather than a
> school rule that he'd be breaking. 
> snipping
----------
What?  You mean like he would never go so far as to *encourage* two young 
teens to illegally use a  Ministry-controlled Time-Turner to subvert the 
Ministry?  I disagree.  In fact, I think it would be 100% reckless if no one 
taught Harry Apparition ASAP.  

I say if he's not granted special permission to learn/be licensed just because 
of his special case (uh, needing all the escape routes he can get basically) 
bythe Ministry itself, then I at least think DD himself would arrange for 
someone/somehow to teach Harry on the sly.  

It's simply ridiculous not to give this skill to Harry.  

Arya




From mad_maxime at hotmail.com  Sun Mar 21 06:14:38 2004
From: mad_maxime at hotmail.com (mad_maxime)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 06:14:38 -0000
Subject: Why didn't  Lily have to die?
In-Reply-To: <c3j72r+huta@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3jbse+msr5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93546

> > Max wrote:
> > But he [Voldemort] *was* stupid enough to see her as no threat.
> > How else can you read the situation?
 
> Greatelderone replied:  
> That there was a specific reason why he didn't kill her initially
> and that we'll learn more of it in the latter books.

Max replies:
I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
This theory doesn't make sense to me. If there *is* some mysterious
reason why he doesn't kill her immediately, Voldemort certainly
doesn't seem to hold it in much regard. Probably within one minute of
him entering the room, Lily lies dead on the floor.

So how important could this reason have been in the first place? If
there is something that makes him hesitate, why not just incapacitate
her instead?

> > Max wrote:
> > I don't disagree that he saw her as one of his enemies, but it is
> > clear to me that her viewed her as merely a nuisance, not a
> > threat.   
 
> Greatelderone replied:
> If so no doubt he'd still kill her. Judging by what Voldemort has
> done so far he'd be ruthless enough to do it especially if she's a
> mudblood and ootp member.
> <snip>

Max replies:
But he did kill her, very quickly and very effectively. He simply
asked her to step aside initially because he wanted to kill Harry
first (imo). In his arrogance, he saw a wandless Lily as posing no
threat to him.
 
> > Max wrote:
> > If I were to describe his character, two things I'd be fairly
> > certain of, would be his arrogance and his fondness for gloating.
> > Who knows, maybe he enjoyed the idea of making Lily watch as he
> > killed her son.
 
> Greatelderone wrote:
> Why gloat towards a ootp member that he's just going to kill? Kinda
> pointless there.

Max replies:
Because he gets sadistic joy from it? I never said he was smart.





From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Sun Mar 21 09:35:03 2004
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 09:35:03 -0000
Subject: Why didn't  Lily have to die?
In-Reply-To: <c3jbse+msr5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3jnk7+79gh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93547

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mad_maxime" <mad_maxime at h...> 
wrote:
> 
> Max replies:
> I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
> This theory doesn't make sense to me. If there *is* some mysterious
> reason why he doesn't kill her immediately, Voldemort certainly
> doesn't seem to hold it in much regard. Probably within one minute 
>of him entering the room, Lily lies dead on the floor.

That doesn't mean that there wasn't some reason that made him prefer 
Lily alive. It may have been a slight preference, but it could have 
existed.

> 
> So how important could this reason have been in the first place? If
> there is something that makes him hesitate, why not just 
>incapacitate her instead?
<snip> 
>He simply
> asked her to step aside initially because he wanted to kill Harry
> first (imo). In his arrogance, he saw a wandless Lily as posing no
> threat to him.

Why do you think she was wandless? (I may have missed stuff from 
previous posts, which I haven't read. Sorry if that's so.). As for  
incapacitating her, Lily was a powerful witch. We have seen in the 
OoP battle that curses can be deflected. AK is described as a curse 
that cannot be deflected (in GoF). Voldemort's first priority is to 
get to Harry, so once Lily refused to move, he wouldn't engage in 
battle with her - she may somehow escape him again, this time with 
Harry. So, he kills her. 

If Voldemort says that Lily needn't have died, it must mean that had 
she moved aside, he would not have killed her after killing Harry. If 
he had intended to kill her afterwards, it would be a lie to say that 
she needn't have died, right? 


Naama






From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Sun Mar 21 09:40:53 2004
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 09:40:53 -0000
Subject: The Podmore Connection--Percy as DD's Spy
In-Reply-To: <c3hr2s+e1em@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3jnv5+4ctr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93548

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> 
wrote:
> 
> Dumbledore knows The Order was infiltrated during the last war. 
> The thought of it happening again must be his worst nightmare. 
> It would be prudent for him to have some operatives that aren't 
> known to the others. And have you noticed that he  seems to be 
> able to anticipate Fudge's every move? *How* did he know that 
> the time and venue of Harry's hearing had been changed? And in 
> time to fetch Mrs. Figg, who can't apparate?  It can't have been 
> Shacklebolt, since he didn't know about it when he was 
> speaking to Arthur a few moments before. It can't have been 
> Tonks since she was off duty. Was Percy's rift with his family the  
> "lucky mistake" that got Dumbledore to the Ministry three hours 
> early ? 
> 
> The Order was going into hiding about the same time that Percy 
> argued with Arthur. What if Percy had second thoughts after the 
> argument, found that his family had already left The Burrow, 
> contacted Dumbledore to relay his apologies, and was recruited 
> as a spy instead?

Pippin, I agree with all your arguments above. But... it's in flat 
contradiction with JKR's answer regarding Percy. I really don't think 
there is any wriggle room on this one, I'm afraid. 


Naama, who would have loved for Percy to be DD's spy




From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Sun Mar 21 10:33:03 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 10:33:03 -0000
Subject: Harry leaving Privet Drive
In-Reply-To: <c3ivoe+rhes@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3jr0v+nus7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93549

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67 at y...> wrote:

> That's an interesting thought, but since he'll probably inherit
> Sirius's house (after a legal struggle with the Malfoys), I don't
> think he'll need another house, especially in Muggle Little Whinging.
> More to the point, I think the "blood" protection applies only when
> Petunia is alive and only against LV himself. If LV is permanently
> destroyed, the charm will no longer be needed or valid.
> 

What makes you think he'll 'inherit' Grimmauld Place?
For that to happen under UK law:
1. It would have to be stated in Sirius's will (godchildren are not
blood relatives and are not considered in the distribution of a 
deceased persons estate unless specified as a beneficiary). Word
of mouth would not count except in certain extreme circumstances
which do not apply in this case.
2. Sirius must be proved to be dead. Doing this is liable to cause
acute embarrassment to a lot of people - harboring escaped 
prisoners, conspiracy to pervert the course of justice, breach
of Habeus Corpus, etc, etc. Red faces all round. Expect it to
be swept under the carpet.

Unless otherwise directed, blood relations inherit. I really  don't
think that Sirius' mother would be happy  at the thought of her
despised son taking over  the  family pile, but it didn't stop him
moving in because she never legally disinherited him. She probably
didn't bother because she expected him to fade away iin Azkaban.

Since blood relatives who are possible beneficiaries were involved
in illegal activities in the circumstances surrounding his 'demise', 
the Malfoys  and the Lestranges  would probably be legally barred
from benefiting from his death.  So the house would probably go
to Andromeda Tonks, which makes Nymphadora an heiress! And
since she's a member of the Order, DD  can continue to use  the
place as his pied-a-terre.

Why would Harry want it anyway? Connections  to Sirius?
Not likely. Sirius hated the place and spent his teens and early
adulthood with James. He didn't consider it as 'home'.
Besides, Harry already has a home, or  had you forgotten?
Godrics Hollow might be a mess, but it's all his and his alone.
The fact that  he has never visited the site of his parents deaths
has always  seemed a bit strange IMO;  un-natural even. It
wouldn't surprise me if future episodes bring it back into the
spotlight.

In addition, there is James's family home. Where is  that? What
happened to it and who's in residence now? No, his portfolio
is much more diversified than some derelict dump with a mad 
woman stuck to the wall.

Kneasy
  




From Zarleycat at aol.com  Sun Mar 21 12:28:35 2004
From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 12:28:35 -0000
Subject: Crookshanks
In-Reply-To: <c3fukj+p59m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3k1pj+kd2j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93550

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "smtopliff" <topfor at a...> wrote:
> I have always held the belief that Crookshanks is more than just 
part 
> Kneazle.  I always wondered whether he was the pet of the Potters 
> (Lily and James and young Harry).  I have wondered if Crookshanks 
was 
> involved in some sort of Switching Spell the night of Voldemort's 
> attack.  Simply put, I wonder if Lily or James is stuck as 
> Crookshanks.  Why those thoughts?

Marianne:

I have to say I hate the idea.  Not because of the evidence you're 
lining up, but because having James or Lily suddenly appearing from 
cat-form into themselves is like a magician pulling a rabbit from a 
hat.  I'd feel cheated if JKR resolves some of the mystery simply by 
saying "Voila! James (or Lily) has been here all along as 
Crookshanks!"

smt:
> First, our introduction to Crookshanks comes in POA when he lept 
onto 
> the pet store counter at attempted to attack Scabbers/Pettigrew. 
Ron 
> gave no indication that this was commonplace--such as a "not 
again!"  
> comment, which leads me to reason that Scabbers has not usually 
been 
> a target prior to that incident.  Hasn't been an issue in SS/PS or 
> COS. How did Crookshanks know Scabbers was really Pettigrew?  He 
> might have recognized him like Sirius did when he saw the photo in 
> the Daily Prophet. 

Marianne:
I don't know that Scabbers' identity is particularly important at 
this point.  Crookshanks is a feline. And, he's acting very feline-
ish here.  Had Scabbers been a garden-variety rat, I think 
Crookshanks may have acted the same.

smt:
> Second, the shopkeeper at the pet store commented that Crookshanks 
> had been there for ages...how come? (p.60 POA) Aren't Kneazles 
> favorites of small children and other wizard families?  And why was 
> the comment made--if you were trying to sell a cat/Kneazle would 
you 
> make that comment?  NO! You want the buyer to think it's killing 
you 
> to part with such a wonderful pet.  Hmmm.

Marianne:
Well, perhaps Crookshanks, cat-kneazle or not, has been there so long 
that the shopkeeper despairs of ever getting rid of him. As to why no 
one has purchased him, he's not described as the most comely feline 
on the planet. I've volunteered at animal shelters for a number of 
years and my experience tells me that the good-looking, cute dogs and 
cats have a much better chance at adoption.  Crookshanks is not the 
eptiome of feline beauty - he's staying on the shelf.

Plus, I'm not sure how Crookshanks' apparently long stay at the store 
has anything to do with whether he's James or Lily.  Are you 
suggesting that he has acted up before, trying to dissuade people 
from purchasing him on the off-chance that he will someday be picked 
up by Harry or one of Harry's friends?
 
smt:
> Third, how come Crookshanks is hanging out with Sirius the dog in 
> POA? (p.303)Harry viewed the two of them together when he was 
gazing 
> out the window of his room-- How'd they hook up in the first 
place?  
> Does Crookshanks--and other pets of Hogwarts students for that 
matter-
> - make a habit of wandering the grounds at night?    At the end of 
> the book, Sirius revealed that he gave Crookshanks the letter to 
> deliver to the Owl Office to purchase Harry's Firebolt.  Even 
> assumimg that in the WW animals can communicate on a different 
level 
> than animals in Muggle society, this is atypical of behavior of 
other 
> animals in the WW.  Even owls arent portrayed communicating with 
> other species on the level Crookshanks and Sirius the dog did, and 
> they understand where to go and what to do when given orders and 
> mail.  

Marianne:

In the Shrieking Shack Sirius says that it took a while for 
Crookshanks to trust him and for them to be able to communicate.  I 
think this damages your theory, for surely if James or Lily were 
somehow stuck in Crookshanks body, they'd still recognize Sirius.  I 
do agree that Sirius/Padfoot and Crookshanks do seem to have 
developed a high level of communication. Perhaps we're just supposed 
to accept it as part of kneazle behavior. 

Marianne





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sun Mar 21 12:39:51 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 12:39:51 -0000
Subject: The Podmore Connection--Percy as DD's Spy
In-Reply-To: <c3jnv5+4ctr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3k2en+12d2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93551

Pippin wrote: 
> > Dumbledore knows The Order was infiltrated during the last war. 
> > The thought of it happening again must be his worst nightmare. 
> > It would be prudent for him to have some operatives that aren't 
> > known to the others. And have you noticed that he  seems to be 
> > able to anticipate Fudge's every move? *How* did he know that 
> > the time and venue of Harry's hearing had been changed? And in 
> > time to fetch Mrs. Figg, who can't apparate?  It can't have been 
> > Shacklebolt, since he didn't know about it when he was 
> > speaking to Arthur a few moments before. It can't have been 
> > Tonks since she was off duty. Was Percy's rift with his family 
the  
> > "lucky mistake" that got Dumbledore to the Ministry three hours 
> > early ? 
> > 
> >snip<

>Naama wrote: 
> Pippin, I agree with all your arguments above. But... it's in flat 
> contradiction with JKR's answer regarding Percy. I really don't 
think 
> there is any wriggle room on this one, I'm afraid. 



Potioncat:  
Well, most of us can wriggle in the tightest places!
  
Pippin, I found your arguments even more convincing (not that I 
needed convincing)  JKR is acting like a mom who is trying to keep 
Chrismas presents a big surprise for the children.  No, I know she 
doesn't out and out lie. But all her answer did was confirm that he 
wasn't under a spell, she didn't give a motivation for his behavior. 
I know, his motivation could be pride/ambition or it could be doing-
what-the-Order-needs.

Potioncat defender of sons and potionmasters.




From stevejjen at earthlink.net  Sun Mar 21 12:40:54 2004
From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 12:40:54 -0000
Subject: Why didn't  Lily have to die?
In-Reply-To: <c3iurv+uhe9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3k2gm+thpb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93552

> Kimberly wrote:
> > It is quite uncharacteristic [ of LV] but, looking at it from a 
flip
> side... in order for Harry to have the protective bond of Lily's
> sacrifice, she had to die to protect him.   Now, naturally Lily 
didn't
> know this and certainly Voldemort didn't but JKR did.  
 

> Carol repsonded:
> I think Lily *did* know that she had to die for the "ancient 
magic" to
> work. (We've discussed the possibility in earlier threads that she
> herself placed a protective charm on Harry that could only work if 
she
> died to save him.) If I'm right, she could not step aside (even if 
she
> wanted to, which few mothers would) and she couldn't allow herself 
to
> be pushed aside, either: she had to be killed to activate the
> protection. That's why (IMO) she kept screaming, "Don't kill Harry!
> Kill me instead!" <snip> 


Jen: Yes, Lily must have known she had to die in order to activate 
the ancient magic. Not that she wouldn't fight for her baby anyway. 
But I don't think James knew about this part. Notice he tells 
Lily, "take Harry and go! It's him! Go! Run!..." then James proceeds 
to "put up a courageous fight" which indicates at least a margin of 
time for Lily to run if that was the plan. Instead, Lily stays 
around while LV and James battle, then faces LV herself. 






From Zarleycat at aol.com  Sun Mar 21 12:52:54 2004
From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 12:52:54 -0000
Subject: Regulus and Snape?
In-Reply-To: <c3fq9s+khd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3k376+8iej@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93553

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snapesmate" <snapesmate at h...> 
wrote:
> I know JKR said Regulus isn't saying much because he is dead, BUT, 
> did anyone actually SEE his dead body? Did someone just tell Sirius 
> his brother had been murdered? What if Snape was the one Voldemort 
> had given the assignment of killing Regulus to?  If it was before 
> Snape's conversion maybe that is what did it... maybe he couldn't 
> bring himself to commit murder. If it was after his conversion, he 
> might have just made a deal with Regulus.  Something like Regulus 
> should disappear somewhere tropical  and Severus will claim he AKed 
> Regulus.

Marianne:

Oh, I think Regulus is dead.  But, maybe Snape actually did kill him. 
JKR made the point of telling us that Regulus died "some fifteen 
years previously," which means he died sometime the year Harry was 
born.  Later in OoP we find out that Snape has been teaching Potions 
for 14 years. Which means he started teaching the autumn after 
Voldemort's defeat. That gives him time to kill Regulus, decide that 
Voldemort's path is the wrong one, and go over to Dumbledore's side.

I rather like the idea that part of Snape's sour disposition is 
really inner-directed.  He atoned for his deed by renouncing his DE 
path and helping Dumbledore in the first V-mort war.  Then he lands 
this good job at Hogwarts. But, deep down, he's never reconciled his 
actions.  Whatever he did to help Dumbledore's side, in Snape's mind, 
has never been enough to equal the taking of another person's life. 
He still feels like he should pay a price for it. He's still angry 
about it and that anger finds other targets.

Marianne




From gbannister10 at aol.com  Sun Mar 21 13:38:51 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 13:38:51 -0000
Subject: Harry leaving Privet Drive
In-Reply-To: <c3jr0v+nus7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3k5tb+uu9h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93554

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:

Kneasy:

> Besides, Harry already has a home, or  had you forgotten?
> Godrics Hollow might be a mess, but it's all his and his alone.
> The fact that  he has never visited the site of his parents deaths
> has always  seemed a bit strange IMO;  un-natural even. 

Geoff:
Why?

Harry presumably never knew about Godric's Hollow until he was 11. 
His movements have been (and are very often during holidays) dictated 
by the Dursleys; during term time, I don't feel that the Hogwarts 
staff would want him galloping off into the outback to look at the 
remains of his parents' house.

You may say, well what about when he was at the Burrow? well, he was 
busy enjoying his time with the family there and the thought may not 
have crossed his mind; there again, what would Molly's reaction be to 
Harry wanting to go off on a search like this? On his visits to the 
Burrow, there are usually factors limiting his movements away from 
the others - certainly Sirius Black (apparently after him) in POA and 
the post-World Cup problems in GOF.

I just do not think that the opportunity has arisen for him to make 
this "pilgrimage".




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Sun Mar 21 13:50:17 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 13:50:17 -0000
Subject: Snape, trying very hard not to smile? Or is he just allergic to cats?
In-Reply-To: <c3g7bf+gc87@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3k6ip+iumk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93555

<big snips of the discussion of Snape's barely hidden amusement> 

Pippin:
> I think Snape is showing consideration for Filch's feelings, 
> strange as it may seem. I see them as old friends, bound 
> perhaps by rather lowly origins and a common hatred for the 
> students. I firmly believe that Snape's background isn't quite as 
> lofty as it appears. His speaking style is quite a bit less 
> flowery and affected when he's talking to Filch--a traditonal 
> giveaway. 
 
Susan:
Perhaps a bit of support for Pippin's point of view--that Snape & 
Filch are old friends:  after the incident w/ Fluffy where Snape's 
leg was injured, it was **Filch** to whom he turned for assistance 
in treating it.

Interesting thought re: Snape's speech/language choice when he's 
speaking w/ Filch.  I'll have to look carefully from here on in & 
see if I can pick this up.  (Or perhaps he's just "toning it down" 
for his old friend? ;-))

Siriusly Snapey Susan






From vmonte at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 21 14:48:09 2004
From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 14:48:09 -0000
Subject: Why didn't  Lily have to die?
In-Reply-To: <c3hp6p+iqlk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3k9v9+kkrb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93556

vmonte writes:

I think that in general Voldemort is always underestimating the power 
of women.  He didn't see Lily as a threat at all -- in almost the 
same way that Tom Riddle saw Ginny: as a "silly little girl."  

I think that like Lily, Ginny is going to turn out to be a very 
powerful witch.  I think she will be an important factor in beating 
Voldemort in book seven.       

Sometimes I wonder whether Ginny is really Mr. and Mrs. Weasley's 
daughter?  Could she have been placed as an infant with this family 
for protection?  Or am I thinking too much?

vmonte out.




From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 21 15:02:50 2004
From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 15:02:50 -0000
Subject: Why didn't  Lily have to die?
In-Reply-To: <c3j7oj+c06o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3kaqq+t3k8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93557

I have been reading this conversation with great interest--it seems to get at the central 
dilemma of the series.

I have two thoughts that have occurred to me:<ul>
<li> LV may have intended the statement, "she needn't have died", to have exactly the 
effect on Harry that it has had on us--torture
<li> It may be that AK takes a lot out of even a powerful dark wizard like Lord Thingy. 
You'll notice, in the MoM battle in OotP, the Death Eaters don't simply blast away with 
green flashes. Why not? Well, clearly the magic is both difficult and draining. Perhaps LV 
wanted to make sure he could achieve his primary objective for coming to Godric's 
Hollow--Harry's destruction--and didn't want to run the risk of shooting his bolt by killing 
Lily. As it turns out, he is forced to do so. Perhaps (too many suppositions here, sorry) this 
is part of the reason that the curse rebounds on him when he is finally able to turn on 
Harry? (Just watched the first movie again last night with my kids, and the scene where 
toddler!Harry is gazing up at LV's wand really gave me the heebyjeebies...)
</ul>

Antosha, who is absolutely certain we're going to get yet another Rashomon-like view of 
the scene at Godric's Hollow in Book 7

- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatelderone" <greatelderone at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kimberly" <ekrbdg at m...> wrote:
> > (Kimberly's comments)
> > I can't even imagine what we could find out about her that would 
> make Voldemort reluctant to kill her.   Clearly being a blood 
> relative won't have mattered because he's already proved that won't 
> even stop him.    I wonder what it could be ?    
> 
> Greatelderone:
> Thats the one million dollar question here. Whatever it could be 
> could be the same reason why she was able to defy Voldemort three 
> times before.
>  
>  
> > (Kimberly's comments)
> > It is quite uncharacteristic but, looking at it from a flip side... 
> in order for Harry to have the protective bond of Lily's sacrifice, 
> she had to die to protect him.   Now, naturally Lily didn't know this 
> and certainly Voldemort didn't but JKR did.    Perhaps she wrote it 
> like that simply to add the element of Lily's sacrifice and the 
> affect of it on Harry as well as the long term affect it could have 
> on the entire plot line.    IMO, that's why Lily had to die in the 
> book.    As to why Voldemort stated it later on, perhaps he was just 
> remarking that it wasn't necessary.     
> 
> Greatelderone:
> I agree her sacfice is one of the keypoints of the book. However if 
> Voldemort was just going to kill her after her son then I don't 
> really see how it's a sacrifice.




From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 21 15:19:06 2004
From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 15:19:06 -0000
Subject: Ginny's Role (was Re: Why didn't  Lily have to die?)
In-Reply-To: <c3k9v9+kkrb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3kbpa+2t9v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93558

 vmonte writes:
> 
> I think that in general Voldemort is always underestimating the power 
> of women.  He didn't see Lily as a threat at all -- in almost the 
> same way that Tom Riddle saw Ginny: as a "silly little girl."  
> 
> I think that like Lily, Ginny is going to turn out to be a very 
> powerful witch.  I think she will be an important factor in beating 
> Voldemort in book seven.       
> 
> Sometimes I wonder whether Ginny is really Mr. and Mrs. Weasley's 
> daughter?  Could she have been placed as an infant with this family 
> for protection?  Or am I thinking too much?
> 
> vmonte out.

I have a memory of there being some discussion of Princess Leia!Ginny somewhere on 
these boards....

It seems unlikely to me, largely because it's so Star Wars-like a motif, and because JKR 
clearly knows the Star Wars films--who in the English speaking world (especially folks 
about 40 who love SF/Fantasy) doesn't know those films?

However, I do buy your basic assertion re: Ginny. It has occurred to me that there are clear 
parallels between Ms. Weasley and Ms. Evans, starting with the red hair... 

At the end of OotP it seemed clear to me that JKR was purposefully expanding the Trio, 
and that we can count on Ginny--along with Neville and Luna--to continue to play large 
roles in the last two books. Ginny and Neville's roles are, I think, well prepared for. They 
each parallel aspects of Harry's own personality and dilemma (Ginny's passion, her 
strength in adversity and her own battle against possession by TR/LV; Neville's loyalty and 
his 'loss' of his parents, not to mention the possible ambiguity of the prophecy). What 
Luna's role is, aside from a knack for random insights, only time and Ms. Rowling will tell.

Antosha




From meriaugust at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 21 15:20:45 2004
From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 15:20:45 -0000
Subject: Learning Apparition (was: Shortest..summer)
In-Reply-To: <c3j8h4+d9d5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3kbsd+vmtb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93559

 > > Carol wrote:
> > snipping
> > I don't think he'd (DD)go so far as to illegally teach
> > them to apparate at sixteen since it would be a law rather than a
> > school rule that he'd be breaking. 
> > snipping
> ----------

You can't get your aparition liscence until you are 17, but I would 
assume that most wizard kids practice before hand so they can pass 
the test as soon as they come of age, like the twins did. (Sort of 
like how us American Muggles can't get drivers liscences until we 
are 16 and a half, or our learners permits til we are 16, but we 
still start practicing.) So maybe DD could give Harry a little 
apparition ed? 
Meri 




From vmonte at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 21 15:25:25 2004
From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 15:25:25 -0000
Subject: Gilderoy Lockhart and Percy.
Message-ID: <c3kc55+j1tg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93560

vmonte writes:
I just reread books 1-3 and there is something very curious about 
Lockhart and Percy.  They are often lurking about, and always showing 
up at curious moments.  Percy in particular seems to show up at 
strange times throughout the books.  I have no real reason to point 
this out except that they appear to be spying for someone -- and not 
necessarily for the same person.   

vmonte
  




From vmonte at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 21 15:45:03 2004
From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 15:45:03 -0000
Subject: Is Snape a Snake?
Message-ID: <c3kd9v+on3c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93561

vmonte writes:

I know there is a lot of speculation that Snape is a Vampire or bat.
But what if he is a snake?  What if he is Voldemort's pet?  Is this 
how he spies for the Order? Is it possible that when Snape is a snake 
he is influenced by the snake charmer -- meaning Voldemort?!  Is this 
why Snape told Malfoy to use the snake spell during the duel, to see 
if Harry was a snake charmer?  


vmonte




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Mar 21 16:03:08 2004
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 21 Mar 2004 16:03:08 -0000
Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat 
Message-ID: <1079884988.36.20071.m11@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93562


We would like to remind you of this upcoming event.

Weekly Chat 

Date: Sunday, March 21, 2004 
Time: 11:00AM - 7:00PM CST (GMT-06:00) 

Hi everyone! 

Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern, 7
pm UK time.  *Chat times are not changing for Daylight
Saving/Summer Time.* Chat generally goes on for about 5 hours,
but can last as long as people want it to last.

Go into any Yahoo chat room and type /join HP:1 
For further info, see the Humongous BigFile, section 3.3.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/hbfile.html#33

Hope to see you there!  
 

 





From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Sun Mar 21 16:17:47 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 21 Mar 2004 17:17:47 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why didn't  Lily have to die?
Message-ID: <20040321161747.0198130E4EE@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 93563

> vmonte writes:
> 
> I think that in general Voldemort is always underestimating the power 
> of women.  He didn't see Lily as a threat at all -- in almost the 
> same way that Tom Riddle saw Ginny: as a "silly little girl."  

Not necessarily. WW is very equal as far women rights go. Bella is one of the most prominent DE. And Ginny in Cos was a "silly little girl."
 
> Sometimes I wonder whether Ginny is really Mr. and Mrs. Weasley's 
> daughter?  Could she have been placed as an infant with this family 
> for protection?  Or am I thinking too much?

I think you answered your question correctly :D

Cheers, Viridis
________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!



From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Sun Mar 21 16:25:52 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 21 Mar 2004 17:25:52 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Snape a Snake?
Message-ID: <20040321162552.F40F930E509@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 93564

> vmonte writes:
> 
> I know there is a lot of speculation that Snape is a Vampire or bat.
> But what if he is a snake?  What if he is Voldemort's pet?  [...]

You mean Snape is Nagini? So in the beginning of GoF Wormatial fed Voldie milking SNAPE? I love this idea! But the images in my mind won't let me sleep tonight.

Cheers, Viridis
________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!



From ekrbdg at msn.com  Sun Mar 21 12:48:53 2004
From: ekrbdg at msn.com (Kimberly)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 07:48:53 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why didn't  Lily have to die?
References: <c3j7oj+c06o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <009301c40f42$ded6e520$5be6f943@hppav>

No: HPFGUIDX 93565

  

>Greatelderone:
>I agree her sacfice is one of the keypoints of the book. However if 
>Voldemort was just going to kill her after her son then I don't 
>really see how it's a sacrifice.
 

(Kimberly)
It could just be the thrill of the moment for him.   Even though he was going to kill her anyway, the time in between him killing Harry and her stepping aside (giving in to LV, obeying him, etc.), could have given him a few more minutes of a feeling of power.   I think at that point LV was just getting hungrier for that feeling of power and obedience, so he'd have taken however many minutes of it he could get.    

Kimberly


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From ekrbdg at msn.com  Sun Mar 21 14:07:11 2004
From: ekrbdg at msn.com (Kimberly)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 09:07:11 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why didn't  Lily have to die?
References: <c3iurv+uhe9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <01a001c40f4d$cf864c40$5be6f943@hppav>

No: HPFGUIDX 93566

 
>Carol:
>I think Lily *did* know that she had to die for the "ancient magic" to
>work. (We've discussed the possibility in earlier threads that she
>herself placed a protective charm on Harry that could only work if she
>died to save him.)

(Kimberly's comments)
Well we know that Dumbledore put the charm on Harry, he says so (OoTP, US ed. page 836).  "...and in dooing so, she sealed the charm I placed upon you.   Your Mother's sacrifice made the bond of blood the strongest shield I could give you."    

Are you implying that Lily had prior to that placed another charm ?   

(Carol)
>If I'm right, she could not step aside (even if she
>wanted to, which few mothers would) and she couldn't allow herself to
>be pushed aside, either: she had to be killed to activate the
>protection. That's why (IMO) she kept screaming, "Don't kill Harry!
>Kill me instead!" Whether or not she placed a charm on him herself,
>these words indicate that she knew she had to die. (If you're
>interested in the protective charm theory, it was discussed at length
>earlier this year and ties in with Lily's skill at charms, as
>suggested by the description of her first wand in SS/PS.)

(Kimberly)
I'm not so convinced, I would behave the same way if someone were to attack my household, kill my husband and then come after myself and my children.     What would make her think that he was coming to kill Harry ?   (and maybe I've missed a crucial point, could be)  She didn't know about the prophesy, or did she ?    I thought that only a few knew of it and I don't remember her being one of them.    

(Carol's comment)
>She *had* to
>die *before* LV tried to kill Harry because the AK would have
>succeeded if she were still alive to see it.

(Kimberly)
Absolutely, because if not, then there'd have been no sacrifice and DD's charm wouldn't have been sealed. 

Kimberly, who would indeed like to read about an earlier discussed topic of this


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From ekrbdg at msn.com  Sun Mar 21 14:10:33 2004
From: ekrbdg at msn.com (Kimberly)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 09:10:33 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry leaving Privet Drive
References: <c3ivoe+rhes@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <01aa01c40f4e$47bdbfe0$5be6f943@hppav>

No: HPFGUIDX 93567

(Carol)
> It would be funny, though, if he
>could just "banish" his luggage to Hogwarts, send Hedwig ahead of him,
>and apparate (with some red and gold sparks thrown in for effect)
>right in front of their eyes. A conspicuous bit of magic to embarrass
>and "disgrace" them in front of the whole neighborhood.

Now THAT I would love to see.   

(Carol)
>On second thought, I don't think he'll be able to leave so
>dramatically or permanently at that point because LV won't have been
>defeated yet and he'll have a whole school year in front of him before
>the final battle. It will be too soon to burn his bridges and safest
>to leave the "blood" charm in effect as long as he can. Maybe he'll
>even end up saving the Dursleys, or at least Dudley and Petunia. But I
>very much doubt that he'll inherit their house, or that he would want to.

>Carol
 
(Kimberly)
I didn't say he would want the house, just that he would still be untouchable by LV.   Of course, by the time the books come to an end, one or the other will be dead so either he won't need it because he's dead or he won't need it because LV will be dead.    

Kimberly


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From ekrbdg at msn.com  Sun Mar 21 14:23:16 2004
From: ekrbdg at msn.com (Kimberly)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 09:23:16 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry leaving Privet Drive
References: <c3k5tb+uu9h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <01c701c40f50$1128bfa0$5be6f943@hppav>

No: HPFGUIDX 93568

>Geoff:
>Why?>
>
>Harry presumably never knew about Godric's Hollow until he was 11. 
>His movements have been (and are very often during holidays) dictated 
>by the Dursleys; during term time, I don't feel that the Hogwarts 
>staff would want him galloping off into the outback to look at the 
>remains of his parents' house.>
>
>
>You may say, well what about when he was at the Burrow? well, he was 
>busy enjoying his time with the family there and the thought may not 
>have crossed his mind; there again, what would Molly's reaction be to 
>Harry wanting to go off on a search like this? 

<snip>

>I just do not think that the opportunity has arisen for him to make 
>this "pilgrimage". 

(Kimberly)
I happen to agree with you.  Just as Dumbledore couldn't find the proper time to explain the story behind the prophecy, the need for Occlumency, etc.     I don't foresee him having the time or even the thought to go to Godric's Hollow (unless perhaps the need arises) until perhaps the 7th book.   I don't see him defeating Voldemort and then the book ending.    I imagine we'll get either more information, a chapter or so of closing finality, "what will happen now, what did this all mean", etc. from JKR.

Kimberly


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From ekrbdg at msn.com  Sun Mar 21 15:03:08 2004
From: ekrbdg at msn.com (Kimberly)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 10:03:08 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why didn't  Lily have to die?
References: <c3k9v9+kkrb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <021a01c40f55$a15d4e60$5be6f943@hppav>

No: HPFGUIDX 93569

(vmonte) 
>I think that like Lily, Ginny is going to turn out to be a very 
>powerful witch.  I think she will be an important factor in beating 
>Voldemort in book seven.       >

>Sometimes I wonder whether Ginny is really Mr. and Mrs. Weasley's 
>daughter?  Could she have been placed as an infant with this family 
>for protection?  Or am I thinking too much?

>vmonte out.

(Kimberly's comments)
I agree with Ginny proving to be powerful.  I can honestly say though I've
never had the thought that she is their adopted daughter.    Mrs. Weasley happens to be quite a skilled witch.  I think she takes the job of Mother and Wife very seriously and when we think of her, that's what we think of first, not her being a skilled witch.   I can very easily see Ginny having gotten her powers from her Mother.   (Not to say Arthur isn't skilled but you know, he's Arthur... LOL)

Kimberly


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From mad_maxime at hotmail.com  Sun Mar 21 14:06:05 2004
From: mad_maxime at hotmail.com (mad_maxime)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 14:06:05 -0000
Subject: Why didn't  Lily have to die?
In-Reply-To: <c3jnk7+79gh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3k7gd+e0om@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93570

> > Max wrote:
> > This theory doesn't make sense to me. If there *is* some
> > mysterious reason why he doesn't kill her immediately, Voldemort
> > certainly doesn't seem to hold it in much regard. Probably within
> > one minute of him entering the room, Lily lies dead on the floor.

> Naama replied:
> That doesn't mean that there wasn't some reason that made him prefer
> Lily alive. It may have been a slight preference, but it could have
> existed.

Max replies:
Sure anything is possible. It just doesn't click or make sense to me.

> > Max wrote:
> > <snip>
> > He simply asked her to step aside initially because he wanted to
> > kill Harry first (imo). In his arrogance, he saw a wandless Lily
> > as posing no threat to him.
 
> Naama replied:
> Why do you think she was wandless? <snip>

Max replies:
I don't mean that she was completely wandless, as in no wand somewhere
on her person or close by. I mean that all evidence suggests that she
was not holding her wand up at the ready to attack Voldemort when he
entered the room.

> Naaama wrote:
> As for incapacitating her, Lily was a powerful witch. We have seen  
> in the OoP battle that curses can be deflected.
> <snip>

Max replies:
I believe it would have been quite easy for Voldemort to stun Lily in
some way if there was really a reason why he didn't want to kill her.
Especially since I don't believe she had her wand at the ready.
Besides, there is no evidence of a battle or duel taking place between
Voldemort and Lily (if we are to believe the memories Harry relives
when he's close to the Dementors).

> Naama wrote:
> If Voldemort says that Lily needn't have died, it must mean that had
> she moved aside, he would not have killed her after killing Harry.
> If he had intended to kill her afterwards, it would be a lie to
> say that she needn't have died, right?

Max replies:
Yes, personally I have no trouble believing that Voldemort might lie
to Harry (or stretch the truth in this case), especially if he was
trying to taunt Harry and make him feel defeated.





From julwalker7614726 at aol.com  Sun Mar 21 15:48:12 2004
From: julwalker7614726 at aol.com (ejom723)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 15:48:12 -0000
Subject: Harry as Gryffindor's Heir
Message-ID: <c3kdfs+erps@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93571

Just a crazy thought, but what if Harry is not only Gryffindor's and 
Slytherin's heirs, but Hufflepuff's and Ravenclaw's heirs as well. 
It's possible that with all of the intermarrying of the WW that Harry 
may be all of their heirs.  And, didn't the sorting hat song in OOTP 
say that to keep the school from crumbling a united front would be 
necessary? What is this is foreshadowing to Harry saving the school, 
because he is the heir of all of the founder's?  Just a theory.

Jules





From jojobinks1983 at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Mar 21 17:04:38 2004
From: jojobinks1983 at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Jo=20Hill?=)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 17:04:38 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: LV showing mercy to Lily?
In-Reply-To: <c3fvcp+fksn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040321170438.95097.qmail@web60801.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93572




> greatelderone: 
> why does a ruthless Dark Lord actually show an ounce
> of mercy to Lily 

Jo:

I like the idea of "Uncle Voldie", Tom Riddle Snr as Lily and Petunia's father. I can picture Harry and Petunia having a blazing argument culminating in an Eastender's-esque "He's my brother!!!". This might also go some way towards redeeming the Dursley's. So far Voldemort has killed Petunia's father (maybe) and sister so no wonder they're all a bit cagey, they may feel as though they are next in line. I mean look how they reacted to Dudley's dementor attack.

Yes my theory is more cliched than an episode of Dawson's Creek. I believe that Voldemort's evil is rooted firmly in bitterness at his upbringing in an orphanage as compared to the happiness shared by his father's "other" family. The hesitation in killing Lily was because she is his half-sister. 

 

JO, who thinks there are too many people called Susan




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From falkelihu at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 21 07:46:34 2004
From: falkelihu at yahoo.com (Elihu Falk)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 23:46:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Dumbledore a vampire?
In-Reply-To: <c3dh75+tqev@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040321074634.55903.qmail@web61110.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93573


philospeed wrote:

<< <snip> We rarely see Dumbledore outside of the Hogwarts environment; he's usually in his office, or in the Great Hall at meals.  In OOtP, he shows up (infrequently) at Grimmauld Place, always after dark.  Can anyone cite a case of D'dore being out in daylight?  Just a thought.>>

Elihu's answer:

 

I believe that the Quiddich field is outdoors, and that all Quiddich games take place during the day. Dumbledore showed up at Gryffindor vs. Hufflepuff in SS/PS.

 



Elihu
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





From pcsgames at toltbbs.com  Sun Mar 21 10:57:47 2004
From: pcsgames at toltbbs.com (Phil Vlasak)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 05:57:47 -0500
Subject: Learning Apparition (was: Shortest..summer)
In-Reply-To: <c3j8h4+d9d5@eGroups.com>
References: <c3j71q+f9ve@eGroups.com>
 <c3j8h4+d9d5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <6.0.1.1.0.20040321055323.030ca410@mail.toltbbs.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93574

Arya wrote:

<< <snip> In fact, I think it would be 100% reckless if no one
taught Harry Apparition ASAP. I say if he's not granted special permission to learn/be licensed just because of his special case (uh, needing all the escape routes he can get basically)by the Ministry itself, then I at least think DD himself would arrange for someone/somehow to teach Harry on the sly.
It's simply ridiculous not to give this skill to Harry.>>


Now me, Phil:

When Harry was thirteen, and snuck into the Sweet Shop in Chapter Ten of 
POA, we have ...
"Wow!" said Ron, looking very impressed, "you've learned to Apparate!"
      "'Course I haven't," said Harry. He dropped his voice so that none of 
the sixth years could hear him and told them all about the  Marauder's Map."

So Ron thought it might be possible even then.


Phil



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





From vmonte at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 21 18:25:24 2004
From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 18:25:24 -0000
Subject: Harry as Gryffindor's Heir -- united front by the children.
In-Reply-To: <c3kdfs+erps@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3kmmk+hte7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93575

Jules wrote:
It's possible that with all of the intermarrying of the WW that Harry 
may be all of their heirs.  And, didn't the sorting hat song in OOTP 
say that to keep the school from crumbling a united front would be 
necessary? What is this is foreshadowing to Harry saving the school, 
because he is the heir of all of the founder's?  Just a theory.

vmonte responds:
I think that there is a little bit of each founder in all the 
children. I believe that the school will be attacked by the DEs in 
book 7 and the children (from all houses) will unit and fight for the 
good side. (Remember they've been taking DADA lessons from Harry!) I 
believe the house, the statues, the ghosts, the elves, and the 
teachers will also fight for the Order. 

vmonte

    




From elvinprincess99 at aol.com  Sun Mar 21 18:48:27 2004
From: elvinprincess99 at aol.com (meggy11103)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 18:48:27 -0000
Subject: TeaCups
Message-ID: <c3ko1r+5nio@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93576

In one of the end-ish (?) chapters of OotP, Harry, Ron and Hermione 
are in Charms and they're doing some-sort of leg-sprouting charm to 
their tea cups. Hermiones teacup is perfect but is so confident that 
it procedes to run fight off the table and smash, Ron's has legs so 
wobley and skinny that it too, eventually crashes (or gives up I 
forget)Harry's has legs so short that they don't even touch the 
ground but just hang there uselessly.
  Obviously, this scene holds some major (or minor) foreshadowing, 
but I need some help to crack it. 
  Ok,if this analization is correct,  Hermione is probably in for a 
big fall. Correlating with her cup, she has too much confidence thats 
going to lead her into a crash.
 Ron's cup is a bit harder. I think it means that he needs more 
support, or perhaps more confidence ,with his wobbly legs. he needs 
to be stronger or else he too will fall.
 Now here's where I need help. I can't get Harry's. Does he need to 
get taller? What do his short stubby legs mean? I have no clue.
                                      -Meg
 p.s
   You have the right to loose it with me if this topic has already 
been picked apart to the core.
 




From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Sun Mar 21 18:53:41 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 18:53:41 +0000
Subject: TBAY: The good news is...
Message-ID: <12084042-7B69-11D8-AAD1-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93577

"Good evening.
The previous management having abandoned their desks, taking the tea 
money with them, a handful of enthusiasts have been living a dream: to 
bring Radio TBAY back to life. And this is proof that  we have 
succeeded at long last.

"My name is Snakey and I'll be specialising in hard-hitting political 
comment. Tonight I'll be holding an exclusive interview with the 
renowned Lord Voldemort,  trying to determine if he can make that 
all-important break-through in his political fortunes. Does he have 
that magic touch?

"The good  news from JKR is that Voldy will really be getting into his 
stride in the next book. It's about time. We're five volumes into the  
series and he's hardly killed anyone  yet. Any comment Lord  
Voldemort?"

LV:
"That's hardly fair, given the circumstances. These things take time."

S:
"Nor does your  dastardly plan to  rule the world look to be more than 
a pipe-dream at the moment -  that much-feared clutch of desperado  
henchwizards are currently serving time  in Azkaban and while you're 
hunkered down in some hidey-hole with a silver-fingered rat and a 
pissed-off Joan Crawford look-alike for company. Hardly likely to 
impress potential supporters, is it?"

LV:
"Good help is  so hard to find these  days. There was a time when I 
really did start to have second thoughts, maybe pack in this wannabe 
super-tsar lark and open a little establishment down Nocturn Alley 
providing discreet services for the discerning pureblood. But  of 
course I couldn't let down all those many thousands who rely on our 
organisation to voice their opinions. So public pressure and the crying 
need for fundamental political reform strengthened my momentarily 
weakened resolve."

S:
"Very laudable; most public spirited of you, But despite what you say 
the situation doesn't look promising from where I'm sitting. How would 
you describe the events up to now?"

LV:
"Admittedly it's all been a bit  of a frost so far; started so well 
too. All the headlines anyone could wish for, lots of street cred, 
opposition reduced to a  senile old ding-bat  and his bunch of deluded 
do-gooders - and then what  happens? Godrics Hollow, that's what. All 
the rat's fault, of  course. "Guess what, Boss! I know where the 
Potters are stashed! Now's your chance!" Might have known that a 
half-wit wouldn't have the full story. So - tip-toe through the tulips 
to chez Potter, no opposition to speak of, yet end up getting 
disembodied by some brat in Pampers!  I ask you, is that fair or 
reasonable?"

S:
"It seems you had your chance and blew it. Hardly likely to inspire 
confidence in the uncommitted wizard in the street, is it?"

LV:
"Hrrrummph!"

S:
"Ah, no need to take it personally Lord Voldemort, and I would remind 
you that wands are not allowed in the studio. Put it away please. 
Please. Thank you. Could you remove the snake from the microphone? It's 
dripping venom on my notes. Very good. Thank you again.
So  what happened then?"

LV:
"Ten years! Ten years in the arm-pit of the universe before there's a 
chance to get back to the top table - and what a chance! The 
Philosophers Stone, no less. Immortality, riches - just what the doctor 
ordered; all problems solved. Even worth spending months resting my 
chin on someone's back collar stud, staring at the inside of a turban. 
And it was so close! I could almost taste it, but then along comes that 
interfering, can't-mind-his-own-business, scruffy little oik Potter and 
Quirrell just  goes to pieces."

S:
"That must have been a real disappointment. Could nothing be salvaged?"

LV:
"No, it was back  to square one. Only for three years this time. The 
rat turned up again - claimed he wanted to help. Admittedly, he did 
have some use, luring the most boring witch since Hansel and Gretel 
swore off gingerbread into my  grasp. Interesting information she had 
to tell, once she'd had a bit of encouragement. Saw a neat way to kill  
two  birds with one stone - make a grand come-back and zap that little 
bugger at the same time. Give the lads a bit of a show, sort of a 
combined coming out and putting down, just to show who's who and what's 
what. Coming out went well; checked the recipe, cauldron simmering 
nicely, Wormtail even managed not to cock-up the spell. Worked a treat; 
got the white skin, red eyes, cute little nose -  really striking, I 
thought. Sent out the invites to the party and just for the hell of it 
gave 'em all a good bollocking  when they finally turned up. Suitably 
servile, all of them. Everything going according to plan."

S:
"So  victory looked certain. But it didn't turn out the way you 
expected, did it? What happened this time?"

LV:
"Why didn't somebody tell me about the wands? How can I be expected to 
nail the little creep when there's a wand conflict? Do I have to check 
everything myself? Remind me to have a few quiet words with Ollivander, 
let him know which side his bread's buttered.

"And the upshot is that he gets away *again*. There really is no  
justice. He couldn't spell 'cat' without getting a nosebleed, but 
somehow that bunch of incompetents let him get away. I'm going to have 
to think up something really special for that little toe-rag, something 
nasty and permanent."

S:
"Yes, well. When you do  perhaps we could send along our Curse and  
Poisons expert to give us a detailed report. But as it is your success 
rate is not very impressive, is it? Are you ever going to get him?"

LV:
"Nearly  did  it last time - got inside his squalid little mind, almost 
turned him against that old fool Bumblebore - never mind, got him to  
the Ministry, just  as I planned it, but that clutch of cretins let him 
off the hook and got themselves caught into  the bargain! I  couldn't 
believe it. They let  a bunch of school kids run rings round them until 
that other  mob arrived. Ridiculous. "Keep it quiet and low key," those 
were the instructions, "that way nobody need ever know what  we've  
done. Grab the Prophecy, stuff Potter  through the veil and Bob's your 
uncle" Simplicity itself. By the time I arrived it had all gone truly 
pear-shaped. What a disaster. Tried to retrieve it, but even I can't 
hold off whatsisname *and* possess Potter *and* rescue that mad bitch 
all at the same time. Only got one  pair of hands, haven't I? Sometimes 
I wonder why I  bother. Do they  truly deserve me?"

S:
"You know, Lord Voldemort, I think they do. But  despite all the 
setbacks, the author says that you're  gonna get another crack at the 
top spot. What do you have to say to our listeners about that?"

LV:
She obviously recognises talent when she sees it and this time I'll  
give it my best shot, I promise. Lots of ideas,  I can't be too 
specific at this stage, you understand. But I  think I can  promise 
some exciting developments in our strategic planning  and in the 
implementation of tactical  decision-making. It  won't happen 
over-night of course, but in the longer term I see no reason why our 
supporters, our many supporters, shouldn't have something to cheer  
about."

S:
"That's good news, isn't  it? I'm sure our listeners will follow your 
progress with great fascination.
Thank you and goodnight."






From gbannister10 at aol.com  Sun Mar 21 19:19:36 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 19:19:36 -0000
Subject: Why didn't  Lily have to die?
In-Reply-To: <c3k9v9+kkrb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3kps8+val5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93578

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" <vmonte at y...> wrote:
> vmonte writes:

vmonte:
> Sometimes I wonder whether Ginny is really Mr. and Mrs. Weasley's 
> daughter?  Could she have been placed as an infant with this family 
> for protection?  Or am I thinking too much?

Geoff:
Being away in Cardiff over the weekend, I haven't got access to my HP 
books (which usually are only 10 paces from my computer) until 
tomorrow but the thought crosses my mind, don't the descriptions of 
Ginny ibn the books match up with other members of the family, red 
hair included?




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 21 19:30:13 2004
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 19:30:13 -0000
Subject: LV showing mercy to Lily?
In-Reply-To: <c3fvcp+fksn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3kqg5+rmqi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93579

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67 at y...>
wrote:
> > greatelderone: 
> > why does a ruthless Dark Lord actually show an ounce
> > of mercy to Lily 
 

> > Tyler:
> > I don't think it was about mercy.  IMO,  LV gets off
> > on the idea of having people cower before him;  he
> > enjoys seeing fear in his victims.  He enjoys the
> > feeling of dominance.  I think he warned Lily to stand
> > aside because he expected her to comply out of fear. 


bboy_mn:

Sorry, GreatElderOne, but I'm with Tyler and Carol on this one. RE:
Tyler's comment; I think you are right, Voldemort, in a sense, is
supreme in his own arrogance. In his mind the whole world bows before
his mighty power. So wrapped up in his own self-indulgance that he
fails to see the most common and obvious aspects of Human psychology.
No mother is likely to calmly step aside and allow someone to kill
their child unless that mother is also as hopelessly self-indulgant
and deluded as Voldemort.



> Carol: 
> 
> Lily was screaming at him to kill her, not Harry. I think he 
> realized that he had to kill her because she wasn't going to move 
> otherwise. Or he chose to kill her out of annoyance rather than 
> elbowing her aside.
> ...edited...
> 
> Carol

bboy_mn:

My position has always been that Voldemort really had no interest in
Lily one way or the other. He was in the room with his objective
(Harry) that was his one and only primary interest, anything else was
just an annoying obstical between him and his objective. So, he told
Lily to step aside; he had better things to do than to listen to her
whine and cry.

So, 'step aside' was an act of annoyance and priorities, and not an
indication of mercy. It's quite possible, and very likely, Voldemort
would have casually killed Lily anyway as he left the room. 

Although, I do personally think Voldemort has a policy of always
leaving one man/woman standing after a raid. Always leave one person
to tell the tale of what a mighty and powerful wizard Voldemort is,
and spreading the fear. Again, feeding his own arrogance. However, I
suspect the tale that people tell after the fact is not the 'great and
mighty' wizard story that Voldemort assumes. I think it's more likely
to be the story of what a totally mad, ruthless, nut case that
Voldemort is.

One last thought, do you think an arrogant nut case like Voldemort has
even given a seconds thought to what it takes to rule a county?
...even one thought to the day to day administration necessary to keep
a country running functionally. I don't think so. 

Like all evil arrogant dictators and would be kings, Voldemort see
himself standing on a balcony looking out over a wizard world that is
bowing at this feet. Since these evil overlord idiots are so engulfed
in their own grandeur and irrational thinking, the are able to conqure
worlds, but they are hopelessly incapable of ruling them. Consequently
the world gradually slide deeper and deeper into chaos and disfunction.

Remember, Tyranny is the architect of it's own doom, and you heard it
here first.

bboy_mn








From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 21 19:39:38 2004
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 19:39:38 -0000
Subject: TeaCups
In-Reply-To: <c3ko1r+5nio@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3kr1q+cee@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93580

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meggy11103"
<elvinprincess99 at a...> wrote:
> In one of the end-ish (?) chapters of OotP, Harry, Ron and Hermione 
> are in Charms and they're doing some-sort of leg-sprouting charm to 
> their tea cups.  ...edited..

>
>  Now here's where I need help. I can't get Harry's. Does he need to 
> get taller? What do his short stubby legs mean? I have no clue.
> -Meg


bboy_mn:

I'm not sure I believe the foreshadowing teacup theory, but Harry's
metaphor is obvious, he needs to grow bigger (figuratively) and
stronger before he can tackle Voldemort.

On the otherhand, it could just mean that Harry and Ron need to pay
more attention in class and concentrate on their work. If you
remember, they are using the destraction of Charms Class to have a
private conversation about other things, and are therefore distracted
from the charm they are suppose to be doing.

Just a thought.

bboy_mn









From dk59us at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 21 20:14:35 2004
From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 20:14:35 -0000
Subject: Harry as Gryffindor's Heir -- united front by the children.
In-Reply-To: <c3kmmk+hte7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3kt3b+rmoq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93581

<much snipping>
Jules wrote:
And, didn't the sorting hat song in OOTP say that to keep the school
from crumbling a united front would be necessary? 

vmonte responds:
I believe that the school will be attacked by the DEs in 
book 7 and the children (from all houses) will unite and fight for
the good side. (Remember they've been taking DADA lessons from Harry!)

Now Eustace_Scrubb:
However, were any Slytherins in the DA?  I don't recall any...else
there wouldn't be so much theorizing about who the "good Slytherin"
might be.

So for _all houses_ to unite in Book 7, JKR has to do a major bit of
character development involving not just a few Slytherins, but the
house in general.  Right now, there's not much foundation on which
to build a more sympathetic set of Slytherins. 

I also wonder whether Umbridge taught the members of the Inquisitorial
Squad anything much useful (or even if she was capable of doing
so)...if so, combined with the fact that several have DE parents, the
remnants of the IS could in fact develop into a 5th-column Anti-DA
(again, if the DEs children return to school in the first place). 
And were _any_ members of the IS non-Slytherins?

Eustace_Scrubb




From helenhorsley at hotmail.com  Sun Mar 21 20:41:18 2004
From: helenhorsley at hotmail.com (dorapye)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 20:41:18 -0000
Subject: Learning Apparition (was: Shortest..summer)
In-Reply-To: <c3kbsd+vmtb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3kule+ljdp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93582

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" <meriaugust at y...> 
wrote:
> 
> You can't get your aparition liscence until you are 17, but I 
would 
> assume that most wizard kids practice before hand so they can pass 
> the test as soon as they come of age, like the twins did. (Sort of 
> like how us American Muggles can't get drivers liscences until we 
> are 16 and a half, or our learners permits til we are 16, but we 
> still start practicing.) So maybe DD could give Harry a little 
> apparition ed? 

dorapye:
Ah, but in the UK, you can't actually *get* your 'Provisional 
Driving Licence' in order to learn to drive until your 17th 
birthday...can't help thinking that JKR would be more likely to 
apply UK RW rules to her WW than, well, elsewhere rules...

However, had a thought about DD teaching Harry and Co to Apparate a 
bit sooner than legally allowed and it occurred to me that during 
the whole DoM battle, all the kids were most probably breaking the 
Restriction of Underage Magic law, as they were outside Hogwarts. 
(Have I got that right?)

At the end of OotP we see no repercussions for this law-breaking, 
which presumably mean that, with Fudge forced into an embarrassing 
retraction of his previous assertion about Lord Thingy, DD managed 
to negotiate the dropping of any charges against his students.

Is it possible that with Fudge's admission to the WW the LV is 
indeed back, DD has also managed to negotiate a slackening of the 
RoUM law for Harry, since it is clear that his life is in constant 
threat from LV now? A kind of no-questions-asked and no-sanctions-
applied situation should Harry use magic outside of Hogwarts, during 
that summer..?

This could then signal a general loosening of the Ministry laws with 
regards to Harry in particular, but perhaps also other Hogwarts 
students, as DD prepares him for battle.  If this is the case, I'm 
sure, as many people have suggested, that Apparition laws would be 
amongst thtose that DD, and the Ministry, would choose to ignore, 
for Harry's sake.

Whadya think?

dorapye, going back to lurking for now




From gsanderson at cfl.rr.com  Sun Mar 21 20:43:32 2004
From: gsanderson at cfl.rr.com (gsanderson at cfl.rr.com)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 20:43:32 -0000
Subject: Uniting the school (was Re: Harry as Gryffindor's Heir)
In-Reply-To: <c3kdfs+erps@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3kupk+9vhb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93583

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ejom723" 
<julwalker7614726 at a...> wrote:
> Just a crazy thought, but what if Harry is not only Gryffindor's 
and 
> Slytherin's heirs, but Hufflepuff's and Ravenclaw's heirs as well. 
> It's possible that with all of the intermarrying of the WW that 
Harry 
> may be all of their heirs.  And, didn't the sorting hat song in 
OOTP 
> say that to keep the school from crumbling a united front would be 
> necessary? What is this is foreshadowing to Harry saving the 
school, 
> because he is the heir of all of the founder's?  Just a theory.
> 
> Jules

I'm not sure that Harry needs to be the heir of anyone to unite the 
school.  If the DA continues, he has already done that without any 
help from his blood at all.  There are no Slytherin's in DA, but all 
the other houses are well-represented.  This actually appears to 
suggest a recreation of history when Syltherin (the wizard) left the 
school.

I wonder what direction the DA will take now that they do not have to 
operate in secret.  Will it become a club or will the new DADA 
teacher either render it unnecessary or impossible?  I wonder who 
Dumbledore will find next year.

Kristen




From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com  Sun Mar 21 20:51:08 2004
From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 20:51:08 -0000
Subject: FILK: OK, I Lied
Message-ID: <c3kv7s+jt1l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93584

Song #9 for my CoS musical A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the 
Chamber. 

OK, I Lied (CoS, Chap. 16)

To the tune of Bring Me My Bride, from Sondheim's A Funny Thing 
Happened on the Way to the Forum 

Text and a brief excerpt here (you'll have to scroll down)

http://users.bestweb.net/~foosie/forum.htm

Dedicated to Lilac

NOTE: The device of having Lockhart accompanied by a Chorus of his 
own images is borrowed, with thanks, from Pippin. 

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/faculty/lockhart.htm#Dark_Defense_Tutori
al

Also, I just made up a middle initial for Lockhart so his name would 
scan properly to Miles Gloriosus 

THE SCENE: The DADA Professor's office. With a flourish of trumpets, 
LOCKHART is seen hurriedly packing. As he sings, he is accompanied by 
a CHORUS of LOCKHART IMAGES on the covers of his books

LOCKHART (spoken):
Stand aside, everyone! I have large trunks!

CHORUS OF LOCKHART IMAGES:
For, feit, for, feit

LOCKHART:
It's now time to flee, the game's forfeit 

CHORUS OF LOCKHART IMAGES:
For, feit, for, feit
Left, Right? Left, Right?

(A loud knocking on the  door)

LOCKHART:
Just tell them I've already left, right?

CHORUS OF LOCKHART IMAGES:
Right! Left! . . . Uh . . . Ri . . . Uh . . . Left!

(The door swings open, revealing HARRY and RON, who enter)

LOCKHART :
Yikes!

HARRY (spoken)
Hail, Gilderoy J. Lockhart. Welcome to our cause, great Defense 
Professor. Victory awaits you.

(LOCKHART tries unsuccessfully to barge out the door past HARRY & RON)

LOCKHART:
(spoken) One side
..
(music) I lied! I lied!
My deeds are all denied!
To Harry and to young Ron I must confide!
Ginny is trapped
My job title I've scrapped
There are books to author
Signings to sign
For fans who are enrapt!

CHORUS OF LOCKHART IMAGES:
Look at our fees!
Look at our sales!
Look at them!

LOCKHART:
All from telling my tales!
So I fudged some details
.

I lied! I lied!
OK, OK, I lied!
My teaching Dark Arts Defense is not applied!
I'm just a sham
It's time for me to scram
There are yarns to pilfer
Legends to swipe
And tours in which I ham!

HARRY & RON
Oh, what a dolt!
Oh, what a heel!
He has the rigid backbone of an eel!

LOCKHART:
I hate this ordeal!

I, Gilderoy J. Lockhart,
I, wanderer with werewolves,
I, the gadder with the ghoul,
The master of the duel 
Five times voted most cool,
The traveler with the troll,
Each memory I stole!

LOCKHART & (IMAGES)
I, Gilderoy J. Lockhart (Him, Gilderoy J. Lockhart)
I, parable of swindlers (Him, parable of swindlers) 

CHORUS OF LOCKHART IMAGES:
A Wiz among Wiz
At least in show biz!

LOCKHART:
I, accomplishments compiled
The Wizard World beguiled
Could yet end up reviled
My exit now delayed,
I am so afraid!

HARRY & RON
Look at him sweat
Look at him shake
Wouldn't you bet that this threat
Proves him merely a rake?

RON 
This is the sweatiest threat ever faced by this flake
So fake. . .

(Segue to the underground corridor leading to the Chamber, as 
LOCKHART seizes RON'S wand)

LOCKHART:
Your wand! Your wand! 
I'll now escape your bonds!
The fabled stream of Lethe is like a pond!
Adventures end!
Your minds I'll apprehend
There are thoughts to be erasing,
Selves to be effacing
Consciousness I shall obliterate!
Obliviate!

SEMI-CHORUS I OF LOCKHART IMAGES (off-stage):
Obliviate!

SEMI-CHORUS II OF LOCKHART IMAGES (off-stage): :
Obliviate!

    -	CMC (and that's the funny thing that happened on the way to 
the Chamber)

HARRY POTTER FILKS 
http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm 





From helenhorsley at hotmail.com  Sun Mar 21 21:13:06 2004
From: helenhorsley at hotmail.com (dorapye)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 21:13:06 -0000
Subject: LV showing mercy to Lily?
In-Reply-To: <20040321170438.95097.qmail@web60801.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c3l0h2+uekv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93585

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Jo Hill <jojobinks1983 at y...> 
wrote:
> 
> I like the idea of "Uncle Voldie", Tom Riddle Snr as Lily and 
Petunia's father. I can picture Harry and Petunia having a blazing 
argument culminating in an Eastender's-esque "He's my brother!!!". 
This might also go some way towards redeeming the Dursley's. So far 
Voldemort has killed Petunia's father (maybe) and sister so no 
wonder they're all a bit cagey, they may feel as though they are 
next in line. I mean look how they reacted to Dudley's dementor 
attack.
> 
dorapye:
okay, re-emerging from lurkdom yet again, but have to blast some 
holes into your theory, as I've taken this disturbing little route 
myself in the past, but had to abandon it because it just won't fit 
with the timeline, sorry.

TR kills his father TR Snr and his grandparents when he is still a 
teenager; this we learn from the description of the Riddles' deaths 
some fifty years prior to GoF.

This means, for TR Snr to have begun a second family after his ill-
fated liaison with Tom's mum, Petunia and Lily would have had to 
have been born (or at least conceived) before 'their father's' death 
in (circa) 1942-46. Lily, in canon, is in her final years of 
Hogwarts in 1970-71, so cannot have been conceived before about 1952-
53

Okay, let's play with your idea a little -is it possible that TR Snr 
did have a daughter with a Muggle wife, and this daughter grew up to 
marry an Evans and have 2 daughters....? Don't know if it would fit 
into the timeline, though think perhaps it might.  That would then 
make Voldy Lily's half-uncle (? correct me if I'm wrong).  

Nah, not seing Voldy bothered about this vague connection, not 
enough to spare Lily's life, certainly, and more likely to condemn 
her as his hated father's granddaughter. That is, supposing he even 
knows this much about her family heredity.

I fear this Lily-related-to-LV theory is leading us up a blind alley.

dorapye





From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Sun Mar 21 21:24:53 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 21:24:53 -0000
Subject: Harry leaving Privet Drive
In-Reply-To: <c3k5tb+uu9h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3l175+cqt8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93586

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" <gbannister10 at a...> wrote:
> 
> Harry presumably never knew about Godric's Hollow until he was 11. 
> His movements have been (and are very often during holidays) dictated 
> by the Dursleys; during term time, I don't feel that the Hogwarts 
> staff would want him galloping off into the outback to look at the 
> remains of his parents' house.
> 
> You may say, well what about when he was at the Burrow? well, he was 
> busy enjoying his time with the family there and the thought may not 
> have crossed his mind; there again, what would Molly's reaction be to 
> Harry wanting to go off on a search like this? On his visits to the 
> Burrow, there are usually factors limiting his movements away from 
> the others - certainly Sirius Black (apparently after him) in POA and 
> the post-World Cup problems in GOF.
> 
> I just do not think that the opportunity has arisen for him to make 
> this "pilgrimage".

Maybe. 
He was 11 when he was told the truth, or part of it anyway. He's now
16 and not once has he asked questions or expressed any desire to
know more about the GH  incident since the first revelations, though
he obviously feels strongly about it, as evidenced by his initial reaction
to Sirius in the Shrieking Shack. IMO this is partly because everyone 
else seems to treat it as a taboo subject, but he must have loads of 
questions and no-one to ask.

No, the Dursleys wouldn't take him there, Molly might, depends how 
he broached the subject. But I was thinking of all those Christmas
holidays spent moping around the school as a suitable time. I bet
Hagrid would take him with a bit of persuasion.

Kneasy




From a_b_desert_king at hotmail.com  Sun Mar 21 21:33:13 2004
From: a_b_desert_king at hotmail.com (a_b_desert_king)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 21:33:13 -0000
Subject: Severus Snape and Davey Gudgeon
Message-ID: <c3l1mp+je4q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93587

I was re-reading PoA trying to find a particular reference for 
another post (which suddenly seems to be of minimal importance.  
Guess I'll have to do that one later)and came across this:

 'I heard about the match,' said Lupin, turning back to his desk and 
starting to pile books into his briefcase, 'and I'm sorry about your 
broomstick. Is there any chance of fixing it?'
 'No,' said Harry. 'The tree smashed it to bits.'
 Lupin sighed.
 'They planted the Whomping Willow the same year that I arrived at 
Hogwarts. People used to play a game, trying to get near enough to 
touch the trunk. In the end, a boy called Davey Gudgeon nearly lost 
an eye, and we were forbidden to go near it. No broomstick would 
have a chance.'
- Prisoner of Azkaban, Canadian Ed 1999, pg 139

Ok - so we know that to tame the Whomping Willow, one needs to touch 
a certain knot *on the trunk* of the tree.  And we know that Snape 
was the subject of a prank played by the marauders where they told 
him how to get past the Whomping Willow.  And we know that they got 
into *a lot* of trouble with DD for that prank.  

Could it be possible that Lupin is down-playing the near-injury (and 
protecting the secret of his werewolf heritage in the process)? 

And, could it be possible that Davey Gudgeon = Severus Snape?

I realize that SS is known in OotP to Lily, James, Sirius, Peter and 
Remus as Severus (or more accurately, Snivellus *g*), but perhaps 
that was how he wanted to be named, rather than by his *real* name 
which was Davey.  Choosing the name Severus could be his symbolic 
way of *sever*ing his ties with his family and terrible childhood.

We know that JKR doesn't mention names without reason.  What does 
this mean beyond the fact that SS has a truly human name?  Perhaps 
it's an indication that SS is less than pure-blood (Davey is a 
pretty Muggle sounding name to me, although Gudgeon is more magical 
sounding) and part of his choice in the name Severus had to do with 
sounding more like a pure-blood.  I'd be interested to see how 
everyone else sees this.

Heather




From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu  Sun Mar 21 21:40:50 2004
From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 21:40:50 -0000
Subject: Underage Magic during war & at the MoM (was Learning Apparition)
In-Reply-To: <c3kule+ljdp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3l252+ajg3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93588

 "dorapye" <helenhorsley at h...> wrote:
(SNIPED OTHER STUFF) 
> At the end of OotP we see no repercussions for this law-breaking, 
> which presumably mean that, with Fudge forced into an embarrassing 
> retraction of his previous assertion about Lord Thingy, DD managed 
> to negotiate the dropping of any charges against his students.
> 
> Is it possible that with Fudge's admission to the WW the LV is 
> indeed back, DD has also managed to negotiate a slackening of the 
> RoUM law for Harry, since it is clear that his life is in constant 
> threat from LV now? A kind of no-questions-asked and no-sanctions-
> applied situation should Harry use magic outside of Hogwarts, during 
> that summer..?
> 
> This could then signal a general loosening of the Ministry laws with 
> regards to Harry in particular, but perhaps also other Hogwarts 
> students, as DD prepares him for battle.  If this is the case, I'm 
> sure, as many people have suggested, that Apparition laws would be 
> amongst thtose that DD, and the Ministry, would choose to ignore, 
> for Harry's sake.
----------------------------
First off, I agree with you in the assessment that with Volde back and fully 
acknowledged, the MoM will have its hands full with dealing with the war and 
not have time or resources to so stringently enforce the Decree for UAM.  In 
fact, I tend to think that if they loosen that law, then Fudge can be seen as 
being accomodating, and increase some of the general public's feeling of 
being better allowed to defend themselves.  So a lessening of the law or 
temporary lift for some students (probably age dependant--perhaps, those 
who've completed OWLS or such)would free up some MoM resources and be 
seen as enabling the public to be better prepared--an all around political 
Good Move.

However, on the subject of the kids violoating the Decree for UAM while at 
the MoM--I disagree.  Perhaps whatever means is used to monitor/enforce 
this restriction is not actice while the kids are believed to be at school or that 
the Ministry simply isn't monitored becuase who would break the law rightin 
the Ministry itself?  But I do NOT believe they set off any alarms.  Nope--if 
they did, then we already know how those UAM detectors work, don't we?  
They record the spell that was cast.  Which would mean there was/is a record 
of Harry casting the Cruciatus (it did work to some degree--just not enough to 
totally work against the cruicio expert Bella--I think even this 'partial' spell 
would be enough to register as a spell).  I do think we'll see some sort or 
repercussion from Harry's attempted use of this, perhaps no more than 
Harry's own remorse and astonishment that he used it, but something at 
least.  But I doubt if Fudge had that knowledge, that he wouldn't use it to 
make some noise.  

In fact, I go back to support my belief that they're not monitored at all while 
they are supposedly in school because in GoF, if Harry's use of the 
Disarming Charm, Summoning Charm and any other spells he cast while 
escaping from the graveyard set off an UAM alarm then Mafalda Hopkirk 
could have helped to support Harry's story of Volde's return.  ("Yes, Minister, 
he cast a Disarming Charm, an Impediment Jinx and then a Summoning 
Charm in a cemetary in the middle of Little Hangleton.")    Oh, and in PoA, 
any spells cast while the kids were in the Shreiking Shack would have set off 
the UAM detector--they were in Hogsmeade, not Hogwarts at that time.  

Arya








From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 21 21:44:27 2004
From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 21:44:27 -0000
Subject: LV showing mercy to Lily?
In-Reply-To: <c3kqg5+rmqi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3l2br+lish@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93589

bboy:
>big snip<
> One last thought, do you think an arrogant nut case like Voldemort has
> even given a seconds thought to what it takes to rule a county?
> ...even one thought to the day to day administration necessary to keep
> a country running functionally. I don't think so. 
> 
> Like all evil arrogant dictators and would be kings, Voldemort see
> himself standing on a balcony looking out over a wizard world that is
> bowing at this feet. Since these evil overlord idiots are so engulfed
> in their own grandeur and irrational thinking, the are able to conqure
> worlds, but they are hopelessly incapable of ruling them. Consequently
> the world gradually slide deeper and deeper into chaos and disfunction.
> 
> Remember, Tyranny is the architect of it's own doom, and you heard it
> here first.
> 
> bboy_mn

Actually, I believe I read something like it in Machiavelli. The scary thing is when 
megalomaniacs like Lord Thingy actually manage to attract followers with organizational 
skills (a la Hitler) or have someone they think of as a lackey who actually has the brains 
and knowledge to wield power without the narcissistic need to be acknowledged on the 
one hand or empathy or sense of justice on the other.

I think LV's main weakness--aside from his fear of death, as emphasized by DD--is his 
utter contempt for what Dumbledore calls "we fools who love." Sacrifices like Lily's are 
simply unthinkable to him. Based only on JKR's sense of symmetry, I think we can expect a 
similar sacrifice to lead to Voldy's ultimate destruction. Whether that sacrifice is made by 
one of the Trio, or by someone else (one of the 'new trio'--Ginny, Neville, Luna--or a 
teacher, or one or more of the Weasleys, or someone heretofore unsuspected), remains to 
be revealed by the lady herself....

Antosha




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 21 22:09:55 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 22:09:55 -0000
Subject: Why didn't  Lily have to die?
In-Reply-To: <c3j72r+huta@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3l3rj+fjdp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93590

greatelderone wrote:
<snip> Voldemort doesn't kill her despite 
> the many strikes against her including her heritage, her part as one 
> of the order and someone who has defied his power and her potential 
> part in the prophecy. Despite all this he tells her to stand aside 
> when normally he would have killed her. It just doesn't add up.
<snip>
> How could he not see her as a threat is mystery to me.

Carol:
Unlike James, whom we know directly opposed him and fought bravely
(LV's own admission in GoF), Lily was apparently unarmed (wandless).
She did not offer to fight him--had she done so, he certainly would
have viewed her as a threat rather than a "silly girl." All she did
was stand in his way (obstacle, not threat) and *beg him to kill her
instead of Harry.* Eventually he regarded her as enough of a nuisance
and a hindrance to kill her, but it was still a "foolish
self-sacrifice" in his view.

He doesn't understand, even in GoF, that she *had* to be killed
*before Harry* for the sacrifice to work. Had he pushed her aside,
AK'd baby Harry, and *then* killed Lily (or let her live and grieve,
since she'd have been unable to destroy him), he'd have accomplished
his objective. As others have said, that objective was to kill Harry,
whom he knew to be the only person who could (eventually) destroy him.
Lily's membership in the Order and her previous defiance of him was
not important at the moment. Destroying Harry was. And since, unlike
James, she was not attempting to fight him, he saw no reason to kill
her until there was no other way.

(Whether he would have killed her later and gloated over her after
Harry was dead, I don't know. I rather think he would have enjoyed
seeing her suffer and would have let her live, knowing that neither
she nor anyone else had the power to destroy him now that Harry was dead.)

Carol, who is not doing a very good job of staying out of this thread!







From vmonte at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 21 22:31:40 2004
From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 22:31:40 -0000
Subject: Why didn't  Lily have to die?
In-Reply-To: <c3kps8+val5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3l54c+r4u9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93592

Geoff wrote:
Being away in Cardiff over the weekend, I haven't got access to my HP 
books (which usually are only 10 paces from my computer) until 
tomorrow but the thought crosses my mind, don't the descriptions of 
Ginny ibn the books match up with other members of the family, red 
hair included?

vmonte replies:

Yes she has red hair like the Weasley's and like Dumbledore once had.

vmonte




From entropymail at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 21 22:36:19 2004
From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 22:36:19 -0000
Subject: Severus Snape and Davey Gudgeon
In-Reply-To: <c3l1mp+je4q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3l5d3+i8vv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93593

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_b_desert_king"
<a_b_desert_king at h...> wrote:
> I was re-reading PoA trying to find a particular reference for 
> another post (which suddenly seems to be of minimal importance.  
> Guess I'll have to do that one later)and came across this:<snip>
Lupin sighed.
>  'They planted the Whomping Willow the same year that I arrived at 
> Hogwarts. People used to play a game, trying to get near enough to 
> touch the trunk. In the end, a boy called Davey Gudgeon nearly lost 
> an eye, and we were forbidden to go near it. <snip>
> We know that JKR doesn't mention names without reason.  What does 
> this mean beyond the fact that SS has a truly human name?  Perhaps 
> it's an indication that SS is less than pure-blood (Davey is a 
> pretty Muggle sounding name to me, although Gudgeon is more magical 
> sounding) and part of his choice in the name Severus had to do with 
> sounding more like a pure-blood.  I'd be interested to see how 
> everyone else sees this.

Interesting reference.  A gudgeon, by the way, is defined as a person
easily duped or cheated. As a verb, it means to cheat or dupe.  One
can be "gudgeoned" of the opportunities which had been given you.  It
is also a fish used as bait, such as a minnow.

:: Entropy ::




From entropymail at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 21 22:41:53 2004
From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 22:41:53 -0000
Subject: Severus Snape and Davey Gudgeon
In-Reply-To: <c3l5d3+i8vv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3l5nh+ag3l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93595

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "entropymail" <entropymail at y...>
wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_b_desert_king"
> <a_b_desert_king at h...> wrote:
> > I was re-reading PoA trying to find a particular reference for 
> > another post (which suddenly seems to be of minimal importance.  
> > Guess I'll have to do that one later)and came across this:<snip>
> Lupin sighed.
> >  'They planted the Whomping Willow the same year that I arrived at 
> > Hogwarts. People used to play a game, trying to get near enough to 
> > touch the trunk. In the end, a boy called Davey Gudgeon nearly lost 
> > an eye, and we were forbidden to go near it. <snip>
> > We know that JKR doesn't mention names without reason.  What does 
> > this mean beyond the fact that SS has a truly human name?  Perhaps 
> > it's an indication that SS is less than pure-blood (Davey is a 
> > pretty Muggle sounding name to me, although Gudgeon is more magical 
> > sounding) and part of his choice in the name Severus had to do with 
> > sounding more like a pure-blood.  I'd be interested to see how 
> > everyone else sees this.

Just wanted to add one more note: Gladys Gudgeon, Lockhart's tireless
fan, is also mentioned in passing, though quite a few more times than
poor Davey. Any relation?

:: Entropy ::




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 21 22:51:15 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 22:51:15 -0000
Subject: Learning Apparition (was: Shortest..summer)
In-Reply-To: <c3j8h4+d9d5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3l693+10cbt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93596

Carol wrote:
snipp<ed>
I don't think he'd (DD) go so far as to illegally teach
them to apparate at sixteen since it would be a law rather than a
school rule that he'd be breaking. 
snipp<ed>

Arya responded:
> What? You mean like he would never go so far as to *encourage* two
young teens to illegally use a Ministry-controlled Time-Turner to
subvert the Ministry? I disagree. In fact, I think it would be 100%
reckless if no one taught Harry Apparition ASAP.  
> 
> I say if he's not granted special permission to learn/be licensed
just because of his special case (uh, needing all the escape routes he
can get basically) by the Ministry itself, then I at least think DD
himself would arrange for someone/somehow to teach Harry on the sly.  
> 
> It's simply ridiculous not to give this skill to Harry.  
> 
> Arya

Carol:
Hm. I still think that *if* it's illegal to teach apparation to
students under seventeen (and Steve is right that we don't know that
for a fact), DD would *generally* abide by that law. I still see no
evidence for Apparation classes at Hogwarts, for example. (Wait before
responding, please.)

You're right that Harry is an exception to most rules and that DD does
more than the usual rule-bending for him, but I think Apparation could
actually place him in *more* danger rather than less unless he curbs
his tendencies to recklessness and jumping to conclusions.
(*Dis*apparating is another matter, as it would enable him to get out
of harm's way quickly, but probably you can't learn one skill without
the other.) 

I personally think that DD's strategy in Book 6 will still be too keep
Harry safe (but informed, this time!). In Book 7, when the war has
intensified and Harry is legally of age, things will be different.

Let's reserve judgment, shall we, and not call positions we disagree
with ridiculous? Even if a position is totally untenable, it should be
responded to courteously and respectfully or ignored as unworthy of a
response.

BTW, I understand and respect the List Elves' request that we snip
adequately, but I think that oversnipping (taking people's remarks out
of context) can lead to misunderstanding, which is worse than needless
repetion. I've had some problems lately with remarks being taken out
of context (not by you, Arya) and thought that might be the case here
as well. I had to go upthread to find out who I meant by "them." It
turned out to be HRH, so Arya's specific application of it to Harry is
not too far off the mark. But, please, everyone, let's be careful with
attributions, snipping, and tone!

Carol, with apologies for sounding like a List Elf, but I know I'm not
the only one who feels this way




From belijako at online.no  Sun Mar 21 22:53:57 2004
From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 22:53:57 -0000
Subject: Why didn't  Lily have to die?
In-Reply-To: <c3l54c+r4u9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3l6e5+5p41@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93597

Geoff wrote:
<snip>don't the descriptions of 
Ginny in the books match up with other members of the family, red 
hair included?
 
vmonte replies:
 
Yes she has red hair like the Weasley's and like Dumbledore once had.

Berit replies:

And it's not only the red hair that Ginny has in common with the rest 
of the Weasley family: Also the facial features and expressions. She 
is said to look uncannily like her brothers Fred and George when in a 
certain mood :-)

Berit
http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html




From mad_maxime at hotmail.com  Sun Mar 21 23:03:28 2004
From: mad_maxime at hotmail.com (mad_maxime)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 23:03:28 -0000
Subject: Why didn't  Lily have to die?
In-Reply-To: <01a001c40f4d$cf864c40$5be6f943@hppav>
Message-ID: <c3l700+uefp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93598

> >Carol wrote:
> >I think Lily *did* know that she had to die for the "ancient magic"
> >to work. (We've discussed the possibility in earlier threads that 
> >she herself placed a protective charm on Harry that could only work
> >if she died to save him.)
> ><snip>
> 
> Kimberly responded:
> <snip>
> Are you implying that Lily had prior to that placed another charm ?
  
> 
> Kimberly wrote:
> What would make her think that he [Voldemort] was coming to kill
> Harry ? (and maybe I've missed a crucial point, could be)  She 
> didn't know about the prophesy, or did she? I thought that only
> a few knew of it and I don't remember her being one of them.    

> Kimberly, who would indeed like to read about an earlier discussed 
> topic of this.

Max responds:

I don't know if this is the discussion that Carol is referring to, but
you can check out message #86575 - 'Did James and Lily Know About the
Prophecy?' Some of us believe that Lily and James did know about the
prophecy, at least in part, and that Lily actively conjured the
ancient magic that would allow her to save Harry's life.




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 21 23:26:51 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 23:26:51 -0000
Subject: Crookshanks
In-Reply-To: <c3fukj+p59m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3l8br+3aj0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93599

"smtopliff" wrote:
> I have always held the belief that Crookshanks is more than just
part Kneazle. I always wondered whether he was the pet of the Potters 
(Lily and James and young Harry). I have wondered if Crookshanks was 
involved in some sort of Switching Spell the night of Voldemort's 
attack.  Simply put, I wonder if Lily or James is stuck as 
Crookshanks.  Why those thoughts?
> 
> First, our introduction to Crookshanks comes in POA when he lept
onto the pet store counter at attempted to attack Scabbers/Pettigrew.
Ron gave no indication that this was commonplace--such as a "not
again!" comment, which leads me to reason that Scabbers has not
usually been a target prior to that incident. Hasn't been an issue in
SS/PS or COS. How did Crookshanks know Scabbers was really Pettigrew?
 He might have recognized him like Sirius did when he saw the photo in 
the Daily Prophet. 
> 
> Second, the shopkeeper at the pet store commented that Crookshanks 
had been there for ages...how come? (p.60 POA) Aren't Kneazles 
favorites of small children and other wizard families?  And why was 
the comment made--if you were trying to sell a cat/Kneazle would you 
make that comment?  NO! You want the buyer to think it's killing you 
to part with such a wonderful pet.  Hmmm.
> 
> Third, how come Crookshanks is hanging out with Sirius the dog in 
POA? (p.303)Harry viewed the two of them together when he was gazing 
out the window of his room-- How'd they hook up in the first place?  
Does Crookshanks--and other pets of Hogwarts students for that matter-
- make a habit of wandering the grounds at night?  At the end of 
the book, Sirius revealed that he gave Crookshanks the letter to 
deliver to the Owl Office to purchase Harry's Firebolt.  Even 
assumimg that in the WW animals can communicate on a different level 
than animals in Muggle society, this is atypical of behavior of other 
animals in the WW.  Even owls arent portrayed communicating with 
other species on the level Crookshanks and Sirius the dog did, and 
they understand where to go and what to do when given orders and 
mail.  
> 
> Still haven't resolved the "Lily and James came out of the wand in 
> the graveyard" issue, but I'm working on it.


Carol:
Let me start with your last observation first. James and Lily are
dead, just like Cedric, Frank Bryce, and Bertha Jorkins. The Priori
Incantatem sequence proves that definitively, IMO. Also JKR has said
frequently in interviews that Harry's parents aren't coming back. It's
important to the story line that Lily, in particular, be "properly
dead." Otherwise her self-sacrifice is nonexistent. As for James, if
he were somehow to have survived, despite all the evidence to the
contrary, wouldnit it be in his own "proper" animagus form, as a stag?

As for Crookshanks, I think his unusual intelligence is sufficiently
accounted for by his being part Kneazle (as JKR herself has stated in
an interview). Rather than being an animagus himself, he seems to be
extremely suspicious of animagi, first Scabbers and then Sirius. (I
don't quite understand how, but Sirius indicates in PoA that he was
able to communicate with Crookshanks and convince him to become his
friend. My guess is that he transformed into a man in Crookshanks'
presence, probably in the Shrieking Shack, and talked to him in that
form. Crookshanks does seem to understand what's being said by the
humans around him.) So Crookshanks' friendship with Sirius is not an
unusual cross-species friendship between cat and dog but an altogether
normal animal-human relationship with Sirius the man, which extends to
Sirius in dog form. Also note that, at the end of PoA, Ron holds out
his new owl (the future Pigwidgeon) for Crookshanks to sniff and says
something like, "What do you think? Just an owl?" and Crookshanks
indicates by his calm reaction that, yes, Pig is not an animagus but
just an ordinary owl. 

With regard to the pet shop, I don't think Crookshanks knew that
Scabbers was Pettigrew, only that he was not what he seemed, and like
a feline sneakoscope, he detected devious behavior or a devious nature
beneath the seemingly harmless rat exterior. And Hermione's reaction
to him, IMO, fits right in with her crusade for house-elf rights. She
felt sorry for him and wanted to rescue him. The pet shop owner would
have played up that angle (the poor thing has been around for years
and no one wants him) just to be rid of Crookshanks.

I do think that Crookshanks is interesting and will play more of a
part later, but I don't think he's an animagus, expecially not the
animagus of a character we know to be dead.

Carol




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 22 00:03:47 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 00:03:47 -0000
Subject: Snape, trying very hard not to smile? Or is he just allergic to cats?
In-Reply-To: <c3k6ip+iumk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3lah3+sn19@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93600

Pippin:
>>I think Snape is showing consideration for Filch's feelings, 
strange as it may seem. I see them as old friends, bound 
perhaps by rather lowly origins and a common hatred for the 
students. I firmly believe that Snape's background isn't quite as 
lofty as it appears. His speaking style is quite a bit less 
flowery and affected when he's talking to Filch--a traditonal 
giveaway.<<
  
Susan:
> Perhaps a bit of support for Pippin's point of view--that Snape & 
Filch are old friends: after the incident w/ Fluffy where Snape's 
leg was injured, it was **Filch** to whom he turned for assistance 
in treating it.

Interesting thought re: Snape's speech/language choice when he's 
speaking w/ Filch. I'll have to look carefully from here on in & 
see if I can pick this up. (Or perhaps he's just "toning it down" 
for his old friend? ;-))

Carol:
I'm not sure that Snape and Filch friends, but they're certainly
allies in the quest to find students out of bounds after hours, and
they were both working to prevent anyone from trying to enter the
corridor with the sorceror's (philosopher's) stone. (Did Filch know
that Quirrell was after it? I can't remember.)

I've always wondered why Snape didn't go to Madam Pomfrey (rather than
Filch) with his injured leg. Possibly he didn't want her to know that
he had entered the chamber with the three-headed dog to head off
Quirrell, but I can't see a good reason for this view since he's
working for Dumbledore and Madam P. is on the same side. (Anyone?)
Maybe he was trying to keep his suspicions of Quirrell under cover
until he knew for sure, or maybe he was trying to be heroic and do it
all himself (with Filch's help if absolutely necessary). Or maybe the
leg hurt too much to trek through the castle to the hospital wing and
Filch was near at hand, offering help. Does anyone think that Filch,
despite being a Squib, might have some special at healing or
repairing? After all, the task of repairing the Fat Lady's portrait
was given to Filch rather than to a witch or wizard. Apparently it
couldn't just be repaired with a flick of a wand.

As for Snape's speech patterns around Filch, he would have no need to
impress or intimidate the castle caretaker, so he could be more
himself around Filch than around the students even if he and Filch
aren't close friends. (I do like Pippin"s idea that he was showing
consideration for Filch's feelings about Mrs. Norris because I'd like
to believe he's a decent person beneath his sarcastic exterior, but I
think he was probably just concealing his amusement from the students
because he knew it was an inappropriate reaction.)

I think (no proof, I know!) that Snape's speech patterns reflect a
background of genteel poverty, a pureblood family fallen on hard
times, rather than assumed gentility that can be dropped in front of
Filch or, say, Hagrid. But, like SSS, I'll try to pay more attention
to the way he speaks when he doesn't know that Harry can hear him. Any
avenue that can reveal hints about his background is worth exploring,
IMO, even if it proves me wrong.

Carol




From gbannister10 at aol.com  Mon Mar 22 00:05:39 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 00:05:39 -0000
Subject: Why didn't  Lily have to die?
In-Reply-To: <c3l6e5+5p41@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3lakj+ha9p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93601

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Berit Jakobsen" 
<belijako at o...> wrote:
> Geoff wrote:
> <snip>don't the descriptions of 
> Ginny in the books match up with other members of the family, red 
> hair included?
>  
> vmonte replies:
>  
> Yes she has red hair like the Weasley's and like Dumbledore once 
had.

Berit: 
> And it's not only the red hair that Ginny has in common with the 
rest 
> of the Weasley family: Also the facial features and expressions. 
She 
> is said to look uncannily like her brothers Fred and George when in 
a 
> certain mood :-)

Geoff:
Thanks, Berit. That confirms precisely the point I was trying to 
make - that the family resemblances rule out her being adopted.




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 22 00:26:25 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 00:26:25 -0000
Subject: Is Snape a Snake?
In-Reply-To: <20040321162552.F40F930E509@front.interia.pl>
Message-ID: <c3lbrh+ht5t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93602

vmonte wrote: 
> I know there is a lot of speculation that Snape is a Vampire or bat.
> But what if he is a snake?  What if he is Voldemort's pet?  [...]
> 
Viridis responded:
> You mean Snape is Nagini? So in the beginning of GoF Wormatial fed
Voldie milking SNAPE? I love this idea! But the images in my mind
won't let me sleep tonight.

Carol:
First, JKR made it pretty clear in her recent chat that Snape is not a
vampire or associated with vampires, and the chief adherents of that
theory have pretty much given it up. (I could be wrong, but I don't
think that more than ten or so people on this list ever staunchly
defended the vampire!Snape idea.)

As for Snape being a snake (or able to turn into one), I think it's
very unlikely. Snape is known to be at Hogwarts during at least some
of the dreams in which Nagini occurs, and those dreams are concurrent
with the events they depict. Most important, he's at Hogwarts when LV,
possessing Nagini, bites Mr. Weasley in OoP. Snape's patronus could
very well be a snake (it would fit both him as a Sytherin and the
snakelike sound of his name), but I think we can pretty much dismiss
any idea that he himself is a snake, especially LV's constant
companion, the she-snake Nagini.

Carol




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 22 00:31:12 2004
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 00:31:12 -0000
Subject: Underage Magic during war & at the MoM
In-Reply-To: <c3l252+ajg3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3lc4g+hrnm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93603

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Arya" <dequardo at w...> wrote:

> 
> In fact, I go back to support my belief that they're not monitored
at all while 
> they are supposedly in school because in GoF, if Harry's use of the 
> Disarming Charm, Summoning Charm and any other spells he cast while 
> escaping from the graveyard set off an UAM alarm then Mafalda Hopkirk 
> could have helped to support Harry's story of Volde's return. 
("Yes, Minister, 
> he cast a Disarming Charm, an Impediment Jinx and then a Summoning 
> Charm in a cemetary in the middle of Little Hangleton.")    Oh, and
in PoA, 
> any spells cast while the kids were in the Shreiking Shack would
have set off 
> the UAM detector--they were in Hogsmeade, not Hogwarts at that time.  
> 
> Arya

bboy_mn:

Very much in agreement with you, so no arguement here, but I do want
to expand on a few points.

First, by all indications, and by the Ministy's own admission, Privet
Drive is being monitored very closely. I think the original aim of
that monitoring was the idea that if any magic did occur there, it
probably represented an attack against Harry, and that would mean
Voldemort and/or Death Eater activity. 

So, while I don't want to argue the details of Privet Drive
monitoring, I do want to emphasis that it is there and to a far
greater degree than say Diagon Alley, the Ministry of Magic, or the
Burrow. Those places, as well as others, are flooded with magic and
would be very hard to monitor. 

The second point is that underage magic IN the Magic World is probably
a petty misdemeanor and happens all the time. As long as the parents
are monitoring it and keeping a lid on it, and it doesn't become a
public nuisance, then the Ministry probably doesn't get too upset.

However, magic in the muggle world is something of major concern, and
could very well create serious problems that would require significant
Ministry resources to fix. In that case, underage magic would be taken
much more seriously.

So, I don't think the level to which Privet Drive is monitored
represents the lever to which the wizard world or the world at large
in monitored. 

Also, I don't think underage magic in secure magic space is take as
seriously as magic in the muggle world.

Just a few thoughts.

bboy_mn








From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 22 00:36:44 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 00:36:44 -0000
Subject: Why didn't  Lily have to die?
In-Reply-To: <009301c40f42$ded6e520$5be6f943@hppav>
Message-ID: <c3lces+fga7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93604

> Greatelderone:
> I agree her sacfice is one of the keypoints of the book. However if 
> Voldemort was just going to kill her after her son then I don't 
> really see how it's a sacrifice.


I don't think Voldemort's intentions matter. Certainly if he had
killed Harry and then killed Lily, her death would not have been a
sacrifice, regardless of his intentions. It would only have been a
second murder. But IMO it's Lily's intentions that matter. It's her
death that saves her son and her deliberate giving of her life that
makes her death a sacrifice.

Carol, hoping that this post is clear and abandoning all hope of
dropping the topic 




From melclaros at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 22 00:42:20 2004
From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 00:42:20 -0000
Subject: Severus Snape and Davey Gudgeon
In-Reply-To: <c3l1mp+je4q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3lcpc+b0qd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93605

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_b_desert_king" 
<a_b_desert_king at h...> wrote:
 And we know that Snape 
> was the subject of a prank played by the marauders where they told 
> him how to get past the Whomping Willow.  And we know that they 
got 
> into *a lot* of trouble with DD for that prank.  


We do?
Sorry, I might be having a senior moment here, but I don't remember 
anyone getting in "*a lot*" of trouble for almost murdering...oh 
sorry...that "prank". I don't remember any mention of anyone getting 
into trouble at all.

And Severus Snape is Severus Snape. Not Davey, Perseus or Xerxes 
Persepolis. Just plain old, good enough, Severus.

Mel, senile.




From jasnyder at intrex.net  Mon Mar 22 00:50:57 2004
From: jasnyder at intrex.net (Jen Snyder)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 19:50:57 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's strongest weapon
In-Reply-To: <20040319144530.778561EC7A1@front.interia.pl>
Message-ID: <BNEHIILJKELAIEMOJLOGKEINCCAA.jasnyder@intrex.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 93606

<Kimberly:
> This isn't the first time that Harry's emotion, not his accelerated
> Wizardry skills have saved his life.

It also saves him earlier in OotP in Privet Drive when he and Dudley are
attacked by dementors...he's failing in his attempts to produce a Patronus
to drive the dementors away UNTIL he thinks about Ron and Hermione and how
he won't ever see them again...

>Viridis:
>after long and pretty standard quest-and-battle several thousands pages
long adventure, when everybody expects great battle of wills, the final
fight is resolved by forgivness.
>What if Harry chooses to abandon his anger, forgive Voldie and offer his
life, rather than turn into killer?

I absolutely agree with you that the final fight won't involve wands or
killing curses...I think to destroy Voldemort, Harry will have to find some
way to love him, or love Tom Riddle...

Jen





From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 22 01:12:44 2004
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 01:12:44 -0000
Subject: Uniting of the school by the Heir and the Slytherins in General
In-Reply-To: <c3kupk+9vhb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3leic+s0he@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93607

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, gsanderson at c... wrote:

> 
> I'm not sure that Harry needs to be the heir of anyone to unite the 
> school.  If the DA [club/group] continues, he has already done that
> without any help from his blood at all.  There are no Slytherin's in 
> DA, but all the other houses are well-represented.  This actually 
> appears to suggest a recreation of history when Syltherin (the wizard)
> left the school.
> 
> I wonder what direction the DA will take now that they do not have to 
> operate in secret.  Will it become a club or will the new DADA 
> teacher either render it unnecessary or impossible?  I wonder who 
> Dumbledore will find next year.
> 
> Kristen

bboy_mn:

I'm troubled by the Heir of Gryffindor idea and it's many variations.
On one hand, it is a grand sounding scheme, but on the other hand,
with Dumbledore emphasis action and character over blood, how and why
would Harry being related to Gryffindor apply to the story. Why would
it be necessary? 

I could see it occuring after the fact, sort of a 'congradulations
Harry on defeating Volemort and his evil horde of Death Eaters, and,
oh by the way, your great great great great great great uncle was
Godric Gryffindor; thought you might like to know'. 

I could be there but it can't be siginificant if 'who you grow to be'
is more important than the manor to which you are born.

The DA Club-
My feelings on the DA Club are well document here (repeatedly and at
great, and somewhat annoying I'm sure, length). But none the less,
here I go again.

I think the DA Club will be one of the most important things to come
out of OotP, and I think it will play a significant role in the next
book (go ahead, call that a prediction).

There are no Slytherins in the DA Club because no Slytherins were
offered the chance to participate. Had they been given a change to
choose, I think SOME of them would have chosen to join, and would have
 chosen of honest, genuine, and benign reasons. 

Now that the club doesn't have to hide, I think they will be encourage
to open it to the whole school. Or, I think they will have one of two
option is they want to continue. One is to restrict it to a Gryffindor
club, and the other is to make it a school wide club. I think, with
Dumbledore encouragement, and the encouragement of the other club
members, they will open it to the whole school, and hope the no or few
Slytherins join.


The Slytherins-
I, however, believe that many Slytherins will join, some with a
genuine interest and others with the intent of disrupting the club and
harassing Harry. BUT, and this is a big but, Harry runs the club, what
he says goes. So, undoubtedly, Draco and his immediate gang will join
and eventually be kicked out of misbehaving. 

That will leave a few Slytherins who aren't that happy with Draco's
arrogance and bullying, and who are able to see that a world run by
Voldemort will certainly be a hopelessly disfunctional world. And more
important to ambitious Slytherins, that Voldemort's world will not be
a prosperous world. 

In addition, I am one of the people who believe that not all
Slytherins are bad. Being driven and ambitious is not a crime or a
sin, and within ethical boundaries, it is something to be admired.

If we think about the Slytherins who have interacted with Harry in
some way, and weigh them against all the Slytherin we never see and
that Harry doesn't pay much attention to, then we see that a vast
majority of Slytherins are just kids like all the other kids. They
want to go to school and learn, the want to please their parents, they
want to accomplish something with their lives. OK, they may laugh at
Draco's jokes, but Draco is someone whose bad side you do not want to
get on, and it's human nature to laugh at a joke, as long as the joke
is not at your expense. The majority of them, I guess we could call
them 'the silent majority', are not likely to be Voldemort supporters,
if for no other reason than there is nothing in it for them. 

So when Draco and his 'hangers on' get kick out of the DA Club, a few
Slytherins will stay. Why? Because they are more interested in
learning than kissing Draco's hairy... er... better make that stroking
Draco's ego.

The school will never be 100% united, but no society ever is. Yet the
four house will unite under the DA Club and Harry's guidance, and when
the time comes, they will stand together.

As a side note: I wonder if Draco will try and form a Slytherin only
DA Club after he is kicked out of the DA Club?

The New DADA Teacher-
Aren't we out of candidates? Last year (OoP) Dumbledore couldn't find
anyone, and the Ministry had to appoint someone. I seriously doubt
that Dumbledore will take anyone simply because the Ministry
recommends them after what happened with Umbridge. 

So who do we know who wants to be DADA teacher, who is also available
and knowledgable? I think it has to be Snape in the next book with a
new Potions teacher to replace him. That has the advantage of allowing
Harry to continue potions, but oo-la-la the fit Harry is going to
throw when he finds out Snape is the new DADA teacher. It'll be worth
buying the book just to read that one passage. 

Just a few thoughts, again.

bboy_mn













From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 22 01:22:49 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 01:22:49 -0000
Subject: Why didn't  Lily have to die?
In-Reply-To: <01a001c40f4d$cf864c40$5be6f943@hppav>
Message-ID: <c3lf59+of0q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93608

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kimberly" <ekrbdg at m...> wrote:
>  
> >Carol:
> >I think Lily *did* know that she had to die for the "ancient magic" to
> >work. (We've discussed the possibility in earlier threads that she
> >herself placed a protective charm on Harry that could only work if she
> >died to save him.)
> 
> (Kimberly's comments)
> Well we know that Dumbledore put the charm on Harry, he says so
(OoTP, US ed. page 836).  "...and in dooing so, she sealed the charm I
placed upon you.   Your Mother's sacrifice made the bond of blood the
strongest shield I could give you."    
> 
> Are you implying that Lily had prior to that placed another charm ?

Yes. Dumbledore's charm protects Harry while he lives with the
Dursleys ("Lily's blood"). The charm I'm talking about (which is only
theoretical at this point) would have protected Harry through Lily's
death, deflecting the AK onto Voldemort. I don't think Lily intended
to create any sort of bond between Harry and Voldemort, much less the
transfer of any of LV's dark powers to Harry. But, yes, I think that
the "ancient magic" that protected him *may have* involved a charm
that she herself placed on Harry. If there's no such charm, then *any*
WW mother's self sacrifice would save her child from LV. Either that,
or Harry was born with special powers that would enable him and him
alone to stop LV. I don't think that either of these is the case.

Again, this idea has already been presented and the pro and con
arguments made in more detail than I have time for here. The main
points are
1) We know that we'll find out something special about Lily in Book 7
(JKR interview)
2) We know from the "Diagon Alley" chapter of SS/PS that Lily's wand
was particularly good for Charms, as James's was good for
Transfiguration (a clue that forshadowed his abilities as an animagus)
3) The scar is shaped like an eihwaz (defense) rune (yes, JKR said in
her recent chat that the shape was not the most important aspect of
the scar, but she didn't say that it isn't important at all
4) AK curses don't normally cause scars (and of course they don't
normally backfire, either)
5) Lily makes sure that LV kills her before he AKs Harry. Otherwise
the self-sacrifice wouldn't work and Harry would be killed by the AK.

There may be some additional points that I'm forgetting, but basically
I believe that the self-sacrifice is not enough *in itself* to protect
Harry and that he was not born with that protection, so something else
is necessary to explain what happened. The charm theory solves that
problem and fits the available evidence. (I am not saying that the
charm placed by Lily is a fact, only that it's a possibility that I
happen to believe in.)
   

Kimberly:
> I'm not so convinced, I would behave the same way if someone were to
attack my household, kill my husband and then come after myself and my
children. What would make her think that he was coming to kill Harry ?
  (and maybe I've missed a crucial point, could be)  She didn't know
about the prophesy, or did she ?    I thought that only a few knew of
it and I don't remember her being one of them.

Carol:
Actually, she did know about the prophesy, which is why she and James
were hiding in Godric's Hollow and needed a Secret Keeper to hide them
from LV.
    
 
> (Carol's comment) >She *had* to die *before* LV tried to kill Harry
because the AK would have succeeded if she were still alive to see it.
> 
> (Kimberly 's response)
> Absolutely, because if not, then there'd have been no sacrifice and
DD's charm wouldn't have been sealed. 
> 
> Kimberly, who would indeed like to read about an earlier discussed
topic of this

Carol:
Hooray! We agree on this one, except IIRC that DD's charm protecting
Harry wasn't placed until after Hagred rescued Harry from the ruins.
I'm talking about a different, earlier, and wholly theoretical charm
placed by Lily herself that DD may not even have known about. Here's
where I think the discussion started, with a post by Mandy explaining
her version of the theory, though the discussion branched off in
several directions:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/89679

See what you think. 

Carol




From owlery2003 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 22 01:27:52 2004
From: owlery2003 at yahoo.com (Scott Santangelo)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 17:27:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Future DA club directions
In-Reply-To: <c3leic+s0he@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040322012752.63369.qmail@web60107.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93609



Kristen said:

(snip) I wonder what direction the DA will take now that they do not have to operate in secret.  


bboy_mn:

I think the DA Club will be one of the most important things to come out of OotP . . .There are no Slytherins in the DA Club because no Slytherins were offered the chance to participate. Had they been given a chance to choose, I think SOME of them would have chosen to join, and would have chosen of honest, genuine, and benign reasons. 

The Slytherins-


I, however, believe that many Slytherins will join, some with a genuine interest and others with the intent of disrupting the club and harassing Harry. BUT, and this is a big but, Harry runs the club, what he says goes. So, undoubtedly, Draco and his immediate gang will join
and eventually be kicked out of misbehaving. . . I am one of the people who believe that not all Slytherins are bad. Being driven and ambitious is not a crime or a
sin, and within ethical boundaries, it is something to be admired . . . So when Draco and his 'hangers on' get kicked out of the DA Club, a few Slytherins will stay. Why? Because they are more interested in learning than kissing Draco's hairy... er... better make that stroking
Draco's ego.

owlery2003 comments:

Harry's DA group is already larger than he thought. Of course, Hermione deserves most of the credit for pulling this off in the first place. In the same way, I think current DA members will vouch for others (maybe even a few Slyths) and their motives for joining. Generally, why would the DA ever accept any member whose motives would be suspect? It's a life and death struggle against LV, and no one knows the consequences better than Harry's immediate circle of friends. You simply can't train your enemies in your tactics. So begins the process of identifying friend and foe. The house system itself has a polarizing effect in this regard. It's easy to identify the Slyths as "the enemy." The hard part, and what I think we'll see in the next book, is that it's tough to tell who the enemy are. I think we'll see turncoats in the other houses, and unlikely allies from Slyth.


Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From I_am_saphir at hotmail.com  Sun Mar 21 22:05:27 2004
From: I_am_saphir at hotmail.com (met_ower)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 22:05:27 -0000
Subject: Vague Thoughts on Apparation
In-Reply-To: <c3g9dq+vq0p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3l3j7+vsu2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93610

Carol <justcarol67 at y...> wrote:
(big snip)
> I could be wrong, of course, and there might be an Apparation 
> teacher we haven't yet heard of at Hogwarts, or it could be one of 
> Madam Hooch's duties, since she teaches only first-years (and coaches
> Quidditch). But there's one hitch: As Hermione keeps informing us, 
> you can't apparate inside Hogwarts or on the Hogwarts grounds. They'd 
> have to go to Hogsmeade to do it.
> 
> So I don't have any answers, really, just my own thoughts on the
> subject. But if Hermione turns seventeen in September of her sixth
> year--an early birthday instead of a late one--you can bet we'll be
> watching her learn it.


Met_Ower:
If Hermione does have an early birthday, then there's the potential 
of a "major" plot twist. If I remember it correctly, Hermione spent 
almost a year (PoA) re-living days with the time turner. What if we 
add up all of those days?

Is it possible that even if her official birthday was in September, 
she'd turn seventeen biologically at the start of the summer? If the 
apparating lessons are not given in school, she could be sneaky 
enough to go learn apparating by herself, to surprise Ron and Harry.

If we don't hear about her at all during the next summer, or she 
seems to be hiding something then that might just be it! 

Met_Ower







From jujupoet29 at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 22 01:38:51 2004
From: jujupoet29 at hotmail.com (sienna291973)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 01:38:51 -0000
Subject: Hmmm - play on uncovering a pattern
In-Reply-To: <c3gpc3+8s28@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3lg3b+3sng@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93611

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lady Pensieve" 
<ladypensieve at y...> wrote:
> Sienna brought up an interesting point about the first three books 
> matching the second three, with the seventh being a stand alone.
> 
> When I read that, I remembered one of the things JKR said in her 
> last 'talk' - that this would be Harry's shortest stay at #4...
> 
> Do you think that it could be his last?  If Book 7 stands alone - 
> then it wouldn't have to begin at the Dursley's.
> 
> Any thoughts?
> 
> Kathy

Kathy - I don't think this is unlikely... it would certainly make 
for a big book 7.  I think thematically book 7 would have this 
pattern anyway to be effective. (Just my opinion)

Sienna

PS. Thanks for your support! It's always hard to guage the tone of a 
message in these kind forums and so I generally try to remain 
detached (where I don't have the benefit of body language). :)





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 22 01:40:38 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 01:40:38 -0000
Subject: Harry leaving Privet Drive
In-Reply-To: <01c701c40f50$1128bfa0$5be6f943@hppav>
Message-ID: <c3lg6m+8b99@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93612

Kimberly:
<snip> I don't foresee him having the time or even the thought to go
to Godric's Hollow (unless perhaps the need arises) until perhaps the
7th book. I don't see him defeating Voldemort and then the book
ending. I imagine we'll get either more information, a chapter or so
of closing finality, "what will happen now, what did this all mean",
etc. from JKR.

Carol:
There will definitely be an epilogue. Here's an excerpt from an online
article that talks about it:

"In a revealing interview for the BBC, JK Rowling has said that she
has already written the last chapter of the final Harry Potter book,
and that some of the boy wizard's adventures to come will make for
distressing reading.

"The billionaire author reveals that she has already decided the fate
of all the major characters, and hints that some could be killed off.
The programme, to go out tonight on BBC1, shows Rowling holding the
final chapter of the series to the camera and saying "this is it, and
I'm not opening it for obvious reasons."

"Describing the chapter, she says, 'this really wraps everything, it's
the epilogue and I basically say what happens to everyone after they
leave school, those who survive. . . .'" 

So we definitely will find out "what will happen now," but I certainly
hope she won't answer your other question, "what did all this mean?"
That's for us, as readers, to determine (based on canon, of course).
If an author's view of what her book means were the final word,
literary critics would be out of business and groups like ours would
have to disband because there would be nothing more to say! :-)

Carol




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 22 01:51:40 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 01:51:40 -0000
Subject: LV showing mercy to Lily?
In-Reply-To: <20040321170438.95097.qmail@web60801.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c3lgrc+ai9j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93613

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Jo Hill <jojobinks1983 at y...> 
> Jo:
> 
> I like the idea of "Uncle Voldie", Tom Riddle Snr as Lily and
Petunia's father. I can picture Harry and Petunia having a blazing
argument culminating in an Eastender's-esque "He's my brother!!!".
This might also go some way towards redeeming the Dursley's. So far
Voldemort has killed Petunia's father (maybe) and sister so no wonder
they're all a bit cagey, they may feel as though they are next in
line. I mean look how they reacted to Dudley's dementor attack.
> 
> Yes my theory is more cliched than an episode of Dawson's Creek. I
believe that Voldemort's evil is rooted firmly in bitterness at his
upbringing in an orphanage as compared to the happiness shared by his
father's "other" family. The hesitation in killing Lily was because
she is his half-sister. 


I don't think this conjecture can be effectively supported, primarily
because Tom Riddle is approximately forty years older than Lily and
Tom murdered his father when he (Tom) was seventeen. There's no time
available for Tom Sr. to have a second family. There's also the fact
that Lily's maiden name is Evans, not Riddle, and the not so minor
detail the Voldemort hated his father, whose favored offspring, if
any, Tom/LV would be bound to hate.

Carol




From gsanderson at cfl.rr.com  Mon Mar 22 01:52:36 2004
From: gsanderson at cfl.rr.com (gsanderson at cfl.rr.com)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 01:52:36 -0000
Subject: Uniting of the school by the Heir and the Slytherins in General
In-Reply-To: <c3leic+s0he@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3lgt4+9eep@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93614

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
> So when Draco and his 'hangers on' get kick out of the DA Club, a 
few
> Slytherins will stay. Why? Because they are more interested in
> learning than kissing Draco's hairy... er... better make that 
stroking
> Draco's ego.

:) :)
> 
> The school will never be 100% united, but no society ever is. Yet 
the
> four house will unite under the DA Club and Harry's guidance, and 
when
> the time comes, they will stand together.
> 
> As a side note: I wonder if Draco will try and form a Slytherin only
> DA Club after he is kicked out of the DA Club?
> 
> The New DADA Teacher-
> Aren't we out of candidates? Last year (OoP) Dumbledore couldn't 
find
> anyone, and the Ministry had to appoint someone. I seriously doubt
> that Dumbledore will take anyone simply because the Ministry
> recommends them after what happened with Umbridge. 
> 
> So who do we know who wants to be DADA teacher, who is also 
available
> and knowledgable? I think it has to be Snape in the next book with a
> new Potions teacher to replace him. That has the advantage of 
allowing
> Harry to continue potions, but oo-la-la the fit Harry is going to
> throw when he finds out Snape is the new DADA teacher. It'll be 
worth
> buying the book just to read that one passage. 
> 
> Just a few thoughts, again.
> 
> bboy_mn
I agree that the DA will play an important role.  It is exactly what 
the Sorting Hat prescribed - except the Slytherin participation.  I 
hear what you are saying about the Slytherin's, but I haven't made up 
my mind yet. 

Hmmm...if this were last book, I would probably agree with you about 
Snape being DADA teacher.  However, JKR appears to have this formula 
of choosing someone we've never heard of.  It is hard to tell.  If it 
is someone we know, I wonder if it could be someone like Bill 
Weasley.  There have been hints that we would see more of him and he 
could help guard Harry - something I think Dumbledore will be anxious 
to do.  I can't imagine that DD would believe Snape capable of truely 
guarding Harry next year.  Even though he did the right things in 
OOP, neither he nor Harry were happy about it and that wouldn't bode 
well. JKR mentioned that Harry will be spending his energy on things 
other than becoming an animagus, but I don't think we've really seen 
that yet.  I wonder if we'll see more of charms than DADA next year.  
Prof. Flitwick obviously has more to offer and none of it has been 
explored.

Also, I believe that Harry will still be in potions under Snape - due 
to his drive to be an Auror.  Reading the owls section with potions 
in OOP, I'm guessing that Snape is a better teacher than Harry 
thought he was :).  Instead of seeing Harry's face going into a Snape-
taught DADA class, I would love to see Snape's face when he realizes 
that Harry will still be with him for potions.

Kristen




From pt4ever at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 22 01:59:28 2004
From: pt4ever at yahoo.com (JoAnna)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 01:59:28 -0000
Subject: Why didn't  Lily have to die?
In-Reply-To: <c3k7gd+e0om@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3lha0+hhko@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93615

<<<Max replies:
Yes, personally I have no trouble believing that Voldemort might lie
to Harry (or stretch the truth in this case), especially if he was
trying to taunt Harry and make him feel defeated.>>>

JoAnna:

I agree - after all, Voldemort has never been considered a paragon of
truth and honesty.  It's entirely possible that he was trying to
torture Harry with guilt when he said "Your mother didn't have to
die," hoping Harry would think something along the lines of, "Oh, it's
all my fault she's dead."  




From jujupoet29 at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 22 02:00:33 2004
From: jujupoet29 at hotmail.com (sienna291973)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 02:00:33 -0000
Subject: Unlocking the Hidden Pattern/7 tasks-7 books
In-Reply-To: <c3gee0+8oqi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3lhc1+4fop@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93616

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sevenhundredandthirteen" 
<sevenhundredandthirteen at y...> wrote:

> But, Harry's scar connection with Voldemort gives him insight in 
GoF before OotP. He gets dreams from Voldemort's point of view, 
first when he kills Frank Bryce, also when he is Divination class 
dreaming about Voldemort and Wormtail. This is before OotP, so it 
doesn't fit in your parallel.

Hi Laurasia,

Your post made me realise that I had to clarify a few points about 
my theory.  I think perhaps I should have spent more time writing it 
instead of being in such a hurry to post it, because its obvious 
that I didn't explain it clearly enough.  

The pattern I'm talking about does not rest on the repetition of 
imagery or objects or people but a similar sequence of occurences.

I completely acknowledge that other patterns would fit on top of 
this one and other thematic structures would be at work.  It is by 
no means absolute, but I think it does exist underneath all of those.

If I thought my pattern was absolute then, other than the main 
characters, other characters could only turn up in certain books.  
For the sake of the progression of plot this would, of course, be 
impossible.  I am not making the suggestion that any two similar 
things in the books constitute a mirroring event.

To clarify my point - the important thing about Harry's connection 
with Voldemort in CoS and OoTP, is not that is is used (as the scar 
is used in PS; as the Scar and Dreams are used in GoF) but that it 
is used in a similar fashion and leads to a similar event - i.e. 
Harry being lured into a trap to 'save' someone he cares about.

Charlie's involvement in both PS and GoF is not important in and of 
itself, but Charlie's involvement with Dragons is.  Moreover, 
Charlie's involvement with Dragons in GoF is an exaggerated mirror 
of Charlie's involvement in PS (where he sends friends to take care 
of the Dragon for him).

The second part of this theory is that these events are not merely 
mirrored but more importantly exaggerated.  So in CoS this person is 
Ginny and in OoTP its Sirius (someone infinitely more important to 
Harry).

Myrtle appearing in Cos and in GoF would not count within this 
pattern. In CoS she is the key that enables the kids to unravel the 
whole plot.  In OoTP she simply helps Harry along (and a useful tool 
to help Harry in the Second task).  This is not an exaggerated 
mirror of the same event.
 
Another example is Buckbeak - his appearance in both GoF and OoTP is 
inconsequential. It is certainly not an exaggerated mirror of his 
appearance in PoA. So these are not included in this pattern. Does 
that make more sense?

Again, I'm open to disagreements, but I thought I'd clarify this 
because it seemed to be causing some confusion.

Sienna

*Who can't help apologising for long posts, especially when there's 
people who will definitely find them tedious* ;)







From elrond at paradise.net.nz  Mon Mar 22 01:46:48 2004
From: elrond at paradise.net.nz (Michael Chance)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 13:46:48 +1200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Gilderoy Lockhart and Percy.
References: <c3kc55+j1tg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000b01c40faf$d70774a0$b8444fcb@locxvcym>

No: HPFGUIDX 93617

Vmonte writes:

> I just reread books 1-3 and there is something very curious about
> Lockhart and Percy.  They are often lurking about, and always showing
> up at curious moments.  Percy in particular seems to show up at
> strange times throughout the books.  I have no real reason to point
> this out except that they appear to be spying for someone -- and not
> necessarily for the same person.
>
That actually reminds me of a theory someone wrote about, on a different
Harry Potter based mailing list, about Lockhart. I can remember it, mainly
because I've always quite liked Lockhart and thought this was an amusing way
of describing his behaviour.

Anyway, her suggestion went along these lines - Lockhart was one of
Voldermort's agents, and as a result he was going around memory wiping some
of the best witches & wizards. Not completely wiping of each person's
memories, but just the important parts - like how they discovered an
important potion or how they came up with a suitable way of defeating one of
Voldermort's creature..... Things along those lines, plus the occasional
complete memory wipe.....

She also mentioned that Lucius Malfory had been donating a lot of money to
St Mungos, though I have no idea myself off hand......

Michael





From kking0731 at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 22 02:52:07 2004
From: kking0731 at hotmail.com (Kathy King)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 21:52:07 -0500
Subject: Sirius/Tonks
Message-ID: <Sea2-F531ck7smmeCT700003ce1@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93618


One of the most confusing statements in Oop, for me, was when Bellatrix says 
that she was busy fighting the Animagus Black. (pg. 812) Well, Blacks 
animagus form was a big black dog and we know she was not fighting a big 
black dog. So what did she mean by animagus? This started me thinking and 
looking. What if Bella new she was not fighting the true Sirius Black but 
some animagus *form of Black?

These questions made me think of Siriuss second cousin Tonks who is capable 
of changing her appearance at will, a metamorphmagus. (pg. 52) A few of her 
statements popped out at me. When Harry asked her if you could learn to be a 
metamorphmagus she said that most wizards when they want to change their 
appearance need a wand or a potion.

We have seen that Sirius has in the past secretly changed secret keepers, 
what if Sirius and Tonks changed without anyone else being told about it. 
(history does tend to repeat itself in these books at least once) Tonks just 
had to think about what she wanted to change into to become Sirius (and like 
Tonks says to Harry, a wizard would need a wand to change) Sirius could 
have used a spell to change himself to look like Tonks.
Sirius, being a very accomplished wizard, could have very likely changed his 
appearance with a spell.

There were a few things that made me believe this to be true. One example 
is: Tonks saying (pg. 54) Nice One, Mad Eye
Sirius used this same phrase again in the death chamber room when he yells 
(pg. 803) Nice One! to Harry when Harry used the petrificus totalus on 
Dolohov. It just sounded so Tonkslike when I heard Sirius say it.
It seemed strange that when I saw the phrase Nice One (which is not that 
big of a phrase) that I immediately remembered that I heard it before and 
where I had heard it before. Some speech seems to be almost like a persons 
calling card.

The next example was: In the death chamber room when the order first 
arrives, (pg. 801) the first person to cast a spell is Tonks seeing Harry in 
danger of Malfoy. It seemed to me that the first person to jump to Harrys 
defense should have been Sirius. But, if Tonks were Sirius when they were in 
the chamber room it would make perfect sense that she was the first to cast 
a spell.
Tonks was sent to St. Mungos after the fight at the MoM, so no one would 
have yet known if there had been a secret change and Im not so sure Sirius 
(now pretending to be Tonks) would tell anyone. This would defiantly be a 
good disguise to enable him to leave Grimmald Place.

Something else that was said by Tonks at the train platform at the end of 
the book that didnt sound like happy go lucky Tonks (but rather like 
something Sirius would have said,) pg. 869 Tonks says Anyway thats not the 
pointthe point is, if we find out youve been horrible to Harry
Sounds just like Sirius when he is talking to Snape (pg. 520), Sirius says, 
Ill get to the point, thenand If I hear youre using these Occlumency 
lessons to give Harry a hard time
The two phrases here although they are not verbatim resemble each other 
closely. Thats not the point and Ill get to the point also If you are 
horrible to Harry and if you give Harry a hard time. (again it seemed odd 
to me that when I read the one phrase it immediately made me think that I 
had heard Sirius say something quite similar before).

In the most resent interview with Jkr, someone had asked if Sirius came back 
what *form would he be in? Jkr said she couldnt possibly answer that 
question for fear of incriminating herself. Incriminate: to provide evidence 
of somebodys guilt or make somebody appear guilty of a crime or mistake.

What is she guilty of?


Kathy(snow15145) -who hopes she is guilty of killing Tonks instead of 
Sirius.

_________________________________________________________________
Find a broadband plan that fits. Great local deals on high-speed Internet 
access. http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200360ave/direct/01/




From ekrbdg at msn.com  Mon Mar 22 02:27:39 2004
From: ekrbdg at msn.com (Kimberly)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 21:27:39 -0500
Subject: The charms on Harry
References: <c3lf59+of0q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <050c01c40fb5$4029e080$5be6f943@hppav>

No: HPFGUIDX 93619

(Carol)
 Yes. Dumbledore's charm protects Harry while he lives with the
Dursleys ("Lily's blood"). The charm I'm talking about (which is only
theoretical at this point) would have protected Harry through Lily's
death, deflecting the AK onto Voldemort. 

<snip>

Either that,
or Harry was born with special powers that would enable him and him
alone to stop LV. I don't think that either of these is the case.

<snip>

There may be some additional points that I'm forgetting, but basically
I believe that the self-sacrifice is not enough *in itself* to protect
Harry and that he was not born with that protection, so something else
is necessary to explain what happened.  


(Kimberly)
I absolutely see what you are saying now.    There were two charms on Harry, one placed by Lily because she knew Harry was in danger and the other placed by Dumbledore after James and Lily died.    Makes total sense.    As you said, doesn't mean it is an absolute but evidence supports it and we have nothing to disprove it.    

Kimberly, *I solemnly swear I am up to no good, but will refrain from continued questions about Lily's charm (for now, *G*)



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From ekrbdg at msn.com  Mon Mar 22 02:32:32 2004
From: ekrbdg at msn.com (Kimberly)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 21:32:32 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Gilderoy Lockhart and Percy.
References: <c3kc55+j1tg@eGroups.com> <000b01c40faf$d70774a0$b8444fcb@locxvcym>
Message-ID: <051501c40fb5$ef26a140$5be6f943@hppav>

No: HPFGUIDX 93620

(Michael)
> She also mentioned that Lucius Malfory had been donating a lot of money to
>St Mungos, though I have no idea myself off hand......



(Kimberly)
I believe it is in GoF at the Quidditch World Cup.  When they first arrive at the top box, Lucius is there and I believe it's Fudge that comments on the amount of $ Lucius has donated to St. Mungo's. (had to grab my book) Matter of fact, here's the quote GoF, Amer. Ed., page 101.

"Fudge, who wasn't listening, said, "Lucius has just given a very generous contribution to St. Mungo's Hospital for Magical Maladies and Injuries, Arthur.   He's here as my guest."


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From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Mon Mar 22 03:26:06 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 03:26:06 -0000
Subject: Vague Thoughts on Apparation - Conclusion Confusion
In-Reply-To: <405CA54D.8709.364F95@localhost>
Message-ID: <c3lmce+d1e6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93621

"Shaun Hately" <drednort at a...> wrote:
> From Americans I know, I have the impression that in the US, 
> senior high school students (maybe not all - but a lot of them) 
> tend to know if they have been accepted to a college or not 
> sometime fairly early in their final year of high school. Their 
> admissions to college are primarily based on the grades they 
> receive *before* their final year of high school. They may well 
> have to maintain the same standard to keep the place they've been 
> offered - but the hardest work of getting a place has already been 
> done.
> 
> In the UK - and it's this way in Australia as well, so I remember 
> the pressure - your final results at the end of your final year of 
> secondary schooling are the most *critical* determinant of your 
> access to higher education.
<snip> 
> Time spent teaching kids to drive would be seen as a severe waste 
> of the valuable resource of *time* that could be spent on studies 
> that matter.

Susan:
Yes, Shaun, you've accurately captured how the system works in the 
U.S.  By the last semester of one's senior year in high school, 
college-bound students typically know where they'll be going...and 
it's pretty hard to care about grades that last semester!

However--and this is the main reason I wanted to write in here--
Americans typically take their driver's ed. class **in the summer**, 
not during the school year itself, so it actually doesn't "waste 
valuable time which could be spent on studies that matter."  

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From vmonte at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 22 03:27:48 2004
From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 03:27:48 -0000
Subject: Why Harry never asks questions...
Message-ID: <c3lmfk+oku7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93622

vmonte wrote:

It really bothers me that Harry never asks questions. I realize that 
this is the way JKR keeps us from finding out information she is not 
ready to reveal, but it still bothers me.

Why don't we know who Petunia and Lily's parents are/were?  Is it 
because we have already heard of them?  

Why isn't Harry curious about his grand parents? 

Who was the other person, that along with Dumbledore, heard the 
prophecy?  Why was that person thrown out of the tavern? (Is it 
illegal to over hear a prophecy?)  

Why make such a big deal about apparating, but yet allow students to 
time travel which seems potentially more dangerous. (Why introduce 
time travel at all unless it becomes important later?)    

Why was Dumbledore against hiring a fortune teller as a professor 
before hearing the prophecy?  Is he a seer himself?  

At Sirius's house there is a book on wizard geneology. Why didn't 
Harry look through it?  

What was the spell that killed Luna's mother?  

Why was the Sorcerer's Stone/Philosopher's Stone hidden at a school?
Is Nicolas Flamel a teacher at the school?  

Is it possible to time travel way back into the past? Has anyone done 
it? Has anyone from the past come to the future?

Sorry, I'm on a roll... 
vmonte




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Mon Mar 22 03:48:14 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 03:48:14 -0000
Subject: Why didn't  Lily have to die?
In-Reply-To: <c3jnk7+79gh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3lnlu+q4uf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93623

Naama wrote:
> If Voldemort says that Lily needn't have died, it must mean that 
> had she moved aside, he would not have killed her after killing 
> Harry. If he had intended to kill her afterwards, it would be a 
> lie to say that she needn't have died, right? 

Susan:
Tee hee hee.  Assuming Voldy didn't know Snape had turned to DD, 
perhaps Voldy was going to save Lily in order to present her as 
a "reward" to Snape for services rendered.

Siriusly Snapey Susan (with tongue planted firmly in cheek)






From jenjar2001 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 22 03:54:12 2004
From: jenjar2001 at yahoo.com (jenjar2001)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 03:54:12 -0000
Subject: Harry as Gryffindor's Heir
In-Reply-To: <c3iilf+fdlu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3lo14+oiq0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93624

Berit wrote

> Quote:
> "[Sirius saying about Pettigrew:]'...ready to strike the moment he 
> could be sure of allies ... to deliver the last Potter to them'" 
(PoA 
> p. 272 UK Ed)
> 
> Why the stress on Harry being the "last" Potter? The last in the 
line 
> of... what? 

Jenjar replies:

Could this be why V said *Lily didn't have to die*?  She wasn't a 
Potter by blood so she didn't present the same threat that James and 
Harry did.  Sure makes sense to me...

This topic is being addressed in a different post but I'm not sure 
where the best place to put my response is...still figuring this all 
out and appreciative of everyone's patience...)





From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 22 05:18:06 2004
From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 05:18:06 -0000
Subject: FILK: Mineral Sequence
Message-ID: <c3lsue+lgs4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93625

Song #10 from my CoS musical, A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to 
the Chamber

Mineral Sequence (CoS, Chap. 16)

To the tune of Funeral Sequence, from Sondheim's A Funny Thing 
Happened on the Way to the Forum 

Text and a brief excerpt here (you'll have to scroll down almost to 
the bottom)

http://users.bestweb.net/~foosie/forum.htm 

NOTE: I'm using the slighter longer version from the 1996 Nathan Lane 
revival, rather than the original 1964 production

Dedicated to Catherine McK

THE SCENE: MADAM POMFREY'S infirmary. The six beings (four students, 
one ghost and one cat) who were turned to stone (stone=mineral, get 
it?) are present, attended by a worried crowd of their friends and 
loved ones. To one side, SPROUT awaits her mandrakes as they approach 
maturation.

POMFREY (spoken)
Gather around, friends of hard rock
..

DOBBY (music)
Shed the tear,
Sound alarms!
Feel the fear,
Watch for harm!

FILCH 
My cat is now concrete

RON & HARRY (looking at Hermione)
Our ally is an alloy

NEVILLE 
And Colin's a completely 
Stone boy

PERCY (looking at Penelope)
Like bronze

PEEVES (looking at Nearly-Headless Nick)
Or fumes..

ERNIE & HANNAH (looking at Justin Finch-Fletchley)
Or gypsum,

FRED
Or sapphire. . .

GEORGE:
Or Protactinium 

DOBBY
His cat is now concrete
Their ally is an alloy
No more can we suspect young Malfoy

SPROUT
Lop the leaf,
Chant the charms,
Soon relief
>From my farm!

(Exit all, except POMFREY, SPROUT, RON & HARRY ? and of course the 
statues)

POMFREY (to RON & HARRY) 
Children, on behalf of the statue, I want to thank you for a lovely
visit. I don't know about you, but I've suffered enough. If you will 
just
take your leave, I shall take the body along with its note back 
inside . . .

SPROUT
Sew the scarves,
Stitch the socks,
Trim and carve
Earmuffs block!

HARRY (spoken)
Whoa! A note? What kind of note?

POMFREY (spoken)
A note, I quote..

HARRY
Oh, a wrote note

RON: 
It must be read!

POMFREY
Read? Sir!

RON:
We want that paper!

HARRY
Madam Pomfrey, I implore you: It is not for us to let this paper 
remain. It's from the library, and the library is awaiting it. The 
library would not be happy if they had to send up an overdue notice.

POMFREY
I cannot afford to offend Ms. Pince.

HARRY
Who can?

(HARRY & RON pry the page loose from Hermione's hand and read it 
together)

HARRY & RON (music)
This page has clues, we'll wage
`Twas won with no small risk
And here's the passage Herm would have us fisk:
"The King of Serpents, known as basilisks!"

     -	CMC (I really do have a life. Really)

HARRY POTTER FILKS 
http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm 





From jenjar2001 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 22 05:53:08 2004
From: jenjar2001 at yahoo.com (jenjar2001)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 05:53:08 -0000
Subject: Sirius/Tonks
In-Reply-To: <Sea2-F531ck7smmeCT700003ce1@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <c3lv04+o5m7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93626

Kathy wrote:
> We have seen that Sirius has in the past secretly changed secret 
keepers, 
> what if Sirius and Tonks changed without anyone else being told 
about it. 
> (history does tend to repeat itself in these books at least once) 
Tonks just 
> had to think about what she wanted to change into to become Sirius 
(and like 
> Tonks says to Harry, a wizard would need a wand to change
) Sirius 
could 
> have used a spell to change himself to look like Tonks.
> Sirius, being a very accomplished wizard, could have very likely 
changed his 
> appearance with a spell.

SNIP

> In the most resent interview with Jkr, someone had asked if Sirius 
came back 
> what *form would he be in? Jkr said she couldn't possibly answer 
that 
> question for fear of incriminating herself. Incriminate: to provide 
evidence 
> of somebody's guilt or make somebody appear guilty of a crime or 
mistake.
> 
> What is she guilty of?
> 
> 
> Kathy(snow15145) -who hopes she is guilty of killing Tonks instead 
of 
> Sirius.
> 

I think you are my new hero Kathy!  Ever since Sirius *died* I've 
been desperate for any theory that might make him not *really* dead.  
This is the best one I've heard so far!  I found your arguements and 
evidence very compelling (noting it's not hard to sell me on this 
idea but really, it was good), especially JKR's answer to the 
question of Sirius coming back.  Coupled with the vagueness about how 
he *died* and the veil and everything, I find your theory completely 
plausible and hope against hope that you are right!

Jenjar - who will be desperately combing through OoP for further 
support of this theory...




From snapesmate at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 22 06:00:08 2004
From: snapesmate at hotmail.com (snapesmate)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 06:00:08 -0000
Subject: Sirius/Tonks
In-Reply-To: <Sea2-F531ck7smmeCT700003ce1@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <c3lvd8+3d0o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93627

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathy King" <kking0731 at h...> 
wrote:
> 
> <snip> 
 Tonks says to Harry, a wizard would need a wand to change
) Sirius 
could 
> have used a spell to change himself to look like Tonks.
> Sirius, being a very accomplished wizard, could have very likely 
changed his 
> appearance with a spell.
> 
> There were a few things that made me believe this to be true. One 
example 
> is: Tonks saying (pg. 54) "Nice One, Mad Eye
"
> Sirius used this same phrase again in the death chamber room when 
he yells 
> (pg. 803) "Nice One!" to Harry when Harry used the petrificus 
totalus on 
> Dolohov. It just sounded so Tonkslike when I heard Sirius say it.
> It seemed strange that when I saw the phrase "Nice One" (which is 
not that 
> big of a phrase) that I immediately remembered that I heard it 
before and 
> where I had heard it before. Some speech seems to be almost like a 
person's 
> calling card.
> 
> The next example was: In the death chamber room when the order 
first 
> arrives, (pg. 801) the first person to cast a spell is Tonks seeing 
Harry in 
> danger of Malfoy. It seemed to me that the first person to jump to 
Harry's 
> defense should have been Sirius. But, if Tonks were Sirius when 
they were in 
> the chamber room it would make perfect sense that she was the first 
to cast 
> a spell.
> Tonks was sent to St. Mungo's after the fight at the MoM, so no one 
would 
> have yet known if there had been a secret change and I'm not so 
sure Sirius 
> (now pretending to be Tonks) would tell anyone. This would 
defiantly be a 
> good disguise to enable him to leave Grimmald Place.
> 
> Something else that was said by Tonks at the train platform at the 
end of 
> the book that didn't sound like "happy go lucky" Tonks (but rather 
like 
> something Sirius would have said,) pg. 869 Tonks says "Anyway 
that's not the 
> point
the point is, if we find out you've been horrible to Harry
"
> Sounds just like Sirius when he is talking to Snape (pg. 520), 
Sirius says, 
> "I'll get to the point, then"
and "If I hear you're using these 
Occlumency 
> lessons to give Harry a hard time
"
> The two phrases here although they are not verbatim resemble each 
other 
> closely. "That's not the point" and "I'll get to the point" 
also "If you are 
> horrible to Harry" and "if you give Harry a hard time". (again it 
seemed odd 
> to me that when I read the one phrase it immediately made me think 
that I 
> had heard Sirius say something quite similar before).
> 
> In the most resent interview with Jkr, someone had asked if Sirius 
came back 
> what *form would he be in? Jkr said she couldn't possibly answer 
that 
> question for fear of incriminating herself. Incriminate: to provide 
evidence 
> of somebody's guilt or make somebody appear guilty of a crime or 
mistake.
> 
> What is she guilty of?
> 
> 
> Kathy(snow15145) -who hopes she is guilty of killing Tonks instead 
of Sirius.
> 

HHmm, I like this.  Sorry Tonks fans.  I liked her too but if I had 
to choose between her and Sirius, I'd choose Sirius.  We shall know 
if we see Tonks isn't as clumsy as she was in OotP.  That seemed to 
be one of JKR's major selling points about Tonks.  The only problem 
is that Professor Dumbledore told Harry, that Snape requested Sirius 
stay put at 12 Grimmauld Place, but Sirius refused to.  Of course, 
that doesn't mean they hadn't already switched so Sirius could get 
out for the evening or something.  I admit, I will grasp almost any 
straw if it means Harry can have Sirius back, LOL!

Lynnette, who thinks Snape IS a good guy, even if he is NOT a nice
guy!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterverseofadults





From catlady at wicca.net  Mon Mar 22 06:08:04 2004
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 06:08:04 -0000
Subject: The two unnamed Gryffindor girls
Message-ID: <c3lvs4+tckj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93628

THE JKR CHAT says:
"Adele: Who are the two "unknown Gryffindor girls" in Harry's year?
JK Rowling replies -> Oh, I've just understood what you mean. I
haven't got the notebook to hand and I can't remember! That's
terrible. I'll try and remember before the end of the chat!"

There is a photograph of that notebook page at
http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/hpforgrownups/lst?.dir=/Harry+Potter+%26+Me&.src=gr&.order=&.view=t&.done=http%3a//briefcase.yahoo.com/
but here is an easier way to click on it: http://tinyurl.com/kk8t

Helpful people transcribed it into posts (below); looking at the list
for girls whose House affiliation we don't know, I find Sally-Ann
Perks, whose name but not House was mentioned in the Sorting scene of
Book 1, and several students who don't even have first names: Moon,
??an, Rive, Rope, Runc, and Spink. 

Thanks to Muridae
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/32313

Abbott, Hannah (Hufflepuff)
Bones, Susan (Hufflepuff)
Boot, Trevor (Ravenclaw)
Brocklehurst, Mandy (Ravenclaw)
Brown, Lavender (Gryffindor)
Bulstrode, Millicent (Slytherin)
Corner, Michael (Hufflepuff)
Cornfoot, Stephen (Ravenclaw)
Crabbe, Vincent (Slytherin)
Davis, Tracey (Slytherin)
Entwhistle, Kevin (Ravenclaw)
Finch-Fletchley, Justin (Hufflepuff)
Finnigan, Seamus (Gryffindor)
Goldstein, Anthony (Hufflepuff)
Goyle, Gregory (Slytherin)
Granger, Hermione (Gryffindor)
Greengrass, Queenie???? (Slytherin) 
Hopkins, Wayne (Hufflepuff)
Jones, Megan (Hufflepuff)
Li, Su (Ravenclaw)
Longbottom, Neville (Gryffindor)
McDougal, Isabel (Ravenclaw)

Thanks to HOLLYDAZE!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/32345

Abbott, Hannah.
Bones, Susan.
Boot, Trevor. (his name seems to have been changed to Terry in the books)
Brocklehurst, Mandy.
Brown, Lavender.
Bulstrode, Millicent.
Corner, Michael.
Cornfoot, Stephen.
Crabbe, Vincent.
Davis, Tracy.
Entwhistle, Kevin.
Finch-Fletchley, Justin.
Finnigan, Seamus.
Goldstein, Anthony.
Goyle, Gregory.
Granger, Hermione
Greingrass, Queenie [Daphne Greengrass, from OoP, Charms OWL]
Hopkins, Wayne.
Jones, Megan.
Li, Su.
Longbottom, Neville.
MacDougal, Isabel (the original name appears to have been Katrina as a 
                K...A...T and R are visible with what looks very like
an "I" next, the next
                letter is hidden by JK's finger as is part of the last
letter which appears
                to  be an A) 
                (Thankyou to Muridae for working most of those out)
The rest of the list
                seems  to be something along the lines of:
Mac(Dougal, Morag)?
Mac(Millan, Ernie)? (this one could be another "Mal" but it is more
likely to
                be a "Mac" unless JK really didn't remember to change
"Isabel" to "Morag" in
                which case Morag should be Isabel and the one above is
Ernie, leaving this
                one unknown)
Mal(foy, Draco)
Moo(n)
Nott [Theodore, Slytherin, from OoP]
Park(inson)
Patel (Padma)
Patel (Parvati)
Perks (Sally-Ann)
Potter (Harry)
?ran (as far as I can see, this one is illegible due to the three
crossings out below it)
Rive(can just be seen in the 2nd top photo but is not visible on
either of the
                other two due to a crossing out below it and being cut
off in the 1st top
                photo)
Rope(something as the E joins on to another letter that is not in the
picture)
Runc (Possible Runcorn)
Smith [Zacharias Smith, Hufflepuff, from OoP]
Spink(s...it is unclear if this is the full name as the S is half of
the page)
Thom(as, Dean)
Turpi(n, Lisa)
Weasl(ey, Ronald/Ron)
Zabini, (Blaise) 




From catlady at wicca.net  Mon Mar 22 06:16:44 2004
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 06:16:44 -0000
Subject: 91615-Nickname,/Prefect/Flint/Losing/Traitor/Bertha/Animagus-Patronus/Ages/
Message-ID: <c3m0cc+ekh7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93629

Antosha signed off
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/91615 by saying:

<< who could never think of Prof. McGonagall as 'Minerva.' >>

Is it possible that her usual nickname is "Mack", or is that not used
as a nickname in Britain?

Shaun wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPfor
Grownups/message/91668 :

<< they sometimes appointed prefects who they thought would rise to
the challenge - it was, like most things at school, intended to be a
learning experience - and if they had someone who they felt had the
potential to develop into a leader if given the chance, then they
could be appointed as well. >>

That's why I expected DD to appoint Neville as prefect, and I was
surprised it was Ron.

Pippin wrote in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/91707 :

<< Usually JKR admits her Flints with cheerful chagrin. She's
acknowledged that she once thought boa constrictors were poisonous,
that ancestor/descendant was a muddle, that good ole Marcus spent an
extra year at Hogwarts. >>

Apparently recent printings of Book 1 describe Marcus Flint as a
*fifth* year student, rather than going with 'he had to repeat a year'
as the explanation for him still being at school in book 3.

Sue wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGr
ownups/message/91762 :

<< In losing Lilly and James (and Peter too, to a certain extent)
Sirius had lost his entire family. He had already lost his first
family because he did not share their beleifs and now he had lost
everyone else. >>

Except Remus.

Just Carol wrote in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/91837 :

<<  I doubt that Peter revealed his secret about the Potters in front
of Snape or any other DE (if we can count Snape as a DE when he was in
fact a spy for Dumbledore). At any rate, Snape's behavior throughout
PoA indicates that he, like Dumbledore himself, thought that Sirius
was the Secret Keeper/traitor and the murderer of twelve Muggles--a
very dangerous man from whom all of the students, and Harry in
particular, needed to be protected. >>

Like Potioncat (nice name!) in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/91865 ,
I don't understand how the Death Eaters in Azkaban could all have
known that Peter was the Secret Keeper/traitor but Snape didn't know?
Someone must have told all those Death Eaters before they were put in
Azkaban, and why would that someone have omitted telling Snape, who
was still thought to be a Death Eater?  

Sue HP Fan wrote in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/91928 :

<< M/M Weasley were both Gryffindor and their other sons had been as
well so IMO, they would have known McGonagall >>

I personally think that Arthur and Molly had been at school with
McGonagall. 

Elihu wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPfor
Grownups/message/91941 :

<< Seems like [Pettigrew] could not have convinced Bertha Jorkins to
go with him unless he had a wand and forced her to (Imperius Curse?).
She would have smelled rat (pun intended) and refused to go. >>

Ah, you've never been a middle-aged spinster with no beauty and an
unpleasant personality meeting an unpartnered man who doesn't make an
effort to avoid her.

John Bowman wrote in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/92520 :

<< JKR is referring to Hermione's patronus form. Or is she? Could she
have let slip that Hermione is also an Animagus? The question was
asked about Animagi not Patroni (presuming these are their plural
forms). Could JKR mess up like that on purpose? >>

I don't think JKR was hinting that Hermione is an Animagus. I think
she simply takes it for granted that the form of a person's Patronus
is the same form that would take as an Animagus. To me that is
illogical: she seems to be assuming that always what protects people
is themselves, not their parents nor their faith in God nor their
commitment to justice and/or the rule of law nor their luck nor their
powers of deception.

However, given an Animagus becomes the same creature as hiser
Patronus, it would be wise for anyone to learn the Patronus spell
before embarking on the difficult project of learning the Animagus
spell, because that way they would find out whether the end product is
worth the effort. That would solve my concern about what if a person's
Animagus form were some kind of fish --- if they didn't know what the
form would be until they first turned into it, their success would be
to immediately drown in air, since they hadn't known to practise
beside a pond or ocean.

Cyberflower wrote in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/92507 :

<< while Harry is grumbling to Prof. McGonagall about Umbridge, she
keeps telling him to "have a biscuit". (snip) Does anyone have any
theory on what the significance of the biscuits are or what they may
be? I'm pretty sure they're not chocolate... >>

They're Ginger Newts, which someone explained is a pun on the name of
some commonplace UK bikkie that I can't remember (Ginger Nuts?). Some
listies suggested that McGonagall is giving Harry the bikkies because
they contain a Calmness or Self-Control or Rationality Potion.

Jo Serenadust wrote in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/92585 :

<< In addition, the fact that Angelina J. has her 17th birthday in
October while she's in her 6th year, seems to be pretty persuasive
evidence that Hogwarts is consistent with the British school
system's August 31 cut-off date. Otherwise, one has to assume a cut-
off between Sept. 19 (Hermione's birthday) and mid-October, and that
simply doesn't make any sense, to me. >>

While I don't care greatly what year Hermione was born, and feel
generally willing to agree with the UK listies who insist that she is
older than Harry, I can make up explanations of how she could be
younger than Harry. For example:

Hogwarts, founded over one thousand years ago, is older than the
British school system. They may have chosen Autumn Equinox or
Michaelmas (Sept 29) as their age cut-off date and not yet gotten
around to changing the match the Muggle cut-off date. I wonder how
long it took them to change from Julian to Gregorian calendar after
the Muggles did it: "The Julian calendar was in general use in Europe
from the times of the Roman Empire until 1582, when Pope Gregory XIII
promulgated the Gregorian Calendar, which was soon adopted by most
Catholic countries. The Protestant countries followed later, and the
Eastern Orthodox ones yet later. England had Thursday 14 September
1752 follow Wednesday 2 September 1752." (quoted from Wikipedia).

Bill Mongo wrote in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/92511 :

<< Almost all of the U.K. has an August 31 cut-off. If the Hogwarts
cut-off date were different, then Muggle-born, and non-homeschooled
magical-born, students born between September 1st and the Hogwarts
cut-off date would end up with one year less of muggle schooling
than the other muggle-borns. This would be a considerable
disadvantage for muggleborn and non-home-schooled magic-born
students born between those dates. >>

Why would it be a disadvantage for them? Surely most of the wizard
folk think that any Muggle education beyond reading, 'riting,
'rithmetic, and maybe a little bit of geography is useless anyway. I
was distressed that JKR WBD chat listed only home-schooling and Muggle
schools and not wizarding 'dame schools' (small elementary schools
often held in the home of the teacher) as ways for wizarding children
to get their primary education.

Monkey asked in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/92638 :

<< what *are* Ron's dreams now? A lot has happened to him since he
looked in the mirror or Erised >>

I predict that if Ron looked in the Mirror of Erised during any part
of book 4 or 5 when violence was at a low ebb, he would see himself
passionately kissing an appreciative girl. The girl would cycle
through a change of identities from Fleur to Madam Rosmerta to the
current wizarding world superstarlet to Hermione to Fleur to ... He
would be totally embarrassed for anyone to know about this vision.




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 22 07:15:16 2004
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 07:15:16 -0000
Subject: Uniting of the school, DADA Teacher and Billy Boy.
In-Reply-To: <c3lgt4+9eep@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3m3q4+a5d3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93630

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, gsanderson at c... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
> > 
> > The New DADA Teacher-
> > Aren't we out of candidates? 
> > 
> > So who do we know who wants to be DADA teacher, who is also 
> > available and knowledgable? I think it has to be Snape in the next
> > book with a new Potions teacher to replace him. That has the 
> > advantage of allowing Harry to continue potions, but oo-la-la the 
> > fit Harry is going to throw when he finds out Snape is the new 
> > DADA teacher. 
> > 
> > Just a few thoughts, again.
> > 
> > bboy_mn

> Kristen:
>
> ...edited...
> 
> Hmmm...if this were last book, I would probably agree with you about 
> Snape being DADA teacher.  However, JKR appears to have this formula 
> of choosing someone we've never heard of.  It is hard to tell.  If
> it is someone we know, I wonder if it could be someone like Bill 
> Weasley.  There have been hints that we would see more of him and he 
> could help guard Harry - something I think Dumbledore will be 
> anxious to do.  
> 


bboy_mn:

I've no problem with Bill being the next DADA teacher, he is an expert
curse break, so one can assume safely that he is also an expert curse
maker. The man breaks curses cast in magic and in languages that
haven't existed for thousands of years, he has to be good to be able
to do that. (Always admired that ability in Bill.)

There is just one problem with that, if Bill Weasley moves that far
into the foreground, and becomes as close a friend to Harry's as I
suspect he will, then we can almost guarantee that he is one dead Weasley.

I'm not sure I really want to see a Weasley die, but sadly, people
have been predicting it for a long time. 


> Kristen continues:
>
> Also, I believe that Harry will still be in potions under Snape - 
> due to his drive to be an Auror.  Reading the owls section with 
> potions in OOP, I'm guessing that Snape is a better teacher than 
> Harry thought he was :).  Instead of seeing Harry's face going into 
> a Snape- taught DADA class, I would love to see Snape's face when he
> realizes that Harry will still be with him for potions.
> 
> Kristen

bboy_mn:
Can't really argue with you, and yes, I can almost hear Harry moaning
and groaning about having to take potions again. I suppose Dumbledore
could intervene again, but that seems like a pretty slack (almost too
easy) way of getting Harry into potions. It is certainly possible, but
I see it as easier and more believable from a plot perspective for a
new potions teach with less strict criteria to let him in.

Also, people have been predicting for a long time that Snape would
show, with no uncertainty and with no ambiguity, that he is willing to
sacrifice himself for the side of the good and for Harry. Then Harry
will know in no uncertain terms that Snape really was a good guy, and
someone to be admired. In a sense, Snape will redeem himself in
Harry's eyes. 

So, the sad question I must ask is... do you prefer to have Bill
Weasley die a heroic death or Snape?

Personally, I choose Snape. Harry and many other people would be heart
broken by Bill's death, and Harry would gain nothing but more pain and
guilt. Snape's death however could teach Harry some very deep and
important lessons.

So, the next questions is, which death has the greatest power to move
the plot and more importantly, to move Harry forward?

Of course, there can be no true answer, only opinions, but for now,
opinion are all we have.

bboy_mn








From Elvishooked at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 22 07:35:08 2004
From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 07:35:08 -0000
Subject: Is Snape a Snake?
In-Reply-To: <c3lbrh+ht5t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3m4vc+vdbu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93631

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" 
<justcarol67 at y...> wrote:

snip snip

>>>First, JKR made it pretty clear in her recent chat that Snape is 
not a vampire or associated with vampires, and the chief adherents of 
that
theory have pretty much given it up. (I could be wrong, but I don't
think that more than ten or so people on this list ever staunchly
defended the vampire!Snape idea.)<<<

Just for the fun of it - let's find out. Someone make a poll and see 
how many on the group believe(d) Snape's a Vampire or at least had an 
idea he 'could be'.





From arielock at aol.com  Mon Mar 22 05:18:47 2004
From: arielock at aol.com (arielock2001)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 05:18:47 -0000
Subject: Why didn't  Lily have to die?
In-Reply-To: <c3l6e5+5p41@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3lsvn+djge@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93632

Tip Gardner correctly stated about Voldemort's ability to 
manipulate, and thus understand others:
"One needs to have enough of a grasp of human psychology to 
know how to read someone and act accordingly and that, of 
course, returns us back to how could LV have had such a faulty 
understanding that he thought Lily would step aside and let him 
murder her baby boy?"


Arianna replies:
	I believe that Voldemort did not *ask* Lily to stand aside.  He 
Imperioed her, and she threw it off in the same way that Harry did 
in GOF when FakeMoody performed the curse on him in class. 
She may not have realized that she was doing it, and it probably 
come as a surprise to Voldemort.  

	Why didn't he just kill her...?  Well, there's the Too EWW to be 
TREWW theory, (which is really quite good and does make a lot 
of sense), but maybe it is simpler.  

	The group he created was called "The Death Eaters."  I think that 
every time they killed a wizard, they absorbed some of their 
victim's magical abilities.   This idea is validated by the echoes 
coming out of Voldemort's wand at the end of GOF. We have 
cannon evidence that magical abilities can be transferred from 
one magical person to another.  Dumbledore says many times 
that Voldy transferred some of his powers to Harry when the AK 
backfired (his parseltounge abilities, for example).   Maybe Voldy 
simply didn't want any echo of a muggle-born in his system.  
James' magical essence, that of a powerful pureblood, would be 
welcomed.  A filthy mudblood, on the other hand, well he 
probably just didn't want to dirty his wand.

	Yes, Arthur states in GOF that Death Eaters did kill muggles for 
fun, but there is no evidence that Voldy himself engaged in 
recreational muggle murder.  The murder of his father and 
grandparents was an act of personal revenge.  Also, he didn't 
actually kill muggle-born Moaning Myrtle, he had the basilisk do it 
for him.

	That might be the definition of Dark Arts: the performance of one 
of these spells takes something from its target permanently.

Arianna









From belijako at online.no  Mon Mar 22 09:30:41 2004
From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 09:30:41 -0000
Subject: Sirius/Tonks
In-Reply-To: <c3lvd8+3d0o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3mbo1+dq02@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93633

snapesmate wrote:
Sirius could have used a spell to change himself to look like Tonks.
<snip>This would definitely be a good disguise to enable him to leave 
Grimmauld place

Berit replies:

I don't quite see how it can be consistent with Sirius's personality 
to pass as Tonks and let Tonks pass as him in a potentially very 
dangerous undertaking; letting her play the high-risk part. I could 
see the point of doing it if Tonks (impersonating Sirius) stayed at 
Grimmauld place and Sirius masked as Tonks went to the MoM. But they 
both came along...

Statistically Sirius is more likely to get injured or killed since 
he's already a fugitive and a wanted man. Can you really see 
him "hiding" as Tonks and letting her take the blows meant for him? 
It would be very uncharactersitic of a man who never seems to shy 
away from danger and who claims to be willing to die for his friends. 
Switching the secret keeper job with Pettigrew is a different matter: 
Sirius thought he wouldn't be in any immediate danger since no one 
would believe he was the secret keeper anyway. Sirius was the one who 
was going to be the bait and take the blow, not Pettigrew. So how 
could he possibly put his niece in such a position? One might say a 
lot about Sirius's mental state in OotP, but I can't believe he ever 
wavered in his bravery, fierce loyalty and strong desire to always be 
in the frontline in any battle...

The similarities in speech/line of thought between Sirius and Tonks 
can also be explained by the simple fact that they are related and 
quite close family. They're made of the same "stuff" so to speak :-)

Berit
http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html




From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Mon Mar 22 09:47:54 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 22 Mar 2004 10:47:54 +0100
Subject: Why didn't  Lily have to die?
Message-ID: <20040322094754.6DF1F1FCD53@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 93634

> Arianna replies:
> 	The group he created was called "The Death Eaters."  I think that 
> every time they killed a wizard, they absorbed some of their 
> victim's magical abilities.   [...] Maybe Voldy 
> simply didn't want any echo of a muggle-born in his system. [...]
> 	Yes, Arthur states in GOF that Death Eaters did kill muggles for 
> fun [...]

Killing Muggles wouldn't be in opposition to this theory (which I'm not sure if I support, but wich makes some sense and has solid cultural background). Muggles, having no magical power, wouldn't "taint" the Wizard with their power. Their "remains" in te wand woudln't be anything more than pleasure trinket, holliday souvenir of entertaining murder raid.

Cheers, Viridis

________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!



From catherinemck at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 22 11:36:26 2004
From: catherinemck at hotmail.com (catherinemckiernan)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 11:36:26 -0000
Subject: Apparating into the Ministry...
In-Reply-To: <c35s7l+da0u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3mj3q+tnj3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93635

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" 
<justcarol67 at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kashelkar" <kashelkar at y...> 
wrote:
Loads of interesting stuff about apparition cut..
 
> > Kashelkar's reply:
> > 
> > If the DEs were hiding in the DoM for some time before HP and his 
> > gang entered MoM, what kept Voldy from going to MoM alongwith his 
> > DEs, and pick the prophecy himself, then disapparate, and leave 
the 
> > DEs to finish off the HP and gang?? If the DEs could get that far 
in 
> > the MoM without raising any alarm, then Voldy must also be able 
to do 
> > the same.
> > Also, is it not risky for the DEs to keep lurking in the DoM?? 
What 
> > if HP didn't turn up after all??  What if MoM officials and 
Aurors 
> > turned up instead??  Who'd take such high risk??  
> > 
> > Another curious question:  Why the DEs didn't even try to put the 
> > Imperious Curse on HP and his gang members (after all they have 
their 
> > backs at the DEs)??  If successful, that'll solve a hell lot of 
> > problems for the DEs.  Also, isn't it foolish on part of Lucius 
to 
> > explain the importance of the glass orb to HP??
> 

Carol replied

> They wouldn't have been sent until LV knew that Harry was on the 
way.
> There would have been little time for lurking. Besides, security was
> already lax and they somehow dispatched the guard who weighs the
> wands. There was certainly no need for LV himself to come since 
Harry
> would serve the purpose with less risk.
> 
Now it's my turn.

I agree with Carol that the DE's themselves did not enter the 
Ministry until the last moment (what on earth did they tell the 
telephone kiosk? Can you imagine the badges -  "Bellatrix
Lestrange, 
Escaped Death Eater, Burglary Mission"). Bellatrix says that LV 
didn't want to "risk" going into the MoM and being seen.
So perhaps 
the DE's were not entirely sure that it would be possible to get
as 
far as they did without raising any alarm at all. It's one thing
for 
them to risk being seen, especially if they think they can escape, 
but not LV, who is supposedly still disembodied. Also, as LV enjoys 
the psychological side of torture as much as the physical, presumably 
he rather likes the idea of Harry being his own undoing.

As for the lack of the Imperius Curse, I'd never thought of it 
before, but it does seem  a pretty obvious action for them to miss. 
They don't even need to curse each child; just Harry. As for why
they 
didn't do it; it's possible that they do not know how
powerful Harry 
is, and thought they'd fail (although why not try, there's no 
apparent suffering caused to the caster if the spell is broken). 
Alternative options, that also answer `why does Lucius explain
the 
glass orb?', are 

-	Lucius, like many villains, is afflicted by a dangerous need 
to be stylish and has not read the Evil Overlord list.
-	Lucius doesn't actually want to get the prophecy for 
Voldemort. He is probably the most intelligent of the non-Azkaban DEs 
there (competition being Nott, Avery, Crabbe, maybe Goyle) and thus 
likely to be the clearest thinker. Thus everyone follows his 
instructions, and as Lucius hsan't mentioned Imperius, they
don't try 
it. As for evidence that LM doesn't want to get the prophecy,
just 
read the scene with that thought in mind! He spends a lot of time 
making sure no other DE gets to touch it ("give it to me
Potter"), 
sends ineffective DEs in the direction the children run, and thwarts 
not only Bellatrix's Accio!, but her threat to torture Ginny, the
one 
thing that we know would definitely have worked (as Harry instantly 
prepares to hand over the prophecy when she tortures Neville). He 
could personally cast the Imperius curse on Harry and get the 
prophecy himself, but as Bellatrix implies she is the strongest DE, 
the others might be suspicious. So he keeps schtum about the 
possibility and relies on the rest not thinking of the possibility. 
Which they don't. 

Catherine McK





From kking0731 at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 22 12:03:29 2004
From: kking0731 at hotmail.com (Kathy King)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 07:03:29 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius/Tonks
Message-ID: <Sea2-F55KzGZuNY1SWo000058e0@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93636


>Berit said>
>I don't quite see how it can be consistent with Sirius's personality
>to pass as Tonks and let Tonks pass as him in a potentially very
>dangerous undertaking; letting her play the high-risk part. I could
>see the point of doing it if Tonks (impersonating Sirius) stayed at
>Grimmauld place and Sirius masked as Tonks went to the MoM. But they
>both came along...
>
>Statistically Sirius is more likely to get injured or killed since
>he's already a fugitive and a wanted man. Can you really see
>him "hiding" as Tonks and letting her take the blows meant for him?

Kathy's thoughts:

I think you may have hit on the very reason they did change. If the ministry 
officials were to have captured Tonks as Sirius, all Tonks would have to 
have done is switch back. In fact, she could be very slippery to catch being 
able to inpersonate anyone at will. (Even Fudge himself)
As far as putting Tonks in danger, I never gave it a second thought seeing 
as she is an Auror and should no just as well as Sirius how to fight. I 
wouldn't think that Sirius would feel that he was endangering her in the 
least. In fact, if this did take place it was most likely Tonks who thought 
of it to protect Sirius.


Kathy-Still trying to keep Sirius alive!

_________________________________________________________________
Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee 
Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Mar 22 12:46:01 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 12:46:01 -0000
Subject: Sirius/Tonks
In-Reply-To: <Sea2-F55KzGZuNY1SWo000058e0@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <c3mn69+bs58@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93637

 >snip<
> Kathy wrote:
> >snip<
> I think you may have hit on the very reason they did change. If the 
ministry 
> officials were to have captured Tonks as Sirius, all Tonks would 
have to 
> have done is switch back. In fact, she could be very slippery to 
catch being 
> able to inpersonate anyone at will. (Even Fudge himself)
 >snip<
> Kathy-Still trying to keep Sirius alive. 
(Keeping signature line on purpose)


Potioncat here:
Kathy, as a fellow Kathy and a fellow grasper of straws I applaud 
your theory.  But I do disagree.  If Tonks/Sirius changed back into 
Tonks, she'd go to Azkaban for aiding a known criminal.  Sirius 
hasn't been cleared by the official government.  

Also, if JKR did write it this way, most of us would have grieved for 
Sirius (readers and characters alike) and then would have to grieve 
for Tonks in the next book.
Potioncat 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from 
McAfee? 
> Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963




From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net  Mon Mar 22 13:07:01 2004
From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 7:07:01 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius/Tonks
Message-ID: <20040322130701.CFIG27801.out008.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 93638

Potioncat here:
Kathy, as a fellow Kathy and a fellow grasper of straws I applaud 
your theory.  But I do disagree.  If Tonks/Sirius changed back into 
Tonks, she'd go to Azkaban for aiding a known criminal.  Sirius 
hasn't been cleared by the official government.  


{Silverthorne}

I also have to agree. Between it being against Sirius's nature to let other folks take the fall for him, his very much 'hands on' nature, and the fallout for Tonks should she get cuaght as Sirius, no matter who caught her at it, the 'switch' would be impractical at best, down-right (and tragically) wasteful at worst.

There's also another problem that *I* uave personally with it. Animagi are rare, no matter how they're 'made'. You either have it, or you have to train REALLY hard to get the ability.

Metamorphmagi are even rarer...AND, if I remember, according to Tonks herself, you are either born with it, or not. You can't even 'learn' it like Animagi skills.

To have someone one with BOTH skills seems like overkill. In order for this to work, Sirius would, essentially, have to be the ultimate shapeshifter. Almost godlike, in fact, at least when it comes to adjusting his form. I suspect there's a very good reason why Rolwing seperated the two skills, and I have a feeling that its for the very reason that she felt that would make a wizard with both abilities just too damned powerful.

Then there's the other niggling problem--if Sirius was a metamorpmagus to begin with, why didn;t he just shapeshift himself to get out of Azkaban or even afterwards to stay free? Wouldn't that have been more practical than running around as a dog?

For that matter, if he could shapeshift that way, why didn't he shift as soon as he relaized Peter was setting him up? (oaky, I know he didn;t run after Peter's little act in the street, but still, surely he had SOME chance after that point to at least give it a try...).

It just seems rather odd for Sirius to sit on that skill for so long when it could have kept him out of trouble a long time ago, especially if you remember that Lupin admitted that he and James had no problem at all with using what they knew in school to pick on other students...

Just a few centaurs worth

Anne



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From belijako at online.no  Mon Mar 22 13:13:30 2004
From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 13:13:30 -0000
Subject: Sirius/Tonks
In-Reply-To: <Sea2-F55KzGZuNY1SWo000058e0@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <c3mopq+n0f5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93639

Kathy wrote:
 
I think you may have hit on the very reason they did change. If the 
ministry officials were to have captured Tonks as Sirius, all Tonks 
would have to have done is switch back. In fact, she could be very 
slippery to catch being able to inpersonate anyone at will.
As far as putting Tonks in danger, I never gave it a second thought 
seeing as she is an Auror and should no just as well as Sirius how to 
fight. I wouldn't think that Sirius would feel that he was 
endangering her in the least.

Berit replies:

I understand why you'd very much like Sirius to still be alive :-) 
You're assuming Tonks would not be seriously endangered posing as 
Sirius in the face of Ministry officials/aurors. Do you think an 
auror who happened to come across what looked like Sirius breaking 
into the MoM would think it would be sufficient to just zap him 
gently with a harmless disarming spell? Do you think the auror(s) 
would step back politely, giving Tonks that extra second of time to 
switch back to herself before any harm was done to her? Remember what 
the orders were concerning Sirius in PoA: Bring him in, dead or 
alive. Preferably dead... The Dementors had permission to administer 
the "kiss" the moment they caught him. No chances were taken with 
this convict. The Ministry thinks Sirius is an extremely dangerous, 
scrupulous DE. Not just with a ruthless killer's mind, but also an 
extremely powerful dark wizard. How else could he, as the only one 
ever, have successfully escaped Azkaban?

Also, I don't see Tonks (as Sirius) swithing form when fighting the 
DE's in the MoM to protect herself. The DE's would most probably be 
tempted to fight dirtier with Sirius than with an auror like Tonks. 
They would have know him from the war, and knew he had the experience 
and the skills (and the guts) to pose as a dangerous threat. Tonks is 
just an auror barely out of auror school with no fighting exprerience 
from the "old" war with Voldemort. At the MoM the one posing as Tonks 
was knocked out and disarmed long before the one posing as Sirius 
was. I'd find it a bit odd if Tonks was a better and more fierce 
fighter than Sirius was considering their background and experience.

I understand why you want Sirius to still be alive :-) But what kind 
of Sirius would we be stuck with? At best, a Sirius who sank even 
further down into depression, despair and his own misery. He would of 
course have felt deeply responsible for Tonks's death. Like he felt 
personally responsible for James and Lily's death fifteen years ago. 
And to be honest: I'd rather have a brave, dead Sirius than a live 
whimp who escaped trouble by having his niece take the blow. Snape 
would be delighted of course at such a scenario; he has already 
hinted Sirius is a coward, and then it turned out he was right :-). 
Imagine Sirius's shame...

My two knuts: Sirius is dead *because* he's not a coward. A live 
Sirius in this scenario would not be "our" Sirius as we have learned 
to know him in the HP series. Either way, it means you can't have 
your Sirius :-(  Let the poor guy rest and enjoy the memory of him :-)

Berit
http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html




From kking0731 at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 22 13:39:59 2004
From: kking0731 at hotmail.com (Kathy King)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 08:39:59 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius/Tonks
Message-ID: <Sea2-F40HsjCGvseE4D00006304@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93640

Berit:
My two knuts: Sirius is dead *because* he's not a coward. A live
Sirius in this scenario would not be "our" Sirius as we have learned
to know him in the HP series. Either way, it means you can't have
your Sirius :-(  Let the poor guy rest and enjoy the memory of him :-)


Kathy: Touch Berit! I concede at this time with no further evidence to 
offer. Only assumptions. We all know why its bad to assume.



Kathy- who bows out backwards for now!

_________________________________________________________________
Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee 
Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963




From vmonte at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 22 13:44:58 2004
From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 13:44:58 -0000
Subject: Sirius/Tonks
In-Reply-To: <c3mopq+n0f5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3mqkq+v636@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93641

vmonte wrote:

I also do not believe that Tonks and Sirius switched forms.  I do 
however believe that JKR will use Tonks to take the form of one of 
the children in a future book.  

If Tonks turns out to be a DE, she will more than likely take the 
form of one of the children to lure Harry (or another child) into 
danger.

If Tonks is on the good side, she will take the form of one of the 
children to lure Voldemort into a trap (or to lure Voldemort away 
from one of the children).  

I believe that she will die, just like her cousin Sirius.  

I also think that if she dies, while in the form of one of the 
children, the surviving characters may believe that one of the main 
three children died -- not realizing that it's Tonks.  

This could make matters worse because someone may act irrationally 
when confronted with, lets say, Ron, Hermione, or Harry's presumed 
death.  

vmonte




From quigonginger at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 22 14:55:24 2004
From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 14:55:24 -0000
Subject: Why Harry never asks questions...
In-Reply-To: <c3lmfk+oku7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3muos+7lkm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93642


> vmonte wrote:
> 
> It really bothers me that Harry never asks questions. I realize 
that 
> this is the way JKR keeps us from finding out information she is 
not 
> ready to reveal, but it still bothers me.

Ginger interjects:
It bugs me too, but I have faith that she will reveal all in her good 
time. :)  Perhaps someone should slip Harry a curiosity potion.
I don't have answers to all your questions, but I do have them for 
two of them:
 
> Why don't we know who Petunia and Lily's parents are/were?  Is it 
> because we have already heard of them?  

Ginger again: According to JKR's most recent chat, Harry's 
grandparents are dead and are not important to the story (although, 
she added, we will be learning a bit more about them)
 
> Why isn't Harry curious about his grand parents? 
 
Ginger:  Perhaps he read the chat transcript :)
 
> Why was the Sorcerer's Stone/Philosopher's Stone hidden at a school?
> Is Nicolas Flamel a teacher at the school?  

Ginger:  Nope, he lives a quiet life in Devon with his wife Pernelle. 
(SS paperback, US edition, p. 220)  Hagrid did say that Hogwarts was 
safer than Gringotts. (p. 63)

I love questions.  I love answers.  I can't wait until they meet.

Ginger, thanking vmonte for these interesting trains of thought to 
ponder as I go to sleep.  Nighty-night!




From annemehr at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 22 14:59:23 2004
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 14:59:23 -0000
Subject: <snip>/Losing/<snip>/Animagus-Patronus/<snip>
In-Reply-To: <c3m0cc+ekh7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3mv0b+i27f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93643

> Sue wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGr
> ownups/message/91762 :
> 
> << In losing Lilly and James (and Peter too, to a certain extent)
> Sirius had lost his entire family. He had already lost his first
> family because he did not share their beleifs and now he had lost
> everyone else. >>

Catlady:
> Except Remus.

Annemehr:
Perhaps Sirius felt as if he had lost Remus because he'd failed him --
he had wrongly suspected him of being the spy.

 
> John Bowman wrote in
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/92520 :
>[Re the World Book Day chat] 
> << JKR is referring to Hermione's patronus form. Or is she? Could she
> have let slip that Hermione is also an Animagus? The question was
> asked about Animagi not Patroni (presuming these are their plural
> forms). Could JKR mess up like that on purpose? >>

Catlady: 
> I don't think JKR was hinting that Hermione is an Animagus. I think
> she simply takes it for granted that the form of a person's Patronus
> is the same form that would take as an Animagus.
<snip>

Annemehr:
Actually, I think it's neither.  Since JKR's already said none of the
Trio will become animagi, I just think she used her own favorite
animal for Hermione's Patronus instead.  Since she'd discussed her
favorite animagus form at least twice before in earlier chats, and to
save time, and because she was probably trying to answer quickly, she
probably just replied that we've seen her favorite animagus form
already as Hermione's Patronus, only it didn't come out as clearly. 
After all, look how unclear I've been, and I took my time! ;-)

Catlady: 
> However, given an Animagus becomes the same creature as hiser
> Patronus, it would be wise for anyone to learn the Patronus spell
> before embarking on the difficult project of learning the Animagus
> spell, because that way they would find out whether the end product is
> worth the effort. That would solve my concern about what if a person's
> Animagus form were some kind of fish --- if they didn't know what the
> form would be until they first turned into it, their success would be
> to immediately drown in air, since they hadn't known to practise
> beside a pond or ocean.

Annemehr:
You know, I hope we do eventually find out both the animagus form and
the Patronus for a single person; personally, I don't think they will
be the same.  But don't worry about the ones who turn out to be fish
-- they don't drown immediately in air (I guess you've never seen
anyone catch a fish!), so they would have ample time to change back
and start cursing about the useless form their animagus takes!

Annemehr






From annemehr at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 22 15:23:12 2004
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 15:23:12 -0000
Subject: Apparating into the Ministry...
In-Reply-To: <c3mj3q+tnj3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3n0d0+fep7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93644

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "catherinemckiernan"
<catherinemck at h...> wrote:

Catherine McK: 
> I agree with Carol that the DE's themselves did not enter the 
> Ministry until the last moment (what on earth did they tell the 
> telephone kiosk? Can you imagine the badges -  "Bellatrix
> Lestrange, 
> Escaped Death Eater, Burglary Mission").

Annemehr:
That would have been funny, but I'm sure they just apparated into the
atrium.  I'll even go so far as to assert that Lucius Malfoy *always*
apparated into the atrium on the occaisions when he was visiting
Fudge, because he'd *never* lower himself to use the visitors'
entrance.  Anyway, we know all the DEs can apparate, because that's
what they have to do when their Dark Marks burn.


> 
> As for the lack of the Imperius Curse, I'd never thought of it 
> before, but it does seem  a pretty obvious action for them to miss. 
> They don't even need to curse each child; just Harry.

Annemehr:
You probably never thought of it before because in the back of your
mind you remembered that Harry threw off Voldemort's Imperius curse in
the graveyard, so the DEs would know they couldn't use it on him, at
least.

As for why they didn't try violence on the other kids earlier than
they did, perhaps they were under orders to try persuasion and
intimidation first, and use threats and actual violence only as less
drastic measures failed, for fear of inciting an orb-smashing incident
(which in fact did happen during the course of a violent fight).

Annemehr
who will try to make time soon to reread the DoM part from the point
of view that Malfoy did not really intend to get the prophecy for
Voldemort, as Catherine suggests







From vmonte at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 22 15:51:51 2004
From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 15:51:51 -0000
Subject: <snip>/Losing/<snip>/Animagus-Patronus/<snip>
In-Reply-To: <c3mv0b+i27f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3n22n+ui5f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93645

vmonte writes:

I think Ginny Weasley is going to become an Animagus.  Just a feeling.

vmonte




From djrfdh at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 22 12:28:38 2004
From: djrfdh at yahoo.com (djrfdh)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 12:28:38 -0000
Subject: Just a question....
Message-ID: <c3mm5m+sv4k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93646

I'm sure most of you have either read, or seen, Lord Of The 
Rings...is it just me, or has anyone else noticed certain 
similarities between that and Harry Potter? There are many things 
that are related....take the scene where the goblins surround the 
Fellowship in the Halls of Moriah...reminds me of Harry and Ron 
surrounded by the spiders! Then, of course, there's also the giant 
spider that Frodo and Sam face....(Harry and Ron again!)

I am,at present, going through both sets of books to see how many 
things I can find that are related....

Gandalf protects Frodo....Dumbledore protects Harry....they are both 
orphans and must find their own way in the world...."though they do 
not know the way"....very interesting!





From theadimail at yahoo.co.in  Mon Mar 22 13:01:02 2004
From: theadimail at yahoo.co.in (theadimail)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 13:01:02 -0000
Subject: Mrs. Figg's 'Cat among the Pixies'
In-Reply-To: <c3ignd+pn4j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3mo2e+k9hg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93647

Hi,
  All this talk about "cat among pigeons" reminds me that the most 
unexplored part of potterverse is their sayings and idioms. You can 
say they are slight twists on normal muggle idioms but they are a 
delight to read and in they are so many of them in the fifth book. 
I'd been hoping somebody would kind of group them up at a single 
place. I am always noting them down and forgetting them again.
 Like from "Gulpin'gargoyles" to Mrs.Figg's "...dragon as for an 
egg"(can't remember the start of it, sorry.)
  Anyway, one phrase which I didn't understand perfectly was 
Mundungus Fletcher's "keep your hairnet on". Can someone explain 
what that might mean?

bye
adi













































  






From marcuscason at charter.net  Mon Mar 22 15:54:13 2004
From: marcuscason at charter.net (kyntor70)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 15:54:13 -0000
Subject: Why Harry Never Asks Questions...
Message-ID: <c3n275+b3s1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93648

vmonte wrote:

"It really bothers me that Harry never asks questions. I realize that
this is the way JKR keeps us from finding out information she is not
ready to reveal, but it still bothers me."

I think Harry's childhood influences him a lot more than we give it 
credit for.  Reading the first several chapters of SS/PS, we see that 
one of Aunt Petunia's favorite sayings is "Don't ask questions."  I 
believe that this mantra (along with several others from his 
childhood) was forced upon Harry so often, that he still 
subconciously follows it.

Kyntor






From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Mon Mar 22 16:18:04 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 16:18:04 -0000
Subject: Mrs. Figg's 'Cat among the Pixies'
In-Reply-To: <c3mo2e+k9hg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3n3js+mc1d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93649

"theadimail" <theadimail at y...> wrote:
> Anyway, one phrase which I didn't understand perfectly was 
> Mundungus Fletcher's "keep your hairnet on". Can someone explain 
> what that might mean?
 

I assumed it was a variant of "Keep your hat on", as in, "Be patient!"

Siriusly Snapey Susan






From nkafkafi at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 22 16:44:52 2004
From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 16:44:52 -0000
Subject: Uncle Vernon Tiptoe Through the Tulips (was: Mrs. Figg's 'Cat among the Pixies'
In-Reply-To: <c3n3js+mc1d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3n564+icsi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93650

> "theadimail" <theadimail at y...> wrote:
> > Anyway, one phrase which I didn't understand perfectly was 
> > Mundungus Fletcher's "keep your hairnet on". Can someone explain 
> > what that might mean?
>  
> Siriusly Snapey Susan wrote:
> I assumed it was a variant of "Keep your hat on", as in, "Be 
patient!"
> 

Neri:
Since we seem to be on a roll of "I didn't get it" posts, can 
somebody explain to me what was the point in:

(SS/PS Ch. 3, p. 40 in the US paperback) 
"Uncle Vernon stayed at home again. After burning all the letters, he 
got out a hammer and nails and boarded up the cracks around the front 
and back doors so no one could go out. He hummed "Tiptoe through the 
Tulips" as he worked, and jumped at small noises."

I looked up the words of this song on the web and listened to the 
midi. Nice song, though not exactly my style in music. But what was 
the joke? Or at least, what does it say about Vernon?

Neri





From carolynwhite2 at aol.com  Mon Mar 22 16:51:36 2004
From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 16:51:36 -0000
Subject: Mrs. Figg's 'Cat among the Pixies'
In-Reply-To: <c3mo2e+k9hg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3n5io+lss9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93651

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "theadimail" <theadimail at y...> 
wrote:

>   Anyway, one phrase which I didn't understand perfectly was 
> Mundungus Fletcher's "keep your hairnet on". Can someone explain 
> what that might mean?

Carolyn:
Just a play on 'keep your hair on' I think, ie, calm down. Its a 
common UK expression of irritation at someone getting themselves 
upset. Presumably Mrs Figg is the kind of old lady who goes around in 
a hairnet, as a they often do here.

I assume the expression originates from a time when people wore wigs, 
and they slipped off or whatever if you got yourself agitated. Or 
perhaps people used to pull them off and throw them to make a point 
if they were angry ? Hm, the byways of history that Harry Potter 
takes you down!




From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Mon Mar 22 17:02:58 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 22 Mar 2004 18:02:58 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Just a question....
Message-ID: <20040322170258.E6DADA7DC7@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 93652

djrfdh:
> I'm sure most of you have either read, or seen, Lord Of The 
> Rings...is it just me, or has anyone else noticed certain 
> similarities between that and Harry Potter? There are many things 
> that are related....

Of course they are, as they are related with myriads of other fantasy and non-fantasy books, mythological stories and folktales. The great work of segregating basic themes of a thousands folk-tales was done by Vladimir Propp in 1928. For those who are to lazy to rea the Russian orignal (shame on you) or even the English translation of his "Morphology of the Folktale" (more shame on you) I present the links below: 

http://mural.uv.es/vifresal/Propp.htm
http://social.chass.ncsu.edu/wyrick/debclass/propp.htm
And especially interesting, because compares ao stages proposed by Campbell and Van Gennep:

http://faculty.gvsu.edu/websterm/Hero.htm

You can trace HP story through it quite easily - just remember the Propp's stages does not necessarily follow in very ordered manner, different combinations are allowed.

Cheers, Viridis
P.S. Don't ask me if I've read Propp - I haven't :)

________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!



From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Mon Mar 22 17:08:00 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 22 Mar 2004 18:08:00 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: <snip>/Losing/<snip>/Animagus-Patronus/<snip>
Message-ID: <20040322170800.D1703A7DAC@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 93653

> vmonte writes:
> 
> I think Ginny Weasley is going to become an Animagus.  Just a feeling.
> 


And she will turn... Surprise, surprise! Yes! Into a WEASEL!

Cheers, Viridis
P.S I'd personally prefer marten. Both for myself and for Ginny.
________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!



From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Mar 22 17:20:07 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 17:20:07 -0000
Subject: Uncle Vernon Tiptoe Through the Tulips (was: Mrs. Figg's 'Cat among the Pixies'
In-Reply-To: <c3n564+icsi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3n787+sfgn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93654

> Neri wrote:
> Since we seem to be on a roll of "I didn't get it" posts, can 
> somebody explain to me what was the point in:
> 
> (SS/PS Ch. 3, p. 40 in the US paperback) 
> "Uncle Vernon stayed at home again. After burning all the letters, 
he 
> got out a hammer and nails and boarded up the cracks around the 
front 
> and back doors so no one could go out. He hummed "Tiptoe through 
the 
> Tulips" as he worked, and jumped at small noises."
> 
> I looked up the words of this song on the web and listened to the 
> midi. Nice song, though not exactly my style in music. But what 
was 
> the joke? Or at least, what does it say about Vernon?

Potioncat:
I've wondered about that too.  There was one thing that came to my 
mind. In the late '60's or early '70's there was a comedian in the 
U.S. who played a ukulele and sang "Tiptoe Through the Tulips" in a 
very high voice.  His name was Tiny Tim and he was tall and thin and 
had long stringy hair and a hooked nose.  Not sure if he ever played 
in UK.  Anyway, that's what popped into my mind and it is so 
extremely different from any view I'd have of Vernon that I shoved 
the thought as far away as possible. (Until now.)

Oh, heck, now he sounds like a potionmaster we all know.

Potioncat who wonders if anyone out there knows a good memory charm?




From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Mon Mar 22 17:29:00 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 22 Mar 2004 18:29:00 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE:  Why Harry Never Asks Questions...
Message-ID: <20040322172901.42DA2A7DEC@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 93655

> vmonte wrote:
> 
> "It really bothers me that Harry never asks questions. I realize that
> this is the way JKR keeps us from finding out information she is not
> ready to reveal, but it still bothers me."

> Kyntor
> I think Harry's childhood influences him a lot more than we give it 
> credit for.  Reading the first several chapters of SS/PS, we see that 
> one of Aunt Petunia's favorite sayings is "Don't ask questions."  I 
> believe that this mantra (along with several others from his 
> childhood) was forced upon Harry so often, that he still 
> subconciously follows it.
 
Very good point. Harry survived his childhood with so few easily noticeable "scars" from Dursleys that we tend him to treat him as if he was absolutely "healthy" child, which he is not.

Cheers, Viridis

________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!



From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Mar 22 17:40:44 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 17:40:44 -0000
Subject: Is Snape a Snake?
In-Reply-To: <c3m4vc+vdbu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3n8es+3euv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93656

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Inge" 
<Elvishooked at h...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" 
> <justcarol67 at y...> wrote:
> 
> snip snip
> 
> >>>First, JKR made it pretty clear in her recent chat that Snape 
is  not a vampire or associated with vampires, and the chief 
adherents of  that theory have pretty much given it up. (I could be 
wrong, but I don't think that more than ten or so people on this 
list ever staunchly defended the vampire!Snape idea.)<<<
> 
> Just for the fun of it - let's find out. Someone make a poll and 
see  how many on the group believe(d) Snape's a Vampire or at 
least had an  idea he 'could be'.<<

Actually, there's been a poll up about this since 6/21/2001...It has 
always run about 70 to 80 percent red herring and the recent 
JKR talk doesn't seem to have changed that. On the other hand, 
287 people have voted yes,including me. I hold with Potioncat: 
JKR is in trying-to-keep-the-presents-secret-till- 
Christmas-morning mode, and while she won't lie, she's 
perfectly capable of letting truth stand in for honesty. <g> Sort of 
like Dumbledore in chapter 27 of OOP. Nothing he says is 
untrue, and it's all intentionally misleading.

Considering JKR's  own drawing of Snape with Bela Lugosi style 
high collar and arms folded on his chest, I'm not changing my 
vote.

Pippin




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Mon Mar 22 18:28:10 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 18:28:10 -0000
Subject: Uncle Vernon Tiptoe Through the Tulips (was: Mrs. Figg's 'Cat among the Pixies'
In-Reply-To: <c3n787+sfgn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3nb7q+ppd4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93657

Neri quoted:
> > "Uncle Vernon stayed at home again. After burning all the 
> > letters, he got out a hammer and nails and boarded up the cracks 
> > around the front and back doors so no one could go out. He 
> > hummed "Tiptoe through the Tulips" as he worked, and jumped at 
> > small noises."

Potioncat:
> In the late '60's or early '70's there was a comedian in the 
> U.S. who played a ukulele and sang "Tiptoe Through the Tulips" in a 
> very high voice.  His name was Tiny Tim and he was tall and thin 
> and had long stringy hair and a hooked nose.  

> Oh, heck, now he sounds like a potionmaster we all know.
> Potioncat who wonders if anyone out there knows a good memory charm?


Susan:
Ack!!  Potioncat's imagery, begone!!!!!  We can't have our Severus 
being mistaken for geeky Tiny Tim, with that **aweful** voice!  Ugh.

Siriusly Snapey Susan, who also wishes she could get images of "Rowan 
& Martin's Laugh-in" out of her head now. :-|







From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Mon Mar 22 19:20:26 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 19:20:26 -0000
Subject: <snip>/Losing/<snip>/Animagus-Patronus/<snip>
In-Reply-To: <20040322170800.D1703A7DAC@front.interia.pl>
Message-ID: <c3ne9q+q4dc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93658

> > vmonte writes:
> > 
> > I think Ginny Weasley is going to become an Animagus.  Just a 
feeling.
> > 
> 
> 
> And she will turn... Surprise, surprise! Yes! Into a WEASEL!
> 
> Cheers, Viridis


Has to be a cat.  She is affiliated with cats constantly in the 
books.  She sits like a cat, hisses like a cat, curls up like a cat.  
The only thing we haven't heard is if she ever purrs.

Sue (Who is acutely aware of the number of Susans in the world and 
has a best friend named Jo.)

P.S.  If anyone is going to be a weasel it will be Malfoy, we already 
know he makes a great ferret ;).




From prongs at marauders-map.net  Mon Mar 22 19:31:57 2004
From: prongs at marauders-map.net (Silver Stag)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 14:31:57 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Apparating into the Ministry...
References: <c3mj3q+tnj3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <049b01c41044$579bdef0$0201a8c0@bettysue>

No: HPFGUIDX 93659


Catherine McK
As for the lack of the Imperius Curse, I'd never thought of it
before, but it does seem  a pretty obvious action for them to miss.
Betty/SilverStag:
Incredibly late here, but Malfoy was in the graveyard with voldy and some of
the other death eaters (Crabbe, Goyle, Nott). They saw Harry fight off
Voldy's imperius curse.
Betty, off to work on her website
"Would you like us to clean out your ears for you?" inquired George, pulling
out a long and lethal-looking metal instrument from inside one of the
Zonko's
bags.
"Or any part of your body, really, we're not fussy where we stick this,"
said Fred.

Fred and George Weasley, OOTP
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "catherinemckiernan" <catherinemck at hotmail.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 6:36 AM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Apparating into the Ministry...


--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67"
<justcarol67 at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kashelkar" <kashelkar at y...>
wrote:
Loads of interesting stuff about apparition cut..

> > Kashelkar's reply:
> >
> > If the DEs were hiding in the DoM for some time before HP and his
> > gang entered MoM, what kept Voldy from going to MoM alongwith his
> > DEs, and pick the prophecy himself, then disapparate, and leave
the
> > DEs to finish off the HP and gang?? If the DEs could get that far
in
> > the MoM without raising any alarm, then Voldy must also be able
to do
> > the same.
> > Also, is it not risky for the DEs to keep lurking in the DoM??
What
> > if HP didn't turn up after all??  What if MoM officials and
Aurors
> > turned up instead??  Who'd take such high risk??
> >
> > Another curious question:  Why the DEs didn't even try to put the
> > Imperious Curse on HP and his gang members (after all they have
their
> > backs at the DEs)??  If successful, that'll solve a hell lot of
> > problems for the DEs.  Also, isn't it foolish on part of Lucius
to
> > explain the importance of the glass orb to HP??
>

Carol replied.
> They wouldn't have been sent until LV knew that Harry was on the
way.
> There would have been little time for lurking. Besides, security was
> already lax and they somehow dispatched the guard who weighs the
> wands. There was certainly no need for LV himself to come since
Harry
> would serve the purpose with less risk.
>
Now it's my turn.

I agree with Carol that the DE's themselves did not enter the
Ministry until the last moment (what on earth did they tell the
telephone kiosk? Can you imagine the badges -  "Bellatrix
Lestrange,
Escaped Death Eater, Burglary Mission"). Bellatrix says that LV
didn't want to "risk" going into the MoM and being seen.
So perhaps
the DE's were not entirely sure that it would be possible to get
as
far as they did without raising any alarm at all. It's one thing
for
them to risk being seen, especially if they think they can escape,
but not LV, who is supposedly still disembodied. Also, as LV enjoys
the psychological side of torture as much as the physical, presumably
he rather likes the idea of Harry being his own undoing.

As for the lack of the Imperius Curse, I'd never thought of it
before, but it does seem  a pretty obvious action for them to miss.
They don't even need to curse each child; just Harry. As for why
they
didn't do it; it's possible that they do not know how
powerful Harry
is, and thought they'd fail (although why not try, there's no
apparent suffering caused to the caster if the spell is broken).
Alternative options, that also answer `why does Lucius explain
the
glass orb?', are

- Lucius, like many villains, is afflicted by a dangerous need
to be stylish and has not read the Evil Overlord list.
- Lucius doesn't actually want to get the prophecy for
Voldemort. He is probably the most intelligent of the non-Azkaban DEs
there (competition being Nott, Avery, Crabbe, maybe Goyle) and thus
likely to be the clearest thinker. Thus everyone follows his
instructions, and as Lucius hsan't mentioned Imperius, they
don't try
it. As for evidence that LM doesn't want to get the prophecy,
just
read the scene with that thought in mind! He spends a lot of time
making sure no other DE gets to touch it ("give it to me
Potter"),
sends ineffective DEs in the direction the children run, and thwarts
not only Bellatrix's Accio!, but her threat to torture Ginny, the
one
thing that we know would definitely have worked (as Harry instantly
prepares to hand over the prophecy when she tortures Neville). He
could personally cast the Imperius curse on Harry and get the
prophecy himself, but as Bellatrix implies she is the strongest DE,
the others might be suspicious. So he keeps schtum about the
possibility and relies on the rest not thinking of the possibility.
Which they don't.

Catherine McK




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From AllieS426 at aol.com  Mon Mar 22 20:12:16 2004
From: AllieS426 at aol.com (allies426)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 20:12:16 -0000
Subject: Just a question....
In-Reply-To: <c3mm5m+sv4k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3nhb0+qhi9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93660

I had mentioned this discussion to my sister before we saw one of 
the Lord of the Rings movies.  She had never read the Rings books, 
and I was telling her about the Wormtail/Wormtongue comparison, and 
she was shocked when we finally met Wormtongue.  "What, while she 
was writing the books, she said, 'I think I will call him... Worm-
tail.' "

:)  Just another similarity.

Allie


--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "djrfdh" <djrfdh at y...> wrote:
> I'm sure most of you have either read, or seen, Lord Of The 
> Rings...is it just me, or has anyone else noticed certain 
> similarities between that and Harry Potter? There are many things 
> that are related....take the scene where the goblins surround the 
> Fellowship in the Halls of Moriah...reminds me of Harry and Ron 
> surrounded by the spiders! Then, of course, there's also the giant 
> spider that Frodo and Sam face....(Harry and Ron again!)
> 
> I am,at present, going through both sets of books to see how many 
> things I can find that are related....
> 
> Gandalf protects Frodo....Dumbledore protects Harry....they are 
both 
> orphans and must find their own way in the world...."though they 
do 
> not know the way"....very interesting!




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Mar 22 20:20:03 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 20:20:03 -0000
Subject: Uncle Vernon Tiptoe Through the Tulips (was: Mrs. Figg's 'Cat among the Pixi
In-Reply-To: <c3n787+sfgn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3nhpj+uv1b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93661

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" 
<willsonkmom at m...> wrote:
> > Neri wrote:
> > Since we seem to be on a roll of "I didn't get it" posts, can 
> > somebody explain to me what was the point in:
> > 
> > (SS/PS Ch. 3, p. 40 in the US paperback) 
> > "Uncle Vernon stayed at home again. After burning all the 
letters, 
> he  got out a hammer and nails and boarded up the cracks 
around the  front and back doors so no one could go out. He 
hummed "Tiptoe through  the  Tulips" as he worked, and 
jumped at small noises."
> > 
> > I looked up the words of this song on the web and listened to 
the  midi. Nice song, though not exactly my style in music. But 
what  was  the joke? Or at least, what does it say about Vernon?
> 
> Potioncat:
> I've wondered about that too.  There was one thing that came to 
my  mind. In the late '60's or early '70's there was a comedian in 
the  U.S. who played a ukulele and sang "Tiptoe Through the 
Tulips" in a  very high voice.  His name was Tiny Tim  <snip 
comparison of Tim to a certain Hogwarts professor>>

Tim's schtick was being a harmless weirdo: flowerchild looks, 
without the sex drugs and rock'n'roll. (His marriage on the 
Johnny Carson show drew 40 million viewers.) The joke is that 
Vernon, in his attempts to defend his household from 
weirdness, is getting pretty weird himself.

Pippin
dating herself




From dk59us at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 22 20:22:01 2004
From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 20:22:01 -0000
Subject: Hogwarts Express vulnerable?
Message-ID: <c3nht9+li63@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93662

I know many people expect a climactic battle at Hogwarts in Book
Seven, and it certainly seems appropriate for the series to end in
that way.

But wouldn't the Hogwarts Express on September 1 be a more effective
way for LV to attack the school?  As far as we know, _all_ students
normally use the Express to get to school (barring the occasional
entrance via Ford Anglia or the Knight Bus), apparently even those who
must go out of their way (I know, only by muggle standards) to go to
London rather than directly to northern Scotland.  Most years we
(through Harry) haven't noticed any teachers on the train, have we? 
(Lupin's the exception)  We've heard about the lady who pushes the
sweets trolley and the engine driver...any other adults?

I assume that there are various charms and protective spells on the
train and Platform 9 3/4.   But how powerful are they?  And it's quite
probable Order members will be escorting Harry there _if_ he goes by
train in Years 6 and 7.  But we know that under the right
circumstances, the train can be stopped en route (Dementors searching
for Sirius Black).  Presumably there was an arrangement between Fudge
and Dumbledore to allow this, but Dumbledore must have believed that a
security breach was possible or he would never have let it happen.  So
if he was worried that Black could have gotten aboard, then it doesn't
seem too far fetched to assume that various Death Eaters (we don't
know who all of them are, do we?) could infiltrate the Platform to
create mayhem...possibly abetted by their like-minded offspring.

Hasn't JKR said that muggles will begin to notice strange things going
on?  Perhaps an attack that makes them aware of Platform 9 3/4 will be
one of those things.  If LV has the opportunity to decimate the forces
opposing him, he certainly wouldn't mind some muggle casualties in the
bargain.  In fact, that might make it all the more attractive to him.

The more I think about this, the more it gives me the creeps (for one
thing, I'm a train lover).   But if LV is as evil as we are to believe
he is (and not just a Bondian diabolical fool), I would certainly not
put it past him.

Eustace_Scrubb




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 22 20:24:27 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 20:24:27 -0000
Subject: Is Dumbledore a vampire?
In-Reply-To: <20040321074634.55903.qmail@web61110.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c3ni1r+rs83@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93663

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Elihu Falk <falkelihu at y...> wrote:
> 
> philospeed wrote:
> 
> << <snip> We rarely see Dumbledore outside of the Hogwarts
environment; he's usually in his office, or in the Great Hall at
meals.  In OOtP, he shows up (infrequently) at Grimmauld Place, always
after dark.  Can anyone cite a case of D'dore being out in daylight? 
Just a thought.>>
> 
> Elihu's answer:
  
> 
> I believe that the Quiddich field is outdoors, and that all Quiddich
games take place during the day. Dumbledore showed up at Gryffindor
vs. Hufflepuff in SS/PS.


Also DD is a judge in the Triwizard Tournament. IIRC, both the first
and second tasks occur in the daytime. The second task occurs first
thing in the morning. Dobby wakes the sleeping Harry and tells him to
hurry down to the lake to save his Wheezy. DD is definitely present as
he speaks to the merpeople and confers with the other judges about the
scores.

Carol





From swaine.t at xtra.co.nz  Mon Mar 22 20:36:56 2004
From: swaine.t at xtra.co.nz (Tanya Swaine)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 08:36:56 +1200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Snape a Snake?
In-Reply-To: <c3n8es+3euv@eGroups.com>
References: <c3m4vc+vdbu@eGroups.com>
 <c3n8es+3euv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20040323083246.0290d6d0@pop3.xtra.co.nz>

No: HPFGUIDX 93664

Hmmmm, I'm still fence sitting, but it would be very easy to be selective 
with information.
But Snape had to have a certain value to LV, Malfoy had wealth and 
influence.  That could
just be as simple as an extreme talent for potions.  But anyway, do you 
know of a link to
that image?  Could email me direct.

Tanya


At 05:40 23/03/2004, you wrote:

>Considering JKR's  own drawing of Snape with Bela Lugosi style
>high collar and arms folded on his chest, I'm not changing my
>vote.
>
>Pippin



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From AllieS426 at aol.com  Mon Mar 22 20:35:54 2004
From: AllieS426 at aol.com (allies426)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 20:35:54 -0000
Subject: Sirius/Tonks
In-Reply-To: <Sea2-F531ck7smmeCT700003ce1@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <c3nina+9r8e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93665

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathy King" <kking0731 at h...> 
wrote:
> 
> One of the most confusing statements in Oop, for me, was when 
Bellatrix says that she was busy fighting the Animagus Black. (pg. 
812) Well, Black's animagus form was a big black dog and we know she 
was not fighting a big  black dog. So what did she mean by animagus? 
>
>

I took that to mean, "I was busy fighting Black, who is an 
Animagus."  Not that being an animagus would make him a better 
fighter, but just as a description of him.  It would have been like 
saying, "I was fighting the child Harry Potter."

I do like the theory though, although I'm pretty sure JKR has said 
characters don't come back once they're dead.

Allie




From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Mon Mar 22 20:50:14 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (Barry Arrowsmith)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 20:50:14 +0000
Subject: Horse Feathers
Message-ID: <84A746DB-7C42-11D8-A72A-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93666

We are told that Fawkes has given just two feathers.
Not told where or when mind, that would be telling us too much.

Olivander ends up with both.
He incorporates them into two wands.
Voldy has one, Harry gets the other.
Sheer chance of course.
And if you believe that, you'll believe anything.

It stretches credulity just that little bit too far to accept that it's 
all a coincidence.

It's maybe significant that Ollivander tells Harry that the counterpart 
of his wand was bought by He Who Must Not Be Named; not Tom Riddle - 
Voldemort. Other posters have wondered about that, generally to puzzle 
out how  Ollivander knows that Tom Riddle became Voldy. So far as I 
know no-one has considered the possibility that *the* wand might not  
have been the first wand that he's owned. Pity that there's no evidence 
one way  or  the other, it might make the puzzle a little easier.

Even if they were forged years  apart, it still doesn't feel 
comfortable. The fact that this 'coincidence' develops into a very 
convenient plot device three books later is no reason to accept it at 
face value.

The odds of the coincidence that we are presented with in PS/SS are 
enormous, almost incalculable, even given that Harry has been at the 
receiving end of one of the wands before. To think that Voldys attack 
would influence Harry's choice ten years later is to argue that wands 
can impart 'personality' to persons other than their users. I suppose 
that some may say that it's the Voldy part of Harry that is influenced. 
To do so is to presume that  Harry is more Voldy than Harry - now 
there's a pleasant thought!

Yeah, I know, Kneasy is on the conspiracy  trail again. What's new? But 
if the wands were made about the same time, from feathers given to 
Ollivander at the same time, then we would be justified in getting 
sniffy about Dumbledore - again. And if they were handed over years 
apart, what did DD know or suspect? Did  he know what wand Voldy was 
using and ask Ollivander to prepare one for Voldys!Bane with the same 
magical core? Just in case?

Time and again it seems that DD knows too much, that he's able to 
anticipate events, take corrective measures.
Is  this  another example?

Kneasy




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Mar 22 20:55:05 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 20:55:05 -0000
Subject: Is Snape a Snake?
In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20040323083246.0290d6d0@pop3.xtra.co.nz>
Message-ID: <c3njr9+r9mc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93667

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Tanya Swaine 
<swaine.t at x> wrote:
>> Hmmmm, I'm still fence sitting, but it would be very easy to be 
selective  with information.
 But Snape had to have a certain value to LV, Malfoy had wealth 
and influence.  That could just be as simple as an extreme talent 
for potions.  But anyway, do you know of a link to that image?  <<

It's in the photos section of our very own group:

http://tinyurl.com/2carb

Pippin




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 22 20:56:40 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 20:56:40 -0000
Subject: Harry leaving Privet Drive
In-Reply-To: <c3l175+cqt8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3nju8+ggke@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93668

Geoff wrote:
>>Harry presumably never knew about Godric's Hollow until he was 11. 
His movements have been (and are very often during holidays) dictated 
by the Dursleys; during term time, I don't feel that the Hogwarts 
staff would want him galloping off into the outback to look at the 
remains of his parents' house.
 
You may say, well what about when he was at the Burrow? well, he was 
busy enjoying his time with the family there and the thought may not 
have crossed his mind; there again, what would Molly's reaction be to 
Harry wanting to go off on a search like this? On his visits to the 
Burrow, there are usually factors limiting his movements away from 
the others - certainly Sirius Black (apparently after him) in POA and 
the post-World Cup problems in GOF.
 
I just do not think that the opportunity has arisen for him to make 
this "pilgrimage".<<
 
Kneasy wrote:
Maybe. He was 11 when he was told the truth, or part of it anyway.
He's now 16 and not once has he asked questions or expressed any
desire to know more about the GH  incident since the first
revelations, though he obviously feels strongly about it, as evidenced
by his initial reaction to Sirius in the Shrieking Shack. IMO this is
partly because everyone else seems to treat it as a taboo subject, but
he must have loads of questions and no-one to ask.
 
No, the Dursleys wouldn't take him there, Molly might, depends how 
he broached the subject. But I was thinking of all those Christmas
holidays spent moping around the school as a suitable time. I bet
Hagrid would take him with a bit of persuasion.

Carol:
Since Harry could hardly stand to look at the Wizard photograph of
doomed Order members that Mad Eye showed him at Grimmauld Place in
OoP, I don't think he *wants* to see Godric's Hollow or what remains
of it. The thought of his parents' murder is just too painful, at
least from what we've seen so far. Maybe he'll change his mind in
later books, or DD will think it essential for him to see the place
for some reason, but I can't think how it could be helpful.

Just my opinion.

Carol




From dk59us at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 22 21:17:16 2004
From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 21:17:16 -0000
Subject: Horse Feathers
In-Reply-To: <84A746DB-7C42-11D8-A72A-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com>
Message-ID: <c3nl4s+aopq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93669

Kneasy posted to the group with a conspiratorial grin:

We are told that Fawkes has given just two feathers.
Not told where or when mind, that would be telling us too much.

Olivander ends up with both. 
He incorporates them into two wands.
Voldy has one, Harry gets the other.
Sheer chance of course.
And if you believe that, you'll believe anything.
<snip>
But if the wands were made about the same time, from feathers given
to 
Ollivander at the same time, then we would be justified in getting 
sniffy about Dumbledore - again. And if they were handed over years 
apart, what did DD know or suspect? Did  he know what wand Voldy was 
using and ask Ollivander to prepare one for Voldys!Bane with the same 
magical core? Just in case?

Eustace_Scrubb:
Help! Help! I'm being repressed! Oh, dead giveaway! Did you hear that?
That's what I've been on about!

Seriously though in message 93421, I wondered about this very
question.  But I'm not sure we even know enough to know _how_ big a
coincidence it is.  (See also my followup essage 93469)  How many
phoenixes are there?  Who decides they should "give" a feather?  How
long has Dumbledore been Fawkes' human?  Maybe Fawkes gave one feather
to Godric Gryffindor and the other to Salazar Slytherin.  Ollivander's
has been in business since 382 BC, after all.

Speculation is definitely warranted...maybe even conspiracy theories.

Eustace_Scrubb




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 22 21:28:37 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 21:28:37 -0000
Subject: Underage Magic during war & at the MoM
In-Reply-To: <c3lc4g+hrnm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3nlq5+qjlo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93670

"Arya" wrote:
  
In fact, I go back to support my belief that they're not monitored
at all while they are supposedly in school because in GoF, if Harry's
use of the Disarming Charm, Summoning Charm and any other spells he
cast while escaping from the graveyard set off an UAM alarm then
Mafalda Hopkirk could have helped to support Harry's story of Volde's
return. ("Yes, Minister, he cast a Disarming Charm, an Impediment Jinx
and then a Summoning Charm in a cemetary in the middle of Little
Hangleton.") Oh, and in PoA, any spells cast while the kids were in
the Shreiking Shack would have set off the UAM detector--they were in
Hogsmeade, not Hogwarts at that time.  
 
bboy_mn responded:
 
Very much in agreement with you, so no arguement here, but I do want
to expand on a few points. First, by all indications, and by the
Ministy's own admission, Privet Drive is being monitored very closely.
I think the original aim of that monitoring was the idea that if any
magic did occur there, it probably represented an attack against
Harry, and that would mean Voldemort and/or Death Eater activity. 
 
So, while I don't want to argue the details of Privet Drive
monitoring, I do want to emphasis that it is there and to a far
greater degree than say Diagon Alley, the Ministry of Magic, or the
Burrow. Those places, as well as others, are flooded with magic and
would be very hard to monitor. 
 
The second point is that underage magic IN the Magic World is probably
a petty misdemeanor and happens all the time. As long as the parents
are monitoring it and keeping a lid on it, and it doesn't become a
public nuisance, then the Ministry probably doesn't get too upset.
 
However, magic in the muggle world is something of major concern, and
could very well create serious problems that would require significant
Ministry resources to fix. In that case, underage magic would be taken
much more seriously.
 
So, I don't think the level to which Privet Drive is monitored
represents the lever to which the wizard world or the world at large
in monitored. 
 
Also, I don't think underage magic in secure magic space is take as
seriously as magic in the muggle world.


Carol:
I agree, more or less, but would like to add that IMO it's the place
that's monitored, not the person, and that the MoM doesn't necessarily
know who performed the magic: Note: "a hover charm *was performed*" in
CoS. They don't know for sure who performed the charm but they assume
that it was Harry because he's the only magical person in that
neighborhood whose existence they're aware of. (They don't even know
about the Squib neighbor, Mrs. Figg, and certainly don't know about
Mark Evans if Mark is indeed magical.) The Patronus charm is also
(correctly) assumed to be Harry, only this time they don't bother to
use the passive voice because they're so eager to get Harry expelled,
but still, I'm pretty sure it's an assumption based on their awareness
(or presumption) that no one else in the neighborhood could have cast
the spell.

Probably other half-bloods and Muggle-borns are monitored almost as
closely as Harry (to prevent Muggles other than their parents from
seeing the magic), but places like Diagon Alley and Hogsmeade wouldn't
be monitored because there would be no way to distinguish the
continual practice of magic by adults in those places from that
performed by kids. That would explain why the magic in the Shrieking
Shack wasn't detected. If I'm right, the MoM, if Hogsmeade is on its
radar at all, wouldn't have been able to distinguish HRH's spells from
Lupin's, Sirius's, and Snape's. In other words, they wouldn't have
known that the magic was being performed by underage wizards. (And
when Fudge finds out about the Stunning spells later, Snape saves
their necks by saying that they were under a Confundus charm. Just had
to throw that in.)

Carol




From fakeplastikcynic at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 22 21:30:47 2004
From: fakeplastikcynic at hotmail.com (Lady Martha)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 21:30:47 -0000
Subject: Just a question....
In-Reply-To: <c3mm5m+sv4k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3nlu7+q8o8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93671

djrfdh:

> I'm sure most of you have either read, or seen, Lord Of The 
> Rings...is it just me, or has anyone else noticed certain 
> similarities between that and Harry Potter? 

Mugglenet.com has a list of similarities - not all the similarities, 
I'm sure there are plenty more - just thought I'd let you know. :)

http://www.mugglenet.com/hpvslotr.shtml

Cheers,

Martha




From jenjar2001 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 22 21:46:09 2004
From: jenjar2001 at yahoo.com (jenjar2001)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 21:46:09 -0000
Subject: Underage Magic during war & at the MoM
In-Reply-To: <c3nlq5+qjlo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3nmr1+amvp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93672

> 
> Carol:
> (They don't even know
> about the Squib neighbor, Mrs. Figg, and certainly don't know about
> Mark Evans if Mark is indeed magical.)

Jenjar:

Forgive my ignorance but...who is Mark Evans? 




From td1908 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 22 14:41:53 2004
From: td1908 at yahoo.com (Traci)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 14:41:53 -0000
Subject: Why Harry never asks questions...
In-Reply-To: <c3lmfk+oku7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3mtvh+10lj5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93673

vmonte wrote:
 
> It really bothers me that Harry never asks questions. I realize
> that this is the way JKR keeps us from finding out information she is 
> not ready to reveal, but it still bothers me.

Traci:

Harry has been forbidden for years to ask questions by the 
Dursleys.  He's probably curious, but they have drilled into his head 
to keep quiet and not ask questions for so long, I'm sure he just 
goes with it.  Even when Petunia slipped up in OotP and revealed that 
she knew a little more about the wizarding world than she had been 
letting on, she refused to follow up with any of the questions Harry 
asked her then.

vmonte:

> Who was the other person, that along with Dumbledore, heard the 
> prophecy?  Why was that person thrown out of the tavern? (Is it 
> illegal to over hear a prophecy?)  

Traci:

I don't think it's illegal to overhear a prophecy, I just got the 
impression that the person that was listening to DD and Trewlaney in 
the hoghead was someone that wasn't welcomed in that pub at the 
time.  Similar to how Mundungus isn't welcomed there now.

vmonte:

> Why make such a big deal about apparating, but yet allow students 
> to time travel which seems potentially more dangerous. (Why introduce 
> time travel at all unless it becomes important later?)    

Traci:

They don't allow children to time travel.  They don't really allow 
anyone to time travel, but Hermione got special permission because 
she was a model student and they trusted her not to use it for 
anything except her lessons.  She actually kept her promise until DD 
encouraged her to break it to save Sirius and Buckbeak. 

vmonte:

> Why was Dumbledore against hiring a fortune teller as a professor 
> before hearing the prophecy?  Is he a seer himself?  

Traci:

I would think the DD is not a seer.  He didn't want to hire a 
fortune teller because he was skeptical about the subject.  Why would 
he be skeptical if he was a seer?  Anyway, he thought Trelawney was 
an "old fraud" as well, until she gave the prophecy about Harry and 
Voldemort.

vmonte:
 
> Why was the Sorcerer's Stone/Philosopher's Stone hidden at a school?
> Is Nicolas Flamel a teacher at the school?  

Traci:

The PS/SS was at the school because it was under the watchful eye 
of DD, not because Nicholas Flamel was a teacher.  Remember, the trio 
had a hard time figuring out who he was.







From tipgardner at netscape.net  Mon Mar 22 22:05:21 2004
From: tipgardner at netscape.net (tipgardner)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 22:05:21 -0000
Subject: Underage Magic during war & at the MoM
In-Reply-To: <c3nmr1+amvp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3nnv1+c9as@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93674

"jenjar2001" wrote:
 
> Jenjar:
> 
> Forgive my ignorance but...who is Mark Evans?

Mark Evans lives in the Dursley's neighborhood (I believe Dudley's 
gang is beating him up) and he is mentioned at the beginning of OotP.

Hope that helps,

Tip

Check out my journal:  http://www.livejournal.com/users/tipgardner/
Check out my fan fiction:  http://www.schnoogle.com




From LadySawall at aol.com  Mon Mar 22 19:02:25 2004
From: LadySawall at aol.com (Jo Ann)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 19:02:25 -0000
Subject: Just a question....
In-Reply-To: <c3mm5m+sv4k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3nd81+62a9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93675

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "djrfdh" <djrfdh at y...> wrote:

> I am,at present, going through both sets of books to see how many 
> things I can find that are related....
> 
> Gandalf protects Frodo....Dumbledore protects Harry....they are 
> both orphans and must find their own way in the world...."though they 
> do not know the way"....very interesting!

Hullo, newbie here...I've been lurking for a while and I had thought 
of bringing this up myself, but I'm glad someone else did first.  :)  

The specific HP parallel with LotR which caught my attention was the 
Wormtail situation: Harry regrets letting him get away, and 
Dumbledore tells him that he may one day be glad that he did, because 
Wormtail now owes Harry a life debt which could have some important 
part to play later on.  Similarly (---LotR spoilers follow,---) 
Gandalf told Frodo not to be too hasty in wishing that Bilbo had 
killed Gollum when he had the chance, because not even the wise could 
see all ends; he felt Gollum still had some part to play--Bilbo's 
pity could rule the fate of many.

In LotR, Frodo fails--he's overcome with lust for the Ring at the 
last possible moment, and only Gollum's attack brings about its 
destruction.  If the parallel continues to its logical conclusion, we 
may find Wormtail inadvertantly making it possible for Harry to 
defeat Voldemort.

Then again, JKR may decide to turn the whole thing upside down and 
shock us Tolkienophiles with an entirely different play on the 
idea.  ;)

Having lots of fun watching y'all spin theories here...  :)

J. Spencer





From lmthib at earthlink.net  Mon Mar 22 15:54:22 2004
From: lmthib at earthlink.net (Lynette)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 10:54:22 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
Subject: Little voice in HP's head
Message-ID: <22532347.1079970862303.JavaMail.root@beaker.psp.pas.earthlink.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 93676

Jenjar wrote:

>It really seems the voice was trying to help him.  I can't see V 
>wanting Harry to bring friends with him, just makes it harder for V 
>and co to catch him.  

Lynette replies:

I think it is the voice of doubt that most of us have.  A voice that sometimes helps and others hurts us by stopping the better side of us.

Lynette

Best wishes,

Lynette
Landover, MD
Zone 7





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 22 22:24:55 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 22:24:55 -0000
Subject: Sirius/Tonks
In-Reply-To: <Sea2-F531ck7smmeCT700003ce1@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <c3np3n+qv16@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93677

Kathy Kingwrote:
> 
> One of the most confusing statements in Oop, for me, was when
Bellatrix says 
> that she was busy fighting the Animagus Black. (pg. 812) Well, Black's 
> animagus form was a big black dog and we know she was not fighting a
big 
> black dog. So what did she mean by animagus? This started me
thinking and looking. What if Bella new she was not fighting the true
Sirius Black but some animagus *form of Black?

Carol:
An animagus (= animal-magus) is so-called because he (or she) can turn
into a particular animal (just one animal). If Sirius were in his
animagus form, he'd be a black dog. He has no other "animagus form."
He can't turn into another person as a result of this ability, which
required at least three years to learn, and Tonks indicates elsewhere
tha using spells or potions to transorm your appearance (she doesn't
say "to turn into another person" is a complicated process, which
there would be no time (and IMO, no reason) to attempt. We don't even
know that Tonks herself can change into the form of another real and
living person (note that all of her disguises so far have been female
and they haven't been other characters). Also, I can't imagine why she
would want to exchange bodies and apparent identities with a man who's
wanted for murder. And the zeal with which Sirius fights Bellatrix
suggests (to me) a long-standing hatred which Tonks (though Bellatrix
is her aunt) couldn't possibly share, having been only a child and not
a member of the Order when the Longbottoms were tortured.

Kathy: 
> These questions made me think of Sirius's second cousin Tonks who is
capable of changing her appearance at will, a metamorphmagus. (pg. 52)

Carol:
For the record, she's his first cousin once removed. His own child, if
he had one, would be Tonks' second cousin. (Not that it makes any
difference to your argument, but I like to keep relationships
straight. Rather like Harry with quidditch terms. :-) )

I don't think a few similar common expressions are sufficient evidence
for a theory like this one. (Maybe there's some significance to Ron's
sudden tendency to call Harry "Mate" in OoP, but I'm not going to base
a theory on it.)

I think that Tonks will become more important in future books and that
her skills as a metamorphmagus will be put to more interesting use
than they were in OoP, where they were merely introduced, but that
can't happen if she's the one who fell through the veil. I also don't
think that JKR would cry over the death of such an insignificant
character, and it would be pretty shabby of her to make Harry feel so
much pain for nothing. Also, the fact that Sirius didn't appear in the
mirror at the end of OoP indicates that he's truly and "properly" dead.

In short, I think it's likely that Harry will encounter a portrait of
the animagus as a young man and somehow communicate with that to learn
more about the Prank, etc., but I don't think we'll find that Sirius
is still alive.

Carol, who doesn't want any more polyjuice potions or mistaken
identities, much less "dead" people brought back to life




From gbannister10 at aol.com  Mon Mar 22 22:28:52 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 22:28:52 -0000
Subject: Mrs. Figg's 'Cat among the Pixies'
In-Reply-To: <c3mo2e+k9hg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3npb4+7j7g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93678

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "theadimail" <theadimail at y...> 
wrote:

adi:
> Hi,
>   All this talk about "cat among pigeons" reminds me that the most 
> unexplored part of potterverse is their sayings and idioms. You can 
> say they are slight twists on normal muggle idioms but they are a 
> delight to read and in they are so many of them in the fifth book. 
> I'd been hoping somebody would kind of group them up at a single 
> place. I am always noting them down and forgetting them again.
>  Like from "Gulpin'gargoyles" to Mrs.Figg's "...dragon as for an 
> egg"(can't remember the start of it, sorry.)
>   Anyway, one phrase which I didn't understand perfectly was 
> Mundungus Fletcher's "keep your hairnet on". Can someone explain 
> what that might mean?

Geoff:
Many of these, as you say, are JKR's take on standard UK English 
sayings. "We might as well be hanged for a dragon as an egg" is a 
variant on "we might as well be hung for a sheep as for a lamb", 
meaning that something fairly small has happened but is now developng 
into something much bigger where we have to take further, more 
extreme, action which may well be dangerous or open to question......

"Keep your 'airnet on" is just modified from "Keep your hair on"  
which is enjoining an irritated listener to cool it, to calm down.




From gbannister10 at aol.com  Mon Mar 22 22:39:37 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 22:39:37 -0000
Subject: Horse Feathers
In-Reply-To: <84A746DB-7C42-11D8-A72A-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com>
Message-ID: <c3npv9+jbej@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93679

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Barry Arrowsmith 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:

Kneasy:
> We are told that Fawkes has given just two feathers.
> Not told where or when mind, that would be telling us too much.
> 
> Olivander ends up with both.
> He incorporates them into two wands.
> Voldy has one, Harry gets the other.
> Sheer chance of course.
> And if you believe that, you'll believe anything.
> 
> It stretches credulity just that little bit too far to accept that 
it's 
> all a coincidence.

Geoff:
Sorry but I must be being a little thick... Fawkes is a phoenix. how 
did the horse get in here? Or do Threstrals give feathers?





From gbannister10 at aol.com  Mon Mar 22 22:48:06 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 22:48:06 -0000
Subject: Just a question....
In-Reply-To: <c3nhb0+qhi9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3nqf6+l9kj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93680

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "allies426" <AllieS426 at a...> 
wrote:

Allie:
> I had mentioned this discussion to my sister before we saw one of 
> the Lord of the Rings movies.  She had never read the Rings books, 
> and I was telling her about the Wormtail/Wormtongue comparison, and 
> she was shocked when we finally met Wormtongue.  "What, while she 
> was writing the books, she said, 'I think I will call him... Worm-
> tail.' "
> 
> :)  Just another similarity.

Geoff:
Many moons ago, back about the 82500-82600 series of messages, I 
commented on similarities between Wormtail and Wormtongue and also 
drew parallels between Peter Pettigrew and Gollum.





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 22 22:49:17 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 22:49:17 -0000
Subject: Why didn't  Lily have to die?
In-Reply-To: <c3lsvn+djge@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3nqhd+3kvs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93681

Arianna:
<big snip>Maybe Voldy 
> simply didn't want any echo of a muggle-born in his system.  
> James' magical essence, that of a powerful pureblood, would be 
> welcomed. A filthy mudblood, on the other hand, well he 
> probably just didn't want to dirty his wand.
> 
>Yes, Arthur states in GOF that Death Eaters did kill muggles for 
> fun, but there is no evidence that Voldy himself engaged in 
> recreational muggle murder.  The murder of his father and 
> grandparents was an act of personal revenge.  Also, he didn't 
> actually kill muggle-born Moaning Myrtle, he had the basilisk do it 
> for him.


Carol:
I don't understand how "carrying on the noble work of Salazar
Slytherin" would somehow "dirty his wand." Also, what about the much
later murder of the Muggle Frank Bryce? 

Also, in response to part of your post that I snipped, if LV Imperio'd
Lily and she threw it off, it's very unlikely that he would have
called her a "silly girl." He'd have recognized her as a formidable
opponent and AK'd her then and there. But as we know, that didn't
happen. . . .

Carol




From gbannister10 at aol.com  Mon Mar 22 22:59:00 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 22:59:00 -0000
Subject: Underage Magic during war & at the MoM
In-Reply-To: <c3nnv1+c9as@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3nr3k+vpm7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93682

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tipgardner" <tipgardner at n...> 
wrote:
> "jenjar2001" wrote:
>  
> > Jenjar:
> > 
> > Forgive my ignorance but...who is Mark Evans?
> 

Geoff:
There was a lot of discussion on Mark Evans way back. I did post a 
summary which might help under the thread title "The Whole Evans 
Theory (longish)" which was message 85255. Again, if you can 
persevere wading back through masses of blank returns, try 
entering "Mark Evans" into the Yahoo search facility and keep 
tracking back into the low 80000 series message numbers.




From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net  Mon Mar 22 23:09:49 2004
From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 17:09:49 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Horse Feathers
References: <c3npv9+jbej@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <004001c41062$c6810480$05030f04@dslverizon.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 93683

Geoff:
Sorry but I must be being a little thick... Fawkes is a phoenix. how
did the horse get in here? Or do Threstrals give feathers?



{Silverthorne}

I do believe Kneasy is both making a joke and showing his age by using an
old expression more common to the 1950's.

Since we're discussing Phoenix feathers, he's tying it in through the
feathers, so to speak.

'Horse Feathers' is an expression that means "nonesense"...or, for the more
modern and less proper of us, it would translate as ' Bull-sh&*!'

Anne ^^;





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 22 23:12:44 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 23:12:44 -0000
Subject: Sirius/Tonks
In-Reply-To: <Sea2-F55KzGZuNY1SWo000058e0@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <c3nrtc+gi8e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93684

Kathy's wrote:
> 
> I think you may have hit on the very reason they did change. If the
ministry officials were to have captured Tonks as Sirius, all Tonks
would have to have done is switch back. In fact, she could be very
slippery to catch being able to inpersonate anyone at will. (Even
Fudge himself)<snip>

Carol:
I've already presented my reasons for not believing that Tonks and
Sirius switched places, so I'll just ask here: Do we really know the
extent of Tonks' abilities as a Metamorphmagus? We've seen her change
her hair and her nose at will and assume the shape of two different
older women, neither of whom is a character we recognize--and both
female, as well.

I don't know if this is relevant, but the sex of the animal an
*animagus* turns into is apparently the same as that of the witch or
wizard who's transfigured into the animal. James is a stag, definitely
male. Scabbers is male. Padfoot/Snuffles is also IIRC referred to as
male. So it's possible that a Metamorphmagus would be subject to
similar limitations. For that reason, I don't think we can freely
assume that Tonks can turn herself into a man, or even into a young
girl smaller than herself, whether or not the man or girl is a real
person like Sirius or Fudge or, say, Ginny. *Could* Tonks perhaps turn
herself into Professor McGonagall or Mrs. Weasley, or, more usefully
if she's a spy, Bellatrix? We haven't seen her do any such thing.
Until she does, I don't think we can safely state that she's "able to
impersonate anyone at will," only that she was born with the ability
to disguise her own identity.

Carol




From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu  Mon Mar 22 23:14:45 2004
From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 23:14:45 -0000
Subject: Underage Magic during war & at the MoM
In-Reply-To: <c3nlq5+qjlo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3ns15+uq1v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93685

<justcarol67 at y...> wrote:

> I agree, more or less, <<SNIPPED STUFF ABOUT UAM MONITORING>> but 
would like to add that IMO it's the place that's monitored, not the 
person, and that the MoM doesn't necessarily know who performed the 
magic: Note: "a hover charm *was performed*" in CoS. They don't know 
for sure who performed the charm but they assume that it was Harry 
because he's the only magical person in that neighborhood whose 
existence they're aware of. (They don't even know about the Squib 
neighbor, Mrs. Figg, and certainly don't know about Mark Evans if 
Mark is indeed magical.) The Patronus charm is also (correctly) 
assumed to be Harry, only this time they don't bother to use the 
passive voice because they're so eager to get Harry expelled, but 
still, I'm pretty sure it's an assumption based on their awareness
(or presumption) that no one else in the neighborhood could have cast 
the spell.
> 
---------
Then how would you explain how Tonks was able to use 'Scourgify' to 
clean Hedwig's cage and 'Pack!' to help Harry pack his trunk?  Moody 
also used the Disillusionment Charm on Harry in Privet Drive before 
they left.  And what's the point of the Order hanging around and 
watching Harry if they happen to use magic to defend him and it only 
results in Harry getting blamed for doing magic?  Wouldn't it be too 
easy for Volde to send over any idiot (DE or Imperio or other idiot) 
to just perform random magic around Privet Drive just to get Harry in 
trouble because he's supposedly the only wizard around?

I think I have to disagree.  There's more to it than just monitoring 
an area.  I also think there's something more complex to the 
monitoring because it knows when the magic is done before a muggle.  
IIRC in CoS, it mentions the business deal people Vernon had over for 
dinner as being witnesses to the Hover Charm.  In OotP it also says 
the Patronus Charm is done in front of a muggle (Dudley--who I don't 
think should count because duh--he obviously knows Harry is a wizard!)

I'm not sure how the monitoring works--it can't just be that they can 
monitor for ANY one person totally becasue that would make it all too 
easy to track escaped criminals (Sirius casts spells in the Shack in 
PoA and isdoing all sorts of spells in OotP)  Perhaps it's the 
wand??  When Harry goes to the MoM, they weight his wand and that's 
all the "ID" check thingy they do....does Ollivander register the 
wands and is that how *spells* are monitored?  But that still doesn't 
explain the Dobby Hover Charm...but I do think Dobby may be able to 
fake how a spell looks to fool the MoM's monitors...he's tricky elf.  
No answers and no hard theories...just more to ponder...

Arya






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 22 23:38:43 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 23:38:43 -0000
Subject: Why Harry never asks questions...
In-Reply-To: <c3muos+7lkm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3nte3+a9ho@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93686

vmonte wrote:
 
It really bothers me that Harry never asks questions. I realize 
that 
this is the way JKR keeps us from finding out information she is 
not 
ready to reveal, but it still bothers me.
> 
> Ginger interjected:
> It bugs me too, but I have faith that she will reveal all in her good 
> time. :)  Perhaps someone should slip Harry a curiosity potion.
><snip>

Maybe there's hope that he'll start asking them soon. Here's the
passage from OoP that makes me think so:

"'Wait!' Harry shouted after her [Mrs. Figg]; he had a million
questions to ask anyone who was in contact with Dumbledore; but within
seconds Mrs. Figg was swallowed by the darkness" (OoP Am. ed. 24).

Also, a few chapters later, he has the opportunity to tell the Order
members that he want to know what's going on (90), and both Sirius and
Lupin indicate that they think he should be told at least something
about what's happening. Dumbledore also has discovered the
consequences of concealing things from Harry (last chapter of OoP).
Now granted, Sirius is dead, and Harry's contacts with Dumbledore are
limited and the relationship between the two has been strained. But I
think, now that he knows who Mrs. Figg is, that he'll accept one of
her invitations to tea (OoP Am. ed. 2) and use that opportunity to ask
some pertinent questions. Probably he'll see Lupin at Grimmauld Place
(or some new headquarters) and do the same. Maybe he'll even start
listening to Snape, who I think has been giving him useful information
all along, including what occlumency is and how to learn it.

So there's hope, assuming that Harry brings himself out of his anger
and depression, and his calm confidence at the end of OoP suggests
that he will.

Carol, who hope he'll ask the *right* questions, meaning those that
*we* want answers to!




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 22 23:53:56 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 23:53:56 -0000
Subject: Ginny as prefect? (Was: Animagus-Patronus)
In-Reply-To: <c3n22n+ui5f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3nuak+qmg3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93687

vmonte wrote:
> 
> I think Ginny Weasley is going to become an Animagus. Just a feeling.

Carol:
I don't know. Possibly, having seen the life that Scabbers lived for
twelve years, she might be turned off to the idea. I imagine she'll
inherit the Maruader's Map, though, when Harry leaves Hogwarts, which
will be almost as useful for mischief and/or adventures as being an
animagus.

What I've been wondering is whether Ginny will become a prefect in
Book 6. She'll be the right age, and if she does, then Molly's remark,
"That's everyone in the family!" will actually be true, except for the
"next-door neighbors," Fred and George, who think prefects are prats.
Or is Ginny too much like them to get the job?

Carol, imagining the looks of horror on F and G's faces if they'd
received identical prefect badges in their fifth year




From nkafkafi at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 22 23:52:31 2004
From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 23:52:31 -0000
Subject: Horse Feathers
In-Reply-To: <84A746DB-7C42-11D8-A72A-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com>
Message-ID: <c3nu7v+fbr3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93688

Kneasy wrote:

We are told that Fawkes has given just two feathers.
Not told where or when mind, that would be telling us too much.

Olivander ends up with both.
He incorporates them into two wands.
Voldy has one, Harry gets the other.
Sheer chance of course.
And if you believe that, you'll believe anything.

It stretches credulity just that little bit too far to accept that 
it's all a coincidence.

<reluctant snip for the list elves>

The odds of the coincidence that we are presented with in PS/SS are
enormous, almost incalculable, even given that Harry has been at the
receiving end of one of the wands before. To think that Voldys attack
would influence Harry's choice ten years later is to argue that wands
can impart 'personality' to persons other than their users. I suppose
that some may say that it's the Voldy part of Harry that is 
influenced.
To do so is to presume that Harry is more Voldy than Harry - now
there's a pleasant thought!

<another reluctant snip>

Time and again it seems that DD knows too much, that he's able to
anticipate events, take corrective measures.
Is this another example?


Neri:
If DD is being a conspirator here, then IMO he is not doing a very 
good job of it. If I had a chance to slip Voldy and Harry tampered 
wands, I'd make sure that Voldy's wand would not function at all 
against Harry's wand. Not just arranging for a draw with that weird 
Priori Incantatum thing. Unless you mean that DD is not on the side 
of Good either, but just having fun playing Harry and Voldy against 
each other? I don't think this goes well the Choise theme.

IMO what you see as puppet-master!DD is actually puppet-master!JKR. 
Things definitely look too prearranged to be pure coincidence, but it 
is the Author who is to blame for this. And since DD is frequently 
used as the Author's voice, there is a tendency to mix the two.

Also IMO as readers we tend to judge DD and the other characters by 
their style rather than by the results of their actions. I pointed 
out in a previous post that Sirius was making correct and reasonable 
choices throughout OotP while DD had several glaring mistakes. But 
Sirius was making his choices with the air of an impulsive teenager, 
while DD, even when he admits to his mistakes, acts like a sage 
Sherlock Holmes to everybody's Watson, so we tend to believe even his 
mistakes were all for a purpose. As Nigellius points out, DD has 
certainly got style, but note that when Nigellius was making this 
obsevation, DD was just driven out of his power base because he'd 
failed making sure that Umbridge won't find out about the DA. Not 
very impressive for the Grand Puppet Master.        

IMHO Harry and Voldy are indeed very similar (as you say, not a 
pleasant thought). I hypothesized in the past that they are 
practically identical in their abilities ("and the Dark Lord will 
mark him as his *equal*"), aside of that power that Voldy knows not. 
It is only their opposing choices that make them so different. And 
wands are apparently objective tools that recognize the *abilities* 
of their masters, not their moral fiber ("terrible, but great"). So 
it is not surprising that the two brother wands chose Harry and Voldy.

Neri   





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 23 00:26:00 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 00:26:00 -0000
Subject: Uncle Vernon Tiptoe Through the Tulips (was: Mrs. Figg's 'Cat among the Pixi
In-Reply-To: <c3nhpj+uv1b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3o06o+cs2b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93689

Neri wrote:
Since we seem to be on a roll of "I didn't get it" posts, can 
somebody explain to me what was the point in:
<snip> 
"Uncle Vernon stayed at home again. After burning all the 
letters, he  got out a hammer and nails and boarded up the cracks 
around the  front and back doors so no one could go out. He 
hummed "Tiptoe through  the  Tulips" as he worked, and 
jumped at small noises."
<snip> But what was the joke? Or at least, what does it say about Vernon?
 
Potioncat:
<snip> In the late '60's or early '70's there was a comedian in 
the  U.S. who played a ukulele and sang "Tiptoe Through the 
Tulips" in a  very high voice.  His name was Tiny Tim  <snip> 

Pippin:
Tim's schtick was being a harmless weirdo: flowerchild looks, 
without the sex drugs and rock'n'roll. <snip> The joke is that 
Vernon, in his attempts to defend his household from weirdness, is
getting pretty weird himself.
 
Pippin
dating herself

Carol responds to everybody:
Weird yet still respectable, maybe? I think the joke works even
without bringing Tiny Tim into it. Can't you just imagine Uncle Vernon
singing, "Knee deep in flowers we'll stray/We'll keep the showers
away"? (It's the kind of thing my ex and I used to sing at Shakey's
Pizza Parlor when we were just old enough to legally drink beer. Of
course, we needed a stein or two first to lose our inhibitions, but it
was still good clean fun.)

Anyway the idea, IMO, is that Uncle Vernon is so absurdly happy that
he's singing a ridiculous, outdated Muggle song (which I believe is
actually from the 1940s, when he was either very young or not yet
born), but also that he seems to be losing his grip on sanity, as
indicated by nailing up the windows and doors. Which raises the
question of how they got out to get to the island a day or so later.
("Daddy's gone mad, hasn't he?")

Carol, also dating herself and imagining Uncle Vernon following the
bouncing ball on the movie screen as he chugs his beer and smiles happily




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Mar 23 00:35:35 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 00:35:35 -0000
Subject: Sirius/Tonks
In-Reply-To: <Sea2-F531ck7smmeCT700003ce1@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <c3o0on+g6pi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93690

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathy King" 
<kking0731 at h...> wrote:
> 
> One of the most confusing statements in Oop, for me, was 
when Bellatrix says  that she was busy fighting the Animagus 
Black. (pg. 812) Well, Black's  animagus form was a big black 
dog and we know she was not fighting a big  black dog. <

I think the point of this was to leave no doubt either for Harry or 
the reader  that the  DE's had indeed been informed about 
Black's animagus abilities.

Pippin




From jenjar2001 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 23 00:48:28 2004
From: jenjar2001 at yahoo.com (jenjar2001)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 00:48:28 -0000
Subject: Underage Magic during war & at the MoM
In-Reply-To: <c3nr3k+vpm7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3o1gs+28m0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93691

Geoff wrote:

> There was a lot of discussion on Mark Evans way back. I did post a 
> summary which might help under the thread title "The Whole Evans 
> Theory (longish)" which was message 85255. 


Jenjar:

Thanks!  I read through as many of the posts as I could find.  Very 
interesting.  I can't wait to learn more about Mark Evans...hopefully 
in book 6.




From angelgava at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 22 23:39:12 2004
From: angelgava at hotmail.com (angygarcia)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 23:39:12 -0000
Subject: Just a question....
In-Reply-To: <c3nqf6+l9kj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3ntf0+vumo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93692

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" 
<gbannister10 at a...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "allies426" <AllieS426 at a...> 
> wrote:
> 
> Allie:
> > I had mentioned this discussion to my sister before we saw one of 
> > the Lord of the Rings movies.  She had never read the Rings books, 
> > and I was telling her about the Wormtail/Wormtongue comparison, and 
> > she was shocked when we finally met Wormtongue.  "What, while she 
> > was writing the books, she said, 'I think I will call him... Worm-
> > tail.' "
> > 
> > :)  Just another similarity.
> 
> Geoff:
> Many moons ago, back about the 82500-82600 series of messages, I 
> commented on similarities between Wormtail and Wormtongue and also 
> drew parallels between Peter Pettigrew and Gollum.


Angy:
Besides J.K. Rowling sustains that her books aren't afected by the 
influence of the J.R.R. Tolkien books, I'm agree that there are 
strong simillarities between the two stories. How about the Nazgul? 
these nasty creatures are mentioned not only in the HP books as 
Dementors, but also in the new "Eragon" book as Ra'zac.







From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue Mar 23 00:58:41 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 00:58:41 -0000
Subject: Uncle Vernon Tiptoe Through the Tulips (was: Mrs. Figg's 'Cat among the Pixi
In-Reply-To: <c3o06o+cs2b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3o241+sp49@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93693

A lot of snipping from each of the following posts:
> Neri wrote:
> c "Tiptoe through  the  Tulips" as he worked, and 
> jumped at small noises."
> <snip> But what was the joke? Or at least, what does it say about 
Vernon?
>  
> Potioncat:
>   His name was Tiny Tim  <snip> 
> 
> Pippin:
> Tim's schtick was being a harmless weirdo:   
>
> 
> Carol responds to everybody:
> Anyway the idea, IMO, is that Uncle Vernon is so absurdly happy 
that
> he's singing a ridiculous, outdated Muggle song (which I believe is
> actually from the 1940s, when he was either very young or not yet
> born), but also that he seems to be losing his grip on sanity, as
> indicated by nailing up the windows and doors. Which raises the
> question of how they got out to get to the island a day or so 
later.
> ("Daddy's gone mad, hasn't he?")
> 
> Carol, also dating herself and imagining Uncle Vernon following the
> bouncing ball on the movie screen as he chugs his beer and smiles 
happily



Potioncat:  I think Carol has kept us on topic and come up with the 
best canon answer and has wiped my memory of the awful comparison I 
came up with earlier but now has me singing old bar songs at the top 
of my voice and my children are saying "Mummy's gone mad, hasn't 
she?" in adorable little English accents.

Potioncat: who is ever so much more than 20.




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 23 01:10:30 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 01:10:30 -0000
Subject: Horse Feathers
In-Reply-To: <84A746DB-7C42-11D8-A72A-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com>
Message-ID: <c3o2q6+v52q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93694

Kneasy wrote:
> We are told that Fawkes has given just two feathers.
> Not told where or when mind, that would be telling us too much.
> 
> Olivander ends up with both.
> He incorporates them into two wands.
> Voldy has one, Harry gets the other.
> Sheer chance of course.
> And if you believe that, you'll believe anything.
> 
> It stretches credulity just that little bit too far to accept that it's 
> all a coincidence.
> 
> It's maybe significant that Ollivander tells Harry that the counterpart 
> of his wand was bought by He Who Must Not Be Named; not Tom Riddle - 
> Voldemort. <snip>

Actually, Ollivander doesn't say that the wand was bought by Voldemort
*as* Voldemort. After informing Harry that he remembers every wand
he's ever sold and talking about the phoenix feathers, he says, "It is
very curious indeed that you should be destined for this wand when its
brother--why, its brother gave you that scar." Then he describes the
wand and says, the wand chooses the wizard remember. . . . I think we
must expect great things from you, Mr. Potter. After all, He-Who-Must-
Not-Be-Named did great things. Terrible, but great" (SS Am. ed. 85).

So the "great things" were performed after Tom Riddle was transformed
into Voldemort, but there's no indication that the wand itself was
bought by Voldemort in post-Tom Riddle form. It's still quite
possible, and I think likely, that the wand sensed the power of the
eleven-year-old Tom just as its brother chose the eleven-year-old Harry.

As for how Ollivander knew that Tom Riddle became Voldemort (mentioned
a part of your post that I snipped--sorry), why couldn't Dumbledore
have just told him? They're probably old friends. They could even be
about the same age, or as old as DD is, he could even be Ollivander's
former teacher. It's even possible that Ollivander is a secret member
of the Order, keeping an eye on all of the incoming Hogwarts first
years and reporting anyone suspicious or particularly interesting to
Dumbledore.

Carol




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 23 01:28:01 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 01:28:01 -0000
Subject: Underage Magic during war & at the MoM
In-Reply-To: <c3nnv1+c9as@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3o3r1+de5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93695

Jenjar:
Forgive my ignorance but...who is Mark Evans?
 
Tip:
Mark Evans lives in the Dursley's neighborhood (I believe Dudley's 
gang is beating him up) and he is mentioned at the beginning of OotP.
 
Carol:
Well, yes, but the key points (as Jenjar has probably discovered by
now) are that he's ten years old at the beginning of OoP (just the
right age to attend Hogwarts in the next book) and he shares Lily's
last name (her maiden name). Since JKR doesn't usually throw in names
with no reason, we've speculated that he may be a Muggle-born wizard
distantly related to Harry. The pros and cons have already been
thoroughly discussed, but I though it would be useful to explain why I
mentioned him in the post Jenjar was referring to.

Carol, who thinks Mark is the great-grandson of a Squib who was also
Lily's and Petunia's grandfather (or something of that sort)




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 23 01:34:34 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 01:34:34 -0000
Subject: Horse Feathers
In-Reply-To: <c3npv9+jbej@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3o47a+an8k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93696

Kneasy:
We are told that Fawkes has given just two feathers.
Not told where or when mind, that would be telling us too much.
 
Olivander ends up with both.
He incorporates them into two wands.
Voldy has one, Harry gets the other.
Sheer chance of course.
And if you believe that, you'll believe anything.
 
It stretches credulity just that little bit too far to accept that 
it's all a coincidence.
 
Geoff:
Sorry but I must be being a little thick... Fawkes is a phoenix. how 
did the horse get in here? Or do Threstrals give feathers?

Carol:
That should be hippogriffs, right?

Carol, who wonders why Ollivander uses only three magical cores when
so many other possibilities are available




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue Mar 23 01:44:08 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 01:44:08 -0000
Subject: Horse Feathers now wand cores
In-Reply-To: <c3o47a+an8k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3o4p8+gl72@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93697

Carol wrote: 
> Carol, who wonders why Ollivander uses only three magical cores 
when
> so many other possibilities are available


Potioncat:
While we only know about 3 cores, does that mean he only uses 3 
cores? Particularly since there is one core he only used twice.
Potioncat: still singing (I'm on that awful song about the Titanic 
now.)




From tub_of_earwax at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 23 01:48:18 2004
From: tub_of_earwax at yahoo.com (tub_of_earwax)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 01:48:18 -0000
Subject: Just a question....
In-Reply-To: <c3ntf0+vumo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3o512+tk8a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93698

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "angygarcia" <angelgava at h...> 
wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" 
> <gbannister10 at a...> wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "allies426" 
<AllieS426 at a...> 
> > wrote:
> > 
> > Allie:
> > > I had mentioned this discussion to my sister before we saw one 
of 
> > > the Lord of the Rings movies.  She had never read the Rings 
books, 
> > > and I was telling her about the Wormtail/Wormtongue 
comparison, and 
> > > she was shocked when we finally met Wormtongue.  "What, while 
she 
> > > was writing the books, she said, 'I think I will call him... 
Worm-
> > > tail.' "
> > > 
> > > :)  Just another similarity.
> > 
> > Geoff:
> > Many moons ago, back about the 82500-82600 series of messages, I 
> > commented on similarities between Wormtail and Wormtongue and 
also 
> > drew parallels between Peter Pettigrew and Gollum.
> 
> 
> Angy:
> Besides J.K. Rowling sustains that her books aren't afected by the 
> influence of the J.R.R. Tolkien books, I'm agree that there are 
> strong simillarities between the two stories. How about the 
Nazgul? 
> these nasty creatures are mentioned not only in the HP books as 
> Dementors, but also in the new "Eragon" book as Ra'zac.


Now Me:
JKR has said that the Lord of the Rings trilogy has not affected her 
writing, and btw she didn't even like them that much. I do see what 
you all are saying, especially with Wormtongue/Wormtail, although 
that can be a coincidence as a rat is, well obvious symbolism and 
many evil overlords have minions like that in many stories. 

But I do not see the parallel with the Nazgul and the Dementors. The 
Nazgul are not seperate creatures, but they are "the damned" if you 
will. They are not alive, nor dead and they are forever searching 
for the ring. The Demenotrs on the other hand are a seperate 
creature, like dogs and cats only much more dangerous and scary, and 
you know, magical. We do not know whether they are dead or alive or 
the non-dead, but all evidence points to them being part of the 
beast division at the MoM (and not the spirit one). It would be 
mentioned, I would say in FB. They are not looking for a certain 
something, like the ring, but for people they can feed on. They are 
driven by lust, not greed. When the Nazgul hurt you, you become one 
of them, when Dementors kiss you, you become a vegetable. At first 
site they seem alike, but they are not. 

Just my two knuts. 

*Lara*. 




From ellyn337 at earthlink.net  Tue Mar 23 02:01:22 2004
From: ellyn337 at earthlink.net (mclellyn)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 02:01:22 -0000
Subject: "Snape's Job"
In-Reply-To: <c3ghba+nn57@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3o5pi+5751@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93699

-justcarol67 at y...> wrote:
> owlery2003 commented:
> It's a tribute to the depth JKR built into Snape's mysterious 
> character. I think it's easy to see how Severus gets away with it. 
 Nobody "trusts" him (except DD, of course!), and everybody suspects 
 him. He's not likeable (to other characters in the books!!). 
  
 Ravenclaw Bookworm:
 I disagree. Other than Sirius, whose animosity goes back years, most 
 adults seem to accept Snape.  
  
 <quotes snipped>
  
 <snip>
 
 Carol:
 <snip>
 And BTW, in GoF, at least, Hermione repeatedly reminds Ron that
 Dumbledore trusts Snape. I can't remember whether she does the same
 thing in OoP. But rather than saying that it's the Trio who doesn't
 trust Snape, I'd say it's Ron and Harry. Otherwise I agree completely
 with RB's post.
 
 Gadfly McLellyn:

If Dumbledore trusts Snape then why at the end of GOF when Dumbledore 
says to Snape "you know what I must ask you to do" segment he looks 
at him with "a trace of apprehension on his face, as Snape swept 
wordlessly after Sirius" p713 US paperback Parting of the Ways 
chapter?  He may be telling the pupils he trusts Snape because he 
doesn't want to undermine his teachers authority.  But that passage 
does open some doubt that Dumbledore does trust Snape.  Dumbledore 
can be fooled....think of QuirrelMort, Evil!Moody
Gadfly McLellyn
  




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 23 02:02:22 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 02:02:22 -0000
Subject: Underage Magic during war & at the MoM
In-Reply-To: <c3ns15+uq1v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3o5re+6r1j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93700

Carol wrote:
> > I agree, more or less, <<SNIPPED STUFF ABOUT UAM MONITORING>> but 
> would like to add that IMO it's the place that's monitored, not the 
> person, and that the MoM doesn't necessarily know who performed the 
> magic: Note: "a hover charm *was performed*" in CoS. They don't know 
> for sure who performed the charm but they assume that it was Harry 
> because he's the only magical person in that neighborhood whose 
> existence they're aware of. (They don't even know about the Squib 
> neighbor, Mrs. Figg, and certainly don't know about Mark Evans if 
> Mark is indeed magical.) The Patronus charm is also (correctly) 
> assumed to be Harry, only this time they don't bother to use the 
> passive voice because they're so eager to get Harry expelled, but 
> still, I'm pretty sure it's an assumption based on their awareness
> (or presumption) that no one else in the neighborhood could have cast 
> the spell.

Arya:
> Then how would you explain how Tonks was able to use 'Scourgify' to 
> clean Hedwig's cage and 'Pack!' to help Harry pack his trunk?  Moody 
> also used the Disillusionment Charm on Harry in Privet Drive before 
> they left. And what's the point of the Order hanging around and 
> watching Harry if they happen to use magic to defend him and it only 
> results in Harry getting blamed for doing magic?  <snip>

Carol:
I wondered about that, too. I think that the Order members didn't
really care at that point. It was important just to get Harry out of
there. Since a much more difficult piece of magic had already been
performed and Harry was going to attend a hearing because of it, they
probably figured that a few minor spells wouldn't make any difference.
Also, the Muggles were gone from the house, as the MoM could probably
tell, so it really didn't matter at that point. Maybe they've even
temporarily made the house undetectable as part of the escape plan. 

Arya: 
> I think I have to disagree.  There's more to it than just monitoring 
> an area.  I also think there's something more complex to the 
> monitoring because it knows when the magic is done before a muggle.

Carol:
Exactly. There was no Muggle present to witness the scourgify and
disillusionment spells used by the Order members so they were largely
insignificant.
 
Arya:
> I'm not sure how the monitoring works--it can't just be that they can 
> monitor for ANY one person totally becasue that would make it all too 
> easy to track escaped criminals (Sirius casts spells in the Shack in 
> PoA and isdoing all sorts of spells in OotP)  Perhaps it's the 
> wand??  When Harry goes to the MoM, they weight his wand and that's 
> all the "ID" check thingy they do....does Ollivander register the 
> wands and is that how *spells* are monitored?  But that still doesn't 
> explain the Dobby Hover Charm...but I do think Dobby may be able to 
> fake how a spell looks to fool the MoM's monitors...he's tricky elf.  
> No answers and no hard theories...just more to ponder...


Carol:
You're right. It can't be the wand or they would have known that no
wand was involved in Dobby's Hover Charm. I still think it's the
location, and, as you say, the detectable presence of Muggles. I don't
think they can tell *who* is performing the magic, only when and where
and whether Muggles were present. If the only (known) person who can
perform magic in those circumstances is an underage witch or wizard,
the kid is in trouble. But if Fred, age seven, turns little Ronnie's
teddy bear into a spider, there are no consequences--at least not from
the MoM--because the MoM can't tell who performed the spell and there
are no Muggles present.

Carol




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Tue Mar 23 02:05:21 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 02:05:21 -0000
Subject: "Snape's Job"
In-Reply-To: <c3o5pi+5751@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3o611+u58i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93701

Gadfly McLellyn:
> If Dumbledore trusts Snape then why at the end of GOF when 
Dumbledore 
> says to Snape "you know what I must ask you to do" segment he 
looks 
> at him with "a trace of apprehension on his face, as Snape swept 
> wordlessly after Sirius" p713 US paperback Parting of the Ways 
> chapter?  He may be telling the pupils he trusts Snape because he 
> doesn't want to undermine his teachers authority.  But that 
passage 
> does open some doubt that Dumbledore does trust Snape.  Dumbledore 
> can be fooled....think of QuirrelMort, Evil!Moody


I took DD's apprehension here as apprehension over where Snape must 
go/what Snape must do. That is, that he was *worried* about what 
Snape was going off to face, not that he was worried about whether 
Snape could be trusted.

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From annemehr at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 23 02:18:36 2004
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 02:18:36 -0000
Subject: Halfbloods in Slytherin?  Was:Re: Is Snape a Snake?
In-Reply-To: <c3njr9+r9mc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3o6ps+ctnk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93702

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Tanya Swaine 
> <swaine.t at x> wrote:
> >> Hmmmm, I'm still fence sitting, but it would be very easy to be 
> selective  with information.
>  But Snape had to have a certain value to LV, Malfoy had wealth 
> and influence.  That could just be as simple as an extreme talent 
> for potions.  But anyway, do you know of a link to that image?  <<
> 
> It's in the photos section of our very own group:
> 
> http://tinyurl.com/2carb
> 
> Pippin

If you go there, and proceed ahead to pics #14 and #15, looking at the
list of students, look at the symbols in the middle column, which seem
to stand for muggle/wizard origins.  Vincent Crabbe and Gregory Goyle
have the same circled star that the half-blooded Seamus Finnegan has,
and not the plain star that Millicent Bulstrode is shown with.

I'd forgotten all about these -- thanks, Pippin!

Annemehr




From elizabeth1603 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 23 02:42:15 2004
From: elizabeth1603 at yahoo.com (elizabeth1603 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 02:42:15 -0000
Subject: Just a question....
In-Reply-To: <c3o512+tk8a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3o867+hnla@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93703

snip

Lara:
> But I do not see the parallel with the Nazgul and the Dementors. 

snip

I agree. I don't see much of a connection between Lord of the Rings 
and Harry Potter. They both involve wizards and good and evil and all 
that, but I think they're two completely different stories. 

However, I recently finished Philip Pullman's His Dark Materials, and 
I thought there were several similarities there. For example, deamons 
and patronuses both take on a form that corresponds to the person's 
personality and then protect the person they came from, and spectres 
and dementors both suck the consciousness out of people, with similar 
effects. Well, maybe it doesn't go much further than that, but I 
thought it was interesting. 

I'm cautious when it comes to comparing contemporary authors because 
I don't want to imply one gets ideas from another, but it is 
conceivable that another author's work would influence JKR in the 
teensiest of ways. That's what good writing does to us all.

Elli




From MadameSSnape at aol.com  Tue Mar 23 02:41:55 2004
From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 21:41:55 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Snape a Snake?
Message-ID: <59.79a38d5.2d90fdf3@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93704

In a message dated 3/22/2004 12:43:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
foxmoth at qnet.com writes:
Considering JKR's  own drawing of Snape with Bela Lugosi style 
high collar and arms folded on his chest, I'm not changing my 
vote.

Pippin
=======================================

Sherrie here:

Actually, that never really reminded me of Bela - what came to my mind was 
Maleficent's outfit from Disney's Sleeping Beauty...or Ming the Merciless...

Sherrie
"Unless history lives in our present, it has no future." 
PRESERVE OUR CIVIL WAR BATTLEFIELDS!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From MadameSSnape at aol.com  Tue Mar 23 02:53:46 2004
From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 21:53:46 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "Snape's Job"
Message-ID: <196.2759afd2.2d9100ba@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93705

In a message dated 3/22/2004 9:04:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
ellyn337 at earthlink.net writes:
If Dumbledore trusts Snape then why at the end of GOF when Dumbledore 
says to Snape "you know what I must ask you to do" segment he looks 
at him with "a trace of apprehension on his face, as Snape swept 
wordlessly after Sirius" p713 US paperback Parting of the Ways 
chapter?  
========================

Sherrie here:

Because whatever he's asked Snape to do, it's dangerous, and he's 
apprehensive FOR him, not OF him?

Just a thought...I have them every now & again... <G>

Sherrie
"Unless history lives in our present, it has no future." 
PRESERVE OUR CIVIL WAR BATTLEFIELDS!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 23 03:01:21 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 03:01:21 -0000
Subject: Horse Feathers now wand cores
In-Reply-To: <c3o4p8+gl72@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3o9a1+jvl9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93706

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at m...>
wrote:
> Carol wrote: 
> > Carol, who wonders why Ollivander uses only three magical cores 
> when
> > so many other possibilities are available
> 
> 
> Potioncat:
> While we only know about 3 cores, does that mean he only uses 3 
> cores? Particularly since there is one core he only used twice.
> Potioncat: still singing (I'm on that awful song about the Titanic 
> now.)

Carol:
Mr. Ollivander has apparently used phoenix feathers from other
phoenixes, not just the two from Fawkes. One of the wands Harry tries
but doesn't succeed with also has a phoenix feather core: "Maple and
phoenix feather. Seven inches. Quite whippy" (SS Am. ed. 84). And as
Mr. O. tells Harry earlier in the same scene:

"Every Ollivander wand has a core of a powerful magical substance, Mr.
Potter. We use unicorn hairs, phoenix tail feathers, and the
heartstrings of dragons. No two Ollivander wands are the same, just as
no two unicorns, dragons, or phoenixes are quite the same" (SS Am. ed.
84).

So it sounds to me as if the variety comes chiefly from the length,
the type of wood (which would affect flexibility and possibly the
magical properties of the wand), and whatever differences between one
beast of the same species and another might be reflected in their
hair, feathers, etc. Maybe the heartstring of a Norwegian Ridgeback
has different properties from that of a Chinese Fireball (or whatever
it's called).

Anyway, I understand why Ollivander doesn't use veela hair ("too
temperamental," as he tells Fleur in GoF, but he still seems very
limited in his choice of cores.

On a side note: There must be a lot of unicorn hair wands, so the fact
that both Cedric and Ron have them probably is not a sign that Ron is
going to die, as some people on this list have argued. More likely his
abilities have something in common with Cedric's.

And another side note: Whom does Ollivander mean by "we?" Are the
readers and Harry going to meet an Ollivander, Jr., destined to take
over the business when Mr. O. finally dies? (I actually hope so. What
a loss to the WW if his shop goes out of business because he has no
successor!)

Carol, who calls Kneasy's attention to another quotation from early in
the same scene: "I'm sorry to say I sold the wand that did it [caused
the scar]. . . . If I'd known what that wand was going out into the
world to do" (SS Am. ed. 83). Seems to argue against a conspiracy
theory. . . .





From firebush105 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 22 23:56:49 2004
From: firebush105 at yahoo.com (Jessica Ferguson)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 15:56:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Just a question....
In-Reply-To: <c3mm5m+sv4k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040322235649.74997.qmail@web60101.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93707

I'm sure most of you have either read, or seen, Lord Of The 
Rings...is it just me, or has anyone else noticed certain 
similarities between that and Harry Potter? There are many things 
that are related....take the scene where the goblins surround the 
Fellowship in the Halls of Moriah...reminds me of Harry and Ron 
surrounded by the spiders! Then, of course, there's also the giant 
spider that Frodo and Sam face....(Harry and Ron again!)

I read somewhere that JKR was a huge fan or C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien, so there are elements from their stories tht she implements into her stories, either consciously or unconsciously (consciously, I think) from reading them and them being such a big influence on her.


Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 23 03:19:59 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 03:19:59 -0000
Subject: "Snape's Job"
In-Reply-To: <c3o5pi+5751@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3oacv+cfrj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93708

Carol:
<snip>  And BTW, in GoF, at least, Hermione repeatedly reminds Ron
that Dumbledore trusts Snape. I can't remember whether she does the
same thing in OoP. But rather than saying that it's the Trio who
doesn't trust Snape, I'd say it's Ron and Harry. <snip>
  
Gadfly McLellyn:

If Dumbledore trusts Snape then why at the end of GOF when Dumbledore 
> says to Snape "you know what I must ask you to do" segment he looks 
> at him with "a trace of apprehension on his face, as Snape swept 
> wordlessly after Sirius" p713 US paperback Parting of the Ways 
> chapter?  He may be telling the pupils he trusts Snape because he 
> doesn't want to undermine his teachers authority.  But that passage 
> does open some doubt that Dumbledore does trust Snape.  Dumbledore 
> can be fooled....think of QuirrelMort, Evil!Moody

Carol:
IMO, DD's apprehension is for Snape's safety. He's clearly doing
something dangerous and DD is afraid he may be captured or killed, not
that he'll betray the Order. He wishes him "good luck" as he walks out
the door, evidence of his hope and concern, not of his suspicion. DD
wouldn't trust Snape with such a dangerous assignment or with teaching
Harry occlumency if he didn't trust him, and he makes the same
assertion about trusting him at the end of OoP: "'I trust Severus
Snape,'" said Dumbledore simply" (OoP Am. ed. 833). Snape has either
saved Harry or shown himself trustworthy in some other way in every
book. Note that Snape's image appeared in the foe glass along with
Dumbledore's and McGonagall's in GoF. They are clearly on the same
side--and all of them were enemies of DE Crouch. Note also that JKR in
her latest chat said that DD trusts Snape because he believes his story.

I agree that DD can be fooled, as he certainly was by Quirrell and
Crouch!Moody, but he's been working with Snape for fourteen years, not
counting the year during which Snape was a spy for DD before
Voldemort's fall. Snape is always at his side in a crisis as his
right-hand man. I'll be very surprised, and very disappointed, if DD
is wrong about Snape.

Carol 




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue Mar 23 03:26:18 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 03:26:18 -0000
Subject: Horse Feathers now wand cores
In-Reply-To: <c3o9a1+jvl9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3oaoq+7rei@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93709

snipping Potioncat's post and parts of Carol's
Carol wrote:
> Mr. O. tells Harry earlier in the same scene:
> 
> "Every Ollivander wand has a core of a powerful magical substance, 
Mr.
> Potter. We use unicorn hairs, phoenix tail feathers, and the
> heartstrings of dragons. No two Ollivander wands are the same, 
just as
> no two unicorns, dragons, or phoenixes are quite the same" (SS Am. 
ed.
> 84).

> So it sounds to me as if the variety comes chiefly from the length,
> the type of wood (which would affect flexibility and possibly the
> magical properties of the wand), and whatever differences between 
one
> beast of the same species and another might be reflected in their
> hair, feathers, etc. Maybe the heartstring of a Norwegian Ridgeback
> has different properties from that of a Chinese Fireball (or 
whatever
> it's called).
> 
> Anyway, I understand why Ollivander doesn't use veela hair ("too
> temperamental," as he tells Fleur in GoF, but he still seems very
> limited in his choice of cores.
> 
> On a side note: There must be a lot of unicorn hair wands, so the 
fact
> that both Cedric and Ron have them probably is not a sign that Ron 
is
> going to die, as some people on this list have argued. More likely 
his
> abilities have something in common with Cedric's.
> 


Potioncat:
Carol, even as I sent my post, I knew you'd come up with quotes to 
back up your stand.  I concede.  

But given that both Fleur and Victor have wands made from a 
different maker, I wonder if any of the Hogwarts students bought 
wands from a different wand maker? We know that Malfoy was shopping 
at Ollivanders.

I agree with you about Ron and Cedric.  Perhaps they both 
value "fair play."

And although it isn't in this post (not sure if I snipped it or if 
it was a different post altogether) I think Tom Riddle and Harry 
Potter did have a lot of common traits even before any transference 
of powers which would explain why they have brother wands.
Potioncat




From navarro198 at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 23 03:58:27 2004
From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 03:58:27 -0000
Subject: Sirius/Tonks
In-Reply-To: <c3mopq+n0f5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3ocl3+vlfr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93710

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Berit Jakobsen" 
<belijako at o...> wrote:
> 
> My two knuts: Sirius is dead *because* he's not a coward. A live 
> Sirius in this scenario would not be "our" Sirius as we have 
learned 
> to know him in the HP series. Either way, it means you can't have 
> your Sirius :-(  Let the poor guy rest and enjoy the memory of 
him :-)

Bookworm:
Call me idealist or naive if you want, but I believe JKR when she 
says that Sirius Black is dead. Here's a quote from her interview 
with Jeremy Paxton just before OoP was released:

JEREMY PAXMAN: And is there going to be a death in this book? 
JK ROWLING: Yes. A horrible, horrible 
JEREMY PAXMAN: A horrible death of a significant figure. 
JK ROWLING: Yeah. I went into the kitchen having done it.... 
JEREMY PAXMAN: What, killed this person? 
JK ROWLING: Yeah. Well I had re-written the death, re-written it and 
that was it. It was definitive. And the person was definitely dead. 
And I walked into the kitchen crying and Neil said to me, "What on 
earth is wrong?" and I said, "Well, I've just killed the person". 
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/3004594.stm)

This has been referenced many times, but I guess some people just 
don't want to believe it. I seems pretty straight-forward to me, 
unlike some of her other cagey answers.

Ravenclaw Bookworm




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue Mar 23 03:59:05 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 03:59:05 -0000
Subject: Snape, trying very hard not to smile? Or is he just allergic to cats?
In-Reply-To: <c3lah3+sn19@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3ocm9+c5ut@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93711

snipping previous post
> Carol wrote:
> I'm not sure that Snape and Filch friends, but they're certainly
> allies in the quest to find students out of bounds after hours, and
> they were both working to prevent anyone from trying to enter the
> corridor with the sorceror's (philosopher's) stone. (Did Filch know
> that Quirrell was after it? I can't remember.)
> 
> I've always wondered why Snape didn't go to Madam Pomfrey (rather 
than
> Filch) with his injured leg. Possibly he didn't want her to know 
that
> he had entered the chamber with the three-headed dog to head off
> Quirrell, but I can't see a good reason for this view since he's
> working for Dumbledore and Madam P. is on the same side. (Anyone?)
x
> 
> As for Snape's speech patterns around Filch, he would have no need 
to
> impress or intimidate the castle caretaker, so he could be more
> himself around Filch than around the students even if he and Filch
> aren't close friends. (I do like Pippin"s idea that he was showing
> consideration for Filch's feelings about Mrs. Norris because I'd 
like
> to believe he's a decent person beneath his sarcastic exterior, 
but I
> think he was probably just concealing his amusement from the 
students
> because he knew it was an inappropriate reaction.)
> 


Potioncat:
I came to the conclusion that Snape went to Filch for help rather 
than to Poppy because either he hadn't told DD he was watching 
Quirrell or 
that he wanted Quirrell to think he was working for himself.  "Where 
your loyalties lie" I think referred to "Dumbledore or me"  I don't 
think Snape knew LV was so close or he would have used that 
opportunity to try to destroy him.

I also thought Snape and Filch might be friends of sort. However in 
GoF during the egg/Moody incident when Harry is invisible and it 
seems to be just Snape and Filch  the tone Snape uses with Filch 
makes me think Filch is just an employee of Hogwarts in Snape's 
mind.  He was someone he could call upon back in the SS/PS days.  
Certainly, Snape and Filch have different loyalties in OoP.

As for Snape's smile during the examination of Mrs. Norris:  I can't 
work out whether Harry was wrong about the smile...was it some other 
expression?  Or whether, Snape like JKR doesn't like cats in the 
first place and was amused at the concern.

OK, now someone is going to ask me for the JKR quote that says she 
doesn't like cats.  I'll go look for it now.

Potioncat (99 butterbeers on the wall....)





From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Tue Mar 23 04:03:10 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 23 Mar 2004 05:03:10 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Underage Magic during war & at the MoM
Message-ID: <20040323040310.3875630E571@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 93712

 Carol:
> You're right. It can't be the wand or they would have known that no
> wand was involved in Dobby's Hover Charm. I still think it's the
> location, and, as you say, the detectable presence of Muggles. I don't
> think they can tell *who* is performing the magic, only when and where
> and whether Muggles were present. If the only (known) person who can
> perform magic in those circumstances is an underage witch or wizard,
> the kid is in trouble. But if Fred, age seven, turns little Ronnie's
> teddy bear into a spider, there are no consequences--at least not from
> the MoM--because the MoM can't tell who performed the spell and there
> are no Muggles present.

I still think it's a wand and I'll elaborate in a moment. First I want to say that I agree with posters who'd said the Muggleborns kids are probably monitored more than Wizardborns - they know less about the stuff, so they can be more dangerous, especially when they start to show off in front of their old Muggle pals during holidays. And there is less help promptly available in case anyhing goes really wrong.

I think children below Hogwarts age are regarded as sole responsibility of parents and also not very powerful, since they are wandless ("you'll never have as good results using sb.'s else wand" - Ollivander). And also that magic filed areas like Diagon Alley are not really monitored, so Hermione reparing Harry's glasses goes unpunished.

The location/Muggle present theory brings a problem of Muggle detection - how do they do tis? It's harder to keep track of somebody without magical ability than on wand I presume, and besides there is 60 milions of them in UK, the vermin is swarming everywhere.

The wand tracing theory explains Order members using their magic in Privet Drive. As for Dobby - I think it can be a hole in detection system. SInce his magic is not attributable to any wand, it was "automatically" attributed to the closest wand. At the same token his magic performed in the Malfoy Mansion will b attributed to one of the owners - which accidentaly makes sense, because it gives additional responsibility to the masters for their elf misbehaviour.

Cheers, Viridis
________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!



From vmonte at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 23 04:31:18 2004
From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 04:31:18 -0000
Subject: Horse Feathers
In-Reply-To: <c3nl4s+aopq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3oeim+k3i8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93713

Eustace_Scrubb wrote:
Seriously though in message 93421, I wondered about this very
question.  But I'm not sure we even know enough to know _how_ big a
coincidence it is.  (See also my followup essage 93469)  How many
phoenixes are there?  Who decides they should "give" a feather?  How
long has Dumbledore been Fawkes' human?  Maybe Fawkes gave one feather
to Godric Gryffindor and the other to Salazar Slytherin.  Ollivander's
has been in business since 382 BC, after all.
Speculation is definitely warranted...maybe even conspiracy theories.
 
vmonte responds:

I've always had the feeling that Olivander was Flamel.

vmonte




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 23 04:43:25 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 04:43:25 -0000
Subject: Snape, trying very hard not to smile? Or is he just allergic to cats?
In-Reply-To: <c3ocm9+c5ut@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3of9d+cvll@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93714

Carol wrote:
>>I'm not sure that Snape and Filch [are] friends, but they're certainly
allies in the quest to find students out of bounds after hours, and
they were both working to prevent anyone from trying to enter the
corridor with the sorceror's (philosopher's) stone. <snip> 
I've always wondered why Snape didn't go to Madam Pomfrey (rather 
than Filch) with his injured leg. <snip> As for Snape's speech
patterns around Filch, he would have no need to impress or intimidate
the castle caretaker, so he could be more himself around Filch than
around the students even if he and Filch aren't close friends.<< 
 
> Potioncat responded:
> I came to the conclusion that Snape went to Filch for help rather 
> than to Poppy because either he hadn't told DD he was watching 
> Quirrell or that he wanted Quirrell to think he was working for
himself. "Where your loyalties lie" I think referred to "Dumbledore or
me" I don't think Snape knew LV was so close or he would have used
that opportunity to try to destroy him. 

Carol again:
I agree that Snape probably didn't know that Voldemort was right there
inside Quirrell's turban, but I think Quirrell must have known that
Snape's loyalties lay with Dumbledore, in which case loyalty to
"Dumbledore or me" wouldn't make any sense. I also think Snape *did*
want Quirrell to know that he suspected him of disloyalty to
Dumbledore, which would imply loyalty to Dumbledore's enemies, if not
Voldemort then the DEs. IMO, the mere fact that Quirrell was after the
sorceror's stone, which could confer immortality, would suggest to
someone as sharp as Snape that Quirrell must somehow be working for
Voldemort and that Voldemort was trying to return. Since JKR was
setting up Snape as a red herring (the apparent villain) in the first
book, she kept the dialogue deliberately vague, so I can't back up
what I'm saying with quotations. I'm only presenting the view that
makes most sense to me.

Potioncat:
> I also thought Snape and Filch might be friends of sort. However in 
> GoF during the egg/Moody incident when Harry is invisible and it 
> seems to be just Snape and Filch the tone Snape uses with Filch 
> makes me think Filch is just an employee of Hogwarts in Snape's 
> mind.  He was someone he could call upon back in the SS/PS days.  
> Certainly, Snape and Filch have different loyalties in OoP. <snip>

Carol:
I think there's definitely a difference in rank (wizard vs. Squib,
teacher vs. caretaker) that Snape may subtly exploit when he's not
angry about having his office broken into at three in the morning, and
there's definitely a difference in their preferred methods of
discipline (Filch has no subtlety. He's all for medieval torture
chambers rather than sarcasm, deducting points, and detention.)
There's a huge difference in intellectual and educational level that I
think would prevent them from being close friends, but there is or was
also a common bond of trust in Dumbledore that made them allies in the
first three or four books. (I think Filch is yet another person to
whom DD gave a second chance, but of course that's just speculation.) 

But, as you suggest, Filch's devotion to Umbridge in OoP while Snape
(as far as we can tell) remains loyal to Dumbledore is a definite
parting of the ways. I wonder if Filch will prove a traitor in Book 6
or 7. Fortunately, he doesn't seem very bright, but he's sadistic, and
he could prove dangerous in his way.

Carol, with apologies for not replying to your wand post but I didn't
have anything to add




From navarro198 at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 23 04:49:51 2004
From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 04:49:51 -0000
Subject: The Podmore Connection--Percy as DD's Spy
In-Reply-To: <c3hr2s+e1em@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3oflf+r77t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93715

Kimberly wrote:
I really don't think Percy is acting for the Order.  There are 
plenty of DD's spys in the Ministry (Kingsley Shacklebolt, Arthur, 
Tonks), and everyone in the Order is allowed to know about them.  

Pippin: 
Well, Arthur was obviously wrong, because Percy continued his upward 
rise even after he broke ties with his family. 

Bookworm:
Percy didn't continue to rise after breaking with his family. He 
broke with his family because of his promotion. He stayed in the 
position of Junior Assistant to the Minister during the whole book.

Percy acts pompously so much in the first books that his enthusiasm 
stands out in OoP. IMO, this is because he is excited that the 
Minister Himself recognizes Percy's worth when his own family 
doesn't. 

At the beginning of the Hearing (p138 US):
"`Very well,' said Fudge. `The accused being present ? finally ? let 
us begin. Are you ready?' he called down the row.
`Yes, sir,' said an eager voice Harry knew. Ron's brother Percy was 
sitting at the very end of the front bench."

In Dumbledore's office after the DA was caught by Umbridge (p619):
"`Weasley!' cried Fudge, now positively quivering with 
delight, `Weasley, have you written it all down, everything he's 
said, his confession, have you got it?'
`Yes, sir, I think so, sir!' said Percy eagerly, whose nose was 
splattered with ink from the speed of his note-taking.
`The bit about how he's been trying to build up an army against the 
Ministry, how he's been working to destabilize me?'
`Very well, then,' said Fudge, now radiant with glee. `Duplicate 
your notes, Weasley, and send a copy to the _Daily Prophet_ at once. 
If we send a fast owl we should make the morning edition!' Percy 
dashed from the room, slamming the door behind him, and Fudge turned 
back to Dumbledore."

If Percy were spying on Fudge, he didn't have to be quite so 
enthusiastic about it.  Remember how pompous he was when he first 
introduced himself to Harry, how Fred and George made fun of his 
formality when he saw Harry again in Diagon Ally, and the whole 
scene with the cauldron bottoms? Why not just continue to act the 
same way? He snubbed his father after the Hearing, and the times we 
see him with Fudge he is such a sycophant it is irritating. (Have we 
ever seen Percy "dash" before?) 

Pippin: 
And have you noticed that he seems to be able to anticipate Fudge's 
every move?

Bookworm:
It may not have been one of the Order members Kimberly mentioned, 
but that doesn't make Percy the source. OTOH, I do agree that 
Dumbledore has resources we don't know about yet.

Pippin:
What if Percy had second thoughts after the argument, found that his 
family had already left The Burrow, contacted Dumbledore to relay 
his apologies, and was recruited as a spy instead?

Bookworm:
Did the family leave the Burrow? Molly wasn't at Grimauld Place when 
the kids got there after Arthur's injury. Dumbledore hints that she 
was at the Burrow: "`But she may already know...that excellent clock 
of hers...'" (p471).

We know that Percy cares for his family (see his reaction to Ron's 
return after the second task in GoF) but, IMO, he is not close to 
any of them.  He feels unappreciated by them.  I can easily see how 
his stiff-necked pride and ambition would have him desperate for 
Fudge's approval. 

Ravenclaw Bookworm 





From vmonte at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 23 05:13:57 2004
From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 05:13:57 -0000
Subject: Snape, trying very hard not to smile? Or is he just allergic to cats?
In-Reply-To: <c3ocm9+c5ut@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3oh2l+lo56@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93716

Potioncat wrote:
As for Snape's smile during the examination of Mrs. Norris:  I can't 
work out whether Harry was wrong about the smile...was it some other 
expression?  Or whether, Snape like JKR doesn't like cats in the 
first place and was amused at the concern.

vmonte responds:

I always thought that Snape's reaction during the Mrs. Norris scene 
had more to do with Snape's sentiments over the cat's predicament 
rather than Filch's.  

Why was that cat hung upside down? Is there something Snape knows 
about that cat that we don't yet know? 

I do know that that cat is very nosey.  If I wanted to wander about 
the halls of the school without anyone finding out -- that cat would 
be the first thing on my list to go!

I can understand why Snape would find the situation funny.

vmonte




From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Tue Mar 23 05:45:55 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 05:45:55 -0000
Subject: Snape, trying very hard not to smile? Or is he just allergic to cats?
In-Reply-To: <c3oh2l+lo56@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3oiuj+jt6v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93717

> Potioncat wrote:
> As for Snape's smile during the examination of Mrs. Norris:  I 
can't 
> work out whether Harry was wrong about the smile...was it some 
other 
> expression?  Or whether, Snape like JKR doesn't like cats in the 
> first place and was amused at the concern.
> 
> vmonte responds:
> 
> I always thought that Snape's reaction during the Mrs. Norris scene 
> had more to do with Snape's sentiments over the cat's predicament 
> rather than Filch's.  
> 
> Why was that cat hung upside down? Is there something Snape knows 
> about that cat that we don't yet know? 
> 
> I do know that that cat is very nosey.  If I wanted to wander about 
> the halls of the school without anyone finding out -- that cat 
would 
> be the first thing on my list to go!
> 
> I can understand why Snape would find the situation funny.
> 
> vmonte

Sue chiming in really late to add:

I always felt that Snape knew exactly what was happening with the 
Chamber.  He is, after all, spending a lot of time in "Malfoy's 
lap".  I just thought he was amused that this is where the Basilisk 
started, with an obnoxious cat (I don't think any of them knew what 
was in the Chamber, not even Malfoy, BTW).  Snape is quite flattered 
at the young Malfoy's suggestion that he become headmaster after DD's 
departure.  He certainly didn't protest the idea or defend DD.

I also wonder if he was wearing a mask at the QWC, and flipping 
Muggles as an earlier post suggested.

Sue [waving to Carol and Susan and humming Tip Toe Through the Tulips 
quietly to herself ;)]





From greatelderone at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 23 05:51:51 2004
From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 05:51:51 -0000
Subject: Why didn't  Lily have to die?
In-Reply-To: <c3lces+fga7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3oj9n+vd0b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93718

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" 
<justcarol67 at y...> wrote:
> I don't think Voldemort's intentions matter. Certainly if he had
> killed Harry and then killed Lily, her death would not have been a
> sacrifice, regardless of his intentions. It would only have been a
> second murder. But IMO it's Lily's intentions that matter. It's her
> death that saves her son and her deliberate giving of her life that
> makes her death a sacrifice.

I diagree here. A sacrifice entails that you give up something 
inexchange for something of greater, equal or less value . Her 
getting scrapped next by Voldemort wouldn't have qualified her act as 
a sacrifice. 

Besides if we take this to the logical conclusion and assume that 
most mothers are as willing to die for their children, that AV is 
used frequently for murders and that wizard wars like what Voldemort 
waged were like every 50 year events then wouldn't it be common 
enough for Voldemort to have kept this charm in mind?




From greatelderone at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 23 06:18:05 2004
From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 06:18:05 -0000
Subject: Horse Feathers
In-Reply-To: <84A746DB-7C42-11D8-A72A-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com>
Message-ID: <c3okqt+m0a4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93719

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Barry Arrowsmith 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
> We are told that Fawkes has given just two feathers.
> Not told where or when mind, that would be telling us too much.

They could have been feathers used by fawkes for delivering messages 
like in ootp where two feathers are used to deliver a warning to 
dumbledore and later a message to Sirius. Hmmm perhaps Rowling is 
sowing the seeds for a future conflict.

> 
> Olivander ends up with both.
> He incorporates them into two wands.
> Voldy has one, Harry gets the other.
> Sheer chance of course.
> And if you believe that, you'll believe anything.

I really don't understand what you're getting at.

> It stretches credulity just that little bit too far to accept that 
it's 
> all a coincidence.

It's not a coincidence. It's destiny in some ways.
 
> The odds of the coincidence that we are presented with in PS/SS are 
> enormous, almost incalculable, even given that Harry has been at 
the 
> receiving end of one of the wands before. To think that Voldys 
attack 
> would influence Harry's choice ten years later is to argue that 
wands 
> can impart 'personality' to persons other than their users. I 
suppose 
> that some may say that it's the Voldy part of Harry that is 
influenced. 
> To do so is to presume that  Harry is more Voldy than Harry - now 
> there's a pleasant thought!

How so? Perhaps the wand recognized the piece of Voldy in Harry. It 
has nothing to do with who has the dominant psyche. Or perhaps it 
went to Harry because he was the chosen of prophecy or possibly 
because Harry like Voldemort was going to do great things and the 
wand is made for such a person.

> Time and again it seems that DD knows too much, that he's able to 
> anticipate events, take corrective measures.
> Is  this  another example?
> 
> Kneasy

I don't understand what you are implying. Mind elaborating your point?




From gbannister10 at aol.com  Tue Mar 23 07:57:31 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 07:57:31 -0000
Subject: Underage Magic during war & at the MoM
In-Reply-To: <c3ns15+uq1v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3oqlb+8e7u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93720

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Arya" <dequardo at w...> wrote:

Arya:
> I think I have to disagree.  There's more to it than just 
monitoring 
> an area.  I also think there's something more complex to the 
> monitoring because it knows when the magic is done before a 
muggle.  
> IIRC in CoS, it mentions the business deal people Vernon had over 
for 
> dinner as being witnesses to the Hover Charm.  In OotP it also says 
> the Patronus Charm is done in front of a muggle (Dudley--who I 
don't 
> think should count because duh--he obviously knows Harry is a 
wizard!)

Geoff:
The Ministry don't know that Harry knows that Dudley knows that Harry 
is a wizard do they?

The difference in wording of the letters is interesting; Carol's 
reference to the use of the passive points that up.

Both letters (COS and OOTP) begin with the phrase "We have received 
intelligence that....." but COS continues: "...was used at your 
esidence this evening..." while the OOTP letter goes on: "...you 
performed the Patronus Charm..."

The COS letter is very civil servant-ish in its wording: "We would 
also ask you to remember that and magical activity which risks notice 
by members of the non-magical community (Muggles) is a serious 
offence...." whereas the OOTP letter is much more threatening: "The 
severity of this breach of the Decree for the Reasonable Restriction 
of Underage Sorcery has resulted.."

It has only just occurred to me on re-reading this that in our 
discussions on young wizards, it is a decree for the "reasonable" 
restriction and not total restriction.

Canon references for the letters are:
(COS "Dobby's Warning" p.21 UK edition)
(OOTP "A Peck of Owls" p.29 UK edition)

Geoff
(In passing, on the subject of "Horse Feathers", I think that I am of 
a similar age to Kneasy but, as a native UK English speaker, I have 
never heard the expression) 




From jhnbwmn at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 23 07:57:25 2004
From: jhnbwmn at hotmail.com (johnbowman19)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 07:57:25 -0000
Subject: Harry's impact on the teaching staff of Hogwarts
Message-ID: <c3oql5+u176@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93721

Hello all
Just something that poked into my mind while rereading OOTP. When 
Umbridge is making her inspections on teachers she asks the teaches 
how long they have worked at Hogwarts. Both Snape and Trelawney were 
appointed to positions because of Harry. Trelawney got the job 
because of her prediction about Harry, and Snape got his job because 
he passed information to the Order about the DE's and Voldemort 
before Voldemort was killed. I assume that Snape is the one that 
warned DD to put the Potters into protection. So Harry has already 
been involved in 2 teaching changes before he even attended 
Hogwarts. Also there is the DADA teaches Harry has had a part in 
make leave the school. Quirrel died because Harry made Voldemort 
leave his body, Lockhart left cause he was trying to make Harry lose 
his memory, Lupin left because Harry made a fool of Snape (and as a 
result Snape told everyone Lupin was a werewolf), Moody/Crouch got 
kissed because Harry survived Voldemort and Moody tried to him, and 
finally Umbridge who left Hogwarts for many reasons (which include 
sending dementors to attack Harry, and because she did not believe 
Harry about Voldemort (and made a fool of herself because of it)). 
So if Harry has already been involved in 7 teaching changes how many 
more can we expect? How much influence has Harry had on the entire 
WW already? When one thinks about how pretty much everyone who is 
magical in Europe goes to 3 schools, it can be seen that Harry has 
changed the world constantly for the last 15 years even without 
trying. All those people who came through Hogwarts and attended 
Snape's Trelawney's and Quirrel's lessons lives have been changed in 
a way that we cannot really comprehend yet. Did Harry change 
Hogwarts for the better or for the worse? What do you guys think? 
Was it worth Snape making people's lives miserable all those years? 

John who wishes he knew how much pain Snape has caused over the 
years. 




From rorogersmc at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 23 04:28:13 2004
From: rorogersmc at yahoo.com (rorogersmc)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 04:28:13 -0000
Subject: Seeing Sirius Again (was: Re: Sirius/Tonks)
Message-ID: <c3oect+46s0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93722

Snip of Kathy's post:
>>In the most resent interview with Jkr, someone had asked if Sirius came 
back what *form would he be in? Jkr said she couldn't possibly answer that 
question for fear of incriminating herself. Incriminate: to provide 
evidence of somebody's guilt or make somebody appear guilty of a crime or 
mistake.

What is she guilty of?


Kathy(snow15145) -who hopes she is guilty of killing Tonks instead of 
Sirius.<<



Rachael Replies:
Sorry, but I agree with others who have stated that Sirius IS dead.  Don't we wish he 
could come back, but I highly doubt he will be back in any living form, or as a ghost.  
Nearly Headless Nick sadly tries to tell Harry that wizards don't come back when 
they've passed on.  However, the answer JKR gives to the question of *what form 
would Sirius be in if he comes back* does make it sound like he will show up again.  I 
would be interested in any ideas about how else Sirius might show up again 
(excluding really being alive, or a ghost). 
 Here's a possibility I've thought of.  Bellatrix cast the spell that killed Sirius, so if 
Priori Incantatem happened to her wand, it is possible that a form of Sirius would 
come out, just like Harry's parents in GOF.  I wonder if there are other ways to initiate 
Priori Incantatem besides brother wands fighting against each other, and if so, will it 
occur in books 6 or 7.

What do you think?  A future shadow/echo of Sirius happening?  Or maybe, if Harry 
obtains Bellatrix's wand he could initiate Priori Incantatem when ever he wanted to 
see Sirius.

Rachael, whose finally glad to post this idea which has been floating in her head for a 
while.





From aaoconnor2002 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 23 07:44:13 2004
From: aaoconnor2002 at yahoo.com (aaoconnor2002)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 07:44:13 -0000
Subject: Horse Feathers
In-Reply-To: <84A746DB-7C42-11D8-A72A-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com>
Message-ID: <c3opsd+cbj4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93723

Kneasy wrote:

> We are told that Fawkes has given just two feathers.
> Not told where or when mind, that would be telling us too much.
> 
> Olivander ends up with both.
> He incorporates them into two wands.
> Voldy has one, Harry gets the other.
> Sheer chance of course.
> And if you believe that, you'll believe anything.
> 
> It stretches credulity just that little bit too far to accept that 
it's 
> all a coincidence.

One other piece of information that we are not privy to is whether 
Voldemort's wand chose him or was chosen.  We are told that the wand 
chooses the wizard but we are given examples of people using wands 
that belonged to others.  Ron and Neville both have or have had hand-
me-down wands. I could see someone obsessed with immortality being 
drawn to the idea of a phoenix feather wand.  A sufficiently arrogant 
wizard, confident of his own power, wouldn't be too concerned about 
not having the "right" wand.

My theory is that Voldemort chose the phoenix feather wand knowing 
that it came from Fawkes.  Fawkes then gave a second feather in an 
effort to combat the first wand.  Since the second feather was given 
for the express purpose of fighting Voldemort it was drawn to the 
person who Voldemort had marked (chosen) as his enemy and his equal.  
Not quite a coincidence at all if you think about it that way.

This thread also brings up another thought for discussion.  What do 
you think happened with the third feather that we know Fawkes has 
released?  

       "There was a flash of flame in the very middle of the office,
    leaving behind a single golden feather that floated gently to the
    floor.
       "It is Fawkes's warning," said Dumbledore, catching the 
    feather as it fell."   (OotP US edition, Chapter 22, page 474)

Is there now the possibility of a third Fawkes wand coming into play?

Audrey





From greatelderone at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 23 09:08:54 2004
From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 09:08:54 -0000
Subject: Horse Feathers
In-Reply-To: <c3opsd+cbj4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3our6+i274@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93724

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "aaoconnor2002" 
<aaoconnor2002 at y...> wrote:
 
> Is there now the possibility of a third Fawkes wand coming into 
play?
> 
> Audrey

Yes who broke their father's wand while fighting in the ministry and 
who was another potential candidate for the prophecy before that 
Halloween Night?

And there's possibly even a fourth since another was used to carry a 
message to sirus. However I think it's more likely that they're set 
up for a future conflict.




From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Tue Mar 23 09:23:29 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 09:23:29 -0000
Subject: Horse Feathers
In-Reply-To: <c3npv9+jbej@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3ovmh+41lq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93725

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" <gbannister10 at a...> wrote:

> Sorry but I must be being a little thick... Fawkes is a phoenix. how 
> did the horse get in here? Or do Threstrals give feathers?

Ah, Geoff. You're obviously not an afficianado of those old 'B' films
that dominated the Saturday morning matinee way back when - or
did  you never indulge in the 'tanner rush' to see the old Flash 
Gordon and Hopalong Cassidy serials?

'Horse feathers' was quite frequently used as a way  of expressing
disbelief  or incredulity -  equivalent to our 'pull the other one'.

Kneasy
Regressing into childhood




From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Tue Mar 23 09:47:34 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 23 Mar 2004 10:47:34 +0100
Subject: Horse Feathers
Message-ID: <20040323094734.EBB22A7E57@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 93726

> Audrey
> Is there now the possibility of a third Fawkes wand coming into play?

As I've written before, Fawkes is dropping feathers "all over the place" e.g.

"Its eyes were dull and even as Harry watched, a couple more feathers fell out of its tail." CoS, "Polyjuice Potion" p.205

So I still think the wand feather must be "donated" under special circumstances from the phoenix at its best. Also - since Olivander bases on these three wand-cores - I guess there must be more feather-giving phoenixes around, otherwise such wands would be extremem rarity, which should be noted in the books.

I can't see anything strange that two wands, even crafted at the same time were sold over fifty years apart (I think it was Tom Riddle who bought the wand, not Thingy). The shop with such a history and with such specific clientele may ery well stack wands made even hundreds years ago, which hasn't yet found "their" wizard. 

That its Harry who bought Thingy's brother wand? Fate is guiding hero's hand, m'dears...

Cheers, Viridis

________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!



From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Tue Mar 23 10:03:54 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 10:03:54 -0000
Subject: Horse Feathers
In-Reply-To: <c3nl4s+aopq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3p22a+i3n3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93727

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eustace_Scrubb" <dk59us at y...> wrote:

> Help! Help! I'm being repressed! Oh, dead giveaway! Did you hear that?
> That's what I've been on about!
> 
> Seriously though in message 93421, I wondered about this very
> question.  But I'm not sure we even know enough to know _how_ big a
> coincidence it is.  (See also my followup essage 93469)  How many
> phoenixes are there?  Who decides they should "give" a feather?  How
> long has Dumbledore been Fawkes' human?  Maybe Fawkes gave one feather
> to Godric Gryffindor and the other to Salazar Slytherin.  Ollivander's
> has been in business since 382 BC, after all.
> 
> Speculation is definitely warranted...maybe even conspiracy theories.

Oops! Apologies if I trod on your toes. 
It's annoying when you post and then some other insensitive beast
dives in with another thread on the same subject. Seems to be getting
more prevalent lately, I've noticed. Sorry, it was unintentional.
I started musing about it while putting together my TBAY piece at the
weekend. The wand conflict seemed so convenient that suspicions 
were aroused.

The major problem to resolving this one is lack of information - again!
JKR is just too damn good  at offering  clues or connections that whet
the appetite and then whipping away the menu by not  allowing her
characters to ask the obvious questions. Anyone would think she was
doing it deliberately! Surely not.

A long time ago (oooh, back last summer, which seems like years), I 
posited that the current Voldy War is yet another episode in an ages
long battle involving some of the same characters (re-incarnated)
slugging it out over the centuries. Not only the cast but also the
events are replayed. And they will keep on repeating with minor
changes until one side or the other gets it right. This would mean
that  DD is a re-incarnation of Godric Gryffindor and Voldy of Salazar
Slytherin. (Think an extended version of Ken Grimwood's 'Replay' or
even 'Groundhog Day' if  you must.) This would help explain DD's
apparent cold-bloodedness - Harry is a transient character in a
conflict that DD has been fighting over generations. And he is only
important to the extent that he might (or might not) be a major
piece in the game.

This theory would explain why DD  seems to be able to anticipate
events and plan counter-moves before the event. The only problem
is  that there's  no evidence to support it!  But it does give us a big
stage to play on -  lots of scope for speculation.

Kneasy                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              









From christophernuttall at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 23 10:49:04 2004
From: christophernuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 10:49:04 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Underage Magic during war & at the MoM
References: <c3ns15+uq1v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <BAY16-DAV21DyseVwrb000005f6@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93728

Arya:" Then how would you explain how Tonks was able to use 'Scourgify' to 
clean Hedwig's cage and 'Pack!' to help Harry pack his trunk?  Moody 
also used the Disillusionment Charm on Harry in Privet Drive before 
they left."

Me: Perhaps the system does not track fully-grown-up wizards, just creatures or children.  I mean, there was no report of apparating at PD in OOP, was there?  

Anouther possibility is that the Order members can shield their spells in a watched area.  

Chris

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Tue Mar 23 10:59:11 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 10:59:11 -0000
Subject: Horse Feathers
In-Reply-To: <c3okqt+m0a4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3p59v+p98b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93729

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatelderone" <greatelderone at y...> wrote:
> 
> I don't understand what you are implying. Mind elaborating your point?

The idea that 'the wand chooses the wizard' is true only to a certain
extent. It would be more accurate to say that 'a wand from a selection
made by Ollivander chooses the wizard'. Harry did not  have a free run
of the stockroom, free to choose as whim, instinct or intuition took him.

Think stage magicians - "pick a card, any card and I'll tell you what 
you've got." 

Why  would Ollie think that the counterpart wand to the one that killed
his parents and scarred him be just the wand for Harry? The more likely
thought would be that it would be animical towards Harry, or that Harry
would recoil from it. Sort of magical antigen-antibody reaction. Unless
DD decided that Harry eeded all the protection he could  get and a
conflicting wand might come in very handy some day.

DD  knows Voldy is Tom Riddle; Ollivander knows every wand he's sold.
Put the two together and a wand with certain protective properties can 
be contructed, ready and waiting when Harry comes into the shop.
All the rest is stage dressing.

Kneasy





From kashelkar at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 23 09:51:40 2004
From: kashelkar at yahoo.com (kashelkar)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 09:51:40 -0000
Subject: Apparating into the Ministry...
In-Reply-To: <c3mj3q+tnj3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3p1bc+h361@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93730

Catherine said:  --snipped--
> 
> I agree with Carol that the DE's themselves did not enter the 
> Ministry until the last moment .....
Bellatrix says that LV 
> didn't want to "risk" going into the MoM and being seen.
> So perhaps 
> the DE's were not entirely sure that it would be possible to get
> as  far as they did without raising any alarm at all. It's one thing
> for them to risk being seen, especially if they think they can 
escape, but not LV, who is supposedly still disembodied. Also, as LV 
enjoys the psychological side of torture as much as the physical, 
presumably he rather likes the idea of Harry being his own undoing.


kashelkar's reply:
 
 Here I'd like to clarify certain things:  The entire OOP book 
 revolves around the prophecy.  The plot involving the prophecy and 
 Voldy's desire to capture it, is the backbone of the book.  Hence 
it must be made clear beyond any reasonable doubts that it was 
 IMPOSSIBLE for Voldy (for some reason or other) to go and grab the 
 prophecy himself at any point of time.  However, this is not very 
 clear in the book.
 
 I don't agree with Catherine's statement:  "...So perhaps the DE's 
 were not entirely sure that it would be possible to get as far as 
 they did without raising any alarm at all. ....."  

Kashelkar's reply:
 
Obviously, if the DEs were discovered entering the MoM, the 
security there would be tightened, and even Voldy won't be able to 
break-in afterwards.  So, this was their first and last chance, and 
hence the DEs must have done a lot of homework on this.  Informations 
such as anti-burglary spells put on the MoM, the security persons, 
their habits etc etc. had to be gathered and analysed properly. 
Obviously, no one would be able to break into the office of a 
ministry as and when he wishes.  And here we also must assume this, 
that the break-in at the MoM was carefully planned and executed by 
Voldy and DEs. And therefore, I must say that it was most simple for 
Voldy to plan his own journey to and fro MoM, rather than plan HP's 
journey.  In execution of any plan there are numerous things which 
can go wrong. However, when you yourself are a part to the execution, 
you can keep atleast some of the things under control.  (eg.  what if 
Harry couldn't get any transport?? what if some professor at Hogwarts 
 stopped him??  What if Snape was able to contact him with the news 
that Sirius is safe?? What if he could not escape from Umbridge?? 
 What if Hermione, after all, was able to contain him, and he 
decided not to go???  What if he met with an accident on his way and 
could not make it to the MoM??? There are so many ifs and buts...  
All these (and many more) questions must get the right answers for 
Voldy's plan to succeed and he doesn't have any influence over these 
events at all.  If Harry doesn't go to MoM that time, he'd soon come 
to know abt the reality, and then in future he'd never react to 
such 'visions'in haste.)
> 
 And hence, I feel that it was most natural for Voldy to plan the 
 break-in at MoM in such a manner that He himself would be able to 
go there and grab the prophecy.  I don't think that this was a 
difficult task, a little more caution, a little more carefulness and 
he gets what he desires.  He could disguise himself in different ways 
for this (invisibility cloak, polyjuice potion etc).  Bringing HP to 
MoM to do all this looks highly far-fetched.  Once you think this 
way, the climax of the book is not fun to read at all (unlike CoS, 
where the plot is very convincing and the climax is fun to read again 
and again).
 
Once his job is done, then however, Voldy may show HP the 'vision' 
and see if he really turns up.  In this case, he can arrange to 
inform/ alarm the MoM abt HP entering MoM illegaly and get him 
caught.  Which should please his saddist soul.....






From kashelkar at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 23 10:02:41 2004
From: kashelkar at yahoo.com (kashelkar)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 10:02:41 -0000
Subject: why doesn't Voldy use a time-turner???
Message-ID: <c3p201+11273@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93731

Why Voldy doesn't use a time turner to visit the history and do 
things he wanted to do for so long??  like, maybe killing HP? or 
maybe even listen to the prophecy (he could use some disguise for 
that)?  Alternatively, he could command one of his DEs do such things 
for him.





From eloiseherisson at aol.com  Tue Mar 23 11:45:58 2004
From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 06:45:58 EST
Subject: Underage Magic during war & at the MoM
Message-ID: <d7.6752fb6.2d917d76@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93732

Arya:
>>In OotP it also says 
> > the Patronus Charm is done in front of a muggle (Dudley--who I don't 
> > think should count because duh--he obviously knows Harry is a 
> wizard!)

Geoff:
> The Ministry don't know that Harry knows that Dudley knows that Harry 
> is a wizard do they?

But *do* we know that the Ministry don't know that Harry knows that Dudley 
knows that Harry is a wizard? (Sorry. <g>)

I'd never thought about that before, about the *Dudley* being the Muggle 
concerned. Surely the MoM must realise that the families of Muggle born wizards 
know that they are wizards? Can they really expect the Dursleys to keep such 
knowledge secret from Dudley?  

Accusing Harry of the offence of using magic in front of this particular 
Muggle in the first place is surely related to Fudge and Umbridge's unwillingness 
to hear evidence in his defence: they are simply using the law to try to 
achieve their own ends. In the same way Sirius never received justice although his 
innocence could easily have been proved. Contrariwise, the law can be 
conveniently forgotten when it suits: Harry *wasn't* charged with performing magic in 
front of a Muggle when he blew up Aunt Maud. 

~Eloise
Who also wonders why there was no immediate consequence to the Ton Tongue 
Toffee incident, which *was* a piece of underage magic performed on a Muggle in a 
house which seems closely monitored. 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Tue Mar 23 11:59:54 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 23 Mar 2004 12:59:54 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Underage Magic during war & at the MoM
Message-ID: <20040323115954.BB2F6A7DD9@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 93733

> ~Eloise
> Who also wonders why there was no immediate consequence to the Ton Tongue
> 
> Toffee incident, which *was* a piece of underage magic performed on a
> Muggle in a house which seems closely monitored. 

Toffe incident supports the "wand tracing theory". Besides there was a Ministry Official there and from the ofice quite suited to deal with such cases. The incident was also not big enough to attract much attention (like regurgitating toilets fo example).
And last, but not least - as it was said before - law can be stretched a bit, this or that way.

Cheers, Viridis
________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!



From kking0731 at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 23 12:08:00 2004
From: kking0731 at hotmail.com (Kathy King)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 07:08:00 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius/Tonks
Message-ID: <Sea2-F54OYqBUbUc77l0000d2aa@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93734



Kathy (me) wrote:
> > One of the most confusing statements in Oop, for me, was when
>Bellatrix says that she was busy fighting the Animagus Black. (pg.
>812) Well, Black's animagus form was a big black dog and we know she
>was not fighting a big  black dog. So what did she mean by animagus?


Allies wrote:
>I took that to mean, "I was busy fighting Black, who is an
>Animagus."  Not that being an animagus would make him a better
>fighter, but just as a description of him.  It would have been like
>saying, "I was fighting the child Harry Potter."

Kathy's thought's:
That is exactly what I always assumed it meant, but it still bothered me 
until I looked at it in the  following manner. Although I have no proof, it 
still makes a little more sence to me that Bella is referring to Black's 
Animagus as a form not his own. So, instead of Bella just saying I was busy 
fighting Black, she was basically saying I was fighting someone who looked 
like Black.(the Tonks theory grew from there) Even if it may not have been 
Tonks, I still feel that it wasn't Sirius (and not because I want him back 
so badly, although that would be a plus)

Allie wrote:

>I do like the theory though, although I'm pretty sure JKR has said
>characters don't come back once they're dead.

Kathy's thought's:

I believe Jkr said that a character doesnt come back if they are "properly" 
dead. What that means, properly, I'm not sure. But when she said in the 
latest interview in response to what form Sirius would be in if he returned, 
she said she couldn't possibly answer that without incriminating herself. 
She could have just replied with she couldn't answer that question, but she 
added the most suspitious statement of self incrimination.
Again, this leaves the field wide open to speculation.

Kathy

_________________________________________________________________
Get rid of annoying pop-up ads with the new MSN Toolbar  FREE! 
http://clk.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200414ave/direct/01/




From Elvishooked at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 23 12:26:24 2004
From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 12:26:24 -0000
Subject: Snape and the Order
Message-ID: <c3padg+c5be@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93735

Yesterday a friend and I got to talking about Snape and when he 
actually joined the Order. Suddenly both of us had doubts about that. 
Help anyone?
Was Snape a member of the Order during the First War leading up to 
Voldemorts downfall? 
Or did every member of the Order at that time at least know about 
Snape switching sides and acting as a spy for the Order?
Or didn't Snape become a member till after Voldemorts disappearing?
Im confused - and I don't want to be....

Inge 





From jamess at climaxgroup.com  Tue Mar 23 12:32:32 2004
From: jamess at climaxgroup.com (James Sharman)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 12:32:32 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Seeing Sirius Again (was: Re: Sirius/Tonks)
Message-ID: <495A161B83F7544AA943600A98833B5303554E14@mimas.fareham.climax.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 93736


Rachael Said:  (SubQuote)
Priori Incantatem happened to her wand, it is possible that a form of Sirius
would 
come out, just like Harry's parents in GOF.  I wonder if there are other
ways to initiate 
Priori Incantatem besides brother wands fighting against each other, and if
so, will it 
occur in books 6 or 7.

James Replies:
This is possible, the Priori Incantatem spell can be used directly on a wand
to make it regurgitate. Remember the scene in GoF where the spell was used
to show the after image of the dark mark.




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue Mar 23 12:41:21 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 12:41:21 -0000
Subject: Snape, trying very hard not to smile? Or is he just allergic to cats?
In-Reply-To: <c3of9d+cvll@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3pb9h+sb0q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93737


.snipping Carol's first post<
> > Potioncat responded:
> > I came to the conclusion that Snape went to Filch for help rather 
> > than to Poppy because either he hadn't told DD he was watching 
> > Quirrell or that he wanted Quirrell to think he was working for
> himself. 

> Carol again:
> I agree that Snape probably didn't know that Voldemort was right 
there
> inside Quirrell's turban, but I think Quirrell must have known that
> Snape's loyalties lay with Dumbledore, in which case loyalty to
> "Dumbledore or me" wouldn't make any sense. 
>snip<
 Since JKR was
> setting up Snape as a red herring (the apparent villain) in the 
first
> book, she kept the dialogue deliberately vague, so I can't back up
> what I'm saying with quotations. I'm only presenting the view that
> makes most sense to me.
>snip<


Potioncat:
You have a good point, afterall, Quirrell does explain most of 
Snape's behavior in that final scene with Harry. "Snape didn't trust 
me, Snape was saving you, Snape made himself unpopular".... So he 
must have understood Snape's motives all along.  And like Carol said, 
JKR was setting Snape up.  Having him go to Filch rather than Poppy 
made his actions look more suspicious....but why did he do it?  (I 
know which one I'd rather have tending a wound!) 

So, he must have been working on his own without DD's knowldege (a 
lot like Harry, isn't he?) If he went to Poppy, DD would find out.  
(Does Snape really think he can keep this sort of thing from DD?)  
But why then did he choose the teachers' lounge?  Wouldn't his own 
office be a better place?

Right, I've certainly cleared that up!
Potioncat






From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue Mar 23 13:00:05 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 13:00:05 -0000
Subject: Snape and the Order
In-Reply-To: <c3padg+c5be@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3pccl+4874@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93738

Inge wrote:
>snip<
> Was Snape a member of the Order during the First War leading up to 
> Voldemorts downfall? 
> Or did every member of the Order at that time at least know about 
> Snape switching sides and acting as a spy for the Order?
> Or didn't Snape become a member till after Voldemorts disappearing?
> Im confused - and I don't want to be....


Potioncat:
I think this question will get a lot of answers! All of them 
different  I've seen a very good post that suggests Snape actually 
came to DD witin days (or even hours) of the attack on the Potters.

I tend to think he had been working for DD longer than that.  I don't 
think canon gives us a good idea.  We do know that someone in the 
Order had been spying for LV for about a year before the Potters were 
attacked, but that doesn't reflect on Snape's tenure. 

It also isn't certain if Snape came on Hogwarts staff before October 
or after, but I tend to think it was after.  I don't think we have 
canon on that either, just different ways of interpreting Snape's 
answer as to how long he had been teaching.

I re-read your question and it was specific to the Order.  I don't 
know if DD let anyone in the Order know that Snape was working for 
him back in the first war.  So I don't know if he would be considered 
a member back then.  

BTW, in PoA, does Lupin even know that Snape had worked for DD in the 
old days?  Afterall, Black didn't know Snape had been a DE.

Potioncat who may have confused things even more




From Elvishooked at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 23 13:18:06 2004
From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 13:18:06 -0000
Subject: Snape and the Order
In-Reply-To: <c3pccl+4874@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3pdee+2kg7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93739

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at m...> 
wrote:

Potioncat:

snip-snup

>>>I re-read your question and it was specific to the Order.  I don't 
know if DD let anyone in the Order know that Snape was working for 
him back in the first war.  So I don't know if he would be considered 
a member back then.  
BTW, in PoA, does Lupin even know that Snape had worked for DD in the 
old days?  Afterall, Black didn't know Snape had been a DE.
Potioncat who may have confused things even more<<<

Actually now that you mention Lupin - he was the main reason I asked 
the question about Snape in the first place. Do we know if Lupin knew 
about Snape being a DE during the first war? Or didn't he know 
anything about Snapes role till the Order got together again at the 
beginning of OOTP (with Snape as new member? with Snape as a member 
from the first time around?).
You also mention Black. I don't remember the passage in which he 
states (or someone else states) that he didn't know about Snape being 
a DE. Didn't he know? 
At the end of GOF Sirius doesn't seem all THAT surprised that 
Dumbledore asks the two of them to put old hatred aside and work 
together side by side.
Im still confused.
Inge




> Inge wrote:
> >snip<
> > Was Snape a member of the Order during the First War leading up 
to 
> > Voldemorts downfall? 
> > Or did every member of the Order at that time at least know about 
> > Snape switching sides and acting as a spy for the Order?
> > Or didn't Snape become a member till after Voldemorts 
disappearing?
> > Im confused - and I don't want to be....
> 





From annabellejane97 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 23 13:28:46 2004
From: annabellejane97 at yahoo.com (Anna)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 13:28:46 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment
Message-ID: <c3pe2e+dvlr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93740

In OoP, when Harry breaks into Umbridge's office to talk to Sirius 
about what he had seen in the pensieve, Lupin  says:

"Harry, there is nothing so important as you learning Occulemency!" 
said Lupin sternly.  Do you understand me?  Nothing!" 

When I reread  OoP, reading that line made me wonder if, on a 
subconscious level,  Lupin  harbors any resentment toward Harry 
because Harry's failure to learn Occulemency ultimately lead to 
Sirius' death.  Sirius was the last remaining tie to his days at 
Hogwarts, which (as we learn in PoA) were the best times of his 
life.  Losing Sirius must have devastated Lupin. 

Sorry if this has already been discussed.  If it has, can someone 
tell me where I can find it.  I did a search, but came up with 
nothing.

Thanks, Anna.





From eloiseherisson at aol.com  Tue Mar 23 13:52:48 2004
From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 08:52:48 EST
Subject: Snape, trying very hard not to smile? Or is he just allergic to cats?
Message-ID: <cb.3ebe4fab.2d919b30@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93741

> Carol:
> I think there's definitely a difference in rank (wizard vs. Squib,
> teacher vs. caretaker) that Snape may subtly exploit when he's not
> angry about having his office broken into at three in the morning, and
> there's definitely a difference in their preferred methods of
> discipline (Filch has no subtlety. He's all for medieval torture
> chambers rather than sarcasm, deducting points, and detention.)
> There's a huge difference in intellectual and educational level that I
> think would prevent them from being close friends, but there is or was
> also a common bond of trust in Dumbledore that made them allies in the
> first three or four books.


Eloise:
Well, you know, I'm sorry, but much as it pains me to say it, I think that 
probably Snape is simply using Filch. As you say, there's a huge difference in 
intellectual and educational level as well as in status between the two. I 
think the thing that makes them allies is less their common bond of trust in 
Dumbledore as their common dislike of and contempt for students and (later) of 
Harry in particular. Snape dislikes them because they're stupid dunderheads, Filch 
dislikes them because they set off Dungbombs and drip mud all over his clean 
floors. We know from PS/SS that Filch was under orders to tell Snape if any 
students were wandering the corridors at night. Filch is an extra set of eyes 
and ears for Snape (in fact with Mrs Norris, two sets of eyes and ears which 
again begs the very question under discussion here) and Snape gives validation to 
Filch's snooping and persecution of the students even if, as you point out, 
his own methods are somewhat different. Not that I think dear Severus is 
*terribly* subtle in his methods, just less physical in his brand of cruelty. I'm 
afraid he *is* a bit of a sadist.

Carol:
> But, as you suggest, Filch's devotion to Umbridge in OoP while Snape
> (as far as we can tell) remains loyal to Dumbledore is a definite
> parting of the ways. 


Eloise:
Yes. Again, he is relating to someone who shares his sadistic dislike of 
students and, moreover, his preferred methods of dealing with them. I doubt his 
loyalty or motivation goes deeper than that.


Carol:
>I wonder if Filch will prove a traitor in Book 6
> or 7. Fortunately, he doesn't seem very bright, but he's sadistic, and
> he could prove dangerous in his way.


Eloise:
You don't need to be bright to be dangerous. The fact that he's dense but 
sadistic could easily make him a weapon in the wrong hands.


vmonte:
> > I do know that that cat is very nosey.  If I wanted to wander about 
> > the halls of the school without anyone finding out -- that cat would 
> > be the first thing on my list to go!
> > 
> > I can understand why Snape would find the situation funny.


Eloise:
Well, yes. If that were the case.  As I pointed out above, though, in a way, 
Mrs Norris was an extra pair of eyes for Snape. We know Filch was co-operating 
with Snape in PS/SS. We know less about what was going on between them in CoS 
but we have no concrete grounds for thinking that he wasn't. 

I think he's amused because Harry *is* in the wrong place at the wrong time 
and he hopes to take advantage of it. Perhaps he's also amused because he's 
standing in Lockhart's office with portraits wearing curlers dodging out of 
sight. He can witness Lockhart making a prat of himself and exploit the situation 
to his own advantage against Harry. Or so he hopes. 

The smile he is trying to suppress develops, once he starts to speak, into a 
sneer:

>>"Potter and his friends may have simply been in the wrong place at the
wrong time," he said, a slight sneer curling his mouth as though he
doubted it.<<

and from there into a full blown smile as he finally catches Harry et al out:

>>"Without any supper?" said Snape, a triumphant smile flickering across
his gaunt face. "I didn't think ghosts provided food fit for living people
at their parties."

"We weren't hungry," said Ron loudly as his stomach gave a huge
rumble.

Snape's nasty smile widened.

"I suggest, Headmaster, that Potter is not being entirely truthful," he
said. "It might be a good idea if he were deprived of certain privileges
until he is ready to tell us the whole story. I personally feel he should
be taken off the Gryffindor Quidditch team until he is ready to be
honest." <<

The smile disappears as soon as Dumbledore refuses to blame Harry and Snape 
and Filch are once more united:

>>Snape looked furious. So did Filch.<<

So in summary, I think that Snape doesn't care about Filch or any pain he 
might be in but simply uses him when it suits him. His hatred for Harry far 
outweighs any loyalty he might feel to his ally against studenthood in general. The 
smile which is being suppressed is merely an anticipation that which 
accompanies his attempts to get Harry into trouble.


Sue chiming in really late to add:
> 
> I always felt that Snape knew exactly what was happening with the 
> Chamber.  He is, after all, spending a lot of time in "Malfoy's 
> lap". 


Eloise:
That's a reference to Sirius' taunt about his being Malfoy's lap dog, yes?

I have yet to be convinced about exactly what Snape's relationship with 
Malfoy is. I am far from convinced (based on the "sudden movement" in GoF) that at 
this point he *knew* that Malfoy was a fellow DE. If he knew all along of the 
plot and that this was a basilisk, then he doesn't seem to have shared that 
knowledge with Dumbledore, but then you aren't entirely convinced of his 
loyalty, are you? ;-)

Sue:
> I just thought he was amused that this is where the Basilisk 
> started, with an obnoxious cat (I don't think any of them knew what 
> was in the Chamber, not even Malfoy, BTW).  

OK. So he didn't know *exactly* what was going on.

>Snape is quite flattered 
> at the young Malfoy's suggestion that he become headmaster after DD's 
> departure.  He certainly didn't protest the idea or defend DD.

Eloise:
Could the smirk be because this was confirmation that he had Lucius Malfoy 
exactly where he wanted him (is *Lucius* actually the lap dog?) If he wants to 
maintain his reputation amongst the Voldemort supporters, then it's to his 
advantage to play the card that Draco put into his hand.

Sue:
> I also wonder if he was wearing a mask at the QWC, and flipping 
> Muggles as an earlier post suggested.

Eloise:
Err...wwwhat? <splutters uncontrollably>
I didn't hear that right, yes?
Who suggested that? 
I'm speechless!

Well, if he's been playing double agent, then now I think about it, then yes, 
he could have been among the DEs there. But I don't believe that all the DEs 
know each others' identities, so the group of them there may not even have 
known who they all were, which means he needn't have been there to bolster his 
own cover. And I simply do not believe that he'd indulge in Muggle baiting, 
despite what he called Lily in the Pensieve. He's sadistic, but not that sadistic. 
That is to say, I think that sort of thing is beneath him and that he 
wouldn't regard it as fun, but as pointless, childish and the sort of thing destined 
to give a good Death Eater a bad reputation. ;-)


> Potioncat:
<snip> Having him go to Filch rather than Poppy 
> made his actions look more suspicious....but why did he do it?  (I 
> know which one I'd rather have tending a wound!) 
> 
> So, he must have been working on his own without DD's knowldege (a 
> lot like Harry, isn't he?) If he went to Poppy, DD would find out.  
> (Does Snape really think he can keep this sort of thing from DD?)  
> But why then did he choose the teachers' lounge?  Wouldn't his own 
> office be a better place?

I don't think it's to do with fear that Mme Pomprey will report what's he's 
up to. Mme Pomfrey isn't one of Dumbledore's inner circle. At the end of GoF, 
although she hears the same revelations as Fudge (including that Snape was a 
DE), Dumbledore is very careful to make sure that she is well out of earshot 
before allowing Sirius to regain his human form. I doubt very much that she knew 
about the Philosopher's Stone. I doubt that any did, other than those who were 
directly involved in its protection. Filch was part of the protection in that 
he had a role in guarding the corridor. Why tell anyone else? 

As for why he chose the staff room? Good question. I did wonder if it were 
all JKR's fault. imperio'ing him to do it there so that it was easier for Harry 
to find him, but then I suppose he could as easily have found him in his 
office, though I guess the door would more likely have been locked.

~Eloise
(hoping yet another post hasn't been added to this thread whilst I wasn't 
looking


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net  Tue Mar 23 13:54:01 2004
From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 7:54:01 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape, trying very hard not to smile? Or is he just allergic to cats?
Message-ID: <20040323135402.XGFL5247.out014.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 93742

{Potioncat}

So, he must have been working on his own without DD's knowldege (a 
lot like Harry, isn't he?) If he went to Poppy, DD would find out.  
(Does Snape really think he can keep this sort of thing from DD?)  
But why then did he choose the teachers' lounge?  Wouldn't his own 
office be a better place?


{Silverthorne}

Maybe not if he were a spy acting as a DE...Since Snape doesn't seem to 'live' anywhere else, anything he might have his hands on for the DE's probably has to be kept in his private chambers and/or office. Depedning on what side Filch (And Snape) might be on, there could be things in either room that he would not want filch to see or get into (Not to mention the ever-voracious readers who would dissect avery object in said rooms for clues as to 'Whose side Snape is on'.

Of course, perhaps more practically, perhaps it was easier, closer and faster for Snape to go to Filch instead of the other way around...maybe all those dungeons steps were a bit much to brave with a fresh cerebus wound on his leg...(Not to mention, Harry would have never heard or seen that scene if Snape HAD secured himself in his chambers first...^^)

Anne



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From meriaugust at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 23 14:00:03 2004
From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 14:00:03 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c3pe2e+dvlr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3pft3+rg9o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93743

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Anna" <annabellejane97 at y...> 
wrote:
> In OoP, when Harry breaks into Umbridge's office to talk to Sirius 
> about what he had seen in the pensieve, Lupin  says:
> 
> "Harry, there is nothing so important as you learning 
Occulemency!" 
> said Lupin sternly.  Do you understand me?  Nothing!" 
> 
> When I reread  OoP, reading that line made me wonder if, on a 
> subconscious level,  Lupin  harbors any resentment toward Harry 
> because Harry's failure to learn Occulemency ultimately lead to 
> Sirius' death.  Sirius was the last remaining tie to his days at 
> Hogwarts, which (as we learn in PoA) were the best times of his 
> life.  Losing Sirius must have devastated Lupin. 
> 
> Sorry if this has already been discussed.  If it has, can someone 
> tell me where I can find it.  I did a search, but came up with 
> nothing.
> 
> Thanks, Anna.

That's an interesting point, but I don't know if he feels any 
resentment against Harry per se. I am sure that he was devastated 
over the death of his last remaining loyal (ok, Wormtail is still 
alive, but he doesn't really count, eh?) school friend. But to feel 
resentful against the man's devoted 15 year old god son who is 
equally deastated seems, IMHO, a bit out of character. After all, 
Lupin is seemingly sensible enough to understand that Sirius made 
the choice to come to the DoM himself (what I wouldn't give to hear 
their discussion before leaving no. 12 Grimmauld). And besides, it 
is techically Harry's fault that James and Lily died, and that 
doesn't seem to have led to any resentment. Just my couple of knuts, 
barely a sickel's worth. 
Meri




From vmonte at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 23 14:01:03 2004
From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 14:01:03 -0000
Subject: Seeing Sirius Again (was: Re: Sirius/Tonks)
In-Reply-To: <495A161B83F7544AA943600A98833B5303554E14@mimas.fareham.climax.co.uk>
Message-ID: <c3pfuv+o1mc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93744

vmonte writes:

Or perhaps there is a portrait of Sirius stuffed in an attic 
somewhere. Maybe this is how Harry will communicate with Sirius.

vmonte 




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Mar 23 14:12:28 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 14:12:28 -0000
Subject: Snape, trying very hard not to smile? Or is he just allergic to cats?
In-Reply-To: <c3pb9h+sb0q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3pgkc+107on@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93746

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" 
<willsonkmom at m...> wrote:
  Having him go to Filch rather than Poppy 
> made his actions look more suspicious....but why did he do it?  
(I 
> know which one I'd rather have tending a wound!) 
> 
> So, he must have been working on his own without DD's 
knowldege (a  lot like Harry, isn't he?) If he went to Poppy, DD 
would find out.   (Does Snape really think he can keep this sort of 
thing from DD?)   But why then did he choose the teachers' 
lounge?  Wouldn't his own  office be a better place?<<

I think Snape has been working hand in glove with Dumbledore 
all along--don't you think Dumbledore has ways of keeping tabs 
on the staff room? Wonder whose portraits are in there?

In any case, Snape isn't trying to keep his wound a secret or he 
would have chosen a more private place than the staff room, 
which isn't even locked.  Either he has some reason for not 
wishing to be examined by Pomfrey (she'd recognize a vampire, 
wouldn't she?), or he wishes to make it appear that he has. 

Snape might have a grudge against Pomfrey going back to his 
school days, since she helped Lupin maintain his disguise.

Pippin






From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue Mar 23 14:19:47 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 14:19:47 -0000
Subject: Snape and the Order
In-Reply-To: <c3pdee+2kg7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3ph23+sip8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93747

snipping my reply> 
Inge wrote:
Actually now that you mention Lupin - he was the main reason I asked 
> the question about Snape in the first place. Do we know if Lupin 
knew 
> about Snape being a DE during the first war? Or didn't he know 
> anything about Snapes role till the Order got together again at the 
> beginning of OOTP (with Snape as new member? with Snape as a member 
> from the first time around?).
> You also mention Black. I don't remember the passage in which he 
> states (or someone else states) that he didn't know about Snape 
being 
> a DE. Didn't he know? 
>more snipping<

Potioncat:

Sirius and the trio are discussing DE's and particularly Snape
in GoF, Padfoot Returns (US paperback) 531--532.)  One of Sirius' 
quotes is "...but I just can't see him (DD) letting Snape teach at 
Hogwarts if he'd ever worked for Voldemort..."

So even though Black heard DE's in Askaban talking about Pettigrew, 
he never heard about Snape.  And it doesn't sound like he knew Snape 
ever helped in the first war, because he was surprised that Snape was 
at Hogwarts in PoA.  (Which supports Snape starting at Hogwarts after 
October.)

I suspect DD is the only one who knew of Snape's role in the first 
war.

Also, Black doesnt' seem to know about the DE's dark mark, which 
makes me think it is usually invisible. 
Potioncat




From jojobinks1983 at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Mar 23 11:51:56 2004
From: jojobinks1983 at yahoo.co.uk (jojobinks1983)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 11:51:56 -0000
Subject: MarioMort
Message-ID: <c3p8cs+4u9d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93748

To me so far Voldemort hasn't been the most convincing of evil bad 
guys. Although a couple of people are dead he has been consumed by 
petty small scale tyrades (come on, ressurection isn't that big a 
deal) and getting his hands on this prophecy. Where's the mass 
murder? There isn't much behaviour to support the extent to which his 
character induces fear in the WW (so far).

However, what if Voldemort isn't the ultimate bad guy in this tale? I 
think he could merely be a pawn played by an even more evil overlord 
(cue Slytherin) just as the DE are to him. He doesn't exactly have 
the credentials to lead an attack against mudbloods now does he. It's 
just like Super Mario where you've just about managed to kill the 
guys protecting the huge baddie, and in your last breath you get in a 
lucky shot, only for a bigger, steel reinforced and infinitely more 
evil enemy to make an apperance.

I'm sure JKR wouldn't be so tacky, or if she would then it wouldn't 
appear to be tacky at all, but it's an idea.

Jo, who really wants Voldemort to get down with his evil side. Post 
haste.





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Mar 23 14:46:42 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 14:46:42 -0000
Subject: The Podmore Connection--Percy as DD's Spy
In-Reply-To: <c3oflf+r77t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3piki+g20m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93749

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scoutmom21113" 
<navarro198 at h...> wrote:
> Kimberly wrote:
> I really don't think Percy is acting for the Order.  There are 
> plenty of DD's spys in the Ministry (Kingsley Shacklebolt, Arthur, 
> Tonks), and everyone in the Order is allowed to know about 
them.  
> 
> Pippin: 
> Well, Arthur was obviously wrong, because Percy continued his 
upward  rise even after he broke ties with his family. 
> 
> Bookworm:
> Percy didn't continue to rise after breaking with his family. He 
> broke with his family because of his promotion. He stayed in 
>the  position of Junior Assistant to the Minister during the whole 
>book.

Exactly. If he was only given the position so Fudge could spy on 
the Weasleys and Dumbledore, why did Fudge let him
 continue in it when he'd broken off relations with them? If Fudge 
wanted him to spy on the Weasleys, wouldn't he have ordered 
Percy to make up with his family and visit his poor dad in the 
hospital?

Bookworm: 
> Percy acts pompously so much in the first books that his 
enthusiasm stands out in OoP. IMO, this is because he is 
excited that the  Minister Himself recognizes Percy's worth when 
his own family  doesn't.  <snip examples>

> 
> If Percy were spying on Fudge, he didn't have to be quite so 
> enthusiastic about it.<<

Are you sure he's not  *acting*?  We know he's a good actor, 
since he managed to conceal his relationship with Penelope for 
an entire year. Percy is definitely one of the sneaky Weasleys,  
like Fred, George, and Ginny. Ice mice woudn't melt in his mouth. 
<g>

> Pippin:
> What if Percy had second thoughts after the argument, found 
>that his family had already left The Burrow, contacted 
>Dumbledore to relay  his apologies, and was recruited as a spy 
>instead?
> 
> Bookworm:
> Did the family leave the Burrow? Molly wasn't at Grimauld 
Place when  the kids got there after Arthur's injury. Dumbledore 
hints that she  was at the Burrow: "`But she may already 
know...that excellent clock  of hers...'" (p471).<<

Percy left home the same night as the argument.
"It was the first week back after term ended," said Ron, "We were 
*about to come and join the Order.* Percy came home and told 
us he'd been promoted." (emphasis mine)

 So if Percy  tried to get in touch with his family immediately after 
that, he'd have found them gone.  According to Ron, Percy said 
he'd decided his loyalties were with the Ministry rather than 
Dumbledore. But Dumbledore believes in second chances, you 
know. 

Bookworm:
> We know that Percy cares for his family (see his reaction to 
Ron's  return after the second task in GoF) but, IMO, he is not 
close to  any of them. He feels unappreciated by them.  I can 
easily see how  his stiff-necked pride and ambition would have 
him desperate for  Fudge's approval. 
> 

Or Dumbledore's? "Mad?" said Percy airily."He's a genius! Best 
wizard in the world! But he is a bit mad, yes. Potatoes, Harry/"
-PS/SS ch. 7.

Pippin




From vmonte at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 23 14:49:59 2004
From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 14:49:59 -0000
Subject: Horse Feathers
In-Reply-To: <20040323094734.EBB22A7E57@front.interia.pl>
Message-ID: <c3piqn+lpkk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93750

vmonte writes:

Perhaps the wands that are made with Fawkes feathers can only be 
given to the heirs of one of the original 4 Houses.  How old is 
Fawkes anyway?  (He probably belonged to Godric, right?)  

Is it possible that the OOTP also protects certain descendants of the 
original 4 Houses?  Is it possible that the Order is also interested 
in finding, protecting, and distinguishing children who possess the 
qualities found in the original 4?

There is a lot of preoccupation with time, immortality, and rebirth 
in the books.  Is it possible that certain children are born with a 
mark that distinguishes them to the Order, but only when they are  
attacked or are in danger?  

Is it possible that Godric had a scar like Harry's? 

Perhaps the prophecy is vague because it concerns 4 children.  The 
prophecy only states what month these children were born; it says 
nothing about what year. 

Neville and Harry are born in the same month and year. 
But how about Ginny or Luna?  

vmonte




From quigonginger at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 23 14:45:11 2004
From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 14:45:11 -0000
Subject: Filk: Hammer Up the Window
Message-ID: <c3pihn+vbc5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93751

As long as we all have it in our heads anyway, let's hear Uncle 
Vernon's words as he sang "Tiptoe Through the Tulips"

To Neri, and everyone else that got this stuck in their heads:

Vernon, pounding his nail with the fruitcake Petunia gave him sings:

Hammer up the window!  Shut the window, and we'll be post-free.
Come hammer up the window with me.
Hammer up the doorslot!  Shut the mail slot.  No more posts we'll see.
Come hammer up the doorslot with me.
Knee deep in posts we've been, parchment enscribed with green.
So I will hammer up the window, and the doorslot, and the chim-a-ny.
Come hammer up my dwelling with me.


Had to do it, Ginger

Oh, yes, to give credit where credit is due:  the song is by Al Dubin 
& Joe Burke.  It was a #1 for Nick Lucas in 1929.  Also #5 for Jean 
Goldkette, #11 for Johnny Marvin, #18 for Roy Foz, and of course, #17 
for Tiny Tim in 1968.

"Pedibus Suspensis per Tulipas Eamus"




From dk59us at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 23 15:01:35 2004
From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 15:01:35 -0000
Subject: Horse Feathers
In-Reply-To: <20040323094734.EBB22A7E57@front.interia.pl>
Message-ID: <c3pjgf+9fpi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93752

Viridis wrote:
<snips>
The shop with such a history and with such specific clientele may ery
well stack wands made even hundreds years ago, which hasn't yet found
"their" wizard. 

Now Eustace_Scrubb:
Indeed, I suspect that these two wands _were_ made about one-thousand
years ago, when Hogwarts was still new, but I've got no real proof of
that. 
 
Viridis again:  
That its Harry who bought Thingy's brother wand? Fate is guiding
hero's hand, m'dears...

Eustace_Scrubb:
Yes...to paraphrase another author...I can put it no plainer than by
saying that Harry was meant to find that wand, and not by its maker. 
...And that may be an encouraging thought.

Cheers,

Eustace_Scrubb




From mongo62aa at yahoo.ca  Tue Mar 23 15:07:20 2004
From: mongo62aa at yahoo.ca (mongo62aa)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 15:07:20 -0000
Subject: Halfbloods in Slytherin?  Was:Re: Is Snape a Snake?
In-Reply-To: <c3o6ps+ctnk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3pjr8+m9q9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93753

annemehr wrote:

If you go there, and proceed ahead to pics #14 and #15, looking at 
the list of students, look at the symbols in the middle column, 
which seem to stand for muggle/wizard origins.  Vincent Crabbe and 
Gregory Goyle have the same circled star that the half-blooded 
Seamus Finnegan has, and not the plain star that Millicent Bulstrode 
is shown with.

Me:

Actually, it looks to me that the plain star represents 'Halfblood' 
while the circled star represents 'Pureblood'.  If you look closely 
as Seamus's symbol, you see that it was originally a circled star, 
but that the circle has been lightly crossed out.  Here is the list 
of all known students with a circled star (Pureblood) vs plain star 
(Halfblood) vs N (Muggleborn):


Symbol: N (Muggleborn)

Abbott, Hannah--F--Hufflepuff

Boot, Trevor--M--Ravenclaw (first name changed to 'Terry' in the 
books)

Entwhistle, Kevin--M--Ravenclaw

Finch-Fletchley, Justin--M--Hufflepuff

Granger, Hermione--F--Gryffindor

*****note that there are no Slytherins out of five students on the 
above list*****

Symbol: Plain Star (Halfblood)

Bones, Susan--F--Hufflepuff

Brocklehurst, Mandy--F--Ravenclaw

Bulstrode, Millicent--F--Slytherin

Corner, Michael--M--Hufflepuff (house changed to Ravenclaw in the 
books)

Davis, Tracy--F--Slytherin (symbol changed from N in the notebook)

Goldstein, Anthony--M--Hufflepuff (house changed to Ravenclaw in the 
books)

Hopkins, Wayne--M--Hufflepuff

Jones, Megan--F--Hufflepuff

Li, Su--F--Ravenclaw

Longbottom, Neville--M--Ravenclaw (blood status changed to Pureblood 
in the books; house changed to Gryffindor in the books)

*****note that there are two Slytherins out of ten students on the 
above list*****

Symbol: Circled Star (Pureblood)

Brown, Lavender--F--Gryffindor

Cornfoot, Stephen--M--Ravenclaw

Crabbe, Vincent--M--Slytherin

Finnigan, Seamus--M--Gryffindor (blood status changed to Halfblood 
in the books)

Goyle, Gregory--M--Slytherin

Greengrass, Queenie--F--Slytherin (first name changed to Daphne in 
the books)

MacDougal, Isabel--F--Ravenclaw (first name changed from Katrina in 
the notebook; first name changed to Morag in the books)

*****note that there are three Slytherins out of seven students on 
the above list*****

Bill




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue Mar 23 15:19:29 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 15:19:29 -0000
Subject: Snape, trying very hard not to smile? Or is he just allergic to cats?
In-Reply-To: <cb.3ebe4fab.2d919b30@aol.com>
Message-ID: <c3pki1+o190@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93754

 
> Eloise:
> Well, you know, I'm sorry, but much as it pains me to say it, I 
think that probably Snape is simply using Filch.  
snip
 We know from PS/SS that Filch was under orders to tell Snape if any 
> students were wandering the corridors at night. Filch is an extra 
set of eyes and ears for Snape (in fact with Mrs Norris, two sets of 
eyes and ears which again begs the very question under discussion 
here)
snip> 

Potioncat:
I think you're right.  Snape sees Filch as someone who can serve him 
although I'm not sure I'd call it "using" Filch so much as using his 
services.

I think the reason Snape wants Filch to report any wandering 
students, is because there is a dangerous situation going on and he 
is concerned about safety.   
 
  
 
> Eloise:
xsnip
> 
> I think he's amused because Harry *is* in the wrong place at the 
wrong time and he hopes to take advantage of it. Perhaps he's also 
amused because he's standing in Lockhart's office with portraits 
wearing curlers dodging out of sight. He can witness Lockhart making 
a prat of himself and exploit the situation  to his own advantage 
against Harry. Or so he hopes. 
> 
> The smile he is trying to suppress develops, once he starts to 
speak, into a 
> sneer:
> 
> >>"Potter and his friends may have simply been in the wrong place 
at the
> wrong time," he said, a slight sneer curling his mouth as though he
> doubted it.<<
> 
> and from there into a full blown smile as he finally catches Harry 
et al out:
> 
> >>"Without any supper?" said Snape, a triumphant smile flickering 
across
> his gaunt face. "I didn't think ghosts provided food fit for living 
people
> at their parties."
> 
> "We weren't hungry," said Ron loudly as his stomach gave a huge
> rumble.
> 
> Snape's nasty smile widened.
> 
> "I suggest, Headmaster, that Potter is not being entirely 
truthful," he
> said. "It might be a good idea if he were deprived of certain 
privileges
> until he is ready to tell us the whole story. I personally feel he 
should
> be taken off the Gryffindor Quidditch team until he is ready to be
> honest." <<
> 
> The smile disappears as soon as Dumbledore refuses to blame Harry 
and Snape 
> and Filch are once more united:
> 
> >>Snape looked furious. So did Filch.<<


Potioncat:  I think you may  have hit on it, the smile isn't about 
the cat.  It's hard to understand how he can be amused though, given 
how serious the Chamber of Secrets is.  

I've wondered if he didn't use some form of legilimency and was 
letting DD know that he saw deception in Potter's mind.  I think he 
added the quidditch restriction because Snape will use any means to 
win quidditch. He may have been angry at DD's apparant dismissal of 
the dishonesty issue rather than the quidditch restriction.
> 
snipping Sue and Eloise comments
 
> Sue: 
> >Snape is quite flattered at the young Malfoy's suggestion that he 
become headmaster after DD's  departure.  He certainly didn't protest 
the idea or defend DD.
 
> Eloise:
> Could the smirk be because this was confirmation that he had Lucius 
Malfoy exactly where he wanted him (is *Lucius* actually the lap 
dog?) If he wants to  maintain his reputation amongst the Voldemort 
supporters, then it's to his advantage to play the card that Draco 
put into his hand.

Potioncat:
I didn't see that Snape was flattered, I thought he was well aware 
that Draco was playing up to him.  He did support DD by saying he 
wouldn't be gone long. But he did it in a way that as Eloise said, 
played the hand.
> 

Eloise (I think): 
> I don't think it's to do with fear that Mme Pomprey will report 
what's he's 
> up to. Mme Pomfrey isn't one of Dumbledore's inner circle. At the 
end of GoF, 
> although she hears the same revelations as Fudge (including that 
Snape was a 
> DE), Dumbledore is very careful to make sure that she is well out 
of earshot 
> before allowing Sirius to regain his human form. I doubt very much 
that she knew 
> about the Philosopher's Stone. I doubt that any did, other than 
those who were 
> directly involved in its protection. Filch was part of the 
protection in that 
> he had a role in guarding the corridor. Why tell anyone else?

Potioncat:  I think you've gotten this too!  The students weren't 
supposed to know and perhaps many of the staff didn't either.  So it 
made sense to use someone other than Poppy.  And it certainly made 
for a large red herring! 

Eliose: 
> As for why he chose the staff room? Good question. I did wonder if 
it were  all JKR's fault. imperio'ing him to do it there so that it 
was easier for Harry 
snip

Potioncat who just couldn't snip the part about JKR imperio'ing the 
characters.




From catherinemck at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 23 15:38:32 2004
From: catherinemck at hotmail.com (catherinemckiernan)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 15:38:32 -0000
Subject: Apparating into the Ministry...
In-Reply-To: <c3p1bc+h361@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3pllo+6b6c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93755

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kashelkar" <kashelkar at y...> 
wrote:
> Catherine said:  --snipped--
Stuff on why the DEs, not LV go to the Ministry. 
> 
> kashelkar's reply:
>  
>  Here I'd like to clarify certain things:  The entire OOP book 
>  revolves around the prophecy.  The plot involving the prophecy and 
>  Voldy's desire to capture it, is the backbone of the book.  Hence 
> it must be made clear beyond any reasonable doubts that it was 
>  IMPOSSIBLE for Voldy (for some reason or other) to go and grab the 
>  prophecy himself at any point of time.  However, this is not very 
>  clear in the book.

Catherine McK ? You're right, it isn't. However until Rookwood told 
LV that the prophecy could only be collected by its subjects, LV 
didn't need to go and get it himself. He tried an indirect approach 
that would discredit the Ministry (Imperiused!Bode). So at least 
until the DE escape from Azkaban, Voldemort assumes that anyone can 
get the prophecy and he doesn't need to risk himself. Only after the 
conversation with Rookwood does he need to try another way. Harry is 
not his first plan.

>  
>  I don't agree with Catherine's statement:  "...So perhaps the DE's 
>  were not entirely sure that it would be possible to get as far as 
>  they did without raising any alarm at all. ....."  
> 
> Kashelkar's reply:
>  
> Obviously, if the DEs were discovered entering the MoM, the 
> security there would be tightened, and even Voldy won't be able to 
> break-in afterwards.  So, this was their first and last chance, and 
> hence the DEs must have done a lot of homework on this.  
Informations 
> such as anti-burglary spells put on the MoM, the security persons, 
> their habits etc etc. had to be gathered and analysed properly. 
> Obviously, no one would be able to break into the office of a 
> ministry as and when he wishes.  And here we also must assume this, 
> that the break-in at the MoM was carefully planned and executed by 
> Voldy and DEs. And therefore, I must say that it was most simple 
for 
> Voldy to plan his own journey to and fro MoM, rather than plan HP's 
> journey.  In execution of any plan there are numerous things which 
> can go wrong. However, when you yourself are a part to the 
execution, 
> you can keep atleast some of the things under control.  (eg.  what 
if 
> Harry couldn't get any transport?? what if some professor at 
Hogwarts 
>  stopped him??  What if Snape was able to contact him with the news 
> that Sirius is safe?? What if he could not escape from Umbridge?? 
>  What if Hermione, after all, was able to contain him, and he 
> decided not to go???  What if he met with an accident on his way 
and 
> could not make it to the MoM??? There are so many ifs and buts...  
> All these (and many more) questions must get the right answers for 
> Voldy's plan to succeed and he doesn't have any influence over 
these 
> events at all.  If Harry doesn't go to MoM that time, he'd soon 
come 
> to know abt the reality, and then in future he'd never react to 
> such 'visions'in haste.)
> > 
>  And hence, I feel that it was most natural for Voldy to plan the 
>  break-in at MoM in such a manner that He himself would be able to 
> go there and grab the prophecy.  I don't think that this was a 
> difficult task, a little more caution, a little more carefulness 
and 
> he gets what he desires.  He could disguise himself in different 
ways 
> for this (invisibility cloak, polyjuice potion etc).  Bringing HP 
to 
> MoM to do all this looks highly far-fetched.  Once you think this 
> way, the climax of the book is not fun to read at all (unlike CoS, 
> where the plot is very convincing and the climax is fun to read 
again 
> and again).

Catherine McK responds
 I'm not snipping because I think I need all 
Kashelkar's well-thought out argument to make the point. It is (from 
our present knowledge) far more difficult for Voldie to get Harry to 
take the prophecy that for LV to do it himself. So why does he get 
Harry to do the deed? To my mind there are three possible answers ? 
1)	JKR didn't plot well enough.
2)	There were additional problems for Voldemort, which will be 
revealed at a later date
3)	Someone was giving Voldemort bad advice. We know that 
Voldemort cannot gather all the information he makes his decisions on 
himself, and sometimes that information turns out to be wrong, e.g. 
plan (a) was based on the fact that Avery believed Imperiused!Bode 
could get the prophecy. After its failure, presumably Rookwood then 
said "My Lord, it must be you or Potter". What happened then we don't 
know. Maybe LV did intend to whisk in himself to get it until another 
DE suggested that was a  high-risk approach. A cunning, ambitious DE 
who didn't actually want the plan to succeed, and knew his way around 
the Ministry, for example (yes, I'm back on my traitor!Lucius hobby 
horse).

Hmm. Must reread OotP. 

Catherine McK





From catherinemck at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 23 16:09:14 2004
From: catherinemck at hotmail.com (catherinemckiernan)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 16:09:14 -0000
Subject: FILK: Bellatrix, Bellatrix (nursery rhymes)
Message-ID: <c3pnfa+6gqa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93756

Feeling inspired (possibly after reading too much Terry Pratchett) I 
decided to continue with the filking of nursery rhymes. The tunes to 
these are "Curly Locks, Curly Locks," "Ding dong
bell/Pussy's in the 
well" and "The North Wind Doth Blow."

*
(sung by Voldemort, obviously)

Bellatrix, Bellatrix, wilt thou be mine?
I'll teach you Dark Magic and curses sublime.
We'll slaughter the Mudbloods that our world demean,
Rejoicing in hexes and torture and screams.
Bellatrix, Bellatrix, thou wilt be mine,
I'll teach you Dark Magic and curses sublime.

*

Ding dong bell,
Pussy isn't well.
Though she hasn't died, 
Yet she's petrified. 

Whatever could do this ? 
Was it a basilisk?
Hermione could say
But she's just gone the same way.

*

The cactus doth grow
And Neville will show
It's wonderful means of defence, like so.

Now they're covered in slime
And Harry repines,
It's not how he wished to meet Cho, like so. 

Catherine McK





From chrissilein at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 23 17:18:13 2004
From: chrissilein at yahoo.com (Lady Of The Pensieve)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 17:18:13 -0000
Subject: Is Snape a Snake?
In-Reply-To: <c3kd9v+on3c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3prgm+h7eo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93757

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" <vmonte at y...> wrote:
> vmonte writes:
> 
> I know there is a lot of speculation that Snape is a Vampire or bat.
> But what if he is a snake?  What if he is Voldemort's pet?  Is this 
> how he spies for the Order? Is it possible that when Snape is a
snake 
> he is influenced by the snake charmer -- meaning Voldemort?!  Is
this 
> why Snape told Malfoy to use the snake spell during the duel, to
see 
> if Harry was a snake charmer?  
> 
> 
> vmonte

Hi vmonte,

this is indeed a very interesting question. From my point of view he
is a serpent, but he musn?t be an animagus. I highly doubt he is
Voldi?s pet. Nagini the snake is, well, a girl (hehe). Wouldn?t
it be
a horrific idea if poor Snapey would turn out a hermaphrodite?

In an other forum I wrote a longer essay why I think he is a snake or
better like a snake. He reminds me of a snake. I never bought the
vampire story. He is Severus Snape, head of Slytherin House, which
symbol is a SERPENT. 
Even I?m a sceptical with all these anagram talks, his name can be
changed indeed into very snaky anagrams. 

The first one is SUAVE SERPENS, which means in Latin "kiss of the
snake (urrghh sounds good, doesn?t it?)and "soft/gentle snake". 
The second one would be SEAVU SERPENS, which means "rage (angry, hard
severe!!!) and wild snake". It?s maybe no proper Latin but JKR
herself
uses "wrong Latin" sometimes.

Both anagrams fit perfectly his personality. 
A third anagram for his name is "SAVE PURENESS". Sounds very
Slytherin-like, doesn?t it?

By the way, I think he is a snake charmer. Before the fith book was
released I got the idea he maybe is a Parselmouth, too. I?m not
certain anymore, he is an superb Occlumens and maybe this is the true
reason why he let Draco made the Serpensortia charme. It?s quite
possible he already had an idea of that Harry is a Parselmouth. Still
it is possible he is a Parselmouth himself, or understands snakes? Who
knows? Tom Marvolo Riddle told Harry Potter in the Chamber of Secrets
that they both PROBABLY are the only two people who still can talk to
snakes. He wasn?t sure about it.

Lady Of The Pensieve




From pt4ever at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 23 17:49:14 2004
From: pt4ever at yahoo.com (JoAnna)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 17:49:14 -0000
Subject: Horse Feathers
In-Reply-To: <c3oeim+k3i8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3ptaq+cjuf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93758

>  
> vmonte responds:
> 
> I've always had the feeling that Olivander was Flamel.
> 
> vmonte

JoAnna:

Doubtful.  In SS/PS, Dumbledore tells Harry, "[Nicolas Flamel and 
his wife, Perenelle] have enough Elixir stored to set their affairs 
in order; then yes, they will die."  (don't have my book available, 
but it's in the last or second-to-last chapter).  I have the feeling 
that Nicolas and Perenelle died shortly after the events of SS/PS, 
after the stone was destroyed.  

Ollivander, however, is present for the Weighing of the Wands in 
GoF.  I sincerely doubt it took two-three years for Nicolas & 
Perenelle Flamel to set their affairs in order, and if so I doubt 
NicolasFlamel!Ollivander would continue working at his wand shop if 
he had so much to do.

- JoAnna




From pt4ever at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 23 17:42:19 2004
From: pt4ever at yahoo.com (JoAnna)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 17:42:19 -0000
Subject: why doesn't Voldy use a time-turner???
In-Reply-To: <c3p201+11273@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3pstr+87q3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93759

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kashelkar" <kashelkar at y...> 
wrote:
> Why Voldy doesn't use a time turner to visit the history and do 
> things he wanted to do for so long??  like, maybe killing HP? or 
> maybe even listen to the prophecy (he could use some disguise for 
> that)?  Alternatively, he could command one of his DEs do such 
things 
> for him.

JoAnna:

Perhaps he didn't want to compete with another Voldemort.  Think 
about it - when Harry and Hermione used the time-turner to go back 
and save Sirius, there were two Harrys and two Hermiones in 
existance for the space of a couple of hours, fully capable of 
interacting with each other (as Harry2 did when he performed the 
Patronus charm for Harry1). 

Let's say that Voldemort (Voldemort2) did use a time turner, went to 
Godric's Hollow fourteen years ago, and somehow stopped Voldemort1 
from performing the AK curse on Harry.  Whoops, now you have two 
Voldemorts - and from what we know of Voldie, he does NOT like to 
share power with anyone else!  So you'll have Voldemort1 and 
Voldemort2 locked in a power struggle with all its nasty 
implications:  divided camp of DEs, assassination attempts, etc.; 
not to mention that Voldemort1 may think that Voldemort2 is a clever 
plan of Dumbledore's, and just AK Harry anyway).  Then Voldie2 is 
stuck in a recurring time loop, dating from when Voldie1 tries to AK 
Harry until when Voldie2 goes back in time to prevent Voldie1 from 
AKing Harry.  We have no evidence that time turners can be used to 
travel forward in time, so likely Voldie would get stuck.

Plus, Voldemort2 was resurrected with the help of Harry's blood.  
So, if he goes back in time and persuades Voldemort1 not to AK 
Harry, but to kill Harry some other way - what happens to Voldemort2 
once Harry is dead?  Harry would not have lived to be transported to 
the graveyard, where he played a role in Voldemort's ressurection.  
So Voldie2 may wink out of existance.

Also, Voldie is probably aware of the dangers of time travel given 
his level of knowledge and intelligence about magic; for example, 
Hermione tells Harry in PoA that wizards have ended up going back in 
time and killing their past selves, and other awful occurances.  
Time travel is no doubt a highly unpredictable experience, and it's 
possible Voldie didn't want to take the risks associated with it.   
Going back a mere three hours is one thing, but fourteen years?  No 
doubt that's why Hermione knew they couldn't interfere with Snape 
getting the invisibility cloak, Pettigrew's escape, etc. - because 
the repercussions on the future could cause many, many problems.

Not to mention that we don't know how far back in time you can go 
with a time turner - Hermione had to use "three turns" of the turner 
to go back three hours; Voldie would have to turn the time turner 
122,640 times (24 hours x 365 days x 14 years) to go back that far!  
Assuming it takes one second to complete one turn, Voldie would be 
turning that thing for 34 hours straight.  Granted, we don't know if 
there are bigger time-turners, or time-turners that go back years 
instead of days, but I think time-travel would present more trouble 
than it's worth.

Just my two Knuts (though considering the length of this post, it's 
more like two Galleons)!

- JoAnna




From eloiseherisson at aol.com  Tue Mar 23 17:48:37 2004
From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 12:48:37 EST
Subject: Snape, trying very hard not to smile? Or is he just allergic to cats?
Message-ID: <167.2d2c470b.2d91d275@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93760

Potioncat:
>  I think you may  have hit on it, 

Eloise:
Thank you. <blushes>

Potioncat:
>the smile isn't about 
> the cat.  It's hard to understand how he can be amused though, given 
> how serious the Chamber of Secrets is.  

Eloise:
I know. Worrying, isn't it? I can only imagine that he *doesn't* know at this 
stage the seriousness of the situation. Either that or Sue's right and he 
knows about (and is colluding with) the plot.

Potioncat:
> I've wondered if he didn't use some form of legilimency and was 
> letting DD know that he saw deception in Potter's mind.  I think he 
> added the quidditch restriction because Snape will use any means to 
> win quidditch. He may have been angry at DD's apparant dismissal of 
> the dishonesty issue rather than the quidditch restriction.

Eloise:
I think Legilimency needs, or at least benefits from eye contact. I'm sure 
that there *is* Legilimency in this scene, but not from Snape.

>>Dumbledore was giving Harry a searching look. His twinkling light-
blue gaze made Harry feel as though he were being X-rayed.

"Innocent until proven guilty, Severus," he said firmly.

Snape looked furious. So did Filch.<<

You could be right. But I suspect Snape's angry because a) he's been proved 
wrong and b) he isn't getting his own way. Quidditch is also a good way of 
twisting the knife in Harry as it's the thing he cares most about. 

He hoped that Harry was going to be found culpable (I doubt he thought that 
Harry was actually to blame) and instead, Dumbledore diagnoses a condition that 
Harry *couldn't* have induced. So he changes tack. If Potter didn't harm the 
cat, then he was certainly up to something - but Dumbledore thwarts him again. 
At this point he gives up on Harry and directs his anger at Lockhart:

"Excuse me," said Snape icily. "But I believe I am the Potions master
at this school."

thus retaining a shred of dignity in the situation.

~Eloise






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Tue Mar 23 18:12:39 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 23 Mar 2004 19:12:39 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Snape a Snake?
Message-ID: <20040323181239.CF53B1EC877@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 93761

> Lady Of The Pensieve:

> The first one is SUAVE SERPENS, which means in Latin "kiss of the
> snake (urrghh sounds good, doesn?t it?)and "soft/gentle snake". 

Slighty OT, but what's wrong with kissing the snake? You sound as if it was most horrible thing in the world. Snakes - most of them - are indeed rather gentle creatures. I'd rather kiss a snake than let a dog lick my face - snakes at least don't slobber all over you and don't sniff their arses all the time.
And stroking a snake (get your minds off the gutter, the lot of you) is very pleasant. They have very nice, smooth skin.

Back to the topic - interesting anagrams of Severus' name. I like the first and the third one best. Anybody want to try Minerva McGonagall?

Cheers, Viridis

















> The second one would be SEAVU SERPENS, which means "rage (angry, hard
> severe!!!) and wild snake". It?s maybe no proper Latin but JKR
> herself
> uses "wrong Latin" sometimes.
> 
> Both anagrams fit perfectly his personality. 
> A third anagram for his name is "SAVE PURENESS". Sounds very
> Slytherin-like, doesn?t it?
> 
> By the way, I think he is a snake charmer. Before the fith book was
> released I got the idea he maybe is a Parselmouth, too. I?m not
> certain anymore, he is an superb Occlumens and maybe this is the true
> reason why he let Draco made the Serpensortia charme. It?s quite
> possible he already had an idea of that Harry is a Parselmouth. Still
> it is possible he is a Parselmouth himself, or understands snakes? Who
> knows? Tom Marvolo Riddle told Harry Potter in the Chamber of Secrets
> that they both PROBABLY are the only two people who still can talk to
> snakes. He wasn?t sure about it.
> 

> 
> 
> 
> ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________
> 
> Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File!
> http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin
> 
> Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from
> posts to which you're replying!
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> przyjazny portal : www.interia.pl >>> http://link.interia.pl/f17dc
> 
> 
> 
> 

________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!



From jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net  Tue Mar 23 18:22:11 2004
From: jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net (Robert Jones)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 18:22:11 -0000
Subject: "A Little Romance"
Message-ID: <c3pv8j+drt7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93762

In her recent interview, JKR was asked if Harry would fall for 
another girl or would be too busy for romance?  She answered 
that "he'll be busy but what is life without a little romance?"  But 
I doubt romance will be a prominent part of Book 6, and shippers who 
analyze each syllable for clues are going to disappointed.  JKR will 
pay a lot more attention to the plot about LV and make romance a 
minor side issue at best.  These aren't teenage romance novels, 
afterall.  So there will be little romance.





From dk59us at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 23 18:46:59 2004
From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 18:46:59 -0000
Subject: FILK:  Behind Red Eyes
Message-ID: <c3q0n3+rr66@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93763

Continuing to mine the collected works of Pete Townshend...

Behind Red Eyes (adapted from Behind Blue Eyes, off Who's Next)
(Lament sung by Harry sometime late in OOTP)

I have seen what it's like
To be the bad man
To be the mad man
Behind red eyes

I have sensed what it's like
When he's angry
at the failings
of his dark allies

And my dreams
They aren't as empty
As I wish that they could be

I've spent hours, in a long hallway
with a locked door
beckoning me

No one knows what it's like
To feel his feelings
Like I do
What must I do?

No one else knows his joy
Or his anger
Most of my schoolmates
Don't think it's true.

But my dreams
They aren't as empty
As I wish that they could be

I've heard Rookwood telling secrets
to further vengeance
that's aimed at me.

When my scar hurts me, don't tell Sirius
'cause he might panic and lose his cool
If I tell Ron or Hermione
They may just shrug and I'll feel like a fool.

Sometimes I feel I'm possessed by evil
I see the Headmaster as though I am a snake
If our eyes meet, I feel I should strike him
Though he's the last person that I should hate

I have seen what it's like
To be the bad man
To be the mad man
Behind red eyes




From steffy07 at aol.com  Tue Mar 23 19:10:04 2004
From: steffy07 at aol.com (steffy07)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 19:10:04 -0000
Subject: Apparating into the Ministry...
In-Reply-To: <c3pllo+6b6c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3q22c+fli5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93764

> > kashelkar's reply:
> >  
> >  Here I'd like to clarify certain things:  The entire OOP book 
> >  revolves around the prophecy.  The plot involving the prophecy 
and 
> >  Voldy's desire to capture it, is the backbone of the book.  
Hence 
> > it must be made clear beyond any reasonable doubts that it was 
> >  IMPOSSIBLE for Voldy (for some reason or other) to go and grab 
the 
> >  prophecy himself at any point of time.  However, this is not 
very 
> >  clear in the book.
> 
> Catherine McK ? You're right, it isn't. However until Rookwood 
told 
> LV that the prophecy could only be collected by its subjects, LV 
> didn't need to go and get it himself. He tried an indirect 
approach 
> that would discredit the Ministry (Imperiused!Bode). So at least 
> until the DE escape from Azkaban, Voldemort assumes that anyone 
can 
> get the prophecy and he doesn't need to risk himself. Only after 
the 
> conversation with Rookwood does he need to try another way. Harry 
is 
> not his first plan.
> 
> >  
> >  I don't agree with Catherine's statement:  "...So perhaps the 
DE's 
> >  were not entirely sure that it would be possible to get as far 
as 
> >  they did without raising any alarm at all. ....."  
> > 
> > Kashelkar's reply:
> >  
> > Obviously, if the DEs were discovered entering the MoM, the 
> > security there would be tightened, and even Voldy won't be able 
to 
> > break-in afterwards.  So, this was their first and last chance, 
and 
> > hence the DEs must have done a lot of homework on this.  
> Informations 
> > such as anti-burglary spells put on the MoM, the security 
persons, 
> > their habits etc etc. had to be gathered and analysed properly. 
> > Obviously, no one would be able to break into the office of a 
> > ministry as and when he wishes.  And here we also must assume 
this, 
> > that the break-in at the MoM was carefully planned and executed 
by 
> > Voldy and DEs. And therefore, I must say that it was most simple 
> for 
> > Voldy to plan his own journey to and fro MoM, rather than plan 
HP's 
> > journey.  In execution of any plan there are numerous things 
which 
> > can go wrong. However, when you yourself are a part to the 
> execution, 
> > you can keep atleast some of the things under control.  (eg.  
what 
> if 
> > Harry couldn't get any transport?? what if some professor at 
> Hogwarts 
> >  stopped him??  What if Snape was able to contact him with the 
news 
> > that Sirius is safe?? What if he could not escape from 
Umbridge?? 
> >  What if Hermione, after all, was able to contain him, and he 
> > decided not to go???  What if he met with an accident on his way 
> and 
> > could not make it to the MoM??? There are so many ifs and 
buts...  
> > All these (and many more) questions must get the right answers 
for 
> > Voldy's plan to succeed and he doesn't have any influence over 
> these 
> > events at all.  If Harry doesn't go to MoM that time, he'd soon 
> come 
> > to know abt the reality, and then in future he'd never react to 
> > such 'visions'in haste.)
> > > 
> >  And hence, I feel that it was most natural for Voldy to plan 
the 
> >  break-in at MoM in such a manner that He himself would be able 
to 
> > go there and grab the prophecy.  I don't think that this was a 
> > difficult task, a little more caution, a little more carefulness 
> and 
> > he gets what he desires.  He could disguise himself in different 
> ways 
> > for this (invisibility cloak, polyjuice potion etc).  Bringing 
HP 
> to 
> > MoM to do all this looks highly far-fetched.  Once you think 
this 
> > way, the climax of the book is not fun to read at all (unlike 
CoS, 
> > where the plot is very convincing and the climax is fun to read 
> again 
> > and again).
> 
> Catherine McK responds
 I'm not snipping because I think I need 
all 
> Kashelkar's well-thought out argument to make the point. It is 
(from 
> our present knowledge) far more difficult for Voldie to get Harry 
to 
> take the prophecy that for LV to do it himself. So why does he get 
> Harry to do the deed? To my mind there are three possible answers ?
 
> 1)	JKR didn't plot well enough.
> 2)	There were additional problems for Voldemort, which will be 
> revealed at a later date
> 3)	Someone was giving Voldemort bad advice. We know that 
> Voldemort cannot gather all the information he makes his decisions 
on 
> himself, and sometimes that information turns out to be wrong, 
e.g. 
> plan (a) was based on the fact that Avery believed Imperiused!Bode 
> could get the prophecy. After its failure, presumably Rookwood 
then 
> said "My Lord, it must be you or Potter". What happened then we 
don't 
> know. Maybe LV did intend to whisk in himself to get it until 
another 
> DE suggested that was a  high-risk approach. A cunning, ambitious 
DE 
> who didn't actually want the plan to succeed, and knew his way 
around 
> the Ministry, for example (yes, I'm back on my traitor!Lucius 
hobby 
> horse).


I too have left in everything posted before me so my post would make 
more sense...

IF LV whisks into the Ministry and steals the Prophesy, then it 
would have been obvious that he had, in fact, returned.  By 
convincing Harry to sneak into the Ministry, LV has solved that 
problem.  Umbridge would tell Fudge that Harry escaped from the 
school, and when the Prophesy was missing, Fudge would announce 
Harry stole it.  LV's return would not be proven.  However, if Harry 
was tucked away quietly in bed at Hogwarts the whole time, and the 
only other person that could have retrieved the prophesy was LV, and 
the prophesy was gone, well then, Fudge was wrong, Harry was right 
and LV is back.

Of course, all of LV's plans were to no avail because he was 
discovered anyway, but I don't think OOTP has plot holes or is less 
entertaining to read...I think it makes perfect sense




From chrissilein at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 23 19:57:42 2004
From: chrissilein at yahoo.com (Lady Of The Pensieve)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 19:57:42 -0000
Subject: Is Snape a Snake?
In-Reply-To: <20040323181239.CF53B1EC877@front.interia.pl>
Message-ID: <c3q4rm+jt4d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93765

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, bufo_viridis at i... wrote:
> > Lady Of The Pensieve:
> 
> > The first one is SUAVE SERPENS, which means in Latin "kiss of the
> > snake (urrghh sounds good, doesn?t it?)and "soft/gentle
snake". 
> 
> Slighty OT, but what's wrong with kissing the snake? You sound as if
it was most horrible thing in the world. Snakes - most of them - are
indeed rather gentle creatures. I'd rather kiss a snake than let a dog
lick my face - snakes at least don't slobber all over you and don't
sniff their arses all the time.
> And stroking a snake (get your minds off the gutter, the lot of you)
is very pleasant. They have very nice, smooth skin.
> 
> Back to the topic - interesting anagrams of Severus' name. I like
the first and the third one best. Anybody want to try Minerva
McGonagall?
> 
> Cheers, Viridis
> 
>
Hi Viridis,

Snape is my most beloved HP character, I would give him a kiss on his
mouth. Snakes are wonderfull animals, I admit that. But I use to
prefere kissing my tomcat Burli instead. You know what I mean?

Cheers, Chrissi




From hickengruendler at yahoo.de  Tue Mar 23 20:13:57 2004
From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 20:13:57 -0000
Subject: Neville's house (was:Halfbloods in Slytherin?  Was:Re: Is Snape a Snake?)
In-Reply-To: <c3pjr8+m9q9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3q5q5+9r9d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93766

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mongo62aa" <mongo62aa at y...> 
wrote:
 
> Longbottom, Neville--M--Ravenclaw (blood status changed to 
Pureblood 
> in the books; house changed to Gryffindor in the books)
> 

Nope. The inormations here given are for "something MagDougal". I 
forgot her first name. If you look on the list, you can see that 
Neville's name is squashed between Su Li and these MagDougal girl, 
but without the house or blood status. The entries at the end are 
written in the same size as the information for Li and Magdougal and 
not in the miniscule writing Neville's name was sqashed into the list.

She probably added the main characters later, although in Hermione's 
case she added the house and the blood status, but not with Neville. 
Pity that we can't see the entries for Malfoy, Harry and Ron. Neville 
is really not a Ravenclaw, anyway.

Hickengruendler 
  




From jrc241 at psu.edu  Tue Mar 23 20:29:05 2004
From: jrc241 at psu.edu (pennstgrle)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 20:29:05 -0000
Subject: Ginny as prefect? (Was: Animagus-Patronus)
In-Reply-To: <c3nuak+qmg3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3q6mh+39q6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93767


vmonte wrote:

> > I think Ginny Weasley is going to become an Animagus. Just a 
feeling.
> 

Carol:

> I don't know. Possibly, having seen the life that Scabbers lived 
for
> twelve years, she might be turned off to the idea. I imagine she'll
> inherit the Maruader's Map, though, when Harry leaves Hogwarts, 
which
> will be almost as useful for mischief and/or adventures as being an
> animagus.
> 
> What I've been wondering is whether Ginny will become a prefect in
> Book 6. She'll be the right age, and if she does, then Molly's 
remark,
> "That's everyone in the family!" will actually be true, except for 
the
> "next-door neighbors," Fred and George, who think prefects are 
prats.
> Or is Ginny too much like them to get the job?
> 
> Carol, imagining the looks of horror on F and G's faces if they'd
> received identical prefect badges in their fifth year


Jaimee:

I've been wondering if the twins really hate the position of prefect 
so much, or if that is there defensive mechanism--or whatever you 
want to call it--for not being selected...since everyone else in the 
family was.

I mean...even Harry, who we know deep down would have liked to have 
been selected, starts to go along with their jokes when Ron gets the 
badge. But he stops when he realizes that he's Ron's best friend and 
does not want to put down something Ron is chosen for over him.

My point is, I don't think the twins would've been all that upset if 
they received the badge--shocked, definitely! But not disgusted or 
upset. It's always nice to know someone believes in your abilities 
and thinks you can be a leader in a positive way.

And I also wonder if the position wasn't given to a twin because the 
selectors didn't want to have to pick one twin and leave the other 
behind. I mean....some twins are very very different and this 
distinction wouldn't matter. But Fred and George are practically 
portrayed as one entity in the books, BUT they are 2 different 
bodies. And with the prefect title, tradition is tradition, if you 
start picking 2 males now, how can you not pick 2 females, and so 
on, and then what would happen when triplets come to Hogwarts?

But I could see Ginny as prefect. She seems to have leadership 
qualities, and good relations with students from other houses. Ginny 
seems strong enough of a person to exercise some control as well, 
and be taken seriously for it. (Hermione's personality of being 
little miss know-it-all makes people not so apt to listen to her, 
whereas Ginny has a different way about her. I can't think of the 
adjective I want to use now...not that it makes her a better person 
than Hermione, but you know what I mean. And I know that by giving 
Ginny the badge this doesn't mean Hermione loses it! I'm not using 
that comparison for that reason. Just to show that Ginny could be 
good for the job out of her grade!)

Just a few of the thoughts that ran through my mind :)

Jaimee




From jrc241 at psu.edu  Tue Mar 23 20:41:45 2004
From: jrc241 at psu.edu (pennstgrle)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 20:41:45 -0000
Subject: 91615-Nickname,/Prefect/Flint/Losing/Traitor/Bertha/Animagus-Patronus/Ages/
In-Reply-To: <c3m0cc+ekh7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3q7e9+fsm3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93768

> John Bowman wrote in
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/92520 :
> 
> << JKR is referring to Hermione's patronus form. Or is she? Could 
she
> have let slip that Hermione is also an Animagus? The question was
> asked about Animagi not Patroni (presuming these are their plural
> forms). Could JKR mess up like that on purpose? >>
> 
> I don't think JKR was hinting that Hermione is an Animagus. I think
> she simply takes it for granted that the form of a person's 
Patronus
> is the same form that would take as an Animagus. To me that is
> illogical: she seems to be assuming that always what protects 
people
> is themselves, not their parents nor their faith in God nor their
> commitment to justice and/or the rule of law nor their luck nor 
their
> powers of deception.
> 

Jaimee:

I think that in the interview, JK was just saying that her favorite 
animal is an otter, and that is the animal she would hope to turn 
into if she were a witch.

But since she isn't, she used that animal as Hermione's patronus, 
since she has given Hermione many of her own qualities.

Like you said above, I have always thought a person's Patronus 
reflecting something that makes that person feel safe and protected--
like Harry's stag being symbolic of his father. Which made me think 
of something interesting, do you think JK would've given Hermione 
the otter Patronus not only because it's JK's favorite animal, but 
also, perhaps subconsciously, to show that *she* is protecting 
Hermione. Could this foreshadow that Hermione is going to come out 
of the series alive and well? well...maybe not *well*, since so much 
will happen before the end--more battles, more deaths, more 
trauma...but as well as can be expected?

Just a thought.

Jaimee





From pt4ever at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 23 20:55:10 2004
From: pt4ever at yahoo.com (JoAnna)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 20:55:10 -0000
Subject: Seeing Sirius Again (was: Re: Sirius/Tonks)
In-Reply-To: <495A161B83F7544AA943600A98833B5303554E14@mimas.fareham.climax.co.uk>
Message-ID: <c3q87e+tbtl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93769

Rachael said:  
<<<Priori Incantatem happened to her wand, it is possible that a 
form of Sirius would come out, just like Harry's parents in GOF.  I 
wonder if there are other ways to initiate Priori Incantatem besides 
brother wands fighting against each other, and if so, will it occur 
in books 6 or 7.>>>

James replied:
<<<This is possible, the Priori Incantatem spell can be used 
directly on a wand to make it regurgitate. Remember the scene in GoF 
where the spell was used to show the after image of the dark mark.>>>


JoAnna responds:

I don't think that Sirius could appear in this form.  IIRC, Sirius 
is standing on the Platform which holds the archway and the veil.  
Bellatrix hits Sirius with a spell described as "a jolt of red 
light" - so probably not Avada Kedavra, more likely Stupefy or 
Crucio.  Sirius is hit by the spell directly in the chest; the force 
of the spell causes him to lose his balance and he falls into the 
archway, beyond the veil.  He was not killed as a direct result of 
the spell, but by a loss of balanced caused by the effects of the 
spell.  (I don't have my copy of OotP handy, so please feel free to 
correct me if I am indeed mistaken.)

Technically Bellatrix's spell did not kill Sirius, so if Priori 
Incantatem was performed on her wand, Sirius' shadow wouldn't 
appear - only the ghost of the spell itself.

I think that Sirius may return in the form of a portrait(s), perhaps 
a pair that Sirius and/or Dumbledore commissioned so they could have 
one hanging in Grimmauld Place and one for Harry to keep at the 
Dursley's during summer vacations.  Just a guess, though.

- JoAnna




From cristina_angelo at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 23 18:08:54 2004
From: cristina_angelo at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Cristina_Rebelo_=C2ngelo?=)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 19:08:54 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lupin's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c3pe2e+dvlr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAA0V0yEVLY906TVPQaP+YzycKAAAAQAAAA8+tGHvV8p06IQNnKCX4GAQEAAAAA@yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93770

 
 
 
 
 

 Anna said: 
In OoP, when Harry breaks into Umbridge's office to talk to Sirius 
about what he had seen in the pensieve, Lupin  says:

"Harry, there is nothing so important as you learning Occulemency!" 
said Lupin sternly.  Do you understand me?  Nothing!" 

When I reread  OoP, reading that line made me wonder if, on a 
subconscious level,  Lupin  harbors any resentment toward Harry 
because Harry's failure to learn Occulemency ultimately lead to 
Sirius' death.   
 
 
Cristina here:
How can Lupin harbor resentment because of something that still hasn't
happened? I took that as Lupin doing the grown up thing, actually something
Lilly would do rather than James: Harry is in danger, and Occlumency will
protect him. When kids don't want to do something they don't like, but that
is good for him, even the most important (imagine Harry as a 3 year old, and
Lilly telling him "hide" because Voldemort is coming, and Harry whining.
Lilly would be stern. Not that she would resent herself and her husband
being killed because Harry wouldn't hide, but because he HAD to do it).
 
Everybody is on the edge because they fear Voldemort is reading inside
Harry's mind. Eventually, that happening almost kills Harry (at MoM). That's
what they fear. And the only weapon is Occlumency. I don't read anything
else in it.


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From jrc241 at psu.edu  Tue Mar 23 21:30:35 2004
From: jrc241 at psu.edu (pennstgrle)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 21:30:35 -0000
Subject: Just a question....
In-Reply-To: <c3mm5m+sv4k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3qa9r+e00h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93771

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "djrfdh" <djrfdh at y...> wrote:

> I'm sure most of you have either read, or seen, Lord Of The 
> Rings...is it just me, or has anyone else noticed certain 
> similarities between that and Harry Potter? There are many things 
> that are related....take the scene where the goblins surround the 
> Fellowship in the Halls of Moriah...reminds me of Harry and Ron 
> surrounded by the spiders! Then, of course, there's also the giant 
> spider that Frodo and Sam face....(Harry and Ron again!)
> 
> I am,at present, going through both sets of books to see how many 
> things I can find that are related....
> 
> Gandalf protects Frodo....Dumbledore protects Harry....they are 
both 
> orphans and must find their own way in the world...."though they 
do 
> not know the way"....very interesting!


Jaimee:

And I don't know if Harry and Frodo are exactly the right parallel 
to make, especially with the coming of the prophecy.

Yes, they are both little, and with both looks are deceiving because 
they are very strong and can handle a lot. And both of them have 
parents that die and end up living with uncles. (Whoa...starting to 
see Star Wars parallels again, too!)

But I almost think the Harry Potter character reminds me more of 
Aragorn, especially because of the prophecy. Think about 
it...Aragorn is hidden away in Rivendale all of his life. His father 
is dead, and he knows nothing about his heritage or anything like 
that (like Harry). Then once he reaches manhood (nearing age 20 
according to the appedix, right?) he is told who he is and that it 
is probably up to him to lead the fight to save Middle Earth (Like 
what just happened to Harry in Book 6)! 

Also, Elrond is really Aragorns great-great-great-great-great-great-
great-great-great-(you get the picture) uncle and Gandalf,similar to 
Dumbledore, is organizing the whole fight against Evil and becomes 
very much a mentor to Aragorn.

I would ask if you think Harry is going to roam around in disguise 
for the next 40 years to learn about the earth and the nature of it 
inhabitants and battle strategies and what makes good leaders and 
such, but Harry could never do that. Why training for his duty was 
easier for Aragorn is the Dark Lord didn't know his 
identity....Sauron feared he was out there, but didn't know who he 
was. Voldemort definitely knows who Harry is--especially since Harry 
looks like his father and has the distinguishing characteristic of a 
big scar on his forehead.

Harry, to me, embodies many of the qualities I admire in many of the 
heroes in LOTR, and in many other hero epics. 

(And I would have to say that, now don't get mad at me, Harry 
reminds me more of Luke Skywalker than Frodo. (1) the support system 
of the trio with a few other here and there. (2)the way Harry is 
sort of thrown into battle before he is ready--even by fighting the 
troll in Book 1, reminds me of how Luke, with the help of Han, save 
Leia from the Death Star prison cell before Luke really knows what 
he's getting himself into. (3) And although Frodo is very brave, he 
really doesn't have...what do I want to call it...talent(?) in 
anything. Luke and Harry are both good flyers, and they hold their 
own in battle.)

But, although I see qualities in Harry typical of many epic-modeled 
heroes, the way JK presents Harry's qualities in combination with 
the world JK has created around Harry has placed him in good company 
at the top of my Favorite Heroes List. Every book has made me even 
more proud of him--PROUD! Like Harry's really my friend or brother 
or son or something!

Harry Rocks!

Jaimee ;)

PS. I wouldn't go so far to lump Sam and Ron together either. Yes, 
both are very loyal to and supportive of their respective friends, 
but Sam really does have servant tendencies Ron does not. And Sam, 
more like Harry, finds him self involved in a world that was more of 
a childhood story or fairytale to him. Ron grew up a wizard. And 
although I foresee Ron playing a huge part in helping and supporting 
Harry in what must be done for the greater good, I don't see Ron 
carrying--figuratively and/or physically--Harry like Sam has to 
carry Frodo. 

(For some reason, Sam and Aragorn are my favorite heroes in LOTR. 
Where Harry and Hermione hold that title for me in HP so far.

OK! I'm really done this time!) TTFN!





From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Tue Mar 23 21:45:12 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 21:45:12 -0000
Subject: Horse Feathers
In-Reply-To: <c3opsd+cbj4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3qb58+tacs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93772

> One other piece of information that we are not privy to is whether 
> Voldemort's wand chose him or was chosen.  

Snip of discussion of power of phoenix feather wands
> 
> My theory is that Voldemort chose the phoenix feather wand knowing 
> that it came from Fawkes.  Fawkes then gave a second feather in an 
> effort to combat the first wand.  Since the second feather was 
given 
> for the express purpose of fighting Voldemort it was drawn to the 
> person who Voldemort had marked (chosen) as his enemy and his 
equal.  
> Not quite a coincidence at all if you think about it that way.
> 
> This thread also brings up another thought for discussion.  What do 
> you think happened with the third feather that we know Fawkes has 
> released?  
> 
>        "There was a flash of flame in the very middle of the office,
>     leaving behind a single golden feather that floated gently to 
the
>     floor.
>        "It is Fawkes's warning," said Dumbledore, catching the 
>     feather as it fell."   (OotP US edition, Chapter 22, page 474)
> 
> Is there now the possibility of a third Fawkes wand coming into 
play?
> 
> Audrey

My 2 knuts:

In CoS, Tom Riddle did not at first identify Fawkes as a Phoenix when 
he saw him, he even ridiculed his appearance as a "song bird".  And 
he did not remember all of the properties of a Pheonix, he even 
allowed Fawkes to repair Harry's arm, thus allowing Harry to destroy 
him.  If a Phoenix feather core is the most powerful, but the wand 
does not work for you, then it isn't powerful at all.  I think the 
whole point is that a wizard must allow the "fates" to dictate the 
wand they use and then they will fulfill their potential.  Fooling 
with the process can limit the wizard's potential as they are not 
using the "right" wand, Phoenix feather or not.

As far as Fawkes dropping feathers everywhere, I don't think they 
have any magical powers once they are dropped for a different purpose.
It seems to me that the language "gave" that Olivander used when 
describing how the feather was procured for the wands indicates that 
Fawkes relinquished his feathers for the purpose of wand making.  As 
another poster already indicated, there are more than one Phoenix 
around since there are other wands with Phoenix cores. 

IMHO, the wand chose Harry simply because it was the right wand for 
him.  He was the "chosen" child, the one "marked as an equal", the 
one the fates had assigned the task of bringing down Voldemort.  
Personally, I think when it is all over Harry will be chosing a new 
wand because that one will be destroyed.  Maybe the next book will be 
called Harry Potter and the Destruction of the Wand as Voldie works 
to break the thing in two and destroy Fawkes so that no others can be 
made....who knows? ;)

Sue




From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net  Tue Mar 23 21:54:57 2004
From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 15:54:57 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] FILK:  Behind Red Eyes
References: <c3q0n3+rr66@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001401c41121$7beae0c0$05030f04@dslverizon.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 93773

great filk--glad to see yoiu use the original veriosn (even though Limp Biskit's veriosn is pretty cool too)

*************************************

Anne/Silverthorne
Silverthorne.Dragon at verizon.net (Nights and Weekends)
Anne-TMC-RCVG.Campbell at tenetheath.com (6am-3pm American Central, Mon-Fri.)
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Eustace_Scrubb 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 12:46 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] FILK: Behind Red Eyes


  Continuing to mine the collected works of Pete Townshend...

  Behind Red Eyes (adapted from Behind Blue Eyes, off Who's Next)
  (Lament sung by Harry sometime late in OOTP)

  I have seen what it's like
  To be the bad man
  To be the mad man
  Behind red eyes

  I have sensed what it's like
  When he's angry
  at the failings
  of his dark allies

  And my dreams
  They aren't as empty
  As I wish that they could be

  I've spent hours, in a long hallway
  with a locked door
  beckoning me

  No one knows what it's like
  To feel his feelings
  Like I do
  What must I do?

  No one else knows his joy
  Or his anger
  Most of my schoolmates
  Don't think it's true.

  But my dreams
  They aren't as empty
  As I wish that they could be

  I've heard Rookwood telling secrets
  to further vengeance
  that's aimed at me.

  When my scar hurts me, don't tell Sirius
  'cause he might panic and lose his cool
  If I tell Ron or Hermione
  They may just shrug and I'll feel like a fool.

  Sometimes I feel I'm possessed by evil
  I see the Headmaster as though I am a snake
  If our eyes meet, I feel I should strike him
  Though he's the last person that I should hate

  I have seen what it's like
  To be the bad man
  To be the mad man
  Behind red eyes



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From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Tue Mar 23 21:59:04 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 21:59:04 -0000
Subject: why doesn't Voldy use a time-turner???
In-Reply-To: <c3p201+11273@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3qbv8+bv5e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93774

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kashelkar" <kashelkar at y...> 
wrote:
> Why Voldy doesn't use a time turner to visit the history and do 
> things he wanted to do for so long??  like, maybe killing HP? or 
> maybe even listen to the prophecy (he could use some disguise for 
> that)?  Alternatively, he could command one of his DEs do such 
things 
> for him.

Sue's take on the whole Voldemort/MoM "thing"

Hind sight is 20/20.  WE know it didn't work, WE can see what is 
happening and all the ways Voldemort could have succeeded without 
detection but we know things Volde doesn't.  As has been stated so 
many times, Voldemort is incredibly arrogant and he doesn't want to 
get his hands dirty unless he has to.  He sends other people to do 
that.  I personally doubt he planned anything.  "Get Potter into the 
MOM and GET MY PROPHECY" was probably the extent of his involvement 
(after he failed to get in there as a snake anyway).  "The Plan" 
belonged to others, probabley L. Malfoy because he lived at the MoM 
anyway, and HE is certainly arrogant enough to think he could get 
whatever he wanted without a problem.  For all we know, the person 
who let Malfoy Sr. know Harry was on his way was Malfoy Jr.

Didn't get to proof read, hope it isn't too bad :)
Sue




From joj at rochester.rr.com  Tue Mar 23 18:33:15 2004
From: joj at rochester.rr.com (coolbeans3131)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 18:33:15 -0000
Subject: "A Little Romance"
In-Reply-To: <c3pv8j+drt7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3pvtb+4809@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93775

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Robert Jones" 
<jones.r.h.j at w...> wrote:
> In her recent interview, JKR was asked if Harry would fall for 
> another girl or would be too busy for romance?  She answered 
> that "he'll be busy but what is life without a little romance?"  
But 
> I doubt romance will be a prominent part of Book 6, and shippers 
who 
> analyze each syllable for clues are going to disappointed.  JKR 
will 
> pay a lot more attention to the plot about LV and make romance a 
> minor side issue at best.  These aren't teenage romance novels, 
> afterall.  So there will be little romance.

Joj writes:
I don't think anyone here will disagree with you on that.  The 
question is will it be a little side plot, or will it play an 
important part in the overall plot?  Will jealousies and 
misunderstandings change things?  I think there will be some sort of 
triangle between the trio that will impact the overall plot.  Will it 
be what the Harry Potter series has been all about? No, but I do 
think it will be a crucial link, which is why JKR is so mysterious 
about it.




From gbannister10 at aol.com  Tue Mar 23 21:18:16 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 21:18:16 -0000
Subject: Horse Feathers
In-Reply-To: <c3ptaq+cjuf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3q9io+5iv1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93776

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "JoAnna" <pt4ever at y...> wrote:
> >  
> > vmonte responds:
> > 
> > I've always had the feeling that Olivander was Flamel.
> > 
> > vmonte
> 
> JoAnna:
> 
> Doubtful.  In SS/PS, Dumbledore tells Harry, "[Nicolas Flamel and 
> his wife, Perenelle] have enough Elixir stored to set their affairs 
> in order; then yes, they will die."  (don't have my book available, 
> but it's in the last or second-to-last chapter).  I have the 
feeling 
> that Nicolas and Perenelle died shortly after the events of SS/PS, 
> after the stone was destroyed.  


Geoff:
Pretty good! It's word perfect. The location is the last chapter 
("The Man with Two Faces" p.215 UK edition)


Joanna: 
> Ollivander, however, is present for the Weighing of the Wands in 
> GoF.  I sincerely doubt it took two-three years for Nicolas & 
> Perenelle Flamel to set their affairs in order, and if so I doubt 
> NicolasFlamel!Ollivander would continue working at his wand shop if 
> he had so much to do.

Geoff:
In the book which Hermione "got out of the library weeks ago for a 
bit of light reading" (PS "Nicholas Flamel" p.161 UK edition), it 
states:
"...but the only Stone currently in existence belongs to Mr.Nicholas 
Flamel, the noted alchemist and opera-lover. Mr.Flamel, who 
celebrated his six hundrd and sixty-fifth birthday last year...." 
(same page)

This raises two points. The first, a minor one, is that we don't know 
when this book was published ? it is described on the preceding page 
as "an enormous old book", so presumably NF is a bit older by now.

Second. How old is Ollivander? I presume he is not old enough to have 
founded the shop, because that would make him centuries older than 
Old Nick and how would he achieve that? 





From ekrbdg at msn.com  Tue Mar 23 16:59:55 2004
From: ekrbdg at msn.com (Kimberly)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 11:59:55 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] MarioMort
References: <c3p8cs+4u9d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <021d01c410f8$4e746040$97e0f943@hppav>

No: HPFGUIDX 93777

(Jo's comments)
<<However, what if Voldemort isn't the ultimate bad guy in this tale? I 
think he could merely be a pawn played by an even more evil overlord 
(cue Slytherin) just as the DE are to him. 
<tiny snip>
 It's 
just like Super Mario where you've just about managed to kill the 
guys protecting the huge baddie, and in your last breath you get in a 
lucky shot, only for a bigger, steel reinforced and infinitely more 
evil enemy to make an apperance.

I'm sure JKR wouldn't be so tacky, or if she would then it wouldn't 
appear to be tacky at all, but it's an idea.>>

(Kimberly's comments)
Looking at it from a Mario POV, I'd have to agree that it's "similar".   However, as for Voldemort not being the ultimate bad guy, I disagree.   Just as in Mario you go through level after level, each level presenting itself with another one of Bowser's underlings if you will.    Throughout the game you're well aware that although you're battling a specific underling, there's a bigger force out there that you know you will eventually have to reckon with.   Your immediate goal is beating them but in the back of your mind your ultimate goal is beating Bowser (winning the game, saving the world, etc.).  You have Mario/Luigi, Yoshi, etc. and Bowser/his followers.  It appears to me very similar to the situation between Harry/Good guys and Voldemort/Bad guys.       We have Harry battling an assortment of Voldemort followers and of course his immediate goal is to get through that "task" or situation but he knows ultimately, he must face Voldemort.  

Kimberly, who hopes she didn't ramble too much

 


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From ekrbdg at msn.com  Tue Mar 23 14:35:06 2004
From: ekrbdg at msn.com (Kimberly)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 09:35:06 -0500
Subject: Ginny's animagus
References: <c3ne9q+q4dc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <013d01c410e4$0a6fbf20$97e0f943@hppav>

No: HPFGUIDX 93778

 


  > > vmonte writes:
  > > 
  > > I think Ginny Weasley is going to become an Animagus.  Just a 
  feeling.


  (Sue wrote)
  <<Has to be a cat.  She is affiliated with cats constantly in the 
  books.  She sits like a cat, hisses like a cat, curls up like a cat.  
  The only thing we haven't heard is if she ever purrs.>>


  (Kimberly's comments)
  I was looking through the photo section of the group and noticed the Weasley picture.    There's Percy in his robes/Prefect badge, Fred, George, and Ron.    That would be the Weasley's attending Hogwarts that year except Ginny.   However, at the bottom of the picture, to the left of Ron is a cat posing ever so nicely for the camera.   Do the Weasley's have a cat or is this a hint from JKR ?    

  Kimberly (hoping this isn't one of those "that's so obvious, everyone knows that" revelations)  


  ---
  Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
  Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
  Version: 6.0.634 / Virus Database: 406 - Release Date: 3/19/2004

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 23 23:09:24 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 23:09:24 -0000
Subject: Snape, trying very hard not to smile? Or is he just allergic to cats?
In-Reply-To: <c3oiuj+jt6v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3qg34+ikeo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93779

> I always felt that Snape knew exactly what was happening with the 
> Chamber.  He is, after all, spending a lot of time in "Malfoy's 
> lap".  I just thought he was amused that this is where the Basilisk 
> started, with an obnoxious cat (I don't think any of them knew what 
> was in the Chamber, not even Malfoy, BTW).  Snape is quite flattered 
> at the young Malfoy's suggestion that he become headmaster after DD's 
> departure. He certainly didn't protest the idea or defend DD.
> 
> I also wonder if he was wearing a mask at the QWC, and flipping 
> Muggles as an earlier post suggested.
> 
> Sue [waving to Carol and Susan and humming Tip Toe Through the
Tulips quietly to herself ;)]


Hi, Sue. I'd really like to know how much Lucius Malfoy knew about
that diary before he put it in Ginny's cauldron and, like you, how
much Snape knew or guessed. He certainly had Draco cast the
Serpensortia spell on purpose, as if he somehow figured that Harry
might be a Parselmouth, yet he seems surprised that he really is. I
don't think Snape is Malfoy's lap dog *now* (it doesn't make sense
considering the meaning of the phrase), but he definitely was still in
Malfoy's good graces at that point (doing a good job of fooling him,
IMO). His smirking reaction to Draco's flattery is, I think, part of
the pose. And of course, Draco is also playing up to *him*, trying to
retain his status as apparent favorite.

I really, really hope Snape wasn't part of that Muggle-baiting
incident. I think he knows how it feels to be upside down with your
underwear on display and wouldn't want to put anyone else in that
position (literally or figuratively). Like DD, he doesn't seem to have
been present at the QWC, but there's no canon to indicate that he was
absent, either.

Suggested cure for getting "Tiptoe through the Tulips" out of your
head--watch the teaser trailer for PoA. You'll be humming "Something
Wicked This Way Comes"!

Carol, with apologies to the List Elves for straying onto the movies
for a moment




From jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net  Tue Mar 23 23:26:09 2004
From: jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net (Robert Jones)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 23:26:09 -0000
Subject: "A Little Romance"
In-Reply-To: <c3pvtb+4809@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3qh2h+fmll@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93780

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "coolbeans3131" <joj at r...> 
wrote:
> I don't think anyone here will disagree with you on that.  The 
> question is will it be a little side plot, or will it play an 
> important part in the overall plot?  Will jealousies and 
misunderstandings change things?  I think there will be some sort of 
> triangle between the trio that will impact the overall plot.  Will 
it be what the Harry Potter series has been all about? No, but I do 
> think it will be a crucial link, which is why JKR is so mysterious 
> about it.

Bobby: I agree.  I wouldn't be surprised by some romance if it is 
integral to the plot.  For example, maybe Ron will finally work up 
the nerve to ask Hermione out, and Harry will get jealous.  Not that 
Harry has shown any romantic interest in Hermione, but like when Ron 
got the Prefect badge: Harry hadn't thought about it but became 
jealous of Ron.  If Hermione and Ron start dating, Harry might 
ask "why didn't she pick me?" or "how come I don't have anyone?"  
That jealousy might lead to a break up in the trio -- which would be 
important to the development of the plot line.

I'm just saying there wouldn't be any gratuitous romance, as it were.





From BrwNeil at aol.com  Tue Mar 23 22:24:30 2004
From: BrwNeil at aol.com (BrwNeil at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 17:24:30 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "A Little Romance"
Message-ID: <110.2fba5109.2d92131e@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93781

In a message dated 3/23/2004 5:10:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
joj at rochester.rr.com writes:
Joj writes:
I don't think anyone here will disagree with you on that.  The 
question is will it be a little side plot, or will it play an 
important part in the overall plot?  Will jealousies and 
misunderstandings change things?  I think there will be some sort of 
triangle between the trio that will impact the overall plot.  Will it 
be what the Harry Potter series has been all about? No, but I do 
think it will be a crucial link, which is why JKR is so mysterious 
about it.
I totally agree with both of you.  It is an adventure story, so that takes 
front stage with a romance like Harry's with Cho being just a small side plot.  
If, however, Hermione dates either boy, I don't think it will be that small of 
a side plot anymore.  Any dating has to affect the trio even if the second 
boy is 100% okay with it.  Two dating makes the third ,odd man out.



Neil

Read and discuss Hogwarts Exposed and its sequel at 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HogwartsExposed/
Stories also available at http://portkey.org/ author Neil, 
http://www.schnoogle.com/ author Neil, http://www.fanfiction.net/~neil1 author Neil1 and 
http://www.adultfanfiction.net/ author Neil.
Chapter eighteen of Hogwarts Too Exposed - A Slytherin Among Us has been 
posted. Look for chapter nineteen April 5, 2004


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From EnsTren at aol.com  Tue Mar 23 23:54:21 2004
From: EnsTren at aol.com (EnsTren at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 18:54:21 -0500
Subject: Magic books (was: Re: Horse Feathers)
Message-ID: <52D5CD02.724DF2FB.00170183@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93782

In a message dated 3/23/2004 4:18:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, gbannister10 writes:

> Geoff:
> In the book which Hermione "got out of the library weeks ago for a
> bit of light reading" (PS "Nicholas Flamel" p.161 UK edition), it
> states:
> "...but the only Stone currently in existence belongs to Mr.Nicholas
> Flamel, the noted alchemist and opera-lover. Mr.Flamel, who
> celebrated his six hundrd and sixty-fifth birthday last year...."
> (same page)
> 
> This raises two points. The first, a minor one, is that we don't know
> when this book was published  it is described on the preceding page
> as "an enormous old book", so presumably NF is a bit older by now.
> 
> Second. How old is Ollivander? I presume he is not old enough to have
> founded the shop, because that would make him centuries older than
> Old Nick and how would he achieve that?
> 

I'm very busy at the moment (ah the joys of finishing up a twelve page paper) and on a library (tiny little things) computer.

But the comemnt:

"an enormous old book", so presumably NF is a bit older by now.

That struck something in me.

NF was a real guy, so by referancing the date the Real NF was born, with the year that the first book was supposed to take place in, and the date provided in the "enormous old book"

Well, if it was all matched up correctly, then wizarding books could be auto updating (thus eliminating the need for sequencial).

That could be a plot point, the hogwarts, a History, updating to include Harry's exploits for instance.

It could also be a red herring, or another JKR math victim.


Nemi, ahh the library is going to close!



From a_b_desert_king at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 24 00:14:08 2004
From: a_b_desert_king at hotmail.com (a_b_desert_king)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 00:14:08 -0000
Subject: Snape, trying very hard not to smile? Or is he just allergic to cats?
In-Reply-To: <c3qg34+ikeo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3qjsg+glka@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93783

Sue wrote:

> > I also wonder if he was wearing a mask at the QWC, and flipping 
> > Muggles as an earlier post suggested.

Carol wrote: 

> I really, really hope Snape wasn't part of that Muggle-baiting
> incident. I think he knows how it feels to be upside down with your
> underwear on display and wouldn't want to put anyone else in that
> position (literally or figuratively). Like DD, he doesn't seem to  
have been present at the QWC, but there's no canon to indicate that 
he was absent, either.

Heather Says:

Until this moment, I have always felt that Snape was likely involved 
in the Muggle-baiting and was the one who flipped Mrs Roberts upside-
down in mid-air.  But suddenly, I realized that it was more likely 
to be Wormtail under that mask.  He would have been imitating his 
well loved pranks as a teen and has shown himself to be a part of 
that kind of humiliation.  We have no canon to say that Wormtail and 
LV were actually at the campsite following the QWC, but we do have 
LV's statement that he was well aware of the QWC, and that Barty 
Crouch Jr was present.  He states in GoF (The Death Eaters) that he 
chose to wait until after the Cup was over:

'...then, of course, there was the Quidditch World Cup... I thought 
his protection might be weaker there, away from his relations and 
Dumbledore, but I was not yet strong enough to attempt kidnap in the 
midst of a horde of Ministry wizards."'  GoF  pg 570 Canadian Ed 2000

He doesn't actually say that he was present at the QWC, but then it 
implies that he was present and realized once he got there that his 
mission would be impossible to accomplish.  If LV and Wormtail were 
actually present at the campsite, it is possible that Wormtail wore 
his mask to "hide" in the crowd, and then slipped in to stir up some 
muggle-baiting at LV's command to see how many DEs would be faithful 
and jump into the game.  That would clear Snape's good name....  :)

Heather






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 24 00:45:57 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 00:45:57 -0000
Subject: Underage Magic during war & at the MoM
In-Reply-To: <d7.6752fb6.2d917d76@aol.com>
Message-ID: <c3qlo5+8mn9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93784

> ~Eloise
> Who also wonders why there was no immediate consequence to the Ton
Tongue Toffee incident, which *was* a piece of underage magic
performed on a Muggle in a house which seems closely monitored. 


I'm still not convinced that the MoM knows *who* is performing the
magic, but Arthur must have had some way of covering up his own spells
for "sorting out" the problem--or possibly he informed the MoM that
he'd be picking up Harry that day, so they knew that an adult wizard
would be in the house and magic that day could be ignored. As for the
candy that Fred dropped, Dudley's picking it up and eating it was not
an act of underage magic. The magic to create it had already been
performed, either at Hogwarts or The Burrow, where so much magic is
being performed all the time that F and G's high jinks probably go
unnoticed. 

Also, even though magic was performed in the house on that day (and
the MoM didn't necessarily know who performed it), no Muggles other
than the Dursleys were present. As someone (Viridis?) pointed out, the
MoM must know that the Dursleys know that Harry is a wizard. After
all, they've been sending him to Hogwarts all these years and
Petunia's own sister was a witch. Also it was only Aunt Marge, not
Vernon, Petunia or Dudley, who had to have her memory modified after
the "blowing up" incident. So until the parting of the ways between
Fudge and DD, I think the MoM was willing to let certain things slide.
The only magic of any importance was that performed in front of the
Masons or Aunt Marge, and those incidents were "sorted out" fairly
quickly.

Again, the Ton-tongue toffee incident wasn't technically underage
magic but it did lead to magic being performed in the house. Either
Arthur had some way of covering it up, as I think he must have, or the
MoM knew the magic wasn't Harry's, which doesn't fit with the Dobby
incident.

Carol
Carol




From inky_quill at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 24 01:40:07 2004
From: inky_quill at hotmail.com (Julie)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 01:40:07 -0000
Subject: Uncle Vernon Tiptoe Through the Tulips (was: Mrs. Figg's 'Cat among the Pixies'
In-Reply-To: <c3nb7q+ppd4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3qotn+dhka@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93785


> Neri : "Uncle Vernon [snip]... hummed "Tiptoe through the Tulips" 
as he worked, and jumped at small noises."
> 
> Potioncat: [snip]
> > In the late '60's or early '70's there was a comedian in the 
> > U.S. who played a ukulele and sang "Tiptoe Through the Tulips" in 
a very high voice.  His name was Tiny Tim and he was tall and thin 
> > and had long stringy hair and a hooked nose.>>>

Oh my, never thought of a physical resemblance (shudders).  My family 
always watched Rowan & Martin's Laugh-in on TV, and the humor was 
definately wacky and over the top.  I won't annoy anyone with my 
conservative father's opinion of Tiny Tim.  Since I've grown up, I've 
been under the impression that anytime Tiny Tim and  "Tip Toe" are 
refered to, its an allusion to something being amazingly incongruous 
and ridiculus in a 'poor fellow's lot it' sort of way.

Inky/Julie




From navarro198 at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 24 02:01:51 2004
From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 02:01:51 -0000
Subject: The Podmore Connection--Percy as DD's Spy
In-Reply-To: <c3piki+g20m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3qq6f+9120@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93786

Pippin: 
Well, Arthur was obviously wrong, because Percy continued his upward 
rise even after he broke ties with his family. 

Bookworm:
Percy didn't continue to rise after breaking with his family. He 
broke with his family because of his promotion. He stayed in the 
position of Junior Assistant to the Minister during the whole book.

Pippin:
Exactly. If he was only given the position so Fudge could spy on the 
Weasleys and Dumbledore, why did Fudge let him continue in it when 
he'd broken off relations with them? If Fudge wanted him to spy on 
the Weasleys, wouldn't he have ordered Percy to make up with his 
family and visit his poor dad in the hospital?

Bookworm: 
That's assuming that is the reason Percy got the job in the first 
place. Percy is like a junior Fudge ? they are kindred souls. I 
think like recognized like and Fudge took on an apprentice.

Pippin:
Are you sure he's not *acting*?  We know he's a good actor, since he 
managed to conceal his relationship with Penelope for an entire 
year. Percy is definitely one of the sneaky Weasleys,  like Fred, 
George, and Ginny. Ice mice wouldn't melt in his mouth. <g>

Bookworm:
I agree Percy was sneaky about his relationship with Penelope, but 
that doesn't mean he is a good actor. We only found out he had a 
secret when he thought Ginny was about to tell.

Pippin:
What if Percy had second thoughts after the argument, found that his 
family had already left The Burrow, contacted Dumbledore to relay 
his apologies, and was recruited as a spy instead?

Bookworm:
Did the family leave the Burrow? Molly wasn't at Grimauld Place when 
the kids got there after Arthur's injury. Dumbledore hints that she 
was at the Burrow: "`But she may already know...that excellent clock 
of hers...'" (p471).

Pippin:
Percy left home the same night as the argument. "It was the first 
week back after term ended," said Ron, "We were *about to come and 
join the Order.* Percy came home and told us he'd been promoted." 
(emphasis mine)  So if Percy tried to get in touch with his family 
immediately after that, he'd have found them gone.  According to 
Ron, Percy said he'd decided his loyalties were with the Ministry 
rather than Dumbledore. But Dumbledore believes in second chances, 
you 
know. 

Bookworm:
I'm still not sure why he couldn't find his parents. There were 
several references to Molly or Arthur going back to the Burrow, so a 
note could have been left there.  And Percy definitely knew where 
his father worked! <g> If he really is sneaky he could have gotten a 
note to his father somehow. But given the way he snubbed his father 
and Harry and the enthusiasm he showed when Fudge was around, I 
don't think he tried.

Bookworm:
We know that Percy cares for his family (see his reaction to Ron's 
return after the second task in GoF) but, IMO, he is not close to 
any of them. He feels unappreciated by them. I can easily see how 
his stiff-necked pride and ambition would have him desperate for 
Fudge's approval. 

Pippin:
Or Dumbledore's? "Mad?" said Percy airily. "He's a genius! Best 
wizard in the world! But he is a bit mad, yes. Potatoes, Harry/" -
PS/SS ch. 7.

Bookworm:
That was four `years' ago when all was well in the wizarding world. 
As you quoted Ron above, Percy sided with the Ministry instead of 
Dumbledore. I think if Percy opens his eyes and sees what Fudge is 
really like (and maybe he is doing that right now <g>) he will be 
able to reconcile with his family. At least with Arthur. Molly and 
some of the others will be a tougher sell.  

Ravenclaw Bookworm 






From inky_quill at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 24 02:13:19 2004
From: inky_quill at hotmail.com (Julie)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 02:13:19 -0000
Subject: Halfbloods in Slytherin?  Photo section list of students
In-Reply-To: <c3o6ps+ctnk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3qqrv+7fh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93787

 {Majorly snipped) Pippin and Annemehr were discussing the photo 
section file "Harry Potter" with slides of a book with a list of 
students.<<<<<< [Pippin said]proceed ahead to pics #14 and #15, 
looking at the list of students, look at the symbols in the middle 
column, which seem to stand for muggle/wizard origins.  >>>>>>>

Never looked in that file until your comments refered to it.  What is 
this book and any idea what the first column of circles and filled in 
squares refers to?  

Inky/Julie




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 24 01:51:29 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 01:51:29 -0000
Subject: Bellatrix's speech patterns (Was: Sirius/Tonks)
In-Reply-To: <Sea2-F54OYqBUbUc77l0000d2aa@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <c3qpj1+ne1r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93788

Kathy wrote:
One of the most confusing statements in Oop, for me, was when
Bellatrix says that she was busy fighting the Animagus Black. <snip>

Allie wrote: 
I took that to mean, "I was busy fighting Black, who is an
Animagus." <snip>

Kathy responded:
That is exactly what I always assumed it meant, but it still bothered
me until I looked at it in the following manner. Although I have no
proof, it still makes a little more sence to me that Bella is
referring to Black's Animagus as a form not his own. So, instead of
Bella just saying I was busy fighting Black, she was basically saying
I was fighting someone who looked like Black.(the Tonks theory grew
from there) Even if it may not have been Tonks, I still feel that it
wasn't Sirius <snip>

Carol:
Since I've already pointed out that an animagus form is by definition
an animal, not a person, and Sirius's animagus form is a black dog,
let me try another tack. Bellatrix is stating that she is fighting
"the animagus Black," not fighting someone who has taken on the
animagus Black's form. So I think that Allie's reading, "I was
fighting Black, who is an animagus," is correct. But let's explore a
little further to figure out why she expressed the idea as she did,
instead of saying what we might expect under the circumstances, "I was
 fighting my cousin Sirius," or "I was fighting Sirius Black" if she
doesn't want to acknowledge the relationship.

I think what we should look at here is speech patterns. Bellatrix has
several different ways of speaking: Haughty formality in the Pensieve
scene, where she behaves like a wrongly imprisoned queen; baby talk to
taunt Harry; her normal speech pattern; and the speech she uses in
addressing Voldemort. 

Here are some illustrations to show what I mean.

Pattern 1, haughty formality: "The Dark Lord will rise again, Crouch!
 throw us into Azkaban, we will wait! He will rise again and will come
for us, he will reward us beyond any of his other supporters! We alone
were faithful! We alone tried to find him!" (GoF Am. ed. 595-96) Note
the cadences here and the rhetorical repetition. I can't decide
wherher it sounds more like a biblical passage or something out of
Shakespeare (without the "thees" and "thous").

Pattern 2, her normal speech: "You hear him? *You hear him?* Giving
instructions to the other children as though he thinks of fighting
us!" (OoP Am. ed. 782). This passage, addressed to Malfoy, is normal
(if very angry) colloquial English and sounds no different from what
any other character might say in a similar mood. Malfoy's response,
"Oh, you don't know Potter as I do, Bellatrix," is the same sort of
ordinary English, only calmer. this pattern shows up again when she's
fighting Harry: " What did you come after me for, then? I thought you
were here to avenge my dear cousin!" (810).

Pattern 3, mocking baby talk: "The little baby woke up fwightened and
for what it dweamed was twoo" (OoP Am. ed. 782). No explanation
necessary; she's obviously mocking the "little baby" who dares to
confront her and her fellow Death Eaters.

Pattern 4, extremely formal, almost medieval speech patterns, used
exclusively for addressing Voldemort: "Master, I am sorry. I knew not.
 I was fighting the Animagus Black! Master, you should know--"  "But
Master, he [Dumbledore] is here--he is below--" (OoP Am. ed. 812) "I
knew not" and "the animagus Black" are not Bellatrix's normal mode of
speaking. They are reflections of her veneration for Voldemort, her
Master.

"The Animagus Black," addressed to Voldemort, is part of the servile,
antiquated speech pattern that LV, as a "lord" with medieval
tendencies, expects from his servants. (The DEs in the graveyeard
scene in GoF use a similar style. But to Harry she speaks of Sirius as
"my dear cousin"--informal, sarcastic, ordinary English.

It's clear from the "dear cousin" speech and from another remark by
Bellatrix that she knows full well who she was fighting: "Aaaaah. . .
Did you *love* him, little baby Potter?" (810) She could only be
referring to Sirius, and letting him know that she knows about their
godfather/godson relationship.

To sum up, I don't think we need to assume that Bellatrix means
anything more than the literal meaning of her stilted phrase. She
could have said, "I was fighting my cousin Sirius," but that's not the
right style for a DE addressing Voldemort, and in any case, she's
probably as ashamed of the relationship as Sirius was. And as someone
else has already pointed out, she wanted to leave Harry in no doubt
that she knew about Sirius's "big disguise," as he himself expressed
it earlier.

Carol




From pjcousins at btinternet.com  Wed Mar 24 02:07:34 2004
From: pjcousins at btinternet.com (confusinglyso)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 02:07:34 -0000
Subject: Harry bezoared
Message-ID: <c3qqh6+71ss@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93789

The Potions Master, PS/SS UK paperback

Immediately following Professor Snape's superb introductory speech:-

'Potter!' said Snape suddenly. 'What would I get if I added powdered 
root of
asphodel to an infusion of wormwood?'       Then ...
'Let's try again. Potter, where would you look if I told you to find 
me a bezoar?'

Snape goes on to explain 'For your information, Potter, asphodel and 
wormwood
make a sleeping potion so powerful it is known as the Draught of 
Living Death.
A bezoar is a stone taken from the stomach of a goat and it will save 
you from most poisons.

We are always complaining that Harry asks too few questions. My 
questions here, 'Why did Snape
ask these particular questions and especially why did he ask all of 
them of Harry?'.
I think Snape may have been hoping for Harry to ask 'When would 
anyone want to use a Draught of Living Death?' This would have given 
Snape the chance to relate its use and his key role following the
events at  Godric's Hollow. Of course the whole atmosphere of the 
books would be different so Harry did not ask and he has remained 
suspicious of Snape.

1) My theory in this post follows on from ideas that were forming 
back around Post#91809 where Kneasy grouped several contributors 
posts. My post #91818 then proposed the basis for this enlarged 
theory. I found out later that Kneasy was about to post almost the 
same idea, apologies publicly Kneasy, but reaction from the list soon 
tailed off so I now offer a hopefully more researched theory.

There are many questions that we listees want answered. I, being 
slow, am stuck at the beginning. I am
curious as to how the WW knew that LV had been vaporised at Godric's 
Hollow.

2) Dumbledore's alarm system, ( his golden twelve handed watch has 
been suggested as the alarm system recently, sorry I cannot remember 
who posted), alerted him that an attack had occurred at the Potter 
home. The fact that DD sends Hagrid alone has been mentioned in 
recent posts to indicate that DD's warning system must be very 
sophisticated in that he must be aware that no DE's remain to 
endanger solo Hagrid.
Hagrid arrives at Godric's Hollow to find James and Lily Potter dead 
and infant Harry alive. But,  Harry, as the only living being in the 
house has been possessed by the 'spirit' of LV in an attempt to 
survive the reflected AK curse that has disembodied LV. Whether 
Hagrid is aware at this stage of Harry being Harry!Mort I, of course, 
have no canon for support. Maybe Harry is yelling with pain in a 
weird voice, we know possession is painful from OoP, MoM fight. LV 
stays in Harry rather than cross to Hagrid because of prejudice 
against giants or maybe Hagrid, as half giant, has extra protection 
as witnessed (against spells) in OoP.

3) Hagrid gets Harry to DD at Hogwarts and DD immediately knows that 
Harry is Harry!Mort.
What to do about it? Seal Harry!Mort in a large container, like 
animagus bug Rita Skeeter, until death through suffocation? That's 
despicable thought Daffy Duck - sorry DumbleDore. A sealed container 
is the only way to prevent an escape by LV. DD realises that to save 
Harry he must allow LV to escape, but he can allow the escape under 
his terms.

4) Leaving Harry!Mort in a secure spell bubble (as in OoP, MoM), DD 
sends Hagrid to get an Eagle Owl and asks Snape to prepare a Draught 
of Living Death and also a bezoar.
An eagle owl, in GoF The Madness of Mr Crouch, is used by LV/PP to 
tell Crouch!Moody that Crouch senior has escaped and is heading for 
Hogwarts. DD has spies that seem pretty reliable at telling him where 
LV is in the various books. I am sticking my neck out here, but my 
guess here is that DD has the eagle owl prepared to be able to relay 
messages or images back to DD from wherever LV and the owl are. Maybe 
one of DD's office paintings of previous headmasters is duplicated 
in  miniature and hidden (or tattooed) on the owl.

5) DD returns alone to Harry!Mort with the Eagle Owl (now also a 
spy), the Draught of Living Death, and the bezoar. DD first modifies 
the memories of Harry and LV. Harry can now recall nothing after the 
green flash, and LV is left thinking he could not touch Harry. DD 
removes the spell bubble and feeds Harry the Draught of Living Death 
while saying how sorry he is to have to kill one so young but it is 
for the greater good of the WW. As the poison takes effect, LV leaves 
Harry's body, takes possession of the eagle owl, and escapes. DD then 
administers the antidote, the bezoar, and Harry is once again just 
Harry, except for some odd memory of the name Tom Riddle, 
parceltongue, and maybe some other talents yet to be revealed.

6) The eagle owl is a good choice by DD as it will be unlikely to be 
attacked by another creature and so should provide a good solution to 
LV and yet last as DD's spy. Is this part of the answer to 
Dumbledore's seeming omniscience?

7) Hagrid being involved in these events, I believe is the source of 
the news that LV has vanished, he did tell McGonagall early enough 
for her to be on Privet Drive before Vernon left for work, and he 
cannot keep a secret. I also wonder if Hagrid recovered LV's wand, 
maybe Peter Pettigrew got it back when he was hiding in Hagrid's hut 
in PoA.

8) The  'gleam of something like triumph in Dumbledore's eyes' in GoF 
The Parting of the Ways may be associated with DD realising that LV  
has used Harry's blood as 'blood of the enemy...forcibly taken' when 
in fact LV had already shared Harry's blood in the past, but because 
of the memory modification, LV is ignorant of the shared blood 
history.

9) Would this amount of work by DD account for the 'missing 24 
hours' ?

I acknowledge other listees who have posted on similar topics. I 
joined after OoP so if any of this has been discussed in detail 
before please refer me to the relevant posts. I have numbered 
paragraphs in this long post for ease of replies. I hope this post 
makes sense because it is now 2am, by the time I've caught up with 
posts it's always late, and I do not want to post and repeat someone 
elses thoughts.

Phil (confusinglyso)






From dk59us at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 24 02:52:38 2004
From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 02:52:38 -0000
Subject: FILK:  Behind Red Eyes
In-Reply-To: <c3q0n3+rr66@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3qt5m+h5ru@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93790

And here's a link for a MIDI of the song: 
http://www.fortunecity.com/tinpan/lennon/351/blueeyes.mid

Feel free to sing along...just follow the bouncing ferret!

Eustace_Scrubb

Eustace_Scrubb wrote:
> Continuing to mine the collected works of Pete Townshend...
> 
> Behind Red Eyes (adapted from Behind Blue Eyes, off Who's Next)
> (Lament sung by Harry sometime late in OOTP)
> 
> I have seen what it's like
> To be the bad man
> To be the mad man
> Behind red eyes
> 
> I have sensed what it's like
> When he's angry
> at the failings
> of his dark allies
> 
> And my dreams
> They aren't as empty
> As I wish that they could be
> 
> I've spent hours, in a long hallway
> with a locked door
> beckoning me
> 
> No one knows what it's like
> To feel his feelings
> Like I do
> What must I do?
> 
> No one else knows his joy
> Or his anger
> Most of my schoolmates
> Don't think it's true.
> 
> But my dreams
> They aren't as empty
> As I wish that they could be
> 
> I've heard Rookwood telling secrets
> to further vengeance
> that's aimed at me.
> 
> When my scar hurts me, don't tell Sirius
> 'cause he might panic and lose his cool
> If I tell Ron or Hermione
> They may just shrug and I'll feel like a fool.
> 
> Sometimes I feel I'm possessed by evil
> I see the Headmaster as though I am a snake
> If our eyes meet, I feel I should strike him
> Though he's the last person that I should hate
> 
> I have seen what it's like
> To be the bad man
> To be the mad man
> Behind red eyes




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 24 03:11:50 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 03:11:50 -0000
Subject: Snape, trying very hard not to smile? Or is he just allergic to cats?
In-Reply-To: <c3pgkc+107on@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3qu9m+p71r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93791

potioncat wrote:
Having him [Snape] go to Filch rather than Poppy 
made his actions look more suspicious....but why did he do it?  
(I know which one I'd rather have tending a wound!) 
> > 
So, he must have been working on his own without DD's 
knowldege (a  lot like Harry, isn't he?) If he went to Poppy, DD 
would find out. (Does Snape really think he can keep this sort of 
thing from DD?)   But why then did he choose the teachers' 
lounge?  Wouldn't his own  office be a better place?<<
> 
Pippin responded:
> I think Snape has been working hand in glove with Dumbledore 
> all along--don't you think Dumbledore has ways of keeping tabs 
> on the staff room? Wonder whose portraits are in there?
> 
> In any case, Snape isn't trying to keep his wound a secret or he 
> would have chosen a more private place than the staff room, 
> which isn't even locked.  Either he has some reason for not 
> wishing to be examined by Pomfrey (she'd recognize a vampire, 
> wouldn't she?), or he wishes to make it appear that he has. 
> 
> Snape might have a grudge against Pomfrey going back to his 
> school days, since she helped Lupin maintain his disguise.
>

Carol:
Come on, Pippin! I thought you gracefully conceded defeat on the
vampire theory when the latest chat came out. (Besides, if there were
anything unusual about Snape's leg, Harry would have noticed it there
and in the Pensieve scene. :-) )

I agree that DD and Snape have been working hand in glove for as long
as Snape has been teaching there (with McGonagall as another key team
member). I also agree that the portraits are part of DD's spy network.
(Did the Fat Lady report Harry's conversation with Ron about
Umbridge's sadistic punishment? She should have!)

But I disagree about Snape's reasons for going to Filch rather than
Madam Pomfrey with his wound. It required less explaining, for one
thing. He might have wanted to keep his suspicions about Quirrell from
the other staff members rather than from DD, and he certainly didn't
want any students to know. Those who were petrified would be
oblivious, of course, but suppose someone showed up to receive the WW
equivalent of an aspirin or a band aid? Better to receive treatment
from Filch than risk being seen. (It didn't work of course. That
Potter is everywhere he shouldn't be!) Also, if Snape had a grudge
against Poppy or any other staff member (other than whoever is
teaching DADA), we'd surely have seen it by now.

Carol




From inky_quill at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 24 03:16:46 2004
From: inky_quill at hotmail.com (Julie)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 03:16:46 -0000
Subject: Dark Mark visibility & tattoos in general (was: Snape and the Order)
In-Reply-To: <c3ph23+sip8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3quiu+svvr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93792

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at m...> 
wrote:
> > Also, Black doesnt' seem to know about the DE's dark mark, which 
> makes me think it is usually invisible. 


That's what I thought also, Potioncat.  I was under the impression 
that the Dark Mark was dormant and therefore invisible (or at 
least very faded) from the time Lily/Harry blasted Voldemort out of 
his physical body in 1981 until Voldemort started seriously the 
process of returning to a body. 

So, doesn't this mean that unless you were an active Death Eater 
during Voldemort's first appearance(or intimately familiar with one's 
left forearm) or involved with detecting/prosecuting Death Eaters 
(aurors, certain ministry officials, Dumbledore) that you wouldn't 
ever have seen the mark? (Additionally, adult men in the WW seem to 
always dress in long sleeved shirts and jackets (or sweaters) when in 
public, rather than baring their arms in a t-shirt or short sleeved 
shirt.   Ponders the Wizard version of traffic road blocks, where the 
aurors pull likely suspects aside and make them roll up thier sleeves 
for an arm-alizer test)

US edition of Goblet of Fire
page 519: Karkaroff showed Snape his arm after potions class and 
said "It's never been this clear, never since--..." 
and
page 709 where Snape rolls his sleeve back and stuck his arm under 
Fudge's nose: "There. The Dark Mark.  It is not as clear as it was an 
hour ago, [about time of graveyard scene]when it burned black....this 
mark has been growing clearer all year..."

Fudge seems able to recognize Snape's tattoo (he recoils), and 
interestingly he 
doesn't react to Snape per say.  He doesn't say "Get away from me 
you Death Eater scum!" or "You idiot Albus, you gave a Death Eater a 
teaching position?!"  Fudge seems more upset about the timing of the 
revelation as another of Dumbledore's 'tricks'.  I suspect that its 
not a surprise to Fudge or the higher Ministry officials that Snape 
had been a Death Eater, since Dumbledore vouched for Snape in the 
trials. 

Incidently, many people (men and women) get tattoos now, but how 
common is/was it in Britian for men to be tattooed? I know both my 
Grandfather (WWII) and uncle (Vietnam) picked up lower arm tattoos 
while in the Navy, but that was the only reason you'd have one at 
least for my Grandfather.  Also, for a muggle born like Hermione, 
who might not been told about the placement and significance of the 
Dark Mark, would they confuse it at a glance with a "normal" or 
muggle-style tattoo?  Or is tattooing simply not "done" amongst 
respectible British men regardless of whether they are soldiers or 
not?  (I'm assuming that tattoos were considered a lower class or 
underworld element as they were in the US until the last twenty or so 
years)

Inky/Julie






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 24 02:43:04 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 02:43:04 -0000
Subject: Snape and the Order
In-Reply-To: <c3padg+c5be@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3qsjo+rm2s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93793

Inge wrote:
> Yesterday a friend and I got to talking about Snape and when he 
> actually joined the Order. Suddenly both of us had doubts about that. 
> Help anyone?
> Was Snape a member of the Order during the First War leading up to 
> Voldemorts downfall? 
> Or did every member of the Order at that time at least know about 
> Snape switching sides and acting as a spy for the Order?
> Or didn't Snape become a member till after Voldemorts disappearing?
> Im confused - and I don't want to be....
> 
> Inge

Carol:
I know that Potioncat has already partially answered your question, so
I'll try not to duplicate what she said.

Snape was definitely not a member of the original Order; he "rejoined
our side" as a spy for Dumbledore only, as far as I can tell--probably
as a test of his loyalty. It would probably have been dangerous to
everyone, including Snape himself, if he had been admitted to the
Order while James was still a member of it. James would never have
trusted him, and their enmity might well have destroyed the Order. So
I think that Snape was working in the utmost secrecy, with only DD
aware of what he was doing until he was hauled in front of Crouch as a
suspected DE and cleared by Dumbledore's testimony. That was the
point, I'm guessing, when DD decided to give Snape a teaching position
to keep him safe.

Unlike Potioncat, I think he became a teacher before Voldemort's fall
(around September 1 rather than November 1 or so). That's the only way
I can explain the DEs in Azkaban knowing about Pettigrew when Snape
apparently didn't. If he was at Hogwarts that Halloween night (and the
week or so before while the Secret Keeper arrangements were being
made), he wouldn't know that Peter, not Sirius, betrayed the Potters.
He'd be as much in the dark as Dumbledore apparently was.

The Order itself, AFAIK, was dormant, virtually nonexistent, between
Voldemort's fall and Pettigrew's escape at the end of PoA. During that
time, the DEs who escaped Azkaban knew that Snape was teaching at
Hogwarts, but they probably assumed that he had told the same lie they
did ("I was under the Imperious curse") to get out of going to prison.
As for the DEs in Azkaban, they clearly never mentioned Snape in
Sirius's hearing or he would have known that Snape had been a DE
(Potioncat has already given you the quote); it was only Pettigrew's 
blunder (and possibly Karkaroff's treachery) that they were concerned
about.

Although Snape has presumably been secretly aiding Dumbledore during
his entire fourteen-year stay at Hogwarts, preparing against LV's
eventual return, I think it was a private arrangement between
themselves for much of that time. Clearly Dumbledore relies on him and
trusts him in all five books, but it's only after Pettigrew's escape
in PoA that Snape (as well as McGonagall, Tonks, Kingsley Shacklefold,
and the Weasleys), becomes a first-time member of the Order,
supplementing its few surviving original members (Lupin, Sirius, Mad
Eye, Sturgis Podmore, et al.).

I hope I haven't mixed too much theory/speculation into this post. The
straight answer is, Snape was a spy for DD before Voldemort fell and
became a teacher either two months before or very shortly after the
events at Godric's Hollow, but he didn't become a member of the Order
until it was reconstituted after Pettigrew's escape. That much is
canon; the rest of this post is my opinion.

Carol 




From lhuntley at fandm.edu  Wed Mar 24 03:22:35 2004
From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 22:22:35 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ginny's animagus
In-Reply-To: <013d01c410e4$0a6fbf20$97e0f943@hppav>
Message-ID: <7EA08A30-7D42-11D8-94CF-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 93794

vmonte:
> I think Ginny Weasley is going to become an Animagus.
> Just a feeling.

Hrm . . . Ginny Weasley the Animagus.  Also, (as some have theorized) 
the Prefect and the Quidditch Captain.  Already she's a talented Seeker 
(but conveniently prefers the Chaser position), a prankster to rival 
the Twins, a smooth and accomplished liar, *and* a very "powerful" 
witch.

Is anyone else uncomfortable with all of this? *cough* Mary Sue. *cough*

Sue:
>   <<Has to be a cat.  She is affiliated with cats constantly in the
>   books.  She sits like a cat, hisses like a cat, curls up like a cat.
> The only thing we haven't heard is if she ever purrs.>>

You know, this ties into something I've never understood.  JKR *hates* 
cats.  Or, at least, she *says* she does.  For example, a Comic Relief 
chat in March 2001:

Q: What or who would you send into Room 101**?

A: Cats - I don't like them, and certain journalists.

However, throughout the books, cats are shown in a v. positive light -- 
sympathetic/good/etc. characters are or have cats all the time.  In 
general, JKR portrays cats as intelligent, sensitive to magic, and the 
natural companions of witches and wizards.  As you've pointed out, 
Ginny is often described in terms of her catlike qualities, and I'm 
fairly sure JKR likes her.  The only "bad cat" example I can think of 
is Mrs. Norris, actually.

Can anyone explain this?  If JKR dislikes cats as much as she dislikes 
journalist, how come they don't get the Rita Skeeter treatment?

Laura

** Room 101 is a 1984 reference of which I have only a v. vague 
understanding, having never read the book.  It is, I think, sort of 
like a boggart -- you go in and you see your greatest fear -- which was 
used by the government as a torture for prisoners.




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 24 03:49:13 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 03:49:13 -0000
Subject: Horse Feathers
In-Reply-To: <c3ptaq+cjuf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3r0fp+t6ua@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93795

vmonte wrote:
I've always had the feeling that Olivander was Flamel.
 
> JoAnna responded:
> 
> Doubtful. In SS/PS, Dumbledore tells Harry, "[Nicolas Flamel and 
> his wife, Perenelle] have enough Elixir stored to set their affairs 
> in order; then yes, they will die." (don't have my book available, 
> but it's in the last or second-to-last chapter).  I have the feeling 
> that Nicolas and Perenelle died shortly after the events of SS/PS, 
> after the stone was destroyed.  
> 
> Ollivander, however, is present for the Weighing of the Wands in 
> GoF. I sincerely doubt it took two-three years for Nicolas & 
> Perenelle Flamel to set their affairs in order, and if so I doubt 
> NicolasFlamel!Ollivander would continue working at his wand shop if 
> he had so much to do.

Carol:
I agree completely with Joanna. One more small point. Flamel's picture
is in the chocolate frog cards. If he's looked exactly like
Ollivander, Harry would have noticed it.

Carol, who wonders whether Ollivander could be related to Luna because
they have similar eyes




From inky_quill at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 24 03:56:49 2004
From: inky_quill at hotmail.com (Julie)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 03:56:49 -0000
Subject: Underage Magic during war & at the MoM
In-Reply-To: <c3qlo5+8mn9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3r0u1+rbq7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93796

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" 
<justcarol67 at y...> wrote:
> I'm still not convinced that the MoM knows *who* is performing the
> magic, but Arthur must have had some way of covering up his own 
spells for "sorting out" the problem--or possibly he informed the MoM 
that he'd be picking up Harry that day, so they knew that an adult 
wizard would be in the house and magic that day could be ignored.>>>

Yes, Carol, you're right about someone knowing at the MoM that Arthur 
Weasley would be at the Dursleys' that day.  He arranged to have the 
Dursley's electric fireplace connected temporarily to the Floo 
Network for the afternoon.  He had a "useful connections" who was 
willing to bend the rule against Muggle fireplaces being connected.
(Goblet of Fire, US ed. pages 44-45)  I suspect Arthur has more than 
one "useful connection" up his sleeve.

Regarding the use of underage or prohibited magic, I suspect its a 
combination of informants/complaintants and some other form of 
alert.   Am I remembering correctly?  Doesn't the ministry demand 
that all wizards and witches do magic with wands, and 
discourage/prohibit wandless magic?   I wonder if there could be 
built in monitoring spells on the wands themselves.  This would been 
overridden in a minor's wand, if the child was at a registered 
location such as the home or school.  Similarly perhaps there is 
something about the presence of non-magical muggles that the wand 
registers and which would trigger an alarm if the wand is used in 
thier vicinity?  No one seems to mind if wands are used around 
squibs, do they?

Inky/Julie




From erikal at magma.ca  Wed Mar 24 05:43:58 2004
From: erikal at magma.ca (Erika L.)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 23:43:58 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "A Little Romance"
Message-ID: <016701c41163$01707c00$1601bfce@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 93797

Robert Jones wrote:
>In her recent interview, JKR was asked >if Harry would fall for 
>another girl or would be too busy for >romance?  She answered 
>that "he'll be busy but what is life >without a little romance?"  But 
>I doubt romance will be a prominent part >of Book 6, and shippers who 
>analyze each syllable for clues are >going to disappointed.  JKR will 
>pay a lot more attention to the plot >about LV and make romance a 
>minor side issue at best.  These aren't >teenage romance novels, 
>afterall.  So there will be little >romance.

First of all, I'd like to say that I agree that romance will only play a minor role in book six. But here's the shocking part... I am a shipper and I will _not_ be disappointed by the relegation of romance to the level of sub-plot or sidenote.

I really believe it is unfair to imply that shippers are only looking for romance in the books. No, the books aren't teenage romance novels and I wouldn't be interested in reading them if they were; I think many other self-professed shippers would say the same. The fact that some people enjoy discussing, for example, the Vampire!Snape theory does not mean they want the books to turn into Anne Rice novels. Likewise, the fact that some people enjoy shipping and tend to "analyze each syllable for clues" does not mean they want the books transmuted into romance novels.

Joj wrote:

>The question is will it be a little side >plot, or will it play an important part >in the overall plot?  Will jealousies >and misunderstandings change things?  I >think there will be some sort of >triangle between the trio that will >impact the overall plot.

That's certainly possible. There are several scenarios that could play out which would lead to another temporary breakup of the trio as in books two and three. But it could also be that romance will be more important on the level of character development than plot development. After all, Harry's relationship with Cho in OoP didn't impact on the plot at all, but I think it was still an important element of the story. If nothing else, it showed in a very tangible way the impact Voldemort has already had in the short time since his return. Cho and Harry are both damaged by Cedric's death even though Cho, much like Cedric was, is only an innocent bystander in all this.

    So really I don't think whatever romance we see in future books has to take a central, or even plot-related, role to be interesting. As has been said, the novels are not romances. And I for one wouldn't have it any other way ;)

Best
Erika (Wolfraven)
For friendly shipping discussion join us at The Great Debate
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheGreatDebate

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From snapesmate at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 24 04:35:19 2004
From: snapesmate at hotmail.com (snapesmate)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 04:35:19 -0000
Subject: Harry bezoared
In-Reply-To: <c3qqh6+71ss@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3r367+kerh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93798

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "confusinglyso" 
<pjcousins at b...> wrote:
><snip The fact that DD sends Hagrid alone has been mentioned in 
> recent posts to indicate that DD's warning system must be very 
> sophisticated in that he must be aware that no DE's remain to 
> endanger solo Hagrid.
> Hagrid arrives at Godric's Hollow to find James and Lily Potter 
dead 
> and infant Harry alive. But,  Harry, as the only living being in 
the 
> house has been possessed by the 'spirit' of LV in an attempt to 
> survive the reflected AK curse that has disembodied LV. Whether 
> Hagrid is aware at this stage of Harry being Harry!Mort I, of 
course, 
> have no canon for support. Maybe Harry is yelling with pain in a 
> weird voice, we know possession is painful from OoP, MoM fight. LV 
> stays in Harry rather than cross to Hagrid because of prejudice 
> against giants or maybe Hagrid, as half giant, has extra protection 
> as witnessed (against spells) in OoP.
> 
> 3) Hagrid gets Harry to DD at Hogwarts and DD immediately knows 
that 
> Harry is Harry!Mort.
> What to do about it? Seal Harry!Mort in a large container, like 
> animagus bug Rita Skeeter, until death through suffocation? That's 
> despicable thought Daffy Duck - sorry DumbleDore. A sealed 
container 
> is the only way to prevent an escape by LV. DD realises that to 
save 
> Harry he must allow LV to escape, but he can allow the escape under 
> his terms.
> 
> 4) Leaving Harry!Mort in a secure spell bubble (as in OoP, MoM), DD 
> sends Hagrid to get an Eagle Owl and asks Snape to prepare a 
Draught 
> of Living Death and also a bezoar.
> An eagle owl, in GoF The Madness of Mr Crouch, is used by LV/PP to 
> tell Crouch!Moody that Crouch senior has escaped and is heading for 
> Hogwarts. DD has spies that seem pretty reliable at telling him 
where 
> LV is in the various books. I am sticking my neck out here, but my 
> guess here is that DD has the eagle owl prepared to be able to 
relay 
> messages or images back to DD from wherever LV and the owl are. 
Maybe 
> one of DD's office paintings of previous headmasters is duplicated 
> in  miniature and hidden (or tattooed) on the owl.
> 
> 5) DD returns alone to Harry!Mort with the Eagle Owl (now also a 
> spy), the Draught of Living Death, and the bezoar. DD first 
modifies 
> the memories of Harry and LV. Harry can now recall nothing after 
the 
> green flash, and LV is left thinking he could not touch Harry. DD 
> removes the spell bubble and feeds Harry the Draught of Living 
Death 
> while saying how sorry he is to have to kill one so young but it is 
> for the greater good of the WW. As the poison takes effect, LV 
leaves 
> Harry's body, takes possession of the eagle owl, and escapes. DD 
then 
> administers the antidote, the bezoar, and Harry is once again just 
> Harry, except for some odd memory of the name Tom Riddle, 
> parceltongue, and maybe some other talents yet to be revealed.
> 
> 6) The eagle owl is a good choice by DD as it will be unlikely to 
be 
> attacked by another creature and so should provide a good solution 
to 
> LV and yet last as DD's spy. Is this part of the answer to 
> Dumbledore's seeming omniscience?
> 
> 7) Hagrid being involved in these events, I believe is the source 
of 
> the news that LV has vanished, he did tell McGonagall early enough 
> for her to be on Privet Drive before Vernon left for work, and he 
> cannot keep a secret. I also wonder if Hagrid recovered LV's wand, 
> maybe Peter Pettigrew got it back when he was hiding in Hagrid's 
hut 
> in PoA.
> 
> 8) The  'gleam of something like triumph in Dumbledore's eyes' in 
GoF 
> The Parting of the Ways may be associated with DD realising that 
LV  
> has used Harry's blood as 'blood of the enemy...forcibly taken' 
when 
> in fact LV had already shared Harry's blood in the past, but 
because 
> of the memory modification, LV is ignorant of the shared blood 
> history.
> 
> 9) Would this amount of work by DD account for the 'missing 24 
> hours' ?
> 
> I acknowledge other listees who have posted on similar topics. I 
> joined after OoP so if any of this has been discussed in detail 
> before please refer me to the relevant posts. I have numbered 
> paragraphs in this long post for ease of replies. I hope this post 
> makes sense because it is now 2am, by the time I've caught up with 
> posts it's always late, and I do not want to post and repeat 
someone 
> elses thoughts.
> 
> Phil (confusinglyso)

An interesting hypothesis.  I have often wondered just how "word got 
out" as well and this would explain it.  The only problem I have with 
the Godric's Hollow event is, although we do not really get any 
insight from the book, in the film9PS/SS), there was someone standing 
just behind Voldemort as he curses Lily.  I know usually the scripts 
are not considered canon, however, JKR did have a say-so in the 
filming of this scene and I do not believe there is anything in the 
scene that would not support canon.  I think the scene, as it appears 
in PS/SS movie does provide clue.  I just wish I could figure them 
out.  Voldemort is shown approaching the house alone, but then when 
in the room with Lily, as he is cursing her, there is someone 
standing just behind his right shoulder.  Then I think of Lupin's 
remark in PoA.  He said "you heard James?" (paraphrasing) to Harry 
during the patronus lesson.  Why?  He didn't question Harry's hearing 
Lily's scream.  Does he know something about James yet to be told?

Lynnette, who thinks Snape IS a good guy, even if he is NOT a nice
guy!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterverseofadults




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 24 04:44:23 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 04:44:23 -0000
Subject: Dark Mark visibility & tattoos in general (was: Snape and the Order)
In-Reply-To: <c3quiu+svvr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3r3n7+snu5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93799

Inky/Julie wrote:

Fudge seems able to recognize Snape's tattoo (he recoils), and 
> interestingly he 
> doesn't react to Snape per say.  He doesn't say "Get away from me 
> you Death Eater scum!" or "You idiot Albus, you gave a Death Eater a 
> teaching position?!"  Fudge seems more upset about the timing of the 
> revelation as another of Dumbledore's 'tricks'.  I suspect that its 
> not a surprise to Fudge or the higher Ministry officials that Snape 
> had been a Death Eater, since Dumbledore vouched for Snape in the 
> trials. 

Carol:
I'm not sure how to interpret Fudge's reaction. I always interpreted
Snape's revelation of the Dark Mark as an act of great courage,
assuming that Fudge didn't know about it until that point, but it
might have been simple frustation with Fudge's obstinacy and idiocy.
At any rate, Fudge is clearly rejecting evidence placed right under
his nose--rather like Vernon dursley denying that magic exists. 

But the point I really wanted to make is a minor clarification. the
Dark Mark is not a tattoo, a Muggle "art form" created with ink and
needles. I'm almost certain that he says somewhere, probably in GoF,
that it was *burned* onto his arm, presumably through some sort of
spell (maybe even Morsmordre, which Barty Jr. uses to send the Dark
mark into the sky at the Quidditch World Cup).

My impression has always been that the existence of the Dark Mark to
identify Death Eaters was not widely known, or it would have been much
easier to prove or disprove their guilt. It's possible, as you
suggest, that it faded completely away during the Vapormort! years,
but wouldn't that have indicated to the DEs that Voldemort was
actually dead and their service to him was ended? I think that at
least a trace of it must have remained.

Also one of the purposes was to enable DEs who didn't know each other
to recognize each other. (Imagine identifying yourself by rolling up
your sleeve only to discover that the other person was really an
auror!) I think it was a secret mark known only to the DEs themselves
and probably Dumbledore (and Barty Sr., who would have seen the mark
on his son's arm when he took the dying boy home in place of his dying
wife--such a stupid thing to do!)

Not sure where I'm going with this post. I guess I just want to know
what others think about the Dark Mark and to point out that it wasn't
a tattoo but a burned-on, magical calling card that, if touched by LV,
burned not only the arm of the touched DE but all of the others as
well, reminding them that worse was to come if they disobeyed the
summons. 

Carol, who thinks we'll hear more about the coward Karkaroff in Book 6




From inky_quill at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 24 04:46:03 2004
From: inky_quill at hotmail.com (Julie)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 04:46:03 -0000
Subject: Snape & Filch (was: Snape, trying ...not to smile? )
In-Reply-To: <c3qu9m+p71r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3r3qb+kbsp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93800

> potioncat wrote: [snipped]
> Having him [Snape] go to Filch rather than Poppy 
> made his actions look more suspicious....but why did he do it?  

> Pippin responded: [snipped] ...Snape isn't trying to keep his wound 
a secret [snip] he has some reason for not 
> > wishing to be examined by Pomfrey (she'd recognize a vampire, 
> > wouldn't she?), or he wishes to make it appear that he has. 

> Carol: [snipped]...I also agree that the portraits are part of DD's 
spy network. [snip] But I disagree about Snape's reasons for going to 
Filch rather than Madam Pomfrey with his wound. It required less 
explaining, for one thing. He might have wanted to keep his 
suspicions about Quirrell from  the other staff members rather than 
from DD, and he certainly didn't want any students to know....
Better to receive treatment from Filch than risk being seen.

(me) Snape hasn't just been bitten when Harry sees the wound.  I 
think Snape let Filch assist him with the bandages 
because Madame Pomfrey wasn't supposed to know about Fluffy.  Filch, 
as the caretaker who presumably has the run of the castle, was 
probably allowed to know -- at least that a large dangerous 
animal was guarding "the third floor corridor on the right hand 
side."  Could you imagine the consequences of Mrs. Norris wandering 
down the corridor?  

Also, besides Poppy being excluded from the secret, perhaps an visit 
to the infirmery is magically logged on some report?  Very bad for 
keeping secrets, much less any encounters with inquisitive students.

Harry assumes that Snape was bitten "at Halloween" but the book 
merely says that they "entered November" before Snape 
confiscated "Quiddith Through the Ages" on a friday afternoon before 
Harry's first Quidditch game (which is the next day, Saturday).  Its 
difficult to figure out how many days passed between Quirrel's 
Halloween Troll distraction and Harry's discovery of Snape's shredded 
leg.  But the narrative does seem to mention some passage of time so 
it seems that Snape might have taken a couple of days to decide he'd 
better check that the safeguards around the stone were still in place.
Harry only notices him limping that afternoon, so he wasn't just 
bitten when Harry sees him with Filch.

I theorize that a Friday evening before the first big quidditch match 
was probably a pretty quiet time for using the staff room, perhaps 
Snape had helped himself to some more bandages quietly and then run 
into Filch near the staff room and decided to enlist his help. Snape 
seems comfortable discussing Fluffy with Filch, "How are you supposed 
to keep your eyes on all three heads at once?"  sounds like a 
complaint you'd make to someone who's also dealt with Fluffy and 
understands the problem.

Inky/Julie






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 24 05:10:14 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 05:10:14 -0000
Subject: "You heard James?" (Was: Harry bezoared)
In-Reply-To: <c3r367+kerh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3r57m+qj98@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93801

Lynette:
<huge snips>
Then I think of Lupin's remark in PoA. He said "you heard James?"
(paraphrasing) to Harry during the patronus lesson.  Why?  He didn't
question Harry's hearing Lily's scream. Does he know something about
James yet to be told?


Carol:
I think this remark is one of our first clues that Lupin was a good
friend of James's, a fact he's been concealing from Harry and now has
to partially admit. It's a first step toward the revelation that he's
one of the makers of the Marauder's Map and a one-time friend of the
supposed murderer Sirius Black as well, not to mention his own status
as werewolf and his role in the other three friends becoming illegal
animagi. (Snape calling him into his office to ask about the supposed
dark magic in the piece of parchment is, IIRC, the next hint.)

As for why Lupin doesn't react the same way to hearing about Lily's
screams as to hearing about James's voice, he's seen Harry faint and
has known he heard Lily screaming from almost the first time Harry
encounters a Dementor, so knowing that he heard her words isn't that
much of a shock to Lupin. Also he was closer, much closer, to James
than to Lily for seven years of his life. So he forgets for a moment
just how much he's hiding from Harry and the words "You heard James?"
just slip out. That slip, IMO, makes the eventual revelation of all
his other secrets inevitable.

Carol




From falkelihu at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 24 05:38:24 2004
From: falkelihu at yahoo.com (Elihu Falk)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 21:38:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Which Devision do dementors belong to?(was:Re: Just a question....)
In-Reply-To: <c3o512+tk8a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040324053824.67751.qmail@web61106.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93802



Lara wrote:
<Big snip> The Demenotrs on the other hand are a seperate creature, like dogs and cats only much more dangerous and scary, and you know, magical. We do not know whether they are dead or alive or the non-dead, but all evidence points to them being part of the beast division at the MoM (and not the spirit one).

Elihu's answer:

Why not beings? They are taking sides in the Voldemot War, they were given permission to kiss Sirius if they ever found him... This sounds more like beings than beasts. And as Lara pointed out, they aren't mentioned in Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them.



Elihu
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From inky_quill at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 24 05:42:22 2004
From: inky_quill at hotmail.com (Julie)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 05:42:22 -0000
Subject: Dark Mark visibility & tattoos in general (was: Snape and the Order)
In-Reply-To: <c3r3n7+snu5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3r73u+c487@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93803

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" 
<justcarol67 at y...> wrote: [snip]  a minor clarification. the
> Dark Mark is not a tattoo, a Muggle "art form" created with ink and
> needles. I'm almost certain that he says somewhere, probably in GoF,
> that it was *burned* onto his arm, presumably through some sort of
> spell 

Inky (me)
(Sigh) I am so silly.  Yes. you're right Carol, the Dark Mark is a 
spell brand not actually a tattoo.  I knew that, I really did.  I 
guess I'm using the word "tattoo" as the closest "mark" that western 
humans use to mark their skin with (and that sentance isn't really 
well worded either, but I hope you get the general gist of thought).

<<Carol wrote: It's possible, as you  suggest, that it faded 
completely away during the Vapormort! years, but wouldn't that have 
indicated to the DEs that Voldemort was actually dead and their 
service to him was ended? I think that at least a trace of it must 
have remained.

(Me again) Actually its not my suggestion that the mark was less 
visible but what both Karkaroff and Snape said. I don't know if its 
just faded or invisible. Both men indicate that the appearance of the 
Mark has become more noticable.  And on 709/710 Snape tells Fudge 
that the Mark's appearance changes.  "It is not as clear as it was an 
hour ... ago... but you can still see it."  So when Voldemort is 
actively signalling his followers, it burns black (gah! Burns black, 
why, oh why, did I call it a tattoo?)

I agree totally "one of the purposes was to enable DEs who didn't 
know each other to recognize each other" as you said, although I tend 
to think that its not just a matter of rolling up sleeves, but more 
of a magic signature to the brand. I think that the dormancy of the 
Mark was a further factor in the DE's ability to lie low after 
Voldemort vaporized (snicker, love your 'vapormort'!)  

<<Carol wrote: ....but wouldn't that have 
indicated to the DEs that Voldemort was actually dead and their 
service to him was ended? I think that at least a trace of it must 
have remained.

(me) Since he's not around to summon the Death Eaters thorough the 
Mark, the less fanatical (or lazy if you will) Death Eaters could 
justify not looking for Voldemort and trouble, and probably did 
think --like the rest of the wizarding world-- that Harry Potter had 
killed Voldemort.  Otherwise why hide Harry from the wizarding 
world?  The master might be gone, but there are still followers who 
continue his policies and enact a little revenge.  

I've seen this question skirted around in the few months that I'll 
been a member of the group.  People have talked about how many DEs, 
about who was and wasn't at the graveyard, etc.  But I haven't seen 
much on the DEs as an organization without Voldemort. 

Voldemort is an evil villan but he's not the cause of the DE's 
existance.  He's only a charasmatic leader who organized them.  They 
all share a belief system about wizardly superiority and purity of 
bloodline.  These beliefs didn't vanish with Voldemort.  So what are 
they doing in the 13 or so years Voldemort is incomunicado and not 
giving orders.  Quirrel (accidently) and later Wormtail find him 
abroad.  V. doesn't find them.   

Wizards at large believe he's dead.  And I think that includes most 
of the Death Eaters too.  Voldemort himself scolds his followers 
during the Graveyard rebirth for abandoning him and not seeking him 
out (we know he was holed up part of the time in Albania, but 
obviously he wasn't able to communicate and summon the DEs to him). 
The summons to the Graveyard must have been a real shocker, for 13 
years or so Lucius Malfoy and who ever else makes up the upper 
echelon of the DEs have had the organization to themselves.  Now they 
are demoted to followers again.

Hum.  Now that I think of it I'm less convinced that that DArk Mark 
serves as a visual recognition device (besides its primary function 
as V.'s tool to summon/contact his followers).  Voldemort seems to 
be the only one who can activate it--hence the 'fading' both 
Karkaroff and Snape refer to.  I can see it burning darkly
during a Death Eater function or raid, when Voldemort activates it so 
that the 'team' knows each is supposed to be there (no aurors in 
disguise).  I think there must be more than just a visual quality to 
it, perhaps a non-visible magical resonance or some such 
that all who bear it can pick up on.  Still mulling this over.

I agree, it was a courageous **and** a frustrated move on Snape's 
part to shove the Mark under the nose of an angry and in-denial 
Fudge.  But I assume that Snape can only tolerate so much stupid self 
delusion about a life threatening danger as Voldemort.  And the 
dialog notes Snape as speaking 'harshly' to the minister.  Much more 
comfortable and safe to keep the mark hidden, and coast along under 
Fudge's self-delusion that its all over, than to remind him by 
showing off Voldemort's name tag.  

Inky/Julie
who is so thrilled that Carol took the time and commented on her 
ramblings.  




From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Wed Mar 24 05:43:14 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 05:43:14 -0000
Subject: Snape, trying very hard not to smile? Or is he just allergic to cats?
In-Reply-To: <c3pki1+o190@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3r75i+425o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93804

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at m...> 
wrote:
>  
> > Eloise:
> > Eloise:
> xsnip
> > 
> > I think he's amused because Harry *is* in the wrong place at the 
> wrong time and he hopes to take advantage of it. Perhaps he's also 
> amused because he's standing in Lockhart's office with portraits 
> wearing curlers dodging out of sight. He can witness Lockhart 
making 
> a prat of himself and exploit the situation  to his own advantage 
> against Harry. Or so he hopes. 
> > 
> > The smile he is trying to suppress develops, once he starts to 
> speak, into a 
> > sneer:
> > 
> > >>"Potter and his friends may have simply been in the wrong place 
> at the
> > wrong time," he said, a slight sneer curling his mouth as though 
he
> > doubted it.<<
> > 
> > and from there into a full blown smile as he finally catches 
Harry 
> et al out:
> > 
> > >>"Without any supper?" said Snape, a triumphant smile flickering 
> across
> > his gaunt face. "I didn't think ghosts provided food fit for 
living 
> people
> > at their parties."
> > 
> > "We weren't hungry," said Ron loudly as his stomach gave a huge
> > rumble.
> > 
> > Snape's nasty smile widened.
> > 
> > "I suggest, Headmaster, that Potter is not being entirely 
> truthful," he
> > said. "It might be a good idea if he were deprived of certain 
> privileges
> > until he is ready to tell us the whole story. I personally feel 
he 
> should
> > be taken off the Gryffindor Quidditch team until he is ready to be
> > honest." <<
> > 
> > The smile disappears as soon as Dumbledore refuses to blame Harry 
> and Snape 
> > and Filch are once more united:
> > 
> > >>Snape looked furious. So did Filch.<<
> 
> 
> Potioncat:  I think you may  have hit on it, the smile isn't about 
> the cat.  It's hard to understand how he can be amused though, 
given 
> how serious the Chamber of Secrets is.  
> 
> I've wondered if he didn't use some form of legilimency and was 
> letting DD know that he saw deception in Potter's mind.  I think he 
> added the quidditch restriction because Snape will use any means to 
> win quidditch. He may have been angry at DD's apparant dismissal of 
> the dishonesty issue rather than the quidditch restriction.
> > 
> snipping Sue and Eloise comments
>  
> > Sue: 
> > >Snape is quite flattered at the young Malfoy's suggestion that 
he 
> become headmaster after DD's  departure.  He certainly didn't 
protest 
> the idea or defend DD.
>  
> > Eloise:
> > Could the smirk be because this was confirmation that he had 
Lucius 
> Malfoy exactly where he wanted him (is *Lucius* actually the lap 
> dog?) If he wants to  maintain his reputation amongst the Voldemort 
> supporters, then it's to his advantage to play the card that Draco 
> put into his hand.
> 
> Potioncat:
> I didn't see that Snape was flattered, I thought he was well aware 
> that Draco was playing up to him.  He did support DD by saying he 
> wouldn't be gone long. But he did it in a way that as Eloise said, 
> played the hand.
> > 
> 
> Eloise (I think): 
> > I don't think it's to do with fear that Mme Pomprey will report 
> what's he's 
> > up to. Mme Pomfrey isn't one of Dumbledore's inner circle. At the 
> end of GoF, 
> > although she hears the same revelations as Fudge (including that 
> Snape was a 
> > DE), Dumbledore is very careful to make sure that she is well out 
> of earshot 
> > before allowing Sirius to regain his human form. I doubt very 
much 
> that she knew 
> > about the Philosopher's Stone. I doubt that any did, other than 
> those who were 
> > directly involved in its protection. Filch was part of the 
> protection in that 
> > he had a role in guarding the corridor. Why tell anyone else?
> 
> Potioncat:  I think you've gotten this too!  The students weren't 
> supposed to know and perhaps many of the staff didn't either.  So 
it 
> made sense to use someone other than Poppy.  And it certainly made 
> for a large red herring! 
> 
> Eliose: 
> > As for why he chose the staff room? Good question. I did wonder 
if 
> it were  all JKR's fault. imperio'ing him to do it there so that it 
> was easier for Harry 
> snip
> 
> Potioncat who just couldn't snip the part about JKR imperio'ing the 
> characters.

Sorry list elves, I tried to snip but this one was hard (big whine):

Sue responds, book in hand, and adjusting herself on the Snapey fence 
upon which she sits:

Here's what I think.  I don't think Snape really cares about getting 
Harry into trouble (really...he has bigger fish to fry). But I do 
think he has a feeling *why* Harry wound up in that corridor and it 
doesn't have anything to do with opening the Chamber.  Many people 
have suggested (Sorry, I don't have the post #'s, I'm just not up to 
that much research.) that Snape used the Dueling Club to "out" Harry 
as a Parselmouth.  If this is indeed the case, and I think it is, his 
smile would be because he just had a very profound "Aha!" 
moment. "Aha!  Potter *is* a Parselmouth and he heard the Basilisk!"  
And BTW, one little look in the eye and Snape would have had his 
confirmation that this was the case.

Before you sputter again ;)...DD knows what is in the Chamber.  He 
was there before, he knew Hagrid didn't open the Chamber and it 
doesn't take a genius (okay, maybe Hermione is a genius, but so is 
DD) to figure it out.  Especially after living through seeing TM 
become Voldie.  He certainly wasn't keeping his talent for conversing 
with snakes a secret later in his life.  Everyone knows and one or 
little two and two deductions along with what happened 50 years ago, 
a little chat with a certain teenaged ghost in the girls' bathroom 
and voila! Mystery solved.

I realize I just contradicted my first post, but all of your comments 
caused me to go back and rethink.  As far as the masked DE's you'll 
have a hard time convincing me Snape wasn't there.  I don't think 
playing with his old friends is below him and it would not surprise 
*me* to find out Snape is holding the leash on Malfoy and not the 
other way around.  It is MVHO that Snape is directly in contact with 
Voldemort.  That is what makes him so valuable to the Order.

I'm going to throw one more thing in because no one responded before:

In OotP, what was happening in the room with Rockwood moments before 
Harry went to sleep and melded with Voldemort?  What was happening 
just moments after?  Was the reason Snape was so upset about that 
because he almost saw something that would have created some real 
problems? Perhaps Snape was in that room too? If this is the case 
what would the problems be and for whom?  Snape lovers?  Snape 
doubters?

Sue





From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Wed Mar 24 06:05:16 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 06:05:16 -0000
Subject: Snape, trying very hard not to smile? Or is he just allergic to cats?
In-Reply-To: <c3qg34+ikeo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3r8es+g5n4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93805

Snip of Carol's post:
> I really, really hope Snape wasn't part of that Muggle-baiting
> incident. I think he knows how it feels to be upside down with your
> underwear on display and wouldn't want to put anyone else in that
> position (literally or figuratively). Like DD, he doesn't seem to 
have
> been present at the QWC, but there's no canon to indicate that he 
was
> absent, either.
> 
> Suggested cure for getting "Tiptoe through the Tulips" out of your
> head--watch the teaser trailer for PoA. You'll be humming "Something
> Wicked This Way Comes"!
> 
> Carol, with apologies to the List Elves for straying onto the movies
> for a moment

Thanks for the response Carol!  I already wrote more about the 
Basilisk/Chamber post so I won't say anymore here.  I would agree 
with you that Snape would find their predicament way too reminiscent 
of his own experiences.  If he was at the QWC, however, he could have 
been spending a little too much time with the Fire Whiskey and his DE 
friends and joined in the crowd when they went on their exploits out 
of a twisted sense of loyalty to them.  

"Something Wicked This Way Comes" carries a similar penalty...I was 
stuck on that one last week! :)

Sue




From greatelderone at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 24 06:20:28 2004
From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 06:20:28 -0000
Subject: Horse Feathers
In-Reply-To: <c3p59v+p98b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3r9bc+p4n1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93806

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
> 
> The idea that 'the wand chooses the wizard' is true only to a 
certain
> extent. It would be more accurate to say that 'a wand from a 
selection
> made by Ollivander chooses the wizard'. Harry did not  have a free 
run
> of the stockroom, free to choose as whim, instinct or intuition 
took him.

And how long would it have taken him? 

> Think stage magicians - "pick a card, any card and I'll tell you 
what 
> you've got." 
> 
> Why  would Ollie think that the counterpart wand to the one that 
killed
> his parents and scarred him be just the wand for Harry? 

Because he was running out of wands. Remember. Testing out each wand 
probably narrowed down the category for him until he decided to give 
the phoenix wand a try. 

> The more likely
> thought would be that it would be animical towards Harry, or that 
Harry
> would recoil from it. Sort of magical antigen-antibody reaction. 

That makes no sense. The wand isn't inherently evil only its user. 
Harry would recoil from Voldemort or something touched by him not the 
wand unless it's being touched by him. 

> Unless
> DD decided that Harry eeded all the protection he could  get and a
> conflicting wand might come in very handy some day.

How would dumbledore even know that the wand would choose Harry. 
If it's so easy as you say why doesn't he just create more phoenix 
wands and start handling them out as weapons or tools of protection 
to people chosen by it? The fact that the wands are rare and yet 
Fawkes's feather are not implies that very few are chosen for the 
honor. 




From lmthib at earthlink.net  Tue Mar 23 19:50:52 2004
From: lmthib at earthlink.net (Lynette)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 14:50:52 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
Subject: Underage Magic during war & at the MoM
Message-ID: <24040945.1080071453726.JavaMail.root@huey.psp.pas.earthlink.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 93807

Eloise:
>I'd never thought about that before, about the *Dudley* being the Muggle 
>concerned. Surely the MoM must realise that the families of Muggle born wizards 
>know that they are wizards? Can they really expect the Dursleys to keep such 
>knowledge secret from Dudley?  

>Accusing Harry of the offence of using magic in front of this particular 
>Muggle in the first place is surely related to Fudge and Umbridge's unwillingness
>to hear evidence in his defence: they are simply using the law to try to 
>achieve their own ends. 

They could have been concerned that other Muggles saw it, since it was such a big magic - it would be hard to explain as weather ballons.  But I agree that they were twisting the law to get Harry.

>Who also wonders why there was no immediate consequence to the Ton Tongue 
>Toffee incident, which *was* a piece of underage magic performed on a Muggle in 
>a house which seems closely monitored. 


The magic was already done in the Barrows when the toffee was made, not eaten.  The only magic in this was when Arthur repaired the tongue.  He is a full wizard, so no problem.  Except with Ms. Weasley when the twins got home.



Best wishes,

Lynette
Landover, MD
Zone 7





From Ladycat16 at aol.com  Wed Mar 24 00:59:18 2004
From: Ladycat16 at aol.com (Ladycat16 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 19:59:18 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Peter the Hufflepuff manque (was: Wormtail's Debt? )
Message-ID: <1f0.1c296d8a.2d923766@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93808

Kneasy:
> 
> > Go? further - suppose it has tried the same ploy before - with
> > the Marauders. James (Gryffindor), Sirius (Slytherin), Remus
> > (Ravenclaw), Peter (Hufflepuff).


I am just quickly posting on this. If its already been said I am sorry. I am 
on a forum, and it the forum the people posted that JKR, recently anwsered a 
question during an interview. The Marauders (James, Sirius, Remus, and Peter) 
were all in the same house Gryffindor. So they each can't represent a house 
even though in my heart I would want them to just for unity of the school thing.  


Tiffany


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





From laura_clapham2002 at yahoo.com.au  Wed Mar 24 02:40:46 2004
From: laura_clapham2002 at yahoo.com.au (laura_clapham2002)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 02:40:46 -0000
Subject: sirius as animagus - why didn't the deatheaters know pre OOP?
Message-ID: <c3qsfe+n486@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93809

During my umpteenth rereading of OOP, the following struck me...

In Voldy War 1 we know that Wormtail was passing information to Voldy 
for a year before his fall.  Yet it is implied in OOP that the death 
eaters did not know this until after Voldy's resurrection - ie Lucius 
Malfoy recognising Sirius at Platform 9 3/4 in OOP.  Why wouldn't 
they have known this before (and therefore made it known during 
POA)?  Wouldn't Peter have been passing this kind of info about the 
members of the Order? IF not why not?  What does this say about Peter?
Or on the other hand, what does it say about the death eaters 
capacity to be efficient, if Voldy does not pass on this kind of 
information?

princess laura





From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 24 07:46:52 2004
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 07:46:52 -0000
Subject: sirius as animagus - why didn't the deatheaters know pre OOP?
In-Reply-To: <c3qsfe+n486@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3redc+33rb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93810

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "laura_clapham2002"
<laura_clapham2002 at y...> wrote:
> During my umpteenth rereading of OOP, the following struck me...
> 
> In Voldy War 1 we know that Wormtail was passing information to Voldy 
> for a year before his fall. ...edited..  Wouldn't Peter have been 
> passing this kind of info about the members of the Order? IF not why 
> not?  What does this say about Peter? ...edited...
> 
> princess laura

bboy_mn:

A good spy NEVER tells ALL, because once you pass on everything you
know, you have essentially out lived your usefullness. A good spy is
like a good actor, you always leave them wanting more. Of course,
that's just a thought.


bboy_mn





From carolynwhite2 at aol.com  Wed Mar 24 08:44:41 2004
From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 08:44:41 -0000
Subject: Snape, trying very hard not to smile? Or is he just allergic to cats?
In-Reply-To: <c3pgkc+107on@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3rhpp+10da3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93811

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> 
wrote:
  Either he has some reason for not 
> wishing to be examined by Pomfrey (she'd recognize a vampire, 
> wouldn't she?), or he wishes to make it appear that he has. 
> 
> Snape might have a grudge against Pomfrey going back to his 
> school days, since she helped Lupin maintain his disguise.
> 
> Pippin

Carolyn:
Maybe its a boy thing - he'd rather it was grubby old Filch helping 
with his bandages than have some woman examining his wounds. A nurse 
friend of mine told me that that's still a very common attitude, even 
today. It seems to me very much in character for Snape.




From gbannister10 at aol.com  Wed Mar 24 09:01:41 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 09:01:41 -0000
Subject: Horse Feathers
In-Reply-To: <c3r0fp+t6ua@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3ripl+pipl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93812

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" 
<justcarol67 at y...> wrote:

> Carol:
> I agree completely with Joanna. One more small point. Flamel's 
picture
> is in the chocolate frog cards. If he's looked exactly like
> Ollivander, Harry would have noticed it.

Geoff:
I would suggest that Nicholas Flamel has /not/ been on a Frog card:

When Ron and Harry first meet on the Hogwarts Express, Harry asks Ron 
what the cards are and Ron, in his reply, says:

" ? Chocolate Frogs have cards inside them, you know, to collect 
Famous Witches and Wizards. I've got about five hundred but I haven't 
got Agrippa or Ptolemy."

(PS "The Journey from Platform Nine and Three-Quarters" p. 77 UK 
edition)

Ron obviously has a pretty fair knowledge of these cards. But:

"'Oh, we're not working,' Harry told him (Hagrid) brightly. `Ever 
since you mentioned Nicholas Flamel we've been trying to find out who 
he is.'
`You what?' Hagrid looked shocked. `Listen here ? I've told yeh ? 
drop it

'



.`We just want to know who Nicholas Flamel is, that's all,' said 
Hermione.
`Unless you'd like to tell us and save us the trouble?' Harry 
added,'

.. I know I've read his name somewhere.'
'I'm sayin' nothin'' said Hagrid flatly.
`Just have to find out for ourselves, then' said Ron

."

(PS "The Mirror of Erised" p.145 UK edition)

So, Ron doesn't know. 

But then Harry, having forgotten where he had seen the name before, 
gives a Frog to Neville and Neville gives Harry the card:

"`As Neville walked away Harry looked at the Famous Wizard card.
`Dumbledore again,' he said. `He was the first one I ever ? `
He gasped. He stared at the back of the card. Then he looked up at 
Ron and Hermione.
`I've found him!' he whispered. `I've found Flamel! I told you I'd 
read the name somewhere before. I read it on the train coming here ? 
listen to this: "Professor Dumbledore is particularly famous for his 
defeat of the dark wizard Grindelwald in 1945, for the discovery of 
the twelve uses of dragon's blood /and his work on alchemy with his 
partner Nicholas Flamel/"!'"

(PS "Nicholas Flamel" p.160 UK edition)

Another point. I looked up Flamel on the web and it is suggested that 
he was born in 1330. If so, then extrapolating forward with the entry 
in the "enormous old book" would give us 1996. (1330 + 665 +1). But 
since the action is taking place in 1992, there is a slight 
discrepancy.

Even so, it lends credence to the idea that the library books are 
self-updating (or that JKR found a different date).




From eloiseherisson at aol.com  Wed Mar 24 09:36:13 2004
From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 04:36:13 EST
Subject: Snape, trying very hard not to smile? Or is he just allergic to cats?
Message-ID: <fb.52946932.2d92b08d@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93813

Sue responds, book in hand, and adjusting herself on the Snapey fence upon 
which she sits:
 
> Here's what I think.  I don't think Snape really cares about getting 
> Harry into trouble (really...he has bigger fish to fry). 

Eloise:
Oh, yes. *Much* bigger. But I still think he *really* cares about getting 
Harry into trouble. It's one of his little weaknesses.  ;-) I've gone on enough 
about this in the past, but I truly think Snape has *big* psychological 
problems where Harry is concerned. He's jealous of him, he has a ridiculous juvenile 
rivalry going on with him inside his own greasy head and although I also think 
he sometimes displays caring, paternal behaviour towards him, he still can't 
stand him and can't help trying to get his own back.


Sue:
>But I do 
> think he has a feeling *why* Harry wound up in that corridor and it 
> doesn't have anything to do with opening the Chamber.  Many people 
> have suggested (Sorry, I don't have the post #'s, I'm just not up to 
> that much research.) that Snape used the Dueling Club to "out" Harry 
> as a Parselmouth.  If this is indeed the case, and I think it is, his 
> smile would be because he just had a very profound "Aha!" 
> moment. "Aha!  Potter *is* a Parselmouth and he heard the Basilisk!"  

Eloise:
This could certainly work. But I *do* have a problem with the idea that Snape 
knows about the Basilisk. I rather think the plot of the books presupposes 
that no-one knows it's a Basilisk at this stage. Except for conspiracy 
theorists, of course, but I'm not one of those.

Sue:
> And BTW, one little look in the eye and Snape would have had his 
> confirmation that this was the case.

Eloise:
Perhaps. But Snape tells us that Legilimency isn't mind reading. It would 
have confirmed exactly what he said, though, that Harry wasn't being entirely 
truthful.

Sue:
> Before you sputter again ;)

I'll try and control myself. ;-)

...DD knows what is in the Chamber.  He 
> was there before, he knew Hagrid didn't open the Chamber and it 
> doesn't take a genius (okay, maybe Hermione is a genius, but so is 
> DD) to figure it out.  Especially after living through seeing TM 
> become Voldie.  He certainly wasn't keeping his talent for conversing 
> with snakes a secret later in his life.  Everyone knows and one or 
> little two and two deductions along with what happened 50 years ago, 
> a little chat with a certain teenaged ghost in the girls' bathroom 
> and voila! Mystery solved.


Eloise:
Yeess.....
This *is* puzzling. Why the heck didn't Dumbledore do something about it if 
he had all the clues there? He knew Tom Riddle  opened the Chamber the first 
time. The students attacked the first time were also presumably petrified (how 
else were they injured?) He knew where Myrtle died and that he could interview 
her. He *should* know. He also knows that Harry is hiding information from 
him, or possibly more than that. He may actually know the nature of what Harry is 
hiding from him. Why on earth doesn't he share what he knows with Harry, find 
out about the voice he's hearing and tackle Tom and the Basilisk himself?

Other than the fact that CoS would be a rather short book. ;-)

I hate to be a wet blanket, but mystery and adventure book plots frequently 
hang on the necessity of people not asking the right questions (Harry, anyone?) 
or not putting two and two together until the right point. Dumbledore's near 
omniscience and superior intelligence are a bit of a handicap in this respect.

Sue:
> I realize I just contradicted my first post, but all of your comments 
> caused me to go back and rethink.  As far as the masked DE's you'll 
> have a hard time convincing me Snape wasn't there.  I don't think 
> playing with his old friends is below him 

Eloise:
I can't argue that point, other than to say that I just think he's a better 
person than that.
I'll be very disappointed in him if he's not. Well, disappointed in JKR. In 
fact if she suggests that he's not, then I'll just carry on in the belief that 
she's *wrong*. ;-)

Sue:
>and it would not surprise 
> *me* to find out Snape is holding the leash on Malfoy and not the 
> other way around.  

Eloise:
Which I think I said, too, though we may mean different things by it.

Sue:
It is MVHO that Snape is directly in contact with 
> Voldemort.  That is what makes him so valuable to the Order.

Eloise:
I fear that he is, also.

Sue:
> I'm going to throw one more thing in because no one responded before:
> 
> In OotP, what was happening in the room with Rockwood moments before 
> Harry went to sleep and melded with Voldemort?  What was happening 
> just moments after?  Was the reason Snape was so upset about that 
> because he almost saw something that would have created some real 
> problems? Perhaps Snape was in that room too? If this is the case 
> what would the problems be and for whom?  Snape lovers?  Snape 
> doubters?


Eloise:
Well, I don't think it was anything in particular about what was going on in 
that dream, so much as the fact that it happened at all: it indicated that 
there *were* some real problems. Harry was not practising. He was allowing 
himself to indulge in dreams where the connection between himself and Voldemort were 
being strengthened, not weakened. Seeing this experience in Harry's mind was 
proof positive of that fact which Snape already suspected. Snape knew the 
room, he knew the man and he knew that the only way Harry had seen them was 
because Voldemort had put those images (albeit unwittingly) into his mind. 

Harry is proving to be a hopeless case. He doesn't want to learn to repel 
these dreams and visions. Snape has hit the nail on the head there, yet there he 
is, giving up his time to try to teach him this crucial skill. He doesn't want 
to be with Harry, his time is being wasted, he knows how important it is for 
Harry to learn to repel Voldemort but Harry just doesn't get it. He thinks he 
knows best how to tackle Voldemort; after all, he's the one getting apparently 
useful visions, he's the one who's fought him off three or four times (just 
like Snape goes off and does his own thing when he thinks Dumbledore's wrong - 
the pair of them do have some similarities). How incredibly frustrating for 
Snape.

Snape's eventual refusal to continue to teach Harry Occlumency was very 
wrong. But boy, can I see how it happened.

I doubt that Harry would have seen anything that could have incriminated 
Snape in any way. Harry already knows he was a DE; anything he might have heard 
him say/seen him do could have been explained in terms of either his not having 
been converted to Dumbledore's cause at the time or acting as a double agent 
later.

~Eloise


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Wed Mar 24 09:38:20 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 24 Mar 2004 10:38:20 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR's cats (was: Ginny's animagus)
Message-ID: <20040324093820.450C630E515@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 93814

> Laura:
> You know, this ties into something I've never understood.  JKR *hates* 
> cats. [...]
> However, throughout the books, cats are shown in a v. positive light -- 
> sympathetic/good/etc. characters are or have cats all the time.  In 
> general, JKR portrays cats as intelligent, sensitive to magic, and the 
> natural companions of witches and wizards.  

Viridis:
I'm not sure if she *hates* the cats or rather she dislikes them, because (and that's a fact she admitted herself) she is allergic (she gave that quality to Hagrid, too).
As for positive portrayal of cats I see two, munually non-exclusive possibilities:
1. In spite of her allergia JKR is a sensible person. And every sensible person (some biased dog-overs excluded) knows that cats *are indeed* intelligent, sensitive (not only to magic), commuicative and generally superior creatures. So their positive description is nothing but true.
2. Cats have culturally long standng affinity with magic, witches and so on. They were burnt on the stakes together with their humans (why, ah, why hasn't ben RSPCA founded earlier?!). More sensible cultures gave them godlike qualities (cats mummies etc.). BTW of Ginny, usually being compared to a cat is a compliment for a woman (and rightly so - by aestets cats can be divided into two categories: beautiful and very beautiful). 

Cheers, Viridis 
P.S> I admit there are several non-complimentary feline-origin terms for women. Work of dog-loving fifth columnists, undoubtedly :)
________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!



From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Wed Mar 24 09:43:30 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 24 Mar 2004 10:43:30 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dating (Re: Horse Feathers)
Message-ID: <20040324094330.BA63230E511@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 93815

Geoff:
> Another point. I looked up Flamel on the web and it is suggested that 
> he was born in 1330. If so, then extrapolating forward with the entry 
> in the "enormous old book" would give us 1996. (1330 + 665 +1). But 
> since the action is taking place in 1992, there is a slight 
> discrepancy.
> 
> Even so, it lends credence to the idea that the library books are 
> self-updating (or that JKR found a different date).

The dating of HP books is always a problem. Is the Flamel's birtday really sure? Because if was born ca. 1330, than everything is fine (1296 is still *circa* 1330). 

Cheers, Viridis
________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!



From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Wed Mar 24 09:55:52 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 24 Mar 2004 10:55:52 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry bezoared
Message-ID: <20040324095552.2756B30E515@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 93816

> Phil (confusinglyso):
> 5) DD returns alone to Harry!Mort with the Eagle Owl (now also a 
> spy), the Draught of Living Death, and the bezoar. DD first modifies 
> the memories of Harry and LV. Harry can now recall nothing after the 
> green flash, and LV is left thinking he could not touch Harry. DD 
> removes the spell bubble and feeds Harry the Draught of Living Death 
> while saying how sorry he is to have to kill one so young but it is 
> for the greater good of the WW. As the poison takes effect, LV leaves 
> Harry's body, takes possession of the eagle owl, and escapes. DD then 
> administers the antidote, the bezoar, and Harry is once again just 
> Harry, except for some odd memory of the name Tom Riddle, 
> parceltongue, and maybe some other talents yet to be revealed.
> 
> 6) The eagle owl is a good choice by DD as it will be unlikely to be 
> attacked by another creature and so should provide a good solution to 
> LV and yet last as DD's spy. Is this part of the answer to 
> Dumbledore's seeming omniscience?

Interesting theory. But I have one question - unless I have misundersttod something. If DD went to all this trouble to transfer Voldei from Harry to owl etc., why release the owl? Why not put into a good cage, feed a bit and keep far from other animals to prevent Voldie moving to other animal (or - if al proves to week supervise his change into another substitute, but always guarded.) Finally after Harry's graduaton present him to the cage and ask:
"Here is an owl (a gerbill) with the spirit of your parents murderer; according to prophecy only on of you can srvive and nobody else but you can kill him. I understand you may not want to tarnish your wand, so I bought you a shotgun as a graduation gift." 

Cheers, Viridis
________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!



From eloiseherisson at aol.com  Wed Mar 24 09:58:01 2004
From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 04:58:01 EST
Subject: Underage Magic during war & at the MoM
Message-ID: <122.2d0da8dc.2d92b5a9@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93817

Eloise:
> > Who also wonders why there was no immediate consequence to the Ton
>> Tongue Toffee incident, which *was* a piece of underage magic
>> performed on a Muggle in a house which seems closely monitored. 

Carol: 
> I'm still not convinced that the MoM knows *who* is performing the
> magic, but Arthur must have had some way of covering up his own spells
> for "sorting out" the problem--or possibly he informed the MoM that
> he'd be picking up Harry that day, so they knew that an adult wizard
> would be in the house and magic that day could be ignored. 

Eloise:
Good point. Perhaps this *was* the cover, although it doesn't necessarily 
cover for the Statute of Secrecy. But perhaps Arthur, because of his work, has 
some sort of exemption there.

Carol: 
As for the
> candy that Fred dropped, Dudley's picking it up and eating it was not
> an act of underage magic. The magic to create it had already been
> performed, either at Hogwarts or The Burrow, where so much magic is
> being performed all the time that F and G's high jinks probably go
> unnoticed. 

Eloise:
Ooh! You should work for the MOM! 
I think it's a nice distinction, personally. The magic *to create the toffee* 
had been performed somewhere else, but the *application* of the magic stored, 
as it were, inside the toffee, happened in Privet Drive and on a Muggle.

Carol: 
> Also, even though magic was performed in the house on that day (and
> the MoM didn't necessarily know who performed it), no Muggles other
> than the Dursleys were present. As someone (Viridis?) pointed out, the
> MoM must know that the Dursleys know that Harry is a wizard. 

Eloise:
I did too, I think. 
But we're back to the beginning, here. The hover charm was performed *out of 
sight* of any Muggles, even of the Dursleys (it "risked notice" by Muggles) 
and the MOM didn't know and apparently didn't care who performed it. The fact 
that the charm was performed was enough to get Harry a warning.

Carol: 
<snip>
> Again, the Ton-tongue toffee incident wasn't technically underage
> magic but it did lead to magic being performed in the house. Either
> Arthur had some way of covering it up, as I think he must have, or the
> MoM knew the magic wasn't Harry's, which doesn't fit with the Dobby
> incident.

Eloise:
Exactly my point. What I was getting at was that the response to the other 
incidences was so swift. You would almost have expected Malfalda Hopkirk's owl 
to be swooping in before Arthur could set things right. I think there are some 
loose ends here and that Arthur having informed the Ministry of his visit is 
the only thing that goes any way towards explaining it. 

~Eloise



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From magarama11 at aol.com  Wed Mar 24 04:39:00 2004
From: magarama11 at aol.com (peliroja1118)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 04:39:00 -0000
Subject: Way for LV to die continued
Message-ID: <c3r3d4+28ff@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93818

sorry...i wasn't finished with my other post. here is the rest of 
what i had to say to support my theory:

JKR has alluded to the very many simliarities between Harry and LV ( 
as tom riddle, for ex.) There are so many unifying characteristics 
(they even share the same blood!), that the bodies coming together 
(but in essence still divided) just makes sense to me. They are so 
inextricably linked that a coming together of sorts seems quite 
plausible. A battle of minds, or thw will, or the heart seems an 
awfully great way to show who is greater after all, and I think it's 
one Harry could win. It also may be something LV doesn't expect.





From magarama11 at aol.com  Wed Mar 24 04:31:06 2004
From: magarama11 at aol.com (peliroja1118)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 04:31:06 -0000
Subject: Way for LV to die
Message-ID: <c3r2ua+dem9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93819

I have no clue if someone has ever posted something similar, but one 
way for LV to die would be by Harry possessing him, and doing the job 
from the inside out (reverse of book 5). The dueling wands won't 
work, and JKR laid the foundations for this to happen in OotP when 
she showed its possibility. Harry can kill LV by making him feel all 
the hurt he's caused...by filling him with love and regret and all 
the emotions he seems to lack. I see two possible results if this 
were to occur. One is that Harry will be sacrificing himself, and as 
a result, die. But maybe what Harry has in such abundance 
(love/heart) is greater than LV's powers and so he willl emerge 
unharmed, and give a truly happy ending to the series. In the end, 
Harry's defining characteristics will have to be what triumphs over 
LV: this has been hinted at in book 2 (the love in his veins from his 
mother proved deadly then) and in book five when LV couldn't bear to 
be in Harry's body bc of theses feelings. Those feelings saved 
Harry's life that night. Dumbledore also alluded to the tremendous 
power of heart/love in his talk with Harry in book 5. I think these 
clues cannot be overlooked. Remember, these have turned into moral 
tales. However, it remains to be seen if my theory is the way the 
love conquers over malice, spite and evil





From lionel_garth at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 24 09:53:32 2004
From: lionel_garth at yahoo.com (Lionel English)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 09:53:32 -0000
Subject: Weasley's ages
In-Reply-To: <c37l66+vhid@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3rlqs+j67c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93820

In the chat, Rowling says Charlie's 2 years older than Percy, but 
qualifies this with she's bad at math and she doesn't have her notes 
with her.  So the 2 year figure can't be taken as definitive, but it 
can be assumed that it is her intention that the age difference is 
not meant to be significantly larger than that between any of the 
other siblings.

We know Charlie was not at Hogwarts in PS/SS, when Percy was a 5th 
year.  Rachel also makes a convincing argument that he wasn't there 
the prior year, as Wood was captain that year, and Charlie was a 
Quidditch captain.  So Charlie was at least 4 years ahead of Percy, 
and must be at least 3 years older than him.  This is the smallest 
reasonable age difference we can manage between them, and the other 
statements that seem to make some implications about Charlie's age 
must be reconciled around them.

Gryfindor hasn't won the Quidditch cup for seven years before POA.  
Gryfindor hasn't won the Quidditch cup since Charlie left (according 
to Fred & George in PS/SS).  Gryfindor hasn't won the cup since 
Charlie Weasley had been seeker (POA).

These three statements, together, are the problem.  If Rowling truly 
doesn't intend for Charlie to be that much older than Percy, which 
the chat implies, then she has made a mistake with one or more of 
the above.

For me, the most problematic is Fred & George's statement that they 
haven't won since Charlie left.  The last statement doesn't preclude 
the fact that Charlie could have played additional seasons after 
that winning season.  This would allow Charlie to have left two 
years before PS/SS, and for his winning season to have been three 
years before that, when he was a fourth year.  Perhaps a number of 
other good players graduated that year, and despite his skill he 
couldn't field a winning team for the next three years.  Fred & 
George's statement is the only problem with this theory.  The only 
way I can see to reconcile it is to assume that, although the 
passage clearly states they're talking about the cup, perhaps 
Rowling meant to have them say or imply that they hadn't won a 
*game* since Charlie left--perhaps the year before PS/SS was really 
that bad.  Or perhaps the twins misspoke, and meant to say this 
instead.

The other alternative, if Gryfindor really hadn't won since Charlie 
*left*, is that Rowling overstated the length of time it had been 
since they won the Cup--perhaps it was only four or five years 
instead of seven.  But I like this theory less--if it really hadn't 
been that long, then I can't see them making such a big deal out of 
how long it had been since they won.

Lionel, just back from his honeymoon and following up a week late.






From p_implies_q at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 24 09:41:16 2004
From: p_implies_q at yahoo.com (p_implies_q)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 09:41:16 -0000
Subject: Horse Feathers
In-Reply-To: <c3okqt+m0a4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3rl3s+2cm0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93821

Kneasy wrote:
> The odds of the coincidence that we are presented with in 
PS/SS are 
> enormous, almost incalculable, even given that Harry has 
been at 
the 
> receiving end of one of the wands before. To think that Voldys 
attack 
> would influence Harry's choice ten years later is to argue that 
wands 
> can impart 'personality' to persons other than their users. I 
suppose 
> that some may say that it's the Voldy part of Harry that is 
influenced. 
> To do so is to presume that  Harry is more Voldy than Harry - 
now 
> there's a pleasant thought!

Alice, chiming in very late:
One thing I've seen advanced a lot in this debate that I don't 
understand is the assumption that there *must* be a part of 
Harry that is very like Voldemort, or even Tom Riddle.  The wands 
have the same core, and the same core only; likewise, Mr 
Ollivander, talking to Harry, only suggests greatness -- quite a 
big concept, without much moral shading on it (as it's used) -- as 
a likely parallel between him and Tom.  These wands are 
referred to as 'brothers', but are probably very different: none of 
their other attributes match up.  Furthermore, we don't even know 
how much difference there may be between one of Fawkes's 
feathers and another (properties may be identical, but there's no 
reason to assume this).

Long point short, the matched wands seem to suggest at least 
*one* property of soul in common between Harry and Tom 
Riddle/Voldemort, but not necessarily more.  And a similar, 
morally neutral 'property of soul' like greatness may not translate 
into a similarity of 'personality' (which seems a more 
psychological term) at all.

Alice





From catherinemck at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 24 10:43:16 2004
From: catherinemck at hotmail.com (catherinemckiernan)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 10:43:16 -0000
Subject: sirius as animagus - why didn't the deatheaters know pre OOP?
In-Reply-To: <c3redc+33rb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3roo4+2coh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93822

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "laura_clapham2002"
> <laura_clapham2002 at y...> wrote:
> > During my umpteenth rereading of OOP, the following struck me...
> > 
> > In Voldy War 1 we know that Wormtail was passing information to 
Voldy 
> > for a year before his fall. ...edited..  Wouldn't Peter have been 
> > passing this kind of info about the members of the Order? IF not 
why 
> > not?  What does this say about Peter? ...edited...
> > 
> > princess laura
> 
> bboy_mn:
> 
> A good spy NEVER tells ALL, because once you pass on everything you
> know, you have essentially out lived your usefullness. A good spy is
> like a good actor, you always leave them wanting more. Of course,
> that's just a thought.

Now Catherine McK:

A plausible thought, though! Another one is that Peter _did_ tell 
Voldemort, but Voldemort chose not to pass the information on to all 
and sundry. Poss. this coule be for fear of it getting leaked that he 
knew, or it might be that he wants to keep some control himself. Once 
LV is gone and as Lupin says the DEs are unhappy that Peter's actions 
contributed to his downhfall, Peter is not at all anxious to tell the 
secret that is keeping his life safe, albeit rat-shaped.

CAtherine McK





From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Wed Mar 24 11:02:09 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 24 Mar 2004 12:02:09 +0100
Subject: Potions Master Question
Message-ID: <20040324110209.B7BCC2A648D@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 93823

A question ? my search didn?t yield any results, so please send me to the relevant thread if it was previously discussed. 

[Dumbledore] is famous for defeating the dark wizard Grindelwald in 1945, for discovering the twelve uses of dragon's blood, and for his work on alchemy with his friend Nicolas Flamel. (HP Lexicon quoting Chocolate Frog Card)

Ergo ? Dumble himself must be of the top Potions Masters of WW.  I find it hard to believe he was just a clerk for Flamel. We don?t know what he was doing for better part of his life, so he could easily enjoy *beauty of the softly simmering cauldron with its shimmering fumes, the delicate power of liquids that creep through human veins, bewitching the mind, ensnaring the senses*.

So why he was teaching transfiguration? He is powerful enough to be equally good in both fields. But still... 

Any thoughts?
Cheers, Viridis

________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!



From belijako at online.no  Wed Mar 24 11:28:05 2004
From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 11:28:05 -0000
Subject: sirius as animagus - why didn't the deatheaters know pre OOP?
In-Reply-To: <c3qsfe+n486@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3rrc5+8oo6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93824

princess laura wrote:

<snip>In Voldy War 1 we know that Wormtail was passing information to 
Voldy for a year before his fall.  Yet it is implied in OOP that the 
death eaters did not know this [about Sirius being an animagus] until 
after Voldy's resurrection. <snip> Wouldn't Peter have been passing 
this kind of info about the members of the Order?

Berit replies:

I believe Peter realised it would be smart to not tell everything... 
Like Lucius, Peter is a very *slippery friend*, and would want to 
cover his back and have an escape route should something go terribly 
wrong. An when it did, he could turn into a rat and no one would be 
any wiser as to his whereabouts (except Sirius who he believed was 
safely locked up in Azkaban). His rat-disguise was a safety measure. 
I believe he did not tell either Voldemort or his DE's about Sirius, 
James and himself being animagi because it was useful to keep that 
information to himself. He could of course have told Voldemort about 
Sirius and James and "forgotten" to tell about himself. But if it 
came out his former friends were animagi, don't you think Voldemort 
would have suspected Peter might be one too and force him to admit 
it? No, the safest thing was to keep the whole marauder-animagi a 
secret. I think Voldemort only learned about Peter's rat-form when he 
came to his rescue in the Albanian woods.

Berit
http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html




From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 24 11:48:13 2004
From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 11:48:13 -0000
Subject: FILK: You're Doomed
Message-ID: <c3rsht+7qur@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93825

Song #11 from the CoS musical A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to 
the Chamber (there will be a total of 16)

You're Doomed (CoS, Chap. 14)

To the tune of I'm Calm, from Sondheim's A Funny Thing Happened on 
the Way to the Forum 

Dedicated to Eustace S.

Text and a brief excerpt here

http://users.bestweb.net/~foosie/forum.htm

THE SCENE: Hagrid's cabin. Present are HAGRID, Fudge, Dumbledore and 
Harry & Ron under the Invisibility Cloak.  Enter LUCIUS, with a 
signed petition

LUCIUS
You're doomed, You're doomed,
You're utterly doomed,
You cannot the "killins" subdue
`Cause I'm such a mean creep
I'll say that a clean sweep 
Is due. 

We're in accord
My governing board
Immediate action demands
Get Hagrid arrested,
Headmaster detested 
Is canned

I have 12 signed governor sigs,
Up is the jig
Hagrid to brig
I tell our grand old man
Dumbledore, Dumbledore, Dumbledore 
Scram

You're doomed, You're doomed,
Soon to be entombed
Your school is now in my control,
Let no one confront me,
I'll say it. . .
Quite bluntly. . .
You're doomed,
Oh, so doomed,
Oh, so . . .

HAGRID (spoken, as he departs from his cabin)
Not Azkaban!

(Exit all, except LUCIUS, who remains behind to gloat)

LUCIUS
I'm damned, I'm damned,
I'm utterly damned,
I'm Ever-So-Evil!indeed
The Gospel according
To Lucius is hoarding 
And greed.

I'm demon-themed
I'm Slytherin green
With pure blood as frozen as ice
In Mudblood tormenting
I'm further augmenting
My vice

With my fell plot, Flourish & Blotts
The Heir is not
Gonna get caught 
Countdown now has begun 
10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2
.One
Thing that's now clear
Good guys disappear,
No more to serve as Hogwarts staff
It's premature to,
But I plan for sure to


(spoken) One to me, for I've set seething hate nigh
..  

HAGRID (spoken, off-stage) Not Azkaban! 

LUCIUS (music) 
..laugh!

(He laughs demonically.)

     -  CMC

HARRY POTTER FILKS 
http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm 





From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Wed Mar 24 11:56:19 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 11:56:19 -0000
Subject: Horse Feathers
In-Reply-To: <c3r9bc+p4n1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3rt13+4c83@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93826

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatelderone" <greatelderone at y...> wrote:
> > 
> > Why  would Ollie think that the counterpart wand to the one that 
> >killed  his parents and scarred him be just the wand for Harry? 
> 
greatelderonr:
> Because he was running out of wands. Remember. Testing out each wand 
> probably narrowed down the category for him until he decided to give 
> the phoenix wand a try. 
> 

Kneasy:
Not so. "....looked instead at the thousands of narrow boxes piled
neatly right  up  to  the ceiling."
Whereas "...the pile of tried wands was mounting higher and higher on
the spindly chair." (PS chap.5) Still several thousand  to go, it seems.

We don't know the significance of the different woods Ollivander
uses to make the wands but he only uses three substances for
magical cores - unicorn hairs, phoenix feathers, dragon heart-
strings. And he implies that it is the core that matters - "No two
unicorns, dragons or phoenixes are the same.." 

Therefore on average, every third wand Harry tried would have a 
Phoenix feather core; in fact, he tries one of Maple and Phoenix 
feather early on. What is significant is that it is a  feather from
one particular Phoenix (Fawkes) that bonds to him.

greatelderone:
> That makes no sense. The wand isn't inherently evil only its user. 
> Harry would recoil from Voldemort or something touched by him not the 
> wand unless it's being touched by him. 
> 

Kneasy:
Perhaps. But if you accept that the wand chooses the wizard, then it
must do so based on some criteria. How does the wand choose?
Voldy's wand chose an evil wizard, or if it  chose Tom, a twisted 
personality. What does that say about the nature of the wand?

greatelderone: 
> How would dumbledore even know that the wand would choose Harry. 
> If it's so easy as you say why doesn't he just create more phoenix 
> wands and start handling them out as weapons or tools of protection 
> to people chosen by it? The fact that the wands are rare and yet 
> Fawkes's feather are not implies that very few are chosen for the 
> honor.

Kneasy:
Good question. But I bet he did know that it would end up with Harry.

Fawkes' feathers not rare? Only two have been given. How much rarer
can you get? Sure, others float to the ground on occasion but  they
haven't ended up in wands. Maybe they're not suitable, maybe they
have to be specifically chosen. Ollivander states that the feathers
used in wands are tail feathers. What sort of feathers has Fawkes shed
at other times? Are they tail feathers? It doesn't say, but if they're not
then they're no good for wands.
Why choose Harry as the recepient of this special  wand? Easy. The
Prophecy. DD believes Harry is *the one* who can vanquish Voldy.
Nobody else really matters if the war is to be won; only Harry can do it.
Voldy has already tried to kill him at Godrics Hollow and as DD tells
Harry in 'The Lost Prophecy' in OoP, he always believed that Voldy
would come back. He admits that Harry needs special protection,
specifically that of family blood, but he must also be aware that 
Harry will not spend all his days in Privet Drive. A wand that can 
deflect spells from Voldy's wand would be very useful. 

You may not agree. That's your privilege. But just  basing your
dissent on chance as the deciding factor (something JKR is not
renowned for) does limit the scope for devious speculation,
something I find addictive. Or maybe you do have a theory of
how  and why the two main combatants in the series have 
somehow ended up with wands that can cancel each other out.
Chance  is unlikely IMO.

Kneasy





From vmonte at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 24 11:59:34 2004
From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 11:59:34 -0000
Subject: "You heard James?" (Was: Harry bezoared)
In-Reply-To: <c3r57m+qj98@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3rt76+blot@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93827

Lynette wrote:
Then I think of Lupin's remark in PoA. He said "you heard James?"
(paraphrasing) to Harry during the patronus lesson.  Why?  He didn't
question Harry's hearing Lily's scream. Does he know something about
James yet to be told?

Carol wrote:
I think this remark is one of our first clues that Lupin was a good
friend of James's, a fact he's been concealing from Harry and now has
to partially admit. 

vmonte responds:
Everyone knows that Lupin was friends with James -- why would he hide 
that from Harry?  I think Lynette made a good observation. Lupin's 
remark sounds more like he was surprised that Harry heard James 
voice?! (Maybe it wasn't James's voice after all?) I think we will 
find out something curious about that night.

vmonte




From belijako at online.no  Wed Mar 24 12:11:32 2004
From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 12:11:32 -0000
Subject: Snape or Wormtail at QWC? Was: Snape, trying very hard not to smile
In-Reply-To: <c3qjsg+glka@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3rttk+ogvn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93828

Heather wrote:
Until this moment, I have always felt that Snape was likely involved 
in the Muggle-baiting and was the one who flipped Mrs Roberts upside-
down in mid-air. But suddenly, I realized that it was more likely 
to be Wormtail under that mask.<snip> We have no canon to say that 
Wormtail and LV were actually at the campsite following the QWC, but 
we do have LV's statement that he was well aware of the QWC, and that 
Barty Crouch Jr was present.  He states in GoF:

'...then, of course, there was the Quidditch World Cup... I thought 
his protection might be weaker there, away from his relations and 
Dumbledore, but I was not yet strong enough to attempt kidnap in the 
midst of a horde of Ministry wizards."'  GoF  pg 570 Canadian Ed 2000

Berit replies:

To me, this statement indicates that Voldemort and Wormtail was *not* 
present at the QWC. He knew it would be foolish to attempt a 
kidnapping at a place where tens of thousands of wizards were 
swarming all over the place and the security was high. So it would be 
downright stupid to come there in the first place. And considering 
what Voldemort thought of the DE's silly performance of muggle-
baiting at the QWC, how likely is it that Wormtail as Voldie's right 
hand (and under his heavy supervision and control), was actively 
involved in it? Not very likely I'd say :-)

This doesn't mean Snape had to have been one of the DE's having fun 
with muggle-baiting :-) It never entered my mind he could have been. 
Firstly, even if Snape turns out to be an unreformed DE, I have a 
hard time imagining him enjoying that type of "childish" pranks. I 
think it is beneath him, evil or not, just as it is beneath Lord 
Voldemort. I believe upper class Lucius must have been quite drunk in 
the first place to embark on such a silly and risky mission.

Secondly, I don't believe Snape was present at the QWC at all. There 
is no mention of him; Harry and his friends did not spot him 
anywhere. Of course, this could just mean that he disappeared in the 
crowd, there were after all a lot of people gathered in one area. 
Harry couldn't possibly have bumped into everyone there. But the 
reason I think Snape was not at the QWC is that we don't see *any* 
Hogwarts teachers present, not even Dumbledore. And Harry saw a lot 
of ministry officials, fellow students and "common" wizards he didn't 
know passing by his tent, which incidentally was pitched right by the 
main travelling route from the camp to the pitch... But no 
Dumbledore, McGonagall or Snape (or even Hogwarts' own 
Quidditch "expert" Madame Hooch) were to be seen going up that road...
The QWC is a big and celebrated event, but that doesn't mean every 
wizard wants to or is able to show up (the only reason the Weasleys 
were there was because Bagman had been able to give them free 
tickets). I don't remember how close the QWC was to the start of term 
at Hogwarts, but my guess is that the Hogwarts staff was too busy 
preparing for the imminent return of the students to have time for 
the QWC :-)

Berit
http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html




From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net  Wed Mar 24 12:24:45 2004
From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 6:24:45 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape or Wormtail at QWC? Was: Snape, trying very hard not to smile
Message-ID: <20040324122445.LVBF29216.out009.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 93829

{Berit}

I don't remember how close the QWC was to the start of term 
at Hogwarts, but my guess is that the Hogwarts staff was too busy 
preparing for the imminent return of the students to have time for 
the QWC :-)


{Silverthorne}

Not to mention that this was the year of the Triwizard Cup--so not only would the Hogwarts staff be scrambling for regular classes, but also to get Hogwarts ready to accomidate the other schools...

Anne/Silverthorne


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Wed Mar 24 12:44:20 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 12:44:20 -0000
Subject: Snape, trying very hard not to smile? Or is he just allergic to cats?
In-Reply-To: <c3r75i+425o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3rvr4+ilkm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93830

<I snipped so much stuff here I should get an award!> 

Sue wrote:
> I'm going to throw one more thing in because no one responded 
before:
> 
> In OotP, what was happening in the room with Rockwood moments 
before 
> Harry went to sleep and melded with Voldemort?  What was happening 
> just moments after?  Was the reason Snape was so upset about that 
> because he almost saw something that would have created some real 
> problems? Perhaps Snape was in that room too? If this is the case 
> what would the problems be and for whom?  Snape lovers?  Snape 
> doubters?


Potioncat:
Sue, can you give a chapter for this?  I don't recall which incident 
it was and I'd like to read it while I sit in the sun on the fence. 
And should we change the name of this post, I'm not sure how to.
Potioncat




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Wed Mar 24 12:50:37 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 12:50:37 -0000
Subject: Snape, trying very hard not to smile? Or is he just allergic to cats?
In-Reply-To: <c3r8es+g5n4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3s06t+2plq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93831


> >Carol wrote:
> > I really, really hope Snape wasn't part of that Muggle-baiting
> > incident. Like DD, he doesn't seem tohave
> > been present at the QWC, but there's no canon to indicate that he
> was absent, either.
> 

Sue wrote:
  I would agree with you that Snape would find their predicament way 
too reminiscent of his own experiences.  


Potioncat: I also found the idea of his being involved repulsive.  
It's one of those we may never know unless there is a plot related 
reason to bring it out.  On the other hand, JKR could write one heck 
of a JKR-answers-your-questions book for charity!
Potioncat




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Wed Mar 24 13:03:26 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 13:03:26 -0000
Subject: sirius as animagus - why didn't the deatheaters know pre OOP?
In-Reply-To: <c3qsfe+n486@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3s0uu+m1lt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93832

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "laura_clapham2002" 
<laura_clapham2002 at y...> wrote:

{snip}
> In Voldy War 1 we know that Wormtail was passing information to 
Voldy 
> for a year before his fall.  Yet it is implied in OOP that the 
death 
> eaters did not know this until after Voldy's resurrection - ie 
Lucius 
> Malfoy recognising Sirius at Platform 9 3/4 in OOP. 

Potioncat:
I don't have books in front of me and I'm remembering some comments 
made on other posts, but here are some of my half-baked ideas.

--Someone on another post pointed out that there was a spy from the 
order for a year which may or may not have been Peter.  We do know 
he betrayed the Order but we don't know when he actually went over. 
I don't have a real opinion here, just a thought in the back of my 
head that things may not be what they seem.

--Whenever it was, it certainly looks as if he never told anyone 
about the animagus skills.  Perhaps he kept this secret so he would 
have an escape plan.  

--James, Sirius, and Peter didn't let the Order know about being 
animagi either.

Potioncat





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Wed Mar 24 13:14:24 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 13:14:24 -0000
Subject: "You heard James?" (Was: Harry bezoared)
In-Reply-To: <c3rt76+blot@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3s1jg+vut7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93833

 
(snip) 
> vmonte responds:
> Everyone knows that Lupin was friends with James -- why would he 
hide 
> that from Harry?  I think Lynette made a good observation. Lupin's 
> remark sounds more like he was surprised that Harry heard James 
> voice?! (Maybe it wasn't James's voice after all?) I think we will 
> find out something curious about that night.
> 

Potioncat:
But when Lily's form comes out of the wand, she says, "Your father 
is coming."  I think Carol is right about Lupin's "You heard James?"
Potioncat 




From vmonte at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 24 13:23:23 2004
From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 13:23:23 -0000
Subject: Potions Master Question
In-Reply-To: <20040324110209.B7BCC2A648D@front.interia.pl>
Message-ID: <c3s24b+qc4i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93834

Viridis wrote:
[Dumbledore] is famous for defeating the dark wizard Grindelwald in 
1945, for discovering the twelve uses of dragon's blood, and for his 
work on alchemy with his friend Nicolas Flamel. (HP Lexicon quoting 
Chocolate Frog Card)
Ergo ? Dumble himself must be of the top Potions Masters of WW.  I 
find it hard to believe he was just a clerk for Flamel. We don?t know 
what he was doing for better part of his life, so he could easily 
enjoy *beauty of the softly simmering cauldron with its shimmering 
fumes, the delicate power of liquids that creep through human veins, 
bewitching the mind, ensnaring the senses*.
 
So why he was teaching transfiguration? He is powerful enough to be 
equally good in both fields. But still... 

vmonte responds:
Great comments!  Maybe DD is Flamel.  I don't think that it is a 
coincidence that DD is at Hogwarts -- he needed to be there. 
(I think that the Order is much older than we have been lead to 
believe.) 

vmonte 




From rredordead at aol.com  Wed Mar 24 14:05:50 2004
From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 14:05:50 -0000
Subject: Animagi  despised by Dark Wizards?  (Was: Sirius/Tonks)
In-Reply-To: <c3qpj1+ne1r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3s4ju+i3co@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93835

> Kathy wrote:
> One of the most confusing statements in Oop, for me, was when
> Bellatrix says that she was busy fighting the Animagus Black. <snip>
> 
> Allie wrote: 
> I took that to mean, "I was busy fighting Black, who is an
> Animagus." <snip>
> 
> Kathy responded:
> <snip>  So, instead of Bella just saying I was busy fighting Black, 
she was basically saying I was fighting someone who looked like Black.
(the Tonks theory grew
> from there) Even if it may not have been Tonks, I still feel that it
> wasn't Sirius <snip>
> 
> Carol wrote:
> Since I've already pointed out that an animagus form is by 
definition
> an animal, not a person, and Sirius's animagus form is a black dog,
> let me try another tack. Bellatrix is stating that she is fighting
> "the animagus Black," not fighting someone who has taken on the
> animagus Black's form. So I think that Allie's reading, "I was
> fighting Black, who is an animagus," is correct. But let's explore a
> little further to figure out why she expressed the idea as she did,
> instead of saying what we might expect under the circumstances, "I 
was
>  fighting my cousin Sirius," or "I was fighting Sirius Black" if she
> doesn't want to acknowledge the relationship.
> 
> I think what we should look at here is speech patterns. Bellatrix 
has
> several different ways of speaking: Haughty formality in the 
Pensieve
> scene, where she behaves like a wrongly imprisoned queen; baby talk 
to
> taunt Harry; her normal speech pattern; and the speech she uses in
> addressing Voldemort. 
> 
> <snipped some very interesting examples of Bellatrix's speech 
patterns>
> 
> To sum up, I don't think we need to assume that Bellatrix means
> anything more than the literal meaning of her stilted phrase. She
> could have said, "I was fighting my cousin Sirius," but that's not 
the
> right style for a DE addressing Voldemort, and in any case, she's
> probably as ashamed of the relationship as Sirius was. And as 
someone
> else has already pointed out, she wanted to leave Harry in no doubt
> that she knew about Sirius's "big disguise," as he himself expressed
> it earlier.


Mandy here:
Well explained Carol. Sorry I had to snip. 

I would just like to add the idea that being an Animagus is an 
ability that is looked down upon by the Purebloods.  

The ability to transform into an animal may take great skill, but 
live any part of your life as an animal, could be looked down upon as 
gross and discussing by those who look down upon animals as less than 
human.   We know that the Purebloods look down upon anyone who is not 
100% pureblooded for atleast the last 20 generations! (Just a 
hypothetical figure to demonstrate their fanaticisms.)  They despise 
magical humans who spend anytime with humans of non-magical blood, 
half-breed wizards like Hagrid, and those inflicted, like Lupin 
amoung others.  For anyone to taint their blood with anything that is 
not pure wizarding human is simply a blood traitor.  I propose that 
the Purebloods most definitely despise Animagi as wizards who choose 
to use their skill to transform themselves in to animals.

Do we have any examples of any Dark Wizard animagi other than Peter 
Pettigrew?  And Pettigrew is definitely looked down upon by the DE 
and Voldemort.

I think Bellatrix was using it as an insult. The 'Animagus Black!' 
The one member of her family who dares use magic to transform himself 
into an animal!  Its use is akin to Bellatrix using the expression 
the 'Blood Traitor Black.'  Or in the case of her sister the 'Muggle 
Lover Black.'

Cheers Mandy




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Wed Mar 24 14:17:31 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 14:17:31 -0000
Subject: Potions Master Question
In-Reply-To: <20040324110209.B7BCC2A648D@front.interia.pl>
Message-ID: <c3s59r+6bht@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93836

Viridis wrote:
(snipping) 
> Ergo ? Dumble himself must be of the top Potions Masters of WW.  I 
find it hard to believe he was just a clerk for Flamel. We don?t 
know what he was doing for better part of his life, so he could 
easily enjoy *beauty of the softly simmering cauldron with its 
shimmering fumes, the delicate power of liquids that creep through 
human veins, bewitching the mind, ensnaring the senses*.
> 
> So why he was teaching transfiguration? He is powerful enough to 
be equally good in both fields. But still... 


Potioncat:
Well, young Albus goes to Headmaster Dippit and says, "Please, I'd 
like to apply for the potionmaster position."
And Headmaster Dippet says, "Let's see how you get on with 
transfigurations first, shall we?"
(this really flies well if DD never gets to teach potions and Dippit 
is Snape's father and DD is taking it out on Snape now)

On another note, if your life span is 200 years or so, it seems you 
might hold several different types of jobs for different 
organizations.  Also, I think the real reason DD is at Hogwarts is 
because of the special magic it holds.

On a third note:  We've been told Snape was famous for dark arts, 
not potions.  Yet we know he is a powerful potions maker (per 
Lupin)  So I would think a very talented wizard would be put where 
his talents are most needed rather than where his preference lies.

But that is really an interesting thought. A lot more attention has 
been given to DD teaching transfigurations than to his earlier work. 
If DD is a talented potion maker, and so is Snape, what might they 
be cooking up together?
Potioncat





From jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net  Wed Mar 24 14:36:16 2004
From: jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net (Robert Jones)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 14:36:16 -0000
Subject: Why does Ron have a crush on Hermione?
Message-ID: <c3s6d0+qdqp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93837

I didn't mean to insult shippers with my earlier post about "a 
little romance."  And to placate you all, here's a shipping related 
question:

Why does Ron have a crush on Hermione?  She's "plain" looking, so 
it's not her looks.  It's not jealousy since Harry hasn't shown 
interest in her (or vice versa).  Her main character traits seem to 
be that she is bookish and bossy ? why would he be attracted to 
that?  She has proven herself to be brave and talented on their 
adventures with Harry ? but is that all?

I'm not saying that no boy could be interested in her (Krum is), but 
why is Ron?  Given what we know about his personality and his family 
life, I just don't see why a boy like Ron would be attracted to a 
girl like her.  Could someone please explain it?





From falkelihu at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 24 14:30:07 2004
From: falkelihu at yahoo.com (Elihu Falk)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 06:30:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Underage Magic during war & at the MoM
In-Reply-To: <d7.6752fb6.2d917d76@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20040324143007.22741.qmail@web61102.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93838



Eloise commented in her mail about the ton Tongue Toffee incident and the fact that it *was* a piece of underage magic performed on a Muggle in a house which seems closely monitored. 
 
Elihu's answer:
 
No spell was done in the Dursley house to create the Ton Tongue Toffee; that had probably been done at the burrow. and Dudley eating it wasn't a spell, although it may have activated a new spell.
In addition, Arther Weasley, an adult wizard was present. Maybe the MOM can't pinpoint the spells, but can check who was in the right place at the right time to do them. If Harry was the only wizard, then he must have done it; however, if Arther Weasley was there, the ministry can't know who it was.


Elihu
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From delwynmarch at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 24 15:01:16 2004
From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 15:01:16 -0000
Subject: Sirius/Tonks
In-Reply-To: <Sea2-F531ck7smmeCT700003ce1@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <c3s7rs+umpf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93839

Kathy King wrote:

> One of the most confusing statements in Oop, for me, was when 
> Bellatrix says that she was busy fighting the Animagus Black. (pg. 
> 812)

Del :
I was very confused by that statement too when I read it.

Kathy :
> Well, Black's animagus form was a big black dog and we know 
> she was not fighting a big black dog. So what did she mean by 
> animagus? This started me thinking and looking. What if Bella new 
> she was not fighting the true Sirius Black but some animagus *form 
> of Black?

Del :
I've read the responses people gave to your post, and unless I 
missed some, nobody asked the first and obvious question : how would 
she know that ?
And the consequent questions : would anyone else know it too then ? 
Would DD know it ? Would DD be lying to Harry when he pretends to 
believe Sirius is dead ? If anyone else knows about Sirius actually 
being alive, why don't they say so ? Etc...

Kathy :
> These questions made me think of Sirius's second cousin Tonks who 
> is capable of changing her appearance at will, a metamorphmagus. 
> (pg. 52)

Del :
As many people have stated, an Animagus is not the same as a 
Metamorphagus.

I gave it some thought, and came up with quite a few reasons for 
Bellatrix to say "the Animagus Black".

1. She was being redundant. It does happen. Or maybe Pippin (I 
think, sorry otherwise) is right, and it's all part of a specific 
speech pattern.

2. She was putting the emphasis on Sirius being an Animagus. Why ?

    2.1. Maybe Animagi are supposed to be stronger wizards than 
most. So basically, she would mean to say that she was the only one 
who was brave enough to fight Sirius.

    2.2. Maybe LV had a special interest in Sirius because he was an 
Animagus. He'd learned only relatively recently about Sirius being 
an Animagus, maybe he didn't like it, and had given specific orders 
about him ?

3. She was putting the emphasis on Sirius being "the Black who is an 
Animagus". Would that mean there was *another* Black at the MoM that 
night ? After all, she's a Black herself, she would know better than 
anyone else.
Of course, she might just have considered Tonks as a Black.

4. It could also be the other way around and Bellatrix could have 
meant "the Animagus who's called Black", which would mean that she 
knew/thought that there was another Animagus there. As far as we 
know, nobody else is an Animagus, but we know so little ! Who knows 
if among the Aurors, there isn't an Animagus ?
And then again, she might actually mean Tonks again, and 
use "Animagus" in a broad sense covering all shape-shifters.

Just a few thoughts.

Del




From l_m_hunter at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 24 14:53:20 2004
From: l_m_hunter at hotmail.com (lisa84may)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 14:53:20 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Re:  Why does Ron have a crush on Hermione?
In-Reply-To: <c3s6d0+qdqp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3s7d0+b6v1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93840

Robert asked:
> Why does Ron have a crush on Hermione?

Why does anyone like anyone? Sometimes you can't help who you're 
attracted to. 

I think a better question is why did Krum like Hermione, he could 
have had any girl at Hogwarts yet he picked the plain bookworm. Ron 
had trouble finding a date to the Yule ball, therefore he is not so 
attractive himself.





From falkelihu at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 24 14:45:16 2004
From: falkelihu at yahoo.com (Elihu Falk)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 06:45:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Horse Feathers
In-Reply-To: <c3piqn+lpkk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040324144516.31087.qmail@web61108.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93841



vmonte wrote:
<snip>
Perhaps the prophecy is vague because it concerns 4 children.  The prophecy only states what month these children were born; it says nothing about what year. 

Neville and Harry are born in the same month and year. 
But how about Ginny or Luna?
 
Elihu's answer:
 
I don't have the book in front of me, but I thimk the prophecy says: "And the Dark Lord shall mark *him* as his equal, but *he* shall have powers the Dark Lord knows not." the words I marked do show up in the prophecy, and state that it's someone male, not possibly Ginny, Luna or any other girl.
 

Elihu
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From delwynmarch at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 24 15:09:42 2004
From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 15:09:42 -0000
Subject: The power LV knows not
Message-ID: <c3s8bm+hvgn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93842


Tom Riddle was a half-blood raised in a Muggle orphanage, who ended 
up in Slytherin.

Is it possible that he never received any love from anyone ?

That would explain why Harry has a power that LV doesn't know : not 
because Harry has exceptionally a lot of love, but simply because LV 
never received any.

Am I completely crazy, or is it worth exposing my ideas supporting 
this theory, and my suppositions about the future of the War ?

Del




From lhuntley at fandm.edu  Wed Mar 24 15:23:10 2004
From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 10:23:10 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why does Ron have a crush on Hermione?
In-Reply-To: <c3s6d0+qdqp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <28C41929-7DA7-11D8-94CF-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 93843

Robert Jones:
> Why does Ron have a crush on Hermione?  She's "plain" looking, so
> it's not her looks.  It's not jealousy since Harry hasn't shown
> interest in her (or vice versa).  Her main character traits seem to
> be that she is bookish and bossy ? why would he be attracted to
> that?  She has proven herself to be brave and talented on their
> adventures with Harry ? but is that all?

> I'm not saying that no boy could be interested in her (Krum is), but
> why is Ron?  Given what we know about his personality and his family
> life, I just don't see why a boy like Ron would be attracted to a
> girl like her.  Could someone please explain it?

I'm actually a H/H shipper, but I'll take a stab at your question.  ^_^

First of all, I would disagree with your implication that Hermione is 
not attractive enough to get a boy's attention.  True, she is no Fleur 
or Cho (or, I would argue, Ginny), but I do think that she's pleasant 
enough to look at (esp. as her teeth have been fixed).  We do know that 
she can make herself "pretty" (at least in Harry's opinion) when she 
takes the time to primp, which suggests to me that while's she not 
stunningly attractive, she has got *something* going for her in the 
looks department.

As for why Ron in particular is attracted to her, I'd say it's 
partially a proximity crush, for one thing.  Ron doesn't really seem to 
interact with other girls very much, and it's only natural for 
long-time friends to at least *wonder* what it would be like to have a 
romantic relationship.  They do argue all the time, but a lot of guys 
(esp. ones that are immature or inexperienced about girls) tend to take 
this as a sign of interest on the girl's part.

Furthermore, I'd argue that Ron's family life *does* contribute to his 
crush.  Like it or not, children have a strong tendency to form the 
same kind of relationship they see their parents in, esp. when you 
start looking at it from a power perspective.  For instance, a girl 
growing up in a family in which her father calls all the shots is very 
likely to find a husband who is a little dominating (whereas I, whose 
parents have a relationship much like Molly and Arthur's, find the idea 
of actual patriarchy weird and almost repulsive).  In Ron's case, Molly 
really does boss Arthur around quite a bit -- I'd say she nags at him 
much the way she treats her children.  Naturally, Ron subconsciously 
feels that this is how a man and a woman in a relationship *should* 
interact.

Thus, since Hermione and he *do* interact in this way (which I think 
stems from an inherent conflict of their personalities), he get a crush 
on her.

That's my initial take on it anyway -- I'd never really thought it 
through before, thanks for giving me a reason to!

Laura



From przepla at ipartner.com.pl  Wed Mar 24 15:32:16 2004
From: przepla at ipartner.com.pl (Przemyslaw "Pshemekan" Plaskowicki)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 16:32:16 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why does Ron have a crush on Hermione? [SHIP]
In-Reply-To: <c3s6d0+qdqp@eGroups.com>
References: <c3s6d0+qdqp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4061AA00.7050604@ipartner.com.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 93844

On 3/24/2004 3:36 PM, Robert Jones wrote :
> I didn't mean to insult shippers with my earlier post about "a 
> little romance."  And to placate you all, here's a shipping related 
> question:
> 
> Why does Ron have a crush on Hermione?  She's "plain" looking, so 
> it's not her looks.  It's not jealousy since Harry hasn't shown 
> interest in her (or vice versa).  Her main character traits seem to 
> be that she is bookish and bossy  why would he be attracted to 
> that?  She has proven herself to be brave and talented on their 
> adventures with Harry  but is that all?
> 
> I'm not saying that no boy could be interested in her (Krum is), but 
> why is Ron?  Given what we know about his personality and his family 
> life, I just don't see why a boy like Ron would be attracted to a 
> girl like her.  Could someone please explain it?
> 

Because "Love is blind"?

One might argue, that Ron have a crush on Hermione just because she is 
nearby and they share common past and spent a lot of time together but 
this is non satisfactory as the same things can be said about Harry, and 
he does not have a crush on her.

The point is, regardless of how much we would like it to be otherwise, 
love (and human emotions), can not be understood by sheer logic.

Besides, Ron can just be attracted to a girl with which one might have a 
sensible conversation, not just some superficial beauty. Or maybe he 
just like the brights in Hermione's eyes when they are bickering.

It is enough difficult to say why ourselves are loving our Significant 
Others. Answering why someone else have a crush on someone is near to 
impossibility.

Regards,
-- 
Przemyslaw "Pshemekan" Plaskowicki
Everyone ought to worship God according to his own inclinations, and not 
to be constrained by force. (Flavius Josephus, Life)



From delwynmarch at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 24 15:39:34 2004
From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 15:39:34 -0000
Subject: Why does Ron have a crush on Hermione?
In-Reply-To: <c3s6d0+qdqp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3sa3m+hds1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93845

Robert Jones wrote:
> Why does Ron have a crush on Hermione?  She's "plain" looking, so 
> it's not her looks.  It's not jealousy since Harry hasn't shown 
> interest in her (or vice versa).  Her main character traits seem 
> to  be that she is bookish and bossy ? why would he be attracted 
> to that?  She has proven herself to be brave and talented on their 
> adventures with Harry ? but is that all?

Del :

1. Why does anyone have a crush on anyone else ? Not always easy to 
say.

2. Plain looking : have you ever heard that beauty is in the eye of 
the beholder ? (I hope I got that right, English is not my first 
language). What seems plain to you might be beautiful to someone 
else. I'm always amazed at what kind of women my husband finds 
beautiful : *not* the ones you would expect !

3. Bookish and bossy : you could also translate this as "smart and 
confident", 2 things that Ron doesn't think he is and wishes he 
were. He's always felt trampled by his 5 big brothers, he doesn't 
think he can be exceptional, he doesn't even think he measures up to 
them or to Harry. Hermione is overly self-confident, and everyone 
agrees that she's one of the smartest students in the whole school. 
She's bound to impress him.

4. She's a *girl* and one of his 2 best friends, and I suppose Ron 
might have a problem reconciling those 2 facts. It might sound 
stupid and old-fashioned, but many kids still think that when a boy 
and a girl get emotionally close, that means they will get 
romantically involved.

5. She's talking to him like he's normal. How many other girls do 
that ?

Etc, etc... Many reasons for him to develop a crush on her.

Del




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Wed Mar 24 16:08:35 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 16:08:35 -0000
Subject: Mark Evan(esco)
Message-ID: <c3sbq3+nqpa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93846

This is the truth.  I've tried to write this post twice and it 
vanished!  So I changed the name, because vanishing was part of the 
post.

I'm a newby, but I did my homework, honest!  I looked up Mark Evans 
posts as listed recently in a different topic. I'm sure there must 
be even more somewhere.  But something has been nagging at me and I 
was wondering if anyone else was still interested in discussing 
young Mark? 
  
Once I read OoP and begain the series over, marks jumped out at me.  
They are all over the place! The Dark Mark on arms the Death Mark in 
the sky, Harry as being marked and having a mark, marks in classes 
(especially potions where sometimes it's along the line of  "Oops, 
no mark today?" sort of ironic now that I think about it.) There are 
names with variations:  Marcus Flint, Mars the planet (bright 
tonight) and of course Mark Evans.

So he could be the war king (Mark as a form of Mars, Evan as ruler)  
or he could be a vanishing mark [mark as in a blotch and evan as in 
vanishing (evanesco)] 

Will he make the mark go away?  Or will he go away? Which mark will 
vanish? Or will the mark rule?

Potioncat (who had to do some of the definitions by memory since 
someone took my favorite dictionery to school!!)







From nkafkafi at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 24 17:40:52 2004
From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 17:40:52 -0000
Subject: Potions Master Question
In-Reply-To: <20040324110209.B7BCC2A648D@front.interia.pl>
Message-ID: <c3sh74+aj16@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93847

Viridis wrote:
<snip> Dumble himself must be of the top Potions Masters of WW <snip> 
So why he was teaching transfiguration? He is powerful enough to be 
equally good in both fields. But still... 


Neri:
My impression is that transfiguration is considered the most 
distinguished field of magic, sort of like physics in muggle science. 
Transfiguration seems to have a strong theoretical basis. It requires 
a lot of intelligence and learning, but also a lot of power (James's 
wand, which was especially suited transfiguration, was more powerful 
than Lily's wand, which was more suited to Charms). Transfiguration 
also has obvious utility, but mainly for big and impressive stuff, 
not household chores, and is very dangerous when not applied 
correctly. It is probably not a coincidence that the current 
headmaster deputy in Hogwarts is the transfiguration teacher.

Potions, on the other hand, seems to be less a distinguished field 
than Charms and DADA, not to mention Transfiguration. It is important 
because of its obvious utility, but it doesn't have a strong 
theoretical basis, but seems to have its roots in the humble skill of 
cooking. Snape's opening remarks in the first Potions lesson in SS/PS 
(paraphrasing: "no silly wand waving here") sounds like a typical 
inferiority complex, and Snape himself is only the Potions Master 
because he didn't get the DADA job. Being the Transfiguration Master 
for several years is a probably the best qualification for the 
headmaster position, thought perhaps not an obligatory condition. 
Even if DD was the Potion Master for a time, he'd want the promotion 
to the Transfiguration job.

Neri







From vmonte at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 24 17:32:41 2004
From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 17:32:41 -0000
Subject: "You heard James?" (The night Harry's parents were killed!)
In-Reply-To: <c3s1jg+vut7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3sgnp+3c2c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93848



Potioncat wrote:
But when Lily's form comes out of the wand, she says, "Your father 
is coming."  I think Carol is right about Lupin's "You heard James?"

vmonte responds:

What if Lupin was there with James?  What if he was worried that 
Harry heard something else?


vmonte




From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Mar 24 18:18:14 2004
From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 18:18:14 -0000
Subject: So glad to be back!
Message-ID: <c3sjd6+pt85@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93849

My computer shuffled off this mortal coil three weeks ago and I have 
been without my daily fix ever since.  Have just acquired a new 
computer and I can't tell you how good it is to be back.  I've missed 
you all so much, especially Kneasy.
Sylvia (settlingdown to the hopeless task of catching up)




From vmonte at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 24 18:35:44 2004
From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 18:35:44 -0000
Subject: Why does Ron have a crush on Hermione?
In-Reply-To: <c3s6d0+qdqp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3ske0+u6bc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93850

Robert Jones wrote:
Why does Ron have a crush on Hermione?  She's "plain" looking, so 
it's not her looks.  It's not jealousy since Harry hasn't shown 
interest in her (or vice versa).  Her main character traits seem to 
be that she is bookish and bossy ? why would he be attracted to 
that?  She has proven herself to be brave and talented on their 
adventures with Harry ? but is that all?

vmonte responds:
You're kidding right?  If you ask me Hermione is a pretty impressive
witch!  Think of all that she has accomplished in 5 years.  She saved 
Harry and Ron many times alone with her keen intelligence.  She is 
100 times better than Malfoy will ever be, and she has muggle 
parents!  (Why do you think Malfoy hates her so much?!)

She also happens to be pretty -- according to HARRY.  Remember what 
Harry thought of her when he saw her at the ball?!  Keep in mind that 
she no longer has buck teeth, and frizzy hair is an easy fix. 

The real question is: what does Hermione see in Ron?  (Don't get me 
wrong, I like Ron.  In fact, I think Ron is going to grow up and 
become quite formidable in book 6 and 7.)  I think Hermione sees a 
lot in Ron as well.

vmonte




From kcawte at ntlworld.com  Thu Mar 25 02:39:46 2004
From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 18:39:46 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Potions Master Question
References: <20040324110209.B7BCC2A648D@front.interia.pl>
Message-ID: <009f01c41212$71068320$bcde6251@kathryn>

No: HPFGUIDX 93851

Viridis


> A question ? my search didn?t yield any results, so please send me to the
relevant thread if it was previously discussed.
>
> [Dumbledore] is famous for defeating the dark wizard Grindelwald in 1945,
for discovering the twelve uses of dragon's blood, and for his work on
alchemy with his friend Nicolas Flamel. (HP Lexicon quoting Chocolate Frog
Card)
>
> Ergo ? Dumble himself must be of the top Potions Masters of WW.  I find it
hard to believe he was just a clerk for Flamel. We don?t know what he was
doing for better part of his life, so he could easily enjoy *beauty of the
softly simmering cauldron with its shimmering fumes, the delicate power of
liquids that creep through human veins, bewitching the mind, ensnaring the
senses*.
>
> So why he was teaching transfiguration? He is powerful enough to be
equally good in both fields. But still...
>
K

There have been a lot of interesting answers to all of this - none of which
addressed what I thought was the flaw in your logic - Potions making and
alchemy aren't necessarily really the same thing. If the twelve uses of
dragon's blood are alchemical in nature rather than as potions ingredients
then there is no reason why Dumbledore should have any knowledge of potions
at all. He may know something about their uses e.g. it may be that if you
buy Potion X (sine this is hypothetical there's no reason for me to come up
with a sensible name) and drop a lump of lead in it under the light of the
fifth full moon (or whatever) you can change the lead to gold - none of this
would necessitate being able to make the potions themselves. And surely if
he was such an expert he would be making Remus' Wolfsbane potion rather than
delegating the task.

However one of the main aims of alchemists throughout the centuries is to
change base metals into gold - which could well mean that someone skilled at
transfiguration is as likely to become a good alchemist as a 'Potions
Master'. We don't know enough about JKR's version of alchemy to say for
certain - but Flamel is always called an alchemist, not a Potions Master.

I notice Alchemy isn't taught at Hogwarts - not even as an optional subject.

K





From elfundeb at comcast.net  Wed Mar 24 18:50:18 2004
From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb2)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 18:50:18 -0000
Subject: Snape and the Order
In-Reply-To: <c3pccl+4874@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3sl9a+ssio@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93852

Carol:

So
> I think that Snape was working in the utmost secrecy, with only DD
> aware of what he was doing until he was hauled in front of Crouch 
as a
> suspected DE and cleared by Dumbledore's testimony. That was the
> point, I'm guessing, when DD decided to give Snape a teaching 
position
> to keep him safe.

I think Dumbledore's testimony came in a closed, grand jury-type 
hearing, not before the Wizengamot (or Wizard's Council, as it is 
called in GoF), since nobody knows Snape was a DE, while everyone, 
even Ron, seems to know how Lucius Malfoy escaped justice.  If so, 
Dumbledore's testimony would not have put Snape in additional 
danger.  
> 
> Unlike Potioncat, I think he became a teacher before Voldemort's 
fall
> (around September 1 rather than November 1 or so). 

I think canon strongly implies that Snape did not begin teaching at 
Hogwarts until *after* the events at Godric's Hollow.  (In my wilder 
moments, I believe Snape was *at* Godric's Hollow and sounded the 
alarm, though I have no canon support for this.)  In the Shrieking 
Shack, Sirius was very surprised to discover that Snape was at 
Hogwarts, and only at that point did he learn that Snape was a 
teacher.  However, I think that Snape took up residence at Hogwarts 
as a sanctuary immediately afterwards.  

Just to clarify:  do you think Dumbledore testified before Crouch 
*before* Voldemort's fall?  Otherwise it would be inconsistent to say 
that Dumbledore gave Snape the job before Godric's Hollow if he 
didn't decide to do it until after hist testimony.


That's the only way
> I can explain the DEs in Azkaban knowing about Pettigrew when Snape
> apparently didn't. If he was at Hogwarts that Halloween night (and 
the
> week or so before while the Secret Keeper arrangements were being
> made), he wouldn't know that Peter, not Sirius, betrayed the 
Potters.
> He'd be as much in the dark as Dumbledore apparently was.

I doubt very many people knew that Pettigrew was working for the 
DEs.  It would have endangered Pettigrew's role to spy on the Order 
if more people knew than were absolutely necessary.  After 
Voldemort's disappearance, however, any intelligence the DEs had that 
Pettigrew had ratted on his friends in order to be on the winning 
side would be very important to know because it would establish his 
lack of trustworthiness in future operations.  These concerns would 
have been justified, IMO, as Pettigrew only went back to Voldemort 
when he was out of other options.

Also, Rookwood (I think it was he) testified in the Pensieve that the 
identity of DEs was not generally known to other DEs.  Thus, assuming 
that the DEs operated on a kind of "cell" system, Snape may simply 
have been in a different cell than the DEs in Azkaban.  Even before 
Sirius' "lapdog" remark, I pictured him as reporting to Lucius 
Malfoy, and that Snape's task at the end of GoF related to Malfoy, 
not Voldemort.

Potioncat:
> I've seen a very good post that suggests Snape actually 
> came to DD witin days (or even hours) of the attack on the Potters.

I think it more likely that Snape came to Dumbledore a couple of 
weeks before the attacks. We learn in PoA (don't have the book handy 
or I'd quote) that the charm was put in place because one of 
Dumbledore's spies tipped him off that Voldemort was after the 
Potters, and that the attack occurred approximately one week after 
the charm was performed.  

Also, in light of all the canon developing the backstory relationship 
between Snape and the Potters, I would be very surprised if 
Dumbledore learned that Voldemort had targetted the Potters from 
anyone other than Snape.  (This may be how Dumbledore found out that 
Voldemort had learned of the prophecy; Dumbledore quizzes Snape on 
the contents of the prophecy to test his veracity and thereby learns 
that Voldemort's knowledge is incomplete.)   

It also seems very plausible that Snape's learning that the Potters 
had been targeted for elimination was the catalyst that set in motion 
his changing sides, another piece of circumstantial evidence pointing 
to his joining Dumbledore within a couple weeks of the attack.  I 
think that he had been disaffected with the DEs long before he 
approached Dumbledore.  Snape is a very controlled person who does 
not act randomly (irrationally, perhaps, but always with a purpose, 
whether it's tormenting Harry and Neville in potions classes, 
favoring the Slytherins, etc.)  

I can't imagine that he would have approved of the DEs' taste for 
purposeless Muggle killings, or of the kind of obsequiousness the DEs 
were required to show toward Voldemort, and, probably, toward their 
DE superiors. Continuing that relationship is a role that Snape must 
play as a spy.  I think he's been playing that role for the last 14 
years, and that Snape's treatment of the Slytherins vs. his treatment 
of Harry is a big part of that.   However, it must be very 
distasteful for him to continue a role he rejected when he left the 
DEs.  Therefore, Sirius' taunt that Snape was Lucius' lapdog must 
have seemed particularly cruel to him, because it was both painful 
and, at least at one level, true.  To take up a point that Eloise 
made on another thread, though, I have no doubt, however, that Snape 
views Lucius as the lapdog.

Debbie
who is sorry to have rambled on so, but posts on Snape so rarely that 
it seemed important to cram it all into one post




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Mar 24 17:34:28 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 17:34:28 -0000
Subject: sirius as animagus - why didn't the deatheaters know pre OOP?
In-Reply-To: <c3qsfe+n486@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3sgr4+h6ne@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93853

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "laura_clapham2002" 
<laura_clapham2002 at y...> wrote:
> During my umpteenth rereading of OOP, the following struck 
me...
> 
> In Voldy War 1 we know that Wormtail was passing information 
to Voldy 
> for a year before his fall.  Yet it is implied in OOP that the
death 
> eaters did not know this until after Voldy's resurrection - ie 
Lucius  Malfoy recognising Sirius at Platform 9 3/4 in OOP.  Why 
wouldn't  they have known this before (and therefore made it 
known during  POA)?  Wouldn't Peter have been passing this 
kind of info about the members of the Order? IF not why not?  
What does this say about Peter? Or on the other hand, what 
does it say about the death eaters  capacity to be efficient, if 
Voldy does not pass on this kind of  information?<

I believe Voldemort knew, but kept it to himself. It's the catch-22 
of espionage: you can't use any information that would point too 
directly at its source. The story that in  WWII the British allowed  
theGerman bombers to reach Coventry because scrambling 
fighters too soon would have revealed that the Brits had cracked 
the Enigma code is untrue, but illustrates the point.

 Since only Peter, Sirius, Lupin and James knew about the 
Animagi,  using the information  would have revealed that one of 
them was the spy.  

In addtition, Voldemort is probably cautious about giving his 
Death Eaters information they can use against each other. 
There's such a thing as in-service rivalries.

Pippin




From kcawte at ntlworld.com  Thu Mar 25 03:12:46 2004
From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 19:12:46 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why does Ron have a crush on Hermione?
References: <c3ske0+u6bc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00b001c41217$0c4b3660$bcde6251@kathryn>

No: HPFGUIDX 93854




Robert Jones wrote:
Why does Ron have a crush on Hermione?  She's "plain" looking, so
it's not her looks.  It's not jealousy since Harry hasn't shown
interest in her (or vice versa).  Her main character traits seem to
be that she is bookish and bossy - why would he be attracted to
that?  She has proven herself to be brave and talented on their
adventures with Harry - but is that all?

K

Well there's just no hope for most of us girls out there on this logic is
there? I'm not supermodel material so unless the best friend of a guy I
likes appears interested thus causing the guy to feel jealous I'm just never
going to get a date!

I would presume all the same qualities that lead him to be best friends with
Hermione - including her brains, talent and courage - also lead him to be
attracted to her. Now I realise that it is possible for a guy to be friends
with a girl without being romantically attracted to her but unless he's
looking for some kind of one night stand he's going to be looking for a lot
of the same qualities in a girlfriend as he does in a friend. Not that I
suspect any of this is being consciously considered, and not just because
he's a teenager, but because there aren't many people who could accurately
describe *why* they 'like' one particular person and not another.

vmonte responded to Robert:
You're kidding right?  If you ask me Hermione is a pretty impressive
witch!  Think of all that she has accomplished in 5 years.  She saved
Harry and Ron many times alone with her keen intelligence.  She is
100 times better than Malfoy will ever be, and she has muggle
parents!  (Why do you think Malfoy hates her so much?!)

K

Well I think you're being a little harsh on the Malfoy brat there (please no
one take this as much of a defence of him, I can't stand him - although he's
a little 2d to actually hate). Malfoy comes second academically to Hermione
and *only* to Hermione from what we know. If that makes her 100 times better
than him then the rest of their year better start looking for janitorial
positions because they're all doomed! I will agree that as a person she's
100 times better than Malfoy - but not as a witch.

K





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Wed Mar 24 19:23:10 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 19:23:10 -0000
Subject: "You heard James?" (The night Harry's parents were killed!)
In-Reply-To: <c3sgnp+3c2c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3sn6u+3jc6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93855


> vmonte responds:
> 
> What if Lupin was there with James?  What if he was worried that 
> Harry heard something else?
> 

Potioncat:
You mean, like: "Remus! You traitor!"





From SuzChiles at pobox.com  Wed Mar 24 18:20:08 2004
From: SuzChiles at pobox.com (Suzanne Chiles)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 10:20:08 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Potions Master Question
In-Reply-To: <c3sh74+aj16@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <PAEKIBGMHHNDNHEGDBMMCEFNCNAA.suzchiles@pobox.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93856

Neri said:

> Potions, on the other hand, seems to be less a distinguished field
> than Charms and DADA, not to mention Transfiguration. It is important
> because of its obvious utility, but it doesn't have a strong
> theoretical basis, but seems to have its roots in the humble skill of
> cooking.

Cooking? I'd say it's more like chemistry, myself, which I consider a highly
distinguished field.

Suzanne




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Wed Mar 24 19:34:22 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 19:34:22 -0000
Subject: Potions Master Question
In-Reply-To: <009f01c41212$71068320$bcde6251@kathryn>
Message-ID: <c3snru+n8q8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93857


> Viridis wrote:
> > [Dumbledore] is famous for defeating the dark wizard Grindelwald 
in 1945,
> for discovering the twelve uses of dragon's blood, and for his 
work on
> alchemy with his friend Nicolas Flamel. (HP Lexicon quoting 
Chocolate Frog
> Card)
> >
> > Ergo ? Dumble himself must be of the top Potions Masters of 
WW.   So why he was teaching transfiguration? He is powerful enough 
to be
> equally good in both fields. But still...


K responded: 
> There have been a lot of interesting answers to all of this - none 
of which
> addressed what I thought was the flaw in your logic - Potions 
making and
> alchemy aren't necessarily really the same thing. If the twelve 
uses of
> dragon's blood are alchemical in nature rather than as potions 
ingredients
> then there is no reason why Dumbledore should have any knowledge 
of potions
> at all. 


Potincat:
But we aren't told that the 12 uses of dragon's blood are alchemy. 
We're told he's famous for 3 different events. He defeated 
Grindlewald. He discovered twelve uses for the blood. He worked in 
alchemy.

DD is one of the most powerful wizards of the age, so it follows he 
would be outstanding in different areas of magic.
Potioncat




From manawydan at ntlworld.com  Wed Mar 24 19:40:45 2004
From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 19:40:45 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape, trying very hard not to smile? Or is he just allergic to cats?
References: <1080077609.13787.22465.m10@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <000901c411d7$e7263c20$d8e76151@f3b7j4>

No: HPFGUIDX 93858

(snipped a great deal of discussion between Eloise and Potioncat to leave)

>>Dumbledore was giving Harry a searching look. His twinkling light-
>>blue gaze made Harry feel as though he were being X-rayed.
>>
>>"Innocent until proven guilty, Severus," he said firmly.

That's a comment I'd missed before. In the WW context, it seems very
unusual. Where we've had reference to the legal system, it seems that it's
almost the opposite that's the case: if you're charged, then your innocence
certainly _isn't_ assumed. You might get banged up without a trial (Sirius),
get off because you've got a nice smile (Bagman), or even with some support
and semblance of due process (Harry), face a hostile and biased bench.

But an assumption of innocence? No wonder Snape looks furious!

Cheers

Ffred

O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon
Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion
Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Wed Mar 24 19:47:06 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 19:47:06 -0000
Subject: Potions Master Question
In-Reply-To: <c3sh74+aj16@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3sojq+9gmb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93859


 
> Neri:
> My impression is that transfiguration is considered the most 
> distinguished field of magic, sort of like physics in muggle 
science. 
> Transfiguration seems to have a strong theoretical basis. It 
requires 
> a lot of intelligence and learning, but also a lot of power 
(James's 
> wand, which was especially suited transfiguration, was more 
powerful 
> than Lily's wand, which was more suited to Charms).
 
snip<.
> 
> Potions, on the other hand, seems to be less a distinguished field 
> than Charms and DADA, not to mention Transfiguration. It is 
important 
> because of its obvious utility, but it doesn't have a strong 
> theoretical basis, but seems to have its roots in the humble skill 
of 
> cooking. Snape's opening remarks in the first Potions lesson in 
SS/PS 
> (paraphrasing: "no silly wand waving here") sounds like a typical 
> inferiority complex, and Snape himself is only the Potions Master 
> because he didn't get the DADA job.
>snip< 



Potioncat:
I realize you say it your impression, but I'm not sure where you got 
that impression.  It seems to me that the core classes are all 
important.  In fact, if anything, DADA can't be too important 
because DD makes no real effort to put a qualified teacher there.  
While he has a potionmaster with a strong reputation in Potions.  

I would compare potions to chemistry (which is very similar to 
cooking.) But I do not see Transfigurations as superior.  In fact, 
most of the magic we've seen so far is a type of charms.

Do you have canon for James' wand being more powerful than Lily's?  
And if so, was it the transfiguration abiltiy that made it more 
powerful or was James a more more wizard?
Potioncat 




From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu  Wed Mar 24 19:48:54 2004
From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 19:48:54 -0000
Subject: Why does Ron have a crush on Hermione?
In-Reply-To: <c3s6d0+qdqp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3son6+bf5c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93860

 "Robert Jones" <jones.r.h.j at w...> asked:
> Why does Ron have a crush on Hermione?  

--------------
I have kind of always seen it as how he copes with 
categorizing "girls".  This 'crush', to me, began in GoF and the Yule 
Ball thing.  In fact, I pinpoint the turning point to Ron's attitude 
towards Hermione at the "You're a girl" statement.  This was a candid 
moment in my eyes where we see Ron really and truly for the first 
time realize that his pal Hermione doesn't just go up a different 
staircase to sleep but is actually also one of those creatures he 
groups as 'girls'.  

Previously in Ron's life, the females have been his Mom and his 
sister--two very different and distinct categories of the female 
population.  To 11, 12, 13 year olds--girls and boys aren't all that 
different if they do the same things/hang out together.  Hermione was 
just his friend who wore the skirt and slept in a different dorm.  
Hermione, we can see, is actually quite different than most every 
other girl we ever see.  (Lav and Pav are giggly and love Divination, 
there're supposedly two other girls in their dorm but, well, they're 
apparently recluses and very very shy--Hermione's like none of these 
to the eyes of Harry and Ron, I'd say).  Therefore, prior to Ron's 
revelation of "Hermione-you're a girl!", Hermione had just be 
categorized as 'a friend'.  

When Hermione made the transition from 'a friend' to 'a girl', Ron 
had to reprogram his brain.  She then became 'a girl friend'.  Close 
friends of the opposite sex, seem to me, to usually present at least 
a little question of where the line is drawn.  (For example, both Cho 
and Viktor, when dating Harry and Hermione respectively, had some 
jealous tendencies and general wariness towards Harry and Hermione's 
close friendship.  It may not have meant anything, but others saw a 
closeness that they felt might be indicative of crossing the line of 
friend/more-than-friend.)  So, I think for many people (just the 
general average response--not all), they believe perhaps that a close 
relationship with a member of the opposite sex equals or translates 
to a girlfriend/boyfriend thing. (Of course it's not always true, but 
come on, anyone dating one of the trio who is not part of the trio 
will have whoever they are dating sharing a close friendship with a 
member of the opposite sex--no every person can deal with this accept 
their sig other to friends like this.)

Now, I do not think any of this is conscious in Ron's mind and that 
includes the fact (at least as I see it, uit's a fact) that he likes 
Hermione.  I think he sees Hermione as *his* though; like a boyfriend 
would see a girlfriend as theirs and not someone else's girl.  I 
think it's perhaps just as possible (but not nearly as a good a story 
or as exciting) that if Hermione actually like Harry and got with 
him, that Ron would be supportive of that because at least he can 
concede that Hermione is as much Harry's as she is Ron's (yes, yes, 
no one owns anyone, but you know what I mean, don't you?)  I also 
think Harry would be the only person in Ron's eyes to be worthy of 
Hermione in ron's eyes (if ron didn't really decided he wanted/needed 
her for himself).  I do think Ron puts Hermione up on a pedestal of 
sorts (and part of his bickering and trying to make her stop studying 
so much, stop the SPEW thing, etc is meant to make her not quite so 
high up that she's unattainable at least to him in his eyes.  

Yikes, this was a long post.  Hopefully, I have not offended the Ron-
o-philes.  
Arya




From mongo62aa at yahoo.ca  Wed Mar 24 19:00:00 2004
From: mongo62aa at yahoo.ca (mongo62aa)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 19:00:00 -0000
Subject: Halfbloods in Slytherin?  Photo section list of students
In-Reply-To: <c3qqrv+7fh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3slrg+ce8c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93861

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Julie" <inky_quill at h...> 
wrote:
>  {Majorly snipped) Pippin and Annemehr were discussing the photo 
> section file "Harry Potter" with slides of a book with a list of 
> students.<<<<<< [Pippin said]proceed ahead to pics #14 and #15, 
> looking at the list of students, look at the symbols in the middle 
> column, which seem to stand for muggle/wizard origins.  >>>>>>>
> 
> Never looked in that file until your comments refered to it.  What 
is 
> this book and any idea what the first column of circles and filled 
in 
> squares refers to?  
> 
> Inky/Julie

circles = girls
filled in squares = boys

Bill




From przepla at ipartner.com.pl  Wed Mar 24 20:29:41 2004
From: przepla at ipartner.com.pl (Przemyslaw Plaskowicki)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 21:29:41 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why does Ron have a crush on Hermione? [Ship]
In-Reply-To: <00b001c41217$0c4b3660$bcde6251@kathryn>
References: <c3ske0+u6bc@eGroups.com> <00b001c41217$0c4b3660$bcde6251@kathryn>
Message-ID: <4061EFB5.3010609@ipartner.com.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 93862

On 25/03/2004 04:12, Kathryn Cawte wrote :
> 
> I would presume all the same qualities that lead him to be best friends with
> Hermione - including her brains, talent and courage - also lead him to be
> attracted to her. Now I realise that it is possible for a guy to be friends
> with a girl without being romantically attracted to her but unless he's
> looking for some kind of one night stand he's going to be looking for a lot
> of the same qualities in a girlfriend as he does in a friend. Not that I
> suspect any of this is being consciously considered, and not just because
> he's a teenager, but because there aren't many people who could accurately
> describe *why* they 'like' one particular person and not another.
>

Slightly off topic here (so if necessary respond to it on OT-list), but 
I just could not help but quoting 18th/19th century French philosopher 
Joseph Joubert: "Do not choose for your wife any woman you would not 
choose as your friend if she were a man." I am glad that at least one of 
our heroes chosen that way *cough*Cho*cough.



-- 
Przemyslaw 'Pshemekan' Plaskowicki
Men are wise in proportion, not to their experience, but to their 
capacity for experience. (James Boswell, Life of Samuel Johnson, 1791)



From gbannister10 at aol.com  Wed Mar 24 21:18:44 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 21:18:44 -0000
Subject: Potions Master Question
In-Reply-To: <c3sojq+9gmb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3stvk+pp9d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93863

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at m...> 
wrote:

Potioncat:
> Do you have canon for James' wand being more powerful than Lily's?  
> And if so, was it the transfiguration abiltiy that made it more 
> powerful or was James a more more wizard?

Geoff:
"'Ah yes,' said the man. 'Yes, yes. I thought I'd be seeing you soon, 
Harry Potter.' It wasn't a question. 'You have your mother's eyes. It 
seems only yesterday she was in here herself, buying her first wand. 
Ten and a quarter inches long, swishy, made of willow. Nice wand for 
charm work.'
Mr.Ollivander moved nearer to Harry. Harry wished he would blink. 
Those silvery eyes were a bit creepy.
'Your father, on the other hand, favoured a mahogany wand. Eleven 
inches. Pliable. A little more power and excellent for 
transfiguration.....'"

"PS "Diagon Alley" p.63 UK edition)

Answer seems to be Yes and Yes.




From nkafkafi at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 24 21:30:20 2004
From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 21:30:20 -0000
Subject: Potions Master Question
In-Reply-To: <c3sojq+9gmb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3sulc+eg9q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93864


> Potioncat:
> I realize you say it your impression, but I'm not sure where you 
got 
> that impression.  It seems to me that the core classes are all 
> important.  In fact, if anything, DADA can't be too important 
> because DD makes no real effort to put a qualified teacher there.  
> While he has a potionmaster with a strong reputation in Potions.  
> 
> I would compare potions to chemistry (which is very similar to 
> cooking.) But I do not see Transfigurations as superior.  In fact, 
> most of the magic we've seen so far is a type of charms.
> 
> Do you have canon for James' wand being more powerful than Lily's?  
> And if so, was it the transfiguration abiltiy that made it more 
> powerful or was James a more more wizard?


Neri:
Sorry Potioncat, I don't have the books with me right now, so I can't 
give specific canon. Having experience in science and the academy, 
however, I know that many fields are considered (frequently 
superficially and without any justification) less important than 
others. It is usually just a question of public image, but if you ask 
the average person in the street to name famous scientists in 
physics, he'll probably know the names of Galileo, Newton and 
Einstein. If you ask this person to name famous scientists in 
chemistry, he might have to think for a moment. It is more a question 
of image and public relations than true importance, but unfortunately 
it does work to give people in the more "important" fields more 
influence and reputation. There seems to be a similar phenomenon in 
the WW too.

IMO the core subjects are not equally important, at least not in 
reputation. History of Magic, for example, is clearly less important 
than the rest, or being dead would have been enough of an excuse to 
get rid of a terrible teacher such as Prof. Binns. I also agree with 
Kathryn (#93854) that traditionally there hadn't been much of a 
connection between Alchemy and Potions. Alchemy seems to be 
traditionally connected with famous scholastics such as Flamel and 
Faust (BTW also Leonardo daVinci and Newton), while Potions seems to 
be traditionally connected with the image of the old country witch 
stirring her cauldron (as in Macbeth). Also note that the Potions 
class is down there in the cold dungeons, instead of a roomy class in 
the third floor with a nice view to the grounds.

I agree these are all small inconclusive details, but together they 
are enough to create my impression. Snape seems to share this 
impression, or he wouldn't have been so keen to dump the Potions job 
and becoming the DADA teacher. DD refuses him for some important 
reason that we are yet to discover, but certainly not because he 
thinks DADA is less important than Potions (especially at these 
troubled times). If DADA were not important, you can be sure that 
Umbridge would have found a better position for herself.

Neri





From gbannister10 at aol.com  Wed Mar 24 21:51:03 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 21:51:03 -0000
Subject: Dating (Re: Horse Feathers)
In-Reply-To: <20040324094330.BA63230E511@front.interia.pl>
Message-ID: <c3svs7+u4g7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93865

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, bufo_viridis at i... wrote:
> Geoff:
> > Another point. I looked up Flamel on the web and it is suggested 
that 
> > he was born in 1330. If so, then extrapolating forward with the 
entry 
> > in the "enormous old book" would give us 1996. (1330 + 665 +1). 
But 
> > since the action is taking place in 1992, there is a slight 
> > discrepancy.
> > 
> > Even so, it lends credence to the idea that the library books are 
> > self-updating (or that JKR found a different date).

Viridis:
> The dating of HP books is always a problem. Is the Flamel's birtday 
really sure? Because if was born ca. 1330, than everything is fine 
(1296 is still *circa* 1330). 

Geoff:
I don't quite see why 1296 comes into the equation.....

I had another browse and from various sources got birth years of:

1330, around 1330, in the early fourteenth century and in the 16th 
century(!!).

Looking at your date of 1296 (which still puzzles me), that would 
date the book's publication as 1962. OK, so it isn't self-updating. 
But then, why is it described as an enormous /old/ book? A 
description likethat makes me visualise one of these leather bound 
huge volumes dating from the 19th century......




From technomad at intergate.com  Wed Mar 24 21:04:18 2004
From: technomad at intergate.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 15:04:18 -0600
Subject: "Hermione---you're a girl..."
Message-ID: <00be01c411e3$981248c0$16570043@intergate.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93866

I think that Ron's statement to Hermione about "you're a girl" was partly
based in the idea that she wouldn't be interested in the Yule Ball.

She doesn't seem to do "girly" things, and appears, from what text-evidence
we have, to regard her roomies who do (Parvati and Lavender) with a certain
amount of contempt.

To a boy Ron's age at this time, a Yule Ball _would_ be a "girly" thing, and
he might have thought Hermione wouldn't normally want to go---but would if
he asked, as a favor to her friend.  He was wrong, but from his POV it would
seem like a reasonable assumption.

Most teenage boys don't get interested in dances and such until they're a
year or two older than Ron is at this time, from what I can remember of how
it was when I was that age.  (This was when dinosaurs walked the earth.)
Before that, dancing, and dances, are considered "cissy" and "girly" things
to do.  Girls of that age, however, usually _are_ interested in dating,
balls and the like---girls do mature in this area faster than boys do.

I daresay that without Harry _having to go,_ Ron wouldn't have even
considered going to the Ball.






From pt4ever at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 24 22:28:00 2004
From: pt4ever at yahoo.com (JoAnna)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 22:28:00 -0000
Subject: Dating (Re: Horse Feathers)
In-Reply-To: <c3svs7+u4g7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3t21g+6131@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93867

Geoff said:

<<<Looking at your date of 1296 (which still puzzles me), that would
date the book's publication as 1962. OK, so it isn't self-updating.
But then, why is it described as an enormous /old/ book? A
description likethat makes me visualise one of these leather bound
huge volumes dating from the 19th century......>>>

JoAnna:

But remember that the book is being looked at from the perspective 
of a twelve-year-old boy.  To a twelve-year-old boy, an adult over 
the age of 30 is old.  :)

I wouldn't be surprised if Ollivander was a *relative* of Flamel, 
but I doubt the two are one and the same for the reasons I've given 
before, and also given Dumbledore's reaction when Harry asks him 
about Flamel in PS/SS (again, I don't have the book handy, so this 
is from memory, but it's from the chapter "The Man With Two Faces"):

"But your friend... Nicholas Flamel..." [said Harry].

"Oh, you know about Nicholas?"  Dumbledore said, looking 
delighted.  "You *did* do the thing properly, didn't you?"

It seems that if Flamel was Ollivander, Dumbledore, rather than 
being delighted, would first want to know if *Harry* knew who Flamel 
really was - i.e., just how much Harry & co. had found out about 
Flamel.

- JoAnna, who is firmly convinced that Flamel and Ollivander are two 
different people, and wonders why this even matters to her in the 
first place :)




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Wed Mar 24 22:35:11 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 22:35:11 -0000
Subject: Potions Master Question
In-Reply-To: <c3sulc+eg9q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3t2ev+sfdq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93868

 Potionat, snipping willy nilly)
> Neri:
> Sorry Potioncat, I don't have the books with me right now, so I 
can't 
> give specific canon. Having experience in science and the academy, 
> however, I know that many fields are considered (frequently 
> superficially and without any justification) less important than 
> others.

Potioncat: 
Neri, I hope I didn't come off as irate.  I'm sorry if I did. This is 
all in fun,mostly I was surprised.   Another post came up with the 
wand canon, although I'm not sure we're all reading it the same way.
(what else is new with this group?)

BTW I also have a science backgroud too, but in the medical 
field...there's something more important than Chemistry?  (with 
laughter in voice)


Neri: 
> IMO the core subjects are not equally important, at least not in 
> reputation. History of Magic, for example, is clearly less 
important 
> than the rest, or being dead would have been enough of an excuse to 
> get rid of a terrible teacher such as Prof. Binns.


Potioncat: 
Oh, well, I didn't mean a silly little course like history!  No, 
actually I forgot that one which sort of disproves my statement about 
them all being equal.

Neri:
Also note that the Potions class is down there in the cold dungeons, 
instead of a roomy class in the third floor with a nice view to the 
grounds.

Potioncat: 
But that is to accomodate the vampire who teaches it.
 

Neri:
> I agree these are all small inconclusive details, but together they 
> are enough to create my impression. Snape seems to share this 
> impression, or he wouldn't have been so keen to dump the Potions 
job 
> and becoming the DADA teacher. DD refuses him for some important 
> reason that we are yet to discover, but certainly not because he 
> thinks DADA is less important than Potions (especially at these 
> troubled times). If DADA were not important, you can be sure that 
> Umbridge would have found a better position for herself.

Potioncat:
I really think potions, charms, and transfigurations are equally 
important magic skills.  Certainly individuals would have different 
levels of talents within them. I'm not sure what DADA really is, it 
seems like a specialized charms class to me.

Yes, Snape makes the statement, no silly wand waving, no foolish 
incantations, some of you won't realize this is magic (paraphrased), 
but it is magic. And as we see in classes it isn't easy.

Anyway, this is a lot of typing to answer a quesion on why DD was 
teaching transfigurations!  When the real reason is "Because JKR said 
so."

Potioncat (no, I do not really think he's a vampire)




From belijako at online.no  Wed Mar 24 23:29:19 2004
From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 23:29:19 -0000
Subject: Why does Ron have a crush on Hermione?
In-Reply-To: <c3son6+bf5c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3t5kf+b0f3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93869

Arya wrote:
I also think Harry would be the only person in Ron's eyes to be 
worthy of Hermione (if Ron didn't really decide he wanted/needed her 
for himself).

Berit replies:

Ron clearly thinks Harry is the only person worthy of, not Hermione, 
but a certain brown-eyed, red-haired girl... :-)

Quote: (After Ginny told Ron she ditched Michael Corner:)
"Ron looked highly delighted. 'Well, I always thought he was a bit of 
an idiot,' he said, prodding his queen forwards towards Harry's 
quivering castle. 'Good for you. Just choose someone - better - next 
time.'
He cast Harry an oddly furtive look as he said it.
'Well, I've chosen Dean Thomas, would you say he's better?' asked 
Ginny vaguely.
'WHAT?' shouted Ron, upending the chessboard..." (OotP p. 763 UK Ed)

Berit
http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html




From Zarleycat at aol.com  Wed Mar 24 23:43:33 2004
From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 23:43:33 -0000
Subject: sirius as animagus - why didn't the deatheaters know pre OOP?
In-Reply-To: <c3s0uu+m1lt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3t6f5+lud7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93870

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at m...> 
wrote:

> --James, Sirius, and Peter didn't let the Order know about being 
> animagi either.

Marianne:
Which I think is a point with as much interest as when the DEs 
finally found out.  What seems odd is that since the original Order 
was very out-gunned, it would seem to me that letting Dumbledore know 
of an additional power that three of the Order's members had - being 
Animagi - could have aided the Order in their fight.  I doubt that, 
had Dumbledore known, that he would have insisted the three be good, 
upstanding citizens and rush right down to the Ministry and 
register.  Rather, I think Dumbledore wouldn't have thought twice 
about telling J,P, and S to not tell anyone else, and to put their 
abilities to use.  Okay, maybe Stag!James would have been a bit 
obvious trotting around the middle of town, but a stray dog or a 
scurrying rat - now those were disguises that would allow two Order 
members to travel fairly unnoticed.

So, why wasn't Dumbledore told?

Marianne




From jrc241 at psu.edu  Wed Mar 24 23:44:28 2004
From: jrc241 at psu.edu (pennstgrle)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 23:44:28 -0000
Subject: Way for LV to die
In-Reply-To: <c3r2ua+dem9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3t6gs+kqp6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93871

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "peliroja1118" 
<magarama11 at a...> wrote:

"I have no clue if someone has ever posted something similar, but 
one way for LV to die would be by Harry possessing him, and doing 
the job from the inside out (reverse of book 5). The dueling wands 
won't work, and JKR laid the foundations for this to happen in OotP 
when she showed its possibility. Harry can kill LV by making him 
feel all the hurt he's caused...by filling him with love and regret 
and all the emotions he seems to lack. I see two possible results if 
this were to occur. One is that Harry will be sacrificing himself, 
and as a result, die. But maybe what Harry has in such abundance 
(love/heart) is greater than LV's powers and so he willl emerge 
unharmed, and give a truly happy ending to the series. In the end, 
Harry's defining characteristics will have to be what triumphs over 
LV: this has been hinted at in book 2 (the love in his veins from 
his mother proved deadly then) and in book five when LV couldn't 
bear to be in Harry's body bc of theses feelings. Those feelings 
saved Harry's life that night. Dumbledore also alluded to the 
tremendous power of heart/love in his talk with Harry in book 5. I 
think these clues cannot be overlooked. Remember, these have turned 
into moral tales. However, it remains to be seen if my theory is the 
way the love conquers over malice, spite and evil."


Jaimee:

Just wanted to say that I love this idea, even if someone might have 
suggested it before (can't remember if I read it somewhere or 
thought of something along these lines during one of my musings on 
how the series might end). Either way, I have faith that JK will 
pull off something beautiful and moving like this--Harry using his 
connection with Voldemort to make LV feel remorse for all that he's 
done. 

I do remember reading in earlier posts speculation that Harry might, 
after it's all over, walk through the veil to end all the pain he 
has endured (kind or like Frodo getting on the ship and sailing to 
the West in LOTR). This suggestion received quite a bit of backlash 
because it sounds as though Harry commits suicide.

But I wonder if Harry, through making LV feel the pain he has 
caused, could make *Voldemort* choose to walk through the veil--
finally realizing that there are some things worse than death...or 
someting to that effect. I guess I come to a conclusion like this 
because, as much as I would love to believe that someone of such 
evil can be redeemed, I can't invision a totally reformed Tom Riddle 
emerging from the ashes of battle. But I think it would be...what's 
the word I want to use? paradoxical? hypocritical?...if Harry would 
defeat LV by using the Unforgivables. But it would be a rather 
apposite way, in my oppinion, for Voldemort to die, since one of his 
greatest ambitions was to be immortal.

But, the idea of LV walking through the veil scares me too. Because, 
if Harry is "possessing" LV while he walks through the veil, would 
this mean that we would lose Harry as well, since his soul would be 
passing into the other world with Voldemort's body? 

Oh, I can't bare to think about it anymore! The end of this series 
frightens me! I don't know if I can handle it! 

But I thought I'd make this suggestion anyway.

Best always,

Jaimee




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 25 00:15:33 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 00:15:33 -0000
Subject: Lily's death
Message-ID: <c3t8b6+lpl9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93872

This message bounced for some reason (it timed out??), so I'm
reposting it. Sorry it's no longer part of the thread!

<justcarol67 at y...> wrote:
> I don't think Voldemort's intentions matter. Certainly 
    *if he had killed Harry [first] and then killed Lily, her death 
     would not have been a sacrifice*, 
regardless of his intentions. 
    *It would only have been a second murder.* 
But IMO it's Lily's intentions that matter. 
     *It's her death that saves her son and her deliberate giving
     of her life that makes her death a sacrifice.*
> 

greatelderone:
> I diagree here. A sacrifice entails that you give up something 
> inexchange for something of greater, equal or less value . Her 
> getting scrapped next by Voldemort wouldn't have qualified her act
as a sacrifice. 
> 
Carol:
Yes. That's what I said, too. She gave up her life for Harry's, so she
*is* giving up something of equal value, and "getting scrapped next"
would *not* have been sacrifice but murder.

Note the sentences marked by italics in my original post. Lily's death
*before* Harry's is a sacrifice which saves his life (because of the
"ancient magic," which I'll get to in a minute). Her death *after* his
would have been merely a second murder because *he would also have
died.* Also, Lily *chose* to die. ("Kill me! Not Harry! Kill me
instead!") I'm saying that *she had to die first to save him.* Maybe
my original wording was unclear, but I don't see any disagreement
here. As far as I can see, you're just repeating my point in different
words.

greatelderone:
> Besides if we take this to the logical conclusion and assume that 
> most mothers are as willing to die for their children, that AV is 
> used frequently for murders and that wizard wars like what Voldemort 
> waged were like every 50 year events then wouldn't it be common 
> enough for Voldemort to have kept this charm in mind?

Carol:
Again, I don't think you quite understand me. The self-sacrifice is
necessary to *activate* the charm (or "ancient magic"), but it isn't
the charm (or "ancient magic") itself. I completely agree that if all
that was involved was for the mother to die before the child (or a
husband before a wife, or whatever), a lot more lives would have been
saved and Avada Kedavra would not be such a dreaded spell. (That's
what you mean by AV, right?) But, IMO, not many witches or wizards are
familiar with the "ancient magic" that Lily used, which involved
something *beyond* the self-sacrifice.

That's why I think that Lily put a protective charm or spell on Harry
before LV arrived on the scene, knowing that she had to die to save
his life. She couldn't have stepped aside even if she had wanted to
because she had to be killed to activate the spell (or whatever the
"ancient magic" was) that saved his life. Had she not died first, the
Avada Kedavra would have killed Harry and her own death would have
been pointless--a second murder, as I said before.

So, as far as I can tell, we agree that

1) she had to die first for her death to be a sacrifice 
   and
2) self-sacrifice alone was not enough to save Harry.

In other words, there's more to the "ancient magic" LV refers to than
JUST self-sacrifice.

You may not agree about the protective charm, but I think we do agree
otherwise.

Carol, who is only trying to clear up points of misunderstanding in
this post, not present arguments for the protective charm, which is a
slightly different topic




From jdr0918 at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 25 00:32:24 2004
From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 00:32:24 -0000
Subject: Why does Ron have a crush on Hermione?
In-Reply-To: <c3s6d0+qdqp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3t9ao+t835@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93873

<<<In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Robert Jones" wrote: Why does 
Ron have a crush on Hermione?  She's "plain" looking, so it's not her 
looks... I'm not saying that no boy could be interested in her (Krum 
is), but why is Ron?  Given what we know about his personality and 
his family life, I just don't see why a boy like Ron would be 
attracted to a girl like her.  Could someone please explain it?>>>

The Sergeant Majorette says

Ron does not have a "crush" on Hermione, and I believe that's the 
whole point. A "crush" is the kind of purely hormonal reaction an 
adolescent male has to a girl like Fleur or any conventionally pretty 
female. We're meant to see Ron's friendship with Hermione evolve into 
something more grown-up, and we, along with Harry, Hermione and 
everybody else in the world, see it long before Ron himself does.

Remember the non-hug at the end of the CoS movie? That was deliberate 
foreshadowing of the unresolved sexual tension between Ron/Hermione 
that JKR knew we'd be seeing in the future.

Really, neither Ron nor Hermione are "crushable". But each is the 
kind of person the other kind of person grows up to marry.

--JDR (who thinks that Luna is to Hermione as Viktor is to Ron: a 
wake-up call...)




From averyhaze at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 24 19:03:08 2004
From: averyhaze at hotmail.com (onnanokata)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 19:03:08 -0000
Subject: The power LV knows not
In-Reply-To: <c3s8bm+hvgn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3sm1c+10djn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93874

Del Wrote:
 
Tom Riddle was a half-blood raised in a Muggle orphanage, who ended 
up in Slytherin.
 
Is it possible that he never received any love from anyone ?
 
That would explain why Harry has a power that LV doesn't know : not 
because Harry has exceptionally a lot of love, but simply because LV 
never received any.
 
Am I completely crazy, or is it worth exposing my ideas supporting 
this theory, and my suppositions about the future of the War ?
 

Dharma replies:

I think that you are onto something here.  LV seems to have a problem 
underestimate the power of reciprocal relationships, which tends to 
lead to Harry's escape every time that he tries to kill him, or come 
back.

Harry is able to get to SS, because he has bonds with Hermione and 
Ron.  He acquires the tools to destroy Riddle's memory and Basilisk 
through loyalty to DD.  Pettigrew, one of Voldemort's "loyal" Death 
Eaters, now has a life debt to Harry.  The shadows of the slain and 
the Faux helped him escape the graveyard in PoA.  DD was able to stop 
Crouch from killing Harry, because he knew what to expect from the 
real Moody.  And in OotP, it is clear that everyone in the Order, 
including Snape, has enough motivation to fight to keep Harry alive.

I think that you should talk about your ideas.  There is quite a bit 
of support from the canon that Harry receives love and varying 
measures of positive regard. What else are you thinking about? 





From sundancing10 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 24 20:46:20 2004
From: sundancing10 at yahoo.com (sundancing10)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 20:46:20 -0000
Subject: Harry Teaching DADA
Message-ID: <c3ss2s+k5eg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93875

Don't know if this has been discussed yet (as I am relatively new to 
the list):  Any thoughts on Dumbledore picking Harry as the next 
DADA professor?  Certainly, he is very young, etc, but he would now 
be 'of age' and he has certainly proven his teaching ability in the 
DA.  Also, if the wizarding world is at war, not many would be 
available to teach and it could lead to even greater tension between 
Harry & Snape and Griffindors and Slytherins.  I don't really think 
JKR would necessarily do it, but it has great potential.


Any thoughts?


"sundancing10" 




From jennalei2003 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 24 22:03:55 2004
From: jennalei2003 at yahoo.com (electrogirl)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 14:03:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Has anyone noticed this?
Message-ID: <20040324220355.28840.qmail@web60505.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93876

I was rereading the other day, and this struck me as strange.  If it's been discussed, I'll accept my flogging graciously as long as post numbers are provided!
 
The leader of the headless hunt....Sir Patrick Delaney-Podmore, and then Order member Sturgis Podmore.....any connection???
 
Seems strange she'd give two seemingly unconnected characters the same surname....thoughts??
 
 

***Jen


There's no cure for stupid.
 
Are you keeping up or do you need some kind of English-to-Constant-Pain-in-My-Ass translation?

 
Just because you're allowed to use magic now you don't have to whip your wand out for every tiny little thing!




From cmjohnstone at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 24 16:30:14 2004
From: cmjohnstone at hotmail.com (littleleahstill)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 16:30:14 -0000
Subject: Ginny's animagus / JKR's feelings about cats
In-Reply-To: <7EA08A30-7D42-11D8-94CF-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu>
Message-ID: <c3sd2m+in0d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93877

Laura Ingalls Huntley <lhuntley at f...> wrote:
> You know, this ties into something I've never understood.  
> JKR *hates* cats.  Or, at least, she *says* she does.  For 
> example, a Comic Relief chat in March 2001:
> 
> Q: What or who would you send into Room 101**?
> 
> A: Cats - I don't like them, and certain journalists.
> 
> However, throughout the books, cats are shown in a v. positive 
> light -- sympathetic/good/etc. characters are or have cats all the 
> time.  In general, JKR portrays cats as intelligent, sensitive to 
> magic, and the natural companions of witches and wizards.  As you've 
> pointed out, Ginny is often described in terms of her catlike 
> qualities, and I'm fairly sure JKR likes her.  The only "bad cat" 
> example I can think of is Mrs. Norris, actually.
> 
> Can anyone explain this?  If JKR dislikes cats as much as she 
> dislikes journalist, how come they don't get the Rita Skeeter 
> treatment?
> 
> ** Room 101 is a 1984 reference of which I have only a v. vague 
> understanding, having never read the book.  It is, I think, sort of 
> like a boggart -- you go in and you see your greatest fear -- which 
> was used by the government as a torture for prisoners.


Laura,

The BBC have taken the idea from 1984 and made a programme called 
Room 101 in which various celebrities propose pet (sorry) hates to be 
banished into the oblivion which is Room 101 eg. football, mobile 
phones etc .  It's introduced by a comedian and is very light 
hearted.  I think this is what JKR would be referring to.  Back to 
HP: didn't JKR say in an interview that cats would be important in 
the story?  Could it be that they can pick up vibes and personality 
traits from their owners? This would explain the helpful Mr Tibbles 
and the unpleasant Mrs Norris.  Can they only do this with squibs, I 
wonder, or with muggles/wizards?  Of course, there already is a cat 
animagus in the shape of Prof. McGonagall, so perhaps the definite 
cat qualities attributed to Ginny mean something else.

"littleleahstill"




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 25 01:03:34 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 01:03:34 -0000
Subject: Dark Mark visibility . . . (was: Snape and the Order)
In-Reply-To: <c3r73u+c487@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3tb56+nqmj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93878

Inky-Julie wrote:
Actually its not my suggestion that the mark was less 
> visible but what both Karkaroff and Snape said. I don't know if its 
> just faded or invisible. Both men indicate that the appearance of
the Mark has become more noticable.  And on 709/710 Snape tells Fudge 
> that the Mark's appearance changes.  "It is not as clear as it was
an hour ... ago... but you can still see it."  So when Voldemort is 
> actively signalling his followers, it burns black (gah! Burns black, 
> why, oh why, did I call it a tattoo?)

Carol responds:
Don't worry about calling it a tattoo. I've probably made worse
mistakes on this list. And JKR makes them, too. We even have a name
for hers (Flints), as you may already know. You're clearly right that
the mark has faded and become dark again, as dark as it was before
Godric's Hollow, evidently, but I'm still not sure that it ever faded
completely. I don't think we have canon one way or another on that.

Inky-Julie wrote: 
> I agree totally "one of the purposes was to enable DEs who didn't 
> know each other to recognize each other" as you said, although I tend 
> to think that its not just a matter of rolling up sleeves, but more 
> of a magic signature to the brand. I think that the dormancy of the 
> Mark was a further factor in the DE's ability to lie low after 
> Voldemort vaporized (snicker, love your 'vapormort'!) 

Carol responds:
Wish I could take credit for "Vapormort," but I just picked it up from
other list members. We also have Quirrellmort and various other clever
little designations. (I call the ugly, baby-sized Voldemort that
Wormtail put in the cauldron "Babymort"; I don't know whether anyone
else does. :-) )
 
Inky_Julie wrote:
<largish snip> 
> Hum.  Now that I think of it I'm less convinced that that DArk Mark 
> serves as a visual recognition device (besides its primary function 
> as V.'s tool to summon/contact his followers).  Voldemort seems to 
> be the only one who can activate it--hence the 'fading' both 
> Karkaroff and Snape refer to.  I can see it burning darkly
> during a Death Eater function or raid, when Voldemort activates it so 
> that the 'team' knows each is supposed to be there (no aurors in 
> disguise).  I think there must be more than just a visual quality to 
> it, perhaps a non-visible magical resonance or some such 
> that all who bear it can pick up on.  Still mulling this over.

Carol:
There's an interesting moment in GoF that may be relevant here. When
Crouch!Moody (whom Snape still thinks is the real Moody) says, "I say
there are spots that don't come off, Snape. Spots that never come of,
d'you know what I mean?" Snape "seize[s] his left arm convulsively
with his right hand, as though something on it had hurt him." (GoF Am.
ed. 472) Of course, this passage reads very differently on a second
reading, when we know that Crouch!Moody is an imposter, but it
indicates to me that Crouch knows that Snape is loyal to Dumbledore
and therefore disloyal to Voldemort and that a loyal Death Eater can
cause pain to a disloyal one just by mentioning the mark. I wonder
what Snape thought of that incident, whether he reported it to
Dumbledore, and what they thought it meant at that point. (Surely the
real Moody speaking of the Dark Mark would not have caused Snape pain?
Or would it? Were Snape's suspicions aroused, or did he just view
"Moody" as a dangerous enemy even though they were technically on the
same side? He certainly was angry that "Moody" had been in his office,
dared to question his loyalty to Dumbledore, and tried to order him
around, but all of that would fit with the real Moody, too.)

Inky/Julie: 
> I agree, it was a courageous **and** a frustrated move on Snape's 
> part to shove the Mark under the nose of an angry and in-denial 
> Fudge. But I assume that Snape can only tolerate so much stupid self 
> delusion about a life threatening danger as Voldemort. And the 
> dialog notes Snape as speaking 'harshly' to the minister.  Much more 
> comfortable and safe to keep the mark hidden, and coast along under 
> Fudge's self-delusion that its all over, than to remind him by 
> showing off Voldemort's name tag.

Carol:
Yes. Good way of looking at it. Thank you for coming to the rescue of
my favorite character. (A side note on Fudge: Does anyone besides me
think Fudge, rather than Voldemort, sent Macnair as envoy to the
giants at Malfoy's suggestion, not knowing that Macnair is a DE? I
think Fudge is Malfoy's tool, not actually evil but ambitious,
foolish, and, as Julie says, in denial. How convenient for Malfoy,
trying to get back in LV's good graces after the Dark Mark incident,
that Macnair happens to work for the MoM's magical creatures division.)
  
> 
Inky/Julie
> who is so thrilled that Carol took the time and commented on her 
> ramblings.

Carol:
You're very welcome. And they were interesting, well-thought out 
"ramblings." :-)

Carol, who also tends to ramble when she has too many thoughts in her
head and no Pensieve handy




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 25 02:21:44 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 02:21:44 -0000
Subject: sirius as animagus - why didn't the deatheaters know pre OOP?
In-Reply-To: <c3rrc5+8oo6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3tfno+34hd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93879

princess laura wrote:
> <snip>In Voldy War 1 we know that Wormtail was passing information
to Voldy for a year before his fall.  Yet it is implied in OOP that
the death eaters did not know this [about Sirius being an animagus]
until after Voldy's resurrection. <snip> Wouldn't Peter have been
passing this kind of info about the members of the Order?
> 
> Berit replied:
> I believe Peter realised it would be smart to not tell everything... 
> Like Lucius, Peter is a very *slippery friend*, and would want to 
> cover his back and have an escape route should something go terribly 
> wrong. An when it did, he could turn into a rat and no one would be 
> any wiser as to his whereabouts (except Sirius who he believed was 
> safely locked up in Azkaban). His rat-disguise was a safety measure. 
> I believe he did not tell either Voldemort or his DE's about Sirius, 
> James and himself being animagi because it was useful to keep that 
> information to himself. He could of course have told Voldemort about 
> Sirius and James and "forgotten" to tell about himself. But if it 
> came out his former friends were animagi, don't you think Voldemort 
> would have suspected Peter might be one too and force him to admit 
> it? No, the safest thing was to keep the whole marauder-animagi a 
> secret. I think Voldemort only learned about Peter's rat-form when
he came to his rescue in the Albanian woods.


Carol:
I agree with Berit that the DEs didn't know that Peter and his former
friends were animagi, but I'm not so sure that LV himself didn't know,
given his supposed skill as a legilmens. However, we know from
Karkaroff's trial that LV kept a lot of useful information from the
DEs, including the identities of some of the members, because he
didn't fully trust them. Quite possibly he considered both Peter's
identity and his animagus ability as that sort of classified
information--useful to him but not something he thought the DEs needed
to know. Sirius's and James's animagus abilities would have been kept
secret, too, if LV didn't want his DEs to know which of James's
friends was the spy. (Please read on before you object that the DEs in
Azkaban knew it was Peter who told LV about the Potters.)

I know that the DEs in Azkaban knew that Peter was the Potter's secret
Keeper (and believe that he had betrayed them), but it's quite
possible, given LV's penchant for secrecy and his distrust even of his
own servants, that only one or two of them knew who the Potter's
Secret Keeper was. My theory is that Bellatrix, LV's star pupil and
favorite, passed on that information to her fellow DEs when she was
sent to Azkaban a year or so later than the rest. (That would explain
how the Azkaban DEs knew that Sirius was innocent of the Potters'
murder but Snape apparently didn't, whether or not he was already at
Hogwarts when they were killed. It would also explain why Snape didn't
know that WPP were animagi and why Sirius's "big disguise" does not
become "useless" until after Peter resurrects LV.)

To reiterate, in case my post is unclear: I think that LV probably
knew that Peter and his friends were animagi but withheld this
information from the Death Eaters and that only Bellatrix knew that
Peter was the Potters' Secret Keeper and betrayer. I suggest that the
imprisoned DEs learned of his being the spy/Secret Keeper from
Bellatrix when she joined them in Azkaban later, but they only learned
that Peter and Sirius were animagi after they escaped from prison.
(Malfoy, Avery, and the other "at large" DEs would have learned it
somewhat sooner, some time after the reunion in the graveyard.)
 
One more point about Peter that I made in another post but no one
responded to: I think his crimes go beyond betraying the Potters and
killing twelve Muggles while framing Sirius for his "murder." I think
he gave the names of the original Order members to LV, who in turn
gave at least some of those names to the DEs, which explains how they
could have been "picked off one by one" as Lupin puts it in OoP.

Carol




From ruminalus_ficus at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 25 01:16:40 2004
From: ruminalus_ficus at yahoo.com (Andrew)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 01:16:40 -0000
Subject: Harry Teaching DADA
In-Reply-To: <c3ss2s+k5eg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3tbto+a8c6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93880

sundancing10 wrote:
> Don't know if this has been discussed yet (as I am relatively new 
> to the list):  Any thoughts on Dumbledore picking Harry as the 
> next DADA professor?  Certainly, he is very young, etc, but he 
> would now be 'of age' and he has certainly proven his teaching 
> ability in the DA.  Also, if the wizarding world is at war, not 
> many would be available to teach and it could lead to even greater 
> tension between Harry & Snape and Griffindors and Slytherins.  I 
> don't really think JKR would necessarily do it, but it has great 
> potential. 



I believe has been discussed.  While it is an interesting idea, and 
would certainly result in increased animosity between the 
Gryffindors and Slytherins, and between Harry and Snape in 
particular, I don't think it can happen because Harry doesn't have 
the time to both teach and attend a full schedule of classes.  Of 
course some might argue that the situation could be easily remedied 
through the use of a time turner, but there wouldn't really be any 
reason for them to go that route (other than for the amusement of 
hearing "Potter fell asleep teaching class again" throughout the 
book).  I think it is more likely that JKR will stick to the pattern 
of introducing a new character for the DADA teacher at least for 
book 6.

-RF





From ruminalus_ficus at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 24 19:50:53 2004
From: ruminalus_ficus at yahoo.com (Andrew)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 19:50:53 -0000
Subject: Potions Master Question
In-Reply-To: <009f01c41212$71068320$bcde6251@kathryn>
Message-ID: <c3soqt+oam@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93881

Viridis :
> > [Dumbledore] is famous for defeating the dark wizard Grindelwald 
> > in 1945, for discovering the twelve uses of dragon's blood, and 
> > for his work on alchemy with his friend Nicolas Flamel. (HP 
> > Lexicon quoting Chocolate Frog Card)
<snip>

Kathryn Cawte: 
> There have been a lot of interesting answers to all of this - none 
> of which addressed what I thought was the flaw in your logic - 
> Potions making and alchemy aren't necessarily really the same 
> thing. If the twelve uses of dragon's blood are alchemical in 
> nature rather than as potions ingredients then there is no reason 
> why Dumbledore should have any knowledge of potions at all. 
<snip> 
> However one of the main aims of alchemists throughout the 
> centuries is to change base metals into gold - which could well 
> mean that someone skilled at transfiguration is as likely to 
> become a good alchemist as a 'Potions Master'. We don't know 
> enough about JKR's version of alchemy to say for certain - but 
> Flamel is always called an alchemist, not a Potions Master.

I think Kathryn has hit it.  Alchemy is really just a subset of 
transfiguration concerned with transmuting base metals into gold and 
producing the elixir.  So the chocolate frog card is really just 
telling us that Dumbledore is very experienced many fields of magic.

Defence Against the Dark Arts
- Dumbledore is famous for defeating the dark wizard Grindelwald 
  in 1945

Potions
- For discovering the twelve uses of dragon's blood

Transfiguration
- For his work on alchemy with his friend Nicolas Flamel. 

There is also evidence elsewhere in the books suggesting that 
Dumbledore has mastered other branches of magic not listed in the 
chocolate frog card.  These include Care of Magical Creatures 
(phoenixes are supposedly difficult to domesticate), Occulmency and 
Legilimency, Charms, and more. I think the purpose of mentioning 
these things is just to establish the extent of Dumbledore's 
understanding of magic.  It gives him credibility and influence.

-RF






From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 25 03:07:38 2004
From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (Ms Mo Me)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 19:07:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Lupin's resentment
In-Reply-To: <1080051270.8569.33223.m1@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040325030738.21742.qmail@web13501.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93882

Anna wrote:

In OoP, when Harry breaks into Umbridge's office to
talk to Sirius 
about what he had seen in the pensieve, Lupin  says:

"Harry, there is nothing so important as you learning
Occulemency!" 
said Lupin sternly.  Do you understand me?  Nothing!" 

When I reread  OoP, reading that line made me wonder
if, on a 
subconscious level,  Lupin  harbors any resentment
toward Harry 
because Harry's failure to learn Occulemency
ultimately lead to 
Sirius' death. 


Thanks, Anna.


Sorry I have not been keeping up with postings.  There
are just so many, and I am a little behind.  SO, if I
restate anything, I appologise.

I don't think Lupin harbors any resentment.  Actually,
I think he cared for Harry very much.  He was close to
James and I think feels, as Sirius did too, that he
has a responsibility towards Harry.

I think his statement of :

"Harry, there is nothing so important as you learning
Occulemency!" 
said Lupin sternly.  Do you understand me?  Nothing!"

is out of desperation.  He knows Harry can sometimes
ignore the warnings of adults and he knows how grave
the situation really is and is desperate to get HP to
learn occumlemency for his own saftey.  

I think we can confirm that Lupin doesn't resent HP
when after Sirius falls through the curtain:

"...Lupin grabbed Harry around the chest, holding him
back."
"There's nothing you can do, Harry-"
...........
Harry struggled vicously, but Lupin would not let
go...
"There's nothing you can do, Harry...nothing... He's
gone."

This is the point where I started crying.
Lupin has carried a lot of grief in his life and is
sort of used to handling it on his own.  Hence, why he
is so weary looking and early aged.  He knows that
Harry is in shock and what he is feeling/will feel
about the loss of Sirius.  I also think Lupin, as well
as some of the others, feels a considerable amount of
guilt for "letting" this happen.  They realize their
own mistakes for not letting HP know more.  All he can
do is hold Harry at that moment.

I think Lupin will play a much bigger role in the
books to come.  He is actually my favorite character,
and I have actually been thinking of posting a post
about Lupin fans.  There are HP, Sirius, Snape and DD
fans, but I have yet to run across a Lupin fan.

I think Lupin is the most genuine character out of all
of them.  I could go on about him right now, but I am
going a little off your topic.  

Sirius was the closest thing HP had to a father. 
Lupin knows this.  I doubt at all that he bares any
resentment to HP for not learning occumelency,
especially since he knows HP did not like Snape.  In
fact, I think Lupin will bear a lot of the grief from
the death of Sirius.

Just a thought.

~Mo





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Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
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From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 25 03:07:32 2004
From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (Ms Mo Me)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 19:07:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Lupin's resentment
In-Reply-To: <1080051270.8569.33223.m1@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040325030732.37455.qmail@web13505.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93883

Anna wrote:

In OoP, when Harry breaks into Umbridge's office to
talk to Sirius 
about what he had seen in the pensieve, Lupin  says:

"Harry, there is nothing so important as you learning
Occulemency!" 
said Lupin sternly.  Do you understand me?  Nothing!" 

When I reread  OoP, reading that line made me wonder
if, on a 
subconscious level,  Lupin  harbors any resentment
toward Harry 
because Harry's failure to learn Occulemency
ultimately lead to 
Sirius' death. 


Thanks, Anna.


Sorry I have not been keeping up with postings.  There
are just so many, and I am a little behind.  SO, if I
restate anything, I appologise.

I don't think Lupin harbors any resentment.  Actually,
I think he cared for Harry very much.  He was close to
James and I think feels, as Sirius did too, that he
has a responsibility towards Harry.

I think his statement of :

"Harry, there is nothing so important as you learning
Occulemency!" 
said Lupin sternly.  Do you understand me?  Nothing!"

is out of desperation.  He knows Harry can sometimes
ignore the warnings of adults and he knows how grave
the situation really is and is desperate to get HP to
learn occumlemency for his own saftey.  

I think we can confirm that Lupin doesn't resent HP
when after Sirius falls through the curtain:

"...Lupin grabbed Harry around the chest, holding him
back."
"There's nothing you can do, Harry-"
...........
Harry struggled vicously, but Lupin would not let
go...
"There's nothing you can do, Harry...nothing... He's
gone."

This is the point where I started crying.
Lupin has carried a lot of grief in his life and is
sort of used to handling it on his own.  Hence, why he
is so weary looking and early aged.  He knows that
Harry is in shock and what he is feeling/will feel
about the loss of Sirius.  I also think Lupin, as well
as some of the others, feels a considerable amount of
guilt for "letting" this happen.  They realize their
own mistakes for not letting HP know more.  All he can
do is hold Harry at that moment.

I think Lupin will play a much bigger role in the
books to come.  He is actually my favorite character,
and I have actually been thinking of posting a post
about Lupin fans.  There are HP, Sirius, Snape and DD
fans, but I have yet to run across a Lupin fan.

I think Lupin is the most genuine character out of all
of them.  I could go on about him right now, but I am
going a little off your topic.  

Sirius was the closest thing HP had to a father. 
Lupin knows this.  I doubt at all that he bares any
resentment to HP for not learning occumelency,
especially since he knows HP did not like Snape.  In
fact, I think Lupin will bear a lot of the grief from
the death of Sirius.

Just a thought.






__________________________________
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Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html



From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 25 02:27:30 2004
From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 02:27:30 -0000
Subject: MarioMort and the *real* villian, who is still out there
In-Reply-To: <c3p8cs+4u9d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3tg2i+8et4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93884

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jojobinks1983" 
<jojobinks1983 at y...> wrote:
> To me so far Voldemort hasn't been the most convincing of evil bad 
> guys. <snip> However, what if Voldemort isn't the ultimate bad guy 
in this tale? I 
> think he could merely be a pawn played by an even more evil 
overlord 
> (cue Slytherin) just as the DE are to him. <snip> > 
> Jo, who really wants Voldemort to get down with his evil side. Post 
> haste.

I agree that Voldemore seems too outlandish, what with his alabastor 
skin and scarlet eyes and whirling cape, to be much more than a front 
for the *real* bad guy. It really seems like someone is using LV as a 
straw man. 

There was a thread posted a couple months ago (If LV is the monkey, 
who is grinding the organ?) that had a couple good possibilities in 
it. It began on #85382. Here's a quick recap and some more terrible 
thoughts to chew on before JKR finishes Book 6. (I can't *believe* 
she's still writing the first draft, as she alluded to in her World 
Book Day chat. As Madelaine L'Engle said when she gave writing 
advice: "Don't think! Write!" Geez! It's been 14 mos since she turned 
in OOTP! Surely the first draft should be done.) 

Dumbledore: He created Tom Riddle, and he created Harry, in a new 
interp of *Frankenstein*.  DD gave Harry to the Dursleys in the 
beginning of SS/PS, knowing that he would be abused (see DD's 
comments in SS/PS when he's sitting outside with McGonagall, and that 
whole list of adverbs about Petunia's reaction in OOTP, "furiously, 
bitterly, etc., to describe how she took HP in), to attempt to 
recapitulate Tom Riddle's upbringing in a *Boys from Brazil* kinda 
way. DD gives Harry just enough information so that he screws up and 
LV returns to his full powers. The "glimmer of triumph" at the end of 
GoF was too scary. The Bumblebee also stings!

Fudge: The fumbling is a cover.

Hermione: With a really big time-turner and some gender bending, who 
would suspect our sweet little Hermy is the baddest one of all? 

Harry Himself: Ditto with the time-turner. I've considered before 
that the deep emotional and physical abuse (including being locked in 
a closet, repeated beatings, denigration, and starvation) that Harry 
suffers at the Dursleys' could lead to sociopathic behavior and 
multiple personality disorder. Harry's Evil Side incarnates itself as 
LV. This makes the books a parable for Original Sin. Also explains 
the twin wands thing. 

Malfoy: Wants to destroy the MoM and set himself up as Wizard 
Emporer, but wants total deniability in case it doesn't work, so he 
uses a straw man. 

Lupin: Everyone hates the werewolf, so Remus gives them something to 
hate. This is the wolf that didn't bark in the night. 

In general, though, I agree that LV has been piddling around too long 
with getting himself corporal again, and hasn't spent nearly enough 
time killing people and destroying property. How are we supposed to 
respect a guy who wants to take over the world unless he tries to do 
it?  

TK -- Tigerpatronus -- who is back after a brief hiatus to solve the 
mysteries of the brain and cognition. 







From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Thu Mar 25 03:11:03 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 03:11:03 -0000
Subject: Harry, Snape, Voldemort and the dark room
In-Reply-To: <c3rvr4+ilkm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3tik7+nsqc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93885

 Sue wrote:
I'm going to throw one more thing in because no one responded 
before:
 
In OotP, what was happening in the room with Rockwood moments 
before 
Harry went to sleep and melded with Voldemort?  What was happening 
just moments after?  Was the reason Snape was so upset about that 
because he almost saw something that would have created some real 
problems? Perhaps Snape was in that room too? If this is the case 
what would the problems be and for whom?  Snape lovers?  Snape 
doubters?
 
 
Potioncat:
Sue, can you give a chapter for this?  I don't recall which incident 
it was and I'd like to read it while I sit in the sun on the fence. 
And should we change the name of this post, I'm not sure how to.
Potioncat

Okay here's the chapter and some apologetic back peddling along with 
it...
It is OotP US pg. 590-593, the section where he goes into Snape's 
mind. Apparently, I misremembered the exchange (much hem kissing and 
begging for forgiveness).  It was Harry's vision of the circular room 
that caused Snape to get *really* angry.

Now that I am re-reading the section I wonder something else 
entirely.  Was Snape "looking furious" because as he was pushing into 
Harry's mind Voldemort was there also?  If Harry went farther than he 
had ever gone before how did he get there at that particular moment 
if V wasn't paying him a visit?  Rather bad situation for Snape 
meeting the Dark Lord in Harry's mind...

So...new questions, new thread subject.  Thanks Potioncat!

Sue

P.S. I still wonder about what would happen if Harry got invited into 
Voldie's mind when Snape was paying HIM a visit.





From p_implies_q at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 25 02:24:13 2004
From: p_implies_q at yahoo.com (p_implies_q)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 02:24:13 -0000
Subject: Potions Master Question
In-Reply-To: <009f01c41212$71068320$bcde6251@kathryn>
Message-ID: <c3tfsd+mgiv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93886

Viridis wrote:

<snip>
> > Dumble himself must be of the top Potions Masters of WW.  I 
find it
> hard to believe he was just a clerk for Flamel. We don?t know 
what he was
> doing for better part of his life, so he could easily enjoy *beauty 
of the
> softly simmering cauldron with its shimmering fumes, the 
delicate power of
> liquids that creep through human veins, bewitching the mind, 
ensnaring the
> senses*.

<snip>

K responded:

> However one of the main aims of alchemists throughout the 
centuries is to
> change base metals into gold - which could well mean that 
someone skilled at
> transfiguration is as likely to become a good alchemist as a 
'Potions
> Master'. We don't know enough about JKR's version of alchemy 
to say for
> certain - but Flamel is always called an alchemist, not a 
Potions Master.
<snip>
> K


Alice:

And at least as important, if it fits into JKR's concept of alchemy: 
the quest for the ability to turn base metals to gold is supposed 
to have reflected a more important, internal process.  I.e., if an 
alchemist attained a certain state of soul, he was supposed to 
be able to create the Philosopher's Stone.

For Snape's sake, I hope that Potions doesn't require a similar 
process.

Alice
--------
'Like Alice, I try to believe three impossible things before 
breakfast.'
--Doctor Who





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 25 03:19:09 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 03:19:09 -0000
Subject: Horse Feathers
In-Reply-To: <c3rt13+4c83@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3tj3d+nen3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93887

Someone wrote:
Why would Ollie think that the counterpart wand to the one that 
killed  his parents and scarred him be just the wand for Harry? 
 
greatelderone responded:
Because he was running out of wands. Remember. Testing out each wand 
probably narrowed down the category for him until he decided to give 
the phoenix wand a try. 
 
> Kneasy argued:
> Not so. "....looked instead at the thousands of narrow boxes piled
> neatly right  up  to  the ceiling."
> Whereas "...the pile of tried wands was mounting higher and higher
on the spindly chair." (PS chap.5) Still several thousand  to go, it
seems.

Carol chimes in:
Kneasy, I think you've missed a key word here: "category." I think
greatelderone is suggesting that the wands Ollivander is handing to
Harry represent certain types or categories that Ollivander is ruling
out. I would agree that there is at least some sort of system being
employed here and that Ollivander is not handing out wands randomly.
We know, based on Ollivander's words in that same chapter, that some
wands are particularly effective for Charms, others for
Transfiguration. We also know that some wands are more powerful than
others. James's is a little more powerful than Lily's but Voldemort's
is much more powerful than either.

I suggest that when Ollivander "measures" a student with his magical
tape measure, he's not concerned with the length of his arm or the
distance between his nostrils. The tape measure is sensing the magical
composition (for lack of a better word) of the student--his latent
skills and talents, and his potential power. So when he encountered
young Tom Riddle, what he sensed was primarily power, perhaps with
some strong Slytherinish tendencies mixed in, so he *knew* (possibly
after some preliminary testing as in Harry's case) that this very
powerful wand, the most powerful in his shop, was the right one for
this young wizard. The decision would have been confirmed, of course,
when Tom swished the wand through the air and produced what I presume
were green and silver sparks. That does not make Ollivander evil, nor
does it assume that Tom, age eleven, was already evil. Ollivander,
after all, states that he didn't know what that wand was going out
into the world to do, and Tom had not yet made the choices that would
make him irredeemably evil.
 <snip>

greatelderone wrote:
<snip> The wand isn't inherently evil only its user. <snip>

> Kneasy responded:
> Perhaps. But if you accept that the wand chooses the wizard, then it
> must do so based on some criteria. How does the wand choose?
> Voldy's wand chose an evil wizard, or if it  chose Tom, a twisted 
> personality. What does that say about the nature of the wand?

Carol:
I think that greatelderone is correct here. If a wand were inherently
evil, Ollivander would be an accessory to every murder or
Unforgiveable Curse performed by the owner of the wand. But I agree
with Kneasy that the wand (with some help from Ollivander, who has
already sized up the student's capabilities and has some idea which
wands will be most suitable) must have some criterion (probably more
than one) for choosing the wizard. In Lily's case, it was a talent for
Charms. In James's (and probably Sirius's), it was a gift for
Transfiguration. In Tom's, as Ollivander himself makes clear, it was
unusual power. A powerful wand chooses a powerful wizard. (I can find
the quotes to back up these statements if you need them.)

In Harry's case, IMO, it was an odd combination of his own inherent
gifts as a wizard in combination with whatever traits were transferred
to him by the deflected AK--including, I think, that same unusual
power. So Ollivander hesitated, but when other wands that might have
been compatible with Harry were not, he decided to try the most
powerful wand remaining in his shop--the "brother" of the wand that
gave Harry the scar--saw clear and immediate evidence that he had
chosen correctly, and immediately informed Dumbledore of this strange
(but possibly not unexpected) affinity. 

I certainly agree with Kneasy's (snipped) point that chance was not a
factor (maybe fate was, but I won't get into that), but there's no
need to assume that Dumbledore chose Harry's wand in advance. I think
it was simply the *one right wand* for Harry, and Ollivander, with his
many years of experience "sizing up" students with that magical tape
measure (yes, it's a pun), deduced that the time was right to test the
wand that he had probably been holding on to for years, ever since DD
informed him that Tom Riddle was Voldemort. He must have suspected
that Harry Potter, The Boy Who Lived, would be the right person for
that special wand, but he had to test him first to be sure.

Carol




From pegoheart144 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 24 23:16:17 2004
From: pegoheart144 at yahoo.com (pegoheart144)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 23:16:17 -0000
Subject: Harry's shortest stay at Privet Drive - Birthday Party
In-Reply-To: <c3e9kn+c1pf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3t4s1+dq3m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93888

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:

> The Birthday Party Theory-
> I think Harry, Ron, and Hermione will get an invitation to Neville's
> Birthday party. Since Harry was born at the end of July, we can assume
> Neville was born at least a few days before him.


I like the idea that leaves Privet Drive early for a Birthday Party. 
I think it would be his own though. He's never had one and that might 
help him snap out of his depression.

Even if he left on his birthday that would qualify as the earlist 
date he left Privet Drive.

"pegoheart"




From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 25 03:27:07 2004
From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (Ms Mo Me)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 19:27:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Why does Ron have a crush on Hermione?
In-Reply-To: <1080159552.9355.99565.m1@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040325032707.52017.qmail@web13502.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93889


   From: "Robert Jones" <jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net>

Why does Ron have a crush on Hermione?  She's "plain"
looking, so 
it's not her looks.  It's not jealousy since Harry
hasn't shown 
interest in her (or vice versa).  Her main character
traits seem to 
be that she is bookish and bossy  why would he be
attracted to 
that?  She has proven herself to be brave and talented
on their 
adventures with Harry  but is that all?



Mo:

Actually, we find out that she is NOT so plain in book
4.  She just chooses not to upkeep her appearance most
of the time.  But, she is a pretty girl.

Also, yes she is bookish and bossy, but some guys are
attracted to a "challenge."  They like dominant women.
   
Ron's mother is very strong and bossy, but also
emotional.  Hermione is strong and bossy, but also
cries a lot/is emotional.  
I think Ron is attracted to that.  (Oedipus complex,
maybe???) She frustrates him and he doesn't know what
to make of it and is attracted to her without even
knowing why.



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html



From pt4ever at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 25 03:35:14 2004
From: pt4ever at yahoo.com (JoAnna)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 03:35:14 -0000
Subject: MarioMort and the *real* villian, who is still out there
In-Reply-To: <c3tg2i+8et4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3tk1i+anm6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93890

Tigerpatronus wrote:

<<<Here's a quick recap and some more terrible thoughts to chew on
before JKR finishes Book 6. (I can't *believe* she's still writing the
first draft, as she alluded to in her World Book Day chat. As
Madelaine L'Engle said when she gave writing advice: "Don't think!
Write!" Geez! It's been 14 mos since she turned in OOTP! Surely the
first draft should be done.)>>>

In JKR's defense, she has a LOT going on in her life.  She's a mother
of a preteen (I believe, maybe a teenager?) and a toddler (little
David just turned 1 year old yesterday), and a husband, all of whom
whom she probably likes to spend most of her time with.  Add to that
the fact that she has a lot of publicity stuff to do with the books
and movies (I imagine she had a ton of that to do shortly before and
after the release of OotP, as well), and she's probably helping to
write the scripts for the movie version of GoF and has just finished
giving input into the movie version of PoA.  In short, she's quite a
busy person.  

I have a feeling that, with JKR, family is a priority over her job.  I
also have a feeling that she's a bit of a perfectionist, so she is
probably working long and hard on the first draft.  (And if book 6 is
as long or longer than GoF or OotP, I don't wonder that it's taking a
while!)

Just thought I'd comment - though I'm as impatient as you are for book
#6!  :)  Knowing we have the movie of PoA to look forward to in a few
months is the only thing that helps curb my longing...

- JoAnna




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 25 03:45:01 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 03:45:01 -0000
Subject: Sirius/Tonks
In-Reply-To: <c3s7rs+umpf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3tkjt+aeld@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93891

-> Del :
> I've read the responses people gave to your post, and unless I 
> missed some, nobody asked the first and obvious question : how would 
> she know that ?
> And the consequent questions : would anyone else know it too then ? 
> Would DD know it ? Would DD be lying to Harry when he pretends to 
> believe Sirius is dead ? If anyone else knows about Sirius actually 
> being alive, why don't they say so ? Etc...

Carol:
Dumbledore found out that Sirius was an animagus just after HRH did,
at the end of PoA. Voldemort presumably found out after Peter found
him in Albania. He tells the Death Eaters in the graveyard about
"Wormtail's" ability to transfigure himself into a rat. Presumably he
told at least some of them (Malfoy and Bellatrix) about Sirius's
ability to turn into a dog soon afterwards. We know from Snape's
remarks to Sirius that Malfoy saw him in dog form on Platform 9 3/4
and knew who he was, and Lucius appears to have informed Draco, who
makes a nasty remark on the Hogwarts Express about Harry's footsteps
being "dogged." I'm guessing that all of the DEs, both those who
escaped from Azkaban with Bellatrix and those who were already free
like Malfoy knew about it, which is why Sirius was trapped in the
house for so long. ("My big disguise is useless." Okay, I'll stop
using that quote!)

> Del :
<snip> 
> I gave it some thought, and came up with quite a few reasons for 
> Bellatrix to say "the Animagus Black".
> 
> 1. She was being redundant. It does happen. Or maybe Pippin (I 
> think, sorry otherwise) is right, and it's all part of a specific 
> speech pattern.

Carol:
Erm, that was my post. :-)

Carol






From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 25 03:02:42 2004
From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 19:02:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The power LV knows not
In-Reply-To: <c3s8bm+hvgn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040325030242.53122.qmail@web41805.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93892

Del wrote:
Tom Riddle was a half-blood raised in a Muggle orphanage, who ended 
up in Slytherin.

Is it possible that he never received any love from anyone ?

That would explain why Harry has a power that LV doesn't know : not 
because Harry has exceptionally a lot of love, but simply because LV 
never received any.

Am I completely crazy, or is it worth exposing my ideas supporting 
this theory, and my suppositions about the future of the War ?

Del

 

My (Mela) reply:

 

Nope I think you are right there.  The truth of it is the one major thing that seperates Harry from Voldemort is love.  I disagree that Tom did not experience love though.  I personally believe that Dumbledore did care and love Tom, but Tom rejected it.  

Why?  Well, Tom had been rejected by everyone in his life.  The boy had no stability.  Allowing himself to feel love was opening himself up to letting someone else let him down or worst loosing them.  

That scares me about Harry too.  After loosing Sirius I think he is going to withdraw very much and try to stop loving for his and others safety.  This is probably the scariest prospect in the coming books to me.

In regards to what effect Tom Riddle and love will have on the war.  I think that ultimately Voldie will learn to love which is what will be his eventual defeat.  

~Melanie


 

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Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From snapesmate at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 25 01:56:17 2004
From: snapesmate at hotmail.com (snapesmate)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 01:56:17 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore's bad descisions?
Message-ID: <c3te81+in3v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93893

I still think it is odd that Professor Dumbledore saw fit to TAKE 
Harry, disregarding James and Lily's descision to appoint Sirius as 
Harry's guardian.  If Sirius had had Harry, he may not have gone 
after Peter the rat and been framed.  Professor Dumbledore also 
decided not to tell Harry about the prophecy, to have Sirius STAY at 
Grimmauld Place instead of somewhere else.  You know, as good as 
Dumbledore seems, he is actually responsible for a lot of confusion 
and problems.  Indirectly of course, but none the less...

Lynnette, who thinks Snape IS a good guy, even if he is NOT a nice
guy!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterverseofadults




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 25 04:32:11 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 04:32:11 -0000
Subject: "You heard James?" (Was: Harry bezoared)
In-Reply-To: <c3rt76+blot@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3tncb+mpcg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93894

> Lynette wrote:
> Then I think of Lupin's remark in PoA. He said "you heard James?"
> (paraphrasing) to Harry during the patronus lesson.  Why?  He didn't
> question Harry's hearing Lily's scream. Does he know something about
> James yet to be told?
> 
> Carol wrote:
> I think this remark is one of our first clues that Lupin was a good
> friend of James's, a fact he's been concealing from Harry and now
has to partially admit. 
> 
> vmonte responds:
> Everyone knows that Lupin was friends with James -- why would he
hide that from Harry? <snip>


Carol again:
I'm not sure whom you mean by "everyone." Certainly the teachers know
it, but Harry doesn't find that out until he eavesdrops on the
conversation between McGonagall, Flitwick, Hagrid, Fudge, and Madam
Rosmerta (what a motley crew!). Lupin, IMO, conceals his friendship
with James from Harry because it was also a friendship with Sirius,
whom Lupin at that time believes to be a traitor and a murderer, who
also happens (he thinks) to be after Harry. But once Lupin makes that
little slip, revealing that he knew James, he has to admit that he
also knew Sirius, and the walls of his secrecy start to crumble. (He's
still hiding the fact that he and his friends were illegal animagi
even from Dumbledore, and the fact that he's a werewolf from Harry and
all the other students.) So I still think that he was concealing his
friendship with James from Harry at that point in the story, and that
"You heard James?" was a slip. 

Harry responds by saying, "Why--you didn't know my dad, did you?" and
Lupin (realizing what he's said), stammers, "I--I did, as a matter of
fact. We were friends at Hogwarts." But then he hurriedly changes the
subject and starts making excuses to end the lesson. "Listen,
Harry--perhaps we should leave it here for tonight. This charm is
ridiculously advanced. . . . I shouldn't have suggested putting you
through this." it's only because Harry insists that they continue the
lesson. Then, as Harry's about to leave, Harry asks, "Professor Lupin?
If you knew my dad, you must have known Sirius Black as well. Lupin's
response is to ask *sharply* (JKR's word), "What gives you that idea?"
Clearly he is trying to cover up his former friendship with Sirius.
"Nothing," says Harry. "I mean, I just knew they were friends at
Hogwarts, too." Lupin, apparently relieved that Harry doesn't think
he's hiding or aiding Sirius, relaxes and says *shortly* (JKR's word),
"Yes, I knew him. Or thought I did." And he closes the discussion:
"You'd better be off, Harry., it's getting late." (PoA, Am. ed. 242-43).

This conversation indicates to me that Lupin was indeed concealing his
friendship with both James and Sirius from Harry up to that moment,
and he is revealing as little as possible about it even after he
accidentally lets the cat out of the bag. He could have said, "Yes,
Harry. Your father, Sirius, Peter Pettigrew, and I were a foursome at
Hogwarts. We were very close. I never dreamed that Sirius would betray
your father and end up killing Peter" (which is what Lupin believes at
that time). But he doesn't say anything of the sort. 

Why not? I think it's because he's afraid that Harry will associate
him with the "murderer" Sirius, a fear that's quickly eliminated by
this conversation, and he's afraid that his other secrets will be
discovered. So in Lupin's view, the less Harry knows, the better. He
later admits that he was one of the four makers of the Marauder's Map,
but it's only in the shrieking Shack scene, when Hermione confronts
him about being a werewolf and Sirius has convinced him that he's not
a murderer that he finally reveals the closeness of his relationship
and all the other secrets that he's been concealing from Harry PoA Am.
ed. 353).

Carol




From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Thu Mar 25 04:59:27 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 04:59:27 -0000
Subject: sirius as animagus - why didn't the deatheaters know pre OOP?
In-Reply-To: <c3t6f5+lud7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3tovf+9cmv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93895

Potioncat wrote:
> 
> > --James, Sirius, and Peter didn't let the Order know about being 
> > animagi either.
> 
> Marianne:
> Which I think is a point with as much interest as when the DEs 
> finally found out.  What seems odd is that since the original Order 
> was very out-gunned, it would seem to me that letting Dumbledore 
know 
> of an additional power that three of the Order's members had - 
being 
> Animagi - could have aided the Order in their fight.  I doubt that, 
> had Dumbledore known, that he would have insisted the three be 
good, 
> upstanding citizens and rush right down to the Ministry and 
> register.  Rather, I think Dumbledore wouldn't have thought twice 
> about telling J,P, and S to not tell anyone else, and to put their 
> abilities to use.  Okay, maybe Stag!James would have been a bit 
> obvious trotting around the middle of town, but a stray dog or a 
> scurrying rat - now those were disguises that would allow two Order 
> members to travel fairly unnoticed.
> 
> So, why wasn't Dumbledore told?
> 
> Marianne


Two points from me...

They were only a few years out of school and although the were doing 
important work for the Order (they would not have had to defy Lord 
Thingy "thrice" if they weren't) they were probably a little 
concerned about telling DD about their transgressions in school.  
They still did not know whom they could trust for sure either, they 
even doubted each other. Obviously, they should have doubted each 
other even more.

As a side note, the DE's knew about the Marauder's alter egos because 
of Wormtail.  He no longer hid his ability and certainly would have 
also shared the info about the others.  In the very beginning of 
OotP, it was Malfoy who made the "dogging" comment.  Obviously Peter 
wasted no time in sharing his information with all the DEs now that 
he was officially one of them.

Sue





From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Thu Mar 25 05:19:43 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 05:19:43 -0000
Subject: sirius as animagus - why didn't the deatheaters know pre OOP?
In-Reply-To: <c3tfno+34hd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3tq5f+sdd4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93896

Snip of excellent post about LV knowledge.
> One more point about Peter that I made in another post but no one
> responded to: I think his crimes go beyond betraying the Potters and
> killing twelve Muggles while framing Sirius for his "murder." I 
think
> he gave the names of the original Order members to LV, who in turn
> gave at least some of those names to the DEs, which explains how 
they
> could have been "picked off one by one" as Lupin puts it in OoP.
> 
> Carol

There is *no* question in my mind that Peter's crimes against 
humanity are farther reaching than we yet know.  Why did the 
Lestranges, Crouch and ? go after the Longbottoms?  Someone KNEW they 
were the only other couple who fit the profecy and had a child and I 
don't think Volde shared that information.  Peter knew why Voldemort 
wanted the Potters and he knew there was another couple who could 
have fulfilled the profecy.  He sent that horrible group to the 
Longbottoms to buy himself time to escape.  

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

Sue, Who is now wondering if Neville will ever find out who betrayed 
his parents.




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 25 05:20:30 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 05:20:30 -0000
Subject: Potions Master Question
In-Reply-To: <c3sh74+aj16@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3tq6u+t6pr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93897

> Neri:
> My impression is that transfiguration is considered the most 
> distinguished field of magic, sort of like physics in muggle science. 
> Transfiguration seems to have a strong theoretical basis. It requires 
> a lot of intelligence and learning, but also a lot of power (James's 
> wand, which was especially suited transfiguration, was more powerful 
> than Lily's wand, which was more suited to Charms). Transfiguration 
> also has obvious utility, but mainly for big and impressive stuff, 
> not household chores, and is very dangerous when not applied 
> correctly. It is probably not a coincidence that the current 
> headmaster deputy in Hogwarts is the transfiguration teacher.
> 
> Potions, on the other hand, seems to be less a distinguished field 
> than Charms and DADA, not to mention Transfiguration. It is important 
> because of its obvious utility, but it doesn't have a strong 
> theoretical basis, but seems to have its roots in the humble skill of 
> cooking. Snape's opening remarks in the first Potions lesson in SS/PS 
> (paraphrasing: "no silly wand waving here") sounds like a typical 
> inferiority complex, and Snape himself is only the Potions Master 
> because he didn't get the DADA job. Being the Transfiguration Master 
> for several years is a probably the best qualification for the 
> headmaster position, thought perhaps not an obligatory condition. 
> Even if DD was the Potion Master for a time, he'd want the promotion 
> to the Transfiguration job.

Carol:
I don't agree with your assessment of Potions as less important than
Transfiguration. Snape's words about being able to stopper death,
etc., (paraphrasing here) suggest that it's very important in the WW,
and if "obvious utility" is an argument for the utility of
Transfiguration, surely it applies to Potions as well. Think of the
poisons Lucius Malfoy had (or has) stashed in his manor. Think of the
antidotes needed for those poisons that only a Potions Master like
Snape could concoct. Wizard medicine is dependent on potions--most
likely Snape prepares many of the potions that Madam Pomfrey uses in
the hospital wing, certainly those that aren't made from Professor
Sprout's plants. Snape's potion-making abilities made it possible for
a werewolf to teach at Hogwarts. And the Weasley twins may hate Snape,
but potions surely play a role in their Skiving snackboxes, or they
wouldn't be stealing doxy eggs and other unwholesome ingredients from
12 Grimmauld Place. I have a feeling that other potions, notably the
Draught of Peace, and antidotes such as bezoars, will be very
important in Books 6 and 7.

As for Transfiguration, it enables a select few witches and wizards to
transform themselves into cats, rats, dogs, and beetles. It enables
students to transform a guinea pig into a guinea fowl. It enables a
rogue teacher to punish a student (against the rules) by turning him
into a ferret. No doubt it has its uses. It would be interesting to
see Harry turn Lucius into a ferret, for example. But I can't see that
it's more important than potions, on which wizards rely for everything
from regrowing bones to sleeking down their hair for the Yule Ball. 

Interestingly, I held the same dismissive view of Charms (banishing
and summoning charms are useful, certainly, but not up there with
Potions or Transformation) until I realized that the champions in GoF
used Charms almost exclusively to survive the Tri-Wizard Tournament (I
realize there are exceptions, like Harry's gillyweed, a potion
ingredient, and Krum's incomplete transformation into a shark, but
IIRC, charms were used more often than transfiguration in the other
tasks.) I'm not sure how to classify hexes and jinxes, which don't
sound like anything Flitwick would teach, but wouldn't they also be
mostly charms rather than transfiguration?

Anyway, I've noticed that the four heads of houses teach the four core
subjects of the Hogwarts curriculum: Transfiguration, Potions, Charms,
and Herbology (two courses that require wands, two that don't).
Defense against the Dark Arts is not one of the four "pillars" of the
school but an unfortunate necessity in a world where students jinx one
another in the corridors, a family argument can send you to St.
Mungos's with a walnut up your nose, and Death Eaters kill Muggles for
sport. The other courses (History of Magic, Care of Magical Creatures,
Divination, Astronomy) seem less central to the WW than these four.
Maybe Charms is a bit less important than Transfiguration, but they're
closely related, and Herbology and Potions are interdependent. I don't
think Dumbledore would consider McGonagall's course more important
than Snape's. In fact, I think it's of the essence that he has the
best Potion Master available for a class where many things could go
wrong. Imagine a Lockhart teaching Potions. It would be a serious,
possibly a fatal, mistake.

Carol




From unbound_to_the_circles at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 25 04:13:37 2004
From: unbound_to_the_circles at yahoo.com (unbound_to_the_circles)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 04:13:37 -0000
Subject: Why does Ron have a crush on Hermione?
In-Reply-To: <20040325032707.52017.qmail@web13502.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c3tm9h+tjna@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93898

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ms Mo Me <fauntine_80 at y...>
wrote:
> 
>    From: "Robert Jones" <jones.r.h.j at w...>
> 
> Why does Ron have a crush on Hermione?  She's "plain" looking, so 
> it's not her looks.  It's not jealousy since Harry hasn't shown 
> interest in her (or vice versa).  Her main character traits seem to 
> be that she is bookish and bossy ? why would he be attracted to 
> that?  She has proven herself to be brave and talented on their 
> adventures with Harry ? but is that all?
> 

*rises from the swamp to put in her two knuts*

I think it might be because Hermione has a talent to see the hidden
strengths in people. While it's going to be the most obvious in the
way she eggs on Harry (we all know her little inspirational speech she
gave to Harry in PS/SS), would she really nag Ron - and Harry - if she
didn't know he had the potential to be as great a wizard that people
think Harry -and Herself!- had the potential to be. She does with others 
as well, although maybe not as obviously - she tries to help Neville,
and I can believe that Hermione would willingly help anyone who asked
for it. For all she's nagging, she's also, in her own lovely, bossy way, telling him that he can do it, if he'd only apply himself. She knows that Ron isn't as
smart as she is, but she also knows that's not all that matters; she
knows Ron will be a great wizard, or has the potential to be. When you
have to share your mother and father with six other kids, and you're the last boy, it's somewhat nice to have someone who believes in you. Ron is already
showing that he will be a talented wizard - he almost managed to make
Malfoy 'eat slugs' (and would have succeeded, to, if it weren't for
that pesky wand!) I, personally, sail on the good ship HMS Pumpkin Pie
(Harry/Hermione), but I could certainly see why Ron would have deep
affection for Hermione. Here is a pretty, talented witch - one of the
most intelligent - and she believes in him, when it seems almost no
one does. Wouldn't that make you fall in love?

*retreats back to the bog to mess with the hinkypunks*

"unbound_to_the_circles"




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 25 06:16:55 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 06:16:55 -0000
Subject: Snape and the Order
In-Reply-To: <c3sl9a+ssio@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3ttgn+nr5d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93899

Carol:
> 
> So I think that Snape was working in the utmost secrecy, with only
DD aware of what he was doing until he was hauled in front of Crouch 
> as a suspected DE and cleared by Dumbledore's testimony. That was
the point, I'm guessing, when DD decided to give Snape a teaching 
> position to keep him safe.
> 
> I think Dumbledore's testimony came in a closed, grand jury-type 
> hearing, not before the Wizengamot (or Wizard's Council, as it is 
> called in GoF), since nobody knows Snape was a DE, while everyone, 
> even Ron, seems to know how Lucius Malfoy escaped justice.  If so, 
> Dumbledore's testimony would not have put Snape in additional 
> danger. 

Carol:
Yes, but over 200 witches and wizards were present for Karkaroff's
testimony against his fellow DEs, including Snape. True, both Crouch
and Dumbledore vouched for Snape, but Moody clearly had doubts that he
had reformed. (Crouch!Moody, of course hated him for the opposite reason.)
 
Carol:
> > Unlike Potioncat, I think he became a teacher before Voldemort's 
> fall (around September 1 rather than November 1 or so). 
> 
Debbie:
> I think canon strongly implies that Snape did not begin teaching at 
> Hogwarts until *after* the events at Godric's Hollow.

Carol:
Can you provide your canon for this? IIRC, all we have is Snape's
statement that he's been teaching at Hogwarts for fourteen years.
Unlike McGonagall, who says "thirty years this December," he does not
supply a month, suggesting (to me, at least) that he began teaching at
the usual beginning of term, September first.

Debbie:
<snip> In the Shrieking 
> Shack, Sirius was very surprised to discover that Snape was at 
> Hogwarts, and only at that point did he learn that Snape was a 
> teacher.  However, I think that Snape took up residence at Hogwarts 
> as a sanctuary immediately afterwards. 

Carol:
Sirius was busy working with the Order and deciding whether to be
Secret Keeper. I don't know where the Order's headquarters was at that
time, but it certainly wasn't at Hogwarts. So there's no reason why he
would know whether Snape was there or not, and no particular reason
why he would be following Snape's movements in any case. 

Debbie: 
> Just to clarify:  do you think Dumbledore testified before Crouch 
> *before* Voldemort's fall?  Otherwise it would be inconsistent to
say that Dumbledore gave Snape the job before Godric's Hollow if he 
> didn't decide to do it until after his testimony.

Carol:
We know that Snape "returned to our side," as DD puts it, before
Voldemort's fall and spied for DD "at great personal risk" during that
time. So clearly the spying job was before Godric's Hollow. I'm
assuming (sorry--no canon that I know of) that DD vouched for Snape at
that private hearing after he had proven himself. (The Karkaroff
hearing was clearly later, probably after he had begun teaching.)
Obviously we both need to work out a time sequence for all this if we
can, but I don't think we have enough evidence to be sure either way.
> 
Carol wrote:
That's the only way I can explain the DEs in Azkaban knowing about
Pettigrew when Snape apparently didn't. If he was at Hogwarts that
Halloween night (and the week or so before while the Secret Keeper
arrangements were being made), he wouldn't know that Peter, not
Sirius, betrayed the Potters. He'd be as much in the dark as
Dumbledore apparently was.
> 
Debbie responded:
> I doubt very many people knew that Pettigrew was working for the 
> DEs.  It would have endangered Pettigrew's role to spy on the Order 
> if more people knew than were absolutely necessary.  After 
> Voldemort's disappearance, however, any intelligence the DEs had
that Pettigrew had ratted on his friends in order to be on the winning 
> side would be very important to know because it would establish his 
> lack of trustworthiness in future operations.  These concerns would 
> have been justified, IMO, as Pettigrew only went back to Voldemort 
> when he was out of other options. <snip>

Carol:
I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. I guess you don't think
that Snape had to be at Hogwarts to be unaware that Pettigrew rather
than Sirius was the spy/Secret Keeper. (I've argued elsewhere that
Bellatrix was probably the only DE who knew and later informed the DEs
alreay in Azkaban.) But you seem to agree that Snape didn't know, and
therefore that he really believed Sirius was a murderer until the end
of PoA, just as DD and the Weasleys and everyone else did. (Let me
know if I'm misinterpreting you here.)

Debbie:
> I think it more likely that Snape came to Dumbledore a couple of 
> weeks before the attacks. We learn in PoA (don't have the book handy 
> or I'd quote) that the charm was put in place because one of 
> Dumbledore's spies tipped him off that Voldemort was after the 
> Potters, and that the attack occurred approximately one week after 
> the charm was performed.   
> Also, in light of all the canon developing the backstory
relationship  between Snape and the Potters, I would be very surprised
if Dumbledore learned that Voldemort had targetted the Potters from 
> anyone other than Snape. <snip>
> It also seems very plausible that Snape's learning that the Potters 
> had been targeted for elimination was the catalyst that set in
motion his changing sides, another piece of circumstantial evidence
pointing to his joining Dumbledore within a couple weeks of the
attack. <reluctant snip>

Carol:
My only problem with this scenario is that it doesn't allow much time
for Snape to be a spy "at great personal risk" before he becomes a
teacher. And you can't just create a teaching position out of thin
air. There had to be at least one vacancy, either Potions or DADA or
both. Maybe the Potions teacher became the DADA teacher so Snape could
have the position. But I think he must have applied before the
beginning of the term, knowing that there was a vacancy, rather than
somehow being giving a teaching position well into the term because he
was in need of a safe haven. (I don't question the need for a safe
haven; I just think he must have been teaching at Hogwarts already
before the Godric's Hollow murders.)

Debbie:
> I can't imagine that he would have approved of the DEs' taste for 
> purposeless Muggle killings, or of the kind of obsequiousness the
DEs were required to show toward Voldemort, and, probably, toward
their  DE superiors. Continuing that relationship is a role that Snape
must play as a spy.  I think he's been playing that role for the last
14 years, and that Snape's treatment of the Slytherins vs. his
treatment of Harry is a big part of that.  However, it must be very 
> distasteful for him to continue a role he rejected when he left the 
> DEs. 

Carol:
I agree with almost all of this, except that I think the period of
spying preceding the teaching was somewhat longer, more than a year
based on the time between the prophecy and the start of term the
following year.

Debbie:
 Therefore, Sirius' taunt that Snape was Lucius' lapdog must 
> have seemed particularly cruel to him, because it was both painful 
> and, at least at one level, true.  To take up a point that Eloise 
> made on another thread, though, I have no doubt, however, that Snape 
> views Lucius as the lapdog.

Carol:
Just a quibble here, and I've said this before to no avail. Everyone
seems to take "lap dog" to mean "errand boy," but it actually means "a
small pet dog" or "pampered pet." Picture a rich old woman with her
pampered miniature poodle in her lap. So, yes, it's an insult to both
Lucius and Severus, but it seems to me to apply to a time when they
were boys (five or six years apart) and Severus was sort of a "pet" to
the older Lucius, who IMO found him precocius and amusing.

> Debbie who is sorry to have rambled on so, but posts on Snape so
> rarely that it seemed important to cram it all into one post

Carol, who can't comprehend posting rarely on Snape!




From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 25 06:44:34 2004
From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 06:44:34 -0000
Subject: Why does Ron have a crush on Hermione?
In-Reply-To: <20040325032707.52017.qmail@web13502.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c3tv4j+dfmd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93900

> Mo:
> 
> Actually, we find out that she is NOT so plain in book
> 4.  She just chooses not to upkeep her appearance most
> of the time.  But, she is a pretty girl.
> 
> Also, yes she is bookish and bossy, but some guys are
> attracted to a "challenge."  They like dominant women.
>    
> Ron's mother is very strong and bossy, but also
> emotional.  Hermione is strong and bossy, but also
> cries a lot/is emotional.  
> I think Ron is attracted to that.  (Oedipus complex,
> maybe???) She frustrates him and he doesn't know what
> to make of it and is attracted to her without even
> knowing why.
> 
You know, I've been thinking about this a lot since this question came up (which just 
proves I need to get a life). It seems to me that you're exactly right: Hermione demands a 
lot of Ron, but she also believes in him, and so it isn't at all surprising that he would be 
interested in her. Even teenage boys are less stereotype driven than you would think when 
it comes to whom they are attracted to....

Having said that, Ron's main weakness is his low self-esteem. Now, we've had a character 
come in in the last book who clearly *adores* Ron: Luna. OK, so she's an oddball who 
wears salad items as jewelry. Still she's talented, smart, and emotionally fairly mature for a 
fifteen-year-old--the scene with Harry at the end of OotP wipes me out. It seems that 
perhaps JKR is setting Ron up for a heavy jolt of positive reinforcement


ANtosha, who doesn't SHIP, really, but who thinks any series of books about a co-ed 
group of teens sort of HAS to involve romance (and all that goes with it)




From jujupoet29 at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 25 06:50:41 2004
From: jujupoet29 at hotmail.com (sienna291973)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 06:50:41 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment
In-Reply-To: <20040325030732.37455.qmail@web13505.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c3tvg1+nika@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93901

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ms Mo Me <fauntine_80 at y...> 
wrote:

*snip*

> I think we can confirm that Lupin doesn't resent HP
> when after Sirius falls through the curtain:
> 
> "...Lupin grabbed Harry around the chest, holding him
> back."
> "There's nothing you can do, Harry-"
> ...........
> Harry struggled vicously, but Lupin would not let
> go...
> "There's nothing you can do, Harry...nothing... He's
> gone."
> 
> This is the point where I started crying.

*snip*
 
> I think Lupin will play a much bigger role in the
> books to come.  He is actually my favorite character,
> and I have actually been thinking of posting a post
> about Lupin fans.  There are HP, Sirius, Snape and DD
> fans, but I have yet to run across a Lupin fan.
> 
> I think Lupin is the most genuine character out of all
> of them. 

I agree!  If you're looking for another Lupin fan, you've found 
one.  He is one of my favourites. I think he's definitely worth a 
thread all his own.  I think we also see how intensely affected he 
is by Sirius' death in the immediate aftermath:

Lupin turned away from the archway as he spoke.  It sounded as 
though every word was causing him pain.
OoTP, pg 713

This line made ME cry.  I think if anything, Lupin's quite grief got 
to me more than anything else about that scene.

Sienna
Lupin Fan #2





From jenjar2001 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 25 07:15:48 2004
From: jenjar2001 at yahoo.com (jenjar2001)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 07:15:48 -0000
Subject: Headless Podmore was: Has anyone noticed this?
In-Reply-To: <20040324220355.28840.qmail@web60505.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c3u0v4+4ujo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93902

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, electrogirl <jennalei2003 at y...> 
wrote:
> I was rereading the other day, and this struck me as strange.  If 
it's been discussed, I'll accept my flogging graciously as long as 
post numbers are provided!
>  
> The leader of the headless hunt....Sir Patrick Delaney-Podmore, and 
then Order member Sturgis Podmore.....any connection???
>  
> Seems strange she'd give two seemingly unconnected characters the 
same surname....thoughts??
>  
>  
> 
> ***Jen

Jenjar:

I wanted to ask the same question.  I just finished COS and I'm sure 
it's not a coincidence.  I reread the deathday party where we meet 
Patrick Delaney-Podmore and I'm sure we will see more of him.  No 
idea where though.  I wonder how aware he was of Sturgis Podmore.  
You would think if they were family, Patrick might have visited 
Sturgis occasionally.  Could Patrick possess some knowledge of 
Sturgis' work that would be useful? (seeing as Sturgis was killed 
before he was able to say anything about his experience in the DOM.  
I wonder to whether Patrick was a good or bad guy.  Any one else have 
any ideas?






From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Thu Mar 25 05:13:38 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 05:13:38 -0000
Subject: Dark Mark visibility . . . (was: Snape and the Order)
In-Reply-To: <c3tb56+nqmj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3tpq2+3qhl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93903

snip of old posts 
> 
> Carol:
> There's an interesting moment in GoF that may be relevant here. When
> Crouch!Moody (whom Snape still thinks is the real Moody) says, "I 
say
> there are spots that don't come off, Snape. Spots that never come 
of,
> d'you know what I mean?" Snape "seize[s] his left arm convulsively
> with his right hand, as though something on it had hurt him." (GoF 
Am.
> ed. 472) Of course, this passage reads very differently on a second
> reading, when we know that Crouch!Moody is an imposter, but it
> indicates to me that Crouch knows that Snape is loyal to Dumbledore
> and therefore disloyal to Voldemort and that a loyal Death Eater can
> cause pain to a disloyal one just by mentioning the mark. I wonder
> what Snape thought of that incident, whether he reported it to
> Dumbledore, and what they thought it meant at that point. (Surely 
the
> real Moody speaking of the Dark Mark would not have caused Snape 
pain?
> Or would it? Were Snape's suspicions aroused, or did he just view
> "Moody" as a dangerous enemy even though they were technically on 
the
> same side? He certainly was angry that "Moody" had been in his 
office,
> dared to question his loyalty to Dumbledore, and tried to order him
> around, but all of that would fit with the real Moody, too.)
> 
Snip of Julie's post
> Carol:
>snip (A side note on Fudge: Does anyone besides me
> think Fudge, rather than Voldemort, sent Macnair as envoy to the
> giants at Malfoy's suggestion, not knowing that Macnair is a DE? I
> think Fudge is Malfoy's tool, not actually evil but ambitious,
> foolish, and, as Julie says, in denial. How convenient for Malfoy,
> trying to get back in LV's good graces after the Dark Mark incident,
> that Macnair happens to work for the MoM's magical creatures 
division.)
>   
Sue joins in on two points:

1. I always thought in this that Crouch!Moody understood the magic 
behind the Darkmark and how it works.  I figured Snape would assume 
that real!Moody would understand the magic, know his past and how to 
make it twinge.  I am sure no one else could summon the DEs anywhere, 
but they could probably make it sting.  Good way to check and see if 
someone is a DE, no?

2. Never thought about the possibility that Fudge sent Macnair to the 
giants, but I like it.  As they are working undercover, using Fudge 
to send a legitimate group to "spy" on the giants and any friend of 
DD who might be trying to reach them is a good ploy.  What will poor 
Malfoy do now that he has been "outed"?

Sue




From gbannister10 at aol.com  Thu Mar 25 07:54:23 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 07:54:23 -0000
Subject: Harry Teaching DADA
In-Reply-To: <c3ss2s+k5eg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3u37f+san3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93904

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sundancing10" 
<sundancing10 at y...> wrote:
> Don't know if this has been discussed yet (as I am relatively new 
to 
> the list):  Any thoughts on Dumbledore picking Harry as the next 
> DADA professor?  Certainly, he is very young, etc, but he would now 
> be 'of age' and he has certainly proven his teaching ability in the 
> DA.  Also, if the wizarding world is at war, not many would be 
> available to teach and it could lead to even greater tension 
between 
> Harry & Snape and Griffindors and Slytherins.  I don't really think 
> JKR would necessarily do it, but it has great potential.

Geoff:
This topic has surfaced at regular intervals. Although I haven't 
followed it through myself, the stock answer appears to be that JKR 
has intimated in an interview that Harry will not become a Hogwarts 
teacher - although the idea would delight me personally.




From gbannister10 at aol.com  Thu Mar 25 08:07:57 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 08:07:57 -0000
Subject: Horse Feathers
In-Reply-To: <c3tj3d+nen3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3u40t+2up9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93905

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" 
<justcarol67 at y...> wrote:
> Someone wrote:
> Why would Ollie think that the counterpart wand to the one that 
> killed  his parents and scarred him be just the wand for Harry? 
>  
> greatelderone responded:
> Because he was running out of wands. Remember. Testing out each 
wand 
> probably narrowed down the category for him until he decided to 
give 
> the phoenix wand a try. 
>  
> > Kneasy argued:
> > Not so. "....looked instead at the thousands of narrow boxes piled
> > neatly right  up  to  the ceiling."
> > Whereas "...the pile of tried wands was mounting higher and higher
> on the spindly chair." (PS chap.5) Still several thousand  to go, it
> seems.

Carol:
> Kneasy, I think you've missed a key word here: "category." I think
> greatelderone is suggesting that the wands Ollivander is handing to
> Harry represent certain types or categories that Ollivander is 
ruling
> out. I would agree that there is at least some sort of system being
> employed here and that Ollivander is not handing out wands randomly.
> We know, based on Ollivander's words in that same chapter, that some
> wands are particularly effective for Charms, others for
> Transfiguration. 

Geoff:
The analogy which came to my mind was that of having your eyes 
tested. The optician will carry out a series of tests which gradually 
home in on which prescription for glasses will best meet your needs 
out of all the thousands of permutations possible. Ollivander tries 
various types of wand and deduces from the tests which type of wand 
seems to be the one required.




From nkafkafi at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 25 08:33:43 2004
From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 08:33:43 -0000
Subject: Fields of Magic (was Re: Potions Master Question)
In-Reply-To: <c3tq6u+t6pr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3u5h7+9dnu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93906

> Carol:
> I don't agree with your assessment of Potions as less important than
> Transfiguration. Snape's words about being able to stopper death,
> etc., (paraphrasing here) suggest that it's very important in the 
WW,
> and if "obvious utility" is an argument for the utility of
> Transfiguration, surely it applies to Potions as well <snip of many 
good examples>

Neri:
Oops, I was apparently not very clear here. I certainly did not mean 
to say that Potions is not useful. It is extremely useful, as you 
show with your examples. I was talking about how distinguished is the 
area in the eyes of the WW. There are several factors that might make 
a field of magic more or less distinguished than others, and utility 
is only one of them. Some other factors are:

1. The strength of the theoretical basis. This is considered very 
important in science (and JKR's magic is modeled on science in many 
senses). Some areas of pure mathematics have no practical utility 
whatsoever, but are still considered important because of the strong 
theory. OTOH medicine, which is the most important science from 
practical considerations, doesn't have a very strong theoretical 
basis (which is why we have alternative medicine but not alternative 
physics or alternative mathematics). I suspect Potions is similar to 
medicine in this regard. That is, potion recipes are, much like 
cooking recipes, based on long experience more than pure theory. OTOH 
Transfiguration seems to have a strong theoretical basis, as 
suggested by those complex diagrams (the phases of an owl turning 
into opera glasses... or was it the other way around?).

2. Just plain show. Potions (and Herbology) require tedious manual 
work and not much impressive "wand waving". Charms, DADA and 
especially Transfiguration are very impressive to watch. I know this 
is superficial, but I'm not talking here about the actual importance 
of the field. I'm talking about how distinguished it is considered in 
the eyes of other wizards.

3. Power. Fields that require the wizard to be more powerful are 
likely to be more distinguished. It seems Potions and Herbology 
require very little power (in fact, I can't see why a muggle or a 
squib won't be able to brew many of these potions). OTOH 
Transfiguration seems to require a lot of magical power.

4. Tradition. Some fields are distinguished just because they were 
practiced for many years by famous and learned people. Potions seems 
to have rather humble origins (it is basically cooking). 
Transfiguration is traditionally considered the mark of the greatest 
wizards.

Back to utility, Potions is indeed very useful, but so is 
Transfiguration. You forgot to mention switching, vanishing and 
conjuring spells, which are all part of Transfiguration. Conjuring 
especially seems dead useful. I wonder what are its limitations. For 
example, could you just conjure a cup of polyjuice potion out of thin 
air instead of bothering to brew it? It hardly seems fair.

Regarding DADA, I think Potioncat was right in classifying it as a 
specialized area of Charms. It is, however, considerably more 
dangerous than standard Charms. It also has great practical 
importance, a lot of impressive wand waving, a celebrated tradition, 
and requires a lot of power. However, I suspect that the reputation 
of DADA is somewhat tarnished because, especially in the high level, 
the distinction between DADA and the Dark Arts is so very fine. 
Remember Slinkhard writing that anti-jinxes are just jinxes with a 
nicer name, and the aurors permitted to use the Unforgivables during 
VW-I (I wonder where did they learn them? Not in Hogwarts surely?). 

In addition to the above, we also have the clues I've already 
mentioned: The headmaster and his deputy were/are Transfiguration 
teachers, and Snape would much rather be the DADA teacher than the 
Potions Master. This is not conclusive canon, only my impression, but 
I think the order of status (again, not the order of actual 
importance, which is something else) is approximately:
Transfiguration > DADA > Charms > Potions and Herbology > other 
subjects.

Just an opinion (I thought shipping was the touchy subject:-)

Neri





From falkelihu at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 25 08:51:46 2004
From: falkelihu at yahoo.com (Elihu Falk)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 00:51:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: S is the letter of stealth and secrecy
Message-ID: <20040325085146.67281.qmail@web61103.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93907

In addition to the letters P and R, I believe the letter S has special meaning:
a)  Lupin's friends - Sirius, Scabbers and the stag(James Potter)
>From Harry's POV, James's ability to transform is irrelavent; so his "S" is only in the kind of animal, which was his only secret.
Wormtail was hidden as Scabbers, ready to murder Harry if LV were to come back to power, so his "S" is in the ratr name (Given by the Weasleys?)
Sirius was on the run, and the ministry knew this, so the "S" shows up in his name (also Snuffels!)
b)  Salazar Slytherin, who placed the Chamber of Secrets at Hogwarts.
c)  Severus Snape - a spy on the DEs.
d)  Harry's scar, possibly allowing him to spy on LV later on.
e)  Sybil Trelawny, who said the prophecy which was not supposed to be overheard (except for the beginning of it)
f)  Sturgis Podmore, who was forced to sneak into the department of mysteries to steal the prophecy.
g)  In the DA, there were 4 students with some initial which is S: Zacharias Smith, Alicia Spinnet, Susan Bones and Semus Finnigan.

>From all the above, it seems that the letter S has special meaning. Don't forget the solution to stealth - the Sneakoscope.

Elihu

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From delwynmarch at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 25 09:55:17 2004
From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 09:55:17 -0000
Subject: Sirius/Tonks
In-Reply-To: <c3tkjt+aeld@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3uaa5+dk09@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93908


I, Del, wrote :

> I've read the responses people gave to your post, and unless I 
> missed some, nobody asked the first and obvious question : how 
> would she know that ?
> And the consequent questions : would anyone else know it too 
> then ? 

Carol (justcarol67) answered :

> Dumbledore found out that Sirius was an animagus just after HRH 
> did, at the end of PoA. Voldemort presumably found out after Peter 
> found him in Albania. 

Del replies :

Oops ! I wasn't clear in my previous post. I was commenting on the 
theory that Bellatrix knew she wasn't fighting the true Sirius 
Black, but an Animagus in the shape of Sirius Black (Tonks). I was 
wondering how she could know that this Sirius wasn't the real 
Sirius, and whether anyone else would have noticed that too, in 
which case it would be very cruel not to tell Harry that it wasn't 
Sirius who was killed.

> > Del :
> <snip> 
> > I gave it some thought, and came up with quite a few reasons for 
> > Bellatrix to say "the Animagus Black".
> > 
> > 1. She was being redundant. It does happen. Or maybe Pippin (I 
> > think, sorry otherwise) is right, and it's all part of a 
> > specific speech pattern.
> 
> Carol:
> Erm, that was my post. :-)

(Del goes into hiding, her cheeks a brilliant shade of scarlet.)
I'm sorry Carol !!

Del 





From rtb333 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 25 11:56:01 2004
From: rtb333 at yahoo.com (rtb333)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 11:56:01 -0000
Subject: sirius as animagus - why didn't the deatheaters know pre OOP?
In-Reply-To: <c3tovf+9cmv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3uhch+4qnj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93909

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "suehpfan" <stanleys at s...> 
wrote:
> 
> Two points from me...
> 
> They were only a few years out of school and although the were 
doing 
> important work for the Order (they would not have had to defy Lord 
> Thingy "thrice" if they weren't) they were probably a little 
> concerned about telling DD about their transgressions in school.  
> They still did not know whom they could trust for sure either, they 
> even doubted each other. Obviously, they should have doubted each 
> other even more.
> 
> As a side note, the DE's knew about the Marauder's alter egos 
because 
> of Wormtail.  He no longer hid his ability and certainly would have 
> also shared the info about the others.  In the very beginning of 
> OotP, it was Malfoy who made the "dogging" comment.  Obviously 
Peter 
> wasted no time in sharing his information with all the DEs now that 
> he was officially one of them.

Enter Rob(Who has been watching this discussion hoping someone thinks 
like he does)

It is actually quite simple if you think about it.  Who knows that 
the Maurauders are anamagi?  Just the four.  If somehow the enemy 
knew that they were anamagi, it is apparent that one of the four is a 
spy.  This information was held back so that PP could keep his 
cover.  I think that it is that simple.  

Rob(Stepping back into the shadows)




From belijako at online.no  Thu Mar 25 12:15:00 2004
From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 12:15:00 -0000
Subject: Headless Podmore was: Has anyone noticed this?
In-Reply-To: <c3u0v4+4ujo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3uig4+hb23@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93910

Jenjar wrote:
<snip>Sturgis was killed before he was able to say anything about his 
experience in the DOM.  

Berit replies:

He was? I thought it was Bode who was killed (by a pot plant at St. 
Mungo's) and that Podmore was sent to Azkaban (still being alive).

Berit
http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Thu Mar 25 12:47:46 2004
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 12:47:46 -0000
Subject: The power LV knows not
In-Reply-To: <c3s8bm+hvgn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3ukdi+t2s6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93911

Del wrote:
> 
> Tom Riddle was a half-blood raised in a Muggle orphanage, who 
ended 
> up in Slytherin.
> 
> Is it possible that he never received any love from anyone ?
> 
> That would explain why Harry has a power that LV doesn't know : 
not 
> because Harry has exceptionally a lot of love, but simply because 
LV 
> never received any.
> 
> Am I completely crazy, or is it worth exposing my ideas supporting 
> this theory, and my suppositions about the future of the War ?

I think it is definitely worth exposing your ideas.

Like Melanie, I'm inclined myself to the view that Riddle did know 
love and decided, at some level, to reject it and, having rejected 
it, now cannot understand it.

The sort of scenario I envisage is that in some form love - whether 
from his mother or from Dumbledore or someone else - eventually 
required that he give up his anger and hatred for his father.  This 
he refused to do, and so he went down the path of Muggle-hating 
(because his father was a Muggle) and immortality seeking (because 
it emphasises the distinctness of wizards and psychologically 
reverses his mother's fate).

He is very careful in the graveyard scene to belittle his new 
dependence on his 'useful/useless' father, but of course in doing so 
he does draw attention to it.

David




From belijako at online.no  Thu Mar 25 12:50:41 2004
From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 12:50:41 -0000
Subject: Ron's queen and Harry's castle; life once again played out on the chessboard
Message-ID: <c3ukj1+sb10@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93912

OotP is steeming with small, funny and cherishable moments and one 
that I've always enjoyed is the conversation on the train back to 
London where Harry, Ron, Hermione and Ginny start talking about 
Ginny's boyfriends. Having read it innumerable times before, I just 
discovered a new dimension to the text:

Quote (Ginny has just told Ron she ditched Michael Corner):
"Ron looked highly delighted.
'Well, I' always though he was a bot of an idiot,' he said prodding 
his queen forward towards Harry's quivering castle. 'Good for you. 
Just choose someone - better - next time.'
He cast Harry an oddly furtive look as he said it.
'Well, I've chosen Dean Thomas, would you say he's better?' asked 
Ginny vaguely.
'WHAT?' shouted Ron, upending the chessboard..." (OotP p. 763 UK Ed)

The reader immediately gets Ron's message even though Harry might 
not: In Ron's eyes there is only one boy good enough for his little 
sister: Harry. The funny thing is that the text also has a more 
subtle message that backs up Ron's words and hints at his intentions. 
Look at what Ron is doing while he's asking Ginny to find someone 
better and at the same time casting Harry that furtive look: He is 
prodding *his queen* forward towards *Harry's castle*... Ron's move 
on the chessboard is mimicking his desire to match his sister with 
Harry: He is moving the queen forward, making Harry's 
castle "quiver". Who knows? Some time in the not so far future Ginny 
might make those walls come tumbling down... with or without the help 
of Ron.

But then; Ron's matchmaking plans are temporarily upended by Ginny's 
news that she is seeing Dean Thomas...

Berit
http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Thu Mar 25 13:02:57 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 13:02:57 -0000
Subject: Snape and the Order
In-Reply-To: <c3ttgn+nr5d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3ula1+irpl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93913

> Carol wrote:
> > > Unlike Potioncat, I think he became a teacher before 
Voldemort's fall (around September 1 rather than November 1 or so). 

> Debbie wrote:
> > I think canon strongly implies that Snape did not begin teaching 
at Hogwarts until *after* the events at Godric's Hollow.
 
x>snip a question from Carol< 
> Debbie answers:
> <snip> In the Shrieking 
> > Shack, Sirius was very surprised to discover that Snape was at 
> > Hogwarts, and only at that point did he learn that Snape was a 
> > teacher. 
 
> Carol wrote:
> Sirius was busy working with the Order and deciding whether to be
> Secret Keeper.  >snip<  So there's no reason why he
> would know whether Snape was there or not, and no particular reason
> why he would be following Snape's movements in any case.

Potioncat:
You know, before I joined this group I never had to change my mind 
about this and that and all the rest!

I began adding to this post, continuing in my agreement with Debbie 
that Snape began teaching after the year started.  I also used as 
canon Sirius' surprise that Snape is a teacher at Hogwarts.  But, 
Carol made a good point (as usual) that there was no reason for 
Sirius to know.  After all, how many young men in their 20's keep 
tabs on the faculty of their old school?  And we all believe that no 
one in the Order knew about Snape. So now I'm on the fence yet again.

I can accept something like this:  Some of the DE's are placed in the 
MoM.  So when an opening or two come up at Hogwarts, Snape suggests 
he apply as a way of keeping tabs on DD.  He's already working for 
DD, although LV doesn't know it.  This gives Snape protection 
(Hogwarts magic) and better access to DD.  Shortly after school 
starts LV makes his move and gets blasted and Snape continues at 
Hogwarts in anticipation of LV's eventual return.

I just realized that this sounds just like the double-agent theory, 
which I don't agree with, but I'm not sure how to explain the 
difference.

This is one of the many things I hope JKR clears up.  Although on the 
other hand, if she leaves some mystery we can all be discussing these 
books for years!!!!
Potioncat





From koo at uk.ibm.com  Thu Mar 25 13:11:16 2004
From: koo at uk.ibm.com (prongsnpadfoot)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 13:11:16 -0000
Subject: Hagrid's blunder or can any student by head boy/girl
Message-ID: <c3ulpk+ji8q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93914

Hi All,

While listening to PS again (uk version),just realised that Hagrid 
tells Harry that his mother and father where head boy/girl at 
Hogwarts in their time, sorry don't have the book to hand.

But in OOTP, we are told that Lupin, got the prefect's badge, not 
James or Sirius. 

This could explain why Harry though his father was prefect, and was 
relieved to find he wasn't.

So can any of the students be head boy/girl, or did Hagrid have his 
facts wrong?

Dan




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Thu Mar 25 13:24:58 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 13:24:58 -0000
Subject: Hagrid's blunder or can any student by head boy/girl
In-Reply-To: <c3ulpk+ji8q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3umja+r5c2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93915

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "prongsnpadfoot" <koo at u...>  
Dan wrote:
 
> So can any of the students be head boy/girl, or did Hagrid have his 
> facts wrong?
> 


Potioncat:
It appears that being a prefect isn't required to be a head boy/girl.
There have been lots of ideas as to why James was given 
headboy...academics, a secret nod to his bravery in saving Snape, a 
general change in behavior...who knows?

BTW, do we know who the Gryffindor girl prefect was for that year 
group?
Potioncat




From earendil_fr at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 25 07:47:25 2004
From: earendil_fr at yahoo.com (earendil_fr)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 07:47:25 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore's bad descisions?
In-Reply-To: <c3te81+in3v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3u2qd+r1gn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93916

Lynnette wrote:
> I still think it is odd that Professor Dumbledore saw fit to TAKE 
> Harry, disregarding James and Lily's descision to appoint Sirius as 
> Harry's guardian.  If Sirius had had Harry, he may not have gone 
> after Peter the rat and been framed.

Earendil:
I suppose Dumbledore's decision could be explained by the protection 
we learned Harry could have at Privet Drive, a protection he could 
have had nowhere else, not with Sirius or with Dumbledore himself.

I don't have the books with me and I can't check, but I think Sirius 
went after Peter immediately after finding out about the Potters 
deaths. He gave his motorcycle to Hagrid so he could take Harry away, 
this shows Sirius *knew* Harry was being taken away and wasn't 
opposed to it (maybe because he knew Harry would be safer at the 
Dursleys). In a way he gave his agreement as Harry's godfather.

And considering Sirius' temper, I think he would have gone after 
Peter with or without Harry.


Earendil.





From gbannister10 at aol.com  Thu Mar 25 13:31:41 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 13:31:41 -0000
Subject: Headless Podmore was: Has anyone noticed this?
In-Reply-To: <c3uig4+hb23@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3umvt+d77q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93917

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Berit Jakobsen" 
<belijako at o...> wrote:
> Jenjar wrote:
> <snip>Sturgis was killed before he was able to say anything about 
his 
> experience in the DOM.  

Geoff:
I must admit I hadn't noticed the Sir Patrick's name - I really must 
read every sentence carefully. Mark you, it's a tpical Jo Rowling 
ploy. One name is in Book 2, the other in Book 5, so we've forgotten 
our headless friend by then!

 
Berit:
> 
> He was? I thought it was Bode who was killed (by a pot plant at St. 
> Mungo's) and that Podmore was sent to Azkaban (still being alive).

Geoff:
You're quite right.

"TRESPASS AT MINISTRY

Sturgis Podmore, 38, of number two Laburnham Gardens, Clapham, has 
appeared in front of the Wizengamot charged with trespass and 
attempted robbery.......
...Podmore, who refused to speak in his own defence, was convicted on 
both charges and sentenced to six months in Azkaban."

(OOTP "Percy and Padfoot" p.258 UK edition)




From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 25 13:44:35 2004
From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 13:44:35 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c3tvg1+nika@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3uno3+6f3n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93918

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sienna291973" 
<jujupoet29 at h...> wrote:
> > I think Lupin is the most genuine character out of all
> > of them. 
> 
> I agree!  If you're looking for another Lupin fan, you've found 
> one.  He is one of my favourites. I think he's definitely worth a 
> thread all his own.  I think we also see how intensely affected he 
> is by Sirius' death in the immediate aftermath:
> 
> Lupin turned away from the archway as he spoke.  It sounded as 
> though every word was causing him pain.
> OoTP, pg 713

Me three. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that Lupin cares more 
about Harry than Sirius did. (IMCO, Sirius half-viewed Harry as 
another James) Also consider this: Lupin has been essentially cast 
out of wizarding society, one of his closest friends betrayed 
another of his closest friends and caused his murder, and framed yet 
another of his closest friends, and indirectly caused THIS friend to 
be murdered.

But he exhibits a quiet dignity, and even grace under pressure that 
was glared by its absence from other characters, especially in OotP.

Now, if something could be done about the homorphus charm...

-Joe in SoFla




From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 25 14:56:56 2004
From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (drjuliehoward)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 14:56:56 -0000
Subject: Sirius/Tonks
In-Reply-To: <c3uaa5+dk09@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3urvo+tjs6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93919

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Doriane" <delwynmarch at y...> 
wrote:
> 
> I, Del, wrote :
> 
> > I've read the responses people gave to your post, and unless I 
> > missed some, nobody asked the first and obvious question : how 
> > would she know that ?
> > And the consequent questions : would anyone else know it too 
> > then ? 
> 
> Carol (justcarol67) answered :
> 
> > Dumbledore found out that Sirius was an animagus just after HRH 
> > did, at the end of PoA. Voldemort presumably found out after 
Peter 
> > found him in Albania. 
> 
> Del replies :
> 
> Oops ! I wasn't clear in my previous post. I was commenting on the 
> theory that Bellatrix knew she wasn't fighting the true Sirius 
> Black, but an Animagus in the shape of Sirius Black (Tonks). I was 
> wondering how she could know that this Sirius wasn't the real 
> Sirius, and whether anyone else would have noticed that too, in 
> which case it would be very cruel not to tell Harry that it wasn't 
> Sirius who was killed.
> 
> > > Del :
> > <snip> 
> > > I gave it some thought, and came up with quite a few reasons 
for 
> > > Bellatrix to say "the Animagus Black".
> > > 
> > > 1. She was being redundant. It does happen. Or maybe Pippin (I 
> > > think, sorry otherwise) is right, and it's all part of a 
> > > specific speech pattern.
> > 
> > Carol:
> > Erm, that was my post. :-)
> 
> (Del goes into hiding, her cheeks a brilliant shade of scarlet.)
> I'm sorry Carol !!
> 
> Del

But Tonks is a metamorphmagus.  Why, then, the "Animagus" Black?




From Elvishooked at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 25 14:49:02 2004
From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 14:49:02 -0000
Subject: Dumbledores lack of surprise
Message-ID: <c3urgu+rilt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93920

PS p15 uk edition.
McGonagall: "..... but how in the name of heaven did Harry Survive?"
"We can only guess," said Dumbledore. We may never know."

PS p216 uk edition.
Harry: "Voldemort said he only killed my mother because she tried to 
stop him killing me. (snip) Why couldn't Quirrel touch me?"
Dumbledore (not hesitating before he answers): "Your mother died to 
save you. If there is one thing Voldemort cannot understand, it is 
love. He didn't realise that love as powerful as your mother's for 
you leaves its own mark. Not a scar, no visible sign... to have been 
loved so deeply, even though the person who loved us is gone, will 
give us some protection for ever (snip)."

So - until Harry tells him that Lily died to protect him, Dumbledore 
had no idea how Harry survived. He couldn't have known either - since 
he was not at Godrics Hollow that night.
What made me wonder is how quickly Dumbledore is to give Harry the 
answer about the 'Love Protection' Lily gave him.
Wouldn't someone like Dumbledore more likely have said: "Ooooh - so 
THAT is why - THAT's how you came out of that attack alive!"
But no  - he doesn't even stop to think before he tells Harry that 
this is the reason he survived - even though Dumbledore him self 
didn't know till then (according to his answer to McGonagall earlier) 
and probably has been wondering what on earth really happened that 
night at Godrics Hollow.
Maybe he knew all along and just lied to Minerva.... ?

Inge




From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Thu Mar 25 15:13:38 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 25 Mar 2004 16:13:38 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dating (Re: Horse Feathers)
Message-ID: <20040325151338.2C21E1EC8A7@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 93921

> Viridis:
> > The dating of HP books is always a problem. Is the Flamel's birtday 
> really sure? Because if was born ca. 1330, than everything is fine 
> (1296 is still *circa* 1330). 
> 
> Geoff:
> I don't quite see why 1296 comes into the equation.....
> 
> I had another browse and from various sources got Flamel's birth years of:
> 1330, around 1330, in the early fourteenth century and in the 16th 
> century(!!).

Terribly sorry - stupid mistake. I simply wanted to substract four years from your date (four years can be considered *circa* for somebody of 650 lifespan), but for mysterious reason did the maths for the year 1300 instead of 1330.

Read 1326 instead of 1296. 

An yes, I also think the books are self updating.

Cheers, Viridis (who probably was drinking Befuddlement Draught instead of the tea) 
________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!



From Elvishooked at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 25 15:33:54 2004
From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 15:33:54 -0000
Subject: Dumbledores lack of surprise + my point !
Message-ID: <c3uu52+gsu4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93922

Ah, so stupid of me ... I totally forgot to put my main point about 
Dumbledore's lack of surprise (knowledge) in my previous post.

To continue from where I left:

OOTP, p 737 uk edition.

Dumbledore: "But she (Petunia) took you", Dumbledore cut across 
him. "She may have taken you grudgingly, furiously, unwillingly, 
bitterly, yet still she took you, and in doing so, she sealed the 
charm I placed upon you. Your mother's sacrifice made the bond of 
blood the strongest shield I could give you."

Ok - so how DID Dumbledore know anything about Lily's sacrifice at 
that time? Harry was a little more than a year old and the only 
person to tell what had happened at his home that night. Not a chance.
Alas! Someone else must have been in the house to witness what 
happened and told Dumbledore that Lily actually gave her life for 
Harry. Who? 
And so, Dumbledore must have lied to Minerva when he told her that he 
didn't know how Harry had survived the attack.
Inge




From pt4ever at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 25 15:44:31 2004
From: pt4ever at yahoo.com (JoAnna)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 15:44:31 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore's bad descisions?
In-Reply-To: <c3u2qd+r1gn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3uuov+i1j2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93923

Earendil:
I suppose Dumbledore's decision could be explained by the protection
we learned Harry could have at Privet Drive, a protection he could
have had nowhere else, not with Sirius or with Dumbledore himself.

JoAnna:
I think it's fairly obvious why Dumbledore sent Hagrid to deliver 
Harry to the Dursleys.  

As far as Dumbledore knew, Sirius Black was the Potter's Secret-
Keeper.  The moment he heard that the Potters had been killed and 
the house destroyed, DD's first thought was, "Sirius Black is the 
spy; he betrayed the Potters to Voldemort."  Obviously, he wasn't 
going to let Sirius Black act as Harry's godfather and guardian if 
Sirius was in league with Voldemort, no matter what James & Lily had 
wanted.  So he put Harry in the Dursley's care instead.

- JoAnna





From pt4ever at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 25 15:52:12 2004
From: pt4ever at yahoo.com (JoAnna)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 15:52:12 -0000
Subject: Dumbledores lack of surprise + my point !
In-Reply-To: <c3uu52+gsu4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3uv7c+c873@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93924

Inge wrote:
> 
> Ok - so how DID Dumbledore know anything about Lily's sacrifice at 
> that time? Harry was a little more than a year old and the only 
> person to tell what had happened at his home that night. Not a 
chance.
> Alas! Someone else must have been in the house to witness what 
> happened and told Dumbledore that Lily actually gave her life for 
> Harry. Who? 
> And so, Dumbledore must have lied to Minerva when he told her that 
he 
> didn't know how Harry had survived the attack.

I think that someone did either witness or overhear Voldemort's 
confrontation with Lily, who then reported it to Dumbledore.  My 
guess is that Peter Pettigrew accompanied LV to the Potters that 
night, witnessed what happened, and fled when the curse rebounded 
onto LV.  Perhaps he saw Dumbledore shortly after and told him a 
different version of what had happened in order to throw suspicion 
off of him and onto Sirius.  I guess he told DD that Sirius had 
shown up at the Potters with LV, and all that had happened 
thereafter.  Then, later, when Sirius was about to confront 
Pettigrew, Pettigrew put his "escape plan" into action to further 
throw suspicion on Sirius and enabling him to make his escape.

As for what Dumbledore told McGonagall - my guess is that Dumbledore 
merely had a hunch or a guess about what had saved Harry, no 
concrete answers, and he didn't want to give McGonagall any 
information that might not be right until he had tested his theory. 
No doubt his guess wasn't confirmed until Petunia read the letter 
that DD left with Harry and accepted Harry into her home, sealing 
the charm and proving DD's hypothesis correct.

- JoAnna




From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Thu Mar 25 16:00:19 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 16:00:19 -0000
Subject: Horse Feathers
In-Reply-To: <c3tj3d+nen3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3uvmj+s29a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93925

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67 at y...> wrote:
> Carol chimes in:
> Kneasy, I think you've missed a key word here: "category." I think
> greatelderone is suggesting that the wands Ollivander is handing to
> Harry represent certain types or categories that Ollivander is ruling
> out. I would agree that there is at least some sort of system being
> employed here and that Ollivander is not handing out wands randomly.
> We know, based on Ollivander's words in that same chapter, that some
> wands are particularly effective for Charms, others for
> Transfiguration. We also know that some wands are more powerful than
> others. James's is a little more powerful than Lily's but Voldemort's
> is much more powerful than either.
>

Kneasy:
No, I  didn't miss the word, I do manage to read English quite well on 
occasion.

While wands do seem to fall into broad groups that lean towards certain 
types of magic, charms, transfiguration and the like, that does not preclude
them from being used for other purposes. That, as has been pointed out,
depends on the strength of the wizard. To theorise that Ollivander can 
devine an 11 year old's future magical skills and career with an albeit 
magical tape-measure seems to be stretching it too far IMO. 

The fact that Ollivander mentions the type of magic favoured by Harry's
parents wands could well be a JKR hint. So far as I have been able to 
determine at no other time does Ollivander mention what a wand is 
most suited for; not Hagrid's, not Fleur's, not Cedric's, not Krum's, not
Voldy's and most definitely not Harry's. Why not if it's an in-built and
easily identifiable wand characteristic and indication of magical ability?
Just what is Harry's wand good at?

DD wants Harry to be equal in power but to make different choices.
Or perhaps we're  reading too much between the lines. Certainly
he wants him to make different choices and he is making  certain 
he learns useful skills. But power? Harry is more advanced than
most students in some areas, producing a Patronus, for example. 
In other magic he's way behind Hermione. Up to now his magical 
power doesn't seem inordinate, even with the wand. 

Tom Riddle was a brilliant student by all accounts, the Hermione
of his day. Is Harry at that standard? He's good, but he's not
classed as brilliant. Additionally, Voldy has years of travel and
study behind him. Do  you really  think  that Harry can equal that 
in another two years at Hogwarts? I don't. In a straight contest of
magic Voldy wins hands down. Not just against Harry, but anyone
except DD - who has 150 years of magic behind him. So he needs 
help and a conflicting wand is a *big* help. Maybe the wand's 
strength is a negative one so far as Harry is concerned - it nullifies
Voldy's attacks. Since Voldy is determined to nail Harry, DD couldn't
do better than make sure such a wand ended up in Harry's hands. 

The magical skills that Harry is being coached in seem to be purely
defensive. Patronus, Occlumancy, DADA in general. He is not being
set up to defeat Voldy with attacking spell power; victory (if it 
happens at all) will come some other way. I may be wrong but I fancy
that possession will feature in it, but he  still needs to keep Voldy 
from destroying him -  and the wand can do it. 

carol67 
> I suggest that when Ollivander "measures" a student with his magical
> tape measure, he's not concerned with the length of his arm or the
> distance between his nostrils. The tape measure is sensing the magical
> composition (for lack of a better word) of the student--his latent
> skills and talents, and his potential power. So when he encountered
> young Tom Riddle, what he sensed was primarily power, perhaps with
> some strong Slytherinish tendencies mixed in, so he *knew* (possibly
> after some preliminary testing as in Harry's case) that this very
> powerful wand, the most powerful in his shop, was the right one for
> this young wizard. The decision would have been confirmed, of course,
> when Tom swished the wand through the air and produced what I presume
> were green and silver sparks. That does not make Ollivander evil, nor
> does it assume that Tom, age eleven, was already evil. Ollivander,
> after all, states that he didn't know what that wand was going out
> into the world to do, and Tom had not yet made the choices that would
> make him irredeemably evil.


Kneasy:
What you are suggesting is that Ollivander performs the same function
as the Sorting Hat - "Oh, Slytherinish - must give him one of this sort; 
Potter- must have a powerful wand." OK, that's an exaggeration, but
the passage above reads more like Fan Fiction than canon based 
suppositions. Nowhere does Ollivander say that the wands that
Harry and Voldy have are particularly powerful. What he does imply 
is that if this wand suits Harry, then he expects great things of him
because its counterpart belonged to Voldy and *Voldy* is powerful. 
It may well have power, but power comes in  different guises and the 
fact that Ollivander equates Harry with Voldy is an uncomfortable 
thought. "We must expect great things from you, Mr Potter....After all,
HWMNBN did great things - terrible, yes, but great." It goes along with
the Prophecy "...mark him as his equal". 
Equal does not mean opposite. It means the same. 
But in what respect?



 





From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Thu Mar 25 16:10:43 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 25 Mar 2004 17:10:43 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron's queen and Harry's castle; life once again played out on the chessboard
Message-ID: <20040325161043.76E8D1EC7DB@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 93926

> Berit:
> Look at what Ron is doing while he's asking Ginny to find someone 
> better and at the same time casting Harry that furtive look: He is 
> prodding *his queen* forward towards *Harry's castle*... Ron's move 
> on the chessboard is mimicking his desire to match his sister with 
> Harry: He is moving the queen forward, making Harry's 
> castle "quiver". Who knows? Some time in the not so far future Ginny 
> might make those walls come tumbling down... with or without the help 
> of Ron.
> 
> But then; Ron's matchmaking plans are temporarily upended by Ginny's 
> news that she is seeing Dean Thomas...

Ron as a matchmaker can definitely serve as a comic relief - I like the guy, but his matchmaking is a certified disaster, IMHO.
Interpreting the scene I'd rather stay at the "eye-level". Of ourse it can be argued that JKR chose the word castle for this very particular reason. However the same piece is often called "rook" or "elephant" (in old sets). Now Ron pushing Ginny towards Harry's rook may give strange image to ones mind.

Cheers, Viridis
________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!



From stevejjen at earthlink.net  Thu Mar 25 16:11:41 2004
From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 16:11:41 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c3uno3+6f3n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3v0bt+bki8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93927

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jmgarciaiii" 
<jmgarciaiii at y...> wrote:
> Me three. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that Lupin cares more 
> about Harry than Sirius did. (IMCO, Sirius half-viewed Harry as 
> another James) Also consider this: Lupin has been essentially cast 
> out of wizarding society, one of his closest friends betrayed 
> another of his closest friends and caused his murder, and framed 
yet 
> another of his closest friends, and indirectly caused THIS friend 
to 
> be murdered.
> 
> But he exhibits a quiet dignity, and even grace under pressure 
that 
> was glared by its absence from other characters, especially in 
OotP.
> 
> Now, if something could be done about the homorphus charm...


Jen: I've always loved Lupin and the calm, thoughtful manner he 
approaches the children, conflict, etc. Find fault with his lapses 
in judgment if you will, but I'd argue he's been a better protector 
of the children than any other adult (i.e., Dementors, Shrieking 
Shack, Dept. of Mysteries).

And he's no slouch in the Magic department, either. 

There's much more to Lupin than what we've seen so far, and
it's not because he's Evil! In fact, there's something so inherently
good and powerful about him that IMO we will see great things from
him in the next two books.

What was he doing all those years Sirius was in Azkaban and Peter
was a rat? Studying, practicing, perfecting...He's been such the
background character so far and that makes me suspicious. He can
cast a Patronus even though it's incredibly advanced magic; he is
able to teach difficult skills; he's chosen to be in the Order,
teach at Hogwarts, & is part of the Advance Guard.

I used to think Lupin was a Dumbledore charity case, but actually DD
chooses people for their abilities, esp. abilities that aren't
mainstream. Hagrid is certainly an asset to have around, what with
his stun-proof skin and knowledge of magical creatures. And Lupin,
the shunned werewolf, could easily drop out of sight to master 
advanced magical skills for a war DD knows is coming.

No energy is wasted if you work with Dumbledore--he knows a person's
strengths and weaknesses and encourages individuals to work in areas
where they will shine.

Jen, part of the Lupin fan club :)




From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 25 16:13:55 2004
From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 16:13:55 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c3uno3+6f3n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3v0g3+npl6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93928


> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sienna291973" 
> <jujupoet29 at h...> wrote:
> > > I think Lupin is the most genuine character out of all
> > > of them. 
> > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jmgarciaiii" 
<jmgarciaiii at y...> wrote:
> > I agree!  If you're looking for another Lupin fan, you've found 
> > one.  <snip>
> Me three. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that Lupin cares more 
> about Harry than Sirius did. (<Snip)> -Joe in SoFla

Dittos. I like tragic characters, and I think Lupin qualifies. The 
description of his grief in the MoM while continueing to protect HP 
is heart-wrenching. That made me cry more than merely losing Sirius, 
about which I was pretty broken up. 

Assuming he's not actually ESE!Lupin, of course. Then he's the best 
undercover mole, ever. Of course, the HP saga is complex enough that 
he could be both. 

TK -- Tigerpatronus






From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 25 16:18:15 2004
From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 16:18:15 -0000
Subject: MarioMort and the *real* villian, who is still out there
In-Reply-To: <c3tk1i+anm6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3v0o7+iskl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93929


> Tigerpatronus wrote:
> 
> <<<Here's a quick recap and some more terrible thoughts to chew on
> before JKR finishes Book 6. (I can't *believe* she's still writing 
>the first draft, <snip.>>>>

> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "JoAnna" <pt4ever at y...> wrote:
> In JKR's defense, she has a LOT going on in her life.  <snip> 
> - JoAnna

I know she's busy with all that. And we must be sensitive because 
women (like me) also have to "work the second shift" (home and kids) 
with a lot more time expended than men generally do (just a 
generalization, no offense to the hard-working, EE dads out there.) 

I just want the book, darn it! And the one after that!

TK -- TigerPatronus





From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Thu Mar 25 16:22:32 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 16:22:32 -0000
Subject: Brother wands [was: Re: Horse Feathers]
In-Reply-To: <c3p59v+p98b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3v108+8h45@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93930

Kneasy:
> Why  would Ollie think that the counterpart wand to the one that 
> killed his parents and scarred him be just the wand for Harry? The 
> more likely thought would be that it would be animical towards 
> Harry, or that Harry would recoil from it. Sort of magical antigen-
> antibody reaction.  

Susan:
I'm woefully behind in posts, so it may be that nobody gives a diddly-
darn about this topic right now, but I did try to read down the 
thread and didn't see the following issue addressed.  So here I go.

I think assuming that Harry would recoil would make sense if the wand 
were *identical* to Tom's/Voldy's, but it is NOT.  Presumably, it's 
not just the phoenix core which gives the wand its properties 
& "identity"--heck, if there are only 3 magical substances used as 
cores, then the core itself can't be the only key to the wand.  I 
think that the WOOD'S properties are equally or even more important 
in determining that.  There is certainly more variation in types of 
wood used, plus length of wood, etc.  Surely it's the combination of 
core & wood which make the wand unique?  

The fact that Fawkes provided the feather for both Tom's/Voldy's & 
Harry's *does* make them "brother" wands, but perhaps the other 
aspects of the wands are well suited to the **differences** between 
Tom/Voldy and Harry.

Kneasy:
> DD  knows Voldy is Tom Riddle; Ollivander knows every wand he's 
> sold. Put the two together and a wand with certain protective 
> properties can  be contructed, ready and waiting when Harry comes 
> into the shop.
> All the rest is stage dressing.

Susan:
I think  this is possible, Kneasy.  Or, as someone else postulated, 
perhaps Ollivander has gifts such that he *might* be acting sort of 
as The Sorting Hat of the Wand World.  Or, as another theorized, 
perhaps after Ollivander sizes up his client to a certain degree--
skills, talents, family background/*history*,... then the wands which 
would be potentially suitable are allowed to "choose" the wizard from 
there.  Or, of course, if we believe in fate, the prophecy, that kind 
of thing, then that wand "knew" it was destined for Harry all along.  
I think *you're* arguing that DD set it up; others might argue 
that "destiny" set it up?  

Many possibilities exist here, I would think.

Siriusly Snapey Susan...who is trying desperately to catch up on 200 
posts [busy campaigning for school board, don't you know] and hopes 
she hasn't stepped on toes w/ this one.






From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 25 16:36:42 2004
From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 16:36:42 -0000
Subject: JKR's cats (was: Ginny's animagus)
In-Reply-To: <20040324093820.450C630E515@front.interia.pl>
Message-ID: <c3v1qq+aoq9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93931

> > Laura:> > You know, this ties into something I've never 
understood.  JKR *hates* > > cats. [...]<snip> [however,] JKR 
portrays cats as intelligent, sensitive to magic, and the > > natural 
companions of witches and wizards.  

> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, bufo_viridis at i... wrote:
> Viridis:
> I'm not sure if she *hates* the cats or rather she dislikes them, 
because (and that's a fact she admitted herself) she is allergic 
<snip>
> 1. In spite of her allergies JKR is a sensible person. And every 
>sensible person (some biased dog-overs excluded) knows that cats 
>*are indeed* intelligent, sensitive (not only to magic), 
>commuicative and generally superior creatures. So their positive 
>description is nothing but true.

Now TigerPatronus: It seems to me that a reflexive, unreasoning 
hatred of an entire species of creature is the sign of extreme 
immaturity and possibly an evil nature. Being allergic to something 
makes one avoid it, but that doesn't lead to hatred. For example, 
cigarette smoke makes my lungs clamp closed (asthma), but I don't 
*hate* smoking or smokers. Some of my friends smoke, and I sit 
outside with them, albeit upwind. (As an unrepentant coffee drinker, 
I understand addiction. A lot. Even reveling in addiction. Chocolate, 
too.) Most good writers, JKR included, are more mature than to allow 
their own unreasoning hatreds (or affinities) to influence what their 
characters do. The characters are primary. Some of her characters, 
such as Hermione and Mrs. Figg, like cats. You've got to let the 
characters do what they're going to do anyway. 

<snip> Cheers, Viridis 
> P.S> I admit there are several non-complimentary feline-origin 
terms for women. Work of dog-loving fifth columnists, undoubtedly :)

TP: Of course, there is one particular derogatory term for women that 
is dog-related, not cat-related. So I suppose that's equal 
opportunity. 

TK -- TigerPatronus






From stevejjen at earthlink.net  Thu Mar 25 16:36:26 2004
From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 16:36:26 -0000
Subject: Dumbledores lack of surprise + my point !
In-Reply-To: <c3uv7c+c873@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3v1qa+977a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93932

> Inge wrote:
> > 
> > Ok - so how DID Dumbledore know anything about Lily's sacrifice 
at 
> > that time? Harry was a little more than a year old and the only 
> > person to tell what had happened at his home that night. Not a 
> chance.
> > Alas! Someone else must have been in the house to witness what 
> > happened and told Dumbledore that Lily actually gave her life 
for 
> > Harry. Who? 

Joanna:
> I think that someone did either witness or overhear Voldemort's 
> confrontation with Lily, who then reported it to Dumbledore.  My 
> guess is that Peter Pettigrew accompanied LV to the Potters that 
> night, witnessed what happened, and fled when the curse rebounded 
> onto LV.  Perhaps he saw Dumbledore shortly after and told him a 
> different version of what had happened in order to throw suspicion 
> off of him and onto Sirius.  I guess he told DD that Sirius had 
> shown up at the Potters with LV, and all that had happened 
> thereafter.  


Jen: This is the most fascinating part of the series to me--all the 
theories about Godric's Hollow and the missing hours. It's a good 
bet that either Peter was at Godric's Hollow with LV, or Snape was 
there (or both, why not have a crowd?!?).

Here's a link to a TBAY from grannybat that proposes Snape and 
Hagrid were involved in protecting Harry as well, by a potion 
involving Dragon's Blood:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/83354

Perhaps when DD tells Minerva in PS/SS that "we can only guess" why 
Harry didn't die and LV was reduced to vapor, what he meant was 
there were several possibilities and they didn't know which one, or 
if the interaction of two or more, actually saved Harry? Later, he 
learns of Lily's sacrifice from Snape, and believes she is the one 
who saved Harry.

Jen, speculating with wild abandon ;)






From delwynmarch at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 25 16:43:23 2004
From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 16:43:23 -0000
Subject: Sirius/Tonks
In-Reply-To: <c3urvo+tjs6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3v27b+8uuu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93933

drjuliehoward wrote:

> But Tonks is a metamorphmagus.  Why, then, the "Animagus" Black?

Del :

This has been discussed before. You'll have to go back to the 
original message (93618) (which wasn't one of mine by the way), or 
keep clicking "Up thread", and start from there.

And in one of my other messages, I explained that maybe she 
used "Animagus" as a general term for "shape-shifter", but that's 
not the original poster's idea.

Del




From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Thu Mar 25 16:25:34 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 25 Mar 2004 17:25:34 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Horse Feathers
Message-ID: <20040325162534.D9CDB1EC7DB@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 93934

Kneasy:
> DD wants Harry to be equal in power but to make different choices.
[big snip] Since Voldy is determined to nail Harry, DD couldn't
> do better than make sure such a wand ended up in Harry's hands. 

Viridis:
Actually there can be a way DD helps Harry acquire the wand without being the Puppetmaster!Dumble. Namely when he learnt that, somehow, Fawkes single wand-feather ended in the wand of Thingy, he could persuade Fawkes to donate another feather (or catch him sleeping and pull strong ;-)) and send it to Ollivander.
It could have happened either before or after Thingy's attack on Potters.
Afterwards the wand was left to its fate - to find Harry or better person (e.g. Neville). 

Cheers, Viridis
________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!



From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu  Thu Mar 25 16:16:27 2004
From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 16:16:27 -0000
Subject: Ron's queen and Harry's castle;
In-Reply-To: <c3ukj1+sb10@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3v0kr+4esb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93935

 "Berit Jakobsen" <belijako at o...> wrote:
SNIP> 
> Quote (Ginny has just told Ron she ditched Michael Corner):
> "Ron looked highly delighted.
> 'Well, I' always though he was a bot of an idiot,' he said prodding 
> his queen forward towards Harry's quivering castle. 'Good for you. 
> Just choose someone - better - next time.'
> He cast Harry an oddly furtive look as he said it.
> 'Well, I've chosen Dean Thomas, would you say he's better?' asked 
> Ginny vaguely.
> 'WHAT?' shouted Ron, upending the chessboard..." (OotP p. 763 UK Ed)
SNIP
> Look at what Ron is doing while he's asking Ginny to find someone 
> better and at the same time casting Harry that furtive look: He is 
> prodding *his queen* forward towards *Harry's castle*... Ron's move 
> on the chessboard is mimicking his desire to match his sister with 
> Harry: He is moving the queen forward, making Harry's 
> castle "quiver". Who knows? Some time in the not so far future > 
Ginny might make those walls come tumbling down... with or without 
the help of Ron.
>SNIP
--------

There's been some dicussion on another site that pointed that 
Ron's "queen" might actually imply the female he would [hope to] pair 
himself with (Hermione). After all, if 'Weasley is the king', then 
the one he's bound to/paired with would be his 'queen'.  

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheGreatDebate

Search for "castle" or such to find the post threads.  

Arya





From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 25 16:32:34 2004
From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 16:32:34 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c3v0bt+bki8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3v1j2+jtp3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93936

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" <stevejjen at e...> 
wrote:

> No energy is wasted if you work with Dumbledore--he knows a 
person's
> strengths and weaknesses and encourages individuals to work in 
areas
> where they will shine.

I agree, now I just hope someone will get the encouragement needed 
to master the homorphus charm that Lockhart said he effected. 
(Whether this was a Lockhart fib or whether some other person did it 
and Lockhart took credit for it, remains to be seen.)

-Joe in SoFla




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Thu Mar 25 17:01:14 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 17:01:14 -0000
Subject: Fields of Magic (was Re: Potions Master Question)
In-Reply-To: <c3u5h7+9dnu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3v38q+1jro@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93937

>>> severe snipping of Carol's and Neri's posts, with regrets<<<<

 Neri wrote: 
> 3. Power. Fields that require the wizard to be more powerful are 
> likely to be more distinguished. It seems Potions and Herbology 
> require very little power (in fact, I can't see why a muggle or a 
> squib won't be able to brew many of these potions). OTOH 
> Transfiguration seems to require a lot of magical power.

Potioncat:
I think you've made a common mistake here.  If power wasn't 
important Lupin could make his own wolfsbane potion, and the course 
would be easier to learn. (I'm not saying he isn't powerful in other 
areas of magic.)  Just because there is no wand waving or 
incantations doesn't mean there is no power.  I think a Muggle could 
follow the directions and get no more than a disgusting mess.


Neri: 
> 4. Tradition. Some fields are distinguished just because they were 
> practiced for many years by famous and learned people. Potions 
seems  to have rather humble origins (it is basically cooking). 
> Transfiguration is traditionally considered the mark of the 
greatest wizards.

Potioncat:
Which tradition?  DD is listed as being great for three things and 
none of them were transfigurations. (Wizard cards as mentioned in 
original post of this thread.) 
 
>>more snipping<<

Neri: 
> In addition to the above, we also have the clues I've already 
> mentioned: The headmaster and his deputy were/are Transfiguration 
> teachers, and Snape would much rather be the DADA teacher than the 
> Potions Master. This is not conclusive canon, only my impression, 
but 
> I think the order of status (again, not the order of actual 
> importance, which is something else) is approximately:
> Transfiguration > DADA > Charms > Potions and Herbology > other 
> subjects.
> 
> Just an opinion (I thought shipping was the touchy subject:-)

Potioncat:
Currently the staff with the most status are the Deputy Headmistress 
and the Potions Master.  The Potions Master seems to have more clout 
than either Charms (who has more tenure) and Herbology (I think we 
know she is older, but I don't recall the canon source)

I don't think it was McGonagall's years of teaching transfigurations 
that earned her the position of deputy, but rather her own power as 
a witch and her associated skills.


Shipping? I wouldn't dare go there! :-)

Neri, I've had a lot of fun responding to these ideas. Actually I 
spent a lot of time this morning replying to each of the points in 
this post.  However, I seem to have some sort of dark critter in my 
computer and my well written, well thought out post vanished! 
Unfortunatly I don't have the time to regenerate it (OK, everyone, 
stop cheering!) but I have found this thread very thought provoking!

Does anyone have some extra doxie spray?

Potioncat





From kking0731 at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 25 17:53:31 2004
From: kking0731 at hotmail.com (Kathy King)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 12:53:31 -0500
Subject: Sirius/Tonks
Message-ID: <Sea2-F30Wl00t4Vx70q0001ff83@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93938




ADVERTISEMENT


drjuliehoward wrote:

>But Tonks is a metamorphmagus. Why, then, the "Animagus" Black?

Del replied:

This has been discussed before. You'll have to go back to the
original message (93618) (which wasn't one of mine by the way), or
keep clicking "Up thread", and start from there.

And in one of my other messages, I explained that maybe she
used "Animagus" as a general term for "shape-shifter", but that's
not the original poster's idea.

Kathy's comment:
The original post was mine and I wish I would have used "shape-shifter" so 
as not to confuse people the way I had in thinking that I meant that Tonks 
was also an animagus. I just meant that as a metamorphmagus Tonks may have 
the ability to take on any appearance she wants at will, including looking 
like Sirius. OoP pg. 52 said that Tonks got top marks in Concealment and 
Disguise...IMO this left it wide open to her possible capabilities as far as 
what she could change herself into. Tonks quotes (same page) "I'm a 
Metamorphmagus...It means I can change my appearance at will." To what 
extent we are not told.

Also, when Bella refers to fighting the Animagus Black, I meant that she may 
have used the term "Animagus" loosly as to mean in some other form that 
appeared to be Sirius.




Kathy-who hopes I am a little clearer on what I originally meant.

_________________________________________________________________
Check out MSN PC Safety & Security to help ensure your PC is protected and 
safe. http://specials.msn.com/msn/security.asp




From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Thu Mar 25 18:04:56 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 18:04:56 -0000
Subject: Hagrid's blunder or can any student by head boy/girl
In-Reply-To: <c3umja+r5c2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3v708+aedr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93939

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at m...> 
wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "prongsnpadfoot" <koo at u...>  
> Dan wrote:
>  
> > So can any of the students be head boy/girl, or did Hagrid have 
his 
> > facts wrong?
> > 
> 
> 
> Potioncat:
> It appears that being a prefect isn't required to be a head 
boy/girl.
> There have been lots of ideas as to why James was given 
> headboy...academics, a secret nod to his bravery in saving Snape, a 
> general change in behavior...who knows?
> 
> BTW, do we know who the Gryffindor girl prefect was for that year 
> group?
> Potioncat

We do not have canon for the girl prefect, but my guess would be 
Lilly.  She is the one who tries to stop the Marauders in the 
pensieve and she seemed to feel full authority to do so.  Hermione 
anyone?

Sue




From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Thu Mar 25 18:10:39 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 18:10:39 -0000
Subject: Dumbledores lack of surprise
In-Reply-To: <c3urgu+rilt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3v7av+j54r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93940

Snip of previous post
> So - until Harry tells him that Lily died to protect him, 
Dumbledore 
> had no idea how Harry survived. He couldn't have known either - 
since 
> he was not at Godrics Hollow that night.
> What made me wonder is how quickly Dumbledore is to give Harry the 
> answer about the 'Love Protection' Lily gave him.
> Wouldn't someone like Dumbledore more likely have said: "Ooooh - so 
> THAT is why - THAT's how you came out of that attack alive!"
> But no  - he doesn't even stop to think before he tells Harry that 
> this is the reason he survived - even though Dumbledore him self 
> didn't know till then (according to his answer to McGonagall 
earlier) 
> and probably has been wondering what on earth really happened that 
> night at Godrics Hollow.
> Maybe he knew all along and just lied to Minerva.... ?
> 
> Inge

DD had 11 years to stew on the reason by the time Harry asked.  He 
must have suspected from the beginning but he couldn't be sure.  I 
don't think he lied to McGonagall, I think it is more likely he gave 
the almost 12 year old Harry the simplest answer he could and that 
the real answer of Harry's survival in GH is way more complex than 
just his mother's sacrafice.

My 2 knuts...
Sue




From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Thu Mar 25 18:18:57 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 18:18:57 -0000
Subject: Brother wands [was: Re: Horse Feathers] &The School Board
In-Reply-To: <c3v108+8h45@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3v7qh+q581@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93941

Hi Susan!

This has been a VERY busy site this month!  I have had trouble 
keeping up as well.  I really wanted to wish you good luck with the 
School Board....How honorable of you!

Sue 
> Siriusly Snapey Susan...who is trying desperately to catch up on 
200 
> posts [busy campaigning for school board, don't you know] and hopes 
> she hasn't stepped on toes w/ this one.




From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Thu Mar 25 18:30:23 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 18:30:23 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c3v0g3+npl6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3v8fv+ha7f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93942

Snip of Lupin posts 
> Dittos. I like tragic characters, and I think Lupin qualifies. The 
> description of his grief in the MoM while continueing to protect HP 
> is heart-wrenching. That made me cry more than merely losing 
Sirius, 
> about which I was pretty broken up. 
> 
> Assuming he's not actually ESE!Lupin, of course. Then he's the best 
> undercover mole, ever. Of course, the HP saga is complex enough 
that 
> he could be both. 
> 
> TK -- Tigerpatronus

I just can't see ESE!Lupin.  I do wonder what he is up to for the 
Order.  He is gone for long periods of time and certainly not at the 
MoM watching the door.  We definitely don't have his whole story. 
I've always loved the comment in OotP "If anyone's going to talk to 
Snape it will be me."  Wonder why?  

Sue, who appologizes for the previous post meant for Susan's email.  
Seems I have some dark critter in my computer as well since it is the 
second time it has happened.  Pass the Doxy spray to me next!




From tipgardner at netscape.net  Thu Mar 25 18:32:28 2004
From: tipgardner at netscape.net (tipgardner)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 18:32:28 -0000
Subject: The power LV knows not
In-Reply-To: <c3ukdi+t2s6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3v8js+oqff@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93943

"davewitley" wrote:
> Like Melanie, I'm inclined myself to the view that Riddle did know 
> love and decided, at some level, to reject it and, having rejected 
> it, now cannot understand it.

I don't see real textual evidence for this.  Also, to reject 
something, doesn't a person of LV's intelligence usually understand 
it first?  What if it were useful to him?

> The sort of scenario I envisage is that in some form love - whether 
> from his mother or from Dumbledore or someone else - eventually 
> required that he give up his anger and hatred for his father.  This 
> he refused to do, and so he went down the path of Muggle-hating 
> (because his father was a Muggle) and immortality seeking (because 
> it emphasises the distinctness of wizards and psychologically 
> reverses his mother's fate).

I like the muggle hating based on his hatred of his father.  However, 
I don't see Dumbledore having offered love to Tom Riddle.  In their 
only interaction in CoS, we see Dumbledore being wary of Tom but 
being unable to prove anything.  Harly a loving act, though perhaps a 
respectful and mentoring act.

Tip
Ceck out my journal: http://www.livejornal.com/users/tipgardner
check out my story: http://www.schnoogle.com





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Thu Mar 25 18:37:06 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 18:37:06 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c3v8fv+ha7f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3v8si+5185@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93944

>snipping posts like a good little witch<

Sue wrote:
> I just can't see ESE!Lupin.  I do wonder what he is up to for the 
> Order.  He is gone for long periods of time and certainly not at 
the 
> MoM watching the door.  We definitely don't have his whole story. 
> I've always loved the comment in OotP "If anyone's going to talk 
to 
> Snape it will be me."  Wonder why?  
> 

Potioncat:
Thank you for bringing that up.  I've been wondering about 2 
things.  Why should it be Lupin who talks to Snape, rather than 
Sirius?  And, did he ever talk to Snape?  For the all the insistance 
that occlumency is important, there didn't appear to be any follow 
up.
Potioncat




From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 25 19:04:52 2004
From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (drjuliehoward)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 19:04:52 -0000
Subject: Metamorphmagi
In-Reply-To: <Sea2-F30Wl00t4Vx70q0001ff83@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <c3vagk+1umc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93945

<snip> Del replied:
> 
> This has been discussed before. You'll have to go back to the
> original message (93618) (which wasn't one of mine by the way), or
> keep clicking "Up thread", and start from there.
> 
> And in one of my other messages, I explained that maybe she
> used "Animagus" as a general term for "shape-shifter", but that's
> not the original poster's idea.
> 
> Kathy's comment:
> The original post was mine and I wish I would have used "shape-
shifter" so 
> as not to confuse people the way I had in thinking that I meant 
that Tonks 
> was also an animagus. I just meant that as a metamorphmagus Tonks 
may have 
> the ability to take on any appearance she wants at will
<snip> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kathy-who hopes I am a little clearer on what I originally meant.
> 
>
Julie again:

Actually, I had been following the posts (Sirius/Tonks), and that 
question still remains unanswered, mainly IMO because JKR would have 
to answer it.  

I do have a question about metamorphmagi.  I know Tonks can change 
her appearance...nose, hair, etc.  My question: Are metamorphmagi 
bound to change into human, or at least animate form?  The Lexicon 
stated that they can change their appearance at will (paraphrased) 
but does anyone have evidence of their limitations?  I read in one 
post the opinion that they are limited by gender, possibly size.  Is 
this opinion or canon? 

If, for example, metamorphmagi can change into the form of an 
inanimate object, that would be incredibly useful in a fight like 
the one at the MoM.  "That hat rack just got Lucious!"  But that 
would be a camoumorphmagus...oh dear.






From steffy07 at aol.com  Thu Mar 25 19:39:43 2004
From: steffy07 at aol.com (steffy07)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 19:39:43 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c3v8si+5185@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3vchv+jeem@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93946

> Potioncat:
> Thank you for bringing that up.  I've been wondering about 2 
> things.  Why should it be Lupin who talks to Snape, rather than 
> Sirius?  And, did he ever talk to Snape?  For the all the 
insistance 
> that occlumency is important, there didn't appear to be any follow 
> up.



I have always assumed that, even though Lupin has a rather strained 
relationship with Snape, his is much better than Sirius.  Lupin does 
not tend to get into a shouting match everytime he speaks with 
Snape.  Of the two of them, Lupin seems more even-tempered, and a 
more natural to talk to Snape.  

As for Lupin being mad or bitter towards Harry, I do not thing he 
will be.  After all, if the members of the Order had told Harry more 
about what LV was planning, Harry might not have been so gung-ho to 
believe all the images implanted.  Not to offend all the Snape fans 
at there, but if I were Lupin, I would be angerier at Snape.  Harry 
is a teenager, prone to fits of anger and stubborness.  As an adult 
and since he knew a little bit more about what LV was planning than 
Harry (all of the Order did) he should have taken more steps to 
secure Harry's occlumency lessons.  Granted, Harry upset him, but he 
knew more about the danger awaiting Harry...

I don't know if someone has said that before, but thats just my 
opinion.

Steffy, hoping she doesn't get massacred for criticizing Snape






From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Thu Mar 25 19:51:10 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 19:51:10 -0000
Subject: If DD knows, then why...? [was: Snape, trying very hard not to smile?]
In-Reply-To: <fb.52946932.2d92b08d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <c3vd7e+b5qh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93947

Sue wrote: 
> > ...DD knows what is in the Chamber.  He was there before, he knew 
> > Hagrid didn't open the Chamber and it doesn't take a genius 
> > (okay, maybe Hermione is a genius, but so is DD) to figure it 
> > out.  Especially after living through seeing TM become Voldie.  
> > He certainly wasn't keeping his talent for conversing with snakes 
> > a secret later in his life.  ...a little chat with a certain 
> > teenaged ghost in the girls' bathroom and voila! Mystery solved.
 
Eloise replied:
> Yeess.....
> This *is* puzzling. Why the heck didn't Dumbledore do something 
> about it if he had all the clues there? He knew Tom Riddle opened 
> the Chamber the first time. He knew where Myrtle died and that he 
> could interview her. He *should* know. He also knows that Harry is 
> hiding information from him, or possibly more than that. He may 
> actually know the nature of what Harry is hiding from him. Why on 
> earth doesn't he share what he knows with Harry, find out about the 
> voice he's hearing and tackle Tom and the Basilisk himself?

Susan:
Other than the (admittedly very weak) possibility that, again, DD is 
**allowing** Harry to be tested, to develop skills, I've not got a 
clue.

THEN ELOISE SAID:
> I hate to be a wet blanket, but mystery and adventure book plots 
> frequently hang on the necessity of people not asking the right 
> questions (Harry, anyone?) or not putting two and two together 
> until the right point. Dumbledore's near omniscience and superior 
> intelligence are a bit of a handicap in this respect.

Susan:
This is an EXCELLENT point, Eloise.  I think as a group we spend 
**so** much time thinking, analyzing, wondering, permutating [verb?], 
a-ha'ing, theorizing, and looking for flints [what *is* the origin of 
that word, btw?], that it's no WONDER we find gaps in logic or things 
which don't seem to add up.  In my book, given the sheer size of 
canon, it's a wonder we don't find more!


Sue also wrote:
> Many people
> have suggested (Sorry, I don't have the post #'s, I'm just not up to
> that much research.) that Snape used the Dueling Club to "out" Harry
> as a Parselmouth.

Susan:
Can I show that I've likely got a bad case of movie contamination 
here?  [Eeeek!!]  *Do* we know that Snape told Draco to use the 
serpentsorcia spell [I've butchered that spelling]??  It's certainly 
not clear in the movie and I don't have my book here to check.

Siriusly Snapey Susan...who's rushing out the door, so please forgive 
boo-boos.






From pegoheart144 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 25 13:32:13 2004
From: pegoheart144 at yahoo.com (Peggy Gross)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 05:32:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry Teaching DADA
In-Reply-To: <c3ss2s+k5eg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040325133213.82174.qmail@web10401.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93948

--- sundancing10 <sundancing10 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Don't know if this has been discussed yet (as I am
> relatively new to 
> the list):  Any thoughts on Dumbledore picking Harry
> as the next 
> DADA professor?  Certainly, he is very young, etc,
> but he would now 
> be 'of age' and he has certainly proven his teaching
> ability in the 
> DA.  Also, if the wizarding world is at war, not
> many would be 
> available to teach and it could lead to even greater
> tension between 
> Harry & Snape and Griffindors and Slytherins.  I
> don't really think 
> JKR would necessarily do it, but it has great
> potential.

 
I don't think Harry is going to be named DADA teacher.
JK Rowling has traditionally used that teaching
position to introduce a new character. They have all
been new and have never been mentioned before the book
they filled that position. I think she'll stick to her
pattern to date.

"Pegoheart"> 





From hiteshl at vsnl.com  Thu Mar 25 14:50:04 2004
From: hiteshl at vsnl.com (hi_t22000)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 14:50:04 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment
In-Reply-To: <20040325030732.37455.qmail@web13505.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c3uris+1gba@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93949

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ms Mo Me <fauntine_80 at y...>
wrote:
> 
> ...snip...
> I think Lupin will play a much bigger role in the
> books to come.  He is actually my favorite character,
> and I have actually been thinking of posting a post
> about Lupin fans.  There are HP, Sirius, Snape and DD
> fans, but I have yet to run across a Lupin fan.
> 
> I think Lupin is the most genuine character out of all
> of them.  
  ...snip...

I am a Lupin fan too. He impressed me during his train journey to
Hogwarts and even more so in his first DADA class with the Boggart. I
think that Lupin is one of the few characters in this series to remain
pragmatic and in control of their speech and emotions. Just look back
at the Shrieking Shack scene, and of course the scene after Sirius'
death (as many have pointed out). This quality will be important to
Harry and the Order of the Phoenix in the future when the situation
will undoubtedly become more chaotic, violent and scary.  I think that
he will play an important part in books 6 & 7. At least I hope so.:) 
  





From pegoheart144 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 25 13:08:32 2004
From: pegoheart144 at yahoo.com (Peggy Gross)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 05:08:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lupin's resentment
In-Reply-To: <20040325030738.21742.qmail@web13501.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20040325130832.81601.qmail@web10410.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93950


Anna wrote:
> 
> In OoP, when Harry breaks into Umbridge's office to
> talk to Sirius 
> about what he had seen in the pensieve, Lupin  says:
> 
> "Harry, there is nothing so important as you
> learning
> Occulemency!" 
> said Lupin sternly.  Do you understand me? 
> Nothing!" 
> 
> When I reread  OoP, reading that line made me wonder
> if, on a 
> subconscious level,  Lupin  harbors any resentment
> toward Harry 
> because Harry's failure to learn Occulemency
> ultimately lead to 
> Sirius' death. 
> 
> 
I don't think there is resentment on Lupin's part. I
think he realizes that Harry is vulnerable because of
his connection to Voldemort. Harry needs to overcome
that vulnerability to really succeed in the fight
against Voldemort

Pegoheart




From lfreeman at mbc.edu  Thu Mar 25 17:11:29 2004
From: lfreeman at mbc.edu (Freeman, Louise Margaret)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 12:11:29 -0500
Subject: Dumbledore's lack of surprise
Message-ID: <WorldClient-F200403251211.AA11296015@mbc.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 93951

> Inge wrote:
> > 
> > Ok - so how DID Dumbledore know anything about Lily's sacrifice 
at 
> > that time? Harry was a little more than a year old and the only 
> > person to tell what had happened at his home that night. Not a 
> chance.
> > Alas! Someone else must have been in the house to witness what 
> > happened and told Dumbledore that Lily actually gave her life 
for 
> > Harry. Who? 

Joanna:
> I think that someone did either witness or overhear Voldemort's 
> confrontation with Lily, 

Well, we know someone witnessed it, Baby Harry.  And we know he formed a 
memory of it, because the Dementors reactivate it, years later.  Perhaps the 
simplest explanation, given that we know Dumbledore is skilled at 
Occulmency, is that he spent read the memory from little Harry's mind. 
Ababy's mind might be so easily readable that no overt "spell" would be 
needed. He might be able to glean what had happened, even if Harry could not 
understand or communicate it at that time. Or perhaps another Occulmancer 
(Snape?) did so during the "missing day", and sent DD an owl. There wouldn't 
necessarily need to be another witness.

Louise






From Garibaldi1 at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 25 18:40:59 2004
From: Garibaldi1 at hotmail.com (Cheryl)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 18:40:59 -0000
Subject: Harry Teaching DADA
Message-ID: <c3v93r+7ts1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93952

sundancing10 wrote:
Don't know if this has been discussed yet (as I am relatively new to 
the list): Any thoughts on Dumbledore picking Harry as the next DADA 
professor? Certainly, he is very young, etc, but he would now be 'of 
age' and he has certainly proven his teaching ability in the DA.  
Also, if the wizarding world is at war, not many would be available 
to teach and it could lead to even greater tension between Harry & 
Snape and Griffindors and Slytherins. I don't really think JKR would 
necessarily do it, but it has great potential.

Me (Kemenran):
I think that Harry would make a great DADA teacher as he has enough 
skill to teach the rest of the student population. If he needs any 
help, there is also Lupin, and the rest of the Order to send some 
books (descreetly of course) and what ever things he would need.

Kemenran





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Thu Mar 25 19:57:11 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 19:57:11 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c3vchv+jeem@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3vdin+9vpa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93953

>>snip snap snop, when you apparate you go "pop"<<
(snipping my post)
> 
> 
Steffy answered: 
> I have always assumed that, even though Lupin has a rather 
>strained  relationship with Snape, his is much better than Sirius.  
>Lupin does not tend to get into a shouting match everytime he 
>speaks with  Snape. 
> snip<
>  Not to offend all the Snape fans at there, but if I were Lupin, I 
>would be angerier at Snape.  Harry  is a teenager, prone to fits of 
>anger and stubborness.  As an adult  and since he knew a little bit 
>more about what LV was planning than  Harry (all of the Order did) 
>he should have taken more steps to  secure Harry's occlumency 
>lessons.  
> 
> Steffy, hoping she doesn't get massacred for criticizing Snape


Potioncat:
Now, when have Snape fans ever taken umbrage at criticism of the 
good professor?

There are a couple of events that even I cannot defend or explain.  
One is when he makes the comment about Hermione's teeth (talk about 
the kettle calling the cauldron rusty!)
The other is when he stops occlumency with Harry.

Potioncat




From tcyhunt at earthlink.net  Thu Mar 25 20:03:02 2004
From: tcyhunt at earthlink.net (Tracy Hunt)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 20:03:02 -0000
Subject: Has anyone noticed this?
In-Reply-To: <20040324220355.28840.qmail@web60505.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c3vdtm+erm3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93954

electrogirl wrote:
> I was rereading the other day, and this struck me as strange.  If 
it's been discussed, I'll accept my flogging graciously as long as 
post numbers are provided!
>  
> The leader of the headless hunt....Sir Patrick Delaney-Podmore, and 
then Order member Sturgis Podmore.....any connection???
>  

Tcy:
There have been previous posts about the two Podmores.  I'm one of 
those strange HP geeks that has her own database on the characters 
and when they appear in the books.  I noticed the 2nd Podmore almost 
immediately.  I remember posting on it.  I remember there was some 
limited discussion on it.  I don't remember anything earthshattering 
coming from the discussion.  Wish I could refer you to the posts so 
that you could read for yourself - but after searching 11 months of 
archives, I've turned up empty for the posts I had in mind.  I guess 
we'll just have to start over again.

Tcy
(who's 2 knuts are that there *must* be a connection of some sort, 
but hasn't a clue what it might be - just like Gladys and Davey 
Gudgeon)




From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Thu Mar 25 20:08:36 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 20:08:36 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c3v0g3+npl6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3ve84+8jn6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93955

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tigerpatronus" <tigerpatronus at y...> wrote:
> 
> Dittos. I like tragic characters, and I think Lupin qualifies. The 
> description of his grief in the MoM while continueing to protect HP 
> is heart-wrenching. That made me cry more than merely losing Sirius, 
> about which I was pretty broken up. 
> 
> Assuming he's not actually ESE!Lupin, of course. Then he's the best 
> undercover mole, ever. Of course, the HP saga is complex enough that 
> he could be both. 
> 

As someone keen to  flaunt the FEATHERBOA, eager for blood, guts
and slimy ichor to ooze from Lovecraftian phrases culled from the
vile Necronomicon  (TM Abdul Al-Hazred), seeping through the eldritch
unearthly, unhuman, blasphemous shapes of non-Euclidean geometry
that hauntingly rise from the deeps....er, where was I?

Oh, yes.Lupin.
A combination of Compassionate!Lupin and Killer!Lupin can be 
constructed.

All you  need do is postulate ESE!Sirius.
Lupin, caring dreadfully for Harry (Ahh!) finds out that Sirius is
up to no good (Boo!) So he eliminates Maddog!Sirius at the Ministry
to protect Harry from danger/contamination. (Cheers!)

Naturally, being  such a fine, sensitive  fellow, he suffers the
pain of anguish and remorse. Voila! Compassionatekiller!Lupin!

Not the first time I've offered this theory, and it probably won't be 
the last -  at least until JKR knocks it on the head. The fun thing is 
that there is so little evidence for or against. It  all depends on the
attitude of the poster, Lupin's actions at the Ministry during the
fight being a total mystery. And frankly, anyone locked up in 
Grimmauld Place with a whining, moaning Sirius for weeks on end 
deserves the chance to zap  him.

Kneasy







From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 25 20:15:20 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 20:15:20 -0000
Subject: Potions Master Question
In-Reply-To: <PAEKIBGMHHNDNHEGDBMMCEFNCNAA.suzchiles@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <c3veko+uq83@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93956

Neri said:
Potions, on the other hand, seems to be less a distinguished field
than Charms and DADA, not to mention Transfiguration. It is important
because of its obvious utility, but it doesn't have a strong
theoretical basis, but seems to have its roots in the humble skill of
cooking.

 
Suzanne:
Cooking? I'd say it's more like chemistry, myself, which I consider a
highly distinguished field.

Carol:
Good comparison, Suzanne. Potions as a field of knowledge requires
great precision: Forget the hellebore in step 3, and your potion is
worthless. Snape values precision and has the logical mind of a
scientist, which is why he excels at Potions. He knows exactly how
much of each ingredient to add, in which order, how long and in which
direction to stir, etc., for every potion he teaches--and for other
tricky potions such as the wolfbane potion and veritaserum--much like
a pharmacist in the RW.

If we're going to compare potions making with cooking, it would have
to be with the skill of a French chef that enables him to make a
faultless souffle, not with Molly magically peeling potatoes or a
McDonald's employee flipping hamburgers.

Carol, who would undoubtedly be kicked out of cooking school on her
first day when she failed to break the egg one-handed




From annabellejane97 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 25 20:15:09 2004
From: annabellejane97 at yahoo.com (Anna)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 20:15:09 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c3v0bt+bki8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3vekd+48ck@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93957

When I raised the issue of Lupin's possible resentment, I in no way 
whatsoever meant to disparage him in the slightest.  I adore Lupin.  
He is my favorite character.  He is also, IMHO, the most emotionally 
complex character in the entire series.  .  There is an inner 
conflict in Lupin that goes back to the Marauder days.  I have no 
doubt that he loves Harry.  That is what is so interesting.  I was 
wondering if Lupin felt any inner conflict between his love for 
Harry as a surrogate father figure and his love for Sirius as a 
surrogate brother.  To me, Sirius' death is kind of like a bridge 
from Lupin's past to his future.  Love, death and change are all 
difficult.  

-Anna




From magarama11 at aol.com  Thu Mar 25 18:26:37 2004
From: magarama11 at aol.com (peliroja1118)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 18:26:37 -0000
Subject: Dumbledores lack of surprise
In-Reply-To: <c3v7av+j54r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3v88t+9npt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93958

Inge wrote:

<<So - until Harry tells him that Lily died to protect him, Dumbledore 
had no idea how Harry survived. He couldn't have known either -  since 
he was not at Godrics Hollow that night. What made me wonder is how quickly Dumbledore is to give Harry the answer about the 'Love Protection' Lily gave him. Wouldn't someone like Dumbledore more likely have said: "Ooooh - 
so THAT is why - THAT's how you came out of that attack alive!" But no  - he doesn't even stop to think before he tells Harry that this is the reason he survived - even though Dumbledore him self didn't know till then (according to his answer to McGonagall earlier) and probably has been wondering what on earth really happened that night at Godrics Hollow. Maybe he knew all along and just lied to Minerva.... ?>>

Sue responded:

<<DD had 11 years to stew on the reason by the time Harry asked.  He must have suspected from the beginning but he couldn't be sure.  I don't think he lied to McGonagall, I think it is more likely he gave the almost 12 year old Harry the simplest answer he could and that the real answer of Harry's survival in GH is way more complex than just his mother's sacrifice.>>

Actually, I think DD would have known from the beginning. In book 5 (US p. 836), DD explains to Harry that "I am speaking of course, of the fact that your mother died trying to save you. She gave you a lingering protection he never expected, a protection that flows in your veins to this day. I put my trust, therefore, in your mother's blood. I delivered you to her sister, her only remaining relative." So, DD knew from the night LV disappeared that Lilly was what saved Harry, since he made his decision that night with her sacrifice in 
mind. 

-peliroja





From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 25 20:27:57 2004
From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 20:27:57 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c3vekd+48ck@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3vfcd+fcpb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93959

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Anna" <annabellejane97 at y...> 
wrote:
> I was 
> wondering if Lupin felt any inner conflict between his love for 
> Harry as a surrogate father figure and his love for Sirius as a 
> surrogate brother.

Anna,

I think Lupin might work out his frustrations about once a month.

-Joe in SoFla




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Thu Mar 25 15:25:03 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 15:25:03 -0000
Subject: Fields of Magic (was Re: Potions Master Question)
In-Reply-To: <c3u5h7+9dnu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3utkf+1b73@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93960

x
> Neri:
> Oops, I was apparently not very clear here. I certainly did not 
mean 
> to say that Potions is not useful. It is extremely useful, as you 
> show with your examples. I was talking about how distinguished is 
the 
> area in the eyes of the WW. There are several factors that might 
make 
> a field of magic more or less distinguished than others, and 
utility 
> is only one of them. Some other factors are:
> 
> 1. The strength of the theoretical basis. This is considered very 
> important in science (and JKR's magic is modeled on science in many 
> senses). Some areas of pure mathematics have no practical utility 
> whatsoever, but are still considered important because of the 
strong 
> theory. OTOH medicine, which is the most important science from 
> practical considerations, doesn't have a very strong theoretical 
> basis (which is why we have alternative medicine but not 
alternative 
> physics or alternative mathematics). 

snip

Potioncat: 
 I'm not sure I follow this line of reasoning.  My 
comments would be so far OT as to earn a howler.  So I think I'll 
leave it. I do agree that Potions is similar to medicine. 


Neri:
> 2. Just plain show. Potions (and Herbology) require tedious manual 
> work and not much impressive "wand waving". Charms, DADA and 
> especially Transfiguration are very impressive to watch. I know 
this 
> is superficial, but I'm not talking here about the actual 
importance 
> of the field. I'm talking about how distinguished it is considered 
in 
> the eyes of other wizards.

Potioncat:  
Agreed on the drama point.  But some things require 
transfiguration and some require potions.  I don't see one as being 
seen as more important than the other.  


Neri: 
> 3. Power. Fields that require the wizard to be more powerful are 
> likely to be more distinguished. It seems Potions and Herbology 
> require very little power (in fact, I can't see why a muggle or a 
> squib won't be able to brew many of these potions). OTOH 
> Transfiguration seems to require a lot of magical power.

Potioncat: 
I see this view as a real mistake.  If Potions did not take power, 
Lupin could make his own wolfsbane potion.  Just as not all adult 
wizards can form a corporeal patronus, not all can make certain 
potions.  Just because you do not wave a wand or mutter an 
incantation does not mean it is not powerful magic. 


Neri: 
> 4. Tradition. Some fields are distinguished just because they were 
> practiced for many years by famous and learned people. Potions 
seems 
> to have rather humble origins (it is basically cooking). 
> Transfiguration is traditionally considered the mark of the 
greatest 
> wizards.

Potioncat:
I'm not sure what tradition you're referring to here.  On the Wizard 
Card DD was listed as being famous for three things and none of them 
were Transfiguration.

I will agree that if Potions is viewed as something "witches" perform 
that it would be held in less esteem than a magic that is 
traditionally for "wizards."  (I've seen the respect for doctors 
decline as women entered the field.)


Neri: 
> Back to utility, Potions is indeed very useful, but so is 
> Transfiguration. You forgot to mention switching, vanishing and 
> conjuring spells, which are all part of Transfiguration. Conjuring 
> especially seems dead useful. I wonder what are its limitations. 
For 
> example, could you just conjure a cup of polyjuice potion out of 
thin 
> air instead of bothering to brew it? It hardly seems fair.

Potioncat: 
 I don't know the rules here either,  I recall a post that 
indicated that conjured items were temporary, but I'm not sure if 
that was canon.


Neri: 
> Regarding DADA, I think Potioncat was right in classifying it as a 
> specialized area of Charms. It is, however, considerably more 
> dangerous than standard Charms. It also has great practical 
> importance, a lot of impressive wand waving, a celebrated 
tradition, 
> and requires a lot of power. However, I suspect that the reputation 
> of DADA is somewhat tarnished because, especially in the high 
level, 
> the distinction between DADA and the Dark Arts is so very fine. 
>snip<

Potioncat:  
I agree here.  I'll go out on a limb though, canon doesn't support it 
except through interpretation.  As we've seen DADA taught, it looks 
like Charms.  But I would think it could include aspects of 
Herbology, Potions, Transfigurations (have I forgotten anything?)   
So I would not be surprised to see a lesson showing the use of a 
plant or potion against certain dark creatures. 

For example, when Molly has the kids spraying the doxies with a 
potion, that is DADA.  

Neri: 
> In addition to the above, we also have the clues I've already 
> mentioned: The headmaster and his deputy were/are Transfiguration 
> teachers, and Snape would much rather be the DADA teacher than the 
> Potions Master. This is not conclusive canon, only my impression, 
but 
> I think the order of status (again, not the order of actual 
> importance, which is something else) is approximately:
> Transfiguration > DADA > Charms > Potions and Herbology > other 
> subjects.

Potioncat:
For the purpose of this post, I won't argue about whether Snape 
really wants the DADA position.  But, yes, DADA seems to have 
more "status."  And I think students would be more excited about 
Transfigurations and Charms than potions as a class, even if it 
wasn't Snape teaching it.

But as far as status within the adult community goes: Currently the 
two teachers with the most status at Hogwarts are the Transfiguration 
teacher (deputy headmistress) and the Potions Master. They seem to 
always be at DD's side.  This in spite of the fact that the Charms 
teacher has more tenure than Snape and we know the Herbology teacher 
is older (Wait, we do know that don't we?  We just don't know how 
long she's been teaching.) So I don't see that Transfiguration is an 
overwhelming selling point in the route to Headmaster and academic 
status.  

Also, to enter NEWT level Potions, one must have a very high mark on 
OWLS.  I can't see that being the case if it wasn't esteemed.

Neri: 
> Just an opinion (I thought shipping was the touchy subject:-)


Potioncat: Oh, I don't dare go to shipping! : )





From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Thu Mar 25 20:37:25 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 20:37:25 -0000
Subject: Snape, trying very hard not to smile? Or is he just allergic to cats?
In-Reply-To: <fb.52946932.2d92b08d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <c3vfu5+b5u5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93961

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, eloiseherisson at a... wrote:
> 
> Sue:
> It is MVHO that Snape is directly in contact with 
> > Voldemort.  That is what makes him so valuable to the Order.
> 
> Eloise:
> I fear that he is, also.
> 
>snip 
> I doubt that Harry would have seen anything that could have incriminated 
> Snape in any way. Harry already knows he was a DE; anything he might have heard 
> him say/seen him do could have been explained in terms of either his not having 
> been converted to Dumbledore's cause at the time or acting as a double agent 
> later.
> 

I'm not totally up to date with this thread, but your last statement about Harry not
seeing anything that might incriminate Snape could be turned round.

Tie it to the previous line where you fear Sevvy is in direct contact with Voldy.
Could Harry not buckling down to Occlumency compromise Snape *with Voldy*?
Does Harry know things about Snape that Sevvy would not want Voldy to know?
If he does then Occlumency protects not only Harry but Snape too. If that were
the case no  wonder Snape is frustrated about Harry's attitude.
It all depends on how much Snape has told Voldy already.
It all gets delightfully  convoluted, doesn't it?


Kneasy




From jrc241 at psu.edu  Thu Mar 25 21:07:56 2004
From: jrc241 at psu.edu (pennstgrle)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 21:07:56 -0000
Subject: A Wake-Up Call??
In-Reply-To: <c3t9ao+t835@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3vhnc+imn0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93962

The Sergeant Majorette says

> Ron does not have a "crush" on Hermione, and I believe that's the 
> whole point. A "crush" is the kind of purely hormonal reaction an 
> adolescent male has to a girl like Fleur or any conventionally 
pretty 
> female. We're meant to see Ron's friendship with Hermione evolve 
into 
> something more grown-up, and we, along with Harry, Hermione and 
> everybody else in the world, see it long before Ron himself does.
> 
> Remember the non-hug at the end of the CoS movie? That was 
deliberate 
> foreshadowing of the unresolved sexual tension between 
Ron/Hermione 
> that JKR knew we'd be seeing in the future.
> 
> Really, neither Ron nor Hermione are "crushable". But each is the 
> kind of person the other kind of person grows up to marry.
> 
> --JDR (who thinks that Luna is to Hermione as Viktor is to Ron: a 
> wake-up call...)

Jaimee asks:

What do you mean by "Luna is to Hermione as Viktor is to Ron: a 
wake-up call"?

I understand how Viktor can be a wake-up call to Ron because Viktor 
made Ron feel jealous and become aware of feeling for Hermione (and 
I do mean *aware*! I do not mean that he understands what he's 
feeling) But I would love it if you (or anyone on the site) would 
ellaborate more on drawing such a parallel between Viktor/Ron and 
Luna/Harry...

Thank you :)

Jaimee

Jaimee




From belijako at online.no  Thu Mar 25 21:09:38 2004
From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 21:09:38 -0000
Subject: If DD knows, then why...? [was: Snape, trying very hard not to smile?]
In-Reply-To: <c3vd7e+b5qh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3vhqi+36oq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93963

Susan wrote: 
*Do* we know that Snape told Draco to use the serpentsorcia spell? 
It's certainly not clear in the movie and I don't have my book here 
to check.

Berit replies:

Quote:
"Snape moved closer to Malfoy, bent down and whispered something in 
his ear.
... Harry looked nervously up at Lockhart and said, 'Professor, could 
you show me that blocking thing again?'
'Scared?' muttered Malfoy, so that Lockhart couldn't hear him.
'You wish,' said Harry out of the corner of his mouth.
... 'Three - two - one - go!' he [Lockhart] shouted.
Malfoy raised his wand quickly and bellowed, '*Serpensortia!*' (CoS 
p. 145 UK Ed)

Harry (or we as the readers) don't hear exactly what Snape whispers 
in Draco's ear, but from the context it sure doesn't look like that 
Serpensortia spell was Draco's idea. This is how Harry perceives the 
situation as well. The reason Harry wants Lockhart to show him "that 
blocking thing" again is because he thinks Snape is advising Malfoy 
as to what to do; quite a reason to be apprehensive! Also, Snape 
doesn't seem very surprised at the sight of a snake coming out of 
Draco's wand:

Quote:
"Don't move, Potter,' said Snape lazily, clearly enjoying the sight 
of Harry standing motionless, eye to eye with an angry snake. 'I'll 
get rid of it...' (CoS p. 145 UK Ed)

Berit
http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 25 20:52:08 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 20:52:08 -0000
Subject: Potions Master Question
In-Reply-To: <c3sulc+eg9q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3vgpo+ov3b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93964

> Neri:
<snip> If DADA were not important, you can be sure that 
> Umbridge would have found a better position for herself.


Carol:
I've already anticipated the "core positions" part of your post and
answered it elsewhere, so I'll just respond to this one sentence.

First, DADA is the only open position when Umbridge insinuates herself
into Hogwarts. Second, she probably couldn't teach Potions if she
tried. ("Wands and cauldrons away. Read chapter one, Theory of
Potions. There will be no need to talk.") Third, she's particularly
concerned about DADA because she doesn't want Dumbledore to teach his
students defensive magic, which might prevent a forcible takeover of
the school. (Fudge thinks DD is creating an army, remember.) None of
that makes Potions less important to students than DADA.

Also, if DADA were more important than Potions, wouldn't one of the
heads of houses be given that position? (If not Snape, for whatever
reason, why not McGonagall? DD could probably find a skilled
Transfiguration teacher to replace her, one of her own former star
pupils, such as Bill Weasley, much more easily than he could replace a
Potions Master like Snape.) But back to DADA--DD hires total
incompetents rather than giving the position to McGonagall, Snape, or
Flitwick. We don't know of anything the students learned from
Quirrell; all they learned from Lockhart was not to release Cornish
Pixies into a classroom and how *not* to defend yourself in a duel;
and even Lupin only taught them how to deal with a few minor Dark
beings or creatures or however you would classify hinkypunks and
boggarts. (Mad Eye Moody never even got to teach because his position
was taken over by a maniac, so I'm not counting him as a person DD
hired. We don't know how he would have approached the subject.) Surely
if DADA were more important than the key courses taught by the heads
of houses, he'd have taught it himself rather than hiring such people.

I concede that DADA is important, especially with a war coming, but I
don't think it's the single most important course. (I also don't see
Transfiguration as being more important than Potions, as you said in
another post. Maybe vanishing spells will prove important, but
transfiguring a rat into a teacup?)

Carol, who hopes the students will have a decent DADA teacher next
year and that both Transfiguration and Potions will play a part in the
coming war




From inky_quill at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 25 21:27:11 2004
From: inky_quill at hotmail.com (Julie)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 21:27:11 -0000
Subject: Podmore (Has anyone noticed this?)
In-Reply-To: <20040324220355.28840.qmail@web60505.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c3virf+bnp9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93965

Jen wrote: [snip] 
> I was rereading the other day ....The leader of the headless 
hunt....Sir Patrick Delaney-Podmore, and then Order member Sturgis 
Podmore.....any connection???


Wow! Good observation, that had passed me by completely.  Perhaps Sir 
Patrick is one of Sturgis' long ago ancestors?   I know that we got a 
glimpse in OotP at the tangled nature of Wizard geneologies  and how 
many pureblood families are interconnected in ways that aren't so 
obvious on the surface:  for instance who would have thought Sirius 
was related to the Malfoys via Narcissa?  

Inky/Julie




From witchwriter_no1 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 25 20:57:22 2004
From: witchwriter_no1 at yahoo.com (witchwriter_no1)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 20:57:22 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c3vdin+9vpa@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3vh3i+u1m4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93966

> Steffy answered: 
>  Not to offend all the Snape fans at there, but if I were Lupin, I 
> >would be angerier at Snape.  Harry  is a teenager, prone to fits 
of 
> >anger and stubborness.  As an adult  and since he knew a little 
bit 
> >more about what LV was planning than  Harry (all of the Order did) 
> >he should have taken more steps to  secure Harry's occlumency 
> >lessons.  
> 
> Potioncat:
> Now, when have Snape fans ever taken umbrage at criticism of the 
> good professor?
> 
> There are a couple of events that even I cannot defend or explain.  
> One is when he makes the comment about Hermione's teeth (talk about 
> the kettle calling the cauldron rusty!)
> The other is when he stops occlumency with Harry.

Witch Writer now: 
    I have been following all the mails on this topic and it has been 
very intriguing to me, indeed. I would like to address it in two 
part, first focusing on the main content of this topis: Lupin's 
resentment towards Harry and secondly Snapes issues.
 
Firstly:   I really like Lupin and I think he a very strong 
character. He is understanding and smart, surely knows the tricks of 
the trade and is emotionally and physically very depressed due to his 
condition. He feels eliminated and alienated, but does not stop with 
feeling only those. He is a good judge and highly respects DD. He 
feels guilty for feeling or rather, accusing Sirius to be the spy. He 
loves Harry very much and is very protective(but knows where to draw 
a line). Sirius in the other hand does miss James and see Harry as 
James more than a teenage Harry. 
    Lupin does not resent Harry at all. He merely is stern and 
authoratative and does not loose his sight and mind like Sirius. He 
addresses the problem and calmly handles the issues. He does suggest 
that he would rather talk to Snape, because Snape would only mock at 
Sirius and also Sirius was involved in disgracing Snape in the school 
ground. Lupin, did not participate(neither did he stop it). Lupin 
thus my opinion is not atall resentful towards Harry.

Secondly: Snape Attitude.
   I have many things against Snape. I am sorry and apologize in 
hurting the Snape fans, but I assure you I really like his character 
as well. But that definitley does not stop me from having issues with 
his attitude. 
   I, for many times, feel that Snape is a bit immature. His 
resentment towards James and Sirius, he blatanly shows to Harry. From 
the minute Harry steps into his first class, he sarcastically pinches 
Harry on his fame(which Harry just has come to know and is not very 
comfortable with). He, as was not able to get it out with the father 
and godfather, gets his anger and hatred on Harry (Harry is younger 
and his student, and more vulnerable). I wouldnt suggest that as some 
thing mature? A certain rudeness and loathing towards all Griffindors
( not so much with any other house) and excessive punishments to 
them. 
   Lastly, stopping the occlumency lessons. I would not categorize 
that anywhere adult and mature. He again, was taking his rage at 
Harry, for no fault of his. Snape, I feel, is sometimes selfish and 
most times insecure. His respect(or now I do wonder fear) for DD 
keeps him in the righteous track and thus in the Order. 

Witch Writer ... wandering beyond in the Forbidden Forest.




From dk59us at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 25 21:33:07 2004
From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 21:33:07 -0000
Subject: Snape outing Harry as Parselmouth (was Re: If DD knows, then why..?)
In-Reply-To: <c3vd7e+b5qh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3vj6j+ogiq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93967

Susan asked, before rushing out the door:
Can I show that I've likely got a bad case of movie contamination
here? [Eeeek!!] *Do* we know that Snape told Draco to use the
serpentsorcia spell [I've butchered that spelling]?? It's certainly
not clear in the movie and I don't have my book here to check.

Eustace_Scrubb happened to have the book at hand:
This is what happened between Malfoy and Snape prior to Draco's use of
serpensortia(on p. 193, US pb ed. of COS):

"Snape moved closer to Malfoy, bent down, and whispered something in
his ear.  Malfoy smirked, too."

Then Harry tries to get Lockhart to explain blocking again and there's
the "Scared?" "You wish" exchange between Draco and Harry; then
Lockhart counts to three and Draco casts the spell.

So we don't know what Snape said, but it would be a reasonable
inference (but not the only possible reasonable inference) that Snape
suggested serpensortia. 

What I want to know is how many 2nd years can do a competent
serpensortia?

Cheers,

Eustace_Scrubb




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Thu Mar 25 21:15:21 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 21:15:21 -0000
Subject: If DD knows, then why...? [was: Snape, trying very hard not to smile?]
In-Reply-To: <c3vd7e+b5qh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3vi59+4r8i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93968

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" 
<susiequsie23 at s...> wrote:
> Sue wrote: 
> > > ...DD knows what is in the Chamber.  He was there before, he 
knew 
> > > Hagrid didn't open the Chamber and it doesn't take a genius 
> > > (okay, maybe Hermione is a genius, but so is DD) to figure it 
> > > out.  Especially after living through seeing TM become 
Voldie.  
> > > He certainly wasn't keeping his talent for conversing with 
snakes 
> > > a secret later in his life.  ...a little chat with a certain 
> > > teenaged ghost in the girls' bathroom and voila! Mystery 
solved.
>  
> Eloise replied:
> > Yeess.....
> > This *is* puzzling. Why the heck didn't Dumbledore do something 
> > about it if he had all the clues there? He knew Tom Riddle 
opened 
> > the Chamber the first time. He knew where Myrtle died and that 
he 
> > could interview her. x
snip

Potioncat:

Why do you think DD knew Tom Riddle opened the Chamber?  I'm sure he 
knew Hagrid didn't but what did he know for certain? How would he 
know it was a basilisk? 
Perhaps he tried to talk to Myrtle, but didn't learn anything. Harry 
had a difficult enough 
time getting her to talk and she may not have talked to a 
professor.  For that matter, DD may have been hampered in his 
investigation in the early days by Headmaster Dippit 

snipping a post or two> 
 Susan:
> I think as a group we spend 
> **so** much time thinking, analyzing, wondering, permutating 
[verb?], 
> a-ha'ing, theorizing, and looking for flints [what *is* the origin 
of 
> that word, btw?], that it's no WONDER we find gaps in logic or 
things 
> which don't seem to add up.  In my book, given the sheer size of 
> canon, it's a wonder we don't find more!

Potioncat:
Flint is named after Marcus Flint who spent too many years at 
Hogwarts.
> 
 snip
> 
> Susan:
> Can I show that I've likely got a bad case of movie contamination 
> here?  [Eeeek!!]  *Do* we know that Snape told Draco to use the 
> serpentsorcia spell [I've butchered that spelling]??  It's 
certainly 
> not clear in the movie and I don't have my book here to check.
> 
Potioncat:
Yes, I believe the book has Snape whispering to Draco then Draco 
does the serpensortia spell.  But Snape doesn't seem to expect Harry 
to be able to deal with it.  I think he is testing Harry in some 
way, but I'm not sure he's looking for parselmouth.

Potioncat




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 25 21:55:46 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 21:55:46 -0000
Subject: sirius as animagus - why didn't the deatheaters know pre OOP?
In-Reply-To: <c3tq5f+sdd4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3vkh2+16os@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93969

Sue asked: 
<snip> Why did the Lestranges, Crouch and ? go after the Longbottoms?

Carol:  
It was Barty Crouch, Jr., and three Lestranges: Bellatrix; her
husband, Rodolphus; and his brother, Rabastan who Crucio'd the
Longbottoms. (Maybe we should call them BBRR or BRRB?) Sirius
identifies the third man somewhere in OoP--I think it's in "The Noble
House of Black" chapter. I'm still wondering why Rabastan is in the
story. Maybe he's part of the contrasting brothers motif? (I very much
doubt that he'll be "the good ex-Slytherin.")

Sue wrote:
<snip> Peter knew why Voldemort wanted the Potters and he knew there
was another couple who could have fulfilled the profecy. He sent that
horrible group to the Longbottoms to buy himself time to escape.


P.S. Although Wormtail may well have informed LV that the Longbottoms
as well as the Potters fit the Prophecy, he couldn't have been the one
who sent BRRB after the Longbottoms. He was already supposedly
"murdered" by Sirius (and apparently considered a traitor by Bellatrix
and Co. because of the backfired AK). The torture of the Longbottoms
occurred somewhat later, after most of the DEs were caught and people
were starting to feel safe.

Carol, who thought this was going to be a one-sentence post!




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Thu Mar 25 22:14:13 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 22:14:13 -0000
Subject: If DD knows, then why...? [was: Snape, trying very hard not to smile?]
In-Reply-To: <c3vi59+4r8i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3vljl+5ono@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93970

Susan:
> > ... and looking for flints [what *is* the origin of that word, 
> > btw?]...., 
 
Potioncat:
> Flint is named after Marcus Flint who spent too many years at 
> Hogwarts.

Susan:
> > Can I show that I've likely got a bad case of movie 
> > contamination here?  [Eeeek!!]  *Do* we know that Snape told 
> > Draco to use the serpentsorcia spell [I've butchered that 
> > spelling]??  It's certainly not clear in the movie and I don't 
> > have my book here to check.

Potioncat:
> Yes, I believe the book has Snape whispering to Draco then Draco 
> does the serpensortia spell.  But Snape doesn't seem to expect 
> Harry to be able to deal with it.  I think he is testing Harry in 
> some way, but I'm not sure he's looking for parselmouth.


SUSAN AGAIN:
*Many* thanks to Berit, EustaceScrub & Potioncat for so quickly 
answering my question about "flint" and for providing the dueling 
passage of CoS to clear this up.  The movie *did* provide a 
different take on it.  

I am left w/ the question that Potioncat has alluded to:  Do others 
think Snape was trying to discover whether Harry is a 
Parselmouth...or do you think he was just being mean...or setting up 
some other "test" for Harry?


Potioncat also wondered:
> Why do you think DD knew Tom Riddle opened the Chamber?  I'm sure 
> he knew Hagrid didn't but what did he know for certain? How would 
> he know it was a basilisk? Perhaps he tried to talk to Myrtle, but 
> didn't learn anything. Harry had a difficult enough time getting 
> her to talk and she may not have talked to a professor.  For that 
> matter, DD may have been hampered in his investigation in the 
> early days by Headmaster Dippit 


SUSAN AGAIN:
Yes, I think these are good questions as well.  Is there something 
in canon which makes people *sure* DD knew Tom opened the Chamber 
and what was within it, or is it the "all-knowing DD" assumption?  
It certainly seems he *should* have tried speaking w/ Myrtle.  Would 
DD have "ways" of making a ghost answer questions??

Siriusly Snapey Susan






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 25 22:17:39 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 22:17:39 -0000
Subject: Headless Podmore was: Has anyone noticed this?
In-Reply-To: <c3umvt+d77q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3vlq3+qp5d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93971

> Geoff:
> I must admit I hadn't noticed the Sir Patrick's name - I really must 
> read every sentence carefully. Mark you, it's a tpical Jo Rowling 
> ploy. One name is in Book 2, the other in Book 5, so we've forgotten 
> our headless friend by then! <snip>
> 
> "TRESPASS AT MINISTRY
> 
> Sturgis Podmore, 38, of number two Laburnham Gardens, Clapham, has 
> appeared in front of the Wizengamot charged with trespass and 
> attempted robbery.......Podmore, who refused to speak in his own
defence, was convicted on both charges and sentenced to six months in
Azkaban."
>

Carol:
I remembered Moody commenting on how young Sturgis Podmore looks in
the photograph of the old Order members that he shows to Harry, but
I'd forgotten that his exact age was mentioned in the Daily Prophet
article you quoted. If he's 38 at that point in OoP, he must be only a
year or two older than MWPP and Snape and would have gone to Hogwarts
with them. (Snape was 35-36 in GoF, so he and the survivng Marauders
would be 36-37 in OoP.) Maybe Sturgis will be a source of information
about MWPP in their school days, as well as revealing to us the
conditions in post-Dementor Azkaban?

Regarding his (presumed) relationship to "Sir Properly Decapitated
Podmore," I'm not sure that the ghostly Podmore is a Hogwarts ghost,
but if he is, he must have encountered the schoolboy Sturgis at some
point and possibly revealed their relationship. (Maybe Sturgis will
die and come back as a ghost?)

Carol, who is betting that Sturgis is yet another Gryffindor based on
his refusal to testify on his own behalf




From jdr0918 at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 25 22:17:17 2004
From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 22:17:17 -0000
Subject: A Wake-Up Call??
In-Reply-To: <c3vhnc+imn0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3vlpd+pqer@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93972

<<<In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pennstgrle" wrote: What do you 
mean by "Luna is to Hermione as Viktor is to Ron: a wake-up call"? I 
understand how Viktor can be a wake-up call to Ron because Viktor 
made Ron feel jealous and become aware of feeling for Hermione (and I 
do mean *aware*! ...But I would love it if you (or anyone on the 
site) would ellaborate more on drawing such a parallel between 
Viktor/Ron and Luna/Harry...>>>

The Sergeant Majorette says

Harry has nothing to do with it. We're talking the inevitability of 
Ron/Hermione here. Hermione knows that Ron has feelings for her; 
however, she seems to have figured that all she has to do is wait for 
him to grow up a little.

Enter Luna, who (to my mind at least) is clearly attracted to Ron. 
We've known since GoF that the Lovegoods live near the Weasleys, so 
perhaps they're family friends. Just as Viktor's interest in Hermione 
is a wake-up call to Ron, so Luna's interest in Ron should light a 
fire under Hermione's butt.

I'm just saying that Hermione may have to take steps to secure her 
territory, as it were...

--JDR (Harry/Ginny, Luna/Neville, etc. Everybody can live happily 
ever after. Really.)




From tcyhunt at earthlink.net  Thu Mar 25 22:25:24 2004
From: tcyhunt at earthlink.net (Tracy Hunt)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 22:25:24 -0000
Subject: getting anything right
Message-ID: <c3vm8k+fgjv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93973

In January, 2003 there were several poles (that remained open until 
the release of OotP) on this site asking for various predictions 
regarding the series so far.  We can go back through those now and 
see how far off base many of us were.  We can also survey the 
scuttled vessels at the bottom of the TBAY with similar results.  
Very few among us have been even a little close on major events and 
still fewer nailed any details.  How does this bode for our current 
theories and speculations?  

Someone (sorry, I cannot remember who at the moment) recently said in 
a post that with all of the information (5 books, 2 schoolbooks, many 
interviews, several chats, etc.) from JKR, it's getting harder
for her to keep us in the dark and that the odds of someone figuring 
it all out are tipping in our favor.  But is that true?  I, for one, 
have been absolutely gobsmacked by most of what I've read in the 
books.  I didn't see it coming until I was practically on top of
it.  Oh, I had glimpses of ideas about a few things ? but for the 
most part, I've fallen hook, line and sinker for all of JKR's
ploys.

Unless I'm way behind the curve here, this would seem to mean
that the vast majority of our speculations are going to be blown out 
of the water.  Or is it just playing the odds that if we speculate 
enough, we'll eventually hit something?

Tcy
blissfully ignorant - as usual




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Thu Mar 25 22:37:42 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 22:37:42 -0000
Subject: Snape, trying very hard not to smile? Or is he just allergic to cats?
In-Reply-To: <c3vfu5+b5u5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3vmvm+phpj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93974

Sue:
> > It is MVHO that Snape is directly in contact with 
> > > Voldemort.  That is what makes him so valuable to the Order.

Eloise:
> > I fear that he is, also.
> >snip 
> > I doubt that Harry would have seen anything that could have 
> > incriminated Snape in any way. Harry already knows he was a DE; 
> > anything he might have heard him say/seen him do could have been 
> > explained in terms of either his not having been converted to 
> > Dumbledore's cause at the time or acting as a double agent later.

Kneasy: 
> I'm not totally up to date with this thread, but your last 
> statement about Harry not seeing anything that might incriminate 
> Snape could be turned round.
 
> Tie it to the previous line where you fear Sevvy is in direct 
> contact with Voldy. Could Harry not buckling down to Occlumency 
> compromise Snape *with Voldy*?
> Does Harry know things about Snape that Sevvy would not want Voldy 
> to know?
> If he does then Occlumency protects not only Harry but Snape too. 
> If that were the case no  wonder Snape is frustrated about Harry's 
> attitude.
> It all depends on how much Snape has told Voldy already.
> It all gets delightfully  convoluted, doesn't it?

Susan:
An excellent point!  If Harry can learn things from Snape's thoughts 
or memories, then they're *in* Harry's thoughts now.  And then if 
Voldy can "access" bits of Harry's thoughts....  Snape better be 
careful to put *lots* of stuff in that penseive--not just 
embarrassing things he doesn't want Potter to know but also intel 
Snape might have discussed w/ DD.

I've probably beaten this horse to death previously, but while I 
*do* understand Snape's frustration w/ Harry--hey, I taught high 
schoolers!--I still think that ***at this point***, if we're right 
that Snape is worried about how Harry's not learning occlumency 
might compromise them BOTH, then he really HAS to find a way to stop 
sneering, stop being nasty, stop playing into Harry's tendency to 
get angry & emotional around him, and HELP him to learn 
Occlumency...HELP him to understand why it is so very VITAL that he 
do so.  I *don't* blame Snape for his frustration w/ Harry, but I 
*do* blame Snape for not trying harder to be a more effective at 
this point.

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 25 22:54:51 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 22:54:51 -0000
Subject: Fields of Magic (was Re: Potions Master Question)
In-Reply-To: <c3u5h7+9dnu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3vnvr+b12t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93975

Neri wrote: <snip>
> 3. Power. Fields that require the wizard to be more powerful are 
> likely to be more distinguished. It seems Potions and Herbology 
> require very little power (in fact, I can't see why a muggle or a 
> squib won't be able to brew many of these potions). OTOH 
> Transfiguration seems to require a lot of magical power.

Carol:
I agree to some extent about Herbology, which seems to bear a
relationship to Potions that resembles the relationship of Charms to
Transfiguration (closely related, partially overlapping fields, with
one being slightly more prestigious than the other). But I'm almost
certain that JKR said in an interview that no Muggle could brew a
Potion even if he or she could somehow acquire the ingredients. You
have to have magical ability to infuse the potion with magical powers.
And I'm guessing that the more powerful the wizard, the more potent
his potions--one more reason for Harry to follow directions and get
the potions right. His will be more potent than, say, Seamus's or
Colin Creevey's. And one more reason why DD would want Snape on his side!

Neri wrote:
<snip> Conjuring especially seems dead useful. I wonder what are its
limitations. For example, could you just conjure a cup of polyjuice
potion out of thin air instead of bothering to brew it? It hardly
seems fair.

Carol:
Clearly you *can't* conjure polyjuice potion or Veritaserum or
whatever out of thin air, or a skilled wizard like DD or Barty Jr.
would do so--and Snape would be out of a job because all his skills
would be useless. And you can't conjure food out of thin air, either,
or Sirius wouldn't have had to live on rats in GoF.

Granted, DD can conjure a comfortable chair out of thin air, but it
probably disappears when he's through with it, just as leprechaun gold
disappears after a few hours. JKR explains in another interview that
there are limitations to magic, and one of them is the sort of things
that can be conjured. (IMO, The Room of Requirement operates on the
same principle. Whatever you need is conjured out of thin air, but
disappears the moment you leave the room.) A potion, OTOH, will stay
on the shelf in its bottle until its needed.

Neri:
> <snip> I think the order of status (again, not the order of actual 
> importance, which is something else) is approximately:
> Transfiguration > DADA > Charms > Potions and Herbology > other 
> subjects.

Carol:
Whereas I would say Potions and Transfiguration, approximately equal)
> Charms and Herbology (approximately equal) > DADA > other subjects,
both for the order of importance (which is what I was arguing) and of
status (or DADA would be given to one of the Heads of Houses).

But you could be right that status and importance are two different
things, and if DADA really is the most prestigious position (despite
the less than impressive teachers it's been assigned to so far), then
I can see Snape really wanting the position and resenting anyone else
who held it, especially those who are clearly less qualified than he
is to teach it.
 
> Neri:
> Just an opinion (I thought shipping was the touchy subject:-)

Carol:
You forgot that Potions is associated with Snape, the ultimate touchy
subject! ;-)




From averyhaze at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 25 22:03:18 2004
From: averyhaze at hotmail.com (onnanokata)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 22:03:18 -0000
Subject: A Wake-Up Call?? (SHIP)
In-Reply-To: <c3vhnc+imn0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3vkv6+7odi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93976

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pennstgrle" <jrc241 at p...> 
wrote:
The Sergeant Majorette says
 
Ron does not have a "crush" on Hermione, and I believe that's the 
whole point. A "crush" is the kind of purely hormonal reaction an 
adolescent male has to a girl like Fleur or any conventionally 
pretty female. We're meant to see Ron's friendship with Hermione 
evolve into something more grown-up, and we, along with Harry, 
Hermione and  everybody else in the world, see it long before Ron 
himself does.

Remember the non-hug at the end of the CoS movie? That was 
deliberate  foreshadowing of the unresolved sexual tension between 
Ron/Hermione that JKR knew we'd be seeing in the future.

Really, neither Ron nor Hermione are "crushable". But each is the 
kind of person the other kind of person grows up to marry.

 
Jaimee asks:
 
What do you mean by "Luna is to Hermione as Viktor is to Ron: a 
wake-up call"?
 
I understand how Viktor can be a wake-up call to Ron because Viktor 
made Ron feel jealous and become aware of feeling for Hermione (and 
I do mean *aware*! I do not mean that he understands what he's 
feeling) But I would love it if you (or anyone on the site) would 
ellaborate more on drawing such a parallel between Viktor/Ron and 
Luna/Harry...
 


 
Dharma replies:

I think that Majorette is trying to say, that Viktor and Luna serve 
the same purpose in Hermione and Ron's relationship.  Viktor and 
Luna are the first characters to openly express attraction to 
Hermione and Ron.  Therefore, just as Ron is learning through his 
feelings of jealousy that Hermione is growing up to become a 
desirable young woman, Hermione may also learn that Ron is becoming 
a desirable young man by being forced to cope with Luna's less than 
subtle behavior where Ron is concerned.  The wake up call would be 
the knowledge that other people are interested in each of them.

If I'm wrong Majorette, please do not hesitate to let me know.  But, 
that is what I got out of your post

--Dharma




From BrwNeil at aol.com  Thu Mar 25 23:13:03 2004
From: BrwNeil at aol.com (BrwNeil at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 18:13:03 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] getting anything right
Message-ID: <121.2cb68b05.2d94c17f@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93977

In a message dated 3/25/2004 5:28:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
tcyhunt at earthlink.net writes:

Unless I'm way behind the curve here, this would seem to mean
that the vast majority of our speculations are going to be blown out 
of the water.  Or is it just playing the odds that if we speculate 
enough, we'll eventually hit something?

Tcy


I agree with you, take relationships.  Shippers point to scenes and say this 
has to be or that has to be.  I say nothing has to be.  Rowlings at this point 
could take relationships anywhere she wants and there is canon to support it. 
 I think the only thing that is clear is that somehow love is going to play a 
part in the defeat of Voldemort.

That doesn't mean Harry has to have a girlfriend.  Harry right now loves both 
Ron and Hermione.  The love the trio has for each other could very well be 
the love that defeats Voldemort.  Actually I think for that love to remain as 
strong as it is, none of them can be in a strong relationship especially not 
with another member of the trio, maybe after they finish school.

Actually I think the series will end without, Ron, Harry or Hermione being in 
a relationship.  I'm expecting only one relationship and that is 
Neville/Ginny.  


Neil


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net  Thu Mar 25 23:20:36 2004
From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 17:20:36 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
References: <c3vh3i+u1m4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000f01c412bf$c7767820$05030f04@dslverizon.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 93978

{Witch Writer}
    I have been following all the mails on this topic and it has been
very intriguing to me, indeed. I would like to address it in two
part, first focusing on the main content of this topis: Lupin's
resentment towards Harry and secondly Snapes issues.

Lupin does not resent Harry at all. He merely is stern and authoratative and
does not loose his sight and mind like Sirius. He addresses the problem and
calmly handles the issues. He does suggest that he would rather talk to
Snape, because Snape would only mock at Sirius and also Sirius was involved
in disgracing Snape in the school
ground. Lupin, did not participate(neither did he stop it). Lupin thus my
opinion is not atall resentful towards Harry.

{Silverthorne}

I also do not think Lupin resents Harry. Actually, I doubt he resents very
many, if any, people at all. Lupin strikes me as the man who follows a path
a lot of other people would only give lip service to--that of non-judgement,
making an effort to understand *all* sides of a story, trying to mediate
instead of aggravate a situation, and so forth. In short, the man is a
pacifist in all but the strictest sense of the word (He isn't a 'true'
pacifist, though, because he *will* defend both himself and others). He is
the ideal that a lot of people wish this world as a whole would develop
into, and would like to think they themselves are capable of. So, resent
Harry? No, I don't think so.

I also think that out of all the four, Lupin is the only one Snape *would*
listen to in present time, if he were to listen to anyone, simply because
Remus at least would attempt to stay pleasant and polite with him. Note that
although Severus treats Remus with suspicion when they are in the same room,
he at least is polite to Lupin in return. It may be grudgingly, with
mistrust in every fiber of his being, but he is still polite. That doesn't
change until they're in the shack and Snape is convinced that what he is
doing is 'right' in regards to dealing with the three remaining marauders.
(Yes, I know, we can argue his motives there til we're blue in the face, but
he *was* polite. At least allow for that)....

Anyhow, back to Lupin...

I also would like to believe that at some point Lupin may have even defended
Snape to his friendsduring the school years...at least until it became clear
that James and Sirius both weren't about to back down off their favorite
chew toy (As well as realizing Snape  a) would not walk away from being
picked on and b) was going to defend himself....sometimes you just can't
keep people from fighting who want to fight. Remus was smart enough to see
this, thus the regret despite not stepping in.).

Needless to say, Lupin is one of my favorite characters as well...



{Witch Writer}

Secondly: Snape Attitude.
   I have many things against Snape. I am sorry and apologize in hurting the
Snape fans, but I assure you I really like his character as well. But that
definitley does not stop me from having issues with his attitude. >>Snips
the issues....we all know them by now, more or less...;)<<


{Silverthorne}

Hey, no problem. It doesn't hurt, but it does get the 'defender' part of me
up and going.

 I like Snape, I'll defend him, but that doesn't keep me from knowing he has
an attitude, possesses an acid tongue, and can be amazingly immature in
certain situations. I know he's an ass--I never denied that, and will never
doubt that he is. BUt you know, not everyone can be someone people like. ^^

My problem comes from people who bash Snape and yet cannot see those very
same traits in Sirius or other chracters in the books. To me, it's a
hypocritical treatment. Both men have had hard, abusive, unhappy lives that
very likely screwed them both in the head. But because one of them  loves
the main character and the other appearently doesn't, only the one that
'hates' the main character consistently gets bashed for being arrogant,
cruel, thoughtless, bullying and immature (and yet both men exhibit all
these traits--it's only thier target that differs). Just because one of them
'limits' himself to 'grownups' and 'evil creatures' doesn't make it any more
right. In fact, I think it's worse because it really *IS* Hypocritcal at
that point. ('Oh, you're mean, nasty, evil and old, so it's okay if I treat
you this way, even though I'd scream holy hell if I saw you treat some kid
this way'...Say what? Isn;t this person a being who should be respected as
well...? Nevermind, self righteousness only extends to certain levels, and
rarely to the 'enemy').

They're two sides of the same coin, but people can't seem to get past the
'cool' packaging on Sirius to see that. Great, he loves Harry and the like,
very commendable--but look at how he treats Kreacher! Is it any wonder the
house elf turns on him?  He bullied other kids(not just Snape) in school
because he *could* bully them, right along with James--Lupin even admits to
that. He baits Snape in OotP (and yes, Snape baits right back, but the point
is Snape is not the *only* 'adult' engaging in immature behaivior in the
scene! Talk about immature--he still holds onto old grudges that shouldn't
even matter anymore! Geez, Sirius, just walk away for gods sake!) but does
that get acknowledged? No. Somehow, Sirius is 'okay' with what he does
according to the audience...Snape? Nope. No go. Total ass, so he *must* be
the only person 'wrong' in this scenario.

 So to me, it isn't that I think Snape is all wonderful...it's that I think
people dump *all* the nasty crap on *him* and refuse to see that other
characters have some of the same faults--including the beloved 'good guys'.
Just because we haven't seen Snape with a loved one, doens't mean he's
incapable of the same caring acts that Sirius has exhibited towards Harry.
What it means is that we haven't seen who Snape cares about in that way yet.
Same thing with his 'immature' reactions. Okay, so he freaks out. So does
Sirius, sometimes with as little cause

And if you think trying to be a spy doesn't mess with your head as much as
dealing with Dementors, then you might want to study up on spying, the
techniques used bopth in training a spy and what gets used on the feild
afterwards, and what they have to do to thier own thought processess in
order to be sucessful at their jobs. There's a reason they burn out
quickly...there's a reason they have regular pysch evals too (something else
I doubt Severus has access to).

Not to mention that Rowling has hinted that Snape *may* (--this word is here
for those of you who think Snape is not the boy in those pensieve scenes)
was abused as a child himself. Okay, so now he has a tie to Harry in being
another abused child--but one that it seems did not get 'rescued' from his
life like Sirius and Harry did...and you don't think that affected him as
much as the Dursely's affected Harry, or Azkaban affected Sirius? No? Sirius
is just as much an adult as Severus, with the same capabilities to think out
his actions despite his feelings before he reacts (which is what everyone is
expecting Severus to do, without fail, if he's ever to 'redeem' himself in
their eyes), but that doesn't stop Sirius from engaging in violent,
thoughtless, immature acts any more than it stops Severus. But hey, it;'s
Sirius...so it must be okay.

Hypocracy yet again!

Don't get me wrong, I actaully like Harry *and* Sirius, for all that I tend
to unload on them when subjects like this come up...but the thing is, I'm
unloading because someone somewhere seems to have forgotten that Severus
shares a lot of the same experinces that those two characters have had. Yes,
Severus grew up shaped differently than they did, he isn't all light and
sweetness. Then again, it would seem he didn't get the same 'outs' along the
way as he was growing up, so it isn't like he had similar chances to apply
himself towards 'changing his attitude' to a more positive one. So to me,
it's no wonder he's the way he is...and yes, because of it, I have a harder
time condemning him than those who have 'huge issues' with him and how he
acts. I suppose my stance is this:

If you can give Harry a break because he's 'young and has lost everything'.
And you can forgive Sirius's faults because 'he went through hell and has
been in Azkaban'

Then, at least try to give Snape a little credit for not being as bad as he
could have been, considering his own life experiences (what we know of them)

Quite frankly, if that he was the boy in the pensieve (and I do indeed
beleive he was), then he came from an abusive household--one that likely was
a Dark Wizard household since he arrived at Hogwarts already knowing Dark
Art spells. He then went on to be an unpopular kid at school, definetly
picked on by the 'In' crowd (the Marauders), and therefore, as is usual in
such situations, probably by other kids as well who would have followed the
Marauder's lead, and then finally on to being a DE--and from little we've
seen of THAT culture, it's not exactly a gentle balm to the soul to be part
of that little clique either. One little mess up and old Voldy really takes
a few chunks out of you.

Now, add to that as he 'grows up', walking away from the DE to join the good
guys--getting marked as a 'bad guy' anyway during a trial (Dumbly may have
gotten him out of that mess, but it likely Tarnished Snape's rep for good,
no matter what he does now), having to essentially lie to your former
'friends' in order to do your job and help your new 'friends' and
allies...and so on and so forth. It may not be as spectacular to watch, but
it leaves a scar just as deep (if not deeper) than the ones Harry and Sirius
carry around.

And yes, he gets harsh with Harry--I won't deny that. I *do* have trouble
calling it abuse for two reasons--one, I'm a survivor of the RL thing--both
mental and physical. Two, for all the scathing nasty things Snape may do
(and except for a thrown jar of cockraoches, it's all been easily ignored
words and nothing else), it really does not affect Harry one bit, other than
to make him hate Snape. It's rather hard to be abused when it has no affect.
Harry sure as hell doesn't 'enable' Snape, so for me, it's not abuse.
Annoying and pissy, yes, but not abusive.

Anyway, sorry if I went off, but I feel that really, the viewpoint is rather
lopsided. It's a lot easier to relate to the children and heros of the
story...far far harder to relate to the pissy, underdog 'antihero'. I just
wish more people were willing to give as much for Snape as they are for
Sirius, Harry, any of the others.

In other words, try using Lupin's view and see it a little differently...and
with a little compassion for *all* the players...

Silverthorne/Anne
**Spazzing while Defending the Snark. Sorry for the tirade...^^;**



*************************************

Anne/Silverthorne
Silverthorne.Dragon at verizon.net (Nights and Weekends)
Anne-TMC-RCVG.Campbell at tenetheath.com (6am-3pm American Central, Mon-Fri.)








From willsonkmom at msn.com  Thu Mar 25 21:49:26 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 21:49:26 -0000
Subject: Snape outing Harry as Parselmouth (was Re: If DD knows, then why..?)
In-Reply-To: <c3vj6j+ogiq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3vk56+o94h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93979

snipped first part of post
> Eustace_Scrubb happened to have the book at hand:
>>snipping canon quote about duel<
 
> What I want to know is how many 2nd years can do a competent
> serpensortia?

Potioncat:
This is a good question.  While I am no fan of Draco's, he appears 
to be a very competent young wizard. Some think that Snape "gives" 
him good marks, but I tend to think he earns them.  What Snape does 
is to ignore his misbehavior.
Potioncat  




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 25 23:27:23 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 23:27:23 -0000
Subject: Snape and the Order
In-Reply-To: <c3ula1+irpl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3vpsr+2nek@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93980

> Potioncat:
<snip> 
> I began adding to this post, continuing in my agreement with Debbie 
> that Snape began teaching after the year started. I also used as 
> canon Sirius' surprise that Snape is a teacher at Hogwarts.  But, 
> Carol made a good point (as usual) that there was no reason for 
> Sirius to know. After all, how many young men in their 20's keep 
> tabs on the faculty of their old school? And we all believe that no 
> one in the Order knew about Snape. So now I'm on the fence yet again.
> 
> I can accept something like this:  Some of the DE's are placed in
the MoM. So when an opening or two come up at Hogwarts, Snape suggests 
> he apply as a way of keeping tabs on DD. He's already working for 
> DD, although LV doesn't know it. This gives Snape protection 
> (Hogwarts magic) and better access to DD.  Shortly after school 
> starts LV makes his move and gets blasted and Snape continues at 
> Hogwarts in anticipation of LV's eventual return.
> 
> I just realized that this sounds just like the double-agent theory, 
> which I don't agree with, but I'm not sure how to explain the 
> difference.

Carol:
I do think he was a double agent, but it doesn't really matter here. I
agree that Snape discovered (or was informed of) an opening at
Hogwarts before the term began and was at Hogwarts as a teacher when
the murder at Godric's Hollow occurred (and of course remained there
afterwards). I hadn't thought about the MoM connection. I had
envisioned Snape reading in the Daily Prophet about the death of the
Hogwarts DADA teacher, checking the help wanted ads, and discovering
that the position was open. Then, as you say, he could have suggested
to LV that teaching there would be an ideal way of spying on DD, and
LV would have responded favorably to the idea, not knowing that Snape
was already working with DD.

Alternatively, and I have no canon whatever to back this up, but it's
another possibility that has occurred to me: Maybe LV arranged the
death of the DADA teacher (having Malfoy or someone AK him over the
summer holiday) specifically to make that position available to Snape,
who naturally would jump at the chance to be safely at Hogwarts with
DD, away from the Muggle-baiting and other disreputable activities of
the Death Eaters. He would, of course, pretend to be spying for LV but
really be working for DD, just as in the first scenario. In both
cases, Snape would be given the Potions position instead of the DADA
position he applied for, with the DADA position presumably going to
the old Potions teacher.

Any reason why you don't like the double agent theory? What would you
propose in its place?

Carol, who is just speculating here but is interested in other
people's reactions and alternative scenarios 




From vam0609 at aol.com  Thu Mar 25 23:26:06 2004
From: vam0609 at aol.com (kuligkutig)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 23:26:06 -0000
Subject: Why does Ron have a crush on Hermione? (SHIP)
In-Reply-To: <c3s6d0+qdqp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3vpqe+9s9p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93981

Robert:

> Why does Ron have a crush on Hermione?  She's "plain" looking, so 
> it's not her looks.  It's not jealousy since Harry hasn't shown 
> interest in her (or vice versa).  Her main character traits seem to 
> be that she is bookish and bossy ? why would he be attracted to 
> that?  


My take on this is that men, unconsciously, are attracted to women 
who reminds them of their mothers. As you have said yourself, 
Hermione is plain looking, bookish and bossy. Kind of reminds me of 
Molly. From JKR's description of Molly, she seem plain looking too. 
She's bookish because it is impled that she had read all the works of 
Gilderoy and always consults books in her everyday chores. Very bossy 
too as we see how she tried to control all her children, even the 
adult ones, like Bill(constantly asking him to cut his hair) and the 
twins and of course her husband, Arthur(I remembered the scene in the 
hospital when Mr. Weasley was trying to hide the fact that he tried 
Muggle stitches for his wound). 

Vampire - who's curious if there are wizard dentists, Ron could be 
one and Hermione will see her Dad in Ron






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 25 23:55:53 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 23:55:53 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore's bad descisions?
In-Reply-To: <c3u2qd+r1gn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3vri9+r6t5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93982

Lynnette wrote:
I still think it is odd that Professor Dumbledore saw fit to TAKE 
> > Harry, disregarding James and Lily's descision to appoint Sirius
as Harry's guardian.  If Sirius had had Harry, he may not have gone 
> > after Peter the rat and been framed.
> 
> Earendil wrote:
> I suppose Dumbledore's decision could be explained by the protection 
> we learned Harry could have at Privet Drive, a protection he could 
> have had nowhere else, not with Sirius or with Dumbledore himself.
> 
> I don't have the books with me and I can't check, but I think Sirius 
> went after Peter immediately after finding out about the Potters 
> deaths. He gave his motorcycle to Hagrid so he could take Harry away, 
> this shows Sirius *knew* Harry was being taken away and wasn't 
> opposed to it (maybe because he knew Harry would be safer at the 
> Dursleys). In a way he gave his agreement as Harry's godfather.
> 
> And considering Sirius' temper, I think he would have gone after 
> Peter with or without Harry.

Carol:
Dumbledore thought that Sirius had been the Secret Keeper and had
betrayed the Potters. That's why he let him go to Azkaban and why he
tried to protect Harry from him throughout PoA. He was certainly not
going to give baby Harry to the man who betrayed his parents,
godfather or no. I think DD anticipated that Sirius might ask Hagrid
for Harry and that he told Hagrid not to give Harry to Sirius or
anyone else under any circumstances. (Probably DD didn't tell Hagrid
why he had to refuse Sirius. There's no indication that Hagrid knew
about Sirius's supposed guilt, though he probably did know about his
tendency to rashness and his hot temper.) And, of course, as Earendil
pointed out, DD had already made the arrangements involving the blood
protection at the Dursleys, which would be useless if Harry went to
Sirius or anyone else.

I agree with Earendil that Sirius knew he'd be a very unsafe guardian
for Harry, especially if he murdered Peter as he apparently intended,
so he accepted DD's arrangements, even giving (lending?) Hagrid his
motorbike to carry them out. In a way it's too bad that Hagrid didn't
know about the Secret Keeper arrangement because he would have angrily
confronted Sirius and Sirius would just has angrily have defended
himself. Instead he went off to murder Peter and, even though his plan
failed, ruin his own life.

Carol




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 26 00:42:12 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 00:42:12 -0000
Subject: Dumbledores lack of surprise + my point !
In-Reply-To: <c3uu52+gsu4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3vu94+10sph@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93983

-Inge wrote:
> Ah, so stupid of me ... I totally forgot to put my main point about 
> Dumbledore's lack of surprise (knowledge) in my previous post.
> To continue from where I left:
>> Dumbledore: "But she (Petunia) took you <snip> and in doing so, she
sealed the charm I placed upon you. Your mother's sacrifice made the
bond of blood the strongest shield I could give you."
> 
> Ok - so how DID Dumbledore know anything about Lily's sacrifice at 
> that time? Harry was a little more than a year old and the only 
> person to tell what had happened at his home that night. Not a
chance. Alas! Someone else must have been in the house to witness what 
> happened and told Dumbledore that Lily actually gave her life for 
> Harry. Who? 
> And so, Dumbledore must have lied to Minerva when he told her that
he didn't know how Harry had survived the attack.

Carol:
I'm not sure about this, but I think DD still doesn't know exactly how
Harry survived (it couldn't be the self-sacrifice alone or dozens of
other people could have been saved from AKs by similar sacrifices).
What he's referring to in the passage you quote is how Lily's
self-sacrifice enabled *him* to protect Harry at the Dursleys'. Note
his words: "Your mother's sacrifice made the bond of blood the
strongest shield *I* could give you." That shield also protected Harry
from Quirrell. But it *didn't* protect him from the AK in the first
place because it was placed on Harry *after* his mother's death.
Something other than DD's blood charm must have deflected the AK.

I've already argued that the AK was deflected by a charm that Lily
herself put on Harry, which DD doesn't yet know about but will somehow
discover in Book 7, when we're supposed to learn something very
important about Lily. If that's the case, DD wasn't lying to
McGonagall. He really didn't--and still doesn't--know exactly how
Harry survived.

As for someone else being in the house, I'm not sure. I still don't
understand how DD or anyone else deduced that LV wasn't dead if his
body was found (he says that he left it). Wouldn't whoever found it
have thought he was just dead, immortality spells or not? And if it
wasn't there, how did anyone know for certain that he was the
murderer? *We* know because of Harry's Dementor encounters and the
graveyard scene, and DD was anticipating an attack because of the
Prophecy and tried to prevent it with the Secret Keeper suggestion,
but how could he prove it was LV without a body (or, if there was a
body, how could he convince others that LV wasn't dead?)

But I'm getting off topic. I just wanted to state that it *is*
possible, even probable, given JKR's view of DD, that he isn't lying.
I think that he, like us, is putting together bits of information
together as he finds them, just as he's still deducing the properties
of the scar. And JKR, in her sneaky way, will keep the full knowledge
of what really happened from Dumbledore and from us until the end of
Book 7.

Carol




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 26 01:40:56 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 01:40:56 -0000
Subject: Horse Feathers
In-Reply-To: <c3uvmj+s29a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c401n8+kn0i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93984

 Kneasy:
> What you are suggesting is that Ollivander performs the same
function as the Sorting Hat - "Oh, Slytherinish - must give him one of
this sort; > Potter- must have a powerful wand." OK, that's an
exaggeration, but the passage above reads more like Fan Fiction than
canon based suppositions. Nowhere does Ollivander say that the wands
that Harry and Voldy have are particularly powerful.

Carol:
Okay, I admit my scenario was a bit fan fictionish. Let me just quote
some canon instead:

"Mr. Ollivander touched the lightning scar on Harry's forehead with a
long, white finger. 'I'm sorry to say I sold the wand that did it,' he
said softly. Yew. *Powerful wand, very powerful,* and in the wrong
hands. . . well, if I'd known what that wand was going out into the
world to do. . . .'" (SS Am. ed. 83).

So Ollivander does say that Voldemort's wand is "very powerful."  If
Harry's and LV's wands share a core, wouldn't Harry's wand also be
"very powerful"?

Kneasy wrote:
What he does imply is that if this wand suits Harry, then he expects
great things of him because its counterpart belonged to Voldy and
*Voldy* is powerful.

Carol:
But when Ollivander says, "the wand chooses the wizard" and "I think
we must expect great things of you" (SS 85), the wand has already
shown that it suits Harry, or in Ollivander's terms, has already
"chosen" him--as no other wand Ollivander offered to him did. So
rather than expecting great things of Harry because his wand's brother
belongs to Voldemort, he could mean that this wand, like its brother,
is very powerful, and consequently suited to a wizard who is
(potentially) capable of great things. I think the wand senses latent
power in Harry, just as the "very powerful" brother wand sensed it in
the future Voldemort, and that's why it chose him.

Quick question: What do you think Ollivander is measuring if he isn't
"taking the measure" of the students to see what kind of wand would
suit them? Why have the magic tape measure at all if it serves no purpose?

Kneasy: 
> It may well have power, but power comes in different guises and the 
> fact that Ollivander equates Harry with Voldy is an uncomfortable 
> thought. "We must expect great things from you, Mr Potter....After
all, HWMNBN did great things - terrible, yes, but great." It goes
along with the Prophecy "...mark him as his equal". 
> Equal does not mean opposite. It means the same. 
> But in what respect?

Carol:
I'm not sure, but it sounds as if we're actually in agreement here.
Equal power but different choices? Tom had great potential but used it
for evil. Harry, whom he has marked as his equal (giving him the
powers that the brother wand sensed?) must also make choeces, using
his powers, channeled through that powerful wand, for good.

Carol




From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 26 01:43:30 2004
From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (Ms Mo Me)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 17:43:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Dumbledore's lack of surprise
In-Reply-To: <1080232661.8959.64945.m16@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040326014330.74111.qmail@web13507.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93985

Inge Wrote:

PS p15 uk edition.
McGonagall: "..... but how in the name of heaven did
Harry Survive?"
"We can only guess," said Dumbledore. We may never
know."

PS p216 uk edition.
Harry: "Voldemort said he only killed my mother
because she tried to 
stop him killing me. (snip) Why couldn't Quirrel touch
me?"
Dumbledore (not hesitating before he answers): "Your
mother died to 
save you. If there is one thing Voldemort cannot
understand, it is 
love. He didn't realise that love as powerful as your
mother's for 
you leaves its own mark. Not a scar, no visible
sign... to have been 
loved so deeply, even though the person who loved us
is gone, will 
give us some protection for ever (snip)."

So - until Harry tells him that Lily died to protect
him, Dumbledore 
had no idea how Harry survived. He couldn't have known
either - since 
he was not at Godrics Hollow that night.
What made me wonder is how quickly Dumbledore is to
give Harry the 
answer about the 'Love Protection' Lily gave him.
 <snip>
Inge


I think DD knew Lily died to save HP.  But it is
repeatedly worded in all of the books, and from Harry
himself, that they don't know HOW he survived, even
though he knows his mother died to save him.  They
know there was ancient magic because of his mother. 
But, they don't know how it works nor why LV didn't
die completely.  
They don't know HOW the ancient magic works, to a
certain extent.  As stated in book 4, HP is the ONLY
survivor of the AK curse.  So, while they all have
clues about Lily saving HP, they don't know HOW or WHY
it worked fully.

I think DD didn't know the full details until HP told
him.  But, I DO think he had some idea.

~Mo

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html



From inky_quill at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 26 01:49:37 2004
From: inky_quill at hotmail.com (Julie)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 01:49:37 -0000
Subject: Stopping Occlumency (was: Lupin's resentment)
In-Reply-To: <c3vdin+9vpa@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4027h+ij3g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93986

"potioncat" wrote:
> There are a couple of events that even I cannot defend or explain.  
> One is when he makes the comment about Hermione's teeth (talk about 
> the kettle calling the cauldron rusty!)
> The other is when he stops occlumency with Harry.

I'm curious about the ending of the occlumency lessons.  I never took 
that scene as meaning the end of the Occlumency lessons was solely 
Snape's fault.  I've seen this comment posted a couple of times that 
Snape refused to continue teaching Harry occlumency.  But I'm 
wondering: is it actually cannon that Snape actually **refused** to 
continue teaching Harry occlumency?  Or are we taking Harry's words 
at face value and assuming its solely Snape's doing.  After all Harry 
is more than happy to discontinue the lessons, and to keep dreaming 
of the door.  

Yes, Snape was utterly enraged to find Harry sneaking a peak at a 
humiliating episode of Snape's youth. But Snape doesn't actually 
say 'that's it you sneaky little brat, this is the last lesson I'll 
ever give you, not only do you not practice but you've invaded my 
personal memories. I'm not going to teach you any more.'  What Snape 
does say, in a moment of enraged stress, is "Get out, get out, I 
don't want to ever see you in this office again!" (OotP US ed. 650).  
Snape doesn't actually say 'I won't teach you,' and he doesn't ban 
him from the potions classroom, only from his office, which would be 
his sanctuary and private lair.  And Harry has just violated its 
security, in the brief moments he was alone there.  Snape doesn't 
*do* anything to Harry, he just throws him out (which might have been 
for the best since, not liking Harry to begin with, I'm sure as 
enraged as he was he was tempted to retaliate).

So Harry flees the office and a very angry Snape.  Its not the first 
time he's seen Snape angry.  But he is confused and somewhat shocked 
by the new conflicting evidence that James and Sirius weren't 
perfect.  And Snape is a reminder of that, Snape is their victim.

The first person Harry mentions the end of lessons to is Hermione, 
but he doesn't say Snape won't teach him, he says that Snape said 
Harry was fine on his own now that he knew how(p. 651).  Harry tells 
Remus and Sirius (p. 672) that Snape "told me he'd never teach me 
Occlumency again..."  (which isn't really what was literally said). 
While those two react with alarm (or anger in Sirius' case) and 
insist the lessons continue, they don't provide Harry with any real 
answers or ways to understand James'& Sirius' bullying or Snape's 
victimization.  Harry much latter tells Dumbledore (p 833) 
that "Snape stopped giving me Occlumency lessons!...He threw me out 
of his office!"  To which Dumbledore replies "I am aware of it."  

I suspect that Dumbledore's awareness might play a part in the end of 
the lessons.  

After the blow up and Snape's banning him from his office, both Harry 
and Snape are at fault. Neither one seize the initative to continue.  
In the short term Snape gives Harry the silent treatment in potions 
class --essentially avoidance -- which seems to my mind the way an 
embarassed Snape might react. He's supposed to be the adult and he 
totally lost it and tossed Potter out. Also: 1)Snape's probably 
berating himself for leaving Harry, whom he doesn't trust anyway, 
alone in his office with the pensive; 2)Although Snape's forbidden 
gossip, if taunted Harry would react and spill to the other students 
what he saw, embarrasing Snape further; 3) Snape might realize that 
he's still so angry that he doesn't dare deal with Harry; A time-out 
might just be the best thing for both of them, allowing each to cool 
down.

And Harry doesn't ask for lessons despite the danger and Hermione and 
Lupin and Sirius's urging.  But there's a another possibility: Snape 
might have spoken with Dumbledore ('members of the order have more 
efficent means of communication') about what happened (or Remus Lupin 
who said he would).  Dumbledore told Harry at the end that he knew 
the lessons had stopped, despite the need for Harry to learn and 
practice occlumency.  And Snape is pretty clear that Harry's not 
practicing.  So Dumbledore might have allowed the pause or end to 
stand.

I'm not looking to make excuses for Snape, because the Professor 
definately dropped the ball by not insisting that Harry appear again 
for a lesson--perhaps somewhere away from the temptation of the 
pensive, and perhaps after a short breather and time to simmer down. 
But it was only six weeks before the O.W.L.s and the adults would 
have know that Harry would be busy preparing for the tests.

Dumbledore had arranged for the lessons and tried to impress on Harry 
during the abortive raid at Hogwarts their importance. Since 
Dumbledore is always watching out for Harry, I have a hard time 
believing that he couldn't have ordered Snape to resume them, after 
all it was for Harry's (and hence everyone else's) safety.  

Dumbledore admits to making some mistakes by trying to protect 
Harry's happiness.  He has come to love Harry and wants to spare him 
as much as possible despite the prophecy.  Dumbledore might also
want to spare Severus Snape, whom he has also watched 
grow up.  Dumbledore tells Harry that Snape's "wounds run too deep 
for the healing" and who was "[unable to] overcome his feelings about 
[Harry's] father" ? (p.833-34)  

Harry says the lessons are difficult, they make his scar hurt worse, 
and he is brimming with anger and suspicions about Prof. Snape's true 
loyalties (egged on by Ron), pretty much thinks he hates Snape (after 
Sirius' death he really does) but Snape also finds being around Harry 
stressful first because of the past with James, and now probably due 
to Harry being Harry. 
 
Inky/Julie
who suspects that disappointing Dumbledore will be another of Snape's 
wounds.




From jenjar2001 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 25 19:04:49 2004
From: jenjar2001 at yahoo.com (jenjar2001)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 19:04:49 -0000
Subject: Headless Podmore was: Has anyone noticed this?
In-Reply-To: <c3uig4+hb23@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3vagh+6jdm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93987

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Berit Jakobsen" 
<belijako at o...> wrote:
> Jenjar wrote:
> <snip>Sturgis was killed before he was able to say anything about 
his 
> experience in the DOM.  
> 
> Berit replies:
> 
> He was? I thought it was Bode who was killed (by a pot plant at St. 
> Mungo's) and that Podmore was sent to Azkaban (still being alive).
> 
> Berit
> http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html


YIKES! You are totally right Berit!  Oops...feeling very 
embarrassed...should have checked my book before sending that post.  
Ok. So, if Podmore is in Azkaban, and alive, does Patrick know or 
care?  Could he visit Azkaban?  Will Sturgis' name be cleared now?  
Not sure I can see real significance yet in Patrick Podmore's 
existence but I'm convinced it isn't just a coincidence.  Maybe 
someone else who's better at this than me has some ideas?

Jenjar  




From witchwriter_no1 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 26 01:55:39 2004
From: witchwriter_no1 at yahoo.com (witchwriter_no1)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 01:55:39 -0000
Subject: Animagi despised by Dark Wizards? (Was: Sirius/Tonks)
Message-ID: <c402ir+9f2o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93988

> Mandy wrote:
> Well explained Carol. Sorry I had to snip. 
> 
> I would just like to add the idea that being an Animagus is an 
> ability that is looked down upon by the Purebloods.  
> 
> The ability to transform into an animal may take great skill, but 
> live any part of your life as an animal, could be looked down upon 
as 
> gross and discussing by those who look down upon animals as less 
than 
> human. I propose that 
> the Purebloods most definitely despise Animagi as wizards who 
choose 
> to use their skill to transform themselves in to animals.
> 
> Do we have any examples of any Dark Wizard animagi other than 
Peter 
> Pettigrew?  And Pettigrew is definitely looked down upon by the DE 
> and Voldemort.
> 
> I think Bellatrix was using it as an insult. The 'Animagus Black!' 
> The one member of her family who dares use magic to transform 
himself 
> into an animal!  Its use is akin to Bellatrix using the expression 
> the 'Blood Traitor Black.'  Or in the case of her sister 
the 'Muggle 
> Lover Black.'


Witch Writer:
     It was interesting to read many had feelings and thoughts about 
what Bellatrix statement was on the dreadful night at MoM. Bellatrix 
was fighting Black and had only recently found out(through Lucius 
Malfoy's recognition in the platform 9 3/4). She was sarcastic and 
was just saying Animagus Black of a Matter of fact(ofcourse). She 
despises Black as he is a Pure Blood and Family Traitor and does not 
believe in the pure rights of pure blood. I doubt her not liking 
animagus. The DE's and LV dont particulary like Pettigrew not 
because 
he is an animagus, but because he is not sharp, has no extrodinary 
skills, isnt brave and survives in the shadow and strength of other 
superior ones. 

     Harry sees events in Oop from inside a snake. This is not 
Nagini, as Harry experiences the reading or understanding of LV's 
emotions and feelings. This means only on thing. The snake if LV. 
That is very obvious that a great(evil though, but still very 
powerful and great) wizard like LV will have the powers to be an 
Animagus. I am very sure that LV himself is an animagus and the DE's 
dont have anything against the ability to be one. 

     This comes to the conclusion that Bellatrix was using it to 
only 
point out that she was fighting with Sirius Black and was not 
pleasured in calling him with his full name. Sirius is not only an 
animagus, but also unregistered. She could have been angry he was 
able to get out Azkaban with an ability unknown that Black possessed 
and She did not. I am sure there is nothing to look much deeper into 
what she said and the animagus word would have just come out due to 
the constant discussions on finding Black was an animagus and he 
used 
it to get out of azkaban and keep himself out of the sight of Mom. 
It 
would have been just a reminder to everyone that Black, the criminal 
was an unregistered animagus and thus secreted himself from human 
eyes. 

Mystery unfolds and refolds...unknown to many
Signing off ...
Harry's Secret Girl Friend - Witch Writer







From pt4ever at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 25 21:46:25 2004
From: pt4ever at yahoo.com (JoAnna)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 21:46:25 -0000
Subject: Fields of Magic (was Re: Potions Master Question)
In-Reply-To: <c3utkf+1b73@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3vjvh+9qts@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93989

Neri:
> 3. Power. Fields that require the wizard to be more powerful are
> likely to be more distinguished. It seems Potions and Herbology
> require very little power (in fact, I can't see why a muggle or a
> squib won't be able to brew many of these potions). OTOH
> Transfiguration seems to require a lot of magical power.

Potioncat:
<<<I see this view as a real mistake. If Potions did not take power,
Lupin could make his own wolfsbane potion. Just as not all adult
wizards can form a corporeal patronus, not all can make certain
potions. Just because you do not wave a wand or mutter an
incantation does not mean it is not powerful magic.>>>

I agree.  Remember what Hermione said in PS/SS, once she and Harry 
were confronted with the seven potions and the riddle (this is 
quoted from memory as I don't have my book handy; I believe it's 
from the chapter entitled "Through the Trapdoor"):

"Brilliant!"  Hermione said. "This isn't magic - it's logic.  A lot 
of the greatest wizards haven't an ounce of logic; they'd be stuck 
here forever."

Potions, perhaps, may be one of those fields that require a wizard 
to draw on different talents and abilities than those normally used 
for Charms, Transfiguration, etc.  Perhaps logic is an integral part 
of Potions, which is why a lot of great wizards aren't very adept at 
it.

Think of Neville - he is abysmal at most subjects, including potions 
(though his skills in DADA have greatly improved).  Yet he is a 
brilliant Herbology student, a subject that doesn't require a great 
deal of magical power, but does require intelligence and a good eye 
for detail (*I* could never remember the nuances of the different 
plants and what they're used for!)  

However, I do think Neville would do much better at Potions if he 
wasn't so terrified of Snape; in OotP he seems fairly relaxed during 
the Potions O.W.L. and manages not to melt his cauldron.  After all, 
one would think that Herbology and Potions go hand-in-hand, 
considering that most if not all magical plants are also used as 
potion ingredients - however, *brewing* the potion may be a 
different story (e.g. many gardeners may not be able to cook very 
well).

Interesting conversation so far, btw, I find this topic 
fascinating.  :)

- JoAnna




From kking0731 at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 26 02:21:58 2004
From: kking0731 at hotmail.com (Kathy King)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 21:21:58 -0500
Subject: getting anything right
Message-ID: <Sea2-F46Svux4Jf7zyn00008752@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93990

Tracy Hunt wrote:
Snip:
Someone (sorry, I cannot remember who at the moment) recently said in
a post that with all of the information (5 books, 2 schoolbooks, many
interviews, several chats, etc.) from JKR, it's getting harder
for her to keep us in the dark and that the odds of someone figuring
it all out are tipping in our favor. But is that true? I, for one,
have been absolutely gobsmacked by most of what I've read in the
books. I didn't see it coming until I was practically on top of
it. Oh, I had glimpses of ideas about a few things  but for the
most part, I've fallen hook, line and sinker for all of JKR's
ploys.

Kathy:
True, very true.
My thought on this is that the books must indeed be childrens books because 
only a child can solve them. Kind of like a childproof cap, ask any child to 
open one and they can but they are most exasperating for adults. As adults 
we seem to over analyze everything where as children appear to take 
everything at face value. Children are still very much more in tune to their 
imagination, which Jkr does not lack in this arena at all. In closing I 
would like to say that children may not have all the answers but they can 
sure point out when someone looks suspicious when we, as adults, just accept 
them because of our feelings for the character.




Kathy

_________________________________________________________________
All the action. All the drama. Get NCAA hoops coverage at MSN Sports by 
ESPN. http://msn.espn.go.com/index.html?partnersite=espn




From nkafkafi at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 26 02:25:46 2004
From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 02:25:46 -0000
Subject: Fields of Magic (was Re: Potions Master Question)
In-Reply-To: <c3utkf+1b73@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c404ba+j1fs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93991

I combine posts from Potioncat and Carol, snipping here and there. 
For those who came in late, the discussion is about whether 
Transfiguration has a higher status than Potions (my own opinion) or 
are they approximately equal. 

Neri wrote: <snip>
> 3. Power. Fields that require the wizard to be more powerful are
> likely to be more distinguished. It seems Potions and Herbology
> require very little power (in fact, I can't see why a muggle or a
> squib won't be able to brew many of these potions). OTOH
> Transfiguration seems to require a lot of magical power.

Potioncat:
I see this view as a real mistake. If Potions did not take power,
Lupin could make his own wolfsbane potion. Just as not all adult
wizards can form a corporeal patronus, not all can make certain
potions. Just because you do not wave a wand or mutter an
incantation does not mean it is not powerful magic.

Carol:
But I'm almost
certain that JKR said in an interview that no Muggle could brew a
Potion even if he or she could somehow acquire the ingredients. You
have to have magical ability to infuse the potion with magical powers.
And I'm guessing that the more powerful the wizard, the more potent
his potions

Neri again:
I indeed didn't remember the part about muggles unable to brew a 
potion (big disappointment there. I was going to try doing the 
Drought of Peace before filling my tax report). But Potions lessons 
are very well documented in the HP books and we've also got some 
details regarding the brewing of a very advanced potion, the 
polyjuice. Yet I can't remember a single case where the brewer is 
required to contribute any magic of his own into the process. 
Whenever Harry or Neville botch it, which is all the time, it is 
never suggested that it is because they lack magical power or potion 
aura or something like this. It is always because they forgot to add 
the salamander blood or the pomegranate juice or whatever. So when I 
read about Snape preparing the Wolfbane potion I assumed that it was 
so difficult because its preparation is extremely complex, not 
because it requires a lot of magical power. 

Neri:
> 4. Tradition. Some fields are distinguished just because they were
> practiced for many years by famous and learned people. Potions
seems
> to have rather humble origins (it is basically cooking).
> Transfiguration is traditionally considered the mark of the
greatest
> wizards.

Potioncat:
 I will agree that if Potions is viewed as something "witches" perform
that it would be held in less esteem than a magic that is
traditionally for "wizards." (I've seen the respect for doctors
decline as women entered the field.)

Neri again:
Oops, I didn't mean to come out as the chauvinist pig here. One of 
the most ancient and respectable figures in the witchcraft tradition 
is Circe, who was a Transfiguration expert. She turned Ulysses' 
friends into animals (IIRC pigs...) and would have done the same to 
the great hero himself if he hadn't got help from the gods. Of 
course, Circe was described as very beautiful and the ruler of her 
own island. The type of witch who is traditionally associated with 
brewing potions has a much lower image, but not necessarily because 
of gender. More likely because it seems to imply lack of power. Those 
witches who could turn the naughty prince into a frog always got more 
respect than that.

Hey, I've just surfed to the Lexicon to verify my memory re Circe and 
I ran into Cliodne the druidess. Turns out she was a bird animagus.

Neri wrote:
<snip> Conjuring especially seems dead useful. I wonder what are its
limitations. For example, could you just conjure a cup of polyjuice
potion out of thin air instead of bothering to brew it? It hardly
seems fair.

Potioncat:
I don't know the rules here either, I recall a post that
indicated that conjured items were temporary, but I'm not sure if
that was canon.

Carol:
Clearly you *can't* conjure polyjuice potion or Veritaserum or
whatever out of thin air, or a skilled wizard like DD or Barty Jr.
would do so--and Snape would be out of a job because all his skills
would be useless. And you can't conjure food out of thin air, either,
or Sirius wouldn't have had to live on rats in GoF.

Granted, DD can conjure a comfortable chair out of thin air, but it
probably disappears when he's through with it, just as leprechaun gold
disappears after a few hours. JKR explains in another interview that
there are limitations to magic, and one of them is the sort of things
that can be conjured. (IMO, The Room of Requirement operates on the
same principle. Whatever you need is conjured out of thin air, but
disappears the moment you leave the room.) A potion, OTOH, will stay
on the shelf in its bottle until its needed.

Neri:
I agree with the principle. Still, polyjuice works for only one hour 
anyway, so who cares if the conjured polyjuice disappears after it 
had already done its job? 
  
Potioncat:
For the purpose of this post, I won't argue about whether Snape
really wants the DADA position. But, yes, DADA seems to have
more "status." And I think students would be more excited about
Transfigurations and Charms than potions as a class, even if it
wasn't Snape teaching it.

But as far as status within the adult community goes: Currently the
two teachers with the most status at Hogwarts are the Transfiguration
teacher (deputy headmistress) and the Potions Master. They seem to
always be at DD's side. This in spite of the fact that the Charms
teacher has more tenure than Snape and we know the Herbology teacher
is older (Wait, we do know that don't we? We just don't know how
long she's been teaching.) So I don't see that Transfiguration is an
overwhelming selling point in the route to Headmaster and academic
status.

Neri again:
I realize I'm getting into dangerous water now, but why do you think 
Snape has more status as a teacher than Flitwick? It is not my 
impression at all. Snape is in the Order and DD trusts him, but this 
is associated with his secret agent role, not his teaching position. 
DD has trusted Hagrid even longer than he's trusted Snape, yet Hagrid 
is surely not a high-status teacher. Again, this is only my 
impression, but Flitwick's sense of humor and complete ease with the 
students strikes me as a teacher who is very sure about his status, 
while Snape's animosity is a typical defense mechanism for a teacher 
who feels insecure. You don't see Flitwick (or McGonagall or Sprout) 
haunting the corridors at night in search for rule-breaking students. 
My reading of Snape's status in the eyes of his fellow teachers 
is "talented and ambitious, but still young. Needs to cool down and 
mellow a bit. In twenty years or so we might let him have a go at the 
DADA or Transfiguration jobs".   

Potioncat:
Also, to enter NEWT level Potions, one must have a very high mark on
OWLS. I can't see that being the case if it wasn't esteemed.

Neri again: 
This also strikes me as a Snape thing, not a Potions thing. Several 
list members hope Snape will be promoted to DADA only because the 
next Potions Master might be more reasonable and Harry will be able 
to get into the Potions NEWT class.

> Neri:
> Just an opinion (I thought shipping was the touchy subject:-)

Carol:
You forgot that Potions is associated with Snape, the ultimate touchy
subject! ;-)

Neri again:
Ah, now finally things are clear to me. But if Snape becomes a nice 
guy he'd lose all his charm. He should stay wicked, sleazy and 
inwardly insecure.

Neri






From jujupoet29 at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 26 02:31:45 2004
From: jujupoet29 at hotmail.com (sienna291973)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 02:31:45 -0000
Subject: Why does Ron have a crush on Hermione?
In-Reply-To: <c3t5kf+b0f3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c404mh+79u9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93992

> vmonte responds: 
> You're kidding right?  If you ask me Hermione is a pretty 
impressive 
> witch!  Think of all that she has accomplished in 5 years.  She 
saved 
> Harry and Ron many times alone with her keen intelligence.  She is 
> 100 times better than Malfoy will ever be, and she has muggle 
parents!  

(Why do you think Malfoy hates her so much?!) 

snip 

> 
> The real question is: what does Hermione see in Ron?  (Don't get 
me 
> wrong, I like Ron.  In fact, I think Ron is going to grow up and 
> become quite formidable in book 6 and 7.)  I think Hermione sees a 
lot in Ron as well. 

I agree with everything you've said vmonte, except the last 
paragraph.  What canon evidence is there that Hermione 'sees' 
something in Ron that she doesn't see in Harry? That's 
interpretation of canon not canon itself (though it often gets 
passed off as such). My personal opinion is that Hermione's feelings 
have been kept purposely ambiguous. I'm also wondering if someone 
could enlighten me as to what our policy is on the use of the HP 
movies in our analysis of canon (because I also have reservations of 
movie evidence being used to predict ships).  And I'm not sure who 
said that Ron wasn't motivated by jealousy, but I would point out 
that 'jealousy' was a motivating factor in Ron's sudden 
demonstration of his affections - jealousy of Krum. 

> Berit replies: 
> 
> Ron clearly thinks Harry is the only person worthy of, 
notHermione, 
> but a certain brown-eyed, red-haired girl... :-) 

At the risk of offending people (because I LOVE Ron, I truly do), it 
seems to me that this all depends very much on what Ron wants.  Ron 
wants Hermione, therefore he will be with Hermione; Ron wants Ginny 
to go out with Harry (is trying to push Ginny towards Harry) 
therefore Harry and Ginny will ultimately date. We have seen in the 
books that what Ron wants isn't necessarily what Ron gets and when 
Ron gets it (prefect badge; Quidditch champion) it is undermined by 
the things that go on around him - i.e. We have it confirmed from 
Dumbledore that the prefect badge was ultimately meant for Harry; 
When Ron has his big Quidditch moment, Harry and Hermione miss it 
completely because they have more important things to take care of. 

I do not think that Hermione's feelings are so clear cut that what 
Ron wants (OBHWF), Ron will get. 

Again - I don't want to offend, but it seems to me that the canon 
evidence for any ship (including H/Hr) is not so strong that its 
future is a given. 

Sienna 




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Mar 26 02:36:32 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 02:36:32 -0000
Subject: Stopping Occlumency (was: Lupin's resentment)
In-Reply-To: <c4027h+ij3g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c404vg+gk99@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93993

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Julie" 
<inky_quill at h...> wrote:

> I suspect that Dumbledore's awareness might play a part in 
the end of  the lessons.  
<snip>
>  But there's a another possibility: Snape 
> might have spoken with Dumbledore ('members of the order 
have more efficent means of communication') about what 
happened (or Remus Lupin who said he would).  Dumbledore 
told Harry at the end that he knew  the lessons had stopped, 
despite the need for Harry to learn and  practice occlumency.  
And Snape is pretty clear that Harry's not practicing.  So 
Dumbledore might have allowed the pause or end to 
 stand.<<

There's the possibility that Dumbledore suspected that Harry's 
failures were due neither to poor teaching (as Harry thinks) nor 
poor study habits (as Snape thinks).  The link between Harry and 
Voldemort did not work in the same way as normal Legilimency 
and it could be that Occlumency would have been 
counterproductive in any case. ESE!Lupin theorist that I am, I 
have always regarded Lupin's insistence that the lessons 
*must* be continued with a great deal of suspicion. 

Pippin




From inky_quill at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 26 02:07:17 2004
From: inky_quill at hotmail.com (Julie)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 02:07:17 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore's bad descisions?
In-Reply-To: <c3vri9+r6t5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4038l+hrso@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93994

> Carol Wrote:  [snipped]
> Dumbledore thought that Sirius had been the Secret Keeper and had
> betrayed the Potters ...  I agree with Earendil that Sirius knew 
he'd be a very unsafe guardian for Harry, especially if he murdered 
Peter as he apparently intended 


Hum-m-m can I toss in another two-bits?

Regardless of when Dumbledore might have suspected Sirius of 
betrayal, or where Sirius and Hagrid might have met up so Higrid 
could get the motorbike (as fellow Order members they might have been 
together when the news went out), Sirius himself might also just not 
have considered raising a baby on his own.  Sirius is a batchlor, 
he's in the Order so he's presumable in a high risk occupation (I 
know LV is presumed dead but lots of mopping up to do), and he might 
not have a settled home.  He's not likely to take baby Harry home to 
his mother to raise (shudder, she and Petunia might have found some 
common ground).  

Who else to leave deal with the baby but the older generation like 
Dumbledore, who (as teachers anyway) have more experience with 
children.  Even if Sirius hadn't been on a tear after Peter or 
suspected of betrayal, he might not have taken Harry to live with him 
until the boy was older.  

Inky/Julie




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Fri Mar 26 02:45:13 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 02:45:13 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment
In-Reply-To: <20040325030732.37455.qmail@web13505.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c405fp+d3ik@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93995

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ms Mo Me <fauntine_80 at y...> 
wrote:
> I think Lupin will play a much bigger role in the
> books to come.  He is actually my favorite character,
> and I have actually been thinking of posting a post
> about Lupin fans.  There are HP, Sirius, Snape and DD
> fans, but I have yet to run across a Lupin fan.
> 


Susan:
If I've counted correctly, you can mark me down as Lupin Fan #9.  Oh-
-and I think we can add JKR as Lupin Fan #10 [though of course she'd 
really need to be Fan #1], since she's on record as saying Lupin is 
*her* favorite teacher.

Q:  If you had to choose one teacher from your books to teach your 
child, who would it be and why?  
A:  It would be Professor Lupin, because he is kind, clever, and 
gives very interesting lessons.  

Q:  Who is your favorite character?  
A:  I love, Harry, Ron, Hermione, Hagrid, and Professor Lupin.  

[Scholastic interview, Feb. '00]

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From witchwriter_no1 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 25 19:11:13 2004
From: witchwriter_no1 at yahoo.com (witchwriter_no1)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 19:11:13 -0000
Subject: Hagrid's blunder or can any student by head boy/girl
In-Reply-To: <c3v708+aedr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3vash+tca0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93996

> > Dan wrote:
> > > So can any of the students be head boy/girl, or did Hagrid have 
> his 
> > > facts wrong?

> > Potioncat:
> > It appears that being a prefect isn't required to be a head 
> boy/girl.
> > There have been lots of ideas as to why James was given 
 > BTW, do we know who the Gryffindor girl prefect was for that year 
> > group?

Sue Wrote:
> We do not have canon for the girl prefect, but my guess would be 
> Lilly.  She is the one who tries to stop the Marauders in the 
> pensieve and she seemed to feel full authority to do so.  Hermione 
> anyone?
> 

Witchwriter writes: 
    I may be wrong on this point, but I thought that I heard rather 
read in the books(I dont have them with me to support my opinion with 
canon.) that a headboy or girl can be only those who have been 
prefects. So this would mean that hagrid ad his facts wrong.
But the huger possiblity is my fact being wrong. 
    Anycase, coming to Lilly being prefect and head girl( most 
possibly both) , we have no canon evidence that they were both from 
the same year. The students of one year write the exams together in 
one hall. If Lilly had been in the same year, then she would have 
written the exam in the big hall(to which Harry had been transposed 
through Snapes pensieve.). But she was not to be discussed in the 
hall I therefore strongly feel she must have been a year or more 
younger than the Marauderers and Snape. She was among other girls 
under a tree when the marauderers came out of the exam hall. 

Hoping not to lose my chocolate frog...

Witch Writer





From LadySawall at aol.com  Thu Mar 25 20:01:25 2004
From: LadySawall at aol.com (Jo Ann)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 20:01:25 -0000
Subject: Brother wands [was: Re: Horse Feathers]
In-Reply-To: <c3v108+8h45@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3vdql+7ar5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93997

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" 
<susiequsie23 at s...> wrote:

> There is certainly more variation in types of 
> wood used, plus length of wood, etc.  Surely it's the combination
of core & wood which make the wand unique?  
> 
> The fact that Fawkes provided the feather for both Tom's/Voldy's & 
> Harry's *does* make them "brother" wands, but perhaps the other 
> aspects of the wands are well suited to the **differences** between 
> Tom/Voldy and Harry.


I've recently been doing some research on this very topic for a 
fanfic, and I think the wood does have a very great deal to do with 
it.

Now JKR has stated that her magical spells are completely made up, 
but she seems to have gone to a lot of trouble to incorporate real 
historical and mythological elements into other aspects of the 
books.  So, looking up the properties traditionally ascribed to Holly 
(Harry's wand) and Yew (Tom Riddle's) at Wiccan sites devoted to 
trees, I found:

"As with most other trees the Holly was revered for its protective 
qualities. The Holly guards against lightning, poisoning and 
mischievous spirits, and when planted around the home it protects the 
inhabitants from evil sorcerers...A piece of Holly carried on your 
person is said to promote good luck, particularly in men...Holly also 
symbolizes holiness, consecration, material gain, physical revenge, 
beauty, and immortality, as well as peace, goodwill and health. It 
can be used ritually to aid and help with a person's ability to cope 
with death..."

Holly is also, it seems, associated with Christ as a symbol of death 
and rebirth; in certain Christian traditions, it first grew where He 
walked, and its red berries symbolize His blood.

And: 

"Both Druids with their belief in reincarnation, and later Christians 
with their teaching of the resurrection, regarded [Yew] as a natural 
emblem of everlasting life...There is also a tradition that the Cross 
was a yew tree...In later times, only the death side of the Yew's 
symbolism remained in the popular mind. Shakespeare wrote of "the 
dismal yew" and his witches bore "slips of yew slivered in the moon's 
eclipse."

Yews were also traditionally planted in graveyards.

According to the Harry Potter Lexicon's Herbology section, Harry's 
and Tom Riddle's were the only wands made of those particular woods 
that have been mentioned in the series to date.  Which makes me 
wonder whether the use of holly and/or yew is rare for whatever 
reason.

I doubt it's unique to those two wands in history, especially since 
holly is supposed to be highly prized by woodworkers for its 
decorative and useful properties, though it has to be cured 
carefully.  Interestingly, yew was equally valued for use in bows, 
but "even the kind that makes the finest bows, is quite irregular in 
appearance"--perhaps a symbolic nod to the fact that Voldemort so 
often uses his as a weapon, and in such ugly ways?  Whereas Harry's 
being made of protective Holly could be tied somehow to his talent 
for things like resisting the Imperius curse, summoning a Patronus, 
etc.

So I'd say the wood used does definitely figure into it, having both 
related and nearly opposite connotations: one symbolizing the darker 
aspects of the death-and-rebirth cycle, the other the light; one 
associated with defense, the other with attack; one beautiful, the 
other not.  Rather a nifty dichotomy JKR has got going there.

J. Spencer





From jrc241 at psu.edu  Thu Mar 25 21:20:05 2004
From: jrc241 at psu.edu (pennstgrle)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 21:20:05 -0000
Subject: Wake up call (again)!!!
In-Reply-To: <c3t9ao+t835@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c3vie5+clok@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93998

The Sergeant Majorette says
> 
> Ron does not have a "crush" on Hermione, and I believe that's the 
> whole point. A "crush" is the kind of purely hormonal reaction an 
> adolescent male has to a girl like Fleur or any conventionally 
pretty 
> female. We're meant to see Ron's friendship with Hermione evolve 
into 
> something more grown-up, and we, along with Harry, Hermione and 
> everybody else in the world, see it long before Ron himself does.
> 
> Remember the non-hug at the end of the CoS movie? That was 
deliberate 
> foreshadowing of the unresolved sexual tension between 
Ron/Hermione 
> that JKR knew we'd be seeing in the future.
> 
> Really, neither Ron nor Hermione are "crushable". But each is the 
> kind of person the other kind of person grows up to marry.
> 
> --JDR (who thinks that Luna is to Hermione as Viktor is to Ron: a 
> wake-up call...)

Jaimee again!

Sorry everyone! I don't know what I was reading, but it wasn't what 
JDR typed!

I can see where you would draw a parallel with this!!! I don't know 
what I was thinking!

But, now pondering what you really typed, does Hermione ever act 
bothered by Luna's interest (if you can call it that) in Ron?

I think Hermione *knows* that Ron feels possesive of her, but I 
thought his behavior about girls having to be good-looking to ask 
them to the ball and his slobbering over Fleur (both in GoF) 
bothered Hermione more than anything that happens with Luna in Book 
5!!! (The only thing that seems to me to bother Hermione about Luna 
is the way Luna believes that make-believe creatures really 
exist...which made me think of Prof. McGonagall's irritation with 
Trewlany at Christmas in PoA....)

Sorry again for my earlier misunderstanding and the corresponding 
post!!

~Jaimee (who thinks Hermione acts far more like Prof. McGonagall 
than Molly, most of the time)




From lethafaraday at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 26 02:46:29 2004
From: lethafaraday at yahoo.com (Ava Gordon)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 02:46:29 -0000
Subject: Stopping Occlumency (was: Lupin's resentment)
In-Reply-To: <c4027h+ij3g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c405i5+c61i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 93999

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Julie" <inky_quill at h...> 
wrote:
         <portions omitted>

> But I'm wondering: is it actually cannon that Snape actually 
> **refused** to 
> continue teaching Harry occlumency?  Or are we taking Harry's 
> words at face value and assuming its solely Snape's doing.  After 
> all Harry is more than happy to discontinue the lessons, and to 
> keep dreaming of the door.  
> 
> Yes, Snape was utterly enraged to find Harry sneaking a peak at a 
> humiliating episode of Snape's youth. But Snape doesn't actually 
> say 'that's it you sneaky little brat, this is the last lesson 
I'll 
> ever give you, not only do you not practice but you've invaded my 
> personal memories. I'm not going to teach you any more.'  

       Not that I would blame him, personally, but that's absolutely 
true.
        <snip>

> So Harry flees the office and a very angry Snape.  Its not the 
first 
> time he's seen Snape angry.  But he is confused and somewhat 
shocked 
> by the new conflicting evidence that James and Sirius weren't 
> perfect.  And Snape is a reminder of that, Snape is their victim.

    And, of course, a reminder to Snape, of his victim-status.  It 
would not be at all surprising if at least a factor in Snape's 
turning DE had to do with looking for a means to turn the tables.  
To a young wizard accustomed to being bullied, being accepted(?) 
into the bullies' fold must have seemed like a distinct change for 
the better.

> The first person Harry mentions the end of lessons to is Hermione, 
> but he doesn't say Snape won't teach him, he says that Snape said 
> Harry was fine on his own now that he knew how(p. 651).  Harry 
tells 
> Remus and Sirius (p. 672) that Snape "told me he'd never teach me 
> Occlumency again..."  (which isn't really what was literally 
said). 

  A thought - what Harry says to Hermione seems to be a cover-up - 
imagine what Hermione would think if she knew what Harry had done!  
By the time he talks to Lupin & Sirius, it's all Snape's fault.  By 
the end of the book, of course, in Harry's mind, pretty much 
EVERYTHING is Snape's fault.  I can't help wondering if we've 
reached a nadir, or if things are going to get much worse before 
they get better (assuming they will get better eventually).  
Personally, I think the latter.


> While those two react with alarm (or anger in Sirius' case) and 
> insist the lessons continue, they don't provide Harry with any 
real 
> answers or ways to understand James'& Sirius' bullying or Snape's 
> victimization.  

      No they didn't, did they?  Sirius even found it all rather 
amusing, didn't he?

Harry much latter tells Dumbledore (p 833) 
> that "Snape stopped giving me Occlumency lessons!...He threw me 
out 
> of his office!"  To which Dumbledore replies "I am aware of it."  
> 
> I suspect that Dumbledore's awareness might play a part in the end 
of 
> the lessons.  

       Never can figure out what Dumbledore does or doesn't know.  
If he knew about half the things we would think he knows about, 
you'd think he'd have domne twice as much to prevent or change or 
fix them.

         <snip>
 
> 3) Snape might realize that 
> he's still so angry that he doesn't dare deal with Harry; A time-
out 
> might just be the best thing for both of them, allowing each to 
cool 
> down.

  Of course he's embarrassed - and angry - and allowing a cool down 
is actually very sensible, as you point out.  There may be some 
childishness in his behavior (of course the "Whoops!" might qualify 
in that, even though it's hilarious), but all in all, he seems to 
behave a whole lot more grown-up than Sirius, who actively 
encourages Harry to engage in forbidden and dangerous behavior. 

> And Harry doesn't ask for lessons despite the danger and Hermione 
and 
> Lupin and Sirius's urging.  But there's a another possibility: 
Snape 
> might have spoken with Dumbledore ('members of the order have more 
> efficent means of communication') about what happened (or Remus 
Lupin 
> who said he would).  Dumbledore told Harry at the end that he knew 
> the lessons had stopped, despite the need for Harry to learn and 
> practice occlumency.  And Snape is pretty clear that Harry's not 
> practicing.  So Dumbledore might have allowed the pause or end to 
> stand.

                <snip>  
  And what did DD ever do to attempt to mediate a reconciliation?  
Wouldn't that have been a nice idea?

    - Ava





From cowardly_heroic at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 26 02:53:04 2004
From: cowardly_heroic at yahoo.com (cowardly_heroic)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 02:53:04 -0000
Subject: Potions Master Question
In-Reply-To: <c3veko+uq83@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c405ug+t7du@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94000

> Neri said:
> Potions, on the other hand, seems to be less a distinguished field
> than Charms and DADA, not to mention Transfiguration. It is important
> because of its obvious utility, but it doesn't have a strong
> theoretical basis, but seems to have its roots in the humble skill of
> cooking.
> 
>  
> Suzanne:
> Cooking? I'd say it's more like chemistry, myself, which I consider a
> highly distinguished field.
 
Patty, replying somewhat late in the discussion:
Forgive me, I don't have my HP books w/ me, but where does it show in 
the books that transfiguration is a more distinguished field than potions?  
If we are trying to compare them to actual muggle fields of sciences, I 
would have to say that Potions has more of a base in biochemistry and 
physical chemistry....the hardest fields in chemistry -- along with biology 
thrown into the mix.  Transfigurations I would guess would be a cross 
between biology and physics.  And, honestly, from my and several of my 
physics and pre-med colleagues' experiences, to us, higher level 
chemistry is much harder and much more distinguished than higher level 
physics...no offense to you physics majors out there.  I would also think 
that all of the fields of magic would be dangerous when not applied 
correctly.  I would have to say both transfiguration and potions require a 
lot of intelligence and learning, and that both are steeped in a strong 
theoretical basis.  As for charms, I don't really see how it's more 
distinguished other than the fact that it is probably the most useful out of 
the rest of the fields.  It does not have as much application of knowledge 
and is more set on memorization than potions.  And for DADA, I'd have 
to say that it's not so much distinguished but it is more of a class that 
students see that should be "fun" and exciting due to the hype of being 
an auror.  A lot of the times, distinguished does not always mean 
popular or more known to the general public.  I don't know...I'm just 
babbling.  
 
Patty






From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 26 03:22:03 2004
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 03:22:03 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <000f01c412bf$c7767820$05030f04@dslverizon.net>
Message-ID: <c407kr+gkfg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94001

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Silverthorne" 
<silverthorne.dragon at v...> wrote:
> Hey, no problem. It doesn't hurt, but it does get the 'defender' 
part of me
> up and going.
> 
> My problem comes from people who bash Snape and yet cannot see 
those very
> same traits in Sirius or other chracters in the books. To me, it's a
> hypocritical treatment. Both men have had hard, abusive, unhappy 
lives that
> very likely screwed them both in the head. But because one of them  
loves
> the main character and the other appearently doesn't, only the one 
that
> 'hates' the main character consistently gets bashed for being 
arrogant,
> cruel, thoughtless, bullying and immature (and yet both men exhibit 
all
> these traits--it's only thier target that differs). Just because 
one of them
> 'limits' himself to 'grownups' and 'evil creatures' doesn't make it 
any more
> right. In fact, I think it's worse because it really *IS* 
Hypocritcal at
> that point. ('Oh, you're mean, nasty, evil and old, so it's okay if 
I treat
> you this way, even though I'd scream holy hell if I saw you treat 
some kid
> this way'...Say what? Isn;t this person a being who should be 
respected as
> well...? Nevermind, self righteousness only extends to certain 
levels, and
> rarely to the 'enemy').
> 
> They're two sides of the same coin, but people can't seem to get 
past the
> 'cool' packaging on Sirius to see that. Great, he loves Harry and 
the like,
> very commendable--but look at how he treats Kreacher! Is it any 
wonder the
> house elf turns on him?  He bullied other kids(not just Snape) in 
school
> because he *could* bully them, right along with James--Lupin even 
admits to
> that. He baits Snape in OotP (and yes, Snape baits right back, but 
the point
> is Snape is not the *only* 'adult' engaging in immature behaivior 
in the
> scene! Talk about immature--he still holds onto old grudges that 
shouldn't
> even matter anymore! Geez, Sirius, just walk away for gods sake!) 
but does
> that get acknowledged? No. Somehow, Sirius is 'okay' with what he 
does
> according to the audience...Snape? Nope. No go. Total ass, so he 
*must* be
> the only person 'wrong' in this scenario.
> 
>  So to me, it isn't that I think Snape is all wonderful...it's that 
I think
> people dump *all* the nasty crap on *him* and refuse to see that 
other
> characters have some of the same faults--including the 
beloved 'good guys'.
> Just because we haven't seen Snape with a loved one, doens't mean 
he's
> incapable of the same caring acts that Sirius has exhibited towards 
Harry.
> What it means is that we haven't seen who Snape cares about in that 
way yet.
> Same thing with his 'immature' reactions. Okay, so he freaks out. 
So does
> Sirius, sometimes with as little cause
> 
> 
> 
> Not to mention that Rowling has hinted that Snape *may* (--this 
word is here
> for those of you who think Snape is not the boy in those pensieve 
scenes)
> was abused as a child himself. Okay, so now he has a tie to Harry 
in being
> another abused child--but one that it seems did not get 'rescued' 
from his
> life like Sirius and Harry did...and you don't think that affected 
him as
> much as the Dursely's affected Harry, or Azkaban affected Sirius? 
No? Sirius
> is just as much an adult as Severus, with the same capabilities to 
think out
> his actions despite his feelings before he reacts (which is what 
everyone is
> expecting Severus to do, without fail, if he's ever to 'redeem' 
himself in
> their eyes), but that doesn't stop Sirius from engaging in violent,
> thoughtless, immature acts any more than it stops Severus. But hey, 
it;'s
> Sirius...so it must be okay.
> 
> Hypocracy yet again!
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I actaully like Harry *and* Sirius, for all 
that I tend
> to unload on them when subjects like this come up...but the thing 
is, I'm
> unloading because someone somewhere seems to have forgotten that 
Severus
> shares a lot of the same experinces that those two characters have 
had. Yes,
> Severus grew up shaped differently than they did, he isn't all 
light and
> sweetness. Then again, it would seem he didn't get the same 'outs' 
along the
> way as he was growing up, so it isn't like he had similar chances 
to apply
> himself towards 'changing his attitude' to a more positive one. So 
to me,
> it's no wonder he's the way he is...and yes, because of it, I have 
a harder
> time condemning him than those who have 'huge issues' with him and 
how he
> acts. I suppose my stance is this:
> 
> If you can give Harry a break because he's 'young and has lost 
everything'.
> And you can forgive Sirius's faults because 'he went through hell 
and has
> been in Azkaban'
> 
> Then, at least try to give Snape a little credit for not being as 
bad as he
> could have been, considering his own life experiences (what we know 
of them)
> 
> Quite frankly, if that he was the boy in the pensieve (and I do 
indeed
> beleive he was), then he came from an abusive household--one that 
likely was
> a Dark Wizard household since he arrived at Hogwarts already 
knowing Dark
> Art spells. He then went on to be an unpopular kid at school, 
definetly
> picked on by the 'In' crowd (the Marauders), and therefore, as is 
usual in
> such situations, probably by other kids as well who would have 
followed the
> Marauder's lead, and then finally on to being a DE--and from little 
we've
> seen of THAT culture, it's not exactly a gentle balm to the soul to 
be part
> of that little clique either. One little mess up and old Voldy 
really takes
> a few chunks out of you.
> 
> Now, add to that as he 'grows up', walking away from the DE to join 
the good
> guys--getting marked as a 'bad guy' anyway during a trial (Dumbly 
may have
> gotten him out of that mess, but it likely Tarnished Snape's rep 
for good,
> no matter what he does now), having to essentially lie to your 
former
> 'friends' in order to do your job and help your new 'friends' and
> allies...and so on and so forth. It may not be as spectacular to 
watch, but
> it leaves a scar just as deep (if not deeper) than the ones Harry 
and Sirius
> carry around.
> 
> And yes, he gets harsh with Harry--I won't deny that. I *do* have 
trouble
> calling it abuse for two reasons--one, I'm a survivor of the RL 
thing--both
> mental and physical. Two, for all the scathing nasty things Snape 
may do
> (and except for a thrown jar of cockraoches, it's all been easily 
ignored
> words and nothing else), it really does not affect Harry one bit, 
other than
> to make him hate Snape. It's rather hard to be abused when it has 
no affect.
> Harry sure as hell doesn't 'enable' Snape, so for me, it's not 
abuse.
> Annoying and pissy, yes, but not abusive.
> 
> Anyway, sorry if I went off, but I feel that really, the viewpoint 
is rather
> lopsided. It's a lot easier to relate to the children and heros of 
the
> story...far far harder to relate to the pissy, underdog 'antihero'. 
I just
> wish more people were willing to give as much for Snape as they are 
for
> Sirius, Harry, any of the others.
> 
> In other words, try using Lupin's view and see it a little 
differently...and
> with a little compassion for *all* the players...
> 
> Silverthorne/Anne
> **Spazzing while Defending the Snark. Sorry for the tirade...^^;**
> 
> 
> 

Hi, Anne! 
Missed talking to you.
I think you know what I think about Snape by now, but something in 
your post made me want to ellaborate a little bit.

Let's summarise briefly. Yes, despite the fact that those three share 
similar traits, I will excuse Harry, because he is a teenager, 
etc....:o)

Yes, I think that limiting the bullying to grown-ups makes it less 
despicable, sort of.. Due to the fact that those grown-ups can hit 
back and children, let's say not always are allowed to hit (hex, 
curse, whatever) their professors. :o)

I love Snape and Sirius bugging each other. They are the same size, 
they can take it. :)


The point I wanted to make. Yes, the fact that Sirius loves Harry is 
a huge plus in my book. Never mind about him hating certain potion 
professors, hear me out for a second, Ok?

You said that just because we don't see Snape with a loved one, does 
not mean that he can't love? Well, after OoP that is exactly how I 
feel - I don't see Snape being capable of love. In fact I don't see 
him being capable feeling anything else, but hate. Surely, this hate 
is manifested towards Harry and Sirius, but we mainly see Snape 
interacting with them.

I am not a cynical person at all and for me to be able to feel 
something for the character said character should be able to express 
some positive emotions.

Yes, Sirius loves certain people  and hates others, but frankly I am 
amased that after the Azkaban he is still capable of feeling love to 
ANYBODY and I love him for that, not for some "cool package" What did 
you mean by that, by the way? :o)

Sirius is a broken, hurting man, who would greatly benefit (as many 
HP characters, IMO) from spending many hours with the psychologist. 
Yes, I give him a break, because I see him as a character, who is 
capable to feel some positive things and yes, because he loves my 
favourite character. Harry sure needs that.

Just realised that I keep talking about Sirius in the present tense. 
Well,  never mind. :)


I know that there is a chance of learning that Snape loved one time. 
Well I for once will be very happy to learn that, but so far yes, I 
will defend Harry and Sirius much more.


Alla







From MadameSSnape at aol.com  Fri Mar 26 03:31:26 2004
From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 22:31:26 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hagrid's blunder or can any student by head boy/girl
Message-ID: <1cd.1cf14227.2d94fe0e@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94003

In a message dated 3/25/2004 10:10:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
witchwriter_no1 at yahoo.com writes:

    Anycase, coming to Lilly being prefect and head girl( most 
possibly both) , we have no canon evidence that they were both from 
the same year. The students of one year write the exams together in 
one hall. If Lilly had been in the same year, then she would have 
written the exam in the big hall(to which Harry had been transposed 
through Snapes pensieve.). But she was not to be discussed in the 
hall I therefore strongly feel she must have been a year or more 
younger than the Marauderers and Snape. She was among other girls 
under a tree when the marauderers came out of the exam hall. 

===================================

Sherrie here:

Harry was concentrating on his father, and finding the other Marauders - he 
didn't think to look for his mother, she never even crossed his mind til she 
(forcefully!) entered the picture.  However, Harry is, IIRC, described as 
exiting the hall WITH the group of girls in which Lily is included - which would 
mean that yes, she WAS in the OWL hall.

Just my two Knuts - as ever, YMMV.
Sherrie
"Unless history lives in our present, it has no future." 
PRESERVE OUR CIVIL WAR BATTLEFIELDS!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From elfundeb at comcast.net  Fri Mar 26 03:03:43 2004
From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb2)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 03:03:43 -0000
Subject: Snape and the Order
In-Reply-To: <c3vpsr+2nek@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c406if+8aa9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94004

I wrote:

> > I think Dumbledore's testimony came in a closed, grand jury-type 
> > hearing, not before the Wizengamot (or Wizard's Council, as it 
is 
> > called in GoF), since nobody knows Snape was a DE, while 
everyone, 
> > even Ron, seems to know how Lucius Malfoy escaped justice.  
 
Carol responded:

> Yes, but over 200 witches and wizards were present for Karkaroff's
> testimony against his fellow DEs, including Snape.
  
I'd forgotten that Karkaroff's Pensieve hearing was so well 
attended.  However, Karkaroff's hearing was also in the nature of an 
evidence gathering mission; it certainly wasn't Karkaroff's trial, 
and Rita Skeeter wasn't there like she was at Bagman's trial, so I'm 
sticking by my theory that it wasn't public.

We know that there are magical ways of keeping witnesses quiet.  
There are Memory Charms, of course, but one can also use jinxes like 
the one Hermione used for the DA.  I think it likely that the 
council investigating the DE crimes were bound to secrecy (as are 
grand juries) by some kind of charm, as it doesn't seem to have been 
widely known that Snape was a DE.  Admittedly, though, I don't have 
any hard evidence for this, only a reasonable inference from the 
sketchy evidence before us.

But you do have a point about the timing.  I had always believed the 
council was not convened to round up and punish the DEs until 
*after* Voldemort's fall, but suspicion might have focused on Snape 
after the deaths of his pals Rosier and Wilkes, and we know that 
Crouch was busy using any methods at his disposal against the DEs.  

Debbie:
> > I think canon strongly implies that Snape did not begin teaching 
at 
> > Hogwarts until *after* the events at Godric's Hollow.
> 
> Carol:
> Can you provide your canon for this? IIRC, all we have is Snape's
> statement that he's been teaching at Hogwarts for fourteen years.
> Unlike McGonagall, who says "thirty years this December," he does 
not
> supply a month, suggesting (to me, at least) that he began 
teaching at
> the usual beginning of term, September first.
> 
No, I don't have solid evidence, just the inference based on Sirius' 
surprise on discovering that Snape was teaching.  My thinking is 
that because Sirius was a member of the Order, and Dumbledore was 
its head, surely word would have filtered back to him that his 
Hogwarts enemy had been hired by Dumbledore as a teacher. 

I do think that your timeline can only work if Snape is a double 
agent (a theory I like, as it explains why even in the graveyard 
Voldemort still doesn't seem sure where Snape's loyalties lie).  He 
couldn't have taken a post at Hogwarts and not have committed to spy 
for Voldemort at the same time.  What I haven't figured out is what 
information he could have passed to Voldemort to avoid suspicion 
that would not have been harmful to the Order.

Carol:
> I guess you don't think
> that Snape had to be at Hogwarts to be unaware that Pettigrew 
rather
> than Sirius was the spy/Secret Keeper. (I've argued elsewhere that
> Bellatrix was probably the only DE who knew and later informed the 
DEs
> alreay in Azkaban.) But you seem to agree that Snape didn't know, 
and
> therefore that he really believed Sirius was a murderer until the 
end
> of PoA, just as DD and the Weasleys and everyone else did. (Let me
> know if I'm misinterpreting you here.)

No, you've interpreted me correctly.  I think Pettigrew's treachery 
was a surprise to nearly everyone and Snape wouldn't have known 
regardless of whether he was at Hogwarts or at Voldemort's elbow.

> Debbie:
> > I think it more likely that Snape came to Dumbledore a couple of 
> > weeks before the attacks. We learn in PoA (don't have the book 
handy 
> > or I'd quote) that the charm was put in place because one of 
> > Dumbledore's spies tipped him off that Voldemort was after the 
> > Potters, and that the attack occurred approximately one week 
after 
> > the charm was performed.   

Carol:
> My only problem with this scenario is that it doesn't allow much 
time
> for Snape to be a spy "at great personal risk" before he becomes a
> teacher. 

In my mind, whatever secret Snape brought Dumbledore -- even if he 
only did it once -- put him at great personal risk because of the 
possibility Voldemort would discover that the information had been 
passed.  

> And you can't just create a teaching position out of thin
> air. There had to be at least one vacancy, either Potions or DADA 
or
> both. Maybe the Potions teacher became the DADA teacher so Snape 
could
> have the position. But I think he must have applied before the
> beginning of the term, knowing that there was a vacancy, rather 
than
> somehow being giving a teaching position well into the term 
because he
> was in need of a safe haven.

This is a harder argument to rebut.  There's always the possibility 
that Dumbledore kept Snape on hand doing something else (hey, maybe 
he was Filch's assistant and that's why he had Filch tend his leg in 
PS/SS <g>), but I'm beginning to warm to the idea that he brought 
Dumbledore his information about the Potters at his job interview in 
August, and that it took nearly two months to work out the Secret 
Keeper plan.  Another advantage of your version of events is that 
Snape taking refuge at Hogwarts only *after* Godric's Hollow might 
look suspicious to the remaining DEs, whereas if Snape was already 
teaching at Hogwarts before Godric's Hollow staying there would seem 
quite natural.

> Alternatively, and I have no canon whatever to back this up, but 
it's
> another possibility that has occurred to me: Maybe LV arranged the
> death of the DADA teacher (having Malfoy or someone AK him over the
> summer holiday) specifically to make that position available to 
Snape,
> who naturally would jump at the chance to be safely at Hogwarts 
with
> DD, away from the Muggle-baiting and other disreputable activities 
of
> the Death Eaters. He would, of course, pretend to be spying for LV 
but
> really be working for DD, just as in the first scenario. In both
> cases, Snape would be given the Potions position instead of the 
DADA
> position he applied for, with the DADA position presumably going to
> the old Potions teacher.

I like to think that Snape chose to leave the DEs of his own accord 
and not because Voldemort created an opportunity for him, and I 
don't much like the idea that Snape was already working for 
Dumbledore when he became a double agent.  Though I'm a fan of the 
double agent theory, I like to think that Snape proposed it to 
Voldemort (which goes very nicely with the theory that he used a job 
opening at Hogwarts both as a way to approach Dumbledore and as a 
way to explain it to Voldemort) and not that Voldemort sent him 
there.  

However, while I don't buy the theory that Voldemort had one of his 
hit men do away with the old DADA teacher, I think this theory 
should earn Carol her own FEATHERBOAS (Foaming Enthusiast of Ambush, 
Torture, and Hostility, Embracing Really Bloodthirsty Operations and 
Savagery)* and will therefore lend her one of mine.

> Carol:
> Everyone
> seems to take "lap dog" to mean "errand boy," but it actually 
means "a
> small pet dog" or "pampered pet." Picture a rich old woman with her
> pampered miniature poodle in her lap. So, yes, it's an insult to 
both
> Lucius and Severus, but it seems to me to apply to a time when they
> were boys (five or six years apart) and Severus was sort of 
a "pet" to
> the older Lucius, who IMO found him precocius and amusing.

This is almost precisely the image this phrase conjured up in my 
mind, except that in my view the pets' purpose is to do the master's 
(or mistress) bidding.  They got to sit on the mistress' lap to keep 
the mistress warm and provide unconditional love.  And so it's 
apropos for Sirius to taunt Snape for having to feign unconditional 
devotion to Malfoy (and, by extension, Malfoy's own master -- and 
Lucius certainly acts like Voldemort's lapdog).

> Carol, who can't comprehend posting rarely on Snape!

This is because most Snape threads move at the speed of light, and 
by the time I catch up it's all been said.

Debbie
who likes Snape but is really a Lupin fan (both are brilliantly 
flawed characters) and once posted here that she'd like to invite 
both of them over for drinks and conversation (but not at the same 
time)

*For a list of acronyms coined by HPFGU members, see Inish Alley at 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?
method=reportRows&tbl=13






From willsonkmom at msn.com  Thu Mar 25 21:02:15 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 21:02:15 -0000
Subject: Vanishing Cabinets
Message-ID: <c3vhcn+hjg4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94005

Sorry, one and all.  The post 93960 was actually submitted early 
3/35 and vanished. So at noonish I sort of re-wrote it as post 
93937.  Then at 3:30 pm the first post reappeared. 

Gred!  
Forge!

Potioncat




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 26 04:21:49 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 04:21:49 -0000
Subject: If DD knows, then why...? [was: Snape, trying very hard not to smile?]
In-Reply-To: <c3vljl+5ono@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c40b4t+6m3g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94006

> SUSAN:
<snip>
> I am left w/ the question that Potioncat has alluded to:  Do others 
> think Snape was trying to discover whether Harry is a 
> Parselmouth...or do you think he was just being mean...or setting up 
> some other "test" for Harry?

Carol:
I don't think Snape is ever "just being mean." There's a method in his
meanness, so to speak. I don't know what he was attempting to discover
by having Draco cast serpensortia, but it must have had some purpose.
Maybe he simply thought it was an appropriate spell for a Slytherin to
cast and one that Harry would need to watch out for at some point. I
don't see how he could have known about the basilisk or guessed that
Harry spoke Parseltongue, but he certainly realized the significance
when Harry did so. Whether Snape knew anything about young Tom Riddle
or not, he certainly knew that LV was a Parseltongue and that the gift
(or is it a curse?) was very rare.  So believe it or not, I'm on the
fence with this one. (Scoot over, Sue! Make room for me!)


 Potioncat wondered:
 > Why do you think DD knew Tom Riddle opened the Chamber?  I'm sure 
 > he knew Hagrid didn't but what did he know for certain? How would 
 > he know it was a basilisk? Perhaps he tried to talk to Myrtle, but 
 > didn't learn anything. Harry had a difficult enough time getting 
 > her to talk and she may not have talked to a professor.  For that 
 > matter, DD may have been hampered in his investigation in the 
 > early days by Headmaster Dippit 
> 
> 
> SUSAN:
> Yes, I think these are good questions as well. Is there something 
> in canon which makes people *sure* DD knew Tom opened the Chamber 
> and what was within it, or is it the "all-knowing DD" assumption?  
> <snip>

Carol:
Dumbledore may have suspected that Tom had opened the Chamber, but
surely he would have testified against him at Hagrid's expulsion
hearing if he had conclusive evidence. Instead, Hagrid's wand was
broken and he was expelled. All Dumbledore could do was get him a post
as gamekeeper (which begs the question of how a Transfiguration
teacher who was not yet headmaster could hire a thirteen-year-old
gamekeeper, and what happened to his predecessor, Ogg, but I won't go
there). Meanwhile Tom got a special award for services to the school,
killed his father and grandparents over the summer holiday, and
returned to Hogwarts to become Head Boy. Did DD, who reads the Muggle
papers, suspect him of that murder, too, and yet say nothing? Or maybe
no one in the WW cared to listen because the dead people were just
Muggles? I'm starting to find this train of thought disturbing.

To return to the point, I think Dumbledore suspected that Tom had
opened the Chamber and may even have suspected that it contained a
basilisk (the snake/Slytherin connection combined with the
petrification of the students) but could prove nothing and so he did
nothing. In CoS, when Mrs. Norris is petrified and the writing appears
on the wall saying that the Chamber has been opened, he only says that
Mrs. Norris is not dead but petrified and that no second year could
have performed such advanced Dark Magic. Possibly he communicates his
suspicions to Snape that the heir of Slytherin has returned to Snape,
who would be on the alert for a Parseltongue who could open the
Chamber, but he seems to have kept any suspicions that Riddle/
Voldemort had returned to himself at that point.

When Colin Creevey is petrified, McGonagall asks what the melted
camera lens means and DD answers, "It means that the Chamber of
Secrets is indeed open again," and when she says, "But, Albus. . .
surely . . . *who*?" he responds, "The question is not *who*, the
question is *how*" (CoS Am. ed. 181-82). So it sounds as if he knows
at that point that Riddle/Voldemort in some form has somehow opened
the Chamber, but it's still not clear whether he knows that the
creature is a basilisk. McGonagall, OTOH, is clearly clueless. For
much of the rest of the book, DD is not even present. We learn at the
end that he was one of the few people who knew that Tom Riddle was
Voldemort--no indication of whether he already knew about the basilisk
unless you count ssending a phoenis and a sword to help Harry. 

Well, I thought I knew where I was going on this post, but now I've
succeeded in confusing myself. At any rate, I started out thinking
that DD didn't know that Tom Riddle had opened the Chamber. Now I'm
leaning the other way--he either knewor strongly suspected but had no
proof.

Coming to my rescue, SSS?

Carol




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 26 04:23:22 2004
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 04:23:22 -0000
Subject: Stopping Occlumency (was: Lupin's resentment)
In-Reply-To: <c4027h+ij3g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c40b7q+4fkv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94007

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Julie" <inky_quill at h...> wrote:
> "potioncat" wrote:
> > I'm curious about the ending of the occlumency lessons.  I never 
took 
> that scene as meaning the end of the Occlumency lessons was solely 
> Snape's fault.  I've seen this comment posted a couple of times 
that 
> Snape refused to continue teaching Harry occlumency.  But I'm 
> wondering: is it actually cannon that Snape actually **refused** to 
> continue teaching Harry occlumency?  Or are we taking Harry's words 
> at face value and assuming its solely Snape's doing.  After all 
Harry 
> is more than happy to discontinue the lessons, and to keep dreaming 
> of the door.  
> 
> Yes, Snape was utterly enraged to find Harry sneaking a peak at a 
> humiliating episode of Snape's youth. But Snape doesn't actually 
> say 'that's it you sneaky little brat, this is the last lesson I'll 
> ever give you, not only do you not practice but you've invaded my 
> personal memories. I'm not going to teach you any more.'  What 
Snape 
> does say, in a moment of enraged stress, is "Get out, get out, I 
> don't want to ever see you in this office again!" (OotP US ed. 
650).  
> Snape doesn't actually say 'I won't teach you,' and he doesn't ban 
> him from the potions classroom, only from his office, which would 
be 
> his sanctuary and private lair.

Umm, I just went back and reread "Snape's worst memory" and I think 
that "Get out, get out. I don't want to ever see you in this office 
again" is a pretty good indication that Snape does not want to teach 
Harry , or at least it is a very reasonable assumption to make on 
Harry's part.

I would make that assumption and I am almost twice as old as 
Harry. :o)

Ending the lesson is not solely Snape's fault (it is Dumbledore's , 
of course. :o)), but he has a lion share, IMO.

Alla

  




From jujupoet29 at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 26 04:33:10 2004
From: jujupoet29 at hotmail.com (sienna291973)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 04:33:10 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c405fp+d3ik@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c40bq6+58hg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94008

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" 
<susiequsie23 at s...> wrote:

> Q:  If you had to choose one teacher from your books to teach your 
> child, who would it be and why?  
> A:  It would be Professor Lupin, because he is kind, clever, and 
> gives very interesting lessons.  

I agree! Lupin is the perfect teacher because he is realistic about 
his charges.  In OoTP, he realises that some Extendable Ears would 
have survived and advises that Harry be told the truth from them 
rather than 'hearing' about it in other ways.  This shows a gentle 
wisdom which I very much like.  It's also possibly from his own days 
as a marauder that he realises that kids will be kids.

Sienna





From norek_archives2 at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 26 04:41:39 2004
From: norek_archives2 at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 04:41:39 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why does Ron have a crush on Hermione?
Message-ID: <BAY2-F13rpfjOCwIGRv00016b9c@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94009

>--JDR (who thinks that Luna is to Hermione as Viktor is to Ron: a
>wake-up call...)
>

Yup. Me too.  Luna likes Ron and shows it.  Ron (who probably doesn't mind a 
little eccentricity) may enjoy the sensation of being liked by a girl ... 
but Hermione may discover she doesn't like the sensation of watching Ron 
with someone else, even though she's been keeping him at arm's length 
herself.


Janet Anderson

_________________________________________________________________
Check out MSN PC Safety & Security to help ensure your PC is protected and 
safe. http://specials.msn.com/msn/security.asp




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 26 04:57:41 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 04:57:41 -0000
Subject: Animagi despised by Dark Wizards? (Was: Sirius/Tonks)
In-Reply-To: <c402ir+9f2o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c40d85+gfk9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94010

Witch Writer:
<snip>      Harry sees events in Oop from inside a snake. This is not 
> Nagini, as Harry experiences the reading or understanding of LV's 
> emotions and feelings. This means only on thing. The snake if LV. 
> That is very obvious that a great (evil though, but still very 
> powerful and great) wizard like LV will have the powers to be an 
> Animagus. I am very sure that LV himself is an animagus and the DE's 
> dont have anything against the ability to be one. <snip>


Snape tells Harry in OoP that Harry saw the scene from the snake's
point of view because LV was possessing the snake, which does appear
to be Nagini (the only very large snake available for him to possess).
I can find the quote if you need it.

Carol
 





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 26 05:19:13 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 05:19:13 -0000
Subject: Fields of Magic (was Re: Potions Master Question)
In-Reply-To: <c404ba+j1fs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c40egh+2kl3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94011

> Neri:
> I realize I'm getting into dangerous water now, but why do you think 
> Snape has more status as a teacher than Flitwick? It is not my 
> impression at all. Snape is in the Order and DD trusts him, but this 
> is associated with his secret agent role, not his teaching position. 
> DD has trusted Hagrid even longer than he's trusted Snape, yet Hagrid 
> is surely not a high-status teacher. Again, this is only my 
> impression, but Flitwick's sense of humor and complete ease with the 
> students strikes me as a teacher who is very sure about his status, 
> while Snape's animosity is a typical defense mechanism for a teacher 
> who feels insecure. You don't see Flitwick (or McGonagall or Sprout) 
> haunting the corridors at night in search for rule-breaking students. 
> My reading of Snape's status in the eyes of his fellow teachers 
> is "talented and ambitious, but still young. Needs to cool down and 
> mellow a bit. In twenty years or so we might let him have a go at the 
> DADA or Transfiguration jobs".   

Carol:
I'm not so sure. As I stated in a different thread, the other
teachers, including the other heads of houses and acting headmistress
McGonagall, who is twice Snape's age, followed Snape's lead in getting
Gilderoy Lockhart out of the staffroom to "put up or shut up," as we
say in the U.S.--either act on his boasts and save Ginny or get out of
Hogwarts. ("Just the man. The very man," ff., CoS Am. ed. 294). Also
McGonagall says something about not being able to look Severus Snape
in the eye for weeks the last time Slytherin won the Quidditch cup. So
it sounds to me as if, despite his age, he's a respected college--in
marked contrast to Gilderoy Lockhart or Dolores Umbridge. And he's one
of only four heads of houses, again despite his age.

Also it's possible that Potioncat and others are thinking of Snape's
position as Dumbledore's righthand man--always present to help him in
a crisis, most notably in the later books, GoF and OoP (where he
contacts DD and works with him even though DD is not at Hogwarts). I'd
call him DD's trusted lieutenant. And "prowling" the halls is part of
Snape's role as the rule enforcer. Somehow, I can't see Flitwick or
Sprout being quite as effective.

Carol, who agrees that Snape is young, talented, ambitious and needs
to mellow down but doesn't think the other teachers look down on him
for these qualities




From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Fri Mar 26 05:23:41 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 05:23:41 -0000
Subject: If DD knows, then why...? [was: Snape, trying very hard not to smile?]
In-Reply-To: <c40b4t+6m3g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c40eot+rbf2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94012

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" 
<justcarol67 at y...> wrote:
> > SUSAN:
> <snip>
> > I am left w/ the question that Potioncat has alluded to:  Do 
others 
> > think Snape was trying to discover whether Harry is a 
> > Parselmouth...or do you think he was just being mean...or setting 
up 
> > some other "test" for Harry?
> 
> Carol:
> I don't think Snape is ever "just being mean." There's a method in 
his
> meanness, so to speak. I don't know what he was attempting to 
discover
> by having Draco cast serpensortia, but it must have had some 
purpose.
> Maybe he simply thought it was an appropriate spell for a Slytherin 
to
> cast and one that Harry would need to watch out for at some point. I
> don't see how he could have known about the basilisk or guessed that
> Harry spoke Parseltongue, but he certainly realized the significance
> when Harry did so. Whether Snape knew anything about young Tom 
Riddle
> or not, he certainly knew that LV was a Parseltongue and that the 
gift
> (or is it a curse?) was very rare.  So believe it or not, I'm on the
> fence with this one. (Scoot over, Sue! Make room for me!)
> 
> 
>  Potioncat wondered:
>  > Why do you think DD knew Tom Riddle opened the Chamber?  I'm 
sure 
>  > he knew Hagrid didn't but what did he know for certain? How 
would 
>  > he know it was a basilisk? Perhaps he tried to talk to Myrtle, 
but 
>  > didn't learn anything. Harry had a difficult enough time getting 
>  > her to talk and she may not have talked to a professor.  For 
that 
>  > matter, DD may have been hampered in his investigation in the 
>  > early days by Headmaster Dippit 
> > 
> > 
> > SUSAN:
> > Yes, I think these are good questions as well. Is there something 
> > in canon which makes people *sure* DD knew Tom opened the Chamber 
> > and what was within it, or is it the "all-knowing DD" 
assumption?  
> > <snip>
> 
> Carol:
> Dumbledore may have suspected that Tom had opened the Chamber, but
> surely he would have testified against him at Hagrid's expulsion
> hearing if he had conclusive evidence. Instead, Hagrid's wand was
> broken and he was expelled. All Dumbledore could do was get him a 
post
> as gamekeeper (which begs the question of how a Transfiguration
> teacher who was not yet headmaster could hire a thirteen-year-old
> gamekeeper, and what happened to his predecessor, Ogg, but I won't 
go
> there). Meanwhile Tom got a special award for services to the 
school,
> killed his father and grandparents over the summer holiday, and
> returned to Hogwarts to become Head Boy. Did DD, who reads the 
Muggle
> papers, suspect him of that murder, too, and yet say nothing? Or 
maybe
> no one in the WW cared to listen because the dead people were just
> Muggles? I'm starting to find this train of thought disturbing.
> 
> To return to the point, I think Dumbledore suspected that Tom had
> opened the Chamber and may even have suspected that it contained a
> basilisk (the snake/Slytherin connection combined with the
> petrification of the students) but could prove nothing and so he did
> nothing. In CoS, when Mrs. Norris is petrified and the writing 
appears
> on the wall saying that the Chamber has been opened, he only says 
that
> Mrs. Norris is not dead but petrified and that no second year could
> have performed such advanced Dark Magic. Possibly he communicates 
his
> suspicions to Snape that the heir of Slytherin has returned to 
Snape,
> who would be on the alert for a Parseltongue who could open the
> Chamber, but he seems to have kept any suspicions that Riddle/
> Voldemort had returned to himself at that point.
> 
> When Colin Creevey is petrified, McGonagall asks what the melted
> camera lens means and DD answers, "It means that the Chamber of
> Secrets is indeed open again," and when she says, "But, Albus. . .
> surely . . . *who*?" he responds, "The question is not *who*, the
> question is *how*" (CoS Am. ed. 181-82). So it sounds as if he knows
> at that point that Riddle/Voldemort in some form has somehow opened
> the Chamber, but it's still not clear whether he knows that the
> creature is a basilisk. McGonagall, OTOH, is clearly clueless. For
> much of the rest of the book, DD is not even present. We learn at 
the
> end that he was one of the few people who knew that Tom Riddle was
> Voldemort--no indication of whether he already knew about the 
basilisk
> unless you count ssending a phoenis and a sword to help Harry. 
> 
> Well, I thought I knew where I was going on this post, but now I've
> succeeded in confusing myself. At any rate, I started out thinking
> that DD didn't know that Tom Riddle had opened the Chamber. Now I'm
> leaning the other way--he either knewor strongly suspected but had 
no
> proof.
> 
> Coming to my rescue, SSS?
> 
> Carol

I'll help Carol! (At least I will try.)  I didn't see any reluctance 
in Myrtle about sharing her experience, in fact when Harry 
asked, "Myrtle's whole aspect changed at once.  She looked as though 
she had never been asked such a flattering question."  CoS US pb 
299.  If DD had bothered to ask, she would have been more than 
willing to share.  

I tend to think that, as you said, there was no way for DD to prove 
what he believed.  There was probably nothing he could do about the 
Chamber either.  Only a Parselmouth can open it, he just had to wait 
and hope another one didn't come along.  I am sure if he had 
suspected TR would figure out a way to possess other people to do it 
for him he would have made *sure* that didn't happen.

Once it was open, all he could do was sit and wait.  Harry was the 
only one who could do anything about it anyway.  I do wonder why DD 
didn't just head down there with Harry but as others have already 
said, that would have made a very short book.  Maybe only a 
Parselmouth could destroy the Basilisk (or maybe only an ancestor or 
heir could)...

Sue, Who budges up on the fence to make room for Carol.  Welcome 
aboard!




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 26 05:34:16 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 05:34:16 -0000
Subject: Hagrid's blunder or can any student by head boy/girl
In-Reply-To: <c3vash+tca0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c40fco+fn3h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94013

-> Witchwriter: 
>     I may be wrong on this point, but I thought that I heard rather 
> read in the books(I dont have them with me to support my opinion with 
> canon.) that a headboy or girl can be only those who have been 
> prefects. So this would mean that hagrid ad his facts wrong.
> But the huger possiblity is my fact being wrong. 
>     Anycase, coming to Lilly being prefect and head girl( most 
> possibly both) , we have no canon evidence that they were both from 
> the same year. The students of one year write the exams together in 
> one hall. If Lilly had been in the same year, then she would have 
> written the exam in the big hall(to which Harry had been transposed 
> through Snapes pensieve.). But she was not to be discussed in the 
> hall I therefore strongly feel she must have been a year or more 
> younger than the Marauderers and Snape. She was among other girls 
> under a tree when the marauderers came out of the exam hall. 

Carol:
James was Head Boy, but we learn in OoP (from Sirius and Lupin) that
he was not a prefect. That honor went to the "good boy," Lupin, who
was not in detention all the time like James and Sirius. However,
James's high marks, the best in the school, apparently earned him the
honor of being appointed Head Boy without ever having been made a
prefect. 

Also, I'm fairly sure that Lily was in the same year as the others.
She appears to have been with a group of girls who left the OWL exam
at the same time as Severus and MWPP and sat down by the lake. Harry
didn't see her earlier because he was inside Snape's memory and could
only see what was relatively near him. Sorry I can't find page numbers
right now, but these topics have been previously discussed and you can
find them with our search engine if you're interested (and don't mind
spending a bit of time fussing with the darn thing).

Carol, who apologizes for the rushed post




From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Fri Mar 26 05:41:00 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 05:41:00 -0000
Subject: sirius as animagus - why didn't the deatheaters know pre OOP?
In-Reply-To: <c3vkh2+16os@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c40fpc+ce0m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94014

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <
Sue wrote:
<snip> Peter knew why Voldemort wanted the Potters and he knew there
was another couple who could have fulfilled the profecy. He sent that
horrible group to the Longbottoms to buy himself time to escape.
 
 
P.S. Although Wormtail may well have informed LV that the Longbottoms
as well as the Potters fit the Prophecy, he couldn't have been the one
who sent BRRB after the Longbottoms. He was already supposedly
"murdered" by Sirius (and apparently considered a traitor by Bellatrix
and Co. because of the backfired AK). The torture of the Longbottoms
occurred somewhat later, after most of the DEs were caught and people
were starting to feel safe.
 
Carol, who thought this was going to be a one-sentence post!

I don't know about this.  I know the Longbottoms were attacked later 
as you say, but that does not mean that the information was given to 
BRRB on the day they attacked.  IMVVHO Peter gave them the 
information the day after the Potters died and then ran for it.  
Sirius did not catch up to him until late the next day, plenty of 
time for him to meet up with other DEs point them in another 
direction and run.  Peter was hiding from the DE's, I just think he 
gave them more than one reason to want him.  He certainly did not 
have any problem with others getting hurt if it meant saving his own 
skin.

That's what I think anyway...One person who I KNOW is ESE!

Sue




From nkafkafi at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 26 05:46:38 2004
From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 05:46:38 -0000
Subject: Potions Master Question
In-Reply-To: <c3vgpo+ov3b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c40g3u+e7oe@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94015


> Carol:
<snip>
> Also, if DADA were more important than Potions, wouldn't one of the
> heads of houses be given that position? (If not Snape, for whatever
> reason, why not McGonagall? DD could probably find a skilled
> Transfiguration teacher to replace her, one of her own former star
> pupils, such as Bill Weasley, much more easily than he could 
replace a
> Potions Master like Snape.) But back to DADA--DD hires total
> incompetents rather than giving the position to McGonagall, Snape, 
or
> Flitwick. We don't know of anything the students learned from
> Quirrell; all they learned from Lockhart was not to release Cornish
> Pixies into a classroom and how *not* to defend yourself in a duel;
> and even Lupin only taught them how to deal with a few minor Dark
> beings or creatures or however you would classify hinkypunks and
> boggarts. (Mad Eye Moody never even got to teach because his 
position
> was taken over by a maniac, so I'm not counting him as a person DD
> hired. We don't know how he would have approached the subject.) 
Surely
> if DADA were more important than the key courses taught by the heads
> of houses, he'd have taught it himself rather than hiring such 
people.
> 
> I concede that DADA is important, especially with a war coming, but 
I
> don't think it's the single most important course. (I also don't see
> Transfiguration as being more important than Potions, as you said in
> another post. Maybe vanishing spells will prove important, but
> transfiguring a rat into a teacup?)
> 
> Carol, who hopes the students will have a decent DADA teacher next
> year and that both Transfiguration and Potions will play a part in 
the
> coming war

Neri:
What's going on with the DADA position, this is one of the great 
mysteries in the HP saga. It is extremely strange that it is so 
difficult to find a competent teacher and that no one survives more 
than a year. The current Hogwarts teachers are hardly the only 
possible candidates. There must be hundreds of wizards in Britain who 
could still do it better than Quirrell, Lockhart or Umbridge. All 
this is perfectly true even if we assume that DADA is less 
prestigious than Potions. However, if we assume (as Snape himself 
seems to think) that DADA is more prestigious than Potions, then this 
mystery is even more intriguing. And I happen to like intriguing 
mysteries.

I already gave in this thread all my reasons to think that 
Tranfiguration is the most prestigious field. Note again, I DON'T say 
it is the most important. I say it is the most PRESTIGIOUS. This is a 
different thing altogether. 

Neri





From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Fri Mar 26 05:53:31 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 05:53:31 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore's bad descisions?
In-Reply-To: <c3vri9+r6t5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c40ggr+u6oq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94016

Snip  
I agree with Earendil that Sirius knew he'd be a very unsafe guardian
for Harry, especially if he murdered Peter as he apparently intended,
so he accepted DD's arrangements, even giving (lending?) Hagrid his
motorbike to carry them out. In a way it's too bad that Hagrid didn't
know about the Secret Keeper arrangement because he would have angrily
confronted Sirius and Sirius would just has angrily have defended
himself. Instead he went off to murder Peter and, even though his plan
failed, ruin his own life.
 
 Carol

Sue who has pulled out Nit Picker badge and is ready to go.

IIRC (and of course, I have been known to be horribly wrong), Sirius 
went to FIND and CONFRONT Peter.  Not to murder him.  In the 
Shrieking Shack he tells Lupin to hurry up because he wants to commit 
the murder he was convicted of.  He never says he intended to kill 
Peter when he found him the day after the Potters were murdered.

Sue, who cannot find her copy of PoA anywhere since her 7 year old 
decided to read it. :(




From snapesmate at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 26 07:21:41 2004
From: snapesmate at hotmail.com (snapesmate)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 07:21:41 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore's bad descisions?
In-Reply-To: <c40ggr+u6oq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c40lm5+i9bs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94017

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "suehpfan" <stanleys at s...> 
wrote:
> Snip  
> I agree with Earendil that Sirius knew he'd be a very unsafe 
guardian
> for Harry, especially if he murdered Peter as he apparently 
intended,
> so he accepted DD's arrangements, even giving (lending?) Hagrid his
> motorbike to carry them out. <snip>>  
>  Carol
> 
> Sue who has pulled out Nit Picker badge and is ready to go.
> 
> IIRC (and of course, I have been known to be horribly wrong), 
Sirius 
> went to FIND and CONFRONT Peter.  Not to murder him.  In the 
> Shrieking Shack he tells Lupin to hurry up because he wants to 
commit 
> the murder he was convicted of.  He never says he intended to kill 
> Peter when he found him the day after the Potters were murdered.
> 
> Sue, who cannot find her copy of PoA anywhere since her 7 year old 
> decided to read it. :(

Sirius DID want to take Harry, but Hagrid told him no, that Professor 
Dumbledore had told him to bring Harry to him.  That's when Sirius 
gave/loaned him the motorbike.  AFTER Hagrid says he is taking 
Harry.  I think Sirius felt now that with James and Lily were dead, 
betrayed by ratboy, AND without Harry his godson...  wait a minute, 
back the bike up...  WHY would Sirius say he wouldn't need his bike 
anymore?!  Because James and Lily were dead?  Because ratboy was a 
Voldemort butt kisser?  Because he had mistakenly thought Remus the 
spy?  Because Dumbledore would not let him have Harry?  I don't think 
so...  I could see him giving up the bike IF he was going to have an 
infant to tote around, but at that point he wasn't.

Lynnette, who thinks Snape IS a good guy, even if he is NOT a nice
guy!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterverseofadults




From tarasekd at colorado.edu  Fri Mar 26 04:24:16 2004
From: tarasekd at colorado.edu (Kimberly)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 04:24:16 -0000
Subject: Hagrid's blunder or can any student by head boy/girl
In-Reply-To: <c3vash+tca0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c40b9g+5rp3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94018

Witch Writer:
> Anycase, coming to Lilly being prefect and head girl( most 
> possibly both) , we have no canon evidence that they were both 
from 
> the same year. The students of one year write the exams together 
in 
> one hall. If Lilly had been in the same year, then she would have 
> written the exam in the big hall(to which Harry had been 
transposed 
> through Snapes pensieve.). But she was not to be discussed in the 
> hall I therefore strongly feel she must have been a year or more 
> younger than the Marauderers and Snape. She was among other girls 
> under a tree when the marauderers came out of the exam hall. 


Kimberly:
Lily was in the same exam as MWPP, and is therefore almost 
definitely in the same year as them.  On page 567 (UK):
"The sunlight was dazzling on the smooth surface of the lake, on the 
bank of which the group of laughing girls who had just left the 
Great Hall were sitting, with their shoes and socks off, cooling 
their feet in the water."   Then, as Lily comes up to stop James 
from tormenting Snape (p.570): "It was one of the girls from the 
lake edge.  She had thick, dark red hair that fell to her shoulders, 
and startlingly green almond-shaped eyes-- Harry's eyes." 



Kimberly





From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net  Fri Mar 26 07:35:28 2004
From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 01:35:28 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
References: <c407le+gemd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <006501c41304$e9600ec0$05030f04@dslverizon.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 94019

{Silverthorne}
**Hears the fighting ring bell go off...lol! ^^;}

Great to see you, Alla. Shall we? :)

{Alla}

You said that just because we don't see Snape with a loved one, does not
mean that he can't love? Well, after OoP that is exactly how I feel - I
don't see Snape being capable of love. In fact I don't see him being capable
feeling anything else, but hate. Surely, this hate is manifested towards
Harry and Sirius, but we mainly see Snape interacting with them.

{Silverthorne}

Then you are basing that assumption on a lopsided opinion--one you pointed
out yourself. You see him interacting with Sirius and Harry--but JUST Sirius
and Harry. Basing his whole atttiude on the interaction with just a few
people he comes into contact with is a mis service--it would be if you
applied that to any person. These three do nto get along--so it's no surpise
we see Snape at his worst. But we have yet to see him at his best, so it's
still an unfair comparison. remember, JKR let's us see only through Harry's
eyes--and Harry is not exactly impartial, nor is he all-knowing.

Personally, I think Severus can feel love. Why? If Snape could no longer
love, then he would have had absolutely no reason to leave the DE. The DE do
not love, in fact, they value the one trait that most associated with
Snape--hate. Hate of Muggles, hate of Half Bloods, absolute distain of
everything but that which they value. If Severus truly felt this way, then
he would have had no reason for a crisis of conscience 11 years before the
first book started...no reason to change his mind about where he stood on
things. No reason at all to go to Dumbledore and go "I was wrong, and now I
want out". He certianly would not have gone back IN as a spy 'at great
personal risk'  again 11 years later (Surely he could have come up with a
good reason in thoise 11 years for why he could no longer help Dumbledore
out that way--he IS intelligent and smart after all). It takes love in order
to risk yourself that way...and it would have to be the real article to
still be willing to do it 11 years after everything was thought to be over
and done with in the first place...it may not be a hands on,  'Aw let's hug
it' kind of love, but it is there, in the form of self-sacrifice if nothing
else.

Yes, we can see hate when Snape deals with Sirius. But sorry, but I would
have a very hard time *not* hating a man who almost sent me to my death at
the jaws of a were-wolf, even if it was 'only a prank'. What a poor excuse
to be made by a young man who, from what it looks like in the pensieve, was
brilliant enough to pass his OWLs with little effort--including his DADA
test (which means he knows, as well as anyone can, what a werewolf would do
to an interloper in its territory). If the man was so damned smart, why
didn't it occur to him that his little prank would likely result in murder?

Going further, my hate would get worse when, as adults, the man continued to
bait me, despite the fact that we are both adults and supposedly working
together. I am human, so is Snape. I am no more surprised by his reaction
(and consider it completely valid) as you are by Harry's. There is more than
one side to this, and Snape is not the only one 'at fault' in these
scenarios. As much blame lies on Sirius's shoulders--he's just as capable of
seeing past his own hurts as Snape is, and yet fails just as miserably in
doing so.

The hope for Snape lies in the man eventually seeing beyond that. He may not
have managed it with Sirius--then again, Sirius did not make it easy for
him. Neither does Harry (Yes, I know 'But Harry, as the child, should not
have to be the one to back down first'. To that, I say 'Horsefeathers!' He's
smart enough to know how to--just because someone else can't or won't
doesn't excuse *him*. If he uses that logic, he'll become falsely
self-righteous and *wrong* in his thinking--he might even go as far as TR
did in how he treats people (you are only worthy of being treated humanely
if you meet *these* criteria) .

Or are you trying to say that smart, talented Harry cannot figure out right
from wrong 'despite' some ogre of an adult? That's not giving Harry any
credit at all. I'd rather give him credit for being able to adjust his
attitude than let him wallow!

{Alla}

I am not a cynical person at all and for me to be able to feel something for
the character said character should be able to express some positive
emotions.

{Silverthorne}

Well, that just means you prefer 'happy' characters, and that's not a big
deal. But to condemn the not so postive ones is to disqualify thier rights
as a human (not that it matters since they are fictional characters, but
still...). Harry has good reasons for how he is, so does Sirius. So does
Snape. You may not like how he reacts, but his reactions are no less valid,
just different, and not how you would prefer to react. At least he's not
torturing and killing muggles and half bloods for a living...

{Alla}

Yes, Sirius loves certain people  and hates others, but frankly I am  amased
that after the Azkaban he is still capable of feeling love to ANYBODY and I
love him for that, not for some "cool package" What did you mean by that, by
the way? :o)

{Silverthorne}

Let's see, he's pretty (or was). He loves the hero, he was the type to ride
a motorcycle, so he has a wild streak (one that is proven through when he
eggs Harry on in some of his adventures), he was one of the popular kids
when he was younger, he manages to 'survive' despite all life has thrown at
him, he knows which people to hate (Snape the grouch included right along
with the DE and other evil wizards). In other words, he's *cool* to the
average youthful eye (and often to the adults as well) He's what every
hotheaded, messed up, but well-meaning 'hero' *should* be according to
current societal values, and so the readers love him for it. As for
surviving Azkaban--I'm not all that amazed. He had a purpose that he clung
to, he knew he was innocent, he had his dog form to rely on when it got to
be too much as a human. I admire him for hanging on as long as he did, but
I'm not really surprised, any more than I am surprised that Harry holds up
as well as he does in his situation. Why? Because both of them are extremely
strong willed--often to the point of often not listening to others. They are
survivors (and as a fellow survivor, I admire them, but don't automatically
catapult them to 'god-like' status for it). Azkaban was not a walk in the
park, but I don't think it reallty twisted Sirius all that much. Much of his
personality is still intact--you can line up Sirius-now next to Sirius-then
(in the penseive) and see exactly where each and every present day trait
came from, and it wasn't exposure to the Dementors that made him how he is
in present time. Sirius always was the way he is now, minus the depression
and sulking we see in OotP (Which is easily enough explained by
understanding that this is not a personality type meant to be locked in a
house with nowehere to go for a long time).

{Alla}

Sirius is a broken, hurting man, who would greatly benefit (as many  HP
characters, IMO) from spending many hours with the psychologist. Yes, I give
him a break, because I see him as a character, who is capable to feel some
positive things and yes, because he loves my favourite character. Harry sure
needs that.

{Silverthorne}

Severus is also a broken, hurting man (although its a little harder to see
past all those spines he wears to keep everyone at a safe distance) who
would benefit from a pyschologist. I see him as capable of postive things,
and feelings (although some insane part of me would be jealous, ^^; , I
really WOULD like to see the 'Severus Falls in Love' rumor come to fruition
in book 7--perhaps then you would see that he really is just as human and
worthy of human regard as your favs.)--by the same token though, he does NOT
have the luxury of expressing those feelings as Sirius does, for the simple
reason that he is a *spy*--one that is under constant scrutiny from one time
DE friends, as well as the *children* of those DE. It's a scrutiny Snape
cannot escape, since he teachers these very kids, right alongside Harry. We
know Draco reports everything he sees to his father--I'm sure there are
other DE children that do the same. Snape endulging in the same emotional
state as Sirius would get him killed quicker than you can say "Avada
Kadavra"--his very life hangs in the balance of being convincing enough in
all areas of his life as the Bastard from Hell who Hates Harry Potter. But
again, are you taking that into account? No. And that's a shame. Because his
attitude is not all nice and cheerful, you discount him. Because he delivers
lessons to Harry (yes, harshly) that perhaps the boy SHOULD learn, he's a
monster.

He really isn't, but you have to look past the convincing outer packaging
and various masks to see it. Snape does care (although some, like Kneasy,
would argue its because he's saving his own skin...^^), he is capable of
love, and he isn't quite the monster he appears to be. Unfortunately, he is
in a roll he first built for himself as a DE and now must maintain for the
sake of intelligence gathering, even if that's not really what lies beneath
the surface any more (well, okay, he's probably still a snarky git, but I
still think there's a very human heart in there). In other words, the
adults, who read this and can think things through, need to do what Harry
cannot, and take more than a surface look at Snape before they start hauling
off with the accusations. There's more to this whole thing than poor Harry
being picked on.

{Alla}

Just realised that I keep talking about Sirius in the present tense. Well,
never mind. :)

{Silverthorne}

That's okay, I don't think he's really gone either. Since when has a little
case of the 'deads' stopped someone like Sirius in a story like this? ;)
We'll see him again, I'm sure. Maybe death will knock a little sense and
tolerance into him. It would be nice to see--and something I hope for. Much
as I hope Harry proves to be worthy of the 'hero' moniker and drags his
silly, 16 year old butt out of his teenage funk and starts acting like the
responsible young man I know he can be once he starts using that brain of
his. In order to defeat Voldemort, he'll have to. I just hope it's before
his 'natural' teenage attitude costs him something...like the life of a
close friend.


{Alla}

I know that there is a chance of learning that Snape loved one time. Well I
for once will be very happy to learn that, but so far yes, I will defend
Harry and Sirius much more.

{Silverthorne}

Hey, I wouldn't have it any other way--I just hope someday you'll give Snape
his due is all. *winks*

Anne







From thirdgenesis at nexusanime.com  Fri Mar 26 04:27:10 2004
From: thirdgenesis at nexusanime.com (JMB)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 22:27:10 -0600
Subject: Lupin's resentment/getting anything right
In-Reply-To: <c3v8si+5185@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ZYVUGGE045ZHE644XE9LHIC934Y6ZOM.4063b11e@hppav>

No: HPFGUIDX 94020

Well, now that I've read up on the FAQ and that Humongous Bigfile, I feel 
somewhat confident that my first post here won't violate any rules.  :)

Before I get to my reply, I'd just like to make a quick mention that this is 
literally my first day on this list.  My friend Melissa kept harping on me to 
check out the books, which I (like so many others, I'd imagine) dismissed as 
mere 'children stories.'  I finally caved in and have not regretted a moment of 
it.

I'd also like to say that from reading what I could of the archives and today's 
60+ posts alone, I think I'm going to like this group.  :)  It looks like you 
have a lot of good people here.  Please forgive me if I mess up at any point 
during my likely infrequent posts.  ^^;



>Potioncat:
>Thank you for bringing that up.  I've been wondering about 2 
>things.  Why should it be Lupin who talks to Snape, rather than 
>Sirius?



As someone else has mentioned, I imagine he volunteered to do it because he 
could keep his temper better than Sirius could, especially after the 
confrontations those two had already had.



Potioncat:
>And, did he ever talk to Snape?  
>For the all the insistance 
>that occlumency is important, there didn't appear to be any follow 
>up.




I thought that odd myself, and kept waiting for some kind of mention of Lupin 
and Snape's talk. I wonder if it will be brought up in the next volume or simply 
dismissed; I have to believe the former, considering JKR has taken things that 
at first appeared to be ignored but picked it up in later books.



Tcy:
>Unless I'm way behind the curve here, this would seem to mean
>that the vast majority of our speculations are going to be blown out 
>of the water.  Or is it just playing the odds that if we speculate 
>enough, we'll eventually hit something?



Possibly.  Myself, I gave up trying to guess what happens around the end of the 
second book.  I was tired of being wrong all the time.  :)

(Although admittedly I did guess a few minor plots correctly in the fourth and 
fifth books, but that's the best I can do.  :)





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From vaseemf at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 26 04:17:46 2004
From: vaseemf at yahoo.com (vaseemf)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 04:17:46 -0000
Subject: Snape outing Harry as Parselmouth (was Re: If DD knows, then why..?)
In-Reply-To: <c3vk56+o94h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c40ata+avp5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94021

Eustace_Scrubb happened to have the book at hand:
> >>snipping canon quote about duel<
>  
> > What I want to know is how many 2nd years can do a competent
> > serpensortia?

> Potioncat:
> This is a good question.  While I am no fan of Draco's, he appears 
> to be a very competent young wizard. Some think that Snape "gives" 
> him good marks, but I tend to think he earns them.  What Snape 
does 
> is to ignore his misbehavior.


S. Mehmood (me):

Well.. as for Draco earning his grades in Potions, I tend to 
disagree. If Snape does not want former DEs to know that he has 
switched sides, he must still act like he is a DE. It seems as 
though the DEs stuck together after Voldemorts fall (Malfoy and 
McNair seemed pretty close, same with Malfoy Crabbe and Goyle). 
Giving Draco bad grades would have 
looked pretty suspicious. However, I dont mean does not 
contradict the claim that Draco is competent, Im just saying he 
probably doesnt need to be competent to do well in Snapes class. I 
do, however, agree that Draco is a "very competent yound wizard."

As for the 2nd year serpensortia thing, I seem to agree with you. It 
is akin to conjuring, something that 5th years haven't reached. It 
was also a live animal (a vertebrate no less). I think it may have 
been a slight flint, because I doubt Malfoy is that skilled, 
esspecially when it doesnt seem as though he had practiced the spell 
thoroughly before he used it.





From magarama11 at aol.com  Fri Mar 26 05:50:41 2004
From: magarama11 at aol.com (peliroja1118)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 05:50:41 -0000
Subject: married professors?
Message-ID: <c40gbh+kv5u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94022

I saw a question in the JKR interview (for the red-nose comic thing, 
I don't remember the name), where she was asked whether Hogwarts 
professors have spouses. JKR replied that, yes, some do, but she 
wouldn't/couldn't say more. Any thoughts on why we haven't seen them 
yet? (or even heard of them?) Does anyone think they will be 
important to the plot later on?
-peliroja





From carolynwhite2 at aol.com  Fri Mar 26 09:03:21 2004
From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 09:03:21 -0000
Subject: Lets ask the kids (was getting anything right)
In-Reply-To: <Sea2-F46Svux4Jf7zyn00008752@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <c40rkp+32ie@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94023

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathy King" <kking0731 at h...> 
wrote:
In closing I would like to say that children may not have all the 
answers but they can sure point out when someone looks suspicious 
when we, as adults, just accept them because of our feelings for the 
character.
> 

Carolyn:
Ok, as we have to admit that 11000+ adults havn't quite figured it 
out yet, lets take a new and cunning route! Calling all you parents, 
teachers, aunties, uncles, whatever, out there: let's hear the best 
of the kids' take on the series/plot, and see if they have spotted 
something that we haven't.




From kashelkar at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 26 09:01:41 2004
From: kashelkar at yahoo.com (kashelkar)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 09:01:41 -0000
Subject: why are prophecies stored in glass orbs??
Message-ID: <c40rhl+ru6t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94024

Why do MoM people save the prophecies in glass orbs??  Is not there 
any other method of saving the thousands of prophecies in a better, 
safer and more secure way (consuming less space, maybe)?  Do we 
always have to destroy a prophecy to listen to it?   What purpose is 
served by saving the prophecies in fragile glass orbs, which only a 
single person in the world can touch and which can only be listened 
to after destroying it (ie. only one time use)??  

What happens to the prophecies, when the person who could ever touch 
it, passes away??  What kind of a "Anti-touching" spell is put on 
them which even the DEs can't nullify??  What could possibly be the 
procedure for recording a prophecy which was announced in a corner of 
the country by a Seer,(who could hardly remember anything spoken at 
that moment) to an audience?? I.e., are the people listening to the 
Seer expected to report to the MoM, so that a prophecy could be 
created or what??

"kashelkar" 




From kashelkar at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 26 08:45:00 2004
From: kashelkar at yahoo.com (kashelkar)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 08:45:00 -0000
Subject: Apparating into the Ministry...
In-Reply-To: <c3q22c+fli5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c40qic+am08@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94025

(snipped)

> Catherine McK responds:
> It is (from our present knowledge) far more difficult for Voldie 
> to get Harry to take the prophecy that for LV to do it himself. 
> So why does he get Harry to do the deed? To my mind there are 
> three possible answers ?
>  
> 1) JKR didn't plot well enough.
> 2) There were additional problems for Voldemort, which will be 
>    revealed at a later date
> 3) Someone was giving Voldemort bad advice. 
>
> We know that Voldemort cannot gather all the information he 
> makes his decisions on himself, and sometimes that information 
> turns out to be wrong, e.g. plan (a) was based on the fact that 
> Avery believed Imperiused!Bode could get the prophecy. After its 
> failure, presumably Rookwood then said "My Lord, it must be you or 
> Potter". What happened then we don't know. Maybe LV did intend to 
> whisk in himself to get it until another DE suggested that was a 
> high-risk approach. A cunning, ambitious DE who didn't actually 
> want the plan to succeed, and knew his way around the Ministry, for 
> example (yes, I'm back on my Traitor!Lucius hobby horse).


Kashelkar's reply:

Catherine's last post indeed is interesting.  All her possibilities 
about Voldy not grabbing the prophecy himself look very plausible.  
And we can't guess a thing about it as we are not aware of the Voldy's 
side of the entire episode...  What was going on at their end, or how 
Voldy plans etc., etc.  Hence, we've to wait till HP6 is out.... 
However, I still feel that JKR should have created the plot in such a 
manner as to provide the readers a better insight about the things 
going on around in the book....


Steffy:
> IF LV whisks into the Ministry and steals the Prophecy, then it 
> would have been obvious that he had, in fact, returned.  By 
> convincing Harry to sneak into the Ministry, LV has solved that 
> problem.  <snip> 


Kashelkar's reply:

I, however, don't agree fully to this.  I had mentioned it earlier 
also, that if Voldy was afraid that stealing the prophecy himself 
would reveal his re-appearance, he could always create a fake glass 
orb and replace the authentic prophecy with the fake one.  It is 
never mentioned that HP's prophecy is recieving any special attention 
from the DoM/MoM employees.





From Elvishooked at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 26 10:04:53 2004
From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 10:04:53 -0000
Subject: Lets ask the kids (was getting anything right)
In-Reply-To: <c40rkp+32ie@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c40v85+ijaf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94026

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" wrote:
Carolyn:
> Ok, as we have to admit that 11000+ adults havn't quite figured it 
> out yet, lets take a new and cunning route! Calling all you 
parents, 
> teachers, aunties, uncles, whatever, out there: let's hear the best 
> of the kids' take on the series/plot, and see if they have spotted 
> something that we haven't.

As for me - I had not given it a thought that it might not be 
Bellatrix who fired the shots against Sirius when I read the book 
alone.
Later - when it was translated into my language I read it out loud to 
my 11-year old son. When we got to the fighting part in the DOM - the 
first thing *he* said after hearing the incident between Sirius and 
Bellatrix was: "She didn't do it. The shot came from somewhere else!"

Inge




From catherinemck at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 26 10:35:17 2004
From: catherinemck at hotmail.com (catherinemckiernan)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 10:35:17 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore's bad descisions?
In-Reply-To: <c40lm5+i9bs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c41115+5uk4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94027

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snapesmate" <snapesmate at h...> 
wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "suehpfan" <stanleys at s...> 
> wrote:
> > Snipped stuff not about the bike!

Lynette wrote:

> Sirius DID want to take Harry, but Hagrid told him no, that 
Professor 
> Dumbledore had told him to bring Harry to him.  That's when Sirius 
> gave/loaned him the motorbike.  AFTER Hagrid says he is taking 
> Harry.  I think Sirius felt now that with James and Lily were dead, 
> betrayed by ratboy, AND without Harry his godson...  wait a minute, 
> back the bike up...  WHY would Sirius say he wouldn't need his bike 
> anymore?!  Because James and Lily were dead?  Because ratboy was a 
> Voldemort butt kisser?  Because he had mistakenly thought Remus the 
> spy?  Because Dumbledore would not let him have Harry?  I don't 
think 
> so...  I could see him giving up the bike IF he was going to have 
an 
> infant to tote around, but at that point he wasn't.

I'd have thought on the contrary, the Bike is helpful if Sirius takes 
Harry as Sirius then has to carry a child (there's no absolute 
evidence that one can't apparate carrying a child, but the fact that 
James shouts to Lily "Take Harry and run" would suggest to me that 
one can't), which transport would make easier. Once Sirius realises 
that Hagrid is taking HArry, he has lost everything; the Potters, 
James and Lily, Peter, probably even Lupin; he's got nothing left to 
do but go after Peter. The bike will help get Harry to safety, but 
Sirius is past caring about himself.

Poor man.

Catherine McK




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Fri Mar 26 10:36:22 2004
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 10:36:22 -0000
Subject: The power LV knows not
In-Reply-To: <c3v8js+oqff@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c41136+t6q0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94028

David wrote:
> > Like Melanie, I'm inclined myself to the view that Riddle did 
know 
> > love and decided, at some level, to reject it and, having 
rejected 
> > it, now cannot understand it.

Tip:
> I don't see real textual evidence for this.  Also, to reject 
> something, doesn't a person of LV's intelligence usually 
understand 
> it first?  What if it were useful to him?

That (textual evidence) is a fair comment - I was being fairly 
speculative in my approach.  My reasoning is essentially based on 
themes: that it is choices that make us what we are (or at least 
show what we are, which is what Dumbledore actually said); thus that 
some fairly mega choices were made by Riddle fairly early in his 
life; that one thing that crops up at key moments is love; thus that 
likely a major life-defining choice of Riddle's involved love in 
some way.  A secondary line of reasoning is that Harry is a sort of 
mirror of Voldemort - or Riddle at Harry's 'current' age - and that 
a key element of Harry is the love protection he has (interesting to 
note that combining these two lines of thinking implies that, even 
as a baby, Harry's co-operation in his protection may have been 
required, presumably some kind of inner acceptance and trust of his 
mother), and thus that Riddle's own relation to love is a key 
element for him.

But I agree, there is no direct support from Riddle or Voldemort's 
testimony about his early life.

As far as Voldemort's intelligence is concerned, that's an 
interesting issue in its own right.  I wasn't thinking of him 
rejecting abstract 'love' as a useless or unnecessary concept, 
rather of his moral development being formed by his responses to 
specific loving actions.  You are right about Dumbledore - he is 
distant in the one scene we see.

However, while no doubt Voldemort is very good at exams and, you 
know, maths and stuff, one must question the intelligence of someone 
who so systematically earns the hatred and fear of so many people, 
and sacrifices even the goodwill of his supporters (what do you 
suppose Wormtail, say, or Avery, might do if offered genuine 
security from punishment by their master?).  There is more to 
intelligence than calculation, or even legilimency.

> Ceck out my journal: http://www.livejornal.com/users/tipgardner

journal, not jornal

David




From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Fri Mar 26 10:46:09 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 10:46:09 -0000
Subject: getting anything right
In-Reply-To: <c3vm8k+fgjv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c411lh+rsqq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94029

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tracy Hunt" <tcyhunt at e...> wrote:
> In January, 2003 there were several poles (that remained open until 
> the release of OotP) on this site asking for various predictions 
> regarding the series so far.  We can go back through those now and 
> see how far off base many of us were.  We can also survey the 
> scuttled vessels at the bottom of the TBAY with similar results.  
> Very few among us have been even a little close on major events and 
> still fewer nailed any details.  How does this bode for our current 
> theories and speculations?  
> 
> Someone (sorry, I cannot remember who at the moment) recently said in 
> a post that with all of the information (5 books, 2 schoolbooks, many 
> interviews, several chats, etc.) from JKR, it's getting harder
> for her to keep us in the dark and that the odds of someone figuring 
> it all out are tipping in our favor.  But is that true?  I, for one, 
> have been absolutely gobsmacked by most of what I've read in the 
> books.  I didn't see it coming until I was practically on top of
> it.  Oh, I had glimpses of ideas about a few things ? but for the 
> most part, I've fallen hook, line and sinker for all of JKR's
> ploys.
> 
> Unless I'm way behind the curve here, this would seem to mean
> that the vast majority of our speculations are going to be blown out 
> of the water.  Or is it just playing the odds that if we speculate 
> enough, we'll eventually hit something?
> 

Get things right? Good heavens!  What's that got to do with anything?
Remember that  quote  from 'Alice' -  "I can think of six impossible
things before breakfast." Could be the motto for the  site.

JKR has happily admitted that  she's taken great  pains to stuff clues
and red herrings into the  books -  all we  have to do is decide which
is which and what they refer to, and what that will mean for the future
plot curve, and yes! that explains why that happened there, etc, etc.
Simple  really.

Except it's not. And  that's what makes it fun, because only one person
in the whole  wide world knows all the answers. Just on this site alone
there  are 11,000 fans beavering away, delving into the depths of plot
and characterisation, deconstructing text and even reading meaning 
into the derivation of names. Add all the other HP sites on the web and 
there is a cumulative brain power of awesome proportions analysing HP.
And where have we got? Nowhere. JKR 1, Fans 0.

Yes, a small group of fans got it right about Sirius going down the tubes
(no, I wasn't one of them) but so what? I bet that that they can't give a 
totally satisfactory answer as to why Sirius copped it in the neck. While
we appreciate and admire the way she has put the books together, most 
of the posts are naturally concerned with what happens next, usually by 
extrapolating from existing canon. It could  be argued  that this site and
others like it are an exercise in the breadth and scope of the imagination
of the fans as much as it is of JKR's.

I find it vastly amusing that while 5/7ths of the series is in my bookcase
I have no confidence at all in deciding what is likely  to happen in the 
remaining 2/7ths. That won't stop me being as dogmatic as the rest when
presenting my (current) favourite theory - something that happens about
once a week. As you point out, all the clues are (probably) published,
so why can't we offer a cut and dried solution? Well, we have. Hundreds 
of 'em. Now pick the correct one out from the rest. 

I can't speak for others but I doubt that I'd have joined the site if the 
series were already complete; poring over fixed and immutable canon is
not nearly so entertaining as second-guessing the mind processes of a 
first-class constructor of a who-dunnit / who-will-do-it / why-did-he
-do-it / how-will-he-do-it. It may be considered heresy but for some it
may be more fun to journey than to arrive. Oh, everyone wants to read
the conclusion of the tale - and then? A fair  amount of discussion and
critiques of the books, maybe an up-surge in Fan Fiction and then it will
probably slowly taper off, eventually leaving a hard-core of Potterverse 
devotees to discuss archane minutiae - a species of literary archaeology.

In the meantime - we make hay while  the  sun shines. Being right is
largely irrelevant IMO; being wrong in an interesting or entertaining way
is more fun than being stodgy but right. No-one is keeping score, after all=
.
And if in the process you can provoke supposed outrage or opposition.... 
Yes, there'll be a certain smug satisfaction if one's theory is confirmed,
momentary disappointment if it's not, but it'd hardly be an earth-
shattering trauma requiring intensive counseling.

My advice -  grab the opportunity to let your imagination run riot among
like-minded folk. I doubt there'll be a chance like this again.

 Kneasy





From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Fri Mar 26 11:06:57 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 11:06:57 -0000
Subject: why are prophecies stored in glass orbs??
In-Reply-To: <c40rhl+ru6t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c412sh+va65@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94030

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kashelkar" <kashelkar at y...> wrote:
> Why do MoM people save the prophecies in glass orbs??  Is not there 
> any other method of saving the thousands of prophecies in a better, 
> safer and more secure way (consuming less space, maybe)?  Do we 
> always have to destroy a prophecy to listen to it?   What purpose is 
> served by saving the prophecies in fragile glass orbs, which only a 
> single person in the world can touch and which can only be listened 
> to after destroying it (ie. only one time use)??  
> 

There are a couple of threads that have discussed this - or aspects of
it anyway.
79273 on why the Ministry may treat them the way they do,
79180 on prophets and prophecies (in HP and elsewhere) 

Always happy to hear different ideas ffrom other posters of course.
Come to think of it, posts that Prophecy have been infrequent  lately.
It's due for a revival.

Kneasy  




From vmonte at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 26 11:39:55 2004
From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 11:39:55 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <000f01c412bf$c7767820$05030f04@dslverizon.net>
Message-ID: <c414qb+fqu6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94031

Silverthorne writes:

My problem comes from people who bash Snape and yet cannot see those 
very same traits in Sirius or other chracters in the books. To me, 
it's a hypocritical treatment. Both men have had hard, abusive, 
unhappy lives that very likely screwed them both in the head. 

vmonte responds:

I agree with what you said about Sirius.  I think that Sirius was a 
danger to Harry and the Order. This does not mean that I wanted 
Sirius to die. In fact, I think that DD tried to keep Sirius from 
getting killed (several times), but failed because it was Sirius's 
destiny to die.  

Siruis was not a man that could easily be reasoned with.  He was a 
hot tempered guy who often reacted rashly! 

Sirius, like movie idol James Dean, lived hard and died young! 

Sirius's difficult life made him who he was.  (I for one would not 
have been able to live with the kind of mother he had!) 

Sirius was going to get killed no matter what, because Sirius was the 
only person who could be in charge of his own destiny.  

Sirius was very immature, although cool at the same time.  He never 
grew up -- life emotionally stunted him.

I have a lot to say about Snape but I will have to post this later.

vmonte







From belijako at online.no  Fri Mar 26 11:59:05 2004
From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 11:59:05 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <006501c41304$e9600ec0$05030f04@dslverizon.net>
Message-ID: <c415u9+dv9l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94032

Silverthorne wrote:

<snip>You see him [Snape] interacting with Sirius and Harry--but JUST 
Sirius and Harry. Basing his whole atttiude on the interaction with 
just a few people he comes into contact with is a mis service.<snip> 
These three don't get along--so it's no surpise we see Snape at his 
worst. But we have yet to see him at his best, so it's still an 
unfair comparison. remember, JKR let's us see only through Harry's
eyes--and Harry is not exactly impartial, nor is he all-knowing.<snip>

Berit replies:

I hope you're right; that we have yet to see Snape at his best. But 
fortunately, we have already seen him interact with other characters 
apart from Harry and Sirius. Up till the Shrieking Shack incident, he 
behaved impeccably towards Lupin (at least in public), even though he 
had big personal issues with the man. And compare his behaviour 
towards Umbridge with McGonagall's; it is clear (at least to me) that 
Snape did not much appreciate Umbridge and her interferences at 
Hogwarts, but he stays remarkably calm and composed; as passive and 
neutral as possible as not to provoke her unnecessarily, while 
McGonagall is openly fuming and on the verge of exploding (doing the 
exact opposite thing she warned Harry not to :-)! Of course; you 
might say self-control has nothing to do with love. But it has to do 
with strength of character, which I feel is a virtue related 
to 'love' (which also happens to be a principle/state of mind, not 
just a *feeling*).

Then there's Snape's relationship with Dumbledore and McGonagall. 
Here I think we can definitely say he does show 'love', even though 
it's not the extrovert, warm fuzzy type :-) Let me use McGonagall as 
an example: The way he interacts with her, he clearly respects her 
and even appreciates her company, despite them being fierce head of 
house rivals. Just look at the way he greets her when she returns to 
Hogwarts at the end of OotP... He's happy (or should I say at least 
not unhappy :-) to have her back, and doesn't protest (only very 
feebly) when she insists on giving Gryffindor an additional 250 
points... :-))

Also, Snape has shown himself to be very quick to defend Dumbledore 
(GoF: When Karkaroff claims DD has tampered with the Goblet of Fire). 
Of course, it could be argued that he only did it to put the blame on 
Harry instead :-) But just the way DD speaks of Snape as well, 
suggests not a boss/employee hierarchy, but a friendly, even intimate 
relationship; 'That's a matter between Snape and me'. Why, the man 
has actually trusted Dumbledore with his secrets! 

And as other listees have already posted, the few glimpses we see of 
Snape interacting with the other teachers (most notably the one in 
the staff room in CoS where they give Lockhart his due), show a 
mutual respect and understanding between the Hogwarts teachers 
(excluding Lockhart and Umbridge), and Snape is included as 'one of 
them'; he's not an outsider.

So yes; I can see Snape being capable of 'loving' :-)

Berit
http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html




From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 26 13:21:40 2004
From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 13:21:40 -0000
Subject: The immensely complex Homorphus Charm
Message-ID: <c41ap4+pf4n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94033

It's interesting that the discussion of Lupin pops up as I am 
relistening (I alternate between reading & listening) to CoS (US 
version). I mentioned the Homorphus Charm in a pervious post and--
voila!--I run across it.

In Chapter 9:

<<Harry was hauled to the front of the class during their very next 
Defense Against the Dark Arts lesson, this time acting a werewolf If 
he hadn't had a very good reason for keeping Lockhart in a good 
mood, he would have refused to do it. 

"Nice loud howl, Harry - exactly - and then, if you'll believe it, I 
pounced - like this - slammed him to the floor - thus with one hand, 
I managed to hold him down - with my other, I put my wand to his 
throat -I then screwed up my remaining strength and performed the 
immensely complex Homorphus Charm - he let out a piteous moan - go 
on, Harry - higher than that - good - the fur vanished - the fangs 
shrank - and he turned back into a man. Simple, yet effective - and 
another village will remember me forever as the hero who delivered 
them from the monthly terror of werewolf attacks." 

The bell rang and Lockhart got to his feet. 

"Homework - compose a poem about my defeat of the Wagga Wagga 
Werewolf! Signed copies of Magical Me to the author of the best 
one!">>

The following scenarios suggest themselves:

1- Lockhart made up the whole thing.
2- Some poor wizard (or witch) actually managed the HC, Lockhart 
smacked him (or her) with a memory charm and stole the credit.
2a- Lockhart will recover his memory (how he manages this feat is 
subject for another post on another day) and tell who was the person 
who DID manage the HC, who will then have his (or her) memory 
restored.
2b- Lockhart stays a babbling idiot and the secret is lost forever
3- Someone (Hermione?) remembers Lockhart talking/writing about the 
HC and reconstructs it. (There is ample evidence in the canon for 
people not having noticed something before. The Sirius Mirror is 
onesuch example. I just hope it's not too late for Lupin.)

As I type it out, I am leaning towards #3.

Discuss.

-Joe in SoFla




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Fri Mar 26 13:48:56 2004
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 13:48:56 -0000
Subject: The immensely complex Homorphus Charm
In-Reply-To: <c41ap4+pf4n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c41cc8+n59m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94034

Joe wrote:

> The following scenarios suggest themselves:
> 
> 1- Lockhart made up the whole thing.
> 2- Some poor wizard (or witch) actually managed the HC, Lockhart 
> smacked him (or her) with a memory charm and stole the credit.
> 2a- Lockhart will recover his memory (how he manages this feat is 
> subject for another post on another day) and tell who was the 
person 
> who DID manage the HC, who will then have his (or her) memory 
> restored.
> 2b- Lockhart stays a babbling idiot and the secret is lost forever
> 3- Someone (Hermione?) remembers Lockhart talking/writing about 
the 
> HC and reconstructs it. (There is ample evidence in the canon for 
> people not having noticed something before. The Sirius Mirror is 
> onesuch example. I just hope it's not too late for Lupin.)

There are other possibilities.  It may well be that the Homorphus 
Charm exists as described by Lockhart and is well-known to wizards 
(like Animagus or Secret-Keeping), but is of no use to Lupin.  It 
would suit Lockhart's publicity-seeking to claim credit for a known 
difficult spell: to claim credit for curing a hitherto incurable 
condition might result in too much eager attention from St Mungo's 
and a subsequent exposure that memory charms alone could not redress.

What Lockhart describes is the forcible transformation of a werewolf 
from wolf form into human form, which may well not be a cure for 
lycanthropy.  Presumably the issue for the villagers of Wagga Wagga 
was that they did not know which of their number was the werewolf.  
What the wizard with the hare lip (or whoever it was) did was to 
unmask the person.  What followed may have been incarceration, 
expulsion, or lynching, any of which might have 'solved' the problem 
from the villagers' point of view.  If the person survived, quite 
probably they transformed to wolf form as normal at the next full 
moon - or even ten minutes after the Charm was performed.

Of course, if Voldemort turns out to have a tame werewolf that he 
can use to frame Lupin, then Homorphus may become relevant.

David, who thought Wagga Wagga was a largeish town




From tipgardner at netscape.net  Fri Mar 26 14:10:55 2004
From: tipgardner at netscape.net (tipgardner)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 14:10:55 -0000
Subject: The power LV knows not
In-Reply-To: <c41136+t6q0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c41dlf+g3kr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94035

Hi David:

David wrote:
> That (textual evidence) is a fair comment - I was being fairly 
> speculative in my approach.  

Tip replied:
Fair enough.

David wrote:
>>My reasoning is essentially based on themes: that it is choices 
that make us what we are (or at least show what we are, which is what 
Dumbledore actually said); thus that some fairly mega choices were 
made by Riddle fairly early in his life; that one thing that crops up 
at key moments is love; thus that likely a major life-defining choice 
of Riddle's involved love in some way.<<

Tip replied:
That seems quite reasonable.  However, as many have pointed out, 
Tom's mother died just after naming him (which is within eight days, 
generally, in the UK) and his father apparently rejected him from the 
start.  One can only assume that a bizarre boy who was too clever by 
half and may well have been just as cruel as a very young child as he 
becasme later (although acknowledge that may not be the case) would 
nopt receive all that much love in a pre-war orphanage. 

David wrote:
>>A secondary line of reasoning is that Harry is a sort of mirror of 
Voldemort - or Riddle at Harry's 'current' age - and that a key 
element of Harry is the love protection he has (interesting to note 
that combining these two lines of thinking implies that, even as a 
baby, Harry's co-operation in his protection may have been required, 
presumably some kind of inner acceptance and trust of his mother), 
and thus that Riddle's own relation to love is a key element for 
him.  But I agree, there is no direct support from Riddle or 
Voldemort's testimony about his early life.<<

Tip replied:
Now here it gets interesting, because the mirror of Harry's 
acceptance of the love and trust his mother offered could be either 
it's equal and opposite, which, to paraphrase Betty Friedan, might be 
seen as indifference rather than hate, it might be the rejection of 
love and trust or it might be the embracing of hate and distrust.  So 
what would that say about the choices Tom made?  Whilst Harry is 
complicit in the charm/love in your point above, it is not a consious 
decision on his one and a half year old mind, it is his heart and 
soul accepting unthinkingly.  Couldn't Tom then have made his choice 
in the same manner and therefor not be totally repsonsible for its 
initial existance?

David wrote:
>>As far as Voldemort's intelligence is concerned, that's an 
interesting issue in its own right.  I wasn't thinking of him 
rejecting abstract 'love' as a useless or unnecessary concept, 
rather of his moral development being formed by his responses to 
specific loving actions.  You are right about Dumbledore - he is 
distant in the one scene we see.<<

Tip replied:
Hmmm...yes, I think I agree with you.  I suppose I would take a more 
holistic view.  LV's an iron will type of bloke and has rejected love 
on a moral, emotional and intellectual level.  But again I come up 
against his ability to feel and understand love in that instance and 
I believe that it would then not be a power he knows not.

David wrote:
>>However, while no doubt Voldemort is very good at exams and, you 
know, maths and stuff, one must question the intelligence of someone 
who so systematically earns the hatred and fear of so many people, 
and sacrifices even the goodwill of his supporters (what do you 
suppose Wormtail, say, or Avery, might do if offered genuine 
security from punishment by their master?).  There is more to 
intelligence than calculation, or even legilimency.<<

Tip replied:
With a wry chuckle, let me respond that neither did I think of maths 
and stuff.  However, I think he is again here, too clever by half.  
He can't run the type of organization he wants to run and he doesn't 
seem capable of satisfying his ego, in any other manner than the 
abject subservience of his DEs, etc.  So perhaps his ego is too 
rampant to be contained by his intelligence, perhaps he has a broadly 
decadent streak that will not permit him to say no to his baser 
desires and perhaps he understands/believes that he has no other 
choice than to treat people the way he does to achieve what he 
wants.  It is also conceivable, perhaps most rationally from a 
textual standpoint, that he does not care about people in the 
slightest except for how they help or hinder him on a micro and nacro 
level.

David wrote:
> journal, not jornal

Tip replied:
Thanks.  That was careless of me but I've changed my sig so feel free 
to give it another go.

Tip
check out my journal:  http://www.livejournal.com/users/tipgardner
check out my fan fiction:  http://www.schnoogle.com




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Mar 26 14:15:26 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 14:15:26 -0000
Subject: The immensely complex Homorphus Charm
In-Reply-To: <c41cc8+n59m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c41dtu+3718@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94036

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "davewitley" 
<dfrankiswork at n...> wrote:

> Of course, if Voldemort turns out to have a tame werewolf that 
he  can use to frame Lupin, then Homorphus may become 
relevant.
>

Or if Lupin himself is Voldemort's tame werewolf...and to keep 
this from being a one-liner, it's possible that homorphus only 
restores the human shape, as the wolfsbane potion only allows 
the werewolf to keep his human mind. 

Pippin




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Fri Mar 26 14:27:04 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 14:27:04 -0000
Subject: If DD knows, then why...? [was: Snape, trying very hard not to smile?]
In-Reply-To: <c40eot+rbf2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c41ejo+8o51@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94037

Potioncat wondered:
> Why do you think DD knew Tom Riddle opened the Chamber?  I'm 
> sure he knew Hagrid didn't but what did he know for certain? 
> Perhaps he tried to talk to Myrtle, but didn't learn anything. 

SUSAN:
> Yes, I think these are good questions as well. Is there something 
> in canon which makes people *sure* DD knew Tom opened the Chamber 
> and what was within it, or is it the "all-knowing DD" assumption?  

Carol:
> Dumbledore may have suspected that Tom had opened the Chamber, but
> surely he would have testified against him at Hagrid's expulsion
> hearing if he had conclusive evidence. Instead, Hagrid's wand was
> broken and he was expelled. <snip>
> I think Dumbledore suspected that Tom had
> opened the Chamber and may even have suspected that it contained a
> basilisk but could prove nothing and so he did nothing. 
> Well, I thought I knew where I was going on this post, but now I've
> succeeded in confusing myself. At any rate, I started out thinking
> that DD didn't know that Tom Riddle had opened the Chamber. Now I'm
> leaning the other way--he either knewor strongly suspected but had 
> no proof.
> Coming to my rescue, SSS?

Sue: 
> I'll help Carol! (At least I will try.)  I didn't see any 
> reluctance in Myrtle about sharing her experience, in fact when 
> Harry asked, "Myrtle's whole aspect changed at once.  She looked as 
> though she had never been asked such a flattering question."  CoS 
> US pb 299.  If DD had bothered to ask, she would have been more 
> than willing to share.  

SUSAN AGAIN:
Hmmmm....  Things get curiouser & curiouser, then, don't they?  With 
JKR's fondness for "as though" and "as if" statements being clues, I 
suspect that this DOES mean Myrtle was never asked before.  Why the 
dickens didn't DD ask her anything?!?  Surely he couldn't be unaware 
of her ghost's presence at Hogwarts??

Sue:
> I tend to think that, as you [Carol] said, there was no way for DD 
> to prove what he believed.  There was probably nothing he could do 
> about the Chamber either.  Only a Parselmouth can open it, he just 
> had to wait and hope another one didn't come along.  <snip>
> Once it was open, all he could do was sit and wait.  Harry was the 
> only one who could do anything about it anyway.  I do wonder why DD 
> didn't just head down there with Harry but as others have already 
> said, that would have made a very short book.  Maybe only a 
> Parselmouth could destroy the Basilisk (or maybe only an ancestor 
> or heir could)...

SUSAN AGAIN:
Well, two issues I see here.  One is that idea that DD could've done 
nothing, since he's not a parselmouth.  I believe you're right that 
DD could not have OPENED the Chamber, but I'm not so sure that once 
it **was** opened he couldn't have done anything.  Surely Snape 
reported to DD the news about Harry after the dueling episode?  Once 
DD knew Harry was a parselmouth, he could have accompanied Harry or 
had Harry open the Chamber and gone on himself.  Of course, this is 
*assuming* DD knew where the entrance was...and perhaps he did NOT?  
[If he did, he'd have likely found Myrtle, so may he really did not 
know?]  And even if DD had said straight out to Harry, "Listen, young 
man, if you ever FIND that entrance, you'd better come & get me or 
Minerva or Severus!" what are the odds that Harry would listen to 
that?  [See, Kneasy?  I can play this game, too!]

The other issue ties into this, I think.  It's that same old issue of 
whether DD really doesn't know things/really can't help...or whether 
he WANTS Harry to set off on these tasks without him.  In this case 
DD had been removed from Hogwarts, so he really wasn't around, but I 
think he believes Harry needs these "opportunities" to encounter 
Voldy and these tests of his courage & will.  

Don't get me wrong, I don't think DD is *ALL*-knowing or *ALL*-
controlling, but because he does know about the prophecy and believes 
Harry will need to be the one to eliminate Voldy, I think he does 
allow these dangerous scenarios to play out, hoping Harry will learn 
lessons & skills and will gain confidence ["only a true Gryffindor", 
for instance].

Sorry, Carol, didn't do any rescuing, did I?

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Fri Mar 26 14:38:57 2004
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 14:38:57 -0000
Subject: The immensely complex Homorphus Charm
In-Reply-To: <c41dtu+3718@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c41fa1+6ubk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94038

David wrote:

> > Of course, if Voldemort turns out to have a tame werewolf that 
> he  can use to frame Lupin, then Homorphus may become 
> relevant.

Pippin, in her gadfly animagus form, wrote:

> Or if Lupin himself is Voldemort's tame werewolf...and to keep 
> this from being a one-liner, it's possible that homorphus only 
> restores the human shape, as the wolfsbane potion only allows 
> the werewolf to keep his human mind. 

I did think of that (ESE!Lupin), but considered it less plausible in 
this context because of the element of surprise: the Homorphus Charm 
is performed, and... voila! it's the werewolf we always knew.

For Homorphus to be an effective plot device, I felt it requires 
that the obvious werewolf be not the one unmasked - if ESE!Lupin is 
acting in his wolf form, Homorphus only comes in if it has already 
been established that another werewolf is around and acting 
suspiciously in other ways - perhaps the one from St Mungo's?

But doubtless there are other twists I haven't thought of, involving 
Polyjuice, Imperius, and Apparition combined with Homorphus.  Could 
Lupin take Polyjuice and then transform and allow himself (under 
Wolfsbane) to be Homorphus-ed back into the form of the Polyjuicee?

Interesting if the effect of Homorphus is permanent mental damage as 
the price of permanent (or even temporary) physical restoration - 
that would put it alongside the Dementor's Kiss in the wizarding 
penal panoply.

David




From nkafkafi at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 26 14:41:40 2004
From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 14:41:40 -0000
Subject: Fields of Magic (was Re: Potions Master Question)
In-Reply-To: <c40egh+2kl3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c41ff4+fem3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94039

Carol:
I'm not so sure. As I stated in a different thread, the other
teachers, including the other heads of houses and acting headmistress
McGonagall, who is twice Snape's age, followed Snape's lead in getting
Gilderoy Lockhart out of the staffroom to "put up or shut up," as we
say in the U.S.--either act on his boasts and save Ginny or get out of
Hogwarts. ("Just the man. The very man," ff., CoS Am. ed. 294). Also
McGonagall says something about not being able to look Severus Snape
in the eye for weeks the last time Slytherin won the Quidditch cup. So
it sounds to me as if, despite his age, he's a respected college--in
marked contrast to Gilderoy Lockhart or Dolores Umbridge. And he's one
of only four heads of houses, again despite his age.

Also it's possible that Potioncat and others are thinking of Snape's
position as Dumbledore's righthand man--always present to help him in
a crisis, most notably in the later books, GoF and OoP (where he
contacts DD and works with him even though DD is not at Hogwarts). I'd
call him DD's trusted lieutenant. And "prowling" the halls is part of
Snape's role as the rule enforcer. Somehow, I can't see Flitwick or
Sprout being quite as effective.

Carol, who agrees that Snape is young, talented, ambitious and needs
to mellow down but doesn't think the other teachers look down on him
for these qualities

Neri:
OK, I'm not going to get into an argument with all the Snape's fans 
without any specific canon to back me up. But regarding the status of 
Potions, what do you think are the chances that a man in his early 
twenties, without any previous teaching experience as far as we know, 
would be hired to teach one of the two most prestigious fields in 
Hogwarts? Talented as he may be.

I already know what you are going to answer. Quirrell also seemed to 
be pretty young and he got the DADA position. But the DADA position 
is really not an example for anything. We don't know what's going on 
with it, but whatever it is, it is probably not natural.

Neri






From vmonte at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 26 14:50:14 2004
From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 14:50:14 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore's bad descisions?
In-Reply-To: <c41115+5uk4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c41fv6+6ccg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94040

Catherine Mck wrote: 
Once Sirius realises that Hagrid is taking HArry, he has lost 
everything; the Potters, James and Lily, Peter, probably even Lupin; 
he's got nothing left to do but go after Peter. The bike will help 
get Harry to safety, but Sirius is past caring about himself.


vmonte responds:

I agree. This is why Sirius never attempted to break out of prison. 
He could have changed into a dog anytime and walked out, but he 
didn't.  

He didn't start caring again until he saw the Weasley newspaper 
article -- or rather Wormtail on Ron's shoulder.  


vmonte
 




From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 26 14:51:00 2004
From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 14:51:00 -0000
Subject: The immensely complex Homorphus Charm
In-Reply-To: <c41cc8+n59m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c41g0k+bbsn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94041

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "davewitley" 
<dfrankiswork at n...> wrote:

> There are other possibilities.  It may well be that the Homorphus 
> Charm exists as described by Lockhart and is well-known to wizards 
> (like Animagus or Secret-Keeping), but is of no use to Lupin.

If that were the case, I would have assumed that *someone* would 
have said, WRT Lupin: "Hey, what about the immensely complex 
Homorphus charm?" "Nahh. It's no use, really."

> It 
> would suit Lockhart's publicity-seeking to claim credit for a 
known 
> difficult spell: to claim credit for curing a hitherto incurable 
> condition might result in too much eager attention from St Mungo's 
> and a subsequent exposure that memory charms alone could not 
redress.

I'm on the fence here. I think Lockhart the type that would make 
such a rash claim (false claims being 2nd nature to him) without 
thinking of the consequences. After all, he did try to mend HP's 
broken arm and when that backfired and HP's arm was left boneless, 
he said (I paraphrase) "Ah. Well. That can sometimes happen." And 
there was some grumbling from Madam Pomfrey but nothing else befell 
him.
 
> What Lockhart describes is the forcible transformation of a 
werewolf 
> from wolf form into human form, which may well not be a cure for 
> lycanthropy.

Correct. It is entirely possible the werewolf could have remained 
wolf-brained and human-bodied. I don't know--nor is canon any help 
either way--which is which.

>  Presumably the issue for the villagers of Wagga Wagga 
> was that they did not know which of their number was the werewolf.
> What the wizard with the hare lip (or whoever it was) did was to 
> unmask the person.  What followed may have been incarceration, 
> expulsion, or lynching, any of which might have 'solved' the 
problem 
> from the villagers' point of view.

Well, GL mentions the glory of the tale as coming from the 
villagers, who were relieved to be free of their monthly terror, not 
from the werewolf who was relieved from the distress of That Time Of 
The (Lunar) Month.

> If the person survived, quite 
> probably they transformed to wolf form as normal at the next full 
> moon - or even ten minutes after the Charm was performed.

I don't know why that would be. Mind you, I'm not saying it is NOT 
true, but I don't think that "probably" is the adverb of choice. GL 
did say the villagers, etc. from their monthly terror, which implies 
(w. GL it seems everything must be taken with a pound of salt) the 
problem--whatever the solution may have been: Homorphus, 
incarceration, whatever--was non-recurring.
 
> Of course, if Voldemort turns out to have a tame werewolf that he 
> can use to frame Lupin, then Homorphus may become relevant.

I think it might become relevant without that! :-)

-Joe in SoFla




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Fri Mar 26 15:04:10 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 15:04:10 -0000
Subject: Snape outing Harry as Parselmouth (was Re: If DD knows, then why..?)
In-Reply-To: <c40ata+avp5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c41gpa+4kdr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94042

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vaseemf" <vaseemf at y...> wrote:
> As for the 2nd year serpensortia thing, I seem to agree with you. 
> It is akin to conjuring, something that 5th years haven't reached. 
> It was also a live animal (a vertebrate no less). I think it may 
> have been a slight flint, because I doubt Malfoy is that skilled, 
> esspecially when it doesnt seem as though he had practiced the 
> spell thoroughly before he used it.

Susan:
Oh, I'm not so sure he'd never practiced that spell before. ;-)  
Remember how comfy Draco was on a broom?  I suspect that he & Daddy 
spent a good bit of time in Draco's pre-Hogwarts life working on all 
sorts of magic--especially dark spells.  If Snape really did whisper 
the serpensortia suggestion to Draco, perhaps he did so because he 
knew it was the kind of thing Lucius was likely to have taught dear 
Draco.

Siriusly Snapey Susan






From thirdgenesis at nexusanime.com  Fri Mar 26 10:01:27 2004
From: thirdgenesis at nexusanime.com (JMB)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 04:01:27 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape outing Harry as Parselmouth (was Re: If DD knows, then why..?)
In-Reply-To: <c40ata+avp5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <1Z96ZTOECLHQP4WKLPM2A94351E.4063ff77@hppav>

No: HPFGUIDX 94043


S. Mehmood:
>Well.. as for Draco earning his grades in Potions, I tend to 
>disagree. If Snape does not want former DEs to know that he has 
>switched sides, he must still act like he is a DE. It seems as 
>though the DEs stuck together after Voldemorts fall (Malfoy and 
>McNair seemed pretty close, same with Malfoy Crabbe and Goyle). 
>Giving Draco bad grades would have 
>looked pretty suspicious. 



Good point, but looking at the other side of it, doing just as you suggest could 
tip off the "good guys" that there's a more personal relationship involved 
between Snape and these students, and very well could jeopardize his job.  While 
you could very well be correct, there's also the possibility the DE would 
recognize that doing this very thing might point out their connection to Snape.

(If this has been mentioned already, my apologies.  I'm still trying to absorb 
everything that has been said in this topic :)



S. Mehmood:
>As for the 2nd year serpensortia thing, I seem to agree with you. It 
>is akin to conjuring, something that 5th years haven't reached. It 
>was also a live animal (a vertebrate no less). I think it may have 
>been a slight flint, because I doubt Malfoy is that skilled, 
>esspecially when it doesnt seem as though he had practiced the spell 
>thoroughly before he used it.


Of course, there's no telling what his father might have taught him.  Maybe 
giving him advanced lessons to prepare his boy for a future life as a DE?


                  --Jacob "Dark Claw/DC" Bond--
                        --Blink's Back!--

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"Barkeep! A Fuzzy Navel for me, and the girliest drink in the house for her!" 
"Two Fuzzy Navels, coming up!"
--Bender, Futurama







From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Fri Mar 26 15:07:54 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 15:07:54 -0000
Subject: Lets ask the kids (was getting anything right)
In-Reply-To: <c40rkp+32ie@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c41h0a+fg78@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94044

 Carolyn:
> Ok, as we have to admit that 11000+ adults havn't quite figured it 
> out yet, lets take a new and cunning route! Calling all you 
> parents, teachers, aunties, uncles, whatever, out there: let's hear 
> the best of the kids' take on the series/plot, and see if they have 
> spotted something that we haven't.


Susan [chortling, because many of you know how I feel about Snape, 
especially Rickman!Snape]:

The first thing which came to my mind was my 7-year-old daughter's 
comment last night.  We were watching the new PoA trailer and I 
(having watched it a mere 30 or so times before this) was 
saying "Turn to page 394" along w/ Rickman!Snape.  I laughed and 
said, "Isn't that great?"  Kristen looked at me like I was nuts and 
said, "Snape's MEAN."

Siriusly Snapey Susan...who knows on one level her daughter is 
correct but who hopes on the level that *matters* that her daughter 
is wrong.






From pegoheart144 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 26 14:05:41 2004
From: pegoheart144 at yahoo.com (Peggy Gross)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 06:05:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape outing Harry as Parselmouth (was Re: If DD knows, then why..?)
In-Reply-To: <c3vk56+o94h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040326140541.61247.qmail@web10406.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94045


> Potioncat:
> This is a good question.  While I am no fan of
> Draco's, he appears 
> to be a very competent young wizard. Some think that
> Snape "gives" 
> him good marks, but I tend to think he earns them. 
> What Snape does 
> is to ignore his misbehavior.
> Potioncat  
> 
> 
I do think that Draco did seem to be fairly advanced
in SS when he put the leg-locker curse on Neville. I
wouldn't be surprised if Lucius hadn't been giving
Draco advanced lessons in some areas. Maybe Snape is
aware of that and just suggest a spell Draco had
already mastered.

Sirius said in GoF that Snape came to Hogwarts knowing
alot of curses that most seventh years students don't.
Perhaps Draco is another student who had some tricks
up his sleeve before he started at school.

Pegoheart 




From happybean98 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 26 14:21:43 2004
From: happybean98 at yahoo.com (happybean98)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 14:21:43 -0000
Subject: Prophecy Problems (WAS: why are prophecies stored in glass orbs??)
In-Reply-To: <c412sh+va65@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c41e9n+3o1d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94046




Kashelkar wrote:

> > Why do MoM people save the prophecies in glass orbs??  Is not 
there 
> > any other method of saving the thousands of prophecies in a 
better, 
> > safer and more secure way (consuming less space, maybe)?  

Kathleen:

I've wondered about this too. My guess is that having them shelved 
and labeled, similar to books in a library, dignifies the prophecies 
as being worthy of study. It also conveys the number of prophecies 
that exist in the WW, (a lot), and shows us that the MoM takes them 
seriously.

Practically speaking, it does seem silly to have a record that can 
only be used one time, and for it to be so fragile.  I think that 
because JKR made a prophecy the axis of the entire plot,  she had to 
solve the problems she encountered by giving prophecies a lot of 
extra rules and unusual properties.

The rule that they can only be touched by the people concerned is 
handy because it now requires some trial and error (rising action) on 
the part of Voldemort to figure that out. The fact that they are so 
fragile adds the element of suspense when Harry almost drops it 
several times. And then when it finally does shatter, there's the 
suspense that the all important 'weapon' is now useless.

My biggest problem about the prophecy is this:

If the motive of the Order of the Phoenix was to keep the record of 
the prophecy away from Voldemort, and Dumbledore already knew what it 
said, why didn't the Order of the Pheonix just destroy it? Instead of 
risking their lives protecting it, why didn't they just destroy it 
the same way Harry and company smashed all the other prophecies on 
that row?

Kathleen 






From willsonkmom at msn.com  Fri Mar 26 15:29:08 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 15:29:08 -0000
Subject: Lets ask the kids (was getting anything right)
In-Reply-To: <c41h0a+fg78@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c41i84+8no2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94047

x
> 
> 
> Susan [chortling, because many of you know how I feel about Snape, 
> especially Rickman!Snape]:
> 
> The first thing which came to my mind was my 7-year-old daughter's 
> comment last night.  We were watching the new PoA trailer and I 
> (having watched it a mere 30 or so times before this) was 
> saying "Turn to page 394" along w/ Rickman!Snape.  I laughed and 
> said, "Isn't that great?"  Kristen looked at me like I was nuts and 
> said, "Snape's MEAN."
> 
> Siriusly Snapey Susan...who knows on one level her daughter is 
> correct but who hopes on the level that *matters* that her daughter 
> is wrong.

Potioncat:
Dito for for the signature comment.
My 14 year old daughter watches horror movies that I won't even let 
her tell me the plot of because they would give me nightmares.  She 
says the scariest scene she has ever seen in any movie is the scene 
in SS/PS where Snape quietly walks up on the trio and says "Good 
afternoon."

The way this fits into canon is that Snape is very very frightening 
to children.  which is why I think JKR is surprised that he has so 
many fans.  It is supposed to be a big surprise when he turns out to 
be the good guy.
Potioncat




From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Fri Mar 26 15:32:57 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 15:32:57 -0000
Subject: Horse Feathers
In-Reply-To: <c401n8+kn0i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c41if9+hssm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94048

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67 at y...> wrote:
> 
> Quick question: What do you think Ollivander is measuring if he isn't
> "taking the measure" of the students to see what kind of wand would
> suit them? Why have the magic tape measure at all if it serves no purpose?
> 

Quick answer: There's no indication that it measures anything except
lengths. It seems compulsive about it too. It carries on measuring even
when Ollivander has enough. And I  really can't see how shoulder to
finger, wrist to elbow, shoulder to floor etc evaluates any magical
parameters at all. The need for a method of matching a wand-buyer 
to a wand by means of a magical device seems to be purely fan-driven.
Ollivander gives no hint that he uses one.

The measuring is possibly a JKR joke - equivalent to us buying custom-
made sporting equipment. Pop into Purdeys the Gunsmiths in St James
and order a shotgun (if you've got a few thousands to spare). You won't
believe the number of measurements they take. And they keep them on
file, together with details of physical changes, alterations necessary to
make sure that the gun fits the new physical profile, the lot. Ollivander
might be a parody of just this sort of thing.

Kneasy






From jennalei2003 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 26 15:29:04 2004
From: jennalei2003 at yahoo.com (electrogirl)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 15:29:04 -0000
Subject: Headless Podmore was: Has anyone noticed this?
In-Reply-To: <c3vagh+6jdm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c41i80+ad4e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94049

<snippy snip snip>

  >Jenjar said:
> Ok. So, if Podmore is in Azkaban, and alive, does Patrick know or 
> care?  Could he visit Azkaban?  Will Sturgis' name be cleared 
now?  
> Not sure I can see real significance yet in Patrick Podmore's 
> existence but I'm convinced it isn't just a coincidence.  Maybe 
> someone else who's better at this than me has some ideas?


now Jen (electrogirl):

While I'm certainly not claiming to be "one who's better at this" 
than anyone....I am sooooo glad that I'm not the only who's certain 
that there ARE NO coincidences when it comes to JKR's naming of her 
characters.  The connection?  Foreshadowing? Will Sturgis end up 
headless?  or  Will the Headless Huntsmen break him out of Azkaban?  
Of course, with the Dementors gone, that might not be as difficult a 
task as it was when Sirius escaped.  

Another thought--  How long will it take L. Malfoy et al to break 
out?  1 month?  I don't see them staying put for long, and then look 
out.

Jen (who secretly hopes Snape never turns "nice)






From happybean98 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 26 15:33:04 2004
From: happybean98 at yahoo.com (happybean98)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 15:33:04 -0000
Subject: What happens to victim's body after the Dementor's kiss?
Message-ID: <c41ifg+a3ob@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94050

This may seem like a trivial question, but I feel it may have some 
future significance. What exactly happens to the body of someone once 
they have been kissed by a Dementor?

I believe Crouch Jr. is the only character we know of who has 
actually received the Dementor's kiss, (correct me if I'm wrong), "He 
knew what the dementor must have done. It had administered it's fatal 
kiss to Barty Crouch. It had sucked his soul out through his mouth. 
He was worse than dead." GoF p. 703

What happens to him now? I  had just assumed he was now dead and his 
family buried him. However, when I went back to PoA, I wasn't so sure.

Harry says: "What - they kill? "Oh no," said Lupin. Much worse than 
that. You can exist without your soul, you know, as long as your 
brain and heart are still working. But you'll have no sense of self 
anymore, no memory,no... anything. There's no chance of recovery. 
You'll just exist. As an empty shell. And your soul is gone 
forever...lost." PoA p. 247

So, is Crouch Jr. now existing in a "souless" state somewhere? Even 
in OoP, Harry's description to Petunia is a little vague.

Petunia says : "His soul? They didn't take -he's still got his - " 
She seized Dudley by the shoulders and shook him, as though testing 
to see whether she could hear his soul rattling around inside 
him. "Of course they didn't get his soul, you'd know if they had," 
said Harry, exasperated. OoP P. 34 

The reason I'm wondering is because if the Dementors are now loyal to 
Voldemort, there will be more victims of the Dementor's Kiss. Can 
Voldemort still use the victims even if they haven't got souls? Do 
the victims become Dementors themselves? What do they look like?

Kathleen   





From pegoheart144 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 26 15:31:35 2004
From: pegoheart144 at yahoo.com (Peggy Gross)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 07:31:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] why are prophecies stored in glass orbs??
In-Reply-To: <c40rhl+ru6t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040326153135.94557.qmail@web10408.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94051

--- kashelkar <kashelkar at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Why do MoM people save the prophecies in glass
> orbs??  Is not there 
> any other method of saving the thousands of
> prophecies in a better, 
> safer and more secure way (consuming less space,
> maybe)?  Do we 
> always have to destroy a prophecy to listen to it?  
> What purpose is 
> served by saving the prophecies in fragile glass
> orbs, which only a 
> single person in the world can touch and which can
> only be listened 
> to after destroying it (ie. only one time use)??  
> 
> What happens to the prophecies, when the person who
> could ever touch 
> it, passes away??  What kind of a "Anti-touching"
> spell is put on 
> them which even the DEs can't nullify??  What could
> possibly be the 
> procedure for recording a prophecy which was
> announced in a corner of 
> the country by a Seer,(who could hardly remember
> anything spoken at 
> that moment) to an audience?? I.e., are the people
> listening to the 
> Seer expected to report to the MoM, so that a
> prophecy could be 
> created or what??
> 

> 
You just posed some interesting questions. I don't
think we've gotten enough background information on
that Hall of Prophecy (that's my term).

I've wondered about that too. Along with these. How
does the Ministry know when a prophecy is made? How
soon after does the orb get created. Is there a copy
of the prophecy that Harry heard in his third year
stored there? 

The glass orbs seem to be a very impractical way to
store those. They seem very fragile. Just think of all
those prophecies that were lost when Harry et al
smashed those shelves.

pegoheart 






From liliana at worldonline.nl  Fri Mar 26 15:46:36 2004
From: liliana at worldonline.nl (laylalast)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 15:46:36 -0000
Subject: Prophecy Problems (WAS: why are prophecies stored in glass orbs??)
In-Reply-To: <c41e9n+3o1d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c41j8s+cfml@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94052

<snips a lot>
> 
> Kathleen wrote:
> 
<snips some more> 
> 
> My biggest problem about the prophecy is this:
> 
> If the motive of the Order of the Phoenix was to keep the record of 
> the prophecy away from Voldemort, and Dumbledore already knew what 
it 
> said, why didn't the Order of the Pheonix just destroy it? Instead 
of 
> risking their lives protecting it, why didn't they just destroy it 
> the same way Harry and company smashed all the other prophecies on 
> that row?
> 

Lilian here:

IMO, the Order used the prophecy to lure LV from his hiding hole. The 
members did not so much as guard it, but were standing in the right 
place to raise the alarm when LV would try to enter the MoM. It was 
their one way to prove that LV was indeed back.
If they had just destroyed the prophecy, it is rather likely that LV 
would have learned, through hand-in-gloves-with-Fudge Lucius Malfoy, 
and then would have remained in his hiding hole. 

Of course, when LV did enter the MoM, it was in the shape of Nagini, 
and things went rather awry for the Order. I rather wonder what kind 
of story was cooked up for the MoM to explain the attack on mr. 
Weasley, more specifically the place where they found him.


Lilian, finally jumping back in after a too long absence!




From mad_maxime at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 26 15:53:02 2004
From: mad_maxime at hotmail.com (mad_maxime)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 15:53:02 -0000
Subject: Dumbledores lack of surprise + my point !
In-Reply-To: <c3vu94+10sph@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c41jku+esp0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94053

> > Inge wrote:
> > Dumbledore: "But she (Petunia) took you <snip> and in doing so,
> > she sealed the charm I placed upon you. Your mother's sacrifice
> > made the bond of blood the strongest shield I could give you."
> > Ok - so how DID Dumbledore know anything about Lily's sacrifice at
> > that time? Harry was a little more than a year old and the only
> > person to tell what had happened at his home that night. Not a
> > chance. Alas! Someone else must have been in the house to witness
> > what happened and told Dumbledore that Lily actually gave her life
> > for Harry.<snip>
 
> Carol responded:
> I'm not sure about this, but I think DD still doesn't know exactly
> how Harry survived (it couldn't be the self-sacrifice alone or
> dozens of other people could have been saved from AKs by similar
> sacrifices).
> <snip>

Max responds:
Someone could have been in the house and reported to Dumbledore, but I
think it's more likely that he was able to deduce for himself what
happened.

In CoS (p.317, US Edition):
[Riddle]- "So. Your mother died to save you. Yes, that's a powerful
counter-charm."

In GoF (p.652-653, US Edition):
[Voldemort] - "His mother left upon him the traces of her sacrifice. .
. This is old magic. I should have remembered it, I was foolish to
overlook it. . . but no matter. I can touch him now."

Voldemort might have been "foolish to overlook it", but I don't
believe Dumbledore would be. Just the fact that he used a blood charm
to protect Harry at the Dursleys, as an extension of Lily's
"sacrifice", leads me to believe he was fully aware of how Harry
survived the night.

Just look at it from Dumbledore's perspective.  They arrive at
Godric's Hollow to find Lily and James dead, Voldemort seemingly dead
(was there a body?), and Harry completely unscathed, save for a scar
on the forehead.

I believe Dumbledore knew all about the types of counter charms and
old magic that might explain a situation such as this. So knowing
Lily's skill at charms, I believe he could guess, just from looking at
the situation, that Lily had probably used Voldemort's ignorance of
such matters to her advantage.

Another theory, for which there is no canon evidence, is that Lily
informed Dumbledore *beforehand* of her plan to conjure the old magic
as a last ditch effort to save Harry. It seems completely reasonable
to expect that there would have been *some* conversation between
Dumbledore and the Potters before they went into hiding about the best
ways to protect Harry if Voldemort were ever to find his way to
Godric's Hollow. 

So Dumbledore knowing Lily's plans beforehand seems like a reasonable
possibility to me.




From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Fri Mar 26 16:07:07 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 16:07:07 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c415u9+dv9l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c41kfb+95me@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94054

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Berit Jakobsen" <belijako at o...> wrote:
> 
> So yes; I can see Snape being capable of 'loving' :-)
> 

Why on earth do you want him to be loving?
I think ole Snapey is great just the way he's appeared up  to now.
By far the most interesting character in the books, credible and
providing an absolutely superb role model on how to deal with
stroppy  kids. Wonderful!

I  strongly  suspect movie contamination in all this pining for
a softer more compassionate Snape: you're not seeing Snape as
written - you're seeing Alan Rickman. Fantasy time! Be honest.

The Snape I imagine has a pitted cadaverous face, two days worth
of stubble, nose hairs, yellowing teeth and halitosis. We  already
know he has a hooked nose and sallow skin. A pin-up he ain't.
And he has a personality to match. JKR in one interview hinted
that he might be redeemed, but he would never be nice; 'not nice
at all' are the words she's used to describe him -  and now you 
want him to be a fluffy bunny in disguise. Hearts and flowers?
More like acid and thistles for Snape. He enjoys being misanthropic.

Hands off our nasty, bullying, sarcastic, slimy, evil Potions Master
please. He's perfect the way he is.

Kneasy




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 26 16:31:07 2004
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 16:31:07 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c41kfb+95me@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c41lsb+5vt2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94055

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Berit Jakobsen" 
<belijako at o...> wrote:
> > 
> > So yes; I can see Snape being capable of 'loving' :-)
> > 
> 
> Why on earth do you want him to be loving?
> I think ole Snapey is great just the way he's appeared up  to now.
> By far the most interesting character in the books, credible and
> providing an absolutely superb role model on how to deal with
> stroppy  kids. Wonderful!
> 
> I  strongly  suspect movie contamination in all this pining for
> a softer more compassionate Snape: you're not seeing Snape as
> written - you're seeing Alan Rickman. Fantasy time! Be honest.
> 
> The Snape I imagine has a pitted cadaverous face, two days worth
> of stubble, nose hairs, yellowing teeth and halitosis. We  already
> know he has a hooked nose and sallow skin. A pin-up he ain't.
> And he has a personality to match. JKR in one interview hinted
> that he might be redeemed, but he would never be nice; 'not nice
> at all' are the words she's used to describe him -  and now you 
> want him to be a fluffy bunny in disguise. Hearts and flowers?
> More like acid and thistles for Snape. He enjoys being misanthropic.
> 
> Hands off our nasty, bullying, sarcastic, slimy, evil Potions Master
> please. He's perfect the way he is.
> 
> Kneasy


Hi, Kneasy! Usually I read your posts and admire your writing style, 
but never respond to them, because you and me are reading very 
different books and I don't see any discussion possible between us at 
all, because what you call black, I call white and vice versa.
 I guess you could be proud of yourself, because I finally took your 
bait. :o)

Yes, I want Snape to show that he can love, not just hate. That 's  a 
necessary condition for me to like the literary character. I prefer 
characters, who are capable of love. It does not mean that I want him 
to become "nice".

Kneasy, Please forgive me for writing couple sentences in responce to 
Anne post (I will write detailed answer in the evening, Anne)
I don't prefer happy characters at all. (Have you read "Crime and 
Punishment"? I Love Raskolnikov and he is so not happy character at 
all) I prefer characters who can express more than one emotion and 
with every book Snape becomes more and more one note character for 
me. He hates and hates and hates.

Yes, he is a mystery still and I want to know more about him, but 
complexity does not equal mystery at all. I used to think of Snape as 
most well-developed and complex character of the "potterverse" I 
don't anymore.


Alla





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Fri Mar 26 16:30:13 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 16:30:13 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c41kfb+95me@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c41lql+q2o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94056

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
 Kneasy wrote:
> Why on earth do you want him to be loving?
> I think ole Snapey is great just the way he's appeared up  to now.
> By far the most interesting character in the books, credible and
> providing an absolutely superb role model on how to deal with
> stroppy  kids. Wonderful!
> 


Potioncat:
Well, I don't agree with some parts of the post that I snipped, but I 
agree with the above, with an exception.

Have you ever seen the look on a kid's face when he sees a 
particularly strict and disliked teacher who happens to be out with 
his normal wife and normal kids?  It's a shocking thought that the 
person who makes this child's life miserable, can be normal parent to 
someone else?

Or haven't you had a co-worker or superior who is absolutely horrible 
at work, but has a loving family he goes home to at the end of the 
day?

Ok, maybe Snape's home life would't be entirely normal....But a 
within certain bounds of acceptability?


Potioncat 




From pt4ever at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 26 16:34:28 2004
From: pt4ever at yahoo.com (JoAnna)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 16:34:28 -0000
Subject: How Hagrid became gamekeeper  [was: If DD knows, then why...?]
In-Reply-To: <c40b4t+6m3g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c41m2k+e1ek@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94057

Carol said:
<<<(which begs the question of how a Transfiguration
teacher who was not yet headmaster could hire a thirteen-year-old
gamekeeper, and what happened to his predecessor, Ogg, but I won't go
there).>>>

JoAnna:

I'll go there!  :D

I'm guessing that Dumbledore was appointed Hagrid's legal guardian 
after Hagrid's father died in his [Hagrid's] second year, and that's 
how DD was able to persuade Dippit to keep Hagrid at Hogwarts (where 
DD lived) and *train* him as gamekeeper (a job Dumbledore knew 
Hagrid would excel at).  

Hagrid didn't *become* the new gamekeeper at 13 years old -- I'm 
guessing that he trained under Ogg, the former gamekeeper, for many 
years until Ogg either died or retired (perhaps Hagrid was still 
assistant gamekeeper at the time Mrs. Weasley attended Hogwarts, 
which is how she can reminisce about knowing Ogg in GoF).  

I remember that in PS/SS, after Harry has recovered Neville's 
Remembrall and is following McGonagall, thinking he's about to be 
expelled, he wonders if he could stay on and be Hagrid's assisstant, 
and pictures himself stumping around the grounds carrying Hagrid's 
bag as all his friends learned how to be wizards.  Likely this very 
scenario happened to Hagrid.

- JoAnna




From quigonginger at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 26 16:37:03 2004
From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 16:37:03 -0000
Subject: Prophecy Problems (WAS: why are prophecies stored in glass orbs??)
In-Reply-To: <c41j8s+cfml@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c41m7f+i1qc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94058

> Lilian here:
> 
> IMO, the Order used the prophecy to lure LV from his hiding hole. 
The 
> members did not so much as guard it, but were standing in the right 
> place to raise the alarm when LV would try to enter the MoM. It was 
> their one way to prove that LV was indeed back.
> If they had just destroyed the prophecy, it is rather likely that 
LV 
> would have learned, through hand-in-gloves-with-Fudge Lucius 
Malfoy, 
> and then would have remained in his hiding hole. 
> 
> Of course, when LV did enter the MoM, it was in the shape of 
Nagini, 
> and things went rather awry for the Order. I rather wonder what 
kind 
> of story was cooked up for the MoM to explain the attack on mr. 
> Weasley, more specifically the place where they found him.
> 
> 
> Lilian, finally jumping back in after a too long absence!

Ginger:
Glad you jumped back!  I think you are totally correct about the 
reason the Order didn't destroy the prophecy.  I would also like to 
echo those on the list who pointed out that as long as LV was on a 
wild goose chase trying to *get* the prophecy, he wasn't out doing 
other Eviloverlordish things.  In other words, they dangled a carrot 
and let him run in circles.

I don't think any explaination was necessary for Arthur's presence at 
the MoM that night.  Remember when DD sent Everard to raise the 
alarm?  He told him to be sure that Arthur was found "by the right 
people".  I would assume that this means that the Order has people in 
the Ministry who could get Arthur out of there, clean up the mess, 
and have no one else the wiser.

Dilys was sent on to St. Mungo's.  I'm sure she found the "right" 
people too.  Ones that would be trustworthy to tell the story to, or 
at least would ask no uncomfortable questions.

I wonder just how big the Order is, including supporters of DD, that 
is.

Ginger, who thinks Lockhart was blowing smoke on the whole Wagga 
Wagga incident, but has nothing intelligent to post on the matter.




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Fri Mar 26 16:52:27 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 16:52:27 -0000
Subject: Fields of Magic (was Re: Potions Master Question)
In-Reply-To: <c404ba+j1fs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c41n4b+9r2g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94059

snipping comements by several posters
> 
> Potioncat:
>  I will agree that if Potions is viewed as something "witches" 
perform
> that it would be held in less esteem than a magic that is
> traditionally for "wizards." (I've seen the respect for doctors
> decline as women entered the field.)
> 
> Neri again:
> Oops, I didn't mean to come out as the chauvinist pig here. 
>snip<
Potioncat:
Oops, I didn't mean for it look like that.  In fact as I posted it, I 
wondered if I would look like a sexist.  I was just comparing it to 
the idea that some associations do affect value. (Actually agreeing 
with a part of your post!) And I've seen  the 
general esteem of doctors drop as women moved into the field.  (I am 
sexist enough to think that women becoming doctors improved the 
profession, but that would be a different discussion group)



>Potioncat:
> But as far as status within the adult community goes: Currently the
> two teachers with the most status at Hogwarts are the 
Transfiguration
> teacher (deputy headmistress) and the Potions Master. 
 
> Neri again:
> I realize I'm getting into dangerous water now, but why do you 
think 
> Snape has more status as a teacher than Flitwick? x> DADA or 
Transfiguration jobs".   


Potioncat: I was afraid  I was getting into personalities (of 
characters)  here rather than positions.  I think Carol has addressed 
this in a later post so I will leave it. 


I guess given that this is our opinions and not anything fully 
supported by canon, we'll have to agree to disagree until we can find 
something else to argue about (erm, discuss)  :-) 

Potioncat
  





From steffy07 at aol.com  Fri Mar 26 16:53:06 2004
From: steffy07 at aol.com (steffy07)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 16:53:06 -0000
Subject: Potions Master Question
In-Reply-To: <c405ug+t7du@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c41n5i+pnno@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94060

Lets compare the subjects at Hogwarts to the subjects at a normal 
school (I'll take my typical "core" classes for example):

I took core classes of History, English, some type of Math and 
Science.  I also took electives and whatnot.  Right?  Okay, at 
Hogwarts there are Potions, History of Magic, DADA and 
Transfigurations, Herbology and for first years Flying, and 
then "elective like courses" in the their third years as I have 
always understood it, because Hermonie took Muggle Studies, while 
Harry and Ron did not.

So, I think all of the core classes are important in building a 
foundation of magic.  Just like in a "real" school, if you are going 
to become a Chemist, science would be more important to you,  Or if 
you are going to become an accountant, math might interest you, in 
Hogwarts, if you want to become a certain profession, a certain 
subject will interest you more, but all of them are equally 
important.  

As for one being harder than another, I don't think that is true.  
For example, one could aruge that Transfiguration is harder than 
DADA.  However, Hermonie seems to be best at Trans., and of all the 
subjects, has the most trouble with DADA.  Harry, however, has 
excellent skill in DADA, but has trouble with potions and is not as 
good as Hermonie in Transfigurations.  I think that every witch or 
wizard has certain skills, and that is what they excel in.  There 
are hard spells or potions in every branch of magic.

Sorry, I seem to have rambled a bit.  I also may have missed a 
couple of subjects here or there... 




From rolshan2000 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 26 16:47:34 2004
From: rolshan2000 at yahoo.com (Regina Olshan)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 08:47:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Ron's crush on Hermione (ship)
In-Reply-To: <1080292404.5269.40430.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040326164734.44646.qmail@web11306.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94061

Strong support for R/H in the new trailer for the POA
flick... 

To return to canon, would point out that the books are
"running out of time" to go to anything other than
R/H. For example H/Cho were built up for 4 books and
then torn down in one (giving Harry 2 books for
"someone else". 

R/H have had at least 2 books worth of build-up, so
there would need to be at least one book in which the
situation is somehow resolved (the two likeliest
resolutions that do NOT lead to R/H conclusion would
be romance followed by break up or Ron making a move
which Hermione rejects).  

That would leave only one book (the last one, one
already freighted with the final battle, resolution of
all mysteries, etc.) to include both the build up and
triumph of a subsequent romance (for example, H/H). 
This is possible (with JKR anything is) but seems very
unlikely. Further "stuffing" a full development of a
romance into one book may actually require too much
focus on teen romance in that book -- I agree with
whoever said that romance would always be a small
sideline in the books and not the main focus.

Regina (not a shipper but thinks R/H are a certainty
and H/G a likelyhood, although would consider H/L).

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html



From steffy07 at aol.com  Fri Mar 26 17:01:02 2004
From: steffy07 at aol.com (steffy07)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 17:01:02 -0000
Subject: Snape and the Order
In-Reply-To: <c406if+8aa9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c41nke+b11p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94062

This may have been discussed before, but I have a question...

In OOTP, if Snape is spying on LV for the Order (which I believe he 
is), and the Deatheaters know he works at Hogwarts, shouldn't he be 
expected to spy on Dumbley-Dore and Harry for LV?  Is he passing 
false information to LV?  If so, why hasn't he been discovered yet 
by the DE and LV?  Wouldn't you be suspicious if all the information 
a spy told you turned out to be false?

Just wondering everybody's opinion...

Steffy




From jdr0918 at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 26 17:19:16 2004
From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 17:19:16 -0000
Subject: Why does Ron have a crush on Hermione?
In-Reply-To: <c404mh+79u9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c41omk+bu1m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94063

<<<In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sienna291973" wrote:...I'm also 
wondering if someone could enlighten me as to what our policy is on 
the use of the HP movies in our analysis of canon (because I also 
have reservations of movie evidence being used to predict ships).>>>

The Sergeant Majorette says

In some cases, we know from interviews given by JKR, the screenwriter 
and some of the actors that she has given them guidance about things 
that are going to happen in future books (that might not get filmed).

The "non-hug" is one of those instances. JKR has made it pretty clear 
that Hermione and Ron are destined to be "high-school sweethearts". 
Of course, given her penchant for the plot twist and her relationship 
with the individual on whom Ron is based (they're still pals and act 
goofy around each other), I'd say Ron and Hermione will no longer be 
an "item" by the end of the series.

--JDR




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Fri Mar 26 17:29:59 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 17:29:59 -0000
Subject: Lets ask the kids (was getting anything right)
In-Reply-To: <c40v85+ijaf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c41pan+32gb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94064

Carolyn:
> > let's hear the best of the kids' take on the series/plot, and see 
> > if they have spotted something that we haven't.

Inge: 
> As for me - when it was translated into my language I read it out 
> loud to my 11-year old son. When we got to the fighting part in the 
> DOM - the first thing *he* said after hearing the incident between 
> Sirius and Bellatrix was: "She didn't do it. The shot came from 
> somewhere else!"

Susan:
Oh, no!!!  Pippin, did you see this?!?  Oh, say it ain't so!  I will 
NOT believe in ESE!Lupin!  Somebody come up w/ another theory for who 
else it could be...please?

Siriusly Snapey Susan






From jdr0918 at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 26 17:33:52 2004
From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 17:33:52 -0000
Subject: Wake up call (again)!!!
In-Reply-To: <c3vie5+clok@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c41pi0+87d2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94065

<<<In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pennstgrle" (who thinks 
Hermione acts far more like Prof. McGonagall than Molly, most of the 
time) wrote:
Sorry everyone! I don't know what I was reading, but it wasn't what 
JDR typed! I can see where you would draw a parallel with this!!! I 
don't know what I was thinking!...
But, now pondering what you really typed, does Hermione ever act 
bothered by Luna's interest (if you can call it that) in Ron?...>>>

The Sergeant Majorette (who had Hermione pegged for a McGonagall-in-
training from the get-go) says

Whew! Thought I was going to have to go into the wizardness 
protection program --again.

But the point is, Hermione does *not* act bothered by Luna's interest 
and she *should*. There's that aspect of Ron's maturation that 
Hermione isn't picking up on: he's over the veela thing now. He's 
beginning to get his hormones under control and see past surface 
beauty, not that Luna isn't pretty; as depicted, she *is*; and no man 
can resist a woman who adores him.

--JDR




From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 26 17:35:33 2004
From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 09:35:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The power LV knows not
In-Reply-To: <c41136+t6q0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040326173533.81003.qmail@web41803.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94066

Tip wrote:
Tip:
> I don't see real textual evidence for this.  Also, to reject 
> something, doesn't a person of LV's intelligence usually 
understand 
> it first?  What if it were useful to him?

 
My (melanie) reply:  Well I have a little bit of textual references for this granted I'm taking a big step by doing saying this.  I think that Dumbledore in particular showed some love to Tom Riddle, the vunerable and somewhat innocent boy that became Lord Voldemort.  
One scene in a particular shows this to me and it is in COS.  Forgive me for no quotes,  I am currently at work and I do not have my books with me at the time.  But during the pensieve scene Dumbledore asks Tom if there is anything at ALL that he wanted to talk about.  This is very similar to the way that Dumbledore talks to Harry and we know for a fact that Dumbledore loves Harry.  I personally believe that he also loved Tom and still loves the boy behind the dark lord.  
 
Perhaps this is why Lord Voldemort fears Dumbledore the most, it is not a strength or skill mechanism.  But in Tom's mind the one person that he has ever become the closest to loving was Albus Dumbledore.  
 
I'm not sure if this makes any sense at all but I'm trying my best.
 
~Melanie



---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.

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From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 26 17:43:18 2004
From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 09:43:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] married professors?
In-Reply-To: <c40gbh+kv5u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040326174318.6697.qmail@web41811.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94067


Peiroja wrote: I saw a question in the JKR interview (for the red-nose comic thing, 
I don't remember the name), where she was asked whether Hogwarts 
professors have spouses. JKR replied that, yes, some do, but she 
wouldn't/couldn't say more. Any thoughts on why we haven't seen them 
yet? (or even heard of them?) Does anyone think they will be 
important to the plot later on?
-peliroja

 

My (Mela) Reply:

 

Oh yes, I love this question thank you so much for asking it.  LOL Well, I have my own little theory that we have already met some professors who were married.  I personally believe we know of one, and that man is one the we know well and his name is Remus Lupin.  He isn't a professor now but you know.  

 

I believe that Remus' wife is Nymphodora Tonks, however, I believe that due to restrictions from Hogwarts (JKR said that the info was "confidential") that Tonks must keep her maiden name.  It could explain why Remus feels a bit odd calling her Tonks because he knows she isn't a Tonks anymore.  

 

It would also explain why Tonks was at Grimmauld Place a lot more than the other order members, minus Molly who was playing "mom" to Sirius and Lupin who was living there.  

And I just think the little cute interractions between Tonks and Remus are classic.  

Just a thought.  I would love to hear if everyone thinks I'm crazy or not!  

~Mela









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Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.

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From jdr0918 at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 26 17:49:07 2004
From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 17:49:07 -0000
Subject: getting anything right
In-Reply-To: <c411lh+rsqq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c41qej+10kp1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94068

<<<In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: ...maybe 
an up-surge in Fan Fiction...>>>

The Sergeant Majorette says

No way. The demise of Sirius broke a great many hearts among fanfic 
writers. If anything, a lot of works-in-progress were abandoned. I 
predict that there will be an upsurge just before the last book comes 
out and everybody's faves get killed off.

--JDR




From free_lunch_club at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 26 17:53:17 2004
From: free_lunch_club at hotmail.com (thetruthisoutthere_13)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 17:53:17 -0000
Subject: married professors?
In-Reply-To: <20040326174318.6697.qmail@web41811.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c41qmd+n3fv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94069

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com

 Peiroja wrote: I saw a question in the JKR interview (for the red-
nose comic thing, 
> I don't remember the name), where she was asked whether Hogwarts 
> professors have spouses. JKR replied that, yes, some do, but she 
> wouldn't/couldn't say more. Any thoughts on why we haven't seen 
them 
> yet? (or even heard of them?) Does anyone think they will be 
> important to the plot later on?
> -peliroja

One thing I've thought of: if Hogwarts professors are married, and 
unless they have homemaker spouses, than they probably work 
*outside* of Hogwarts. Which means they have reliable transportation 
in and out of Hogwarts, which could be exploited by Voldemort and 
the DE's. This also means there could be additional firepower (i.e. 
adult wizards) if Hogwarts is attacked. 

So: my prediction/theory is that the spouses of professors will 
become important when Voldemort attacks Hogwarts in either book 6 or 
7. This would pull a number of threads together--Dobby, the 
centaurs, the unheard of spouses, the chamber of secrets, etc. And I 
wonder what magical protection Hogwarts might have to fight back as 
well.

-kg
just got a Hogwarts/Rose Red image




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Fri Mar 26 17:53:47 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 17:53:47 -0000
Subject: Potions Master Question/ Viridis?
In-Reply-To: <20040324110209.B7BCC2A648D@front.interia.pl>
Message-ID: <c41qnb+t2rj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94070

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, bufo_viridis at i... wrote:>
Viridis wrote:
 [Dumbledore] is famous for defeating the dark wizard Grindelwald in 
1945, for discovering the twelve uses of dragon's blood, and for his 
work on alchemy with his friend Nicolas Flamel. (HP Lexicon quoting 
Chocolate Frog Card)
> 
> Ergo ? Dumble himself must be of the top Potions Masters of WW.  I 
find it hard to believe he was just a clerk for Flamel. We don?t 
know what he was doing for better part of his life, so he could 
easily enjoy *beauty of the softly simmering cauldron with its 
shimmering fumes, the delicate power of liquids that creep through 
human veins, bewitching the mind, ensnaring the senses*.
> 
> So why he was teaching transfiguration? He is powerful enough to 
be equally good in both fields. But still... 
> 


Potioncat:
This one took on a life of its own!  I up-treaded back to see what 
started it all. And here I am.  

Viridis, was your question ever answered?
 
Potioncat (who thinks that with the above idea of DD's potion making 
skills, he and Snape must be cooking up somehting!) 






From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Fri Mar 26 18:00:48 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 18:00:48 -0000
Subject: Fields of Magic (was Re: Potions Master Question)
In-Reply-To: <c41ff4+fem3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c41r4g+u22h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94071

Neri:
> OK, I'm not going to get into an argument with all the Snape's fans 
> without any specific canon to back me up. But regarding the status 
> of Potions, what do you think are the chances that a man in his 
> early twenties, without any previous teaching experience as far as 
> we know, would be hired to teach one of the two most prestigious 
> fields in Hogwarts? Talented as he may be.
> 
> I already know what you are going to answer. Quirrell also seemed 
> to be pretty young and he got the DADA position. But the DADA 
> position is really not an example for anything. We don't know 
> what's going on with it, but whatever it is, it is probably not 
> natural.

Susan:
You may have meant Carol when you said you knew what answer would be 
given, but I can tell you Quirrell would NOT have been my answer to 
this.  I think you've got a valid point that it's difficult to know 
much about the prestige associated w/ the DADA position.  (My gut 
feeling is it's way up there but that **right now** in Hogwarts' 
history, it's seen as jinxed & so has slipped way down the list.)

Anyway, I'd like to make two points.  First, I think with **DD** as 
Headmaster, it **is** likely that he would hire someone young, with 
potentially little/no teaching experience (and, I'd add, some social 
skill problems!) but lots of talent--that is, Severus Snape--to teach 
Potions.  AND I would go so far as to say he would do that even if 
Potions were one of the prestigious positions, as I believe that it 
is.  [Snape's infamous speech about the science & art of potions in 
Harry's 1st year, to me, shows how much he appreciates & respects & 
(dare I say?) adores potion making].  

Second, I think this assigning prestige rankings to fields of magic 
at Hogwarts is a difficult business, just as I think you'd get the 
same arguments about courses of study in RW schools & universities.  
It's a lot of OPINION, in other words.  If people want to argue that 
one has more prestige than another, I think it needs to be done 
without TOO much reference to the wizards & witches currently in 
those teaching positions *and* by looking across a period of time, 
not just the present. I know my first reaction would have been to say 
either:  a) Transfiguration & Potions; or b) DADA & Potions...but 
then I have to be honest and say that I *likely* chose a) because we 
see so much of McGonagall & Snape as readers and b) because we're in 
a time when Voldy is back and DADA is essential for survival in the 
WW.  [When Harry was 5, say, and Voldy was out of the picture, I'll 
bet DADA wouldn't have come to my mind.]

Anyway, while this is an interesting topic, I find it one which would 
be very, very difficult to reach consensus on.

Siriusly Snapey Susan







From jdr0918 at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 26 18:18:38 2004
From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 18:18:38 -0000
Subject: Potions Master Question/ Viridis?
In-Reply-To: <c41qnb+t2rj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c41s5u+s45c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94072

<<<In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote:
> Viridis wrote:
...Dumble himself must be of the top Potions Masters of WW... So why 
he was teaching transfiguration? He is powerful enough to be equally 
good in both fields. But still...< 
Viridis, was your question ever answered?>>>

The Sergeant Majorette says

DD teaches transfiguration because he's good at teaching. Teaching 
Potions is a piece of cake. You put the recipe on the board and then 
walk around messing with their little heads while they brew. A blown 
cauldron or three, some boils, some toxic vapor --eh. 

Transfiguration requires a more delicate touch. Can you imagine, for 
example, Snape teaching transfiguration?

Oh, the humanity!

--JDR




From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 26 18:19:19 2004
From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 18:19:19 -0000
Subject: Headless Podmore was: Has anyone noticed this?
In-Reply-To: <c41i80+ad4e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c41s77+4qre@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94073

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "electrogirl" 
<jennalei2003 at y...> wrote:

> I am sooooo glad that I'm not the only who's certain 
> that there ARE NO coincidences when it comes to JKR's naming of her 
> characters.

I'll gop one further and say there are NO coincidences when it comes 
to any JKRness.

-Joe in SoFla




From CindyJ2 at cox.net  Fri Mar 26 17:44:14 2004
From: CindyJ2 at cox.net (Cindy Jenkins)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 11:44:14 -0600
Subject: Snape outing Harry as Parselmouth (was Re: If DD knows, then why..?)
References: <c40ata+avp5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <006a01c41359$f4b7a670$536a6744@DEAN>

No: HPFGUIDX 94074


  Eustace_Scrubb happened to have the book at hand:
  > >>snipping canon quote about duel<
  >  
  > > What I want to know is how many 2nd years can do a competent
  > > serpensortia?

Well, I agree with the others that Draco could probably do a lot of magic before he entered Hogwarts, but maybe he has conjured a serpent before.  After all, he is in Slytherin.  Perhaps it's a house trick?  Maybe his father was a Slytherin alum, and taught him?  It seemed to me that he had at least heard of it before, as he didn't question Snape or ask for further directions.  He just nodded and did it.  Perhaps it isn't even difficult; just a bit obscure.

Cindy 




From CindyJ2 at cox.net  Fri Mar 26 17:48:30 2004
From: CindyJ2 at cox.net (Cindy Jenkins)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 11:48:30 -0600
Subject: The immensely complex Homorphus Charm
References: <c41cc8+n59m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <007001c4135a$8cd489a0$536a6744@DEAN>

No: HPFGUIDX 94075

Dave wrote:

> What Lockhart describes is the forcible transformation 
> of a werewolf from wolf form into human form, which may 
> well not be a cure for lycanthropy.  

True...  When I first read it, though, I assumed it *did* cure lycanthropy.  
It seems that the charm must be performed on a live werewolf, which is 
dangerous in and of itself.  To hold down a werewolf *and* complete the charm 
would be incredibly difficult.

My guess is that the wolfsbane potion combined with the homorphus charm will 
be what cures Lupin.

Cindy




From ryan at phaedo.com  Fri Mar 26 18:22:37 2004
From: ryan at phaedo.com (S. Ryan Quick)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 10:22:37 -0800
Subject: Why are prophecies stored in glass orbs??
Message-ID: <BC89B4ED.13F15%ryan@phaedo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94076

pegoheart wrote:
>The glass orbs seem to be a very impractical way to
>store those. They seem very fragile. Just think of all
>those prophecies that were lost when Harry et al
>smashed those shelves.

Hmmm, I'd say that glass orbs make some sense:  they symbolize not only the
"crystal orb" where prophecies (at least for Sybil anyway) originate, but at
the same time the transparency and fragility point to just how fluid and
fragile the very concept of prophecy, especially when it pertains to a
particular individual or individuals, actually is.  As for the ones which
were lost, I think we need to pay as much attention as possible to what
fragments we did hear, JKR has always got ways of "not delivering"
information ... I can?t help thinking the smashed and "lost" prophecies were
meant for us "not to hear" ...

alastor_m00dy




From magarama11 at aol.com  Fri Mar 26 18:19:17 2004
From: magarama11 at aol.com (peliroja1118)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 18:19:17 -0000
Subject: Wake up call (again)!!!
In-Reply-To: <c41pi0+87d2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c41s75+fipm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94077

The Sergeant Majorette wrote:
> But the point is, Hermione does *not* act bothered by 
> Luna's interest and she *should*. There's that aspect 
> of Ron's maturation that Hermione isn't picking up on: 
> he's over the veela thing now. He's beginning to get 
> his hormones under control and see past surface beauty, 
> not that Luna isn't pretty; as depicted, she *is*; and 
> no man can resist a woman who adores him.

I really don't think that Luna is interested in Ron. If we're looking 
at textual support, she gives more attention/talks more to Harry than 
Ron, and I think she regards everyone basically with the same odd 
perspective. Hermione I think only gets frustrated with her because 
Luna believes in things that aren't factual, and Luna seems so aloof, 
while Hermione is constantly on the ball, serious and acurately 
informed. I think her lack of patience with Luna can be seen to be 
similar to her frustration/impatience with Divination -- another 
imperfect/unexact area filled with supposition rather than fact. Luna 
always seems to be in another world, and not really focusing on 
everything 'normal' going on around her: so I don't think she'd be as 
inclined to take an interest in Ron, nor do I think JKR intended us 
to think Luna has done so.

-peliroja




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Fri Mar 26 18:55:06 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 18:55:06 -0000
Subject: Lets ask the kids (was getting anything right)--clarifying!
In-Reply-To: <c41pan+32gb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c41uaa+dv7j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94078

Carolyn:
let's hear the best of the kids' take on the series/plot, and see 
if they have spotted something that we haven't.
 
Inge: 
As for me - when it was translated into my language I read it out 
loud to my 11-year old son. When we got to the fighting part in the 
DOM - the first thing *he* said after hearing the incident between 
Sirius and Bellatrix was: "She didn't do it. The shot came from 
somewhere else!"
 
Susan:
Oh, no!!!  Pippin, did you see this?!?  Oh, say it ain't so!  I will 
NOT believe in ESE!Lupin!  Somebody come up w/ another theory for who 
else it could be...please?

SUSAN AGAIN:
UGH!  I need to clarify here! It seems I didn't word this very 
carefully and so I sounded kinda smart-assy to someone.  Here's what 
I REALLY MEANT:
     1)  Kids are smart, and this child saw exactly what Pippin saw 
         in this scene
     2)  Pippin thinks that "unidentified-source shot" was fired by 
         Lupin
     3)  I desperately do NOT want Lupin to be ESE!Lupin, so I'm 
         begging someone else to take Inge's son's comment and 
         develop a theory for someone *besides* Lupin to have 
         been the "shooter" so that I don't have to lose faith in 
         Lupin

Sorry for any confusion.
Siriusly Snapey Susan





From annemehr at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 26 19:22:09 2004
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 19:22:09 -0000
Subject: Prophecy Problems (WAS: why are prophecies stored in glass orbs??)
In-Reply-To: <c41m7f+i1qc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c41vt1+th9b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94079

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "quigonginger"
<quigonginger at y...> wrote:
> > Lilian here:
> > 
> > IMO, the Order used the prophecy to lure LV from his hiding hole.
> The 
> > members did not so much as guard it, but were standing in the right 
> > place to raise the alarm when LV would try to enter the MoM. It was 
> > their one way to prove that LV was indeed back.
<snip>

> Ginger:
> Glad you jumped back!  I think you are totally correct about the 
> reason the Order didn't destroy the prophecy.  I would also like to 
> echo those on the list who pointed out that as long as LV was on a 
> wild goose chase trying to *get* the prophecy, he wasn't out doing 
> other Eviloverlordish things.  In other words, they dangled a carrot 
> and let him run in circles.
<snip>

Annemehr:
I also agree, and want to add just a bit of canon in support; it's
Lupin reassuring Molly just after getting rid of the boggart:

"Molly, that's enough," said Lupin firmly.  "This isn't like last
time.  The Order are better prepared, we've got a head start, we know
what Voldemort's up to --"

Obviously, this would be useless as comfort to Molly if the Order
didn't actually know what Voldemort was up to.  They *do* want
Voldemort spending time and effort to get the prophecy.  They guard
the entrance to the DoM, and they guard the only other person who
could lift the prophecy orb down from its shelf, and they wait.  Of
course, once Arthur is attacked and Dumbledore realises that LV is
aware of the scar connection, DD has to increase the effort to keep
Harry out of the DoM -- thus the Occlumency lessons.  And the rest, as
they say, is history.

Annemehr
who believes OoP is not so much about the prophecy as it is about:
1)what happens to Harry that year, and
2)how the Order exposes LV's return to the public and the MoM






From ruminalus_ficus at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 26 19:21:52 2004
From: ruminalus_ficus at yahoo.com (Andrew)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 19:21:52 -0000
Subject: What happens to victim's body after the Dementor's kiss?
In-Reply-To: <c41ifg+a3ob@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c41vsg+eo8l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94080

happybean98 wrote:
> This may seem like a trivial question, but I feel it may have some 
> future significance. What exactly happens to the body of someone 
> once they have been kissed by a Dementor?
<snip>
> Kathleen

The way I've always understood it is that their body continues to 
live, but the person himself is gone.  So the body of Barty Crouch 
is probably at St. Mungos or some other facility, where it is taken 
care of as an animal would be.  The person, Barty Crouch (or 
whomever it may be), no longer exists.  The consciousness of the 
person is destroyed.

-RF





From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net  Fri Mar 26 19:32:33 2004
From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 13:32:33 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
Message-ID: <20040326193234.GECM27801.out008.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 94081

{Kneasy}

Why on earth do you want him to be loving?

{Silverthorne}

I think you're confusing the term 'loving' with the capability to 'love'...the first is a trait expressed externally--the second a state of mind that may not necessarily be expressed in a way others can see...

{Kneasy}
I think ole Snapey is great just the way he's appeared up  to now.
By far the most interesting character in the books, credible and
providing an absolutely superb role model on how to deal with
stroppy  kids. Wonderful!

{Silverthorne}

hehe...and I bet you cheered Ebenezer on too--at least until he 'got the idea'...*winks* you old codger!

{Kneasy}

I  strongly  suspect movie contamination in all this pining for
a softer more compassionate Snape: you're not seeing Snape as
written - you're seeing Alan Rickman. Fantasy time! Be honest.

{Silverthorne}

Actaully, the 'movie contamination' I suffer from in regards to Snape is actaully from LOTR--how Brad Dorif is made up while playing Wormtongue is actually a LOT closer to how I envision the book version of Snape. I was actually surprised to see the movie version look so...nice. ^^

{Kneasy}

The Snape I imagine has a pitted cadaverous face, two days worth
of stubble, nose hairs, yellowing teeth and halitosis. We  already
know he has a hooked nose and sallow skin. A pin-up he ain't.
And he has a personality to match. 


{Silverthorne}

Um, there's an echo in here, Nick.


{Kneasy}

JKR in one interview hinted
that he might be redeemed, but he would never be nice; 'not nice
at all' are the words she's used to describe him -  and now you 
want him to be a fluffy bunny in disguise. Hearts and flowers?
More like acid and thistles for Snape. He enjoys being misanthropic.

{Silverthorne}

As I said, he *is* an ass. I have no illusions on that score. But even two-legged donkeys have feelings and are capable of love.

{Kneasy}

Hands off our nasty, bullying, sarcastic, slimy, evil Potions Master
please. He's perfect the way he is.

{Silverthorne}

You know, that's about the reaction the nasty ones get right before you figure out where their soft spot is...have we found your soft spot, Kneasy? Is that why you're defending Mr Nasty so hard? *grins and hugs*

Anne


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From siskiou at msn.com  Fri Mar 26 20:18:33 2004
From: siskiou at msn.com (Susanne)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 12:18:33 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why does Ron have a crush on Hermione?
In-Reply-To: <c41omk+bu1m@eGroups.com>
References: <c404mh+79u9@eGroups.com> <c41omk+bu1m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <648500043.20040326121833@msn.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94082



Hi,

Friday, March 26, 2004, 9:19:16 AM, jdr0918 wrote:

> JKR has made it pretty clear 
> that Hermione and Ron are destined to be "high-school sweethearts".
> Of course, given her penchant for the plot twist and her relationship
> with the individual on whom Ron is based (they're still pals and act
> goofy around each other), I'd say Ron and Hermione will no longer be
> an "item" by the end of the series.

I sure hope, JKR isn't using her RL *that* much in her
story.

It would be just a little too strange to have her do this.
So Mary-Sueish, which I hope and think, JKR manages to stay
away from.

I mean, HP is not a veiled biography of JKR's life, with
everyone based on people she knows, and everyone following
the same path those RL people took.

She may give some characteristics of RL acquaintances to her
book characters, but I don't believe she would go quite as
far as thinking: Well, everyone should have realized where
Ron and Hermione were going, seeing how I am Hermione and
Ron is my friend soandso (Sean, I think, but not 100% sure).

I've seen it mentioned, also, that Hermione would end up
with Harry, because some people think her current husband
looks like an adult Harry.

I don't know why, but I find this a little creepy. Maybe it
skirts too close to shipping real people, for me.

-- 
Best regards,
 Susanne                           mailto:siskiou at msn.com

Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/





From carolynwhite2 at aol.com  Fri Mar 26 20:27:17 2004
From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 20:27:17 -0000
Subject: They shoot horses don't they (was Horse Feathers)
In-Reply-To: <c41if9+hssm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c423n5+hfj6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94083

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
 Pop into Purdeys the Gunsmiths in St James
> and order a shotgun (if you've got a few thousands to spare). You 
won't believe the number of measurements they take. And they keep 
them on file, together with details of physical changes, alterations 
necessary to make sure that the gun fits the new physical profile, 
the lot. Ollivander might be a parody of just this sort of thing.

Carolyn (nervously):
I was going to ask why you were being measured for a shotgun, but I 
won't, and not just because it's OT...

To ward off the elves..and on the topic of blowing things up.. do you 
suppose there are any muggle weapons that can hurt a wizard ? At the 
risk of reviving the exciting topic of Vauxhall Rd..I am still 
mystified that the whole of the WW seem not to have noticed WW2, or 
indeed any other Muggle war..




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Fri Mar 26 20:35:29 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 20:35:29 -0000
Subject: Snape tipping off the wrong side (was: Snape outing Harry as Parselmouth)
In-Reply-To: <1Z96ZTOECLHQP4WKLPM2A94351E.4063ff77@hppav>
Message-ID: <c4246h+c4dp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94084

S. Mehmood:
> >Well.. as for Draco earning his grades in Potions, I tend to 
> >disagree. If Snape does not want former DEs to know that he has 
> >switched sides, he must still act like he is a DE. It seems as 
> >though the DEs stuck together after Voldemorts fall (Malfoy and 
> >McNair seemed pretty close, same with Malfoy Crabbe and Goyle). 
> >Giving Draco bad grades would have looked pretty suspicious. 

JMB: 
> Good point, but looking at the other side of it, doing just as you 
> suggest could tip off the "good guys" that there's a more personal 
> relationship involved between Snape and these students, and very 
> well could jeopardize his job.  


Susan:
Ah, but consider this.  If most of the teaching staff at Hogwarts 
*knows*:  a) that DD trusts Snape implicitly; and b) that Snape is 
POSING as a Voldy Spy while actually being a DD Spy; then they'd 
*know* not to worry too much about Snape's behavior toward the Draco 
gang, right?  They'd know it's part of his cover w/ Draco, Lucius, 
etc.  

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu  Fri Mar 26 20:38:26 2004
From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 20:38:26 -0000
Subject: What happens to victim's body after the Dementor's kiss?
In-Reply-To: <c41vsg+eo8l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c424c2+gnu3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94085

> >happybean98 wrote:
> >What exactly happens to the body of someone once 
> >they have been kissed by a Dementor?

> "Andrew" <ruminalus_ficus at y...> wrote: 
> The way I've always understood it is that their body continues to 
> live, but the person himself is gone.  So the body of Barty Crouch 
> is probably at St. Mungos or some other facility, where it is taken 
> care of as an animal would be.  The person, Barty Crouch (or 
> whomever it may be), no longer exists.  The consciousness of the 
> person is destroyed.
 
Arya now, quoting from PoA:

Remus says, "Dementors are among the foulest creatures that walk this 
earth. They infest the darkest, filthiest places, they glory in decay 
and despair, they drain peace, hope, and happiness out of the air 
around them. Even Muggles feel their presence, though they can't see 
them. Get too near a dementor and every good feeling, every happy 
memory will be sucked out of you. If it can, the dementor will feed 
on you long enough to reduce you to something like itself... soul-
less and evil. You'll be left with nothing but the worst experiences 
of your life."

Later, he also says:

"They call it the Dementor's Kiss," said Lupin, with a slightly 
twisted smile. "It's what dementors do to those they wish to destroy 
utterly. I suppose there must be some kind of mouth under there, 
because they clamp their jaws upon the mouth of the victim and -- and 
suck out his soul."

Harry accidentally spat out a bit of butterbeer.

"What -- they kill --?"

"Oh no," said Lupin. "Much worse than that. You can exist without 
your soul, you know, as long as your brain and heart are still 
working. But you'll have no sense of self anymore, no memory, no. .. 
anything. There's no chance at all of recovery. You'll just exist. As 
an empty shell. And your soul is gone forever... lost."

---------------------

The bit about 'something like themselves' makes me think that perhaps 
a Dementor's Kiss begets another Dementor eventually.   








From peckham at cyberramp.net  Fri Mar 26 20:40:47 2004
From: peckham at cyberramp.net (luna_loco)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 20:40:47 -0000
Subject: married professors?
In-Reply-To: <c41qmd+n3fv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c424gf+a3vq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94086

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "thetruthisoutthere_13"
<free_lunch_club at h...> wrote:
> One thing I've thought of: if Hogwarts professors are married, and 
> unless they have homemaker spouses, than they probably work 
> *outside* of Hogwarts. Which means they have reliable transportation 
> in and out of Hogwarts, which could be exploited by Voldemort and 
> the DE's. This also means there could be additional firepower (i.e. 
> adult wizards) if Hogwarts is attacked. 

The simple solution to this is for those professors with families to
have a residence in Hogsmeade.  The village is outside the castle
grounds but close enough for a faculty member to easily reach the
castle in all but the worst of weather.

Having professors living in Hogsmeade, and not eating in the Great
Hall, could also explain how Hogwarts can have a large enough faculty
to practically handle a thousand students.

Allen




From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Fri Mar 26 20:53:58 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 26 Mar 2004 21:53:58 +0100
Subject: Potions Master Question/ Fields of magic
Message-ID: <20040326205358.37F32163E7@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 94087

> Viridis wrote:
> > So why [Dumbledore] was teaching transfiguration? He is powerful enough to > be equally good in both fields. But still... 

> Potioncat:
> This one took on a life of its own!  I up-treaded back to see what 
> started it all. And here I am.  
> 
> Viridis, was your question ever answered?

This thread did take a life of its own, and I was following with interest, waiting or opportune moment to join, but since I was addressed so directly, can't lurk any more, can I? :-)
Hi, Sergeant, nice to meet you here :)

In my original post I did indeed equated Potions with Alchemy, which as Kathryn pointed out, may very well not be the case, Alchemy being a version of transfiguration - transmutation. Not all alchemists were concerned with transmutation of metals into gold (the whole Chinese alchemy was concerned with the Elixir of Immortality ? did Flamel studied in China?). Keeping within our cultural sphere one of the more famous Alchemists, was making a point that this study is for medicinal use  - I mean ?father of pharmacy? Paracelsus (Auroleus Phillipus Theostratus Bombastus von Hohenheim ? anybody still thinks JKR uses strange names?). 

My question was answered indirectly ? that quite possibly Dumble is master of three fields (Transfiguration, Potions and Alchemy) not just two as  thought. I always wanted to point that Dumble is probably a Potion Master ? thing which may/may not be of importance, but which is certainly overlooked (also in this very discussion :)) OK, it could have been discussed earlier I haven?t checked all 100,000 messages onboard.

Now continuing the fascinating thread I started: 
Part of Alchemical process was indeed the spiritual unification of alchemist with his ?production? ? translating into JKR terms, using magic, not only ingredients in proper quantities (even if it doesn?t include ?stupid wand waving?). Alchemy is not taught in Hogwarts. Maybe it?s a kind of higher level magic, specialized field, combining great skills in Transfiguration and Potions. Hogwarts after all is a kind of high school, they teach basics there (advanced, but still basics). There are no wizardish universities, but there can (must) be apprecenteships ? possibly Dumble was Flamel?s apprentice (them being friends doesn?t exclude such possibility). 

I?d agree with Nkafkafi, Neri and Potioncat and others that probably some fields of magic are more ?distinguished? than other ? although we have too little info about them to say which ones. I do not read Snape coveting DADA as a show of dissatisfaction with Potions ? after all he?s skilled in the fighting arts and seeing Lockhart-like abominations f***ing up the job must give him boils. And if somebody knows the importance of fighting skills, especially in this very moment, it?s him. 

As for some subjects having strong theoretical background ? we don?t know how much well organized knowledge goes for Herbology for example, not to mention seemingly very theoretical subjects like Arithmancy, of which we have no details whatsoever.

DADA in my opinion is not a ?branch of magic? just like medicine is not ?branch of science? ? it?s basically a kind of military training, using knowledge derived from many fields, just like medicine uses different sciences for single purpose. Note that for Auror training ? basically advanced DADA - you need good marks from several subjects. You can also get a Nobel prize in medicine, but in fact you?re getting it for biochemistry or sth similar

There are large areas undescribed properly ? like Charms ? sorry don?t remember who talked about possibility that jinxes, hexes are included here? Did you also notice that  - unlike most of the fantasy books ? we have no Illusory magic? Unless creating illusions is also part of charms ? maybe advanced ones, post-Hogwartish.

Right, two more remarks for the end of this ramble (sorry, early morning etc.). 

Don?t you think that also Dumble may be one of the greatest wizards alive he?s not exactly ?the best Headmaster Hogwarts ever had?? I mean, forget DADA, but Trelawney and Binns? And Hagrid? It seems that is good-nature and needs of war are taking precedence over academic merit of the school. Unless  that?s what Hogwarts always lacked in it?s 1000 year long history ? kind nature and sense of humour (albeit weird one).
 
Neville?s melting cauldrons ? aren?t they indirect indicator (admire my aliteration, please) of his hidden power? His potions are not simply useless ? they are powerful enough to melt the metal and probably a piece of floor, too. Imagine such a mixture upended on Thingy?s head (or just Bella ? now that?s a facial treatment).

I hope there will be more posts to this thread.
Cheers, Viridis

P.S. And Sergeant ? yes, I can easily imagine Snape teaching transfiguration (?Since you managed to transplant your ears on the cactus, Longbottom, let them stay there till you serve your week of detentions?)


________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!



From siskiou at msn.com  Fri Mar 26 20:55:17 2004
From: siskiou at msn.com (Susanne)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 12:55:17 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wake up call (again)!!!
In-Reply-To: <c41pi0+87d2@eGroups.com>
References: <c3vie5+clok@eGroups.com> <c41pi0+87d2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <941411374.20040326125517@msn.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94088



Hi,

Friday, March 26, 2004, 9:33:52 AM, jdr0918 wrote:

> He's 
> beginning to get his hormones under control and see past surface
> beauty, not that Luna isn't pretty; as depicted, she *is*; and no man
> can resist a woman who adores him.

But they can, especially when they aren't quite a "man",
yet, and a bit clueless about girls ;)

Also, I don't really get the feeling that Luna adores Ron
all that much, nor do I see Ron being interested in her in
the slightest, wether she's pretty or not.

I agree that Ron is maturing some, and is beginning to get
adjusted to his hormones, but I don't see anything that
would make Hermione feel she could be losing Ron to somebody
else, at this point.

She is not very nice to Luna, probably more for personal
differences, and not because Luna says a couple of nice
things to Ron.

I do think Hermione is trying to not fall for Ron, probably
because her intellectual side doesn't deem him "good enough"
(like so many readers <g>), but has a hard time winning that
fight with herself.

Just like Ron is learning that looks aren't everything when
it comes to liking a girl, maybe Hermione is learning that not
every guy needs to be an outright hero with spot on
reasoning, to be "deserving" of love.

-- 
Best regards,
 Susanne                           mailto:siskiou at msn.com

Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/





From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Fri Mar 26 20:59:52 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 20:59:52 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <20040326193234.GECM27801.out008.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <c425k8+tgr9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94089

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Silverthorne <silverthorne.dragon at v...> wrote:
> 
> I think you're confusing the term 'loving' with the capability to 'love'...the first is a trait 
expressed externally--the second a state of mind that may not necessarily be expressed 
in a way others can see...
>

Kneasy:
Hmm, well, I suppose he loves being miserable. Nothing wrong with
that, perfectly acceptable *So long as he knows it*. If it is a matter
of choice, then it's his own affair. 

As a more  general aside, IMO one of the great irritations of modern
society  is that  there's always someone eager to tell you how your
life could be so much better. Just listen and they will solve problems
you never knew you had. For some peculiar reason there are people
around who worry about the fact that crotchety, curmudgeonly old 
farts with vile tempers and misanthropic tendencies spurn the ersatz
bonhomie that infests society. They've got it wrong -  we're having
the time of our lives and it's none of their damn business how
I or you or him next door conduct our lives.

Just because Snape acts like a wolverine does not necessarily indicate
unhappiness. Even wolverines can be happy.

> 
> {Silverthorne}
> hehe...and I bet you cheered Ebenezer on too--at least until he 'got the idea'...*winks* 
you old codger!
> 

Kneasy:
Nah. He'd got the wrong idea - he thought money was all that mattered
in life. Everything he did was predicated by thoughts of cash. Now if at the
end when he threw those coins to the boy in the street, he'd heated them to
red heat first, then we could all have had a good laugh to end on.

 
> {Kneasy}
> JKR in one interview hinted
> that he might be redeemed, but he would never be nice; 'not nice
> at all' are the words she's used to describe him -  and now you 
> want him to be a fluffy bunny in disguise. Hearts and flowers?
> More like acid and thistles for Snape. He enjoys being misanthropic.
> 
> {Silverthorne}
> As I said, he *is* an ass. I have no illusions on that score. But even two-legged donkeys 
have feelings and are capable of love.


Kneasy:
Oh, dear.
Snape is set up as an archetype. Affection is  irrelevent to his character
as presented by JKR. He is intended as a boo!hiss! figure, and he's a
well drawn one. To complain that he's an ass is to take a  sledge-hammer
to miss a nut. He's the pantomime villain, the equivalent of the moustache
twirling rack-rent landlord "Father, Father, how can you be so cruel?"
"Practice, m'dear, practice!" 

I like him like that. Now I've posted before on *why* I think he's like that,
and it's a very tragic tale (Sob). But frankly, to foist onto him the well-
meaning but totally incongruous and misplaced concept of affection 
as the solution that can provide comfort and/or redemption boggles my
mind. And I don't boggle easily.

He's driven by revenge. Aha! Revenge is sweet! Revenge is warm and 
comforting! Revenge is satisfying! There will be those that raise their
hands in horror - Stop! Consider, it is better to forgive!" Cobblers.
Revenge is one of the great literary motivations, from Claasical
Greek theatre, through Shakespeare down to lowest Hollywood. Snape
is bent on getting his; everything else is secondary -  and it'll probably
be the death of him.

Then all the fans can gather at conventions and discuss his fascinating
but flawed character. So who in the books is perfect, that they should
criticise Sevvy posthumously? That is injury enough, but  to wish that
he has a loving side - Ugh!

It's  the equivalent of adding whipped cream to a good beer.

Kneasy  
 





From vmonte at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 26 21:04:54 2004
From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 21:04:54 -0000
Subject: Prophecy Problems - Is Trelawny a fraud?
In-Reply-To: <c41j8s+cfml@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c425tm+iu1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94090

vmonte writes:

Does anyone think that Trewlawny is a fraud? Is it possible that when 
she went into her two trances that she was actually being controlled 
by someone else?  If so, by who?  Could it be DD or Snape?  And if so 
why?   

Is Voldemort being manipulated by a third party?  It seems to me that 
Voldemort would have done better for himself if he had never listened 
to the prophecy in the first place.  He actually created his own 
problems -- don't you think?  

Is it possible that Snape is manipulating events on his own.  
That he is acting not so much for the Order or for Voldy, but for 
himself?  

What if there was a third party that was acting to destroy both the 
Order and the DEs? 

vmonte 




From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Fri Mar 26 21:07:17 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 26 Mar 2004 22:07:17 +0100
Subject: They shoot horses don't they?
Message-ID: <20040326210717.BE93E163F2@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 94091

> Carolyn (nervously):
> I was going to ask why you were being measured for a shotgun, but I 
> won't, and not just because it's OT...

To fit it for your length of the arme, grasp of your hand - comfort of usage, mainly.

> To ward off the elves..and on the topic of blowing things up.. do you 
> suppose there are any muggle weapons that can hurt a wizard ? At the 
> risk of reviving the exciting topic of Vauxhall Rd..I am still 
> mystified that the whole of the WW seem not to have noticed WW2, or 
> indeed any other Muggle war..

If you can hack of hipogriff head with such Muggle weapon as the axe, you can hack off the wizard's one >;) And silver bullets re being shot at werewolves from something, arent't they?
They don't use sidearms, because they are all legally armed - wand serves as a multipurpose gun. As for the heavier weapons - they can be possible easy to sabotage, so not very useful. Imagine a stick of boms banished back to the plane :) 
I think Wizards did notice the Wars and that;s the very reason they are so secretive. The Sttus of serecy went into use exacty in the moment when Muggles started to organize very large armies, standarized and using high firepower. The Muggle technology was no longer possible to balance (or at least Wizard lost easy upper hand), so the Wizard wnt into hiding.

Yes, gunning down Thingy would be quite funny. And anticlimactical. Raiders of the Lost Ark?

Cheers, Viridis
P.S. Or maybe Harry will just bash his head open with a stone (club)? Levitated one?  Sounds familiar?
________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!



From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Fri Mar 26 21:07:56 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 21:07:56 -0000
Subject: Movie contamination re:  Snape (was: Re: Lupin's resentment )
In-Reply-To: <c41kfb+95me@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4263c+prg3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94092

Kneasy:
> I  strongly  suspect movie contamination in all this pining for
> a softer more compassionate Snape: you're not seeing Snape as
> written - you're seeing Alan Rickman. Fantasy time! Be honest.

Susan:
No fair!  We were talking about this offlist, Kneasy, and now I've 
been called on it. ;-)   Seriously, I **try** to not let movie 
contamination enter in, but I have to admit that sometimes, when I go 
back to the books, I *do* get a shock when I read the real Snape.  

Of course, I'm STILL not hopping up on that fence w/ Sue.  Nosiree!  
I'm sticking with Lynette's "He may not be a nice guy, but he's a 
good guy" position.  

Siriusly Snapey Susan...who hopes she made that attribution to the 
correct person [Lynette??]






From stevejjen at earthlink.net  Fri Mar 26 21:17:35 2004
From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 21:17:35 -0000
Subject: The immensely complex Homorphus Charm
In-Reply-To: <c41g0k+bbsn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c426lf+1v23@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94093

David:
> > What Lockhart describes is the forcible transformation of a 
> werewolf 
> > from wolf form into human form, which may well not be a cure for 
> > lycanthropy.

Joe:
> Correct. It is entirely possible the werewolf could have remained 
> wolf-brained and human-bodied. I don't know--nor is canon any help 
> either way--which is which.


Jen: Like David says later, I think it's very possible the charm has 
to be performed at each full moon. So it wouldn't be a cure so much 
as symptom management, just like Wolfsbane. And presumably the best 
circumstance would be the use of Wolfsbane prior to the Homorphus 
charm!

Actually, it would bug me a little if there's a 'cure'. JKR said she 
isn't about moral lessons, but I think there's some value in Lupin 
as the 'common man'. He's struggling with a condition that can't be 
cured, only controlled, and his real power is in the choices he 
makes for symptom managment. We've seen several instances where he's 
made poor choices in his attempt to live with his condition, and 
also instances where he chooses wisely (i.e. not teaching at 
Hogwarts). Fits in with the whole Choice Theory theme.






From constancevigilance at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 26 21:21:31 2004
From: constancevigilance at yahoo.com (Susan Miller)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 21:21:31 -0000
Subject: FILK: Welcome to Madam Rosemerta's
Message-ID: <c426sr+hl0h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94094

This is the first installment of my Filked version of Cabaret, which 
I'm calling Cap Awry, for reasons which I hope become quickly clear.

This is the opening number where we are introduced to the characters 
by the Master of Ceremonies. The year is 1996 and the Wizard World is 
on the edge of war.

THE SCENE:

It's a noisy and crowded night at The Three Broomsticks. The lights 
dim. Conversation fades out as the crowd anticipates the floorshow. A 
spotlight comes up on stage on the Sorting Hat, looking sexually 
ambiguous in mascara, rouge and a bowtie. We are welcomed to the 
night's entertainment. The music comes up: 
http://www.hamienet.com/6846.mid

HAT/EMCEE:
(singing)
Welcome to Madam Rosemerta's
Hogsmeade's convivial alehouse
Wizard or beastie, being or ghoul
We're happy to see you! Grab an empty stool!
Welcome, feel free to get comfy
With loosened shoe and tie askew and cap awry!


(spoken, quickly)
Ghosts and guests, Gargoyles and gargals, 
Vampires and vamps, Good Evening! Good Morning! Good Day!
Are you happy? You will be! Take a load off! Relax!
I am your host for tonight's entertainment.

(singing)
I'm saying
Welcome, come join us, and untie -
Burnoose unloose, beret astray and cap awry!

(spoken)
Leave your troubles outside!
So - You-Know-Who's got you by the You-Know-What? Forget it!
We have no troubles here! Here, life is beautiful...
The girls are beautiful...
Even the orchestra is beautiful!

(Lights come up on a corner of the stage where the Giant Squid, in 
lipstick and garters, is playing a different instrument with every 
tentacle)

You see? I told you the orchestra was beautiful.
And now, presenting the Dark Arts Chorus!

(They come out one at a time, spotlighted and dressed provocatively)

Gilderoy! (Gilderoy is so called because of his guilty royalties!)

Quirrell! (Oh, you like Quirrell? Well, too bad! So does Gilderoy.)

Alastor! (You know, if I didn't know better, I'd say Alastor is 
acting a little "crouchy" these days. Just kidding.)

Dolores! (Yes, Dolores is from the government! Not to worry. She's 
only here to HELP you.)

Remus! (Oh, Remus, please, will you stop that! Alastor NEEDS that 
leg. Now give him back his other one. That's a good boy.)

And Snape! (Snape is the future. When he finally gets his chance to 
teach us all how to be very, very, very, very bad? That would be 
very, very, very, very, very good!)

Gilderoy, Quirrell, Alastor, Dolores, Remus and Snape.

Each and every one a qualified teacher! You don't believe me?
Well, don't take my word for it. Go ahead - ask Sibyll Trelawney!

Outside it is winter. But in here it's so hot.
Every night we have to battle with the girls to keep them from taking 
off all of their clothings.
So don't go away. Who knows? Tonight we may need all your help to 
make darn sure that Dolores keeps every stitch on!

DARK ARTS CHORUS:
We're saying
Welcome, come join us, and untie -
Burnoose unloose, beret astray and cap awry!

HAT/EMCEE:
We are here to serve you!
And now presenting the Death Eater Boys:
Here they are!

Crabbe! Goyle!
Or is it Goyle! and Crabbe ...
(You know, there's really only one way to tell the difference... I'll 
show you later.)

Avery. (Oh Avery, get up off your knees! That's for later!)

Rookwood (You know the funny thing about Rookwood? Well, I can get 
you a good price on some thongs, see me after the show.**) 

And finally, the toast of The Dark Side, Bellatrix!

BELLATRIX:
Hello, darlings!

(singing)
HAT/EMCEE:
Grab an empty stool!

ALL: 
Welcome, come join us, and untie -
(one of the Death Eater Boys, attempting to untie his shoes, trips 
over his own big feet and falls clumsily)

HAT/EMCEE (speaking over the singing):
That's Crabbe.

ALL:
Burnoose unloose, beret astray and cap awry!

We're saying
Welcome to Madam Rosemerta's
Hogsmeade's convivial alehouse

HAT/EMCEE (speaking):
Hello, stranger!

ALL:
Wizard or beastie, being or ghoul

HAT/EMCEE (speaking):
So ghoul to see you!

ALL:
We're happy to see you! Grab an empty stool!

Welcome to Madam Rosemerta's
Hogsmeade's convivial alehouse
Wizard or beastie, being or ghoul
We're happy to see you! Grab an empty stool!
Welcome, feel free to get comfy
With loosened shoe and tie askew and cap awry!

HAT/EMCEE (speaking):
Thank you!
Crabbe, Goyle, Avery, Rookwood, Gilderoy, Quirrell, Alastor, Dolores, 
Remus, Snape, Bellatrix and Me!

Welcome to the Three Broomsticks!!


** The Rookwood thongs were a wonderful artifact from TBAY, which is 
sadly unpopulated these days. Here is a great post that discusses the 
thongs in the wonderful, late lamented style that was TBAY: 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/61396.

~ Constance Vigilance

(PS, for those who, like me, loved TBAY, I suggest a visit to the 
Yahoo group Hogs_Head, where it continues in an abbreviated manner.)






From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 26 21:28:41 2004
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 21:28:41 -0000
Subject: Prophecy Problems - Is Trelawny a fraud?
In-Reply-To: <c425tm+iu1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c427a9+r0rq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94095

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" <vmonte at y...> wrote:
> vmonte writes:
> 
> Does anyone think that Trewlawny is a fraud? Is it possible that when 
> she went into her two trances that she was actually being controlled 
> by someone else?  If so, by who?  Could it be DD or Snape? And if so 
> why?   
> 
> ...edited...
> 
> vmonte

bboy_mn:

Just my opinion, but I don't think Trewlawny is a fraud; she is a
trance medium. The problem with being a trance medium is that you only
make predictions when you are in a trance. Since she is in a trance or
altered state of consciousness, she doesn't remember anything.

That means she may have made hundreds of accurate predictions in her
lifetime, but since no one was around to hear or record them, and
since she couldn't remember them, they were lost.

While what you propose may be possible, I think a better test is 'is
it likely'. In a story that is already very complex with so many
currently unsolved mysteries, and only two books left, would it be
wise for JKR to add another mystery to the story. I'm finding it hard
believe that she (JKR) can wrap up all the mysteries we DO know about
in only two books. I just don't see room for the story to become more
complicated. If anything, she will spend the next two books resolving
mysteries.

Of course, I can't by any means say that you are wrong. Perhaps what I
am really saying is that, if I have to deal with one more unforseen
unexpected plot twist, my head will explode.

Still, while I don't believe your point, it is an interesting possibility.

bboy_mn/Steve









From carolynwhite2 at aol.com  Fri Mar 26 21:40:30 2004
From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 21:40:30 -0000
Subject: the lost prophecies (was Why are prophecies stored in glass orbs??)
In-Reply-To: <BC89B4ED.13F15%ryan@phaedo.com>
Message-ID: <c4280e+oafi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94096

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "S. Ryan Quick" <ryan at p...> 
wrote:
 As for the ones which were lost, I think we need to pay as much 
attention as possible to what fragments we did hear, JKR has always 
got ways of "not delivering" information ... I can?t help thinking 
the smashed and "lost" prophecies were meant for us "not to hear" ...
> 
Carolyn:
I couldn't agree more. I've often puzzled over those two fragments 
(OOP, Ch 35):
'at the solstice will come a new..' said the figure of an old bearded 
man'
and
'..and none will come after..' said the figure of a young woman.

They seem to hint yet again at Harry being the final solution to some 
age old good/evil conflict. However, I have to say they also reminded 
me very strongly of the elves leaving Middle Earth. Perhaps with the 
inevitable defeat of Voldemort, the WW will just evolve into the 
muggle world as we know it. The theme of a lost magical kingdom is a 
well-worn one, as is the theme of growing up and away from magic to 
reality.





From owlery2003 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 26 21:32:31 2004
From: owlery2003 at yahoo.com (Scott Santangelo)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 13:32:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry Teaching DADA
In-Reply-To: <c3v93r+7ts1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040326213231.38329.qmail@web60106.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94097


sundancing10 wrote:
Any thoughts on Dumbledore picking Harry as the next DADA 
professor? Certainly, he is very young, etc, but he would now be 'of age' and he has certainly proven his teaching ability in the DA.  

Kemenran said:
I think that Harry would make a great DADA teacher as he has enough skill to teach the rest of the student population. If he needs any help, there is also Lupin, and the rest of the Order to send some books (descreetly of course) and what ever things he would need.

Owlery2003 commented:

Harry's still a student himself - the DA as an extracurricular club is one thing, but assuming full-time teaching duties is another.



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From owlery2003 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 26 21:26:43 2004
From: owlery2003 at yahoo.com (Scott Santangelo)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 13:26:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DADA post question
In-Reply-To: <c40g3u+e7oe@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040326212643.99441.qmail@web60110.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94098

Carol:<snip>if DADA were more important than Potions, wouldn't one of the heads of houses be given that position? <snip> We don't know of anything the students learned from Quirrell; all they learned from Lockhart was not to release Cornish Pixies into a classroom and how *not* to defend yourself in a duel; and even Lupin only taught them how to deal with a few minor Dark
 beings or creatures or however you would classify hinkypunks and boggarts. (Mad Eye Moody never even got to teach because his position was taken over by a maniac, so I'm not counting him as a person DD hired. We don't know how he would have approached the subject.).. if DADA were more important than the key courses taught by the heads of houses, he'd have taught it himself rather than hiring such people.
> 
Neri:
<snip> The current Hogwarts teachers are hardly the only possible candidates. There must be hundreds of wizards in Britain who could still do it better than Quirrell, Lockhart or Umbridge . . .


Owlery2003 comments:
Give Lupin and Moody/Crouch their due -  they at least made an effort to provide instruction/lessons that would be useful. But now, why not appoint an AUROR to teach? Or, as DD astutely attempted, an ex-auror (maybe very few live that long). I'd love to see the real Mad Eye come back to Hogwarts - he's a perfect complement to the staff. In general, though, Auror's have "been there."

 


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From BrwNeil at aol.com  Fri Mar 26 21:54:05 2004
From: BrwNeil at aol.com (BrwNeil at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 16:54:05 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wake up call (again)!!!
Message-ID: <59.7f20086.2d96007d@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94099

In a message dated 3/26/2004 12:36:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
jdr0918 at hotmail.com writes:
But the point is, Hermione does *not* act bothered by Luna's interest 
and she *should*. 

--JDR
Luna's interest in Ron might not bother Hermione for one of two reason.

1.  She is already seeing Ron without Harry being aware and Hermione realizes 
Luna is no compwtition.

2.  Hermione could care less because she has no interest in Ron.  


Neil who expects to see Ron with Luna at the end of canon, Nevile with Ginny, 
and Harry and Hermione with no one.  


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From helenhorsley at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 26 22:04:39 2004
From: helenhorsley at hotmail.com (dorapye)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 22:04:39 -0000
Subject: Ron's queen and Harry's castle; life once again played out on the chessboard
In-Reply-To: <c3ukj1+sb10@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c429dn+coup@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94100

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Berit Jakobsen" 
<belijako at o...> wrote:
> Quote (Ginny has just told Ron she ditched Michael Corner):
> "Ron looked highly delighted.
> 'Well, I' always though he was a bot of an idiot,' he said 
prodding 
> his queen forward towards Harry's quivering castle. 'Good for you. 
> Just choose someone - better - next time.'
> He cast Harry an oddly furtive look as he said it.
> 'Well, I've chosen Dean Thomas, would you say he's better?' asked 
> Ginny vaguely.
> 'WHAT?' shouted Ron, upending the chessboard..." (OotP p. 763 UK 
Ed)
> 
> The reader immediately gets Ron's message even though Harry might 
> not: In Ron's eyes there is only one boy good enough for his 
little 
> sister: Harry. The funny thing is that the text also has a more 
> subtle message that backs up Ron's words and hints at his 
intentions. 
> Look at what Ron is doing while he's asking Ginny to find someone 
> better and at the same time casting Harry that furtive look: He is 
> prodding *his queen* forward towards *Harry's castle*... Ron's 
move 
> on the chessboard is mimicking his desire to match his sister with 
> Harry: He is moving the queen forward, making Harry's 
> castle "quiver". Who knows? Some time in the not so far future 
Ginny 
> might make those walls come tumbling down... with or without the 
help 
> of Ron.
> 
> But then; Ron's matchmaking plans are temporarily upended by 
Ginny's 
> news that she is seeing Dean Thomas...

dorapye:
Berit, delightful analogy! 

There seems to be a groundswell of opinion that Ron's relationship 
with Harry is not as significant or as trustworthy as Harry's with 
Hermione's, but I've always found Ron's attempts to promote Ginny to 
Harry's interest rather touching - and a clear indication of his 
love and respect for his best mate. 

Wasn't there some discussion a while back about the Weasleys 
being 'Royal' and the whole 'Weasley is our King' becoming 
*literally* true, rather than simply metaphorically (i.e. a meteoric 
promotion to Minister for Magic for Arthur and the family's status 
raised)?

Did you think, Berit, that this scene may *foreshadow* Harry's 
defences being broken down by that little ginger minx, Ginny?

dorapye




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 26 22:04:35 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 22:04:35 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore's bad descisions?
In-Reply-To: <c40ggr+u6oq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c429dj+qcof@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94101

Carol wrote:
<Snip> I agree with Earendil that Sirius knew he'd be a very unsafe
guardian for Harry, especially if he murdered Peter as he apparently
intended, so he accepted DD's arrangements, even giving (lending?)
Hagrid his motorbike to carry them out. In a way it's too bad that
Hagrid didn't
> know about the Secret Keeper arrangement because he would have
angrily confronted Sirius and Sirius would just has angrily have
defended himself. Instead he went off to murder Peter and, even though
his plan failed, ruin his own life.

> 
Sue responded:
> IIRC (and of course, I have been known to be horribly wrong), Sirius 
> went to FIND and CONFRONT Peter. Not to murder him.  In the 
> Shrieking Shack he tells Lupin to hurry up because he wants to
commit the murder he was convicted of. He never says he intended to
kill Peter when he found him the day after the Potters were murdered.
> 
> Sue, who cannot find her copy of PoA anywhere since her 7 year old 
> decided to read it. :(

Carol again:
Wish I'd responded to this before anyone else did--too tired to think
straight last night. Note the "apparently" in my first sentence
above--I should have done something similar in the last sentence as
well. I do know that I'm just assuming, but given Sirius's violent
temper and general rashness, his attempt to murder Severus when they
were both sixteen, his later determination to commit the murder he was
imprisoned for, his statement at Godric's Hollow (recalled by Hagrid
in PoA) that he wouldn't be needing his motorcycle any more, and his
mad laugh as he's hauled away from the scene of Peter's crime, I'm
convinced that he intended not only to confront Peter but to get
revenge, either by killing him or by seriously and permanently
injuring him. No proof, of course, just canon evidence of his
temperament and behavior on other occasions.  Then again, I'm not a
Sirius fan and maybe I tend to judge him a bit harshly (as others
judge Snape).

Precocious seven-year-old you've got there!

Carol




From tipgardner at netscape.net  Fri Mar 26 22:06:52 2004
From: tipgardner at netscape.net (tipgardner)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 22:06:52 -0000
Subject: The power LV knows not
In-Reply-To: <20040326173533.81003.qmail@web41803.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c429hs+tjv8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94102

Miss Melanie wrote:  
>>Well I have a little bit of textual references for this granted I'm 
taking a big step by doing saying this.<< 

Tip replied:
Not too big a step at all.  You have something relevant and direct 
that is in the text.

Miss Melanie wrote: 
>>during the pensieve scene Dumbledore asks Tom if there is anything 
at ALL that he wanted to talk about.  This is very similar to the way 
that Dumbledore talks to Harry and we know for a fact that Dumbledore 
loves Harry.  I personally believe that he also loved Tom and still 
loves the boy behind the dark lord.<<

Tip replied:
I'm not sure that I agree with the conclusion, but the evidence is 
certainly there.  It is a similar line to the one DD generally gives 
Harry.  Perhaps DD cares about all of the students in a general, 
agape sort of love.

Miss Melanie wrote
>>Perhaps this is why Lord Voldemort fears Dumbledore the most, it is 
not a strength or skill mechanism.  But in Tom's mind the one person 
that he has ever become the closest to loving was Albus Dumbledore.<<

Tip replied:
Very interesting theory and not without evidence.  I guess we will 
find out in time.

Best regards,

Tip
Check out my journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/tipgardner
Check out my fan fiction: http://www.schnoogle.com




From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net  Fri Mar 26 22:29:02 2004
From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 16:29:02 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
References: <c425k8+tgr9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002401c41381$bd9b5880$05030f04@dslverizon.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 94103


{Kneasy:}
They've got it wrong -  we're having the time of our lives and it's none of
their damn business how I or you or him next door conduct our lives.
Just because Snape acts like a wolverine does not necessarily indicate
unhappiness. Even wolverines can be happy.


{Silverthorne:}
And Wolverines also have thier own form of love (mostly to do with being
solitary and perhaps one mate they can tolerate just long enough to make
more wolverines with, but hey...:P). We are in agreement, whether you care
to admit it or not. ^^ I don't demand that Snape change, I demand that other
people take a good hard look at why he is the way he is and then realize
that what they hate so much in him is reflected in the other, more popular
characters in many ways. Therefore they might want to reconsider *why* they
find it so abhorent in him and not the others...and usually, if they're
taking an *honest* look, they'll find its because they can overlook those
same faults in the other characters because they 'understand them better' or
'relate to them better'. In other words, the packaging is far more
attractive to them, so they're more willing to give benefit of the doubt.
Pretty one sided, especially for a generation and society that is priding
itself on becoming more 'advanced' in its treatment of its fellow human
beings.


{Kneasy:}
Nah. He'd got the wrong idea - he thought money was all that mattered in
life. Everything he did was predicated by thoughts of cash. Now if at the
end when he threw those coins to the boy in the street, he'd heated them to
red heat first, then we could all have had a good laugh to end on.

{Silverthorne:}
*snort!*


{Kneasy:}
Oh, dear. Snape is set up as an archetype. Affection is  irrelevent to his
character as presented by JKR. He is intended as a boo!hiss! figure, and
he's a well drawn one. To complain that he's an ass is to take a
sledge-hammer to miss a nut. He's the pantomime villain, the equivalent of
the moustache twirling rack-rent landlord "Father, Father, how can you be so
cruel?" "Practice, m'dear, practice!"


{Silverthorne}
I'm not complaining about him being an ass, I just beleive there's more to
him than his villianous ways, as you would put it. ;). I have no doubt he
will never be one of the characters meant to be 'liked'...whatever happens
to him will have most of the audience probably relieved because he will be
*gone*, no matter what removes him from play.

{Kneasy}
I like him like that. Now I've posted before on *why* I think he's like
that, and it's a very tragic tale (Sob). But frankly, to foist onto him the
well- meaning but totally incongruous and misplaced concept of affection as
the solution that can provide comfort and/or redemption boggles my mind. And
I don't boggle easily.

{Silverthorne}
Er....I already think he is capable and does have those feelings--they won't
come later as a result of some sudden and tragic wake up call, so I don't
consider it a 'solution' to his 'problem'. We may never see the 'more
postive' feelings he has, but they're there. Probably locked carefully away
to keep well meaning idiots from trying to pry them out where they can get
trampled underfoot. Again.

{Kneasy}
He's driven by revenge. Aha! Revenge is sweet! Revenge is warm and
comforting! Revenge is satisfying! There will be those that raise their
hands in horror - Stop! Consider, it is better to forgive!" Cobblers.
Revenge is one of the great literary motivations, from Classical Greek
theatre, through Shakespeare down to lowest Hollywood. Snape is bent on
getting his; everything else is secondary -  and it'll probably be the death
of him.

{Silverthorne}
Revenge is also outdated and overused...lol...and he would be sharing the
stage with Voldemort if that's his excuse...(Who wants revenge AND power).
Share the stage? Good god, Severus should know better. If he's going to
shine as the villian, he should at least get his own schtick!

Also, revenge is best served cold--and after some of Snape's outbursts,
'cold' is not a word I would use to describe him. ^^So it would be a pretty
sorry revenge, I would think.

{Kneasy}
Then all the fans can gather at conventions and discuss his fascinating but
flawed character. So who in the books is perfect, that they should criticise
Sevvy posthumously? That is injury enough, but  to wish that he has a loving
side - Ugh!

It's  the equivalent of adding whipped cream to a good beer.

{Silverthorne}

Then I hope you enjoy the whip cream I sent you!

*grins madly*

Anne







From helenhorsley at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 26 22:36:01 2004
From: helenhorsley at hotmail.com (dorapye)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 22:36:01 -0000
Subject: Sirius/Tonks
In-Reply-To: <c3urvo+tjs6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c42b8h+3bqk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94104

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "drjuliehoward" 
<drjuliehoward at y...> wrote:
> > 
> But Tonks is a metamorphmagus.  Why, then, the "Animagus" Black?

dorapye:
Okay, sorry, I haven't been able to keep up with this thread 
completely (time constraints - I know, lame excuse, but true!), 
however, I just wanted to add my own interpretation of this line 
from Bellatrix.  

Someone somewhere up thread offered the suggestion that an animagus 
may be despised amongst the Wizarding community, for the ability to 
transform themselves into a dumb beast.  I wonder...the ability to 
transform into a 'familiar' is an age-old witch art...

I understand Bellatrix's description of Sirius as 'the Animagus 
Black', as it is, making her excuses for not realising that the 
prophecy orb had been destroyed, as an attempt to explain to LV that 
she was fighting a very powerful wizard, an Animagus no less, and, 
of course, this took up all her time and attention during the battle.

She is attempting to excuse her dereliction of duty to LV's 
objective by 'bigging up' the duel she was engaged in at the time - 
with the *powerful* Animagus Sirius Black.

I know other list members have questioned whether Sirius is indeed 
anything above the ordinary in wizarding terms, but we do have in 
canon descriptions of his brilliance at Hogwarts, and how he and 
James were, academically, top of their year.  

On top of that, we can infer from Sirius's attempt to fool LV with 
the Secret Keeper switch that he certainly believed he could lead 
the DEs a merry dance and that he was a match for any of them 
(though perhaps not LV himself, even if he was an arrogant and 
reckless young man). 

I think 'the Animagus Black' is not Bella's effort to disparage 
Sirius and therefore dismiss her triunph in dispatching him through 
the Veil, but her attempt to remind LV that she was fighting a 
fierce duel against a recognised powerful foe and explain why her 
attention was diverted from the orb.

dorapye






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 26 22:50:52 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 22:50:52 -0000
Subject: Snape's "favoritism" (Was: Snape outing Harry as Parselmouth)
In-Reply-To: <c40ata+avp5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c42c4c+am01@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94105

-S. Mehmood wrote:
> 
> Well.. as for Draco earning his grades in Potions, I tend to 
> disagree. If Snape does not want former DEs to know that he has 
> switched sides, he must still act like he is a DE. It seems as 
> though the DEs stuck together after Voldemorts fall (Malfoy and 
> McNair seemed pretty close, same with Malfoy Crabbe and Goyle). 
> Giving Draco bad grades would have 
> looked pretty suspicious. However, I dont mean does not 
> contradict the claim that Draco is competent, Im just saying he 
> probably doesnt need to be competent to do well in Snapes class. I 
> do, however, agree that Draco is a "very competent yound wizard."
> 
> As for the 2nd year serpensortia thing, I seem to agree with you. It 
> is akin to conjuring, something that 5th years haven't reached. It 
> was also a live animal (a vertebrate no less). I think it may have 
> been a slight flint, because I doubt Malfoy is that skilled, 
> esspecially when it doesnt seem as though he had practiced the spell 
> thoroughly before he used it.

Carol:
We really have no evidence of Snape giving Draco better grades than he
deserved. On one of the essays (it may have been the moonstone one) in
OoP, Snape says that he gave everyone the grades they would have
deserved if it were their OWL exam. Harry received a D ("dreadful")
and probably deserved it, Ron received a P ("poor") and again,
probably deserved it, Hermione received an A ("acceptable") rather
than an "E" ("exceeds espectations" or an O ("outstanding) and doesn't
complain. She sees it as evidence that she needs to work harder to
prepare for her OWLs. We're not told what grade Draco received, but
his snide remark, "You mean some people got D's?" suggests that, like
Ron, he received a P. Surely if he had received anything higher,
particularly an E or an O, he would have said so and flashed the grade
for everyone to see.

Earlier, in CoS, we see Draco in Knockturn Alley with his father, and
it's clear that his father is displeased about Draco's marks, which
are not as high as Hermione's (how Lucius knows Hermione's marks isn't
clear, but probably Draco himself told him). To me it would seem
suspicious if Snape alone gave Draco grades he didn't deserve.
Probably he received better than average but not excellent marks, and
it's clear that Lucius blames Draco himself for not making his best
effort, rather than the teachers who gave him the marks.

One more point. We're constantly told about Harry's mistakes in
Potions (missing a step, or whatever, because his thoughts are
elsewhere), about Neville melting cauldrons, even about one of Goyle's
potions having the consistency of wet cement, but I don't recall a
single instance of Draco's potions going wrong. Admittedly, he doesn't
have the distraction of a teacher who dislikes him constantly
criticizing him, but he does seem to get the potions right. If he
didn't, Harry would notice and gloat about it.

So, yes, Snape has to be on good terms with Lucius Malfoy (at least
until the events at the end of OoP), but I don't think he's resorting
to inflating Draco's grades to do it. Ignoring Draco's misbehavior in
class, booking the Quidditch pitch for the Slytherins at the expense
of the Gryffindors, docking points from the Gryffindors at every
opportunity, yes. But he's a strict teacher with high standards who
can't bear having "dunderheads" in his classes, and I'm willing to bet
that Crabbe and Goyle got the D's they deserved on that essay and that
neither of them will be in Snape's NEWT Potions class next year.

Regarding Serpensortia, I agree that it's an advanced spell for a
second-year student, but if you have Lucius Malfoy for a father, you
probably practice spells (and even some Dark Magic) at home. After
all, there are no Muggles around to witness the underage magic and
Draco's father has influence (spelled g-o-l-d) at the MoM. So I'm not
 surprised about Snape's knowing that the twelve-year-old Draco could
cast a competent Serpensortia. For all we know, he may even have
watched him do it over the summer holidays. (I'm still wavering as to
whether Snape suspected that Harry was a Parselmouth and had Draco
cast that spell to "out" him. I'm leaning toward yes on that one.)

Carol, who wonders where Snape spends his summer holidays




From gbannister10 at aol.com  Fri Mar 26 22:51:37 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 22:51:37 -0000
Subject: getting anything right
In-Reply-To: <c411lh+rsqq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c42c5p+5cie@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94106

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:

Kneasy:
> In the meantime - we make hay while  the  sun shines. 

Geoff:
But you then munchthe hay in the winter when the sun isn't 
shining......


Kneasy:
> Being right is
> largely irrelevant IMO; being wrong in an interesting or 
entertaining way
> is more fun than being stodgy but right. No-one is keeping score, 
after all=
> .
> And if in the process you can provoke supposed outrage or 
opposition.... 
> Yes, there'll be a certain smug satisfaction if one's theory is 
confirmed,
> momentary disappointment if it's not, but it'd hardly be an earth-
> shattering trauma requiring intensive counseling.
> 
> My advice -  grab the opportunity to let your imagination run riot 
among
> like-minded folk. I doubt there'll be a chance like this again.


Geoff:
There's been a lot of theorising and chewing the cud over Tolkien's 
books since they came out and it still engenders fun and frolic. The 
various commentaries and critiques are of interest, especially if you 
don't agree with then and then you get a satisfaction over finding 
that Tom Shippey agrees with a theory or critical point you first 
made 30 years ago.

And even then, when the dust from Book 7 has settled, there will 
still be room for our imaginations to run on with ideas about what 
happened next with people who survive Pottergeddon, or whatever Book 
7 will lead to.....




From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net  Fri Mar 26 23:41:04 2004
From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 17:41:04 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
References: <c42dmi+9bpl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <003201c4138b$cdde5b20$05030f04@dslverizon.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 94108

{Nora}

I've been following this thread idly, but I feel now is the time to
poke my head in:

I don't like this line of reasoning, the 'Snape ain't so bad compared
to other characters'.  There's a great name for it in Latin--'tu
quoque', best translated as 'you're one too'.

A lot of it boils down to the circumstances and position which he
occupies--abuse of authority.  We do have that stated as a reason from JKR's
mouth herself, which is
possibly problematic (not to go into those issues), but I myself suspect
that we'll be given more solid (enough to quell any but the most subversive
reading) textual vidence.  Not to go into any great detail at present, but
that's a powerfully distinguishing situation.

{Silverthorne}

And that *is* a fair reason, but the point I still hold by is this--he is
that way because he did *not* have the guidance others have had. He didn't
have James's Lily, he didn't have whoever taught Remus to be fair and
balanced, he didn't even have the balm, however imperfect, that Sirius had
by having the friends he had. Like the others, circumstances shaped him and
his actions as well, and that includes his 'misuse of authority'--and in his
case, most examples he had to go by were very bad ones indeed. And yet
somehow, people expect him to have come to the same conclusions about how to
act, how to speak, how to treat other people. Not only that, but when he
*does* break his own patterns of behaivior (Praising Harry, taking him
seriously about the danger Sirius might be in, willingly returning to
Voldemort (as a spy) even though it could cost him his life, even leaving
the DE fold in the first place), it's all discounted.  Small improvements
are not enough for the audience (or Harry)....and yet, if he were a real
person, undergoing real coucilling and changes, they would be victories for
a man who *is* so messed up.

By the same token, he is not physically abusive--other then Neville (who
already had his insecurities well ingrained into his head by his own
Grandmother), the students are not affected overly much by Snape's words
other then having a distinct dislike for him. And although you may disagree,
compared to what Umbridge does to the students, an acid tongue is minor
indeed. The problem with people claiming 'verbal abuse' is that they forget
one very important thing--unlike physcial abuse, you *can * ignore it. All
you have to do is not buy into what the other person is saying (that's
called 'enabling', BTW). It's one of the very first thing a councillor will
tell you--in order for it to work, you have to play victim--you have to
enable. You don't, and it ceases to affect you.

{Nora}

I'll also confess that Snape is still opaque because his motivations
are still opaque.  But if JKR follows her geneal pattern, he'll
eventually be defined--and then everything will fall into a
remarkably clear resolution, without the wiggle room.  There'll come
a time when things are clear.  I'll eat my crow if it's served, and
do the little dance of victory if my thematic suspicions are
confirmed. :)

{Silverthorne}

Just as I will eat my words should I be proven wrong...!

-Nora means it all in good fun, and nails characters with equal
opportunity

Same here ^^

Anne



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From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 26 23:40:18 2004
From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 23:40:18 -0000
Subject: The immensely complex Homorphus Charm
In-Reply-To: <c426lf+1v23@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c42f12+t09k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94109

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" <stevejjen at e...> 
wrote:

> Like David says later, I think it's very possible the charm has 
> to be performed at each full moon. So it wouldn't be a cure so 
much 
> as symptom management, just like Wolfsbane. And presumably the 
best 
> circumstance would be the use of Wolfsbane prior to the Homorphus 
> charm!

Maybe the "cocktail" would do the trick. Having said that, IF (and a 
gigantically huge "if" at that) there's anything remotely true about 
the Lockhart (by saying the villagers were spared their monthly 
terror) story it *IMPLIES*--but doesn't categorically state--this 
charm need be performed more than once per werewolf.

Discuss.

-Joe in SoFla




From spirit_guided at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 26 21:14:18 2004
From: spirit_guided at hotmail.com (demukotaus)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 21:14:18 -0000
Subject: crookshanks and mundungus??
Message-ID: <c426fa+oc07@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94110

I'm not sure if this particular subject has been covered yet, so 
please forgive me if it has.

Has anyone seen the striking resemblence between Mundungus Fletcher 
and Crookshanks?  I can't think of any great examples right now.  
However, I do remember reading OotP for the first time a while ago 
and thinking to myself that these two characters are very similar in 
detail.

I know that Crookshanks is supposed to be a Kneazel.  However, I'm 
not completely sure what that is either.

Anyway, I thought I would bump you guys this clue and see if you 
could set and spike it for me.

Thanks
Demuko out...





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 27 00:15:33 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 00:15:33 -0000
Subject: If DD knows, then why...? [was: Snape, trying very hard not to smile?]
In-Reply-To: <c41ejo+8o51@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c42h35+jg9f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94111

SUSAN:
<snip> Is there something in canon which makes people *sure* DD knew
Tom opened the Chamber and what was within it, or is it the
"all-knowing DD" assumption?  
> 
Carol:
> Dumbledore may have suspected that Tom had opened the Chamber, but
> surely he would have testified against him at Hagrid's expulsion
> hearing if he had conclusive evidence. Instead, Hagrid's wand was
> broken and he was expelled. <snip>
> I think Dumbledore suspected that Tom had
> opened the Chamber and may even have suspected that it contained a
> basilisk but could prove nothing and so he did nothing. 
> Well, I thought I knew where I was going on this post, but now I've
> succeeded in confusing myself. At any rate, I started out thinking
> that DD didn't know that Tom Riddle had opened the Chamber. Now I'm
> leaning the other way--he either knew or strongly suspected but had 
> no proof.
> Coming to my rescue, SSS?
> 
> Sue: 
> I'll help Carol! (At least I will try.) I didn't see any 
> reluctance in Myrtle about sharing her experience, in fact when 
> Harry asked, "Myrtle's whole aspect changed at once.  She looked as 
> though she had never been asked such a flattering question."  CoS 
> US pb 299. If DD had bothered to ask, she would have been more 
> than willing to share.

> SUSAN AGAIN:
> Hmmmm....  Things get curiouser & curiouser, then, don't they?  With 
> JKR's fondness for "as though" and "as if" statements being clues, I 
> suspect that this DOES mean Myrtle was never asked before.  Why the 
> dickens didn't DD ask her anything?!?  Surely he couldn't be unaware 
> of her ghost's presence at Hogwarts??

Carol:
Thanks, Sue. I deleted the Myrtle section of my original post because
the whole thing was getting out of hand and looking up quotes is so
time-consuming that I felt I couldn't support it properly. I was going
to say something about her possibly being too occupied with getting
revenge on Olive Hornby to cooperate with Dumbledore. But I think
you're right that she would have been flattered by the inquiry and it
seems strange that he wouldn't ask. But maybe he did ask her about her
death and she couldn't identify the boy whose voice she heard
(probably she didn't see Tom or even the basilisk itself--only the
deadly yellow eyes). That would confirm DD's suspicions that a
basilisk had petrified the students, but he still wouldn't have had
the proof he needed to implicate Tom and rescue Hagrid. And since
Myrtle apparently didn't see the basilisk come out of the entrance
(exit!) to the Chamber of Secrets, he wouldn't necessarily have
guessed that it was right there in that girls' restroom.

We have one more quote that I forgot to cite in my previous post,
Professor Binns's comment that "the school has been searched for such
a chamber, many times, by the most learned wizards and witches" (SS
Am. ed. 151). This group includes DD because Binns adds, after arguing
that the Chamber is a mere legend, "If a long succession of Hogwarts
headmasters and headmistresses haven't found the thing-- . . . I
repeat, if the likes of Dumbledore--" (152). Of course, Binns seems to
be oblivious to the death of Myrtle fifty years earlier (and anything
outside his dusty old books), so he's not the most reliable witness,
but still he seems to be saying that straight out that DD looked for
the Chamber and couldn't find it.
 
Sue:
> I tend to think that, as you [Carol] said, there was no way for DD 
> to prove what he believed. There was probably nothing he could do 
> about the Chamber either. Only a Parselmouth can open it, he just 
> had to wait and hope another one didn't come along.  <snip>
> Once it was open, all he could do was sit and wait.

Carol:
Right. Or, as Binns reluctantly tells the students, only the Heir
could unseal it (151), but evidently once it had been unsealed,
another Parselmouth could open it (a point that Binns, of course,
doesn't make). But, either way, DD not only couldn't open it, he
evidently couldn't even find it before or after it was reopened. And
when Harry finally found the entrance, DD was gone--but of course, he
seems to have arranged for Fawkes and the sword of Gryffindor to come
to Harry's aid when he needed them.

Thanks, Susan and Sue. I'm back to the point where I think DD did the
best he could under the circumstances. Maybe there's more to his
"innocent until proven guilty, Severus," than meets the eye. He hadn't
really proven Tom Riddle's guilt in opening the Chamber fifty years
earlier. And even at this point in the story, it can't be proven with
the basilisk dead and the diary destroyed.

As I said in an earlier post, he never reveals the whole story to the
students. Most of them don't even know about the basilisk. (See the
first DA meeting in the Hog's Head Inn.) No wonder half the school
believes Harry tells tall tales!

Carol




From Zarleycat at aol.com  Sat Mar 27 00:19:36 2004
From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 00:19:36 -0000
Subject: Snape and Sirius (was: An inside to Snape's resentment)
In-Reply-To: <000f01c412bf$c7767820$05030f04@dslverizon.net>
Message-ID: <c42hap+g0jr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94113

, "Silverthorne" wrote:
<massive snip> 

Marianne: 

I'm responding to Silverthorne's excellent post as a whole. She has 
expressed a feeling I've experience a lot. She wrote a whole lot of 
stuff regarding Snape and Sirius and how people who bash Snape may 
ignore the same character traits in Sirius.  Or may see those traits 
but are apparently willing to cut Sirius some slack.  I got the 
feeling that Silverthorne thinks that Sirius has legions of people 
who stick up for him no matter what, while there is a preponderance 
of Snape-bashing going on.

I fully appreciate the points made in that post, although my feeling 
is that most of the bashing since OoP has been of Sirius, while the 
sympathy quotient for Snape has sky-rocketed.  Either way, it's 
always struck me as odd when people can see a life-changing event as 
*exactly* that for one characer, and brush off a life-changing event 
for another character as simply something that was merely a temporary 
bad experience that that character should have gotten over by now.  

The curiously parallel lives of Snape and Sirius seem to cause that 
precise reaction in a lot of readers.  And then we start wrangling as 
to which character had it worse and analyzing individual sentences to 
prove our point as to which one is more worthy of sympathy or 
admiration or which one should be roundly condemned.  I don't think 
there is any other pairing in the Potter universe that gets this 
response.  Although I suppose the H/Hr vs R/Hr shippers can go a bit 
over the top when they take aim at each other ;-). But, so often, 
these two are weighed and measured against each other, as if the 
negative aspects of one have a direct correlation to the positive 
aspects of the other.

On the other hand, with 11,000+ members on the list, we're bound to 
get every opinion under the sun.  And if someone's opinion is that 
Sirius (or Snape) is just a total waste of space, with no redeeming 
qualities whatever, while Snape (or Sirius) is a damaged person with 
his heart in the right place even if he doesn't always exhibit the 
best behavior, well, they're entitled to it, although it does pretty 
much shut down any basis for a discussion.  I'm firmly with 
Silverthorne in preferring to read commentaries that recognize the 
good and bad qualities in both characters. 

Marianne, who's very first post years ago suggested, tongue in cheek, 
that Severus and Sirius were fraternal twins separated at birth






From witchwriter_no1 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 26 20:46:37 2004
From: witchwriter_no1 at yahoo.com (witchwriter_no1)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 20:46:37 -0000
Subject: If DD knows, then why...?
Message-ID: <c424rd+bmsf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94114

> Potioncat also wondered:
> > Why do you think DD knew Tom Riddle opened the Chamber?  I'm sure 
> > he knew Hagrid didn't but what did he know for certain? How would 
> > he know it was a basilisk? Perhaps he tried to talk to Myrtle, but 
> > didn't learn anything. Harry had a difficult enough time getting 
> > her to talk and she may not have talked to a professor.  For that 
> > matter, DD may have been hampered in his investigation in the 
> > early days by Headmaster Dippit 
> 
> 
> SUSAN AGAIN:
> Yes, I think these are good questions as well.  Is there something 
> in canon which makes people *sure* DD knew Tom opened the Chamber 
> and what was within it, or is it the "all-knowing DD" assumption?  
> It certainly seems he *should* have tried speaking w/ Myrtle.  Would 
> DD have "ways" of making a ghost answer questions??

Witch Writer:

   I am all with potioncat on this. There is no way DD would have 
known that the Chamber was opened by Tom Riddle and the monsterous 
creature dwelling inside was a Basilisk. He didnt have so many clues 
to work with. Only one incident happened and that was the death of 
Myrtle. He does not know parsel tounge and thus couldnt have know 
that a snake is moving in the wall(through pipes). He couldnt have 
figured out people are petrified if not seen in the eye. I am sure he 
had one clue though, that spiders flee from it. But is that enough. 
And sure enough DD would have known Hagrid didnt do that murder.

   DD sure would have quizzed the ghost, but what can he find out? 
That she was killed by big yellow eyes and a boy was whispering some 
thing weird. It could have been any language she didnt understand. 
And as DD couldnt have figured out its a snake and moves through 
plumbing, couldnt have understood or rather concluded that seeing the 
yellow eyes near the sink had anything to do with the entrance being 
located. 

Witch Writer ... always looking out for strange new clues 






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 27 00:41:43 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 00:41:43 -0000
Subject: The immensely complex Homorphus Charm
In-Reply-To: <c41dtu+3718@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c42ik7+h0e1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94115

"davewitley" wrote:
> 
> Of course, if Voldemort turns out to have a tame werewolf that 
> he  can use to frame Lupin, then Homorphus may become 
> relevant.
> 
Pippin responded: 
> <snip> it's possible that homorphus only 
> restores the human shape, as the wolfsbane potion only allows 
> the werewolf to keep his human mind. 

Carol:
Good suggestion, Pippin. Also, assuming that the Homorphus Charm isn't
a figment of Lockhart's imagination, surely Dumbledore would know of
its existence and would have performed it on Remus at the first
opportunity if it were really a cure, making Snape's wolfbane potion
(and more important, Lupin's suffering) unnecessary.

As long as we're on the topic of werewolf!Lupin, I find it odd that
the WW regards werewolves as half-human. When JKR stated in the chat
that Lupin was a half-blood, she apparently meant one witch or wizard
parent and one Muggle parent (like Seamus) or Muggle-born parent (like
Harry), not one human and one nonhuman (or half-human) parent. Also
we're told that he was bitten as a child, not born to a werewolf parent. 

But his name seems to suggest otherwise--that his father (Romulus J.
Lupin, maybe?) was a werewolf. So maybe Remus's Muggle-born mother
married his pureblood, secretly werewolf father, and his father (in
his werewolf phase) bit Remus when he was a little boy. Then it would
all fit together, even, in a sense, the half-human (or part-human)
label. (Of course, there's always the question of how his werewolf
father got through school without a Whomping Willow and the Shrieking
Shack, but I don't want to get into that!).

Okay, I know it sounds like fanfic, which was not at all my intention.
All I'm wondering is whether anyone else thinks that the werewolf who
bit Remus Lupin *could* have been his own father, also named Lupin
("wolfish")?

Carol, who still wonders why Lupin had "Professor R. J. Lupin" on his
suitcase in peeling letters when the only wizarding school in Britain
is Hogwarts. Where else would he have been teaching? Beauxbatons and
Durmstrang would never have hired him.




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sat Mar 27 00:46:19 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 00:46:19 -0000
Subject: If DD knows, then why...? [was: Snape, trying very hard not to smile?]
In-Reply-To: <c42h35+jg9f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c42isr+bc7u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94116

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" 
<justcarol67 at y...> wrote:
 But maybe [Dumbledore] did ask [Myrtle] about her
> death and she couldn't identify the boy whose voice she heard
> (probably she didn't see Tom or even the basilisk itself--only 
the deadly yellow eyes). That would confirm DD's suspicions that 
a basilisk had petrified the students, but he still wouldn't have 
had the proof he needed to implicate Tom and rescue Hagrid. <<

Neither FB nor Hermione's library book page  reports that 
basilisks have yellow eyes, probably because up to the time 
Tom started using the  basilisk's glare to petrify 
instead of kill, nobody had ever survived seeing it. So even if 
Dumbledore questioned Myrtle and the victims of the other 
attacks that Dippit mentioned, he wouldn't know that the yellow 
eyed monster was   a basilisk.

Tom, of course, is perfectly capable of saying that Hagrid's 
monster had big yellow eyes, counting on the fact that nothing on 
earth would convince Hagrid to produce Aragog for examination 
(and subsequent disposal.)


 Dumbledore may have later guessed that the monster was a 
basilisk using the same evidence (fleeing spiders and dead 
roosters)  that Hermione did. Short of stationing crowing 
roosters everywhere in the castle,  the information would be of 
little use unless he could locate the entrance to the Chamber. I 
do wonder if he thought that Harry might be a Parselmouth and 
charged Snape with finding out. He wouldn't want to test Harry 
himself because the whole subject of Harry's connection with 
Voldemort is a very touchy one which Dumbledore is trying to 
avoid.

Pippin




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Sat Mar 27 00:50:53 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 00:50:53 -0000
Subject: Evaluating Snape (was: Re: Lupin's resentment )
In-Reply-To: <003201c4138b$cdde5b20$05030f04@dslverizon.net>
Message-ID: <c42j5d+df8t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94117

{Nora}
> I don't like this line of reasoning, the 'Snape ain't so bad 
> compared to other characters'.  There's a great name for it in 
> Latin--'tu quoque', best translated as 'you're one too'.

{Silverthorne}
> By the same token, he is not physically abusive--other then 
> Neville (who already had his insecurities well ingrained into his 
> head by his own Grandmother), the students are not affected overly 
> much by Snape's words other then having a distinct dislike for 
> him. And although you may disagree, compared to what Umbridge does 
> to the students, an acid tongue is minor indeed. The problem with 
> people claiming 'verbal abuse' is that they forget one very 
> important thing--unlike physcial abuse, you *can * ignore it. 

Susan:
Stepping in to disagree just a wee bit here.  You are correct that 
Snape does not appear to physically abuse his students.  However, I 
would argue that what he does to Neville borders on bullying and, 
more importantly, that what he does w/ Harry is something different 
altogether than verbal abuse or physical abuse.  

Let's call it GRADE ABUSE.  Think of those times when Snape is not 
only snarly or acidic or sarcastic in his comments towards Harry, 
but when he **totally unfairly**--with no foundation--gives Harry a 
zero on the day's potion.  At least twice that I can think of Harry 
was given a zero when he either flat-out didn't deserve the zero or 
someone *else* [was it Draco?] caused the potion flask to be 
broken.  And IIRC, comments are made throughout the books which 
imply that Snape *routinely* gives Harry unwarranted zeros and 
delights in doing so.  

If Harry were a poor enough student to routinely deserve zeros, that 
would be one thing.  But that clearly does not appear to be the 
case.  Snape abuses his power and assigns zeros where they are not 
due, just to be cruel to Potter.  Whether he is trying to teach some 
kind of "life lesson" is debatable but is irrelevant in my mind.  
This is clear abuse of power.

I know, I know.  Lots of the time I defend Snape and argue that he 
is, overall, a good guy.  I also do believe he is extremely talented 
as a potionmaker.  But when it comes to his teaching methods, I will 
often argue that he is out of line.  This is part of the "not a nice 
guy" even though he's a "good guy" in the fight against Voldy, I 
guess.

Siriusly Snapey Susan







From stevejjen at earthlink.net  Sat Mar 27 00:54:14 2004
From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 00:54:14 -0000
Subject: The immensely complex Homorphus Charm
In-Reply-To: <c42f12+t09k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c42jbm+sgvn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94118

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jmgarciaiii" 
<jmgarciaiii at y...> wrote:
> Maybe the "cocktail" would do the trick. Having said that, IF (and 
a 
> gigantically huge "if" at that) there's anything remotely true 
about 
> the Lockhart (by saying the villagers were spared their monthly 
> terror) story it *IMPLIES*--but doesn't categorically state--this 
> charm need be performed more than once per werewolf.


Jen: Yes, the way Lockhart describes the event it implies a one-time 
deal and the werewolf is cured. 

My thought is the Homorphus charm really does exist, but the 
description Lockhart gives of the process is incorrect. After all, 
not even Lockhart would publish a book with a made-up charm that no-
one has ever heard of, or else it would become WW news! His books 
are very popular; someone, somewhere with a werewolf family member 
would certainly contact him for more information, or someone doing 
research in the area. At the very least the Werewolf registry in the 
MOM would probably want to know about it to reduce their caseload!

So, lets say the charm exists. Well at that point we have info from 
Fantastic Beasts that says there is "no known cure" for 
lycanthrophy. So the spell would have to perform some other function.

Lockhart tells Harry and Ron this in COS:

"My dear boy...do use your common sense. My books wouldn't have sold 
half as well if people didn't think *I'd* done all those things."

"...There was work involved. I had to track these people down. Ask 
them exactly how they managed to do what they did."

IF Lockhart's telling the truth here, we now know there's a 
Homorphus charm and there's at least one person out there who can 
perform it. But that's where I think the truth ends! His antics in 
the classroom were drama. 

The real Homorphus charm, immensely complex like the Fidelius, might 
also require two people who enter into the charm together instead of 
one person casting the spell on another without their consent. So, 
with the consent of the werewolf, the caster is able to change the 
werewolf to human form once a month, but only after the person has 
transformed. Otherwise it would be a cure.





From carolynwhite2 at aol.com  Sat Mar 27 01:02:49 2004
From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 01:02:49 -0000
Subject: RadioTBAY: An interview with Kirley (ridiculously long)
Message-ID: <c42jrr+k4ld@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94119

Ted Tonks here (1). Good afternoon and welcome to the Witching Hour
(2). I'm standing in for Celestina today, and what a treat Radio TBay 
has lined up for you today ladies! Conjure up a cuppa and wave your 
wand at those dishes, as we launch into an exclusive interview with 
heart-throb Kirley Duke McCormach, lead guitarist in the chart-
topping Weird Sisters (3). Kirley will be delighted to answer any 
questions, so wake up those owls, we want to hear from you ! 

TT: Kirley, thanks for joining us ..can you tell us first of all what 
you wizards are doing in a band called the Weird Sisters ?!

KMcC: Well, that's the joke of course, none of us are witches(4), so 
we are weird sisters. The person who founded the group liked to play 
with ideas about gender and identity. We all look pretty much like 
witches on stage actually ? wild and hairy.(5)

TT: But why did you join them in the first place ? Didn't you want to 
be a Quidditch player, after all it runs in the family ?(6)

KMcC: No way ? you've no idea how boring Quidditch talk can be, day 
in, day out. Then when my mother got together with Hamish, and he got 
made Minister for Sport.. I had to leave home and do something 
different.(7)

TT: Wasn't there some scandal about Hamish that got hushed up ? All I 
know is that all of a sudden we had Ludo Bagman as Minister for 
Sport, of all people. Great Beater, of course, but hardly a ministry 
man !

KMcC: Well, now Ludo's disappeared as well as Hamish, I suppose its 
alright to talk about it. They were both involved in some huge match-
fixing syndicate run by the goblins. When things got too hot for 
Hamish, and he had to resign, he made sure Ludo got the job so they 
could carry on the scam. Roddy Pontner was in it with them, placing 
stupid bets that tempted other people to have a go.(8) I don't know 
who actually nobbled the players, but I do know they went too far one 
year when Dai Llewellyn got killed rather than give in to their 
intimidation.(9) There's still a lot of it going on even though the 
pair of them have done a runner(10). 

TT: Was there any involvement from the Dark Side in all this ?

KMcC: I think so ? they take a cut from most scams that go on. It's 
the same in the music industry.

TT: Really ?! What can you tell us about that ? You're a fan of the 
singer Stubby Boardman aren't you, alias the Death Eater, Sirius 
Black ?(11) Do you know if he was involved in any scams ?

KMcC: Well, from what I can gather, he was a gambler all right, but 
not for money. He was rich, didn't have to work
 drove around on a 
ruddy great motorcycle, had his own place.(12) Witches adored him.
(13) His band was crap though ? people used to throw things at them 
when they played !(14) When we were forming our band we knew what not 
to do!(15)

TT: I have to declare an interest here, he's a sort of cousin of 
mine, by marriage.

KMcC: Then you'd know how wild he was ? but he'd do anything for his 
friends. I heard he was really worried about his brother, Regulus, 
and that minister's kid Regulus used to hang out with, Barty Crouch. 
They were both into Dark Magic up to their necks. When Regulus was 
murdered, Sirius was very angry. He was determined to find out who'd 
done it. Lots of his friends thought he was getting obsessed and too 
close to the Death Eaters for his own good.(16)

TT: Is that why he used the Stubby Boardman name half the time?

KMcC: Well, it was good cover for investigations, but, in any case, 
wouldn't you try to distance yourself from a family who had stuffed 
house-elves heads on the walls ? oh, sorry.. no offence meant!

TT: None taken, I've never been on speaking terms with my wife's 
family. 

KMcC: The two identities came in useful sometimes. I was only 10 when 
it all happened, but from what I've heard since then, I think he was 
getting pretty close to Regulus's killers when he got arrested. From 
what I can make out, he was hot on their trail the night his mate 
James was blown to pieces, but you can imagine how much that terrible 
killing would have devastated him. Apparently, James Potter was 
closer to him than anyone. After he saw the ruins of their house, he 
set off straightaway after the people who did it, but ended up 
exhausted somewhere near where this woman, Doris whats-her name, 
lived. She saw him in the street and thought he'd come to see her at 
long last (a bit of a groupie I think). Anyway, he collapsed at her 
place for a few hours, trying to pull himself together, and then set 
off again(17). Well, we all know what happened the next day. She 
didn't realise for years that they were the same man.

TT: You seem to know a lot about Sirius, why have you followed the 
case so closely?

KMcC:  Well, he had a relationship with a friend of my mother's. We 
saw quite a lot of him when I was a child. I guess I sort of hero-
worshipped him.. I couldn't believe it when he got carted off to 
Azkaban and I've tried to find out what happened.

TT:  Oh...we have just received an urgent owl from someone called 
Agatha Chubb(18), who is some kind of Quidditch history expert.. 
she's very interested in what you can remember of Hamish MacFarlan, 
as all her efforts to uncover what happened at the ministry have been 
blocked. She wants to know if MacFarlan or your mother ever 
mentioned, or introduced you to someone called Scrimgeour?

KMcC: Yeah, Brutus Scrimgeour often came to my mother's parties ? she 
really liked him, and actually she's named after one of his clan(19); 
well, you know what Scots are like ? blood thicker than water. He's 
the Editor of the Beater's Bible.(20) I think either he or his son 
works at the Ministry.(21) I remember an awful dinner where he went 
on and on about the first rule in his book `take out the seeker'.(22) 
He sounded as though he really had it in for anyone who played that 
position; sad really, why don't these people get a life? He and Ludo 
Bagman were pretty close.

TT: Agatha seems to think that there is a secret international terror 
organisation linking high ranking government figures and top 
Quidditch players and officials across the world. Have you heard 
anything about that?

KMcC: Only rumours, like everyone else, but I'm right out of my depth 
here.. this is exactly why I play in a band, not chase a snitch.

TT: But you must pick up a lot, being on the road between gigs, 
staying in different places all the time?

KMcC: You learn when to keep your mouth shut. Do you think Celestina 
Warbeck is doing that cover version of the Puddlemere United anthem 
because she wants to ? I mean, at her age, thumping out Quidditch 
chants?(23) Ok, so all the proceeds go to St Mungo's, but look at the 
publicity the club will get! I've heard that the Malfoys have shares 
in the team and made her to do it or they'd reveal her past affairs 
with known Death Eaters
St Mungo's were forced to name that ward 
after Dai(24) as part of the same cover up. The donations are all 
hush money.

TT: Ahem, allegedly, allegedly.. remember who I'm standing in for 
this afternoon !

TT: Another owl has just come in.. bit of a sad one this, from a 
friend of a Madam Marsh, doesn't give an address(25). Seems Madam 
Marsh lost her home in Abergavenny because of the gambling syndicate 
you mentioned. Apparently, her business partner, Agatha Timms(26) got 
caught up in it, and eventually lost them their eel farm. Madam Marsh 
had half shares in the farm, but they lost the lot, and now Madam 
Marsh is an alcoholic, living in a pub in the middle of nowhere. Her 
friend says its shocking, seeing an old woman like that worse for the 
wear on public transport all the time.

KMcC: Its extremely sad when you hear these stories. Unfortunately 
crime and Quidditch seem to have gone hand in hand down the 
centuries. 

TT: So, lets get back to your life, Kirley ?  what does the future 
hold for you and the band? Your bass player, Donaghan got married 
recently(27) - will that affect the dynamics of the group at all?

KMcC: Well, ironically its yet another Quidditch connection. He 
follows the Kenmare Kestrals, an Irish team, and got pretty close to 
one of their players who plays chaser in the national side after the 
last world cup.(28) I hope it works out for both of them, but I'm 
gloomy about the band having to play at endless Quidditch parties. 
Personally, I'd like to move on, maybe teach guitar instead.
TT: Ladies, you heard it here first! Kirley might be leaving the 
band ! Are you serious about this ?

KMcC: Yeah, I've taken a few soundings. The headmaster at Hogwarts 
was very supportive when I spoke to him about it a year or so ago 
(29). We played at the school Christmas ball as a favour to him - we 
don't usually do kid's discos, but he wouldn't take no for an answer. 
He insisted we sit down afterwards and I really bared my heart to him 
about all this frightening stuff my family had got into. He was very 
interested.. particularly about Bagman.

TT: Have you spoken to him since ? I'm sure he could get you a 
teaching job somewhere.

KMcC: Well, funny thing is, I saw him earlier this year, must have 
been April.. sometime before Easter anyway. We were having a few 
beers in the Hog's Head, and I wouldn't have known it was him if I 
hadn't looked properly. Just sitting there, wrapped in a travelling 
cloak talking to another teacher from the school ? one I used to 
know, Professor Egg(30); taught us muggle studies. Clapped me on the 
shoulder and said I must come and talk to him again soon, but the 
barman suddenly whispered something to him, and he disapparated PDQ.

TT: Uh..oh, I think this is a howler coming in..better clear the 
studio quick..

[Howler] KIRLEY MCCORMACH HOW DARE YOU DISCUSS OUR FAMILY ON A PUBLIC 
RADIO SHOW ! HAMISH WAS A SECOND FATHER TO YOU AND YOUR SISTER. I AM 
MORTIFIED..DON'T YOU EVER DARE SHOW UP HERE WITH YOUR DIRTY WASHING 
AGAIN.

TT: Um, right. I think we'll finish there for today..oh, no, duck.. 
here comes another..

[Howler] TED TONKS WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK YOU ARE TAKING OVER MY 
RADIO SHOW AND SUGGESTING I TAKE BRIBES ! WE ALL KNOW WHY YOU AND 
ANDROMEDA HAD TO GET MARRIED IN A HURRY! 

KMcC: Ted, are we off-air now..you fancy a beer? There's a lot of 
other stuff I'd like your take on, especially about Sirius



Carolyn
With thanks to Kneasy for getting RadioTBay on air again, and 
trusting this rambling sweeping up of loose ends will in no way 
impede the incredibly serious political interviews he has planned.
**************************************************************
Unbelievable number of REFERENCES..in case you thought I made 
anything up (all to UK editions)

(1) No canon for him being a presenter on the Witching Hour, BUT 
there was a muggle TV newsreader called Ted in PS (p.10), and 
Nymphadora Tonks' father is called Ted, and is described as `muggle-
born' (OOP, p.50 & p.105). It is possible that the Ted's are one and 
the same person, working in the muggle and WW world's TV and radio. 
He is also described as `a right old slob' by Tonks, and this sounds 
like many journalists I have known !
(2)CS, p.31 `And unless Harry's ears were deceiving him, the old 
radio next to the sink had just announced that coming up 
was `Witching Hour, with the popular singing sorceress, Celestina 
Warbeck'.
(3)QA, p.36. Kirley is apparently the son of Catriona McCormack, the 
famous chaser for the Pride of Portree quidditch team in the 1960s. 
The Chocolate Frog cards say his middle name is Duke.
(4)None of the names appear to be female names on the Chocolate Frog 
cards.
(5)GOF, p.365. `they were all extremely hairy, and dressed in black 
robes that had been artfully ripped and torn.
(6)QA, p.36. Catriona's daughter, and his sister, Meaghan currently 
plays keeper for the Pride of Portree team.
(7)QA, p.35. Hamish MacFarlan was captain of the Montrose Magpies 
from 1957-68, and subsequently an `illustrious' Minister for Games & 
Sport. He could have been the Minister before Bagman.
(8)GOF, p.81. Pontner bet that Bulgaria would score first, despite 
Ireland's strong team.
(9)QA, p.33.
(10) OOP, p.175. Judging by the Quibbler's report on how the Tutshill 
Tornadoes were winning the Quidditch league. Ron certainly isn't 
impressed with their tactics, but they are rapidly gaining supporters 
(OOP, p.208)
(11) OOP, p. 174. Mrs Doris Purkiss wrote to the Scribbler claiming 
she spent the evening of 31st October 1981 with Sirius Black, who was 
really Stubby Boardman, former lead singer with The Hobgoblins. 
(12) OOP, p.104. His Uncle Alphard had left him `a decent bit of 
gold'. In POA (p.277/8) he invites Harry to live with him, implying 
he has his own home somewhere.
(13) OOP, p.565. `Sirius was lounging in his chair at his ease, 
tilting it back on two legs. He was very good-looking
.a girl sitting 
behind him was eying him hopefully, although he didn't seem to have 
noticed.' 
(14)OOP, p.174. Doris Purkiss says Stubby retired from public life 
after being struck on the ear by a turnip at a concert in Little 
Norton Church Hall `nearly 15 years ago' ? ie, autumn 1980 (the year 
before James & Lily were killed).
(15) Most of the Weird Sisters were born in the early 70s according 
to the Chocolate Frog cards. Sirius appears to be in his early 30s in 
POA (which is set in 1993), and therefore he was born sometime in the 
early 60s.
(16) POA, pl.273 Remus says to Sirius: `And will you, in turn, 
forgive me for believing you were the spy?'
(17) The Lexicon insists that the Potters were killed `close to 
midnight' on the 31st October 1981. There is no confirmation for this 
in the books. It could have been any time that evening. Hagrid merely 
states that Sirius turned up after he arrived at the ruined house to 
collect Harry, and after arguing with Hagrid that he should be the 
one to look after Harry as his godparent, Sirius lent Hagrid his 
motorbike and they parted company.
(18)QA, p.22. An expert in ancient Wizarding artefacts, especially 
bludgers.
(19) Catriona Scrimgeour is one of the editors of the Scottish clan 
Scrimgeour website (www.scrimgeour-edin.freeserve.co.uk ). 
(20)QA, quotes on reverse of title page.
(21)OOP, p.113.
(22)QA, p.27
(23)QA, p.36; the Chocolate Frogs cards say she was born in 1917, 
making her 78 in OOP.
(24)OOP, p.430.
(25) Mentioned twice. In  POA, p.32 ? she was on the Knight Bus that 
Harry took to Diagon Alley, and got off at Abergavenny; and in OOP, 
p.465 ? she is on the Knight Bus on the way back to Hogwarts after 
Christmas and gets off at an unknown location near a pub. On both 
trips she is ill.
(26)GOF, p.81? she put up half-shares in her eel farm on a week-long 
World Cup match.
(27)OOP, p.257
(28)The Chocolate Frog cards say he's called Donaghan Tremlett, and 
follows the Kenmare Kestrals. His new wife could be either Mullet or 
Moran; both were female chasers on the Irish national team at the QWC 
in GOF.
(29)GOF, p.341. It was Dumbledore who personally booked the Weird 
Sisters.
(30) FBWTFT, p.xvii. Professor Mordicus Egg, author of `The 
Philosophy of the Mundane ? Why the Muggles Prefer Not to Know' (Dust 
& Mildewe 1963). Well, we don't know who teaches muggle studies..its 
a possibility ! The (relatively few) followers of the Vauxhall Rd 
thread (before Xmas) will know that I believe muggle relations at the 
highest level to be central to the story. Dumbledore is one of the 
few WW readers of muggle newspapers..and confers with Prof Egg 
frequently, IMO, natch.





From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 27 01:03:26 2004
From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (Ms Mo Me)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 17:03:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Here's a Crazy thought...
In-Reply-To: <1080315718.22084.78106.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040327010326.28273.qmail@web13506.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94120

Okay, I was reading all these posts, and suddenly the
thought entered my head.

It is mentioned throughout the books through
conversations between Ron and Hermione when Ron is
accusing Snape of being evil, Hermione always says
something of the sort that "Dumbledore trusts Snape,
so should we," or conversation about what WAS it that
Snape did that makes DD trust him so much after being
a DE.

Well, here's a thought, albeit a crazy one.  There has
been numerous discussion about how did DD find out
about HP's mom saving his life before HP told him;
someone else had to be at Godric's Hollow that
evening, etc.  
Well, what if Snape was there and was involved in
saving Harry?  What if it was Snape that brought about
LV downfall? (Sort of a countercharm INCLUDING all
three Snape, HP, and Lily.)
Then, that WOULD make certain that Snape was the "one
who left forever"

And, how about this too... 
Snape was always a member of the order and he went
undercover on DD's orders and purposely became a DE
JUST so he could get on the inside.  Basically, he was
the member who risked the most out of any of them. 
So, he was NEVER a REAL DE, but just posing as one all
along, doing the most dirty work.. ???

What do you guys think?
Any other theories, additions???

Feel free to fire away, because even I think this is
the most crazy theory I have come up with yet.

~Mo




__________________________________
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From melclaros at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 27 01:11:51 2004
From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 01:11:51 -0000
Subject: Evaluating Snape (was: Re: Lupin's resentment )
In-Reply-To: <c42j5d+df8t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c42kcn+4dfr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94121

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" 
<susiequsie23 at s...> wrote:
 
> 
> Let's call it GRADE ABUSE.  Think of those times when Snape is not 
> only snarly or acidic or sarcastic in his comments towards Harry, 
> but when he **totally unfairly**--with no foundation--gives Harry 
a 
> zero on the day's potion.  At least twice that I can think of 
Harry 
> was given a zero when he either flat-out didn't deserve the zero 
or 
> someone *else* [was it Draco?] caused the potion flask to be 
> broken.  And IIRC, comments are made throughout the books which 
> imply that Snape *routinely* gives Harry unwarranted zeros and 
> delights in doing so.  
> 
> If Harry were a poor enough student to routinely deserve zeros, 
that 
> would be one thing.  


Routinely? Where in canon does it say that Harry *routinely* 
receives zeros? In the course of FIVE books we have seen VERY FEW 
potions lessons and the ones we HAVE seen we've been allowed to peek 
in on because of some special reason. In *every single* one of those 
lessons (even the one in which SNAPE HIMSELF breaks Harry's sample 
flask) Harry has screwed up his potion due to carelessness,  
inattentiveness or nosiness. Potions is an exacting and dangerous 
science. From what we've seen, over the past FIVE years of Harry's 
schooling, he's obviously done well enough to be permitted to carry 
on to the next level.
I'm far more able to understand those who accuse Snape of 
psychological abuse (JKR herself, I believe, means to portray this) 
and even physical abuse (after the pensieve incident) than anyone 
who accuses Snape of--what did you call it? "Grade abuse"? Carol has 
already made an argument against the unfounded claims that he favors 
Draco (in grading). Likewise there is NO canon evidence that Snape 
has "routinely" given Harry zeros. 

Mel




From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net  Sat Mar 27 01:16:47 2004
From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 19:16:47 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Here's a Crazy thought...
References: <20040327010326.28273.qmail@web13506.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <004a01c41399$2cf82340$05030f04@dslverizon.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 94122

{mo}

Well, here's a thought, albeit a crazy one.  There has
been numerous discussion about how did DD find out
about HP's mom saving his life before HP told him;
someone else had to be at Godric's Hollow that
evening, etc.
Well, what if Snape was there and was involved in
saving Harry?  What if it was Snape that brought about
LV downfall? (Sort of a countercharm INCLUDING all
three Snape, HP, and Lily.)
Then, that WOULD make certain that Snape was the "one
who left forever"

{Silverthorne}

Actaully, I can see something like this--I'm not sure he would have helped
in Lily's charm. (The indications seem to point to a situation where Lily
was on her onw by then)..but he might have been the first on the scene
(perhaps accompanying Voldemort in his dutiful role as 'faithful DE'--went
to do something else while Voldy 'took care' of Lily and Harry, or perhaps
followed and was part of the mop-up.)

{Mo}

And, how about this too...
Snape was always a member of the order and he went
undercover on DD's orders and purposely became a DE
JUST so he could get on the inside.  Basically, he was
the member who risked the most out of any of them.
So, he was NEVER a REAL DE, but just posing as one all
along, doing the most dirty work.. ???

{Silverthorne}

Again, nice thought, but DD imdicates he really *was* a DE that turned away
from that path....


Anne






From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sat Mar 27 01:16:08 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 01:16:08 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c42h97+2d85@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c42kko+25b8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94123

Nora:
> I wouldn't go that far. :)  Behaving as he does to Lupin in front
of 
> his class is a really big no-no for a teacher.  You have a 
>problem  with someone's teaching methods, you take it up with 
>them privately-- you don't air it in front of the class.  Very 
>unprofessional.

As unprofessional as encouraging one of your students to 
conjure a fellow teacher in drag? Don't tell me there wasn't any 
other way to handle the situation. I'm sure if Neville's worst fear 
had been Harry or McGonagall, Lupin would have thought of 
something. 

There are other instances of unprofessional conduct from Lupin: 
not preparing a record of the topics covered for Snape, not 
turning in the Marauder's Map, not telling Dumbledore about 
Sirius's animagus ability and his knowledge of secret entrances, 
and not taking his potion. 

We've had the misfortune to view Snape mostly through Harry's 
eyes. If we'd been looking from Draco's POV instead, we might 
think he was an old softie, perish the thought!

Pippin






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 27 01:20:42 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 01:20:42 -0000
Subject: Fields of Magic (was Re: Potions Master Question)
In-Reply-To: <c41ff4+fem3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c42kta+26li@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94124

> Neri:
> OK, I'm not going to get into an argument with all the Snape's fans 
> without any specific canon to back me up. But regarding the status of 
> Potions, what do you think are the chances that a man in his early 
> twenties, without any previous teaching experience as far as we know, 
> would be hired to teach one of the two most prestigious fields in 
> Hogwarts? Talented as he may be. <snip>


Carol:
I think Snape's hiring is a special arrangement rather like the one he
made for Trelawney, with the difference being that Snape was a young
and inexperienced ex-DE rather than an incompetent old fraud who had
once spouted a prophecy. We know that Snape was already spying for
Dumbledore at the time he was hired. We also know that DD trusts Snape
and that hiring him to teach Potions (whether or not he initially
applied for the DADA position) constitutes a "second chance"
(Crouch!Moody's term, but Snape didn't argue with it). He's almost
certainly a protected person like Trelawney, Hagrid, and possibly
Filch. However, he's also extremely intelligent and knowledgeable, so
he was given a teaching position rather than a caretaker or gamekeeper
post--though apparently not the one he applied for.

As I said in a different thread, he probably told LV he wanted to
apply for the open position (I think it was DADA) at Hogwarts in order
to spy on DD. His excellent scores on his OWLs and NEWTs (canon for
that is his long, excruciatingly detailed response to the DADA OWL
exam) would have given him the necessary credentials. He would have
explained to DD why he was applying to teach the course--to appear to
be spying on DD but really to get away from the Death Eaters, whom he
had already rejected--why we don't know. DD must have considered this
an excellent plan, but decided to try out this very young and
inexperienced teacher (also, of course, a recently reformed DE) on
Potions rather than DADA.

Snape (IMO) did such a good job there (despite his sarcasm, his
students learn what he teaches) that DD has left him there for
fourteen years, also giving him the prestigious position of Head of
Slytherin House. (It's possible, though, that he was the only former
Slytherin teaching at Hogwarts, in which case the honor would have
gone to him by default.) His current role as DD's righthand man was
probably earned by proving himself worth of DD's trust. Compared with
the other teachers, he's still young, but there's a big difference
between 22 and 37 or 38.

There is, of course, a lot we don't know--why he joined the DEs in the
first place (a craving for recognition and approval?); why he
(secretly) left them before becoming a spy; and why DD trusted him
enough to give him a teaching position rather than leaving him as a
spy. Obviously we'll have to wait for JKR to answer those particular
questions.

Carol




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 27 01:56:27 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 01:56:27 -0000
Subject: Prophecy Problems (WAS: why are prophecies stored in glass orbs??)
In-Reply-To: <c41e9n+3o1d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c42n0b+l9am@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94125

Kathleen:
> My biggest problem about the prophecy is this:
> 
> If the motive of the Order of the Phoenix was to keep the record of 
> the prophecy away from Voldemort, and Dumbledore already knew what
it said, why didn't the Order of the Pheonix just destroy it? Instead
of  risking their lives protecting it, why didn't they just destroy it 
> the same way Harry and company smashed all the other prophecies on 
> that row?

Carol:
I don't have an answer to that question unless it's that the Order
members have moral and legal reservations about breaking and entering.
I personally think it's a shame the other prophecies were destroyed,
so my concerns are from the opposite perspective: 

How can a prophecy be placed in an orb in the first place? 

Can a duplicate of the Harry/LV prophecy be created from Dumbledore's
Pensieve? 

What about all the other shattered prophecies? How can they ever be
replaced or restored? Are there no parchment records of what was said? 

Surely the prophecies are regarded as important or they wouldn't have
a room to themselves in the Department of Mysteries. Why weren't they
better guarded? IMO Eric Munch, the security wizard, is about as
useful as Stan Shunpike. To be captured by him, Sturgis Podmore must
have been *trying* to be caught.

Carol




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 27 02:05:24 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 02:05:24 -0000
Subject: Lets ask the kids (was getting anything right)
In-Reply-To: <c41i84+8no2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c42nh4+b4d2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94126

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at m...>
wrote:
> x
> > 
> > 
> > Susan [chortling, because many of you know how I feel about Snape, 
> > especially Rickman!Snape]:
> > 
> > The first thing which came to my mind was my 7-year-old daughter's 
> > comment last night.  We were watching the new PoA trailer and I 
> > (having watched it a mere 30 or so times before this) was 
> > saying "Turn to page 394" along w/ Rickman!Snape.  I laughed and 
> > said, "Isn't that great?"  Kristen looked at me like I was nuts and 
> > said, "Snape's MEAN."
> > 
> > Siriusly Snapey Susan...who knows on one level her daughter is 
> > correct but who hopes on the level that *matters* that her daughter 
> > is wrong.
> 
> Potioncat:
> Dito for for the signature comment.
> My 14 year old daughter watches horror movies that I won't even let 
> her tell me the plot of because they would give me nightmares.  She 
> says the scariest scene she has ever seen in any movie is the scene 
> in SS/PS where Snape quietly walks up on the trio and says "Good 
> afternoon."
> 
> The way this fits into canon is that Snape is very very frightening 
> to children.  which is why I think JKR is surprised that he has so 
> many fans.  It is supposed to be a big surprise when he turns out to 
> be the good guy.
> Potioncat

In contrast, how about a ten-year-old boy whose reaction to the
trailer scene where Rickman!Snape spreads his arms to (presumably)
protect the kids from the werewolf: "Snape's getting nicer in each
movie, isn't he?" (I guess he forgot that the book's version of that
incident isn't quite the same.) From the same little font of wisdom,
regarding GoF: "We know Harry doesn't die in this book because his
name's in the title of the next one."

Carol 




From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 27 02:29:03 2004
From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (Ms Mo Me)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 18:29:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: "Eyes are the window of the soul"
In-Reply-To: <1080315718.22084.78106.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040327022903.40107.qmail@web13506.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94127

Okay, I have been doing some more pondering and
theorizing.

We know that HP has Lily's eyes and that they are
significant throughout the series.  
Well, "Eyes are the window of the soul,"  So, is it
possibly that HP has his mother's soul and that is
what saved him?

I appologise if this idea has been posted before.

~Mo

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html



From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 27 02:38:26 2004
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 02:38:26 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <002401c41381$bd9b5880$05030f04@dslverizon.net>
Message-ID: <c42pf2+ucp2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94128

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Silverthorne" 
<silverthorne.dragon at v...> wrote:
> 
> {Kneasy:}
> They've got it wrong -  we're having the time of our lives and it's 
none of
> their damn business how I or you or him next door conduct our lives.
> Just because Snape acts like a wolverine does not necessarily 
indicate
> unhappiness. Even wolverines can be happy.
> 
> 
> {Silverthorne:}
> And Wolverines also have thier own form of love (mostly to do with 
being
> solitary and perhaps one mate they can tolerate just long enough to 
make
> more wolverines with, but hey...:P). We are in agreement, whether 
you care
> to admit it or not. ^^ I don't demand that Snape change, I demand 
that other
> people take a good hard look at why he is the way he is and then 
realize
> that what they hate so much in him is reflected in the other, more 
popular
> characters in many ways. Therefore they might want to reconsider 
*why* they
> find it so abhorent in him and not the others...and usually, if 
they're
> taking an *honest* look, they'll find its because they can overlook 
those
> same faults in the other characters because they 'understand them 
better' or
> 'relate to them better'. In other words, the packaging is far more
> attractive to them, so they're more willing to give benefit of the 
doubt.
> Pretty one sided, especially for a generation and society that is 
priding
> itself on becoming more 'advanced' in its treatment of its fellow 
human
> beings.
> 
>


I am puzzled. I honestly am.

I think I mentioned to you once that our attitudes to the literary 
characters do not necessarily or not at all reflect the way we would 
treat RL people with similar qualities (although if my child would 
ever have a teacher like Snape, I would not promise a very nice 
treatment of such teacher. :o))


It is stating the obvious, but the characters are not fellow human 
beings. :o) If I want to be less forgiving to them, I can. If I want 
to like one more than another simply because my heart tells me so, I 
can, even if those two definitely share alot of negative traits.

Packaging is more attractive? How did JKR called Harry in one of her 
interviews? An "old soul". If this is what you mean by attractive 
packaging, then yes, definitely he is my favourite due to  that.


> {Silverthorne}
> I'm not complaining about him being an ass, I just beleive there's 
more to
> him than his villianous ways, as you would put it. ;). I have no 
doubt he
> will never be one of the characters meant to be 'liked'...whatever 
happens
> to him will have most of the audience probably relieved because he 
will be
> *gone*, no matter what removes him from play.
>


I used to believe that there are more to him than shows the eye. I 
was intrigued by him since book 1.


Here I thought - a grumpy teacher, who had a sense of honor to save 
the child of his school enemy.

My heart went out to him and Sirius in PoA.

I cheered when Snape showed his Dark Mark to Fudge in GoF and for the 
first time actually supported Harry. Here I thought - change o 
attitude is coming for him.


Yeah, right. I don't know when I  will be able tof orgive Snape 
stopping Occlumency, unless Dumbledore knew about it.

Actually, no. He was entitled to his rage, he really was, but I 
expected him to use his bullying skills for a good purpose for once 
and make Harry to come back.


What did Harry feel after pensieve scene? compassion for Snape. He 
did not give the boy a  chance to apologise.


Never mind.


You never know, what book 6 brings.


Alla






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 27 02:40:31 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 02:40:31 -0000
Subject: Prophecy Problems (WAS: why are prophecies stored in glass orbs??)
In-Reply-To: <c41m7f+i1qc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c42piv+gaqv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94129

Lilian:
<snip[> I rather wonder what kind of story was cooked up for the MoM
to explain the attack on mr. Weasley, more specifically the place
where they found him.

> Ginger:
><snip>
> I don't think any explaination was necessary for Arthur's presence
at the MoM that night.  Remember when DD sent Everard to raise the 
> alarm?  He told him to be sure that Arthur was found "by the right 
> people".  I would assume that this means that the Order has people
in the Ministry who could get Arthur out of there, clean up the mess, 
> and have no one else the wiser.
> 
> Dilys was sent on to St. Mungo's.  I'm sure she found the "right" 
> people too.  Ones that would be trustworthy to tell the story to, or 
> at least would ask no uncomfortable questions. <snip>

Carol:
I like Ginger's explanation, which I confess I hadn't thought of, but
probably the fact that Arthur was a Ministry employee was also helpful
in explaining his presence there--just getting some extra work done at
night away from the wife and kids. It would have been much more
difficult to explain why, say, Mundungus Fletcher was there or how he
got in. OTOH, it would still have been handy to have "the right
people" find Mr. Weasley so they wouldn't have to explain what he was
doing in the wrong department wearing an invisibility cloak. As for
how the "dirty great snake" got in--lax security on the MoM's part?

Carol, who thinks that Bode's name boded ill for him and wonders
whether his fellow "Unspeakable," Croaker, is also destined to, um,
meet his fate in the next book or two




From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Sat Mar 27 02:51:17 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 02:51:17 -0000
Subject: The immensely complex Homorphus Charm
In-Reply-To: <c42ik7+h0e1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c42q75+eing@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94130

Carol Wrote:
<Snip> 
As long as we're on the topic of werewolf!Lupin, I find it odd that
the WW regards werewolves as half-human. When JKR stated in the chat
that Lupin was a half-blood, she apparently meant one witch or wizard
parent and one Muggle parent (like Seamus) or Muggle-born parent (like
Harry), not one human and one nonhuman (or half-human) parent. Also
we're told that he was bitten as a child, not born to a werewolf 
parent. 
 
But his name seems to suggest otherwise--that his father (Romulus J.
Lupin, maybe?) was a werewolf. So maybe Remus's Muggle-born mother
married his pureblood, secretly werewolf father, and his father (in
his werewolf phase) bit Remus when he was a little boy. Then it would
all fit together, even, in a sense, the half-human (or part-human)
label. (Of course, there's always the question of how his werewolf
father got through school without a Whomping Willow and the Shrieking
Shack, but I don't want to get into that!).

Okay, I know it sounds like fanfic, which was not at all my intention.
All I'm wondering is whether anyone else thinks that the werewolf who
bit Remus Lupin *could* have been his own father, also named Lupin
("wolfish")?

Carol, who still wonders why Lupin had "Professor R. J. Lupin" on his
suitcase in peeling letters when the only wizarding school in Britain
is Hogwarts. Where else would he have been teaching? Beauxbatons and
urmstrang would never have hired him.

Sue Replies:

I had always believed "R.J." were the initals of another family 
member.  It is interesting to speculate who that might be.  My 
personal favorite is that it belonged to his mother, a professor of 
theology at Cambridge (speaking of fan fic...).  I feel very 
confident, as others have mentioned, that DD would cure Lupin if he 
could.  Another of my pet speculations is that Neville and Hermione 
will work together and find a cure.  She as an excellent researcher 
and he as a Herbology and Potions Master ;).

Sue




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 27 03:00:54 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 03:00:54 -0000
Subject: Snape and the Order
In-Reply-To: <c41nke+b11p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c42qp6+o1jo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94131

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "steffy07" <steffy07 at a...> wrote:
> This may have been discussed before, but I have a question...
> 
> In OOTP, if Snape is spying on LV for the Order (which I believe he 
> is), and the Deatheaters know he works at Hogwarts, shouldn't he be 
> expected to spy on Dumbley-Dore and Harry for LV?  Is he passing 
> false information to LV? If so, why hasn't he been discovered yet 
> by the DE and LV?  Wouldn't you be suspicious if all the information 
> a spy told you turned out to be false? <snip>

Carol:
Passing false information would be both stupid and fatal. I'm pretty
sure that he and Dumbledore decide just which information and how much
should be passed on to his contacts. I think he primarily exchanges
information with Malfoy during Christmas break and the summer holiday.
He clearly had recently talked to Malfoy when he informs Sirius in OoP
(not without a little sadistic pleasure in the effect of his words)
that Malfoy had seen Sirius in dog form on Platform 9 3/4. Snape could
tell Malfoy that Karkaroff had fled after the Tri-Wizard Tournament,
for example, or partial truths that Malfoy could act on prematurely
(as LV did with the partially overheard prophecy). It's a dangerous
game, but Snape is cunning and knows Malfoy well. He can also conceal
his own emotions when he chooses--and extract information from Malfoy
on the pretext of keeping up with developments. At any rate, I'm
certain that he reports the entire conversation to Dumbledore--or even
extracts the memory from his mind so they can watch it together in the
Pensieve.

Carol




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 27 03:21:49 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 03:21:49 -0000
Subject: Potions Master Question/ Viridis?
In-Reply-To: <c41s5u+s45c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c42s0d+755@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94132

-> The Sergeant Majorette wrote:
> 
> DD teaches transfiguration because he's good at teaching. Teaching 
> Potions is a piece of cake. You put the recipe on the board and then 
> walk around messing with their little heads while they brew. A blown 
> cauldron or three, some boils, some toxic vapor --eh. <snip>

I'm not sure that teaching Potions is a piece of cake. He has to know
all those potion recipes by heart (not to mention having the antidote
on hand, which he has to prepare in advance). He has to know where and
when each potion went wrong--why is Harry's blue and Neville's pink
when they're both supposed to be turquoise? Not to mention that he is
teaching at least six, possibly seven, levels of students (I don't
know whether the sixth and seventh years have NEWT Potions together),
so six or seven lesson plans, six or seven sets of homework (potions
or essays or both), not to mention the frustration of dealing with
"dunderheads" who melt their cauldrons and give each other boils. Not
a piece of cake in my view. Much easier to give them a mouse, tell
them the proper spell for vanishing it, insist that they concentrate,
and watch them for the rest of the hour. Oh, yes, there's homework,
too, but a Transfiguration teacher doesn't have to explain which step
was missed in vanishing all of the mouse but the tail.

Carol (who would end up teaching Muggle Studies if she were at Hogwarts)




From Ladycat16 at aol.com  Sat Mar 27 01:02:18 2004
From: Ladycat16 at aol.com (Ladycat16 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 20:02:18 EST
Subject: (Ship) Harry and Parvati...
Message-ID: <7a.53526bda.2d962c9a@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94133


Hello everyone. I realized that we have already discussed to some extent 
about who Harry's new "crush" interest is going to be. I never really said 
anything because I was rereading the books.

I just finished chapter 31 (O.W.L.S.) in OOTP, when he was having a hard time 
consentrating. When I read who he sitting behind, I went back to GoF the Yule 
Ball chapter and there came up with the same name, Parvati Patil.

I really didn't think they could bring in someone completely new for that 
part, but I figured JKR would want to bring in less major characters. Parvati has 
played enough of a character that she would be suitable.Yes I realize that 
she didn't have the best time with Harry at the Ball, but that can always 
change.

Another reason why I think she's going to be Harry's new interest is from the 
one thing that I read that stuck in my mind.

'He was sitting right behind Parvati Patil, whose long dark hair fell below 
the back of her chair. Once or twice he found himself staring at the tiny 
golden lights that glistened in its when she moved her head very slightly and had 
to give his own head a little shake to clear it.'    (From OOTP Ch. 31 pg. 725 
US version)

Tiffany


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 27 03:57:36 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 03:57:36 -0000
Subject: What happens to victim's body after the Dementor's kiss?
In-Reply-To: <c41vsg+eo8l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c42u3g+qkv1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94134

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" <ruminalus_ficus at y...>
wrote:
> happybean98 wrote:
> > This may seem like a trivial question, but I feel it may have some 
> > future significance. What exactly happens to the body of someone 
> > once they have been kissed by a Dementor?
> <snip>
> > Kathleen
> 
> The way I've always understood it is that their body continues to 
> live, but the person himself is gone.  So the body of Barty Crouch 
> is probably at St. Mungos or some other facility, where it is taken 
> care of as an animal would be.  The person, Barty Crouch (or 
> whomever it may be), no longer exists.  The consciousness of the 
> person is destroyed.
> 
> -RF

Carol:
Worse than consciousness. The *soul* of the person is destroyed. It's
clear from the existence of ghosts, from the Veil in the DoM, and from
the fact that JKR herself is a Christian that there's some sort of
afterlife for witches and wizards that may be different in some ways
from that of Muggles. At any rate, dead witches and wizards can
choose, as Nearly Headless Nick and Myrtle and the other ghosts have
done, not to pass into whatever lies beyond this earthly existence, or
they can enter what DD (I forget where) calls "the last great
adventure." So to lose your soul is worse than death because you can
never enter that other realm, never see your loved ones again.

Until the body of a soul-sucked person dies, he or she is apparently
something like a zombie--breathing, walking, perhaps eating and
drinking or even talking, but not living because they don't know who
or what they are. Possibly they're placed in a special ward in St.
Mungos's for the incurably mentally ill. Maybe they stop eating and
just die on their own. I don't know. But when their body dies, it's
not a passage into another world. It's the end of everything. There's
no afterlife to go to. Just--nothing.

Carol




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 27 04:12:53 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 04:12:53 -0000
Subject: They shoot horses don't they (was Horse Feathers)
In-Reply-To: <c423n5+hfj6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c42v05+n7aj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94135

-> Carolyn:
><snip> do you 
> suppose there are any muggle weapons that can hurt a wizard ? At the 
> risk of reviving the exciting topic of Vauxhall Rd..I am still 
> mystified that the whole of the WW seem not to have noticed WW2, or 
> indeed any other Muggle war.

Carol:
I've wondered the same thing. My guess is that a well-aimed bullet
would do about as much harm to a witch or wizard as, say, four
stunning spells to the chest. It would send you to St, Mungo's but it
wouldn't kill you.
Harry fell fifty feet from a broom and only broke his arm, Neville was
dropped from an upper story window and bounced down the hill, Hagrid
is incensed by the idea that James and Lily could be killed in a car
accident, a burned witch in the Middle Ages enjoyed the tickling
sensation, ad infinitum. So, I could be wrong, but I think that a gun
("a kind of wand that Muggles use to kill each other") wouldn't kill a
witch or wizard. They're evidently hardier than Muggles as well as
longer-lived. I'm not so sure about a bomb, though, or germ warfare.
They seem as prone as Muggles to colds and flu. Maybe there's some
sort of terrible potion (or as yet unidentified curse) that could set
off a plague in which wizards as well as Muggles would die.

Carol, with apologies for ending her post on such a grim note




From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 27 04:11:56 2004
From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 04:11:56 -0000
Subject: FILK: The Class of Gildy Lockhart
Message-ID: <c42uuc+5pne@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94136

Song #12 from my CoS musical, A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to 
the Chamber (four more to go)

The Class of Gildy Lockhart (CoS, Chap 6, 10 & 11)

To the tune of The House of Marcus Lycus, from Sondheim's A Funny 
Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum 

Dedicated to Amy z

NOTE: This filk is based on the original version of the song, which 
was dropped from the show during rehearsals. According to Jeffrey 
Lonoff, "the verbal detailing of the delights of Lycus' house 
competed with the very visual detailing performed in the courtesan's 
dance." The song does not appear at all on the 1964 original cast 
recording, and only in its greatly diminished revision on the 1996 
revival. Since I don't have any dancing courtesans at my disposal, I 
opted to go back teh hyper-verbal original. The long version is 
performed on "A Collector's Sondheim," and fortunately, a brief 
excerpt can be heard here (search "Collector's Sondheim", if this URL 
is too long to reproduce here)
 
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-
/B000002W8N/qid=1080357996/sr=1-65/ref=sr_1_65/102-4277107-8951344?
v=glance&s=music

THE SCENE: DADA Classroom. Enter Gilderoy Lockhart, Professor of 
Defense Against Dark Arts

LOCKHART (spoken, accompanied by slow jazzy music) Me. Gilderoy 
Lockhart, Order of Merlin, Third Class, Honorary Member of the Dark 
Force Defense League, and five-time winner of Witch Weekly's Most-
Charming-Smile Award - but I don't talk about that. I didn't get rid 
of the Bandon Banshee by smiling at her!

(music) Pure-blooded, blonde-headed, brave-hearted, cool
Fast-footed, hunk-featured, sharp-witted: drool!
Lilac is my very favorite hue
I warn evil ones to beware
But in secret dreams I want to brew
My own line of hair-care

.

(spoken) Now - be warned! It is my job to arm you against the foulest 
creatures known to wizardkind! You may find yourselves facing your 
worst fears in this room. Know only that no harm can befall you 
whilst I am here. All I ask is that you remain calm



(LOCKHART unveils a cage full of Pixies)

(music) So scary, so screechy, so vicious, so loud

HARRY & RON
So silly, so stupid, so shallow, so proud

LOCKHART:
Here's a horror that is all too grim
Cornish pixies in their rages
They may try to tear you limb from limb
When out of their cages

(LOCKHART opens the cage, then exits after failing to recapture them. 
The following verses are sung as the Pixies wreak havoc)

NEVILLE (overlapping with below, from the chandelier)
Pure-blooded, blonde-brain?d, faint-hearted tricks
Lead-footed, disfeatured, dull-witted shtik
Looks at all the things he claims to do
Babbles on and on the whole day
Live creatures in class are now taboo
Lockhart sticks to role-play

HERMIONE (overlapping with Neville above)
There's a really knight-in-armor dude
In the class of Gildy Lockhart.

HARRY & RON (overlapping with above)
There is really gross ineptitude
In the class of Gildy Lockhart.
Ask poor old Longbottom, he'll agree
That the man is ultra-dense
In the class of Gildy Lockhart,
DA Defense

(Segue to opening of Chap. 10, as HARRY is compelled to re-enact the 
saga of the Wagga)

LOCKHART (spoken): Nice loud howl, Harry - exactly - and then, if 
you'll believe it, I pounced - like this - slammed him to the floor - 
thus with one hand, I managed to hold him down - with my other, I put 
my wand to his throat -I then screwed up my remaining strength

.

(music) Subhuman, substantial subterfuge, such subversiveness 
Subjected, subduing, subsiding, sweet submissiveness
Oh, the villagers were sorely vexed
By all of the Wagga Wolf fuss
Till I used a spell highly complex
The Charm called Homorphus

(spoken) Homework - compose a poem about my defeat of the Wagga Wagga 
Werewolf! Signed copies of Magical Me to the author of the best one!

..but wait

 Professor Dumbledore has granted me permission to start 
a dueling club, to train you all in case you ever need to defend 
yourselves as I myself have done on countless occasions - for full 
details, see my published works.

(Segue to the first dueling club meeting, with LOCKHART, SNAPE & 
CHORUS OF STUDENTS in attendance)

(music) In combat, uncommon valor displayed
There's danger ? my wand's out ? the threat is stayed
When Expelliarmus is your spell
You're disabling and disarming

HARRY, RON & HERMIONE
Snape is seemingly as mad as hell
With fury he's storming

LOCKHART (simultaneous with below)
Fast-footed

There's danger 
.
Brave-hearted 

In combat 
.
Subduing 
.
There's danger 
.

SNAPE (simultaneous with above):
My hexes

Can handle
Dim Lockhart
I'll brain him
Just like that

CHORUS OF STUDENTS (joining in)
Let Expelliarmus be your spell
In the class of Gildy Lockhart.
Even though Snape may be mad as hell
In the class of Gildy Lockhart.
With his turquoise teratology
And preponderant pretense
. 
.
LOCKHART
Here's ability!

SNAPE: 
Here's stupidity!

LOCKHART
One man's brilliancy!

SNAPE: 
To the wall with thee!

ALL
In the class of Gildy Lockhart,
DA Defense!

LOCKHART
And need I add, as all of us who are of the house of Lockhart, I am 
well versed in the defensive arts, proficient at wandwork, and 
surprised at nothing



(The Unsurprised LOCKHART is blasted into the wall by SNAPE)

    -	CMC

HARRY POTTER FILKS 
http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm 





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sat Mar 27 04:41:46 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 04:41:46 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c42h97+2d85@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c430ma+snrb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94137

Nora wrote:
> 
> snip<
> 
> Lupin using Snape's first name, and Snape using Lupin's last name, 
> are double pronged.  On the one hand, it does have an element of 
> gentle provocation on Lupin's part, as I'm sure he knows Snape 
> doesn't care for it.  
snip
  In that light, Snape's 
> use of the last name is also something of a provocation, an 'I 
don't 
> consider you to be a colleague' and is, as such, somewhat 
insulting.


Potioncat:
I've always thought it was sad that the two people we've seen Snape 
call by first names are Igor who betrayed him and Draco who probably 
would too. (Although I had the impression that his use of Draco's 
name was a way of minipulating him.)

Along that line, in a general school setting, would it be the norm 
for some students to call each other by last names?  Or is that a 
way of showing dislike?

Potioncat




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sat Mar 27 04:46:30 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 04:46:30 -0000
Subject: Snape and Sirius (was: An inside to Snape's resentment)
In-Reply-To: <c42hap+g0jr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c430v6+2f04@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94138

snipping a very interesting post 

Marianne wrote: 
> Marianne, who's very first post years ago suggested, tongue in 
cheek, 
> that Severus and Sirius were fraternal twins separated at birth

Potioncat:
It was in the first reading of PoA I think, that I was very taken 
with how similar the discriptions of Snape and Black are.  It didn't 
seem as obvious in the later readings.  Right now I'm looking at it 
in OoP.  But I wonder if there is some family connection there.
Potioncat




From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Sat Mar 27 04:58:21 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 04:58:21 -0000
Subject: Snape outing Harry as Parselmouth (was Re: If DD knows, then why..?)
In-Reply-To: <c41gpa+4kdr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c431ld+blol@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94139

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" 
<susiequsie23 at s...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vaseemf" <vaseemf at y...> 
wrote:
> > As for the 2nd year serpensortia thing, I seem to agree with you. 
> > It is akin to conjuring, something that 5th years haven't 
reached. 
> > It was also a live animal (a vertebrate no less). I think it may 
> > have been a slight flint, because I doubt Malfoy is that skilled, 
> > esspecially when it doesnt seem as though he had practiced the 
> > spell thoroughly before he used it.
> 
> Susan:
> Oh, I'm not so sure he'd never practiced that spell before. ;-)  
> Remember how comfy Draco was on a broom?  I suspect that he & Daddy 
> spent a good bit of time in Draco's pre-Hogwarts life working on 
all 
> sorts of magic--especially dark spells.  If Snape really did 
whisper 
> the serpensortia suggestion to Draco, perhaps he did so because he 
> knew it was the kind of thing Lucius was likely to have taught dear 
> Draco.
> 
> Siriusly Snapey Susan

Just wanted to add one little tid bit here.  Malfoy was the head of 
Muggle torture for Voldemort the first time.  He truly gets a kick 
out of it.  What a "fun little game" to play with his young 
son..."Narcissa, we're off to the park to set snakes on the Muggles!  
See you in a few hours."  I bet Draco's known that one for a looong 
time.

Sue




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sat Mar 27 05:04:13 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 05:04:13 -0000
Subject: Evaluating Snape (was: Re: Lupin's resentment )
In-Reply-To: <c42j5d+df8t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4320d+ln9c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94140

 
> 
> Susan:
>x> 
> Let's call it GRADE ABUSE.  Think of those times when Snape is not 
> only snarly or acidic or sarcastic in his comments towards Harry, 
> but when he **totally unfairly**--with no foundation--gives Harry 
a 
> zero on the day's potion.  At least twice that I can think of 
Harry 
> was given a zero when he either flat-out didn't deserve the zero 
or 
> someone *else* [was it Draco?] caused the potion flask to be 
> broken.  And IIRC, comments are made throughout the books which 
> imply that Snape *routinely* gives Harry unwarranted zeros and 
> delights in doing so.  
> 
> x> 
> I know, I know.  Lots of the time I defend Snape and argue that he 
> is, overall, a good guy.  I also do believe he is extremely 
talented 
> as a potionmaker.  But when it comes to his teaching methods, I 
will 
> often argue that he is out of line.  This is part of the "not a 
nice 
> guy" even though he's a "good guy" in the fight against Voldy, I 
> guess.
> 


Potioncat:
I"m working from memory and I think it was GoF that the episodes you 
mention are found in.  I had the feeling that part of the time, 
Harry assumes he got a zero or thinks he sees Snape write a zero.  
Later he believes that DD made Snape adjust the grade to a passing 
score.

But I think Snape knew very well how Harry's potion turned out, 
whether he had a sample or not.  And I doubt DD had to make him 
change grades. He's already given him the appropriate one. (Not a 
zero.)  Snape certainly may have put on a show to make Harry seem 
even less capable than he is.  To paraphrase "No one who's seen you 
in my class would argue the need for remedial potions." Whether that 
is so the DE's will think badly of Harry or well of Snape, I'm not 
sure. (DE's getting the info from their own little ones at the 
school.)

It doesn't seem that he does anything to lower Hermione's grades, 
since she takes top marks in his class.  And Longbottom manages to 
pass as well.
Potioncat (who really ought to go to bed)




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 27 05:20:12 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 05:20:12 -0000
Subject: If DD knows, then why...? [was: Snape, trying very hard not to smile?]
In-Reply-To: <c42isr+bc7u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c432uc+hi6p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94141

-Carol wrote:
>  But maybe [Dumbledore] did ask [Myrtle] about her
> > death and she couldn't identify the boy whose voice she heard
> > (probably she didn't see Tom or even the basilisk itself--only 
> the deadly yellow eyes). That would confirm DD's suspicions that 
> a basilisk had petrified the students, but he still wouldn't have 
> had the proof he needed to implicate Tom and rescue Hagrid. <<
> 
Pippin responded:
> Neither FB nor Hermione's library book page reports that 
> basilisks have yellow eyes, probably because up to the time 
> Tom started using the  basilisk's glare to petrify 
> instead of kill, nobody had ever survived seeing it. So even if 
> Dumbledore questioned Myrtle and the victims of the other 
> attacks that Dippit mentioned, he wouldn't know that the yellow 
> eyed monster was   a basilisk.
<snip>
>  Dumbledore may have later guessed that the monster was a 
> basilisk using the same evidence (fleeing spiders and dead 
> roosters)  that Hermione did. Short of stationing crowing 
> roosters everywhere in the castle,  the information would be of 
> little use unless he could locate the entrance to the Chamber. I 
> do wonder if he thought that Harry might be a Parselmouth and 
> charged Snape with finding out. He wouldn't want to test Harry 
> himself because the whole subject of Harry's connection with 
> Voldemort is a very touchy one which Dumbledore is trying to 
> avoid.

Carol:
I wasn't thinking of the yellow eyes specifically but of a glance that
could kill or, if indirect, petrify. Short of the Gorgons of Greek
mythology, I'm not aware of any monsters with that sort of ability.
(But then I haven't read FBWF. Maybe it provides information about
other candidates for the monster in the Chamber.) Also I think DD
would have associated snakes with Salazar Slytherin. Put them
together--a snake with the ability to petrify--and you have a
basilisk. I agree that knowing there was a basilisk in the Chamber
would be of no use in locating the Chamber. So I think Dumbledore had
a strong suspicion that the monster was a basilisk and that Tom had
unleashed it (especially if he knew that Tom was a Parselmouth) but
had no way of proving that. He must then have assumed that
Tom/Voldemort had returned in some form to do it a second time. ("The
question is not 'who'. The question is 'how'.") If, as you and I
agree, DD had Snape test Harry to see if he could speak Parseltongue,
it could only have been because he knew or suspected that it was a
basilisk. Otherwise, the test makes no sense at all.

Sorry I had the "language" (Parseltongue) confused with a speaker of
the language (Parselmouth). I do, of course, know that a language is a
"tongue"--I just never made that connection until now.

Carol




From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net  Sat Mar 27 05:27:15 2004
From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 23:27:15 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
References: <c42pf2+ucp2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001b01c413bc$2a289aa0$05030f04@dslverizon.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 94142

{Alla}

I am puzzled. I honestly am.

I think I mentioned to you once that our attitudes to the literary
characters do not necessarily or not at all reflect the way we would treat
RL people with similar qualities (although if my child would ever have a
teacher like Snape, I would not promise a very nice treatment of such
teacher. :o))


{Silverthorne}

Yes you did, and if you cannot recognize that Kneasy and I are having a good
natured kabbitz with each other, that honestly has very little 'serious'
bite to it then I suspect you're taking yourself and your view a bit too
seriously when you read what I (or he) have to say. I am well aware that
these are literary characters, not real (and therefor it puzzles *me* when
you seem to defend Harry as if he were a real child and not the
'stereotyped' young hero that he is). Kneasy takes the 'evil Snape' stance
and does it well--but I seriously doubt he is the mean old codger he appears
to be on list (In other words, I am teasing him, as I do off list on the few
times we have spoken). A few private emails proves him to be intelligent and
very tolerant, in spite of his 'old codger from hell' personna on the board.
So...if the snipped quote you used is your argument for me 'taking it too
far and assuming that is the way he really is', then you might want to
consider that 'what you see' is not necassarily 'what you get' (The very
accusation you have thrown at me twice now).


{Alla}

It is stating the obvious, but the characters are not fellow human beings.
:o) If I want to be less forgiving to them, I can. If I want to like one
more than another simply because my heart tells me so, I can, even if those
two definitely share alot of negative traits.


{Silverthorne}
And yet I cannot? Alla, you seem to think that I'm directing all of this at
*you* specifically. I am not. I really really wish you would understand
that. If my remark about the 'let the fight begin' at the beginning  of my
first post gave you that impression, than I apologize. I was responding with
the good natured assumption that we both knew not to take this
seriously--just as a fun disagreement about our favorite characters since we
both know we're not likely to agree on most points.

Some people defend Snape, some Sirius, some Harry, some defend all or none
at all. I take Snape's side because until recently he was the most
'maligned' when it comes to who is right, wrong, or indifferent. I never
said you could NOT have your opinions--I only stated that I wished people
would give the same regards and respectful examination to all the
characters--use the same measuring stick and see beyond the surface of
things (something which is further colored by Harry-as-the-narrator). They
are what they are--what JKR wants them to be...and although some are less
'savory' then others at first glance, they are all still on the same side,
and they all have equally valid and invalid reasons for their behaivior.
Remember, one of the big themes is *choices*--why, how, and how it affects
all the characters. The other theme that comes up often is "All is not
necassarily as it seems". I apply *both* factors to all the characters as I
read--and my opinions of them change accordingly as I do so.

Just as 'child abuse' seems to set you off when you read the books, people
who are hypocritical in their treament of others sets me off. Snape may be
cruel, but he's consistant. Sirius, on the other hand, chooses his targets,
not necassarily on sound fact as to thier alignment, but rather in reaction
to his own personal likes and dislikes (which are not always dead on). Once
that became appearent, I lost respect for him. As a representative of the
'postive' in people, he skewed that all to hell in my view as soon as he
went after another kid for the simple reason that he was bored, and it made
it worse when he allowed himself to maintain that stance far into his adult
life. He could have chosen any number of other ways to deal with Snape in
school--they all could have, but they didn't. He could have let it go later
in life, but he didn't. As the 'positive' one of the Severus/Snape pair, he
should have, even if Snape couldn't. That is, in my opinion (which may not
match yours, and I know that), what a 'good guy' does, after all is said and
done. And perhaps he would have eventually if he hadn't died at the MoM.
Until then though, I am constantly left with the thought of "For god's sake,
Sirius. You're on the same side and grown up now. Let it rest." But he
couldn''t, and that does indeed color my opinion of him.


{Alla}
Packaging is more attractive? How did JKR called Harry in one of her
interviews? An "old soul". If this is what you mean by attractive packaging,
then yes, definitely he is my favourite due to  that.


{Silverthorne}
*Sigh* That's FINE, Alla, really it is. But at least let other people have
thier preferences in regards to characters and how they see them without
getting freaked out about it. Harry might be an 'old soul', but right now
he's acting as young as his current 15 years suggests he is. That doesn't
mean he won't improve as the final two books play out, but right now, he is
acting far less like  the 'Old Soul' Rowling says he is, and more like any
hurt, sulking and self righteous 15 year old does. By the same token, that
doesn't mean that *I* don't like him, just that, as in Sirius's case, I feel
he needs to adjust his view a little. As a good guy (child or not), it is
what will define him...and if he cannot get out of that funk, then he really
is no better then the people he hates and judges.

 As for attractive packaging--I was referring to what most people see--the
surface of things. In regards to Snape, that's all we have since Harry, as
narrator, does not try too terribly hard to see past that. It's normal, but
it is unfair, especially for a thinking audience to buy into. And again,
it's one of the themes that Rowling hints at--never assume that what you see
is really what you're getting. But, as I pointed out, since Snape is, on the
surface, a very unlikable personage, with appearently few redeemable
qualities (bad packaging), people will bash him long before they'll bash
Harry, or Sirius, or Lupin, or any of the other characters.


{Alla}

I used to believe that there are more to him than shows the eye. I was
intrigued by him since book 1.Here I thought - a grumpy teacher, who had a
sense of honor to save
the child of his school enemy.My heart went out to him and Sirius in PoA.I
cheered when Snape showed his Dark Mark to Fudge in GoF and for the first
time actually supported Harry. Here I thought - change of attitude is coming
for him.Yeah, right. I don't know when I  will be able tof orgive Snape
stopping Occlumency, unless Dumbledore knew about it.Actually, no. He was
entitled to his rage, he really was, but I expected him to use his bullying
skills for a good purpose for once and make Harry to come back.


{Silverthorne}
There's one problem with that, Alla. Harry would not have cooperated. He did
not the first time, and spent more time being angry at Snape than practicing
his lessons. He dwelled on it so badly that it completely undermined the few
efforts at occumancy he did attempt. Not to mention Snape's word just isn't
worth a damn to Harry, even before the whole Sirius thing. Therefore, it is
doubtful Harry would be willing for a second time around taking lessons with
Snape either (especially since he's convinced that everything bad that
happened in book 5 is all Snape's fault after all). And that *is* a flaw of
Harry's--once he's condemned, it *is* hard for him to forgive. Again,
normal, *human*, but it does make your conditional scenario a bit
impossible. And no, Snape did not make a huge, obvious, flowery change of
heart. But he's no more capable of turning on an emotional dime than Harry
is. If either change, it will happen over time, and with a lot of work
involved on *both* sides. And it will be up to Rowling at any rate as to
whether it will happen at all.

Still, small change is still better then nothing. And Snape *has* changed.
If he hadn't, I would be right along with Harry at the end of book 5 in
thinking Snape was nothing more than an irredeemable git. I could relist the
changes for you, but I think you know the litany by now, if not from me,
then other list members.

Harry has also changed, in both good *and* bad ways. Both will change more
as the story goes on, and I'm betting it will postive for both of them.


{Alla}
What did Harry feel after pensieve scene? compassion for Snape. He did not
give the boy a  chance to apologise.


{Silverthorne}
Okay, Fair enough...

Now, divorce yourself from it being *Snape's* memories that Harry mucked
around in. What if they had been yours? Think about it. I know he's a
fictional character, but seriously put yourself in Snape's shoes in this
scenario for a moment before you decide Snape's reaction was totally wrong
(and let's agree to lave out the 'but he could have fixed it later arguement
as well. Let's stay in the moment for now).

Harry is a young man who *should* know better than to go and do the
equivilent of read your diary. If it had been Hermione's, or Ron's, or even
Luna's, he would have refrained from doing it...and yet, here he is doing it
to *your* diary. Worse yet, he's snuck in while your back is turned to do
it, even though you and he both know he's on the honor system *not* to read
it while you go do whatever it was you went to do. Even worse, he's found
some of the worst moments in your life and is riffling through them
thoughtlessly (Harry is more interested in following his father around then
in realizing that he's messing with something personal and not meant for him
to see). You would not be mad at that point? You wouldn't want him to put
that diary down immediately and get out, even if only for a moment so you
can collect your thoughts at least, before you *really* go off half cocked
at the boy? Granted, I'll assume that you would not throw a jar of
cockroches (or have an equivically violent reaction)  at him as he exits the
room...you might even have the strength of will to call him back immediately
to work it out--but then, that would be you. Snape, due to his own
experiences, does not quite have that self control.

You as yourself would still be angry, though. And that was where Snape was.
He wasn't interested in an apology at that point, he wasn't thinking of "I
need to calmly impress on the boy that what he did was wrong, and at his age
he should know better"--what he was aware of was that someone had violated
his privacy. Someone who *should* know better, even though the two of them
don't get along. And that is where most people *would* have been if Harry
had done that to them. People that *don't* have that knee jerk reaction to
someone completely and desrespectfully going through thier things are rare
and far between. Dumbledore is capable of keeping his cool, maybe. Lupin,
perhaps. A sanctified saint, yes. Snape is none of these. Harry, if the
scene were reversed, would have faired no better in his reaction towards
Snape either, at least not at this point in his emotional development. And
that is really my main point when I compare Snape to Harry, or Sirius...if
the roles were reversed, the scene would have played about the same, with
few if any variations. And yet who gets most of the blame laid at his feet?
As the one whose things were rifled through, Snape is 'wrong' for having a
perfectly natural angry reaction. If he had been the one reading the diary,
he would have been the one at fault for reading it and getting Harry upset.
Thing is though, *both* of them, no matter who was in which role, are
equally at fault. So both should be equally taken to task for thier role, or
equally 'forgiven' for thier trangression.

Put yourself in Snape's shoes, even if you can't quite fathom (or approve
of) his extreme reactions. It's what we do for Harry when we feel sad for
him, or are glad he succeeded, or even when Snape is picking on him and we
all think 'Leave him alone, you obnoxious git'. It should be what we do for
*all* of the characters before we start taking sides. Again, it's one of the
things Rowling re-enforces, and it's one of the things I do my damndest to
remember when I read the series. I just ask that others do the same. ^^


{Alla}
You never know, what book 6 brings.

{Silverthorne}
No, we don't. But that won't keep me from having faith that Snape will
redeem himself, that he deserves at least a little credit for leaving the
DE, and that there's more to him than 'One Nasty Person'. He is a human
being...he has feelings, and he makes mistakes--ones that are more glaring
because he certianly doesn't have a handle on the 'proper' way to deal with
certain issues. But I do maintain that he is a good guy, is as capable of
love as much as he is capable of hate, and that his emotional drive is more
'positive' than it seems. I also believe he hides it for two reasons--1) He
is a spy and MUST maintain his disagreeable nature for appearence's sake and
2) He hides the postive in order to keep himself protected, since in his
youth, that was the part most suppressed and trampled upon both by his
situation and by other people around him. I can respect that, having been
severly 'trampled upon' as a youngster myself. Others may not, and I respect
that too...but then, that's why I keep pointing it out--someone has to be
the voice for what most folks can't see and don't understand. That's what
makes it a discussion board.

As for Harry...I believe he will get over the hurts he suffered in book
five, and he will be a fine young man...but in order to do that, he will
have to take more responsibilty for his own actions and understand the
consequences thereof. No more misplacing the 'blame' that is rightfully
his--no more assuming that it is the grownups' responsibility to clean up
after him. He is old enough (and getting older with each book)  to
understand and apply that concept to himself. Most children in fact are
expected to start applying that concept at about the age Harry first arrived
at Hogwarts. It's about responsibility, and maturity. Growing Up. And the
sooner a child learns those basic concepts, the better off they are as they
get older. The longer it takes for Harry to realize those concepts, the
harder it will be for him to deal with what life has to throw at him. Again,
it's a RL concept applied to a fictional character, but it holds true both
in real as well as in fictional life--or else you end up with a
two-dimensional character that learns very little beyond how to defeat the
bad guy (which to me is pretty much a waste of a good character). Personal
opinion, of course, but I really do believe it. Just as I really believe
Harry *will* learn it.

Anyway, Alla, I just hope you can understand my point here. It's not that I
am picking on Harry/Sirius per se, or you personally, or anyone's opinions.
We all have them--but, as I have said before, when we analyze the characters
in Rowling's works, I feel we need to look at all of them with an equal eye
towards who they are, what has shaped them, and why they act the way they
do. Thus far, other then Voldemort (that we know of at any rate), *all* of
the characters have very valid reasons for being as they are. We as the
audience may not understand all those reasons, since we have a limited range
of vision as it were--but really, to keep true to Rowling's themes, we
really need to *Look* at everything before we get into the 'who is right and
who is wrong' decisions. And one of the obvious themes is how the characters
reflect each other in nature and choices. And again, they all have a 'valid'
reason for their stances (even if some of their actions and reactions are
less than sterling in our own imperfect and opinionated eyes.).

It's a good lesson and good practice for how to treat people in real life,
fictional work or not...^^

Anyway, I hope you have a good evening and a good weekend. Take care

Anne





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 27 05:39:29 2004
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 05:39:29 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <001b01c413bc$2a289aa0$05030f04@dslverizon.net>
Message-ID: <c4342h+uqs4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94143

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Silverthorne" 
<silverthorne.dragon at v...> wrote:
> 
> {Silverthorne}
> 
> Yes you did, and if you cannot recognize that Kneasy and I are 
having a good
> natured kabbitz with each other, that honestly has very 
little 'serious'
> bite to it then I suspect you're taking yourself and your view a 
bit too
> seriously when you read what I (or he) have to say. I am well aware 
that
> these are literary characters, not real (and therefor it puzzles 
*me* when
> you seem to defend Harry as if he were a real child and not the
> 'stereotyped' young hero that he is). Kneasy takes the 'evil Snape' 
stance
> and does it well--but I seriously doubt he is the mean old codger 
he appears
> to be on list (In other words, I am teasing him, as I do off list 
on the few
> times we have spoken). A few private emails proves him to be 
intelligent and
> very tolerant, in spite of his 'old codger from hell' personna on 
the board.
> So...if the snipped quote you used is your argument for me 'taking 
it too
> far and assuming that is the way he really is', then you might want 
to
> consider that 'what you see' is not necassarily 'what you get' (The 
very
> accusation you have thrown at me twice now).
> 
>




Anne, I apologise, if I insulted you, I really am and yes, I do know 
that you and Kneasy were teasing each other (i really hope that I did 
not insult him with my remark of him and me reading different books - 
although I still think so) . Othervise, of course I don't know who he 
is.

I am trying no to take myself too seriously, but as I also mentioned 
to you all what I am asking is for you not to make inferences of my 
views based on the fact what HP characters I like.


As to defending Harry as if he was real, well, it is acceptable to 
look at him within the story, right?

I may respond in more details tomorrow.



Sorry again.

Good night.


Alla





From kreneeb at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 27 05:41:37 2004
From: kreneeb at hotmail.com (hermionekitten9)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 05:41:37 -0000
Subject: (Ship) Harry and Parvati
Message-ID: <c4346h+cadt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94144

Tiffany said
snipped a great post...
>Another reason why I think she's going to be Harry's new interest is 
>from the
>one thing that I read that stuck in my mind.

>'He was sitting right behind Parvati Patil, whose long dark hair 
>fell below
>the back of her chair. Once or twice he found himself staring at the 
>tiny
>golden lights that glistened in its when she moved her head very 
>slightly and
>had
>to give his own head a little shake to clear it.' (From OOTP Ch. 31 
>pg. 725
>US version)

kitten says...
Hey... this is really interesting... I'm not a big fan of the major 
ships for Harry i.e. Harry/Hermione, Harry/Ginny, Harry/Luna. So I am 
always looking for any other ship that could work, it doesn't matter 
if its Harry/Pansy or Harry/Parvati... my personal favorite is Harry/ 
Susan, but it really doesn't matter just as long as its not Ginny, 
Hermione, or Luna. 

I think that JKR is going to shock us all with who Harry ends up 
with, like she's done a million times before... we're all
thinking Harry and Ginny are a dead lock then Bang! Parvati comes 
swooping down on her broom, and all the readers are left wondering 
why we didn't see it coming.

kitten...
Who continues to root for the underdogs.





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 27 05:47:47 2004
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 05:47:47 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <001b01c413bc$2a289aa0$05030f04@dslverizon.net>
Message-ID: <c434i3+9bi8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94145

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Silverthorne" <

> Anyway, Alla, I just hope you can understand my point here. It's 
not that I
> am picking on Harry/Sirius per se, or you personally, or anyone's 
opinions.
> We all have them--but, as I have said before, when we analyze the 
characters
> in Rowling's works, I feel we need to look at all of them with an 
equal eye
> towards who they are, what has shaped them, and why they act the 
way they
> do. Thus far, other then Voldemort (that we know of at any rate), 
*all* of
> the characters have very valid reasons for being as they are. We as 
the
> audience may not understand all those reasons, since we have a 
limited range
> of vision as it were--but really, to keep true to Rowling's themes, 
we
> really need to *Look* at everything before we get into the 'who is 
right and
> who is wrong' decisions. And one of the obvious themes is how the 
characters
> reflect each other in nature and choices. And again, they all have 
a 'valid'
> reason for their stances (even if some of their actions and 
reactions are
> less than sterling in our own imperfect and opinionated eyes.).
> 
> It's a good lesson and good practice for how to treat people in 
real life,
> fictional work or not...^^
> 
> Anyway, I hope you have a good evening and a good weekend. Take care
> 
> Anne

Just a small comment.

As I said I will respond tomorrow, but I very strongly disagree with 
you here. It is fun debating the characters, but I feel as if you are 
criticising me for liking them more than Snape at that point.

Yes, we have been through all that and I know you don't mean to do 
that, but it feels like it. I guess I am taking myself too 
seriously. :o)

Yes, for the in depth literary analysis we  may have to look at all 
characters equally, but it is really not always necessary, IMO.


Sorry again,

Alla





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 27 05:52:05 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 05:52:05 -0000
Subject: Evaluating Snape (was: Re: Lupin's resentment )
In-Reply-To: <c42j5d+df8t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c434q5+omkh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94146

-> {Silverthorne}
By the same token, he [Snape] is not physically abusive--other then 
Neville (who already had his insecurities well ingrained into his 
 head by his own Grandmother), the students are not affected overly 
> > much by Snape's words other then having a distinct dislike for 
> > him. And although you may disagree, compared to what Umbridge does 
> > to the students, an acid tongue is minor indeed. The problem with 
> > people claiming 'verbal abuse' is that they forget one very 
> > important thing--unlike physcial abuse, you *can * ignore it. 
> 
> Susan:
> Stepping in to disagree just a wee bit here.  You are correct that 
> Snape does not appear to physically abuse his students.  However, I 
> would argue that what he does to Neville borders on bullying and, 
> more importantly, that what he does w/ Harry is something different 
> altogether than verbal abuse or physical abuse.  
> 
> Let's call it GRADE ABUSE.  Think of those times when Snape is not 
> only snarly or acidic or sarcastic in his comments towards Harry, 
> but when he **totally unfairly**--with no foundation--gives Harry a 
> zero on the day's potion.  At least twice that I can think of Harry 
> was given a zero when he either flat-out didn't deserve the zero or 
> someone *else* [was it Draco?] caused the potion flask to be 
> broken.  And IIRC, comments are made throughout the books which 
> imply that Snape *routinely* gives Harry unwarranted zeros and 
> delights in doing so.  
> 
> If Harry were a poor enough student to routinely deserve zeros, that 
> would be one thing.  But that clearly does not appear to be the 
> case.  Snape abuses his power and assigns zeros where they are not 
> due, just to be cruel to Potter.  Whether he is trying to teach some 
> kind of "life lesson" is debatable but is irrelevant in my mind.  
> This is clear abuse of power.
> 
> I know, I know.  Lots of the time I defend Snape and argue that he 
> is, overall, a good guy.  I also do believe he is extremely talented 
> as a potionmaker.  But when it comes to his teaching methods, I will 
> often argue that he is out of line.  This is part of the "not a nice 
> guy" even though he's a "good guy" in the fight against Voldy, I 
> guess.
> 
> Siriusly Snapey Susan


Carol:
In one instance, it's partly Hermione's fault. Harry spills or drops
his potion, she has helpfully emptied his cauldron with a vanishing
spell, and there's nothing to turn in. So Harry gets a zero for having
no potion. There's no other grade to give him. The apparent pleasure
in giving Harry a zero may be psychological abuse, though that's
stretching it a bit, but the grade isn't grade abuse. It's the only
possible grade under the circumstances. But note that the incident
occurs in Harry's OWL year, and it's the OWL grades that will
determine whether Harry is in Snape's NEWT Potions class. I'm betting
he will be, along with Harry, Ron, Hermione, Draco, just possibly
Neville, and possibly some Ravenclaws and Hufflepuffs because the
class structure is different for NEWT courses--but not, unless I'm
very wrong about Snape's grading policy, Crabbe or Goyle.

One more thing, and I know this is just my opinion, not canon: I don't
think the lesson Snape is teaching Harry in most of these instances is
that life is hard but that *you must follow directions*. You *must*
add the hellebore at the end of step 3. And why single out Harry to
explain why his potion went wrong, and not Goyle, whose potion nearly
set the classroom on fire? Because it's Harry who will need to use
these potions, the particular potions for which Snape pointed out his
specific mistakes, in some future book. At the very least, he will
need to use moonstones and bezoars. (Okay, I'll eat a bezoar if I'm
wrong, but only if you obtain it for me first. ;-) )

Carol, who is still certain that there's a method in Snape's meanness
(and promises to stop repeating this phrase even though she likes it)




From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 27 06:05:09 2004
From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 06:05:09 -0000
Subject: The immensely complex Homorphus Charm
In-Reply-To: <c42jbm+sgvn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c435il+90cf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94147

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" <stevejjen at e...> 
wrote:
> Yes, the way Lockhart describes the event it implies a one-time 
> deal and the werewolf is cured. 
> 
> My thought is the Homorphus charm really does exist, but the 
> description Lockhart gives of the process is incorrect.

I agree that's entirely possible.

> After all, 
> not even Lockhart would publish a book with a made-up charm that 
no-
> one has ever heard of, or else it would become WW news! His books 
> are very popular; someone, somewhere with a werewolf family member 
> would certainly contact him for more information, or someone doing 
> research in the area. At the very least the Werewolf registry in 
the 
> MOM would probably want to know about it to reduce their caseload!

While it may be entirely possible, this might not be the reason why. 
I don't believe Lockhart is sensitive to consequences.

> So, lets say the charm exists. Well at that point we have info 
from 
> Fantastic Beasts that says there is "no known cure" for 
> lycanthrophy. So the spell would have to perform some other 
function.

That seems very plausible. The Homorphus charm *COULD* change the 
werewolf into a human form once and for all, but leave the werewolf 
ith a werewolf mind once a month, or it could leave the werewolf 
insane, etc.

> Lockhart tells Harry and Ron this in COS:
> 
> "My dear boy...do use your common sense. My books wouldn't have 
sold 
> half as well if people didn't think *I'd* done all those things."
> 
> "...There was work involved. I had to track these people down. Ask 
> them exactly how they managed to do what they did."
> 
> IF Lockhart's telling the truth here, we now know there's a 
> Homorphus charm and there's at least one person out there who can 
> perform it. But that's where I think the truth ends! His antics in 
> the classroom were drama. 

The IF is always a mighty big one! My worry is that there was one 
person who *could* make the HC work as intended, and GL blanked his 
memory.
 
> The real Homorphus charm, immensely complex like the Fidelius, 
might 
> also require two people who enter into the charm together instead 
of 
> one person casting the spell on another without their consent. So, 
> with the consent of the werewolf, the caster is able to change the 
> werewolf to human form once a month, but only after the person has 
> transformed. Otherwise it would be a cure.

A lot of this hinges exactly on WHY it's immensely complex. Lastly, 
why are we so sure that DD would cure Lupin if he could? (I think he 
would, but that's mere speculation on my part).

-J.




From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 27 06:10:28 2004
From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 06:10:28 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c42kko+25b8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c435sk+7df4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94148

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> 
wrote:

> As unprofessional as encouraging one of your students to 
> conjure a fellow teacher in drag? Don't tell me there wasn't any 
> other way to handle the situation. I'm sure if Neville's worst 
fear 
> had been Harry or McGonagall, Lupin would have thought of 
> something. 

I politely disagree.
 
> There are other instances of unprofessional conduct from Lupin: 
> not preparing a record of the topics covered for Snape

I'm guessing that Lupin would have assumed the class would have told 
Snape (Lupin would have been right, they did, and Snape disregarded 
them and then he assigned them an essay on werewolves).

> not 
> turning in the Marauder's Map, not telling Dumbledore about 
> Sirius's animagus ability and his knowledge of secret entrances, 
> and not taking his potion. 

But those, while being of debatable wisdom, are not unprofessional 
behaviors towards another teacher.
 
> We've had the misfortune to view Snape mostly through Harry's 
> eyes. If we'd been looking from Draco's POV instead, we might 
> think he was an old softie, perish the thought!

I *think* Draco would view Snape as somewhere between a minion and a 
friend of his dad.

-Joe in SoFla




From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Sat Mar 27 06:21:24 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 06:21:24 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore's bad descisions?
In-Reply-To: <c429dj+qcof@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c436h4+enuf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94149

Snip of Carol's first post
> Sue responded:
> > IIRC (and of course, I have been known to be horribly wrong), 
Sirius 
> > went to FIND and CONFRONT Peter. Not to murder him.  In the 
> > Shrieking Shack he tells Lupin to hurry up because he wants to
> commit the murder he was convicted of. He never says he intended to
> kill Peter when he found him the day after the Potters were 
murdered.
> > 
> > Sue, who cannot find her copy of PoA anywhere since her 7 year 
old 
> > decided to read it. :(
> 
> Carol again:
> Wish I'd responded to this before anyone else did--too tired to 
think
> straight last night. Note the "apparently" in my first sentence
> above--I should have done something similar in the last sentence as
> well. I do know that I'm just assuming, but given Sirius's violent
> temper and general rashness, his attempt to murder Severus when they
> were both sixteen, his later determination to commit the murder he 
was
> imprisoned for, his statement at Godric's Hollow (recalled by Hagrid
> in PoA) that he wouldn't be needing his motorcycle any more, and his
> mad laugh as he's hauled away from the scene of Peter's crime, I'm
> convinced that he intended not only to confront Peter but to get
> revenge, either by killing him or by seriously and permanently
> injuring him. No proof, of course, just canon evidence of his
> temperament and behavior on other occasions.  Then again, I'm not a
> Sirius fan and maybe I tend to judge him a bit harshly (as others
> judge Snape).
> 
> Precocious seven-year-old you've got there!
> 
> Carol

More precocious than you can imagine...I wish my brain worked like 
that.  Tomorrow I think I'll ask her about Snape and see what she 
thinks...but I digress.

You mention another thing that gets my dander up.  As my book is 
still MIA, bear with me if I misquote.  Sirius simply told Snape how 
to get into the tunnel under the tree.  He did *not* offer him candy 
and tell him there was a great treat waiting for him there.  He said 
something like "If you want to see what we are up to, just prod the 
knot and you can find out."  It was Snape, of his own free will, who 
went into the tunnel.  The *only* person who *ever* refers to what 
Sirius did as attempted murder is Snape himself.  I cannot imagine DD 
allowing a student to stay in school whom he believed capable of 
murder for pleasure, much less trusting him enough to make him a part 
of a secret organization with the sole purpose of defeating evil.

There is no question Sirius behaved rashly at times; he's had a hell 
of a life.  Eons ago I posted that I believed his mad laughter when 
arrested was not insanity (or indicative of wanting to commit murder) 
but incredulity.  In other words he laughed because he was 
thinking, "how could I have been so stupid?!"  He was the one who 
suggested they change to Peter thinking he would be killed and they 
would still be safe because Peter would never betray them.  Imagine 
his shock when he discovers that not only has Peter betrayed the 
Potters, but he is also capable of killing 12 innocent people without 
batting an eye.  As many of us have stated, he lost everything 
(except Lupin, but he didn't even get to tell him the truth about 
what happened until 12 years later) and he simply couldn't believe 
it.  

Just to throw this out, why cry (I'm talking JKR here) over a 
character that would attempt murder as a teenager, trying to kill 
someone who will, in the end, turn out to be basically benevolent?  
No.  Sirius may be rash but he is no murderer and he never was.  If 
Snape was stupid enough to go into that tunnel with the hope of 
getting a few of his enemies expelled, he took his own chances.  It 
certainly wasn't noble, but IMHO neither is much (or any) of what 
Snape does.  They were both 16, they were both stupid and fortunately 
for everyone involved, James had more than air between the ears.

I have way more trouble defending the things Snape does than the 
things Sirius has done.  JKR has said we will learn more about "the 
prank" in later books.  I hope it clears up what led up to that 
point.  Imagine the shock of many on the list if it turns out that 
Snape and his good friends Bellatrix Black and the Lestrange brothers 
had spent some time in the home of Sirius and Regulus Black 
recruiting Regulus to join a certain organization bent on eliminating 
all of the "Mudbloods and Muggles".  And despite a certain older 
brother begging and pleading, Regulus's best friend Severus convinced 
him to jinx his brother, expose his friend Lupin to the Black family 
and cause Sirius to never be able to return home again.  Just one way 
out speculation but the possibilities are endless.

I'm not willing to commit myself to ESE!Snape, but I don't buy any 
version of FallenAngel!Snape or Benevolent!Snape either.

Sue, who is absolutely not on the fence when it comes to Sirius or 
Lupin




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 27 06:35:43 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 06:35:43 -0000
Subject: Here's a Crazy thought...
In-Reply-To: <004a01c41399$2cf82340$05030f04@dslverizon.net>
Message-ID: <c437bv+hja3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94150

Mo wrote: 
<snip> And, how about this too...
> Snape was always a member of the order and he went
> undercover on DD's orders and purposely became a DE
> JUST so he could get on the inside.  Basically, he was
> the member who risked the most out of any of them.
> So, he was NEVER a REAL DE, but just posing as one all
> along, doing the most dirty work.. ???
>
Carol:
He has the Dark Mark burned into his arm, which means he was a real
Death Eater--and must have taken an oath to give a lifetime of service
 or death. DD says in the Pensieve scene, "He is now no more a Death
Eater than I am," apparently meaning that Snape has renounced the DEs
and everything they stand for, but the DEs themselves don't know this.
That's why (IMO) Snape has to stay at Hogwarts, so that he'll be
unable to participate in their activities for at least ten months of
the year--easier, of course, before LV was resurrected. Maintaining
credibility with the DEs and LV now that he's back will be much
harder, and so, I'm afraid, will avoiding some "dirty work."

Still, Snape was considered an important DE, important enough for
Karkaroff to mention him in the Pensieve scene, so maybe he didn't
have to stoop to Muggle baiting and Crucioing people who opposed LV
before he found refuge at Hogwarts. Maybe LV recognized and used his
potion-making talents rather than sending him out to torture people.
Karkaroff identified other DEs with specific curses or crimes, such as
murdering the McKinnons, torturing the Longbottoms, and forcing
countless people to do terrible things using the Imperius curse, but
for Snape he only said, "I assure you, Severus Snape is a Death
Eater." We have no idea what Snape did or what caused him to renounce
his loyalty and turn to Dumbledore. Maybe he witnessed the murder of
Regulus Black and knew then that he wanted no part in a gang of
murderers and sadists. I can't see him doing "dirty work" for the DEs
unless he was forced to, certainly not for the sake of appearances,
pretending to be a DE.

Carol, who realizes she's said enough on this subject!




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 27 06:46:21 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 06:46:21 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c430ma+snrb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c437vt+i9p9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94151

> Potioncat:
> I've always thought it was sad that the two people we've seen Snape 
> call by first names are Igor who betrayed him and Draco who probably 
> would too. (Although I had the impression that his use of Draco's 
> name was a way of minipulating him.)
> 
> Along that line, in a general school setting, would it be the norm 
> for some students to call each other by last names? Or is that a 
> way of showing dislike?


If that's the case, Draco must dislike Crabbe and Goyle. :-)

Carol




From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Sat Mar 27 07:44:37 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 07:44:37 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c41lsb+5vt2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c43bd5+2rh5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94152

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at y...> 
wrote:
snip
> you and me are reading very 
> different books and I don't see any discussion possible between us at 
> all, because what you call black, I call white and vice versa.

That's how it should be, don't you think?
The site would be a hellishly boring place if all marched to the samed
drummer.

IMO what we get out of a book depends to a great extent on what we
bring to  it. The finer details of character, fleshing out the back-plot
and history depends on your imagination, experiences, attitudes and
tastes. That is the glory of books, what we see is influenced by  what
we are.

So  far as I know, no-one on site would dream of raising a banner to
an orthodoxy that all should adhere to; personally, I relish the
diversity around this place - it gives me plenty of scope for provocation.

But I'm a bit sad about one thing.
I started reading the books before the films were released, and I had
very definite images of the characters. But now I can't recall what *my*
Hagrid was like - forever more Robby Coltrane *is* Rubeus Hagrid.
Same for Fudge -  Robert Hardy he ain't; nor is Vernon Dursley Richard
Whatisname. They may be good actors interpreting the characters, but 
they're not my characters.
Someone else's  images have replaced my own, my friends have been
usurped. It's almost like being robbed.

Kneasy
 





From gbannister10 at aol.com  Sat Mar 27 07:54:18 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 07:54:18 -0000
Subject: They shoot horses don't they (was Horse Feathers)
In-Reply-To: <c42v05+n7aj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c43bva+igea@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94153

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" 
<justcarol67 at y...> wrote:

> Carol:

> Harry fell fifty feet from a broom and only broke his arm, 

Geoff:
He didn't even break his arm - you may be confusing that with COS 
when he gets hit by a Bludger. But there were reasons....

"It was as though Harry's memory was on fast forward. The 
lightning.... the Grim..... the Snitch.... and the Dementors....
'What happened?' he said, sitting up so suddenly they all gasped.
'You fell off,' said Fred. 'Must've been - what - fifty feet?'
'We thought you'd died,' said Alicia, who was shaking.'"

(POA "Grim Defeat" p. 135 UK edition)

"'Dumbledore was really angry,' Hermione said in a quaking 
voice. 'I've never seem him like that before. He ran onto the pitch 
as you fell, waved his wand  and you *sort of slowed down before you 
hit the ground....'"

(Ditto p.136)





From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Sat Mar 27 07:57:39 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 07:57:39 -0000
Subject: They shoot horses don't they (was Horse Feathers)
In-Reply-To: <c423n5+hfj6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c43c5j+bchv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94154

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" <carolynwhite2 at a...> wrote:
> 

> I was going to ask why you were being measured for a shotgun, but I 
> won't, and not just because it's OT...
> 

Kneasy:
Not I. A local inherited a pair of Purdeys and thay needed to be refitted.
He went on about it for months.

Carolyn:
> To ward off the elves..and on the topic of blowing things up.. do you 
> suppose there are any muggle weapons that can hurt a wizard ? 

Kneasy:
Interesting question. 
I  have visions of Arthur being shredded by a lawnmower.

Quite a few wizards wander around the Muggle world but never seem to 
come to grief. You'd expect that one would get hit by a bus occasionally,
but the patients at St Mungo's don't seem to be the victims of the mundane.

As for deliberately hurting a wizard, I don't know. I suspect not, but I'll 
give it some thought and try to come up  with something that's suitably
gory/disgusting/entertaining, depending on your outlook.

Kneasy




From belijako at online.no  Sat Mar 27 10:55:27 2004
From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 10:55:27 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c41kfb+95me@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c43miv+mjj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94155

Kneasy wrote:
> Why on earth do you want him to be loving?
> I think ole Snapey is great just the way he's appeared up  to now.
<snip>> 
> I  strongly  suspect movie contamination in all this pining for
> a softer more compassionate Snape: you're not seeing Snape as
> written - you're seeing Alan Rickman. Fantasy time! Be honest.
> 
> The Snape I imagine has a pitted cadaverous face, two days worth
> of stubble, nose hairs, yellowing teeth and halitosis. We  already
> know he has a hooked nose and sallow skin. A pin-up he ain't.
> And he has a personality to match. JKR in one interview hinted
> that he might be redeemed, but he would never be nice; 'not nice
> at all' are the words she's used to describe him -  and now you 
> want him to be a fluffy bunny in disguise. Hearts and flowers?
> More like acid and thistles for Snape. He enjoys being misanthropic.
> 
> Hands off our nasty, bullying, sarcastic, slimy, evil Potions Master
> please. He's perfect the way he is.
> 
Berit replies:

Did I say I *wanted* Snape to be loving? And sorry mate; I never 
liked Rickman as Snape, he's too tall, too "good-looking", too 
refined and elegant and not walking in a twitching enough manner to 
depict Snape correctly. I happen to agree with you that the HP Snape 
is ugly, repulsive and mean. I know he'd scare the ... out of me if I 
ever met a real version of him (Lupin's more my type :-)

What I *was* trying to convey, was that according to canon (and not 
movie contamination), Rowling's Snape *is* capable of liking someone 
and showing them due respect and recognition. That doesn't mean he 
will ever be *nice* to his students and especially to Harry, but he 
CAN behave *nicely* towards peers like McGonagall and Dumbledore.

Berit
http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html




From Elvishooked at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 27 11:02:36 2004
From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 11:02:36 -0000
Subject: Here's a Crazy thought...
In-Reply-To: <c437bv+hja3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c43n0c+dp24@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94156

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, 
><<< Mo wrote: 
<snip> And, how about this too...
Snape was always a member of the order and he went
undercover on DD's orders and purposely became a DE
JUST so he could get on the inside.  Basically, he was
the member who risked the most out of any of them.
So, he was NEVER a REAL DE, but just posing as one all
along, doing the most dirty work.. ???>>>

Carol replied:
>>>> He has the Dark Mark burned into his arm, which means he was a 
real Death Eater--and must have taken an oath to give a lifetime of 
service or death. DD says in the Pensieve scene, "He is now no more a 
Death Eater than I am," apparently meaning that Snape has renounced 
the DEs and everything they stand for, but the DEs themselves don't 
know this. 
..snip..
Still, Snape was considered an important DE, important enough for
Karkaroff to mention him in the Pensieve scene, 
..snip..
Karkaroff identified other DEs with specific curses or crimes, such as
murdering the McKinnons, torturing the Longbottoms, and forcing
countless people to do terrible things using the Imperius curse, but
for Snape he only said, "I assure you, Severus Snape is a Death
Eater." 
..snip..
I can't see him doing "dirty work" for the DEs unless he was forced 
to, certainly not for the sake of appearances,
pretending to be a DE.<<<

(sorry about all the snipping)

Inge:
Actually I *can* see Snape doing "dirty work" for the DEs for the 
sake of appearances, pretending to be a DE.
And as such I agree with Mo. If Dumbledore wanted a spy inside with 
Voldemort this spy would *have* to be doing "dirty work" for the sake 
of appearances. How else would a spy be accepted - and useful?

Back in post #89654 I expressed the same idea that Mo came up with - 
that Snape was never a REAL DE. 
It may have been Dumbledore who asked him this favor - or it may have 
been Snape him self who offered to do the job.

Yes, he has the Dark Mark, - 
Yes, in the pensive scene Dumbledore said: "He is now no more a Death 
Eater than I am"
Yes, Karkaroff stated: "I assure you, Severus Snape is a Death
Eater." 

But all that makes scenes if Snape had been working for Dumbledore 
all along and had never been a DE because he 'wanted to be' - but 
because it was his job as a spy from the very beginning.
The Dark Mark he would have to accept for Voldemort to trust him.
Dumbledore could not blow his cover. 
Karkaroff didn't KNOW that Snape was a spy.

As said before - if Snape did this - my admiration for him and his 
courage goes higher than ever.
Inge





From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Sat Mar 27 11:13:02 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 27 Mar 2004 12:13:02 +0100
Subject: Modern plumbing? (was:If DD knows, then why...?)
Message-ID: <20040327111302.7E60D30E4EE@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 94157

> Carol:

> Professor Binns's comment that "the school has been searched for such
> a chamber, many times, by the most learned wizards and witches" (SS
> Am. ed. 151). This group includes DD because Binns adds, after arguing
> that the Chamber is a mere legend, "If a long succession of Hogwarts
> headmasters and headmistresses haven't found the thing-- . . . I
> repeat, if the likes of Dumbledore--" (152). [snip] Or, as Binns reluctantly tells the students, only the Heir
> could unseal it (151), but evidently once it had been unsealed,
> another Parselmouth could open it [...]

Probably it has been discussed before (sorry in such case.) SLytherin built in the Chamber of Secrets ca. thousands years ago. The ntrance to the chapter is behind the think on which tap there is a tiny snake engraved. 
Was such modern plumbing available at Founders' times? Or the ntrance then was masked by stone basin with cold water and in the course of Hogwarts many rebuilts magically "transplanted" itself onto more modern homologue?

So the professors might have searched in vain, since the entrance was ever-changing its form.

Cheers, Viridis
________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!



From gbannister10 at aol.com  Sat Mar 27 11:14:00 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 11:14:00 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c43bd5+2rh5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c43nlo+nan4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94158

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:

Kneasy:
> But I'm a bit sad about one thing.
> I started reading the books before the films were released, and I 
had
> very definite images of the characters. But now I can't recall what 
*my*
> Hagrid was like - forever more Robby Coltrane *is* Rubeus Hagrid.
> Same for Fudge -  Robert Hardy he ain't; nor is Vernon Dursley 
Richard
> Whatisname. They may be good actors interpreting the characters, 
but 
> they're not my characters.
> Someone else's  images have replaced my own, my friends have been
> usurped. It's almost like being robbed.

Geoff:
I think this is something which we agree on; we develop our own 
mental picture of a character and find it doesn't chime with the film.

Although, in my case, I started the other way. I saw the HP films 
first so have adopted the film characters as my view. But, in the 
case of Tolkien, I approached the films with trepidation as I have 
such a strong view of Middle Earth in my mind. I was, in general, 
pleasantly relieved. There are exceptions though; Hugo Weaving, for 
example, is not Elrond. Other stories have been the same.




From greatraven at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 27 11:38:37 2004
From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 11:38:37 -0000
Subject: What ARE Dementors?
Message-ID: <c43p3t+sru6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94159

I've wondered for a long time ... exactly what ARE the Dementors? I
mean - we know what they DO, but that's it. And they are sentient -
they make
alliances and somehow communicate with (Ministry) wizards. Are they
born like
that? (The mind boggles at the thought of Dementors with mates and
children! :-D) Are they former humans, like vampires, who have died
and come 
back in some nasty form? Maybe victims of their Kiss come back as 
Dementors? In any case, I haven't spotted any evidence for what they
are, in 
canon, but perhaps someone else has?

Sue B




From gbannister10 at aol.com  Sat Mar 27 11:39:10 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 11:39:10 -0000
Subject: Modern plumbing? (was:If DD knows, then why...?)
In-Reply-To: <20040327111302.7E60D30E4EE@front.interia.pl>
Message-ID: <c43p4u+hm4v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94160

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, bufo_viridis at i... wrote:

Carol: 
> > Professor Binns's comment that "the school has been searched for 
such
> > a chamber, many times, by the most learned wizards and witches" 
(SS
> > Am. ed. 151). This group includes DD because Binns adds, after 
arguing
> > that the Chamber is a mere legend, "If a long succession of 
Hogwarts
> > headmasters and headmistresses haven't found the thing-- . . . I
> > repeat, if the likes of Dumbledore--" (152). [snip] Or, as Binns 
reluctantly tells the students, only the Heir
> > could unseal it (151), but evidently once it had been unsealed,
> > another Parselmouth could open it [...]

Viridis:
> Probably it has been discussed before (sorry in such case.) 
SLytherin built in the Chamber of Secrets ca. thousands years ago. 
The ntrance to the chapter is behind the think on which tap there is 
a tiny snake engraved. 
> Was such modern plumbing available at Founders' times? Or the 
ntrance then was masked by stone basin with cold water and in the 
course of Hogwarts many rebuilts magically "transplanted" itself onto 
more modern homologue?

Geoff:
There is a thread which might be of interest to follow through - "Why 
put the entrance to the Chamber of Secrets in a girl's bathroom?" It 
begins at message 88282.




From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Sat Mar 27 11:49:13 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 11:49:13 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c43miv+mjj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c43pnp+bdjf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94161

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Berit Jakobsen" <belijako at o...> wrote:
> 
> What I *was* trying to convey, was that according to canon (and not 
> movie contamination), Rowling's Snape *is* capable of liking someone 
> and showing them due respect and recognition. That doesn't mean he 
> will ever be *nice* to his students and especially to Harry, but he 
> CAN behave *nicely* towards peers like McGonagall and Dumbledore.
> 

Well, that's a relief.
Respect is something that Snape would approve of, I think. He'd respect
DD, McGonagall and Voldy, though each for probably different reasons.
DD for his magical abilities and implacable opposition to evil tyranny;
Minerva - probably magical skills and unswerving loyalty; to Voldy a  
different sort of respect, that (verging on fear) that's given to those with
naked power allied to unbounded ambition. If you don't respect them, 
you'll underestimate them and they will destroy you. In effect you respect
what such a person can do, rather than what they are.

But it's still not *quite*  the same as liking, IMO. He's starting to show
some grudging respect for young Potter, but I doubt he'll ever like him.

Kneasy


 




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Sat Mar 27 13:04:30 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 13:04:30 -0000
Subject: Evaluating Snape (was: Re: Lupin's resentment )
In-Reply-To: <c434q5+omkh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c43u4u+c258@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94162

{Silverthorne}
> By the same token, he [Snape] is not physically abusive--other 
> then Neville the students are not affected overly much by Snape's 
> words other then having a distinct dislike for him. And although 
> you may disagree, compared to what Umbridge does to the students, 
> an acid tongue is minor indeed. 

Susan:
> Stepping in to disagree just a wee bit here.  You are correct that 
> Snape does not appear to physically abuse his students.  However, 
> I would argue that what he does to Neville borders on bullying 
> and, more importantly, that what he does w/ Harry is something 
> different altogether than verbal abuse or physical abuse.  
> 
> Let's call it GRADE ABUSE.   
 
Carol:
> In one instance, it's partly Hermione's fault. There's no other 
> grade to give him. The apparent pleasure in giving Harry a zero 
> may be psychological abuse, though that's stretching it a bit, but 
> the grade isn't grade abuse. 
> 
> One more thing, and I know this is just my opinion, not canon: I 
> don't think the lesson Snape is teaching Harry in most of these 
> instances is that life is hard but that *you must follow 
> directions*. And why single out Harry to explain why his potion 
> went wrong, and not Goyle, whose potion nearly set the classroom 
> on fire? Because it's Harry who will need to use these potions....

SUSAN AGAIN:
Yup, yup, yup, I seem to be guilty of EXTRAPOLATING to a degree that 
was inappropriate on the grades.  In skimming through the books last 
evening, it became apparent that, if anything, it was "Points Abuse" 
even more than "Grade Abuse" that was coloring my impressions. :-) 
Okay, for grins, I'll set out briefly what I found on this *general* 
topic, expanding it to the wider area of Snape's treatment of Harry 
& the Gryffindors.

SORCERER'S STONE:
Neville messed up his potion and Snape said:
"You--Potter--why didn't you tell him not to add the quills?  
Thought he'd make you look good if he got it wrong, did you?  That's 
another point you've lost for Gryffindor."  [US Scholastic hardback, 
p. 139]

"Library books are not to be taken outside the school," said 
Snape.  "Give it to me.  Five points from Gryffindor."
"He's just made that rule up," Harry muttered angrily.... [US, p. 
182]

"Potions lessons were turning into a sort of weekly torture, Snape 
was so horrible to Harry."  [US, p. 221]

CHAMBER OF SECRETS:
"Professor Severus Snape was Harry's least favorite teacher.  Harry 
also happened to be Snape's least favorite student.  Cruel, 
sarcastic, and disliked by everybody except the students from his 
own house (Slytherin)...." [US, p. 77]

[The lesson where Harry's to create a diversion for 
Hermione.]  "Snape prowled through the fumes, making waspish remarks 
about the Gryffindors' work while the Slytherins sniggered 
appreciatively. Draco Malfoy, who was Snape's favorite student, kept 
flickering puffer-fish eyes at Ron and Harry, who knew that if they 
retaliated they would get detention faster than you could 
say 'Unfair.'" [US, p. 186]  [Harry **was** breaking the rules in 
this lesson!]

PRISONER OF AZKABAN:
Snape is filling in for Lupin in DADA.  Harry is late & justifiably 
loses 10 points.  A series of points are taken for 1) Harry not 
sitting down; 2) Harry asking what's wrong w/ Lupin; 3) Hermione 
blurting out an answer about werewolves after Snape both ignores her 
hand *and* having said "Anyone [know the difference]?"  Clearly 
Hermione did know, but he wouldn't allow her to answer, then he took 
points for her knowing.  Ron also received detention for pointing 
out this last.  [US, pp. 170-172]

Mel said previously that:
"In *every single* one of those lessons (even the one in which SNAPE 
HIMSELF breaks Harry's sample flask) Harry has screwed up his potion 
due to carelessness, inattentiveness or nosiness."  I would agree 
that certainly Harry is to blame sometimes, but I would also provide 
this:

"They had Potions that afternoon, which was an unqualified 
disaster.  Try as Harry might, he couldn't get his Confusing 
Concoction to thicken, and Snape, standing watch with an air of 
vindictive pleasure, scribbled something that looked suspiciously 
like a zero onto his notes before moving away."  [US, p. 318]  No, 
we don't KNOW he gave a zero, but we do see that Harry was trying 
not to mess up.

GOBLET OF FIRE:
"...Snape--Harry's least favorite person at Hogwarts.  Harry's 
loathing of Snape was matched only by Snape's hatred of him, a 
hatred which had, if possible, intensified last year, when Harry had 
helped Sirius escape right under Snape's overlarge nose...." [US, p. 
175]

[Draco & Harry get into a pre-class fight over Draco's comments 
about Hermione & Ron.  BOTH fire spells which collide & wreak havoc 
on others--Hermione's teeth & Goyle's nose.]  After cruelly telling 
Hermione he saw no difference in her teeth, Snape says, "'Let's 
see,' he said, in his silkiest voice. 'Fifty points from Gryffindor 
and a detention each for Potter and Weasley." [US, pp. 298-300]

ORDER OF THE PHOENIX:
[First lesson of the year--a "difficult, fiddly potion" was 
assigned.  Harry's didn't look right, and neither did Ron's, 
Seamus's or Goyle's.]  "At Harry's cauldron, however, Snape stopped, 
looking down at Harry with a horrible smirk on his face.  'Potter, 
what is this supposed to be?'... [Harry replied, Snape asks if he 
can read, Harry sees his error.]... "'I forgot the hellebore....' 
'I know you did, Potter, which means that this mess is utterly 
worthless.  Evanesco.'  ...His potion had been no worse than 
Ron's...or Neville's...yet it was he, Harry, who would be receiving 
zero marks for the day's work. ...'That was really unfair,' said 
Hermione consolingly.... 'Your potion wasn't nearly as bad as 
Goyle's, when he put it in his flagon the whole thing shattered and 
set his robes on fire.'" [US, pp. 233-235]

[Harry receives a "D" on his homework. Then that day's new lesson is 
part one of Strengthening Solution.]  "Determined not to give Snape 
an excuse to fail him this lesson, Harry read & reread every line of 
the instructions on the blackboard at least three times before 
acting on them." [In his own assessment, it wasn't perfect but still 
good.  He delivered a flagon to Snape.  Again, I point out that he 
*is* trying.] [US, pp. 309-310]

[Part 2 of Strengthening Solution.  Harry allows himself to be 
distracted by Umbridge's questioning of Snape and his potion begins 
to go bad.]  "'No marks again, then, Potter,' said Snape 
maliciously, emptying Harry's cauldron with a wave of his 
hand.  'You will write me an essay on the correct composition of 
thie potion, indicating how & why you went wrong....'" [US, pp. 
364]  [I understand the assignment at the end, but no points for 
part one? taking the potion away before he was done? *Does he do 
this to anyone else?*]

[Malfoy baits the Gryffindor crew over Quidditch, then insults 
Neville's parents.  Neville tries to attack, and Harry & Ron 
**stop** him.]  "'Fighting, Potter, Weasley, Longbottom?' Snape said 
in his cold, sneering voice. 'Ten points from Gryffindor.'" [US, pp. 
361-362]  

[Snape, post-Occlumency ending, ignores Harry in class.  This helps 
Harry, who was pleased w/ his Invigoration Draught.]  "At the end of 
the lesson he scooped some of the potion into a flask, corked it, 
and took it up to Snape's desk for marking, feeling that he might at 
last have scraped an E.  He has just turned away when he heard a 
smashing noise....  His potion sample lay in pieces on the floor, 
and Snape was surveying him with a look of gloating 
pleasure.  'Whoops,' he said softly.  'Another zero, then, 
Potter....'" [US, pp. 660-661]

I'm not trying to pick any fights here.  I just wanted to present 
what I found in my perusal of the books.  Clearly I was wrong about 
*routine* zeros, at least from what I found here.  On the other 
hand, I will argue to the death, as a former teacher, that Snape's 
teaching methods suck!  That last example, in particular, show a 
level of immaturity on Snape's part which is truly appalling.  I'll 
even grant that *sometimes* Snape's antics are designed to get Harry 
to **pay attention** to important things, but a good teacher: 1) 
recognizes that the methods which are effective with one student 
aren't always effective with another [and what he's doing w/ Harry  
*don't* seem to be working to help him learn]; and 2) does not allow 
himself/herself to engage in such ridiculous levels of favoritism.

Just my $.02.

Siriusly Snapey Susan







From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sat Mar 27 13:05:49 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 13:05:49 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c437vt+i9p9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c43u7d+ulan@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94163

Potioncat: 
> > Along that line, in a general school setting, would it be the 
norm 
> > for some students to call each other by last names? Or is that a 
> > way of showing dislike?
> 
Carol: 
> If that's the case, Draco must dislike Crabbe and Goyle. :-)
> 
Potioncat:
How could he not? ; ) 
But doesn't his use of last names in this case imply that he is 
better than them? Or is it just the way things are done?  Have we 
ever heard them address him?  Have we ever heard them speak?

(My only experience with using last names only is in the military 
and that is tied very strongly to rank.)
Potioncat




From kking0731 at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 27 13:18:25 2004
From: kking0731 at hotmail.com (Kathy King)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 08:18:25 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Here's a Crazy thought...
Message-ID: <Sea2-F11wzGDCvPeSHv00024127@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94164



Carol wrote:
Still, Snape was considered an important DE, important enough for
Karkaroff to mention him in the Pensieve scene, so maybe he didn't
have to stoop to Muggle baiting and Crucioing people who opposed LV
before he found refuge at Hogwarts. Maybe LV recognized and used his
potion-making talents rather than sending him out to torture people.

Kathy's thought's:
Could our favorite potion-maker have even put a "stopper in death" for LV? 
GoF pg. 653 LV said to the De's "You know my goal - to conquer death. And 
now, I was tested, and it appeared that one or more of my experiments had 
worked... for I had not been killed, though the curse should have done it." 
Appears to be very likely he had some potion making help here.

_________________________________________________________________
Free up your inbox with MSN Hotmail Extra Storage. Multiple plans available. 
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From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sat Mar 27 13:34:49 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 13:34:49 -0000
Subject: Here's a Crazy thought...
In-Reply-To: <c437bv+hja3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c43vtp+99o5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94165

Carol wrote:
> 
> Still, Snape was considered an important DE, important enough for
> Karkaroff to mention him in the Pensieve scene, so maybe he didn't
> have to stoop to Muggle baiting and Crucioing people who opposed LV
> before he found refuge at Hogwarts. Maybe LV recognized and used 
his
> potion-making talents rather than sending him out to torture 
people.



Potioncat:
And how are we going to feel if JKR shows us an episode where Snape 
did crucio or kill?  We certainly know he has a sadistic streak. Of 
course the important part is that  he changed.
  
Potioncat, who really wishes she hadn't thought of this.




From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net  Sat Mar 27 13:36:50 2004
From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 07:36:50 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Here's a Crazy thought...
References: <Sea2-F11wzGDCvPeSHv00024127@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <004601c41400$8f02d6e0$05030f04@dslverizon.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 94166


Kathy's thought's:
Could our favorite potion-maker have even put a "stopper in death" for LV?
GoF pg. 653 LV said to the De's "You know my goal - to conquer death. And
now, I was tested, and it appeared that one or more of my experiments had
worked... for I had not been killed, though the curse should have done it."
Appears to be very likely he had some potion making help here.

{Silverthorne}

I would not be surprised at all--it's probably what ate up most of Snape's
DE time (along with getting himself insinuated in meetings where he could
learn important things to take back to Dumbly).  Although folks may argue
that it doesn't take a lot of 'magic power' to brew various potions, I don't
think many can argue that it takes a lot of time--more so with potions that
are complicated and may involve directions such as 'Poor Unicorns water over
the bazoar in the silver bowl as the full moon hits zeneath'. (Not
directions for a 'real' Rowling spell, but you get the idea I'm sure). If
Voldy had a choice between letting Snape hover over his 'Immortality Potion'
to make sure it's...er...right, and letting Snape go out with his other DE
buddies to bait Muggles...I suspect the Dark Lord would want that potion
first.

Any DE can bait/kill something...but whether because of ccomplexity, level
of magic and skill, or all those factors, Voldy only had one Potions Master
to rely on...why waste him in a possible scenario that will get Snape killed
and/or captured before the potion is complete?







From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net  Sat Mar 27 13:41:07 2004
From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 07:41:07 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Here's a Crazy thought...
References: <c43vtp+99o5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <004a01c41401$2851f880$05030f04@dslverizon.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 94167

Potioncat:
And how are we going to feel if JKR shows us an episode where Snape
did crucio or kill?  We certainly know he has a sadistic streak. Of
course the important part is that  he changed.

Potioncat, who really wishes she hadn't thought of this.


{Silverthorne}

Well, I suspect it will depend on several factors...

The most important will be *when* he did this killing/torturing.
The next will be why he did it, and whether or not he had a choice in the
matter.
The third will be whether or not he believes in present time that what he
did was right, or if he shows 'true remorse' for having done it.

And then the rest will be up to each indiviudal reader, thier experinces,
their ability to forgive, and so forth.

It will certianly get our board lit up again! lol

Anne





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sat Mar 27 13:39:26 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 13:39:26 -0000
Subject: Here's a Crazy thought...
In-Reply-To: <004601c41400$8f02d6e0$05030f04@dslverizon.net>
Message-ID: <c4406e+4ijt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94168

 
> {Silverthorne}
> 
> 
> Any DE can bait/kill something...but whether because of 
ccomplexity, level
> of magic and skill, or all those factors, Voldy only had one 
Potions Master
> to rely on...why waste him in a possible scenario that will get 
Snape killed
> and/or captured before the potion is complete?

Potioncat:
Isn't it interesting that we all seem to think that Snape was 
potionmaster for LV?  We really don't know that do we?  Is it that 
wonderful speech at the first potions class that makes us think it?

Maybe he was working up some new dark arts!

Potioncat, who wishes she hadn't thought of that either.




From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net  Sat Mar 27 13:46:14 2004
From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 07:46:14 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Here's a Crazy thought...
References: <c4406e+4ijt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <004f01c41401$dfa87ae0$05030f04@dslverizon.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 94169

Potioncat:
Isn't it interesting that we all seem to think that Snape was
potionmaster for LV?  We really don't know that do we?  Is it that
wonderful speech at the first potions class that makes us think it?

Maybe he was working up some new dark arts!

{Silverthorne}

Also possible--but it also takes time and a lot of research, which would
preclude him once again from freely going about with the other DE spreading
chaos (well, except for when he needed to test out a new spell on a human
subject...:P). ^^

Anne





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 27 13:57:53 2004
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 13:57:53 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c43bd5+2rh5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c44191+c8cb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94170

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
> That's how it should be, don't you think?
> The site would be a hellishly boring place if all marched to the 
samed 
> drummer.
>

Yes, yes, of course. I just meant that for me when I am debating 
something with anybody, I prefer to have some common grounds in the 
discussion -like I don't know - to agree on the basics, not 
convincing the other side that my point of view is better. :o)

Otherwise it i just you and me telling our 100% different positions 
to each other. I think we can debate, but we can't discuss. :o)

I think I should go get my dictionary.

Alla




From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 27 14:02:08 2004
From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 14:02:08 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c43u7d+ulan@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c441h0+pbdv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94171

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at m...> 
wrote:
> Potioncat: 
> > > Along that line, in a general school setting, would it be the 
> norm 
> > > for some students to call each other by last names? Or is that 
a 
> > > way of showing dislike?
> > 
> Carol: 
> > If that's the case, Draco must dislike Crabbe and Goyle. :-)
> > 
> Potioncat:
> How could he not? ; ) 
> But doesn't his use of last names in this case imply that he is 
> better than them? Or is it just the way things are done?  Have we 
> ever heard them address him?  Have we ever heard them speak?
> 
> (My only experience with using last names only is in the military 
> and that is tied very strongly to rank.)

In my experience, last-names-only is VERY prevalent in old-
line "prep" ("public schools" in the UK?) schools, especially among 
boys-only schools. The only people who called someone by his first 
name were relatives. A very close friend would probaby call you by 
your nickname, such as "Pongo," "Bertie" or "Barmy."

If you notice, HP, et al., refer to Hagrid as "Hagrid" and not 
as "Rubeus" or any nickname, even though HP and Hagrid are evidently 
quite close.

I find it interesting that *within* Gryffindor (or better yet, 
outside Slyterin) this rule doesn't hold true and it's probably a 
way to distinguish the "us and them."

-Joe in SoFla




From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 27 14:03:38 2004
From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 14:03:38 -0000
Subject: Here's a Crazy thought...
In-Reply-To: <c43vtp+99o5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c441jq+kqtg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94172

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at m...> 
wrote:
> And how are we going to feel if JKR shows us an episode where 
Snape 
> did crucio or kill?  We certainly know he has a sadistic streak. 
Of 
> course the important part is that  he changed.

I'm curious as to WHY he changed.

-Joe in SoFla




From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net  Sat Mar 27 14:10:59 2004
From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 08:10:59 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Here's a Crazy thought...
References: <c441jq+kqtg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <005a01c41405$544de6c0$05030f04@dslverizon.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 94173

I'm curious as to WHY he changed.

-Joe in SoFla


{Silverthonre}
Other than Dumbledore making statements throughoiut the book such as "He is
now no more a Death Eater than I am", we don't know. We only know though
Dumbledore that he has 'changed' sides for real--which would logically
indicate (in the case of most people),  that the values, opinions and
thought processes that led him to joining the DE in the first place have
changed.

As for why, I think Rowling is saving that for book 7...

Anne





From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 27 14:20:48 2004
From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 14:20:48 -0000
Subject: Here's a Crazy thought...
In-Reply-To: <005a01c41405$544de6c0$05030f04@dslverizon.net>
Message-ID: <c442k0+c0pc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94174

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Silverthorne" 
<silverthorne.dragon at v...> wrote:

> Other than Dumbledore making statements throughoiut the book such 
as "He is
> now no more a Death Eater than I am", we don't know. We only know 
though
> Dumbledore that he has 'changed' sides for real--which would 
logically
> indicate (in the case of most people),  that the values, opinions 
and
> thought processes that led him to joining the DE in the first 
place have
> changed.
> 
> As for why, I think Rowling is saving that for book 7...

It's also interesting/puzzling to note that DD is very tight-lipped 
about Snape's conversion and why he (DD) trusts him.

-Joe in SoFla




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sat Mar 27 14:47:04 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 14:47:04 -0000
Subject: Evaluating Snape (was: Re: Lupin's resentment )
In-Reply-To: <c43u4u+c258@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c44458+avqb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94175

 Please assume general merciless snipping throughout
  
> Carol wrote:
 
> > One more thing, and I know this is just my opinion, not canon: I 
> > don't think the lesson Snape is teaching Harry in most of these 
> > instances is that life is hard but that *you must follow 
> > directions*. And why single out Harry to explain why his potion 
> > went wrong, and not Goyle, whose potion nearly set the classroom 
> > on fire? Because it's Harry who will need to use these 
potions....


Potioncat:
I agree fully with the above.

> SUSAN AGAIN:

> Okay, for grins, I'll set out briefly what I found on this 
*general* 
> topic, expanding it to the wider area of Snape's treatment of 
Harry 
> & the Gryffindors.

Potioncat:
Potioncat responding to the 14 or so episodes of Snapiness:
OW!  That hurt!  Many more posts like this one and I may have to 
become a Sirius fan!  (No, anything but that!)

Some of the episodes have raised questions either in this reading or 
when I read them in the books, so I'll respond to a few.

Susan: 
> CHAMBER OF SECRETS:
> "Professor Severus Snape was Harry's least favorite teacher.  
Harry 
> also happened to be Snape's least favorite student.  Cruel, 
> sarcastic, and disliked by everybody except the students from his 
> own house (Slytherin)...." [US, p. 77]

Potioncat: 
Just wondering is this Harry's view or JKR"s? The question came up 
in mind when I was reading it.  We've seen what a few Slytherins and 
Ravenclaws think of Hagrid, have we ever been given opinions from 
other houses about Snape?
> 
Susan:
 Draco Malfoy, who was Snape's favorite student, kept 
> flickering puffer-fish eyes at Ron and Harry, who knew that if 
they 
> retaliated they would get detention faster than you could 
> say 'Unfair.'" [US, p. 186]  [Harry **was** breaking the rules in 
> this lesson!]

Potioncat:
  Now this is one time Harry should have gotten in trouble!  
Fireworks in a potions lab? 
 
Susan: 
> "They had Potions that afternoon, which was an unqualified 
> disaster.  Try as Harry might, he couldn't get his Confusing 
> Concoction to thicken, and Snape, standing watch with an air of 
> vindictive pleasure, scribbled something that looked suspiciously 
> like a zero onto his notes before moving away."  [US, p. 318]  No, 
> we don't KNOW he gave a zero, but we do see that Harry was trying 
> not to mess up.

Potioncat:
I always smile at the joke that a Confusing Concoction 
would "thicken."

Susan: 
> GOBLET OF FIRE:
> "...Snape--Harry's least favorite person at Hogwarts.  Harry's 
> loathing of Snape was matched only by Snape's hatred of him, a 
> hatred which had, if possible, intensified last year, when Harry 
had 
> helped Sirius escape right under Snape's overlarge nose...." [US, 
p. 
> 175]

Potioncat:
Again, is this JKR or Harry? Just out of curiosity.

Susan: 
> [Harry receives a "D" on his homework. Then that day's new lesson 
is 
> part one of Strengthening Solution.]  "Determined not to give 
Snape 
> an excuse to fail him this lesson, Harry read & reread every line 
of 
> the instructions on the blackboard at least three times before 
> acting on them." [In his own assessment, it wasn't perfect but 
still 
> good.  He delivered a flagon to Snape.  Again, I point out that he 
> *is* trying.] [US, pp. 309-310]

Potioncat:
Yes, it seems Snape's methods have motivated him this time. I once 
had a boss who believed fear of punishment motivated better than 
anticipating a reward. (No, I didn't like that boss.)

Susan: 
> [Malfoy baits the Gryffindor crew over Quidditch, then insults 
> Neville's parents.  Neville tries to attack, and Harry & Ron 
> **stop** him.]  "'Fighting, Potter, Weasley, Longbottom?' Snape 
said 
> in his cold, sneering voice. 'Ten points from Gryffindor.'" [US, 
pp. 
> 361-362]

Potioncat:
I felt like he stopped the fight, because he knew what was going on 
and did his usual anti-Gryffindor ploy.  But it was only 10 points 
(That's 3.3 points per boy.)  I thougt this time he was actually 
being kind. (Well, for Snape)

Susan:
> I'm not trying to pick any fights here.  I just wanted to present 
> what I found in my perusal of the books.  .  On the other 
> hand, I will argue to the death, as a former teacher, that Snape's 
> teaching methods suck!  

Potioncat:
No arguement there! And I was only wandering through the post, 
making comments.  But I have to admit, seeing all these episodes at 
one time was just about overwhelming!

I will add as an observation not an excuse, Snape was not hired for 
his teaching skills.  Once this is over, surely he will find a 
different place to work. (Fans' dreams of his being a Headmaster one 
day aside.)  I think he wants Harry to learn the information and 
tries to force it into him the best way he knows how.  A Lupin type 
teacher could probably teach him much better.  But DD hires LV 
fighters, not teachers.

Potioncat (still a Snape fan)




From vmonte at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 27 15:05:48 2004
From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 15:05:48 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <003201c4138b$cdde5b20$05030f04@dslverizon.net>
Message-ID: <c4458c+kk3j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94176

Silverthorne wrote:
By the same token, he is not physically abusive--other then Neville 
(who already had his insecurities well ingrained into his head by his 
own Grandmother), the students are not affected overly much by 
Snape's words other then having a distinct dislike for him. And 
although you may disagree, compared to what Umbridge does to the 
students, an acid tongue is minor indeed. The problem with people 
claiming 'verbal abuse' is that they forget one very important thing--
unlike physcial abuse, you *can * ignore it. All you have to do is 
not buy into what the other person is saying (that's 
called 'enabling', BTW). It's one of the very first thing a 
councillor will tell you--in order for it to work, you have to play 
victim--you have to enable. You don't, and it ceases to affect you.

vmonte responds:

Verbal abuse, especially from someone like Snape who uses words to 
manipulate people and situations, is quite harmful -- especially to a 
child who doesn't have the life experience to understand where Snape 
is coming from.  
It is not possible for an 11 year old to not take verbal abuse 
personally.  Snape is not trying to mold and toughen students up 
(although he may be fooling himself that he is), he is trying to 
knock them down.  It may turn out that Snape is indeed working for 
the Order, but I bet it's not because he is good deep down, but 
because logically it makes sense for him to do so. (If you ask me 
Voldemort is a complete buffoon.) It could also be that Snape will be 
getting something in return for his loyalty!

Snape is a great and interesting character.  I have to admit that I 
enjoy his quick wit. His nasty comments/come backs make me laugh -- I 
wish I could be so witty/clever. 

But I do not fool myself in thinking that he is a good, yet 
misunderstood, person.  

I also don't think that people who have bad life experience have an 
excuse to treat people like garbage.  People have to take 
responsibility for their own actions!  

You can get more out of your students if you give them encouragement 
and treat them with respect.  I would prefer that my child had 
someone like Lupin as a teacher.  

vmonte




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sat Mar 27 15:12:59 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 15:12:59 -0000
Subject: Snape crushes was Re: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c41kfb+95me@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c445lr+t1ae@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94177

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:

> I  strongly  suspect movie contamination in all this pining for
 a softer more compassionate Snape: you're not seeing Snape 
as written - you're seeing Alan Rickman. Fantasy time! Be 
honest.<<

Nope. The only thing Alan Rickman did for my Snape crush was 
make it respectable <g>. I fell for Snape at the end of GoF when 
he bared his past, shook hands with the man who tried to 
murder him and went off to face who knows what danger, armed 
with only his wand and his wits ::sigh::

If anything, it's Shakespear contamination. You know, irascible 
bullying freak tamed by a judicous application of firmness and 
sex appeal. Kate and Petruchio with the genders reversed. Self 
flattering nonsense, of course, but highly entertaining all the 
same.  I admit that tamed Snape wouldn't be nearly as 
interesting a character, but that doesn't mean I can't think of a 
better use for all that passion and eloquence than tormenting 
little boys. <veg>

Kneasy: 
> The Snape I imagine has a pitted cadaverous face, two days 
worth of stubble, nose hairs, yellowing teeth and halitosis. We  
already know he has a hooked nose and sallow skin. A pin-up 
he ain't.<

I don't suppose Snape would be  a knockout, but that's not to say 
he won't clean up well. A little confidence, a little artifice,
some attention to the hair and teeth and voila! Remember 
Hermione at the ball?

Pippin





From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Sat Mar 27 15:15:46 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 27 Mar 2004 16:15:46 +0100
Subject: What happens to victim's body and soul after D-kiss?
Message-ID: <20040327151546.C598F2A644C@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 94178

> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" <ruminalus_ficus at y...>
> wrote:
> > happybean98 wrote:
> > > This may seem like a trivial question, but I feel it may have some 
> > > future significance. What exactly happens to the body of someone 
> > > once they have been kissed by a Dementor?
> > <snip>

> Carol:
> Worse than consciousness. The *soul* of the person is destroyed. It's
> clear from the existence of ghosts, from the Veil in the DoM, and from
> the fact that JKR herself is a Christian that there's some sort of
> afterlife for witches and wizards that may be different in some ways
> from that of Muggles. At any rate, dead witches and wizards can
> choose, as Nearly Headless Nick and Myrtle and the other ghosts have
> done, not to pass into whatever lies beyond this earthly existence, or
> they can enter what DD (I forget where) calls "the last great
> adventure." So to lose your soul is worse than death because you can
> never enter that other realm, never see your loved ones again.

Very interesting thought. I always wondered about Dementor's Kiss, which seem to be Wizardish equivalent of death penalty. For me it sunded always as a "easy way". I mean imprisonment in Azkaban is horrible beyond imagination; even it's not really "reversible" - because it seems that most of the inmates are basically tortured to death by their own psyche. Even if somebody did escape or was released, he'd be probably badly afflicted for the rest of life (no canon evidence, since the only known to us candidate for longitidunal study is unfortunately gone for good).

Now, after the kiss the soul is gone together with consciousness and the person doesn't suffer anymore; even the body may be reasonably "happy" as long as it is provided basic care (I don't suppose they let those half-cadavers starve or anything like this).  

As Carol said basic organization of the HP world is Christian-like, with the soul and body being separate entities. The soul can be sucked out. The body may live on, maybe animated by animal or plant soul (In Arystotelian understanding). The human soul is gone. Where? Is it contained witin the Dementor? The Dementor would be a small, portable, living hell? Soul trap? Is the soul living in a state like a paralised person, conscious but unable to do anyting? Is Dementor a mortal being? If yes, than what happenes to the etrapped souls after it dies? 

Unless we - as Carol proposed - the soul is destroyed. This is a big departure from Christian immortal soul tradition. The "new adventure" after death becomes in such understanding something closer to the concepts of transmigration/ reincarnation, which are denied to wizard after he's kissed. 

This would explain the horribility of the kissed one's fate - especially if the process of desintegrating the soul would be long and painful, digested soul was being conscious of its more and more demented status. Soemthing like people with Alzheimmer suffer being conscious they're les and less mentally able.

Side note 1: such concept is perfect for all anti-HPists, who say that all Hp and magic is in fact well covered buddhism.

Side note 2: I thought that following "buddhist* line of reasoning - such a soul destroying function would make Demntor a "attaining Nirvana machine". But there is a body left - and since in such reasoning there is no real division between body and soul, than the karma produce by body would not enable the person, so artificially separated, really and truly dissapear.

Cheers, Viridis


________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!



From rredordead at aol.com  Sat Mar 27 15:31:34 2004
From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 15:31:34 -0000
Subject: Snape outing Harry as Parselmouth (was Re: If DD knows, then why..?)
In-Reply-To: <c431ld+blol@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c446om+b6ku@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94179

>I don't know who wrote this:
> As for the 2nd year serpensortia thing, I seem to agree with you. 
>It is akin to conjuring, something that 5th years haven't 
> reached. It was also a live animal (a vertebrate no less). I think 
>it may have been a slight flint, because I doubt Malfoy is that 
>skilled, esspecially when it doesnt seem as though he had practiced 
>the spell thoroughly before he used it.

> Susan:
> Oh, I'm not so sure he'd never practiced that spell before. ;-)  
> Remember how comfy Draco was on a broom?  I suspect that he & Daddy 
>spent a good bit of time in Draco's pre-Hogwarts life working on all 
>sorts of magic--especially dark spells.  <snip>

> Sue
> Just wanted to add one little tid bit here.  Malfoy was the head of 
> Muggle torture for Voldemort the first time.  He truly gets a kick 
> out of it.  What a "fun little game" to play with his young 
> son..."Narcissa, we're off to the park to set snakes on the 
>Muggles!  See you in a few hours."  I bet Draco's known that one for 
>a looong  time.
 

mandy here:
Charming thought, Sue! ;-) And welcome back Susan. 

Our Draco is a far more powerful wizard then most of us give him 
credit for.  Doesn't Lucius berate Draco in Knockturn Ally about 
being ashamed to come in second to a mudblood (completely 
paraphrased)?  Hermione, as we know, is top of the class which would 
put Draco at no. 2.  Better than Harry and Ron.  Now, I'm talking 
schooling here, so Harry is still, ultimately, a greater and more 
powerful wizard. But when it comes to school Harry is not a model 
student, which, ironically, Draco is.  Master Malfoy is studious, 
hard working, respectful of authority, or at least (in the case of 
Hagrid)pretends to be to others in authority when necessary.  Draco 
knows how to, and chooses to play the game, Harry doesn't or chooses 
not to.   I guess these apples didn't fall far from the tree did they.

I have not doubt Lucius spent Draco's childhood teaching him powerful 
dark magic, especially after Narcissa wouldn't let Draco go to 
Durmstrung. However I don't think the Serpensortia spell is necessary 
a dark spell.  Snakes are not necessarily dark creatures, although 
many cultures believe them to be so.  The do live all over the planet 
with us and how many children have used them to play tricks and jokes 
on other kids and adults?  Many.  I can see it as a spell children 
might use on each other. Not to mention Draco didn't seem to get in 
to trouble using it, nor did it cause a stur among the children 
watching. There would have been some kind of reaction if it was 
something that unusual to come from a 13-year-old boy.







From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sat Mar 27 15:44:25 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 15:44:25 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c435sk+7df4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c447gp+fi3e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94180

I said:

> > not  turning in the Marauder's Map, not telling Dumbledore 
about Sirius's animagus ability and his knowledge of secret 
entrances,  and not taking his potion. <<

Joe in SoFla:
> But those, while being of debatable wisdom, are not 
unprofessional  behaviors towards another teacher.<

We've seen that the teachers, *especially* the DADA professor, 
are considered to have a professional responsibility to secure 
the school against Dark Magic. Lupin has a responsibility to his 
colleagues to protect them. Certainly this applies to keeping 
track of the full moon and taking his potion on time.

 As for Sirius, either Lupin believed all along that Sirius was not 
dangerous, in which case he should have told Dumbledore so 
that the Dementor guard around the school could be removed, or 
he believed that Sirius was dangerous and  had a responsibility 
to tell Dumbledore everything he knew. 

The same applies to the Marauder's Map. If it was a security risk  
then Dumbledore should have been told about it. If it wasn't, it 
should have been returned to Harry.

Pippin




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 27 15:49:21 2004
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 15:49:21 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c4458c+kk3j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c447q1+61fq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94181

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" <vmonte at y...> wrote:
> vmonte responds:
> 
> Verbal abuse, especially from someone like Snape who uses words to 
> manipulate people and situations, is quite harmful -- especially to 
a 
> child who doesn't have the life experience to understand where 
Snape 
> is coming from.  
> It is not possible for an 11 year old to not take verbal abuse 
> personally. 

Absolutely. There is no sign on the dungeons door saying : "Children, 
if your professor starts to say mean things to you, you should no 
take it personally. Just pretend you don't hear it.":o)
How exactly eleven year olds should know that?


 Snape is not trying to mold and toughen students up 
> (although he may be fooling himself that he is), he is trying to 
> knock them down. 

Well, I used to think that he tries to toughen his students up, but 
as I said - not anymore. That argument went out of the window for me 
with the end of Occlumency lessons. Unless by "toughen up" we mean 
letting his students (or one student) be possessed by Voldemort.


 It may turn out that Snape is indeed working for 
> the Order, but I bet it's not because he is good deep down, but 
> because logically it makes sense for him to do so. (If you ask me 
> Voldemort is a complete buffoon.) It could also be that Snape will 
be 
> getting something in return for his loyalty!
> 
> Snape is a great and interesting character.  I have to admit that I 
> enjoy his quick wit. His nasty comments/come backs make me laugh -- 
I 
> wish I could be so witty/clever. 
> 
> But I do not fool myself in thinking that he is a good, yet 
> misunderstood, person.  
> 
> I also don't think that people who have bad life experience have an 
> excuse to treat people like garbage.  People have to take 
> responsibility for their own actions!  
> 
> You can get more out of your students if you give them 
encouragement 
> and treat them with respect.  I would prefer that my child had 
> someone like Lupin as a teacher.  
> 
> vmonte


I think Neville is the best example of how Snape's tactics do not 
work, if he tries to "be tough". he knows that Neville does very well 
in herbology, where Strout treats him respectfully. Does he change 
anything? Nope.


Alla






From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 27 16:03:28 2004
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 16:03:28 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <001b01c413bc$2a289aa0$05030f04@dslverizon.net>
Message-ID: <c448kg+4955@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94182

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Silverthorne" 
<silverthorne.dragon at v...> wrote:
some defend all or none
> > {Silverthorne}
> There's one problem with that, Alla. Harry would not have 
cooperated. 

We don't know that. he was not happy the first time around, but I 
think he would have complied with the orders his professor or 
headmaster would have given him.

> {Silverthorne}
> Now, divorce yourself from it being *Snape's* memories that Harry 
mucked
> around in. What if they had been yours? Think about it. I know he's 
a
> fictional character, but seriously put yourself in Snape's shoes in 
this
> scenario for a moment before you decide Snape's reaction was 
totally wrong
> (and let's agree to lave out the 'but he could have fixed it later 
arguement
> as well. Let's stay in the moment for now).


Anne, I said that he was entitled to his rage didn't I? Of course I 
would have been angry, had I been in his shoes. But after the moment 
passed, I would take deep breath, reminded myself what is at stake 
here and ordered Harry to come back. But that is what any responsible 
adult teacher should have done, IMO

> 
> Harry is a young man who *should* know better than to go and do the
> equivilent of read your diary. Even worse, he's found
> some of the worst moments in your life and is riffling through them
> thoughtlessly (Harry is more interested in following his father 
around then
> in realizing that he's messing with something personal and not 
meant for him
> to see). 

Definitely, he should and he should not have done what he did. But 
even went into Pensieve, he did not go searching for dirt on Snape, 
he went hoping to see what is in Department of Mysteries, which if 
Dumbledore told him before would not have happened in the first place.


It should be what we do for
> {Silverthorne}
> No, we don't. But that won't keep me from having faith that Snape 
will
> redeem himself, that he deserves at least a little credit for 
leaving the
> DE, and that there's more to him than 'One Nasty Person'. He is a 
human
> being...he has feelings, and he makes mistakes--ones that are more 
glaring
> because he certianly doesn't have a handle on the 'proper' way to 
deal with
> certain issues. But I do maintain that he is a good guy, is as 
capable of
> love as much as he is capable of hate, and that his emotional drive 
is more
> 'positive' than it seems. I also believe he hides it for two 
reasons--1) He
> is a spy and MUST maintain his disagreeable nature for appearence's 
sake and
> 2) He hides the postive in order to keep himself protected, since 
in his
> youth, that was the part most suppressed and trampled upon both by 
his
> situation and by other people around him. I can respect that, 
having been
> severly 'trampled upon' as a youngster myself. Others may not, and 
I respect
> that too...but then, that's why I keep pointing it out--someone has 
to be
> the voice for what most folks can't see and don't understand. 
That's what
> makes it a discussion board.


Anne, as I said I will be very happy if your beliefs will come true.
For now, I have my doubts.
 
Alla




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Sat Mar 27 16:10:35 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 16:10:35 -0000
Subject: Evaluating Snape (was: Re: Lupin's resentment )
In-Reply-To: <c434q5+omkh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4491r+k064@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94183

Carol:
> In one instance, it's partly Hermione's fault. Harry spills or 
> drops his potion, she has helpfully emptied his cauldron with a 
> vanishing spell, and there's nothing to turn in. So Harry gets a 
> zero for having no potion. There's no other grade to give him. The 
> apparent pleasure in giving Harry a zero may be psychological 
> abuse, though that's stretching it a bit, but the grade isn't 
> grade abuse. 

Susan:
Actually, while I really did feel the need to tone down my first 
argument about "grade abuse", this is the one I **would** stick to 
my guns on and call grade abuse or at least grade unfairness. ;-)   
This was the time **Snape** broke Harry's flask after Harry turned 
it in.  I think it's even possible that Snape saw Hermione cleaning 
up Harry's cauldron and then broke it, knowing Harry couldn't fill 
another flask.  Remember, too, that Snape "survey[ed] him with a 
look of gloating pleasure" [US Scholastic, p. 661] after it 
happened.  It reads *to me* as intentional sabotage.

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From editor at texas.net  Sat Mar 27 16:18:18 2004
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 10:18:18 -0600
Subject: Snape's capacity for positive emotion
References: <c41lsb+5vt2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001001c41417$1e68bb40$ae59aacf@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 94184

Kneasy:

> > I  strongly  suspect movie contamination in all this pining for
> > a softer more compassionate Snape: you're not seeing Snape as
> > written - you're seeing Alan Rickman. Fantasy time! Be honest.

[the usual caveats--I have not been reading this thread and don't know what
compassion or tender emotion is being theorized for Snape. This is my take
without having read earlier arguments. Apologies.]

No. Many years ago, when we had a few books under our belts, before serious
rumors rumbled that a movie was in the works, a friend and I had long, fun
discussions "casting" a HP movie.

Drawn from the imagery and characterization in the books, we lit upon Alan
Rickman as the perfect Snape, for his ability to convey multiple shades of
emotion--and that, even before he opens his mouth.

I think the characterization we are being presented is true to Snape's
character. From someone who has seen a lot of Alan Rickman roles, he's
entirely capable of portraying a completely irredeemable nasty person for
whom not a spark flares. There's good evidence JKR has given him inside
info, to help him build his characterization faithfully.

I was a Snape/Lily believer *long* before Alan Rickman was in the mix.
Snape's canon character, all visuals aside, *resonates* with emotion, he
shakes the stones around him with his intensity. The fact of the matter is,
people come equipped with the full range of emotions, good and bad.

Snape has obviously channeled most of his capacity into negative emotion and
his energy into suppressing and/or controlling it--but you must concede, had
there been a time in his past when the emotion was positive and caring, it
would have been as strong and powerful as the other we've seen.

Combine this with the fact that for people who suppress or control as Snape
does, it was often negative life experience that caused them to behave this
way. And in fact, we know of negative life experiences in his past--just not
the specifics.

Postulating that Snape (a) is not always filling the role Harry sees, and
(b) is capable of different emotions the ones appropriate for teaching a
class, does not seem so far-fetched to me. Off the top of my head--so far,
in canon, the only times we've seen him out of the Teacher/Administrator
role:
the staffroom scene in CoS
the Shrieking Shack and ending sequences in PoA
the hospital room sequence in GoF

While they lock him into the model of someone who does not waste extra words
explaining anything he considers irrelevant (i.e., someone who would never
think to *say* that he cares or is doing anything to protect someone, etc.),
and also someone who does things as grumpily as possible, they do not
preclude deeper positive emotion. Or a capacity for tender emotion--back in
the day.

~Amanda, who probably missed the whole point but hasn't posted in a while,
so there




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 27 16:28:16 2004
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 16:28:16 -0000
Subject: Snape's capacity for positive emotion
In-Reply-To: <001001c41417$1e68bb40$ae59aacf@texas.net>
Message-ID: <c44a30+bf5p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94185

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" <editor at t...> 
wrote:
> While they lock him into the model of someone who does not waste 
extra words
> explaining anything he considers irrelevant (i.e., someone who 
would never
> think to *say* that he cares or is doing anything to protect 
someone, etc.),
> and also someone who does things as grumpily as possible, they do 
not
> preclude deeper positive emotion. Or a capacity for tender emotion--
back in
> the day.
> 
> ~Amanda, who probably missed the whole point but hasn't posted in a 
while,
> so there

Hi, Amanda!

No, you did not miss the point at all and you are right, it is 
entirely possible, but at the end of book 5, I think it is time for 
us to see anything lese, beside hate, if Rowling ever plans on 
showing it to us.


Alla




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sat Mar 27 16:41:09 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 16:41:09 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c42kko+25b8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c44ar5+civ7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94186

Pippin Wrote: 
> As unprofessional as encouraging one of your students to 
> conjure a fellow teacher in drag? Don't tell me there wasn't any 
> other way to handle the situation. I'm sure if Neville's worst 
fear 
> had been Harry or McGonagall, Lupin would have thought of 
> something. 

Potioncat:  I can't think of anything else myself, but I agree with 
you.  This is too similar to the taunting from 5th year!  

Now, Snape had embarrassed Neville at he beginning of the class.  So 
the drag image may have been Lupin's way of getting back.  I still 
think Snape was "telling" Lupin something when he reminded him that 
Neville Longbottom was in the class.

Pippin: 
> There are other instances of unprofessional conduct from Lupin: 
> not preparing a record of the topics covered for Snape, not 
> turning in the Marauder's Map, not telling Dumbledore about 
> Sirius's animagus ability and his knowledge of secret entrances, 
> and not taking his potion. 
> 
Potioncat:
I really think Lupin, nice as he is, was negligent.  He really put 
Harry and the school at risk several times. 






From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Sat Mar 27 16:44:07 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 16:44:07 -0000
Subject: Evaluating Snape (was: Re: Lupin's resentment )
In-Reply-To: <c44458+avqb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c44b0n+9n1b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94187

Susan: 
> > CHAMBER OF SECRETS:
> > "Professor Severus Snape was Harry's least favorite teacher.  
> > Harry also happened to be Snape's least favorite student.  
> > Cruel, sarcastic, and disliked by everybody except the students 
> > from his own house (Slytherin)...." [US, p. 77]
 
Potioncat: 
> Just wondering is this Harry's view or JKR"s? The question came up 
> in mind when I was reading it. 

SUSAN:
Yes, me, too.  I wondered as I typed it.  I included it & one other 
statement like it because they were both written as what I'd 
call "narrator speak" (clearly, lit crit wasn't my major)...at least 
not as "And Harry thought to himself" or whatever.  But still a good 
question to ask.  Whose perspective?

Potioncat:
> I will add as an observation not an excuse, Snape was not hired 
> for his teaching skills.  Once this is over, surely he will find a 
> different place to work. (Fans' dreams of his being a Headmaster 
> one day aside.)  I think he wants Harry to learn the information 
> and  tries to force it into him the best way he knows how.  A 
> Lupin type teacher could probably teach him much better.  But DD 
> hires LV fighters, not teachers.

SUSAN:
Interesting thoughts.  I'm not sure Snape will surivive the series, 
though I hope he does.  I'd never really considered Snape leaving 
Hogwarts.  Do others agree w/ Potioncat that, if he survives, he'll 
go off to pursue another career?

> Potioncat (still a Snape fan)

SUSAN:
Believe it or not, I would say that I am, too...probably in the 
sense Kneasy usually notes:  Snape is the most *fascinating* 
character in the books, imo (and, yes, there's that Rickman!Snape 
thing going for me, too).  I think Snape has major faults--
particularly in his teaching style and w/ the ending Occlumency 
lessons thing--but I *love* reading about him and find chapters 
where he is prevalent among my most favorite chapters.  I cannot 
wait to find out all those things we've all been speculating about 
for months & years--IS he a double agent? Is he really a good guy? 
Why did he leave the DEs? Did he make the potion which helped Voldy 
live? Was he at Godric's Hollow? Was there more to the prank? Surely 
he's not a vampire? Will he & Harry ever come to a place of mutual 
respect?  In short, he's flawed but he's **fascinating**!  So, yes, 
I'd call myself a fan as well.  [Which I suppose is a "duh" kind of 
statement, given my name here.]

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sat Mar 27 16:46:15 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 16:46:15 -0000
Subject: Fields of Magic (was Re: Potions Master Question)
In-Reply-To: <c42kta+26li@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c44b4n+l0p2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94188

Carol wrote:
> 
> Snape (IMO) did such a good job there (despite his sarcasm, his
> students learn what he teaches) that DD has left him there for
> fourteen years, also giving him the prestigious position of Head of
> Slytherin House. (It's possible, though, that he was the only 
former
> Slytherin teaching at Hogwarts, in which case the honor would have
> gone to him by default.) His current role as DD's righthand man was
> probably earned by proving himself worth of DD's trust. Compared 
with
> the other teachers, he's still young, but there's a big difference
> between 22 and 37 or 38.
> 


Potioncat:
I don't think anyone would get a head of house if their only 
qualification was that they had been in that house.  Perhaps if 
several equally qualified individuals applied and one was from the 
house, that would be the deciding factor.  To clarify, I think he 
deserved the position.

BTW, do we know when Snape became head of Slytherin?
Potioncat




From maidne at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 27 16:49:44 2004
From: maidne at yahoo.com (maidne)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 16:49:44 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c44ar5+civ7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c44bb8+r3rp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94189

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at m...> 
> Now, Snape had embarrassed Neville at he beginning of the class.  
So 
> the drag image may have been Lupin's way of getting back.  I still 
> think Snape was "telling" Lupin something when he reminded him that 
> Neville Longbottom was in the class.
> 

Susan:  
I never thought of that before.  Maybe he was insinuating that 
Neville's worst fear might take the form of Crucio wielding DE's?





From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Sat Mar 27 17:08:12 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 17:08:12 -0000
Subject: Evaluating Snape (was: Re: Lupin's resentment )
In-Reply-To: <c4491r+k064@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c44cds+7aue@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94190

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" <susiequsie23 at s...> 
wrote:
> Actually, while I really did feel the need to tone down my first 
> argument about "grade abuse", this is the one I **would** stick to 
> my guns on and call grade abuse or at least grade unfairness. ;-)   
> This was the time **Snape** broke Harry's flask after Harry turned 
> it in.  I think it's even possible that Snape saw Hermione cleaning 
> up Harry's cauldron and then broke it, knowing Harry couldn't fill 
> another flask.  Remember, too, that Snape "survey[ed] him with a 
> look of gloating pleasure" [US Scholastic, p. 661] after it 
> happened.  It reads *to me* as intentional sabotage.
> 

Child abuse, psychological abuse, mental abuse - now grade abuse.

Of all the crimes against children that Snape has been accused of,
this one is a non-runner. In fact looking through my binoculars I
can see it leaving the field, limping heavily. Nobbled by it's own
jockey, it looks like.

What you call Grades and what we call Marks seem to have absolutely
no effect on a student's progress at Hogwarts. None. Zilch. Nothing
Snape does or says in this respect has any consequence whatsoever.
Hogwarts seems to be a schoolchild's dream where nobody fails an
exam. Ever. Or not the end of year exam, anyway.

The only exam that matters in Harry's school career are the OWLs - 
and guess what? Snape doesn't set it and doesn't get to mark it. 

So far as Potions is concerned, all is sound and fury and signifying 
nothing. Snape gets  a chance to have a dig at  Harry and Neville,
who both co-operate manfully by cocking up their practical potions
on a regular basis. Time and again both of them mess it up by not
following the list of written instructions. How difficult is that? There's
not even a spell to get wrong -  just add this, this and that in the 
correct order, Gas Mark 5, 20 mins, garnish and serve. Not exactly
demanding, is it? No wonder Snape goes ape. He must feel that he's
banging his head against a brick wall.  But what actually happens -
the Slytherins get to feel smug, Hermione gets to act concerned and
that's about all. No personal punishments, just "Points from Gryffindor!"

And this is just the easy, basic stuff. I dread to think what might 
happen if Harry doesn't get his act together for the NEWTs course- he
could do some real damage to other course members. 
And no, I don't blame Snape. All Harry has to do is *do what he's told*.
But it seems that that is too much to ask. Just as in other aspects of
his teenage progress, Harry doesn't listen, does what *he* wants and
of course it's somebody else's fault when his brilliant strategies don't
work out.

He'll  never get to be a  hero at this rate.

Kneasy 





From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Sat Mar 27 17:32:08 2004
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 09:32:08 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Here's a Crazy thought...
In-Reply-To: <20040327010326.28273.qmail@web13506.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20040327010326.28273.qmail@web13506.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <841496691.20040327093208@mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94191


Friday, March 26, 2004, 5:03:26 PM, Ms Mo Me wrote:

MMM> Well, what if Snape was there and was involved in
MMM> saving Harry?  What if it was Snape that brought about
MMM> LV downfall? (Sort of a countercharm INCLUDING all
MMM> three Snape, HP, and Lily.)

Interesting... If nothing else, it would explain why Snape
is *so* loathing of Harry: Because he's taking all the credit
for Snape's act of heroism.

-- 
Dave




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Sat Mar 27 17:36:03 2004
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 09:36:03 -0800
Subject: Immortality and the Prophesy
In-Reply-To: <20040327010326.28273.qmail@web13506.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20040327010326.28273.qmail@web13506.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <25591303.20040327093603@mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94192

The Prophesy says that only Harry can beat the Dark Lord.
Does that mean if Harry dies first, Voldemort is guaranteed
immortality? (Pretty scary thought!)

-- 
Dave




From evangelina839 at yahoo.se  Sat Mar 27 17:34:34 2004
From: evangelina839 at yahoo.se (evangelina839)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 17:34:34 -0000
Subject: Here's a Crazy thought...
In-Reply-To: <004a01c41401$2851f880$05030f04@dslverizon.net>
Message-ID: <c44dva+v620@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94193

> Potioncat:
> And how are we going to feel if JKR shows us an episode where Snape
> did crucio or kill?  We certainly know he has a sadistic streak. Of
> course the important part is that he changed.

> {Silverthorne}
<snipped>
> The most important will be *when* he did this killing/torturing.
> The next will be why he did it, and whether or not he had a choice
in the
> matter.
> The third will be whether or not he believes in present time that
what he
> did was right, or if he shows 'true remorse' for having done it.

I can't help it, but whenever I think of "Snape the spy" I start
drawing parallels to the movie 
Donnie Brasco. For those of you who haven't seen it, it's about an
FBI (I think) agent who 
infiltrates the mafia, and those of you who *have* seen it probably
remember that DB had 
to participate in some criminal activities to avoid blowing his
cover. So, if Snape ever did 
the Crucio and the Imperio and all that voluntarily, I don't think he
could stop after he 
became DD's spy. I feel fairly certain, though, that DD wouldn't
trust him as much as he 
does if Snape hadn't changed his mind about it now and regrets it.

Um, I guess these are all pretty obvious points. ;)

Eva, who feels like she gains some insight into Snape by picturing
Johnny Depp's facial 
expressions from afore-mentioned movie. :)




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sat Mar 27 17:37:36 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 17:37:36 -0000
Subject: Here's a Crazy thought...
In-Reply-To: <20040327010326.28273.qmail@web13506.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c44e50+5335@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94194

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ms Mo Me <fauntine_80 at y...>
wrote: 
> Well, what if Snape was there and was involved in
> saving Harry?  What if it was Snape that brought about
> LV downfall? (Sort of a countercharm INCLUDING all
> three Snape, HP, and Lily.)
> Then, that WOULD make certain that Snape was the "one
> who left forever"
> 
x
> 
> Feel free to fire away, because even I think this is
> the most crazy theory I have come up with yet.
> 

Potioncat:
I do not own a copy of SS/PS (anathma, I know) So maybe this is 
movie contamination I did just discover the deleted potions class 
scene:

"Step aside you silly girl."  (at Goderick's Hollow)

"Put your hand down you silly girl." (first potions class)

Chills anyone?

Potioncat  
> 
> 
> 
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Sat Mar 27 17:48:34 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 17:48:34 -0000
Subject: Evaluating Snape (was: Re: Lupin's resentment )
In-Reply-To: <c44cds+7aue@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c44epi+q3k6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94195

Siriusly Snapey Susan wrote:
> > Actually, while I really did feel the need to tone down my first 
> > argument about "grade abuse", this is the one I **would** stick 
> > to my guns on and call grade abuse or at least grade 
> > unfairness. ;-)  This was the time **Snape** broke Harry's flask 
> > after Harry turned it in.  I think it's even possible that Snape 
> > saw Hermione cleaning up Harry's cauldron and then broke it, 
> > knowing Harry couldn't fill another flask.  Remember, too, that 
> > Snape "survey[ed] him with a look of gloating pleasure" [US 
> > Scholastic, p. 661] after it happened.  It reads *to me* as 
> > intentional sabotage.

Kneasy:
> Child abuse, psychological abuse, mental abuse - now grade abuse.
> 
> Of all the crimes against children that Snape has been accused of,
> this one is a non-runner. In fact looking through my binoculars I
> can see it leaving the field, limping heavily. Nobbled by it's own
> jockey, it looks like.

Susan again:
Yes, yes, yes, this jockey has slid out of the saddle and is 
dangling perilously. ;-)  On the other hand...

Kneasy said:
> And no, I don't blame Snape. All Harry has to do is *do what he's 
> told*. But it seems that that is too much to ask. Just as in other 
> aspects of his teenage progress, Harry doesn't listen, does what 
> *he* wants and of course it's somebody else's fault when his 
> brilliant strategies don't work out.

Susan again:
Now, Kneasy, kindly tell me how *in the example I gave, above, to 
which your post was responding*, Harry didn't do what he was told?  
What did he choose to do that was wrong, what did he not listen to?  
He MADE his potion & turned it in.  Hermione cleared out his 
cauldron w/o his permission, and Snape "dropped" his potion sample.  
What did Harry do wrong here?

*Overall*, I'll agree that Harry often does whatever he wants & 
ignores what he is told, but in this case....


Kneasy remarked: 
> What you call Grades and what we call Marks seem to have absolutely
> no effect on a student's progress at Hogwarts. None. Zilch. Nothing
> Snape does or says in this respect has any consequence whatsoever.
> Hogwarts seems to be a schoolchild's dream where nobody fails an
> exam. Ever. Or not the end of year exam, anyway.
> 
> The only exam that matters in Harry's school career are the OWLs - 
> and guess what? Snape doesn't set it and doesn't get to mark it. 

Susan again:
Now **this** is an argument to really knock me down on the turf.  
Yes, I think you're right!  In spite of the actual zeros and the 
suspected zeros, Harry's moving right along w/ his classmates.  
Since his OWL will be scored by someone else and since there is no 
Institution of Higher Wizarding Learning of which we're aware, then 
you're probably right that these grades won't matter a whole heck of 
a lot as long as Harry can manage to slip through his OWL.

> So far as Potions is concerned, all is sound and fury and 
> signifying nothing. 

Ah, is it a tale told by an idiot, then, too? Do tell! ;-)

Siriusly Snapey Susan, conceding most of her argument.







From melclaros at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 27 17:58:17 2004
From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 17:58:17 -0000
Subject: Evaluating Snape (was: Re: Lupin's resentment )
In-Reply-To: <c43u4u+c258@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c44fbp+h817@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94196

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" 
<susiequsie23 at s...> wrote:
> 
> SUSAN AGAIN:
> Yup, yup, yup, I seem to be guilty of EXTRAPOLATING to a degree 
that > was inappropriate on the grades.  In skimming through the 
books last > evening, it became apparent that, if anything, it 
was "Points Abuse" > even more than "Grade Abuse" that was coloring 
my impressions. :-) 
> Okay, for grins, I'll set out briefly what I found on this 
*general* 
> topic, expanding it to the wider area of Snape's treatment of 
Harry 
> & the Gryffindors.


 
> CHAMBER OF SECRETS:
> "Professor Severus Snape was Harry's least favorite teacher.  
Harry 
> also happened to be Snape's least favorite student. 

Mel
I'd imagine Neville might argue that and would have a good case. 
Harry's decidedly self-centered POV.


SSS:
COS
> [The lesson where Harry's to create a diversion for 
> Hermione.]  "Snape prowled through the fumes, making waspish 
remarks > about the Gryffindors' work while the Slytherins sniggered 
> appreciatively. Draco Malfoy, who was Snape's favorite student, 
kept > flickering puffer-fish eyes at Ron and Harry, who knew that 
if they > retaliated they would get detention faster than you could 
> say 'Unfair.'" [US, p. 186]  [Harry **was** breaking the rules in 
> this lesson!]



Mel:
And don't forget that the trio didn't just break the rules. They 
casued a dangerous explosion and then robbed a teachers's private 
stores. I, personally, don't remember any consequences of this 
action.



SSS:
> Mel said previously that:
> "In *every single* one of those lessons (even the one in which 
SNAPE 
> HIMSELF breaks Harry's sample flask) Harry has screwed up his 
potion 
> due to carelessness, inattentiveness or nosiness."  I would agree 
> that certainly Harry is to blame sometimes, but I would also 
provide 
> this:
> 
> "They had Potions that afternoon, which was an unqualified 
> disaster.  Try as Harry might, he couldn't get his Confusing 
> Concoction to thicken, and Snape, standing watch with an air of 
> vindictive pleasure, scribbled something that looked suspiciously 
> like a zero onto his notes before moving away."  [US, p. 318]  No, 
> we don't KNOW he gave a zero, but we do see that Harry was trying 
> not to mess up.


Mel:
"Try as he might" means what? He did something wrong. We have canon 
evidence that he seems incapeable of following simple directions 
even when written out right in front of him. Usually because he's 
too busy nosing into someone elses business during class. Heaven 
forbid he should ask for HELP. His potion failed. It doesn't say 
anyone elses, or everyone else's did. He got it WRONG.





SSS:
> GOBLET OF FIRE:
> "...Snape--Harry's least favorite person at Hogwarts.  Harry's 
> loathing of Snape was matched only by Snape's hatred of him, a 
> hatred which had, if possible, intensified last year, when Harry 
had 
> helped Sirius escape right under Snape's overlarge nose...." [US, 
p. 
> 175]

Mel
Again Harry's POV. Let's ask  Neville about who Snape's least-
favorite student is again. 



> 
> [Draco & Harry get into a pre-class fight over Draco's comments 
> about Hermione & Ron.  BOTH fire spells which collide & wreak 
havoc 
> on others--Hermione's teeth & Goyle's nose.]  After cruelly 
telling 
> Hermione he saw no difference in her teeth, Snape says, "'Let's 
> see,' he said, in his silkiest voice. 'Fifty points from 
Gryffindor 
> and a detention each for Potter and Weasley." [US, pp. 298-300]




Mel:
Yawn. 


SSS: 
> ORDER OF THE PHOENIX:
> [First lesson of the year--a "difficult, fiddly potion" was 
> assigned.  Harry's didn't look right, and neither did Ron's, 
> Seamus's or Goyle's.]  "At Harry's cauldron, however, Snape 
stopped, 
> looking down at Harry with a horrible smirk on his face.  'Potter, 
> what is this supposed to be?'... [Harry replied, Snape asks if he 
> can read, Harry sees his error.]... "'I forgot the hellebore....' 
> 'I know you did, Potter, which means that this mess is utterly 
> worthless.  Evanesco.'  ...His potion had been no worse than 
> Ron's...or Neville's...yet it was he, Harry, who would be 
receiving 
> zero marks for the day's work.


Mel: According to *Harry* his potion was no worse than anyone elses. 
Rons may have been the wrong color, Goyles might have been 
flammable, but for all we know Harry's was deadly poisonous.




> part one of Strengthening Solution.]  "Determined not to give 
Snape 
> an excuse to fail him this lesson, Harry read & reread every line 
of 
> the instructions on the blackboard at least three times before 
> acting on them." [In his own assessment, it wasn't perfect but 
still 
> good.  He delivered a flagon to Snape.  Again, I point out that he 
> *is* trying.] [US, pp. 309-310]


Mel:
And LOOK! He managed a potion!


> 
> [Part 2 of Strengthening Solution.  Harry allows himself to be 
> distracted by Umbridge's questioning of Snape and his potion 
begins 
> to go bad.]  "'No marks again, then, Potter,' said Snape 
> maliciously, emptying Harry's cauldron with a wave of his 
> hand.  'You will write me an essay on the correct composition of 
> thie potion, indicating how & why you went wrong....'" [US, pp. 
> 364]  [I understand the assignment at the end, but no points for 
> part one? taking the potion away before he was done? *Does he do 
> this to anyone else?*]



Mel:
Why should he get points? Because he did what was expected of him? 
Points are for exceptional work or some such nonsense. Not for 
turning in a barely passable product at the end of a 2 hour lab. We 
can safely assume he got a grade on what he turned in--a grade which 
was not a zero.


SSS:
> [Snape, post-Occlumency ending, ignores Harry in class.  This 
helps 
> Harry, who was pleased w/ his Invigoration Draught.]  "At the end 
of 
> the lesson he scooped some of the potion into a flask, corked it, 
> and took it up to Snape's desk for marking, feeling that he might 
at 
> last have scraped an E.  He has just turned away when he heard a 
> smashing noise....  His potion sample lay in pieces on the floor, 
> and Snape was surveying him with a look of gloating 
> pleasure.  'Whoops,' he said softly.  'Another zero, then, 
> Potter....'" [US, pp. 660-661]
> 


Mel:
Inexcusable behaviour in a teacher--psychological abuse for those 
who are into that. But also one of the funniest scenes in the book.


Point is, I suppose that whether Snape's a good teacher is by now a 
moot point. Harry's had him 5 years and is STUCK with him. He should 
certainly, by now, have learned to shut up and read the 
instructions. He doesn't even have potions every day. There's plenty 
of time to be nosy and inattentive elsewhere. The kid in uneducable.

Mel





From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Sat Mar 27 18:02:44 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 18:02:44 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c44bb8+r3rp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c44fk4+hve9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94197

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "maidne" <maidne at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" 
<willsonkmom at m...> 
> > Now, Snape had embarrassed Neville at he beginning of the class.  
> So 
> > the drag image may have been Lupin's way of getting back.  I 
still 
> > think Snape was "telling" Lupin something when he reminded him 
that 
> > Neville Longbottom was in the class.
> > 
> 
> Susan:  
> I never thought of that before.  Maybe he was insinuating that 
> Neville's worst fear might take the form of Crucio wielding DE's?

I have never posted this devious little thought I've had before.  
What if Snape was a part of this "happy party" as well.  perhaps the 
reason this charming group of DE's was ever caught was that there was 
a witness in the form of a fellow DE named Snape who extracted 
himself as quickly as he could to turn them in.  Perhaps Neville hit 
the door of Potions Class desperately afraid of Snape for a very real 
reason, unrelated to his grades. Boggart!Snape *was* reaching for his 
wand, not his grade book.

Sue, Who is ducking.




From vmonte at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 27 18:07:21 2004
From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 18:07:21 -0000
Subject: Clue that Dumbledore and Harry had a previous relationship...
Message-ID: <c44fsp+ln6i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94198

Sorry I've been thinking for almost a year now that Ron=DD due to 
time travel.  I know that since my original post many other people 
had separately formulated the same theory. I know that many other 
fans hate this theory (which of course like any other may well be 
wrong). 
But I just reread parts of OOTP and came across this quote,which I 
think I previously misread.  (I'm sure someone else has noticed this 
quote so please forgice me if I'm rehashing something.)  

>From OotP, U.S. version, page 828 -- 
Dumbledore says to Harry:
"I was sure that if he realized that our relationship was - or had 
ever been - closer than that of headmaster and pupil, he would seize 
his chance to use you as a means to spy on me." 

At first you think that Dumbledore avoided looking in Harry's eyes 
during OOTP because he did not want Voldemort to know that he and 
Harry had more than just a student teacher relationship?  But if you 
read that quote again the words "or had ever been" are actually 
highlighted/separated from the rest of the sentence.  

Is this inferring a previous relationship (different from DD & 
Harry's current relationship)that Voldemort knows nothing about?  

If DD is Ron it makes sense.  If Voldemort were to find out that 
DD=Ron then Ron would also become a target of the DEs.   
vmonte




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sat Mar 27 18:08:31 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 18:08:31 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c44fk4+hve9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c44fuv+h82q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94199

Sue wrote:
> 
> I have never posted this devious little thought I've had before.  
> What if Snape was a part of this "happy party" as well.  perhaps 
the 
> reason this charming group of DE's was ever caught was that there 
was 
> a witness in the form of a fellow DE named Snape who extracted 
> himself as quickly as he could to turn them in.  Perhaps Neville 
hit 
> the door of Potions Class desperately afraid of Snape for a very 
real 
> reason, unrelated to his grades. Boggart!Snape *was* reaching for 
his 
> wand, not his grade book.
> 
> Sue, Who is ducking.

Potioncat:
I've had the same thought.  Except, didn't the torturing of the 
Longbottoms happen after LV's fall?  So would Snape have needed to 
be there (undercover) at that time?  
Potioncat




From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Sat Mar 27 18:22:13 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 18:22:13 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c44fuv+h82q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c44gol+dck8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94200

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at m...> 
wrote:
> Sue wrote:
> > 
> > I have never posted this devious little thought I've had before.  
> > What if Snape was a part of this "happy party" as well.  perhaps 
> the 
> > reason this charming group of DE's was ever caught was that there 
> was 
> > a witness in the form of a fellow DE named Snape who extracted 
> > himself as quickly as he could to turn them in.  Perhaps Neville 
> hit 
> > the door of Potions Class desperately afraid of Snape for a very 
> real 
> > reason, unrelated to his grades. Boggart!Snape *was* reaching for 
> his 
> > wand, not his grade book.
> > 
> > Sue, Who is ducking.
> 
> Potioncat:
> I've had the same thought.  Except, didn't the torturing of the 
> Longbottoms happen after LV's fall?  So would Snape have needed to 
> be there (undercover) at that time?  
> Potioncat

We know it happened after, yes.  According to DD, people were 
beginning to feel safe, that is why it was so shocking. What we do 
not know is when Snape stopped participating.  He could have been 
trying to "out" the DE's who had not already been caught.  In all 
fairness to Snape (and as a fence sitter, I must try to be fair), he 
could have been trying to get away and get help but he was too late. 
Perhaps the reason the Longbottoms are alive at all is because he got 
the "right" people there in time to catch the torturers and save 
their lives but sadly,not their sanity.

Sad and more sad,
Sue




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sat Mar 27 18:30:59 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 18:30:59 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c44gol+dck8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c44h93+rf3l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94201

Sue wrote:
 What we do  not know is when Snape stopped participating.  He could 
have been trying to "out" the DE's who had not already been caught.  
In all fairness to Snape (and as a fence sitter, I must try to be 
fair), he  could have been trying to get away and get help but he 
was too late. Perhaps the reason the Longbottoms are alive at all is 
because he got the "right" people there in time to catch the 
torturers and save their lives but sadly,not their sanity.
> 


Potioncat: 
I could buy this, along with the idea that he could have been at the 
Potters in October, still acting as a DE.  

My one thought is what Bellatrix would think about the fact  that he 
wasn't caught when the other 3 were.
Potioncat




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 27 18:32:46 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 18:32:46 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore's bad descisions?
In-Reply-To: <c436h4+enuf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c44hce+fe5a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94202

I (Carol) wrote:
<snip> I do know that I'm just assuming, but given Sirius's violent
> > temper and general rashness, his attempt to murder Severus when
they were both sixteen, his later determination to commit the murder
he was imprisoned for, his statement at Godric's Hollow (recalled by
Hagrid in PoA) that he wouldn't be needing his motorcycle any more,
and his mad laugh as he's hauled away from the scene of Peter's crime,
I'm convinced that he intended not only to confront Peter but to get
revenge, either by killing him or by seriously and permanently
injuring him. No proof, of course, just canon evidence of his
temperament and behavior on other occasions.  Then again, I'm not a
Sirius fan and maybe I tend to judge him a bit harshly (as others
judge Snape). <snip>

Sue responded: 
<snip> Sirius simply told Snape how 
> to get into the tunnel under the tree. He did *not* offer him candy 
> and tell him there was a great treat waiting for him there. He said 
> something like "If you want to see what we are up to, just prod the 
> knot and you can find out." It was Snape, of his own free will, who 
> went into the tunnel. The *only* person who *ever* refers to what 
> Sirius did as attempted murder is Snape himself.  I cannot imagine
DD allowing a student to stay in school whom he believed capable of 
> murder for pleasure, much less trusting him enough to make him a
part of a secret organization with the sole purpose of defeating evil. 

> <snip> Just to throw this out, why cry (I'm talking JKR here) over a 
> character that would attempt murder as a teenager, trying to kill 
> someone who will, in the end, turn out to be basically benevolent?  
> No.  Sirius may be rash but he is no murderer and he never was.  If 
> Snape was stupid enough to go into that tunnel with the hope of 
> getting a few of his enemies expelled, he took his own chances.  It 
> certainly wasn't noble, but IMHO neither is much (or any) of what 
> Snape does.  They were both 16, they were both stupid and fortunately 
> for everyone involved, James had more than air between the ears.
> 

Carol:
You could be right about the Prank. Nevertheless, he did tempt
Severus, IMO a very Mephistophilean act. Was it calculated vengeance
or another case of Sirius not thinking things through, not
anticipating consequences? I don't know, but I confess that I don't
much like the young Sirius, who appears to be as arrogant and haughty
as his cousin Bellatrix or at her sentencing. (I'm not sure whether
haughty regality is in the Black blood or his upbringing. Probably
both. There are traces of it even after Azkaban.) The recklessness is
also there before and after Azkaban (turning into a dog to accompany a
werewolf on his nightly rounds is not the act of a sensible person. If
Sirius had been the werewolf, would Remus have turned into an animal
to accompany him? Would he have encouraged James to do it? Hard to
say, but I don't think so.) There's also no question that the
post-Azkaban Sirius is capable of great violence, slashing up the Fat
Lady's portrait and breaking into a room full of thirteen-year-old
boys with a twelve-inch knife in his hand to murder a rat/man, a
bloody and violent act of hatred and desperation. Given the grief and
rage Sirius must have felt at the death of his much-loved best friend
and the betrayal by another friend that he had trusted, I think that
in this instance, too, he was motivated by hatred and desperation,
with just enough awareness of consequences to realize that he should
not let Hagrid suspect his intentions and that he would not need his
motorcycle, as he would be a hunted man whether he killed Peter or
not. If Hagrid had let him take Harry, which of course he couldn't do,
Sirius might have tried to clear his name and curb his reckless
tendencies to try to be a good guardian, but with the "loss" of Harry,
too, he had nothing to live for except, apparently, vengeance. He
should have gone to Dumbledore or Remus to explain the Secret Keeper
switch. Instead he went after Peter, either to confront him, as you
say, or to kill him. Either way, not the decision of a rational man.
BTW I never said he planned to murder anyone for pleasure, only that
he's reckless, capable of great violence, indifferent to the suffering
of anyone he dislikes (Snape or Kreacher), and vengeful toward anyone
he thinks has betrayed him. I do pity him for his twelve years in
Azkaban, his loneliness, and his entrapment in a house he hates, and I
don't feel any antipathy toward him. But "murderer he never was"? He
would have murdered Peter if it hadn't been for Harry.

Sue wrote:
><snip> JKR has said we will learn more about "the 
> prank" in later books.  I hope it clears up what led up to that 
> point. 

Carol:
So do I. But it will be hard to convince me that Severus "deserved" to
be endangered by a werewolf or that Sirius was in any way justified in
endangering him in that way.

Sue wrote:
 Imagine the shock of many on the list if it turns out that 
> Snape and his good friends Bellatrix Black and the Lestrange
brothers had spent some time in the home of Sirius and Regulus Black 
> recruiting Regulus to join a certain organization bent on
eliminating all of the "Mudbloods and Muggles".  And despite a certain
older brother begging and pleading, Regulus's best friend Severus
convinced him to jinx his brother, expose his friend Lupin to the
Black family and cause Sirius to never be able to return home again. 
Just one way out speculation but the possibilities are endless.

Carol:
I very much doubt that Snape recruited Regulus Black, but I think that
Regulus's death could have been the turning point for Snape, the thing
that convinced him to turn away from LV to Dumbledore. As you say, the
possibilities are endless and we can only wait and see.
>
Sue again: 
> I'm not willing to commit myself to ESE!Snape, but I don't buy any 
> version of FallenAngel!Snape or Benevolent!Snape either.
> 
> Sue, who is absolutely not on the fence when it comes to Sirius or 
> Lupin

Carol: I absolutely don't think that Snape is a fallen angel but I
don't think he's ESE, either. He could have been a Lucius Malfoy but
he isn't. His motives are mysterious and intriguing. Sirius, OTOH, is
a damaged, flawed man whose recklessness makes him his own worst
enemy. No mystery to him, or not enough to interest someone like me.

Carol, who finds fences, whether they're picket or chicken wire,
extremely uncomfortable places and is absolutely not on the fence
regarding Snape




From vmonte at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 27 18:45:31 2004
From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 18:45:31 -0000
Subject: Evaluating Snape (was: Re: Lupin's resentment )
In-Reply-To: <c44fbp+h817@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c44i4b+pntr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94203

Mel wrote:
Point is, I suppose that whether Snape's a good teacher is by now a 
moot point. Harry's had him 5 years and is STUCK with him. He should 
certainly, by now, have learned to shut up and read the 
instructions. He doesn't even have potions every day. There's plenty 
of time to be nosy and inattentive elsewhere. The kid in uneducable.

vmonte responds:

My feeling is that in book 6 Minerva will make good on her word that 
she will make sure that Harry will become his desired profession.

I think that Harry is often a goof off in school and often relies on 
Hermione (Ron too for that matter) to save the day. 

(By the way do you think Snape's treatment of Hermione is justified? 
Would you say that she is ever unprepared for class, doesn't listen, 
is uneducable, etc. Maybe Snape doesn't like her because she is a 
know-it-all? Or maybe he doesn't like her because she has Muggle 
parents?! Is being a racist ok?) 

As for Harry...
I think that MM is going to straighten him out!  And unlike Snape, 
she will have the right teaching approach.   

vmonte




From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Sat Mar 27 18:49:16 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 18:49:16 -0000
Subject: Evaluating Snape (was: Re: Lupin's resentment )
In-Reply-To: <c44epi+q3k6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c44ibc+erb7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94204

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" <susiequsie23 at s...> 
wrote:
> 
> Ah, is it a tale told by an idiot, then, too? Do tell! ;-)
> 

Quite  possibly. And there are those that would agree with you.

But I didn't pen the post specifically to refute yours; it just seemed
a convenient juncture at which to join the thread. Sorry if you feel
singled out. 

Snape is not meant to be a likeable person. Naturally enough, lots
of people go along with that, just as JKR seems to have intended.
Splendid! All according to plan so far. But I become bemused when 
posters start thinking up real-world demeanors to charge him with.
It seems so incongruous to level charges like mental abuse when
there is no evidence that Harry has been affected in the slightest
by anything Snape has thrown at him. If he were affected I'm sure
JKR would have brought it to the surface by now.

Especially so when the charge doesn't  exist in the country where 
Snape is based. I'd never heard of 'Grade abuse' until it was posted 
on site. Perhaps I'm behind the times. Cynically, I'd not be surprised
if in the majority off cases it wasn't a professional educationalists/
social scientists phrase for "Doesn't  deserve the marks but needs 
an excuse to get a pass." But  what  do  I  know.

Kneasy







From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 27 19:19:32 2004
From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 19:19:32 -0000
Subject: FILK: Could He Be The Heir?
Message-ID: <c44k44+qhul@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94205

Song #13 from my CoS musical, A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to 
the Chamber (three to go)

Could He Be The Heir? (Cos, Chap. 11)

To the tune of Love Is In The Air, cut from Sondheim's A Funny Thing 
Happened on the Way to the Forum

NOTE: This "pretty and delicate" song was the original opening number 
of Forum, but was replaced by the more robust Comedy Tonight. It can 
be heard on the 3-CD RCA set "A Collector's Sondheim," but 
unfortunately no MIDI or RealAudio

Dedicated to Suzanne Chiles

THE SCENE: After the attack on Justin, Hufflepuffs are more convinced 
than ever that Harry is the infamous Heir of Slytherin 

HANNAH & ERNIE
Could he be the Heir?
We whisper
Tension in the air
Grows crisper

With constrictors he cuts capers
Vents to vipers give us vapors
He is hissing us down 

Potter we should not
Be trustin'
He has formed this plot
`Gainst Justin.
Fletchley made mistakes repeatin'
His admission into Eton
Harry's hissing us down

Potter's part and parcel
As a young Dark Lord Parseltongue
Our law is now martial 
With all the threats afoot
Mudbloods must all stay put.

FRED & GEORGE
Could he be the Heir?
You said it!
Hear us both declare
You'll dread it!
If he targets you for assault
You'll wake up as solid basalt
Quick now, out of his way
We'll hold him at bay
He is hissing us down 
Hissing us down
Hissing us down
Hissing us down
.

   -	CMC

HARRY POTTER FILKS 
http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm





From nkafkafi at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 27 19:43:29 2004
From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 19:43:29 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c44ar5+civ7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c44lh1+fas9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94206

> Pippin Wrote: 
> > As unprofessional as encouraging one of your students to 
> > conjure a fellow teacher in drag? Don't tell me there wasn't any 
> > other way to handle the situation. I'm sure if Neville's worst 
> fear 
> > had been Harry or McGonagall, Lupin would have thought of 
> > something. 
> 
> Potioncat:  I can't think of anything else myself, but I agree with 
> you.  This is too similar to the taunting from 5th year!  
> 
> Now, Snape had embarrassed Neville at he beginning of the class.  
So 
> the drag image may have been Lupin's way of getting back.  <snip>


Neri:
I have been carefully maintaining neutral silence during this surge 
of Snape posts (an administrative suggestion for the list elves: 
should we perhaps add to our SHIP, FILK and TBAY warnings also a 
SNAPE warning?) but this one had got to me. I just can't avoid 
replying. Did you thought for a minute, how is it that Neville's 
greatest fear is Snape? We are talking here about a boy whom both his 
parents were tortured to insanity. A boy whom his own uncle was 
throwing him out of third floor windows and piers. And what is he 
most terrified of? His teacher.

I may forgive Snape his long abuse of Harry because Harry is tough 
and can take it, and because there is a continuing vendetta between 
them. But one thing I don't forgive Snape is abusing Neville. Neville 
did nothing to Snape. Nevill's parents, as far as we know, did 
nothing to Snape either. Neville does not usually break rules. He 
tries very hard at class and fails because of personal issues. Almost 
all the students picks on Neville, from Draco et al to Fred and 
George. He is the butt of everyone's joke. But for a teacher to pick 
on him, this is a whole different matter. A teacher is a grown-up who 
is given an authority and responsibility for kids. To take advantage 
of this authority, this is a foul thing in my book. 

Ok, if someone detects a personal tone here, one is not wrong. I had 
the misfortune to have a teacher or two like Snape. I know the type 
well, and I believe JKR does also, since she describes it very 
accurately. They zoom like vultures on the weakest, most helpless kid 
in the class and abuse him repeatedly in front of all his classmates. 
I often wonder if the Snape's fans would have agreed that he'd teach 
their own child, and treat him/her as he treats Neville.

Lupin did not invent Neville's worst fear. He armed Neville against 
this fear. This is how a true teacher should behave, and for this 
deed alone I like Lupin.  

And since this is apparently the time to clarify my own position 
regarding our popular but controversial Potions Master, I don't see 
him as "a good guy even if he is not a nice guy". I see him as a bad 
guy who somehow ended up on the side of Good, and might yet redeem 
himself if he does more good than evil. He is one of the ways for JKR 
to point out that in realty there isn't a clean dichotomy between 
good and bad, and that sometime you need bad people on your side in 
order to fight even greater evil. And yes, he definitely has a 
certain misanthropic charm that I'm not immune to. Until he starts 
abusing Neville. I don't dislike talented misanthropic people, but 
please pick on someone your own size.


Neri





From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 27 19:46:12 2004
From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 19:46:12 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c447gp+fi3e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c44lm4+ggk2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94207

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> 
wrote:
> > But those, while being of debatable wisdom, are not 
> > unprofessional  behaviors towards another teacher.
> 
> We've seen that the teachers, *especially* the DADA professor, 
> are considered to have a professional responsibility to secure 
> the school against Dark Magic. Lupin has a responsibility to his 
> colleagues to protect them. Certainly this applies to keeping 
> track of the full moon and taking his potion on time.

Let us for the moment set aside the notion of professional 
responsibility. IMCO, we are seemingly discussing two similar but 
distinct things when we mention "professionalism."

1- What I am referring to is professionalism towards another 
teacher. Perhaps it's better said as "professional courtesy."

2- Whatever transgressions Lupin has committed, these were lapses on 
his part for which he fully accepted not only responsibility, but 
also the consequences. His lapses were not, and this is pellucidly 
clear (to me anyway), not willful actions.

It will prove interesting if, for whatever reason, Severus is shown 
to be some variant of, say, vampire (a hypothesis to which I adhere) 
and Lupin knew about it and said nothing. Especially since it was 
Severus who "accidentally" let it slip that Lupin was a werewolf.

-Joe in SoFla




From manawydan at ntlworld.com  Sat Mar 27 20:07:00 2004
From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 20:07:00 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Here's a Crazy thought...
References: <1080401504.8146.79568.m17@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <002701c41437$110df260$684e6751@f3b7j4>

No: HPFGUIDX 94208

First Potioncat wrote:
>> And how are we going to feel if JKR shows us an episode where Snape
>> did crucio or kill?  We certainly know he has a sadistic streak. Of
>> course the important part is that  he changed.
>
Then Silverthorne replies
> The most important will be *when* he did this killing/torturing.
> The next will be why he did it, and whether or not he had a choice in the
> matter.
> The third will be whether or not he believes in present time that what he
> did was right, or if he shows 'true remorse' for having done it.

I have no doubt whatsoever that Snape killed. I suspect that it's one of the
tests for a potential DE: go and bring me the heads of 3 Muggles, (or
something like that). But I don't think he took any pleasure in the
experience. It's worth speculating that the reason Regulus Black was killed
was that he couldn't bring himself to do the killing thing.

Here's another interesting speculation (which harks back to another recent
thread): I wonder if Snape was admitted to the DE inner circle, despite his
youth, because Voldemort wanted a potion that would make the effects of the
Imperius charm permanent...

I suppose that makes me yet another voter for the "DE Potionmaster" slant

Cheers

Ffred

O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon
Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion
Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri




From manawydan at ntlworld.com  Sat Mar 27 20:16:27 2004
From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 20:16:27 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Here's a Crazy thought...
References: <1080413371.5746.5941.m1@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <002c01c41438$62524760$684e6751@f3b7j4>

No: HPFGUIDX 94209

In reply to Ms Mo Me saying
> > Well, what if Snape was there and was involved in
> > saving Harry?  What if it was Snape that brought about
> > LV downfall? (Sort of a countercharm INCLUDING all
> > three Snape, HP, and Lily.),

Dave wrote

> Interesting... If nothing else, it would explain why Snape
> is *so* loathing of Harry: Because he's taking all the credit
> for Snape's act of heroism.

Here's another, equally simple explanation.

Snape did indeed try to thwart Voldemort at Godric's Hollow (the LOLLIPOP in
my hand will explain why)

He fails. "Lily's dead. Potter's brat is alive."

"How dare Potter's brat be alive when Lily's dead."

Snape spends the next 10 years chewing on that. When Harry eventually hoves
into view, he becomes the target for 10 years' worth of vented spleen

Cheers

Ffred

O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon
Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion
Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri




From Batchevra at aol.com  Sat Mar 27 20:22:48 2004
From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 15:22:48 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
Message-ID: <1c7.16ef7ae6.2d973c98@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94210


Harry is a young man who *should* know better than to go and do the
equivilent of read your diary. If it had been Hermione's, or Ron's, or even
Luna's, he would have refrained from doing it...and yet, here he is doing it
to *your* diary. Worse yet, he's snuck in while your back is turned to do
it, even though you and he both know he's on the honor system *not* to read
it while you go do whatever it was you went to do. Even worse, he's found
some of the worst moments in your life and is riffling through them
thoughtlessly (Harry is more interested in following his father around then
in realizing that he's messing with something personal and not meant for him
to see). You would not be mad at that point? You wouldn't want him to put
that diary down immediately and get out, even if only for a moment so you
can collect your thoughts at least, before you *really* go off half cocked
at the boy? Granted, I'll assume that you would not throw a jar of
cockroches (or have an equivically violent reaction)  at him as he exits the
room...you might even have the strength of will to call him back immediately
to work it out--but then, that would be you. Snape, due to his own
experiences, does not quite have that self control.

Silverthorne}

I want to say that you have some good points about Snape, but Harry would go 
into a diary of Hermione's, Ron's or Luna's. Remember Harry went into 
Dumbledore's pensieve in GOF. What you forget of Harry is that most of his life and 
even at Hogwarts, no adult has answered any of his questions that affect him. 
Hardly anyone who knows his parents has answered or even attempted to tell Harry 
about them. What Harry does is to get the answer himself and when Snape left 
the pensieve in a place that tempted Harry, he went and saw the memories. Was 
he right? no, but was Snape right in leaving the pensieve where Harry could 
see and have access, also Snape shows Harry how he uses the pensieve. He takes 
the memories out in front of Harry. To me that is teasing Harry into being 
curious about what is in the pensieve. Both behaviors are not the best, but as 
Snape is the adult, he has more fault IMHO.

Batchevra 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 27 20:59:39 2004
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 20:59:39 -0000
Subject: The immensely complex Homorphus Charm
In-Reply-To: <c41ap4+pf4n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c44pvr+s7ni@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94211

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jmgarciaiii" <jmgarciaiii at y...>
wrote:
> It's interesting that the discussion of Lupin pops up as I am 
> relistening (I alternate between reading & listening) to CoS (US 
> version). I mentioned the Homorphus Charm in a pervious post and--
> voila!--I run across it.
> 
> In Chapter 9:
> 
> <<
> 
> "... I put my wand to his throat -I then screwed up my remaining 
> strength and performed the immensely complex Homorphus Charm - ...- 
> the fur vanished - the fangs shrank - and he turned back into a man.
> Simple, yet effective - and another village will remember me forever
> as the hero who delivered them from the monthly terror of werewolf 
> attacks." 
> 
> >>
> 
> The following scenarios suggest themselves:
> 
> 1- Lockhart made up the whole thing.
> 2- Some poor wizard (or witch) actually managed the HC, Lockhart 
> smacked him (or her) with a memory charm and stole the credit.
> 2a- Lockhart will recover his memory ... and tell who was the person 
> who DID manage the HC,....
> 2b- Lockhart stays a babbling idiot and the secret is lost forever
> 3- Someone (Hermione?) remembers Lockhart talking/writing about the 
> HC and reconstructs it. ....
> 
> As I type it out, I am leaning towards #3.
> 
> Discuss.
> 
> -Joe in SoFla

bboy_mn:

Well, we can only speculate. Since it has been made clear that there
is no cure for being a werewolf, we can immediately eliminate that
possibility. 

Here is my take on that charm.

First, it is real. Second, it is not a 'medical' charm, but a
defensive charm. Third, someone somewhere in the future could actually
perform it. Logically, Hermione is the most likely candidate. 

As I said the charm does not cure werewolfism. It forces a werewolf
back into human form, and may force enough humanity back into the
person to stop a werewolf attack. 

The functional purpose of the charm is to force the person back to
human form, so that he can be identified. It's very very likely that a
werewolf living in a village is NOT going to spread that news around.
So, now, after the charm, the villagers have the culprit identified
and know who to watch out for. 

In addition to stopping a werewolf attack in progress, it could allow
the werewolf to be subdues and contained (locked up) until the full
moon wanes. 

I also believe that the charm is transient. That is, it's good for
maybe an hour. In that hours time, you must either flee, or capture
and imprison the werewolf.

Key points-

1.) Spell is transient or temporary. Best guest, it's good for an hour.
2.) Allows you to stop an attack in progress.
3.) Allows you to identify the werewolf.
4.) Allows you to subdue and contain the werewolf.
5.) Protects you from future attacks, because now you know who the
werewolf is. You can either force the person into a safe place (jail,
whatever) when the full moon approaches, you can drive him out of the
village, or sadly, the local villagers could kill the werewolf while
he was in human form.

I think that is enough. That is enough to make this charm an extremely
valuable tool in fighting werewolves. But based on Lockhart's
statement that it is 'immensely complex', not may people are able to
use it effectively. If there is an attack in progress, you get only 
ONE chance to get it right. Blow it, and at best you are bitten, at
worst, you are killed and eaten.

I guess the only way to know for sure is to wait and see if it
reappears in the book.

Just a few thoughts.

bboy_mn






From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Sat Mar 27 21:15:30 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 21:15:30 -0000
Subject: Evaluating Snape (was: Re: Lupin's resentment )
In-Reply-To: <c44fbp+h817@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c44qti+h9cv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94212

Mel:
> Inexcusable behaviour in a teacher--psychological abuse for those 
> who are into that. But also one of the funniest scenes in the book.
> 
> Point is, I suppose that whether Snape's a good teacher is by now 
> a moot point. Harry's had him 5 years and is STUCK with him. He 
> should certainly, by now, have learned to shut up and read the 
> instructions. He doesn't even have potions every day. There's 
> plenty of time to be nosy and inattentive elsewhere. The kid in 
> uneducable.

Susan:
Other than saying I disagree that Harry is uneducable [I'd certainly 
say he doesn't learn well w/ *Snape's* present system], I'm letting 
this argument go for two reasons:  1) I've already admitted to 
falling off my horse on the "grade abuse" topic; and 2) You labeled 
this as "inexcusable behavior in a teacher", and *that* is what I 
care about the most.  So we're in agreement on that part!

Mel:
> Heaven forbid he should ask for HELP. 

Susan:
One little question remains for me, though.  Regardless of blame, 
fault, appropriateness or inappropriateness of behaviors of either 
party--all of that stuff--just given the history between them, if 
YOU were Harry, would you ask Snape for help??  

Siriusly Snapey Susan







From melclaros at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 27 21:20:38 2004
From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 21:20:38 -0000
Subject: Evaluating Snape (was: Re: Lupin's resentment )
In-Reply-To: <c44i4b+pntr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c44r76+l52@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94213

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" <vmonte at y...> wrote:
> 
> (By the way do you think Snape's treatment of Hermione is 
justified? 
> Would you say that she is ever unprepared for class, doesn't 
listen, 
> is uneducable, etc. Maybe Snape doesn't like her because she is a 
> know-it-all? Or maybe he doesn't like her because she has Muggle 
> parents?! Is being a racist ok?) 



Except for one incident, which has been discussed ad-nauseum here, 
there really is very little to be said at all about 
Snape's "treatment" of Hermione. He doesn't appear to partucularly 
like *any* students and that includes "his slytherins". Hermione is 
a teacher's nightmare. She IS a know it all and a bossy, aggressive 
one. Students like that cow other students who fall into a "oh she's 
going to answer anyway, why bother," line of thinking when her type 
is in the room. There are only so many times a teacher can say "Why 
don't we give someone else a chance," or "I'm sure you've done the 
reading, Miss Granger, shall we let someone else show us that they 
have as well?" before even the sweetest, calmest "Miss Honey" type 
blows a gasket. 
Snape's gaskets are leaking already. 

Most of Snape's comments aren't *to* Hermione, they're to others--
Harry or Neville--or even Lupin. They are belittling to those 
students, saying they need her help to do anything properly. Sure 
it's snide but it's also, in a very Snapish way, saying "I know who 
the brains are here. I know where you'd be if you didn't have her 
doing it all FOR you."
And he's right. 
How many essays has she re-written in the common room?

It's also interesting to note that aside from Dumbledore (and his 
defense is dodgy at best) Hermione is Snape's greatest defender. 
She's not walking around moaning about being treated unfairly. If 
anyone was going to bring up the unfairness of a teacher, it would 
be our Miss Hermione SPEW Granger. As far as we know, she never 
mentioned the unmentionable *cough-teeth-cough* incident either. No 
sign of lasting mental anguish there.
 
It's a given. Snape is NOT a nice person. JKR herself has said he 
abuses his authority. There's plenty to lay on him, why look for 
stuff that's *not* really there to add to it?

Mel








From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sat Mar 27 21:20:44 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 21:20:44 -0000
Subject: Evaluating Snape (was: Re: Lupin's resentment )
In-Reply-To: <c44qti+h9cv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c44r7c+9g8s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94214


 
> Susan:
> One little question remains for me, though.  Regardless of blame, 
> fault, appropriateness or inappropriateness of behaviors of either 
> party--all of that stuff--just given the history between them, if 
> YOU were Harry, would you ask Snape for help?? 

Potioncat:
Actually, Susan, once you laid all the episodes out in one place, I 
thought, it's a wonder Harry doesn't hate him even more!

On a separate note, I wonder why Bill Weasley doesn't like Snape 
(per Ginny in OoP)
Potioncat 





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sat Mar 27 21:23:58 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 21:23:58 -0000
Subject: Evaluating Snape (was: Re: Lupin's resentment )
In-Reply-To: <c44r76+l52@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c44rde+vh3u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94215

Mel wrote:
> 
> It's also interesting to note that aside from Dumbledore (and his 
> defense is dodgy at best) Hermione is Snape's greatest defender. 
> She's not walking around moaning about being treated unfairly. If 
> anyone was going to bring up the unfairness of a teacher, it would 
> be our Miss Hermione SPEW Granger. As far as we know, she never 
> mentioned the unmentionable *cough-teeth-cough* incident either. 
No 
> sign of lasting mental anguish there.

Potioncat:
Hermione has done a lot of research into different topics: animagi, 
vampires, not sure what else.  I get the feeling she knows something 
about Snape that she hasn't shared with the boys.
Potioncat




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Sat Mar 27 21:27:18 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 21:27:18 -0000
Subject: Clue that Dumbledore and Harry had a previous relationship...
In-Reply-To: <c44fsp+ln6i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c44rjm+3j2n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94216

vmonte wrote:
> But I just reread parts of OOTP and came across this quote,which I 
> think I previously misread.  (I'm sure someone else has noticed 
> this quote so please forgice me if I'm rehashing something.)  
> 
> From OotP, U.S. version, page 828 -- 
> Dumbledore says to Harry:
> "I was sure that if he realized that our relationship was - or had 
> ever been - closer than that of headmaster and pupil, he would 
> seize his chance to use you as a means to spy on me." 

> Is this inferring a previous relationship (different from DD & 
> Harry's current relationship)that Voldemort knows nothing about?  
> 
> If DD is Ron it makes sense.  If Voldemort were to find out that 
> DD=Ron then Ron would also become a target of the DEs.   


Siriusly Snapey Susan:
I always thought this remark simply meant that--because he has let 
Harry down, because he has failed in some ways, and because Harry is 
so angry with him--DD is wondering if their close relationship might 
be *over*.  Comments?

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From nkafkafi at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 27 21:51:28 2004
From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 21:51:28 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Harry=92s_anger:_teen_angst_or_channeling_Voldemort=3F?=
Message-ID: <c44t10+h6g8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94217

(with the usual apology to those who might have raised this point 
before)

I know that many list members, me included, have felt uneasy about 
Harry's anger in OotP. It wasn't in character, and made him less 
likeable than he is in the previous books. Sure, Harry has many 
reasons for anger in OotP, and he is 15 and has the hormone surge 
(thought I find it a terrible clich?, and somehow Ron and Hermione 
manage to avoid the same fate). But isn't it obvious that Harry's 
anger, or at least the worst of it, is simply channeling LV's 
emotions through the scar link?

The telling part is that Harry is not just angry in OotP, he actually 
*enjoys* his friends' hurt. This is definitely not Harry. Our Harry 
doesn't have a sadistic streak in him. Well, perhaps towards Dudley 
in moments of discord, or towards Snape, but certainly not towards 
Ron and Hermione. Yet JKR has made a point of describing Harry "not 
sorry at all" or even actually taking pleasure in hurting his friends 
at least four times in OotP (and I might have missed more cases). The 
quotes are below for those who want to dwell on the details. Note 
especially "deep satisfaction" and "vindictive pleasure". Note also 
the words indicating the unexplained suddenness of the anger 
feelings: "for a split second", "nasty impulse", "anger that had just 
flared so unexpectedly". This is reminiscent of the sudden surges of 
hatred that Harry feels towards DD in two different cases, which we 
know for sure are LV channeling.

The quotes:
---------------------------------------------
OotP (US), Ch. 4, p. 63:
'He seemed to think it was best,' said Hermione rather 
breathlessly. 'Dumbledore, I mean.'
    'Right,' said Harry. He noticed that her hands, too, bore the 
marks of Hedwig's beak and found that he was not at all sorry.

OotP (US), Ch. 5, p. 91:
'Harry'll tell me and Hermione everything you say anyway!' said Ron 
hotly. 'Won't ? won't you?' he added uncertainly, meeting Harry's 
eyes.
    For a split second, Harry considered telling Ron that he wouldn't 
tell him a single word, that he could try a taste of being kept in 
the dark and see how he liked it. But the nasty impulse vanished as 
they looked at each other.
    'Course I will,' Harry said.

OotP (US), Ch. 12, p. 235
'Poisonous toadstools don't change their spots,' said Ron 
sagely. 'Anyway, I've always thought Dumbledore was cracked to trust 
Snape. Where's the evidence he ever really stopped working for You-
Know-Who?'
    'I think Dumbledore's probably got plenty of evidence, even if he 
doesn't share it with you, Ron,' snapped Hermione.
    'Oh, shut up, the pair of you,' said Harry heavily, as Ron opened 
his mouth to argue back. Hermione and Ron both froze, looking angry 
and offended. 'Can't you give it a rest?' said Harry. 'You're always 
having a go at each other, it's driving me mad.' And abandoning his 
shepherd's pie, he swung his schoolbag back over his shoulder and 
left them sitting there.
    He walked up the marble staircase two steps at a time, past the 
many students hurrying towards lunch. The anger that had just flared 
so unexpectedly still blazed inside him, and the vision of Ron and 
Hermione's shocked faces afforded him a sense of deep satisfaction. 
Serve them right, he thought, why can't they give it a rest . . . 
bickering all the time . . . it's enough to drive anyone up the 
wall . . .

OotP (US), Ch. 30, p. 681
'You can't tell me you've stopped having funny dreams,' Hermione said 
now, 'because Ron told me you were muttering in your sleep again last 
night.'
    Harry threw Ron a furious look. Ron had the grace to look ashamed 
of himself.
    'You were only muttering a bit,' he mumbled 
apologetically. 'Something about "just a bit further".'
    'I dreamed I was watching you lot play Quidditch,' Harry lied 
brutally. 'I was trying to get you to stretch out a bit further to 
grab the Quaffle.'
    Ron's ears went red. Harry felt a kind of vindictive pleasure; he 
had not, of course, dreamed anything of the sort.
---------------------------------------------

Each of these small episodes by itself could have been only teen 
angst, but taken together they are telling. Of course, we see Harry 
having surges of anger towards many other people in OotP, but it is 
especially out-of-character when it is directed towards his close 
friends.
  
Neri






From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net  Sat Mar 27 22:20:20 2004
From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 16:20:20 -0600
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=5BHPforGrownups=5D_Harry's_anger:_teen_angst_or_chann?=
	=?iso-8859-1?Q?eling_Voldemort=3F?=
References: <c44t10+h6g8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000b01c41449$b1870300$05030f04@dslverizon.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 94218

{Neri}

Each of these small episodes by itself could have been only teen
angst, but taken together they are telling. Of course, we see Harry
having surges of anger towards many other people in OotP, but it is
especially out-of-character when it is directed towards his close
friends.


{Silverthorne}

Wow....thought provoking and a good point as well. That is one possibility I
did *not* consider at all (my bad since I keep yelling about looking at all
angles on a character's behaivior behaivor before judging their actions).
And considering the *obvious* evidence that Harry was a 'channel' for 'ol
Moldy Voldy at least once in the book....hmmmmm.

I may change my stance on Harry here a bit once I re-read the books with
this in mind.

Thank you for a new insight!


*Sudders at the thought of what Harry might do when it's Voldemort's 'time
of the month' so to speak if this hypothosis is correct...:P*

Anne






From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sat Mar 27 23:03:14 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 23:03:14 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c44lh1+fas9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4517i+k8ek@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94219

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" 
<nkafkafi at y...> wrote:
> > Pippin Wrote: 
> > > As unprofessional as encouraging one of your students to 
 conjure a fellow teacher in drag? Don't tell me there wasn't any 
 other way to handle the situation. I'm sure if Neville's worst 
 fear had been Harry or McGonagall, Lupin would have thought of 
 something. 
> > 
> > Potioncat:  I can't think of anything else myself, but I agree 
with you.  This is too similar to the taunting from 5th year!  
> > 
> > Now, Snape had embarrassed Neville at he beginning of the 
class.   So  the drag image may have been Lupin's way of getting 
back.  <snip>
> 
> 
> Neri:
> I have been carefully maintaining neutral silence during this 
surge  of Snape posts  <snip> but this one had got to me. I just 
can't avoid  replying. Did you thought for a minute, how is it that 
Neville's  greatest fear is Snape? We are talking here about a 
boy whom both his  parents were tortured to insanity. A boy 
whom his own uncle was  throwing him out of third floor 
windows and piers. And what is he  most terrified of? His 
teacher.<<

Neville went to pieces in his very first potions class, before 
Snape had done anything to him. I think his great fear of Snape 
may have something to do with his mysterious past. That doesn't 
mean Snape is guilty. I keep thinking about children who have to 
be taught not to be afraid of firefighters in their turnout gear, so 
that they won't run away from their potential rescuers.  Snape 
bursting in, wand raised, to rescue baby Neville from the DE's 
who had tortured his parents would be a terrifying sight to a 
toddler. 

I am not going to defend Snape's teaching methods. I've had my 
share of Snapes and so have my children. If we didn't know that 
wizarding children don't come down with Muggle afflictions, I'd 
wonder if Neville had attention deficit disorder. I have seen a
brilliant, award-winning teacher whom I would love to study with 
turn into a complete monster trying to deal with undiagnosed 
ADD. This isn't the place to rehash MemoryCharm!Neville, but it 
wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that Neville has the magical 
equivalent of a learning disorder. 

But we were talking about Lupin. You understand that it's wrong 
for Snape to humiliate Neville in front of the whole class. But you 
don't see anything wrong or discourteous about Lupin doing the 
same thing to Snape? 

If the point of the exercise was to help Neville deal with his fear
of Snape, or to discourage Snape's bullying, then it  didn't work. 

"Snape didn't seem to find it funny. His eyes flashed menacingly 
at the very mention of Professor Lupin's name, and he was 
bullying Neville worse than ever." --PoA ch. 8

Lupin is too shrewd a judge of humanity, and Snape, not to have 
anticipated such an outcome. IMO,  Neville was  heartlessly 
manipulated into a situation that only made things worse for him. 


Pippin




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Sat Mar 27 23:06:59 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 23:06:59 -0000
Subject: Evaluating Snape (was: Re: Lupin's resentment )
In-Reply-To: <c44ibc+erb7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c451ej+bin7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94220

Kneasy wrote:
>So far as Potions is concerned, all is sound and fury and signifying
>nothing.

Siriusly Snapey Susan retorted:
>Ah, is it a tale told by an idiot, then, too? Do tell! ;-)

Kneasy:
> Quite  possibly. And there are those that would agree with you.


Siriusly Snapey Susan:
Ack!!  I was just picking up on the Shakespeare thread. *I* would 
not argue that Snape is an idiot.  Well, actually, I find his 
teaching methods sometimes idiotic, but beyond that, I do not see 
him as an idiot at all.  Quite the opposite.


You wrote that you weren't responding to me specifically, just 
joining the thread at that point.  That's fine.  I simply assumed, 
because of the part of my post you left in, that it was appropriate 
to ask you what I did:
******************
Kneasy said:
> And no, I don't blame Snape. All Harry has to do is *do what he's
> told*. But it seems that that is too much to ask. Just as in other
> aspects of his teenage progress, Harry doesn't listen, does what
> *he* wants and of course it's somebody else's fault when his
> brilliant strategies don't work out.

Susan again:
>Now, Kneasy, kindly tell me how *in the example I gave, above, to
>which your post was responding,* Harry didn't do what he was told?  
>What did he choose to do that was wrong, what did he not listen to?
>He MADE his potion & turned it in. Hermione cleared out his
>cauldron w/o his permission, and Snape "dropped" his potion sample.
>What did Harry do wrong here?
*****************
I'm sorry if I was wrong about that.  I was simply curious how you 
would find that Harry had not done what he was told in that one.


Kneasy:
> It seems so incongruous to level charges like mental abuse when
> there is no evidence that Harry has been affected in the slightest
> by anything Snape has thrown at him. If he were affected I'm sure
> JKR would have brought it to the surface by now.

Siriusly Snapey Susan:
No evidence??  You mean like his lack of progress w/ Occlumency?  I 
suspect if Lupin, McGonagall, DD, heck, throw in Flitwick, had been 
Harry's Occulumency teacher, he *would* have learned.  Their history-
-which is a *two-way street* of assumptions and nastiness and hatred-
-directly affects Harry's ability & willingness to learn 
Occlumency.  Notice I'm not absolving Harry of responsibility for 
his part in the matter, but I am saying that I do indeed believe 
that what Snape has thrown at Harry for five years *has* most 
definitely affected Harry in this way.
 

Kneasy:
> Especially so when the charge doesn't  exist in the country where 
> Snape is based. I'd never heard of 'Grade abuse' until it was 
> posted on site. 

Siriusly Snapey Susan:
Jeepers, I made that up!  I should NEVER have coined the phrase in 
the first place; it was half in jest, which clearly didn't come 
through.  I meant, simply, giving a student a grade less than what 
he deserved, but I'm sorry I brought it up. :-|  At this point, I'm 
not arguing about grades any longer--I mentioned that your argument 
about the role of grades at Hogwarts had swayed me a great deal.  I 
am arguing about Snape's lack of fairness towards Harry (and 
Hermione, Neville, Ron) and his general teaching practices & how I 
believe they have hurt these kids' learning.


Kneasy:
> Perhaps I'm behind the times. Cynically, I'd not be surprised
> if in the majority off cases it wasn't a professional 
> educationalists/ social scientists phrase for "Doesn't  deserve 
> the marks but needs an excuse to get a pass." But  what  do  I  
> know.

Siriusly Snapey Susan:
For what it's worth, I *was* one of those dreaded professional 
educators.  I do not believe in making excuses to pass students.  I 
never did it; I don't condone it.  I do believe that students do 
deserve teachers who TEACH, though, and who at least make a passable 
attempt to place fairness into their classrooms and--dare I say?--
respect there as well?  

As Vmonte just asked in another post, how fair is Snape's treatment 
of Hermione?  She knows her stuff, works hard, attempts to answer 
questions.  Snape will not abide her.  And *I* find that--and his 
treatment of Harry many times [not every time!]--to be reprehensible.

Siriusly Snapey Susan






From jennalei2003 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 27 23:03:10 2004
From: jennalei2003 at yahoo.com (electrogirl)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 15:03:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Here's a crazy thought
In-Reply-To: <1080413371.5746.5941.m1@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040327230310.13196.qmail@web60505.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94221

{Silverthorne}
>>Other than Dumbledore making statements throughoiut the book such as 
>>"He is now no more a Death Eater than I am", we don't know. We only know 
>>though Dumbledore that he has 'changed' sides for real--which would logically
>>indicate (in the case of most people),  that the values, opinions and
>>thought processes that led him to joining the DE in the first place have >>changed.


now electrogirl:
 
Unless of course, you subscribe to the ESE!Dumbledore faction.  "He is now no more a Death Eater than I am."  Mwahahahahaa.
 
I don't personally believe in Evil!DD (I'll be very sad if it's true). But that one line has always kind of bothered me.

***Jen

There's no cure for stupid.
 
Are you keeping up or do you need some kind of English-to-Constant-Pain-in-My-Ass translation?

Just because you're allowed to use magic now you don't have to whip your wand out for every tiny little thing!




From Snarryfan at aol.com  Sat Mar 27 22:37:54 2004
From: Snarryfan at aol.com (evita2fr)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 22:37:54 -0000
Subject: Harry, Snape,Occlumency
Message-ID: <c44vo2+r6p9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94222

*wave* Newbie here!

It was probably already discussed, but I saw this argument too often, 
I must say something.

Snape did a big mystake when he didn't force Harry to go on the 
Occlumency's lesson. I could agree with this if Harry was advanced in 
the subject and he needed one or two lessons to wrap all.But when 
they stopped, they are in April, they started in January, and Harry 
made no progress.You could say that Snape should teach better than 
what he did. But (in his standard) he made the best he could do.

Yes, he didn't explain how block a Legilimens. For the good reason 
the explanation didn't exist. It's instinctive. His exact words were
(UK version, chap24, p471):

"I have been told that you have already shown aptitude at resisting 
the Imperius Curse. You will find that similar powers are needed for 
this." 

When the fake!Moody trained them against the Imperius, he didn't give 
a method. Harry fought it instinctively . And he succeeded after he 
had been attacked repeatedly . 
Similar powers needs similar method. A constant exposition until the 
victim found the way to fight. ( And the fact that the IC and 
Occlumency are both focused on the victim's mind is probably not a 
coincidence .)

Then, Snape make a first test, to know Harry's level of resistance to 
start.
And what did he say after?

 "For a first attempt , that was not as poor as it might have been. 
(...) You managed to stop me eventually."

Like an "excellent" from McGonagall is an extravagant praises, this, 
from Snape, to a Gryffindor, to Potter, it's a compliment .

He kept saying "clear your mind", but he didn't say how. 

Wrong. He explained just after the test.

 "I want you close your eyes,(
) let go of all emotion, (
) you will 
need more discipline than this, (
) focus, now.
Empty it, make it blank and calm." 

 Why should he insist on that, if it's not important? How could he 
said Harry didn't practise?

I think the Occlumency is easier if you train regularly your brain to 
be
 empty. ( Just like this, do you think the legilimency is more 
difficult on Crabbe and Goyle ? :D )

Harry didn't make any effort, he didn't train his brain. So the 
progress were impossible .

When Harry saw his memories (the firsts, not the pensieve , p521) , 
he's angry. In spite of that, he said:

 "That was certainly an improvement (
) there is no doubt that it was 
effective." 

Again, from him, it was a compliment. And this time, Harry really 
made an effort.( maybe for the first time.)

Snape spent more than 3/4 months to train him and no progress were 
made.

When he stopped the lessons after the Penseive Accident ,maybe he 
thought (or said to every one who could ask him, like Remus or 
Dumbledore) that anyway, Harry doesn't even try, why insist?


Christelle.




From t.forch at mail.dk  Sat Mar 27 23:32:00 2004
From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 00:32:00 +0100
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[HPforGrownups]_Harry?s_anger:_teen_angst?= or 
 channeling Voldemort?
In-Reply-To: <c44t10+h6g8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20040328002547.05154200@pop3.norton.antivirus>

No: HPFGUIDX 94223

At 21:51 27-03-04 +0000, nkafkafi wrote:


<snip>

>Each of these small episodes by itself could have been only teen
>angst, but taken together they are telling. Of course, we see Harry
>having surges of anger towards many other people in OotP, but it is
>especially out-of-character when it is directed towards his close
>friends.

Well done, Neri ;-)

It's nice to see that I'm not the only one suspecting that (at
least a significant part of) Harry's anger in OotP was due to
his contact with Voldemort.

I never thought of arguing the way you did - thanks.

We do know from the occasions where Harry is aware of the contact,
that Harry not only knows what Voldemort is feeling, but that he
actually /feels/ the emotions on himself. The contact is
maintained throughout the year - Harry has already started having
dreams of the Department of Mysteries when the book opens - and
the anger and resentment Harry feels throughout the book seems, to
me, very appropriate residue from Voldemort's normal emotional
state.

/Troels





From gbannister10 at aol.com  Sat Mar 27 23:29:41 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 23:29:41 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c441h0+pbdv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c452p5+ev74@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94224

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jmgarciaiii" 
<jmgarciaiii at y...> wrote:

Joe:
> In my experience, last-names-only is VERY prevalent in old-
> line "prep" ("public schools" in the UK?) schools, especially among 
> boys-only schools. The only people who called someone by his first 
> name were relatives. A very close friend would probaby call you by 
> your nickname, such as "Pongo," "Bertie" or "Barmy."
> 

Geoff:
Not just UK public schools. When I started teaching in the early 
1960s, we always used surnames; mark you, it was a single-sex school.

When we began to accept the dreaded female of the species in the late 
60s, that was when first names began to creep in.




From ruminalus_ficus at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 27 23:24:16 2004
From: ruminalus_ficus at yahoo.com (Andrew)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 23:24:16 -0000
Subject: Harry's anger: teen angst or channeling Voldemort?
In-Reply-To: <c44t10+h6g8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c452f0+to4q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94225

nkafkafi wrote:
> I know that many list members, me included, have felt uneasy about 
> Harry's anger in OotP. It wasn't in character, and made him less 
> likeable than he is in the previous books. Sure, Harry has many 
> reasons for anger in OotP, and he is 15 and has the hormone surge 
> (thought I find it a terrible clich?, and somehow Ron and Hermione 
> manage to avoid the same fate). But isn't it obvious that Harry's 
> anger, or at least the worst of it, is simply channeling LV's 
> emotions through the scar link?
---<snip>---

I can see how these similar to the feelings Harry has when LV is 
acting through him, but I don't think it is anything more than teen 
angst.  He doesn't think Ron or Hermione (or Dumbledore, at the end) 
can understand the way he feels about what is going on, so his 
reaction is to try to put them in a position similar to his own: to 
make them feel how he feels.  I can remember feeling the same way.

-RF





From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 28 00:30:08 2004
From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 00:30:08 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c452p5+ev74@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c456ag+rqdt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94226

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" 
<gbannister10 at a...> wrote:
> Not just UK public schools. When I started teaching in the early 
> 1960s, we always used surnames; mark you, it was a single-sex 
school.
> 
> When we began to accept the dreaded female of the species in the 
late 
> 60s, that was when first names began to creep in.

I recall that even in college, especially among other guys with the 
same sort of educational background it was very much the norm to be 
on a last name only basis.

-Joe in SoFla




From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 28 00:40:22 2004
From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 00:40:22 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c4517i+k8ek@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c456tm+b8t5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94227

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> 
wrote:

> Neville went to pieces in his very first potions class, before 
> Snape had done anything to him. I think his great fear of Snape 
> may have something to do with his mysterious past. That doesn't 
> mean Snape is guilty.

[snip]

> But we were talking about Lupin. You understand that it's wrong 
> for Snape to humiliate Neville in front of the whole class. But 
you 
> don't see anything wrong or discourteous about Lupin doing the 
> same thing to Snape? 

In order for me to find anything wrong or discourteous about what 
Lupin did, I would first have to accept the premise it was "the same 
thing." Which is a premise I regretfully cannot accept.
 
> If the point of the exercise was to help Neville deal with his fear
> of Snape, or to discourage Snape's bullying, then it  didn't work. 

IMO, the point of the exercise was to help Neville deal with a 
boggart.

> Lupin is too shrewd a judge of humanity, and Snape, not to have 
> anticipated such an outcome. IMO,  Neville was  heartlessly 
> manipulated into a situation that only made things worse for him. 

I don't see it that way, but as always I am open to correction on 
this assertion tht Lupin heartlessly manipulated Neville.

AFAICT, Neville's boggart was Snape (we can freely hypothesize why 
that may have been, but that's afield of the point) and the boggart 
had to be "disarmed" by making it funny, i.e., by changing it into 
something worthy of ridicule. Having sad that, I don't know how a 
Boggart!Snape could be managed without holding it up to ridicule 
and, therefore, making Lupin seem (in the eyes of some) showing 
professional DIScourtesy towards Snape.

-Joe in SoFla




From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 28 00:45:17 2004
From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 00:45:17 -0000
Subject: Evaluating Snape (was: Re: Lupin's resentment )
In-Reply-To: <c44rde+vh3u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4576t+52fg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94228

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at m...> 
wrote:
> Hermione has done a lot of research into different topics: 
animagi, 
> vampires, not sure what else.  I get the feeling she knows 
something 
> about Snape that she hasn't shared with the boys.

It is interesting to note that it was (primarily?) as a result 
of "Snape's werewolf essay" that Hermione discovered Lupin was a 
werewolf. I would tend to doubt that Snape assigned it without the 
hope (expectation?) that Hermione would have figured out the truth 
about Lupin. Also, Hermione never did tell anyone until the end of 
PoA what she haddiscovered and how.

It is also, therefore, very interesting to note that Lupin then 
assigned an essay on vampires. I'm curious as to what insights 
Hermione reached therefrom and which teachers (if any) are affected 
by the revelations of these insights.

-Joe in SoFla




From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 28 00:47:45 2004
From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 00:47:45 -0000
Subject: The immensely complex Homorphus Charm
In-Reply-To: <c44pvr+s7ni@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c457bh+o8s0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94229

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:

> Well, we can only speculate. Since it has been made clear that 
there
> is no cure for being a werewolf, we can immediately eliminate that
> possibility. 

Ah, but that's not *exactly* it. There is no KNOWN cure, if FBAWTFT 
is anything to go by.

Everything else I pretty much agree with, at least in concept.

-Joe in SoFla




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sun Mar 28 01:01:49 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 01:01:49 -0000
Subject: No subject
In-Reply-To: <c44t10+h6g8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4585t+8sn2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94230

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" 
<nkafkafi at y...> wrote:

> I know that many list members, me included, have felt uneasy 
about  Harry's anger in OotP. It wasn't in character, and made 
him less  likeable than he is in the previous books. Sure, Harry 
has many  reasons for anger in OotP, and he is 15 and has the 
hormone surge  (thought I find it a terrible clich?, and somehow 
Ron and Hermione  manage to avoid the same fate).<

Hardly. Ron is pretty hormonal in  GoF. He's also irrationally 
angry with  Harry and Hermione. Hermione has had her moods 
as well. I am wondering if the snappish and emotional 
Hermione of PoA was Teenangst!Hermione or just a preview of 
what we 'll see in Book Six.


>But isn't it obvious that Harry's 
> anger, or at least the worst of it, is simply channeling LV's 
> emotions through the scar link?

But when the scar link is active, it hurts. 


> The telling part is that Harry is not just angry in OotP, he 
actually  *enjoys* his friends' hurt. This is definitely not Harry.
Our 
Harry  doesn't have a sadistic streak in him. Well, perhaps 
towards Dudley  in moments of discord, or towards Snape, but 
certainly not towards  Ron and Hermione.<

But at that moment he was just as angry with them as he has 
been with Snape, and he wanted them to feel hurt because he 
was hurting so badly.

In a way this shows his growth as a person. He used to either 
repress his anger or withdraw into silence. Now at least he can 
tell his friends what's bothering him--something that was much 
more difficult for him in GoF. Remember how he didn't want to 
tell them that his scar had been hurting, and didn't want to tell 
them that he'd dreamed of a plot against his life. 

  Harry is more in touch with his emotions now, and as a teen, 
his capacity for feeling has grown. . He can't help feeling angry, 
or wanting to hurt people sometimes, but he can decide how he 
is going to manage those feelings. 


Pippin






From vmonte at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 28 01:12:14 2004
From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 01:12:14 -0000
Subject: Evaluating Snape (was: Re: Lupin's resentment )
In-Reply-To: <c44r76+l52@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c458pe+qg1d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94231

Mel wrote:
Hermione is a teacher's nightmare. She IS a know it all and a bossy, 
aggressive one. Students like that cow other students who fall into 
a "oh she's going to answer anyway, why bother," line of thinking 
when her type is in the room. There are only so many times a teacher 
can say "Why don't we give someone else a chance," or "I'm sure 
you've done the reading, Miss Granger, shall we let someone else show 
us that they have as well?" before even the sweetest, calmest "Miss 
Honey" type blows a gasket. 

vmonte responds:

Hermione is not a teacher's nightmare -- she is the exact opposite! 
Teachers want their students to be attentive and prepared for class. 
It's obvious that all the other teachers are happy to have Hermione 
in their class. Face it -- Snape is a jerk!!!!

That doesn't mean that I don't like the character. I've said many 
times that I love his quick wit and biting sarcasm!  The guy makes me 
laugh!!! 

What I don't buy is the idea that he is a good guy underneath it 
all.  I think that Snape really only cares about Snape.  If he is on 
the side of the Order it's only because it beats working with Voldy.

vmonte




From helopookie at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 28 01:48:29 2004
From: helopookie at yahoo.com (helopookie)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 01:48:29 -0000
Subject: Snape's capacity for positive emotion
In-Reply-To: <001001c41417$1e68bb40$ae59aacf@texas.net>
Message-ID: <c45atd+iddp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94233

Amanda wrote:
>No. Many years ago, when we had a few books under our belts, before 
serious
rumors rumbled that a movie was in the works, a friend and I had 
long, 
fun
discussions "casting" a HP movie.

Drawn from the imagery and characterization in the books, we lit upon 
Alan
Rickman as the perfect Snape
>

Now me:
I had always thought of Snape as Richard O'Brien.  The descriptions 
that JKR uses makes me think of him.  The image was so much of the 
character I built for the books that I still "see" him as I read the 
books.

Ben  




From melclaros at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 28 01:52:33 2004
From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 01:52:33 -0000
Subject: Evaluating Snape (was: Re: Lupin's resentment )
In-Reply-To: <c458pe+qg1d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c45b51+62gs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94234

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" <vmonte at y...> wrote:
:
> 
> Hermione is not a teacher's nightmare -- she is the exact 
opposite! 


Mel:
Are you a teacher? I have taught and I've had students who were like 
Hermione. They, without fail, intimidated the rest of the class. 
Everyone knew who'd shout out the answer and whose hand would shoot 
up first (usually those two things happened simultaneously) and if 
there wasn't a unanimous groan when it happened it was giggles 
all 'round. 


> Teachers want their students to be attentive and prepared for 
class. 

Mel:
Absolutely. And ready to PARTICIPATE. Not take over. I've seen kids 
like her get sour-pusses on or go sulky when someone else answers a 
question correctly. I don't know if Hermione does that at HW but it 
wouldn't surprise me if she'd done it in grammar school.


> It's obvious that all the other teachers are happy to have 
Hermione > in their class. 


Mel:
Again, as in the case of Snape's giving Harry zeros all the time we 
really see very little of anyone's class time. Some teachers do 
enjoy having students like her in class. It means they don't have to 
work.



>>Face it -- Snape is a jerk!!!!

Mel:
Jerk? No. Nasty piece of work? Absolutely. He dislikes children and 
dislikes teaching (except perhaps his NEWT classes--I think he might 
have a better time there. Or has had until next year when you-know-
who and crew crash the party.)  He really, *really* dislikes 
insubordination and showboating. I always laugh when someone brings 
up how "obvious" it is that Snape wants to be headmaster. Honestly I 
can't think of a job he'd want less. Which means, of course, that 
the poor SOB may end up being just that. He has my sympathy.


!! 
> 
> What I don't buy is the idea that he is a good guy underneath it 
> all.  I think that Snape really only cares about Snape.  If he is 
on 
> the side of the Order it's only because it beats working with 
Voldy.



Mel
No, he's on the side of the order because it suits his purposes. 
Which are personal and have very little to do with being on 
the "right side" for the sake of being right. That's IMHO.

I still think it's funny that so many are still saying how awful he 
is to Hermione while she herself is his defender every time Ron 
(let's not get started on HIS classroom behaviour) flaps his jaws 
about ESE!Snape.

Mel




From MadameSSnape at aol.com  Sun Mar 28 01:53:33 2004
From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 20:53:33 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Evaluating Snape (was: Re: Lupin's resentment )
Message-ID: <32.45d67e3d.2d978a1d@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94235

In a message dated 3/27/2004 8:16:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
vmonte at yahoo.com writes:
Hermione is not a teacher's nightmare -- she is the exact opposite! 
Teachers want their students to be attentive and prepared for class. 
It's obvious that all the other teachers are happy to have Hermione 
in their class. Face it -- Snape is a jerk!!!!
=======================
Sherrie here - former Hermione:

I think it very much depends upon the teacher.  I freely confess - I was one 
of those "bossy know-it-alls" in school - learned to read at 3, reading 
Shakespeare and Greek mythology at 6, while memorizing Whitman and the Gettysburg 
Address, high school vocabulary in second grade...  Half the time my hand was in 
the air before the teacher finished the question.  Some teachers loved it - 
others hated it.  Of the latter, I remember only one I'd classify as a 
"jerk"...and frankly, in the end the former did me more disservice, by never pushing 
me to learn to study, which seriously hampered me later on, even to this day 
(I'm studying for a HUGE exam in December, and stressing out MIGHTILY).  The one 
I remember as the "jerk" - third grade, Mrs. Cooper - is the one who pushed 
me - by putting me into "I'll-show-HER!" mode, and making me WORK to prove to 
her that I was the best.  

:::shrug::: Snape isn't NICE - but Harry had already determined not to like 
him, before he'd even met him.  We really don't get much of an objective 
picture of him, now, do we?

Sherrie (former Hermione, now a Snape...)
"Unless history lives in our present, it has no future." 
PRESERVE OUR CIVIL WAR BATTLEFIELDS!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nkafkafi at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 28 02:48:17 2004
From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 02:48:17 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c4517i+k8ek@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c45edh+qtcv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94236

> Neri:
> I have been carefully maintaining neutral silence during this
surge of Snape posts <snip> but this one had got to me. I just
can't avoid replying. Did you think for a minute, how is it that
Neville's greatest fear is Snape? We are talking here about a
boy whom both his parents were tortured to insanity. A boy
whom his own uncle was throwing him out of third floor
windows and piers. And what is he most terrified of? His
teacher.<<

Pippin:
Neville went to pieces in his very first potions class, before
Snape had done anything to him. 

Neri:
Neville regularly goes to pieces. He also did it before the first 
flying lesson, and during the first five minutes he managed to break 
his arm and disrupt the lesson completely, but do you see Madam Hooch 
mistreat him? Neville is a disaster in every subject except 
Herbology, but do you see any other teacher mistreat him even once?

Pippin: 
I think his great fear of Snape
may have something to do with his mysterious past. That doesn't
mean Snape is guilty. I keep thinking about children who have to
be taught not to be afraid of firefighters in their turnout gear, so
that they won't run away from their potential rescuers. Snape
bursting in, wand raised, to rescue baby Neville from the DE's
who had tortured his parents would be a terrifying sight to a
toddler.

Neri:
Well, if this or something similar turns out to be true, I'll post 
here an official apology to Snape. Honest. In the meantime this 
speculation doesn't have much support in canon, while there is plenty 
of canon for Snape's continuing abuse of Neville.  

Pippin:
I am not going to defend Snape's teaching methods.

Neri:
I wasn't discussing his teaching methods at all. I cowardly leave 
this to Susan, who does a heroic job with Kneasy. I was only talking 
about behaving like a decent human being towards kids one was given 
responsibility for.   

Pippin:
I've had my
share of Snapes and so have my children. If we didn't know that
wizarding children don't come down with Muggle afflictions, I'd
wonder if Neville had attention deficit disorder. I have seen a
brilliant, award-winning teacher whom I would love to study with
turn into a complete monster trying to deal with undiagnosed
ADD. This isn't the place to rehash MemoryCharm!Neville, but it
wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that Neville has the magical
equivalent of a learning disorder.

Neri:
I happen to have a niece who is ADHD diagnosed. I know from first 
hand how problematic these kids can be (Neville is not even close). 
And yet, if her parents would have find out that one of her teachers 
is picking on her *of his own accord* (as there is plenty of canon 
for Snape doing to Neville) I'm sure they would have taken her out of 
this school.

A question: you seem to think that Snape knows about what happened to 
Neville's parents. I agree that he most probably does know, whether 
your speculation above is correct or not. What does this say about 
him continuing to abuse Neville?   

Pippin:
But we were talking about Lupin. You understand that it's wrong
for Snape to humiliate Neville in front of the whole class. But you
don't see anything wrong or discourteous about Lupin doing the
same thing to Snape?

Neri:
In this specific case, no. I don't see anything wrong, and much 
right. Lupin correctly identified who is the bully and who is the 
victim here (not very difficult, LOL). Sure, if this was a normal 
muggle school, Lupin should have file an official complaint against 
Snape and make sure he would be thrown out of the school and not have 
a chance to abuse students anywhere else. In Hogwarts things don't 
work this way, apparently, so Lupin armed Neville against his worst 
fear the best way he could. Yes, I admit that I most ungraciously 
gloated in Snape's humiliation when I've read this. It was a tiny 
sample of the dish he feeds Neville each and every lesson.   

Pippin:
If the point of the exercise was to help Neville deal with his fear
of Snape, or to discourage Snape's bullying, then it didn't work.

"Snape didn't seem to find it funny. His eyes flashed menacingly
at the very mention of Professor Lupin's name, and he was
bullying Neville worse than ever." --PoA ch. 8

Lupin is too shrewd a judge of humanity, and Snape, not to have
anticipated such an outcome. IMO, Neville was heartlessly
manipulated into a situation that only made things worse for him.

Neri:
IMO the difference between "just the ordinary bullying" and "bullying 
worst than ever" is not that critical. What is critical is the 
ability to confront your worst fear without going to pieces. Lupin 
gave this ability to both Harry and Neville, using similar methods. 
IMO he was bang right both times.

Sorry Snape fans, our Potion Master may be talented, charismatic, 
sexy, brave, shrewd, and a superb secret agent. He is also a chronic 
child abuser. I see no way out of this conclusion. And in my book, 
people who abuse children are bad people.  

Neri





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 28 02:58:21 2004
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 02:58:21 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c45edh+qtcv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c45f0d+69s9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94237

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" <nkafkafi at y...> 
wrote:
> 
> Neri:
> Well, if this or something similar turns out to be true, I'll post 
> here an official apology to Snape. Honest. In the meantime this 
> speculation doesn't have much support in canon, while there is 
plenty 
> of canon for Snape's continuing abuse of Neville.  


He! I will be right there with you, signing this apology. :o)
I think that Memory charm! Neville could very well be true due to the 
fact that his amgical abilities improved drastically in OoP - maybe 
memory charm is wearing off, who knows.

Speculation about Snape being there could also turn out to be true, 
but he could have trying to save Neville or torturing his parents 
with the others, while Neville watching from his hiding place. Then i 
will not besigning that apology.

 
> Neri:
> I happen to have a niece who is ADHD diagnosed. I know from first 
> hand how problematic these kids can be (Neville is not even close). 
> And yet, if her parents would have find out that one of her 
teachers 
> is picking on her *of his own accord* (as there is plenty of canon 
> for Snape doing to Neville) I'm sure they would have taken her out 
of 
> this school.
> 


Again, Neville seems to have no trouble performing well in Sprout 
class, so I doubt that he has a learning disorder. He responds well 
to kind treatment.

?
> 
> Neri:
> In this specific case, no. I don't see anything wrong, and much 
> right. Lupin correctly identified who is the bully and who is the 
> victim here (not very difficult, LOL). Sure, if this was a normal 
> muggle school, Lupin should have file an official complaint against 
> Snape and make sure he would be thrown out of the school and not 
have 
> a chance to abuse students anywhere else. In Hogwarts things don't 
> work this way, apparently, so Lupin armed Neville against his worst 
> fear the best way he could. Yes, I admit that I most ungraciously 
> gloated in Snape's humiliation when I've read this. It was a tiny 
> sample of the dish he feeds Neville each and every lesson.   


Yep, definitely. Besides how else Lupin should have dealt with 
Boggart? Not his fault what Neville's turned out to be. He was 
teaching Riddikulus! to everybody after all. Should Boggart! Snape 
gotten any special treatment? :o)

> Neri:
> IMO the difference between "just the ordinary bullying" 
and "bullying 
> worst than ever" is not that critical. What is critical is the 
> ability to confront your worst fear without going to pieces. Lupin 
> gave this ability to both Harry and Neville, using similar methods. 
> IMO he was bang right both times.
>

Yes, I am not that big fan of Canon! Lupin so far. he is way too 
perfect for my taste just yet. but I would concur that he is 
portrayed as an ideal teacher.


> Sorry Snape fans, our Potion Master may be talented, charismatic, 
> sexy, brave, shrewd, and a superb secret agent. He is also a 
chronic 
> child abuser. I see no way out of this conclusion. And in my book, 
> people who abuse children are bad people.  
> 
> Neri

Stands up and gives Neri long round of applauds. :o)

Alla




From vmonte at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 28 03:07:55 2004
From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 03:07:55 -0000
Subject: Evaluating Snape (was: Re: Lupin's resentment )
In-Reply-To: <c45b51+62gs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c45fib+i5gb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94238

Mel wrote:
I always laugh when someone brings up how "obvious" it is that Snape 
wants to be headmaster. Honestly I can't think of a job he'd want 
less. Which means, of course, that the poor SOB may end up being just 
that. He has my sympathy.

vmonte responds:

I never said that Snape wants to be headmaster. 

But back to the topic --
You're a teacher? I'm surprised that you condone/admire Snape's 
unprofessional classroom behavior.  But I understand that it's your 
prerogative.  It's also mine to believe that his behavior is wrong.

vmonte! :D     




From houseofbohacek at earthlink.net  Sun Mar 28 03:14:27 2004
From: houseofbohacek at earthlink.net (klyanthea)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 03:14:27 -0000
Subject: (FILK) Karkaroff's Trial
Message-ID: <c45fuj+u3bk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94239

Karkaroff's Trial


A filk by Gail B. to the tune of _Crocodile Rock_ by Elton John


Midi is here: http://www.midifilearchive.com/Rock-pop/elton.html

Dedicated to the Boss, CMC.

Note: Killjoys may point out that "alone" and "gone" do not rhyme.
Well, neither did "young" and "fun" in the original song. Deal with
it.

Another note: Instead of coming up with a whole new third stanza I
just repeated the first. Deal with it.



Harry is sitting at a piano, wearing a pair of mod-rocker sunglasses
instead of his usual round spectacles:

When Dumbledore left me alone
He and Moody with Fudge had gone
Waiting there 'till he returned
I saw D'dore's Pensieve and inside there I learned
Through the memories that were compiled
What had happened during Karkaroff's trial
With Dementors, Igor glided down the aisle
He was tied down and tried bound during Karkaroff's trial
Well, he was scared
But was prepared
To give a list of names to Crouch
He wanted freedom from Azkaban
And for that, Igor would vouch
Wow! How'd it happen when overnight
All of his sable hair turned white?
It was 'cause his trial made worse his plight

(Imitating Karkaroff blabbing off names at his trial)

Blah
blah-blah-blah-blah blah
Blah-blah-blah blah blah
Blah-blah-blah-blah blah

In a year or two things for him improved
He became Headmaster at some foreign school
A stool pigeon helping the Ministry
Igor turned in many who weren't known D.E.'s
Although Igor was in deep denial
He'd recall how he once was on trial
If his Lord was somehow restored
He really knew his treason wouldn't be ignored
Well, a while passed
When at long last
The Dark Mark began to turn clear
It had not since Lord Voldemort's time
And this thought filled him with fear
Ow! Now it's burning black again
Searing his arm with sharp pain
He fled, dreading that very soon he'd be slain

Blah...blah-blah-blah-blah blah
Blah-blah-blah blah blah
Blah-blah-blah-blah blah

When Dumbledore left me alone
He and Moody with Fudge had gone
Waiting there for his return
I saw D'dore's Pensieve and inside there I learned
Through the memories that were compiled
What had happened during Karkaroff's trial
With Dementors, Igor glided down the aisle
He was tied down and tried bound during Karkaroff's trial
Well, he was scared
But was prepared
To give a list of names to Crouch
He wanted freedom from Azkaban
And for that, Igor would vouch
Wow! How'd it happen when overnight
All of his sable hair turned white?
It was 'cause his trial made worse his plight

Blah...blah-blah-blah-blah blah
Blah-blah-blah blah blah
Blah-blah-blah-blah blah

Blah...blah-blah-blah-blah blah
Blah-blah-blah blah blah
Blah-blah-blah-blah blah

-Gail B.





From unbound_to_the_circles at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 28 03:11:36 2004
From: unbound_to_the_circles at yahoo.com (unbound_to_the_circles)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 03:11:36 -0000
Subject: Luna's importance to the series.
Message-ID: <c45fp8+tvk2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94240

I posted this at MNI; am I crazy, or does this make sense?

The Sorting Hat has spoken of the need for inter-house unity. Now,
traditionally, we know that Gryffindor is aligned with Hufflepuff;
conversely, this means Ravenclaw is tradionally aligned with
Slytherin. We know that at least Draco Malfoy, the archtypal
Slytherin, doesn't look down on Ravenclaw... he says so to Harry in
Madame Malkin's robe shop. In GoF, Rowling reinforces the idea that
Hufflepuff is normally sided with Gryffindor. While Ravenclawers are
not nessecarily all for Slytherin, they are placed side by side.

Luna breaks this. Although we have hints of inter-house mingling
(Ginny and Harry both see Ravenclaws,) Luna openly supports
Gryffindor. And she, like Harry (and Hermione, who could have ended up
a Ravenclaw,) is unique to their house. Harry, because he could have
fit into all of the houses. Luna is unique to her house because it is
built on logic and intelligence, and yet she believes in the
unbelievable. She calmly ignores the nasty behaviour people from her
house shows her, and participates in the Battle of the Department of
Mysteries. She also helps Harry through his pain of losing Sirius -
for the first time, a character from another house shows true
alignment with Harry, and a Gryffindor.

Luna, moreso than the DA, is the first step to inter-house unity.

Seren, who wishes for a good butterbeer right about now.





From CindyJ2 at cox.net  Sun Mar 28 03:28:30 2004
From: CindyJ2 at cox.net (Cindy Jenkins)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 21:28:30 -0600
Subject: Evaluating Snape (was: Re: Lupin's resentment )
References: <c44r76+l52@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <01db01c41474$bd9a89c0$536a6744@DEAN>

No: HPFGUIDX 94241

Mel wrote:

>If anyone was going to bring up the unfairness of a teacher, it would
>be our Miss Hermione SPEW Granger.

Well, she has...

OOPT, when they were doing the Draught of Peace

"That was really unfair," said Hermione consolingly, sitting down next to
Harry and helping herslf to sheperd's pie.  "Your potion wasn't nearly as
bad as Goyle's, when he put it in his flagon the whole thing shattered and
set hes robes on fire."  "Yeah, well," said Harry, gloering at his plate,
"since when has Snape ever been fair to me?"  Neither of the others
answered...
<snip>  "I did think he might be a bit better this year," said Hermione in a
disappointed voice.  "I mean...you know...<snip>...he's in the Order and
everything." (pg 235, US hardback)

Not only does she objectively said Goyle's potion was worse, she admits that
Snape's *always* been unfair.

Further, DD admits that Snape shouldn't have taught Harry occulemency,
because, as he tells Harry "I thought Professor Snape could overcome his
feelings about your father--I was wrong."  This, too me, seems wrong of DD.
He put Snape in charge of Harry *knowing* that there was a bad history
there.  Harry didn't know it until OOTP.  But DD did, and he still put Harry
in that situation.  IMHO, DD should have set Snape down and told him to grow
up a few years ago.

I've avoided the Snape discussion for many reasons.  I'm new here, and I
really like him as a character.  But as a teacher, I think he's at best
unfair, and at worst, a complete dictator.

Cindy






From CindyJ2 at cox.net  Sun Mar 28 02:56:01 2004
From: CindyJ2 at cox.net (Cindy Jenkins)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 20:56:01 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The immensely complex Homorphus Charm
References: <c44pvr+s7ni@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <01d601c41470$342921a0$536a6744@DEAN>

No: HPFGUIDX 94242


> "... I put my wand to his throat -I then screwed up my remaining
> strength and performed the immensely complex Homorphus Charm - ...-
> the fur vanished - the fangs shrank - and he turned back into a man.
> Simple, yet effective - and another village will remember me forever
> as the hero who delivered them from the monthly terror of werewolf
> attacks."

bboy_mn wrote:

>First, it is real. Second, it is not a 'medical' charm, but a
>defensive charm. Third, someone somewhere in the future could actually
>perform it. Logically, Hermione is the most likely candidate.

>As I said the charm does not cure werewolfism. It forces a werewolf
>back into human form, and may force enough humanity back into the
>person to stop a werewolf attack.

>The functional purpose of the charm is to force the person back to
>human form, so that he can be identified. It's very very likely that a
>werewolf living in a village is NOT going to spread that news around.
>So, now, after the charm, the villagers have the culprit identified
>and know who to watch out for.

>I also believe that the charm is transient. That is, it's good for
>maybe an hour. In that hours time, you must either flee, or capture
>and imprison the werewolf.

Me now--

I'm curious...  Why do you think this?  Is there something in canon to
suggest it?

I suppose you could interpret the passage that way.  I think you can also
read it as a cure.  Maybe it's a pseudo-fictional one that not many people
know of or believe.  For example, people think Loopy Luna is full of it.
She believes in animals that others *know* don't exist, because they don't
appear in books, or if they do, they are fictional only.  But are they?

I don't think JRK would intentionally write contradictory canon.  In FB, she
writes that there's no known cure for werewolfism, but the passage from
Lockhart (to me, anyway) suggests that there is a cure.  Lockhart admits in
COS *he* didn't perform the feats, but he says *somebody* did, and he had to
track them down and find out exactly what happened.  If he's going to 'fess
up to stealing their stories, why wouldn't he just admit the whole thing was
a lie?  I think it's because it isn't--he really did find someone who cured
werewolfism.

I really think that Lupin will be eventually cured, and this charm will be
part of it.  I really hope so, too, because I like the guy.

Cindy






From CindyJ2 at cox.net  Sun Mar 28 03:37:58 2004
From: CindyJ2 at cox.net (Cindy Jenkins)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 21:37:58 -0600
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
References: <c4517i+k8ek@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <01e001c41476$107e5df0$536a6744@DEAN>

No: HPFGUIDX 94243

Pippin wrote:

>You understand that it's wrong for Snape to humiliate Neville in
>front of the whole class. But you don't see anything wrong or
>discourteous about Lupin doing the same thing to Snape?

>If the point of the exercise was to help Neville deal with his fear
>of Snape, or to discourage Snape's bullying, then it  didn't work.

I think that assumes Lupin *knew* what Neville's boggart would be.  We
already know he guessed Harry's boggart wrong, remember?  He thought it
would be LV, but it was a dementor.  I think it's a bit of a strech to
assume that Lupin knew Neville's would be Snape.  Perhaps he thought it
would be his "formidible" grandmother.

The point was to teach the kids to banish a boggart, which necessitated them
dealing with their fears.  The object--making their fears funny--was a
simple way of giving the kids control over their fears.  Even before HP,
that's what I've done, and I bet most parents have done.  Scared of public
speaking?  Imagine the audience naked.  Afraid of dogs?  Pretend it's
wearing a funny dog-sweater.

So Lupin calls Neville first, and lo and behold, his worst fear is Snape...
That's humiliating enough.  I'd be hurt to find out I was someone's *worst
fear*.  The dress was, IMHO, just a sidebar.

Cindy







From CindyJ2 at cox.net  Sun Mar 28 03:41:58 2004
From: CindyJ2 at cox.net (Cindy Jenkins)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 21:41:58 -0600
Subject: Evaluating Snape (was: Re: Lupin's resentment )
References: <c458pe+qg1d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <01e601c41476$9f9030e0$536a6744@DEAN>

No: HPFGUIDX 94244

vmonte wrote:

>What I don't buy is the idea that he is a good guy underneath it
>all.  I think that Snape really only cares about Snape.  If he is on
>the side of the Order it's only because it beats working with Voldy.

I've thought for a while that Snape is with the Order because he's paying
his life-debt to James (and maybe to DD for giving him a second chance?).
He's protecting Harry, and he finds it a loathsome job.  He didn't like
James, and now he has to protect his son.  Ugh.  Frankly, I bet Snape ends
up dying to protect Harry.

Cindy




From stanleys at sbcglobal.net  Sun Mar 28 04:52:45 2004
From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 04:52:45 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c44lh1+fas9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c45lmu+j3d5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94245

Pippin Wrote: 
As unprofessional as encouraging one of your students to 
conjure a fellow teacher in drag? Don't tell me there wasn't any 
other way to handle the situation. I'm sure if Neville's worst 
fear 
had been Harry or McGonagall, Lupin would have thought of 
something. 

Neri:
snip of excellent post about Snape
> Lupin did not invent Neville's worst fear. He armed Neville against 
> this fear. This is how a true teacher should behave, and for this 
> deed alone I like Lupin.  
snip> Neri

Sue piping in:
This thread made me think of something bigger that Lupin may have 
wanted to accomplish.  Though Neville was the one who's Boggart 
turned into Snape, most of the kids are afraid of him.  Perhaps this 
was just Lupin's version of "imagine the audience in their 
underwear".  IOW, he's just a man boys and girls.  

I will pose the question to the folks out there who think what Lupin 
did was wrong:  What would you have him do?  Maybe let Neville's 
imagination run wild and decapitate the good professor?  Crucio 
perhaps?  Or maybe "I'm sorry Neville, I can't teach you how to fight 
a Boggart (even though they are in cabinets around school and will be 
on the final exam) out of profesional courtesy."  

Anyone? 
Sue 




From puju02 at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Mar 28 04:39:27 2004
From: puju02 at yahoo.co.uk (puju02)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 04:39:27 -0000
Subject: Voldemort's defeat
Message-ID: <c45ktv+r2t9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94246

Puja:
JKR often hints at Harry's defeat. However in PS she shows LV 
drinking unicorn blood (thru Prof. Quirrel). Drinking unicorn blood 
gives the person "a half life, a cursed life". Does this imply that 
LV will definitely be defeated or did that refer to Prof Quirrel 
having a half and cursed life because he was the one drinking unicorn 
blood. Just looking for excuses for Harry not to die....







From annemehr at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 28 05:37:19 2004
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 05:37:19 -0000
Subject: Harry, Snape,Occlumency
In-Reply-To: <c44vo2+r6p9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c45oaf+8ci5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94247

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "evita2fr" <Snarryfan at a...> wrote:
> *wave* Newbie here!

Annemehr:
Hi, Christelle!  Nice post, mind if I join you?  :-)

Christelle: 
> It was probably already discussed, but I saw this argument too often, 
> I must say something.
> 
> Snape did a big mystake when he didn't force Harry to go on the 
> Occlumency's lesson. I could agree with this if Harry was advanced in 
> the subject and he needed one or two lessons to wrap all.But when 
> they stopped, they are in April, they started in January, and Harry 
> made no progress.You could say that Snape should teach better than 
> what he did. But (in his standard) he made the best he could do.

Annemehr:
Yes, twice-a-week lessons for over three months, and very little
progress.  Harry's never failed like that before.  Even though he did
not practice nearly enough (I've posted before on some passages that
showed he did practice at least a little), you have to wonder why just
keeping Snape out of his mind after so many hours was not enough
motivation to learn.  I do also wonder what would have happened if
Harry had succeeded -- I mean, wouldn't he have had to walk around in
a state of constant Occlumency twenty-four hours a day in order to
guard against Voldemort intrusions?  Could anyone really do that?

Actually, this whole subject seems full of contradictions.  Consider
this passage, from OoP ch. 24; Snape's explanation at the beginning of
the first Occlumency lesson:

--------------------------
Whatever Snape said, Legilimency counded like mind reading to Harry
and he did not like the sound of it at all.

"So he could know what we're thinking right now? Sir?"

"The Dark Lord is at a considerable distance and the walls and grounds
of Hogwarts are guarded by many ancient spells and charms to ensure
the bodily and mental safety of those who dwell within them," said
Snape.  "Time and space matter in magic, Potter. Eye contact is often
essential to Legilimency."

"Well then, why do I have to learn Occlumency?"

Snape eyed Harry, tracing his mouth with one long, thin finger as he
did so.

"The usual rules do not seem to apply with you, Potter. The curse that
failed to kill you seems to have forged some kind of connection
between you and the Dark Lord.  The evidence suggests that at times,
when your mind is most relaxed and vulnerable -- when you are asleep,
for instance -- you are sharing the Dark Lord's thoughts and emotions.
 The headmaster thinks it inadvisable for this to continue. He wishes
me to teach you how to close your mind to the Dark Lord."
-------------------------------

Christelle:
> Yes, he didn't explain how block a Legilimens. For the good reason 
> the explanation didn't exist. It's instinctive. His exact words were
> (UK version, chap24, p471):
> 
> "I have been told that you have already shown aptitude at resisting 
> the Imperius Curse. You will find that similar powers are needed for 
> this." 
> 
> When the fake!Moody trained them against the Imperius, he didn't give 
> a method. Harry fought it instinctively . And he succeeded after he 
> had been attacked repeatedly .

Annemehr:
Well, yes, but...
When Harry experienced the Imperius curse, the curse itself gave Harry
a feeling of blissful emptiness, into which the curser could inject
his commands, and which Harry answered with an inner voice that had
not been entirely lulled into passiveness.

But to learn Occlumency, Snape tells Harry that Harry himself must do
the mind-emptying.  Well, okay, maybe Harry emptying his mind might
make it easier for him to access that inner voice while under attack
via legilimency.  It does seem to have been that voice which stopped
Snape as the memory of kissing Cho began to surface:

---------------------------
"*No,* said a voice in Harry's head, as the memory of Cho drew nearer,
*you're not watching that, you're not watching it, it's private --*"
-----------------------------

But how does this square with the part I quoted above, about how the
Dark Lord has been able to get access to Harry's mind while it is most
relaxed and vulnerable?  It seems that emptying his mind is *both* the
way to grant Voldemort easier access to it and the way to allow
Harry's inner voice to combat the intrusion.  In fact, Dumbledore
seems to confirm this after the DoM battle when explaining why he
didn't teach Harry himself:

-------------------------------
"I am aware of it," said Dumbledore heavily.  "I have already said
that it was a mistake for me not to teach you myself, though I was
sure, at the time, that nothing could have been more dangerous than to
open your mind even further to Voldemort while in my presence --"
[OoP ch. 37]
---------------------------------

So Occlumency lessons did indeed make Harry more vulnerable to the
scar connection.  Yet Snape never warned Harry of this effect, which
added to Harry's confusion.  No wonder the kid had trouble learning! 
The more he practiced Occlumency (and he did manage to repel Snape
more than once during lessons), the more open he was to the scar
connection -- which was very *discouraging* for him.  Harry even got
further than ever in the DoM vision during a lesson in ch. 26, and
instead of explaining why that happens, Snape got angry.

Christelle:
> He kept saying "clear your mind", but he didn't say how. 
> 
> Wrong. He explained just after the test.
> 
>  "I want you close your eyes,(
) let go of all emotion, (
) you will 
> need more discipline than this, (
) focus, now.
> Empty it, make it blank and calm." 
<snip>
> I think the Occlumency is easier if you train regularly your brain to 
> be
 empty. ( Just like this, do you think the legilimency is more 
> difficult on Crabbe and Goyle ? :D )

Annemehr:
This may be purely an emotional response on my part, but the image of
Harry with a blank mind does not give me confidence in him as a hero!
 He should learn to be calm, yes, but he'll still have to be able to
think!

Annemehr





From kking0731 at hotmail.com  Sun Mar 28 06:54:32 2004
From: kking0731 at hotmail.com (Kathy King)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 01:54:32 -0500
Subject: Ron=DD?
Message-ID: <Sea2-F17quG8Yss93Do0002f5ae@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94248


The Ron=DD theory has always fascinated me. The questions over the fact of 
DD knowing something he shouldnt before it happens are quite intriguing 
making it appear logical that someone went back in time and became DD. 
This much I believe could be true, someone could have. I do however have a 
bit of difficulty as to Ron being the one to do it. Ron has never shown any 
signs of being "extremely" talented in the ways that would be necessary to 
perform such a feat. The one that I had seen as at least capable were Fred 
and George. Some initial examples: (sounds ludicrous? please read on)

(1) At least one of them is quite skilled having turned Rons teddy bear 
into a spider when he was three, which would have meant the twins were five 
(not bad transfiguration for a 5 year old, which was Fred by the way)
(2) They are also very experimental and creative with their inventions. 
(Especially the headless hats which, Hermione points out, appear to have an 
invisibility spell on them which extends the field of invisibility beyond 
the boundaries of the charmed object) which (a) makes me think about what DD 
is telling Harry in the first book that he doesnt need a cloak to become 
invisible, and (b) DD has also been experimental himself in dragon's blood 
and alchemy.
(3) Harry gave them the Tri-Wizard Tournament money that they used to 
continue their experiments and open the joke shop. (They also use a lot of 
candies in their experiments, we know DD likes sweets and also likes a good 
joke like; the Christmas cracker hat with the vulture on it that DD wore in 
PoA)
(4) They had apparently, already used a type of time-turner method in GoF 
when they made the bet with Bagman. (They new the exact outcome of the 
International Quidditch game)
(5) The twins are also found helping or protecting Harry in every book. This 
help, concern, protection type behavior from the twins for Harry seems to 
become greater with each book.

These are just a few examples that would make the twins more apt to be DD. 
But, when I first noticed just how very talented they were and thought of 
the likelihood of the DD scenario I immediately dismissed the idea because, 
of course, there are "two" of them. Just recently however when I was 
reading, the idea relit when I saw DDs brother Aberforth. Could Aberforth 
possibly be Albus twin? Could they both have gone back in time?

I honestly dont see any more of a problem with this Twins/DD theory than 
the Ron/DD theory, both scenarios are equally questionable. I do favor this 
one because of the twins greater capabilities.

Kathy

_________________________________________________________________
Get tax tips, tools and access to IRS forms  all in one place at MSN Money! 
http://moneycentral.msn.com/tax/home.asp




From naama2486 at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 28 07:13:08 2004
From: naama2486 at yahoo.com (Naama)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 07:13:08 -0000
Subject: Life-saving bonds
Message-ID: <c45tu4+4fve@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94249

[I hope this hasn't been brought up before. If it has - sorry, and 
please tell me where]

Remember how at the end of Book 3, DD tells Harry that when a wizard 
saves another wizard's life, a bond is created between them? Won't 
that mean that there was (or maybe still is) a bond between Snape 
and James? Would such a thing affect Snape today (maybe this bond 
passed to Harry)?

Hmm...

Amanar (why can't Snape be a vamp? WHY? Oh cruel world!)




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 28 07:14:50 2004
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 07:14:50 -0000
Subject: Homorphus Charm - Cured Red Herring
In-Reply-To: <01d601c41470$342921a0$536a6744@DEAN>
Message-ID: <c45u1a+hjd5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94250

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cindy Jenkins" <CindyJ2 at c...>
wrote:
> 
> > "... -I then screwed up my remaining strength and performed the 
> > immensely complex Homorphus Charm - ...- the fur vanished - the 
> > fangs shrank - and he turned back into a man.
> > 
> > Simple, yet effective - and another village will remember me 
> > forever as the hero who delivered them from the monthly terror of 
> > werewolf attacks."
> 
> bboy_mn wrote:
> 
> >First, it is real. Second, it is not a 'medical' charm, but a
> >defensive charm. ...
> 
> >As I said the charm does not cure werewolfism. It forces a werewolf
> >back into human form, and may force enough humanity back into the
> >person to stop a werewolf attack. ...
> 
> >I also believe that the charm is transient. That is, it's good for
> >maybe an hour. In that hours time, you must either flee, or capture
> >and imprison the werewolf.
> 
> Me now--
> 
> I'm curious...  Why do you think this?  Is there something in canon 
> to suggest it?
> 
> I suppose you could interpret the passage that way.  
>

bboy_mn:

When we have only a seed of information, and we would like to know
more, absent any further information, all we can do is IMAGINE what
might be a LIKELY extension of the concept.

In other words, when in doubt, make something up. BUT, and this is a
big but, it can't just be random fantasy, it has to be a LIKELY
extension of the world that we do have documented.

> Cindy continues:
>
> I think you can also read it as a cure.  ...edited...
>


bboy_mn: 
Except we have documentation in 'Fantastic Beast...' that says there
is no known cure for werewolfism. 

True the (far) above quote does say, "... delivered them from the
monthly terror of werewolf attacks...", but as noted, the book
"Fantastic Beast..." says there is currently no cure. That means the
transformation is not permanent. Logical conclusion then is that it is
temporary. Now we only need to determine how temporary.



> Cindy responds:
> 
> I don't think JRK would intentionally write contradictory canon.  In
> FB, she writes that there's no known cure for werewolfism, but the 
> passage from Lockhart (to me, anyway) suggests that there is a cure. 
>

bboy_mn:

Again, I come back to what is likely taking precedence over what is
possible. If we interpret the quote as implying a cure, then we have a
contradiction with 'Fantastic Beasts...' as well as a contradiction to
Mr. Weasley statements when he is in the hospital. Now, Mr. Weasley
may not be correct in his assessment, but his statements would seem to
reflect the overal concensus of the general wizarding population, and
consistent with the more common myths regarding werewolfism. However,
if we interpret it as a temporary charm, then the two (actually 3)
books are consistent. Given that, and acknowledging that both
interpretations are possible, which is more likely? Personally, I have
to go with consistent interpretations.


 
> Cindy concludes:
>
> Lockhart admits in COS *he* didn't perform the feats, but he says
> *somebody* did, and he had to track them down and find out exactly 
> what happened.  If he's going to 'fess up to stealing their stories,
> why wouldn't he just admit the whole thing was a lie?  I think it's 
> because it isn't--he really did find someone who cured
> werewolfism.
> 
> I really think that Lupin will be eventually cured, and this charm
> will be part of it.  I really hope so, too, because I like the guy.
> 
> Cindy


bboy_mn:
All Lockhart says is that the werewolf was transformed back into a
human in that moment. Then he says that the village was saved from
monthly attackes.

Let change werewolf attacks to burglary to create a new perspective.
If the burglar is unmasked, that is, if he is identified, that would
seem to logically stop future burglaries (by that person). Everyone
knows who the burglar is, so he can't get away with it any more. That
same principle applies equally to werewolf attacks. 

It would seem reasonable that once a werewolf is discovered, if he
values his life, he will flee from the village he is in, and take up
residence somewhere else. And even in the new location, his secret
could easily be discovered by others; people talk to people, word gets
around. So, the village is saved without curing the werewolf; the
werewolf flees, dies, or is imprisoned.

In addition, Lockhart is a very popular author, many many wizards have
read his books and have them in their homes. If that passage could be
interpreted as a cure, someone in the wizard world would have done so,
and started researching the subject. If there was a charm somewhere
that could cure a terrible disease that has plagued men for centuries,
certainly that would not go unnoticed. That would be headline news,
top priority research.

I will admit, I can see your point, I just don't think it is correct.
But remember, we are all guessing. We have two key pieces of
information that could imply an as yet unnoticed cure. JKR said in FB
that there was no KNOWN cure. Then in Lockharts book or at least his
narative, he say he force a werewolf to transform, and saved a village
 from MONTHLY terror. That does create a 'maybe'. It does create room
for the possibility that at some point in the story those two
'maybe's' will merge into a 'YES!'.

But again, I personally weigh in my own mind, what is POSSIBLE against
what is LIKELY, and I don't think it is likely that this Charm is the
cure. I could forsee a cure, but not in the scope of this 7 part
series, unless it is mentioned in the epilog as something occuring at
some future time.

However, I could see Hermione studing the charm and learning it, and
when the TRIO is inadvertently trapped with Lupin after he transforms,
 the ever brilliant Hermione saves the day. 

Again, I do see your point, I do see that element of uncertainly; but
personally, I don't think it is likely.

Just one man's opinion.

bboy_mn






From helen at odegard.com  Sun Mar 28 07:27:22 2004
From: helen at odegard.com (Helen R. Granberry)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 23:27:22 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron=DD?
In-Reply-To: <Sea2-F17quG8Yss93Do0002f5ae@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000001c41496$1ca93e40$6401a8c0@helenw1>

No: HPFGUIDX 94251




The Ron=DD theory has always fascinated me. The questions over the fact of 
DD knowing something he shouldn't before it happens are quite intriguing 
making it appear logical that "someone" went back in time and became DD. 
This much I believe could be true, "someone" could have. I do however have a

bit of difficulty as to Ron being the one to do it. Ron has never shown any 
signs of being "extremely" talented in the ways that would be necessary to 
perform such a feat. The one that I had seen as at least capable were Fred 
and George. Some initial examples: (sounds ludicrous? please read on)

<snip>

These are just a few examples that would make the twins more apt to be DD. 
But, when I first noticed just how very talented they were and thought of 
the likelihood of the DD scenario I immediately dismissed the idea because, 
of course, there are "two" of them. Just recently however when I was 
reading, the idea relit when I saw DD's brother Aberforth. Could Aberforth 
possibly be Albus' twin? Could they both have gone back in time?

I honestly don't see any more of a problem with this Twins/DD theory than 
the Ron/DD theory, both scenarios' are equally questionable. I do favor this

one because of the twin's greater capabilities.

Kathy


Helen (LizardLaugh) replies:

I've been a fan of this theory for ages myself. I don't think Dumbledore is
one of the twins for one main reason: Dumbledore isn't built like the twins
at all. The twins as well as Charlie are shorter and stockier, while Ron,
Bill and Percy are tall skinny (like Dumbledore). If Dumbledore is a Weasley
that isn't Ron, my guess would be Percy. As for Aberforth, I think he is
Sirius, but that would take too much explain, lol.

As for Ron's lack of ability in the magic department, I actually think this
is more an argument in FAVOR of Ron=DD than against (assuming Dumbledore is
a Weasley). It's a beautiful red hai- er, herring :) Ron is overlooked. He's
not special in any way. He is overshadowed by older brothers who are all
seemingly more talented than him in all kinds of ways. He is overshadowed by
his best friends, The Boy Who Lived and The Smartest Witch at Hogwarts. If I
were going to pick the kid to become the Greatest Wizard of Our Time, I
would pick the kid you wouldn't expect because it makes the most dramatic
transformation. Poor, neglected, unremarkable Ron becomes The Only One He
Ever Feared. 

I keep thinking about the Mirror of Erised and what Ron sees... he sees
himself more special than all of his brothers -- Head Boy, Quidditch
Captain, holding the House and Quidditch Cups. Ron aspires to greatness.
Dumbledore is his HERO, as mentioned or implied in a few different places in
the books, the latest instance being in OotP where he props up Dumbledore's
chocolate Frog card in the hospital wing and goes into detail about exactly
what HE would do about this Divination business if HE were Dumbledore. 

Now, the funny thing about Ron is that when he gets a bit of what he wants,
it turns out to be nothing like he wants. He's made Prefect, but it is a lot
of responsibility and he has a hard time with his brothers. He makes the
Quidditch team, but he's just not very good at it at first. He finally helps
win the Quidditch cup, but not before going through some pretty harsh hazing
by the Slytherins and embarrassing himself in front of the whole school. He
hero worships Dumbledore, but being Dumbledore is some sad, lonely, hard
business as well. 

As an aside, I don't think Ron is so bad at magic. He didn't have a proper
wand until third year. We see him contrasted against Hermione and Harry.
However, he's not any worse than Harry at any subject besides DADA and even
there, he's way ahead of where a kid his age should be. Dumbledore is very
powerful, but he is also 150 years old. We have one reference to him 'doing
things with a wand Marchbanks had never seen before' for the NEWT, but this
actually works well in Ron=DD's favor because after all Ron has learned
through his associations with Harry and over a hundred years of magical
advancement, he *would* be able to do things with a wand no one in the 19th
century magical world had seen before. 

Helen, who could go on for hours about Ron=DD, but needs to get back to work




From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 28 07:54:15 2004
From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 07:54:15 -0000
Subject: Ron=DD?
In-Reply-To: <Sea2-F17quG8Yss93Do0002f5ae@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <c460b7+10rc6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94252

Interesting and thought-provoking as this theory is, the canon refutation is pretty 
straight-forward: in OotP (sorry, don't have my copy available), the old witch who is 
overseeing the OWL tests tells Umbridge that she, herself, administered DD's OWL's and 
that he "did things with a wand I've never seen before." Hard to imagine why she'd say that 
if it were Ron (or any of the other redheads)--they wouldn't need to take the OWLs again.

Antosha




From helen at odegard.com  Sun Mar 28 08:44:03 2004
From: helen at odegard.com (Helen R. Granberry)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 00:44:03 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron=DD?
In-Reply-To: <c460b7+10rc6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000301c414a0$d366f780$6401a8c0@helenw1>

No: HPFGUIDX 94253


Interesting and thought-provoking as this theory is, the canon refutation is
pretty 
straight-forward: in OotP (sorry, don't have my copy available), the old
witch who is 
overseeing the OWL tests tells Umbridge that she, herself, administered DD's
OWL's and 
that he "did things with a wand I've never seen before." Hard to imagine why
she'd say that 
if it were Ron (or any of the other redheads)--they wouldn't need to take
the OWLs again.

Antosha


Griselda Marchbanks administered Dumbledore's Charms NEWT, not OWL. They
don't take the NEWTs until the very, very end of seventh year. 

Something interesting about Marchbanks... When she arrives and is being
shown around by Umbridge, the trio is hanging around listening. When
Marchbanks is very pointedly looking for Dumbledore, expecting him to leap
out of a cupboard, Ron is leaning over tying his shoelace where she can't
see him. 

Helen
 




From naama2486 at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 28 08:55:43 2004
From: naama2486 at yahoo.com (Amanar)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 08:55:43 -0000
Subject: Snape's capacity for positive emotion
In-Reply-To: <c45atd+iddp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c463uf+4pnt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94254

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "helopookie" <helopookie at y...> 
wrote:
> Amanda wrote:
> >No. Many years ago, when we had a few books under our belts, 
before 
> serious
> rumors rumbled that a movie was in the works, a friend and I had 
> long, 
> fun
> discussions "casting" a HP movie.
> 
> Drawn from the imagery and characterization in the books, we lit 
upon 
> Alan
> Rickman as the perfect Snape
>
> 
> Now me:
> I had always thought of Snape as Richard O'Brien.  The 
descriptions 
> that JKR uses makes me think of him.  The image was so much of the 
> character I built for the books that I still "see" him as I read 
the 
> books.
> 
> Ben

Amanar:

I always thought Dustin Hoffman would make the perfect Snape. just 
look at his role in The Messenger: The Story of Joan of Arc (1999). 
There is of course that minor drawback of his being American, but I 
still see him as the best casting. And the nose. 

What I didn't like about Alan Rickman's acting in the HP movies was 
his lack of, how shall we put it? Negative emotions. It stands out 
particularly in the second movie. First, when Harry and Ron get 
caught stealing the car. Snape didn't even sneer. No gloats, no 
cruelity, no snide remarks, no nothing, while in the book he's so 
happy he "looks as though christmas had come early" (not exact 
quote). He just keeps yelling at them as if he was Harry's father. 
The second scene that was a serious let-down is the duel between 
Snape and Lockhart. Again, no hate, no anger, no clenched teeth. 
Rickman just stands there like a black wigged scarecrow. That's 
definitely not how I see Snape, and I think you would agree.

Amanar.




From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Sun Mar 28 08:57:59 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 08:57:59 -0000
Subject: Evaluating Snape (was: Re: Lupin's resentment )
In-Reply-To: <c451ej+bin7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4642n+emli@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94255

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" <susiequsie23 at s...> 
wrote:
> 
> Siriusly Snapey Susan retorted:
> >Ah, is it a tale told by an idiot, then, too? Do tell! ;-)
> 
> Kneasy:
> > Quite  possibly. And there are those that would agree with you.
> 
> 
> Siriusly Snapey Susan:
> Ack!!  I was just picking up on the Shakespeare thread. *I* would 
> not argue that Snape is an idiot.  Well, actually, I find his 
> teaching methods sometimes idiotic, but beyond that, I do not see 
> him as an idiot at all.  Quite the opposite.
> 
>
Kneasy:
Snape? You were talking about Snape? How interesting.
But I  agree; he's not an idiot, so that's all right.

> 
> Siriusly Snapey Susan:
> No evidence??  You mean like his lack of progress w/ Occlumency?  I 
> suspect if Lupin, McGonagall, DD, heck, throw in Flitwick, had been 
> Harry's Occulumency teacher, he *would* have learned.  Their history-
> -which is a *two-way street* of assumptions and nastiness and hatred-
> -directly affects Harry's ability & willingness to learn 
> Occlumency.  Notice I'm not absolving Harry of responsibility for 
> his part in the matter, but I am saying that I do indeed believe 
> that what Snape has thrown at Harry for five years *has* most 
> definitely affected Harry in this way.
>  
>
Kneasy:
Here we diverge.
Snape is an equal opportunity tyrant. Annoy  him and you'll know
about it, no matter who you are.

What  was very significant IMO was that Snape started needling
Harry  from day one. This  is  not an accident. It was deliberate
and contrived. Most posters would agree with that. The critical
question is "Why?"

We  agree  that Snape is not an idiot; just the opposite - he seems
to  be regarded as a Potions super-star. Would such a calculating,
cold-blooded, non-trivial individual be so unthinking and petty as
to resurrect an old quarrel with a person now dead down to the
second generation? Not without a fresh impetus, I think.

The key word is 'calculating'. What does Snape have to gain from
giving  Harry  the  hard word  at every opportunity? Not much.
Unless you  think in wider terms. He has his credentials with the
DEs and through them to Voldy to think about. And kids will talk.
It wouldn't do for the likes of Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle to get the
impression that Sevvy was going soft on the Potter kid.

If what most of us think is true about Snape's work for the Order,
then he must be a superb actor to be able to get away with it.
Every good actor needs his props - and Harry  (and Neville) come
in very handy indeed.

DD helps the action along. He gives Harry a reason why Snape hates
him. His father. This to an 11 year old who doesn't know which way 
is up in the WW. So now when anyone wonders what's going on, Harry
can tell them. All nicely wrapped up. This story will run and run.

I've posted before that  I believe that DD  and Snape are one of the 
best double-acts in the business. DD knows exactly what is going on,
IMO it was probably his idea. All part of his "Let's make sure Harry
is not coddled, spoilt or hero-worshipped" plan. After 11 years in 
the Muggle  world and seeing the  WW as a refuge he needs to learn
very, very quickly that there are some nasty people around. And he
needs to learn how to cope with them. What better  place to  learn 
than at school? So in a way what Snape does is intended to  have
an effect on Harry - but it's for a positive reason.
  
Now I don't  claim that Snape likes Harry. He probably doesn't like
anyone much, but he knows and  appreciates  that Harry isn't James
or Sirius.Them he will never forgive, but he has no real argument
with Harry, just general levels of scorn and contempt, suitable for
any incompetent in his classes. Exaggerating his attitudes towards 
Harry would most likely give him a perverse pleasure.

Harry, on the other  hand... Hoo! For him it's all real.  Snape hates
him and he hates Snape; even when he finds out that they're both
on the same side. Snape and DD believe that they can live with this,
it's only a schoolboy's emotional spasm, but it blows up in their
faces when it comes to Occlumency. Harry is so adamantly anti-
Snape (anti-everybody, come to that), that he will not co-operate.

It'll probably continue, too. Expect tears before bedtime as Harry
follows emotions rather than reason. And it was emotions that
got Sirius killed. 


 > 
> Siriusly Snapey Susan:
> Jeepers, I made that up!  I should NEVER have coined the phrase in 
> the first place; it was half in jest, which clearly didn't come 
> through.  

 
 Kneasy:
Splendid! I like it! An imaginary concept thrown into the thread just
to wind everybody up. Must remember to try that myself at an
opportune moment.






From djrfdh at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 28 11:08:01 2004
From: djrfdh at yahoo.com (djrfdh)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 11:08:01 -0000
Subject: Voldemort's defeat
In-Reply-To: <c45ktv+r2t9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c46bmh+ta85@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94256

> Puja:
> JKR often hints at Harry's defeat. However in PS she shows LV 
> drinking unicorn blood (thru Prof. Quirrel). Drinking unicorn blood 
> gives the person "a half life, a cursed life". Does this imply that 
> LV will definitely be defeated or did that refer to Prof Quirrel 
> having a half and cursed life because he was the one drinking unicorn 
> blood. 

Actually, wasn't it Voldemort who drank the unicorn blood? Remember, 
his head was attached to Quirrel's? I'm with you in looking for any 
excuse for Harry not to die, but it was Voldemort who said "see what 
I have become; a parasite.....have to live off another!"

I'm more intrigued by the part in Goblet of Fire, when Voldemort uses 
Harry's blood to come back in human form....remember, Dumbledore was 
very pleased at this revelation when Harry told him what had 
happened.  

I do not believe it will be Harry that dies....however, don't quote 
me! And I, somehow, don't think it will be Harry that kills Voldemort!

I will be glad when the next two books come out....this waiting is 
torture! (But, I'm not in a hurry to be at the end....know what I 
mean?)

What fascinates everyone (older) about Harry? 






From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 28 11:50:41 2004
From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 11:50:41 -0000
Subject: Homorphus Charm - Cured Red Herring
In-Reply-To: <c45u1a+hjd5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c46e6h+cnum@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94257

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cindy Jenkins" 
<CindyJ2 at c...> wrote:
> > I think you can also read it as a cure.  ...edited...
> 
> Except we have documentation in 'Fantastic Beast...' that says 
there
> is no known cure for werewolfism. 

I think one of the more clever bits of writing by JKR is that she 
does NOT say: "There is no cure." Instead she says "There is no 
KNOWN cure." What is the difference and what does this mean? Well, 
to my mind it means JKR:

1- Wants the casual reader to infer that lycanthropy is incurable
2- Wants to have planted the seeds in canon for, if the day comes 
when, say, Lupin is cured, being able to answer for what many will 
see as contradictory. ("Ah, but it was written there was no *known* 
cure you see.")

> Again, I come back to what is likely taking precedence over what is
> possible. If we interpret the quote as implying a cure, then we 
have a
> contradiction with 'Fantastic Beasts...' as well as a 
contradiction to
> Mr. Weasley statements when he is in the hospital. Now, Mr. Weasley
> may not be correct in his assessment, but his statements would 
seem to
> reflect the overal concensus of the general wizarding population, 
and
> consistent with the more common myths regarding werewolfism. 

I think while that is true, it may well also be that nobody has ever 
thought of using the immensely complex Homorphus charm to 
treat/deal/cure werewolfism*. If this were the case, then everything 
in canon remains congruent.

-Joe in SoFla

* Maybe nobody has thought of mixing this charm with the Wolfbane 
potion or another magical spell/charm/potion. We have canon evidence 
of totally new and unexpected results to combinations of jinxes or 
spells.




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sun Mar 28 12:25:58 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 12:25:58 -0000
Subject: was Lupin'sSnape's resentment/ nowSnape and Prophesy
In-Reply-To: <c44lh1+fas9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c46g8m+ovoe@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94258

x
> 
> 
> Neri:
 Did you thought for a minute, how is it that Neville's 
> greatest fear is Snape? We are talking here about a boy whom both 
his 
> parents were tortured to insanity. A boy whom his own uncle was 
> throwing him out of third floor windows and piers. And what is he 
> most terrified of? His teacher.
> 
> I may forgive Snape his long abuse of Harry because Harry is tough 
> and can take it, and because there is a continuing vendetta between 
> them. But one thing I don't forgive Snape is abusing Neville. 
Neville 
> did nothing to Snape. Nevill's parents, as far as we know, did 
> nothing to Snape either.

Potioncat:
I don't believe for a moment this hasn't come up before, but I'll 
ask...Isn't it a coincidence that the two students we see Snape 
really pick on are the two who seem be in the prophesy?

Potioncat 





From Zarleycat at aol.com  Sun Mar 28 12:37:05 2004
From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 12:37:05 -0000
Subject: Life-saving bonds
In-Reply-To: <c45tu4+4fve@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c46gth+cc6r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94259

 "Naama" wrote:

> [I hope this hasn't been brought up before. If it has - sorry, and 
> please tell me where]
> 
> Remember how at the end of Book 3, DD tells Harry that when a 
wizard 
> saves another wizard's life, a bond is created between them? Won't 
> that mean that there was (or maybe still is) a bond between Snape 
> and James? Would such a thing affect Snape today (maybe this bond 
> passed to Harry)?

Marianne:

The subject of life bonds or life debts has come up, but it's 
anyone's guess if you'll be able to find it using the primitive 
search capabilities here.  

The whole concept strikes me as somewhat vague.  Maybe that's 
deliberate on JKR's part, or maybe she hasn't decided what, if 
anything, she's going to do about it.  The implication has been made 
that Peter is now in Harry's debt and that this is not going to be 
happy news to Voldemort.  The implication has also been made that 
Snape had a debt to James.

What has not been explained in the books is to what extent these 
debts exist. For how long? What action repays a debt? I'd assume that 
if a debt comes into being because you've saved my life, can I only 
repay it by saving your life?  Can I repay it by saving the life of 
someone you love?  Can I repay it by doing other good works for those 
who need help?  

And, what if I really can't stand you and I'm generally pissed off 
that now I'm in your debt?  What happens if I get the opportunity to 
pay back that debt by saving your life, and I simply decide to let 
you die? Do I then get some other punishment?  From who?  God and 
religion don't seem to play a particularly overt part in the Wizard 
World, so there doesn't seem to be a "God will punish you" rationale.

The whole fuzzy idea seems to be based on a code of honor that 
implies that, of course, a debt will be repaid at the appropriate 
time and in an appropriate way.  Are we taking that at face value 
when perhaps we shouldn't?

Marianne, who's sure that Peter won't repay any debt for purely 
selfless and/or honorable reasons





From djrfdh at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 28 11:35:26 2004
From: djrfdh at yahoo.com (djrfdh)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 11:35:26 -0000
Subject: Harry's anger: teen angst or channeling Voldemort?
In-Reply-To: <c452f0+to4q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c46d9u+3s1l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94260

I can also relate to some of the anger that Harry feels in OOTP, 
however, I do not think it's just because he is a teenager...like you 
said, Hermione and Ron manage to "escape" the violent temper part; 
however, look at the root of most of Harry's anger....he's realizing 
that his parents were murdered by an evil wizard, who, incidentally, 
just happens to be "tied" to his thoughts and dreams! He's an orphan 
and ridiculed and  despised by his only blood relative. No one, 
really, has any idea the things that Harry goes through...for 
example, the replaying of his parents' death whenever dementors are 
around....that's enough to scare anyone to death! It's a living 
nightmare! He's been "beaten-down" for most of his childhood, with no 
one to look up to; no instruction on how to behave or being allowed 
to have friends;simple things like having his birthday remembered by 
his family; presents; not even a simple gesture of being hugged....he 
can't feel like anyone really loves him or cares what happens to 
him...and since he's also new in the "wizarding world", he's having 
to find his way there too...and not without some real "angst", 
afterall, he has no previous experience to fall back on and he has an 
image to uphold because of who he is and the fact that he survived a 
direct attack from Voltemort! I mean, imagine being famous and having 
everyone picking your life to pieces even before you had any idea 
what you were going to do!

You would think Dumbledore would be more aware of Harry's problems; 
perhaps he is, but has to let Harry find his own way, for whatever 
reasons.You just can't help but feel sorry for Harry, but not in the 
pitiful sense....you just want to help him, to give him a hug!





From dk59us at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 28 12:54:25 2004
From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 12:54:25 -0000
Subject: Clue that Dumbledore and Harry had a previous relationship...
In-Reply-To: <c44fsp+ln6i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c46hu1+m4u8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94261

vmonte wrote:
<snip>
At first you think that Dumbledore avoided looking in Harry's eyes
during OOTP because he did not want Voldemort to know that he and
Harry had more than just a student teacher relationship? But if you
read that quote again the words "or had ever been" are actually
highlighted/separated from the rest of the sentence.

Is this inferring a previous relationship (different from DD &
Harry's current relationship)that Voldemort knows nothin

If DD is Ron it makes sense.  If Voldemort were to find out that 
DD=Ron then Ron would also become a target of the DEs.   
vmonte

Eustace_Scrubb now:

I suspect that we'll find that Ron (and Hermione and their families)
will become targets of the DEs anyway.  I doubt LV needs to see that
Ron=DD for that to happen.  After the MoM fight, if not before, LV
will know that Harry has several close friends/allies who are also
becoming dangerous to LV but who may not be as well protected as
Harry.  I think that LV may (at least in Book 6) concentrate on
weakening Harry by attacking those around him--as he has failed
miserably when going after Harry directly.

I don't think this statement by DD provides evidence that Ron=DD,
although if you already accept the theory, it may be interpreted as
corroboration. 

Eustace_Scrubb




From vmonte at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 28 13:54:00 2004
From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 13:54:00 -0000
Subject: Question: Has Snape ever picked on Ron in class?
Message-ID: <c46ldo+scad@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94262

vmonte writes:
Has Snape ever picked on Ron in class? If so, does anyone remember 
what he said to Ron? (For some reason I can only remember him picking 
on Harry, Hermione, and Neville.) 

All I can remember is Snape (if this is movie contamination I 
apologize) stopping Ron from entering the dueling event because of 
his defective wand. (Another wand related moment was Minerva telling 
Ron that he needed to replace his wand in Transfiguration class.) 

I'm just wondering about something...

vmonte






From vmonte at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 28 14:36:12 2004
From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 14:36:12 -0000
Subject: For the DD=Ron fans.  Does Ron become Flamel's apprentice?
Message-ID: <c46nss+c0ki@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94265

vmonte here:

For the DD=Ron fans:

Ron is going to be young when he goes back in time so it would make
sense that he will probably stay with a family (or with someone).

Do you think that Ron goes back in time and becomes Flamel's
apprentice? The Flamel family would then be more like a second
family to Ron.

I'm sure that Flamel would be able to teach Ron quite a lot!

It would also make sense as to why Dumbledore would later on keep the
SS/PS at the school. He is trying to protect and save his surrogate
parents?!

(Perhaps something he couldn't do for his real parents!)

vmonte





From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Sun Mar 28 14:46:34 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 14:46:34 -0000
Subject: Question: Has Snape ever picked on Ron in class?
In-Reply-To: <c46ldo+scad@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c46oga+esns@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94266

vmonte writes:
> Has Snape ever picked on Ron in class? If so, does anyone remember 
> what he said to Ron? (For some reason I can only remember him 
picking 
> on Harry, Hermione, and Neville.) 
> 
> All I can remember is Snape (if this is movie contamination I 
> apologize) stopping Ron from entering the dueling event because of 
> his defective wand. (Another wand related moment was Minerva 
telling 
> Ron that he needed to replace his wand in Transfiguration class.) 
>

I just read this bit the other night when I was looking for "Snape 
picking on Harry" examples. :-)  Anyway, this *was* movie 
contamination.  In the book they were pairing up, and Snape made the 
comment about Neville & his general abilities, rather than about Ron 
& his broken wand.

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sun Mar 28 14:59:45 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 14:59:45 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c45lmu+j3d5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c46p91+gqab@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94267


> Sue piping in:
> This thread made me think of something bigger that Lupin may 
have  wanted to accomplish.  Though Neville was the one who's 
Boggart  turned into Snape, most of the kids are afraid of him.  
Perhaps this was just Lupin's version of "imagine the audience 
in their  underwear".  IOW, he's just a man boys and girls.  
> 
> I will pose the question to the folks out there who think what 
Lupin did was wrong:  What would you have him do?  Maybe let 
Neville's imagination run wild and decapitate the good 
professor?  Crucio perhaps?  Or maybe "I'm sorry Neville, I can't 
teach you how to fight  a Boggart (even though they are in 
cabinets around school and will be  on the final exam) out of 
profesional courtesy."  
> 
> Anyone? 


Okay. It seems to me that you've fallen for one of JKR's clever 
bits of misdirection (haven't we all?) The lesson "imagine that 
bully in his underwear" is  plainly and powerfully conveyed *to 
the reader.* Unless you're paying very careful attention to that 
one line that says Neville's problems with Snape are worse than 
ever, you won't see that Harry and Neville didn't get it.

 Lupin's lesson goes right past their obtuse thirteen year old 
minds, and Lupin doesn't appear to notice or care That's why I 
have a hard time thinking he did it for their benefit. Canon shows 
them both just as intimidated by Snape as they ever were. 

As for how Lupin could have handled it,  the text  suggests a 
multiplicity of ways.  Neville himself expects that he'll be asked to 
imagine something else he's afraid of:  "I don't want the boggart 
to turn into her either."  We saw that  happen in OOP, where 
Molly's boggart took multiple shapes.  
 
Couldn't Lupin have said, "Hmmm...sounds like you've had 
enough trouble with Professor Snape for one day " and helped 
him think of something else? Neville's highly suggestible as 
everyone knows, look at the way Prof. Trelawney psyched him 
into breaking that cup. 

Lupin could also have passed over Neville as he did with 
Hermione, or arranged a private lesson as he did with  Harry, or 
he could have arranged a less public confrontation as he did on 
the DADA final. But I'm afraid all he cared about was ingratiating  
himself with the Gryffindors and scoring a few points off Snape.

Pippin
who thinks the world isn't divided into people who are good with 
children and Death Eaters

 




From greatelderone at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 28 15:54:55 2004
From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 15:54:55 -0000
Subject: Life-saving bonds
In-Reply-To: <c46gth+cc6r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c46sgf+b3kp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94268

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kiricat2001" <Zarleycat at a...> 
wrote:
 
> What has not been explained in the books is to what extent these 
> debts exist. For how long? What action repays a debt? I'd assume 
that 
> if a debt comes into being because you've saved my life, can I only 
> repay it by saving your life?  Can I repay it by saving the life of 
> someone you love?  Can I repay it by doing other good works for 
those 
> who need help?  

I think it's perhaps a life for a life either yours or that of one 
you equally value which would explain why Snape was trying to save 
Harry in PS/SS.

> And, what if I really can't stand you and I'm generally pissed off 
> that now I'm in your debt?  What happens if I get the opportunity 
to 
> pay back that debt by saving your life, and I simply decide to let 
> you die? 

I don't think you are allowed to do that.

> Do I then get some other punishment?  From who?  God and 
> religion don't seem to play a particularly overt part in the Wizard 
> World, so there doesn't seem to be a "God will punish you" 
rationale.
> 

Kindly Ones perhaps? They were known to punish this kind of stuff I 
recall. Wouldn't this kind of life debt fit under oath?

> The whole fuzzy idea seems to be based on a code of honor that 
> implies that, of course, a debt will be repaid at the appropriate 
> time and in an appropriate way.  Are we taking that at face value 
> when perhaps we shouldn't?

I think it's perhaps a code of honor sealed by magic so you can't go 
against it. It probably works the same way as the magic that allowed 
Lily to save Harry by a sacrifice of her own life.




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Mar 28 16:04:28 2004
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 28 Mar 2004 16:04:28 -0000
Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat 
Message-ID: <1080489868.61.71729.m13@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94269


We would like to remind you of this upcoming event.

Weekly Chat 

Date: Sunday, March 28, 2004 
Time: 11:00AM CST (GMT-06:00) 

Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern, 7
pm UK time. Chat times do not change for Daylight Saving/Summer
Time. Chat generally goes on for about 5 hours, but can last as
long as people want it to last.

Go into any Yahoo chat room and type: /join HP:1 

Hope to see you there! 

 





From stevejjen at earthlink.net  Sun Mar 28 16:09:24 2004
From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 16:09:24 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c46p91+gqab@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c46tbk+c6k0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94270

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> 
wrote:
> Okay. It seems to me that you've fallen for one of JKR's clever 
> bits of misdirection (haven't we all?) The lesson "imagine that 
> bully in his underwear" is  plainly and powerfully conveyed *to 
> the reader.* Unless you're paying very careful attention to that 
> one line that says Neville's problems with Snape are worse than 
> ever, you won't see that Harry and Neville didn't get it.
> 

Jen: Whenever I read a thread on this issue, I'm always reminded of 
this quote by JKR:

Q: "Why does Professor Dumbledore allow Professor Snape to be so 
nasty to the students (especially to Harry, Hermione, and Neville)? 

A: "Dumbledore believes there are all sorts of lessons in life; 
horrible teachers like Snape are one of them!"

(Barnes and Noble Chat, 2000)

By extrapolation, I imagine that if someone asked JKR why Hogwarts 
was the type of school that allows Lupin to make a mockery of Snape 
in his class, she might have a very similar answer, something along 
the lines of, "well, the WW believes there are all sorts of lessons 
in life and having to face the consequences of magic is one of 
them!" 

Maybe Lupin's motives *weren't* pure in that moment, maybe he didn't 
think ahead, or he did think ahead and decided Neville and Harry 
were up for the challenge. Snape certainly got the opportunity to 
get back when he trashed Lupin in front of the class and later outed 
him as a werewolf. Certainly the children felt Snape's actions 
deprived them of one of their best teachers. So if one has dirty 
hands, the other does as well. Are the kids losers in all this? Yes, 
by our standards.

I just think we are *supposed* to see these parts of the WW as a way 
to underscore how inherently dangerous it is by nature. You won't 
just get insults hurled at you for your actions, whether they are 
intentional or a mistake (and few characters bother to sort out 
which is which before firing!).

Jen





From djrfdh at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 28 14:41:27 2004
From: djrfdh at yahoo.com (djrfdh)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 14:41:27 -0000
Subject: Question: Has Snape ever picked on Ron in class?
In-Reply-To: <c46ldo+scad@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c46o6n+cnm4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94271

Yes, Snape made Ron cut-up Malfoy's stems( after Malfoy's injury from 
teasing the Hippogriff) and when Ron mutilated them, Snape made Ron 
give Malfoy his perfectly-cut ones. (Prisoner Of Azkaban)





From jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Mar 28 12:42:47 2004
From: jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk (jlv230)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 12:42:47 -0000
Subject: Snape's house
Message-ID: <c46h87+tg5r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94272

Hello everyone ? I have really enjoyed reading your thoughts on
the books ? it has given me a lot of interesting things to think
about.  This is my first post so I don't know exactly how this will go
down, or if it has been mentioned (or refuted) before, but I had a 
thought when rereading the `Snape's worst memory' scene in OotP. 
Following the world book day chat we know that MWPP were in 
Gryffindor ? that's four boys.  If there are five boys per house per 
year (which isn't necessarily true), who is the fifth?

I thought that it may perhaps be Snape, which is possibly why he got 
on James and Sirius' nerves so much and why Snape was apparently
so interested in what they were up to.  Snape may have wanted to get 
into Slytherin (which explains why he is now their Head of House),  
but what if the sorting hat placed him in Gryffindor instead? If this 
is the case, it seems to me that Snape must have had a pretty lonely 
time at school.  The other four boys didn't like him (two hated
him), so he had to hang around on his own, or with a group of older 
Slytherins who spotted his potential, took him in and persuaded him 
to be a death eater ? which finally made him feel included.   He 
perhaps deducts so many points from Gryffindor because he had a such 
a rubbish time in the house and wants to get his own back on some 
level.

I know it is a bit far-fetched, but what do you guys think?
JLV





From tipgardner at netscape.net  Sun Mar 28 16:13:19 2004
From: tipgardner at netscape.net (tipgardner)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 16:13:19 -0000
Subject: Question: Has Snape ever picked on Ron in class?
In-Reply-To: <c46oga+esns@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c46tiv+23jn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94273

"cubfanbudwoman" <susiequsie23 at s...> wrote:
 
> I just read this bit the other night when I was looking for "Snape 
> picking on Harry" examples. :-)  Anyway, this *was* movie 
> contamination.  In the book they were pairing up, and Snape made the 
> comment about Neville & his general abilities, rather than about Ron 
> & his broken wand.

Tip nodded, not sagely:
It is so easy to attribute even more cruelty to Snape than he has
rightly earned.  If Snape comes from an old money pureblood family,
then I should imagine he was raised to despise the Weasley clan or at
least feel contempt for them.

Someone also wrote about Snape wanting to be headmaster and I see some
cannon evidence for that in CoS when Draco tells him to apply for the
job.  There is no evidence that one has to be nice in a DD way to hold
that position so I'm not sure why Snape would or wouldn't want it. 
But it reminds me of an interesting line I read in a fan fiction
somewhere about Snape wanting the dark arts job.  I think most of us
assume the basic truth of his DADA ambitions because we were told by
(Percy, I believe) in PS that Snape has them.  But we've never heard
from Snape or anyone else in cannon any sort of confirmation on that
topic.  

I suppose the point of my long (apologies!) ramble above is, we have
to be careful about assigning characteristics to Snape or attributing
desires to him, particularly negative ones, because his place in
cannon puts him in a position to accept those points, but cannon has
not actually ascribed any of them to him.

Tip
check out my journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/tipgardner
check out my fan fiction: http://www.schnoogle.com






From gsanderson at cfl.rr.com  Sun Mar 28 16:12:59 2004
From: gsanderson at cfl.rr.com (gsanderson at cfl.rr.com)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 16:12:59 -0000
Subject: Ron=DD?
In-Reply-To: <Sea2-F17quG8Yss93Do0002f5ae@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <c46tib+n6pu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94274

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathy King" <kking0731 at h...> 
wrote:
> 
> The Ron=DD theory has always fascinated me. The questions over the 
fact of 
> DD knowing something he shouldn't before it happens are quite 
intriguing 
> making it appear logical that "someone" went back in time and 
became DD. 
> This much I believe could be true, "someone" could have. I do 
however have a 
> bit of difficulty as to Ron being the one to do it. Ron has never 
shown any 
> signs of being "extremely" talented in the ways that would be 
necessary to 
> perform such a feat. The one that I had seen as at least capable 
were Fred 
> and George. Some initial examples: (sounds ludicrous? please read 
on)
<lots of good stuff removed)

I have also previously been a fan of this theory (either Ron or other 
Weasley being Dumbledore), but I couldn't make myself believe it in 
the face of glaring issues.  In order for this theory to be possible, 
Dumbledore would have the knowledge that Ron and/or Twins have by the 
end of the Harry Potter series.  However: 

- Dumbledore doesn't know about the Marauder's Map
- Dumbledore doesn't know that Sirius/Peter/James are animagus 
- Dumbeldore doesn't know that Sirius is innocent
- Dumbledore doesn't know that Peter is alive
- Dumbeldore doesn't know that Moody is Crouch Jr. 

Unless there's some major reason we don't yet know about that makes 
Dumbledore want to ignore what he knows, I'm not sure I can believe 
the theory.

Kristen





From djrfdh at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 28 15:23:30 2004
From: djrfdh at yahoo.com (djrfdh)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 15:23:30 -0000
Subject: What happened to Harry after the attack that killed his parents?
Message-ID: <c46qli+its9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94275

In my mind, there is some confusion as to when Hagrid took Harry from 
his demolished home, after the attack by Voldemort on Harry's 
parents. In Prisoner Of Azkaban, Hagrid says that he went to James 
and Lily's home after the attack and rescued Harry; however, it 
wasn't until the next night that he took Harry to Dumbledore at his 
aunt's house. 

Also, and I'm sure we will find out soon, why was it so important for 
Voldemort to kill Harry's parents? I have a really far-fetched 
theory, but perhaps Lily was Voldemort's granddaughter? (We don't 
know this, but there is always the reference to her green eyes, which 
would suggest that she has a part of Slytherin in her somewhere.) It 
would also explain why her sister hated her and her child...although 
I have a feeling that Petunia isn't as self-righteous as she would 
like everyone to think she is....I think she also has a past!

Sure wish JRR would release the next book! Between waiting for the 
next movie and trying to unravel all the clues, it would be good to 
have some fresh material!







From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 28 16:18:01 2004
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 16:18:01 -0000
Subject: Snape's house
In-Reply-To: <c46h87+tg5r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c46trp+h14d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94276

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jlv230" <jlv230 at y...> wrote:
> 
> Following the world book day chat we know that MWPP were in 
> Gryffindor ? that's four boys.  If there are five boys per house 
per 
> year (which isn't necessarily true), who is the fifth?
> 
> I thought that it may perhaps be Snape, which is possibly why he 
got 
> on James and Sirius' nerves so much and why Snape was apparently
> so interested in what they were up to.  Snape may have wanted to 
get 
> into Slytherin (which explains why he is now their Head of House),  
> but what if the sorting hat placed him in Gryffindor instead? If 
this 
> is the case, it seems to me that Snape must have had a pretty 
lonely 
> time at school.  The other four boys didn't like him (two hated
> him), so he had to hang around on his own, or with a group of older 
> Slytherins who spotted his potential, took him in and persuaded him 
> to be a death eater ? which finally made him feel included.   He 
> perhaps deducts so many points from Gryffindor because he had a 
such 
> a rubbish time in the house and wants to get his own back on some 
> level.
> 
> I know it is a bit far-fetched, but what do you guys think?



I said it before, I will say it again. I don't think it is far 
fetched at all, although many people will disagree. I don't think 
that "run with the gang of Slytherins" is enough to clearly place 
Snape in Slyhterins.


What if Sorting Hat had the same trouble placing Snape it had with 
Harry?

I would love "Snape in Gryffindor" to be one of the surprises JKR 
shows us and Harry at the end. That would be funny.

Alla




From tipgardner at netscape.net  Sun Mar 28 16:21:01 2004
From: tipgardner at netscape.net (tipgardner)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 16:21:01 -0000
Subject: Harry, Snape,Occlumency
In-Reply-To: <c45oaf+8ci5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c46u1d+7bpc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94277

"annemehr" wrote:
> Yes, twice-a-week lessons for over three months, and very little
> progress.  Harry's never failed like that before.  Even though he
did not practice nearly enough 

> So Occlumency lessons did indeed make Harry more vulnerable to the
> scar connection.  Yet Snape never warned Harry of this effect, which
> added to Harry's confusion.  No wonder the kid had trouble learning! 
> The more he practiced Occlumency (and he did manage to repel Snape
> more than once during lessons), the more open he was to the scar
> connection

Tip replied:
I feel that cannon implied (or stated?) something much more along the
lines of Harry not really wanting to stop the visions.  I think like
his terrible encounters with dementors, Harry is also somewhat drawn
to hear the voices of his parents, something he had never previously
heard.  So his desires were clashing with what he knew he sould or was
supposed to be doing.

Tip
check out my journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/tipgardner
check out my fan fiction: http://www.schnoogle.com




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sun Mar 28 16:24:50 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 16:24:50 -0000
Subject: Question: Has Snape ever picked on Ron in class?
In-Reply-To: <c46ldo+scad@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c46u8i+4lki@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94278

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" 
<vmonte at y...> wrote:
> vmonte writes:
> Has Snape ever picked on Ron in class? If so, does anyone 
remember  what he said to Ron? (For some reason I can only 
remember him picking  on Harry, Hermione, and Neville.) 
> 

The only times I can remember are when Ron has done 
something to provoke it. He's made to swap roots with Malfoy 
after deliberately mutilating Malfoy's roots in PoA, and he serves 
a detention with Harry in GoF after they start yelling at Snape 
because of the tooth incident. Mostly it seems that Snape, like 
Umbridge, will leave you alone if you "keep your head down and 
your temper under control." 

It's Harry's misfortune to stand out through no fault of his own. 
But the wizarding world sets great store in collective 
responsibility...which means that people can expect to suffer or 
benefit for things that they themselves didn't do. 

Come to think of it, there are many places in the real 
world, including some within driving distance of my house, 
where, if you can't get your hands on the !@#$ who dissed you, 
it's your honest duty to whack  a relative instead.  Snape probably 
thinks he's showing admirable restraint. 

Pippin




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 28 16:25:04 2004
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 16:25:04 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c46tbk+c6k0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c46u90+lt9a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94279

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" <stevejjen at e...> 
wrote:
> Jen: Whenever I read a thread on this issue, I'm always reminded of 
> this quote by JKR:
> 
> Q: "Why does Professor Dumbledore allow Professor Snape to be so 
> nasty to the students (especially to Harry, Hermione, and Neville)? 
> 
> A: "Dumbledore believes there are all sorts of lessons in life; 
> horrible teachers like Snape are one of them!"
> 
> (Barnes and Noble Chat, 2000)



That is very very true, but after ooP I strongly question 
Dumbledore's wisdom in making such decision.

 
> By extrapolation, I imagine that if someone asked JKR why Hogwarts 
> was the type of school that allows Lupin to make a mockery of Snape 
> in his class, she might have a very similar answer, something along 
> the lines of, "well, the WW believes there are all sorts of lessons 
> in life and having to face the consequences of magic is one of 
> them!" 
> 
> Maybe Lupin's motives *weren't* pure in that moment, maybe he 
didn't 
> think ahead, or he did think ahead and decided Neville and Harry 
> were up for the challenge. Snape certainly got the opportunity to 
> get back when he trashed Lupin in front of the class and later 
outed 
> him as a werewolf. Certainly the children felt Snape's actions 
> deprived them of one of their best teachers. So if one has dirty 
> hands, the other does as well. Are the kids losers in all this? 
Yes, 
> by our standards.


I am sure humiliating Snape came as extra bonus to Lupin, but I still 
think that he had Neville's needs in mind when he taught him how to 
deal with Boggart!Snape.


Yes, Snape did not stop bullying Neville at all, but if even once 
when Snape has a go at him, Neville can imagine dear Severus in a  
dress and laugh, if his confidence increased at least tiny-tiny bit, 
Lupin achieved his purpose.

Snape certainly got him good, poor man still could not find a job at 
the end of OoP.




Alla.
 
> 




From jhnbwmn at hotmail.com  Sun Mar 28 16:27:35 2004
From: jhnbwmn at hotmail.com (johnbowman19)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 16:27:35 -0000
Subject: Question: Has Snape ever picked on Ron in class?
In-Reply-To: <c46tiv+23jn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c46udn+ddih@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94280

I think most of us assume the basic truth of his DADA ambitions 
because we were told by
> (Percy, I believe) in PS that Snape has them.  But we've never 
heard
> from Snape or anyone else in cannon any sort of confirmation on 
that
> topic.  
> 
Hey all
We do have canon evidence that Snape wants the DADA job. It is in 
OOTP, where Umbridge inspects Snapes class. Umbridge asks Snape if 
it is true that he has applied for the DADA job every year since 
Quirrel, and that Snape applied for the DADA job the first year he 
was at Hogwarts. Snape replies that it is indeed true. Snape does 
want the DADA job

John who thinks Snape with the DADA job is like and alcoholic 
bartebder. 




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 28 16:29:39 2004
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 16:29:39 -0000
Subject: Question: Has Snape ever picked on Ron in class?
In-Reply-To: <c46u8i+4lki@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c46uhj+ol30@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94281

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> 
wrote:
> 
> It's Harry's misfortune to stand out through no fault of his own. 
> But the wizarding world sets great store in collective 
> responsibility...which means that people can expect to suffer or 
> benefit for things that they themselves didn't do. 


Let son suffer for the sins of father? I sure hope that is not the 
lesson JKR is trying to convey to us. Yes, Wizarding World and 
wisarding children are tougher than muggles, but I think that real 
world morales are applicable enought there.


Alla

 





From vmonte at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 28 16:29:57 2004
From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 16:29:57 -0000
Subject: For the DD=Ron fans.  Does Ron become Flamel's apprentice?
In-Reply-To: <c46nss+c0ki@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c46ui5+g003@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94282

For the DD=Ron fans:

We know from the chocolate frog cards that Dumbledore 
is "particularly famous for...his work on alchemy with his partner, 
Nicolas Flamel." 

The library book:
Flamel is "the only known maker of the Sorcerer's Stone." ...The 
stone will transform any metal into pure gold. It also produces the 
Elixir of Life, which will make the drinker immortal.  There have 
been many reports of the Sorcerer's Stone over the centuries, but the 
only Stone currently in existence belongs to Mr. Nicolas Flamel...who 
celebrated his six hundred and sixty-fifth birthday last year [and] 
enjoys a quiet life in Devon with his wife, Parnelle (six hundred and 
fifty-eight)." 

Since Dumbledore is only 150 years old and Flamel is over 600 years 
old it makes sense that he had nothing to do with the creation of the 
Sorcerer's/Philospher's Stone. (In fact the library book never says 
he had anything to do with it.) It therefore makes more sense that 
DD/Ron first started as Flamel's apprentice. 

Another interesting comment about the stone is that it can also 
transform any metal into pure gold.  

Let's say that Ron=DD. It would be very interesting if Harry's 
fortune in Gringotts was really due to Ron who uses the stone to make 
sure that Harry is taken care of for the rest of his life. 

In SS/PS DD tells harry that the Stone wasn't really that great 
anyway:  
"You know, the Stone was not such a wonderful thing.  As much money 
and life and you could want!  The two things most human beings would 
choose above all - the trouble is, humans do have a knack of choosing 
precisely those things that are worst for them." 

Is DD talking about Flamel or himself?  It sure sounds like something 
Ron would say.  (I'm not even going to go in the direction that 
perhaps Ron=Flamel=DD and Hermione=Parnelle=Minerva it's just to 
exhausting/confusing.) 

DD also tells Harry about Flamel and wife: 
"They have enough Elixir stored to set their affairs in order and 
then, yes, they will die."

This quote doesn't necessarily mean that the Flamel's are going to 
die immediately after book 1. 

Perhaps Flamel and wife are going to make a future appearance.  Maybe 
they have enough elixir stored to last a few more years until the end 
of book 7.   

vmonte







From vmonte at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 28 16:38:02 2004
From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 16:38:02 -0000
Subject: Ron=DD?
In-Reply-To: <c46tib+n6pu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c46v1a+p80l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94283

Kristen wrote:
 - Dumbledore doesn't know about the Marauder's Map
 - Dumbledore doesn't know that Sirius/Peter/James are animagus 
 - Dumbeldore doesn't know that Sirius is innocent
 - Dumbledore doesn't know that Peter is alive
 - Dumbeldore doesn't know that Moody is Crouch Jr. 
 
Unless there's some major reason we don't yet know about that makes 
Dumbledore want to ignore what he knows, I'm not sure I can believe 
the theory.

vmonte responds:

If time is not fixed and events can change the timeline, as Hermione 
implies, then Dumbledore may not know certain events because they 
unfolded differently the first time around.  I hope I'm clear!

vmonte 




From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 28 16:45:16 2004
From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (Ms Mo Me)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 08:45:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Luna's importance to the series
In-Reply-To: <1080463041.4845.13499.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040328164516.77172.qmail@web13506.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94284

Message: 11
   Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 03:11:36 -0000
   From: "unbound_to_the_circles"
<unbound_to_the_circles at yahoo.com>
Subject: Luna's importance to the series.


The Sorting Hat has spoken of the need for inter-house
unity. Now,
traditionally, we know that Gryffindor is aligned with
Hufflepuff;
conversely, this means Ravenclaw is tradionally
aligned with
Slytherin. 

<snip>

Luna breaks this. Although we have hints of
inter-house mingling
(Ginny and Harry both see Ravenclaws,) Luna openly
supports
Gryffindor. And she, like Harry (and Hermione, who
could have ended up
a Ravenclaw,) is unique to their house. Harry, because
he could have
fit into all of the houses. Luna is unique to her
house because it is
built on logic and intelligence, and yet she believes
in the
unbelievable. She calmly ignores the nasty behaviour
people from her
house shows her, and participates in the Battle of the
Department of
Mysteries. She also helps Harry through his pain of
losing Sirius -
for the first time, a character from another house
shows true
alignment with Harry, and a Gryffindor.

Luna, moreso than the DA, is the first step to
inter-house unity.

Seren, who wishes for a good butterbeer right about
now.



Mo:

I totally agree!

Luna is a very interesting and prominant character
right off the bat.  I just wonder why she didn't
appear earlier in the series.  
I think she IS rather intelligent.  Just because she
believes the stuff in the magazine, doesn't make her
UNintelligent.  I think she just doesn't care what
other people say because she is confident enough in
herself as a person.  Ginny likes her and is in
somewhat of an awe of her.  She finds Luna funny and
amusing, but at the same time, Ginny has the common
sense to know that she is "okay," as she says so on
the train.

Luna also calls it as it is.  She doesn't try to beat
around the bush, which I like. 

She also SEEMS unaffected by things, but is she?
Sometimes people put up a front in order to protect
themselves.  I wonder if all of her quirks are really
a front?  She has had some tragedy in her life: Her
mother dying, not really having any close friends,
being ridiculed by a lot of students, but she chooses
not to show herself being negatively affected by any
of it.  In some ways, I see her life slightly
paralleling Harry's.

I also am curious what is the story behind her name,
since JKR always does name-appropriate characters. 
Luna - relating to the moon, and Love-Good.  Does this
mean she is an openly Loving and Good character?  The
Luna part I am still thinking about.

~Mo, who is set in thinking that Luna, Lupin, Snape,
DD, HRH, and the rest of the gang are all really good
people!  No ESE's here!

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html



From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Sun Mar 28 17:02:44 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 17:02:44 -0000
Subject: Question: Has Snape ever picked on Ron in class?
In-Reply-To: <c46udn+ddih@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c470fk+nlbp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94285

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "johnbowman19" <jhnbwmn at h...> 
> We do have canon evidence that Snape wants the DADA job. It is in 
> OOTP, where Umbridge inspects Snapes class. Umbridge asks Snape if 
> it is true that he has applied for the DADA job every year since 
> Quirrel, and that Snape applied for the DADA job the first year he 
> was at Hogwarts. Snape replies that it is indeed true. Snape does 
> want the DADA job
> 
> John who thinks Snape with the DADA job is like and alcoholic 
> bartebder.

Hey, John.  You're absolutely right that there are points in the 
books where people talk about "everyone knowing" Snape fancies that 
DADA job, and you're right that Snape answered Umbridge's questions 
about applying for the job with affirmatives.

Some of us, however, believe that it's *possible* that the 
application for the DADA position & the non-squashing of the rumors 
that Snape's after the job are simply part of the ruse Snape & DD 
keep up to present a certain image of Snape to the DEs/DE's kids.  
(Kind of like those who believe Snape's unfair treatment of 
Harry/the Gryffindors and favoritism towards Draco/his Slytherin 
cronies is also part of that act.)

Personally, after that speech Snape gave in our crew's first year, 
I'm not sure I'll ever believe he doesn't *really* want to teach 
Potions.

Just one other view....

Siriusly Snapey Susan




From stevejjen at earthlink.net  Sun Mar 28 18:00:29 2004
From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 18:00:29 -0000
Subject: Snape, the "Deeply Horrible Person"
Message-ID: <c473rt+5luh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94286

I'm re-reading JKR interviews and ran across this one at Quick 
Quotes:

Q: Who's your favorite character besides Harry Potter?

A: It's very hard to choose. It's fun to write about Snape because 
he's a deeply horrible person. Hagrid is someone I'd love to meet. 

http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/1999/0999-
familyeducation-abel.htm

I'm not a huge Snape fan and this quote has probably been analyzed 
to death. But the comment caught my eye and I wanted to hear other 
opinions.

This seems like a *very* strong negative characterization to me. It 
also doesn't seem particulary consistent with the canon we have so 
far. Snape is presented as complex, bitter, angry, etc. But I've 
never seen his behavior as "deeply horrible" in the way of, say, 
LV's behavior.

Since we only know what JKR has given us so far, but she carries 
with her the full knowledge of each character's past and future 
actions, I tend to think of these interview comments as either 
subtle slip-ups or JKR subtly manipulating the way we see a 
character (for the future *Bang* value!).

So after she makes that comment in 1999, we're presented with a 
little backstory on Snape in OOTP that makes him more sympathetic, 
IMO. Are we being lulled into a false sense of security with that 
backstory?!? With all the references to Dumbledore's trust? OTOH, 
maybe in 1999 JKR realized her audience didn't read Snape the same 
way as she intended, so that comment was made to reinforce 
his 'horrible' behavior and thus make his redemption more surprising 
in the end.

Jen, who always assumed Snape would be redeemed until now...






From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Sun Mar 28 18:13:57 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 28 Mar 2004 20:13:57 +0200
Subject: Luna's importance to the series
Message-ID: <20040328181357.25AF21FCD22@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 94287

Seren:
> Now, traditionally, we know that Gryffindor is aligned with
> Hufflepuff; conversely, this means Ravenclaw is tradionally
> aligned with Slytherin. 

Would you be so kind to direct me the thread which discusses this issue at detail? Or to the canon evidence? Because I'm a bit at loss here.

Cheers, Viridis
________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!



From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 28 18:17:21 2004
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 18:17:21 -0000
Subject: Snape, the "Deeply Horrible Person"
In-Reply-To: <c473rt+5luh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c474rh+48av@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94288

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" <stevejjen at e...> 
wrote:
> I'm re-reading JKR interviews and ran across this one at Quick 
> Quotes:
> 
> Q: Who's your favorite character besides Harry Potter?
> 
> A: It's very hard to choose. It's fun to write about Snape because 
> he's a deeply horrible person. Hagrid is someone I'd love to meet. 
> 
> http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/1999/0999-
> familyeducation-abel.htm
> 
> I'm not a huge Snape fan and this quote has probably been analyzed 
> to death. But the comment caught my eye and I wanted to hear other 
> opinions.
> 
> This seems like a *very* strong negative characterization to me. It 
> also doesn't seem particulary consistent with the canon we have so 
> far. Snape is presented as complex, bitter, angry, etc. But I've 
> never seen his behavior as "deeply horrible" in the way of, say, 
> LV's behavior.
> 
> Since we only know what JKR has given us so far, but she carries 
> with her the full knowledge of each character's past and future 
> actions, I tend to think of these interview comments as either 
> subtle slip-ups or JKR subtly manipulating the way we see a 
> character (for the future *Bang* value!).
> 
> So after she makes that comment in 1999, we're presented with a 
> little backstory on Snape in OOTP that makes him more sympathetic, 
> IMO. Are we being lulled into a false sense of security with that 
> backstory?!? With all the references to Dumbledore's trust? OTOH, 
> maybe in 1999 JKR realized her audience didn't read Snape the same 
> way as she intended, so that comment was made to reinforce 
> his 'horrible' behavior and thus make his redemption more 
surprising 
> in the end.
> 
> Jen, who always assumed Snape would be redeemed until now...


I remember reading on the list that JKR engages into clever double - 
bluff in regards to Snape. Unfortunately, I don't remember who said 
that, so I apologise in advance.
 
After GoF it was clear to us that Harry's suspicions about Snape 
working for Voldie do not have any basis anymore. So, when  at the 
end of OOP Harry says that he will never ever forgive Snape, will 
never trust him, etc. we don't really believe him anymore. (only in 
regards to snape working for Voldie. ;o)


So, when Harry and Co will suspect Snape of doing something really 
bad (I don't know betraying the Order member or Dumbledore himself), 
the readers will not care much about their suspicions and will be 
fooled again.

Now, this betrayal could turn out not to be a real betrayal at the 
end, but I believe that such scenario is possible.


Alla


Alla




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sun Mar 28 19:46:38 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 19:46:38 -0000
Subject: Snape's house
In-Reply-To: <c46trp+h14d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c47a2u+dhdi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94289

Alla wrote: 
> I said it before, I will say it again. I don't think it is far 
> fetched at all, although many people will disagree. I don't think 
> that "run with the gang of Slytherins" is enough to clearly place 
> Snape in Slyhterins.
>  
> What if Sorting Hat had the same trouble placing Snape it had with 
> Harry?
> 
> I would love "Snape in Gryffindor" to be one of the surprises JKR 
> shows us and Harry at the end. That would be funny.


Potioncat:
I think Snape was in Slytherin.  It's hard to imagine  how a younger 
Gryffindor could have hooked up with older Slytherins.  And if he 
had, it would seem that the wording would have been, " he was in 
Gryffindor, but he ran with a group of Slytherins..."

I will say this much, I've never understood Snape's jealousy of J. 
Potter's quidditch skills.  If they had been in the same house and 
competed for a place on the team, it might make more sense. 

Potioncat 




From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 28 20:03:46 2004
From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 20:03:46 -0000
Subject: Ron=DD?
In-Reply-To: <000301c414a0$d366f780$6401a8c0@helenw1>
Message-ID: <c47b32+f5g2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94290

> Griselda Marchbanks administered Dumbledore's Charms NEWT, not OWL. They
> don't take the NEWTs until the very, very end of seventh year. 
> 
> Something interesting about Marchbanks... When she arrives and is being
> shown around by Umbridge, the trio is hanging around listening. When
> Marchbanks is very pointedly looking for Dumbledore, expecting him to leap
> out of a cupboard, Ron is leaning over tying his shoelace where she can't
> see him. 
> 
> Helen

Hmmm. So we're to imagine that both Ron AND Prof. Marchbanks time travelled? Since Ron 
won't take his NEWTs for another two years???




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 28 20:25:04 2004
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 20:25:04 -0000
Subject: Snape's house
In-Reply-To: <c47a2u+dhdi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c47cb0+j480@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94291

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at m...> 
wrote:
> Alla wrote: 
> > I said it before, I will say it again. I don't think it is far 
> > fetched at all, although many people will disagree. I don't think 
> > that "run with the gang of Slytherins" is enough to clearly place 
> > Snape in Slyhterins.
> >  
> > What if Sorting Hat had the same trouble placing Snape it had 
with 
> > Harry?
> > 
> > I would love "Snape in Gryffindor" to be one of the surprises JKR 
> > shows us and Harry at the end. That would be funny.
> 
> 
> Potioncat:
> I think Snape was in Slytherin.  It's hard to imagine  how a 
younger 
> Gryffindor could have hooked up with older Slytherins.  And if he 
> had, it would seem that the wording would have been, " he was in 
> Gryffindor, but he ran with a group of Slytherins..."
> 
> I will say this much, I've never understood Snape's jealousy of J. 
> Potter's quidditch skills.  If they had been in the same house and 
> competed for a place on the team, it might make more sense. 
> 
> Potioncat


Jealosy of James' quidditch skills is a good point. personally I am 
suspicious for several reasons:

Why would Sirius be angry accusing the member of Slytherin house 
being Lucius' lapdog? ( well, slash fan in me screams jealousy, but I 
know that this reason is probably the wrong one for canon. :o))

I mean, yes, Sirius, Slytherins associate together, what is so 
strange about it? It will make much more sense, if Sirius thought 
that fellow Gryffindor started being disloyal to his own house. :o)
I read "run with the gang of Slytherins" in the same context.


I am also suspicious because of Prank. I think if Severus was a 
gryffindor, Sirius had more chances to lure him into Shack.


Alla




From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 28 20:35:55 2004
From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 20:35:55 -0000
Subject: Snape, the "Deeply Horrible Person"
In-Reply-To: <c474rh+48av@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c47cvb+qpq5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94292

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" 
<dumbledore11214 at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" <stevejjen at e...> 
> wrote:
> > I'm re-reading JKR interviews and ran across this one at Quick 
> > Quotes:
> > 
> > Q: Who's your favorite character besides Harry Potter?
> > 
> > A: It's very hard to choose. It's fun to write about Snape 
because 
> > he's a deeply horrible person. Hagrid is someone I'd love to 
meet. 

[snip]
 
> I remember reading on the list that JKR engages into clever 
double - 
> bluff in regards to Snape. Unfortunately, I don't remember who 
said 
> that, so I apologise in advance.

I think it's rather telling that she said "deeply horrible" (with 
which I agree) and *not* "deeply evil." When it comes to Snape, this 
little quote is like Sherlock Holmes and the dog that didn't bark.

-Joe in SoFla




From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 28 20:39:20 2004
From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 20:39:20 -0000
Subject: Snape, the "Deeply Horrible Person"
In-Reply-To: <c47cvb+qpq5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c47d5o+771d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94293

Sorry to follow up my own post (poor form, I know)...

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jmgarciaiii" 
<jmgarciaiii at y...> wrote:

> I think it's rather telling that she said "deeply horrible" (with 
> which I agree) and *not* "deeply evil." 

I should have stated "and *not* 'deeply evil' (with which I would 
disagree)." 

-Joe in SoFla




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 28 20:54:07 2004
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 20:54:07 -0000
Subject: Harry, Snape,Occlumency
In-Reply-To: <c46u1d+7bpc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c47e1f+4j9u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94294

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tipgardner" <tipgardner at n...>
wrote:
> "annemehr" wrote:
> > Yes, twice-a-week lessons for over three months, and very little
> > progress.  Harry's never failed like that before.  Even though he
> > did not practice nearly enough 
> 
> > So Occlumency lessons did indeed make Harry more vulnerable to the
> > scar connection.  Yet Snape never warned Harry of this effect, 
> > which added to Harry's confusion.  No wonder the kid had trouble 
> > learning! 
> > 
> > The more he practiced Occlumency (and he did manage to repel Snape
> > more than once during lessons), the more open he was to the scar
> > connection...

> 
> Tip replied:
> I feel ... something much more along the lines of Harry not really 
> wanting to stop the visions. ..., Harry is also somewhat drawn
> to hear the voices of his parents, something he had never previously
> heard. So his desires were clashing with what he knew he should or
> was supposed to be doing.
> 
> Tip


bboy_mn:

First, regardless of what any of the Snape defenders say, Snape did a
lousy job of teaching Harry. I don't think Snape did that with
willfull intent. I think the tension and animosity between him and
Harry is so great the neither of them was capable of making the
situation work.

Put yourself in a situation where someone, like an evil drill sargent,
is standing over you screaming at you to be calm and clear your mind.
That's just not going to work. I would think anyone, even those among
us with limited life experience, could have done a better job of
teaching Harry to clear his mind, especially to clear it of emotion
just before bedtime. 

Snape's approach is 'clear your mind you maggot!!!!', but as anyone
who has ever been angry or emotional knows, emotions don't turn on and
off like a light switch. You need to have some method, some technique
to facilitate the process. 

So, how about creative visualization? Harry pictures himself in a warm
spring meadow with butterflys and humming birds, eagles soaring over
head, the soft rush of the wind as it sways the tall grass, the sweet
fragrance of wild flowers fill the air, etc... etc.... 

Or how about deep breathing excersizes? Sit in a comfortable position
and take a deep cleansing breath and let it out slowly. Then breath
slowly concentrating on the air as it flow in and out of your
nostrils. With each exhale, let the tension and strife of daily life
flow out with it. etc... etc... etc...

How about if Snape, in the beginning, gives Harry time to prepare,
time to steel himself against the assault on his mind? In otherwords,
make it easy at first, so that Harry is successful, then gradually as
Harry's skill increases, make the assaults on his mind more difficult.

I think Harry actually learn Occlumency better than we think he did.
On the night Trelawney was sacked, which I just read last night, Harry
is able to resist immediately. While Snape does force thoughts from
Harry's minds, Harry is not lost in those thoughts, he maintains his
awareness of the world around him and of Snape, and is able to use the
 'Protego' shield charm to stop Snape. More than stopping Snape, he is
able to reverse the spell which then falls upon Snape, and Snape's
memories are revealed. That particular session is then interupted by a
commotion in the entrance hall; Trelawney being sacked. 

Also, as the school year progresses circumstances conspire against
Harry's efforts. It's already a high-stress year with O.W.L.s coming
up and homework overload. That is then compounded by Umbridges ever
more foul powerplays. Harry is infuriated by Snape's general attitude,
and the fact that Snape is offering no helpful technique at achieving
the goal he demands. As Tip pointed out, Harry is consumed by
curiousity about what is behind that door in the Department of
Mysteries, and who wouldn't be. He has lost Quidditch which was one of
his best methods for coping with stress. He is worried about Sirius.
He is worried about Voldemort. He is worried about Cho. He is worried
about Ron. So, while he should be worrying less, circumstances are
forcing him, as it would with any normal person, to worry more.

Given all this, is it really that hard to believe that simply having
Snape order him to clear his mind was not enough to get the job done?

Of course, the author needed things to follow this path, so that the
book could progress in the necessary direction. The author needs Harry
to fail at Occlumency because she needs him to see the vision
Voldemort projects onto him, and she needs him to end up at the
Department of Mysteries. The true measure of whether she, the author,
succeeded in her attempt to bring about pre-destine events is whether
the characters remained true to themselves.

I think she very much succeeded by this measure. Snape was as Snapey
as ever, in his finest Snape form, and Harry was very much true to
himself. Given the circumstance, I can very very much believe his
attitude, and where his attitude lead him. I think all of JKR's
character portrayals were spot on in this book. People are upset
because Harry was so angry and upset, but I ask, how could he be
otherwise under the circumstances? People were upset because Hermione
seemed a little too wise, but again, I thought she was spot on. The
book may have had some weaknesses, but character portrayal and
development were not one of them in my book.

But, that's just one man's opinion.

bboy_mn




 




From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 28 21:19:24 2004
From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 21:19:24 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c46p91+gqab@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c47fgs+64sc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94295

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> 
wrote:

> Okay. It seems to me that you've fallen for one of JKR's clever 
> bits of misdirection (haven't we all?) The lesson "imagine that 
> bully in his underwear" is  plainly and powerfully conveyed *to 
> the reader.* Unless you're paying very careful attention to that 
> one line that says Neville's problems with Snape are worse than 
> ever, you won't see that Harry and Neville didn't get it.

But, unless I am gravely mistaken, I read that scene as only Lupin 
helping Neville deal with a boggart.
 
> Lupin's lesson goes right past their obtuse thirteen year old 
> minds, and Lupin doesn't appear to notice or care That's why I 
> have a hard time thinking he did it for their benefit. Canon shows 
> them both just as intimidated by Snape as they ever were. 

But to my mind, that wasn't Lupin's desire. Dealing with boggarts 
was the purpose of that exercise, not helping Harry/Neville cope 
with Snape.
 
> As for how Lupin could have handled it,  the text  suggests a 
> multiplicity of ways.  Neville himself expects that he'll be asked 
to 
> imagine something else he's afraid of:  "I don't want the boggart 
> to turn into her either."  We saw that happen in OOP, where 
> Molly's boggart took multiple shapes.

Right, but I understood that to mean that the boggart would assume 
what one feared most and if hit with a *weak* "riddikulus" then 
would find something else, only slightly (but slightly nonetheless) 
less fearsome. Neville fears Snape, and he fears his Gran just a 
teeny bit less.
  
> Couldn't Lupin have said, "Hmmm...sounds like you've had 
> enough trouble with Professor Snape for one day " and helped 
> him think of something else?

I would think not, because you can't help someone reorder their 
fears.

> Neville's highly suggestible as 
> everyone knows, look at the way Prof. Trelawney psyched him 
> into breaking that cup. 

But that is not changing deeply personal thoughts.

> Lupin could also have passed over Neville as he did with 
> Hermione, or arranged a private lesson as he did with Harry, or 
> he could have arranged a less public confrontation as he did on 
> the DADA final. But I'm afraid all he cared about was 
ingratiating  
> himself with the Gryffindors and scoring a few points off Snape.

I disagree. Here is what the relevant (to me) snippet reads:

<<"Right, Neville," said Professor Lupin. "First things first: what 
would you say is the thing that frightens you most in the world?"

Neville's lips moved, but no noise came out.

"Didn't catch that, Neville, sorry," said Professor Lupin cheerfully.

Neville looked around rather wildly, as though begging someone to 
help him, then said, in barely more than a whisper, "Professor 
Snape."

Nearly everyone laughed. Even Neville grinned apologetically. 
Professor Lupin, however, looked THOUGHTFUL.>> (emphasis mine)

I don't know what good it would have done for Lupin to have 
said "Are you sure Neville? Maybe a zombie would be more 
frightening?"

I cannot find any evidence in the canon that suggests that Lupin's 
boggart exercise and, in specific, helping Neville deal with said 
boggart (remember, Lupin was allowing Snape to witness the exercise, 
and it was Snape who left, with a parting shot at Neville) should be 
taken at anything other than face value.

-Joe in SoFla




From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 28 21:22:39 2004
From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 21:22:39 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c46u90+lt9a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c47fmv+q2m7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94296

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" 
<dumbledore11214 at y...> wrote:

> I am sure humiliating Snape came as extra bonus to Lupin, but I 
still 
> think that he had Neville's needs in mind when he taught him how 
to 
> deal with Boggart!Snape.

That'd be the way I see the situation.

-Joe in SoFla




From psychobirdgirl at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 28 21:28:15 2004
From: psychobirdgirl at yahoo.com (psychobirdgirl)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 21:28:15 -0000
Subject: Ron=DD?
In-Reply-To: <c47b32+f5g2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c47g1f+afo9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94297

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "antoshachekhonte" 
<antoshachekhonte at y...> wrote:
> Hmmm. So we're to imagine that both Ron AND Prof. Marchbanks time 
travelled? Since Ron 
> won't take his NEWTs for another two years???

No really the only supposition of this theory is that Ron has to go 
back before he would take his NEWTS in the present.

psychobirdgirl




From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net  Sun Mar 28 21:45:40 2004
From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 15:45:40 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry, Snape,Occlumency
References: <c47e1f+4j9u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000601c4150e$0403cd60$05030f04@dslverizon.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 94298

But, that's just one man's opinion.

bboy_mn


Only one comment here, because for civilians--and most especially those
trying for the utopian pacifistic life that we would all love to lead (well,
most of us, inclduing me), but realistcially can not achieve due to the VAST
variety of human nature, Bboy's analysis is 'true'. Most people get treated
this way and it pretty much screws them up. There's a certain mindset and
inner strength you need to have in order for the technique to be of value to
you if you are the recipieint of such actions, or to be able to blow it off
without it ever really affecting you. Everyone else just 'falls apart' under
it in one way or the other.

However, for Military trained people (and those kids raised in a military
school, military families, or participating in ROTC), the ability to remain
calm and rational no matter *what* Mr Asshole Seargant is screaming (or
nasty task he has set for you, including traching your project at a moment's
notice and telling you to "Start over again, asshole")  at you is one of the
primary foci of training. Why? Because later, when you're stuck in a fox
hole with bombs going off right over your head, a bleeding gut wound, and
the best buddy you knew since high school laying right next to you with his
guts hanging out, you're still going to have to be able to function and
*think* in order to survive where you're at. Emotional reaction won't cut
it. Neither will a passive attitude. And without certain training, most
people can NOT function effectively in a violent situation like that. They
panic, they make emotional decisions, and nine times out of ten, it kills
them, and/or the people around them.

Mind you, I'm not defending *anyone* here (Personally, I'm glad I didn't
join the militray as I intended to--I would have loathed every moment, I
suspect, and likely washed out too, on top of everything else), but I am
pointing out a real teaching technique that is used in real life, for real
people, who are about to go into real situations where the Zen Buddist, live
and let live, No need To Be Pissy and Stressed Out way of dealing Will Not
Work. It will, in fact, get you killed. And as long as there are people who
are willing to kill you, blow up your buildings, commit geneocide on you and
yours, commit terrorist acts, and so forth, it is a necassary mind set, even
if it is not for everyone.

It is ALSO exactly the treatment Snape gives to his students (Having a
former Navy Lifemate and several family members and former BF's in the
military has proven this to be a true statement, according to what they have
told me about thier own basic training courses, and having compared it to
Snape's techniques. Keep in mind, most of them were OUT of the military by
mid to late 80's so if there's younger military on the baord, they may
disagree, since due to public outcry, those techniques may have changed.).

To put it into a little bit of cannon *speculation*, this is why, I suspect,
some of Snape's actions (horrid as they are by even Rowling's standards),
are permitted and maybe even encouraged. The WW is at WAR. War means that
the peaceful, kind of way of dealing with things is a luxury, and not,
unfortunately, a right (Unless you would like to 'rightfully' loose your
mind under pressure and then die as a result). Sad but true. Like in RL wars
of the past, the WW is under the unslaught of a sadistic, amoral, evil
bastard that, if not stopped, will indeed visit a very bloody Holocast on
the wizards, witches, muggles and other creatures of Rowling's world.

You can believe Snape is truly abusive or not, a horrid teacher or not, but
he is still delivering necessary lessons for a generation who is not living
in utopic peace...and is in fact at the moment, hurtling to it's exact
opposite--Hell on Earth--thanks to Voldemort. And although what Snape does
can be argued as 'damaging' to the kids in present day pyschology terms, it
will still help them when up against Voldemort--because they will *already*
know how to keep thinking, no matter what's getting thrown at them, thanks
to having to deal with Snape.

No one likes thier drill Sergeant...not until months or years later when
they are in thier unit, trapped in a do or die situation, and those words
"Think, Soldier!" come flashing through thier mind at the crucial moment,
and saves them.

Just some food for thought

Anne

**Going back to lurking since really, this discussion has degenerated into
personal viewpoints which will ALWAYS be at odds with each other...^^;**
HUGS to all...





From ekrbdg at msn.com  Sun Mar 28 21:22:50 2004
From: ekrbdg at msn.com (Kimberly)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 16:22:50 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Life-saving bonds
References: <c45tu4+4fve@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <05ca01c4150a$d434c1a0$75d6f943@hppav>

No: HPFGUIDX 94299



>Hmm...

>Amanar (why can't Snape be a vamp? WHY? Oh cruel world!)

*Kimberly's comment*
I'm not arguing the point that Snape is or isn't a vampire...however, while re-reading GoF this week, this quote jumped out at me.

GoF, Amer. Ed., pg. 566
Harry and Ron are discussing Snape and what happened to Mr. Crouch....

"Maybe-hang on-how fast d'you reckon he could've gotten down to the forest ?   D'you reckon he could've beat you and Dumbledore there?"   

"Not unless he can turn himself into a bat or something," said Harry.

Kimberly



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From ekrbdg at msn.com  Sun Mar 28 21:35:09 2004
From: ekrbdg at msn.com (Kimberly)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 16:35:09 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] was Lupin'sSnape's resentment/ nowSnape and Prophesy
References: <c46g8m+ovoe@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <05eb01c4150c$8ccc3300$75d6f943@hppav>

No: HPFGUIDX 94300

Potioncat:
>I don't believe for a moment this hasn't come up before, but I'll 
>ask...Isn't it a coincidence that the two students we see Snape 
>really pick on are the two who seem be in the prophesy?


(Kimberly)
Good point.    From what I've seen, he picks on Hermione just as much though.    I'm sure it could very well be because she's such good friends with Harry or the fact that she's of Muggle descent.    






From jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Mar 28 21:45:40 2004
From: jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk (jlv230)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 21:45:40 -0000
Subject: Snape's house
In-Reply-To: <c47cb0+j480@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c47h24+r09j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94301

Alla:
> > What if Sorting Hat had the same trouble placing Snape it had
with Harry?

JLV:
It may have done.  He did have many qualities similar to the death 
eaters, but also ended up turning spy against them (at great personal 
risk).  Perhaps the hat spotted his potential bravery (amongst other 
things).  You've got to be incredibly brave (or stupid) to attempt to 
fool Voldemort, after all.

Potioncat:
> I think Snape was in Slytherin. It's hard to imagine how a younger
> Gryffindor could have hooked up with older Slytherins. And if he
> had, it would seem that the wording would have been, " he was in
> Gryffindor, but he ran with a group of Slytherins..."

JLV:
"Snape's always been fascinated by the Dark Arts, he was famous for 
it at school. Slimy, oily, greasy-haired kid, he was," Sirius added, 
and Harry and Ron grinned at each other. "Snape knew more curses when 
he arrived at school than half the kids in seventh year, and he was 
part of a gang of Slytherins who nearly all turned out to be Death 
Eaters." GoF

I know the comparison has been made before, but Luna Lovegood is 
bullied by the people in her house  ? they steal her belongings 
(although thankfully she doesn't let it bother her too much) like it 
would have been for Snape if he were the fifth Gryffindor boy.  Luna 
now feels included as part of a gang of Gryffindors who *don't* 
constantly tease her, like Snape may feel with his gang of 
Slytherins.  If Snape was indeed famous for his dabblings in the dark 
arts, the Slytherins may even have sought him out.

Potioncat:
> I will say this much, I've never understood Snape's jealousy of J.
> Potter's quidditch skills. If they had been in the same house and
> competed for a place on the team, it might make more sense.

JLV:
I know I am arguing against myself here, but it seems that Snape 
wasn't very good at Quidditch anyway so his hopes of getting on the 
team cannot have been great, if we take Snape's memories to be any 
guide:
"suddenly Harry's mind was teeming with memories that were not his: a 
hook-nosed man was shouting at a cowering woman, while a small dark-
haired boy cried in a corner
 a greasy-haired teenager sat alone in a 
dark bedroom, pointing his wand at the ceiling, shooting down flies
 
a girl was laughing as a scrawny boy tried to mount a bucking 
broomstick" OotP
This passage always makes me feel very sorry for Snape though.  I 
wonder why JKR chose these particular scenes?  It does show us that 
Snape was very lonely, however, and would perhaps jump at the chance 
to join an exclusive gang of Slytherins who hated the rest of the 
world as much as he did.

Alla:
>I mean, yes, Sirius, Slytherins associate together, what is so
>strange about it? It will make much more sense, if Sirius thought
>that fellow Gryffindor started being disloyal to his own house. :o)

JLV:
Good point!

Alla:
>I am also suspicious because of Prank. I think if Severus was a
>gryffindor, Sirius had more chances to lure him into Shack.

JLV:
Totally. Also, if Snape was in a situation where the four people with 
whom he had to share a dorm and lessons all disliked him, I can see 
that he would be very paranoid/curious as to what they were up to all 
the time. He would notice more than anyone else that Lupin 
periodically disappeared and sometimes the desire to find out a 
secret can turn into an obsession. (I may be guilty of that myself, 
oh JKR, what are you hiding from me?!)

Just some more ramblings,
JLV





From ellendvlmaas at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 28 20:24:12 2004
From: ellendvlmaas at yahoo.com (ellendvlmaas)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 20:24:12 -0000
Subject: Hermione flinching at LV's name
Message-ID: <c47c9c+6ltn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94302

Hi everyone,

Being rather new, I'm not sure if this has been discussed before, and 
I didn't come up with anything in the Archive search. If someone 
knows of a previous thread, I'd love to be pointed to it.

I recently reread SS and am currently rereading OotP (this group has 
inspired me to pull them out again!). I have been wondering, if 
Hermione was muggle born and raised, then why does she flinch at 
Voldemort's name like those raised in the WW? 

At first I thought it might just be an oversight on JKR's part -- she 
does confess to making mistakes, after all -- but she specifically 
pointed out in SS that Dean Thomas, also muggle-born, does NOT flinch 
at Voldemort's name, having had no exposure to the WW before he got 
his letter.

So what's up with Hermione? Either:

1) It's still a mistake on JKR's part, or

2) Hermione has had exposure to the WW before she got her letter.

I don't remember anything really being mentioned about Hermione's 
past in the books. Maybe she has a wizard or witch in her family, 
like a cousin or uncle? I also wondered about her vast knowledge and 
sound, basic abilities she displayed on the train to Hogwarts their 
first year. How did she know so much and where did she learn 
the "reparo" charm that fixed Harry's glasses? 

I wouldn't put it past her to have taught herself. She's a fast 
learner, and I can see her burying her nose in the books the instant 
she brought them home. I can see her experimenting with her wand and 
trying out the magic in "Standard Book of Spells, Grade One". That's 
very believable to me. 

But, that still doesn't explain her knee-jerk reaction to 
hearing "Voldemort".

Has anyone else asked this question? Has JKR said anything about it 
in her chats or interviews?

Ellen





From djrfdh at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 28 17:50:08 2004
From: djrfdh at yahoo.com (djrfdh)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 17:50:08 -0000
Subject: Life-saving bonds
In-Reply-To: <c46gth+cc6r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4738g+sac1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94303

 I believe that Peter WILL repay the debt to Harry....think about 
it...he was one of the four and wanted to belong so badly....also, he 
was the "keeper" of James and Lily's whereabouts and he told 
Voldemort...even MORE of a reason to repay Harry for sparing his life!
This will be especially true if Voldemort's return is again thwarted 
by Harry....will Peter stand with the Dark Lord....I doubt it!

"djrfdh"





From siskiou at msn.com  Mon Mar 29 00:29:48 2004
From: siskiou at msn.com (Susanne)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 16:29:48 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione flinching at LV's name
In-Reply-To: <c47c9c+6ltn@eGroups.com>
References: <c47c9c+6ltn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <1205313953.20040328162948@msn.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94304



Hi,

Sunday, March 28, 2004, 12:24:12 PM, ellendvlmaas wrote:

> I don't remember anything really being mentioned about Hermione's
> past in the books. Maybe she has a wizard or witch in her family,
> like a cousin or uncle? I also wondered about her vast knowledge and
> sound, basic abilities she displayed on the train to Hogwarts their
> first year. How did she know so much and where did she learn
> the "reparo" charm that fixed Harry's glasses? 

Well, she didn't fix Harry's glasses in the books.
That only happens in the movies.

Here is what Hermione has to say about herself and her
family in book 1:
********************
"Are you sure that's a real spell?" said the girl. "Well,
it's not very good, is it? I've tried a few simple spells just
for practice and it's all worked for me. Nobody in my family's
magic at all, it was ever such a surprise when I got my letter,
but I was ever so pleased, of course, I mean, it's the very best
school of witchcraft there is, I've heard -- I've learned all our
course books by heart, of course, I just hope it will be enough --
I'm Hermione Granger, by the way, who are you.
*******************

So, according to Hermione, nobody in her family is magically
inclined at all, and it was a big surprise, when she
received her letter.

I think, Hermione is blessed with a thirst for knowledge,
and a photographic memory, so she would have learned and
retained a lot just by reading through all her course books.

I've always wondered why Hermione was scared of using LV's
name at all, since she didn't grow up with everyone around
her avoiding the name, and acting scared.

And I find her way of calling Ron on it, after just having
started using LV's name herself, less than likable.
It's almost like making yourself sound braver by calling
attention to somebody else's fear.

-- 
Best regards,
 Susanne                           mailto:siskiou at msn.com






From meriaugust at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 00:32:08 2004
From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 00:32:08 -0000
Subject: Hermione flinching at LV's name
In-Reply-To: <c47c9c+6ltn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c47qq8+9nf5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94305

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ellendvlmaas" 
<ellendvlmaas at y...> wrote:
> Hi everyone,
> 
> Being rather new, I'm not sure if this has been discussed before, 
and 
> I didn't come up with anything in the Archive search. If someone 
> knows of a previous thread, I'd love to be pointed to it.
> 
> I recently reread SS and am currently rereading OotP (this group 
has 
> inspired me to pull them out again!). I have been wondering, if 
> Hermione was muggle born and raised, then why does she flinch at 
> Voldemort's name like those raised in the WW? 
> 
> At first I thought it might just be an oversight on JKR's part -- 
she 
> does confess to making mistakes, after all -- but she specifically 
> pointed out in SS that Dean Thomas, also muggle-born, does NOT 
flinch 
> at Voldemort's name, having had no exposure to the WW before he 
got 
> his letter.
> 
> So what's up with Hermione? Either:
> 
> 1) It's still a mistake on JKR's part, or
> 
> 2) Hermione has had exposure to the WW before she got her letter.

minor snip

> I wouldn't put it past her to have taught herself. She's a fast 
> learner, and I can see her burying her nose in the books the 
instant 
> she brought them home. I can see her experimenting with her wand 
and 
> trying out the magic in "Standard Book of Spells, Grade One". 
That's 
> very believable to me. 
> 
> But, that still doesn't explain her knee-jerk reaction to 
> hearing "Voldemort".

I think that you've hit the nail on the head just above. Hermione 
tends to memorize her school books, and is the kind of person who 
would spend hours reading up on any particular subject just to make 
sure she understands it. I imagine that when she got her Hogwarts 
letter and picked up her books at Flourish and Blotts that she also 
purchased a few for some "light" background reading. (I believe she 
mentioned several history books that Harry's name is in on the first 
Hogwarts Express jouney.) The flinching is probably just a learned 
behavior, adopted from her dorm mates and from countless readings 
about the horrors inflicted by LV. Although, that said, her exposure 
to the WW is by no means as complete as the flinching implies: she 
has no idea what Mudblood means in CoS when Malfoy refers to her 
using that term. But I always figured that she memorized so many 
books that she just picked up the habit to blend in a bit more at 
school. And Hermione's parents I think are very firmly rooted in the 
mundane, being dentists and all. Barely a sickles worth of thought, 
but there we are.  
Meri - who wonders what on earth Hermione tells her mother and 
father about what happens while she's away at school (and a little 
bit about what a wedding party consisting of the Muggle Grangers and 
the wizarding Weasleys would look like ;-) )




From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 00:42:20 2004
From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 00:42:20 -0000
Subject: Ron=DD?
In-Reply-To: <c47g1f+afo9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c47rdc+pfek@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94306

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "psychobirdgirl" <psychobirdgirl at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "antoshachekhonte" 
> <antoshachekhonte at y...> wrote:
> > Hmmm. So we're to imagine that both Ron AND Prof. Marchbanks time 
> travelled? Since Ron 
> > won't take his NEWTs for another two years???
> 
> No really the only supposition of this theory is that Ron has to go 
> back before he would take his NEWTS in the present.
> 
> psychobirdgirl

But then, why would Prof. Marchbanks remember it two years before it happened? Sorry 
for being obtuse...

Antosha




From ekrbdg at msn.com  Mon Mar 29 00:10:25 2004
From: ekrbdg at msn.com (Kimberly)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 19:10:25 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione flinching at LV's name
References: <c47c9c+6ltn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <069301c41522$3d2f5500$75d6f943@hppav>

No: HPFGUIDX 94307

(Ellen's comments)
>I recently reread SS and am currently rereading OotP (this group has 
>inspired me to pull them out again!). I have been wondering, if 
>Hermione was muggle born and raised, then why does she flinch at 
>Voldemort's name like those raised in the WW? 

>At first I thought it might just be an oversight on JKR's part -- she 
>does confess to making mistakes, after all -- but she specifically 
>pointed out in SS that Dean Thomas, also muggle-born, does NOT flinch 
>at Voldemort's name, having had no exposure to the WW before he got 
>his letter.

>So what's up with Hermione? Either:

>1) It's still a mistake on JKR's part, or

>2) Hermione has had exposure to the WW before she got her letter.

>I don't remember anything really being mentioned about Hermione's 
>past in the books. Maybe she has a wizard or witch in her family, 
>like a cousin or uncle? I also wondered about her vast knowledge and 
>sound, basic abilities she displayed on the train to Hogwarts their 
>first year. How did she know so much and where did she learn 
>the "reparo" charm that fixed Harry's glasses? >

>I wouldn't put it past her to have taught herself. She's a fast 
>learner, and I can see her burying her nose in the books the instant 
>she brought them home. I can see her experimenting with her wand and 
>trying out the magic in "Standard Book of Spells, Grade One". That's 
>very believable to me. 

>But, that still doesn't explain her knee-jerk reaction to 
>hearing "Voldemort".
 
(Kimberly's comments)
I'm sure that Hermione learned as much as she could from books as soon as she got her letter.     I'll be willing to bet that she even practiced the spells that she could.     

As for her knee-jerk reaction, I'd have to read the surrounding text to comment specifically.     However, I can see someone having what I call a second hand reaction.    Example, you have a friend that is loud, flamboyant, draws attention to you two whenever you're out somewhere.    It gets to the point that you expect it, comment on it, and dread it to the point that you react when she suggests you go somewhere.    Let's say there's someone else you know that doesn't have any experience with this friend personally but has heard you speak of her and knows of your experience with her.     When you mention to the third friend that she join you and friend two, she reacts according to what she's heard, but not according to having experienced it.     That is my take on why Hermione reacts to Voldemort's name in certain circumstances.    Those in the WW have a first-hand reaction while Hermione's is a second-hand reaction.  

 It seems to me though that there are indeed times that she does not react to his name.     Again, I'd have to see the exact canon though to comment specifically.

Kimberly, who was probably of no help but is posting just the same.    


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From mpjdekker at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 29 01:05:10 2004
From: mpjdekker at hotmail.com (mightymaus75)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 01:05:10 -0000
Subject: Voldemort *inside* Harry's head (mind)? (Was: Re: Wanting or presenting: Was
In-Reply-To: <c3gln7+2fu2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c47so6+m24c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94308

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Erin" <erinellii at y...> wrote:
>
> Hear hear!  Far be it from me to discourage anyone from theorizing, 
> but refering to one's inner thoughts as a "voice" is a fairly
> common literary device.  At least, I've seen it in plenty of other
> books *I've* read.  Sometimes a spade is just a spade.  
> 
> Erin

The voices in Harry's head may very well turn out to be just his 
inner thoughts. Then again, have you noticed how often JKR warns us 
about hearing voices?:

"'No,' said Ron, without hesitation. 'Hearing voices no one else can
hear isn't a good sign, even in the wizarding world.'" - CoS

"Uncle Vernon and Aunt Petunia exchanged looks of utter horror. If 
their least favourite thing in the world was magic ? closely followed 
by neighbours who cheated more than they did on the hosepipe ban ? 
people who heard voices were definitely in the bottom ten." - OotP

"'First sign of madness, talking to your own head,' said a sly voice 
from the empty picture on the wall." - OotP

And interestingly the number of instances in which Harry hears a 
voice inside his head seems to be increasing in OotP. Perhaps the 
voices in Harry's head aren't as innocent as they appear to be.

-Maus


Come to the KITTENS & RAINBOWS theory website for more evidence 
supporting the presence of a part of Voldemort's mind inside Harry: 
http://home.hccnet.nl/p.s.dekker/HPtheory.html





From vmonte at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 01:23:41 2004
From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 01:23:41 -0000
Subject: From JK Rowling World Book Day Chat - 3/4/04
Message-ID: <c47tqt+csm7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94309

>From JK Rowling World Book Day Chat
3/4/2004

Ernie: I wonder if you can let us know what form will Professor 
Snape's Boggart and Patronus take? I am very curious. 

JK Rowling: Well, I'm not going to tell you Ernie, but that's because 
it would give so much away. 

vmonte writes:
Just curious to see what other fans think of the above quote.
What form do you think Snape's Boggart would take? 
What would his Patronus look like?  

and below...

Josh from Cottenham Village College: Right at the beginning, when 
Voldermort tried to kill Harry, how did Voldermort and Harry both 
survive? 
JK Rowling: That is the crucial and central question and if I 
answered it there would be hardly any point writing books six and 
seven... so I won't!

vmonte:
Is anyone starting to think that someone else was at Godric's Hollow 
besides the Potters and Voldemort? 

vmonte




From mpjdekker at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 29 01:22:31 2004
From: mpjdekker at hotmail.com (mightymaus75)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 01:22:31 -0000
Subject: Subliminal influences *inside* Harry's head
Message-ID: <c47ton+hulh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94310

I know we're all saddened by Sirius' tragic death in OotP. But it 
seems that was not the first time an attempt on his life was made. 
This is a follow-up post the recent 'Voldemort *inside* Harry's head 
(mind)?' thread. Besides talking directly to Harry, the part of 
Voldemort inside Harry also seems to have been trying to influence 
Harry subconsciously. 

In PoA, when Harry is lying on his bed after finding out that it was 
Sirius who was responsible for his parents deaths, he sees before him 
how Sirius must have betrayed his parents: "A hatred such as he had 
never known before was coursing through Harry like poison. He could 
see Black laughing at him through the darkness, as though somebody 
had pasted the picture from the album over his eyes. He watched, as 
though somebody was playing him a piece of film, Sirius Black 
blasting Peter Pettigrew (who resembled Neville Longbottom) into a 
thousand pieces. He could hear (though he had no idea what Black's 
voice might sound like) a low, excited mutter. 'It has happened, my 
Lord... the Potters have made me their Secret-Keeper...' And then 
came another voice, laughing shrilly, the same laugh that Harry heard 
inside his head whenever the Dementors drew near..." Twice the images 
inside Harry's head are described as though someone was deliberately 
showing him these things. And then Harry can also hear Sirius' voice, 
even though he has never heard Sirius speak before. Was the part of 
Voldemort inside Harry perhaps putting on a little show for Harry, 
trying to get him to avenge his parents deaths?

This wouldn't be so suspicious if later in the book Harry wouldn't 
have heard a voice in his head telling him to kill Sirius. When Harry 
has his wand pointed at Sirius in the Shrieking Shack he hears a 
voice inside his head: "Black made a startled movement that almost 
dislodged Crookshanks; Harry gripped his wand convulsively - Do it 
now! said a voice in his head - but the footsteps were thundering up 
the stairs and Harry still hadn't done it." Was Harry perhaps the 
unwitting pawn in a plot to kill Sirius, a plot orchestrated by the 
part of Voldemort inside of him? 

Voldemort is repeatedly described as having a great gift for 
spreading discord and enmity. If there is a part of Voldemort's mind 
inside Harry subconsciously influencing him, that certainly doesn't 
bode well for Harry's future.

-Maus


Come to the KITTENS & RAINBOWS theory website for more evidence 
supporting the presence of a part of Voldemort's mind inside Harry: 
http://home.hccnet.nl/p.s.dekker/HPtheory.html





From helen at odegard.com  Mon Mar 29 01:22:00 2004
From: helen at odegard.com (Helen R. Granberry)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 17:22:00 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] For the DD=Ron fans.  Does Ron become Flamel's apprentice?
In-Reply-To: <c46nss+c0ki@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000001c4152c$3d641510$6401a8c0@helenw1>

No: HPFGUIDX 94311


vmonte here:

For the DD=Ron fans:

Ron is going to be young when he goes back in time so it would make
sense that he will probably stay with a family (or with someone).

Do you think that Ron goes back in time and becomes Flamel's
apprentice? The Flamel family would then be more like a second
family to Ron.

I'm sure that Flamel would be able to teach Ron quite a lot!

It would also make sense as to why Dumbledore would later on keep the
SS/PS at the school. He is trying to protect and save his surrogate
parents?!

(Perhaps something he couldn't do for his real parents!)

vmonte


Helen/LizardLaugh responds:

I am quite sure he does just that. In fact, I would bet there is some
connection to Harry as well as Dumbledore's own long life. Going by the
Chocolate Frog cards, very few wizards live past about 80 or so (normal
human lifespan). The ones who do have something to do with alchemy or
goblins.




From helen at odegard.com  Mon Mar 29 01:26:24 2004
From: helen at odegard.com (Helen R. Granberry)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 17:26:24 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron=DD?
In-Reply-To: <c47rdc+pfek@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000101c4152c$d9d3d7a0$6401a8c0@helenw1>

No: HPFGUIDX 94312



But then, why would Prof. Marchbanks remember it two years before it
happened? Sorry 
for being obtuse...

Antosha


Ron goes back in time. He takes his NEWTS in the PAST, when Professor
Marchbanks was young. 

For better understanding, check the timeline here:

http://www.livejournal.com/community/unplottables/5231.html 

And... check out http://www.knight2king.net :)




From melclaros at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 01:33:01 2004
From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 01:33:01 -0000
Subject: From JK Rowling World Book Day Chat - 3/4/04
In-Reply-To: <c47tqt+csm7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c47ucd+4jcd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94313

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" <vmonte at y...> wrote:
> vmonte:
> Is anyone starting to think that someone else was at Godric's 
Hollow 
> besides the Potters and Voldemort? 


I've thought it...ok, I feel confident enough to say *known it* all 
along. (Well if the vamp camp can do it on no evidence then I can do 
it on quite a lot.) 
I've posted my theory on this previously, it must be in the archives 
somewhere.

Mel




From MadameSSnape at aol.com  Mon Mar 29 01:52:06 2004
From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 20:52:06 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Question: Has Snape ever picked on Ron in class?
Message-ID: <1d0.1d119809.2d98db46@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94314

In a message dated 3/28/2004 11:30:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
jhnbwmn at hotmail.com writes:

We do have canon evidence that Snape wants the DADA job. It is in 
OOTP, where Umbridge inspects Snapes class. Umbridge asks Snape if 
it is true that he has applied for the DADA job every year since 
Quirrel, and that Snape applied for the DADA job the first year he 
was at Hogwarts. Snape replies that it is indeed true. Snape does 
want the DADA job
======================
Sherrie here:

Actually, all we have canon for is that Snape *applies for* the DADA job 
every year - we have no canon to indicate *why*.  Perhaps you're right, and he 
does really want it.  Or perhaps it's part of some plan between him and 
Dumbledore.  Or maybe he does it just to get on Minerva's nerves...we won't know for 
certain, IMHO, until we finally get Snape's backstory.

My two Knuts - as ever, YMMV.

Sherrie
"Unless history lives in our present, it has no future." 
PRESERVE OUR CIVIL WAR BATTLEFIELDS!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From catlady at wicca.net  Mon Mar 29 01:52:59 2004
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 01:52:59 -0000
Subject: Portkey/Pets/FewWords/Veil/Exams/Revenge/WeirdSis/Baby/ShotSB?/Crookshnk/More
Message-ID: <c47vhs+94q0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94315

Amy Oceangirl wrote in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/92866 :

<< The question I do have is about the portkey. We see in GoF that
when people arrive at the Quidditch World Cup that the portkeys are
tossed aside and then used again for the return trip at the end, but
have to be re-charmed. Who then was the person that made the portkey
two way. Was this done before, or during the Graveyard? Was Snape may
be actually at the Graveyard, but just not mentioned, and during the
whole wand duel snuck over to the portkey. This leaves things very
open. I'm very intrigued to hear what other people think. >> 

Many people including me believe that the Triwizard Tournament Portkey
had originally been charmed to transport the person who touched it
from the center of the maze to the judges' stand, but Crouch!Moody
inserted an intermediate stop at the Graveyard into its programming.
Therefore it didn't need to be Charmed again at the Graveyard. If
Hogwarts' magic prevents any Portkey not made by the Headmaster from
working on Hogwarts grounds (OoP shows that one made by the Headmaster
works), that would explain why LV's plot to capture Harry required a
whole year of conspiratorial high jinks piggybacked on the Triwizard
Tournament, rather than Crouch!Moody simply turning Harry's toothbrush
into a Portkey sometime in September. However, that would require
Crouch!Moody's Veritaserum statement that he turned the Cup into a
Portkey to mean only that he inserted an extra destination into a
pre-made Portkey.

Angie Garcia wrote in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/92867 :

<< I've read all 5 books in it's Spanish version, (I live in Mexico),
and now that I'm re-reading OoP, I realized about something. ?Does
Ginny Weasly have a pet? Because she's always taking care of
Crockshanks. ?Is it needed for every student to bring their own pet
to Hogwarts? >>

Harry has Hedwig, Ron has first Scabbers and then Pigwidgeon, Neville
has Trevor, but we never hear of Dean or Seamus having a pet. Hermione
doesn't have a pet first or second year, and Lavender left her bunny
at home where a fox could get at it. There is no sign of the Twins
having a pet, and Lee's tarantula was new for Harry's first year
(Lee's third). To me this means that students are not required to
bring any pet to Hogwarts. Nowhere in the books yet have they used
their pets in a class -- the pets being Transfigured into goblets was
invented for the movie.

I'm sure Ginny wants a cat -- CoS quote: "Ginny Weasley seemed very
disturbed by Mrs. Norris's fate. According to Ron, she was a great cat
lover." That she doesn't have a pet is probably supposed to represent
Weasley poverty; they can't afford pets (except as a reward for being
appointed Prefect, or a rat that wandered in on its own). That doesn't
make sense to me: cats are as readily available, and likely to wander
in on their own, as rats. It also doesn't make sense that people
supposedly so desperately poor somehow come up with the money for
lavish gifts to a new prefect -- I have seen no other sign that the
Wizarding World has credit cards.

Julie Howard wrote in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/92871 :

<< I tried searching the archives but coule not find anything on this.
It is from the first book, so something must have been posted about
it. On US hardback 123, Dumbledore's few words were 
"Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak! Thank you!"
Question 1: What in the world does it mean?
Question 2: Are they the same in the UK version? >>

There are theories that Nitwick, Blubber, Oddment, and Tweak are more
than a joke on the usual way speeches start with "Let me say a few
words". A theory that they are the words of some kind of protective
spell DD is casting on Harry. A theory that they are nicknames of DD
and his school-friends (nicknames like Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, and
Prongs). A theory that somehow these words are key to a puzzle that
Harry will have to solve in his final conflict with LV. Scrabble to
the death at fifteen paces?

Renee wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPfor
Grownups/message/92916 :

<< Hi, has anybody noticed that Harry has a fascination with the Room
with the Veil in the Dept of Mysteries and feels drawn to see behind
it? Only Ginny and Neville seem to share the fascination. Neville has
seen death but Ginny hasn't. >> 

We don't know if Ginny has seen a person die, but she was almost dead
herself when Harry rescued her in the Chamber of Secrets.

K Cawte wrote in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/93149 :

<< I never got the impression that failing the end of year exams at
Hogwarts would get you kept back or kicked out but rather that they
were there to show the students (and their parents) and their teachers
where the students were magically and where their strengths and
weaknesses lay. I suspect a 'failing' student would simply be given
extra coaching and such rather than being kept back. >>

There is canon suggesting that Hogwarts end of year exams matter. In
PS/SS, Hermione is depicted as saying: "What am I studying for? Are
you crazy? You realize we need to pass these exams to get into the
second year?" and later the narration says: "Harry had almost
forgotten that the exam results were still to come, but come they did.
To their great surprise, both he and Ron passed with good marks;
Hermione, of course, had the best grades of the first years. Even
Neville scraped through, his good Herbology mark making up for his
abysmal Potions one. They had hoped that Goyle, who was almost as
stupid as he was mean, might be thrown out, but he had passed, too. It
was a shame, but as Ron said, you couldn't have everything in life."

Or do you interpret Goyle "passing" as evidence that people being held
back for failing the exams is just a student myth?

Potioncat wrote in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/93507 :

<< [Draco] taunts Harry about wanting revenge. (He, of course, seems
to think Black was the one who betrayed them.) >>

What does Draco know or think happened? The conversation among the
adults at The Three Broomsticks indicates that witches and wizards who
were adults by Halloween 1981 'know' that Sirius Black and James
Potter were best friends but Sirius Black served LV and betrayed James
to his death and killed all those poor Muggles, but not about the
Fidelius Charm nor about Pettigrew's 'heroic death' unless they are
Hogwarts Professors or Fudge. Is that what Draco thinks, or did his
father tell him more? Hey, how much more did Lucius know? Only what
Fudge (and other Ministry contacts) told him, or did he know that
Sirius was not working for LV and did he know that Pettigrew was? 

It seems to me that Lucius was pretty close to LV, so he must have
known about Pettigrew if the DEs in Azkaban knew. Some people think he
even went along on the Godric's Hollow attack -- Harry's dream about
the turban telling him to transfer to Slytherin (already recently
quoted on list) includes "and there was Malfoy, laughing at him as he
struggled with it -then Malfoy turned into the hook-nosed teacher,
Snape, whose laugh became high and cold -- there was a burst of green
light and Harry woke, sweating and shaking." It has been suggested
that these dream elements come from Harry's memories of that night:
Lucius was there (Harry thinks Draco because they look alike), Snape
was there, LV and AK were there.

So does Draco think that Sirius Black is a stupid sucker or a
prodigal-son hero of the Dark Side?

Eric Oppen wrote in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/93866 :

<< I daresay that without Harry _having to go,_ Ron wouldn't have even
considered going to the Ball. >>

Surely some students who would never want to go to the ball to dance
or romance, and who didn't like wearing dress robes, nonetheless
wanted to go to the Ball just to see and hear The Weird Sisters live.
The narration said that they were a very popular band.

On a related note, Carolyn White in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/94119 quoted
Kirley McCormack saying:

<< We played at the school Christmas ball as a favour to him - we
don't usually do kid's discos, >>

I think there are barely 20,000 witches and wizards in the British
Isles. If they have an auditorium that can seat 1000 people, it would
take only 20 concerts for all of them to hear The Weird Sisters live.
I take this to mean that even a top wizarding band like The Weird
Sisters usually plays smaller venues and doesn't turn down any paying
gig.   

TigerPatronus wrote in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/93931 :

<< It seems to me that a reflexive, unreasoning hatred of an entire
species of creature is the sign of extreme immaturity and possibly an
evil nature. >>

Cockroaches? Tiger mosquitoes? Formosan termites? Fleas?

Inky/Julie wrote in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/93994 :

<< Sirius himself might also just not have considered raising a baby
on his own. Sirius is a batchlor, he's in the Order so he's presumable
in a high risk occupation (I know LV is presumed dead but lots of
mopping up to do), and he might not have a settled home. (snip) Even
if Sirius hadn't been on a tear after Peter or suspected of betrayal,
he might not have taken Harry to live with him until the boy was
older. >>

Lynette corrected her in 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/94017

<< Sirius DID want to take Harry, but Hagrid told him no, that
Professor Dumbledore had told him to bring Harry to him. That's when
Sirius gave/loaned him the motorbike. AFTER Hagrid says he is taking
Harry. >>

Here's the canon, from PoA: "How was I ter know he wasn' upset abou'
Lily an' James? It was You-Know-Who he cared abou'! An' then he says,
'Give Harry ter me, Hagrid, I'm his godfather, I'll look after him --'
Ha! But I'd had me orders from Dumbledore, an' I told Black no,
Dumbledore said Harry was ter go ter his aunt an' uncle's. Black
argued, but in the end he gave in. Told me ter take his motorbike ter
get Harry there. 'I won't need it anymore,' he says.

Siriusly Snapey Susan  wrote in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/94078 :

<< I desperately do NOT want Lupin to be ESE!Lupin, so I'm begging
someone else to take Inge's son's comment and develop a theory for
someone *besides* Lupin to have been the "shooter" so that I don't
have to lose faith in Lupin >> 

Listies have suggested two theories in which Good!Remus is the
shooter. I think it was Kneasy who suggested that Remus eliminated
Sirius because Sirius's recklessness was endangering Harry and the
Order. I think it was Talisman who suggested that Remus was following
DD's orders to make sure that Sirius didn't come out of Department of
Mysteries alive ... she had a theory that for the only person whom
Harry could ever remember loving like a parent to die in front of him
would trigger emotions in Harry (some combo of love, grief, and
willingness to die) which would be Harry's weapon against LV. 

She said, from the time the Prophecy was made, DD was arranging
everything for Harry to defeat LV. He meant for James and Lily to die
defending Harry to activate that mother-love charm. 

Then he did everything for Harry to love one parent-type and to kill
that parent-type -- he put Harry with the abusive Dursleys and left
innocent Sirius in Azkaban so neither of them would love anyone else.
Then he made sure that Sirius saw that newspaper photo, he secretly
assissted Sirius to escape, and he threw Harry and Sirius together at
the end of PoA in circumstances where they would emotionally bond;
then he separated them because absence makes the heart grow fonder.

Her theory goes on that DD spent OoP putting Harry, Sirius, and LV
together in the DoM. He used the Prophecy as bait for LV. He avoided
Harry so that Harry would have only Sirius to turn to. He insisted on
Occlumency lessons BECAUSE they left Harry's mind more open to LV's
illusions -- he WANTED LV to lure Harry to DoM. He knew Sirius would
rush to rescue Harry. He arranged for Sirius to be in poor fighting
condition at the time, with weakened mental and physical health, by
having kept him confined in that horrible house, with Snape taunting
him, and maybe having him doped with that recklessness potion. The
usual argument against (Kreachur, Snape, or DD) doping Sirius with the
recklessness potion is, if Sirius was out of character, Remus would
have noticed it. If Remus was in on it, then Remus would not have
commented on Sirius's personality being changed by the recklessness
potion. 

In any theory, if Remus shot Sirius, I so desperately hope that Sirius
didn't see who shot him! Spare Sirius one last heartbreak! 

Demuko http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/94110

<< Has anyone seen the striking resemblence between Mundungus Fletcher
and Crookshanks? I can't think of any great examples right now.
However, I do remember reading OotP for the first time a while ago
and thinking to myself that these two characters are very similar in
detail. >>

Ginger hair and bandy legs. Plenty of people have noticed the
similarity, but Mundungus and Crookshanks are not the same person
because they appear in the same scene at Grimmauld Place. Probably
they resemble each other only because JKR drew them both as ugly.

<< I know that Crookshanks is supposed to be a Kneazel. However, I'm
not completely sure what that is either. >>

Kneazles are in FANTASTIC BEASTS AND WHERE TO FIND THEM. However, you
can look them up in the Lexicon: "This very intelligent cat-like
creature can detect unsavory or suspicious persons very well and will
react badly to them. However, if a kneazle takes a liking to a witch
or wizard, it makes an excellent pet. The kneazle has spotted fur,
large ears, and a lion-like tail (FB). Crookshanks is part kneazle
(Nr).". 

You can buy FB via the Lexicon by clicking on the Red book on
http://www.hp-lexicon.org/index-2.html before or after you click to go
to Bestiary to look up Kneazle.

Viridis http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/94157

<< Slytherin built in the Chamber of Secrets ca. thousands years ago.
The entrance to the chapter is behind the sink on which tap there is a
tiny snake engraved. Was such modern plumbing available at Founders'
times? Or the ntrance then was masked by stone basin with cold water
and in the course of Hogwarts many rebuilts magically "transplanted"
itself onto more modern homologue? >>

I believe that Potterverse wizarding folk have had late twentieth
century indoor plumbing and Renaissance 'replica' castles since back
before Atlantis sank. They didn't need to know any plumbing,
hydraulics, metallurgy, stonecarving, or architecture because they
made their bathrooms and castles by MAGIC! However, Muggles who visted
wizards and saw the nice things the wizards had, had to invent all
that technology in order to imitate the wizarding goodies. There is a
long history of Muggles trying to imitate wizarding plumbing: Minoan,
Classical Roman, etc.
 
The wizarding folk teach their children a lot of self-enhancing
falsehoods. For example, they teach their children that the reason to
keep magic secret from Muggles is to avoid being pestered by Muggles
wanting favors (and Hagrid, not having completed his education, still
believes that), when in reality the wizarding folk went into hiding
because they were scared of the Muggles attacking them.

Another example is that they teach their children that Muggles use
technology to imitate what wizards do by magic. Technology probably
*started* that way, Muggles trying to figure out how to make bathrooms
and castles and swords like the wizards had ... this may have remained
true up to the Steam Age, with Muggles inventing horseless carriages
to imitate the horseless carriages that carry students from Hogsmeade
Station to Hogwarts, inventing railroads to imitate wizarding
self-propelled wagons like at Gringotts, gaslight to imitate the
magical self-lighting candles on the wall of wizarding houses ... but
by then the discovery and invention of science and technology had
become self-propelling themselves, and with Electricity, Muggles went
on to invent things that the wizarding folk copy. The Wizarding
Wireless Network is obviously an imitation of Muggle radio, because
it's named after "wireles", the British Muggle name for radio. The
wizarding folk would have no other reason to name it "wireless",
because they didn't have a preceeding technology named "wire" (the
telegraph).

Melclaros http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/94234

<< Are you a teacher? I have taught and I've had students who were
like Hermione. They, without fail, intimidated the rest of the class.
Everyone knew who'd shout out the answer and whose hand would shoot
up first (usually those two things happened simultaneously) and if
there wasn't a unanimous groan when it happened it was giggles
all 'round. >>

My theory is that the reason average schoolteachers hate bright
students who learn all the material is because average schoolteachers
aren't particularly bright, and either feel envious resentment of
everyone who is, or are afraid that the bright students will show up
the teacher's ignorance. If having bright students in class is so hard
for the teacher, how come the teachers' unions all insist on putting
all children of the same age, from genius to mentally retarded, from
took all this subject matter last year in a different school district
to never went to school before and can't even read or write into the
same class?

Neri http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/94236

<< Sorry Snape fans, our Potion Master may be talented, charismatic,
sexy, brave, shrewd, and a superb secret agent. He is also a chronic
child abuser. I see no way out of this conclusion. And in my book,
people who abuse children are bad people. >>

I think Snape enjoys abusing anyone who is vulnerable to him, not just
children.

Seren unbound_to_the_circles
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/94240

<< traditionally, we know that Gryffindor is aligned with Hufflepuff;
conversely, this means Ravenclaw is tradionally aligned with
Slytherin. >>

I think Ravenclaw is traditionally neutral rather than traditionally
aligned with Slytherin. You mentioned that Draco said that being
Sorted into Ravenclaw wouldn't be that bad, but didn't mention times
that Ravenclaws were against Slytherin House. In PS/SS, "From being
one of the most popular and admired people at the school, Harry was
suddenly the most hated. Even Ravenclaws and Hufflepuffs turned on
him, because everyone had been longing to see Slytherin lose the house
cup." and "Which means," Dumbledore called over the storm of applause,
for even Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff were celebrating the downfall of
Slytherin, "we need a little change of decoration."

Kathy King http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/94248

<< At least one of them is quite skilled having turned Ron's teddy
bear into a spider when he was three, which would have meant the twins
were five (not bad transfiguration for a 5 year old, which was Fred by
the way) >>

Am I the only person who read "It's not funny," said Ron, fiercely.
"If you must know, when I was three, Fred turned my - my teddy bear
into a great big fiIthy spider because I broke his toy broomstick ....
You wouldn't like them either if you'd been holding your bear and
suddenly it had too many legs and ... " to mean that Fred's anger
caused unintentional magic like Harry's anger caused blowing up Aunt
Marge?

Anne Siverthorne http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPf
orGrownups/message/94298

<< who are about to go into real situations where the Zen Buddist,
live and let live, No need To Be Pissy and Stressed Out way of dealing
Will Not Work. >>

Please be a darling kitty and leave Zen Buddhism out of it. My
impression from ZEN IN THE ART OF ARCHERY is that Zen was intended for
warriors, not panickers; some place the teacher explains concentration
by saying, suppose you were in a duel to the death, as used to occur
in Japan. People gather to watch, and since you are not blind you see
them, and since you are not deaf you hear them, but you pay no
attention to them because you are totally concentrating on your
opponent's movements.




From MadameSSnape at aol.com  Mon Mar 29 01:58:49 2004
From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 20:58:49 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
Message-ID: <98.6dffd8f.2d98dcd9@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94316

In a message dated 3/28/2004 11:34:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com writes:

Yes, Snape did not stop bullying Neville at all, but if even once 
when Snape has a go at him, Neville can imagine dear Severus in a  
dress and laugh, if his confidence increased at least tiny-tiny bit, 
Lupin achieved his purpose.

Snape certainly got him good, poor man still could not find a job at 
the end of OoP.
======================

Sherrie here:

Unfortunately, it's fairly evident that Lupin did NOT achieve his intent, if 
it was to shore up Neville's backbone when dealing with Snape.  If anything, 
Neville's behavior and reactions in Snape's class are worse in the following 
books, even while his confidence in DADA improves.

As for Lupin not being able to find a job, methinks that has more to do with 
Umbridge than with Snape.  Was it not she who pushed through the law making it 
almost impossible for werewolves to find work?  Obviously, this happened 
sometime AFTER PoA, since it obviously wasn't illegal for Dumbledore to hire him - 
just a highly questionable act, in the view of some.

Sure, Snape outed him to the Slytherins - but he didn't exactly take out an 
ad in the Prophet, now, did he?

My two Knuts - as ever, YMMV.

Sherrie
"Unless history lives in our present, it has no future." 
PRESERVE OUR CIVIL WAR BATTLEFIELDS!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 02:02:04 2004
From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 02:02:04 -0000
Subject: Life-saving bonds
In-Reply-To: <05ca01c4150a$d434c1a0$75d6f943@hppav>
Message-ID: <c4802s+9b8n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94317

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kimberly" <ekrbdg at m...> wrote:
> 
> >Hmm...
> 
> >Amanar (why can't Snape be a vamp? WHY? Oh cruel world!)
> 
> *Kimberly's comment*
> I'm not arguing the point that Snape is or isn't a 
vampire...however, while re-reading GoF this week, this quote jumped 
out at me.
> 
> GoF, Amer. Ed., pg. 566
> Harry and Ron are discussing Snape and what happened to Mr. 
Crouch....
> 
> "Maybe-hang on-how fast d'you reckon he could've gotten down to 
the forest ?   D'you reckon he could've beat you and Dumbledore 
there?"   
> 
> "Not unless he can turn himself into a bat or something," said 
Harry.

I was always taken with THIS quote from Quirrel in PS/SS:

<<Yes, Severus does seem the type, doesn't he? So useful to have him 
swooping around like an overgrown bat.>>

-Joe in SoFla





From annemehr at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 02:05:23 2004
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 02:05:23 -0000
Subject: Hermione flinching at LV's name
In-Reply-To: <c47c9c+6ltn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c48093+9v9l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94318

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ellendvlmaas"
<ellendvlmaas at y...> wrote:
<snip>
> I recently reread SS and am currently rereading OotP (this group has 
> inspired me to pull them out again!). I have been wondering, if 
> Hermione was muggle born and raised, then why does she flinch at 
> Voldemort's name like those raised in the WW? 
<snip>

Annemehr:
As far as I can tell, just riffling through the pages of SS, it's only
Ron who says, "Will you please stop saying the name?" to Harry (for
instance, after they find out DD's left for London).  I think at this
point, Hermione probably just doesn't say it because it isn't "done."

Then in GoF, when Harry, Hermione and the Weasleys are in the tent
after the Dark Mark was conjured at the QWC, Harry says "Voldemort"
and *everybody* flinches.  At this time, Hermione has been in the WW
for three years and has personally seen some of what Voldemort can do.
 She is also best friends with Voldemort's number one target.  I think
she has just had time to develop some of the same fear as the rest of
the WW, and her habit of avoiding the name just reinforces it.

That't my take on it, anyway.

Annemehr





From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 02:13:25 2004
From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 02:13:25 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <98.6dffd8f.2d98dcd9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <c480o5+ubio@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94319

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, MadameSSnape at a... wrote:

> Sure, Snape outed [Lupin] to the Slytherins - but he didn't 
exactly take out an 
> ad in the Prophet, now, did he?

Why would he, when he accomplished what he wanted without going 
through the effort?

-Joe in SoFla




From vmonte at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 02:34:34 2004
From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 02:34:34 -0000
Subject: New Harry Potter movie trailer... Snape in drag scene...
Message-ID: <c481vq+gop5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94321

vmonte here:

Has anyone seen the new movie trailer? I was just playing the Snape
in drag bogart scene from the the Warner Bros. website and I noticed
that the Bogart first morphs into Snape, then into Snape in drag,
then into the face of a screaming witch with long hair, then into a
bat, and then into a scary cartoon like face that seems to be
floating in mist. Check it out -- it's weird.

You need to play the sequence in slow motion to see the 
transformations.

At: www.wb.com & click on Harry Potter image.

vmonte

(Sorry if this was already mentioned.)





From a_rude_mechanical at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 02:44:52 2004
From: a_rude_mechanical at yahoo.com (a_rude_mechanical)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 02:44:52 -0000
Subject: Ron=DD?
In-Reply-To: <000001c41496$1ca93e40$6401a8c0@helenw1>
Message-ID: <c482j4+dosd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94322

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Helen R. Granberry" 
<helen at o...> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
If Dumbledore is a Weasley
> that isn't Ron, my guess would be Percy. As for Aberforth, I think 
he is
> Sirius, but that would take too much explain, lol.
> 


Why Percy?  Why not Bill?  In my way of thinking, there are a lot of 
similarities between Dumbledore and Bill--as far as personality 
goes.  Bill definitely wouldn't know as much as Ron does, so the 
question of why Albus is so in the dark concerning the Animagi, etc, 
could be answered.  

I mean, honestly, I think it's more likely to be Ron than Bill--
particularly since I read OoP...there was much less from Bill than I 
had hoped.  But why discount him?

Oh, and "As for Aberforth, I think he is Sirius, but that would take 
too much to explain."  No!  Explain!  Please!  You can't just say 
that and walk away!!!  

Elisabeth




From lovefromhermione at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 02:48:32 2004
From: lovefromhermione at yahoo.com (Julie Hurdman)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 18:48:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione flinching at LV's name
In-Reply-To: <c47qq8+9nf5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040329024832.56971.qmail@web40201.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94323


--- meriaugust <meriaugust at yahoo.com> wrote:

<snip, snip, snip>

> The flinching is probably
> just a learned 
> behavior, adopted from her dorm mates and from
> countless readings 
> about the horrors inflicted by LV. Although, that
> said, her exposure 
> to the WW is by no means as complete as the
> flinching implies: she 
> has no idea what Mudblood means in CoS when Malfoy
> refers to her 
> using that term. But I always figured that she
> memorized so many 
> books that she just picked up the habit to blend in
> a bit more at 
> school. And Hermione's parents I think are very
> firmly rooted in the 
> mundane, being dentists and all. Barely a sickles
> worth of thought, 
> but there we are.  
> Meri - who wonders what on earth Hermione tells her
> mother and 
> father about what happens while she's away at school
> (and a little 
> bit about what a wedding party consisting of the
> Muggle Grangers and 
> the wizarding Weasleys would look like ;-) )

JuHu jumps in after *finally* catching up on her
HPforGrownups mail:

I have to defend the Grangers here, whom I like a lot
for whatever reason. Trevor the Toad gets more
screentime than they do, but I hold an Arthur-like
fondness for them. Being a dentist doesn't
automatically equate to being mundane, although the
passing references to the Grangers paint the
profession as such. But being a dentist requires a lot
of schooling, study and competence. I'm sure all of us
know those really smart people with a great sense of
(sometimes sarcastic) humor because of their
intelligence. <Nods to Snape, McGonagall and Kneasy
*g*> Not at all mundane. I see the Grangers as
intelligent people being very proud of their
intelligent daughter and interested in the magical
world to which she belongs, even if they often get
shunted to the side.

As for the Grangers at a wizarding wedding party, I
imagine them being willing to celebrate and being
quite amused at Arthur's, hem, *expertise* concerning
their world. (We all laughed in the theatre when he
asked Harry about rubber ducks...) 

JuHu, with a big "Amen!" to Kneasy's feeling of loss
when the movies' actors replaced how we first
envisioned the characters.

=====
============
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. 
That way, when you criticize them, youre a mile away 
from them and you have their shoes.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html



From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Mon Mar 29 03:12:51 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 03:12:51 -0000
Subject: Evaluating Snape (was: Re: Lupin's resentment )
In-Reply-To: <c4642n+emli@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4847j+bsdo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94324

Siriusly Snapey Susan:
> > No evidence??  You mean like his lack of progress w/ 
> > Occlumency?  I suspect if Lupin, McGonagall, DD, heck, throw in 
> > Flitwick, had been Harry's Occulumency teacher, he *would* have 
> > learned.  Their history--which is a *two-way street* of 
> > assumptions and nastiness and hatred--directly affects Harry's 
> > ability & willingness to learn Occlumency.  Notice I'm not 
> > absolving Harry of responsibility for his part in the matter, 
> > but I am saying that I do indeed believe that what Snape has 
> > thrown at Harry for five years *has* most definitely affected 
> > Harry in this way.
  
Kneasy:
> Here we diverge.
> Snape is an equal opportunity tyrant. Annoy  him and you'll know
> about it, no matter who you are.

Susan again:
Do you really think so, Kneasy?  I don't think I'd offer a blanket 
disagreement,  but do you really think Crabbe & Goyle's collective 
thickness doesn't annoy Snape?  Yet we've never seen him act as a 
tyrant to them.  Or would you argue that it occurs, but simply 
offscreen?  I think perhaps *Gryffindors* annoy him (nearly) equally-
-though Harry leads the pack, of course--and so Snape may be an 
equal opportunity tyrant towards the Gryffindors.  Ah, well, you 
*do* agree he's a tyrant, even if I can't get you to admit that 
being one is bad nor that his inequitable treatment of Harry & the 
Gryffindors is wrong.

> What  was very significant IMO was that Snape started needling
> Harry  from day one. This  is  not an accident. It was deliberate
> and contrived. 
> 
> We  agree  that Snape is not an idiot; just the opposite - he seems
> to  be regarded as a Potions super-star. Would such a calculating,
> cold-blooded, non-trivial individual be so unthinking and petty as
> to resurrect an old quarrel with a person now dead down to the
> second generation? Not without a fresh impetus, I think.
> 
> The key word is 'calculating'. What does Snape have to gain from
> giving  Harry  the  hard word  at every opportunity? Not much.
> Unless you  think in wider terms. He has his credentials with the
> DEs and through them to Voldy to think about. And kids will talk.
> It wouldn't do for the likes of Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle to get the
> impression that Sevvy was going soft on the Potter kid.
> 
> If what most of us think is true about Snape's work for the Order,
> then he must be a superb actor to be able to get away with it.
> Every good actor needs his props - and Harry  (and Neville) come
> in very handy indeed.
> 
> DD helps the action along. He gives Harry a reason why Snape hates
> him. His father. This to an 11 year old who doesn't know which way 
> is up in the WW. So now when anyone wonders what's going on, Harry
> can tell them. All nicely wrapped up. This story will run and run.
> 
> I've posted before that  I believe that DD  and Snape are one of 
the 
> best double-acts in the business. DD knows exactly what is going 
on,
> IMO it was probably his idea. All part of his "Let's make sure 
Harry
> is not coddled, spoilt or hero-worshipped" plan. After 11 years in 
> the Muggle  world and seeing the  WW as a refuge he needs to learn
> very, very quickly that there are some nasty people around. And he
> needs to learn how to cope with them. What better  place to  learn 
> than at school? So in a way what Snape does is intended to  have
> an effect on Harry - but it's for a positive reason.
>   
> Now I don't  claim that Snape likes Harry. He probably doesn't like
> anyone much, but he knows and  appreciates  that Harry isn't James
> or Sirius.Them he will never forgive, but he has no real argument
> with Harry, just general levels of scorn and contempt, suitable for
> any incompetent in his classes. 

> Harry, on the other  hand... Hoo! For him it's all real.  Snape 
hates
> him and he hates Snape; even when he finds out that they're both
> on the same side. Snape and DD believe that they can live with 
this,
> it's only a schoolboy's emotional spasm, but it blows up in their
> faces when it comes to Occlumency. Harry is so adamantly anti-
> Snape (anti-everybody, come to that), that he will not co-operate.


Susan again:
I *tried* to snip more here, list elves, but I couldn't make 
myself!  In spite of the fact that I was *trying* to argue w/ you, 
Kneasy, dammit, this is good!  I myself have argued that Snape keeps 
up a front for the DEs and DEs' kids (and thus for Voldy)--in fact I 
did so earlier today when I posted that I believe Snape only applies 
for the DADA position to save face w/ that gang.  So I can hardly 
disagree with you and say that this could not be part of the same DD-
Snape plan.  In fact, if it is truly their plan, it has worked quite 
well.  As you say, it's all VERY real to Harry.

On the other hand, I can still say Snape sucks as a teacher. ;-)  I 
mean, could he not find ways to be nasty to Harry *outside* of the 
classroom or a little less frequently in it?  Or if that's all part 
of The Plan, to at least leave Neville & Hermione & Ron out of his 
cruelty & sarcasm?


Siriusly Snapey Susan:
> > Jeepers, I made that [Grade Abuse] up!  I should NEVER have 
> > coined the phrase in the first place; it was half in jest, which 
> > clearly didn't come through.  

Kneasy:
> Splendid! I like it! An imaginary concept thrown into the thread 
> just to wind everybody up. Must remember to try that myself at an
> opportune moment.

Susan again:
So glad you approve. ;-)

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 03:17:23 2004
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 03:17:23 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <98.6dffd8f.2d98dcd9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <c484g3+9grh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94325

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, MadameSSnape at a... wrote:
> In a message dated 3/28/2004 11:34:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
> > As for Lupin not being able to find a job, methinks that has more 
to do with 
> Umbridge than with Snape.  Was it not she who pushed through the 
law making it 
> almost impossible for werewolves to find work?  Obviously, this 
happened 
> sometime AFTER PoA, since it obviously wasn't illegal for 
Dumbledore to hire him - 
> just a highly questionable act, in the view of some.
> 
> Sure, Snape outed him to the Slytherins - but he didn't exactly 
take out an 
> ad in the Prophet, now, did he?
> 
> My two Knuts - as ever, YMMV.
> 
> Sherrie
> "Unless history lives in our present, it has no future." 
> PRESERVE OUR CIVIL WAR BATTLEFIELDS!




Yes, dear Dolores put anti-werevolves law into action. but for Lupin 
finding a job was never easy, I'd imagine, so being fired from 
Hogwarts must have hurt a lot.

I was just saying that whatever humiliation (well-deserved, IMO) 
Snape suffered after being dressed up in Lupin's lesson, he paid 
Lupin back ten times and more.

Alla





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 03:23:08 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 03:23:08 -0000
Subject: They shoot horses don't they (was Horse Feathers)
In-Reply-To: <c43bva+igea@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c484qs+m4i9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94326

Carol wrote:
> 
> > Harry fell fifty feet from a broom and only broke his arm, 
> 
> Geoff:
> He didn't even break his arm - you may be confusing that with COS 
> when he gets hit by a Bludger. But there were reasons....
> 
> "It was as though Harry's memory was on fast forward. The 
> lightning.... the Grim..... the Snitch.... and the Dementors....
> 'What happened?' he said, sitting up so suddenly they all gasped.
> 'You fell off,' said Fred. 'Must've been - what - fifty feet?'
> 'We thought you'd died,' said Alicia, who was shaking.'"
<snip> 


Carol:
Thanks for the correction, but my point was simply that a fifty-foot
fall that would kill a Muggle barely fazed Harry. In other words,
Wizards (and Witches) are tougher than Muggles, and I doubt that
they'd be killed by a bullet from those metal wands called guns that
Muggles use to kill each other. I'm not sure whether that's the reason
they seem oblivious to World War II and similar Muggle catastrophes,
as someone asked earlier in this thread, but I think it's safe to
state that there won't be many Muggles successfully defending
themselves with guns against Death Eaters, or many Wizards killing
each other with Muggle weapons in VW2. Again, if Lily and James could
not have been killed by a car crash, a Muggle weapon probably would
not have killed them (or any Witch or Wizard of comparable or greater
power). 

Carol




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Mon Mar 29 03:27:59 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 03:27:59 -0000
Subject: Snape, the "Deeply Horrible Person"
In-Reply-To: <c473rt+5luh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4853v+rmnr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94327

Jen wrote:
> I'm re-reading JKR interviews and ran across this one at Quick 
> Quotes:
> 
> Q: Who's your favorite character besides Harry Potter?
> A: It's very hard to choose. It's fun to write about Snape because 
> he's a deeply horrible person. Hagrid is someone I'd love to meet. 
> 
> This seems like a *very* strong negative characterization to me. 
> It also doesn't seem particulary consistent with the canon we have 
> so far. Snape is presented as complex, bitter, angry, etc. But 
> I've never seen his behavior as "deeply horrible" in the way of, 
> say, LV's behavior.
> 
> Since we only know what JKR has given us so far, but she carries 
> with her the full knowledge of each character's past and future 
> actions, I tend to think of these interview comments as either 
> subtle slip-ups or JKR subtly manipulating the way we see a 
> character (for the future *Bang* value!).
> 

Siriusly Snapey Susan:
Wow, Jen, thanks for this.  I find it especially interesting 
because, as you say, JKR knows the full character--past & future--
and so if she used this strong language, it *does* seem to imply 
something even worse than we've seen.

I keep thinking back to a report made [I believe in Newsweek] before 
the SS movie came out, about how JKR had said some things to Alan 
Rickman which no one else knew so far and which helped him in his 
portrayal of Snape.  [I think Chris Columbus remarked about how 
strange it was to see Rickman in the role, because it was *clear* he 
knew more of what was going on than we do.]  Yet, would most people 
agree with me that Rickman's Snape has seemed *less* "deeply 
horrible" than the written Snape?  I wonder what that means, then?

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Mon Mar 29 03:44:27 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 29 Mar 2004 05:44:27 +0200
Subject: More - Zen, Snape and Occlumency
Message-ID: <20040329034427.9385F32F0FF@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 94328

> Anne Siverthorne: 
> << who are about to go into real situations where the Zen Buddist,
> live and let live, No need To Be Pissy and Stressed Out way of dealing
> Will Not Work. >>

Catlady:
> Please be a darling kitty and leave Zen Buddhism out of it. My
> impression from ZEN IN THE ART OF ARCHERY is that Zen was intended for
> warriors, not panickers; some place the teacher explains concentration
> by saying, suppose you were in a duel to the death, as used to occur
> in Japan. 

Having personal experience with Zen Buddhism I can assure both of you that it hasn't been intented neither for warriors nor panickers. Putting it in such perspective is, in fact, senseless. Was Christianity for example intended for warriors or panickers?

Cheers, Viridis
________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!



From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 03:47:35 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 03:47:35 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c43miv+mjj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4868n+g165@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94329

Berit replies:
> 
> <snip> And sorry mate; I never 
> liked Rickman as Snape, he's too tall, too "good-looking", too 
> refined and elegant and not walking in a twitching enough manner to 
> depict Snape correctly. <snip>

Actually, the adult Snape has never been described as "twitchy" and he
tends to sweep gracefully out of every room he enters (aided, of
course, by that long black cloak). He also speaks (most of the time)
in the refined language of an English gentleman. (I happen to think
that Alan Rickman has him pegged, though possibly his teeth are a
little too white.) There's an important transformation that occurs at
some point between the Prank and Harry's first year at Hogwarts.
Possibly it's Occlumency. But the adult Snape's posture is certainly
not that of a round-shouldered fifteen-year-old. For whatever reason,
he has cultivated an image that exudes power and control--not that
he's always in perfect control, but when he's teaching, at least, he's
a far cry from the adolescent who was bullied "because he exists." His
initial speech to his Potions first-years establishes him as a man of
subtle intellect, capable of poetic language that does not in the
least undermine his capacity to daunt or intimidate. He is
the only person of this type that I can recall encountering in the
Potterverse. IMO, Rickman's ability to make him seem both genteel and
dangerous is exactly what's needed for the part.

Carol, who hopes that this post won't be misread as a defense of Alan
Rickman's portrayal of Snape, which of course belongs in the movies
section of HPFGU




From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net  Mon Mar 29 03:50:31 2004
From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 21:50:31 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape, the "Deeply Horrible Person"
References: <c4853v+rmnr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <005101c41540$fbf76040$05030f04@dslverizon.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 94330

{Siriusly Snapey Susan}

I keep thinking back to a report made [I believe in Newsweek] before the SS
movie came out, about how JKR had said some things to Alan Rickman which no
one else knew so far and which helped him in his portrayal of Snape.  [I
think Chris Columbus remarked about how strange it was to see Rickman in the
role, because it was *clear* he knew more of what was going on than we do.]
Yet, would most people agree with me that Rickman's Snape has seemed *less*
"deeply horrible" than the written Snape?  I wonder what that means, then?


{Silverthorne}

Snape does seem more 'gentile' on film, doesn't he? Here are a few
possibilities as to why...

1) Alan Rickman dropped the ball in regards to Snape's 'true' nature (Which
I doubt, since every piece I have seen him in he has done a superb acting
job--compare the Sherriff of Nottingham to Colonel Brandon to see my point.
Two characters played by the same man could not be any more obviously
different. So different in fact that I failed to realize it was Rickman in
Sense and Sensibility until I'd watched it about 5 times...)

2) Snape the Evil and Horrible Man is quite excellent at hiding his true
nature...(er....um...considering the thrown cockroach jars and hot blooded
reactions to certain...things...not likely...his ability to hide that very
nature from Harry (and the audience) should be a necessity if he's trying to
keep his DE loyalties under wraps and is good at it ^^;)

3) Rickman, since he is in a medium that does not allow us the luxury of
getting into the characters mind easily (and that will, quite frankly, not
give the screen time necessary to get into too much detail about Snape's
'true nature'), has been given liscence to hint at what Snape is really
about...and it's not the monster he's most often taken for...

There are other possibilities of course, but that's the first few that come
to mind, if we're assuming Rickman is using book info in his
characterizations...

Anne





From annemehr at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 03:50:25 2004
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 03:50:25 -0000
Subject: Harry, Snape,Occlumency
In-Reply-To: <c47e1f+4j9u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c486e1+jhta@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94331


> > Annemehr wrote:
> > > So Occlumency lessons did indeed make Harry more vulnerable to the
> > > scar connection.  Yet Snape never warned Harry of this effect, 
> > > which added to Harry's confusion.  No wonder the kid had trouble 
> > > learning! 
<snip>
> > 
> > Tip replied:
> > I feel ... something much more along the lines of Harry not really 
> > wanting to stop the visions. ..., Harry is also somewhat drawn
> > to hear the voices of his parents, something he had never previously
> > heard. So his desires were clashing with what he knew he should or
> > was supposed to be doing.
> > 
> > Tip
> 
> 
> bboy_mn:
> 
> First, regardless of what any of the Snape defenders say, Snape did a
> lousy job of teaching Harry. I don't think Snape did that with
> willfull intent. I think the tension and animosity between him and
> Harry is so great the neither of them was capable of making the
> situation work.
> 
> Put yourself in a situation where someone, like an evil drill sargent,
> is standing over you screaming at you to be calm and clear your mind.
> That's just not going to work.
<snip>

Annemehr:
Yes, this is all true.  Occlumency was apparently doomed.  Reasons for
its failure:

1)The bad relationship between Snape and Harry -- Dumbledore refers to
this as Snape having wounds too deep for healing.  Dumbledore blames
himself for having Snape teach Harry; he does not place the blame with
either Snape or Harry for the problem.  The flip side of the
relationship, of course, is that it is very stressful for Harry to
have his mind invaded by a teacher he distrusts so much, making it
much more difficult to clear his mind.

2)The lateness of the attempt -- Voldemort's desire to get behind the
door of the DoM has infected Harry's mind for six months before the
lessons even begin.  That desire is now Harry's desire as far as he
knows.  Furthermore, the lessons were not attempted until after
Voldemort had become aware of the connection to Harry, so Harry now
had to learn while LV is actively putting things into his head.

3)The "Drill Seargent" method -- Here I'll let Anne (Silverthorne)
summarise the reasoning behind it:
> However, for Military trained people <snip>, the
> ability to remain calm and rational no matter *what* Mr Asshole 
> Seargant is screaming <snip> at you is one of the primary foci of 
> training.
> Why? Because later, when you're stuck in a fox hole with bombs going
> off right over your head, a bleeding gut wound, and the best buddy
> you knew since high school laying right next to you with his guts
> hanging out, you're still going to have to be able to function and
> *think* in order to survive where you're at.
True, Voldemort is certainly not going to make it easy for Harry.  The
reason this teaching method becomes a problem, though, is because of
problems 1) and 2) above.  In other words, the urgency and stress
involved make it harder for Harry to clear his mind. I agree with Anne
and bboy_mn in not placing blame here.

4)It gets worse before it gets better -- as Dumbledore told Harry, "I
have already said that it was a mistake for me not to teach you
myself, though I was sure, at the time, that nothing could have been
more dangerous than to open your mind even further to Voldemort while
in my presence --" and Harry replies, "Snape made it worse, my scar
always hurt worse after lessons with him --"  Unfortunately, Harry
never knew while the lessons were going on that this was an expected
side-effect.  If he had known, he may have distrusted Snape less.

5)Harry is arguably having the most stressful time of his life -- and
I'll just let bboy_mn's excellent summary speak for itself:
> Also, as the school year progresses circumstances conspire against
> Harry's efforts. It's already a high-stress year with O.W.L.s coming
> up and homework overload. That is then compounded by Umbridges ever
> more foul powerplays. Harry is infuriated by Snape's general attitude,
> and the fact that Snape is offering no helpful technique at achieving
> the goal he demands. As Tip pointed out, Harry is consumed by
> curiousity about what is behind that door in the Department of
> Mysteries, and who wouldn't be. He has lost Quidditch which was one of
> his best methods for coping with stress. He is worried about Sirius.
> He is worried about Voldemort. He is worried about Cho. He is worried
> about Ron. So, while he should be worrying less, circumstances are
> forcing him, as it would with any normal person, to worry more.
[end quote from bboy_mn]

6)Harry doesn't take it seriously enough -- Snape did affirm to him
that Voldemort would try to make Harry "do things," but we also have
this from Dumbledore as he's leaving after the discovery of the DA:
"Listen to me Harry," he said urgently, "you must study Occlumency as
hard as you can, do you understand me? Do everything Professor Snape
tells you and practice it particularly every night before sleeping so
that you can close your mind to bad dreams -- you will understand why
soon enough, but you must promise me --" [OoP ch. 27]  We never see
that this had any effect on Harry.  Even after "Snape's Worst Memory,"
when the lessons have stopped, Lupin tells him through the Floo,
"Harry, there is nothing so important as you learning Occlumency! Do
you understand me? Nothing!"  Though the lessons never resumed, Harry
still could have tried to clear his mind at bedtime.  Perhaps Harry
has already given up on being able to learn, since these exhortations
come quite late in the proceedings.  We can try to analyse why Harry
never gives Occlumency the effort he is urged to, but I won't do it
here as it'd just be pure speculation on my part.


So that's everything I could find that worked against Harry learning
Occlumency, with help from Tip, bboy_mn and Anne.  I agree with
bboy_mn that JKR wrote all this very believably and in character.  

And I still wonder, if Harry had learned it, would he have had to
maintain the Occlumency block 24/7 in order to keep Voldemort from
ever influencing or possessing him? And would it really have been
effective, given the scar connection is not the same as Legilimency?

Annemehr





From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net  Mon Mar 29 03:59:38 2004
From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 21:59:38 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] re:More - Zen, Snape and Occlumency
References: <20040329034427.9385F32F0FF@front.interia.pl>
Message-ID: <005b01c41542$41949d60$05030f04@dslverizon.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 94332

> Having personal experience with Zen Buddhism I can assure both of you that
it hasn't been intented neither for warriors nor panickers. Putting it in
such perspective is, in fact, senseless. Was Christianity for example
intended for warriors or panickers?
>
> Cheers, Viridis


{Silverthorne}

Gomen-nasai, my mistake.

Point was--peaceful, 'one with the world' thought process (the most 'common'
understanding of Zen for non-practitioners) does not work in the situations
mentioned, other than to keep the practictioner calm (and respectful of Life
around them). So, my apologies to practitioners of the Zen Buddism methods
available nowadays...

Anne





From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 04:10:13 2004
From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 04:10:13 -0000
Subject: Ron=DD?
In-Reply-To: <000101c4152c$d9d3d7a0$6401a8c0@helenw1>
Message-ID: <c487j5+4bqa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94333

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Helen R. Granberry" <helen at o...> wrote:
> 
> 
> But then, why would Prof. Marchbanks remember it two years before it
> happened? Sorry 
> for being obtuse...
> 
> Antosha
> 
> 
> Ron goes back in time. He takes his NEWTS in the PAST, when Professor
> Marchbanks was young. 
> 
> For better understanding, check the timeline here:
> 
> http://www.livejournal.com/community/unplottables/5231.html 
> 
> And... check out http://www.knight2king.net :)

Ah! Thank you for the link. Still not sure if I buy it--as one of the posters on the 
livejournal community said (quoting Chief O'Brien), "I hate temporal mechanics."

It seems odd that DD wouldn't even examine the possibility of tipping 'himself' (that is, 
Ron) off, thereby changing the timeflow. We know he's willing to do it--he sent Harry and 
Hermione back with the Time Turner in PoA to rescue Sirius and Buckbeak. Also, why take 
the name Dumbledore in the first place? And do we imagine that one of Ron's brothers 
goes back to become the strange, goat-connected, Hog's Head-connected Aberforth? The 
two descriptions of Aberforth don't match any of Ron's brothers, all of whom, we are quite 
assured, can read.

I'm sure that time travel will play a large role in one or both of the last books. And I'm just 
as certain that we'll find out something surprising about DD's connection to Harry. I'm just 
not sold that this is the form it will take.




From elfundeb at comcast.net  Mon Mar 29 05:17:25 2004
From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb2)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 05:17:25 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION:  Chapter 15 (The Hogwarts High Inquisitor)
Message-ID: <c48bh5+u8ur@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94334

Chapter 15 begins at breakfast in the Great Hall on Monday morning.  
The Trio grimly read the headline story in the Daily Prophet 
(promised in Percy's letter, which arrived the night before), which 
announces surprise legislation passed by the Ministry creating the 
post of Hogwarts High Inquisitor, Dolores Umbridge's appointment to 
the post, and her outlines her power to inspect her fellow teachers.

The students proceed to classes.  Snape passes back homework graded, 
he says, to OWL standards, and describes the students' performance 
as abysmal.  Harry receives a "D" for "Dreadful" but manages to make 
a creditable Strengthening Solution.  After class, Hermione chatters 
on about OWLs and at lunch she gets a tutorial about the OWL grading 
system from Fred and George, who also describe Umbridge's inspection 
of Flitwick as "no big deal."

That afternoon, Umbridge arrives in Divination class for an 
inspection.  Trelawney is quite unnerved by Umbridge's presence, but 
tries to proceed as usual.  Once the class is busy, Umbridge asks 
Trelawney about her appointment to the Hogwarts staff and her family 
background, then commands her to make a prediction.  Trelawney 
predicts dire things for Umbridge.

In DADA class, Umbridge again assigns silent reading.  Hermione 
reveals that she has read the entire book and questions the author's 
dismissive views of counter-jinxes.  Umbridge responds that 
her "Ministry-approved" teaching method does not permit students to 
give opinions.  After Umbridge speaks approvingly of Quirrell, Harry 
makes a snide remark about Voldemort and earns another week of 
detention.  McGonagall learns of the detentions and docks points 
from Gryffindor.  Hermione backs up McGonagall.

On Tuesday morning, Umbridge inspects Transfiguration and Care of 
Magical Creatures classes.  McGonagall ignores Umbridge until 
Umbridge interrupts her, then furiously upbraids her for 
interrupting.  This silences Umbridge until the end of class, when 
she questions McGonagall, who reveals that she began teaching 39 
years ago in December.  In Care of Magical Creatures, Umbridge then 
probes Grubbly-Plank about Hagrid and asks for an "outsider's 
assessment" of Dumbledore.  Umbridge is incredulous to hear that 
Grubbly-Plank finds Dumbledore to be an excellent headmaster.  The 
Slytherins describe the Buckbeak incident.

Hermione and Ron are waiting up for Harry when he returns from 
detention that night.  Hermione has a bowl of murtlap essence ready 
to soothe the wound in Harry's hand.  After lamenting that they 
won't learn any DADA at all from Umbridge, Hermione nervously 
suggests that they just do it themselves, and when Ron protests that 
they can't learn DADA without a teacher, Hermione suggests that 
Harry teach them.  Harry protests that everything he's accomplished 
against Voldemort was a lucky fluke and that he had no clue what he 
was doing, but Hermione responds that they need Harry to show them 
what it's really like to face "Voldemort" ? using his name for the 
first time.  This gets Harry's attention and he agrees to think 
about it.  The chapter ends with Harry dreaming once again of long 
corridors.

Questions

1.  According to the Daily Prophet, the High Inquisitor position was 
the result of "surprise legislation" passed by the Ministry on a 
Sunday night.  Who passed that legislation?  A legislative body?  If 
so, who is it composed of?  How is it chosen?  Why wasn't it 
mentioned by name?

2. The Daily Prophet quotes Percy Wesley extensively.  How 
enthusiastic do you think his support really is?  Does he honestly 
believe what he says, is he doing it to get ahead of the Ministry, 
or does he really think he owes unquestioning obedience to his 
superiors?  How does the Percy we see here square with the Percy we 
saw in PS/SS who admired Dumbledore's brilliance?

3. What, if anything, do the respective grades that Snape awarded to 
the Trio and to Draco (whose behavior seems to imply a passing 
grade) tell us about Snape's teaching methods?  His motivational 
skills?   Does he have a hidden motive?  If so, what?
  
4. Does it seem out of character for the grade-obsessed Hermione to 
be quizzing Fred and George (of all people) about OWL grades?  Why 
didn't she research this like she researches everything else?  Do 
you think JKR did this purposefully?  If so, why?

5. What did Umbridge hoped to achieve through the inspections?  Has 
she targeted certain professors (we learn that Flitwick's was "no 
big deal")?  Does she have a hidden agenda beyond discrediting 
Dumbledore, and if so, what is it?  Is JKR using Umbridge to lampoon 
government interference in education?

6. How can Umbridge possibly have enough time to inspect so many 
classes *and* teach all the DADA classes as well?

7. Did you guess after reading Trelawney's inspection that 
Trelawney's hiring had to do with her first correct predicion?  And 
did anyone mark the fact that Trelawney's dire prediction for 
Umbridge came true in the Forbidden Forest?

8. What, if anything, does the revelation of McGonagall's December 
starting date at Hogwarts signify?  Is this a clue to a significant 
backstory, or a red herring?

9. Compare Harry's reaction to the suggestion that he teach DADA to 
the others, to Harry's thoughts upon learning that Ron had been 
selected prefect.  What do the differences tell us, if anything, 
about Harry's development or his state of mind?  Has anything 
changed?

10. What do you think motivated Hermione to ask Harry to teach 
DADA?  Did you find this to be a logical progression of her 
character development?  Were you surprised?  What about her attempt 
to gain courage by saying Voldemort's name aloud?  

Debbie


NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/67817 and

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/85829 as well as

"OotP Chapter Discussions" at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database








From navarro198 at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 29 05:18:22 2004
From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 05:18:22 -0000
Subject: DADA post question
In-Reply-To: <20040326212643.99441.qmail@web60110.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c48biu+9id7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94335

Carol:
But back to DADA--DD hires total incompetents rather than giving the 
position to McGonagall, Snape, or Flitwick. We don't know of 
anything the students learned from Quirrell; all they learned from 
Lockhart was not to release Cornish Pixies into a classroom and how 
*not* to defend yourself in a duel; and even Lupin only taught them 
how to deal with a few minor Dark beings or creatures or however you 
would classify hinkypunks and boggarts.

Owlery2003 comments:
Give Lupin and Moody/Crouch their due - they at least made an effort 
to provide instruction/lessons that would be useful. But now, why 
not appoint an AUROR to teach? Or, as DD astutely attempted, an ex-
auror (maybe very few live that long). I'd love to see the real Mad 
Eye come back to Hogwarts - he's a perfect complement to the staff. 
In general, though, Auror's have "been there."

Bookworm:
Somewhere in PS/SS, someone (Hagrid, IIRC) said that Quirrell had 
been on sabbatical. That tells me he was in the position of DADA 
instructor for more that just one year, and that he cared enough 
about his field to try to improve his skills/experience. Carol 
states we don't know what the students learned from him ? could that 
be because he was an average teacher and there wasn't anything 
remarkable about the lessons either negative or positive? I question 
whether it was Quirrell's lack of competence, or the situation he 
was in that made him seem incompetent. Or do we remember him as 
incompetent only in hindsight? (Being defeated by a notoriously 
powerful opponent doesn't mean he was incompetent, just not powerful 
enough.)

Lockhart was, well, Lockhart. Dumbledore must have had a good reason 
for hiring him, At least I hope so, we just don't think we have 
learned what it is yet. I believe that we will see Lockhart again, 
and that he will have some role besides comic relief.

Lupin *was* a competent instructor. Crouch!Moody made positive 
comments about what the students had learned, referring to the notes 
Lupin left behind for his replacement. Even Crouch!Moody was a 
competent instructor even if he was the villain.  Remember that Fred 
and George were excited about his class, and the students learned 
about the dangerous spells they might have to defend against in the 
future.

Umbridge ? well, if you can't say something nice about someone....

So 3 of the 5 DADA instructors we have met were basically competent. 
I'm not sure why Lockhart was there, but Umbridge was a political 
appointee. I agree it would be nice to see Moody back as an 
instructor, but somehow I don't think he'd be willing. As for 
another Auror, that depends on whether protecting Harry and/or 
Hogwarts outweighs the other tasks they have going on now that the 
Ministry has confirmed that Voldemort is back. 

Also, we know that Snape has requested the job (Does he really want 
it? Is this just part of the game he and Dumbledore are playing? But 
that is another subject.), but we don't know what skills Flitwick, 
McGonagall, or any of the others have that would qualify them for 
the DADA position.

Ravenclaw Bookworm





From ekrbdg at msn.com  Mon Mar 29 01:43:12 2004
From: ekrbdg at msn.com (Kimberly)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 20:43:12 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] From JK Rowling World Book Day Chat - 3/4/04
References: <c47tqt+csm7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <08ed01c4152f$33c967a0$75d6f943@hppav>

No: HPFGUIDX 94336

vmonte:
>Is anyone starting to think that someone else was at Godric's Hollow 
>besides the Potters and Voldemort? 

 
(Kimberly)
I do think someone else was there.    I have this sneaky suspicion that it was
a certain Potions teacher, perhaps in the form of a bat.    I don't think Voldemort was aware that another party was there.    I think they were small enough to be unseen.    Would make it ideal for a bat to be there, hidden.    Now, why Snape would have been at the Potters is anyone's supposition.    If there was an indication that Voldemort was headed to the Potters' perhaps Snape went to warn them.   

Kimberly, just something I see as being possible


---
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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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From bcbgx6 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 04:26:01 2004
From: bcbgx6 at yahoo.com (Brian)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 04:26:01 -0000
Subject: Snape, the "Deeply Horrible Person"
In-Reply-To: <c4853v+rmnr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c488gp+nkgg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94337

Jen wrote:
> > > > 
> > This seems like a *very* strong negative characterization to me. 
> > It also doesn't seem particulary consistent with the canon we 
have 
> > so far. Snape is presented as complex, bitter, angry, etc. But 
> > I've never seen his behavior as "deeply horrible" in the way of, 
> > say, LV's behavior.

Brian writes:

The classroom (and out of classroom) behavior Snape has demonstrated 
constitute "seriously horrible" in my view.  I've taught a few 
classes in my day, and, at least in the context of my personality, it 
takes some serious willpower to do and say some of the things Snape 
has done and said.  Even if he is the "complex villain" that many 
hope him to be, some of his words and actions are startingly cruel.  
If JKR is ever found guilty of any literary fault, it might be that 
her adult perspectives bleed through her constructions of character 
and dialogue.  Snape's characterization, in my view, has all the 
hallmarks of an adult description.  His actions might be defensible 
from a Machiavellian perspective, but from a human nature 
perspective, he is either one hell of a method actor or he is a 
seriously sadistic Snape!  
> > 
> > Since we only know what JKR has given us so far, but she carries 
> > with her the full knowledge of each character's past and future 
> > actions, I tend to think of these interview comments as either 
> > subtle slip-ups or JKR subtly manipulating the way we see a 
> > character (for the future *Bang* value!).
> > 
> Brian writes:
JKR has, so far, given a few hints that we should treat Snape with 
more derision than we have, so far.  Her interviews are interesting 
in that we might never know how much her fans have influenced her 
fiction.  If she peruses the Internet, and, no doubt, this site, she 
might be responding to postings that she's seen.  I guess the short 
version of my post is that JKR has got one hell of a poker face or 
she is jerking us like the proverbial gherkin!


> I keep thinking back to a report made [I believe in Newsweek] 
before 
> the SS movie came out, about how JKR had said some things to Alan 
> Rickman which no one else knew so far and which helped him in his 
> portrayal of Snape.  [I think Chris Columbus remarked about how 
> strange it was to see Rickman in the role, because it was *clear* 
he 
> knew more of what was going on than we do.]  Yet, would most people 
> agree with me that Rickman's Snape has seemed *less* "deeply 
> horrible" than the written Snape?  I wonder what that means, then?
> 
> Siriusly Snapey Susan

Brian writes:

I agree that Rickman's snape seems remotely redeemable.  If you 
compare his portrayal of this Snape with his portrayal of the Sheriff 
of Nottingham, Snape seems downright amiable!  This comment is in the 
HPFGU-movie province, but we are discussing JKR's comment, with the 
assumption that she has spoken with the actors who portray characters 
on the big screen.  

Someone once advised me to read _Ivanhoe_, by Sir Walter Scott, 
because the villain, Sir Brian de Bois Guilbert is a "complex 
villain."  After reading the admittedly plodding book, I realized 
that de Guilbert was a complex villain because his epistemology and 
worldview were quite individuated for the times in which he was set.  
If Snape meets these criteria, we can add him to the list of complex 
villains.  Or, perhaps, he will join the ranks of redeemed villains, 
like Darth Vader.

Brian B., who can't get enough HPFGU.


ADMIN NOTE:  Please send any responses addressing Rickman's portrayal of Snape should to our sister list, HPFGU-Movie.  Responses comparing Snape to literary villains may, of course, be posted here.





From navarro198 at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 29 05:42:07 2004
From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 05:42:07 -0000
Subject: Snape outing Harry as Parselmouth (was Re: If DD knows, then why..?)
In-Reply-To: <c446om+b6ku@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c48cvf+smao@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94338

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" 
<rredordead at a...> wrote:
Not to mention Draco didn't seem to get in 
> to trouble using it, nor did it cause a stur among the children 
> watching. There would have been some kind of reaction if it was 
> something that unusual to come from a 13-year-old boy.

Bookworm:
(CoS p194 US): "... a long black snake shot out of it [Harry's 
wand], fell heavily onto the floor between them, and raised itself, 
ready to strike. There were screams as the crowd backed swiftly 
away, clearing the floor." <argument between Snape and Lockhart over 
who would get rid of it> then, "...there was a loud bang; the snake, 
instead of vanishing, flew ten feet into the air and fell back to 
the floor with a loud smack. Enraged, hissing furiously, it 
slithered straight toward Justin Finch-Fletchley and raised itself 
again, fangs exposed, poised to strike." After Harry told the snake 
to calm down: "Snape, too was looking at Harry in an unexpected way: 
It was a shrewd and calculating look, and Harry didn't like it. He 
was also dimly aware of an ominous muttering all around the walls."

So there was a reaction from the other students to the appearance of 
the snake, but that fear was overshadowed by the revelation of Harry 
speaking Parceltongue. And Draco wouldn't get in trouble because he 
could claim honestly that his Head of House had told him what to do. 
(p193)

Ravenclaw Bookworm





From ashleyjax2 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 03:12:32 2004
From: ashleyjax2 at yahoo.com (Ashley Masley)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 19:12:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Harry's disposition
In-Reply-To: <c4585t+8sn2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040329031232.56268.qmail@web21503.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94339

Harry acts very different in book five from the Harry we normally know in the past books, yes. But it is just hormones.  He will eventually become the real, calm Harry that Ron and hermione like.  I also really hope that Hermione never acts like that because it will be ten times worse since she is a young women hanging out with two guys that sometimes do "Have the emotional range of a teaspoon."  

        Ashley


---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.

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From ashleyjax2 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 03:19:23 2004
From: ashleyjax2 at yahoo.com (Ashley Masley)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 19:19:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Evaluating Snape (was: Re: Lupin's resentment )
In-Reply-To: <c4576t+52fg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040329031923.42922.qmail@web21510.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94340

I fully agree with you Joe.  Maybe Hermione does know something.  She is very secretive about those types of things.  IF Snape is a vampire and Hermione does know then maybe she waiting for more proof before telling Ron and harry.  She might not even tell them at all though because she could be afraid that they might take it the wrong way and go off telling the whole school.Then if Snape found out that it was her that figured out that he was a vampire he would do something to her or Gryffindor House to make them pay.  He would not be very happy...that for sure.

 
Ashley

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





From catlady at wicca.net  Mon Mar 29 05:56:42 2004
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 05:56:42 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION:  Chapter 15 (The Hogwarts High Inquisitor)
In-Reply-To: <c48bh5+u8ur@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c48dqq+ck0t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94341

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "elfundeb2" <elfundeb at c...> wrote:
 
> In DADA class, Umbridge again assigns silent reading.  Hermione 
> reveals that she has read the entire book and questions the author's 
> dismissive views of counter-jinxes.

Apparently Slinkhard wrote that 'counter-jinx' is merely what people
call their jinxes in order to sound respectable. That seems factually
wrong to me. Exmples in canon give me the impression that
'counter-jinx' is not a jinx on someone who 'deserves it' but rather a
shield against a jinx or an antidote for its effects. 

Here's a snippet from GoF Ch. 31 'The Third Task': "He was still
having trouble with the Shield Charm, though. This was supposed to
cast a temporary, invisible wall around himself that deflected minor
curses; Hermione managed to shatter it with a well placed Jelly-Legs
Jinx. Harry wobbled around the room for ten minutes afterwards before
she had looked up the counter-jinx." In that example, the counter-jinx
is an antidote.

And Ch 14, Crouch!Moody's Unforgiveable Curses lesson chapter, uses
the term 'counter-curse', which I think is much the same as
counter-jinx. "Not nice," he said calmly. "Not pleasant. And there's
no counter-curse. There's no blocking it. Only one known person has
ever survived it, and he's sitting right in front of me." 




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 06:00:53 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 06:00:53 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c447q1+61fq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c48e2l+josr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94342

Alla:
>  Snape is not trying to mold and toughen students up 
> > (although he may be fooling himself that he is), he is trying to 
> > knock them down. 
> 
> Well, I used to think that he tries to toughen his students up, but 
> as I said - not anymore. That argument went out of the window for me 
> with the end of Occlumency lessons. Unless by "toughen up" we mean 
> letting his students (or one student) be possessed by Voldemort.

Carol:

The fact that LV enters Harry's mind can't be blamed on either the
Occlumency lessons or their abandonment. Nor is Voldemort's
manipulation of Harry's mind Snape's doing. It was happening before
the Occlumency lessons, which were begun (probably too late) *because*
of that manipulation. Snape is alarmed by the extent of it and relates
what he has seen in Harry's mind) to Dumbledore: "Professor Snape
discovered that [Harry] had been dreaming about the door to the
Department of Mysteries for months" (OoP Am. ed. 829). He also tells
Dumbledore about Harry's vision of Rookwood and Voldemort (829).
Whether or not the lessons are helping Harry, they are at least
providing useful information for Dumbledore, which snape dutifully
reports. Until the incident with the Pensieve, Snape is doing his part
in the lessons, defining Occlumency and telling Harry what he needs to
do (but isn't doing), but Harry distrusts him: "Snape made it
worse--my scar always hurt after lessons with him" (835). But despite
his own resistance to the lessons, he learns enough that he could have
prevented the dream from coming, even without further lessons after
the Pensieve incident. As he admits to Dumbledore: "I didn't practice,
I didn't bother, I could've stopped myself having those dreams" (829).

You said in another post that if Dumbledore knew that Snape had
stopped the lessons, then you would consider not blaming Snape for
letting Harry have the dream that sent him to the MoM. (Forgive the
bad paraphrase--if that's not your meaning, please correct me.)
Dumbledore *did* know, as he tells Harry after the battle at the MoM:

"Snape stopped giving me Occlumency lessons! Harry snarled. "He threw
me out of his office!"

"I am aware of it," said Dumbledore heavily. "I have already said that
it was a mistake for me not to teach you myself. . . ."

. . . Harry remembered Ron's thoughts on the subject and plunged on.
"How do you know he wasn't trying to soften me up for Voldemort, make
it easier for him to get inside my--"

"I trust Severus Snape," said Dumbledore simply. "But I forgot. . .
that some wounds run too deep for the healing. I thought Professor
Snape could overcome his feelings about your father--I was wrong." (833)

Note that the abandonment of the Occlumency lessons does not diminish
Dumbledore's trust in Snape. Nor does he apparently blame Snape
stopping the lessons. Dumbledore could have ordered Snape to "get over
it" and resume the lessons, but he didn't. Why not? Might it be that
*Snape* sensed that they were doing more harm than good and asked
Dumbledore to let him abandon them? Was there something in that
Pensieve that it would have been extremely dangerous for Voldemort to
see in Harry's mind? 

We don't always know why Dumbledore does things, and we know that he
(like JKR) often withholds information. Maybe he is using Snape's
hatred of James as the reason that the lessons were stopped, but maybe
there's another, more important reason. Maybe the anger Harry felt
toward Snape, like the anger he felt towards Dumbledore, was partly
the result of Voldemort's invasion of his mind. Maybe that anger made
it impossible for him to benefit from the lessons. If so, maybe Snape
(once he cooled down after the Pensieve incident) understood that
Harry was not in a fit mental state to continue the lessons. In any
case, if the lessons had been the one means of preventing Harry from
going to the MoM and Dumbledore knew that he would have insisted on
continuing the lessons. He could have ordered Snape to resume the
lessons, and Snape would have had no choice but to do so. Instead, he
chose not to resume the lessons. And I doubt very much that the real
reason has anything to do with James.

Harry's decision to go to the MoM wa not made because Snape ended the
Occlumency lessons. He himself chose to go there, against Hermione's
advice, just as Sirius chose to go there against Snape's advice.
Moreover, Harry owes his own life and that of his friends to Snape's
summoning of Dumbledore and the Order.

JKR has told us to watch Snape carefully and not to judge him by
appearances. The Occlumency lessons and their abandonment are examples
of the sort of scene into which we can easily read too much--or too
little. Even if Snape is wholly at fault (and I don't think he is),
his decision to end the Occlumency lessons no more caused Harry to go
to the MoM than Harry's going to the MoM caused Sirius's death or his
saving Peter caused Voldemort's return. It is one event in a complex
chain of events, one decision among many. And it should also be
weighed against Snape's other actions and decisions. One mistake--if
it was a mistake--should not be grounds for condemning a character who
 in other circumstances shows great courage and loyalty to Dumbledore.
At the very least, we should reserve judgment until the end of Book 7.

Carol




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 06:26:14 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 06:26:14 -0000
Subject: Fields of Magic (was Re: Potions Master Question)
In-Reply-To: <c44b4n+l0p2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c48fi6+qn1l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94343

Carol wrote: <snipped>
Snape (IMO) did such a good job there (despite his sarcasm, his
students learn what he teaches) that DD has left him there for
fourteen years, also giving him the prestigious position of Head of
Slytherin House. (It's possible, though, that he was the only 
former Slytherin teaching at Hogwarts, in which case the honor would
have gone to him by default.) His current role as DD's righthand man
was probably earned by proving himself worth of DD's trust. Compared 
with the other teachers, he's still young, but there's a big
difference between 22 and 37 or 38.
 
> Potioncat responded:
> I don't think anyone would get a head of house if their only 
> qualification was that they had been in that house. Perhaps if 
> several equally qualified individuals applied and one was from the 
> house, that would be the deciding factor.  To clarify, I think he 
> deserved the position.
> 
> BTW, do we know when Snape became head of Slytherin?

Carol again:
For the record, I agree completely. He's perfect as Head of Slytherin,
whether or not he received the position by default. But I felt I had
to concede that point because someone was bound to make it if I didn't
since we really don't know of any other Slytherin teachers. I'm
guessing that they're quite rare at Hogwarts. But, to repeat, there's
no question in my mind that he deserves the position.

As for how long he's been there, the friendly rivalry between Snape
and McGonagall seems well established before Harry enters Hogwarts
(IIRC, "I couldn't look Severus Snape in the eye for weeks" occurs is
SS/PS and relates to the previous year). I think it would be highly
unusual for a brand-new, very young teacher to receive such a
position, but maybe he's held it for five years or so before Harry
enters Hogwarts. We don't have much to go on, one way or the other.

Carol




From gbannister10 at aol.com  Mon Mar 29 06:51:11 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 06:51:11 -0000
Subject: Mending Harry's glasses
In-Reply-To: <1205313953.20040328162948@msn.com>
Message-ID: <c48h0v+frn6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94344

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Susanne <siskiou at m...> wrote:

ellen: 
> > How did she know so much and where did she learn
> > the "reparo" charm that fixed Harry's glasses? 

Susanne:
> Well, she didn't fix Harry's glasses in the books.
> That only happens in the movies.
> 

Geoff:
In COS, Arthur Weasley does it in Flourish & Blotts....

"Gasping for breath, she (Molly) pulled a large clothes brush out of 
her bag and began sweeping of the soot Hagrid hadn't managed to beat 
away. Mr. Weasley took Harry's glasses, gave them a tap of hisw and 
and returned them, good as new."

(COS "At Flourish and Blotts" p. 46 UK edition)

I can't recall it happening in PS - certainly not on the train....





From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 06:59:54 2004
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 06:59:54 -0000
Subject: Hermione flinching at LV's name
In-Reply-To: <c47c9c+6ltn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c48hha+im6b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94345

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ellendvlmaas"
<ellendvlmaas at y...> wrote:

> 
> I recently reread SS and am currently rereading OotP (this group has 
> inspired me to pull them out again!). I have been wondering, if 
> Hermione was muggle born and raised, then why does she flinch at 
> Voldemort's name like those raised in the WW? 
> 
> ...edited...
> 
> Ellen


bboy_mn:

Hermione flinches or at least react to some extent, but for different
reasons than wizards do. 

In the wizard's world words are very powerful things; you can, in
fact, kill a person with a word or two. Then there is the old general
religious concept that to speak the devil's name is to call him to
your side. Although, the point of speaking the devil's name is the
same, word are powerful and dangerous things.

Hermione on the other hand is reacting to social conditioning. She is
very preceptive, and it certainly doesn't take her long to figure out
that saying Voldemort's name is a very very big social blunder. So
when people say the name, she response to their social blunder,
whereas in the same situation, wizards react to the dangerous power
this world /might/ have.

Just a thought.

bboy_mn





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 07:52:10 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 07:52:10 -0000
Subject: The Twins' Bet (Was: Ron=DD?)
In-Reply-To: <Sea2-F17quG8Yss93Do0002f5ae@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <c48kja+5lmk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94346

Kathy King wrote:
 They had apparently, already used a type of time-turner method in GoF 
> when they made the bet with Bagman. (They new the exact outcome of the 
> International Quidditch game)
>

I see no need to assume that the twins used a time turner here.
Apparently such devices are rare and require special permission. All
the twins needed to do was to use their considerable intelligence in
looking at two facts in relation to the nature of the game: The Irish
had the best *team* in the world, but Bulgaria had the best Seeker.
Note that *Ron* wore a hat and rosette supporting Ireland but bought a
miniature figure of Krum. The twins took this awareness a bit farther.
It was very likely that Krum would outmaneuver the Irish seeker and
catch the Snitch, but the Snitch is hard to spot and usually is not
caught until well into the game. The excellent Irish team would have
plenty of time to score while Viktor was either watching for the
Snitch or diverting the other seeker with feints. It really wasn't
that hard to figure out. No need for a time turner; just good betting
instincts and a knowledge of quidditch.

Carol




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Mon Mar 29 08:48:52 2004
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 00:48:52 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] CHAPTER DISCUSSION:  Chapter 15 (The Hogwarts High Inquisitor)
In-Reply-To: <c48bh5+u8ur@eGroups.com>
References: <c48bh5+u8ur@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <69335950.20040329004852@mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94347


Sunday, March 28, 2004, 9:17:25 PM, elfundeb2 wrote:

e> 1.  According to the Daily Prophet, the High Inquisitor position was 
e> the result of "surprise legislation" passed by the Ministry on a 
e> Sunday night.  Who passed that legislation?  A legislative body?  If 
e> so, who is it composed of?  How is it chosen?  Why wasn't it 
e> mentioned by name?

JKR has been *very* vague about the structure of Wizard government,
and I have to wonder if she in fact knows little about how
representative democracy works (Ministries / Government Departments
don't "pass legislation" -- Parliament / Congress does), or if she
simply hasn't given it enough importance in her grand scheme to
think it through.

e> 5. What did Umbridge hoped to achieve through the inspections?  Has 
e> she targeted certain professors (we learn that Flitwick's was "no 
e> big deal")?  Does she have a hidden agenda beyond discrediting 
e> Dumbledore, and if so, what is it?  Is JKR using Umbridge to lampoon 
e> government interference in education?

I think DU is clearly targeting teachers she suspects of being part of
Dumbledore's "conspiracy": McGonnegal, Snape, Hagrid.  (In the case of
Hagrid, she has the additional motivation that he's a "half-breed").
Only Trelawney she seems to genuinely believe to be incompetent,
but is there something about the Prophecy behind it too...?

e> 6. How can Umbridge possibly have enough time to inspect so many 
e> classes *and* teach all the DADA classes as well?

A Time-Turner?

e> 7. Did you guess after reading Trelawney's inspection that 
e> Trelawney's hiring had to do with her first correct predicion?

I've suspected this since the end of PoA!  She seems like such a
phony for the most part, but if Dumbledore hired her because he knew
of a previous genuine prediction...

e> 8. What, if anything, does the revelation of McGonagall's December 
e> starting date at Hogwarts signify?  Is this a clue to a significant 
e> backstory, or a red herring?

I've always wondered -- Were there any Transfiguration teachers
between Dumbledore and McGonnegal?

e> 10. What do you think motivated Hermione to ask Harry to teach 
e> DADA?  Did you find this to be a logical progression of her 
e> character development?  Were you surprised?  What about her attempt 
e> to gain courage by saying Voldemort's name aloud?  

Deep down, in her heart of hearts, she has always valued "friendship
and bravery" (Harry) over "books and cleverness" (her self-perception).
This, I believe, is why the Hat ultimately put her in Gryffindor
rather than Ravenclaw.

-- 
Dave




From delwynmarch at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 10:18:30 2004
From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 10:18:30 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Harry=92s_anger:_neither_teen_angst_nor_channeling_Voldemort?=
In-Reply-To: <c44t10+h6g8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c48t5m+c6of@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94348

Neri wrote:
> I know that many list members, me included, have felt uneasy about 
> Harry's anger in OotP. It wasn't in character, and made him less 
> likeable than he is in the previous books.

Del :
I disagree. What made me uneasy in OoP is that this anger was *very 
much* in character, and it was scary. This angry Harry was one of 
the possible Harrys I'd envisioned when reading the previous books, 
but it most definitely wasn't the one I wanted to see happening. So 
when I saw the way Harry was turning, I became very upset, but not 
so surprised after all.

Neri :
> Sure, Harry has many reasons for anger in OotP, and he is 15 and 
> has the hormone surge (thought I find it a terrible clich?, and 
> somehow Ron and Hermione manage to avoid the same fate). But isn't 
> it obvious that Harry's anger, or at least the worst of it, is 
> simply channeling LV's emotions through the scar link?

Del :
I don't like the idea of attributing the worst of Harry's feelings 
to LV. In my idea, it's a bit like pretending that Harry would be 
perfect if only there wasn't LV. He wouldn't, he isn't.

Neri : 
> The telling part is that Harry is not just angry in OotP, he 
> actually *enjoys* his friends' hurt. This is definitely not Harry. 
> Our Harry doesn't have a sadistic streak in him. Well, perhaps 
> towards Dudley in moments of discord, or towards Snape, but 
> certainly not towards Ron and Hermione.

Del :
You say it yourself : Harry *does* have a sadistic streak (as many 
people do, including me). Who he applies that streak to isn't 
relevant. We don't excuse Vernon and Petunia for being sadistic only 
to Harry and not Dudley, do we ? So I see no reason for excusing 
Harry for being sadistic only to Snape or Dudley. He has a sadistic 
streak and he has to deal with it, period.

Neri :
> Yet JKR has made a point of describing Harry "not sorry at all" or 
> even actually taking pleasure in hurting his friends at least four 
> times in OotP (and I might have missed more cases). The quotes are 
> below for those who want to dwell on the details. Note 
> especially "deep satisfaction" and "vindictive pleasure". Note 
> also the words indicating the unexplained suddenness of the anger 
> feelings: "for a split second", "nasty impulse", "anger that had 
> just flared so unexpectedly". This is reminiscent of the sudden 
> surges of hatred that Harry feels towards DD in two different 
> cases, which we know for sure are LV channeling.

Del :
All throughout the series, Harry struck me as not being always so 
kind, especially with his friends. He's kind with them when they 
don't bother him too much, but he can get awfully nasty when they 
get on his nerves.
In PoA, he doesn't mind being mad at Hermione for *weeks* over a 
stupid broomstick matter ! I've been mad at my friends, it can last 
a few days, but there's no way anger will last for weeks unless you 
keep rekindling it. Harry *refused* to forgive Hermione all that 
time. But what struck me at the time is that he consistently refused 
to consider the hurt he was causing her. Even Hagrid told him, but 
still he refused to relent. This was the first time I knew for sure 
that something like Angry!Harry could very well happen later.
Then in GoF, he repeats it all with Ron. He refuses point-blank to 
put himself in Ron's shoes for just half-a-second, he refuses to 
consider the hurt Ron is feeling.
Actually I even remember a time in GoF when Harry *hates* Ron : when 
Harry is talking with Sirius in Gryffindor Tower's fire, and Ron 
arrives, forcing them to cut the conversation short. There, for a 
brief moment, Harry is described as hating everything in Ron, 
including his several inches of bare ankles showing beneath his too-
short pyjamas. This really struck me.

Neri :
> Each of these small episodes by itself could have been only teen 
> angst, but taken together they are telling. Of course, we see 
> Harry having surges of anger towards many other people in OotP, 
> but it is especially out-of-character when it is directed towards 
> his close friends.

Del :
For me, those episodes are not at all out of character, they are in 
fact very much in character. But they are not at all teen angst ! 
They are *natural* anger ! Let me explain.
I've always been a pretty kind person, even as a kid. The word that 
most people use to describe me is "nice". My husband has always been 
amazed by my capacity of NOT lashing out to others most of the time 
when I'm angry. But there's a whole personal history behind that. As 
a kid, I was very nervous, and I quickly learned to master myself 
and not be too hot-blooded, because it was terribly upsetting for 
me. I repressed my emotions, believing they would cease to exist if 
I ignore them. (I wanted to become like a Vulcan, and I meant it !) 
But of course they didn't, they only accumulated, and sometimes 
things would get too much, and I would become terribly angry. It was 
rare, but quite violent. Then one day I destroyed a possession of 
mine I valued extremely, in one of those fits of rage. And it scared 
me to death ! The thought crossed my mind, clear and strong : "if I 
don't learn to master my anger, I'll kill someone someday". It 
wasn't a rhetoric figure, I truly meant it : I knew I could 
knowingly, willingly, kill someone during one of those fits of 
anger, because my anger was so much out of control. I was 9 at the 
time, but I purposely, single-handedly turned my life around right 
that moment, and swore I would learn to deal with my anger and my 
bad feelings, not just repress them. At the time, I thought I could 
in the end manage to erase those feelings. But now I'm 30, and I 
know I probably will never be able to do that. Each time I get into 
a new situation, I have to learn new ways to deal with the angry 
feelings that situation can create in me. I have to learn new coping 
methods, specific to that situation. But thankfully, because I know 
what I'm capable of, I can always avoid giving in to truly horrible 
actions : I know deep inside I could do really bad things if I let 
my anger rage completely out of control, which somehow helps me 
prevent it, because I don't deny it. Knowledge can truly be 
empowering in some situations : I know myself, I realise and admit 
the way I'm (unfortunately) functioning, so I can make conscious and 
even not-so-conscious decisions to stop that behaviour.
But Harry hasn't got there yet : he doesn't realise yet where giving 
in to his anger can lead him. So when I read about Harry's fits of 
anger in the first 4 books, when I read of his enduring resentment, 
when I saw him wallow in hate towards Snape or LV, I knew where 
things could be going. I didn't think JKR would dare doing it 
though. It takes guts to write such things. But she did it, and I 
applaud her. She wrote a very human character, who has a very 
difficult life, who was never taught how or why he should deal with 
his feelings, who's been forced to repress all his anger, hurt and 
resentment for years, and who is finally cracking up and coming to 
terms with his demons inside. This rings very true to me. Even down 
to the attempted Cruciatus Curse on Bellatrix : that's the kind of 
things I would have done when I got so angry as a kid (but because 
now I know I *could* do it, somehow this knowledge would make me 
strong enough to *choose* NOT to do it !)
Harry has a problem with anger, there's nothing "bad" or "wrong" 
with that, but he will have to learn to deal with it. And that's why 
the idea that love will be his ultimate weapon is plausible to me : 
because in order to control my anger, I had to develop my love and 
compassion. 

Del, who is NOT trying to pause as a saint :-) !




From jujupoet29 at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 29 10:28:25 2004
From: jujupoet29 at hotmail.com (sienna291973)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 10:28:25 -0000
Subject: Harry's disposition
In-Reply-To: <20040329031232.56268.qmail@web21503.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c48to9+ee4j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94349

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ashley Masley 
<ashleyjax2 at y...> wrote:
> Harry acts very different in book five from the Harry we normally 
know in the past books, yes. But it is just hormones.  He will 
eventually become the real, calm Harry that Ron and hermione like.  
I also really hope that Hermione never acts like that because it 
will be ten times worse since she is a young women hanging out with 
two guys that sometimes do "Have the emotional range of a 
teaspoon."  

Hi Ashley, I agree with everything here except that Harry sometimes 
has the 'emotional range of a teaspoon'.  He's fairly naturally 
clueless when it comes to girls but I think he's demonstrated that 
his emotional range is so enormous that he often doesn't know 
whether he's coming or going.

Sienna
Who didn't really have much of a point to make but thought she'd let 
everyone know how much she really loves Harry. :)




From hickengruendler at yahoo.de  Mon Mar 29 11:13:56 2004
From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 11:13:56 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION:  Chapter 15 (The Hogwarts High Inquisitor)
In-Reply-To: <c48bh5+u8ur@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c490dk+t5h7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94350

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "elfundeb2" <elfundeb at c...> 
wrote:
   
> 2. The Daily Prophet quotes Percy Wesley extensively.  How 
> enthusiastic do you think his support really is?  Does he honestly 
> believe what he says, is he doing it to get ahead of the Ministry, 
> or does he really think he owes unquestioning obedience to his 
> superiors?  How does the Percy we see here square with the Percy we 
> saw in PS/SS who admired Dumbledore's brilliance?

I am not sure. I think he is probably as deluded and foolish as Fudge 
and believes, or at least wants to believe, that the ministry is 
right. I don't think it's just brown-nosing, but I can't say I'm 
absolutely sure. I think he will come around anyway.
   
> 4. Does it seem out of character for the grade-obsessed Hermione to 
> be quizzing Fred and George (of all people) about OWL grades?  Why 
> didn't she research this like she researches everything else?  Do 
> you think JKR did this purposefully?  If so, why?

She probably did it to tell us about the grades. Although I agree 
that Hermione normally should have already known this. It would have 
made more sense if Harry had asked.
> 
> 5. What did Umbridge hoped to achieve through the inspections?  Has 
> she targeted certain professors (we learn that Flitwick's was "no 
> big deal")?  Does she have a hidden agenda beyond discrediting 
> Dumbledore, and if so, what is it?  Is JKR using Umbridge to 
lampoon 
> government interference in education?

I think she targeted those teachers, whom she believe were close to 
Dumbledore. I think Trelawney's biggest mistake during the inspection 
was, that she told Umbridge, that she was hired by Dumbledore. From 
this moment on Umbridge probably wanted to get rid of her, and she is 
a much easier target and a much worse teacher, than, for example, 
McGonagall. In Hagrid's case it's also because of the half-human 
factor.
> 
> 6. How can Umbridge possibly have enough time to inspect so many 
> classes *and* teach all the DADA classes as well?

She goes in her DADA class and says: "Read chapter 3/4/5 whatever, I 
have something else to do." Of course the kids would probably never 
read, but I think Umbridge can live with it, as long as they don't 
train practical DADA. But I think the problem only really exists, 
when she inspected Trelawney and Hagrid regularly. In the weeks when 
she inspected the teachers for the first time, she probably fitted 
the inspections to her timetable.
> 
> 7. Did you guess after reading Trelawney's inspection that 
> Trelawney's hiring had to do with her first correct predicion?  And 
> did anyone mark the fact that Trelawney's dire prediction for 
> Umbridge came true in the Forbidden Forest?

a) No, I didn't guess it, but I really think I should, because it 
seems completely logical right now. Why else would Dumbledore have 
hired for her?

b) Yes, I did. I realized it the moment the dark Bane attacked 
Umbridge. Trelawney's fake predictions mostly come true. I think JKR 
uses them as foreshadowing.  
> 
> 8. What, if anything, does the revelation of McGonagall's December 
> starting date at Hogwarts signify?  Is this a clue to a significant 
> backstory, or a red herring?

I don't know, but I hope it has some significance, because I would 
love to learn more about McGonagall.
> 
> 9. Compare Harry's reaction to the suggestion that he teach DADA to 
> the others, to Harry's thoughts upon learning that Ron had been 
> selected prefect.  What do the differences tell us, if anything, 
> about Harry's development or his state of mind?  Has anything 
> changed?

When Ron was made prefect, Harry thought it was unfair, because he 
did all these things to defeat Voldemort. Now he admits, that he had 
a lot of help.

Hickengruendler




From belijako at online.no  Mon Mar 29 11:17:57 2004
From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 11:17:57 -0000
Subject: Snape's walking pattern Was: Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c4868n+g165@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c490l5+g1cd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94351

Carol wrote:
Actually, the adult Snape has never been described as "twitchy" and he
tends to sweep gracefully out of every room he enters (aided, of
course, by that long black cloak)

Berit replies:

Ah, sorry! My mistake; wrong choice of words. True, Snape has not 
been described as walking in a "twitching" manner as an adult. The 
word I should have used is "prowling" (if I remember correctly). In 
the scene in PS where Harry spots Snape on his way to the forest to 
have a chat with Quirrell, Harry says he recognised Snape by 
his "prowling" walk.

According to www.merriam-webster.com , the verb "prowl" means "to 
move about or wander stealthily in or as in search of prey/to roam 
over in a predatory manner." I'm not saying the sight of a predator 
moving stealthily after its prey is not a picture of elegance and 
power (it certainly is), but "prowling" is not the word I would have 
used to describe a human being moving gracefully and elegant with his 
cloak swishing impressively around his stately body... An animal on 
the prowl tends to crouch low, keeping its head down while it moves 
stealthily. I for one wouldn't choose the word "prowling" to describe 
the movements of an elegant and graceful human being keeping his body 
proud and erect. Can you imagine the upper class Lucius Malfoy or the 
dignified Dumbledore walking in a "prowling" manner? Nor can I.

The one doesn't necessarily exclude the other, but "prowling" to me 
adds an extra dimension to Snape's walking patterns! He's not JUST 
elegant and impressive; there's still some leftovers from his 
childhood in the way he walks. This fits nicely with the drawing 
Rowling has made of him: Not very Alan Rickmannish I'm afraid; he 
looks more hunched up and "twitchy" than graceful and elegant... Yes, 
his walk has an aura of elegance and power in the way he is described 
in the books, no doubt, but there's still the prowl which he haven't 
been able to get rid of... And canon suggests it is a usual way for 
him to move around, because it's his *walk* in that scene that makes 
Harry recognise him! If he saved the "prowling" for special occasions 
only, then Harry wouldn't have been able to recognise him for 
it. "Prowling" seems to be very snapish...

Berit
http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html




From belijako at online.no  Mon Mar 29 11:21:14 2004
From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 11:21:14 -0000
Subject: was Lupin'sSnape's resentment/ nowSnape and Prophesy
In-Reply-To: <05eb01c4150c$8ccc3300$75d6f943@hppav>
Message-ID: <c490ra+boah@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94352

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kimberly" <ekrbdg at m...> wrote:
> Potioncat:
> >I don't believe for a moment this hasn't come up before, but I'll 
> >ask...Isn't it a coincidence that the two students we see Snape 
> >really pick on are the two who seem be in the prophesy?
> 
> 
> (Kimberly)
> Good point.    From what I've seen, he picks on Hermione just as 
much though.    I'm sure it could very well be because she's such 
good friends with Harry or the fact that she's of Muggle descent.

Berit replies:

There's one difference between Snape's picking on Hermione and his 
picking on Neville and Harry, though: Hermione is sticking her nose 
out, daring to act the "know-it-all". That can't be said about Harry 
or Neville, especially not Neville...

Berit
http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Mar 29 12:25:17 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 12:25:17 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore's bad decision
Message-ID: <c494jd+phv9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94353

> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67"
> <justcarol67 at y...> wrote:
> > I (Carol) wrote:
> > <snip> I do know that I'm just assuming, but given Sirius's 
violent
> > > > temper and general rashness, his attempt to murder Severus 
when
> > they were both sixteen,....
>
>
> Potioncat:
> Well, it seems there are very few people who believe Serius had 
evil
> intentions when he told Snape how to get past the tree...The three
> who come to mind are: Snape, Carol and Potioncat.
>
>
Special note by Potioncat...I actually sent this post several days 
ago. I couldn't decide whether to send it to Carol off group or the 
group and I guess I confused my owl because it went to the List 
Elves.

Two of them signed in with their opinions!  And a recommedation to 
check out the Fantastic Posts under Serius. There is a section there 
about the prank. Thanks, List Elves!

Potioncat who is really surprised there wasn't a greater reaction to 
Carol's post!






From vmonte at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 12:53:15 2004
From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 12:53:15 -0000
Subject: Evaluating Snape (was: Re: Lupin's resentment )
In-Reply-To: <20040329031923.42922.qmail@web21510.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c4967r+ied3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94354

AShley wrote:
Maybe Hermione does know something.  She is very secretive about 
those types of things.  IF Snape is a vampire and Hermione does know 
then maybe she waiting for more proof before telling Ron and harry.  
She might not even tell them at all though because she could be 
afraid that they might take it the wrong way and go off telling the 
whole school.Then if Snape found out that it was her that figured out 
that he was a vampire he would do something to her or Gryffindor 
House to make them pay.  He would not be very happy...that for sure.


vmonte responds:  

>From JK Rowling World Book Day Chat, 3/4/2004

Megan: Is there a link between Snape and vampires?
JK Rowling replies -> Erm... I don't think so.


vmonte






From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Mar 29 13:04:41 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 13:04:41 -0000
Subject: DADA post question
In-Reply-To: <c48biu+9id7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c496t9+b96b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94355


> Carol wrote:
> But back to DADA--DD hires total incompetents rather than giving 
the 
> position to McGonagall, Snape, or Flitwick. We don't know of 
> anything the students learned from Quirrell; all they learned from 
> Lockhart was not to release Cornish Pixies into a classroom and 
how 
> *not* to defend yourself in a duel; and even Lupin only taught 
them 
> how to deal with a few minor Dark beings or creatures or however 
you 
> would classify hinkypunks and boggarts.
snip
> 
> Owlery2003 comments:
> Give Lupin and Moody/Crouch their due - they at least made an 
effort 
> to provide instruction/lessons that would be useful.
snip 
 
> Bookworm:
> Somewhere in PS/SS, someone (Hagrid, IIRC) said that Quirrell had 
> been on sabbatical. That tells me he was in the position of DADA 
> instructor for more that just one year, and that he cared enough 
> about his field to try to improve his skills/experience.
snip 
 Even Crouch!Moody was a 
> competent instructor even if he was the villain.  Remember that 
Fred 
> and George were excited about his class, and the students learned 
> about the dangerous spells they might have to defend against in 
the 
> future.

snip 
> So 3 of the 5 DADA instructors we have met were basically 
competent.  
> Also, we know that Snape has requested the job (Does he really 
want 
> it? 


Potioncat:
Just a question to think about as I go through the comments above, 
is it "Defence Against the Dark" Arts (That is defensive arts 
against the dark) or is it Defence Against the "Dark Arts." I think 
it is the former.

A big part of DADA does seem to be Magical Pest Control.  (Sort of 
the counterpart to CoMC) We see see Lockhart, Lupin and Snape 
address this issue.(pixies, boggarts and vampires)  Crouch/Moody is 
the only one who teaches them how to defend themselves from dark 
attacks, but that may be determined by year rather than by teacher. 
(Snape did too, via Lockhart, does that count?) And I just realized 
that Snape managed to teach DADA twice, didn't he?

We were also told that Quirrell was acting very differenly after he 
came back from sabbatical. So we don't know what he was like before.

It really is hard to understand what DD's attitude about DADA is.  
Some strong teachers, some weak teachers. As far as Umbridge goes:
I think DD may have conveniently not found a DADA teacher as a way 
of having the MoM imposed oversight he expected, right where he 
could watch it.

Potionat 






From carolynwhite2 at aol.com  Mon Mar 29 13:13:15 2004
From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 13:13:15 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION:  Chapter 15 (The Hogwarts High Inquisitor)
In-Reply-To: <69335950.20040329004852@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <c497db+nnp4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94356

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> 
wrote:
> 
> Sunday, March 28, 2004, 9:17:25 PM, elfundeb2 wrote:
> 
1.  According to the Daily Prophet, the High Inquisitor position was 
the result of "surprise legislation" passed by the Ministry on a 
Sunday night.  Who passed that legislation?  A legislative body?  If 
so, who is it composed of?  How is it chosen?  Why wasn't it 
mentioned by name?

> (Dave Hardenbrook replied):
> JKR has been *very* vague about the structure of Wizard government,
> and I have to wonder if she in fact knows little about how
> representative democracy works (Ministries / Government Departments
> don't "pass legislation" -- Parliament / Congress does), or if she
> simply hasn't given it enough importance in her grand scheme to
> think it through.
> 
Carolyn:
I don't think JKR is in the least vague about the UK parliamentary 
process - in the latest chat one of the things she said 'I'd like to 
be Tony Blair for an hour. I'd call a press conference and announce 
all the policies I'd like to implement'. She knows they can't just 
happen. She was also a teacher, and I think she would have very 
strong views on government interference in education. 

I think her whole point is to highlight how poor the democratic 
process is in the WW.




From ruminalus_ficus at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 07:24:59 2004
From: ruminalus_ficus at yahoo.com (Andrew)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 07:24:59 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION:  Chapter 15 (The Hogwarts High Inquisitor)
In-Reply-To: <c48bh5+u8ur@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c48j0b+8qk0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94357

elfundeb2 wrote:
> Questions
> 
> 1.  According to the Daily Prophet, the High Inquisitor position 
> was the result of "surprise legislation" passed by the Ministry on 
> a Sunday night.  Who passed that legislation?  A legislative body?  
> If so, who is it composed of?  How is it chosen?  Why wasn't it 
> mentioned by name?

As a forewarning, my copy of OotP is 700 miles away, so if I say 
anything stupid...that's my excuse :)

My take on the school reforms that are enacted throughout the year is 
that they are analogous to executive orders: ie, they come directly 
from Fudge without the input of any kind of legislative body.  
Likewise, anything in OotP that is labelled as ministry-approved 
should probably be read as 'Fudge-approved'.  The fact that these 
things are called "Educational *Decrees" (or whatever they were 
called) is very telling in this regard (since a decree is basically 
an executive order that has the force of law).

> 2. The Daily Prophet quotes Percy Wesley extensively.  How 
> enthusiastic do you think his support really is?  Does he honestly 
> believe what he says, is he doing it to get ahead of the Ministry, 
> or does he really think he owes unquestioning obedience to his 
> superiors?  How does the Percy we see here square with the Percy we 
> saw in PS/SS who admired Dumbledore's brilliance?

I think Percy is a prime example of a person who, in spite of his 
high intelligence, isn't wise enough or experienced enough to 
recognize corruption or form his own opinions and loyalties.  His 
take is that the actions of the Ministry are right because the 
Ministry is the Ministry.  He doesn't seem to realize that the 
government can be wrong.

> 3. What, if anything, do the respective grades that Snape awarded
> to the Trio and to Draco (whose behavior seems to imply a passing 
> grade) tell us about Snape's teaching methods?  His motivational 
> skills?   Does he have a hidden motive?  If so, what?

I don't know that it says anything about Snape's teaching methods or 
motivational skills.  If he has any motive, it is probably to make 
the students panic and study harder to bring up their performance for 
the real test.  I think he probably graded on the hard side of the 
O.W.L standard.  I wonder how Snape marks up the papers as he grades 
them.  My perception of him as a teacher in general would probably be 
different if there was some mention of a paper being returned covered 
in red ink.

> 4. Does it seem out of character for the grade-obsessed Hermione to 
> be quizzing Fred and George (of all people) about OWL grades?  Why 
> didn't she research this like she researches everything else?  Do 
> you think JKR did this purposefully?  If so, why?

I think this was probably just a bit of exposition on JKR's part.  If 
Hermione already knew about the grades (which I'm sure she would), 
she might just be trying to get a feel for what it takes to get 
an 'O' or something like that: how difficult it is.

> 5. What did Umbridge hoped to achieve through the inspections?  Has 
> she targeted certain professors (we learn that Flitwick's was "no 
> big deal")?  Does she have a hidden agenda beyond discrediting 
> Dumbledore, and if so, what is it?  Is JKR using Umbridge to 
> lampoon government interference in education?

It's possible that JKR had some intention to satirize government 
interference in education, but I don't think that is very likely.  
These are books meant for entertainment and the joy of reading, not 
for political commentary.  It would be a disservice to the story to 
try to infuse it with the author's political agenda.

I think Umbridge was probably just trying to find out who was closest 
to Dumbledore, and to find ways to replace those whom he was 
responsible for hiring.  Umbridge wants complete control over the 
school, and she knows that the other teachers don't particularly like 
the changes she is instituting.
 
> 6. How can Umbridge possibly have enough time to inspect so many 
> classes *and* teach all the DADA classes as well?

Teach?  All she has to do is write on the board "Read chapter X.  No 
talking." 

> 7. Did you guess after reading Trelawney's inspection that 
> Trelawney's hiring had to do with her first correct predicion?  And 
> did anyone mark the fact that Trelawney's dire prediction for 
> Umbridge came true in the Forbidden Forest?

It is kind of ironic, though, isn't it?  That's what you get for 
forcing the seer.

> 8. What, if anything, does the revelation of McGonagall's December 
> starting date at Hogwarts signify?  Is this a clue to a significant 
> backstory, or a red herring?

It probably just means that Dippet retired/kicked-the-bucket in 
November and they needed a new transfiguration teacher when 
Dumbledore was promoted.

> 9. Compare Harry's reaction to the suggestion that he teach DADA to 
> the others, to Harry's thoughts upon learning that Ron had been 
> selected prefect.  What do the differences tell us, if anything, 
> about Harry's development or his state of mind?  Has anything 
> changed?

Bah!  I need my book.  I do see a lot of similirity between these 
events, though.  When Ron is made prefect, Harry's reaction is: 'Why 
am I less qualified?'  Later, when they ask him to coach them in 
DADA, his reaction is: 'I'm not as qualified as you think I am.'  
Harry has never really been asked to be a leader before in this 
sense.  It's one thing to say that he could be prefect as well as Ron 
when Ron is holding the badge than it is to pick the badge up for 
himself.  There is also, of course, the added complication that being 
a prefect is a lot less likely to get you expelled than being the 
leader of an illegal DADA group, especially when the people in 
authority are already looking for an excuse to throw the book at you.

> 10. What do you think motivated Hermione to ask Harry to teach 
> DADA?  Did you find this to be a logical progression of her 
> character development?  Were you surprised?  What about her attempt 
> to gain courage by saying Voldemort's name aloud?  

This, I think, is one of the most interesting parts of the book.  
It's too bad I don't have my book at the moment to read it again. :)  
If I remember correctly, Ron and Hermione approach Harry together and 
suggest this as if it's something they've been thinking about for a 
while.  It's very calculated.  On one hand, they know that Harry is 
clearly the most talented and experienced student at DADA and that he 
is really the only one who can help them make up for their years of 
spotty DADA lessons.

I think it is consistent with Hermione's character for her to realize 
before Ron and even Harry that there is something extraordinary about 
his abilities.  She sees that he has survived situations every year 
that could easily be a fully trained wizard's worst nightmare, and I 
think this frightens her to no end.  Actually, in many places, I read 
Hermione as being afraid of Harry or what he might do.  I think her 
attempt at saying Voldemort's name was really an attempt to show 
Harry that what they are really asking him to do is to teach them to 
be as brave as he is (terrible sentence).

Maybe I'll expound on this a little bit tomorrow (erm..today, 
actually), but I have class in 5? hrs and need sle.....<snore>

-RF





From LadySawall at aol.com  Mon Mar 29 08:29:32 2004
From: LadySawall at aol.com (Jo Ann)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 08:29:32 -0000
Subject: Snape, the "Deeply Horrible Person"
In-Reply-To: <c4853v+rmnr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c48mpc+bnva@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94358

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" 
<susiequsie23 at s...> wrote:

> Jen wrote:
> > A: It's very hard to choose. It's fun to write about Snape 
because he's a deeply horrible person.  [JKR interview]

> > This seems like a *very* strong negative characterization to me. 
> > It also doesn't seem particulary consistent with the canon we 
have so far. Snape is presented as complex, bitter, angry, etc. But 
> > I've never seen his behavior as "deeply horrible" in the way of, 
> > say, LV's behavior.
> > 
> > Since we only know what JKR has given us so far, but she carries 
> > with her the full knowledge of each character's past and future 
> > actions, I tend to think of these interview comments as either 
> > subtle slip-ups or JKR subtly manipulating the way we see a 
> > character (for the future *Bang* value!).
> > 
> 
> Siriusly Snapey Susan:

> I keep thinking back to a report made [I believe in Newsweek] 
before 
> the SS movie came out, about how JKR had said some things to Alan 
> Rickman which no one else knew so far and which helped him in his 
> portrayal of Snape.  <SNIP> Yet, would most people 
> agree with me that Rickman's Snape has seemed *less* "deeply 
> horrible" than the written Snape?  I wonder what that means, then?

I recall someone mentioned another JKR interview (apologies, I can't 
remember the details of who/when) in which she was asked whether 
Snape might ever fall in love, and was puzzled by the question, 
asking why anyone would *want* to be loved by him.

This struck me as a terribly sad question to ask about anyone (even a 
fictional character.)  It also seemed to me exactly the kind of 
question that a teenage boy like Harry might ask--and, as well, 
didn't really answer the interviewer's question.  It was as though 
she was trying to avoid the issue of whether Snape is capable of 
loving someone, steering things back to how other people feel about 
*him.*

Now please bear with me from here on, because I'm finding it very 
difficult to express what I'm thinking in clear and concise terms...

Based on all of the preceding, I can't help but wonder whether JKR is 
intentionally biased against Snape, interpreting her own facts about 
him in the worst possible light, even where it might be possible to 
do otherwise--because she is writing the series entirely from Harry's 
POV, and Harry loathes Snape.  Would she be sabotaging her own 
ability to see through Harry's eyes, if she got too attached to a 
character that he hates?

Whether we're talking about one of us reading the books, or Alan 
Rickman trying to portray him in a movie, we're free to take any fact 
that JKR supplies us with and put whatever spin on it we want to.  
We're third parties, as neutral or as biased as we choose to be.  I 
realize I could absolutely be wrong, but I don't think that JKR 
herself really has that luxury.

So it seems to me entirely possible that JKR writes (or talks to 
Rickman) with the conviction that Snape is a horrible person, and 
because that fact is self-evident to her, she interprets her own 
words as supporting it...whereas that fact comes across as clear to 
some of us, but not to others, because for whatever reason we didn't 
pick up the "horrible" impression from the beginning.

On another tangent, I also wonder whether the phrase "deeply 
horrible" is in reference only to Snape's personality, or to his 
story as a whole...not only his thoughts and actions, but also 
perhaps the things that have happened to him?

Oh, and while I'm on the subject, a question.  There seems to be some 
debate as to just how ugly (or not) the man actually is--Mr. 
Rickman's influence aside--and I can't remember: has the word "ugly" 
ever actually been used canonically to describe Snape?  Maybe another 
instance of something JKR considers so self-evident she doesn't come 
right out and say it, thus leaving us all sorts of room for 
debate?  :)

Sorry for the ramble, I've been chewing over this stuff for some time 
now...

J. Spencer

...who likes Severus very much, and thinks he is trying hard to be a 
good guy, but has a sad feeling he may not have it in him.





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Mar 29 13:27:22 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 13:27:22 -0000
Subject: Evaluating Snape (was: Re: Lupin's resentment )
In-Reply-To: <20040329031923.42922.qmail@web21510.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c4987q+3god@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94359

Ashley wrote:
> I fully agree with you Joe.  Maybe Hermione does know something.  
She is very secretive about those types of things.  IF Snape is a 
vampire and Hermione does know then maybe she waiting for more proof 
before telling Ron and harry.  She might not even tell them at all 
though because she could be afraid that they might take it the wrong 
way and go off telling the whole school.Then if Snape found out that 
it was her that figured out that he was a vampire he would do 
something to her or Gryffindor House to make them pay.  He would not 
be very happy...that for sure.
> 
>  

Potioncat:
I don't think Hermione is keeping anything back out of fear.  But 
she does seem to know something.  Since she is supportive of Snape, 
I would think it might have something to do with DD's trust.  Or 
maybe she really knows what JKR meant by "Erm, no connections to 
vampires."  (Paraphrased)




From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Mon Mar 29 14:08:45 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 29 Mar 2004 16:08:45 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron=DD?/Twins=DDx2
Message-ID: <20040329140845.1AE8B30E5A7@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 94360

Kathy:
> I honestly don?t see any more of a problem with this Twins/DD theory than
> the Ron/DD theory, both scenarios? are equally questionable. I do favor
> this one because of the twin?s greater capabilities.

Twins theory solves Aberforth problem. Some time ago I am sorry I forgot who proposed Bill=Aberforth, which to my surprise din't cause any objections. I wasn't expecting anybody to protest that Bill is briliant and well educated, whereas Aberforth may not be fully literate. But I was surprised that no female fan of "cool" Weasley didn't protest against changing this girl-magnet into the goat-magnet! :-D

As briliant and creative the twins  are, I wouldn't be surprised if one chose a calm life of the bartender. Especially that he'd have his living paid by the profits from Zonko's they established 120 years ago, when they went back in time. 
And goats? If one can be crazy enough to became a Headmaster of a school with a 1000 kids - goats seem really innocent pastime in comparison.

Cheers, Viridis
________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!



From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 14:21:30 2004
From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 14:21:30 -0000
Subject: Evaluating Snape (was: Re: Lupin's resentment )
In-Reply-To: <c4967r+ied3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c49bda+7m54@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94361

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" <vmonte at y...> wrote:

> From JK Rowling World Book Day Chat, 3/4/2004
> 
> Megan: Is there a link between Snape and vampires?
> JK Rowling replies -> Erm... I don't think so.

That sounds like it's SUPPOSED to be construed as a "no" but in 
fact, it's not. (It's not a yes, either.) In fact that non-answer, 
IMO, is just a way to address the question in a vague way.

It IS, of course, possible that Snape might be an (unregistered) 
Animagus whose form is that of a bat.

-Joe in SoFla, who marvels at JKR's facility for hedging




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Mar 29 14:26:25 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 14:26:25 -0000
Subject: Snape, the "Deeply Horrible Person"
In-Reply-To: <c48mpc+bnva@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c49bmh+ikf6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94362

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jo Ann" <LadySawall at a...> 
wrote:
Jo Ann wrote:
> 
> Oh, and while I'm on the subject, a question.  There seems to be 
some 
> debate as to just how ugly (or not) the man actually is--Mr. 
> Rickman's influence aside--and I can't remember: has the 
word "ugly" 
> ever actually been used canonically to describe Snape?  Maybe 
another 
> instance of something JKR considers so self-evident she doesn't 
come 
> right out and say it, thus leaving us all sorts of room for 
> debate?  :)


Potioncat:
Below is a site with an article about Snape that talks about how 
fans "redefine" some of Snape's characteristics.."aquilline" nose, 
for example.  It looks at both canon Snape and Rickman Snape.
But I would have to say, the way JKR describes him, he doesn't sound 
too attractive.  
http://www.flakmag.com/film/snape.html






From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Mar 29 14:31:00 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 14:31:00 -0000
Subject: Evaluating Snape (was: Re: Lupin's resentment )
In-Reply-To: <c49bda+7m54@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c49bv4+77ia@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94363

Joe in SoFla wrote:
> 
> It IS, of course, possible that Snape might be an (unregistered) 
> Animagus whose form is that of a bat.
> 
> -Joe in SoFla, who marvels at JKR's facility for hedging



Potioncat:
Or he could be a registered animagus.  I think it is interesting 
that Hermione mentions 7 (is that the right number?) registered 
Animagi this century...but she doesn't tell us who or what they are. 
She does like to keep things to herself.

Potioncat, who marvels at our abilily to take JKR's comments in 
whatever way we choose.




From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 14:50:01 2004
From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (drjuliehoward)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 14:50:01 -0000
Subject: The Twins' Bet (Was: Ron=DD?)
In-Reply-To: <c48kja+5lmk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c49d2p+t1mm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94364

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" 
<justcarol67 at y...> wrote:
> Kathy King wrote:
>  They had apparently, already used a type of time-turner method in 
GoF 
> > when they made the bet with Bagman. (They new the exact outcome 
of the 
> > International Quidditch game)
> >
> 
> I see no need to assume that the twins used a time turner here.
> Apparently such devices are rare and require special permission. 
All
> the twins needed to do was to use their considerable intelligence 
in
> looking at two facts in relation to the nature of the game: The 
Irish
> had the best *team* in the world, but Bulgaria had the best Seeker.
> Note that *Ron* wore a hat and rosette supporting Ireland but 
bought a
> miniature figure of Krum. The twins took this awareness a bit 
farther.
> It was very likely that Krum would outmaneuver the Irish seeker and
> catch the Snitch, but the Snitch is hard to spot and usually is not
> caught until well into the game. The excellent Irish team would 
have
> plenty of time to score while Viktor was either watching for the
> Snitch or diverting the other seeker with feints. It really wasn't
> that hard to figure out. No need for a time turner; just good 
betting
> instincts and a knowledge of quidditch.
> 
> Carol

Julie here:
I know this was discussed in earlier posts, and while agree with 
Carol that the twins could have used thei knowledge of the game, 
etc., I do not rule anything out with JKR.  I'm not saying that they 
used a time turner, I'm just asking *what* was significant about 
that scene?  Was it that they knew the outcome, thus leading us to 
ask, "How?"  Or, was it that Bagman did not pay up, thus introducing 
another element to his character?  

Julie -- who appreciates the email about the hatrack comment




From steffy07 at aol.com  Mon Mar 29 14:43:36 2004
From: steffy07 at aol.com (steffy07)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 14:43:36 -0000
Subject: Snape tipping off the wrong side (was: Snape outing Harry as Parselmouth)
In-Reply-To: <c4246h+c4dp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c49cmo+raus@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94365

Susan:
> Ah, but consider this.  If most of the teaching staff at Hogwarts 
> *knows*:  a) that DD trusts Snape implicitly; and b) that Snape is 
> POSING as a Voldy Spy while actually being a DD Spy; then they'd 
> *know* not to worry too much about Snape's behavior toward the 
Draco 
> gang, right?  They'd know it's part of his cover w/ Draco, Lucius, 
> etc.  
> 
> Siriusly Snapey Susan


Do you think that the majority of the staff has always known how 
deep Snape's relationship with LV goes?  Granted, we don't know how 
deep it goes...yet.  But I was always under the impression that some 
of them knew a little (MG maybe) but not everybody knowing 
everything.  Why would Flitwick or Madam Hooch need to know ANYTHING 
about it?




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Mar 29 15:01:31 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 15:01:31 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION:  Chapter 15 (The Hogwarts High Inquisitor)
In-Reply-To: <c48bh5+u8ur@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c49dob+3ug5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94366

 
> 2. The Daily Prophet quotes Percy Wesley extensively.  How 
> enthusiastic do you think his support really is?  Does he honestly 
> believe what he says, is he doing it to get ahead of the Ministry, 
> or does he really think he owes unquestioning obedience to his 
> superiors?  How does the Percy we see here square with the Percy 
we 
> saw in PS/SS who admired Dumbledore's brilliance?

Potioncat:  IMHO it is an act.  We know DD wanted spies in the 
ministry and we know Fudge did not trust Arthur.  So Percy, who is 
known for desiring power and authority, and being rule oriented, is 
playing a prat (I did mean to type "part", but that's too funny to 
cut.)
> 
> 3. What, if anything, do the respective grades that Snape awarded 
to 
> the Trio and to Draco (whose behavior seems to imply a passing 
> grade) tell us about Snape's teaching methods?  His motivational 
> skills?   Does he have a hidden motive?  If so, what?

Potioncat:  He wouldn't be the first teacher to grade down as a way 
of motivating(?) scaring(?) students into studying.  If what he 
tells us is correct, his students do well on the OWLS.  I believe he 
takes pride in the "high pass rate" of his students because that 
reflects well on him.  Afterall, he is a Slytherin. 

I think Malfoy does well in his classes and probably was given a 
mark within the same perameters Snape used for the others.
>   
> 4. Does it seem out of character for the grade-obsessed Hermione 
to 
> be quizzing Fred and George (of all people) about OWL grades?  Why 
> didn't she research this like she researches everything else?  Do 
> you think JKR did this purposefully?  If so, why?

Potioncat:  It could also be that the grading is different than both 
Hogwarts method and from the method at her Muggle school.  And I 
doubt books would reflect a student's point of view about the 
grades, which is what she is looking for.
> 
>x> 8. What, if anything, does the revelation of McGonagall's 
December 
> starting date at Hogwarts signify?  Is this a clue to a 
significant 
> backstory, or a red herring?

Potioncat:
No, I do not think it is a red herring.  It was too small to be a 
red herring.  Here are two backstories that come to mind
1.  She replaced Dumbledore who left to fight Grindlewald (please 
excuse spelling, I don't have a book with me.) DD might not have 
returned until he became Headmaster or possibly, he returned sooner.
2. She replaced Prof. R.J. Lupin.  Although I don't know why R.J. 
left or what he/she was teaching.

Potioncat

> 
> NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please 
see
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/67817 and
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/85829 as well 
as
> 
> "OotP Chapter Discussions" at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database




From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 15:04:42 2004
From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (drjuliehoward)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 15:04:42 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Harry=92s_anger:_neither_teen_angst_nor_channeling_Voldemort?=
In-Reply-To: <c48t5m+c6of@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c49dua+mcs6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94367

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Doriane" <delwynmarch at y...> 
wrote:
> Neri wrote:
> > I know that many list members, me included, have felt uneasy 
about 
> > Harry's anger in OotP. It wasn't in character, and made him less 
> > likeable than he is in the previous books.
> 
> Del :
> I disagree. What made me uneasy in OoP is that this anger was 
*very 
> much* in character, and it was scary. 

<Major Snipping -- please UP Thread if needed>

In my profession, one of the primary motivations for people in 
therapy is to manage anger.  I listen to the content of what people 
say to understand their stressors and the context of their lives.  
However, I also am listening for the process, the "stuff" that ties 
is all together.  

One of the reasons people experience anger is as a defense against 
vulnerability.  This seems to be one of the reasons for Harry's 
anger.  He has friends for the first time, and while this is greatly 
beneficial, it is also risky emotionally.  When then don't go the 
way he predicts, his vulnerability increases significantly.  
COnsequently, so does his anger.  After all, it is more palatable 
for Harry to think that a friendship is weaker/over because THEY did 
something to make HIM mad, rather than THEM not wanting his 
friendship.  Anger is powerful, and the more anger he expresses, the 
more it keeps people away, the more he protects his vulnerability.  

While this is a common process for most people, Harry's background 
certainly makes him a prime candidate for feelings such as this.  
His fear of abandonment is there...his anger highlights it.

Certainly, Harry feels anger for reasons other than this, but I 
simply wanted to point out this one aspect of anger and how I see it 
being played out in the series.

Julie -- who sincerely hopes I didn't throw to much psychobabble 
into this post and the List Elves will approve




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Mar 29 15:13:49 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 15:13:49 -0000
Subject: Snape tipping off the wrong side (was: Snape outing Harry as Parselmouth)
In-Reply-To: <c49cmo+raus@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c49efd+3f26@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94368

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "steffy07" <steffy07 at a...> 
wrote:
>  Siriusly Snapey Susan wrote:
> > Ah, but consider this.  If most of the teaching staff at 
Hogwarts 
> > *knows*:  a) that DD trusts Snape implicitly; and b) that Snape 
is 
> > POSING as a Voldy Spy while actually being a DD Spy; then they'd 
> > *know* not to worry too much about Snape's behavior toward the 
> Draco 
> > gang, right?  They'd know it's part of his cover w/ Draco, 
Lucius, 
> > etc.
> 


Steffy wrote: 
> Do you think that the majority of the staff has always known how 
> deep Snape's relationship with LV goes?  


Potioncat:
I so liked SSS's answer (snipped a little here) that I didn't pick 
up on this.  Steffy, you have a good point.  I doubt any of the 
staff knew that Snape was a DE.  (or not until he showed Fudge 
anyway.) If (excuse me, when) he favored Slytherins, it could just 
be considered part of his nasty nature.  

I do wonder what the staff thinks about having so many DE's children 
at the school. 

Potioncat




From ffionmiles at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 29 15:56:20 2004
From: ffionmiles at hotmail.com (ffimiles)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 15:56:20 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Harry=92s_anger:_neither_teen_angst_nor_channeling_Voldemort?=
In-Reply-To: <c49dua+mcs6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c49gv4+kaqg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94369

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "drjuliehoward" 
<drjuliehoward at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Doriane" <delwynmarch at y...> 
> wrote:
> > Neri wrote:
> > > I know that many list members, me included, have felt uneasy 
> about 
> > > Harry's anger in OotP. It wasn't in character, and made him 
less 
> > > likeable than he is in the previous books.
> > 
> this post and the List Elves will approve

Ffi:
Sorry if I'm repeating someone because I've been away fromt he lsit 
for a while, but it's always occurred to me that Harry's 
anger/behaviour had something to do with the  fact that LV was 
getting in to his head.  He was definately effecting him whilst 
asleep, and we can probably assume that LV is quite an angry person 
who has many violent thoughs, and this might have been reflected 
somewhat in Harry.  His anger oftenf alred up without him really 
knowing why - the 'wy' might be because it wasn't his anger.  It just 
came out when he was annoyed about something, when he was less in 
control of himself and therefore less able, without knowing, to 'be' 
himself against LV's intrusions into his mind.

Of course, teenage angst had a lot to do with it, but the sudden 
flares of anger without real explanation does suggst to me the 
effects of having your mind slowly intruded upon by a violent, angry, 
undesirable evil LV.

Just a thought,

Ffi 




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Mar 29 16:03:52 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 16:03:52 -0000
Subject: Snape, the "Deeply Horrible Person"
In-Reply-To: <c473rt+5luh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c49hd8+29p9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94370

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" 
<stevejjen at e...> wrote:
> I'm re-reading JKR interviews and ran across this one at Quick 
> Quotes:
> 
> Q: Who's your favorite character besides Harry Potter?
> 
> A: It's very hard to choose. It's fun to write about Snape 
because  he's a deeply horrible person. Hagrid is someone I'd 
love to meet. 
> 
> 
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/1999/099
9-
> familyeducation-abel.htm
> 
> I'm not a huge Snape fan and this quote has probably been 
analyzed  to death. But the comment caught my eye and I wanted 
to hear other  opinions.
> 
> This seems like a *very* strong negative characterization to 
me. It  also doesn't seem particulary consistent with the canon 
we have so far. Snape is presented as complex, bitter, angry, 
etc.<<

 I'm not Christian so I am a little hesitant to analyze the books for 
their Christian content, but isn't it a basic doctrine that  because 
of original sin we're all "deeply horrible" people  and only God's 
grace and guidance allows us to be good?  I see Snape as a 
parable.  He's accepted his second chance and placed himself 
under Dumbledore's guidance, and so despite his horrible 
nature, he does less evil than he might, and more good than he 
can imagine.

 I think  Snape is cruel for the same reason that Harry was in 
OOP,when he told  Hedwig to peck Ron and Hermione, and felt
satisfied when he saw signs of the damage. Under the anger 
there's a lot of hurt, and hurting others gives him satisfaction 
because it  validates his pain. I think Rowling wants us to 
understand that this is no more  out of character for Harry than it 
is for Snape or any human being--we're all capable of such 
behavior.

Pippin
who hopes she is not misrepresenting the Christian faith and 
apologizes if she has done so





From nkafkafi at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 16:09:42 2004
From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 16:09:42 -0000
Subject: Snape, the "Deeply Horrible Person"
In-Reply-To: <c473rt+5luh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c49ho7+kh1e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94371

Jen:
> I'm re-reading JKR interviews and ran across this one at Quick 
> Quotes:
> 
> Q: Who's your favorite character besides Harry Potter?
> 
> A: It's very hard to choose. It's fun to write about Snape because 
> he's a deeply horrible person. 

<snip>
> This seems like a *very* strong negative characterization to me. 
<snip>

Thanks for this JKR's quote. For me it fits exactly. We have fun 
reading Snape, as JKR has fun writing him, *because* he is a deeply 
horrible person, not in spite of it.

JKR has managed to write a story which is simultaneously a Cinderella 
story and a Cinderella parody. The Dursleys are horrible people too, 
and like Snape they are horrible in an entertaining way, so JKR gets 
them to do a double job for her, or actually a triple job: Firstly, 
we pity and identified with Harry when he is abused by them. 
Secondly, we laugh because the abuse is portrayed in a funny way. 
Thirdly, we cheer when Harry pays them back what they deserve. In the 
case of Snape it gets even better, because unlike the Dursleys he is 
a capable person with some admired qualities and a critical role in 
the war against Evil. So in addition to the three jobs above, we also 
appreciate him and want him to be redeemed. Plus we fall for his 
vampire-like charisma. Amazing. I can't recall any character of any 
author who gets simultaneously so many different and contradicting 
responses from the reader. 

I suspect, however, that JKR did not plan for Snape becoming so 
popular, even more popular than Harry. Part of this popularity is 
maybe because the grown-up sophisticated reader appreciates Snape's 
machiavellian complexity more than Harry's teenage naivet?. But 
popularity as usual has its negative side effects, so there is a 
tendency to read Snape in a more positive light than he is portrayed, 
which IMO is completely counterproductive. I want the deeply horrible 
Snape to be redeemed because he'll help saving the WW, but I don't 
want him to turn out the nobel and wronged hero. This will ruin Snape 
as a character.

Neri 







From steffy07 at aol.com  Mon Mar 29 16:13:49 2004
From: steffy07 at aol.com (steffy07)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 16:13:49 -0000
Subject: Clue that Dumbledore and Harry had a previous relationship...
In-Reply-To: <c44rjm+3j2n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c49hvt+t6be@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94372

>> Siriusly Snapey Susan:
> I always thought this remark simply meant that--because he has let 
> Harry down, because he has failed in some ways, and because Harry 
is 
> so angry with him--DD is wondering if their close relationship 
might 
> be *over*.  Comments?
> 
> Siriusly Snapey Susan


OOTP was my favorite book of the series for many reasons, it was 
dark, amusing, surprising and touching.  I am a huge, HUGE, Lupin 
and Sirius fan and was devasted at Sirius' death.  But, the part of 
the book that affected me the most was when DD is talking to Harry, 
and Harry is expressing so much rage and frustration.  I thought 
that DD was scared that maybe Harry wouldn't forgive him.  I don't 
have my copy of OOTP in front of me, but I seem to recall him crying 
(or getting teary-eyed) when he said why he didn't make Harry 
prefect?  Dumbledore loves  Harry, and he has seen Harry suffer so 
much, I think that he is worried that maybe their relationsihp might 
suffer.

With that being said, however, I always took that particular quote 
to mean that LV could never know how much of a role DD had played in 
shaping Harry's life while Harry was at Hogwarts.  That he didn't 
need to know how close they were even back in the SS/COS years.




From lionel_garth at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 16:25:02 2004
From: lionel_garth at yahoo.com (Lionel English)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 16:25:02 -0000
Subject: Hermione pre-Hogwarts (was re: flinching at LV's name)
In-Reply-To: <c47qq8+9nf5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c49iku+1f1u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94373

meriaugust wrote:
> I think that you've hit the nail on the head just above. Hermione 
> tends to memorize her school books, and is the kind of person who 
> would spend hours reading up on any particular subject just to 
> make sure she understands it. I imagine that when she got her 
> Hogwarts letter and picked up her books at Flourish and Blotts that 
> she 

I'm curious how Hermione got her books in the first place:  How do 
Muggle-born wizards *find* Diagon Alley the first time?  How do they 
know that's where to go to het their school supplies?  Do they get a 
guide, or a special orientation letter or something?

And would Hermione have gotten a letter of warning from the Ministry 
for practicing those first few spells at home?

Lionel




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Mon Mar 29 17:14:28 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 17:14:28 -0000
Subject: Harry, Snape,Occlumency
In-Reply-To: <c486e1+jhta@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c49lhk+58jl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94374

bboy_mn:
> > First, regardless of what any of the Snape defenders say, Snape 
> > did a lousy job of teaching Harry. 

> > Put yourself in a situation where someone, like an evil drill 
> > sargent, is standing over you screaming at you to be calm and 
> > clear your mind. That's just not going to work.
> <snip>
> > So, how about creative visualization? Harry pictures himself in a 
> > warm spring meadow with butterflys and humming birds, eagles 
> > soaring overhead, the soft rush of the wind as it sways the tall 
> > grass, the sweet fragrance of wild flowers fill the air, etc... 

> > Or how about deep breathing excersizes? Sit in a comfortable 
> > position and take a deep cleansing breath and let it out slowly. 

> > How about if Snape, in the beginning, gives Harry time to 
> > prepare, time to steel himself against the assault on his mind? 
> > In otherwords, make it easy at first, so that Harry is 
> > successful, then gradually as Harry's skill increases, make the 
> > assaults on his mind more difficult.

Annemehr:
> Yes, this is all true.  Occlumency was apparently doomed.  Reasons 
> for its failure:
> 1)The bad relationship between Snape and Harry -- Dumbledore refers 
> to this as Snape having wounds too deep for healing.   
> 2)The lateness of the attempt -- Voldemort's desire to get behind 
> the door of the DoM has infected Harry's mind for six months before 
> the lessons even begin.   
> 3)The "Drill Seargent" method 
> 4)It gets worse before it gets better
> 5)Harry is arguably having the most stressful time of his life -- 
> 6)Harry doesn't take it seriously enough --  
 
Siriusly Snapey Susan:
YES!  Thank you.  This is something I have been attempting to say for 
awhile now.  

Recently it has been pointed out that Snape came as close as he ever 
has to praising Harry during Occlumency, and this is true, but it was 
faint praise indeed *to Harry*, who'd had 5 years of expecting 
sarcasm & put-downs from Snape.  Lots of people say Snape did nothing 
wrong w/ Occlumency because it's nothing one can really teach [and 
they often mention how little Lupin told Harry about fighting 
dementors before he started practicing].  But I think what Steve says 
is true --just teaching him some things about how to slow down, how 
to clear his mind, giving him *time* to steel himself, would have 
been very helpful [even though I'm sure some are rolling their eyes 
at the image of Snape trying to discuss these things!].  

I think this would have shown Harry that Snape was truly willing to 
help him.  [Who was it who recently asked why Harry never asked for 
help?  Why *would* he ever ask Snape for help after how he's been 
treated?]  Yes, these are precisely the things I would argue that 
Snape *could* have done if he:  1) really cared about Harry's 
learning; and/or 2) was a competent teacher w/ Harry.  I think Steve 
was right on when he spoke to the importance of making it a bit 
easier at first and then making it more difficult as Harry 
experienced some success.  

I think Snape is talented, intelligent, wickedly sarcastic, and 
fighting for the good side...but I still argue he is a crappy 
teacher, at least of Harry & the Gryffindor crew!  I also think 
Kneasy is onto something that DD & Snape may have planned out how 
Snape would treat Harry, but clearly Snape has gone waaaaay overboard 
with it.

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From lionel_garth at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 17:33:30 2004
From: lionel_garth at yahoo.com (Lionel English)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 17:33:30 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION:  Chapter 15 (The Hogwarts High Inquisitor)
In-Reply-To: <c48j0b+8qk0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c49mla+co60@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94376

I agree with most of Andrew's responses, so rather than repeat them 
I'm going to selectively comment on his answers.

--- "Andrew" <ruminalus_ficus at y...> wrote:
> > 2. The Daily Prophet quotes Percy Wesley extensively.  How 
> > enthusiastic do you think his support really is?  Does he 
honestly 
> > believe what he says, is he doing it to get ahead of the 
Ministry, 
> > or does he really think he owes unquestioning obedience to his 
> > superiors?  How does the Percy we see here square with the Percy 
we 
> > saw in PS/SS who admired Dumbledore's brilliance?
> 
> I think Percy is a prime example of a person who, in spite of his 
> high intelligence, isn't wise enough or experienced enough to 
> recognize corruption or form his own opinions and loyalties.  His 
> take is that the actions of the Ministry are right because the 
> Ministry is the Ministry.  He doesn't seem to realize that the 
> government can be wrong.
> 
I think Percy's a person who has a lot of book smarts, but has 
failed to develop any critical faculties.  He has learned to pay 
attention to authority figures, and to emulate them, but has not 
studied, or learned, or thought about the ethical issues associated 
with authority:  *Why* should authority figures be respected?  When 
should they *not* be respected?  What is the difference between a 
position of authority, and a person *in* a position of authority?

The Percy we see here does not strike me as too different than the 
one in PS/SS, though I wouldn't have predicted it at the time.  In 
PS/SS, Percy's environment was Hogwarts, and Dumbledore was *the* 
authority figure.  In GoF (in retrospect an obvious foreshadowing of 
Percy's behavior), his envionrment was his Ministry department and 
his authority figure was Crouch.  Now he has a new environment, and 
a new authority figure.

I wonder what would happen if Percy were to become minister?  Who 
could his authority figure be?

> > 5. What did Umbridge hoped to achieve through the inspections?  
Has 
> > she targeted certain professors (we learn that Flitwick's 
was "no 
> > big deal")?  Does she have a hidden agenda beyond discrediting 
> > Dumbledore, and if so, what is it?  Is JKR using Umbridge to 
> > lampoon government interference in education?
> 
> It's possible that JKR had some intention to satirize government 
> interference in education, but I don't think that is very likely.  
> These are books meant for entertainment and the joy of reading, 
not 
> for political commentary.  It would be a disservice to the story 
to 
> try to infuse it with the author's political agenda.

I don't think she's pushing an agenda; but I wouldn't neccessarily 
rule out satire nor commentary.  One of the things that strikes me 
about the books is that as Harry gets older, he finds himself more 
and more exposed to and drawn into the world beyond school.  And one 
of the lessons Rowling seems intent on sharing is that the word is 
NOT divided up neatly into good guys and bad guys.  DD and LV 
represent the ultimate good guys and bad guys, but Harry's world is 
also filled with people like Snape, who is mean and nasty to Harry, 
but apparently on the side of good, and people like Fudge and Percy, 
who are initially nice and friendly, and seem like they're 
essentially good people, but who do things that are bad for Harry, 
his friends and allies, and the wizarding community in general.

Rowling has created a world that is ambiguous enough that characters 
who initially appear very similar, Percy and Hermione, can turn out 
to be quite different despite sharing essentially the same 
environment.  Hopefully by the end of the series Harry and friends 
will learn to make--in more than an instinctual way--the 
distinctions between people and their offices that Percy has failed 
to make.

> I think Umbridge was probably just trying to find out who was 
closest 
> to Dumbledore, and to find ways to replace those whom he was 
> responsible for hiring.  Umbridge wants complete control over the 
> school, and she knows that the other teachers don't particularly 
like 
> the changes she is instituting.

I don't recall any evidence from the book that suggests she was 
targetting certain instructors for inspection--I thought she'd done 
all of them; we simple didn't see them all.  I don't think there's 
evidence either way.  There's probably no evidence to support this 
either, but I was thinking that *everyone* who is currently at 
Hogwarts was probably hired by Dumbledore, except Binns (how long 
*has* Binns been teaching?).  I agree though that what Umbridge was 
up to was trying to access how loyal to Dumbledore people were; and 
actually looking for evidence of poor teaching, which would allow 
her to force people out and create opening for Minister friendly 
appointees.

--Lionel






From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Mon Mar 29 17:40:46 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 17:40:46 -0000
Subject: Snape as A-hole Drill Sargeant [was: Re: Harry, Snape,Occlumency]
In-Reply-To: <000601c4150e$0403cd60$05030f04@dslverizon.net>
Message-ID: <c49n2u+rq7s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94377

"Silverthorne" (Anne) said:
> However, for Military trained people the ability to remain
> calm and rational no matter *what* Mr Asshole Seargant is 
> screaming at you is one of the primary foci of training. Why? 
> Because later, when you're stuck in a fox hole with bombs going off 
> right over your head, a bleeding gut wound, and the best buddy you 
> knew since high school laying right next to you with his guts 
> hanging out, you're still going to have to be able to function and
> *think* in order to survive where you're at. Emotional reaction 
> won't cut it. Neither will a passive attitude. <snip>

> To put it into a little bit of cannon *speculation*, this is why, I 
> suspect, some of Snape's actions (horrid as they are by even 
> Rowling's standards), are permitted and maybe even encouraged. The 
> WW is at WAR. Sad but true. <snip>

> You can believe Snape is truly abusive or not, a horrid teacher or 
> not, but he is still delivering necessary lessons for a generation 
> who is not living in utopic peace...and is in fact at the moment, 
> hurtling to it's exact opposite--Hell on Earth--thanks to 
> Voldemort. And although what Snape does can be argued as 'damaging' 
> to the kids in present day pyschology terms, it will still help 
> them when up against Voldemort--because they will *already* know 
> how to keep thinking, no matter what's getting thrown at them, 
> thanks to having to deal with Snape.

Siriusly Snapey Susan:
Anne, you have done an *excellent* job of explaining this, and I have 
no doubt that you are right about why Asshole Drill Sergeants behave 
as they do.  

The *only* potential quibbles I have with this are:
1) Those who are in RW military training/school most often *know* 
that they are heading into training specifically for the potentiality 
OF WAR.  They are also legally adults.  [Or in the case of military 
academies for teens, know it's a *military* setting.]  The Hogwarts 
kids are **eleven** when they arrive and believe they are going to 
boarding school to learn basic WW subjects.  I would think that NOT 
being up front with the students about the war and also not taking 
into account their ages could potentially **undo** the good of 
Snape's giving them practice dealing w/ nasty people.  Do you know 
what I mean?  Snape has been cruel & nasty since the beginning.  Are 
11- or 12-year-olds who see themselves as boarding school students 
able to *learn* under the Asshole Drill Sergeant methods the way an 
18-year-old army recruit is?  [Don't jump down my throat anyone, 
please, it's just a question!]  *I* think that kids that age would 
have to know *something* of why they're being treated this way in 
order for them to not "pull a Neville" [be so frightened he can't 
learn] or "pull a Harry" [be so angry he won't/can't learn].  

2) I would think if Snape were acting as Asshold Drill Sergeant at 
Hogwarts, because the WW is at war, then he'd treat all students the 
same way.  Or does he go soft on the Slytherins because he doesn't 
*want* them to war war-ready???

Just some wonderings in response to this excellent post.
Siriusly Snapey Susan





From kreneeb at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 29 17:52:49 2004
From: kreneeb at hotmail.com (hermionekitten9)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 17:52:49 -0000
Subject: Hermione pre-Hogwarts (was re: flinching at LV's name)
Message-ID: <c49nph+lm06@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94378

Lionel
>I'm curious how Hermione got her books in the first place: How do
>Muggle-born wizards *find* Diagon Alley the first time? How do they
>know that's where to go to het their school supplies? Do they get a
>guide, or a special orientation letter or something?

kitten
In the most recent interview, JKR said that muggle borns, like 
Hermione, get a visitor... I'm sure that's how they know.

HPFreak7: How are muggle parents convinced to let their kids go to 
Hogwarts, a strange place they never heard of before; and wouldn't 
they think it was a practical joke?
JK Rowling replies -> In the case of Muggle parents, special 
messengers are sent to explain everything to them. But don't forget 
that they will have noticed that there's something strange about 
their child for the previous ten years, so it won't come as a 
complete bolt from the blue. 

Lionel
>And would Hermione have gotten a letter of warning from the Ministry
>for practicing those first few spells at home?

kitten
I have also wondered about that... and the same applies for Harry 
when he makes the glass disappear at the zoo, though that could just 
be because he didn't purposely do it, but it's still strange. I 
would think that with all those muggles around... they would have 
had to do something.

I suppose the ministry doesn't keep tabs on eleven year olds, or 
that they because they don't t  their not  suppose to do magic... it 
wasn't until the end of ss/ps that Harry found out that can't... I 
guess they get of the hook easier, then say a thirteen year old who 
blows his aunt up.  





From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 17:21:45 2004
From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (Ms Mo Me)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 09:21:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Why DD might not want Snape for DADA job
In-Reply-To: <1080530887.5010.88161.m10@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040329172145.31950.qmail@web13505.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94379

I keep reading posts about Snape applying to the DADA
job and why doesn't he get it.  (I apologise if this
has been written before, but, as of yet, I haven't
come across a post saying so.)

Anyway, it is theorized that that DADA job is cursed. 
No one stays longer than a year.  So, my thought is,
maybe it really IS cursed, and DD knows this.  Since
Snape is a member of the order and is extremely useful
to have around, DD doesn't want to risk loosing him by
putting him in the DADA job.

Just a thought.

~Mo

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html



From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Mon Mar 29 18:08:19 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 18:08:19 -0000
Subject: Snape, the "Deeply Horrible Person"
In-Reply-To: <c48mpc+bnva@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c49omj+n0bm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94380

"Jo Ann" <LadySawall at a...> wrote:
> On another tangent, I also wonder whether the phrase "deeply 
> horrible" is in reference only to Snape's personality, or to his 
> story as a whole...not only his thoughts and actions, but also 
> perhaps the things that have happened to him?

Or perhaps to things he has DONE...such as during his DE days??

Siriusly Snapey Susan






From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Mon Mar 29 18:16:11 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 18:16:11 -0000
Subject: Snape tipping off the wrong side (was: Snape outing Harry as Parselmouth)
In-Reply-To: <c49efd+3f26@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c49p5b+1e3j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94381

Siriusly Snapey Susan wrote:
> > > Ah, but consider this.  If most of the teaching staff at 
> > > Hogwarts *knows*:  a) that DD trusts Snape implicitly; and b) 
> > > that Snape is POSING as a Voldy Spy while actually being a DD 
> > > Spy; then they'd *know* not to worry too much about Snape's 
> > > behavior toward the Draco gang, right?  They'd know it's part 
> > > of his cover w/ Draco, Lucius, etc.

Steffy wrote: 
> > Do you think that the majority of the staff has always known how 
> > deep Snape's relationship with LV goes?  
 
Potioncat:
> I so liked SSS's answer (snipped a little here) that I didn't pick 
> up on this.  Steffy, you have a good point.  I doubt any of the 
> staff knew that Snape was a DE.  (or not until he showed Fudge 
> anyway.) If (excuse me, when) he favored Slytherins, it could just 
> be considered part of his nasty nature.  

Susan again:
Yes, good question to ask!  I have no idea which--if any--of the 
staff would have reason to know.  I *suspect* that anyone in the 
Order would know, but that's just DD & McGonagall [and former 
teachers Lupin and Moody--well, not that he really got to teach!] 
that we know of, right?

Hmmm.  If most of the staff *doesn't* know, then it's interesting 
that we haven't seen his favoritism remarked upon by staff....  [I 
know, Snape defenders may tell me that it's because only Harry 
perceives the favoritism. :-)]

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From entropymail at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 18:32:44 2004
From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 18:32:44 -0000
Subject: Faking Sirius' Death? Again!
In-Reply-To: <c1dfm8+5mt2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c49q4c+1of1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94382

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "entropymail" <entropymail at y...>
wrote:

><snip>as Sirius says, his "big disguise is useless". <snip> He >is
bored, restless, and sure to become increasingly  reckless if >this is
allowed to continue.  <snip> This means that >Dumbledore and the Order
need to come up with a new  way of >hiding Sirius. How?  Perhaps by 
faking his death. 


And now new stuff:

This relates to something I posted a while back in post #91486 ( I
couldn't re-post it all here, but it's worth a look), some of which
I've snipped above, just so you know what the heck I'm talking about.
 Anyway, this thought occured to me today, and I thought I'd like to
add it:

In OOP, when Harry and the rest visit Gilderoy Lockhart at St.
Mungo's,  they end up in the "Janus Thickey" ward.   Janus Thickey, we
found out a while back, was a wizard who, in 1973,  *faked his own
death* by leaving a note on the bedside table for his wife, claiming
that he had been killed by a Lethifold.  As described in Fantasic
Beasts, a Lethifold, also known as a Living Shroud,  is a  "dangerous
beast resembling a half-inch thick black cloak which moves along the
ground at night, hunting its prey. It attacks sleeping humans,
smothers them, then digests them, all in their bed, leaving no trace
at all. The only defense against a Lethifold is a Patronus Charm.
Thankfully, this frightening creature is rare, only found in the
tropics ."

Knowing JKR's sly sense of humor and keeping in mind how she enjoys
messing with us by giving us insignificant-seeming clues along the
way, could it be that she was trying to tell us something?  It seems
to me that it can't possibly be a coincidence that, in the very same
book in which we lose Sirius, we are reminded of a *wizard* who has
*faked his own death* via a *black shroud (veil!)*, only to return
shortly thereafter alive and well.  Further, didn't Sirius spend some
time hanging out in the tropics after his escape?

Tell me: am I seeing things, or is there really something here?

:: Entropy ::




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Mar 29 18:37:03 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 18:37:03 -0000
Subject: Snape tipping off the wrong side (was: Snape outing Harry as Parselmouth)
In-Reply-To: <c49p5b+1e3j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c49qcf+7ard@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94383

x 
> 
> Susan again:
> Yes, good question to ask!  I have no idea which--if any--of the 
> staff would have reason to know.  I *suspect* that anyone in the 
> Order would know, but that's just DD & McGonagall [and former 
> teachers Lupin and Moody--well, not that he really got to teach!] 
> that we know of, right?
> 
> Hmmm.  If most of the staff *doesn't* know, then it's interesting 
> that we haven't seen his favoritism remarked upon by staff....  [I 
> know, Snape defenders may tell me that it's because only Harry 
> perceives the favoritism. :-)]
> 


Potincat: 
Of course it's because only Harry percieves the favoritism!
Actually, Quirrell mentions that Snape made himself unpopular when 
he reffed the one quidditch game.  So I'm sure his general approach 
is well known by the teachers. And most likely commented on.

Now, if Harry will just hide in the wardrobe again so we can hear a 
few conversations.
Potioncat





From stevejjen at earthlink.net  Mon Mar 29 18:46:32 2004
From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 18:46:32 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION:  Chapter 15 (The Hogwarts High Inquisitor)
In-Reply-To: <c490dk+t5h7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c49qu8+evof@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94384

Debbie:
5. What did Umbridge hope to achieve through the inspections? Has
she targeted certain professors (we learn that Flitwick's was "no
big deal")? Does she have a hidden agenda beyond discrediting
Dumbledore, and if so, what is it? Is JKR using Umbridge to lampoon
government interference in education?

Jen: Hmmm..interesting question. The two teachers Umbridge targets, 
Hagrid and Trelawney, are considered sub-par by many of the 
students. But I don't think Umbridge is looking out for the 
student's best interest there! She's merely targeting the easiest of 
Dumbledore's defenders, a group which also includes McGonagall, 
Sprout, Flitwick & Snape, who are more skilled in their teaching and 
perhaps also harder for Umbridge to bully. I guess she could have a 
personal agenda as well, a bias against Divination and Care of 
Magical Creatures as less 'theoretical' subjects. 

Debbie:
8. What, if anything, does the revelation of McGonagall's December
starting date at Hogwarts signify? Is this a clue to a significant
backstory, or a red herring?

Jen: Given what we know about Dumbledore's hiring of Trelawney, 
Hagrid & Snape, you have to wonder if McGonagall wasn't also brought 
to Hogwarts for reasons other than her competent teaching ability. 
After all, she's old enough to know LV was Tom Riddle and perhaps 
was somehow involved in his rise to power or his many 
transformations.

Back in September, I wrote an essay about 'Hogwarts as Sanctuary' 
#81631 (link below) and I think McGonagall could be another example 
of the many children, adults and creatures Dumbeldore has brought to 
Hogwarts for their own safety.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/81631


Debbie:
7. Did you guess after reading Trelawney's inspection that 
Trelawney's hiring had to do with her first correct predicion?  
And did anyone mark the fact that Trelawney's dire prediction for 
Umbridge came true in the Forbidden Forest?

Hickengruendler: 
a) No, I didn't guess it, but I really think I should, because it 
seems completely logical right now. Why else would Dumbledore have 
hired for her?
 
b) Yes, I did. I realized it the moment the dark Bane attacked 
Umbridge. Trelawney's fake predictions mostly come true. I think JKR 
uses them as foreshadowing.  


Jen: No, I had no clue Trelawney's hiring date had to do with her 
first prediction. It seems so obvious now! I also wasn't part of 
this group yet, and pretty much took the stories at face-value prior 
to HPFGU ;). Re: Hickengruendler's thoughts on Trelawney's fake 
predictions--I hope this means Harry will "live to a ripe old age, 
become Minister of Magic, and have twelve children"! (OOTP, US, 
chap. 26, p. 582)

Thanks for a good chapter discussion, Debbie!




From vmonte at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 18:52:38 2004
From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 18:52:38 -0000
Subject: Evaluating Snape (was: Re: Lupin's resentment )
In-Reply-To: <c49bda+7m54@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c49r9m+m0rf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94385

Joe in SoFla wrote:
That sounds like it's SUPPOSED to be construed as a "no" but in 
fact, it's not. (It's not a yes, either.) In fact that non-answer, 
IMO, is just a way to address the question in a vague way.
 
It IS, of course, possible that Snape might be an (unregistered) 
Animagus whose form is that of a bat.

vmonte responds:
You may be right. In fact, it's possible that the James Potter gang  
learned how to become animagi indirectly because of Snape. If Snape 
was in Gryffindor, as some people suspect, I could see Sirius rifling 
through his journals,books, or any other "light reading" Snape might 
have lying about.  

What if Snape found out that James Potter and gang were unregistered 
animagi? So, he decides to go to the head master after OWL exams, but 
before he can do that Potter's crew humiliate him in front of the 
school (by hanging upside down like a bat).  James in effect tells 
Snape without revealing to the rest of the school that he also knows 
that Snape is an unregistered animagus (a bat).  

vmonte




From manawydan at ntlworld.com  Mon Mar 29 18:54:55 2004
From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 19:54:55 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] CHAPTER DISCUSSION:  Chapter 15 (The Hogwarts High Inquisitor)
References: <1080549429.4304.22494.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <001901c415bf$54195660$7ee66151@f3b7j4>

No: HPFGUIDX 94387

Debbie wrote:
>Questions
>
>1.  According to the Daily Prophet, the High Inquisitor position was
>the result of "surprise legislation" passed by the Ministry on a
>Sunday night.  Who passed that legislation?  A legislative body?  If
>so, who is it composed of?  How is it chosen?  Why wasn't it
>mentioned by name?

We've never had any hint of any legislative body, short of a Wizarding
Congress, and there doesn't seem to be one of those in standing session:
they seem to be called infrequently to deal with really big issues.

My own feel is that the Minister has a standing authority to introduce
legislation: that's one of his duties and responsibilities. so the answer to
the question is that it's composed of C Fudge. He's chosen by election,
that's said explicitly, but not whether it's any sort of election that we
would recognise as such in our world (was there more than one candidate, for
example, or was it just a vote formally to approve someone who'd already
been nominated: how many electors were there, how are they chosen, are they
susceptible to bribery (jingle, jingle goes Lucius's moneybag...))

But one more interesting question: before Fudge was Minister, he was a
Junior Minister: obviously one step above mere bureaucrats, but does the
power to legislate go below the Minister's own office? Is there even some
sort of power for the Ministry departments to introduce sets of rules (on
the thickness of cauldron bottoms for example) which the rest of the WW are
expected to follow?

>2. The Daily Prophet quotes Percy Wesley extensively.  How
>enthusiastic do you think his support really is?  Does he honestly
>believe what he says, is he doing it to get ahead of the Ministry,
>or does he really think he owes unquestioning obedience to his
>superiors?  How does the Percy we see here square with the Percy we
>saw in PS/SS who admired Dumbledore's brilliance?

Percy gets quoted because he's the one who relays the story to the paper. I
don't think he's being anything other than a mouthpiece for Fudge and
Umbridge in that - they are clearly pulling the strings and he is doing what
he's told. Whether he's come to _believe_ it by now is another matter: he's
had a few months in the Minister's office, surrounded by people giving him
the party line all the time and with no countervailing influences outside
work to get him to question what he's told. Not good at questioning what
he's told, our Percy: it let him down when Crouch was kidnapped and it's let
him down again.

Cheers

Ffred

O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon
Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion
Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 19:01:43 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 19:01:43 -0000
Subject: Evaluating Snape (was: Re: Lupin's resentment )
In-Reply-To: <c4642n+emli@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c49rqn+9bkp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94388

Kneasy wrote:
<snip>
> Here we diverge.
> Snape is an equal opportunity tyrant. Annoy  him and you'll know
> about it, no matter who you are.

Carol:
Kneasy, please don't faint or be too disappointed that someone agrees
with you wholeheartedly. I think you're right on all counts in this
post (however, you'll be glad to know that we envision Snape quite
differently--you've added a few traits in another post that aren't
exactly canonical :-) ).

Regarding the "equal opportunity tyrant" remark: We seldom see him
with any students other than Gryffindors and Slytherins, but he
deducts ten points each from Miss Fawcett (a Ravenclaw) and Stebbins
(a Hufflepuff) when he catches them behind the rosebushes, presumably
kissing, at the Yule Ball. No doubt there are plenty of similar
incidents. We just don't see them because Harry doesn't.

> 
> What was very significant IMO was that Snape started needling
> Harry  from day one. This is not an accident. It was deliberate
> and contrived. Most posters would agree with that. The critical
> question is "Why?"

Carol:
IMO, it's because it's essential to establish that Harry is not
special *in himself*--he is not a hero for not having died and he
didn't deliberately vaporize Voldemort. These things *just happened*
to him. The other students need to know right away that this kid is
not some superhero whom they should worship, and Harry needs to know
it, too. Far from making him an abuse victim, this tactic is designed,
IMO, to keep him as *normal* as possible. (Lockhart, in the next book,
has the opposite view--Harry is a precocius celebrity who should be
handing out autographed photos of himself. We all know that Lockhart
is an idiot, and we should understand that this view of Harry is all
wrong. We see this idea again with Krum, who has a gaggle of girls
following his every move--a situation that Dumbledore and Snape know
would be disastrous for Harry.) I'm not denying that Harry has done
some remarkable things by Book 5, but as he himself notes when he's
not being controlled by anger and resentment, part of that was luck
and he always had help. Harry has to learn that it's possible to fail
and to understand the consequences of failure. And above all, he needs
to learn to be patient and to follow directions--lessons Snape imposes
on him at every turn.
>
Keasy wrote: 
> We agree that Snape is not an idiot; just the opposite - he seems
> to be regarded as a Potions super-star. Would such a calculating,
> cold-blooded, non-trivial individual be so unthinking and petty as
> to resurrect an old quarrel with a person now dead down to the
> second generation? Not without a fresh impetus, I think.

<paragraph moved here from later in Kneasy's post>
> DD helps the action along. He gives Harry a reason why Snape hates
> him. His father. This to an 11 year old who doesn't know which way 
> is up in the WW. So now when anyone wonders what's going on, Harry
> can tell them. All nicely wrapped up. This story will run and run.

Carol:
Exactly. Dumbledore is providing Snape with a believable motive for
disliking Harry from the beginning of their relationship--believable
because it's partly true. He reinforces this idea at the end of OoP,
allowing Harry to think that Snape discontinued the Occlumency lessons
solely because of his old quarrel with James. He doesn't even mention
Snape's very understandable anger at Harry for invading his private
memories. But that anger explains only Snape's initial reaction. It's
far from the whole story. I'm pretty sure, as you also seem to be,
that it would have been disastrous for LV to see the other memories in
that Pensieve. And I'm also sure that if the Occlumency were working
(if Harry had not resented Snape so fiercely that the refused to
practice), that DD would have ordered Snape to continue. But he knew
about the discontinuation and allowed it. He must have understood and
respected Snape's reasons for abandoning the lessons--but he did not
give those reasons to Harry.  

Kneasy wrote: 
> The key word is 'calculating'. What does Snape have to gain from
> giving  Harry  the  hard word  at every opportunity? Not much.
> Unless you  think in wider terms. He has his credentials with the
> DEs and through them to Voldy to think about. And kids will talk.
> It wouldn't do for the likes of Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle to get the
> impression that Sevvy was going soft on the Potter kid.

Carol:
Exactly. He has to maintain credibility as the Head of Slytherin House
and with the Death Eaters whom he has to associate with to obtain
information for DD. He *apparently* favors Draco for the same
reason--he has to remain on good terms with Draco's father, who I
believe is his chief contact for the information he gains about the
DEs for Dumbledore. But as I argued in another post, that "favoritism"
amounts to ignoring Draco's misbehavior and calling him by his first
name. It does not include giving him undeserved high marks. We never
see Draco messing up in Potions. If his were pink instead of
turquoise, if he melted his cauldron or set his robe on fire, we would
know about it because Harry would be gloating. I think we'll see Draco
in Snape's NEWT Potions class because he deserves to be there. (Heaven
forfend, we'll probably see Pansy Parkinson, too--but not the cretins
Crabbe and Goyle).
> 
Kneasy wrote:
> If what most of us think is true about Snape's work for the Order,
> then he must be a superb actor to be able to get away with it.
> Every good actor needs his props - and Harry (and Neville) come
> in very handy indeed.

 <short paragraph on Snape and James snipped and moved>
 
> I've posted before that I believe that DD  and Snape are one of the 
> best double-acts in the business. DD knows exactly what is going on,
> IMO it was probably his idea. All part of his "Let's make sure Harry
> is not coddled, spoilt or hero-worshipped" plan. After 11 years in 
> the Muggle  world and seeing the  WW as a refuge he needs to learn
> very, very quickly that there are some nasty people around. And he
> needs to learn how to cope with them. What better  place to learn 
> than at school? So in a way what Snape does is intended to  have
> an effect on Harry - but it's for a positive reason.
>   
> Now I don't claim that Snape likes Harry. He probably doesn't like
> anyone much, but he knows and  appreciates  that Harry isn't James
> or Sirius. Them he will never forgive, but he has no real argument
> with Harry, just general levels of scorn and contempt, suitable for
> any incompetent in his classes. Exaggerating his attitudes towards 
> Harry would most likely give him a perverse pleasure.

Carol:
Also Harry greatly increases Snape's workload by continuing being out
of bounds and breaking rules, and part of Snape's job is to catch him
and prevent him from making matters worse. Few students other than the
Weasley twins are that much trouble. Harry, in Snape's view, is just
like his father in that respect--except that his survival is essential
to the WW and Snape is trying to insure that Harry survives despite
his own personal antipathy. And Snape also has reason to believe that
Harry has broken into his office--boomslang skin was stolen in Harry's
second year and is missing again in GoF. Snape has no way of knowing
at that point that it was stolen by Crouch!Moody. Harry was out of bed
at three in the morning wearing his invisibility cloak and carrying
the Marauder's Map on the same night that his office was broken into.
What else is he supposed to think? So IMO, the dislike is real, the
resentment is real, but he is nevertheless firmly on Dumbledore's side
and trying to keep Harry safe for the sake of the WW (and his own life
debt to James).
>
Kneasy wrote: 
> Harry, on the other  hand... Hoo! For him it's all real.  Snape
hates him and he hates Snape; even when he finds out that they're both
> on the same side. Snape and DD believe that they can live with this,
> it's only a schoolboy's emotional spasm, but it blows up in their
> faces when it comes to Occlumency. Harry is so adamantly anti-
> Snape (anti-everybody, come to that), that he will not co-operate.
<snip>

Carol:
Exactly. All those passages about Snape hating Harry must be read with
a grain of salt. They're from Harry's point of view. I suggest that
anyone who doubt this read passages unrelated to Snape where the
narrator seems to be giving straightforward information that
afterwards turns out to be wrong--Harry's parents dying in a car
accident, Sirius trying to murder Harry, Harry about to die, Dementors
able to see, etc. this "information" is wrong because it's what Harry
"knows" at the time. But it's really what Harry *thinks* he knows. 

I do hope that Dumbledore provides Harry some solid information about
Snape in Book 6, but I doubt that he will. The danger of LV finding
out, through Harry, what Snape is really up to will still be too
great. But I do see a reluctant and grudging respect for Harry on
Snape's part at the end of OoP. In fact, his reaction to McGonagall's
restoring points to Gryffindor is so mild that he almost gives the
game away. Maybe Harry will develop a similar grudging appreciation
for Snape's enormous workload and the dangers he has to face. He can't
keep using Snape as a scapegoat for his resentment. He has to
understand that it was not the discontinued Occlumency lessons that
killed Sirius. He must realize that he and Snape are on the same side
and that the real enemy is Voldemort. I think the first steps toward
that mutual understanding (which is *not* the same as mutual
affection) will happen in Book 6.

Carol




From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 19:07:37 2004
From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (drjuliehoward)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 19:07:37 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Harry=92s_anger:_neither_teen_angst_nor_channeling_Voldemort?=
In-Reply-To: <c49gv4+kaqg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c49s5p+p49v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94389

<snip>
> Ffi:
> Sorry if I'm repeating someone because I've been away fromt he 
lsit 
> for a while, but it's always occurred to me that Harry's 
> anger/behaviour had something to do with the  fact that LV was 
> getting in to his head.  <snip>

Yes, as I said in my post, I agree there are many reasons why Harry 
was getting angry (LV influence included).  I simply wanted to bring 
out an addition reason for his anger, not to replace any others (LV, 
teen angst, etc).




From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 19:12:35 2004
From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (drjuliehoward)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 19:12:35 -0000
Subject: The Grangers and Fighting LV
In-Reply-To: <c46hu1+m4u8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c49sf3+7rna@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94390

<snip>
> I suspect that we'll find that Ron (and Hermione and their 
families)
> will become targets of the DEs anyway.  <snip>

Given that LV previously impacted the muggle world and muggles also 
were looking for Sirius, what about the idea of muggles (namely the 
Grangers) join in fighting LV?  I have no idea what this would look 
like, given that they would not fight with magic like the members of 
the Order, but if they may be a target (as the previous post 
suggests), may they actually become an ally?  

Just a thought.





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 19:25:45 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 19:25:45 -0000
Subject: Voldemort's defeat
In-Reply-To: <c46bmh+ta85@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c49t7p+v5k4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94391

Puja wrote:
JKR often hints at Harry's defeat. However in PS she shows LV 
drinking unicorn blood (thru Prof. Quirrel). Drinking unicorn blood 
gives the person "a half life, a cursed life". Does this imply that 
LV will definitely be defeated or did that refer to Prof Quirrel 
having a half and cursed life because he was the one drinking unicorn 
blood. 

Djr (I think!) responded: 
> Actually, wasn't it Voldemort who drank the unicorn blood? Remember, 
> his head was attached to Quirrel's? I'm with you in looking for any 
> excuse for Harry not to die, but it was Voldemort who said "see what 
> I have become; a parasite.....have to live off another!"

Carol:
If that's the case, Quirrell must be a very flexible acrobat able to
do a backbend so that LV can drink the blood. I think Quirrell had to
drink it, just as he would have had to take the stone and kill Harry.
Voldemort, with his face sticking out the back of Quirrell's head,
would have been unable to do any of these things himself. The "other"
that Voldemort had to live off was Quirrell, not the unicorn. Just
possibly the unicorn blood affected Voldemort, too, but since he was
already living something less than a half life, it didn't much matter.
In fact, even with his resurrected body, he's still only "surviving."
He can only "live" if Harry is killed. But given the unicorn blood and
everything else, maybe he can't live at all and is doomed to die
through Harry (no guesses from me how that will happen).

Regarding Quirrell, we had a discussion a while back about when
Quirrell became evil and how innocent he was to begin with. IMO, he
was too weak-willed to resist LV's possession of him, a half-willing
victim who regarded LV as his master and obeyed him as much out of
duty as terror. I don't think he became completely, irredeemably evil
until he killed the unicorn, and when the blood touched *his* lips
(not Voldemort's unless Q. was a contortionist) he began that cursed
half-life. So maybe he was nearly dead when he tried to kill Harry,
alive only because the parasite Voldemort was still inside him, and
when Voldemort left Quirrell's body, he took that half-life with him,
killing Quirrell. (It wasn't Harry's touch that killed him; that's
movie contamination.) 

Carol




From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 17:11:04 2004
From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 17:11:04 -0000
Subject: Evaluating Snape (was: Re: Lupin's resentment )
In-Reply-To: <c49bv4+77ia@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c49lb8+4ie4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94392

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at m...> 
wrote:
> > It IS, of course, possible that Snape might be an (unregistered) 
> > Animagus whose form is that of a bat.
>
> Or he could be a registered animagus.

Ooops. That's what I meant when I parenthesized "unregistered" when 
I meant to parenthesized "unregistered or registered" but yes, 
you're right. The bat references could be red herrings (where Snape 
is an animagus) or clues for vampirism (where Snape is a vampire).

Or maybe Snape just has an affectation.

-Joe in SoFla




From doliesl at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 19:32:20 2004
From: doliesl at yahoo.com (doliesl)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 19:32:20 -0000
Subject: Snape, the "Deeply Horrible Person"
In-Reply-To: <c49ho7+kh1e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c49tk4+2ikl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94393

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" <nkafkafi at y...> wrote:
> > I'm re-reading JKR interviews and ran across this o
ne at 
Quick 
> > Quotes:
> > 
> > Q: Who's your favorite character besides Harry Potter?
> > A: It's very hard to choose. It's fun to wrte about Snape because 
> > he's a deeply horrible person. 
> 
> <snip>
> > This seems like a *very* strong negative characterization to me. 
> <snip>

> Neri:
> Thanks for this JKR's quote. For me it fits exactly. We have fun 
> reading Snape, as JKR has fun writing him, *because* he is a deeply 
> horrible person, not in spite of it.
> JKR has managed to write a story which is simultaneously a Cinderella 
> story and a Cinderella parody. The Dursleys are horrible people too, 
> and like Snape they are horrible in an entertaining way, so JKR gets 
> them to do a double job for her, or actually a triple job: Firstly, 
> we pity and identified with Harry when he is abused by them. 
> Secondly, we laugh because the abuse is portrayed in a funny way. 
> Thirdly, we cheer when Harry pays them back what they deserve. In the 
> case of Snape it gets even better, because unlike the Dursleys he is 
> a capable person with some admired qualities and a critical role in 
> the war against Evil. So in addition to the three jobs above, we also 
> appreciate him and want him to be redeemed. Plus we fall for his 

I agree with everything written by Neri here.

But maybe I understand it wrong, the problem the original post raised is th=
at some 
posters do not find Snape "a deeply horrible person in a fun way". They do =
not find  
any mystery to him, as he's obviously ESE so end of all speculations and di=
cussions. 
Some people would argue that Snape is not fun to read either, as I've read =
before 
people saying they cannot go back reading any Snape's parts in the book bec=
ause they 
hate him too much (I personally think it'll be better for these people to l=
ighten up: 
recognize the book as full of fairytale archetypes and that it's a fictiona=
l book gear 
toward young readers with an overall comical tone that's meant to entertain=
, not to 
hurt you...*roll my eyes*). The original post ention that even Voldemort do=
 not get 
such negative characterization from the author. This quote is often used by=
 those 
who argue ESE!Snape as canon prove. 


Keep in mind, while JKR often described Snape as sadistic, abusive, horribl=
e and 
nasty, she also say he's FUN to write and *really likes Snape* (mention him=
 along 
Dumbledore and Sirius) as a great character. We never see JKR saying Voldem=
ort is 
"fun" to write, or that she really likes him, or having the same giggling a=
musement she 
had with Snape toward the likes of Voldemort and Malfoys. It rings true in =
the book: 
there's always something that sets Snape apart from villains that just are.=
..villain.  
 
I agree with whoever said that "deeply horrible" do not equal to 'deepl evi=
l". 

> Neri: 
> I suspect, however, that JKR did not plan for Snape becoming so 
> popular, even more popular than Harry. Part of this popularity is 
> maybe because the grown-up sophisticated reader appreciates Snape's 
> machiavellian complexity more than Harry's teenage naivet?. But 
> popularity as usual has its negative side effects, so there is a 


Really? I never find Snape all that popular aside from this group (not coun=
ting Snape-
centric boards and groups). I always have the impression that most young re=
aders 
don't bother much with Snape. HPGFU (currently at least) is in fact one of =
the most 
Snape-fans friendly online discussion lists online (thanks to the wonderful=
 posts with 
variety of opinions). In majority of other HP-for-adult readers discussion =
place if you 
dare to mention Snape's your favorite, you only get mock and trash. Before =
I go 
online looking for, I always assume everything treat HP as light entertaini=
ng read, I 
enjoyed the world and basically like all the characters. I was surprised by=
 how 
serious people take this book, and the hate (and love) people respond to ch=
aracters 
like Snape are quite amazing.... 

> Neri:
> tendency to read Snape in a more positive light than he i portrayed, 
> which IMO is completely counterproductive. I want the deeply horrible 
> Snape to be redeemed because he'll help saving the WW, but I don't 
> want him to turn out the nobel and wronged hero. This will ruin Snape 
> as a character.

Agree. But insisting Snape as a no-mystery, plain simple predictable one-di=
mensional 
bastard only capable of hate and irredeemable ESE is ruining Snape as a cha=
racter too.

D.




From vmonte at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 19:37:52 2004
From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 19:37:52 -0000
Subject: Faking Sirius' Death? Again!
In-Reply-To: <c49q4c+1of1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c49tug+p9vk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94394

entropy wrote:
...a wizard who in 1973,  *faked his own death* by leaving a note on 
the bedside table for his wife, claiming that he had been killed by a 
Lethifold.  As described in Fantasic Beasts, a Lethifold, also known 
as a Living Shroud,  is a  "dangerous beast resembling a half-inch 
thick black cloak which moves along the ground at night, hunting its 
prey. It attacks sleeping humans, smothers them, then digests them, 
all in their bed, leaving no trace at all. The only defense against a 
Lethifold is a Patronus Charm. Thankfully, this frightening creature 
is rare, only found in the tropics ."

vmonte responds:
Your quote reminded me more of Voldemort than of Sirius.  

vmonte




From snapesmate at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 29 20:16:13 2004
From: snapesmate at hotmail.com (snapesmate)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 20:16:13 -0000
Subject: Faking Sirius' Death? Again!
In-Reply-To: <c49tug+p9vk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4a06d+htrb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94395

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" <vmonte at y...> wrote:
> entropy wrote:
> ...a wizard who in 1973,  *faked his own death* by leaving a note 
on 
> the bedside table for his wife, claiming that he had been killed by 
a 
> Lethifold.  <snip> 
> vmonte responds:
> Your quote reminded me more of Voldemort than of Sirius.  
> 
> vmonte

Or we should be prepared for Regulus to reappear in the land of the 
living!  Is there any canon for how much younger he was than Sirius?  
Maybe he had been hiding out at Grimmauld as well.

Lynnette, who thinks Snape IS a good guy, even if he is NOT a nice
guy!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterverseofadults




From jdr0918 at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 29 20:18:24 2004
From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 20:18:24 -0000
Subject: Harry's disposition
In-Reply-To: <20040329031232.56268.qmail@web21503.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c4a0ag+r3vo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94396

<<<In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ashley Masley wrote: ...But it 
is just hormones... I also really hope that Hermione never acts like 
that because it will be ten times worse since she is a young 
woman...>>>

The Sergeant Majorette says

I think we already saw Hermione's hormonal meltdown in PoA. She's 
thirteen, she's totally overextended (the time-turner) and Draco has 
just made the kind of stupid-mean remark she usually rolls her eyes 
at and tells the others to ignore: this time she hauls off and bitch-
slaps him. She's sort of shrill and edgy the whole book.

Textbook first PMS. A girl can be a menace before she discovers just 
the right combination of ibuprofen, chocolate and hard liquor...

--JDR




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Mar 29 17:32:14 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 17:32:14 -0000
Subject: Harry, Snape,Occlumency
In-Reply-To: <c49lhk+58jl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c49miu+14dd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94397

Siriusly Snapey Susan wrote:
> 
> I think Snape is talented, intelligent, wickedly sarcastic, and 
> fighting for the good side...but I still argue he is a crappy 
> teacher, at least of Harry & the Gryffindor crew!  I also think 
> Kneasy is onto something that DD & Snape may have planned out how 
> Snape would treat Harry, but clearly Snape has gone waaaaay 
overboard 
> with it.
> 

Potioncat:
I'm not sure that they planned how to treat Harry.  I think it's 
more that he realizes how Snape will treat him. DD seems to pretty 
much accept people as they are and let them go about their business. 

Snape is a horrible teacher. (If anyone asks I'm being imperio'd) I 
know he's at Hogwarts because of his ability to help DD against LV 
or as a safe place  because of his past help to DD.  But isn't it 
interesting that DD could find a place at the school for Snape, who 
is a terrible teacher (imperio again) but Lupin, who is much better 
at teaching is wandering around penniless? I know it may be more 
commonly known that Lupin is a werewolf and it's been "proved" that 
Snape isn't a DE, but still, you'd think DD could find something for 
Lupin, even if it wasn't at Hogwarts.

Potioncat





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 20:30:06 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 20:30:06 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c46tbk+c6k0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4a10e+1faa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94398

Pippin wrote:
Okay. It seems to me that you've fallen for one of JKR's clever 
bits of misdirection (haven't we all?) The lesson "imagine that 
bully in his underwear" is  plainly and powerfully conveyed *to 
the reader.* Unless you're paying very careful attention to that 
one line that says Neville's problems with Snape are worse than 
ever, you won't see that Harry and Neville didn't get it.


Carol:
I'm not sure that I've chosen the most appropriate post in this thread
to respond to, but I do want to throw in my opinion. Here's what I
think happened. Snape was waiting in the classroom for Lupin, knowing
that he would be teaching Boggarts that day. He wanted to warn Lupin
(without blowing his anti-Gryffindor cover) that Neville Longbottom,
whose parents were driven insane by Death Eaters, was in that class:
The point? To prepare Lupin that Neville's boggart might be a Death
Eater, which would terrify not only Neville but the entire class. So
Lupin, taking the hint, asks Neville what he's most afraid of.
Ironically, it turned out to be the very professor who had just tried
to help him! No wonder Snape is angry afterwards--his help is
unacknowledged and he gets laughed at--a highly unusual experience for
Snape, who makes sure in the next few lessons that it doesn't happen
again.

Meanwhile Lupin is thrown a curve. The boggart is not a DE but a
professor, and he has no choice but to help Neville find a way to make
his boggart ridiculous. It would have been better for staff relations
to let him use his grandmother instead, but Lupin probably didn't want
to undermine Neville's relationship with his grandmother, either.
(BTW, Gran isn't as terrible as people think she is, either, but
that's a topic for another post.) So Lupin helps Neville with his
boggart, coming back to him at the end of the lesson and having him
finish off his boggart--not at all the same thing as finishing off
Professor Snape!--but he applies Snape's advice in a different way.
Who else has a boggart that we might not want the class to see? Harry,
of course. So rather than having the boggart turn into Voldemort (as
he wrongly anticipates), he skips Harry's turn. He even kindly
prevents Hermione from being laughed at for having fear of failure as
a boggart--though how he knew that in his first lesson, I don't know,
unless Dumbledore had told him about her.

Anyway, I don't think that Snape *or* Lupin should be blamed here.
IMO, they were both trying to help. And Neville did benefit by
learning to vanquish a boggart, one of the first things he's done
right in any lesson other than herbology.

Carol




From steffy07 at aol.com  Mon Mar 29 17:34:43 2004
From: steffy07 at aol.com (steffy07)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 17:34:43 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Harry=92s_anger:_neither_teen_angst_nor_channeling_Voldemort?=
In-Reply-To: <c49gv4+kaqg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c49mnj+76fj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94399

Steffy:

I've noticed that I keep forgetting to sign my posts.  I'm going to 
have to try harder to remember that...

Harry's "teen angst" is a weird issue.  I don't think it is LV 
acting through him, or it is out of character.  I think it is the 
brilliance of JKR.  Harry is a teenage boy, who is pummeled with 
emotions at every turn.  I think his emotions are normal...that 
having being said...

Neri :
> The telling part is that Harry is not just angry in OotP, he
> actually *enjoys* his friends' hurt. This is definitely not Harry.
> Our Harry doesn't have a sadistic streak in him. Well, perhaps
> towards Dudley in moments of discord, or towards Snape, but
> certainly not towards Ron and Hermione.

Steffy:

Sometimes, I think that Harry, unintentionally, hurts the ones he 
loves.  

Neri :
> Yet JKR has made a point of describing Harry "not sorry at all" or
> even actually taking pleasure in hurting his friends at least four
> times in OotP (and I might have missed more cases). The quotes are
> below for those who want to dwell on the details. Note
> especially "deep satisfaction" and "vindictive pleasure". Note
> also the words indicating the unexplained suddenness of the anger
> feelings: "for a split second", "nasty impulse", "anger that had
> just flared so unexpectedly". (snipped)

Steffy: I cut the quotes out of the post for length sake, but the 
first two examples are from before Harry left Grimmuald place for 
Hogwarts.  Harry was angry and bitter at his two best friends and a 
little jealous because they knew so much information about what was 
going on, and he was left in the dark.  Did he get some pleasure 
that Hedwig had nipped their hands? Yep. Would I have?  You better 
believe it!!  

Example:
OotP (US), Ch. 5, p. 91:
'Harry'll tell me and Hermione everything you say anyway!' said Ron
hotly. 'Won't ? won't you?' he added uncertainly, meeting Harry's
eyes.
For a split second, Harry considered telling Ron that he wouldn't
tell him a single word, that he could try a taste of being kept in
the dark and see how he liked it. But the nasty impulse vanished as
they looked at each other.
'Course I will,' Harry said.

Harry only considered it FOR A SPLIT SECOND!!  

Example:
OotP (US), Ch. 30, p. 681
'You can't tell me you've stopped having funny dreams,' Hermione said
now, 'because Ron told me you were muttering in your sleep again last
night.'
Harry threw Ron a furious look. Ron had the grace to look ashamed
of himself.
'You were only muttering a bit,' he mumbled
apologetically. 'Something about "just a bit further".'
'I dreamed I was watching you lot play Quidditch,' Harry lied
brutally. 'I was trying to get you to stretch out a bit further to
grab the Quaffle.'
Ron's ears went red. Harry felt a kind of vindictive pleasure; he
had not, of course, dreamed anything of the sort.

Ok, ok...Harry is being a really mean and vindictive here.  Harry's 
mad, but that's not an excuse.  I don't consider myself to be a mean 
person, or the nicest person in the world either.  I have a sadistic 
side, but I have a tight group of friends.  The benefit of having a 
group of friends like that is knowing that sometimes you can slip up 
and be mean, but your friends will understand.  Ron hasn't always 
been the nicest person to Harry.  As Del pointed out in her post, 
they weren't friends for awhile in GOF, but I am going to disagree 
with Del, and place most of the blame on Ron for that one.  Ron was 
mean to Harry.  Yes, when Ron came down the stairs and interuppted 
Harry while he was speaking to Sirius, it ticked Harry off, but 
think of what Ron had done.  Harry had always counted on Ron to 
believe him and be there for him, and when he needed him the most, 
up to that point, Ron was nowhere to be found, except nursing his 
bruised ego.  Don't get me wrong, I love Ron.  The point I'm trying 
to make is that they are teenage boys and girls.  Prone to make 
stupid mistakes, prone to hormonal arugements and fits of rage and 
emotion.  THe fact that JKR can make them so believeable and give 
them such a range of emotions make them loveable characters.  Who 
would believe a friendship of two teenage boys and a girl that never 
once got into an arguement and stopped speaking for a couple of 
weeks at a time?  The Trio care for each other deeply, I think there 
is much evidence to prove that, and I think that they understand 
each other, and ultimately their love for each other will bring 
about the downfall of LV and the DE's.


I hope that makes sense...
Steffy







From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 20:32:13 2004
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 20:32:13 -0000
Subject: Why DD might not want Snape for DADA job
In-Reply-To: <20040329172145.31950.qmail@web13505.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c4a14d+jnpj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94400

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ms Mo Me <fauntine_80 at y...> wrote:

> 
> Anyway, it is theorized that that DADA job is cursed. 
> No one stays longer than a year.  So, my thought is,
> maybe it really IS cursed, and DD knows this.  Since
> Snape is a member of the order and is extremely useful
> to have around, DD doesn't want to risk loosing him by
> putting him in the DADA job.
> 
> Just a thought.
> 
> ~Mo

bboy_mn:

Notice that the DADA teacher curse doesn't begin until Harry arrives
at school, and I very much suspect that once Harry leaves school the
curse will be lifted.

It's not so much that the job is really curse as it is that Harry's
presencs at the school is creating trying and difficult times. Harry's
re-entering the wizard world, also coinsides with Voldemort becoming
more active which in turn leads to Voldemort's eventual rebirth.

I think Voldemort is aware that he can't let Harry become a full grown
fully trained wizard, or his chances of ever coming back are near
non-existant. So Voldemort is making one last desperate push to
reclaim his throne, before Harry becomes too powerful.

So, between Harry re-entering the wizard world, and Voldemort in one
last desperate push to regain power, circumstance are created that
make the DADA teacher job very volatile.

Just a thought.

bboy_mn





From kiatrier at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 20:33:06 2004
From: kiatrier at yahoo.com (Kia)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 20:33:06 -0000
Subject: Ron=DD?
Message-ID: <c4a162+2h0q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94401

vmonte responds:

>If time is not fixed and events can change the timeline, as 
>Hermione
>implies, then Dumbledore may not know certain events 
>because they
>unfolded differently the first time around. I hope I'm clear!


That's not possible. Time-travel doesn't seem to work like that in 
the HP novels. Everything happens the way it happened the first 
time, because the first time is already the second time.  There is 
no first time or last time; time-travel is just the existence of a 
doppelganger in what he perceives to be the past, but which is 
still the present to his "original."  For example, Harry and 
Hermione don't alter the past in PoA, because they had already 
saved Buckbeak and Sirius, they just didn't know it, because they 
hadn't done yet. (What a sentence....) 

Hermione doesn't use the time-turner to go back to the Charms 
lesson, she missed, because she has already missed it.

The events cannot have unfolded differently the "first time", 
because that would go against the idea of time-travel in HP. 
According to logic Ron would be the clueless partner in that 
time-travel duality and not Dumbledore. Everything Ron knows, 
Dumbledore knows, too. 

Yes, you might suggest that the R=DD theory alters the current 
modus operandi of time-travel in HP, but the implications of that 
one are horrible, because it would always open the door to 
some random death eater going back into Harry's past 
(post-happy ending) and altering the story, we witnessed, into 
some parody of it.

Currently it is only possible for Voldemort to go back in time and 
get the Philosopher's Stone before Flamel destroyed, but it isn't 
possible for Voldemort to go back and tell his old self to give 
some random DE the job of killing Baby Harry.

If DD's knowledge isn't Ron's - and the events have been altered 
with the help of time-travel - then this is possible and a can of 
plotholes will be open.


Kia




From drednort at alphalink.com.au  Mon Mar 29 20:44:38 2004
From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 06:44:38 +1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape as A-hole Drill Sargeant [was: Re: Harry, Snape,Occlumency]
In-Reply-To: <c49n2u+rq7s@eGroups.com>
References: <000601c4150e$0403cd60$05030f04@dslverizon.net>
Message-ID: <40691756.31077.31905EE@localhost>

No: HPFGUIDX 94402

On 29 Mar 2004 at 17:40, cubfanbudwoman wrote:

> Are 
> 11- or 12-year-olds who see themselves as boarding school students 
> able to *learn* under the Asshole Drill Sergeant methods the way an 
> 18-year-old army recruit is?  [Don't jump down my throat anyone, 
> please, it's just a question!]  *I* think that kids that age would 
> have to know *something* of why they're being treated this way in 
> order for them to not "pull a Neville" [be so frightened he can't 
> learn] or "pull a Harry" [be so angry he won't/can't learn].  

Well, let me say this. I had teachers who were *very* Snape like. 
Very much so. Two of them. My school certainly didn't encourage 
them to be that way - but the results they achieved were so 
spectacular that they were allowed to get away with it. And I'd say 
95% of their students benefitted *incredibly* from their method of 
teaching - though most of us hated it at first, and most of us 
feared and hated those teachers at least to begin with (one of 
them, I was fortunate enough to have for a number of years - and as 
you got older and more competent, he became much more reasonable to 
work with). 

So, yeah, I think kids are able to learn under that method. Whether 
they should have to - well, that's another questions. But it really 
would be hard to argue with the results these teachers obtained.

To an extent, what we see at Hogwarts is a selective school 
environment - kids don't seem to automatically get in - Neville, we 
are told, only just made it (that's his perception - we don't know 
it's true, but it's certainly possible). If you're on the edges of 
the selection criteria for a school, I think it's almost inevitable 
that sometimes the methods commonly used in that school aren't 
going to be perfect for you. What we seem to see from Neville is a 
boy who does adequately in most subjects, very well in one, and 
very poorly in one. Overall, that sounds like a fairly average 
performance - maybe he could do better in potions with a different 
teacher - in fact, I'm sure he could - but that doesn't mean Snape 
might not be a highly effective teacher for others in the class.

Even if Harry and Neville don't do as well in potions as they could 
- there may be even more kids in those classes doing far better 
than they would with another teacher. We just don't know.


Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia




From gbannister10 at aol.com  Mon Mar 29 20:45:50 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 20:45:50 -0000
Subject: Pets
In-Reply-To: <c47vhs+94q0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4a1tu+60nk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94403

Angie Garcia: 
> << I've read all 5 books in it's Spanish version, (I live in 
Mexico),
> and now that I'm re-reading OoP, I realized about something. ?Does
> Ginny Weasly have a pet? Because she's always taking care of
> Crockshanks. ?Is it needed for every student to bring their own pet
> to Hogwarts? >>
> 
> Harry has Hedwig, Ron has first Scabbers and then Pigwidgeon, 
Neville
> has Trevor, but we never hear of Dean or Seamus having a pet. 
Hermione
> doesn't have a pet first or second year, and Lavender left her bunny
> at home where a fox could get at it. There is no sign of the Twins
> having a pet, and Lee's tarantula was new for Harry's first year
> (Lee's third). To me this means that students are not required to
> bring any pet to Hogwarts. Nowhere in the books yet have they used
> their pets in a class -- the pets being Transfigured into goblets 
was
> invented for the movie.
> 

Geoff:
"'Good,' said Hagrid, 'There's a list there of everything yeh need.'
Harry unfolded a second piece of paper he hadn't noticed the night 
before and read:
'HOGWARTS SCHOOL OF WITCHCRAFT AND WIZARDRY

Uniform.....

Set Books....

Other Equipment.....

Students may also bring an owl OR a cat OR a toad'"

(PS "Diagon Alley" pp. 52-53 UK edition)

Notice the use of the conditional tense... "may" - and it doesn't 
include rabbits or tarantulas (Lee is out of order!)




From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 20:46:55 2004
From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 20:46:55 -0000
Subject: Snape, the "Deeply Horrible Person"
In-Reply-To: <c49tk4+2ikl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4a1vv+89jt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94404

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "doliesl" <doliesl at y...> wrote:
> I agree with whoever said that "deeply horrible" do not equal 
to 'deeply evil'". 

That'd be me. :-)

But one thing that is to be learned (my "prime directive," if you 
will) in reading the whole ouvre of JKR is: Words Mean Things. She 
is ver-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-ry precise in her usage of words and she 
lets you assume she actually said something, only to find, three 
books later that she actually said something else, telling the 
reader "Ah, you thought I said XYZ , but I only said X and you 
assumed the Y & Z."

So, usually on the 2nd and 3rd readings, I dissect things (whenever 
I am not caught in the undertow of narrative delight) to see what 
may be gleaned. An example is the "deeply horrible" which most 
people automatically leap to equate with "deeply evil" or Lockhart's 
claim regarding the Homorphus charm which leads many to assume it 
means he claims to have cured werewolfism.

JKR does not like to leave us with many absolute, non-negotiable 
inarguables.

Like Crouch Jr.!Moody used to say "Constant vigilance!"

-Joe in SoFla




From dk59us at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 20:48:02 2004
From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 20:48:02 -0000
Subject: The Grangers and Fighting LV
In-Reply-To: <c49sf3+7rna@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4a222+r65j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94405

Eustace_Scrubb wrote:
<snip>
I suspect that we'll find that Ron (and Hermione and their 
families)will become targets of the DEs anyway.  <snip>

Then drjuliehoward wrote:
Given that LV previously impacted the muggle world and muggles also 
were looking for Sirius, what about the idea of muggles (namely the 
Grangers) join in fighting LV?  I have no idea what this would look 
like, given that they would not fight with magic like the members of 
the Order, but if they may be a target (as the previous post 
suggests), may they actually become an ally?  
<snip>

Eustace_Scrubb again:
I think that something (possibly an attack by DEs that either
accidentally or purposely affects muggles as well as magic folk) will
happen that will at the least require the Minister of Magic (whoever
that turns out to be) to inform the muggle Prime Minister (for the
truly literal, we're talking about Tony Blair here, folks).  There've
been some other threads lately that have speculated that magic folk
are somehow immune to common everyday muggle methods of inflicting
injury and death (i.e., bullets).  I don't think that's true in every
circumstance, but I agree that common muggle strategems would probably
be pretty useless against a group of hostile wizards/witches.

I'm not sure I expect the Grangers to be active in the fight, but I
others have suggested they may be targeted by LV.  I don't think
individual attacks on a few muggles would be enough to involve the
muggle authorities, but who knows?

Cheers,

Eustace_Scrubb




From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 20:53:13 2004
From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 20:53:13 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c4a10e+1faa@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4a2bp+fv6l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94406

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" 
<justcarol67 at y...> wrote:

> Meanwhile Lupin is thrown a curve. The boggart is not a DE but a
> professor, and he has no choice but to help Neville find a way to 
make
> his boggart ridiculous. It would have been better for staff 
relations
> to let him use his grandmother instead, but Lupin probably didn't 
want
> to undermine Neville's relationship with his grandmother, either.

One thing that I think keeps getting missed is that "Neville's 
afraid of what Neville's afraid." I don't think anyone can convince 
Neville (or anyone) to be less afraid of X and more afraid of Y.

Neville's boggart takes the shape--for whatever reason--of Snape and 
not his Gran, not the Lestranges, not LV. 

It is what it is.

-Joe in SoFla




From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 20:57:43 2004
From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 20:57:43 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Harry=92s_anger:_neither_teen_angst_nor_channeling_Voldemort?=
In-Reply-To: <c49mnj+76fj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4a2k7+9p9o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94407

I'm guessing Harry's anger is not due to any ONE thing, but a 
combination (proportions to be determined later) of all of the 
above. Being cooped up with the Dursleys, kept in varying degrees of 
darkness, being underestimated, being tormented by various other 
characters, having LV (and Snape) rummaging around his head, having 
OWLs, being 15, being an orphan, being written about as an attention-
starved showoff, etc., etc.

I'm thinking the boy's exhausted.

-Joe in SoFla, the voice of reason




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 21:04:40 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 21:04:40 -0000
Subject: Snape's house
In-Reply-To: <c46h87+tg5r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4a319+aopa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94408

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jlv230" <jlv230 at y...> wrote:
> Hello everyone ? I have really enjoyed reading your thoughts on
> the books ? it has given me a lot of interesting things to think
> about.  This is my first post so I don't know exactly how this will go
> down, or if it has been mentioned (or refuted) before, but I had a 
> thought when rereading the `Snape's worst memory' scene in OotP. 
> Following the world book day chat we know that MWPP were in 
> Gryffindor ? that's four boys.  If there are five boys per house per 
> year (which isn't necessarily true), who is the fifth?
> 
> I thought that it may perhaps be Snape, which is possibly why he got 
> on James and Sirius' nerves so much and why Snape was apparently
> so interested in what they were up to.  Snape may have wanted to get 
> into Slytherin (which explains why he is now their Head of House),  
> but what if the sorting hat placed him in Gryffindor instead? If this 
> is the case, it seems to me that Snape must have had a pretty lonely 
> time at school.  The other four boys didn't like him (two hated
> him), so he had to hang around on his own, or with a group of older 
> Slytherins who spotted his potential, took him in and persuaded him 
> to be a death eater ? which finally made him feel included.   He 
> perhaps deducts so many points from Gryffindor because he had a such 
> a rubbish time in the house and wants to get his own back on some 
> level.
> 
> I know it is a bit far-fetched, but what do you guys think?
> JLV

Although I agree that Severus would have suffered ostracism and worse
if he'd been placed in Gryffindor, I think that if the Sorting Hat had
suggested placing him there, sensing his un-Slytherinlike courage,
little Severus would have responded silently, "Not Gryffindor! Not
Gryffindor!" Severus would have known, I think, that the Gryffindors
would not appreciate his interest in the Dark Arts.

Carol




From gbannister10 at aol.com  Mon Mar 29 21:04:36 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 21:04:36 -0000
Subject: They shoot horses don't they (was Horse Feathers)
In-Reply-To: <c484qs+m4i9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4a314+jqlm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94409

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" 
<justcarol67 at y...> wrote:
> Carol wrote:
> > 
> > > Harry fell fifty feet from a broom and only broke his arm, 
> > 
> > Geoff:
> > He didn't even break his arm - you may be confusing that with COS 
> > when he gets hit by a Bludger. But there were reasons....
> > 
> > "It was as though Harry's memory was on fast forward. The 
> > lightning.... the Grim..... the Snitch.... and the Dementors....
> > 'What happened?' he said, sitting up so suddenly they all gasped.
> > 'You fell off,' said Fred. 'Must've been - what - fifty feet?'
> > 'We thought you'd died,' said Alicia, who was shaking.'"
> <snip> 
> 
> 
> Carol:
> Thanks for the correction, but my point was simply that a fifty-foot
> fall that would kill a Muggle barely fazed Harry. 

Geoff:
But you snipped the most important bit of that quote....

"He (Dumbledore) ran onto the pitch as you fell, waved his wand and 
you *sort of slowed down* before you hit the ground....'"

(POA "Grim Defeat" p.136 UK edition)

It was Dumbledore's intervention that saved Harry.

Read the incident in PS as a comparison....

"Ron turned the binoculars back on Harry. His broom was vibrating so 
hard it was almost impossible for him to hang on much longer. the 
whole crowd were on their feet watching, terrified, as the Weasleys 
flew up to try and pull Harry safely on to one of their brooms but if 
was no good - every time they got near him, the broom would jump 
higher still. They dropped lower an circled beneath him, obviously 
hoping to catch him if he fell."

(PS "Quidditch" p.140 UK edition)

Sounds as if they're pretty worried if he comes off his broom.....






From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 21:15:43 2004
From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (Phyllis)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 21:15:43 -0000
Subject: Extension of Convention Alley Early Registration Deadline
Message-ID: <c4a3lv+oss0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94410

The Convention Alley Planning Committee is pleased to announce the
extension of early registration from March 30, 2004 to April 30,
2004. Registering on or before April 30, 2004 costs $200.00
Canadian, while registering on or after May 1, 2004 costs $250.00
Canadian.

Please note that the cost figures are listed in Canadian dollars.
While the conversion is subject to change depending on the value of
the Canadian dollar, $200 Canadian currently equals approximately
$151 in American dollars (for registrations before May 1, 2004), and
$250 Canadian currently equals approximately $189 in American dollars
(for registrations between May 1, 2004 and July 1, 2004).

The registration fee provides admission to all of the daytime
programming sessions, light refreshments at Friday's meet and greet,
breakfast and lunch on Saturday and Sunday (with guest speaker Judith
Robertson at Sunday's luncheon), Saturday evening's birthday banquet
(with keynote speaker Steve Vander Ark), admission to the Prisoner of
Azkaban movie on Saturday evening and admission to such areas as the
vendor marketplace and games room. In addition, the registration fee
covers the cost of producing the conference proceedings (a
compliation of the papers presented at the conference), a copy of
which will be provided to each participant on Friday.

Convention Alley will be held at the University of Ottawa from
Friday, July 30 through Sunday, August 1, 2004. For more
information, or to register, please visit:
http://www.conventionalley.org/.

~Phyllis Morris
for the 2004 Convention Alley Planning Committee





From steffy07 at aol.com  Mon Mar 29 21:23:59 2004
From: steffy07 at aol.com (steffy07)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 21:23:59 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION:  Chapter 15 (The Hogwarts High Inquisitor)
In-Reply-To: <c48bh5+u8ur@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4a45f+3gs4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94411




> 2. The Daily Prophet quotes Percy Wesley extensively.  How 
> enthusiastic do you think his support really is?  Does he honestly 
> believe what he says, is he doing it to get ahead of the Ministry, 
> or does he really think he owes unquestioning obedience to his 
> superiors?  How does the Percy we see here square with the Percy 
we saw in PS/SS who admired Dumbledore's brilliance?

STEFFY:
I think Percy's character development is really remarkable.  Look 
back at SS and you see someone who admires DD, in Chamber he begins 
to keep secrets from his family because of fear of ridicule 
(Penelope) and begins to get more "know it all" and adheres to the 
rules more and more.  In POA, when he is headboy, he isolates 
himself from his rowdy brothers and sister and their friends, and in 
GOF, he is even more isolated.  By OOTP, I think he sees it as he 
doesn't have much of a choice but to follow the rules and the law.  
Not that his behavior in OOTP is justified, but he never fits in 
with the family dynamic the Weasleys have.  


> 3. What, if anything, do the respective grades that Snape awarded 
to 
> the Trio and to Draco (whose behavior seems to imply a passing 
> grade) tell us about Snape's teaching methods?  His motivational 
> skills?   Does he have a hidden motive?  If so, what?
>   
STEFFY:
I've always been under the opinion that ole'Snapey is harsher to the 
Trio because he has to be in order to "not blow his cover."  But, I 
think he enjoys that aspect of his spy position.  In fact, I think 
he enjoys it a lot.  I also think the grades that Harry thinks he 
gets aren't necessarily the grades he ACTUALLY gets..but thats just 
me thinking...

> 5. What did Umbridge hoped to achieve through the inspections?  
Has 
> she targeted certain professors (we learn that Flitwick's was "no 
> big deal")?  Does she have a hidden agenda beyond discrediting 
> Dumbledore, and if so, what is it?  Is JKR using Umbridge to 
lampoon 
> government interference in education?

STEFFY:
I think Umbridge just wanted to undermine DD's authority any way she 
could.  I think Flitwick and McGonagall are regarded in the 
wizarding community with high regard.  When MG rushes out to help 
Hagrid later in during the O.W.L.S and she is stunned, one of the 
wizards/withces (don't have my book) expresses outrage because it IS 
MG and there were so many stunning spells (correct me if I'm wrong 
please!).  I think it would cause stir in the community if Umbridge 
went a little "pink slip crazy" and started dismissing all the 
professors at the school, so in order to undermine DD's authority 
she dismisses the two that she feels are the least competent.  I 
also think Hagrid's dismissal/inspection was intolerance against 
half-blood wizards.  
> 

> 7. Did you guess after reading Trelawney's inspection that 
> Trelawney's hiring had to do with her first correct predicion?  
And 
> did anyone mark the fact that Trelawney's dire prediction for 
> Umbridge came true in the Forbidden Forest?
 
STEFFY:
After reading PoA and GOF I told my friend that I suspected that AND 
after reading the SS, I had some suspicians about why LV tried to 
kill Harry (which were kinda accurate) BUT he didn't believe me.  HA 
HA!!  

8. What, if anything, does the revelation of McGonagall's December 
> starting date at Hogwarts signify?  Is this a clue to a 
significant 
> backstory, or a red herring?

STEFFY:
I think it will become significant later that we learned a month 
that she started working there, and not a month that Snape 
started... 
>
9. Compare Harry's reaction to the suggestion that he teach DADA to 
> the others, to Harry's thoughts upon learning that Ron had been 
> selected prefect.  What do the differences tell us, if anything, 
> about Harry's development or his state of mind?  Has anything 
> changed?

STEFFY:
I think the fact that Harry can admit he has limits and boundaries 
make him a more believeable "hero" and admitting that he was jealous 
of Ron makes him human.  These qualities make me love his character 
even more.  
 
> 10. What do you think motivated Hermione to ask Harry to teach 
> DADA?  Did you find this to be a logical progression of her 
> character development?  Were you surprised?  What about her 
attempt 
> to gain courage by saying Voldemort's name aloud?  
> 
STEFFY:
I think more and more Hermione is proving that she is willing to 
break some rules if she needs to. IF nothing else, it is proving she 
won't be another PERCY!!





From steffy07 at aol.com  Mon Mar 29 21:34:55 2004
From: steffy07 at aol.com (steffy07)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 21:34:55 -0000
Subject: Pets
In-Reply-To: <c4a1tu+60nk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4a4pv+de7u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94412

> > 
> 
> Geoff:
> "'Good,' said Hagrid, 'There's a list there of everything yeh 
need.'
> Harry unfolded a second piece of paper he hadn't noticed the night 
> before and read:
> 'HOGWARTS SCHOOL OF WITCHCRAFT AND WIZARDRY
> 
> Uniform.....
> 
> Set Books....
> 
> Other Equipment.....
> 
> Students may also bring an owl OR a cat OR a toad'"
> 
> (PS "Diagon Alley" pp. 52-53 UK edition)
> 
> Notice the use of the conditional tense... "may" - and it doesn't 
> include rabbits or tarantulas (Lee is out of order!)

BUT...
If you are going to go by that, then Scabbers is also not allowed.  
He isn't an owl or cat or toad.  Why was he allowed?  Percy had him 
before Ron, and we KNOW Percy would not have hidden a pet for 3 or 4 
years that was against the rules!




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Mon Mar 29 21:35:44 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 21:35:44 -0000
Subject: Snape as A-hole Drill Sargeant [was: Re: Harry, Snape,Occlumency]
In-Reply-To: <40691756.31077.31905EE@localhost>
Message-ID: <c4a4rg+ku9g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94413

Siriusly Snapey Susan:
> > Are 11- or 12-year-olds who see themselves as boarding school 
> > students able to *learn* under the Asshole Drill Sergeant 
> > methods the way an 18-year-old army recruit is?  [Don't jump 
> > down my throat anyone, please, it's just a question!]  *I* think 
> > that kids that age would have to know *something* of why they're 
> > being treated this way in order for them to not "pull a Neville" 
> > [be so frightened he can't learn] or "pull a Harry" [be so angry 
> > he won't/can't learn].  

Shaun Hately wrote: 
> Well, let me say this. I had teachers who were *very* Snape like. 
> Very much so. Two of them. My school certainly didn't encourage 
> them to be that way - but the results they achieved were so 
> spectacular that they were allowed to get away with it. And I'd 
> say 95% of their students benefitted *incredibly* from their 
> method of teaching - though most of us hated it at first, and most 
> of us feared and hated those teachers at least to begin with (one 
> of them, I was fortunate enough to have for a number of years - 
> and as you got older and more competent, he became much more 
> reasonable to work with). 
> So, yeah, I think kids are able to learn under that method. 
> Whether they should have to - well, that's another questions. But 
> it really would be hard to argue with the results these teachers 
> obtained.
<snip>
> Even if Harry and Neville don't do as well in potions as they 
> could - there may be even more kids in those classes doing far 
> better than they would with another teacher. We just don't know.

Siriusly Snapey Susan again:
Two quick points & a question, Shaun.

1)  You are very right that we don't know how many of the other kids 
in Snape's class are doing.  

2)  I think you may be hitting on something important about your 
experience w/ those two teachers *and* about Snape as well.  You 
learned *a lot* from those two teachers.  And, unless I'm mistaken, 
one thing we DON'T hear the Hogwarts kids saying is that Snape 
doesn't know the materials he's teaching.  On the contrary, I think 
they recognize his gifts as a potions master.  In my experience as a 
teacher, and thinking of the one colleague in my school who 
was "Snape-like" in his "tyranny", one of the key reasons why kids 
put up w/ that teacher's antics is that he was so knowledgable about 
the subject.  If the teacher was incompetent *and* a tyrant, they 
never would have, and I suspect if Snape didn't know his stuff, 
there would be a lot more open protesting going on.

Q:  Since you didn't mention this part, how old were you when you 
had those two Snape-like teachers?  It may not matter, but I'm just 
curious.  Your comment about working w/ the teacher over time makes 
me wonder if I'm not somewhat right about the ability of younger 
kids (11, 12 or so) being less able to handle Asshole Drill Sergeant 
teachers.

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 21:38:10 2004
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 21:38:10 -0000
Subject: Snape as A-hole Drill Sargeant [was: Re: Harry, Snape,Occlumency]
In-Reply-To: <40691756.31077.31905EE@localhost>
Message-ID: <c4a502+l46j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94414

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" <drednort at a...> 
wrote:
> 
> Even if Harry and Neville don't do as well in potions as they could 
> - there may be even more kids in those classes doing far better 
> than they would with another teacher. We just don't know.
> 
> 
Oh, but it does not really matter for story line purposes, right?

I mean, so what if for some abstract children in Hogwarts Snape's 
teaching method may work. It does not work for Harry or Neville, IMO 
(at least untill I see any specific positive results, I am not 
persuaded).

JKR shows us only some potions classes and I think that based on them 
we are supposed to form our opinion of Snape's teaching abilities. :o)

Or maybe not, but that's what I do, anyway. :)


See, no matter how much I adore JRK work and emotionally attached to 
her characters, I don't think that she means to hide a lot from us in 
terms of character development (plot twist is a totally different 
story, of course), therefore I allow myself to be manipulated by her.


If somebody in real life would tell me that eleven year old children 
could be reincarnation of all evil, I would have a strong desire to 
slap that person silly.

When I read these books, I realise perfectly well that Slytherin 
house (except Snape, whom I am not so sure was a Slyth) is a 
caricature, but at the same time I have absolutely no desire to root 
for them, because JKR did not show me yet any good Slytherin so far 
(I hope it changes in book 6).

Why should I imagine that good Slytherins exist, when I see other 
characters which appeal to me much stronger to root for. I just don't 
bother.

Same with Snape teaching abilities, Snape ability to feel anything 
except hate to Gryffs, etc. 

Alla




From vmonte at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 21:43:32 2004
From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 21:43:32 -0000
Subject: Snape, the "Deeply Horrible Person"
In-Reply-To: <c48mpc+bnva@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4a5a4+eund@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94415

J Spencer wrote:

...So it seems to me entirely possible that JKR writes (or talks to 
Rickman) with the conviction that Snape is a horrible person, and 
because that fact is self-evident to her, she interprets her own 
words as supporting it...whereas that fact comes across as clear to 
some of us, but not to others, because for whatever reason we didn't 
pick up the "horrible" impression from the beginning.
 
On another tangent, I also wonder whether the phrase "deeply 
horrible" is in reference only to Snape's personality, or to his 
story as a whole...not only his thoughts and actions, but also 
perhaps the things that have happened to him?


vmonte responds:
It's ok to like Snape's character even if he is "deeply horrible" you 
know. 
JKR knows all of Snape's secrets so I think that when she states that 
he is "deeply horrible" -- it's because he is.  

I think that there are many times in the books where JKR makes the 
point that people can choose who they become (regardless of their 
past or where they came from). For example: Harry chooses to be in 
Gryffindor instead of Slytherin! 
I don't think that she is talking about the horrible things that made 
Snape who he is (although I'm sure those things helped to make him 
who he is), but the deeply horrible person and life he chooses to be 
and have.   
Personally I would rather that Snape (who is an interesting and 
complex character) be the true villian, and not Voldemort, who I 
think is a joke.





From steffy07 at aol.com  Mon Mar 29 21:53:25 2004
From: steffy07 at aol.com (steffy07)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 21:53:25 -0000
Subject: Evaluating Snape (was: Re: Lupin's resentment )
In-Reply-To: <c49bv4+77ia@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4a5sl+depn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94416

> Potioncat:
> Or he could be a registered animagus.  I think it is interesting 
> that Hermione mentions 7 (is that the right number?) registered 
> Animagi this century...but she doesn't tell us who or what they 
are. 
> She does like to keep things to herself.
> 
> Potioncat, who marvels at our abilily to take JKR's comments in 
> whatever way we choose.


I think that if Hermione had seen Snape's name, she would have 
mentioned it to Harry or Ron by now.  Granted, she didn't mention 
Lupin to them in POA, but they were fighting, and she did say 
several times "haven't you figured it out yet?" (paraphrased).  I 
don't think Hermione could have kept that juicy secret from them 
this long.  

Steffy




From jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net  Mon Mar 29 21:54:06 2004
From: jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net (Robert Jones)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 21:54:06 -0000
Subject: Is Hermione Supposed to be a Genius?
Message-ID: <c4a5tu+trqv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94417

Some of the replies to the question "Why does Ron have a crush on 
Hermione?" expressed surprise that I even asked that question 
because Hermione is so great.  (Of course, if that was all there was 
to it, why doesn't Harry have a crush?  What's wrong with Harry?  Is 
Harry superficial for being attracted only to the pretty Cho?  Why 
is Harry oblivious to Hermione's charms, both magical and 
nonmagical?)

They also make Hermione out to be a genius.  And I want to object to 
that now.  Hermione is definitely the best student in school, but I 
think it is just a matter of her "bookish" interests, not that she 
is the greatest witch of her generation.  Maybe all the magic stuff 
came naturally to James and Sirius, but Hermione studies all the 
time and is always running off to the library whenever there is a 
question.  But that does not mean she has a particularly great IQ or 
magical IQ ? it is just how she handles things.

She just likes school and learning.  In POA, she was jealous of 
Ron's vacation in Egypt because of what she could have learned there 
and rewriting her essay from what she learned in France.  And she 
took every class in Book 3 and nearly studied herself to death.

And it doesn't mean she is necessarily that great at "practical" 
magic.  She certainly has advanced since the end of Book 1 where she 
did not know what to do about the Devil's Snare until Harry told her 
and she dismissed her own school work as "books!" and "cleverness."  
(Incidentally, studies of valedictorians in the USA show that they 
do not do any better after school either in business or socially 
than others ? they just could "do school" well.)

But that does not mean she is a genius.  And she did make two big 
mistakes in OOTP : the hats she is knitting can't free the House 
Elves and she left the DA list in the Room of Requirement for 
Umbridge to find.  (I've discussed those in other posts.)

I think JKR said it best in an interview in Time magazine a couple 
of years ago:  "Hermione is me, near enough.  A caricature of me 
when I was younger.  I wasn't that clever.  But I was that annoying 
on occasion.  Girls are very tolerant of her because she is not an 
uncommon female type ? the little girl who feels plain and hugely 
compensates by working very hard and wanting to get everything just 
so."






From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Mar 29 21:56:13 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 21:56:13 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c4a2bp+fv6l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4a61t+jl52@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94418

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jmgarciaiii" 
<jmgarciaiii at y...> wrote:

> One thing that I think keeps getting missed is that "Neville's 
> afraid of what Neville's afraid." I don't think anyone can 
>convince Neville (or anyone) to be less afraid of X and more 
>afraid of Y.

I'm not sure this is true.  
***
Harry thought....What scared him most in the world?
His first thought was Lord Voldemort -- a Voldemort returned to 
full strength. But before he had even begun to plan  a 
counterattack on a boggart-Voldemort, a horrible image came 
floating to the surface of his mind.
***
PoA ch 7

Harry  does have more than one fear in his mind, and it isn't the 
first one that is the scariest. I think part of boggart-fighting 
technique is to imagine  the form that you expect the boggart to 
take in your conscious mind before you approach it. At any rate, 
Lupin instructs the class to do this, and we don't hear anyone 
complaining that the boggart took a form they didn't expect. 

I think that would explain what happened to poor Molly in OOP. 
She must have dealt with boggarts many times in the past and 
she thought she knew what form the boggart would take. She 
neglected to bring a clear image of her  fear to the surface of her 
mind.  Left to its own devices, the boggart pulled the images of 
her dead children from her subconscious. I am sure that she 
wouldn't have challenged the boggart if she *knew* 
 what she was going to see... how would you make the 
dead bodies of your children funny? Eurrgh!

Pippin





From carolynwhite2 at aol.com  Mon Mar 29 22:02:13 2004
From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 22:02:13 -0000
Subject: Remember Vauxhall Rd ? (was Re: The Grangers and Fighting LV)
In-Reply-To: <c49sf3+7rna@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4a6d5+sjat@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94419

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "drjuliehoward" 
<drjuliehoward at y...> wrote:

Given that LV previously impacted the muggle world and muggles also 
were looking for Sirius, what about the idea of muggles (namely the 
Grangers) join in fighting LV?  I have no idea what this would look 
like, given that they would not fight with magic like the members of 
the Order, but if they may be a target (as the previous post 
suggests), may they actually become an ally?  
> 
> Just a thought.

Carolyn:
Aha.. an opening for my Vauxhall Rd theory ! Its my belief that 
muggles are also working with Tom Riddle and Lucius Malfoy. Muggles 
and wizards have intermarried down the centuries, right ? I find it 
extremely unlikely that it hasn't occurred to a wicked muggle or two 
that they could use a bit of magic for their own purposes.

Based entirely on the evidence of Tom Riddle's diary being a muggle 
artefact bought in an area of London he had no reason to be in 
(because it was wartime at the time he bought it, and if he did live 
at the Stockwell orphanage, it had been evacuated - we have verified 
this), but which IS near the Houses of Parliament, my theory is he 
was there to meet a muggle. An important muggle, either in the House 
of Commons, the House of Lords or otherwise connected with the 
government or military of the time. See the lengthy thread starting 
86517 investigating the chronology, the topography.....the 
opportunity.

This muggle bought Tom the diary and various other school things, and 
in fact has been funding Tom through Hogwarts. A benefactor, who 
knows exactly who Tom is, and his Salazar ancestry, and who is also 
in a position to help Tom Riddle's muggle father and grandparents out 
of an embarassing spot of bother when the child is born, as 
unfortunately, Tom's actual muggle parentage don't see it this way - 
they are appalled to find their son has married a local witch (bit 
like Vernon and Petunia), and want it all hushed up.

And why should a senior-ranking British muggle want to do this ? 
Well, its good old right-wing conspiracy theory. Wartime, a state of 
flux between the social classes, the old order going forever, that 
sort of stuff. This muggle, who has done much reading in the dark 
arts and necromancy, thinks that this orphan boy, with his special 
powers might be a weapon to win that struggle for his side. Possibly 
even envisaged an alliance between pureblood WW and pureblood 
muggles. 

In this sense, Tom Riddle is not half-blood at all. His wealthy 
muggle parentage puts him in their ruling classes, and his Salazar 
parentage puts him in the WW ruling class (in the view of people like 
the Blacks and the Malfoys at least). He is the classic Pretender to 
the throne - all the looks, the heritage, but hasn't got the actual 
job yet. A magnet for the disaffected and wannabee king-makers.

However, Tom doesn't prove so easy to control as he grows up; he is 
far more powerful than anyone realises. He kills his father and 
grandparents and goes off to study dark arts on his own, becomes Lord 
Voldemort. He ends up with a deeply ambiguous attitude to muggles. On 
the one hand he hates and loathes them, spits on and on about 
mudbloods and purebloods, yet he knows his own background, and knows 
who has supported him when he was a child. He felt justified in the 
murders he committed, but not indifferent to the support of 'dark' 
muggles perhaps.

Muggle/WW liaison has continued down the years, although the plot 
suffered a serious setback in 1945 with the defeat of the dark wizard 
Grindewald by DD (aka Hitler ?? Many have speculated).

Lucius Malfoy ('my slippery friend') is the current negotiator, using 
Fudge and his contacts at the highest level in the muggle government 
to continue the plotting, and Voldie is aware of this. His view is 
probably that the muggles might be useful in some way at the current 
juncture, but he will kill them when he actually gains power. The 
muggles probably think they can nuke him if necessary when he has won 
them power.

So, yes, I think the Grangers might well be drawn in, in the guise of 
ordinary decent citizens trying to do the right thing. Don't rate 
their chances much, (unless they can get Voldie on to a dentist 
chair - that would be seriously funny..), but I feel the final 
conflict will bring the muggle and wizard worlds into battle 
together, on both the evil and the good sides.








From mnaperrone at aol.com  Mon Mar 29 17:34:09 2004
From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 17:34:09 -0000
Subject: Snape, the "Deeply Horrible Person"
In-Reply-To: <c473rt+5luh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c49mmh+ibt6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94420

Jen Reese:
> I'm re-reading JKR interviews and ran across this one at Quick 
> Quotes:
> 
> Q: Who's your favorite character besides Harry Potter?
> 
> A: It's very hard to choose. It's fun to write about Snape because 
> he's a deeply horrible person. Hagrid is someone I'd love to meet. 
> 
> http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/1999/0999-
> familyeducation-abel.htm
> 
> I'm not a huge Snape fan and this quote has probably been analyzed 
> to death. But the comment caught my eye and I wanted to hear other 
> opinions.
> 
> This seems like a *very* strong negative characterization to me. It 
> also doesn't seem particulary consistent with the canon we have so 
> far. Snape is presented as complex, bitter, angry, etc. But I've 
> never seen his behavior as "deeply horrible" in the way of, say, 
> LV's behavior.


Ally:

In that same interview, doesn't she say that Snape is deeply horrible 
BUT that there is more to him than meets the eye and that we should 
keep an eye on him?  Because she has said all those things about 
Snape in one early interview.  Then, in a later interview after OOTP, 
she says "you shouldn't think him too nice" and, again, "he's worth 
keeping an eye on."

I think she's being fairly cagey about Snape, b/c the "you should 
keep an eye on him" could be construed fairly positively in the 
context of "there's more to him than meets the eye" and less 
positively in the "you shouldn't think him too nice" context.  So, I 
don't put a ton of stock in her quotes on his character, except to 
conclude that Snape will play a big part in the next two books.  

I believe she does think Snape is horrible because he abuses his 
position of power over his students, doesn't seem to have any 
positive emotional attachments and is generally mean-spirited.  Will 
he be redeemed?  If you mean, will he change his personality and 
become a kinder, gentler Snape?  I think not.  If you mean, will he 
turn out to have been working for DD all along, I think yes.

To me, Snape turning out to be a good person but not a very nice 
person is most in keeping with the kind of emotional complexity JKR 
likes to show in her characters.  I think he can remain a "deeply 
horrible person" and still help the Order win the war.
   
Ally





From mnaperrone at aol.com  Mon Mar 29 17:49:28 2004
From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 17:49:28 -0000
Subject: From JK Rowling World Book Day Chat - 3/4/04
In-Reply-To: <08ed01c4152f$33c967a0$75d6f943@hppav>
Message-ID: <c49nj8+al9c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94421

vmonte:
> Is anyone starting to think that someone else was at 
> Godric's Hollow besides the Potters and Voldemort? 

Kimberly:
> I do think someone else was there. I have this sneaky 
> suspicion that it was a certain Potions teacher, perhaps 
> in the form of a bat. I don't think Voldemort was aware that 
> another party was there. I think they were small enough to 
> be unseen. Would make it ideal for a bat to be there, hidden.    
> Now, why Snape would have been at the Potters is anyone's 
> supposition. If there was an indication that Voldemort was 
> headed to the Potters' perhaps Snape went to warn them.   

I think this is likely the case, with the possible exception of the 
bat thing.

When Snape goes to "rescue" Harry from Sirius, he yells at Harry and 
says something to the extent of:  I tried to warn your father about 
Sirius and he should have been grateful, but he refused to believe me 
and now he's dead and you're going to wind up the same way.
[paraphrasing there just a bit]

If Snape thought James wound up dead b/c he didn't listen to Snape 
about Sirius, it makes sense to me that he tried to warn them at 
Godric's Hollow.  What else could it have been?  Maybe Snape got 
there just before Voldie and James sent him packing?


Ally




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Mar 29 22:13:24 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 22:13:24 -0000
Subject: Is Neville getting better at Potions?
Message-ID: <c4a724+1103t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94423

All of this talk about how Snape's teaching methos work   with 
Neville made me notice something. In OOP, Neville doesn't 
seem to have nearly as much trouble in potions class as usual. 
He doesn't blow up any cauldrons, IIRC, and there is at least one 
session where no mention is made of any Neville problems at 
all.

I am wondering if Neville simply does better with the instructions 
all written on the board OWL style, instead of having to keep track 
of Snape's  oral instructions.

An earlier poster said she didn't think that Neville could have a 
magical learning disability because he does better in his other 
classes. But he's a bright kid, and he may be able to 
compensate better when he's not distracted by his fear of the 
teacher and he's not being expected to follow verbal instructions. 
The other class where he seems to have the most trouble is 
Transfiguration, and McGonagall's teaching method seems to 
be as verbal as Snape's, minus the sarcasm. 

In Herbology and CoMC where everything is done by 
demonstration, and in History of Magic and Divination where 
there is written instruction as well as verbal, Neville seems to do 
all right.

Of course he had a problem in flying class, but that was a 
longstanding fear, considering that his Gran never let him near a 
broomstick and Uncle Algie had a habit of dropping him from 
heights.

Thoughts?

Pippin




From pulpficlet at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 18:30:20 2004
From: pulpficlet at yahoo.com (pulpficlet)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 18:30:20 -0000
Subject: Snape, the "Deeply Horrible Person"
In-Reply-To: <c4853v+rmnr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c49pvs+e7ki@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94424

Jen wrote:

>Snape is presented as complex, bitter, angry, etc. But 
>I've never seen his behavior as "deeply horrible" in the way of, 
>say, LV's behavior.

But Snape was a DE!  Doesn't that alone make him horrible, at least 
at some point in his life?  Besides, we don't know that Snape isn't 
deeply horrible right now -- he might be betraying Dumbledore, and he 
might have turned spy for all the wrong reasons.

Paula






From stevejjen at earthlink.net  Mon Mar 29 22:19:42 2004
From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 22:19:42 -0000
Subject: Snuffing Out Snape (Re: Snape, the "Deeply Horrible Person")
In-Reply-To: <c49mmh+ibt6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4a7du+88dr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94425

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mnaper2001" <mnaperrone at a...> 
wrote:
>> I believe she does think Snape is horrible because he abuses his 
> position of power over his students, doesn't seem to have any 
> positive emotional attachments and is generally mean-spirited.  
Will 
> he be redeemed?  If you mean, will he change his personality and 
> become a kinder, gentler Snape?  I think not.  If you mean, will 
he 
> turn out to have been working for DD all along, I think yes.
> 
> To me, Snape turning out to be a good person but not a very nice 
> person is most in keeping with the kind of emotional complexity 
JKR 
> likes to show in her characters.  I think he can remain a "deeply 
> horrible person" and still help the Order win the war.


Jen: For Snape to be redeemed in the end, he needs to be dead. I 
can't even tell you why I feel this way. I don't hate the character--
he's an interesting read, and has played an important role in 
Harry's life and magical development, if not a particularly 
*pleasant* role.

Does anyone else feel this way and if so, please explain it to me?!?

So, no, I don't want to see a kinder, gentler Snape (yuck--can you 
imagine?). I do think it's important he play a pivotal role in 
assisting Harry one more time with LV, then he meets his maker.

Jen, suddenly so *bloodthirsty*....




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 22:26:05 2004
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 22:26:05 -0000
Subject: Snuffing Out Snape (Re: Snape, the "Deeply Horrible Person")
In-Reply-To: <c4a7du+88dr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4a7pt+i9g7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94426

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" <stevejjen at e...> 
wrote:
> Jen: For Snape to be redeemed in the end, he needs to be dead. I 
> can't even tell you why I feel this way. I don't hate the character-
-
> he's an interesting read, and has played an important role in 
> Harry's life and magical development, if not a particularly 
> *pleasant* role.
> 
> Does anyone else feel this way and if so, please explain it to me?!?
> 
> So, no, I don't want to see a kinder, gentler Snape (yuck--can you 
> imagine?). I do think it's important he play a pivotal role in 
> assisting Harry one more time with LV, then he meets his maker.
> 
> Jen, suddenly so *bloodthirsty*....

Honestly, I did not feel this way before OoP, I swear. :o) But now I 
do, not all the times, no, but quite often.

I may change my mind though after book 6. 

I still prefer him to find some peace, not to be dead ( but 
preferably as far away from Hogwarts or ANY school as possible)

Alla




From rredordead at aol.com  Mon Mar 29 22:28:06 2004
From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 22:28:06 -0000
Subject: Snape outing Harry as Parselmouth (was Re: If DD knows, then why..?)
In-Reply-To: <c48cvf+smao@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4a7tm+kl7n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94427

Mandy wrote:
<snip> Not to mention Draco didn't seem to get in 
> > to trouble using it, nor did it cause a stur among the children 
> > watching. There would have been some kind of reaction if it was 
> > something that unusual to come from a 13-year-old boy.
> 
> Bookworm:
> (CoS p194 US): "... a long black snake shot out of it [Harry's 
> wand], fell heavily onto the floor between them, and raised itself, 
> ready to strike. There were screams as the crowd backed swiftly 
> away, clearing the floor." <argument between Snape and Lockhart 
over who would get rid of it> then, "...there was a loud bang; the 
snake, instead of vanishing, flew ten feet into the air and fell back 
to the floor with a loud smack. Enraged, hissing furiously, it 
> slithered straight toward Justin Finch-Fletchley and raised itself 
> again, fangs exposed, poised to strike." After Harry told the snake 
> to calm down: "Snape, too was looking at Harry in an unexpected 
way: It was a shrewd and calculating look, and Harry didn't like it. 
He was also dimly aware of an ominous muttering all around the walls."

> So there was a reaction from the other students to the appearance 
of the snake, but that fear was overshadowed by the revelation of 
Harry speaking Parceltongue. And Draco wouldn't get in trouble 
because he could claim honestly that his Head of House had told him 
what to do. 


Mandy here:
But the question raised was; Was it unusual for Draco, a 12-year-old 
wizard, to conger the Serpensortia spell? I was arguing that it was 
not, as there would have been a stir from the kids if it was.  

You point out that the stir that occurred most likely came from the 
appearance of a snake in the room, not how it got there, and I agree 
with you. I also agree that Harry's Parceltongue overshadowed 
everything else that happened in that class that day.  But I still do 
not think it is usual for the Serpensortia spell to come from the 
mouth of a 12-year-old wizard.  What Snape did was put the idea in 
Draco mind to use it, he didn't tell Draco how to do it.  

Whether Snape did this deliberately because he or DD had suspicions 
about Harry being a Parceltongue?  Who knows?  I wouldn't be at all 
surprised if either DD, or Snape, or both did it to deliberately out 
Harry's unusual power. 

Mandy







From weirdsister06 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 20:15:42 2004
From: weirdsister06 at yahoo.com (weirdsister06)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 20:15:42 -0000
Subject: Use of brooms
Message-ID: <c4a05e+7iu1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94428

Does flying a broomstick involve the use of magic?  

Underage wizards are able to fly during school holidays without 
reprimand from the Improper Use of Magic Office.  Ron and his 
brothers practice quidditch, the little children flew mini-brooms 
during the Quidditch World Cup, and Harry escaped from Privet Dr on 
his broom in OotP.  If flying a broom does not involve magic, and 
the broom is merely a mode of transport like a portkey or floo 
powder, can muggles fly?  What if a muggle picked up a portkey or 
tried to use floo powder?





From Ladycat16 at aol.com  Mon Mar 29 21:56:08 2004
From: Ladycat16 at aol.com (Ladycat16 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 16:56:08 -0500
Subject: Ron=DD?
Message-ID: <7B49B27A.76FA03DC.02576AF9@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94429

Hello again. I am fasinated by this theory.I hope this make sense. Since we really don't know much about Dumbledore's past I figured this might work out. 

Dumbledore might not have existed. I mean he existed just not to that degree that he is shown. Like Dumbledor was a regular guy but Ron ended up jumping to his place back while he was at school. Which could anwser the fact that DD=Ron didn't become the potions master but the Transifiguration Prof. (because if I remember right was ron particularly good at that)

Ron might have went back into time, for one reason or another, something might have happend that Ron didn't like there for went back in time. Ending up going to far back. Back in the past he knew about Flamel hooked up with him, did all the things. Only to realize that he once he got back up to "his" time that, he realized that he couldn't change things, only help out the situation.  

I hoped that made sense if not I am terribly sorry for taking up time.

Tiffany





From teshara at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 22:13:01 2004
From: teshara at yahoo.com (Chelle)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 22:13:01 -0000
Subject: Ollivander a Dragon Slayer?
Message-ID: <c4a71d+t1et@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94430

Ollivander had always been a person that has gotten my attention. He
makes all the wands for everyone, we know that. He collects the
finest things for his materials: Phoenix feathers, unicorn hair,
dragon heartstring....

Dragon heartstring?

OK, Fawkes is bound to shed feathers from time to time. I'm sure
others like him do the same. 

Unicorn hair might be difficult, considering they don't like men.
(Come to think of it, I don't think I'd like it if a mad little man
hopped out of the bushes to pinch my bottom, either.)

But dragon heartstring? Is Ollivander a dragonslayer?

My ex had this theory that Ollivander and the original Ollivander on
his sign are one and the same.

Any thoughts?

~ Chelle





From enigma_only at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 29 22:17:21 2004
From: enigma_only at hotmail.com (fiondavhar)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 22:17:21 -0000
Subject: Ottery St-Catchpole and Wizard War II
Message-ID: <c4a79h+b2kq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94431

    Ottery St-Catchpole, the Weasleys home village, has been 
mentioned by name several times throughout the HP books. It's 
wizarding inhabitants were also stated quite clearly in GoF; The 
Weasleys (obviously), The Diggorys, The Lovegoods, and the Fawcetts. 
   
Obviously three of these four familys have already played a major 
part in Wizard War II - the Weasleys have been involved from the very 
begenning, the Diggorys lost a son to the cause, and the Lovegoods 
have made their obvious contributions (ie the article and the events 
at the ministry of magic in OoTP). The only family we have not heard 
from much as of yet are the Fawcetts, who, IMO, are being set up to 
become major characters, as they have been mentioned many times. 

So far as I can tell, there must be two Fawcett girls (at least) one 
in Ravenclaw (who tried to cross Dumbledores age line and came out 
with a beard) and one in Hufflepuff (who was blasted out of a rose 
bush by Snape). I believe I have heard them mentioned before as well, 
but I don't have time to re-read the series right now and make sure.

In GoF, the Weasleys are mentioned first (being involved in all the 
books), followed by the Diggorys, whom they meet with on Stoatshead 
Hill; then the Lovegoods, then the Fawcetts. This is, coincidentally
(???) also the order in which the familys make major contributions to 
the books. The Diggorys show up in book four, the Lovegoods make 
their first in-the-flesh appearance in book five - it would logically 
follow that the Fawcetts may become major characters in book six. Who 
knows, maybe it is with one of these girls that Harry will have a 
little romance; we already know that Ms. Fawcett of Hufflepuff isn't 
opposed to a little kissing hehehe.

Perhaps, after Harry's "shortest stay yet" in Privet Drive, he will 
retire to the Weasley's for the rest of the summer, where these four 
wizarding families (the only ones in the area, according to GoF) will 
be drawn together to fend off an attack, likley of the Death Eater 
nature. Unless, of course, there is some greater chaos already at 
work against which they will have to defend themselves. The Diggory's 
will certainly be on the boat to fight against Voldemort after the 
loss of their son!

 I am reluctant to theorize more without some sort of list reaction 
to build on, but it seems to me that JKR has laid the map very well 
for something big to happen in Ottery-St.Catchpole. 

Reactions, anyone?

Bonny







From vmonte at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 22:37:43 2004
From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 22:37:43 -0000
Subject: Ron=DD?
In-Reply-To: <c4a162+2h0q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4a8fn+qcq4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94432

Kia wrote: 
That's not possible. Time-travel doesn't seem to work like that in 
the HP novels. Everything happens the way it happened the first 
time, because the first time is already the second time.  There is 
no first time or last time; time-travel is just the existence of a 
doppelganger in what he perceives to be the past, but which is 
still the present to his "original."  For example, Harry and 
Hermione don't alter the past in PoA, because they had already 
saved Buckbeak and Sirius, they just didn't know it, because they 
hadn't done yet. (What a sentence....) 

vmonte responds:
I'm making up this whole scenario to illustrate my point (I know that 
I may be completely wrong about how time travel works but why time 
travel in the first place if you don't want to change events?)

Lets say that Ron=DD.  Something in the future is going to happen to 
Ron to blast him into the past.  Ron then assumes a new identity: 
Dumbledore. Because DD is really Ron he knows that in the future his 
friend Harry will be born and Voldemort will try to kill him and his 
family.  DD tries to make sure this doesn't happen again, so in this 
timeline he assigns Sirius as their keeper (the first time around the 
Potters may not have had any keeper/protector). But for whatever 
reason, Sirius decides to change the keeper to Peter. (DD has no idea 
about what Sirius has done.) Peter is bad, and the Potters are killed 
again. 

DD also knows (because he was once Ron) that Harry will be very upset 
when Sirius gets killed.  So DD saves Sirius's life by having 
Hermione and Harry time travel to save him (and Buckbeak). 
DD is happy -- he has saved Sirius (the first time around Sirius 
died).  But Sirius is Sirius and he is not a careful person. He 
starts putting himself in danger. DD starts to worry again. So when 
he has the chance he forces Sirius stay at Order headquarters.  But 
Sirius is Sirius and he doesn't like being trapped, and he also feels 
badly that he isn't helping the Order (Snape even pushes Sirius more 
by basically calling him a coward--and people don't think that Snape 
manipulates people?!). 
So, Sirius leaves Headquarters -- and is killed again!!!

DD is learning that he cannot always change fate.  Sirius was going 
to die no matter what -- because Sirius was Sirius.

vmonte 




From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net  Mon Mar 29 22:45:14 2004
From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 16:45:14 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape as A-hole Drill Sargeant [was: Re: Harry, Snape,Occlumency]
References: <c49n2u+rq7s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000e01c415df$8067e7c0$05030f04@dslverizon.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 94433

{Siriusly Snapey Susan:}
Anne, you have done an *excellent* job of explaining this, and I have
no doubt that you are right about why Asshole Drill Sergeants behave
as they do.


{Silverthorne}
Thanks, I was trying my best to explain the technique, as I said...^^


{Siriusly Snapey Susan:}
The *only* potential quibbles I have with this are:
1) Those who are in RW military training/school most often *know*
that they are heading into training specifically for the potentiality
OF WAR.  They are also legally adults.  [Or in the case of military
academies for teens, know it's a *military* setting.]  The Hogwarts
kids are **eleven** when they arrive and believe they are going to
boarding school to learn basic WW subjects.  I would think that NOT
being up front with the students about the war and also not taking
into account their ages could potentially **undo** the good of
Snape's giving them practice dealing w/ nasty people.  Do you know
what I mean?



{Silverthorne}
I know exactly what you mean, and I don't disagree with you...then again, I
think that that's one of the underlying tragedies that Rowling tries to hint
at (and there's a paralelle in our own RL outlook as a society
nowadays...think back to the shock of 9/11 and I think you'll get what I
mean)

These kids really *are* unprepared for something like Snape. No argument
there either...

To argue the point for the average WW resident, and why their kids aren't
ready, why *should* they  expect someone like Snape to have access to their
children?

Supposedly, the major 'evil' of the WW has been dead and gone for over 11
years. Life *should* be easy now, peaceful (or as peaceful as the WW
gets...^^;),  and expectations are that you should be allowed to live your
life without some nasty ass coming and making it miserable. Certainly, the
Snapes of the world are not considered something to prepare against. Why
should we prepare? They're gone, right? ('They're' meaning Voldemort, the DE
and people like Snape). And those neanderthal dinosaours that still hang
around with that 'tude will soon be a thing of the past, right? We can get
rid of them easy now...sheer numbers of 'good guys' alone should do it...

It's a nice thought, but like in RL...people living in peace forget one
thing.

There's folks out there that don't share the outlook. A lot of them. They
havent all died, and they haven't gone for good. They're out there...waiting
for their chance. And even worse, in the WW one of those people is
Voldemort...you got rid of him once..and he's supposedly gone...but before
him was Grimwauld(?), who Dumbledore had to deal with. No doubt before
*that* there were other wizards that were the 'greatest evil of their time'.
So even if Vodly didn;t come back....someone will take his place. Nature, as
they say, abhors a void. And the world, life, reality runs in cycles and
checks and balances...

It's peaceful now...but  things cycle around. History proves that out time
and again. And unfortunately, in Harry's story, they have...to the worst
possible scenario....:(. Fudge is the ultimate expression of not realizing
this,  and the shock that follows when you *do* realize that your world is
not as safe as you thought it was, usually by a violent upheaval. The wolves
never left--they just circled around to the back door instead of waiting for
you at the front one....



{Siriusly Snapey Susan}
It'sSnape has been cruel & nasty since the beginning.  Are 11- or
12-year-olds who see themselves as boarding school students able to *learn*
under the Asshole Drill Sergeant methods the way an 18-year-old army recruit
is?  [Don't jump down my throat anyone, please, it's just a question!]  *I*
think that kids that age would have to know *something* of why they're being
treated this way in order for them to not "pull a Neville" [be so frightened
he can't learn] or "pull a Harry" [be so angry he won't/can't learn].

{
Silverthorne}
Yes, Snape has been that way since the beginning (incidently, I'm one of the
ones that thinks he's an equal opportunity bastard...but, as has been said
before, since Harry doesn't follow him around all the time, we're only going
to know about the kids that get picked on where Harry happens to be). The
kids, thanks to their upbringing *won't* be prepared...because their parents
aren't prepared. No one thinks a war is imminent--they think they're all
safe. No wonder the kids have no inkling of what they're walking
into...their parents didn't...and probably would not have believed it if
they had been told it was. Voldy's dead...why think about training your kids
for war (in which case, Snape being painted as a total monster would be
accurate). About the only folks that really *do* believe it are Dumble and
what remains of the former OotP members. Not exactly good odds for this
generation of kids to get a clue.

My former Navy lifemate pointed out and re-inforced something to me last
night.(She's had to listen to me bemoan not being able to get my point
across clearly enough in these discussions...I think she might shoot me soon
because of it...lol!). I think we can all agree Snape isn't *really*
civillian-class teacher material. His manner, well suited in a military
school or armed forces basic training, is a disaster here. I won't even
argue that, because it *is* true. The kids are civilian, their parents are,
and the mindset just is not there. I think we can also agree that his
technique, whether its due to his nature, DD's requests, his own
experinences as a child and a DE growing up in the Voldemort Years, or a
combination of these factors, is not likely to change.

First of all, having been a DE, Snape knows what the DE can do...every last
little horrible detail, no doubt whether he did it himself or not. Second,
he knows Voldemort is coming back, either because of inside information, or
because he trusts DD's judgement in the matter. Third...by the time he gets
Harry...it has already started. The Hogwarts teachers are already making
preparations to keep Voldemort, or at least his faith DE, from getting
something valuble (The Philospher/Sorcerer's stone). So, in essence, there
is no more time.

Snape is a survivor of a war--one we could probably draw parallels to in
Vietnam and the like. He knows what's about to happen...worse yet, he not
only knows what it means in a general way for his chosen side, but he has an
excellent idea what his former allies are capable of. He is already in 'war'
mode...and since he knows there's no more time, that Harry MUST survive and
do certain things, he's not going to have a whole hell of a lot of patience
for the kid...and he'll have even less for a reluctant, combative one.
Ther's no time to indulge Harry in that, even at age eleven--Voldemort has
already found him...has already dragged Harry onto the battlefield, in
fact...and anyone associated with him as well.

And of course, since no one else but a select few *see* the war is not only
coming, but is already here, Snape is twice hogtied...somehow he has to
teach thise kids, almost instantly, things that even their parents don't
think need to be taught (and will certinaly hang HIM for if they find out
about it!).

Even a steady person, under those conditions, would take quite a few chunks
out of the hero...Right or wrong. It's called misdirected stress....:(


{Siriusly Snapey Susan}
2) I would think if Snape were acting as Asshold Drill Sergeant at Hogwarts,
because the WW is at war, then he'd treat all students the same way.  Or
does he go soft on the Slytherins because he doesn't *want* them to war
war-ready???


{Silverthorne}
I really think he *does* treat all the non-DE students the same--we just
don't see it...and I also think you're dead on on the Slyths getting it
easy...it's the reverse of what he's doing to Harry and co. He chews on
Harry and Co. to get them stronger (even if its not working as it should),
meanwhile, he coddles the DE Slyths...who, having been coddled all this
time, will be less prepared when push finally comes to shove (or so he
hopes).

Glad you liked the post!

Anne






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 19:50:33 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 19:50:33 -0000
Subject: Life-saving bonds
In-Reply-To: <c46gth+cc6r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c49um9+fr9e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94434

> Marianne wrote:
> 
> The subject of life bonds or life debts has come up, but it's 
> anyone's guess if you'll be able to find it using the primitive 
> search capabilities here.  
> 
> The whole concept strikes me as somewhat vague. <snip> The
implication has been made that Peter is now in Harry's debt and that
this is not going to be happy news to Voldemort. The implication has
also been made that Snape had a debt to James.
> 
> What has not been explained in the books is to what extent these 
> debts exist. For how long? What action repays a debt? I'd assume
that if a debt comes into being because you've saved my life, can I
only repay it by saving your life?  Can I repay it by saving the life
of someone you love?  Can I repay it by doing other good works for
those who need help?  

Carol:
I have the same questions and no answers. But it seems to me that part
of Snape's resentment of James is that he died without giving Snape a
chance to repay that debt. And IMO part (but by no means all) of his
motive in trying to save Harry in various circumstances is the hope
that he can finally pay back that debt. Maybe (and this will be a
strange concept to the Snape-haters) his personal *honor* is at stake?
Or will there be consequences of some sort if he dies with the debt
unpaid? We do have evidence of some sort of afterlife in the WW. Would
Snape, if he were killed with the debt unpaid, come back as a ghost to
avoid facing those consequences? I can't picture that, darkly funny as
it would be to have Snape as a Hogwarts ghost, because the one fault
Snape definitely does not have is cowardice.
> 
> And, what if I really can't stand you and I'm generally pissed off 
> that now I'm in your debt?  What happens if I get the opportunity to 
> pay back that debt by saving your life, and I simply decide to let 
> you die? Do I then get some other punishment?  From who?  God and 
> religion don't seem to play a particularly overt part in the Wizard 
> World, so there doesn't seem to be a "God will punish you" rationale.

Carol:
I don't think we're going to see either Peter or Snape refuse to pay
the debt. Peter is too cowardly not to and Snape had been trying to
pay it since the first book. So despite the near-absence of religion
in the WW (they celebrate a secularized Christmas and Easter, they
hold funerals and bury their dead (Crouch's wife's empty grave), they
believe in a soul that can be "sucked" by Dementors), I think the "God
will punish you" idea shouldn't be entirely ruled out. The voice we
hear in Trelawny's prophecies comes from somewhere outside her. Is it
God's voice? The three worst curses are not just illegal, they're
Unforgiveable. *Who* can't forgive them? The WW? God? It seems as if
there is some sort of religious belief here. Maybe Regulus Black
wasn't simply resisting the order to commit murder. Maybe he didn't
want to contaminate his soul by performing an Unforgiveable Curse. And
maybe Snape and Peter will be compelled to fulfill their life debts
for similar reasons--a concern for consequences in the afterlife if
they don't. yes, I know it sounds strange, but the WW is medieval in
many respects, and many tyrants and murderers in the RW have been
believers in God (or Allah), so it's not as incomprehensible as it
seems. If there are no consequences in the afterlife, why would Nearly
Headless Nick and the other Hogwarts ghosts be afraid to face "the
last great adventure"?

Carol, who is asking questions here, not providing what she thinks are
the answers





From jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net  Mon Mar 29 23:07:20 2004
From: jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net (Robert Jones)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 23:07:20 -0000
Subject: Werewolf Cubs?
Message-ID: <c4aa78+mpdv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94435

In the COS p. 311 US ed., Tom Riddle ridicules Hagrid for trying to 
raise werewolf cubs.  What are werewolf cubs?  Don't people become 
werewolves by being bitten like Lupin?  Does this mean that if Lupin 
had children they would be werewolves?





From Ladycat16 at aol.com  Mon Mar 29 19:34:59 2004
From: Ladycat16 at aol.com (Ladycat16 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 14:34:59 -0500
Subject: SHIP: Re: Why does Ron have a crush on Hermione?
Message-ID: <11B83881.605DD20E.02576AF9@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94436

Hey everyone. I am just trying to mesh all the posts that I want to respond to all in one. If you become confused I am sorry.

Robert Jones says: 

Why does Ron have a crush on Hermione?  

I (Tiffany) say: I think it has alot to do with how he views her. As someone told me at one time your going to marry someone on like your opposite parent. I am not saying they are going to marry it's just when you look for a significant other you tend to find some like your mom or dad. I think that's what he sees in her. She's always there to help him with homework, and she constantly naggs him, but instead of just dealing with that he usally argues back at her and vise versa. I also think it had a lot to do with her being such a good friend to him. 


Arya says:

This 'crush', to me, began in GoF and the Yule Ball thing.  In fact, I pinpoint the turning point to Ron's attitude towards Hermione at the "You're a girl" statement.

Therefore, prior to Ron's revelation of "Hermione-you're a girl!", Hermione had just be categorized as 'a friend'.  

I (Tiffany) say: I know thats your oppinion but I have to put in my two sence worth. I think the whole "crush" {the do you like me circle yes or no type of crush.} started back in year 2 CoS. But I agree with you on Ron having Hermione catagorized her as just a friend untill the Ball. I think when he stated that "your a girl" made him realize the crush for her on more of a "girlfriend" level.

The Sergeant Majorette says:

Remember the non-hug at the end of the CoS movie? That was deliberate foreshadowing of the unresolved sexual tension between Ron/Hermione that JKR knew we'd be seeing in the future.

I (Tiffany) say:

I completely agree with you on the above statement. 


Tiffany 






From kiatrier at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 23:13:01 2004
From: kiatrier at yahoo.com (Kia)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 23:13:01 -0000
Subject: Ron=DD?
Message-ID: <c4aaht+6rdm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94437

vmonte responds:
>I'm making up this whole scenario to illustrate my point (I know 
>that I may be completely wrong about how time travel works but 
>why time travel in the first place if you don't want to change 
>events?)

To be in the same place twice. I am not sure whether it is even 
canonically possible to change events in HP by time-travelling.

See if  an event only happens once, it cannot be altered.

See, if this scenario actually happened:

>DD tries to make sure this doesn't happen again, so in this 
>timeline he assigns Sirius as their keeper (the first time around 
>the Potters may not have had any keeper/protector). But for 
>whatever reason, Sirius decides to change the keeper to Peter. 
>(DD has no idea about what Sirius has done.) Peter is bad, 
>and the Potters are killed again.

it would require the timeline to change everytime it happens. 
Ron!DD would require a reason not to assign anyone as the 
Potters' secret keeper the first time around. He would then need 
a reason to make Sirius the Secret Keeper and in the 
subsequent run of the events, he would probably try to get rid of 
Pettigrew before Sirius can give him the keeper job. And if that 
doesn't work, he will do something else.

Add a few additional scenarios and maybe somewhere down 
the line DD succeeds, but subsequently Ron never becomes 
Dumbledore and history is altered again, until the whole 
Universe explodes in the some kind of time-space paradox, 
when DD alternatively creates and destroys his own existence.

See that's the problem when it comes all down to it. Time-travel 
can mess up the logic of any novel. Introducing the idea that 
there once was a different timeline, begs the question if there 
will be a new time-line that renders the current time-line 
inconsequential. And the whole story becomes fairly moot. It 
would be the last thing I would advice any author to have in their 
books unless they plan to write about time-travel paradoxes. 
(And Rowling isn't writing that.)


I would buy other explanations on why DD didn't help Sirius, 
allowed the Potter murder etc... but that Ron will do that in an 
alternative past is not a good idea.

Of course the real question is what could DD!Ron change as 
opposed to just!DD or just!Ron? Why is it necessary for 
Dumbledore to be Ron *in the future*? 



Kia




From norek_archives2 at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 29 23:22:57 2004
From: norek_archives2 at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 23:22:57 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Neville getting better at Potions?
Message-ID: <BAY2-F127YDP0kgUASm00028084@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94438

Pippin says:

>I am wondering if Neville simply does better with the instructions
>all written on the board OWL style, instead of having to keep track
>of Snape's  oral instructions.

*snip*

>The other class where he seems to have the most trouble is
>Transfiguration, and McGonagall's teaching method seems to
>be as verbal as Snape's, minus the sarcasm.
>
>In Herbology and CoMC where everything is done by
>demonstration, and in History of Magic and Divination where
>there is written instruction as well as verbal, Neville seems to do
>all right.

This would seem to support the widespread theory that Neville's memory has 
been damaged somehow (intentionally or otherwise).  He'd have trouble 
remembering verbal instructions once they were over, but if all he had to do 
was look at written instructions when he needed to, he'd have far less 
trouble.

He certainly had a lot of trouble remembering passwords ... he should be 
glad he's a wizard and doesn't have to use computers. :)


Janet Anderson

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From rredordead at aol.com  Mon Mar 29 23:24:38 2004
From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 23:24:38 -0000
Subject: Snape, the "Deeply Horrible Person"
In-Reply-To: <c488gp+nkgg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4ab7m+23fa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94439

> Brian writes:
<snipped a great post> 
> Someone once advised me to read _Ivanhoe_, by Sir Walter Scott, 
> because the villain, Sir Brian de Bois Guilbert is a "complex 
> villain."  After reading the admittedly plodding book, I realized 
> that de Guilbert was a complex villain because his epistemology and 
> worldview were quite individuated for the times in which he was 
set.  If Snape meets these criteria, we can add him to the list of 
complex villains.  Or, perhaps, he will join the ranks of redeemed 
villains, like Darth Vader.


Mandy here:
Interesting comments Brian, and I would like to add a comparison of 
Snape to another great villain. Possibly the greatest of all time 
imo.  

Milady DeWinter from the Three Musketeers. Which if you haven't' read

read it immediately!  It is truly fantastic adventure and full of 
characters who you think are good but have done, and are capably of, 
some terribly bad things, and characters who are very bad but who 
are, or were, decent people inside.  Much the way our Snape is 
turning out to be.

Anyway for those who don't know; Milady DeWinter is a truly 
despicable villainess who terrorizes and hunts down d'Artagnan and 
the 3 Musketeers for the Cardinal.  She is truly hated by you as the 
reader, until about half way through, then you begin to get glimpses 
of her story, and because of her treatment as a young woman, she grew 
into the woman she became.

To summarize briefly; because of actions by her brother, as a yoooung 
girl she is branded a thief, without trial. (Literally branded, on 
her flesh, with the French letter for thief.)  And shortly there 
after falls in love with a gorgeous young man who would willingly 
give his life for her. Her prince charming, or so she thinks.  When 
he finds discovers the brand whilst makeing love to her, he dosen't 
ask for any explanation but proceed to torture her.  He beats her, 
strip her naked and lynches her from a tree!  Leaving her for dead.  
This is young man grows up to be one of our Three Musketeers.  Later, 
DeWinter encounters another one of our four 'heroes' which would have 
resulted in her rape had she not had a knife on her and knew how to 
use it.   So much for chivalry, eh?  

With the revelation of this information it is no surprise that she is 
who she is.  Cold, calculating and heartless, and wants them all 
dead.  But suddenly she becomes this incredible, 3 dimensional 
character that you truly feel enormous sympathy for, whilst rooting 
for out heroes to win at the same time.  When her fate is finally 
reveled to us, itself terrible, I cried for her.

I think Snape is very much like Milady DeWinter.  Because of 
circumstances in his youth he is who he is today.  This is no excuse 
for bad behavior but it is a cause and effect.   He was treated 
horribly by his peers in school, and from school lived in a war.  
Wars bring out the best and worst in all of us and I think it brought 
out the worst in Snape who is now paying for those choices.  I really 
enjoy him even though I don't like him at all, and I find I want the 
best for him even though I know he is going to die.

Cheers Mandy.
  





From enigma_only at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 29 22:44:33 2004
From: enigma_only at hotmail.com (fiondavhar)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 22:44:33 -0000
Subject: Snape outing Harry as Parselmouth (was Re: If DD knows, then why..?)
In-Reply-To: <c4a7tm+kl7n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4a8sh+qf8c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94440


> Mandy here:

  But I still do 
> not think it is usual for the Serpensortia spell to come from the 
> mouth of a 12-year-old wizard.  What Snape did was put the idea in 
> Draco mind to use it, he didn't tell Draco how to do it.  
> 
> Whether Snape did this deliberately because he or DD had suspicions 
> about Harry being a Parceltongue?  Who knows?  I wouldn't be at all 
> surprised if either DD, or Snape, or both did it to deliberately 
out 
> Harry's unusual power. 
> 

Bonny replying:


I agree that it is quite possible that Dumbledore and/or Snape might 
have suspected Harry of having this power. However, choosing that 
particular time and place to out it, would, under the circumstances, 
be unwise and unkind to Harry. It is not a very Dumbledore-esque 
thing to do, causing Harry to be even more ostracized. 

I think that Snape suggesting Draco conjure the snake was more to 
show Slytherins superiority (he knew Lockhart wouldn't be able to get 
rid of it and that he, Snape, would have to come to the rescue) and 
that, if he had any suspicions about Harry and parseltounge, he had 
momentarily forgotten them. I am sure that the incident will have 
stirred his memory! However, I can't see them purposfully choosing 
that time, at least not if Dumbledore was involved. 

Bonny






From constancevigilance at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 23:33:50 2004
From: constancevigilance at yahoo.com (Susan Miller)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 23:33:50 -0000
Subject: DADA post question
In-Reply-To: <c48biu+9id7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4abov+nanh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94441

Since I'm agreeing with everything that Ravenclaw Bookworm wrote 
about the quality of most of the DADA teachers, I'm snipping the 
whole piece. I suggest readers up-thread and read her post.

Since we are discussing Quirrell, you know I have to make an 
appearance. :)

Regarding Quirrell's teaching:

>From book 1, we know that Quirrell was apparently a fine teacher 
before he went on Sabbatical:

"Poor bloke. Brilliant mind. He was fine while he was studyin' outta 
books, but then took a year off ter get some first-hand 
experience.... <snip> [He] never was the same since." Hagrid, SS/PS, 
US edition, page 70-71

Then, we see him teaching (page 134):

"The class everyone had been looking forward to was Defense Against 
the Dark Arts, but Quirrell's lessons turned out to be a bit of a 
joke. His classroom smelled strongly of garlic, which everyone said 
was to ward off a vampire he'd met in Romania and was afraid would be 
coming back to get him one of these days. His turban, he told them, 
had been given to him by an African prince as a thank-you for getting 
rid of a troublesome zombie, but they weren't sure they believed this 
story. For one thing, when Seamus Finnigan asked eagerly to hear how 
Quirrell had foungt off the zombie, Quirrell went pink and started 
talking about the weather; for another, they had noticed that a funny 
smell hung around the turban, and the Weasley twins insisted that it 
was stuffed full of garlic as well, so that Quirrell was protected 
wherever he went."

You can read this "class is a joke" in two ways - 1: there was no 
constructive teaching going on, or 2: the teacher and the classroom 
were peculiar and easy to make fun of.

We know that Quirrell was establishing a persona - a stuttering 
buffoon. However, I tend to believe that even in his possessed state, 
he took his teaching responsibilities seriously, as did Fake!Moody.

I think that taking Quirrell and Moody as examples of Dumbledore's 
hiring "total incompetents" (Quoting Carol) is a bit stiff. 

No one can deny that students learned good information in Moody's 
class. We also know that Not-yet-possessed!Quirrell was known as 
having been "fine". He was also a talented wizard, given the wandless 
magic he performed in the dungeon. In fact, who knows, maybe the 
turban WAS given to him by a prince for services rendered. His 
stammering followup to Seamus could have been a continuation of his 
establishment of the buffoon persona.

In short, I'm in agreement with Ravenclaw Bookworm.

CV - Quirrell Lives!






From rredordead at aol.com  Mon Mar 29 23:46:29 2004
From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 23:46:29 -0000
Subject: Werewolf Cubs?
In-Reply-To: <c4aa78+mpdv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4acgl+ohed@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94442

"Robert Jones" wrote:
> In the COS p. 311 US ed., Tom Riddle ridicules Hagrid for trying to 
> raise werewolf cubs.  What are werewolf cubs?  Don't people become 
> werewolves by being bitten like Lupin?  Does this mean that if 
Lupin had children they would be werewolves?


Mandy Here:
Humm interesting.  

I would think that if Lupin had sex with a woman, whilst he was a 
man, the result would be human babies.  But would they be werewolf 
humans who turn at the full moon?  

If he mates with a werewolf, while he is a werewolf the result would 
be cubs.  But would they be werewolf cubs, capable of turning into a 
human?  Or would they be wolf cubs?

Perhaps the result is some terrible blend of both, like The Brundle 
Fly, in The Fly.  I expect poor Remus has to live a celibate life to 
avoid the result and what ever the result it can't be pretty.

Mandy





From rayheuer3 at aol.com  Mon Mar 29 23:55:27 2004
From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 18:55:27 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] CHAPTER DISCUSSION:  Chapter 15 (The Hogwarts High Inquis...
Message-ID: <92.6f2d823.2d9a116f@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94443

elfundeb2 wrote:

e> 1.  According to the Daily Prophet, the High Inquisitor position was 
e> the result of "surprise legislation" passed by the Ministry on a 
e> Sunday night.  Who passed that legislation?  A legislative body?  If 
e> so, who is it composed of?  How is it chosen?  Why wasn't it 
e> mentioned by name?

DaveH47 at mindspring.com replied:

D> JKR has been *very* vague about the structure of Wizard government,
D> and I have to wonder if she in fact knows little about how
D> representative democracy works (Ministries / Government Departments
D> don't "pass legislation" -- Parliament / Congress does), or if she
D> simply hasn't given it enough importance in her grand scheme to
D> think it through.

Ray (me) takes issue:

Actually, at least here in the US, there are many "laws" not made
by Congress.  They are called "Federal Regulations" and are issued
by "the Alphabet Boys", such as IRS, FDA, FCC, and so on (for the 
non-Americans among us, those are the Internal Revenue Service, 
the Food and Drug Administration, and the Federal Communications
Commission).  I suspect that the Muggle Parliament treats the WW
as such a regulatory body, with its own "laws", its own courts, and
its own enforcement officers.

  --  Ray


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 00:06:21 2004
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 00:06:21 -0000
Subject: Ollivander a Dragon Slayer?
In-Reply-To: <c4a71d+t1et@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4adlt+vhvr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94444

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chelle" <teshara at y...> wrote:
> Ollivander had always been a person that has gotten my attention. He
> makes all the wands for everyone, we know that. He collects the
> finest things for his materials: Phoenix feathers, unicorn hair,
> dragon heartstring....
> 
> Dragon heartstring?
> 
> ... Is Ollivander a dragonslayer?
> 
> My ex had this theory that Ollivander and the original Ollivander on
> his sign are one and the same.
> 
> Any thoughts?
> 
> ~ Chelle

bboy_mn:

Let's start off by saying that I am an Ollivander fan. In the future,
beyond the end of the book, I see Harry and Ollivander in a mutually
respectful lifelong friendship. So, anyone who proposes any
ESE!Ollivander theories will be frowned upon. That's a general
statement, not implying that you are specifically calling Ollivander
evil. 

Ollivander may, at some point in his life, have slain his own dragons
but overal, we see that many dragon based products are readily
available; dragon skins for boots, jackets, gloves, the implied 12
uses of dragons blood, dragon heart, dragon liver, dragon meat,
etc.... In a sense, dragons in the wizard world aren't far from cows
in the muggle world. But we must remember, dragons are close to the
size of a 5 or 6 story building. One dragon equals LOTS AND LOTS of
dragon based products. 

To extent this further, I suspect much like the real world, the
dragon's habitat has been so severly reduced that if left unchecked
the dragon population would overwhelm the available habitat.
Consequently, wizards are engaged in a systematic method of dragon
population control. Pretty much all animals who remain in the wild in
the modern world have their population controlled by man through the
regulation of hunting. 

In the real world, when deer (bear, moose, wolves, etc...) start
running through largely populated areas, the DNR (Dept of Natural
Resource) alters the deer (or whatever) hunting regulations to allow
more deer to be killed during the next hunting season. 

So to, dragon population is controlled by eliminating excess
populations, and killing rogue and nusance dragons. That seems to
supply the wizard world with all the dragon based product it needs. 

Hummm... I wonder what barbecued dragon steak taste like? Somehow
'taste like chicken' doesn't quite seem to fit. 

It is worth noting though that Dragons are the only creature that are
killed in order to make wands. Although, I don't think they are every
killed specifically for the purpose of making wands. That would be too
wasteful. 

As to your friend's theory that THIS Ollivander is the Original
Ollivander, let's remember the Ollivanders was founded in 382 BC. Let
me stongly emphasize the 'B.C. - Before Christ'. That would make Mr.
Ollivander about 2,400 (Twenty four HUNDRED) years old. I don't think
so. That's about 12 times the lifespan of the longest lived wizards.

Just a few thoughts.

bboy_mn









From rayheuer3 at aol.com  Tue Mar 30 00:08:14 2004
From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 19:08:14 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] CHAPTER DISCUSSION:  Chapter 15 (The Hogwarts High Inquis...
Message-ID: <c0.8ba85e3.2d9a146e@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94445

elfundeb at comcast.net writes:

e> 2. The Daily Prophet quotes Percy Wesley extensively.  How 
e> enthusiastic do you think his support really is?  Does he honestly 
e> believe what he says, is he doing it to get ahead of the Ministry, 
e> or does he really think he owes unquestioning obedience to his 
e> superiors?  How does the Percy we see here square with the Percy we 
e> saw in PS/SS who admired Dumbledore's brilliance?

This ties three things together, first - reporters (even wizard reporters)
have X column inches to fill and will fill them with whatever they can
uncover.  If you can find a source in the "halls of power", it doesn't
matter how junior they are - it can be an unpaid intern, a janitor, or a
stenographer trying trying to feel important.
Second, we have my "Blundering Dunderhead - The Next Generation".
Percy, like Fudge, is not evil, just wrong-headed and completely closed 
to opinions that differ with his own.  Some of this is, of course, born out
of a desire to get ahead, but mostly, he does it because he believes
that he and Fudge (et al) are right, and his family and Dumbledore (et al)
are wrong.  He will tell anyone, including the odd reporter how brilliant
Fudge is, because it reassures him that he is brilliant to see the "truth"
Finally, Percy's admiration of Dumbledore shows that he was always
prone to be a sycophant.  DD's choice of Percy as Prefect (remember
how priggish he was about *that*?) showed that they recognize his
(Percy's) brilliance, and therefore, they must also be brilliant.

  --  Ray


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue Mar 30 00:15:11 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 00:15:11 -0000
Subject: Snape outing Harry as Parselmouth (was Re: If DD knows, then why..?)
In-Reply-To: <c4a7tm+kl7n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4ae6f+hlhn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94446

 
> Mandy here:
> But the question raised was; Was it unusual for Draco, a 12-year-
old 
> wizard, to conger the Serpensortia spell? I was arguing that it was 
> not, as there would have been a stir from the kids if it was.  
> 
>

Potioncat:
I think one surprise was followed by second surprise, and the second 
was a whopper!  Yes, I think it is unusual for a 12 year old to be 
able to perform serpensortia.  My questions are: Who taught him, 
Snape or Lucius? (I think it would have been Lucius.)  Was Snape also 
trying to show Potter how skilled Draco is in a controlled situation 
where Snape could save Potter?(that is: be careful)
Potioncat 




From meriaugust at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 00:15:41 2004
From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 00:15:41 -0000
Subject: Werewolf Cubs?
In-Reply-To: <c4acgl+ohed@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4ae7d+112s7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94447


> "Robert Jones" wrote:
> > In the COS p. 311 US ed., Tom Riddle ridicules Hagrid for trying 
to 
> > raise werewolf cubs.  What are werewolf cubs?  Don't people 
become 
> > werewolves by being bitten like Lupin?  Does this mean that if 
> Lupin had children they would be werewolves?
> 

Meri replies: 
I think JKR said in an interview (for the life of me I can't think 
which one, must head to the Floo Network to check it out) that Tom 
Riddle was merely slandering and lying about Hagrid's activities to 
Harry. So there were, in actuality, no werewolf cubs. 
Meri 




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Mar 30 00:34:21 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 00:34:21 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION:  Chapter 15 (The Hogwarts High Inquisitor)
In-Reply-To: <c48bh5+u8ur@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4afad+r1ev@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94448

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "elfundeb2" 
<elfundeb at c...> wrote:

> 2. The Daily Prophet quotes Percy Wesley extensively.  How 
 enthusiastic do you think his support really is?  Does he 
honestly  believe what he says, is he doing it to get ahead of the 
Ministry,  or does he really think he owes unquestioning 
obedience to his  superiors?  How does the Percy we see here 
square with the Percy we  saw in PS/SS who admired 
Dumbledore's brilliance?<

If you read what Percy himself says in the article, there's nothing 
hostile to Dumbledore. In fact, he tells the world who is to 
blame for Fudge's decision "He is responding to concerns 
voiced by anxious parents, who feel the school may be moving in 
a direction they do not approve." No doubt Percy gave Lucius 
Malfoy's name as the anxious parent he had in mind, and the 
Prophet dutifully sought him out for a quote. Percy made sure 
that everyone in the WW found out that Fudge has fallen further 
under Malfoy's influence. They'll know what to think about that: I 
don't think the WW as a whole has changed their opinion of the 
Malfoys one bit since CoS.

I think this is more of Agent!Percy at work, subtly getting the word 
out.

Pippin




From gsanderson at cfl.rr.com  Tue Mar 30 00:36:24 2004
From: gsanderson at cfl.rr.com (gsanderson at cfl.rr.com)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 00:36:24 -0000
Subject: Ron=DD?
In-Reply-To: <c4a8fn+qcq4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4afe8+o4pp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94449

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" <vmonte at y...> wrote:
> vmonte responds:
> I'm making up this whole scenario to illustrate my point (I know 
that 
> I may be completely wrong about how time travel works but why time 
> travel in the first place if you don't want to change events?)
> 
> Lets say that Ron=DD.  Something in the future is going to happen 
to 
> Ron to blast him into the past.  Ron then assumes a new identity: 
> Dumbledore. Because DD is really Ron he knows that in the future 
his 
> friend Harry will be born and Voldemort will try to kill him and 
his 
> family.  DD tries to make sure this doesn't happen again, so in 
this 
> timeline he assigns Sirius as their keeper (the first time around 
the 
> Potters may not have had any keeper/protector). But for whatever 
> reason, Sirius decides to change the keeper to Peter. (DD has no 
idea 
> about what Sirius has done.) Peter is bad, and the Potters are 
killed 
> again. 
> 
> DD also knows (because he was once Ron) that Harry will be very 
upset 
> when Sirius gets killed.  So DD saves Sirius's life by having 
> Hermione and Harry time travel to save him (and Buckbeak). 
> DD is happy -- he has saved Sirius (the first time around Sirius 
> died).  But Sirius is Sirius and he is not a careful person. He 
> starts putting himself in danger. DD starts to worry again. So when 
> he has the chance he forces Sirius stay at Order headquarters.  But 
> Sirius is Sirius and he doesn't like being trapped, and he also 
feels 
> badly that he isn't helping the Order (Snape even pushes Sirius 
more 
> by basically calling him a coward--and people don't think that 
Snape 
> manipulates people?!). 
> So, Sirius leaves Headquarters -- and is killed again!!!
> 
> DD is learning that he cannot always change fate.  Sirius was going 
> to die no matter what -- because Sirius was Sirius.
> 
> vmonte

DD on time travel:
"Hasn't your experience with the Time-Turner taught you anything, 
Harry?  The consequences of our actions are always so complicated, so 
diverse, that predicting the future is a very difficult business 
indeed..."  PoA pg. 426 US

Sorry, but I agree with "Kia" in that this is not consistent with 
JKR's original approach to time travel - which appears to be a 
straight through one timeline only deal.  I admit that having DD 
really be someone from the story who went back would explain an 
aweful lot (DD's general air of enjoying himself, knowing everything 
before it happens, The Gleam), I don't think this does it.  It 
reminds me of that recent Ashton Kutcher movie (The Butterfly Affect, 
or somthing like that) where changing time had drastically bad 
effects - please tell me JKR will not emulate Ashton Kutcher!

That being said, DD already could not be the twins, Percy, Charlie, 
or Bill since they are still around after the age when they would 
have taken Newts with Prof Marchbanks.  The only possible Weasley 
candidate, age-wise, is Ron.  

How would a student go back so far in time and be able to get into 
Hogwarts without the green Quill to write his name down?

Kristen - who hopes that the series ends with Harry being the key, 
not DD






From Berkana_01 at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 29 21:00:22 2004
From: Berkana_01 at hotmail.com (Joanna Barra)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 21:00:22 +0000
Subject: Re-Hermione pre-Hogwarts (was re: flinching at LV's name)
Message-ID: <BAY7-F25iz5V3KtuvhS00012245@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94450

Lionel:
>> I'm curious how Hermione got her books in the first place:  How do
Muggle-born wizards *find* Diagon Alley the first time?  How do they
know that's where to go to het their school supplies?  Do they get a
guide, or a special orientation letter or something?

And would Hermione have gotten a letter of warning from the Ministry
for practicing those first few spells at home? <<


..............
Yes, very true...I would think that Hermione always knew she was a 
witch and probably saw the entrance to Diagon Alley well before she 
received her Hogwarts letter at 11 yrs. If that be true, then she 
would have just walked in and out of Diagon Alley freely and maybe 
bought the books.....But that is just my opinion....Hermione's family 
could have been attacked by LV when he and his deatheaters were on the 
rise, she could have encountered him well before reading about him.


ml

joanna
x







From Snarryfan at aol.com  Mon Mar 29 21:45:19 2004
From: Snarryfan at aol.com (evita2fr)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 21:45:19 -0000
Subject: Evaluating Snape (was: Re: Lupin's resentment )
In-Reply-To: <c49rqn+9bkp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4a5df+sgeb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94451

Carol:
> <snip> But I do see a reluctant and grudging respect for 
> Harry on Snape's part at the end of OoP. <snip> Maybe Harry 
> will develop a similar grudging appreciation for Snape's 
> enormous workload and the dangers he has to face. <snip> He 
> must realize that he and Snape are on the same side and that 
> the real enemy is Voldemort. I think the first steps toward 
> that mutual understanding (which is *not* the same as mutual
> affection) will happen in Book 6.



I think I have something which show that (p750, UK version):

"Whatever Dumbledore said, he would never forgive Snape...never..."

I know, it could be seen like THE proof that Harry and Snape will 
hate each other for a long moment, maybe forever.
But if we apply the saying "never say never", it could be JKR meaning 
something. Twice in her interviews, she said "I try to never say 
never".
Since she thinks that, maybe it's a way to tell "Hey! You hate him 
now, but wait! You just the said the words which will change all!"


Christelle














From teshara at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 22:31:09 2004
From: teshara at yahoo.com (Chelle)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 22:31:09 -0000
Subject: Is Neville getting better at Potions?
In-Reply-To: <c4a724+1103t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4a83d+3qoj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94452

Pippin wrote: 
> I am wondering if Neville simply does better with the instructions 
> all written on the board OWL style, instead of having to keep track 
> of Snape's  oral instructions.
> 
> An earlier poster said she didn't think that Neville could have a 
> magical learning disability because he does better in his other 
> classes. But he's a bright kid, and he may be able to 
> compensate better when he's not distracted by his fear of the 
> teacher and he's not being expected to follow verbal instructions. 
> The other class where he seems to have the most trouble is 
> Transfiguration, and McGonagall's teaching method seems to 
> be as verbal as Snape's, minus the sarcasm. 

Being intelligent has nothing to do with learning disabilities. I
didn't  find out I had a learning disability until my 4th year of
part-time college. Now they tell me I'm partially dyslexic with almost
no short-term memory. Post-its have saved my life :)

Neville reminds me of me as a kid. I feel sorry for him. I really do
think he might have a natural thing with his memory going on, not a
charm. 

Wizards are overbred. You see it in animals, you see it in people.
When the family tree doesn't branch out much the people get jolly and
bubble-headed.

There's our Neville.

~ Chelle





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue Mar 30 00:49:11 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 00:49:11 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Harry=92s_anger:_neither_teen_angst_nor_channeling_Voldemort?=
In-Reply-To: <c49mnj+76fj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4ag67+n590@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94453

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "steffy07" <steffy07 at a...> 
wrote:
> Steffy wrote:
 
> Harry's "teen angst" is a weird issue.  I don't think it is LV 
> acting through him, or it is out of character.  I think it is the 
> brilliance of JKR.  Harry is a teenage boy, who is pummeled with 
> emotions at every turn.  I think his emotions are normal...that 
> having being said...
> 
> >major cutting so I could respond to only a small part of the post<<

Potioncat:
Well, I don't know if it was normal or not, but my teenaged son was 
acting a lot like Harry when OoP came out.  So when Snape threw the 
jar of cockroaches at  him I cheered!

Maybe that's why I like Snape so much, he does things I wish I could 
do, but never would.

Potioncat







From diagonalley038 at yahoo.ca  Mon Mar 29 23:16:40 2004
From: diagonalley038 at yahoo.ca (Hermione)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 18:16:40 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Werewolf Cubs?
In-Reply-To: <c4aa78+mpdv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040329231640.92011.qmail@web60508.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94454

Robert Jones <jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>> In the COS p. 311 US ed., Tom Riddle ridicules Hagrid for trying 
to raise werewolf cubs.  What are werewolf cubs?  Don't people become 
werewolves by being bitten like Lupin?  Does this mean that if Lupin 
had children they would be werewolves? <<

I personally think that is someone like Lupin had children, his 
children would be werewolf cubs at first, but gradually grow into 
a werewolf like Lupin. I think... if you understand what I'm trying 
to say.


"Hermione" 








From cowardly_heroic at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 23:21:13 2004
From: cowardly_heroic at yahoo.com (cowardly_heroic)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 23:21:13 -0000
Subject: Snape as A-hole Drill Sargeant [was: Re: Harry, Snape,Occlumency]
In-Reply-To: <c4a4rg+ku9g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4ab19+9mhu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94455

Siriusly Snapey Susan:
 > Are 11- or 12-year-olds who see themselves as boarding school 
 > students able to *learn* under the Asshole Drill Sergeant 
 > methods the way an 18-year-old army recruit is?  [Don't jump 
 > down my throat anyone, please, it's just a question!]  *I* think 
 > that kids that age would have to know *something* of why they're 
 > being treated this way in order for them to not "pull a Neville" 
 > [be so frightened he can't learn] or "pull a Harry" [be so angry 
 > he won't/can't learn].  


Patty writes:
    From my own experiences, I have had a Snape-like teacher every 
year of my schooling since the 5th grade.  A few of them were even 
worse than Snape and incompetent to boot.  But the ones that were 
good at what they taught made sure we remembered, in and out of 
class, the things taught in the classroom.  Their goals were 
basically to make the students retain the information longer than 5 
minutes after taking a test and help us see things in a wider 
perspective.  I've also experienced the few that were the nicest and 
most compassionate of teachers, but egads, they could not teach.  It 
was fun in their class and the atmosphere was relaxed, but no one 
remembered a thing concerning the subject a week after the finals.  

Admittedly, I, and most of the students, utterly loathed the Snapish 
teachers, and we feared them to a "Nevillish" extent, but we were 
more compelled to not get into trouble with the teacher than cower.  
We learned and prepared so that we wouldn't give the bastards any 
ammunition against us.  I never really saw any students respond to 
these teachers like Harry or Neville, but I guess I have to remember 
that Harry and Neville are caricatures of the possible extremes.
   
There are a great deal of excellent theories already posted about 
why Snape is the snarky bastard that he is in the classroom and how 
it would benefit the students, so I shall just stop here.

       





From diagonalley038 at yahoo.ca  Mon Mar 29 23:24:48 2004
From: diagonalley038 at yahoo.ca (Hermione)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 18:24:48 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snuffing Out Snape (Re: Snape, the "Deeply Horrible Person")
In-Reply-To: <c4a7du+88dr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040329232448.94367.qmail@web60508.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94456

"mnaper2001" <mnaperrone at a...> wrote:
>> <snip>  
> Will he be redeemed?  If you mean, will he change his personality 
> and become a kinder, gentler Snape?  I think not.  If you mean, 
> will he turn out to have been working for DD all along, I think 
> yes.
> 
> <snip>  I think he can remain a "deeply horrible person" and still 
> help the Order win the war.

Jen Reese <stevejjen at earthlink.net> wrote:
> For Snape to be redeemed in the end, he needs to be dead. 
<snip>
> So, no, I don't want to see a kinder, gentler Snape (yuck--can 
> you imagine?). I do think it's important he play a pivotal role 
> in assisting Harry one more time with LV, then he meets his maker.


You know, Snape isn't exactly... evil. You can't exactly blame him 
for being bitter after all he's seen as a Death Eater. I personally 
think he's redeemed himself by helping with the Light and risking his 
life to act as a spy. However, it seems like Snape hasn't forgiven 
himself.
 
Another thing: why would Snape teach in the first place if he hates 
kids? I personally think it's kind of like a punishment for him, set 
by himself. He feels complied to torture himself for all the things 
he's done.
 
I think there IS a heart underneath all that cold and emotionless 
exterior, but it just takes a while for it to show. Besides, think of 
it this way: J.K. was writng from HARRY'S point of view, not Severus'. 
So she won't include any of Severus' feelings, and therefore, we can't 
really judge him. So many people judge Snape by what they THINK he is, 
not what he really is.
 
Ooops, gotta run now,
 
Firestar 






From enigma_only at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 29 23:25:56 2004
From: enigma_only at hotmail.com (fiondavhar)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 23:25:56 -0000
Subject: Ollivander a Dragon Slayer?
In-Reply-To: <c4a71d+t1et@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4aba4+r7sh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94457

 Chelle wrote:
> Ollivander had always been a person that has gotten my attention. He
> makes all the wands for everyone, we know that. He collects the
> finest things for his materials: Phoenix feathers, unicorn hair,
> dragon heartstring....
> 
> Dragon heartstring?
> 
> OK, Fawkes is bound to shed feathers from time to time. I'm sure
> others like him do the same. 
> 
> Unicorn hair might be difficult, considering they don't like men.
> (Come to think of it, I don't think I'd like it if a mad little man
> hopped out of the bushes to pinch my bottom, either.)
> 
> But dragon heartstring? Is Ollivander a dragonslayer?
> 
> My ex had this theory that Ollivander and the original Ollivander on
> his sign are one and the same.

Bonny writes:  

Perhaps, if he is a dragon slayer, or supplied by one, his theorized 
longevity might be due to the twelve uses of dragon blood. I do not 
believe that we have ever been told exactly what these uses are, or 
when Dumbledore discovered them, but if Ollivander does happen to 
slay dragons in the course of his wand making (or even if he 
doesn't), the blood might just have something to do with the series' 
plot.

Bonny





From lfreeman at mbc.edu  Mon Mar 29 21:09:11 2004
From: lfreeman at mbc.edu (Freeman, Louise Margaret)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 16:09:11 -0500
Subject: Underage magic enforcement
Message-ID: <WorldClient-F200403291609.AA09118881@mbc.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 94458

>>And would Hermione have gotten a letter of warning from the Ministry 
for practicing those first few spells at home?

Lionel<<

My guess is, underage magic rules are not enforced before the child gets 
their Hogwarts letter, on the assumption that kids at that age are not 
powerful enough to do much on their own and would (at least for wizard-born 
children) get adequate supervision from their parents.  Muggle-borns 
presumably could not intentionally do magic until they know it exists, so 
anything they did would be purely accidental, like Harry regrowing his hair 
and freeing the snake. Otherwise, poor Neville's parents couldn't try to 
force magic out of him by throwing him out windows, Ron couldn't have tried 
to practice turning Scabbers yellow and Hermione couldn't have done her few 
spells. The small kids flying on brooms, etc. at the World Cup got little 
notice, even though ministry officials were everywhere.

After Hogwarts, underage magic seems to be comprable to underage drinking 
enforcement in the US. Yes, it's technically against the law, but not 
strictly monitored in private homes and generally left to parents and 
schools to enforce. The MOM, for instance, didn't go after Harry and Ron for 
flying the car, even though it was a serious offense viewed by Muggles;  it 
was left to their school and parents to discipline them. The MOM does not 
seem to be monitoring every kid everywhere during the summer and citing them 
for each little charm, just as our police don't haul every kid off to 
juvenile hall who takes a sip of beer in their own home. Also, parents can 
probably "authorize" their kids to do some limited types of magic in their 
own home, just as parents can legally give their own underage children 
alcohol. Intervention happens usually only in the most extreme situations 
and typically only when there is a danger to others. A kid who starts hexing 
muggles in the London Underground could get hauled in, while a kid doing a 
charm in their own home is unlikely to.

Harry, of course, is the big exception.  Both Dumbledore's people and the 
MOM seem to be watching him like a hawk, at least from the start of CoS, at 
first probably for his protection, later for other reasons. Hence the 
instant responses and official warnings literally at the drop of a hat (or 
the hovering of a pudding.) By OotP, once the MOM has launched its vendetta 
against Harry, they are going to use every legal means (and some illegal) 
against him.  Hence the over-reaction (threats of immediate expulsion and 
wand destruction) until Dumbledore reminded them of Harry's legal rights.  
And the surprise of the OotP at the full hearing...  it was the wizarding 
world's equivalent full jury trial in adult court against a 15 year old who 
took a sip of beer.

"Louise"




From stevejjen at earthlink.net  Tue Mar 30 01:09:16 2004
From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 01:09:16 -0000
Subject: Werewolf Cubs?
In-Reply-To: <c4ae7d+112s7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4ahbs+t7ft@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94459

> > "Robert Jones" wrote:
> > > In the COS p. 311 US ed., Tom Riddle ridicules Hagrid for 
trying 
> to 
> > > raise werewolf cubs.  What are werewolf cubs?  Don't people 
> become 
> > > werewolves by being bitten like Lupin?  Does this mean that if 
> > Lupin had children they would be werewolves?
  

> Meri replies: 
> I think JKR said in an interview (for the life of me I can't think 
> which one, must head to the Floo Network to check it out) that Tom 
> Riddle was merely slandering and lying about Hagrid's activities 
to 
> Harry. So there were, in actuality, no werewolf cubs. 


Jen: Here's the interview from Barnes & Noble chat in Oct. 2000:

Q: "In Chamber of Secrets, Hagrid is supposed to have raised 
werewolf cubs under his bed. Are these the same kind of werewolves 
as Professor Lupin?" 

JKR: "No. Riddle was telling lies about Hagrid, just slandering him."

The implication is werewolf cubs don't exist. She leaves the *real* 
question unanswered, though.

Can you imagine always being careful of how you say things, even to 
your closest family and friends?!? I simply couldn't do it without 
slipping up. JKR is a master. You'd think she'd get the books 
written and be *done* with all the secrecy, but maybe she enjoys 
some of the suspense. I hope she agrees to an authorized biography 
when the books are finished.




From Ladycat16 at aol.com  Tue Mar 30 00:45:53 2004
From: Ladycat16 at aol.com (Ladycat16 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 19:45:53 EST
Subject: Hermione flinching at LV's name
Message-ID: <1c9.1715d390.2d9a1d41@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94460

Ellen says:

I recently reread SS and am currently rereading OotP (this group has 
inspired me to pull them out again!). I have been wondering, if 
Hermione was muggle born and raised, then why does she flinch at 
Voldemort's name like those raised in the WW? 


I (Tiffany) says: 

I would have to agree with what everyone else is saying about it 
being a learned behavior. Unless it was a mistake on JK's part. This 
is probably just from the movie and I don't have the book to tell me 
so bear with me. In SS/PS when the trio came back from there detention 
in the forbidden forest. Hermione says Voldemort's name clearly without 
fault. Maybe I am wrong, if so please correct me. 


Ellen says:

I wouldn't put it past her to have taught herself. She's a fast 
learner, and I can see her burying her nose in the books the instant 
she brought them home. I can see her experimenting with her wand and 
trying out the magic in "Standard Book of Spells, Grade One". That's 
very believable to me. 


I (Tiffany) Says: 

My only problem with that concept of trying them out herself wouldn't 
there be a problem with MoM. I means students aren't suppose to do 
magic outside of school, are they? Or did I miss something? I know 
accidental magic isn't a big deal but that would be a real deal though.  
Can someone clarify?

Tiffany









From melclaros at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 01:17:21 2004
From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 01:17:21 -0000
Subject: Snuffing Out Snape (Re: Snape, the "Deeply Horrible Person")
In-Reply-To: <c4a7du+88dr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4ahr1+bill@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94461

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" <stevejjen at e...> 
wrote:
 
> 
> Jen: For Snape to be redeemed in the end, he needs to be dead. I 
> can't even tell you why I feel this way. I don't hate the 
character--
> he's an interesting read, and has played an important role in 
> Harry's life and magical development, if not a particularly 
> *pleasant* role.
> 
> Does anyone else feel this way and if so, please explain it to 
me?!?


I don't totally agree but understand and I think I might be able to 
explain it this way: to my thinking, as I've said here ad-nauseum, 
what is driving Snape is less the good-against-evil fight than some 
terrible, driving, deeply personal motive. He's doing the "right 
thing" certainly, but for what reason? For JKR to pull a fast one on 
us this late in the game and say "whoopsie, he's ESE! and has been 
all along," would be completely out-of-line with the way she's so 
carefully set up her story arc so far. Not to mention it would be 
not only a profound disappointment to fans but a cop-out as a 
writing device.
What I think you might be sensing is that this motive of Snape's, 
whatever it is, is so powerful and so all-consuming, that once he 
has obtained his goal he may very well find that he has nothing left 
to live for.
That is my fear for Snape now--a fate worse than death, indeed.

Mel




From kking0731 at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 30 01:53:01 2004
From: kking0731 at hotmail.com (Kathy King)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 20:53:01 -0500
Subject: JKR excerps from a magazine
Message-ID: <Sea2-F69khqntKrUV0h00024b36@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94462


I know that a lot of people enjoy, along with myself, interviews from Jkr. I 
recently bought a magazine, which is a collectors edition of Movie Magic. 
There are a few quotes that (to me) answer a few of the questions that have 
come up in the posts. I am just copying a few excerpts from the article. 
Jkr:

Harry, she continued, is someone forced to make his own choices in life. 
He has very limited access to truly caring adults and he is guided by 
conscience. He makes mistakes, repeatedly, but, like I said, he is 
ultimately guided by his conscience. He is also flanked by two friends. They 
work far better as a team than apart, though Harry tends to be the one who 
has to shoulder most of the burden. He is the true hero in that sense. Then 
theres Hermione, who is really the brain of the outfit, and Ron, who is 
also a very brave character.

Weve had a glut of very realistic, gritty, very bleak books, says 
Rowling. Some of them are brilliantly written, and I think it would be a 
tragedy if they werent being written. Having said that, though, I dont 
think Harry is an entirely frivolous book. There are difficult things that 
we see Harry go through, but its not an issue book in the sense that you 
would sit down after reading it and think about what this books deals with, 
what it attempts to explain. You see Harry coming to terms with things in 
his life, and I hope that all of that is integral to the story. But its not 
meant to be the main thrust of the story.


What I had found interesting was that twice in the first paragraph she 
repeats that Harry is guided by his conscience. Isnt that the little voice 
inside your head, so to speak?

The second paragraph (really the last two lines) was really something to 
think about. Just thought Id ask you fellow posters what you thought.

I am very curious as to what the main thrust of the story is if its not 
about Harry.

Kathy

_________________________________________________________________
Get rid of annoying pop-up ads with the new MSN Toolbar  FREE! 
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From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 02:23:20 2004
From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 02:23:20 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c4a61t+jl52@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4almo+97ao@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94463

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> 
wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jmgarciaiii" 
> <jmgarciaiii at y...> wrote:
> 
> > One thing that I think keeps getting missed is that "Neville's 
> > afraid of what Neville's afraid." I don't think anyone can 
> >convince Neville (or anyone) to be less afraid of X and more 
> >afraid of Y.
> 
> I'm not sure this is true.  
> ***
> Harry thought....What scared him most in the world?
> His first thought was Lord Voldemort -- a Voldemort returned to 
> full strength. But before he had even begun to plan  a 
> counterattack on a boggart-Voldemort, a horrible image came 
> floating to the surface of his mind.
> ***
> PoA ch 7

Ah...but this is HP's thought processes working, NOT anyone 
convincing (or trying to convince) HP that he really shouldn't be 
that afraid of LV and more afraid of a Dementor.
 
> Harry  does have more than one fear in his mind, and it isn't the 
> first one that is the scariest.

As does Neville, but my point was that it's *only* the, er, boggart-
ee to name his or her greatest fear, nobody can influence you to 
fear something to a greater or lesser extent than you do.

-Joe in SoFla




From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 02:32:08 2004
From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 02:32:08 -0000
Subject: Is Neville getting better at Potions?
In-Reply-To: <c4a724+1103t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4am78+3r19@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94464

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> 
wrote:
> All of this talk about how Snape's teaching methos work   with 
> Neville made me notice something. In OOP, Neville doesn't 
> seem to have nearly as much trouble in potions class as usual. 
> He doesn't blow up any cauldrons, IIRC, and there is at least one 
> session where no mention is made of any Neville problems at 
> all.

There may be something to this. In fact, I think this culminates 
during the Potions OWL (Ch. 31, OotP) it says:

<<The afternoon practical was not as dreadful as he had expected it 
to be. With Snape absent from the proceedings, he found that he was 
much more relaxed than he usually was while making potions. Neville, 
who was sitting very near Harry, also looked happier than Harry had 
ever seen him during a Potions class.>>

-Joe in SoFla




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 02:39:52 2004
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 02:39:52 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c48e2l+josr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4amlo+5h7k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94465




Hi, Carol!

In my earlier post I was trying to rebut the argument that Snape's 
behaviour with his students (well, with Harry and Neville as 
representatives of his non-Slytherins) students is just an act. I was 
saying that his failure to resume lessons left me in a doubt.
 
We can argue whether Snape did the best job in teaching Harry. 
Personally, I think that Steve argued pretty persuasively that he did 
not, but since we don't know what is the right way of teaching 
Occlumency according to canon, it is up for grabs, of course.

We can argue whether Harry practiced or not . As Annemehr earlier 
argued - he definitely practiced some, but I'll concede that probably 
not enough.


But that is not the issue for me. The issue is whether Snape had any 
RIGHT reasons for not resuming Occlumency lessons.

> You said in another post that if Dumbledore knew that Snape had
> stopped the lessons, then you would consider not blaming Snape for
> letting Harry have the dream that sent him to the MoM. (Forgive the
> bad paraphrase--if that's not your meaning, please correct me.)

Well, not exactly. I guess I just wanted to emphasize that 
Dumbledore  has a lion share of blame for this mess, IMO. Sorry for 
being unclear.

> Dumbledore *did* know, as he tells Harry after the battle at the 
MoM:
> 
> "Snape stopped giving me Occlumency lessons! Harry snarled. "He 
threw
> me out of his office!"
> 
> "I am aware of it," said Dumbledore heavily. "I have already said 
that
> it was a mistake for me not to teach you myself. . . ."
>

Yes, he did know, but I am still not sure when he learned. There is 
no evidence that Snape went to him right after Pensieve incident. It 
could be that he learned after the fact. really, with him confessing 
to  making so many mistakes should we be surprised that he made 
another one?


Let's go to start of the Occlumency, shall we?

" "Well, then why do I have to learn Occlumency?"
Snape eyed Harry, tracing his mouth with one long, thin finger as he 
did so.
The usual rules do not seem to apply with you, Potter. The curse that 
failed to kill you seems to have forged some kind of the connection 
between you and the Dark Lord. The evidence suggests that at times, 
when your mind is most relaxed and vulnerable - when you are asleep, 
for instance - you are sharing Dark Lord's thoughts and emotions. The 
headmaster thinks it is inadvisable for this to continue. He wishes 
me to teach you how to close your mind to Dark Lord" (OoP, p.531)

After reading this much discussed paragrapth, I think it is safe to 
assume that Snape knows a lot about  the reasons for the lessons to 
start, right? 

"Snape stared at Harry for a few moments, still tracing his mouth 
with his finger, Whenm he spoke again, it was slowly and 
deliberately, as though he weighed every word.
It appears that the Dark Lord has been unaware of the connection 
between you and himself till very recently. Up till now it seems that 
you have been experiencing his emotions and sharing his thoughts 
without his being any wiser. However, the vision you had shortly 
before Cristmas. ... "
(OoP, p.532)

Snape is pretty well informed, isn't he? 


What am I getting at? Nothing new, I am afraid. He knew pretty well 
how harmful will be to allow Voldie to enter into Harry's mind 
consciously.


I guess I just don't see any reasons for the Light Side to be happy 
with the end of the lessons and PLENTY of reasons for Voldie to be 
happy at such development.

Yes, it is a complicated chain of events which lead to the mess at 
MoM, but I am afraid Snape played mighty big part in it.


I don't even see the end of the lessons as LESSER evil to choose. I 
just see it as EVIL, period.

> "I trust Severus Snape," said Dumbledore simply. "But I forgot. . .
> that some wounds run too deep for the healing. I thought Professor
> Snape could overcome his feelings about your father--I was wrong." 
(833)
> 
> Note that the abandonment of the Occlumency lessons does not 
diminish
> Dumbledore's trust in Snape. Nor does he apparently blame Snape
> stopping the lessons. Dumbledore could have ordered Snape to "get 
over
> it" and resume the lessons, but he didn't. Why not? Might it be that
> *Snape* sensed that they were doing more harm than good and asked
> Dumbledore to let him abandon them? Was there something in that
> Pensieve that it would have been extremely dangerous for Voldemort 
to
> see in Harry's mind? 


I a afraid I don't place much faith in Dumbledore's trust anymore. 
Sorry! As I said before I am not so sure that dumbledore knew about 
the end of the lessons right away.

You said that it would be dangerous for Harry to see another memories 
which Snape put into Pensieve. Could you clarify, please?
Do you think that Harry would have wanted to look into Pensieve 
again, if the lessons were continued?

I would think that he would not want to have anything to do with 
those for a long, long time.

 
> JKR has told us to watch Snape carefully and not to judge him by
> appearances. The Occlumency lessons and their abandonment are 
examples
> of the sort of scene into which we can easily read too much--or too
> little. Even if Snape is wholly at fault (and I don't think he is),
> his decision to end the Occlumency lessons no more caused Harry to 
go
> to the MoM than Harry's going to the MoM caused Sirius's death or 
his
> saving Peter caused Voldemort's return. It is one event in a complex
> chain of events, one decision among many. And it should also be
> weighed against Snape's other actions and decisions. One mistake--if
> it was a mistake--should not be grounds for condemning a character 
who
>  in other circumstances shows great courage and loyalty to 
Dumbledore.
> At the very least, we should reserve judgment until the end of Book 
7.
> 
> Carol


Yes, it is one event and of course I can change my judgment about 
Snape plenty of time (and I suspect I may), but it is just too big of 
the event for me not to draw negative inferences, so to speak.

It is the reason, why I am not even sure I'll buy "Snape as a drill 
sergeant" argument anymore. See, intent is very important to me and I 
think that the drill sergeant when conducts his training has his 
soldiers survival in mind (we are back to "toughen up")

I now think quite often that Snape does not think about his students 
(again I am talking about Harry and Neville most of the times of 
course) survival, but only about how to cause them as much pain and 
humiliation as possible. Maybe survival will come as extra bonus, 
maybe not.

I will be very very happy to be proven wrong. Usually Snape type hero 
is my favourite character in the book, that is why I still have some 
hopes for him, but my patience is running thin. :o)


Alla




From jasnyder at intrex.net  Tue Mar 30 03:09:27 2004
From: jasnyder at intrex.net (Jen Snyder)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 22:09:27 -0500
Subject: JKR's "small thing" in CoS
Message-ID: <BNEHIILJKELAIEMOJLOGKEBOCDAA.jasnyder@intrex.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 94466

Hello everyone...

There's something I'd been thinking about even before the release of OotP,
but when JKR said in the recent World Book Day chat that there was a "small
thing" she'd put in CoS that almost gave everything away, I was reminded of
it...I wonder if that small thing is the fact that Tom Riddle doesn't seem
to have any difficulty using Harry's wand.  We know that a wizard will never
get as good results with another wizard's wand, according to Ollivander, and
we've seen Neville and Ron struggle with using others' wands.  Yet
Diary!Riddle just picks up Harry's and uses it.  Granted, he doesn't really
do anything with it other than write his name in the air, but at one point
he's intending to use it on Harry, and doesn't seem at all concerned that he
might not be able to do with it what he wants.  Maybe this could reveal more
about Tom and Harry's relationship than JKR would want to have revealed (or
at least have revealed during CoS)?

Jen




From BrwNeil at aol.com  Tue Mar 30 03:17:53 2004
From: BrwNeil at aol.com (BrwNeil at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 22:17:53 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Werewolf Cubs?
Message-ID: <da.6d3270b.2d9a40e1@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94467

In a message dated 3/29/2004 7:54:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
diagonalley038 at yahoo.ca writes:
Robert Jones <jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>> In the COS p. 311 US ed., Tom Riddle ridicules Hagrid for trying 
to raise werewolf cubs.  What are werewolf cubs?  Don't people become 
werewolves by being bitten like Lupin?  Does this mean that if Lupin 
had children they would be werewolves? <<

I personally think that is someone like Lupin had children, his 
children would be werewolf cubs at first, but gradually grow into 
a werewolf like Lupin. I think... if you understand what I'm trying 
to say.


"Hermione" 
Interesting question, but one with neither a right or wrong answer since 
werewolves do not actually exist.  

The truth lies in the hands of the writer.  Many say that the werewolf can 
lead a "normal" life and raise a family.  Others say that all children born 
would be werewolves.  Evidently Rowling feels that if Lupin has children they will 
be werewolves.



Neil


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From stevejjen at earthlink.net  Tue Mar 30 03:49:03 2004
From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 03:49:03 -0000
Subject: JKR's "small thing" in CoS
In-Reply-To: <BNEHIILJKELAIEMOJLOGKEBOCDAA.jasnyder@intrex.net>
Message-ID: <c4aqnf+qnf0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94468

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Snyder" <jasnyder at i...> 
wrote:
> There's something I'd been thinking about even before the release 
of OotP,
> but when JKR said in the recent World Book Day chat that there was 
a "small
> thing" she'd put in CoS that almost gave everything away...

Jen R.: Hi Jen! There's always another Jennifer, eh? 

I don't think that information came from the World day Chat. I've 
seen that particular comment referenced several times, but haven't 
actually seen an interview transcript to verify it. If I'm wrong, 
please correct me and send me a link! 

I've thought a lot about what could 'give it all away' on the 
outside chance JKR said that. I think it must be the link between 
Riddle and Ginny, how as TR grows stronger, Ginny grows weaker and 
vice-versa. This foreshadows the link between LV and Harry, which we 
find out in OOTP is getting stronger. Also in OOTP, we find out more 
information about the scar as the connection point between the 
two, "in essence divided". This isn't a small thing, of course, but 
when I heard the of the rumored quote the first time, it was only 
that JKR mentioned she "gave too much away" in COS. 

Jen R., continuing the rumor because it's just too intriguing to 
pass up.




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Tue Mar 30 03:57:07 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 03:57:07 -0000
Subject: JKR excerps from a magazine
In-Reply-To: <Sea2-F69khqntKrUV0h00024b36@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <c4ar6j+9lug@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94469

Kathy King wrote:
> I recently bought a magazine, which is a collector's edition 
> of "Movie Magic". 

> 
"Harry," she continued, "is someone forced to make his own 
> choices in life. He has very limited access to truly caring adults 
> and he is guided by conscience. He makes mistakes, repeatedly, 
> but, like I said, he is ultimately guided by his conscience. 

> Just thought I'd ask you fellow posters what you thought.

Siriusly Snapey Susan:
Selfishly, I feel somewhat vindicated by her first comments, in that 
I argued some time back that Harry *does* have CHOICE, that DD's not 
running the show so totally that Harry is simply his puppet on a 
string.  I'm pleased to see *JKR* saying that he makes his own 
choices!

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Tue Mar 30 04:01:51 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 04:01:51 -0000
Subject: JKR's "small thing" in CoS
In-Reply-To: <c4aqnf+qnf0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4arff+66lq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94470

Jen S. wrote:
> > There's something I'd been thinking about even before the 
> > release of OotP, but when JKR said in the recent World Book Day 
> > chat that there was a "small thing" she'd put in CoS that almost 
> > gave everything away...
 
Jen R.: 
> 
> I don't think that information came from the World day Chat. I've 
> seen that particular comment referenced several times, but haven't 
> actually seen an interview transcript to verify it. If I'm wrong, 
> please correct me and send me a link! 
> 

Susan:
Yes, Jen S.!!  I agree with Jen R., **please** send any link you can 
find to this.  I was one of the ones who claimed to have heard this 
[I think it was *heard* rather than *read*] but have been unable to 
unearth a quote.  

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 30 04:08:00 2004
From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 04:08:00 -0000
Subject: FILK: That'll Show Him
Message-ID: <c4arr0+grps@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94471

Song #14 from A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Chamber (two 
to go ? the reprises of Lovely and Comedy Tonight)

That'll Show Him (CoS, Chap.  10)

To the tune of the same name from Sondheim's A Funny Thing Happened 
on the Way to the Forum

Text and a brief excerpt here

http://users.bestweb.net/~foosie/forum.htm

Dedicated to Ginger (friend to house-elves) 

THE SCENE: Pomfrey's infirmary. As HARRY waits for his arm bones to 
regrow, DOBBY explains his "tough love" strategy.

DOBBY (spoken) Harry Potter must go home! Dobby thought his Bludger 
would be enough to make-

HARRY (interrupting): Your Bludger?  What d'you mean, your Bludger? 
You made that Bludger try and kill me?

DOBBY: Not kill you, sir, never kill you! - Dobby wants to save Harry 
Potter's life! Better sent home, grievously injured, than remain here 
sir! Dobby only wanted Harry Potter hurt enough to be sent home!

HARRY: Oh, is that all? I don't suppose you're going to tell me why 
you wanted me sent home in pieces?

DOBBY: Ah, Harry Potter has provided Dobby with a cue



(music) 
Let the Malfoys beat and abuse me,
I will still persist!
Then let Lucius harshly accuse me
I will not desist.
I will be the Dobby who'll save you 
The house-elf named Dobby will save you,
When at long last Dobby has saved you,
He will be so pissed!

When I bash you,
I'll be bashing him,
That'll make him so awfully mad -
That'll show him

When I gash you,
I'll be gashing him,
So I'll gash you ten times as bad -
That'll show him, too!
They called me the dregs of the magic world
Now vict'ry's unfurled
If Malfoy's hit!

When it's over
And you're in intensive care
With two broken knees
And with severe head injuries,
Then he'll see here
How much he needs to beware!

    -	CMC

HARRY POTTER FILKS 
http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm 





From kking0731 at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 30 04:08:32 2004
From: kking0731 at hotmail.com (Kathy King)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 23:08:32 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR's "small thing" in CoS
Message-ID: <Sea2-F11ghozGdyLSTV0003467d@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94472






February 2003

Interview with Steve Kloves and J.K. Rowling, Moderated by Lizo Mzimba


Steve:
I will sometimes ask Jo. I will say, you know, this detail, you just seem to 
have cast just a bit more light on this in this scene than the other 
details. Sometimes I'm wrong, but often she'll say "No, that is going to 
play." There's one thing in Chamber, actually, that Jo indicated will play 
later in the series. The hardest thing for me, honestly, is I'm writing a 
story to which I do not know the end. Which is, I'm not going to lie to you, 
has been the case sometimes in my own originals, JKR:
I was gonna say!
Steve:
But I assume I will find an end. With this, it's just I'm writing a story 
over a decade, and I keep waiting, you know, keep hoping that Jo will 
slip-up and actually tell me something.


This is the excerpt I think you may have been thinking of.



Kathy

_________________________________________________________________
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http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/




From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 03:59:09 2004
From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (Ms Mo Me)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 19:59:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Harry's disposition
In-Reply-To: <1080576712.28480.31305.m7@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040330035909.33126.qmail@web13506.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94473

I think Harry is acting perfectly normal considering
his circumstances in OoP.

He was shut away with his Aunt and Uncle for a month
and not told anything after what he went through the
previous school year.  THEN he was attacked by
dementors.

THEN he gets a letter saying he is kicked out of
school, then another letter saying to stay where he is
without much explanation, and then another letter
saying he will have to stand trial.

THEN he is taken to the Order and STILL not given too
much information.

He BARELY passes his trial, and DD won't look a him
(for good reason) but doens't bother to tell HP WHY,
nor does he inform anyone else.  So, for an entire
year HP thinks DD doesn't like him or something.

His two best friends are made prefect (a little bit of
an ego shock/let down)  And to top it all off, his
worst enemy, Malfoy, is also a prefect.  So, now,
instead of Malfoy being an "equal student" whom HP
dislikes, now Malfoy has a small AUTHORITY over HP. 
Which in itself is EXTREMELY frustrating.

He goes back to school only to find out he's the
laughing stock of the WW and has to deal with Umbridge
calling him a liar and slicing open the back of his
hand night after night.  And, he has to put up with
even some of his so called "friends" at school not
believing him and thinking he's off his rocker.

He is constantly worried about his loved ones and
friends getting killed.  He continually has nightmares
about Cedric, the door, LV, etc.  

He has to deal with the stress of O.W.L.'s and Snape
beating down his throat.

He is dealing with conflicting emotions with Cho, whom
he really likes.  But, at the same time, HP has little
experience in the romatic field and has to deal with
new situations and feelings.

The list goes on and on........

I would be a little peeved (no, not Peeves!) too if
this was going on in my life.  A 15 year old boy can
only handle so much!  

If Harry is a little angry and snappy at times, he has
every right to be!


~Mo, who thinks JKR has great insite into the human psyche.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html



From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 04:15:01 2004
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 04:15:01 -0000
Subject: Harry's disposition
In-Reply-To: <20040330035909.33126.qmail@web13506.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c4as86+63ca@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94474

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ms Mo Me <fauntine_80 at y...> 
wrote:
> 
> If Harry is a little angry and snappy at times, he has
> every right to be!
> 
> 
> ~Mo, who thinks JKR has great insite into the human psyche.
> 
Snips Mo's excellent post, because really agrees with every word of 
it.

I just want to add one thing - it was surprising for me why Harry did 
not show his anger more earlier in life - surely being locked in the 
cupboard does not make one to be very happy individual.
I guess we are supposed to believe that Lily's love kinda protected 
him from that.

Alla




From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 04:14:32 2004
From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (Ms Mo Me)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 20:14:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Use of brooms
In-Reply-To: <1080605796.11036.39746.m8@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040330041432.21232.qmail@web13501.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94475

Message: 7
   Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 20:15:42 -0000
   From: "weirdsister06" <weirdsister06 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Use of brooms

Does flying a broomstick involve the use of magic?  

Underage wizards are able to fly during school
holidays without 
reprimand from the Improper Use of Magic Office.  Ron
and his 
brothers practice quidditch, the little children flew
mini-brooms 
during the Quidditch World Cup, and Harry escaped from
Privet Dr on 
his broom in OotP.  If flying a broom does not involve
magic, and 
the broom is merely a mode of transport like a portkey
or floo 
powder, can muggles fly?  What if a muggle picked up a
portkey or 
tried to use floo powder?


Mo:

Well, I think there IS some magic involved, since we
see in SS/PS that not all of the students can get
their brooms to rise on the first try.  

As for floo powder, who knows???  I think that it MAY
work on Muggles since magic can be used ON them, such
as memory charms, etc.

Similarly, to your post, I have always wondered why
only STUDENTS were forbiden to use magic under the
decree of Underage Wizadry.  We see that HP used magic
several times, without his knowledge, before he found
out he was a wizard.  And, we see children using magic
at the world cup, as with the kid, his dad's wand, and
the slug.
Now, I don't know if the ministry doesn't regulate
them too much because they aren't old enought to have
a wand, yet, and their magic can't do anything
significant.  But, I WOULD like to know why they are
allowed, and Hogwarts student's aren't.


~Mo 

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html



From jujupoet29 at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 30 04:49:11 2004
From: jujupoet29 at hotmail.com (sienna291973)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 04:49:11 -0000
Subject: Harry's disposition
In-Reply-To: <20040330035909.33126.qmail@web13506.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c4au87+s0l7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94476

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ms Mo Me <fauntine_80 at y...> 
wrote:
*snip* 
> The list goes on and on........
> 
> I would be a little peeved (no, not Peeves!) too if
> this was going on in my life.  A 15 year old boy can
> only handle so much!  
> 
> If Harry is a little angry and snappy at times, he has
> every right to be!
> 
> 
> ~Mo, who thinks JKR has great insite into the human psyche.

Well said Mo! I think Harry behaved admirably all things 
considered.  In fact, considering that he has struggled under more 
pressure than any other student in the school (ever if we are to 
believe DD), I'm continually surprised that he manages to hold it 
together at all (and matching Ron in study... really Ron should be 
streaks ahead considering how little he has to worry about).  I 
wasn't at all upset by Angry!Harry.  On the contrary, I was pleased 
to see him finally airing some of his (valid) emotions.

Sienna





From erinellii at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 07:04:00 2004
From: erinellii at yahoo.com (Erin)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 07:04:00 -0000
Subject: Ron=DD & Surviving Twin=Aberforth?
In-Reply-To: <20040329140845.1AE8B30E5A7@front.interia.pl>
Message-ID: <c4b650+r4af@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94477

viridis wrote:

> Twins theory solves Aberforth problem. 

<snip> 

> As briliant and creative the twins  are, I wouldn't be surprised if 
one chose a calm life of the bartender. Especially that he'd have his 
living paid by the profits from Zonko's they established 120 years 
ago, when they went back in time. 
> And goats? If one can be crazy enough to became a Headmaster of a 
school with a 1000 kids - goats seem really innocent pastime in 
comparison.

Erin:

I don't like twins as DD simply because they are built wrong 
physically for it.  Ron has the tall, thin DD build, the twins are 
short.

I do love the twin as Aberforth idea, though.

So....What about combining theories?  Say, for instance, Ron=DD with 
A Twin=Aberforth with a Dead!Twin scenario.

Say for instance Fred is killed in the struggle with Voldemort, 
shortly afterwards Ron discovers he has to go back in time and be DD 
(sometime before NEWTS, at any rate) and George volunteers to go with 
him because, with Fred gone, there's nothing for George in the 
present anymore.  Could be either twin who bites it, I just used Fred 
in this example.

Definitely explains the goat, and in a non-sexual way, too. Yay! Also 
the remark about not reading, as the twins never finished Hogwarts.  
And with one twin dead, the other might well give up heart on the 
joke shop and take up bartending instead.

Perhaps the long white beards they sprouted when trying to cross the 
age line in GoF were a clue?


Erin




From erinellii at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 07:08:18 2004
From: erinellii at yahoo.com (Erin)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 07:08:18 -0000
Subject: Ron=DD?
In-Reply-To: <c482j4+dosd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4b6d2+smm6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94478

Elisabeth wrote:
 
> Why Percy?  Why not Bill?  In my way of thinking, there are a lot 
of 
> similarities between Dumbledore and Bill--as far as personality 
> goes.  Bill definitely wouldn't know as much as Ron does, so the 
> question of why Albus is so in the dark concerning the Animagi, 
etc, could be answered.  
> 
> I mean, honestly, I think it's more likely to be Ron than Bill--
> particularly since I read OoP...there was much less from Bill than 
I had hoped.  But why discount him?


Erin:

Because he's evil, maybe?  I'm firmly convinced that Bill will turn 
out to be the traitor in the OotP.  

Plus Dumbledore doesn't have a pierced ear.... 


Erin




From naama2486 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 07:54:53 2004
From: naama2486 at yahoo.com (Amanar)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 07:54:53 -0000
Subject: Life-saving bonds
In-Reply-To: <c4802s+9b8n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4b94d+bams@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94479

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jmgarciaiii" 
<jmgarciaiii at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kimberly" <ekrbdg at m...> 
wrote:
> > 
> > >Hmm...
> > 
> > >Amanar (why can't Snape be a vamp? WHY? Oh cruel world!)
> > 
> > *Kimberly's comment*
> > I'm not arguing the point that Snape is or isn't a 
> vampire...however, while re-reading GoF this week, this quote 
jumped 
> out at me.
> > 
> > GoF, Amer. Ed., pg. 566
> > Harry and Ron are discussing Snape and what happened to Mr. 
> Crouch....
> > 
> > "Maybe-hang on-how fast d'you reckon he could've gotten down to 
> the forest ?   D'you reckon he could've beat you and Dumbledore 
> there?"   
> > 
> > "Not unless he can turn himself into a bat or something," said 
> Harry.
> 
> I was always taken with THIS quote from Quirrel in PS/SS:
> 
> <<Yes, Severus does seem the type, doesn't he? So useful to have 
him 
> swooping around like an overgrown bat.>>
> 
> -Joe in SoFla

Amanar:
*sigh* I was convinced by Lupin's vampire essay, but as we all know, 
JKR stomped the whole theory on the last webchat she gave on March 
4th. When somebody asked her whether there is a link between Snape 
and vampires, she answered "erm... no."




From carolynwhite2 at aol.com  Tue Mar 30 07:59:48 2004
From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 07:59:48 -0000
Subject: Ottery St-Catchpole and Wizard War II
In-Reply-To: <c4a79h+b2kq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4b9dk+q3ld@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94480

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fiondavhar" <enigma_only at h...> 
wrote:

> 
> So far as I can tell, there must be two Fawcett girls (at least) 
one 
> in Ravenclaw (who tried to cross Dumbledores age line and came out 
> with a beard) and one in Hufflepuff (who was blasted out of a rose 
> bush by Snape). I believe I have heard them mentioned before as 
well, 
> but I don't have time to re-read the series right now and make sure.
> 
> Bonny

Carolyn:
Oooh, a fellow enthusiast for the lives of totally minor and 
otherwise unmentioned characters! (see recent RadioTBay interview 
with Kirley McCormack). I think there could be possibly three Fawcett 
children at Hogwarts, as in addition to the two you mention, a Miss 
Fawcett is mentioned in the duelling scene in CS:

Lockhart says: 'careful there, Miss Fawcett.. pinch it hard, it'll 
stop bleeding in a second..'. As this is a mixed scene full of all 
the Hogwarts students, we can't tell whether it is either the 
Hufflepuff or Ravenclaw girl, or yet another.

Wonder if any of them will have a fling with any of the Weasley boys 
down in Ottery St Mary?




From naama2486 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 08:04:07 2004
From: naama2486 at yahoo.com (Amanar)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 08:04:07 -0000
Subject: PS/SS question
Message-ID: <c4b9ln+d5pl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94481

I've been re-reading book 1 and was wondering - when Harry meets 
Quirrel in the last chamber ("The Man with Two Faces" chapter)
Quirrel tells Harry that Snape suspected him from the very beggining 
and that he was already onto him when Harry eavesdropped on them in 
the forest (haven't got the book with me so can't give an exact 
quote).

What exactly was Snape suspecting Quirrel for? Did he know that 
Quirrel was after the Stone, or did he suspect Quirrel wanted the 
Stone to aid Lord Voldemort?

--Amanar.


<<And then a giant cookie came running down the hill!>>




From delwynmarch at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 08:10:19 2004
From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 08:10:19 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Harry=92s_anger:_neither_teen_angst_nor_channeling_Voldemort?=
In-Reply-To: <c49gv4+kaqg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4ba1b+i61k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94482


> Ffi:
> but it's always occurred to me that Harry's anger/behaviour had 
> something to do with the fact that LV was getting in to his head.  
> (...) His anger oftenf alred up without him really knowing why - 
> the 'wy' might be because it wasn't his anger.  It just came out 
> when he was annoyed about something, when he was less in control 
> of himself and therefore less able, without knowing, to 'be' 
> himself against LV's intrusions into his mind.
> 
> Of course, teenage angst had a lot to do with it, but the sudden 
> flares of anger without real explanation does suggst to me the 
> effects of having your mind slowly intruded upon by a violent, 
> angry, undesirable evil LV.

Del :
I have to disagree. I'm very accustomed to those flares of anger. 
I've seen them again and again, both in myself and in others. As you 
say, they come when one is annoyed about something and momentarily 
less in control than usual, for whatever reason. They are incredibly 
normal and natural, and there's no need for an evil possession to 
explain them.

JKR makes it very clear that the feelings LV creates in Harry are 
very different : they *truly* come out of the blue, they never have 
*anything* to do with Harry's present circumstances.

Del




From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 04:28:51 2004
From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (Ms Mo Me)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 20:28:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 4409
In-Reply-To: <1080605796.11036.39746.m8@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040330042851.4420.qmail@web13504.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94483


   From: "Chelle" <teshara at yahoo.com>
Subject: Ollivander a Dragon Slayer?

Ollivander had always been a person that has gotten my
attention. He
makes all the wands for everyone, we know that. He
collects the
finest things for his materials: Phoenix feathers,
unicorn hair,
dragon heartstring....

Dragon heartstring?

OK, Fawkes is bound to shed feathers from time to
time. I'm sure
others like him do the same. 

<snip>

Any thoughts?

~ Chelle


Mo:

I was laughing so hard when I read your post.  I never
gave Olivander wand cores a second thought, but now
that you mention it, it does seem a little odd,
doesn't it? 

We don't know too much about the slaying of dragons,
if it is allowed and whatnot.  But, dragons are pretty
big, and I am guessing their hearts are too, and if
there is only one heartstring per wand, I am guessing
one heart could produce several thousand heartstrings
and make several wands.

So, to stay in buisness, he would only have to slay
maybe one dragon ever 10 years or so.   This is
strictly by speculation and pure "guesstimation" that
I come to this conclusion.   I really have no idea how
many "strings" are in a dragon heart.

But, you bring up a rather interesting and unique
topic!  Hmmm...  Suddenly I am getting images of a
little Mr. Olivander sleighing mighty dragons and
hiding behind bushes patiently waiting for the next
unsuspecting Unicorn to walk by as he yanks out some
of its tail.

~Mo

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html



From catherinemck at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 30 09:00:33 2004
From: catherinemck at hotmail.com (catherinemckiernan)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 09:00:33 -0000
Subject: JKR excerps from a magazine
In-Reply-To: <Sea2-F69khqntKrUV0h00024b36@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <c4bcvh+pdss@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94484

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathy King" <kking0731 at h...> 
wrote:
> 
> I know that a lot of people enjoy, along with myself, interviews 
from Jkr. I 
> recently bought a magazine, which is a collector's edition 
of "Movie Magic". 
> There are a few quotes that (to me) answer a few of the questions 
that have 
> come up in the posts. I am just copying a few excerpts from the 
article. 
> Jkr:
> 
> 
"Harry," she continued, "is someone forced to make his own choices 
in life. 
> He has very limited access to truly caring adults and he is guided 
by 
> conscience. He makes mistakes, repeatedly, but, like I said, he is 
> ultimately guided by his conscience. He is also flanked by two 
friends. They 
> work far better as a team than apart, though Harry tends to be the 
one who 
> has to shoulder most of the burden. He is the true hero in that 
sense. Then 
> there's Hermione, who is really the brain of the outfit, and Ron, 
who is 
> also a very brave character."


<snip second paragraph> 
 
> What I had found interesting was that twice in the first paragraph 
she 
> repeats that Harry is guided by his conscience. Isn't that the 
little voice 
> inside your head, so to speak?

Catherine McK

But isn't the little voice inside Harry's head Lord Voldemort....?

I suppose that JKR is saying that Harry, with little guidance from 
the more experienced, can only do what he thinks is right ? Ron and 
Hermione help with the practicalities. Perhaps the message of the 
books is that Harry has to learn not to be guided by his conscience, 
but to accept the considered advice of people he can trust (like 
Hermione), both to share the burden and to have a higher chance of 
making the right choice. 

Catherine McK




From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Tue Mar 30 09:06:01 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 09:06:01 -0000
Subject: Snuffing Out Snape (Re: Snape, the "Deeply Horrible Person")
In-Reply-To: <c4a7du+88dr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4bd9p+6tff@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94485

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" <stevejjen at e...> wrote:
> 
> Jen: For Snape to be redeemed in the end, he needs to be dead. I 
> can't even tell you why I feel this way. I don't hate the character--
> he's an interesting read, and has played an important role in 
> Harry's life and magical development, if not a particularly 
> *pleasant* role.
> 
> Does anyone else feel this way and if so, please explain it to me?!?
> 
> So, no, I don't want to see a kinder, gentler Snape (yuck--can you 
> imagine?). I do think it's important he play a pivotal role in 
> assisting Harry one more time with LV, then he meets his maker.
> 

Well, it  all depends on how you  see Snape and how you think the
story will go, plus personal attitudes to mayhem and violence as
a plot resolution device. Those who hope or expect that decency,
moderation, forgiveness or sweetness  and light to prevail will
have one view; I take the other. (Surprise, surprise.)

Look at the way Snape has been presented over 5 books -  he's
almost been written into a cul-de-sac. Unlikeable person, doing
a dangerous job for the Order, a deserter from Voldy - not a
naturally forgiving employer,  the personal enemy of the putative
hero and not giving a damn about it, a loner.
Nah, he's been handed the Black Spot all right.

Some may disagree with the description 'loner', but IMO he is a very
private person - he never talks about himself or his past without
great provocation. He is not gregarious  by nature.Yes, he  joined
the Order, but not through any philosophical belief in goodness or 
rejection of evil. The Order is a means to an end - a very personal end.

There is a small band of posters, possibly steeped in the tradition of
Restoration tragedy (where usually *everybody* ends up dead) who
recognise the Snape character. And he's motivated by  revenge. You're
probably  sick and tired of reading Kneasy, together with the likes of
melclaros banging on about the same old thing, but that's because
no other outcome would tie up so many loose ends and remain
credible. To have an end where sunshine floods sweeping meadows,
bluebirds twitter on high and Snape becomes a bluff, kindly old duffer
might suit Disney (spit), but it would hardly be true to the tale.

He might well be redeemed; probably will be - but it will be an equivocal
action. What he does will be of benefit to the  general good but he
will do it for *personal* reasons. The 'general good' is not a concept
that he would feel is particularly relevant to his situation. He doesn't
give a  toss what anyone thinks about him; he's totally unconcerned
that so many hate or distrust  him, so long as they don't hinder him
in his pursuit of his enemy's downfall.

He'll die. I only hope that when he does, it's close enough to the end
for him to recognise that he's a winner, that he is revenged. He might
not be 'nice', but I think he deserves that. After all, Voldy was the one
responsible for what happened to his family, wasn't he? 
What? 
You didn't know? 
You can't have been listening - I've told you often enough.

Kneasy






From drednort at alphalink.com.au  Tue Mar 30 09:11:38 2004
From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 19:11:38 +1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape as A-hole Drill Sargeant [was: Re: Harry, Snape,Occlumency]
In-Reply-To: <c4a4rg+ku9g@eGroups.com>
References: <40691756.31077.31905EE@localhost>
Message-ID: <4069C66A.30658.3A72EC@localhost>

No: HPFGUIDX 94486

On 29 Mar 2004 at 21:35, cubfanbudwoman wrote:

> 1)  You are very right that we don't know how many of the other kids 
> in Snape's class are doing.  
> 
> 2)  I think you may be hitting on something important about your 
> experience w/ those two teachers *and* about Snape as well.  You 
> learned *a lot* from those two teachers.  And, unless I'm mistaken, 
> one thing we DON'T hear the Hogwarts kids saying is that Snape 
> doesn't know the materials he's teaching.  On the contrary, I think 
> they recognize his gifts as a potions master.  In my experience as a 
> teacher, and thinking of the one colleague in my school who 
> was "Snape-like" in his "tyranny", one of the key reasons why kids 
> put up w/ that teacher's antics is that he was so knowledgable about 
> the subject.  If the teacher was incompetent *and* a tyrant, they 
> never would have, and I suspect if Snape didn't know his stuff, 
> there would be a lot more open protesting going on.

Yes, and I think the key to why we accepted these teachers and 
their 'funny little ways' was because we knew they were extremely 
competent. We wouldn't have accepted what they did anywhere near as 
readily, if we understood that fact.
 
> Q:  Since you didn't mention this part, how old were you when you 
> had those two Snape-like teachers?  It may not matter, but I'm just 
> curious.  Your comment about working w/ the teacher over time makes 
> me wonder if I'm not somewhat right about the ability of younger 
> kids (11, 12 or so) being less able to handle Asshole Drill Sergeant 
> teachers.

Well, I was 13 when I encountered the first one - whom I only had 
for that one year. And 14 with the second and I had him as a 
teacher in various subjects for the next three years. It wasn't 
until I was probably 15 - so I had him for a year and a half - 
before he started to seem human. Prior to that, his classes were 
quite a hideous experience for me. He had very limited tolerance 
for mistakes - because he knew we wouldn't be in his classes unless 
we were capable of doing well - and in my case, nearly all my 
mistakes were a result of carelessness or laziness - and he knew it 
and I knew it - and he wouldn't tolerate that.

His classes were very much a sink or swim environment - most of us 
swam.

Fact is - from that man, I only ever remember seeing one sign from 
him of common humanity - and it really wasn't much. My father died 
during my schooling - and that teacher attended his funeral. So did 
a lot of others - I think most of my teachers were there. I 
remember him, though, because I was surprised to see him.

So I was a bit older - but with the first of those teachers, most 
of my classmates had had him as a teacher from the age of 10 (I 
didn't start at the school until I was 13) and from what I heard - 
and what I saw personally - his methods were no different with 10 
year olds than they were with us. Again, it was sink or swim.


Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia




From jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com  Tue Mar 30 09:22:10 2004
From: jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com (mooseming)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 09:22:10 -0000
Subject: JKR's "small thing" in CoS
In-Reply-To: <BNEHIILJKELAIEMOJLOGKEBOCDAA.jasnyder@intrex.net>
Message-ID: <c4be82+989j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94487

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Snyder" <jasnyder at i...> wrote:
> Hello everyone...
> 
> There's something I'd been thinking about even before the release of
OotP,
> but when JKR said in the recent World Book Day chat that there was a
"small
> thing" she'd put in CoS that almost gave everything away, I was
reminded of
> it...I wonder if that small thing is the fact that Tom Riddle
doesn't seem
> to have any difficulty using Harry's wand.  Snip

My how many 'small things' there are to contemplate!

I've also been thinking about this too, especially the Chamber of
Secrets. We've two books to go both based on Harry's school years, so
in principal most of the action should take place at Hogwarts.
Although we've been introduced to other parts of the Wizard World, I
would argue that the School is Harry's home and the center of the
conflict.

It seems to me that this is getting harder for JKR to arrange, in OotP
she fudged it by making Voldy 'hide' and therefore postponed the war,
predicted at the end of GoF, for another year. If that ploy is out for
the next book how is she going to keep Harry at Hogwarts and stop him
from 'doing a Weasley', especially now Sirius is dead and the revenge
issue is unavoidable.

One possible solution is to revisit the Chamber as an area of yet more
undiscovered evil, a narrative gateway between Voldy and Harry based
in the 'heart' of the school. The sorting hat is certainly hinting
that the Salazar issue is unresolved so JKR could also pull all of the
epic threads together using the Chamber.

Is there something in CoS, or in the Chamber itself (confusing much)
that is small but significant and unresolved.

Finally (honest), two books one Chamber, how else is JKR going to fix
the action to Hogwarts?

Jo
Who thinks the books should have been called 'Hogwarts' because that's
the real heroic character.




From delwynmarch at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 09:24:00 2004
From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 09:24:00 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Harry=92s_anger:_neither_teen_angst_nor_channeling_Voldemort?=
In-Reply-To: <c49mnj+76fj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4bebg+42hq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94488


> Steffy:
> I don't consider myself to be a mean person, or the nicest person 
> in the world either.  I have a sadistic side, but I have a tight 
> group of friends.  The benefit of having a group of friends like 
> that is knowing that sometimes you can slip up and be mean, but 
> your friends will understand.

Del :
I agree. And understand, Harry's friends do ! Harry puts a BIG 
strain on their friendship all throughout OoP, he basically *takes 
them for granted* ! But still, they stick by him. Honestly, I don't 
think *I* would have stayed with him. I expect my friends to respect 
me. I expect my friends to not take me for a punching-ball whenever 
they feel bad, no matter how good a reason they have for feeling 
bad, and Harry does that way too often for my taste.

Steffy : 
> Ron hasn't always been the nicest person to Harry.  As Del pointed 
> out in her post, they weren't friends for awhile in GOF, but I am 
> going to disagree with Del, and place most of the blame on Ron for 
> that one.  Ron was mean to Harry.  Yes, when Ron came down the 
> stairs and interuppted Harry while he was speaking to Sirius, it 
> ticked Harry off, but think of what Ron had done.  Harry had 
> always counted on Ron to believe him and be there for him, and 
> when he needed him the most, up to that point, Ron was nowhere to 
> be found, except nursing his bruised ego.

Del :
Let's agree to disagree then, because I'll keep putting most of the 
blame on Harry. For 2 reasons : 
1. He took Ron's unconditional support for granted, when he himself 
wouldn't do that for Hermione the year before. So why should Ron 
believe he's supposed to do that ? 
2. Harry doesn't do a single thing to ease Ron's pain. It's 
always "me, me, me !". Ron does the same I agree, but it's the very 
first time Ron does it, while Harry's done it before. Ron has always 
done everything Harry wanted, but just for once that it's Ron that 
needs something, Harry won't give it to him.
Moreover, a bruised ego is a deep pain. As Hermione explains, Ron 
feels like *everything* and everyone in life is putting him down, 
and the last person he needs to remind him of that is Harry. And 
honestly, put yourself in Ron's place for a second : would you truly 
believe at first that Harry did NOT put his name in ? I wouldn't.

I call that an unbalanced friendship : Harry demands a lot from Ron 
and Hermione, but he often fails to give them when they most need it.

Steffy :
> The Trio care for each other deeply, I think there is much 
> evidence to prove that, and I think that they understand 
> each other, and ultimately their love for each other will bring 
> about the downfall of LV and the DE's.

Del :
I don't know how teenage boys show that they care for their friends, 
but Ron and especially Harry don't strike me as caring that much for 
the other 2. Needing them, yes. But caring for them, not really. As 
for understanding !? Hermione understands the boys quite often, but 
Harry never tries to understand anyone. I know he's pretty clueless, 
but he doesn't even bother picking up the clues when they are laid 
right under his nose by someone else.

I think Harry is still very much entangled in the web of repressed 
emotions that the Dursleys tied around him. He doesn't know what he 
needs deep down, he doesn't know what others need or how to give it 
to them. But he's only 15, and he's got a lot of support and good 
advisors, so there's hope :-) !

Del




From gbannister10 at aol.com  Tue Mar 30 10:00:02 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 10:00:02 -0000
Subject: Pets
In-Reply-To: <c4a4pv+de7u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4bgf2+53sf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94489

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "steffy07" <steffy07 at a...> 
wrote:

> > Geoff:
> > Students may also bring an owl OR a cat OR a toad'"
> > 
> > (PS "Diagon Alley" pp. 52-53 UK edition)
> > 
> > Notice the use of the conditional tense... "may" - and it doesn't 
> > include rabbits or tarantulas (Lee is out of order!)
> 
Steffy:
> BUT...
> If you are going to go by that, then Scabbers is also not allowed.  
> He isn't an owl or cat or toad.  

Geoff:
Hm, I'd completely overlooked Scabby. 

Everybody has a skeleton in the cupboard lurking beneath their 
squeaky clean exterior. This is Percy's version!!

:-)




From delwynmarch at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 10:12:34 2004
From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 10:12:34 -0000
Subject: Is Hermione Supposed to be a Genius?
In-Reply-To: <c4a5tu+trqv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4bh6i+1034v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94490

Robert Jones wrote:
> They also make Hermione out to be a genius.  And I want to object 
> to that now.  Hermione is definitely the best student in school, 
> but I think it is just a matter of her "bookish" interests, not 
> that she is the greatest witch of her generation.

Del :
You're making a classic mistake : opposing cleverness to study. Just 
because you love to study doesn't mean you don't have a big IQ.

Robert :
> Maybe all the magic stuff came naturally to James and Sirius,

Del :
Not so naturally, no. They had to *study* for *3 years* before they 
got the Animagus charm down.

Robert :
> but Hermione studies all the time and is always running off to the 
> library whenever there is a question.

Del :
She goes to the library because she's clever enough to figure out 
that maybe someone else has the answer to her question so she 
doesn't have to reinvent the wheel each time she's got a problem !

Robert :
> But that does not mean she has a particularly great IQ or 
> magical IQ ? it is just how she handles things.
> 
> She just likes school and learning.  In POA, she was jealous of 
> Ron's vacation in Egypt because of what she could have learned 
> there

Del :
What makes you think that she meant *only* theoretical stuff ? She 
might very well have been looking forward to learning practical 
stuff as well.

Robert :
> and rewriting her essay from what she learned in France.  And she 
> took every class in Book 3 and nearly studied herself to death.
> 
> And it doesn't mean she is necessarily that great at "practical" 
> magic.

Del :
We mustn't be reading the same books.
1. Hermione is constantly using charms to make her and her friends' 
life easier (making the snow melt, making Harry's glasses repel 
water, etc...).
2. She's not just *reading* those damn books, she's actually 
*applying* what she learns in them. And she's done that right from 
the beginning : in PS/SS, on the Hogwarts Express ride to school, 
she says she tried a few spells she found in the school books.
3. Everyone agrees that the spell she put on the Galleons she gives 
to the DA members is a very advanced spell, NEWT level. And what 
about the jinx she put on Marrietta ? It was so powerful that 
Marrietta had to keep it for days, because nobody could figure out 
how to cure her.
4. She's doing so well in Flitwick's and McGonagall's classes that 
Harry actually has fun comparing his and Ron's results with 
Hermione's. Remember the very first time this happened, the 
whole "Wingardium Leviosa" matter : she got it right the very first 
time.
5. She's Harry's *trainer* for the TWT ! They look up charms and 
jinxes in books, she learns them, and then she teaches them to Harry.

Robert :
> She certainly has advanced since the end of Book 1 where she 
> did not know what to do about the Devil's Snare until Harry told 
> her 

Del: 
You're mixing up 2 very different things : knowing how to do 
something, and thinking of doing it when needed. I know that I must 
not brake when driving on the ice, but I still do it. I lose my 
nerve and my head, and so does Hermione.

Robert :
> and she dismissed her own school work as "books!" 
> and "cleverness."  

Del :
She's trying to explain to Harry that what they need to learn from 
him is how to keep cool in the face of danger and how to react fast 
and accurately. And she's right to say that she can't learn that in 
books.
Moreover, I always had a problem with Hermione belonging to the DA. 
As far as I can remember, the *only* charm Harry knows and Hermione 
doesn't is the Patronus Charm. Everything else, she already knows, 
since she *taught* them to him !

Robert :
> (Incidentally, studies of valedictorians in the USA show that they 
> do not do any better after school either in business or socially 
> than others ? they just could "do school" well.)

Del :
That's precisely what Hermione is trying to learn from Harry : how 
to make good use of everything she knows (theoretical and practical)
in tense, stressful situations.

Robert :
> But that does not mean she is a genius.  And she did make two big 
> mistakes in OOTP : the hats she is knitting can't free the House 
> Elves and she left the DA list in the Room of Requirement for 
> Umbridge to find.  (I've discussed those in other posts.)

Del :
Concerning the hats, she's letting her emotions get the best of her 
reasoning. Nobody ever said that geniuses can't be blinded by their 
emotions. That would be the Vulcan view of geniuses, not the human 
one.
As for the DA list, I believe it wouldn't have changed anything even 
if she had taken it with her : Umbridge *needed* that list, so it 
showed up in the RoR, that's perfectly logical, and Hermione 
couldn't have done anything against that.

Robert :
> I think JKR said it best in an interview in Time magazine a couple 
> of years ago:  "Hermione is me, near enough.  A caricature of me 
> when I was younger.  I wasn't that clever.  But I was that 
> annoying on occasion.

Del :
Re-read the last 2 sentences. To me they clearly mean : "I wasn't as 
clever as Hermione, but I was as annoying." So unless I say JKR is 
dumb, I can't say Hermione isn't very intelligent.

Robert :
> Girls are very tolerant of her because she is not an 
> uncommon female type ? the little girl who feels plain and hugely 
> compensates by working very hard and wanting to get everything 
> just so."

Del :
Once again : working hard is not opposite to being a genius. In 
fact, being a genius who doesn't work won't get you far. But being a 
genius who works hard can turn you into a very powerful witch/wizard 
indeed.
By the way, do you think that Tom Riddle, who was a genius and a 
very powerful wizard, didn't work hard to become LV ? Wrong. He says 
so himself : he had to immerse himself in the study of the Dark Arts 
for years.

I do think that Hermione is very very intelligent (call that a 
genius if you want), and I applaud her for not taking the easy route 
(getting good enough marks just because she's smart), but rather 
apply those brains to study. They are at school after all, aren't 
they ?

Del




From submarimon15 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 07:16:00 2004
From: submarimon15 at yahoo.com (submarimon15)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 07:16:00 -0000
Subject: Ottery St-Catchpole and Wizard War II
In-Reply-To: <c4a79h+b2kq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4b6rg+fuaq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94491

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fiondavhar" 
<enigma_only at h...> wrote:

>  I am reluctant to theorize more without some sort of list 
reaction 
> to build on, but it seems to me that JKR has laid the map very 
well 
> for something big to happen in Ottery-St.Catchpole. 
> 
> Reactions, anyone?


Oooh wouldn't this be a nice opportunity to spend some time with 
Luna during the summer... 

Ok non-romantically now, I've just jumped on the Harry/Luna ship of 
late. Yes, I believe you're right. In GoF some of the Fawcett's are 
mentioned during the Yule Ball chapters. The fact that 3/4 of the 
families right now are anti-voldemort (Fawcetts yet to be known, 
Lovegood's nominally anti-voldie, but definately not pro-voldie) it 
would make a good target for a Death Eater strike. It's true that 
we've heard the name many times and still have only seen the Burrow. 
Until this post I didn't even remember that the 
Diggorys/Lovegoods/Fawcetts lived there as well. 

I personally would love to hear some theories on this one.

Mike 





From drednort at alphalink.com.au  Tue Mar 30 10:40:45 2004
From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 20:40:45 +1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Hermione Supposed to be a Genius?
In-Reply-To: <c4a5tu+trqv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4069DB4D.1137.8C0A80@localhost>

No: HPFGUIDX 94492

On 29 Mar 2004 at 21:54, Robert Jones wrote:

> Some of the replies to the question "Why does Ron have a crush on 
> Hermione?" expressed surprise that I even asked that question 
> because Hermione is so great.  (Of course, if that was all there was 
> to it, why doesn't Harry have a crush?  What's wrong with Harry?  Is 
> Harry superficial for being attracted only to the pretty Cho?  Why 
> is Harry oblivious to Hermione's charms, both magical and 
> nonmagical?)
> 
> They also make Hermione out to be a genius.  And I want to object to 
> that now.  Hermione is definitely the best student in school, but I 
> think it is just a matter of her "bookish" interests, not that she 
> is the greatest witch of her generation.  Maybe all the magic stuff 
> came naturally to James and Sirius, but Hermione studies all the 
> time and is always running off to the library whenever there is a 
> question.  But that does not mean she has a particularly great IQ or 
> magical IQ ? it is just how she handles things.

Hi Robert,

Let me preface this by explaining where I am coming from. I have 
worked as a volunteer mentor to 'profoundly gifted' children 
(broadly speaking IQ180+) and adolescents, for nearly a decade now. 
I've met quite a few of them - fact is, I was one, myself. I have 
written about exceptionally and profoundly gifted children and am 
published in the field, both under my own name and under a 
pseudonym. I do know a fair bit about these types of kids.

And I'm pretty sure Hermione is one of them. Yes, she studies hard 
- many of these kids don't, but some do - and that could explain a 
lot of what makes up Hermione - but there are two things that 
seriously do lead me to believe she probably has a very high IQ as 
well as that.

The first if less certain - but her memory for what she has read 
seems to be fairly close to photographic - her knowledge of a 
History of Hogwarts is the primary sign of this in my opinion - I 
don't think she particularly studied that book - I don't think she 
needed to. I think she read it through once and remembered most of 
it the first time. She's certainly boned up on it since - but she 
has a very good knowledge of it right almost from the time she 
starts at the school - if she was simply studious and concerned 
about her school work, I doubt she would have delved into that book 
so early. I think she remembers most of what she reads - not all 
but most.

Remember in Philosopher's Stone - when she finally remembers where 
she encountered the name Nicholas Flamel - she heads to her room 
and comes back with an 'enormous' book - which she borrowed from 
the library for a bit of light reading. Personally I think she 
reads in the way I've seen a lot of these kids read - delving into 
heavy tomes, reading them once, and remembering most of them.

But more significant to her intelligence - well, here's the thing - 
we actually have a reasonable facsimile of the type of question 
asked on many intelligence tests appearing in the text. It's only 
one question - but the way she solves it, really does suggest a 
very high IQ.

Again, it's in Philosopher's Stone - it's the Bottle Puzzle. This 
is a puzzle based on pure logic - not on learned information.

It's a fairly complex question - and Hermione is able to solve it - 
without any writing, so she's keeping the whole logical sequence in 
her head, as she manipulates it, and solves it - it appears in a 
couple of minutes, but we don't know that - and she doesn't just 
solve it - she is so *sure* of her solution, so confident she has 
got it, she has no hesitation her life and those of her friends on 
her answers. She is *positive* of her answers.

To solve that complexity of puzzle in minutes at the age of 11 or 
12, in your head, with that level of confidence in your answer - 
that is seriously unusual. Especially under stress. It's 
indicative, to me, that Hermione does have an exceptional IQ.

I obviously can't assess it precisely - but I wouldn't be surprised 
at something over the 150 level, with that type of performance.


Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia




From saitaina at frontiernet.net  Tue Mar 30 10:49:45 2004
From: saitaina at frontiernet.net (Saitaina)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 02:49:45 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pets
References: <c4bgf2+53sf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <01c001c41644$b78ee900$01fea8c0@domain.invalid>

No: HPFGUIDX 94493

Geoff wrote:

<Students may also bring an owl OR a cat OR a toad'"

(PS "Diagon Alley" pp. 52-53 UK edition)

Notice the use of the conditional tense... "may" - and it doesn't
include rabbits or tarantulas (Lee is out of order!)>

I rather belive that these are listed as ideas for new students.  They seem to be
rather common animal types for the young witches and wizards to have and that's
probably why they're listed.  You could probably bring any animal from home so long
as it's not a danger to other students.

These are also animals most commonly found around witches/Wizards through out
literature and perhaps JKR couldn't think of anything else while she was writing out
that bit but later thought of Scabbers and Lee's tarantula, but never bothered to
change it to include other animals.

Saitaina
****
Relying on the government to protect your privacy is like asking a peeping tom to
install your window blinds.-- John Perry Barlow

http://www.livejournal.com/users/saitaina

"No, one day I'm going to look back on all this and plow face-first into a tree
because I was looking the wrong bloody way. And I'll still be having a better day
than I am today."




From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Tue Mar 30 11:03:16 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 30 Mar 2004 13:03:16 +0200
Subject: Why DD might not want Snape for DADA job
Message-ID: <20040330110316.6CF4B1FCD22@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 94494

>Mo:
> I keep reading posts about Snape applying to the DADA
> job and why doesn't he get it.  (I apologise if this
> has been written before, but, as of yet, I haven't
> come across a post saying so.)

I still think he reason is very mundane: Snape is a former criminal, possibly a murderer. Would somebody sentenced for shooting people get a licence for shooting school? As much as Snape is knowledgeable about (DA)DA, Dumble will be chin deep in letters from protesting parents, once the word would leak (and it would, sooner or later, trust Rita&co). Than he'd probale have to sack Snape for good.

Cheers, Viridis
________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!



From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Tue Mar 30 11:31:19 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 30 Mar 2004 13:31:19 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Hermione Supposed to be a Genius?
Message-ID: <20040330113119.EBE2B1FCD34@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 94495

Robert Jones:
> Maybe all the magic stuff 
> came naturally to James and Sirius, but Hermione studies all the 
> time and is always running off to the library whenever there is a 
> question.  But that does not mean she has a particularly great IQ or 
> magical IQ ? it is just how she handles things.

The previous answrs handled it in detail, so let me just quote T.A.Eddison (acclaimed as a genius): "Genius is 5% of inspiration and 95% of perspiration".

> And it doesn't mean she is necessarily that great at "practical" 
> magic.  

Usually she is: for example Protean Charm in OotP, said to be NEWT level in her fifth year. She does make mistakes, she doesn't function well under stress, but she's pretty powerful, bot theoretically and practically.

And besides "genius" is just a label.
Cheers, Viridis
________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!



From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue Mar 30 11:56:38 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 11:56:38 -0000
Subject: Life-saving bonds
In-Reply-To: <c4b94d+bams@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4bn9m+9v5f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94496

-
> 
> Amanar:
> *sigh* I was convinced by Lupin's vampire essay, but as we all 
know, 
> JKR stomped the whole theory on the last webchat she gave on March 
> 4th. When somebody asked her whether there is a link between Snape 
> and vampires, she answered "erm... no."

Potioncat:
I'm not a Snape as vampire fan.  But I do wonder what all the bat 
images associated with him are about.  We can understand all the dog 
ones that come up with Sirius and the the wolf like ones with Remus.

The vampire essay had a purpose.  It may have been a red herring by 
JKR (that falls in the This is all Fiction theory) Or it may be that 
if you learned about vampires, you would learn something about 
Snape.  What makes it particularly vexing is that we can't use the 
books at Hogwarts.  Because I think everyone of us would be doing 
that essay!
Potioncat




From mkeller01 at alltel.net  Tue Mar 30 12:17:52 2004
From: mkeller01 at alltel.net (jksunflower2002)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 12:17:52 -0000
Subject: JKR's "small thing" in CoS
In-Reply-To: <Sea2-F11ghozGdyLSTV0003467d@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <c4bohg+hivf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94497

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathy King" <kking0731 at h...> 
wrote:
 
> February 2003
> 
> Interview with Steve Kloves and J.K. Rowling, Moderated by Lizo 
Mzimba
 
> Steve:
> I will sometimes ask Jo. I will say, you know, this detail, you 
just seem to 
> have cast just a bit more light on this in this scene than the 
other 
> details. Sometimes I'm wrong, but often she'll say "No, that is 
going to 
> play." There's one thing in Chamber, actually, that Jo indicated 
will play 
> later in the series. The hardest thing for me, honestly, is I'm 
writing a 
> story to which I do not know the end. Which is, I'm not going to 
lie to you, 
> has been the case sometimes in my own originals, JKR:
> I was gonna say!
> Steve:
> But I assume I will find an end. With this, it's just I'm writing 
a story 
> over a decade, and I keep waiting, you know, keep hoping that Jo 
will 
> slip-up and actually tell me something.
 
> This is the excerpt I think you may have been thinking of.
 
> Kathy


Also....
>From post # 82940:

"Key things happen in book two. No one knows how important those 
things are... yet. There's a lot in there. And I know how difficult 
it was to get it all in there without drawing too much attention to 
the clues."

http://filmforce.ign.com/harrypotter/articles/377/377244p1.html?
fromint=1


Toad (lurking behind the toilets)





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue Mar 30 12:19:17 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 12:19:17 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c4a10e+1faa@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4bok5+vkuo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94498

Carol wrote:
> 
> Meanwhile Lupin is thrown a curve. The boggart is not a DE but a
> professor, and he has no choice but to help Neville find a way to 
make
> his boggart ridiculous.  Anyway, I don't think that Snape *or* 
Lupin should be blamed here.
> IMO, they were both trying to help. And Neville did benefit by
> learning to vanquish a boggart, one of the first things he's done
> right in any lesson other than herbology.

Potioncat:
I snipped seveal good points in this post. But I wanted to get to 
this one.  Lupin was teaching about Boggarts.  As Carol says, the 
boggart has to be made rediculous.  A teacher in drag is pretty 
silly. Better as Gram perhaps (two pixies with one spell?) than say, 
Rosmerta or a Wierd Sister?  I agreed with an earlier post that this 
was pretty embarrassing for Snape.  But I can't come up with 
anything else and I reissue the challenge: Can anyone come up with 
anything that would work on a Snape boggart that wouldn't embarrass 
Snape?  

And while we're on professional behavior, does anyone think DD set 
Snape up with the vulture hat at Christmas?  Was he poking too, or 
trying to help?

Potioncat





From greatelderone at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 12:21:19 2004
From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 12:21:19 -0000
Subject: Pets
In-Reply-To: <c4a4pv+de7u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4bonv+7r02@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94499

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "steffy07" <steffy07 at a...> 
wrote:
> BUT...
> If you are going to go by that, then Scabbers is also not allowed.  
> He isn't an owl or cat or toad.  Why was he allowed?  Percy had him 
> before Ron, and we KNOW Percy would not have hidden a pet for 3 or 
4 
> years that was against the rules!

Perhaps the rule allowing only a cat, toad and owl was just newly 
instituted. Lee bringing his Spider might be an example of him 
overlooking it plus his rather lax view towards the school rules. 




From vmonte at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 12:39:15 2004
From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 12:39:15 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c4bok5+vkuo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4bppj+h63f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94500

Potioncat wrote:
Lupin was teaching about Boggarts.  As Carol says, the 
boggart has to be made rediculous.  A teacher in drag is pretty 
silly. Better as Gram perhaps (two pixies with one spell?) than say, 
Rosmerta or a Wierd Sister?  I agreed with an earlier post that this 
was pretty embarrassing for Snape.  But I can't come up with 
anything else and I reissue the challenge: Can anyone come up with 
anything that would work on a Snape boggart that wouldn't embarrass 
Snape?  
 
And while we're on professional behavior, does anyone think DD set 
Snape up with the vulture hat at Christmas?  Was he poking too, or 
trying to help?
 
vmonte responds:
I completely agree with your explanation of the Boggart scene.
I also think that DD was intentionaly teasing Snape at Christmas. 
That scene reminded me of Percy.  How Fred,George,and Ron often tease 
Percy for taking himself too seriously. 

vivian




From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net  Tue Mar 30 13:00:58 2004
From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 7:00:58 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
Message-ID: <20040330130059.VLNB6671.out003.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 94501

{Potioncat}

And while we're on professional behavior, does anyone think DD set 
Snape up with the vulture hat at Christmas?  Was he poking too, or 
trying to help?

vmonte responds:
I completely agree with your explanation of the Boggart scene.
I also think that DD was intentionaly teasing Snape at Christmas. 
That scene reminded me of Percy.  How Fred,George,and Ron often tease 
Percy for taking himself too seriously. 

{Silverthorne}

I would have to agree--given DD's penchant for 'gentle' teasing anyway (or gentle humor--remember him with the jelly beans when he was talking to Harry in the infirmary 'Alas! Ear Wax!'--he luaghed at himself then for Harry's benefit, and I think he did so again for Snape), something like teasing Snape by sticking him with that hat (and then willngly putting it on himself when Snape refused), seems to be in synch with how DD treats Snape, or any of his 'children', to be honest.

He never overtly 'corrects' Snape, but he spends a lot of time 'gently' reminding the man when Snape goes off in the 'wrong' way. This could easily be DD's way of silently telling Sev 'Oh come now, it *is* silly. See? Just look at how silly it is!' (MeEanwhile proudly wearing the vulture hat himself...). It's actaully something my dad used to do to me, once my care had been legally handed over to him from mom.

It worked for me at least, when I was still learning the difference about living with a healthy family like my dads, and the abusive one I had left behind with mom...it certain got better results and reactions from me than trying to 'make me see' that I had screwed up (or really should not be angry about something).

and considering that Snape (like I was back then), tends to have a very negative reaction to people who 'force' him to 'see' things, DD might have found this was the best way to get Snape off of one his of his rampages--slowly, quietly, and with humor...

Anne


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Mar 30 13:05:23 2004
From: severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk (severelysigune)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 13:05:23 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c4bok5+vkuo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4braj+419p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94502

Potioncat wrote:
<snip>
<< And while we're on professional behavior, does anyone think DD set 
Snape up with the vulture hat at Christmas?  Was he poking too, or  
trying to help?>>

Sigune here:
He /definitely/ set Snape up. It is just another instance of 
Dumbledore's particular brand of humour, and Snape is the ideal butt. 
Ah, that magical combination of Dumbledore and Snape...

Yours severely,

Sigune
~ who couldn't post on her favourite subject a while because she was 
abroad, but did do some Snape drawings on paper bags in her hotel 
room as an ersatz...




From stevejjen at earthlink.net  Tue Mar 30 13:12:31 2004
From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 13:12:31 -0000
Subject: JKR's "small thing" in CoS
In-Reply-To: <c4bohg+hivf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4brnv+lp21@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94503

Toad:
> Also....
> From post # 82940:
> 
> "Key things happen in book two. No one knows how important those 
> things are... yet. There's a lot in there. And I know how 
difficult 
> it was to get it all in there without drawing too much attention 
to 
> the clues."
> 
> http://filmforce.ign.com/harrypotter/articles/377/377244p1.html?
> fromint=1


Jen: Thanks, Kathy & Toad! 

I ran across an interview last night where JKR says she threw out  
many chapters of PS/SS because they 'gave too much away'. Maybe that 
interview combined with the one Toad quoted AND the Kloves/JKR 
interview were all rolled together to get the rumor JKR said 
she 'nearly gave it all away' in COS.

Or maybe not....just trying to solve this mystery once and for 
all :).




From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net  Tue Mar 30 13:17:50 2004
From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 7:17:50 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Hermione Supposed to be a Genius?
Message-ID: <20040330131750.WIJU5247.out014.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 94504

{Viridis}

The previous answrs handled it in detail, so let me just quote T.A.Eddison (acclaimed as a genius): "Genius is 5% of inspiration and 95% of perspiration".
<Snip>
She does make mistakes, she doesn't function well under stress, but she's pretty powerful, bot theoretically and practically.


{Silverthorne}

**Coming in at an IQ of 180 and a weight of 210lbs (really), and a ten-dollar an hour job tossing boxes, Anne comments**

To add to Viridis's comment via Eddison:

Just because you have a high IQ, does not necassarily mean that you have a little something called 'common sense* (Although Hermione certianly has that in spades as well). Or, perhaps I should say, they don't always have the ability to *practically* apply that intelligence to every day living.

Many 'genius's' were quite capable of coming up with things like Relativity, inventions and theories no one even had a basis for at the time (telephones, electricity, the shape of the earth, microscopic entities that make you sick), incredible music scores, and so forth.

By the same token, some of them couldn't remember what they were doing three minutes ago, had problems making thier way from point a) to point b), lacked any organizational skill whatsoever, or simply could not function in a normal society (at least not without getting labeled, at best, as 'eccentric'). 

And then there are the ones who *really* go over the deep end and become the genius 'monsters' (ask my lifemate about this one--she does a lot of study on Cold Case files, serial killers, so on and so forth--it's rather frightening to see how many of these criminals are *highly* intelligent--often topping the 190 range...O.O).

Anyway, point is, high IQ does not immediately equal sucess and/or the ability to live sucessfully in an everyday scenario. Hermione manages both, which is where you can rightfully call her 'smart' *and* 'intelligent'. She still needs a little work on the 'think and don't panic' scenarios (as in with the Devil's Snare), but I think thats more a matter of training than intelligence. Given time, once she cna get her emotional responces under control during stress, she'll be able to handle those situations very well indeed...

(Hopes that makes sense in the context of this discussion...really need to go have my first cup of coffee...)

Anne




From meriaugust at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 13:24:21 2004
From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 13:24:21 -0000
Subject: PS/SS question
In-Reply-To: <c4b9ln+d5pl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4bse5+op8k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94505

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amanar" <naama2486 at y...> 
wrote:
> I've been re-reading book 1 and was wondering - when Harry meets 
> Quirrel in the last chamber ("The Man with Two Faces" chapter)
> Quirrel tells Harry that Snape suspected him from the very 
beggining 
> and that he was already onto him when Harry eavesdropped on them 
in 
> the forest (haven't got the book with me so can't give an exact 
> quote).
> 
> What exactly was Snape suspecting Quirrel for? Did he know that 
> Quirrel was after the Stone, or did he suspect Quirrel wanted the 
> Stone to aid Lord Voldemort?
> 
> --Amanar.
> 
> 
> <<And then a giant cookie came running down the hill!>>

Meri here: 
I always thought Snape just suspected of Quirrel wanting to steal 
the stone, and didn't even know about LV's residence in the back of 
Quirrel's skull. However, a thought just occured to me. In GoF 
Snape's Dark Mark starts showing up again, even before LV's 
ressurection, because LV is getting stronger. Maybe the Dark Mark 
started burning stronger during SS (though, of course, we and Harry 
wouldn't even know what that is so we wouldn't have noticed any 
references thrown in by JKR even if she had put them in there). And 
then the prescence of said Dark Mark led Snape to suspect LV. So 
maybe it was a little of both. 
Meri - who is v. surprised that her brain can work like this so 
early in the a.m. 




From severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Mar 30 13:39:50 2004
From: severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk (severelysigune)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 13:39:50 -0000
Subject: Snuffing Out Snape (Re: Snape, the "Deeply Horrible Person")
In-Reply-To: <c4bd9p+6tff@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4btb6+ahqn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94506

Jen Reese wrote:
<<For Snape to be redeemed in the end, he needs to be dead. I can't 
even tell you why I feel this way. I don't hate the character-- he's 
an interesting read, and has played an important role in Harry's life 
and magical development, if not a particularly *pleasant* role.

Does anyone else feel this way and if so, please explain it to me?!? 
So, no, I don't want to see a kinder, gentler Snape (yuck--can you 
imagine?). I do think it's important he play a pivotal role in 
assisting Harry one more time with LV, then he meets his maker.>>

Kneasy replied:
<<Well, it  all depends on how you  see Snape and how you think the
story will go, plus personal attitudes to mayhem and violence as a 
plot resolution device. Those who hope or expect that decency,  
moderation, forgiveness or sweetness  and light to prevail will have 
one view; I take the other. (Surprise, surprise.)>>

Sigune now:
Why, I must disagree with your reasoning there, Kneasy. I don't think 
that any hopes of Snape's survival automatically imply a belief in or 
hope for "decency, moderation, forgiveness", let alone "sweetness and 
light" - I know I for one don't go in for that kind of mellow, fluffy 
stuff; but I do feel Snape should survive the whole mess. He has done 
so before; why shouldn't he get away with it now?

Snape surviving the Second War also doesn't mean he is suddenly going 
to be all nice and kind and sweet - that would indeed be a rather 
undesirable effect, to the extent that for the story's sake I'd 
rather see Voldy win than Severus turn amiable :).

Kneasy wrote: 
<<Look at the way Snape has been presented over 5 books -  he's  
almost been written into a cul-de-sac. Unlikeable person, doing a 
dangerous job for the Order, a deserter from Voldy - not a naturally 
forgiving employer,  the personal enemy of the putative hero and not 
giving a damn about it, a loner. Nah, he's been handed the Black Spot 
all right.>>

Sigune again:
Well - I guess this is just my view of Snape, but I'd say his being 
in a cul-de-sac sounds to me like the greatest guarantee he'll 
survive. He's something of an escape artist, that one. He doesn't 
seem the kind of man who'd start on a dangerous game if he didn't 
know he had considerable chances of winning it in one way or another. 
Slytherin caution paired off with Slytherin cunning.

Kneasy:
<snip observation about his being a loner - I totally agree>
<<There is a small band of posters, possibly steeped in the tradition 
of Restoration tragedy (where usually *everybody* ends up dead) who  
recognise the Snape character. And he's motivated by  revenge. You're 
probably sick and tired of reading Kneasy, together with the likes of
melclaros banging on about the same old thing, but that's because no 
other outcome would tie up so many loose ends and remain credible. To 
have an end where sunshine floods sweeping meadows, bluebirds twitter 
on high and Snape becomes a bluff, kindly old duffer might suit 
Disney (spit), but it would hardly be true to the tale.>>

Sigune yet again:
Oh come on! I won't be accused of Disneyism for feeling he should 
survive! I'm positively allergic to sunshine (literally and 
figuratively). For one thing, I love recognisable types from 
Restoration tragedy, or any other tradition, to turn out just that 
bit different. My favourite books and films are those that undermine 
such types. Look at Oscar Wilde's plays: audiences used to recognise 
types, like for example Mrs Erlynne in Lady Windermere's Fan. She is 
based on the Woman with a Past, the kind of character supposed to die 
at the end of the play. But does she die? Certainly not - she goes 
off to the Continent with a newly acquired wealthy husband, and that 
is why she is an original character. She also has the wittiest lines. 
Now this kind of things make Wilde's plays different from his 
contemporaries, and better.
So yes, Snape is a recognisable type: let's have our expectations 
undermined then. Let him live, scarred and misanthropic and acid and 
at war with the rest of mankind, but don't let him walk the path that 
seems so obvious - that towards death and redemption through death.

Kneasy:
<snip>
<<He'll die. I only hope that when he does, it's close enough to the 
end for him to recognise that he's a winner, that he is revenged. He 
might not be 'nice', but I think he deserves that.>>
<snip>

Sigune (for the last time):
He deserves even more. For my part he should be allowed some gloating 
over those he's fooled, too, whoever they may turn out to be. 
No really. If he dies, I'll feel horribly cheated. Let him live 
nastily ever after for a change.

Yours severely,

Sigune




From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 14:20:50 2004
From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (drjuliehoward)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 14:20:50 -0000
Subject: Is Neville getting better at Potions?
In-Reply-To: <c4am78+3r19@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4bvo2+79b5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94507

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jmgarciaiii" 
<jmgarciaiii at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> 
> wrote:
> > All of this talk about how Snape's teaching methos work   with 
> > Neville made me notice something. In OOP, Neville doesn't 
> > seem to have nearly as much trouble in potions class as usual. 
> > He doesn't blow up any cauldrons, IIRC, and there is at least 
one 
> > session where no mention is made of any Neville problems at 
> > all.
> 
> There may be something to this. In fact, I think this culminates 
> during the Potions OWL (Ch. 31, OotP) it says:
> 
> <<The afternoon practical was not as dreadful as he had expected 
it 
> to be. With Snape absent from the proceedings, he found that he 
was 
> much more relaxed than he usually was while making potions. 
Neville, 
> who was sitting very near Harry, also looked happier than Harry 
had 
> ever seen him during a Potions class.>>
> 
> -Joe in SoFla

Then this would suggest that Neville's performance deteriorates due 
to anxiety.  As for the trouble remember verbal instructions, 
passwords, etc., Neville may have difficulties with receptive 
language and verbal memory, both of which may be affected by a 
memory charm.

Julie




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Mar 30 15:00:41 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 15:00:41 -0000
Subject: JKR didn't say "No: was re: Life-saving bonds
In-Reply-To: <c4b94d+bams@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4c22p+5rk2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94508

> > > >Amanar (why can't Snape be a vamp? WHY? Oh cruel 
world!)
> > > 
> > > *Kimberly's comment*
> > > I'm not arguing the point that Snape is or isn't a 
> > vampire...however, while re-reading GoF this week, this 
quote 

> Amanar: *sigh* I was convinced by Lupin's vampire essay, but 
as we all know, JKR stomped the whole theory on the last 
webchat she gave on March  4th. When somebody asked her 
whether there is a link between Snape  and vampires, she 
answered "erm... no."

But she didn't say that! She said, "Erm...I don't think so." And 
since she knows all about Snape, that's   evasive,IMO. An 
interviewer wouldn't have let her get away with it, but fortunately 
for her, there's no possibility for follow-up questions in a chat.

http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/JKRWorldBookDay2004.html

It's  like, "Mum, does this receipt from the bicycle shop I 
found in the bin have anything to do with  Bobby's Christmas 
present?" At which point Mum realizes that little Bobby is 
listening hard,  and says:

"Erm...I don't think so." Meaning, 'Well-spotted, but don't let's 
spoil the surprise.' <g>

Pippin




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Tue Mar 30 15:05:44 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 15:05:44 -0000
Subject: JKR's "small thing" in CoS
In-Reply-To: <c4brnv+lp21@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4c2c8+737c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94509

Toad:
> > Also....
> > From post # 82940:
> > 
> > "Key things happen in book two. No one knows how important those 
> > things are... yet. There's a lot in there. And I know how 
> > difficult it was to get it all in there without drawing too much 
> > attention to  the clues."
> > 
> > http://filmforce.ign.com/harrypotter/articles/377/377244p1.html?
> > fromint=1
 
Jen R.: Thanks, Kathy & Toad! 
> I ran across an interview last night where JKR says she threw out  
> many chapters of PS/SS because they 'gave too much away'. Maybe 
> that interview combined with the one Toad quoted AND the Kloves/JKR 
> interview were all rolled together to get the rumor JKR said 
> she 'nearly gave it all away' in COS.

Siriusly Snapey Susan:
YES, Toad!!  Thank you for sharing this.  Kathy, I had previously 
just about decided that the one you cited was as close as I was going 
to get to what I remembered, but the one Toad has cited is more 
specific to what I remembered.  You're right, though, Jen R., that 
the phrase "nearly gave it all away" hasn't surfaced.  Thanks, all!

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue Mar 30 15:06:24 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 15:06:24 -0000
Subject: Snuffing Out Snape (Re: Snape, the "Deeply Horrible Person")
In-Reply-To: <c4btb6+ahqn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4c2dg+nqbd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94510

> 
> 

Kneasy:
 Nah, he's been handed the Black Spot all right.>>

Potioncat: I hope not, but I couldn't cut a line like that!  Billy 
Bones, is he? (Related to Amelia?)
> 
> Sigune (for the last time):
> He deserves even more. For my part he should be allowed some 
gloating 
> over those he's fooled, too, whoever they may turn out to be. 
> No really. If he dies, I'll feel horribly cheated. Let him live 
> nastily ever after for a change.
> 


Potioncat:
Welcome back, Signue.
I had to cut some really good posts.  Everyone, scroll back and read 
them.
I want Snape to make some drastic, brave action which allows Harry 
to defeat LV and we spend countless pages thinking he died/hoping he 
survived And at the end he says something like, "Given a choice, we 
save our necks...." But I don't expect him to be any nicer than he 
has been.
Potioncat




From JessaDrow at aol.com  Tue Mar 30 15:12:09 2004
From: JessaDrow at aol.com (JessaDrow at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 10:12:09 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR didn't say "No: was re: Life-saving bonds
Message-ID: <cd.8c2882d.2d9ae849@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94511

In a message dated 3/30/2004 10:06:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
foxmoth at qnet.com writes:
It's  like, "Mum, does this receipt from the bicycle shop I 
found in the bin have anything to do with  Bobby's Christmas 
present?" At which point Mum realizes that little Bobby is 
listening hard,  and says:

"Erm...I don't think so." Meaning, 'Well-spotted, but don't let's 
spoil the surprise.' <g>

"Erm...I don't think so." Could have meant.. "Erm.. (Where on earth do they 
come up with these things?) I don't think so."

Jessa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue Mar 30 15:19:34 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 15:19:34 -0000
Subject: Why DD might not want Snape for DADA job
In-Reply-To: <20040330110316.6CF4B1FCD22@front.interia.pl>
Message-ID: <c4c366+41ua@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94512

Viridis wrote:
> 
> I still think he reason is very mundane: Snape is a former 
criminal, possibly a murderer. Would somebody sentenced for shooting 
people get a licence for shooting school? As much as Snape is 
knowledgeable about (DA)DA, Dumble will be chin deep in letters from 
protesting parents, once the word would leak (and it would, sooner 
or later, trust Rita&co). Than he'd probale have to sack Snape for 
good.
> 

Potioncat:  Well, if someone committed murder with a gun, I wouldn't 
want them teaching poisons either.  I still think he certainly makes 
potions sound like Dark Arts in that first speech of his!

OK which side was I arguing?
Potioncat 




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue Mar 30 15:27:14 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 15:27:14 -0000
Subject: JKR's "small thing" in CoS
In-Reply-To: <c4brnv+lp21@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4c3ki+r12r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94513

> Toad:
> > Also....
> > From post # 82940:
> > 
> > "Key things happen in book two. No one knows how important those 
> > things are... yet. There's a lot in there. And I know how 
> difficult 
> > it was to get it all in there without drawing too much attention 
> to 
> > the clues."
> > 
> > http://filmforce.ign.com/harrypotter/articles/377/377244p1.html?
> > fromint=1
> 
> 
> Jen: Thanks, Kathy & Toad! 
> 
> I ran across an interview last night where JKR says she threw out  
> many chapters of PS/SS because they 'gave too much away'. Maybe 
that 
> interview combined with the one Toad quoted AND the Kloves/JKR 
> interview were all rolled together to get the rumor JKR said 
> she 'nearly gave it all away' in COS.
> 
> Or maybe not....just trying to solve this mystery once and for 
> all :).


Potioncat:
So, combining all that, there may have been events/characters that 
Kloves would have cut/changed in CoS that he needed to leave in. 
Some of which may already have played out in the following books.  
So, how many of us have CoS book on lap and CoS movie running right 
now?

Potioncat (currently re-re-re-reading OoP and can't go to CoS)




From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 30 15:26:27 2004
From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 15:26:27 -0000
Subject: FILKS: The Two Final "Forum" Songs
Message-ID: <c4c3j3+evv6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94514

Here are the final two songs from my CoS musical, A Funny Thing 
Happened on the Way to the Chamber. The complete music (with added 
narrative and dialogue) will go on line with the next update 
(tentatively, April 11)

I'm Myrtle (CoS, Chap. 9)

To the tune of I'm Lovely (reprise), from Sondheim's A Funny Thing 
Happened on the Way to the Forum 

Text and a brief excerpt here

http://users.bestweb.net/~foosie/forum.htm

THE SCENE: Girls restroom, first floor. The TRIO find a secluded spot 
to brew their Polyjuice, but one not totally uninhabited

HERMIONE (to RON & HARRY)
Come in here! Come on in!

RON
You didn't tell us we'd have to go to the girls' room

HERMIONE
A dead girl's room. Moaning Myrtle haunts one of the toilets. I never 
go here if I can avoid it; it's awful trying to have a pee with her 
wailing at you.

MYRTLE
I still can't believe I'm a ghost. Look at me. Just look at me.

TRIO
We can't take our eyes off you
..

HERMIONE
(music) You're Myrtle
Absolutely Myrtle
Who'd believe the martyrdom of you?
Reject
Olive Hornby caused it, 
Now the water closet
You're doomed to

Our
Privy bleak and bare
Filch and all his maintenance staff
Refuse to make repairs 
`Cause of Myrtle,
Miserable ol'  Myrtle,
She's the world's most pity-potty dame!

(spoken) Now you just float there, close your eyes and think dead 
thoughts. 

MYRTLE (music)
I'm Myrtle,
Absolutely Myrtle,
Who'd believe the martyrdom of me?
Reject,
Olive Hornby caused it, 
In the water closet
Hauntingly



HARRY (spoken)
Ask her if she saw anything

HERMIONE
Did you see anything?

MYRTLE
No - I was too busy trying to kill myself
.then I remembered
.

HERMIONE
What?

MYRTLE (wailing)
I'm already dead!

(music) I'm so Myrtle,

RON
Frighteningly Myrtle -

HERMIONE & MYRTLE
As this girls' room wins undying fame -

RON & HARRY
You're so Myrtle -

HERMIONE & MYRTLE
For the world's most pity-potty dame ?

Comity Tonight (CoS, Chap. 18)

To the tune of Comedy Tonight ? Reprise

THE SCENE: McGonagall's office. Comity reigns as the malefactors are 
exposed and the wrongs are all righted ? until the next book

HARRY
Chamber exposure

DUMBLEDORE
Malfoy foreclosure
Someone's learned everything -

HAGRID
In comity tonight!

ARTHUR & MOLLY
We get our daughter
Back thanks to Potter

McGONAGALL
Someone's learned everything -

LOCKHART
A memorable night!

RON
You found the sword

GINNY
You scotched the snake

(Enter HERMIONE, restored to biological status, and PROF. SPROUT)

SPROUT
You get your Herm back

HERMIONE 
Thanks to mandrakes!

LUCIUS (grumbling, preparing to take his leave)
I get the old hook

HARRY (handing Lucius the Diary, wrapped in an old sock)
Here, take this old book

DOBBY
I get the thing I want to be:
FREE!

ALL (except MALFOY)
Free! Free! Free! Free! Free!

(LUCIUS raises his wand against HARRY, only to be struck down by 
DOBBY)

DOBBY
Nothing doing!
Put your wand down!
Or I will zap you deep underground!

ALL (to HARRY)
Who is our hero?
Here is our hero
In the quarrel `twixt wrong & right:

DUMBLEDORE
More war tomorrow!

ALL
Comity, Comity, Comity,
Comity, Comity, Comity,
Comity, Comity,
Comity Tonight! 

   -	CMC

HARRY POTTER FILKS 
http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm





From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Tue Mar 30 15:29:51 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 15:29:51 -0000
Subject: JKR didn't say "No: was re: Life-saving bonds
In-Reply-To: <cd.8c2882d.2d9ae849@aol.com>
Message-ID: <c4c3pf+mlaq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94515

Pippin:
> It's  like, "Mum, does this receipt from the bicycle shop I 
> found in the bin have anything to do with  Bobby's Christmas 
> present?" At which point Mum realizes that little Bobby is 
> listening hard,  and says:
> 
> "Erm...I don't think so." Meaning, 'Well-spotted, but don't let's 
> spoil the surprise.' <g>

Jessa: 
> "Erm...I don't think so." Could have meant.. "Erm.. (Where on earth 
> do they come up with these things?) I don't think so."

Susan says:
And isn't that the *beauty* of it??  How does JKR *think* so fast?  I 
mean, how does she manage to phrase these things on the fly in a way 
which keeps adding fuel to *both* camp's fires?  :-)

Siriusly Snapey Susan...who agrees w/ Shaun about Hermione's genius, 
and also thinks JKR must be one!





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Mar 30 15:30:30 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 15:30:30 -0000
Subject: Snuffing Out Snape (Re: Snape, the "Deeply Horrible Person")
In-Reply-To: <c4a7du+88dr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4c3qm+pifb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94516

Jen: For Snape to be redeemed in the end, he needs to be dead. 
I  can't even tell you why I feel this way. I don't hate the
character--
 he's an interesting read, and has played an important role in 
 Harry's life and magical development, if not a particularly 
 *pleasant* role.
> 
> Does anyone else feel this way and if so, please explain it to 
>me?!?

. It's a pretty standard feature of  Western lit. Your sins, however 
dire, are forgiven if, and only if, you die in a state of repentance. 
But as we all know, the penitent have this tendency to backslide, 
so authors tend to kill them immediately (Boromir) or carry the 
epilogue to the rest of their days (Lancelot, Scrooge). It gives the 
reader closure.

Pippin




From navarro198 at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 30 15:34:20 2004
From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 15:34:20 -0000
Subject: Is Neville getting better at Potions?
In-Reply-To: <c4bvo2+79b5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4c41s+a018@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94517

Pippin:
I am wondering if Neville simply does better with the instructions 
all written on the board OWL style, instead of having to keep track 
of Snape's oral instructions.
*snip*
In Herbology and CoMC where everything is done by demonstration, and 
in History of Magic and Divination where there is written 
instruction as well as verbal, Neville seems to do all right.

Janet:
This would seem to support the widespread theory that Neville's 
memory has been damaged somehow (intentionally or otherwise).  He'd 
have trouble remembering verbal instructions once they were over, 
but if all he had to do was look at written instructions when he 
needed to, he'd have far less trouble.

Joe in SoFla:
There may be something to this. In fact, I think this culminates 
during the Potions OWL (Ch. 31, OotP) it says:

<<The afternoon practical was not as dreadful as he had expected it 
to be. With Snape absent from the proceedings, he found that he was 
much more relaxed than he usually was while making potions. Neville, 
who was sitting very near Harry, also looked happier than Harry had 
ever seen him during a Potions class.>>

Julie:
Then this would suggest that Neville's performance deteriorates due 
to anxiety. As for the trouble remember verbal instructions, 
passwords, etc., Neville may have difficulties with receptive 
language and verbal memory, both of which may be affected by a 
memory charm.

Bookworm:
I think Neville's problems may be a combination of fear/anxiety in 
Snape's class and his learning style. I'm reasonably intelligent [no 
comments, please ;-)] and am a visual/kinesthetic person. I have 
trouble remembering things that aren't written down. (Can I blame 
the "senior moments" on a memory charm?) If I were in Snape's class 
as a teenager, I probably would have done poorly, too. 

Neville's best subject is Herbology ? a hands-on kind of subject. 
It's interesting that of all the students mentioned during the 
O.W.L. chapter, the only time Neville is mentioned is during the 
Potions exam. Was that a hint? I wonder what surprises JKR has for 
us when the test results come out.

Ravenclaw Bookworm





From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 15:52:39 2004
From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 15:52:39 -0000
Subject: Life-saving bonds
In-Reply-To: <c4b94d+bams@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4c547+c8tg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94518

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amanar" <naama2486 at y...> 
wrote:
> *sigh* I was convinced by Lupin's vampire essay, but as we all 
know, 
> JKR stomped the whole theory on the last webchat she gave on March 
> 4th. When somebody asked her whether there is a link between Snape 
> and vampires, she answered "erm... no."

Here's the actual quote...

<<Megan: Is there a link between Snape and vampires? 
JK Rowling: Erm...I don't think so.>>

1- That wasn't exactly an unambiguous denial.
2- The question was NOT "Is Snape a vampire?" and JKR has plausible 
deniability to say, should Snape prove to be a vampire, "He's a 
solitary vampire, he's not linked to any other vampires at all." 

I think JKR's favorite thing, her secret thrill is to say things 
that leave her plenty of wiggle room when she "whipsaws" us.

-J. 




From rredordead at aol.com  Tue Mar 30 15:55:49 2004
From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 15:55:49 -0000
Subject: Why DD might not want Snape for DADA job
In-Reply-To: <c4c366+41ua@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4c5a5+hboe@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94519

> Viridis wrote:
> > I still think he reason is very mundane: Snape is a former 
> criminal, possibly a murderer. Would somebody sentenced for 
shooting people get a licence for shooting school? As much as Snape 
is knowledgeable about (DA)DA, Dumble will be chin deep in letters 
from protesting parents, once the word would leak (and it would, 
sooner or later, trust Rita&co). Than he'd probale have to sack Snape 
for good.
 
> Potioncat wrote:
>Well, if someone committed murder with a gun, I wouldn't 
> want them teaching poisons either.  I still think he certainly 
makes potions sound like Dark Arts in that first speech of his!


Mandy here:
Viridis, I believe you raise a very good point and it really is that 
simple.  

Snape was involved with LV during the first war.  He may have been 
exonerated of all charges, but the accusation was still made.  If DD 
was to put Snape in the position of DADA teacher, it would only be a 
matter of time before the rumors started flying among the parents 
about Snape's possible past.  And no one is going to want a man who 
was accused of being involved with the Dark side of the war teaching 
their children about Defense of the said Dart Arts.  It would be like 
hiring an accused member of the IRA (innocent or not) to teach 
Defense of Terrorism in a English school.  The government might do it 
but not a school.  Despite Snape's supposed innocence there are 
people out there know for certain that Snape was a Death Eater.  
Malfoy and Karkaroff, and mostly likely all the other DE's as well. 
Anyone of these men could quietly let is 'slip' about Snape's 
involvement.  If there was any doubt cast about Severus Snape and LV, 
DD would have no choice but to remove him from the school.  That is 
something DD cannot risk, he needs Snape at Hogwarts with himself and 
Harry.  Snape is too important to DD for him to risk loosing him.

You might ask why has this not happened already?  I believe LV also 
wants to keep Snape at Hogwarts as much as DD.  It's a goldmine of 
information about Harry and DD.  But if Snape is given the DADA 
position and parents start shouting for his removal neither DD or LV 
could do anything to keep him there.  It's best for DD (and LV) to 
keep Snape in a relatively low-key position, doing the same job he 
has done for the past 15 years or so, and not rock the boat.

Cheers, Mandy





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue Mar 30 15:59:51 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 15:59:51 -0000
Subject: Is Neville getting better at Potions?
In-Reply-To: <c4c41s+a018@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4c5hn+tk65@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94520

 
> Joe in SoFla:
> There may be something to this. In fact, I think this culminates 
> during the Potions OWL (Ch. 31, OotP) it says:
> 
> <<The afternoon practical was not as dreadful as he had expected 
it 
> to be. With Snape absent from the proceedings, he found that he 
was 
> much more relaxed than he usually was while making potions. 
Neville, 
> who was sitting very near Harry, also looked happier than Harry 
had 
> ever seen him during a Potions class.>>
 
 
> Bookworm:
> Neville's best subject is Herbology ? a hands-on kind of
subject. 
> It's interesting that of all the students mentioned during the 
> O.W.L. chapter, the only time Neville is mentioned is during the 
> Potions exam. Was that a hint? I wonder what surprises JKR has for 
> us when the test results come out.
> 


Potioncat:
Surprises on top of surprises, no doubt.  

OoP "Career Advice" p656, Ron announces he doesn't want to be a 
Healer, and lists everything you have to have E level NEWTS in: 
Potions, Transfigurations, Herbology, Charms and DADA.  Why do you 
suppose JKR told us that? Neville springs to mind as someone who 
might want to be a Healer. To be honest, I'd never thought of him 
being in Potions after 5th.

Also, same chapter p663  McGonagall is speaking: "...Yes, Potter, 
Potions," she added, with the merest flicker of a smile.

I always wondered if she was smiling at the look on his face, or 
some inside joke she might share with Snape, or at the anticipated 
look on Snape's face.  Now I wonder if 15 minutes before Potter 
she'd said "Yes, Longbottom, Potions."

Potioncat who is beginning to think 6th year Potions might be very 
interesting.




From DBoyken at aol.com  Tue Mar 30 16:18:54 2004
From: DBoyken at aol.com (Deb)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 16:18:54 -0000
Subject: Why DD might not want Snape for DADA job
In-Reply-To: <c4c366+41ua@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4c6le+2hl2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94521

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at m...> 
wrote:
> Viridis wrote:
> > 
> > I still think he reason is very mundane: Snape is a former 
> criminal, possibly a murderer. Dumble will be chin deep in letters 
from > protesting parents, once the word would leak 


------------Um, but he's ALREADY a professor. I don't see why parents 
would object any more strongly to a criminal teaching their children 
DADA rather than potions. Either way, there's still a former criminal 
teaching the kids! Maybe it's something as simple as that Snape's 
strengths lie in potions, regardless of whether he'd rather they were 
in DADA. 

Deb in NJ





From annemehr at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 16:23:57 2004
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 16:23:57 -0000
Subject: JKR excerps from a magazine
In-Reply-To: <c4bcvh+pdss@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4c6ut+pepo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94522

Kathy King:
> > I know that a lot of people enjoy, along with myself, interviews 
> from Jkr. I 
> > recently bought a magazine, which is a collector's edition 
> of "Movie Magic".
<snip> 
> > What I had found interesting was that twice in the first paragraph 
> she 
> > repeats that Harry is guided by his conscience. Isn't that the 
> little voice 
> > inside your head, so to speak?

> Catherine McK: 
> But isn't the little voice inside Harry's head Lord Voldemort....?

Annemehr:
Count me in as one of the (few?) who thinks the voices in Harry's head
are *Harry's*.  There are a few important exceptions, of course: the
voice of someone trying to Imperio him, the voices he hears when near
a dementor, and the voices of the people involved in those
dream-visions he has through his scar while asleep.  These exceptions
are clearly stated in the books, as far as I can see.  I'm so sure of
this that I'll buy a round of butterbeers for the list if I turn out
to be wrong!  ;-)  That ought to make up for this being a boring
non-theory...

Catherine McK: 
> I suppose that JKR is saying that Harry, with little guidance from 
> the more experienced, can only do what he thinks is right ? Ron and 
> Hermione help with the practicalities. Perhaps the message of the 
> books is that Harry has to learn not to be guided by his conscience, 
> but to accept the considered advice of people he can trust (like 
> Hermione), both to share the burden and to have a higher chance of 
> making the right choice. 
> 
> Catherine McK

Annemehr:
How about if he's always guided by his conscience, but he informs his
decisions by learning to listen to the people he trusts rather than
always going by his first gut instinct all the time?  Because what I
think JKR meant was that, without benefit of caring adults to teach
him right from wrong, Harry has managed to become quite good just by
listening to his own conscience (making a few mistakes along the way
to be sure).

Annemehr




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue Mar 30 16:28:14 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 16:28:14 -0000
Subject: Why DD might not want Snape for DADA job
In-Reply-To: <c4c6le+2hl2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4c76u+7kkp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94523


> > Viridis wrote:
> > > 
> > > I still think he reason is very mundane: Snape is a former 
> > criminal, possibly a murderer. 

Deb wrote: 
> ------------Um, but he's ALREADY a professor. I don't see why 
parents 
> would object any more strongly to a criminal teaching their 
children DADA rather than potions. 

Potioncat:  Not only that, he's known to prowl around the dark halls 
at night and he appears to be in charge of school security.  What 
could DD be thinking!

(BTW, if he was cleared in whatever hearing DD referred to, then he 
isn't a former criminal.)




From pt4ever at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 16:31:03 2004
From: pt4ever at yahoo.com (JoAnna)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 16:31:03 -0000
Subject: Hermione flinching at LV's name
In-Reply-To: <1c9.1715d390.2d9a1d41@aol.com>
Message-ID: <c4c7c7+ldn6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94524

Tiffany said:

<<<My only problem with that concept of trying them out herself 
wouldn't there be a problem with MoM. I means students aren't 
suppose to do magic outside of school, are they? Or did I miss 
something? I know accidental magic isn't a big deal but that would 
be a real deal though. Can someone clarify?>>>

I think that the MoM doesn't monitor underage magic for students who 
are not yet Hogwarts students, since that magic is wandless.  
Remember, in PoA Fudge talks about how Harry blowing up Aunt Marge 
was an accident and has been taken care of, but he doesn't mention 
Harry's little act of wandless magic in Magnolia Crescent 
(saying "Lumos" only to have his want tip ignite from several feet 
away).  I don't think the Ministry detected that bit of magic, and I 
don't think they detect other children's acts of wandless magic, 
either.

I believe that Muggle students/parents get a letter saying, "Now 
that you know you're a wizard, please take care that no magic is 
performed in front of Muggles who have no knowledge of the wizarding 
world," since they know students will be tempted to experiment with 
their wands before school.

- JoAnna  




From pt4ever at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 16:38:22 2004
From: pt4ever at yahoo.com (JoAnna)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 16:38:22 -0000
Subject: Is Hermione Supposed to be a Genius?
In-Reply-To: <20040330113119.EBE2B1FCD34@front.interia.pl>
Message-ID: <c4c7pu+cuv9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94525

Viridis said:

<<<The previous answrs handled it in detail, so let me just quote 
T.A.Eddison (acclaimed as a genius): "Genius is 5% of inspiration 
and 95% of perspiration".>>>

Or, as Willy Wonka said, "Invention, my dear friends, is 93% 
perspiration, 6% electricity, 4% evaporation, and 2% butterscotch 
ripple."

Okay, that really has nothing to do with the discussion, but I love 
that quote.  :)
 
Wonderful posts, all.  I'm in the "Hermione is indeed a very 
intelligent witch, if not a genius" camp myself.  I'm sure that she 
will in some way contribute to LV's downfall, and her intelligence 
will be her contribution (I think she'll do something similar to 
getting past the logic puzzle in SS/PS).  

She's definitely headed for Head Girl... though I do have my doubts 
on who Head Boy will be.  (Right now I'm guessing either Harry, 
Terry Boot, or Draco Malfoy - *maybe* Ron if he gets his act 
together, but that's highly doubtful - the only reason I wonder is 
due to Ron's vision in the Mirror of Erised.  He's already helped to 
win the Quidditch Cup for Gryffindor, and I could see him eventually 
becoming Quidditch Captain or at least co-captain - is Head Boyship 
next?)

- JoAnna




From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Tue Mar 30 16:39:12 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 16:39:12 -0000
Subject: Snuffing Out Snape (Re: Snape, the "Deeply Horrible Person")
In-Reply-To: <c4btb6+ahqn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4c7rg+fk0b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94526

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severelysigune" <severelysigune at y...> wrote:
> Jen Reese wrote:
> He deserves even more. For my part he should be allowed some gloating 
> over those he's fooled, too, whoever they may turn out to be. 
> No really. If he dies, I'll feel horribly cheated. Let him live 
> nastily ever after for a change.
> 

Don't misunderstand, please; I don't *want* to send him to the great
cauldron in the sky, it's that I don't think he's  going to be allowed  to
decline into a miserable old age. No-one would cheer more than I if
he survived to make Harry's life sheer hell for the next 50 years or so,
complaining about declining standards, the impetuosity of youth and
how 'things were different when he were a lad'. I'm well on the way to
achieving such distinction myself and a great deal of satisfaction is
derived from winding people up, let me tell you.

Gloating is good. That annoys people  too, but with Snape too many 
would remember his past and suspect his actions. Let him come back
as a ghost, a new mentor for Hogwarts pupils. Then he could gloat
forever more. Never did like that Sir Nick, too pleasant by half.

Kneasy 





From xmezumiiru at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 17:19:43 2004
From: xmezumiiru at yahoo.com (An'nai Jiriki)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 09:19:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR didn't say "No: was re: Life-saving bonds
In-Reply-To: <c4c22p+5rk2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040330171943.43641.qmail@web12205.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94527


--- pippin_999 <foxmoth at qnet.com> wrote:
> But she didn't say that! She said, "Erm...I don't
> think so." And 
> since she knows all about Snape, that's  
> evasive,IMO. 

People often say, "I don't think" when they mean "I
don't know" as well.

It may just be that she hasn't made up her mind yet. 

It's so difficult to tell from someone's internet chat
what the speaker is infering. She could have been
giggling behind the keyboard. Unless she comes out and
says it, she could have been confused, misleading, or
obvious. We just don't know.

Chris

=====
"You irritate me. Kill me now." ~Javert, Les Miserables

__________________________________
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Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html



From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Mar 30 17:20:43 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 17:20:43 -0000
Subject: JKR excerps from a magazine
In-Reply-To: <Sea2-F69khqntKrUV0h00024b36@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <c4ca9b+6rjg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94528

Kathy quoted:
> 
"We've had a glut of very realistic, gritty, very bleak
books," says  Rowling. "Some of them are brilliantly written,
and I think it would be a tragedy if they weren't being written. 
Having said that, though, I don't  think Harry is an entirely 
frivolous book. There are difficult things that we see Harry go 
through, but it'snot an "issue" book in the sense that
you  would sit down afterreading it and think about what this 
books deals with,  what it  attempts to explain. You see Harry 
coming to terms with things in  his life, and I hope that all of that 
is integral to the story. But it's not  meant to be the main
thrust of  the story."

Kathy:
> The second paragraph (really the last two lines) was really 
something to  think about. Just thought I'd ask you fellow
posters what you thought.
> 
> I am very curious as to what the main thrust of the story is if its 
>not  about Harry.<<
 

I  think what JKR meant is that it *is* about Harry, about how he 
develops as a human being,  and not about social issues like 
child abuse, or educational reform, or racism, although it's 
integral to the story that Harry has to deal with these things.  

Pippin




From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Tue Mar 30 17:39:31 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 30 Mar 2004 19:39:31 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why DD might not want Snape for DADA job
Message-ID: <20040330173931.2D21E2A6443@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 94529

> Deb wrote: 
> > ------------Um, but he's ALREADY a professor. I don't see why 
> parents 
> > would object any more strongly to a criminal teaching their 
> children DADA rather than potions (according to Potioncat: poisons). 

Bah, it's pretty obvious that Dumble must have thrown a lot of his authority with the people who knew Snape's past, and he must have lots of trust in the man himself. 
I'm not talking about very rational reaction of the parents. It's just the effect of the words: Dark Arts practitioner teaching Defence Against Dark Arts. Sabotage? Fear of him "accidentally" jinxing a student? etc. So Dumble gives him a job he's well suited to and which is in less spotlight. Sure it's dangerous ("Snape Poisonmaster" sounds nice), but safe jobs are rare in Hogwarts. Although I'd like to see Severus teaching History of Magic. :)
Side note: the whole concept of Dark Arts/White Arts is oubtful and undefined properly.

> Potioncat:  Not only that, he's known to prowl around the dark halls 
> at night and he appears to be in charge of school security.  What 
> could DD be thinking!

This I guess is a "hobby" and not a part of job description, so Dumble and SNape are "clear" here. Although appointing former DE as security chief would be rather smart move (as I guess you're implying :)).

> (BTW, if he was cleared in whatever hearing DD referred to, then he 
> isn't a former criminal.)

I'm not sure what is the status of *royal witness*, if I use proper term. Any lawyers around?

Cheers, Viridis 
________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!



From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 17:56:55 2004
From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 17:56:55 -0000
Subject: Is Neville getting better at Potions?
In-Reply-To: <c4c5hn+tk65@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4ccd7+2u1p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94530

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at m...> 
wrote:

> Also, same chapter p663  McGonagall is speaking: "...Yes, Potter, 
> Potions," she added, with the merest flicker of a smile.
> 
> I always wondered if she was smiling at the look on his face, or 
> some inside joke she might share with Snape, or at the anticipated 
> look on Snape's face.  Now I wonder if 15 minutes before Potter 
> she'd said "Yes, Longbottom, Potions."
> 
> Potioncat who is beginning to think 6th year Potions might be very 
> interesting.

But wait! There's more! Didn't Snape say he only took the very best 
into the 6th & 7th year? Doesn't the above imply that HP (and maybe 
even Neville!) will do surprisingly (at least to Snape) well at the 
Potions OWL?

I cannot wait until book 6 to see who scored what.

-Joe in SoFla




From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Tue Mar 30 18:13:23 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 30 Mar 2004 20:13:23 +0200
Subject: Is Hermione Supposed to be a Genius?
Message-ID: <20040330181323.C9A4B2A645E@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 94531

> Silverthorne:
> To add to Viridis's comment via Eddison:
> 
> Just because you have a high IQ, does not necassarily mean that you have a
> little something called 'common sense* 

I fully aree with your comments on "practicality"; but I can't help myself to quote (again, sorry - a hobby) Einstein, on "common sense":
"Common sense is all that superstition and nonsene typical man is taught to believe by the age of 18" (retranslated)

> Many 'genius's' were quite capable of coming up with things [...]
> By the same token, some of them couldn't remember what they were doing
> three minutes ago [...]

But we also have to remmber that their quirks are remembered only because they were famous, whereas my friend who drove 40 km with the wallet containing six months pay laying on the top of his car will die unremembered. (real example, BTW). Also - the "crazy genius" is a popular stereotype, but not really founded. The research proved (among famous artists) that there were twice as many people with neurotical disorder (these was the only relevant factor) among them, it still was only 4% of the sample.

> And then there are the ones who *really* go over the deep end and become
> the genius 'monsters' (ask my lifemate about this one--she does a lot of
> study on Cold Case files, serial killers, so on and so forth--it's rather
> frightening to see how many of these criminals are *highly*
> intelligent--often topping the 190 range...O.O).

Yep, but that's the question of moral choice (often not fully conscious) or different sociopathies (both are interdependent). They simply empley they intelligence to other goals - and are very (and grimly) effective about this. Kinda like Voldie or our beloved Poisonmaster.

> Anyway, point is, high IQ does not immediately equal sucess and/or the
> ability to live sucessfully in an everyday scenario.

The high scores on "intelligence tests" are able to predict 25% of ariability in the academic career and life success, per average. It actually is more than it seems. :)

> She still needs a little work on the 'think and don't panic' scenarios (as >in with the Devil's Snare)...

Interestingly she makes one real and very "cold-headed" blunder in OotP - she charms the list to punish possible DA turncoats, but conceals the information, which effectively nullifies any preventive effect it could have had. She hadn't thought it through that it would be "hexing over spilled milk", so to say.

Cheers, Viridis
________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!



From kking0731 at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 30 18:22:23 2004
From: kking0731 at hotmail.com (Kathy King)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 13:22:23 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR excerps from a magazine
Message-ID: <Sea2-F38xb9iJCAgn5y000421be@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94532


>Pippin wrote:
>I  think what JKR meant is that it *is* about Harry, about how he
>develops as a human being,  and not about social issues like
>child abuse, or educational reform, or racism, although it's
>integral to the story that Harry has to deal with these things.


Thanks Pippin that makes a lot more sence!
I guess I was just over thinking it. I think I need to get out of Hogwarts a 
little more...lol


Kathy

_________________________________________________________________
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From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 18:54:59 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 18:54:59 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c46u90+lt9a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4cfq3+bki4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94533

Alla:
> Snape certainly got him good, poor man still could not find a job at 
> the end of OoP.


I'm not sure that we can blame Lupin's joblessness on Snape, as Lupin
would have resigned in any case because of his own fear of harming the
students, and recent legislation requires all werewolves to register
with the MoM, making it difficult for him to find a job anywhere.
There is, after all, a rational basis for the anti-werewolf prejudice
and it is spread throughout the WW.

Carol




From jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net  Tue Mar 30 18:33:58 2004
From: jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net (Robert Jones)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 18:33:58 -0000
Subject: Stupid things characters do to the sake of the plot
Message-ID: <c4ceim+6gf0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94534

I finished rereading COS last night, and I noticed that some of the 
characters do stupid things for which there is no explanation except 
that they are necessary to advance the plot.  Here are two examples 
from COS.

At the train station, when the wall at Platform 9 and 3/4 wouldn't 
open, Harry and Ron almost immediately run to the car.  I know they 
had to get the car into the Forbidden Forest at Hogwarts for later 
in the story, but shouldn't they just have waited for Arthur and 
Molly?  (And by the way, where were Arthur and Molly?  Didn't they 
notice that Harry and Ron didn't get through?  And shouldn't there 
have been other wizarding parents dribbling through the wall a 
couple at a time?)

At the end, Lockhart blabs all about the fake he is to Harry and Ron 
and then immediately turns around to put a Memory Charm on them.  I 
know he had to do so that Harry and Ron could get him down in the 
Chamber of Secrets to finish off the Lockhart story line and to get 
the ceiling to crash, but still that is just stupid for him to do.  
He had kept that secret for years and now was leaving and yet he 
still blabs away to a couple kids and then would have to explain why 
Harry and Ron lost their memories in his office.  (And by the way, I 
know it was hard to get a DADA teacher, but shouldn't the great DD 
have known Lockhart was a fake?)

Any other examples?





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 19:21:22 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 19:21:22 -0000
Subject: Snape's house
In-Reply-To: <c47a2u+dhdi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4chbi+g53a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94535

> Potioncat:
> I think Snape was in Slytherin.  It's hard to imagine  how a younger 
> Gryffindor could have hooked up with older Slytherins.  And if he 
> had, it would seem that the wording would have been, " he was in 
> Gryffindor, but he ran with a group of Slytherins..."
> 
> I will say this much, I've never understood Snape's jealousy of J. 
> Potter's quidditch skills.  If they had been in the same house and 
> competed for a place on the team, it might make more sense. 

Carol:
I agree that Snape was in Slytherin. It's almost inconceivable that a
non-Slytherin would want to join a gang of Slytherins or that they
would allow him. He has the cunning and ambition of a Slytherin and
he's now head of Slytherin House, a position that the likes of Lucius
Malfoy (a former member of the Hogwarts board of directors) would
strongly oppose being given to a non-Slytherin.

As for Snape's supposed jealousy of James's Quidditch skills, we don't
have any evidence of such jealousy from Snape himself. Isn't it Sirius
who attributes this jealousy to him? I can see Snape resenting James's
popularity, which (like Viktor Krum's) seems to have been based solely
or primarily on his Quidditch skills, without being jealous of the
Quidditch skills themselves. That emotion is attributed to him by
someone else (Sirius?), and I think we should be suspicious of
characters analyzing other characters' motives, especially Sirius
analyzing Snape. And certainly such jealousy, real or imagined, is
shaky evidence for assuming that Snape might have been a Gryffindor,
especially given the evidence to the contrary.

Carol




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 19:25:21 2004
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 19:25:21 -0000
Subject: Snape's house
In-Reply-To: <c4chbi+g53a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4chj1+2qhd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94536

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" 
<justcarol67 at y...> wrote:
> Carol:
> I agree that Snape was in Slytherin. It's almost inconceivable that 
a
> non-Slytherin would want to join a gang of Slytherins or that they
> would allow him. He has the cunning and ambition of a Slytherin and
> he's now head of Slytherin House, a position that the likes of 
Lucius
> Malfoy (a former member of the Hogwarts board of directors) would
> strongly oppose being given to a non-Slytherin.


I don't know. I think no more inconceivable than Luna "joining a gang 
of Gryffs", because her classmates bully her. :o)

Alla




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue Mar 30 19:37:46 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 19:37:46 -0000
Subject: Snape's house
In-Reply-To: <c4chj1+2qhd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4ciaa+8ru6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94537

Alla wrote:
> 
> 
> I don't know. I think no more inconceivable than Luna "joining a 
gang 
> of Gryffs", because her classmates bully her. :o)
> 


Potioncat:
Perhaps I'm not remembering this correctly. Did Luna join a gang of 
Gryffindors or did she become part of the DA?  I know she ends up at 
the MoM battle, but other than that time was she really just with 
the Gryffindors?  BTW, why do we think it was Ravenclaw that was 
bullying her.  If only Ravenclaw students took her stuff, she could 
have put her notice up on the Ravenclaw board not the one for the 
whole school.




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 19:56:56 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 19:56:56 -0000
Subject: Life-saving bonds
In-Reply-To: <05ca01c4150a$d434c1a0$75d6f943@hppav>
Message-ID: <c4cje8+q30@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94538

> >Amanar (why can't Snape be a vamp? WHY? Oh cruel world!)
> 
> *Kimberly's comment*
> I'm not arguing the point that Snape is or isn't a
vampire...however, while re-reading GoF this week, this quote jumped
out at me.
> 
> GoF, Amer. Ed., pg. 566
> Harry and Ron are discussing Snape and what happened to Mr. Crouch....
> 
> "Maybe-hang on-how fast d'you reckon he could've gotten down to the
forest ?   D'you reckon he could've beat you and Dumbledore there?"   
> 
> "Not unless he can turn himself into a bat or something," said Harry.


And of course he *didn't* do any such thing, which pretty much
indicates that he couldn't, any more than Sirius could turn himself
into a potted plant as Hannah Abbott suggested. 

Carol, who thinks that JKR has sufficiently quashed the vampire theory
and wishes we'd drop the subject




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 20:13:32 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 20:13:32 -0000
Subject: The bucking broomstick (Was:  Snape's house)
In-Reply-To: <c47h24+r09j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4ckdc+nf3q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94539

> JLV wrote:
> I know I am arguing against myself here, but it seems that Snape 
> wasn't very good at Quidditch anyway so his hopes of getting on the 
> team cannot have been great, if we take Snape's memories to be any 
> guide:
> "suddenly Harry's mind was teeming with memories that were not his:
a hook-nosed man was shouting at a cowering woman, while a small dark-
> haired boy cried in a corner
 a greasy-haired teenager sat alone in
a dark bedroom, pointing his wand at the ceiling, shooting down flies
 
> a girl was laughing as a scrawny boy tried to mount a bucking 
> broomstick" OotP
> This passage always makes me feel very sorry for Snape though.  I 
> wonder why JKR chose these particular scenes?  It does show us that 
> Snape was very lonely, however, and would perhaps jump at the chance 
> to join an exclusive gang of Slytherins who hated the rest of the 
> world as much as he did.

Carol:
Although I also feel sorry for young Severus in this scene, I don't
think it can be taken as an indication of his Quidditch-playing
abilities. At least as an adult he has no trouble controlling his
broom when he referees the Quidditch game in SS/PS. As we know from
Harry's remarks, a good broom won't throw off its rider, so either
this is not a good broom or it has a hex or jinx on it. We also see in
the flying lesson in SS/PS that a rider who's afraid of a broom can't
control it (Neville), but I don't see any indication of fear in this
scene--the boy (Severus) is *trying to mount* a bucking broom. IMO
it's not fear of flying or incompetence but stubborn unwillingness to
let the (jinxed or faulty) broom control him (which the girl in the
memory finds funny). We can't assume from this scene that Severus was
bad at Quidditch or that he was jealous of James's skill at Quidditch.
As I said in another post, the jealousy is someone else's assumption,
not a fact.

Carol, who wishes she knew who the girl was




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 19:50:36 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 19:50:36 -0000
Subject: Harry, Snape,Occlumency
In-Reply-To: <000601c4150e$0403cd60$05030f04@dslverizon.net>
Message-ID: <c4cj2c+8jk2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94540

Anne wrote:
> <snip> However, for Military trained people (and those kids raised
in a military school, military families, or participating in ROTC),
the ability to remain calm and rational no matter *what* Mr Asshole
Seargant is screaming (or nasty task he has set for you, including
traching your project at a moment's notice and telling you to "Start
over again, asshole")  at you is one of the primary foci of training.
Why? Because later, when you're stuck in a fox hole with bombs going
off right over your head, a bleeding gut wound, and the best buddy you
knew since high school laying right next to you with his guts hanging
out, you're still going to have to be able to function and *think* in
order to survive where you're at. Emotional reaction won't cut it.
Neither will a passive attitude. And without certain training, most
people can NOT function effectively in a violent situation like that.
They panic, they make emotional decisions, and nine times out of ten,
it kills them, and/or the people around them.
<snip>

It is ALSO exactly the treatment Snape gives to his students <snip>

To put it into a little bit of cannon *speculation*, this is why, I
suspect, some of Snape's actions (horrid as they are by even Rowling's
standards), are permitted and maybe even encouraged. The WW is at WAR.
War means that the peaceful, kind of way of dealing with things is a
luxury, and not, unfortunately, a right (Unless you would like to
'rightfully' loose your mind under pressure and then die as a result).
Sad but true. Like in RL wars of the past, the WW is under the
unslaught of a sadistic, amoral, evil bastard that, if not stopped,
will indeed visit a very bloody Holocast on the wizards, witches,
muggles and other creatures of Rowling's world.
> 
You can believe Snape is truly abusive or not, a horrid teacher or
not, but he is still delivering necessary lessons for a generation who
is not living in utopic peace...and is in fact at the moment, hurtling
to it's exact opposite--Hell on Earth--thanks to Voldemort. And
although what Snape does can be argued as 'damaging' to the kids in
present day pyschology terms, it will still help them when up against
Voldemort--because they will *already* know how to keep thinking, no
matter what's getting thrown at them, thanks to having to deal with Snape.
 
No one likes thier drill Sergeant...not until months or years later
when they are in thier unit, trapped in a do or die situation, and
those words "Think, Soldier!" come flashing through thier mind at the
crucial moment, and saves them.

Carol:
Thanks, Anne, for a thought-provoking post. You're absolutely right
that the WW is at war and that the student "soldiers" must be prepared
to deal with it or die. And note that Snape is actually, in a sense,
putting himself in Voldemort's place as an enemy out to get Harry:
("You are handing me weapons to use against you!") Snape *can't* say
"You're giving Voldemort weapons" in case LV encounters this memory in
Harry's head, and anyway, he's under orders from Dumbledore not to
tell Harry esactly what's going on. So instead he bears the brunt of
Harry's anger and suggests that *he* is the enemy whom Harry must
learn to resist. I don't think this is a flaw in his teaching methods.
I think it's a necessary simulation of a much worse encounter that
Harry is very likely to face.

Carol, who thinks that the anti-Snape faction should make up its mind
whether to blame him for the way he taught Occlumency *or* for ending
the lessons. It's neither fair nor logical to blame him for both.





From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Tue Mar 30 20:14:31 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 20:14:31 -0000
Subject: Stupid things characters do to the sake of the plot
In-Reply-To: <c4ceim+6gf0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4ckf7+4qr9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94541

Robert Jones wrote:
> At the train station, when the wall at Platform 9 and 3/4 wouldn't 
> open, Harry and Ron almost immediately run to the car.  I know they 
> had to get the car into the Forbidden Forest at Hogwarts for later 
> in the story, but shouldn't they just have waited for Arthur and 
> Molly?  (And by the way, where were Arthur and Molly?  Didn't they 
> notice that Harry and Ron didn't get through?  And shouldn't there 
> have been other wizarding parents dribbling through the wall a 
> couple at a time?)
> 

Siriusly Snapey Susan:

Robert, I'm going to answer this *tentatively* because I know my mind 
is going automatically to the *movie* on this one.  But if that 
accurately represents the book [can someone please confirm??  I'm at 
work!], then it can be answered by the fact that:  1) the clock was 
about to strike for hour of the train's departure, and apparently the 
Hogwarts Express does not wait for tardy entrants; and 2) the 
Weasleys had accompanied Ginny through the barrier, and Ron said 
(something along the lines of) if he & Harry couldn't get through the 
barrier, what if his parents also couldn't get back?  Hence, their 
unwillingness to wait long.  I'd think they might want to get to the 
car quickly, so as to keep the train in sight.

*Of course* they could have waited awhile or might have expected the 
Weasley parents to have figured out some solution later, but I think 
this is just how it played out for JKR.  

In other words, a short answer could be:  JKR wanted to write it that 
way!

Siriusly Snapey Susan






From siskiou at msn.com  Tue Mar 30 20:13:23 2004
From: siskiou at msn.com (Susanne)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 12:13:23 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Hermione Supposed to be a Genius?
In-Reply-To: <4069DB4D.1137.8C0A80@localhost>
References: <c4a5tu+trqv@eGroups.com> <4069DB4D.1137.8C0A80@localhost>
Message-ID: <987458236.20040330121323@msn.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94542



Hi,

Tuesday, March 30, 2004, 2:40:45 AM, Shaun wrote:

> The first if less certain - but her memory for what she has read
> seems to be fairly close to photographic -

I've always thought that Hermione must have a photographic
memory (which makes it very easy for her to remember facts
she may have only read about once, and to remember
incantations, potion's ingredients, spells...), but I've
never been sure if this is a sign of superior intelligence
in itself.

I'm sure it's a great boost in general, because she seems to
be the only one able to do spells on the first try, while others
mispronounce or leave out words, and it helps her to have
access to a whole bunch of spells that others (incl. Harry)
would have to spend a lot of time studying and repeating, to
make sure they aren't forgotten down the road.

Hermione certainly seems very intelligent and inquisitive,
and has the lack of social graces that's sometimes
attributed to geniuses (is this really typical for very
intelligent people, or just one of those generalizations?).

But what I've been curious about (and not just in regards to
Hermione) is, if there are people with photographic memory,
who *don't* appear to make good use of it in their lives.

Private answers would be fine, since this isn't necessarily
HP related.

-- 
Best regards,
 Susanne                           mailto:siskiou at msn.com

Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/





From annemehr at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 20:14:20 2004
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 20:14:20 -0000
Subject: Snuffing Out Snape (Re: Snape, the "Deeply Horrible Person")
In-Reply-To: <c4c7rg+fk0b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4ckes+v15h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94543

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt"
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severelysigune"
<severelysigune at y...> wrote:
> > Jen Reese wrote:
> > He deserves even more. For my part he should be allowed some gloating 
> > over those he's fooled, too, whoever they may turn out to be. 
> > No really. If he dies, I'll feel horribly cheated. Let him live 
> > nastily ever after for a change.

Annemehr:
Actually, the above quote was Severely Sigune (not Jen Reese, as it
appears).

Kneasy:
> Gloating is good. That annoys people  too, but with Snape too many 
> would remember his past and suspect his actions. Let him come back
> as a ghost, a new mentor for Hogwarts pupils. Then he could gloat
> forever more. Never did like that Sir Nick, too pleasant by half.
> 
> Kneasy

Oh, no, not a ghost, surely?  Snape, afraid of death, palely stalking
Hogwarts, but really neither here nor there?  No, if he dies, I'm sure
he'll go *on,* if only to tell Whoever Is There exactly what he thinks
of them.

NHN says very few wizards choose the ghostly path.  I figure we'll see
no more than one choose it by the end of the series.  Who might that
be, then?  Fudge? Bagman? Karkarov?  A Malfoy, even?

Annemehr
who figures the "obvious" candidate for ghosthood would be Voldemort
and therefore dismisses him outright








From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 20:20:07 2004
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 20:20:07 -0000
Subject: Harry, Snape,Occlumency
In-Reply-To: <c4cj2c+8jk2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4ckpn+b0kt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94544

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <>
 Carol, who thinks that the anti-Snape faction should make up its mind
> whether to blame him for the way he taught Occlumency *or* for 
ending
> the lessons. It's neither fair nor logical to blame him for both.

Hmm, Anti-Snape faction. Ok ;)

I don't think I have to, but if I have to choose, definitely for the 
end of the lessons.

I will never like his teaching style (well, will hate is more the 
word), will never agree that WW was at war since Snape started 
teaching, but at least if I knew that he had best intentions in mind, 
I could swallow it.

So, here you go - I blame him for the end of the lessons more than 
for the way he taught it. :o)


Alla




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue Mar 30 20:27:44 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 20:27:44 -0000
Subject: The bucking broomstick (Was:  Snape's house)
In-Reply-To: <c4ckdc+nf3q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4cl80+ov5l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94545



 
> Carol:
 At least as an adult he has no trouble controlling his
> broom when he referees the Quidditch game in SS/PS. As we know from
> Harry's remarks, a good broom won't throw off its rider, so either
> this is not a good broom or it has a hex or jinx on it.  IMO
> it's not fear of flying or incompetence but stubborn unwillingness 
to let the (jinxed or faulty) broom control him (which the girl in 
the memory finds funny). 
  
 
> Carol, who wishes she knew who the girl was

Potioncat: 
OK, who wants to start a Snape ship?
I'd vote on a young Hooch who continues to use her maiden name.  
After all, Hooch and brews just go together.

I think you have a good point, just because he had trouble that 
time, doesn't mean he never overcame it.  And we cannot take Sirius' 
comments about Snape's jealousy as fact.
Potioncat (who has a Mary Sue to nominate for cruise director.)  




From jjpandy at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 20:31:57 2004
From: jjpandy at yahoo.com (jjpandy)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 20:31:57 -0000
Subject: Is Hermione Supposed to be a Genius?
In-Reply-To: <4069DB4D.1137.8C0A80@localhost>
Message-ID: <c4clft+qif1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94546

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" <drednort at a...> 
wrote:
> 
> But more significant to her intelligence - well, here's the thing -
 
> we actually have a reasonable facsimile of the type of question 
> asked on many intelligence tests appearing in the text. It's only 
> one question - but the way she solves it, really does suggest a 
> very high IQ.
> 
> Again, it's in Philosopher's Stone - it's the Bottle Puzzle. This 
> is a puzzle based on pure logic - not on learned information.
> 
> It's a fairly complex question - and Hermione is able to solve it -
 
> without any writing, so she's keeping the whole logical sequence 
in 
> her head, as she manipulates it, and solves it - it appears in a 
> couple of minutes, but we don't know that - and she doesn't just 
> solve it - she is so *sure* of her solution, so confident she has 
> got it, she has no hesitation her life and those of her friends on 
> her answers. She is *positive* of her answers.
> 
> To solve that complexity of puzzle in minutes at the age of 11 or 
> 12, in your head, with that level of confidence in your answer - 
> that is seriously unusual. Especially under stress. It's 
> indicative, to me, that Hermione does have an exceptional IQ.
> 
> I obviously can't assess it precisely - but I wouldn't be 
surprised 
> at something over the 150 level, with that type of performance.
> 
> 
> Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
> Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
> (ISTJ)       | drednort at a... | ICQ: 6898200 
> "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
> thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
> facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
> uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
> need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
> Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia


JJPandy replied:
    Thank you, Shaun, for reminding everyone of a great example of 
Hermione's intelligence being applied in a stressful situation.  I 
have always thought it was a shame that the logic puzzle was cut 
from the story when the movie was made. After all, Ron got to keep 
his moment of glory with the chess match, so why was Hermione short-
changed in the movie?  I guess the directors thought that the 
Devil's Snare scene was adequate for showcasing Hermione's memory 
for class material.  
    Hermione is intelligent because, not only does she have a gift 
for understanding and retaining information, she does not let that 
gift go to waste.  In my experience of teaching students at the 
middle school level (the grade level of HRH in the first three 
books), I have never taught a student who worked as hard as Hermione 
does to succeed in school.  If only all students would want to read 
as much as Hermione!

Sincerely,
JJPandy (back after a long stretch of just lurking in the shadows)






From enigma_only at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 30 14:53:01 2004
From: enigma_only at hotmail.com (fiondavhar)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 14:53:01 -0000
Subject: Ottery St-Catchpole and Wizard War II
In-Reply-To: <c4b6rg+fuaq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4c1kd+37si@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94547

Bonny:
> 
> > I am reluctant to theorize more without some sort of list  reaction 
> > to build on, but it seems to me that JKR has laid the map very well 
> > for something big to happen in Ottery-St.Catchpole.  

Mike:    (Snip)


> Ok non-romantically now, I've just jumped on the Harry/Luna ship of 
> late. Yes, I believe you're right. In GoF some of the Fawcett's are 
> mentioned during the Yule Ball chapters. The fact that 3/4 of the 
> families right now are anti-voldemort (Fawcetts yet to be known, 
> Lovegood's nominally anti-voldie, but definately not pro-voldie) it 
> would make a good target for a Death Eater strike. It's true that 
> we've heard the name many times and still have only seen the Burrow. 
> Until this post I didn't even remember that the 
> Diggorys/Lovegoods/Fawcetts lived there as well. 


Bonny:

Okay, Ottery St. Mary is a real place in the Otter Valley, which I 
believe is in Devon (correct me if I am wrong). The otter is also, 
coincidentally, JKR's favourite animal and Hermione's patronus. The 
otter is defined as: Any of various aquatic, carnivorous mammals of 
the genus Lutra and allied genera, related to the minks and weasels 
and having webbed feet and dense, dark brown fur. (in another 
definition, the ferrett was included in this list, as well as the 
badger) 

So there we have realtion to Weasels (the Weasleys); badgers, ie 
Hufflepuffs, ie Cedric; ferrets ie Malfoy the amazing bouncing 
ferret; Lutra (sounds a little like Luna); otters ie Hermione... of 
course all that is speculation...
 
Anyone else find these connections interesting?

A catchpole is a sherrif's officer, particulary one that arrests 
debtors. 

So far as I can tell, there is no "Saint" Catchpole in real life. 

So the question is, who is the Sherrif, and who are his officers, and 
who is the debtor? Depends which side of the spectrum we are looking 
at.

I would love to continue but unfortunatley I have a pressing 
appointment - perhaps someone else will continue for me?

I want to hear more ideas!

Bonny





From ekrbdg at msn.com  Tue Mar 30 18:30:23 2004
From: ekrbdg at msn.com (Kimberly)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 13:30:23 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Neville getting better at Potions?
References: <c4ccd7+2u1p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <030c01c41685$11866ba0$7fd6f943@hppav>

No: HPFGUIDX 94548

Joe in SoFla:

>But wait! There's more! Didn't Snape say he only took the very best 
>into the 6th & 7th year? Doesn't the above imply that HP (and maybe 
>even Neville!) will do surprisingly (at least to Snape) well at the 
>Potions OWL?

>I cannot wait until book 6 to see who scored what.



*Kimberly*
That leads me to this question, who grades O.W.L.S. and N.E.W.T.'s ?    If the teacher does it, then Snape could very well choose at his own discretion who he doesn't want with him 6th and 7th year.     I doubt that's the case but just wondering about that.    

Kimberly


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.645 / Virus Database: 413 - Release Date: 3/28/2004

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





From hannah at readysolve.com  Tue Mar 30 16:45:08 2004
From: hannah at readysolve.com (khilari2000)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 16:45:08 -0000
Subject: Could Snape be part goblin?
Message-ID: <c4c86k+55ct@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94549

Hi, I have posted before, but only once, ages ago and under a 
different name. Then my Yahoo account dissappeared. Anyway, with all 
the posts about whether Snape is a vampire or not I thought I'd weigh 
in with my theory. I do feel it's fairly logical and would be 
interested in whether anyone can find anything in canon to 
refute/support it.

To start with I thought it was unlikely that Snape is spying on 
Voldemort, LV would have to be pretty stupid to accept him back 
without real proof that he was a DE. So it seems like Snape has 
either proven he is a DE, which I don't believe, or is not spying on 
Voldemort. So then I thought, if he hasn't gone to join the DEs, 
where has he gone? Well, the other two people on dangerous missions 
that summer were Lupin and Hagrid, both liasing with non-human 
beings. So I wondered if Snape were doing the same thing for the same 
reason. Isn't there supposed to be a pattern of threes in the HP 
books? In that case it would be logical for him to be liasing with 
the goblins, as the other major non-human race mentioned in the 
books. It would be a dangerous task to judge by the fact that the 
goblin rebellions were eventful enough that they are all Harry ever 
seems to study! And as the other two envoys were half-breeds it 
seemed logical that Snape could be one too.

His appearance could be said to support this theory, as he is 
described as having a hooked nose and sallow skin. Also goblins have 
a sadistic streak, judging by some of the traps at Gringotts.
I apologise for a long post, but thought that if I was going to toss 
another Snapey theory into the mix I ought to justify it.

Khilari.





From rhobbs at intergate.com  Tue Mar 30 19:29:19 2004
From: rhobbs at intergate.com (rhabenh)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 19:29:19 -0000
Subject: Underage magic enforcement
In-Reply-To: <WorldClient-F200403291609.AA09118881@mbc.edu>
Message-ID: <c4chqf+vkon@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94550

Louise:

> The MOM, for instance, didn't go after Harry and Ron for 
> flying the car, even though it was a serious offense viewed by
> Muggles;  it was left to their school and parents to discipline them.



The Weasley boys explained how they could fly the car and not get in
trouble with MoM.  They didn't enchant the car, it is okay to use
things that others have enchanted, they just can't do it themselves.

My question is why wasn't Harry punished for what he did in MoM to
Bellatrix at the end of OotP?  Anyone got any theories?  

Robin





From submarimon15 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 20:20:49 2004
From: submarimon15 at yahoo.com (submarimon15)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 20:20:49 -0000
Subject: Snape's house
In-Reply-To: <c4ciaa+8ru6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4ckr1+8tin@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94551

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at m...> 
wrote:
> Alla wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > I don't know. I think no more inconceivable than Luna "joining a  gang 
> > of Gryffs", because her classmates bully her. :o)
> > 
> 
> 
> Potioncat:
> Perhaps I'm not remembering this correctly. Did Luna join a gang of 
> Gryffindors or did she become part of the DA? 

<snip>

Mike:
She didn't really "join" the group of Gryffindors, but she did have 
a bunch of interaction with them. Sharing a section on the train, 
joining the DA, getting her dad to publish the article etc. 

I can't remember exactly how she ended up tied up in Umbridge's 
office with the others right now, but I'm going to assume that she's 
just friends with Ginny. After all, how many Gryffindor friends does 
Ginny even have? I don't seem to recall her ever being mentioned 
around with other Gryffindors in her year. She usually rides the 
train with the trio does she not?

I suppose after the school finding out you were being controlled by 
Voldie and setting a Basilisk around the castle you wouldn't be that 
popular would you?

Mike





From LadySawall at aol.com  Tue Mar 30 20:21:09 2004
From: LadySawall at aol.com (Jo Ann)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 20:21:09 -0000
Subject: Why DD might not want Snape for DADA job
In-Reply-To: <20040330173931.2D21E2A6443@front.interia.pl>
Message-ID: <c4ckrl+a0oh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94552

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, bufo_viridis at i... wrote:

> It's just the effect of the words: Dark Arts practitioner teaching 
Defence Against Dark Arts. Sabotage? Fear of him "accidentally" 
jinxing a student? etc. So Dumble gives him a job he's well suited to 
and which is in less spotlight. 



That makes a lot of sense to me.  I think DD could have more than one 
reason, though, and another one occurred to me a few days ago while 
musing over the teachers who *have* gotten the DADA job...

Discounting Quirrel, who was hired before it became obvious that 
Voldemort was back on the rise, every DADA teacher--good or bad--has 
possessed either great self-confidence or the ability to fake it.  
And they've all helped pass that important trait along to the kids, 
whether intentionally or not.  Lockhart showed them that a bluff can 
save your arse, but can only be taken so far.  Umbridge taught them 
that they have the potential to be extremely dangerous.

But hasn't it been observed repeatedly that underneath all that 
posturing, Snape is an essentially insecure person?--at least when it 
comes to relating to others.  And he passes that along, too.  He 
impresses and intimidates, not by convincing the students that he 
knows what he's doing, but by convincing them that *they don't.*

Which he might be able to get away with in Potions, even if it makes 
him a rotten teacher.  It might be for the best if someone like 
Neville never develops an enthusiasm for concocting stuff that could 
blow him and others sky-high.  But it's exactly the opposite of what 
the kids need to learn in DADA--everyone has to know how to defend 
themselves, whether they're particularly good at it or not.

Imagine the fiasco if Snape had tried to teach Neville how to fight a 
boggart...

J. Spencer





From enigma_only at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 30 20:20:13 2004
From: enigma_only at hotmail.com (fiondavhar)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 20:20:13 -0000
Subject: Riddle's bravery
Message-ID: <c4ckpt+9q5k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94553

In CoS, when Harry and Riddle are discussing Riddle's past as a 
student and framing of Hagrid, Riddle starts going on about how he 
was so brilliant, a model student, and so BRAVE...  Brave was 
stressed, it was in italics.

I am wondering what Riddle had done to be thought so brave, and why 
this does not immeadiatley jump out at us as a parallel of Harry. In 
fact there are many many parallels drawn between the two in this 
chapter and throughout the books.

While on the topic, I would like to drop this little pebble in the 
pool - what if Dumbledore was once as close to Tom as he now is to 
Harry? He speaks of him, and to him, in the same familiar manner with 
which he speaks to Harry, and seems to know all about his history and 
brilliance. And hey, you know the Ron=DD theory? What if Harry=Voldy? 
Neither can live while the other survives... does that mean they 
might be the same? In essence divided?

lol a little far fetched (in fact more than a little) but fun to 
theorize about.

Bonny





From jjpandy at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 20:41:08 2004
From: jjpandy at yahoo.com (jjpandy)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 20:41:08 -0000
Subject: Stupid things characters do to the sake of the plot
In-Reply-To: <c4ceim+6gf0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4cm14+go3l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94554

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Robert Jones" 
<jones.r.h.j at w...> wrote:
> I finished rereading COS last night, and I noticed that some of 
the 
> characters do stupid things for which there is no explanation 
except 
> that they are necessary to advance the plot.  Here are two 
examples 
> from COS.
> 
> At the train station, when the wall at Platform 9 and 3/4 wouldn't 
> open, Harry and Ron almost immediately run to the car.  I know 
they 
> had to get the car into the Forbidden Forest at Hogwarts for later 
> in the story, but shouldn't they just have waited for Arthur and 
> Molly?  (And by the way, where were Arthur and Molly?  Didn't they 
> notice that Harry and Ron didn't get through?  And shouldn't there 
> have been other wizarding parents dribbling through the wall a 
> couple at a time?)
> 
> At the end, Lockhart blabs all about the fake he is to Harry and 
Ron 
> and then immediately turns around to put a Memory Charm on them.  
I 
> know he had to do so that Harry and Ron could get him down in the 
> Chamber of Secrets to finish off the Lockhart story line and to 
get 
> the ceiling to crash, but still that is just stupid for him to 
do.  
> He had kept that secret for years and now was leaving and yet he 
> still blabs away to a couple kids and then would have to explain 
why 
> Harry and Ron lost their memories in his office.  (And by the way, 
I 
> know it was hard to get a DADA teacher, but shouldn't the great DD 
> have known Lockhart was a fake?)
> 
> Any other examples?

JJPandy replied:
I always found it amusing that JKR lightly spoofed movies and TV 
shows where the bad guy confesses all of his/her evil doings right 
before he/she is supposed to kill the good guys and/or escape.  It 
rarely works. If Lockhart hadn't had his memory erased, I almost 
would have expected the movie directors to have had Lockhart being 
led away by DD and then have him turn one last time to Ron and Harry 
the movie and say "I would have escaped if it hadn't been for these 
meddlesome kids!" (Scooby-Doo flashbacks, anyone?)
:)
JJPandy (back after a long time of just lurking in the shadows)
  




From slytherin501 at yahoo.es  Tue Mar 30 20:27:40 2004
From: slytherin501 at yahoo.es (Sembei Grindelwald)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 20:27:40 -0000
Subject: JKR didn't say "No: was re: Life-saving bonds
In-Reply-To: <c4c22p+5rk2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4cl7s+u7lf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94555

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> 
wrote:
 
> "Erm...I don't think so." Meaning, 'Well-spotted, but don't let's 
> spoil the surprise.' <g>


"Erm... I don't think so." Meaning, 'There is no link between Snape 
and other vampires' ;)

Sembei





From lmthib at earthlink.net  Tue Mar 30 14:45:11 2004
From: lmthib at earthlink.net (Lynette)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 09:45:11 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
Subject: Underage magic
Message-ID: <28227479.1080657911676.JavaMail.root@huey.psp.pas.earthlink.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 94556

>From Mo:

Similarly, to your post, I have always wondered why
only STUDENTS were forbiden to use magic under the
decree of Underage Wizadry.  ....  Now, I don't know if the ministry doesn't regulate
them too much because they aren't old enought to have
a wand, yet, and their magic can't do anything
significant.  But, I WOULD like to know why they are
allowed, and Hogwarts student's aren't.



I think it is about "a little knowledge is dangerous".  A half trained wizard or witch outside of the magical controls set up at Hogwarts could start some magic that was too powerful for them to control.  This could allow Muggles to find out about magic or someone could be hurt or killed by accident.

Lynette








From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 21:07:31 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 21:07:31 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c484g3+9grh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4cnij+ietu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94557

Alla wrote:
> Yes, dear Dolores put anti-werevolves law into action. but for Lupin 
> finding a job was never easy, I'd imagine, so being fired from 
> Hogwarts must have hurt a lot.
> 
> I was just saying that whatever humiliation (well-deserved, IMO) 
> Snape suffered after being dressed up in Lupin's lesson, he paid 
> Lupin back ten times and more.

Lupin is not actually fired from Hogwarts. He realizes that Snape is
right and that the parents who won't want a werewolf teaching their
children are right as well:

"This time tomorrow, the owls will start arriving from parents. . . .
They will not want a werewolf teachingi their children, Harry. And
after last night, I see their point. I could have bitten any of you. .
. . *That must not happen again*" (PoA 425).

So, yes, Snape's revelation prompted Lupin's resignation, and perhaps
part of his motivation was spite, but he had tried for the entire
school year to get Dumbledore to realize the danger of hiring a
werewolf (the same one who nearly bit him when he was sixteen) as a
teacher. The only reason that the danger had not been still greater
was that Snape had prepared the wolfbane potion. Near the end of PoA
we see what happens when Lupin fails to drink it.

I think and hope that Lupin came to this realization on his own and
that he was already prepared to resign even if Snape hadn't let his
students know what he thought they had a right to know. (Note that he
maintained his silence until Lupin failed to take the Potion and
actually turned into a werewolf.)

There's more involved here than spite or prejudice against people who
are "different." Werewolves are extremely dangerous, and Lupin finally
realizes that the students' safety is more important than his having a
steady job. (In any case, neither Dumbledore nor Sirius is going to
let him starve.)

It was *right* for Lupin to leave, whether or not Snape "outed" him.
The question is not baseless discrimination but his own awareness of
what is right.

Carol




From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 21:23:06 2004
From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (drjuliehoward)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 21:23:06 -0000
Subject: Is Neville getting better at Potions?
In-Reply-To: <c4ccd7+2u1p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4cofr+s5ef@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94558

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jmgarciaiii" 
<jmgarciaiii at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" 
<willsonkmom at m...> 
> wrote:
> 
> > Also, same chapter p663  McGonagall is speaking: "...Yes, 
Potter, 
> > Potions," she added, with the merest flicker of a smile.
> > 
> > I always wondered if she was smiling at the look on his face, or 
> > some inside joke she might share with Snape, or at the 
anticipated 
> > look on Snape's face.  Now I wonder if 15 minutes before Potter 
> > she'd said "Yes, Longbottom, Potions."
> > 
> > Potioncat who is beginning to think 6th year Potions might be 
very 
> > interesting.
> 
> But wait! There's more! Didn't Snape say he only took the very 
best 
> into the 6th & 7th year? Doesn't the above imply that HP (and 
maybe 
> even Neville!) will do surprisingly (at least to Snape) well at 
the 
> Potions OWL?
> 
> I cannot wait until book 6 to see who scored what.
> 
> -Joe in SoFla

I wonder if Snape would be surprised or not.  We really do not know 
how well the other students are doing.  Snape may be the kind of 
teacher who is hardest on the ones who have the most potential.  
After all, he knows how the Ravenclaw and Hufflepuffians are doing, 
we may not because Harry may not.  Harry and Neville may be among 
the best of their year, reagardless of how poorly they had 
performed.  Could this be a reason Snape was not at the OWLS?  He 
was teaching them "under pressure" but they were tested with this 
pressure from him off.  Hmmmm...  




From submarimon15 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 21:01:49 2004
From: submarimon15 at yahoo.com (submarimon15)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 21:01:49 -0000
Subject: Underage magic enforcement
In-Reply-To: <c4chqf+vkon@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4cn7t+uqjr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94559

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rhabenh" <rhobbs at i...> wrote:
> Louise:
> 
> > The MOM, for instance, didn't go after Harry and Ron for 
> > flying the car, even though it was a serious offense viewed by
> > Muggles;  it was left to their school and parents to discipline them.

Robin:
> My question is why wasn't Harry punished for what he did in MoM to
> Bellatrix at the end of OotP?  Anyone got any theories?  

Mike:
Did anyone else even see Harry use Cruciatus on Bellatrix? I know 
Fudge and a bunch of others appeared during/after the battle between 
Dumbledore, but I believe there was a lack of witnesses to Harry 
using an unforgiveable curse. I just don't think Bellatrix is going 
to walk into Auror HQ and try to press charges.

> From Mo:
>
> Similarly, to your post, I have always wondered why
> only STUDENTS were forbiden to use magic under the
> decree of Underage Wizadry. .... Now, I don't know if the
> ministry doesn't regulate
> them too much because they aren't old enought to have
> a wand, yet, and their magic can't do anything
> significant. But, I WOULD like to know why they are
> allowed, and Hogwarts student's aren't.
>
>
Lynette:
> I think it is about "a little knowledge is dangerous". A half
trained wizard or witch outside of the magical controls set up at
Hogwarts could start some magic that was too powerful for them to
control. This could allow Muggles to find out about magic or
someone could be hurt or killed by accident.


Mike:
I doubt it's about the 11 year olds trying out a spell or two
from "The Standard Book of Spells Grade 1" when they first get their
wand before school. I'd say it's more like a 4th year who thinks it
would be cool to try out that new dueling technique they learned in
6th year DADA or whatnot.

Mike




From vmonte at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 21:43:29 2004
From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 21:43:29 -0000
Subject: Snape's house
In-Reply-To: <c4ckr1+8tin@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4cpm1+n24p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94560

vmonte writes:

Wasn't Wormtail a Gryffindor?  Isn't he now associated with Voldy's 
gang of DEs who are/were mostly from Slytherin house.  
Who would deny an obviously advanced dark arts student, like Snape, 
access into the gang?  Especially when he has a lot more he can offer?

vmonte




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 21:44:54 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 21:44:54 -0000
Subject: Snape's walking pattern Was: Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c490l5+g1cd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4cpom+15n8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94562

> Carol wrote:
> Actually, the adult Snape has never been described as "twitchy" and
he tends to sweep gracefully out of every room he enters (aided, of
> course, by that long black cloak)
> 
> Berit replies:
> Ah, sorry! My mistake; wrong choice of words. True, Snape has not 
> been described as walking in a "twitching" manner as an adult. The 
> word I should have used is "prowling" (if I remember correctly). In 
> the scene in PS where Harry spots Snape on his way to the forest to 
> have a chat with Quirrell, Harry says he recognised Snape by 
> his "prowling" walk.
> 
> According to www.merriam-webster.com , the verb "prowl" means "to 
> move about or wander stealthily in or as in search of prey/to roam 
> over in a predatory manner." I'm not saying the sight of a predator 
> moving stealthily after its prey is not a picture of elegance and 
> power (it certainly is), but "prowling" is not the word I would have 
> used to describe a human being moving gracefully and elegant with
his cloak swishing impressively around his stately body... An animal
on the prowl tends to crouch low, keeping its head down while it moves 
> stealthily. <snip>
> 
> The one doesn't necessarily exclude the other, but "prowling" to me 
> adds an extra dimension to Snape's walking patterns! He's not JUST 
> elegant and impressive; there's still some leftovers from his 
> childhood in the way he walks. This fits nicely with the drawing 
> Rowling has made of him: Not very Alan Rickmannish I'm afraid; he 
> looks more hunched up and "twitchy" than graceful and elegant...
Yes, his walk has an aura of elegance and power in the way he is
described in the books, no doubt, but there's still the prowl which he
haven't been able to get rid of... And canon suggests it is a usual
way for him to move around, because it's his *walk* in that scene that
makes Harry recognise him! If he saved the "prowling" for special
occasions only, then Harry wouldn't have been able to recognise him
for it. "Prowling" seems to be very snapish...


Carol:
And yet on numerous occasions, the verb used to describe his movements
is "swept"--possibly reserved for when he's leaving (or possibly
entering) a room, though it may be used on other occasions when he
wants to appear impressive. "Prowling" is primarily used when he's
walking the corridors or silently leaving Hogwarts to meet with
Quirrell in the forest. I imagine that "prowling" walk serves him
well, too, when he's spying and doesn't want to be seen. I don't see
"prowling" and "sweeping" as contradictory--both require a kind of
grace and both fit with the adult image he has cultivated, which is
very different from that of the "twitchy" adolescent of the Pensieve
memory. 

Carol




From steffy07 at aol.com  Tue Mar 30 21:51:03 2004
From: steffy07 at aol.com (steffy07)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 21:51:03 -0000
Subject: The bucking broomstick (Was:  Snape's house)
In-Reply-To: <c4cl80+ov5l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4cq47+856o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94563

(snipped post on Snape's relationships because frankly...I don't 
want to think about it :o)

> I think you have a good point, just because he had trouble that 
> time, doesn't mean he never overcame it.  And we cannot take 
Sirius' 
> comments about Snape's jealousy as fact.
> Potioncat (who has a Mary Sue to nominate for cruise director.)

But, about the jealousy issue...I am currently re-reading POA, and I 
at the point when Snape is confronting Harry in his office about 
Harry's "floating head" incident, and he makes several references to 
James's superior Quidditch and flying skills and talents.  I don't 
have my book in front of me now, I'm at work, its in the car, but 
I'll post them as soon as I get home.  

Steffy




From rmm7e at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 21:58:59 2004
From: rmm7e at yahoo.com (Regina)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 21:58:59 -0000
Subject: Stupid things characters do to the sake of the plot
In-Reply-To: <c4ceim+6gf0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4cqj3+4530@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94564

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Robert Jones" 
<jones.r.h.j at w...> wrote:
> At the end, Lockhart blabs all about the fake he is to Harry and 
Ron 
> and then immediately turns around to put a Memory Charm on them.

Yes, this was stupid but:
1) It's totally in character for Lockhart to brag.
2) He's confident enough in his Memory Charms to not be concerned 
how much he blabs.
3) This type of exposition is common in the series near the end of 
the books, from various characters.

I 
> know it was hard to get a DADA teacher, but shouldn't the great DD 
> have known Lockhart was a fake?)

Undoubtedly he did. McGonagall and Snape certainly did. Dumbledore 
puts up with a lot of teachers with flaws (Snape, Hagrid, and 
Trelawney, to name just a few) because he seems to think that 
EVERYBODY, despite their flaws, has something to offer. It's a nice 
lesson, actually. DD always seems to take an "it's all for the best" 
attitude about everything. I envy his calm.

--Regina




From lbiles at flash.net  Tue Mar 30 22:08:14 2004
From: lbiles at flash.net (leb2323)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 22:08:14 -0000
Subject: Snape outing Harry as Parselmouth (was Re: If DD knows, then why..?)
In-Reply-To: <c4ae6f+hlhn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4cr4e+hf6o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94565

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at m...>
wrote:
>  
> > Mandy here:
> > But the question raised was; Was it unusual for Draco, a 12-year-
> old 
> > wizard, to conger the Serpensortia spell? I was arguing that it
was 
> > not, as there would have been a stir from the kids if it was.  
> > 
> >
> 
> Potioncat:
 My questions are: Who taught him, 
> Snape or Lucius? (I think it would have been Lucius.)  

leb:
I always just kind of thought that since the Slytherin mascot was a
serpent that it wasn't all that unusual for Draco to know that spell.
 Kind of like the Weasley twins playing practical jokes in the
Gryffindor common room -- maybe the Slytherins conjure snakes and set
them on each other for grins.




From jdr0918 at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 30 22:26:12 2004
From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 22:26:12 -0000
Subject: Is Hermione Supposed to be a Genius?
In-Reply-To: <20040330181323.C9A4B2A645E@front.interia.pl>
Message-ID: <c4cs64+obqp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94568

<<<In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, bufo_viridis at i... 
wrote: ...Interestingly she makes one real and very "cold-headed" 
blunder in OotP - she charms the list to punish possible DA 
turncoats, but conceals the information, which effectively nullifies 
any preventive effect it could have had...>>>

The Sergeant Majorette says

The blunder she made was leaving the list behind when the meeting was 
raided. Remember, our Hermione is a *bitch*. I don't think any 
preventive effect was intended. Hermione is a very intelligent 
person, but she's hard-headed and maybe a bit "socially retarded", as 
it were.

Genius doesn't equal perfection. Even geniuses make mistakes.

Then too, bear in mind that plain, "swotty" Hermione was written as 
JKR's avatar. I think the technical American-English term for that 
sort of intelligence is "smarty-pants".

--JDR




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 22:26:54 2004
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 22:26:54 -0000
Subject: Harry's disposition -Suburban Wasteland
In-Reply-To: <20040330035909.33126.qmail@web13506.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c4cs7e+5udd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94569

-- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ms Mo Me <fauntine_80 at y...> wrote:
> I think Harry is acting perfectly normal considering
> his circumstances in OoP.
>
> He was shut away with his Aunt and Uncle for a month
> ... THEN he was attacked by dementors.
>
> THEN he gets a letter saying he is kicked out of
> school, ...
>
> THEN he is taken to the Order and STILL not given too
> much information.
>
> He BARELY passes his trial, and DD won't look a him
> ...
>
> His two best friends are made prefect ... now Malfoy has a small
> AUTHORITY over HP. ...
>
> He goes back to school only to find out he's the
> laughing stock of the WW and has to deal with Umbridge
> ...
>
> He is constantly worried about his loved ones and
> friends getting killed. He continually has nightmares ...
>
> He has to deal with the stress of O.W.L.'s and Snape
> beating down his throat.
>
> He is dealing with conflicting emotions with Cho, ...
>
> The list goes on and on........
>
> I would be a little peeved (no, not Peeves!) too if
> this was going on in my life. A 15 year old boy can
> only handle so much!
>
> If Harry is a little angry and snappy at times, he has
> every right to be!
>
>
> ~Mo, who thinks JKR has great insite into the human psyche.

bboy_mn:

Let me chime in with the others and say that I couldn't agree more.
Given the circumstances how could Harry not be the Harry we saw in
OotP? I mean the misery heaped upon this poor boys in unrelenting. Is
it that unusual that he becomes frustrated and angry? I think not.

Let me expand on one point. Let's focus on his time at Privet Drive.

Harry goes through an extreme trama, he is thrown into the
Tri-Wizard's tournement against his will, Ron is mad at him, he is
nearly killed, he witnesses the murder of a fellow student that he has
grown to respect, we witnesses the re-birth of Voldemort, minutes
later he is surrounded by Death Eaters, a split second quirk of fate
saves him from death, he see his parent come out of Voldemort's wand
and talks to them briefly, then to top it all off, he is nearly killed
by Fake!Moody who he has also grown to trust and admire.

If that weren't enough, he is then uncerimoniously dumped at Privet
Drive. No one makes any attempt to talk to him, to lend any
reassurance or perspective to his own near death and Voldemort's
rebirth. As always, Herry is left ALONE to deal with the situation on
his own. "Stiff upper lip" and all that be damned, don't these people
have brains, or hearts, for that matter. It didn't occur to anyone
that Harry might need some support to deal with that trama? OOOOH
NOOOOO! Just let him work it out on his own.

Now to the most critical part. Harry, as always in his sad life, has
only himself to rely on to deal with his tramatic circumstance. But as
some one with limited life experience, as some one with few role
models, few guides in his life, few examples of balance and
perspective in life, few balanced reference points, it's not a
surprising that his thinking occassionally gets a little twisted.

Look at how quickly his thinking became warped when the returned from
visiting Mr. Weasley in the hospital the first time. In no time at
all, using a seemingly perfect path of logic, Harry has himself
convinced that he is some kind of monster that is a danger to everyone
around him.

Since he has never in his life had anyone he could comfortably turn to
for support and perspective, he decides on his own that he has to
leave Grimmauld Place and return to Privet Drive. Only the fortuitous,
yet without explanation or reason, demand by Dumbledore that he 'stay
where you are', keeps Harry from leaving. Even then, he is not
reassured, and reasonably so. Instead, still convinced he is a monster
that isn't fit to be around normal people, Harry spends his time
hiding from his friends.

There are several other more minor examples of Harry's thinking
process being lacking in perspective and hyper-rationalized in OotP
and the other books as well. And you will notice that as soon as other
people do intervene and lend a balance perspective, Harry gets back on
track very quickly. It has to be hell being such a lonely isolated boy.

I remember being a teen. I remember various bouts of similar types of
hyper-rationalized thinking which lead to equally irrational conclusions.

Given the hellishly tramatic things Harry has experienced, and the
absolutely horrible (near criminal in my book) support he has been
given by the people he trusts, it's a complete wonder that Harry is as
well adjusted as he is.

Everyone else complains that they can't see how Harry could be so
angry even factoring in Teen Angst. Personally, I can't see how Harry
could possibly be as calm and rational as he is. If anything his
anger, fear, and frustration are underplayed.

Given the hell and loneliness Harry has had to endure, if he were a
typical modern suburban teen, he would probably end up in the Great
Hall with an AK-47 taking out his frustration on anyone and everyone
who fell between his sights.

But then that's just my opinion.

bboy_mn











From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net  Tue Mar 30 22:35:57 2004
From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 16:35:57 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Life-saving bonds
References: <c4cs0r+gr06@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002501c416a7$5efcecc0$05030f04@dslverizon.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 94570

So--those of you who think vampire!Snape  is well and truly 
quashed-- what do you think JKR is playing at?

Pippin


{Silverthorne}
That Voldemort is going to try Vampirism next, if he isn't one already... .


*************************************

Anne/Silverthorne
Silverthorne.Dragon at verizon.net (Nights and Weekends)
Anne-TMC-RCVG.Campbell at tenetheath.com (6am-3pm American Central, Mon-Fri.)



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From lbiles at flash.net  Tue Mar 30 22:35:11 2004
From: lbiles at flash.net (leb2323)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 22:35:11 -0000
Subject: Snape the bat [was Re: Life-saving bonds]
In-Reply-To: <c4bn9m+9v5f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4csmv+oapc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94571

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at m...>
wrote:
> > Amanar:
> > *sigh* I was convinced by Lupin's vampire essay, but as we all 
> know, 
> > JKR stomped the whole theory on the last webchat she gave on
March 
> > 4th. When somebody asked her whether there is a link between
Snape 
> > and vampires, she answered "erm... no."
> 
> Potioncat:
> I'm not a Snape as vampire fan.  But I do wonder what all the bat 
> images associated with him are about.  We can understand all the
dog 
> ones that come up with Sirius and the the wolf like ones with Remus.
> 

leb:
It has been just delightful following the countless Snape threads
that are running right now.  My reply to this particular thread is 
actually from a thought sparked while reading a different thread. 
There has been some discussion that Snape was actually in 
Gryffindor as the 5th student with MWPP.  What if he really had been
and he learned to become an animangus as well (a bat of 
course) along with the others when they were learning how.  Snape's
forsaking MWPP as buddies to starting running with that death 
eater gang of Slytherins would be just the impetus needed to spark
the extreme hatred and animosity between Snape and MWPP.  
That would also explain why Sirius would want to jink him just
because he exists as well or whatever that quote is (I'm without
books at the moment of course!).  Any thoughts on this?





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 22:41:07 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 22:41:07 -0000
Subject: Snape, the "Deeply Horrible Person"
In-Reply-To: <c49hd8+29p9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4ct23+l1aj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94573

Q: Who's your favorite character besides Harry Potter?
 
A: It's very hard to choose. It's fun to write about Snape 
> because  he's a deeply horrible person. Hagrid is someone I'd 
> love to meet. 
<snip>
This seems like a *very* strong negative characterization to 
> me. It  also doesn't seem particulary consistent with the canon 
> we have so far. Snape is presented as complex, bitter, angry, 
> etc.<<
> 
Pippin:
<snip>
>  I think  Snape is cruel for the same reason that Harry was in 
> OOP,when he told  Hedwig to peck Ron and Hermione, and felt
> satisfied when he saw signs of the damage. Under the anger 
> there's a lot of hurt, and hurting others gives him satisfaction 
> because it  validates his pain. I think Rowling wants us to 
> understand that this is no more  out of character for Harry than it 
> is for Snape or any human being--we're all capable of such 
> behavior.

Carol:
I agree with the original poster that "deeply horrible person" isn't
consistent with the complex character we've seen so far and with
Pippin that there's a lot of hurt under that anger. (Look at the pain
Harry envisions inflicting on Snape. I suppose the difference is that
Snape is capable of inflicting pain--always psychological except for
one moment of uncontrolled anger. He's not going to chop Harry into
pieces as Harry imagines doing to him.)

Setting aside Kneasy's very important point that Snape is very likely
acting under cover whereas to Harry it's all real, we shouldn't forget
that Snape has tried several times to save Harry--trying to keep him
away from Fluffy, to counter Quirrell's jinx on his broom, to keep him
away from the supposed murderer sirius and the actual werewolf Lupin,
(If he were deeply horrible, would he have conjured stretchers and
floated HRH and Sirius back to the castle after HRH had stunned him?),
and to send a rescue party to the MoM?

Look at the context of this quotation. It's made in 1999, when JKR
still wants us to have our suspicions of Snape. It's made in response
to "Who is your *favorite character* other than Harry?" And it's
probably also made (correct me if I'm wrong) to an audience of children.

Contrast the later quotations, which always say to keep an eye on
Snape because there's more to him than meets the eye. This "deeply
horrible person" is trusted by Dumbledore and, as far as we can tell
from the evidence, working hand in glove with him. Yet Dumbledore,
according to JKR, is the epitome of goodness. (That, too, may be
somewhat misleading--it's not equivalent to "Dumbledore is perfect.")

I'm going to make an assertion that I'm fairly certain that not
everyone will agree with, but it's based on long experience
interpreting literary works. The author is not always absolutely right
about his or her own creations. Yes, JKR determines who lives or dies,
who marries whom, what careers the survivors will have, whether and in
what form Sirius will reappear, whether Snape and Percy are redeemed,
 and other "factual" matters. But once the characters and events have
been released to the world in print, they acquire an identity of their
own which extends beyond the intention of the author. (She herself has
said that certain characters, including Snape, grew beyond her
original conception of them.) Authors are not always fully aware of or
don't always fully realize their own intentions. Like any object of
art, the book is subject to interpretation and can be read and
understood in ways unanticipated by the author. That does *not* mean
that any interpretation is valid. We can't argue, for example, that
Lupin isn't *really* a werewolf or that Crouch!Moody was really
McGonagall. You can't disregard the established facts of a book, but
you can indicate places where the narrator is unreliable and others
where she may or may not be. 

My point is that even a statement like "Snape is a deeply horrible
person," which may seem unequivocal, is subject to interpretation.
Both the context and JKR's possible intentions need to be considered.
I, for one, place more weight on her later statements which ask us to
keep an eye on him. She expects readers not to like Snape *and* she
expects them to be surprised by his behavior in Book 7. That, to me,
suggests that the "horrible" Snape will do something good, that he
will be redeemed. Unlike Voldemort, for whom there is no hope, Snape
has not yet lost his soul to evil. "Deeply horrible" or not, we have
seen that he is capable of helping the side of good and (evidently)
capable of sincerely repenting his association with the Death Eaters.
Let's judge him, then, based on his own words and actions in the books
(always considering that they're reported from Harry's point of view)
and not from a statement lightly made in a 1999 interview.

Carol




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 23:10:11 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 23:10:11 -0000
Subject: Snape tipping off the wrong side (was: Snape outing Harry as Parselmouth)
In-Reply-To: <c49qcf+7ard@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4cuoj+g7u9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94574

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at m...>
wrote:
> x 
> > 
> > Susan again:
> > Yes, good question to ask!  I have no idea which--if any--of the 
> > staff would have reason to know.  I *suspect* that anyone in the 
> > Order would know, but that's just DD & McGonagall [and former 
> > teachers Lupin and Moody--well, not that he really got to teach!] 
> > that we know of, right?
> > 
> > Hmmm.  If most of the staff *doesn't* know, then it's interesting 
> > that we haven't seen his favoritism remarked upon by staff....  [I 
> > know, Snape defenders may tell me that it's because only Harry 
> > perceives the favoritism. :-)]
> > 
> 
> 
> Potioncat: 
> Of course it's because only Harry percieves the favoritism!
> Actually, Quirrell mentions that Snape made himself unpopular when 
> he reffed the one quidditch game.  So I'm sure his general approach 
> is well known by the teachers. And most likely commented on.
> 
> Now, if Harry will just hide in the wardrobe again so we can hear a 
> few conversations.


Maybe the favoritism isn't reflected in the students' final marks.
We'd have parents complaining if they thought their children didn't
get the marks they deserve. Instead, we hear *Draco* complaining that
*Hermione* is the teacher's favorite because she gets better marks
than he does. Remember, too, that he didn't show anyone the grade he
received on the Potions essay that Snape marked to OWL standards and
that Hermione didn't complain about her mark. She got the message that
they needed to study harder.

IMO, Snape's favoritism involves his treatment of particular students,
a few unfair advantages for the Slytherin Quidditch team, and the
*appearance* of giving unfair marks (grades). But I don't think he
could get away with giving the students end-of-term grades other than
those the students deserve. If that were the case, Harry and Neville
would still be in first-year Potions.

Carol




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 23:32:14 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 23:32:14 -0000
Subject: Why DD might not want Snape for DADA job
In-Reply-To: <c4a14d+jnpj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4d01u+agt8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94575

> bboy_mn:
> 
> Notice that the DADA teacher curse doesn't begin until Harry arrives
> at school, and I very much suspect that once Harry leaves school the
> curse will be lifted.
> 
> It's not so much that the job is really curse as it is that Harry's
> presencs at the school is creating trying and difficult times. Harry's
> re-entering the wizard world, also coinsides with Voldemort becoming
> more active which in turn leads to Voldemort's eventual rebirth.
<snip>

Carol:
I'm not going to consider the question of whether the job is really
jinxed, but doesn't Percy tell Harry about the jinx *rumor* in SS/PS?
If so, the rumor precedes Harry's entrance to Hogwarts. It appears
that Quirrell was teaching DADA before he went on leave for a year
(and came back as the servant of Voldemort), but what happened to the
person who taught DADA while Quirrell was away? Maybe that person
suffered some horrible fate, which started the rumor. If that teacher
were still alive and healthy, surely Dumbledore would have hired him
or her instead of Lockhart to replace Quirrell.

Carol




From starropal at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 30 23:49:11 2004
From: starropal at hotmail.com (Star Opal)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 17:49:11 -0600
Subject: FILK - Walk Through the Door
Message-ID: <BAY17-F54Wqr2f9hYDk000268d9@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94576

That Scar With Feeling by Star Opal; filked from Joss Whedon's "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer: Once More With Feeling".

Walk Through the Door
To the tune of _Walk Through the Fire_

TO SCENE: Order of the Phoenix; Chapter 33, Flight and Fight.
Harry and Hermione are left alone in the Forbidden Forest.

Harry:
I see the vision and its haunting me
I look into it and there's Black
So what's the deal?
My scar it burns and reels
I'm gonna get him back
Now through the haze he calls to me
To get him out is my one aim
To save the day
I have to find a way
And I'll take all the blame

So I will walk
Through the door
I think that's what I've earned
I will walk
Through the door
And let it...

*Scene changes to number twelve Grimmauld Place*

Sirius:
This pain I bear is maiming me
Snape is laughing I've no doubt
Can't stand this sty!
Keep me here, let them try!
Me they won't go without

*Voldemort from where ever he is*

Voldemort:
'Cause he is
Drawn to the door		                Sirius:
Some people... 			We...

Both:
Will never learn
And he will
Walk through the door
And let it...

*Hermione worries for Harry as she decides to go with him*

Hermione:
Will he charge into this danger?
Are we leaving Hogwarts forever?
Is poor Harry too far gone to care?

*Back in Umbridge's office...*

Ron:
What if Harry can't defeat - *It*
Ginny:
Ronniekins is right, we're needed
Or we could just watch Draco glare

Ron, Ginny, Luna, and Neville leave the office:
We'll see it through
It's what the
Army's here to do
So we will
Walk through the door

Harry:
So one by one, they come to me
But my friends have never faced Vold
But why I'm closed				Luna: Why can't we face him together?
Not one among can know
And so I just seem cold

Ginny:						Voldemort:
He came from the grave much graver		So one by one they come to me
Sirius:				 	My lovely vision as their guide
Vold'll find him, try to kill him
Luna:				 	Harry:
Everything is turning out so dark		                Going through the motions
Sirius:					Rubbing at my scar
No, Ill find him, then Ill save him
Neville:					Voldemort:
I think this line is mostly fillin'		                They go to find
Hermione:					My Illusion of mind
Isn't the Ministry of Magic far?

Harry:
These endless days
Are finally ending in a maze 			Get the Prophecy!

All but Voldemort:
We are going
Through the door
The point of no return
So we will
Walk through the door
And let it...

Turn!
Let it turn
Let it turn
Let it turn!

_________________________________________________________________
Get tax tips, tools and access to IRS forms  all in one place at MSN Money! 
http://moneycentral.msn.com/tax/home.asp




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 23:50:59 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 23:50:59 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c4a2bp+fv6l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4d153+fiic@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94577

-Carol <snipped by Joe> wrote:
Meanwhile Lupin is thrown a curve. The boggart is not a DE but a
professor, and he has no choice but to help Neville find a way to 
make
his boggart ridiculous. It would have been better for staff 
relations
to let him use his grandmother instead, but Lupin probably didn't 
want
to undermine Neville's relationship with his grandmother, either.
<snipped by Joe>
> 
Joe wrote:
One thing that I think keeps getting missed is that "Neville's 
afraid of what Neville's afraid." I don't think anyone can convince 
Neville (or anyone) to be less afraid of X and more afraid of Y.
Neville's boggart takes the shape--for whatever reason--of Snape and 
not his Gran, not the Lestranges, not LV. 
 
It is what it is.

Carol:
Oy! You're right about Neville's gran and about Boggart's reflecting
actual fears. But my point was that Snape may have assumed that the
boggart would be a DE (as IMO it logically should have been, but fear
isn't logical) and warned Lupin so that Lupin could avoid having such
a fearsome boggart appearing to Neville and his classmates. That's why
Lupin *asked* him what he was most afraid of rather than merely having
him take his turn. Had it been a DE, he might have decided to work
with Neville privately just as he did with Harry (who was not even
allowed to face his boggart with his classmates). Instead, Neville's
boggart turns out to be the very person who had just tried to warn him
about Neville's potentially disturbing boggart. (Poor Snape!) But
Lupin is now stuck dealing with a boggart that looks like his
colleague and has no choice but to make him look ridiculous or leave
Neville unable to deal with a boggart. I'm trying to say that the way
I read it, neither Snape nor Lupin is at fault in this scene. They're
both trying--one covertly, the other overtly--to help Neville to deal
with his boggart.

Carol




From elizabeth1603 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 23:58:38 2004
From: elizabeth1603 at yahoo.com (elizabeth1603 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 23:58:38 -0000
Subject: Why DD might not want Snape for DADA job
In-Reply-To: <c4d01u+agt8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4d1je+hb9s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94578

 bboy_mn:

<snip>
> > It's not so much that the job is really curse as it is that 
Harry's
> > presencs at the school is creating trying and difficult times. 
Harry's
> > re-entering the wizard world, also coinsides with Voldemort 
becoming
> > more active which in turn leads to Voldemort's eventual rebirth.
> <snip>
> 
> Carol:
<snip>
doesn't Percy tell Harry about the jinx *rumor* in SS/PS?
> If so, the rumor precedes Harry's entrance to Hogwarts. It appears
> that Quirrell was teaching DADA before he went on leave for a year
> (and came back as the servant of Voldemort), but what happened to 
the
> person who taught DADA while Quirrell was away? Maybe that person
> suffered some horrible fate, which started the rumor. If that 
teacher
> were still alive and healthy, surely Dumbledore would have hired him
> or her instead of Lockhart to replace Quirrell.

Elli:
You make some good points, Carol. Add to that the fact that Quirrell 
was quite loopy when he returned, and you have a full-blown jinx 
rumor. Notice, however, that the reason Quirrell appeared nuts is the 
encounter with Voldemort, which, we suppose, happened because Harry 
was coming of age. Perhapps bboy_mn has a point.




From drednort at alphalink.com.au  Wed Mar 31 00:11:40 2004
From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 10:11:40 +1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Hermione Supposed to be a Genius?
In-Reply-To: <987458236.20040330121323@msn.com>
References: <4069DB4D.1137.8C0A80@localhost>
Message-ID: <406A995C.31425.3729521@localhost>

No: HPFGUIDX 94579

On 30 Mar 2004 at 12:13, Susanne wrote:


> Hi,
> 
> Tuesday, March 30, 2004, 2:40:45 AM, Shaun wrote:
> 
> > The first if less certain - but her memory for what she has read
> > seems to be fairly close to photographic -
> 
> I've always thought that Hermione must have a photographic
> memory (which makes it very easy for her to remember facts
> she may have only read about once, and to remember
> incantations, potion's ingredients, spells...), but I've
> never been sure if this is a sign of superior intelligence
> in itself.

It is, and it isn't.

In psychometric terms, memory is an important component of 
intelligence. Basically, almost by definition, a person with an 
excellent memory *is* highly intelligent - however while it's 
common for such a person to also have other highly intelligent 
characteristics, it isn't absolutely universal. It's very close 
though.
 
> I'm sure it's a great boost in general, because she seems to
> be the only one able to do spells on the first try, while others
> mispronounce or leave out words, and it helps her to have
> access to a whole bunch of spells that others (incl. Harry)
> would have to spend a lot of time studying and repeating, to
> make sure they aren't forgotten down the road.
> 
> Hermione certainly seems very intelligent and inquisitive,
> and has the lack of social graces that's sometimes
> attributed to geniuses (is this really typical for very
> intelligent people, or just one of those generalizations?).

This is complex. *Generally* speaking the highly intelligent do not 
lack social skills. In fact, if anything, their natural social 
skills tend to be highly developed.

*However*, this is not always apparent. With highly gifted 
children, they can often appear to be socially inept when in fact 
they are precisely the opposite.

Consider a profoundly gifted 5 year old - a child with a mental age 
of 10. That mental age affects all sorts of things - including the 
child's interests, and some areas of their social skills. If this 
child has the social maturity of an average 8 year old say, coupled 
with the typical interests of an average 9 year old - how easy is 
it likely to be for them to make friends in a class of 5 years 
olds? The other children are unlikely to be interested in the same 
complex games that the gifted child is. They are unlikely to share 
the same interests - consider the 5 year old who has read all the 
Harry Potter books - and wants to play Harry Potter. How many other 
kids in the class are going to be at their level? Is the child 
socially inept? No, they are socially advanced - but an adult 
looking at the class is likely to see all the other children 
playing happily together - and assume there's something lacking in 
the child who sits apart.

And as time goes on - being less likely to have many friends, that 
child has less opportunity to develop common social skills. And may 
find that there's no real need for them. The situation can be even 
worse if the child is teased or bullied because of their 
intelligence - which does happen. Why would you want to be friends 
with those who torment you all the time?

I don't think Hermione really lacks social graces. When she sees 
the point of social interactions, she engages in them. But she has 
other things that she gives a higher priority to. That's not 
uncommon. 

> But what I've been curious about (and not just in regards to
> Hermione) is, if there are people with photographic memory,
> who *don't* appear to make good use of it in their lives.

Absolutely - natural abilities, no matter how spectacular or useful 
are just a starting point. If you want to use them in any real way, 
you still need to put some effort into it. 

 
> Private answers would be fine, since this isn't necessarily
> HP related.

I think I'll keep this post onlist - because I was thinking of 
Hermione as I wrote it, and described the social interactions.


Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia




From DarkChocoholic1 at aol.com  Tue Mar 30 22:03:10 2004
From: DarkChocoholic1 at aol.com (athenaartemis04)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 22:03:10 -0000
Subject: Why DD might not want Snape for DADA job
Message-ID: <c4cqqu+n3h7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94580

Responding to the various posts, I refer everyone to the following 
excerpted quote of JKR which can be found in:

www.The_Leaky_Cauldron.org
Royal Albert Hall Appearance
June 26 2003
NEW Transcript by Debbie Hill - GREAT Job!
Q&A with Stephen Fry

"SF: Hello Jackson, hurrah. And lets have a look and see what your 
question was shall we?"

"JL: Prof Snape has always wanted to be the defence against the dark 
arts teacher. In book 5 he still doesn't get the job Why does 
Professor Dumbledore not allow him to be the defence against the dark 
arts teacher?"

"JKR: <sighs> That is an excellent question and the reason is that, I 
have to be careful what I say here, the reason is that to answer it 
fully would give and awful lot away about the remaining two books but 
when Professor Dumbledore took Professor Snape on to the staff and 
Professor Snape said I'd like to teach defence against the darks arts 
please and Professor Dumbledore felt that that might bring out the 
worst in Professor Snape"

"<laughs> Somewhat"

"JKR: So he said I think we'll let you teach potions and see how you 
get along there"

JKR's response confirmed exactly my supposition with regard to
why DD has not assigned Snape as DADA professor!(So nice to be
"right"!lol:)

Athena Artemis






From rhobbs at intergate.com  Tue Mar 30 22:38:26 2004
From: rhobbs at intergate.com (rhabenh)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 22:38:26 -0000
Subject: Underage magic enforcement
In-Reply-To: <c4cn7t+uqjr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4cst2+vos9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94581

 Mike:

> Did anyone else even see Harry use Cruciatus on Bellatrix? I know 
> Fudge and a bunch of others appeared during/after the battle between 
> Dumbledore, but I believe there was a lack of witnesses to Harry 
> using an unforgiveable curse. I just don't think Bellatrix is going 
> to walk into Auror HQ and try to press charges.

I don't think anyone saw him do it other than Bellatrix, but who saw
him cast the patronus at the beginning of the book?  Dudley was there
but his eyes were closed, so he technically didn't see it.  Also there
were no magical people there when Dobby floated the pudding, yet he
got the notice in minutes.  Maybe they are only watched while at home?

Robin





From k_tanne at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Mar 30 23:02:27 2004
From: k_tanne at yahoo.co.uk (Kelly)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 00:02:27 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ottery St-Catchpole and Wizard War II
References: <c4c1kd+37si@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <011501c416ab$138071a0$3b867ad5@D55ZFV0J>

No: HPFGUIDX 94582


Bonny:

I am reluctant to theorize more without some sort of list  reaction
to build on, but it seems to me that JKR has laid the map very well
 for something big to happen in Ottery-St.Catchpole.

Mike:

 (Snip)
Ok non-romantically now, I've just jumped on the Harry/Luna ship of
 late. Yes, I believe you're right. In GoF some of the Fawcett's are
mentioned during the Yule Ball chapters. The fact that 3/4 of the
 families right now are anti-voldemort (Fawcetts yet to be known,
Lovegood's nominally anti-voldie, but definately not pro-voldie) it
would make a good target for a Death Eater strike. It's true that
 we've heard the name many times and still have only seen the Burrow.
Until this post I didn't even remember that the Diggorys/Lovegoods/Fawcetts
lived there as well.


Bonny:

<snip>
So there we have realtion to Weasels (the Weasleys); badgers, ie
Hufflepuffs, ie Cedric; ferrets ie Malfoy the amazing bouncing
ferret; Lutra (sounds a little like Luna); otters ie Hermione... of
course all that is speculation...

Anyone else find these connections interesting?



Kelly:

I'm finding this very interesting. Is there any chance that 'Fawcett' is
related to 'Fawkes'? I dont know much about the structure of language and
would love to hear an opinion more informed than mine!

Kelly








From p_implies_q at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 23:02:58 2004
From: p_implies_q at yahoo.com (p_implies_q)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 23:02:58 -0000
Subject: Why DD might not want Snape for DADA job
In-Reply-To: <c4c6le+2hl2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4cub2+5knl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94583

<snip>

Deb in NJ wrote:

------------Um, but he's ALREADY a professor. I don't see why parents 
> would object any more strongly to a criminal teaching their children 
> DADA rather than potions. Either way, there's still a former criminal 
> teaching the kids! Maybe it's something as simple as that Snape's 
> strengths lie in potions, regardless of whether he'd rather they were 
> in DADA. 



Alice:
I think the idea was that if Dumbledore gives Snape the DADA 
position, people would want to know what qualified him for that 
post in particular.

I remember hearing someone, somewhere say something (yes, 
very specific, I know) about a JKR interview wherein she 
mentioned something about Dumbledore believing that the 
DADA position 'would bring out the worst' in Snape . . .  Does 
anyone know if any such thing has actually  been said by JKR?


Cheers,
Alice





From willowsgreyghost at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 23:30:28 2004
From: willowsgreyghost at yahoo.com (Vickey)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 15:30:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's house
In-Reply-To: <c4ciaa+8ru6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040330233028.41801.qmail@web14807.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94584


Alla wrote:
> I don't know. I think no more inconceivable than Luna "joining a gang 
> of Gryffs", because her classmates bully her. :o)

Potioncat:
>join a gang of 
>Gryffindors or did she become part of the DA?  I know >she ends up at 
>the MoM battle, but other than that time was she really >just with 
>the Gryffindors?  

 

I don't know about Luna, but here's my 2 knuts worth.  I think that Severus was a Slytherin.  I would think that not only would true Slytherin parents not want someone that was not a former Slytherin as HoH, but I would think that DD has chosen former students from the houses to be the HOH's...look at the others, McGonagall is prime example of Gryffindor, Flitwick is perfect for Ravenclaw, and with what little is shown for Hufflepuffs and Professor Sprout, how could you doubt that she was a Hufflepuff at school?  So that said, Severus is also a perfect example for Slytherin...he has the thirst to prove himself, and given not only his feelings towards James, but what we see concerning his father, he probably feels that he has a lot to prove, especially to his father.  I started to add that he is probably pure-blood and I still think that he probably is, but I started to think that this may help explain why he hated James so much....maybe he was abused because he wasn't pure-blood...maybe his father didn't realize that his mother wasn't pure-blood and took it out on Severus.   And then seeing perfect, happy James would only serve to rub in the fact that he would never be good enough for his father.  

Sirius....Severus....*sigh*




---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 31 00:24:35 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 00:24:35 -0000
Subject: From JK Rowling World Book Day Chat - 3/4/04
In-Reply-To: <c49nj8+al9c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4d343+bivm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94585

>Ally wrote:: 
> <small snip> When Snape goes to "rescue" Harry from Sirius, he yells
at Harry and says something to the extent of: I tried to warn your
father about Sirius and he should have been grateful, but he refused
to believe me and now he's dead and you're going to wind up the same
way. [paraphrasing there just a bit]
 
If Snape thought James wound up dead b/c he didn't listen to Snape 
about Sirius, it makes sense to me that he tried to warn them at 
Godric's Hollow.  What else could it have been?  Maybe Snape got 
there just before Voldie and James sent him packing?

Carol:
I haven't checked the Shrieking Shack passage to see whether I agree
with your interpretaion of Snape's words, but I don't see how he could
have been at Godric's Hollow unless Peter personally had told him the
Secret. (He couldn't have learned it secondhand from LV or anyone
else.) And if Peter had told him, he would know that Sirius was *not*
a murderer or a traitor. In my reading of PoA, he doesn't know any
such thing. All he knows is that Lupin is a werewolf and Sirius's
former friend (whom he suspects of helping Sirius get inside Hogwarts).

You could be right that Snape tried to warn James about Sirius (whom
he wrongly suspected of being the spy) and that James rebuffed him,
but it doesn't necessarily follow that Snape was at Godric's Hollow.
(I've already presented my reasons for thinking he was already at
Hogwarts. My point here is simply that he couldn't have known that the
Potters were at Godric's Hollow (or if he somehow found that out, he
wouldn't have been able to see James to speak with him because of the
Fidelius charm).

Carol




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 31 00:44:42 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 00:44:42 -0000
Subject: Ollivander a Dragon Slayer?
In-Reply-To: <c4a71d+t1et@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4d49q+edt2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94586

Chelle wrote:
> Ollivander had always been a person that has gotten my attention. He
> makes all the wands for everyone, we know that. He collects the
> finest things for his materials: Phoenix feathers, unicorn hair,
> dragon heartstring....
> 
> Dragon heartstring?
> 
> OK, Fawkes is bound to shed feathers from time to time. I'm sure
> others like him do the same. 
> 
> Unicorn hair might be difficult, considering they don't like men.
> <snip>
> But dragon heartstring? Is Ollivander a dragonslayer?
> 
> My ex had this theory that Ollivander and the original Ollivander on
> his sign are one and the same.
> 
> Any thoughts?
>

As you indicate, it's not necessary to kill a unicorn or a phoenix to
obtain the magical core for the wand. Also, of course, unicorns are
gentle and it's a crime (or worse) to slay one; Phoenixes are
beneficial and it would be stupid (and possibly a crime) to kill one.
Dragons, OTOH, are extremely dangerous and under certain
circumstances, it would be necessary for dragon handlers like Charlie
Weasley to kill one, in which case, the dragon's blood (which has
twelve uses), the heartstring, and whatever else had magical
properties would probably be sold to wandmakers, potion makers,
healers, etc. I don't see any need for the highly talented (I would
say brilliant) Ollivander to risk his neck killing dragons.

As for Mr. Ollivander having been alive since 382 B.C., Nicholas
Flamel needed the elixir of life to live to 666 (or whatever his age
was at the end of SS/PS). Also, the sign in Mr. Ollivander's shop
window says "Makers of fine wands since 382 B.C." (SS Am. ed. 82) so
there must have been more than one Ollivander. (In fact, I hope Mr. O.
has a son or daughter to keep the business going after he dies since
he seems to be the only wandmaker worth his salt in Britain.)

Carol, who is glad that the WW hasn't started using "B.C.E." or "C.E."
yet!




From saitaina at frontiernet.net  Wed Mar 31 00:46:12 2004
From: saitaina at frontiernet.net (Saitaina)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 16:46:12 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Underage magic enforcement
References: <c4cst2+vos9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001601c416b9$91174a40$01fea8c0@domain.invalid>

No: HPFGUIDX 94587

Robin wrote:

<Also there
were no magical people there when Dobby floated the pudding, yet he
got the notice in minutes.  Maybe they are only watched while at home?>

That's what I always assumed.  I figured the spell that watched over them was lifted
when they entered the train and re activated when they left Hogwarts again, until
their seventeen.

And I assume it's a spell due to the large number of students.  They probably have a
little alarm system that alerts when a student uses magick when they're not supposed
to so that no one is 'watching' them beyond the spell.

Saitaina
****
Relying on the government to protect your privacy is like asking a peeping tom to
install your window blinds.-- John Perry Barlow

http://www.livejournal.com/users/saitaina

"No, one day I'm going to look back on all this and plow face-first into a tree
because I was looking the wrong bloody way. And I'll still be having a better day
than I am today."




From nkafkafi at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 31 01:11:23 2004
From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 01:11:23 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Harry_enjoying_his_friends=92_pain_(was:_Harry's_disposition)?=
In-Reply-To: <c4a0ag+r3vo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4d5rr+d8pf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94588

As often happens, this thread (in its different names) took my 
original post to very different directions than I originally 
intended, but thanks everybody who contributed (especially the 
Sergeant Majorette for that insight into Hermione's PMS). Here is my 
second take at it, trying to clarify my point.

The issue that interests me is not exactly Harry's anger (justified 
or not, teen angst or not). In fact, forget the anger thing for a 
moment. It is a good subject for the "Harry's disposition" thread, 
but here it is not very relevant. It actually might be a big smoke 
screen that JKR has set to disguise the *real* issue. The real issue 
IMO is the fact that in OotP, Harry takes pleasure in his friends' 
pain.

The question if we all do it is also, IMO, not very relevant here. 
What *is* relevant is that Harry does it at least twice in OotP 
(quotes below) but he had *never* done it before OotP. At least I 
can't find any canon for it. Not during his quarrel with Hermione in 
PoA and not during his quarrel with Ron in GoF. The closest I could 
find is in GoF when Harry chucks a  "Potter Stinks" badge at Ron, but 
this is still a long way from feeling "deep satisfaction" at your 
friend's hurt.

Add to this that in the MoM battle, Harry fails to crucio Bellatrix 
because, according to her, he is only feeling "righteous anger", and 
is unable to actually enjoy hurting somebody, even to his friend's 
murderer. But he *was* enjoying hurting Ron and Hermione at least 
twice in OotP. In fact, Bella had pinpointed exactly the distinction 
I'm clumsily trying to make here: Before OotP Harry was sometimes 
(rarely) feeling "righteous anger" at his friends, but in OotP he 
enjoys hurting them.

I'm not one of those who believe that every word JKR writes contains 
some hidden meaning, but when she repeats a certain theme three or 
four times in one book, that's when my radar screen starts bip-bip-
bip in earnest. Particularly since this issue was not resolved by the 
end of OotP. DD didn't mention it in he's end-of-the-year-talk with 
Harry. This means that it is likely to unfold in Book 6, whether it 
is channeling LV or Harry's own emotions. But how??? Any ideas?




For those who have difficulties going up-thread for the original 
post, I paste again the quotes and also add Bella's fine distinction: 

---------------------------------------------
OotP (US), Ch. 4, p. 63:
'He seemed to think it was best,' said Hermione rather
breathlessly. 'Dumbledore, I mean.'
'Right,' said Harry. He noticed that her hands, too, bore the
marks of Hedwig's beak and found that he was not at all sorry.

OotP (US), Ch. 5, p. 91:
'Harry'll tell me and Hermione everything you say anyway!' said Ron
hotly. 'Won't ? won't you?' he added uncertainly, meeting Harry's
eyes.
For a split second, Harry considered telling Ron that he wouldn't
tell him a single word, that he could try a taste of being kept in
the dark and see how he liked it. But the nasty impulse vanished as
they looked at each other.
'Course I will,' Harry said.

OotP (US), Ch. 12, p. 235
'Poisonous toadstools don't change their spots,' said Ron
sagely. 'Anyway, I've always thought Dumbledore was cracked to trust
Snape. Where's the evidence he ever really stopped working for You-
Know-Who?'
'I think Dumbledore's probably got plenty of evidence, even if he
doesn't share it with you, Ron,' snapped Hermione.
'Oh, shut up, the pair of you,' said Harry heavily, as Ron opened
his mouth to argue back. Hermione and Ron both froze, looking angry
and offended. 'Can't you give it a rest?' said Harry. 'You're always
having a go at each other, it's driving me mad.' And abandoning his
shepherd's pie, he swung his schoolbag back over his shoulder and
left them sitting there.
He walked up the marble staircase two steps at a time, past the
many students hurrying towards lunch. The anger that had just flared
so unexpectedly still blazed inside him, and the vision of Ron and
Hermione's shocked faces afforded him a sense of deep satisfaction.
Serve them right, he thought, why can't they give it a rest . . .
bickering all the time . . . it's enough to drive anyone up the
wall . . .

OotP (US), Ch. 30, p. 681
'You can't tell me you've stopped having funny dreams,' Hermione said
now, 'because Ron told me you were muttering in your sleep again last
night.'
Harry threw Ron a furious look. Ron had the grace to look ashamed
of himself.
'You were only muttering a bit,' he mumbled
apologetically. 'Something about "just a bit further".'
'I dreamed I was watching you lot play Quidditch,' Harry lied
brutally. 'I was trying to get you to stretch out a bit further to
grab the Quaffle.'
Ron's ears went red. Harry felt a kind of vindictive pleasure; he
had not, of course, dreamed anything of the sort.

OotP (US), Ch. 36, p. 810
    'Never used an Unforgivable Curse before, have you, boy?' she 
yelled. She had abandoned her baby voice now. 'You need to mean them, 
Potter! You need to really want to cause pain ? to enjoy it ? 
righteous anger won't hurt me for long ? I'll show you how it is 
done, shall I? I'll give you a lesson ? '
---------------------------------------------  



Neri  





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 31 01:18:52 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 01:18:52 -0000
Subject: Ottery St-Catchpole and Wizard War II
In-Reply-To: <c4a79h+b2kq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4d69s+t642@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94589

Bonny wrote:
>     Ottery St-Catchpole, the Weasleys home village, has been 
> mentioned by name several times throughout the HP books. It's 
> wizarding inhabitants were also stated quite clearly in GoF; The 
> Weasleys (obviously), The Diggorys, The Lovegoods, and the Fawcetts. 
>    
> Obviously three of these four familys have already played a major 
> part in Wizard War II - the Weasleys have been involved from the
very  begenning, the Diggorys lost a son to the cause, and the
Lovegoods have made their obvious contributions (ie the article and
the events at the ministry of magic in OoTP). The only family we have
not heard from much as of yet are the Fawcetts, who, IMO, are being
set up to become major characters, as they have been mentioned many
times. 
> 
> So far as I can tell, there must be two Fawcett girls (at least) one 
> in Ravenclaw (who tried to cross Dumbledores age line and came out 
> with a beard) and one in Hufflepuff (who was blasted out of a rose 
> bush by Snape). I believe I have heard them mentioned before as
well, but I don't have time to re-read the series right now and make sure.
><snip>
 maybe it is with one of these girls that Harry will have a 
> little romance; we already know that Ms. Fawcett of Hufflepuff isn't 
> opposed to a little kissing hehehe. <snip>

Carol:
I like your reasoning and agree that we'll be seeing Miss Fawcett in
Book 6, but I think there's only one of her. The girl in the
rosebushes in GoF is a Ravenclaw (adventurously kissing a Hufflepuff boy):

"Ten points from Ravenclaw, Fawcett!" Snape snarled as a girl ran past
him. "And ten points from Hufflepuff, too, Stebbins!" (GoF 426).

This is almost certainly the same girl who tried to overstep the age
line and earned a beard for doing so. I'm guessing she's the same girl
who got a nosebleed in the duel scene in CoS (mentioned by another
poster to this thread), though her house isn't mentioned there so we
don't know for sure. 

This girl could be the same age as Harry (Gryffindor and Ravenclaw
don't have any classes together in Harry's year, which would explain
why we haven't seen much of her), but since she's not in the Sorting
Hat scene in SS/PS, I'm guessing she's in a different year. (True, the
Sorting Hat scene jumps from Bulstrode to Finch-Fletchley, but I don't
think she'd have been omitted if she were going to play a role later.)
She appears first in CoS, so she has to be at least Ginny's age, and
she was too young to cross the age line, so she can't be more than a
few months older than Fred and George. If she's going to be appear in
Book 6, she's probably a year younger than the twins, which would make
her a seventh year in Book 6 (a year ahead of Harry). 

I don't think Miss Fawcett will be a love interest for Harry (though
she'd be a lot more fun than Cho), but she sounds like just the person
to switch houses in Book 6 (Ravenclaw to Gryffindor). I, for one, am
curious about her. Too bad Harry isn't!

Carol




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Mar 31 01:20:33 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 01:20:33 -0000
Subject: Why DD might not want Snape for DADA job
In-Reply-To: <c4cub2+5knl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4d6d1+108i8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94590


> Alice:
> I think the idea was that if Dumbledore gives Snape the DADA 
> position, people would want to know what qualified him for that 
> post in particular.
> 
> I remember hearing someone, somewhere say something 
(yes, 
> very specific, I know) about a JKR interview wherein she 
> mentioned something about Dumbledore believing that the 
> DADA position 'would bring out the worst' in Snape . . .  Does 
> anyone know if any such thing has actually  been said by JKR?

It's the Albert Hall appearance:

http://www.mugglenet.com/jkr-royalalbert.shtml

JACKSON LONG:
Professor Snape has always wanted to be Defence Against the 
Dark Arts teacher. In book five he doesn't get the job. Why doesn't 
Professor Dumbledore let him be the DADA teacher? 

JK Rowling:
That is an excellent question and the reason is
 I have to be 
careful
 not to say too much. However, when Professor 
Dumbledore took Professor Snape onto the staff and Professor 
Snape said he'd like to teach Defence Against the Dark Arts 
please and Professor Dumbledore felt that it might bring out the 
worst in Professor Snape, so Dumbledore said: "I think we'll let 
you teach potions and see how you get along there.

Pippin
"It is dangerous to study too deeply the arts of the Enemy, for 
good or ill." --Elrond (Tolkien, LOTR)




From nkafkafi at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 31 01:28:24 2004
From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 01:28:24 -0000
Subject: Ollivanders' origin (was: Ollivander a Dragon Slayer?)
In-Reply-To: <c4d49q+edt2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4d6ro+36d5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94591

Carol:
<snip>
As for Mr. Ollivander having been alive since 382 B.C., Nicholas
Flamel needed the elixir of life to live to 666 (or whatever his age
was at the end of SS/PS). Also, the sign in Mr. Ollivander's shop
window says "Makers of fine wands since 382 B.C." (SS Am. ed. 82) so
there must have been more than one Ollivander. (In fact, I hope Mr. O.
has a son or daughter to keep the business going after he dies since
he seems to be the only wandmaker worth his salt in Britain.)


Neri:
I wonder what country did the Ollivanders came from? Britain wasn't 
very civilized in the forth century B.C., and "Ollivander" doesn't 
sound British. Is it the same as "oleander"? To my knowledge oleander 
is the Latin name for a bush with beautiful but poisonous flowers, 
which is common in the Mediterranean.





From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 31 01:29:41 2004
From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 01:29:41 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c4d153+fiic@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4d6u5+jo4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94592

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" 
<justcarol67 at y...> wrote:

> Oy! You're right about Neville's gran and about Boggart's 
reflecting
> actual fears.

Being right is a sill fetish of mine. :-)

> But my point was that Snape may have assumed that the
> boggart would be a DE (as IMO it logically should have been, but 
fear
> isn't logical) and warned Lupin so that Lupin could avoid having 
such
> a fearsome boggart appearing to Neville and his classmates.

This is the actual quote from PoA:

<<He got to his feet and strode past the class, his black robes 
billowing behind him. At the doorway he turned on his heel and 
said, "Possibly no one's warned you, Lupin, but this class contains 
Neville Longbottom. I would advise you not to entrust him with 
anything difficult. Not unless Miss Granger is hissing instructions 
in his ear."

Neville went scarlet. Harry glared at Snape; it was bad enough that 
he bullied Neville in his own classes, let alone doing it in front 
of other teachers.>>

While your hypothesis is certainly possible, IMO, I consider it 
unlikely. Lupin had not addressed the subject of the day's exercise 
when Snape exited.

> That's why
> Lupin *asked* him what he was most afraid of rather than merely 
having
> him take his turn.

While that's possible, I think that he did so to illustrate, in a 
step-by-step manner, how a boggart ought be faced.

> Had it been a DE, he might have decided to work
> with Neville privately just as he did with Harry (who was not even
> allowed to face his boggart with his classmates).

But in order for this to be the case, not only must've Snape made a 
veiled warning, but Lupin must have also understood it and 
extrapolated therefrom that Nevilles boggart would be a DE. Notice 
his "2nd choice" was (presumably) his Gran, not a DE either, so said 
extrapolation would have been way off base, as opposed to Lupin's 
guess about HP, which was only mildly wrong (HP thought briefly 
about LV at first, but then the Dementor sprang to the fore.)

> Instead, Neville's
> boggart turns out to be the very person who had just tried to warn 
him
> about Neville's potentially disturbing boggart. (Poor Snape!) But
> Lupin is now stuck dealing with a boggart that looks like his
> colleague and has no choice but to make him look ridiculous or 
leave
> Neville unable to deal with a boggart. I'm trying to say that the 
way
> I read it, neither Snape nor Lupin is at fault in this scene. 
They're
> both trying--one covertly, the other overtly--to help Neville to 
deal
> with his boggart.

I agree with the ultimate assessment, that neither Lupin nor Snape 
were at fault, but for me the notion that Snape was attempting 
covertly to help Neville remains in the realm of somewhat improbable 
conjecture.

-Joe in SoFla




From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 31 01:43:38 2004
From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 01:43:38 -0000
Subject: Life-saving bonds
In-Reply-To: <c4cje8+q30@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4d7oa+3l3j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94593

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" 
<justcarol67 at y...> wrote:
> > Harry and Ron are discussing Snape and what happened to Mr. 
Crouch....
> > 
> > "Maybe-hang on-how fast d'you reckon he could've gotten down to 
the
> forest ?   D'you reckon he could've beat you and Dumbledore 
there?"   
> > 
> > "Not unless he can turn himself into a bat or something," said 
Harry.
> 
> 
> And of course he *didn't* do any such thing, which pretty much
> indicates that he couldn't, any more than Sirius could turn himself
> into a potted plant as Hannah Abbott suggested. 

I'm curious as to why you think that didn't=couldn't.

> Carol, who thinks that JKR has sufficiently quashed the vampire 
theory
> and wishes we'd drop the subject

I don't think the vampire hypothesis has had a stake driven through 
its heart and to illustrate, here's the actual JKR quote from Mar. 
4/04...

<<Megan: Is there a link between Snape and vampires?
JK Rowling: Erm...I don't think so.>>

1- As I mentioned previously, that's hardly a rock-solid, no-two-
ways-about-it refutation.
2- Since the question was NOT "Is Snape a vampire?" JKR has the 
wiggle-room to say, should Snape turn out to be a vampire, "He's a
loner vampire, so he's not linked to any other vampires in the 
least."

-Joe in SoFla, who doesn't think that JKR has said "no" so much as 
she has said "not yes."




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Wed Mar 31 01:45:12 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 01:45:12 -0000
Subject: Harry, Snape,Occlumency
In-Reply-To: <c4cj2c+8jk2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4d7r8+ohcu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94594

> Carol, who thinks that the anti-Snape faction should make up its 
> mind whether to blame him for the way he taught Occlumency *or* 
> for ending the lessons. It's neither fair nor logical to blame him 
> for both.

Well, I surely don't consider myself in any anti-Snape faction [he's 
one of my favorite characters and I admire many things about him], 
but I have certainly been a vocal opponent of his teaching style, at 
least as it is concerns Harry, Neville & Hermione.  I sure would 
love to hear why it's incongruous to disagree w/ his Occlumency 
*methods* AND to be angry with him for ending the lessons.  I must 
be missing something obvious--??

I think Snape could have done a better job at the very beginning of 
the occlumency lessons, as I've described ad nauseum, but I don't 
quite see how saying that means that I "can't" be upset that he 
kicked Harry out and stopped the lessons. In my mind, there was 
always room both for Harry to become a better, more dedicated 
occlumency student and for Snape to try a bit of a different tack in 
teaching him.

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 31 01:45:12 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 01:45:12 -0000
Subject: Snape as A-hole Drill Sargeant [was: Re: Harry, Snape,Occlumency]
In-Reply-To: <000e01c415df$8067e7c0$05030f04@dslverizon.net>
Message-ID: <c4d7r8+mdri@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94595

Anne wrote: 
> <snip> First of all, having been a DE, Snape knows what the DE can
do...every last little horrible detail, no doubt whether he did it
himself or not. Second, he knows Voldemort is coming back, either
because of inside information, or because he trusts DD's judgement in
the matter. Third...by the time he gets Harry...it has already
started. The Hogwarts teachers are already making preparations to keep
Voldemort, or at least his faith DE, from getting something valuble
(The Philospher/Sorcerer's stone). So, in essence, there is no more time.
> 
> Snape is a survivor of a war--one we could probably draw parallels
to in Vietnam and the like. He knows what's about to happen...worse
yet, he not only knows what it means in a general way for his chosen
side, but he has an excellent idea what his former allies are capable
of. He is already in 'war' mode...and since he knows there's no more
time, that Harry MUST survive and do certain things, he's not going to
have a whole hell of a lot of patience for the kid...and he'll have
even less for a reluctant, combative one. Ther's no time to indulge
Harry in that, even at age eleven--Voldemort has already found
him...has already dragged Harry onto the battlefield, in
> fact...and anyone associated with him as well.
> 
> And of course, since no one else but a select few *see* the war is
not only coming, but is already here, Snape is twice hogtied...somehow
he has to teach thise kids, almost instantly, things that even their
parents don't think need to be taught (and will certinaly hang HIM for
if they find out about it!). <snip>

Carol:
These are excellent points, Anne, particularly with regard to Snape's
teaching methods in the Occlumency lessons. There's no time to spare
for niceness, and if Snape had attempted it, Harry would have been
immediately suspicious. He has to remain in his established character,
trying to impart a sense of urgency to Harry, who I hope will be
better prepared and more willing to listen to Snape in the next book.

There's only one point I don't agree with, the last one. Muggle
parents like Hermione's might object to Snape's teaching methods, but
the WW has different standards. Look at Filch's preferred methods of
discipline, which at some point must actually have been used. Look at
how Arthur Weasley was punished by Filch's predecessor (I've forgotten
his name): Mrs. Weasley states cheerfully that he still has the scars.
Even Lucius Malfoy expects Draco to work hard and earn his marks. I
imagine that many teachers used methods like Snape's or even
Umbridge's when the parents of Malfoy's generation were kids.
Dumbledore knows and approves Snape's methods. We don't hear of a
single parent complaining about him. I think it's we Muggles, viewing
the WW from the outside, who pass judgment on it, both for its
disciplinary methods and for its treatment of house-elves and other
non-humans.

Other than that, I agree entirely with your post. Snape knows what's
in store and he can't afford to be polite to Hermione as she eagerly
offers to give the answers that he wants *Harry* to give. He can't
afford to waste time being nice to anybody. Time is running short and
the kids, especially Harry, need to be prepared for what's coming.

Carol




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Wed Mar 31 01:53:24 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 01:53:24 -0000
Subject: Is Hermione Supposed to be a Genius?
In-Reply-To: <c4cs64+obqp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4d8ak+no48@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94596

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jdr0918" <jdr0918 at h...> wrote:
> Remember, our Hermione is a *bitch*. 


I'm sorry, JDR, but I think this goes way too far.  It might be nice 
if you were to phrase this as an opinion.  Some of us actually kinda 
like Hermione....

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From stevejjen at earthlink.net  Wed Mar 31 01:57:00 2004
From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 01:57:00 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c4cnij+ietu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4d8hc+r9p4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94597

Carol:
> So, yes, Snape's revelation prompted Lupin's resignation, and 
perhaps
> part of his motivation was spite, but he had tried for the entire
> school year to get Dumbledore to realize the danger of hiring a
> werewolf (the same one who nearly bit him when he was sixteen) as a
> teacher. The only reason that the danger had not been still greater
> was that Snape had prepared the wolfsbane potion. Near the end of 
> PoA we see what happens when Lupin fails to drink it.

Jen: I can't believe Snape 'spilling the beans' about Lupin was 
*more* about the student's best interest and *less* about Snape's 
best interest. I'm quantifying here because I do believe Snape 
recognizes the potential danger of having a werewolf around more 
than anyone else at Hogwarts. 

I would change my mind if I found out one of the following 
interactions took place: A) Snape went to Lupin prior to outing him 
and said, "hey, I'm giving you a chance to leave first. If you 
don't, I'm telling everyone you're a werewolf; B) Snape went to 
Dumbeldore and said basically the same thing--"take this chance to 
let Lupin go or I'm going to make his miserable life more 
miserable"; or C) Snape talked to faculty and staff about this 
dilemma instead of *students* for gosh sakes. 

On the heels of what happened the night before with 
Serverus' "severe disappointment", I'm very doubtful that Snape's 
motive was *primarily* the students safety.






From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net  Wed Mar 31 02:10:14 2004
From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 20:10:14 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Hermione Supposed to be a Genius?
References: <c4d8ak+no48@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001e01c416c5$4e5554c0$05030f04@dslverizon.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 94598

 In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jdr0918" <jdr0918 at h...> wrote:
> Remember, our Hermione is a *bitch*.


Siriusly Snapey Susan
I'm sorry, JDR, but I think this goes way too far.  It might be nice
if you were to phrase this as an opinion.  Some of us actually kinda
like Hermione....


{Silverthorne}

Have to agree. Hermione can be a little irritating for some people with her
extensive knowledge and her willingness to show it sometimes ('I have a
book, and I know how to use it!" *lol*), she can be sneaky and underhanded,
such as with the hex she put on that list, but overall, she has a heart. If
she didn't, she would have never gotten past the "And *you* are?" stage with
Ron, would not have wasted time helping Neville...and would not have gotten
so upset about the elves.

Like any of the kids, she's young, inexperinced, has a good heart, but is
still making mistakes and can come across badly because of it. And like the
other kids, as long as she keeps learning and *growing*, she will be
fine--if not, she might *become* a bitch, but not likely (not as likely as
some of the other scenarios where one or more of the kids end up turning
'wrong', IMHO). Personally, what is being presented as appearant
"bitchiness" comes across to me as a young woman who knows her own mind
already (even if she doesn't always express it...'correctly'). In other
words, the girl has a backbone, and doesn't allow it to bend.

That's a good thing...^^

Anne/Silverthorne






From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 31 02:09:52 2004
From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 02:09:52 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c4d8hc+r9p4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4d99g+aqs8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94599

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" <stevejjen at e...> 
wrote:

> On the heels of what happened the night before with 
> Serverus' "severe disappointment", I'm very doubtful that Snape's 
> motive was *primarily* the students safety.

Student safety is a plausible cover for Snape, and something of a 
bonus in outing Lupin. Especially since Snape has been known to have 
a few passive-aggressive "Ooops!" moments.

-Joe in SoFla




From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 31 02:13:21 2004
From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 02:13:21 -0000
Subject: Is Hermione Supposed to be a Genius?
In-Reply-To: <c4d8ak+no48@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4d9g1+hldh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94601

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" 
<susiequsie23 at s...> wrote:

> I'm sorry, JDR, but I think this goes way too far.  It might be 
nice 
> if you were to phrase this as an opinion.  Some of us actually 
kinda 
> like Hermione....

I'll go so far as to say that the Hermione type is my idea of the 
perfect girl. (Especially in Yule Ball finery, or the Muggle 
equivalent).

Krum's no fool.

-Joe in SoFla, who would have asked Hermione on a date the first 
chance to go to Hogsmeade.




From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 31 02:22:25 2004
From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 02:22:25 -0000
Subject: Snape, the "Deeply Horrible Person"
In-Reply-To: <c4d9ca+bdqc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4da11+a787@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94602

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Nora Renka" <nrenka at y...> 
wrote:
[snippity doo dah]

> As for authors and works, let me make the best example that I know 
> of, even though it's not literary.  Britten's opera 'Peter Grimes' 
> had Jon Vickers as one of its great interpreters, who brought out 
> something from the text in a way that Britten hated--his 
conception 
> of the character was rather different.  This is valid, but with 
one 
> problem...Vickers' interpretation of the character couldn't make 
> sense of as many of the aspects of the text and music as Pears, 
> Britten's chosen interpreter, did.  So while one can enjoy 
Vickers, 
> it's not as 'good' of an interpretation.

I'll take the analogy from the sublime to the ridiculous:

It's similar to high-end audio gear. A certain piece (an amplifier, 
say) of equipment may give a certain "coloration" to a particular 
bit of music that might be (widely? generally? universally? not-
uncommonly?) considered pleasant, while another piece might give a 
less colored and less pleasant but more accurate sound. We may 
prefer the former to the latter, and consider it best...but it 
wouldn't be the same exact thing that was produced in the recording 
studio, and therefore not what the musician/producer/engineer 
intended for you to hear.

-Joe in SoFla, muddying up a storm




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Wed Mar 31 02:48:34 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 02:48:34 -0000
Subject: Ollivanders' origin (was: Ollivander a Dragon Slayer?)
In-Reply-To: <c4d6ro+36d5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4dbi2+u6i4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94603

 
> Neri wrote:
> I wonder what country did the Ollivanders came from? Britain wasn't 
> very civilized in the forth century B.C., and "Ollivander" doesn't 
> sound British. Is it the same as "oleander"? To my knowledge 
oleander 
> is the Latin name for a bush with beautiful but poisonous flowers, 
> which is common in the Mediterranean.

Potioncat:
I was wondering if it was "Olive Wand".  In this case, does Olive 
refer to the olive branch?  The sound of it also reminds me of Oliver 
Wood.




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 31 02:59:29 2004
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 02:59:29 -0000
Subject: Snape's house
In-Reply-To: <20040330233028.41801.qmail@web14807.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c4dc6h+bglb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94604

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Vickey <willowsgreyghost at y...> 
wrote:
> 
> 
> I don't know about Luna, but here's my 2 knuts worth.  I think that 
Severus was a Slytherin.  I would think that not only would true 
Slytherin parents not want someone that was not a former Slytherin as 
HoH, but I would think that DD has chosen former students from the 
houses to be the HOH's...look at the others, McGonagall is prime 
example of Gryffindor, Flitwick is perfect for Ravenclaw, and with 
what little is shown for Hufflepuffs and Professor Sprout, how could 
you doubt that she was a Hufflepuff at school?  So that said, Severus 
is also a perfect example for Slytherin...he has the thirst to prove 
himself, and given not only his feelings towards James, but what we 
see concerning his father, he probably feels that he has a lot to 
prove, especially to his father.  I started to add that he is 
probably pure-blood and I still think that he probably is, but I 
started to think that this may help explain why he hated James so 
much....maybe he was abused because he wasn't pure-blood...maybe his 
father didn't realize that his mother wasn't pure-blood and took it 
out on Severus.   And then seeing perfect, happy James would only 
serve to rub in the fact that he would never be good enough for his 
father.  
> 
> Sirius....Severus....*sigh*
> 
> 
> 

Oh, but we don't know whether other Slyhterin parents know about 
Snape's house. I mean, yes, Malfoy sure knows , but those who did not 
go to school with him - not necessarily .


I would not even agree that McGonagall and Flitwick are perfect 
examples of their houses. Sure, they don't look like Slytherins to 
me, but can you say that McGonagall is very smart and Flitwick is 
very brave.

We now know that many people have mixed qualities. I mean, with Harry 
Hat had its doubts whether his house would be Slytherin or 
Gryffindor, Hermione was almost sorted in Ravenclaw.

To me it is not that bif of a stretch to believe that Severus was in 
Gryffindor.

I aks again, why would Sirius be upset that Severus became Malfoy 
lapdog? Why did he care?

How Sirius got to sepnd so much time with Severus to be persuasive 
enough to  lure him into Shrieking Shack?

I don't know - I think it would be an interesting revelation at the 
end of the series if Snape will turn out a Gryffindor.  I thought 
for  along time that either Sirius was a Slytherin or severus was a 
Gryffindor.

As we all know JKR effectively killed "Sirius was in Slyhterin" part 
at the chat, but I still think that Snape may turn out to be a 
Gryffindor.

Yes, he has plenty of Slytherin ambition, but also a lot of courage, 
so it could be an interesting surprise for Harry.

Consider also this despite the fact that JKR finally started talking 
about house unity, Gryffindor is her favourite house and Slytherin 
house is still a caricature (unfortunately)


If Snape will turn out to be a good guy at th end, I think it makes 
sense for him to be a Gryffindor.

Alla




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 31 03:03:35 2004
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 03:03:35 -0000
Subject: Harry, Snape,Occlumency
In-Reply-To: <c4d7r8+ohcu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4dce7+j3q8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94605

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" 
<susiequsie23 at s...> wrote:
> I think Snape could have done a better job at the very beginning of 
> the occlumency lessons, as I've described ad nauseum, but I don't 
> quite see how saying that means that I "can't" be upset that he 
> kicked Harry out and stopped the lessons. In my mind, there was 
> always room both for Harry to become a better, more dedicated 
> occlumency student and for Snape to try a bit of a different tack 
in 
> teaching him.
> 
> Siriusly Snapey Susan


Hi, Susan!

I guess what Carol wanted to know (I am sorry if I am wrong) is what 
in our opinion caused more harm - Snape's "interesting" method of 
teaching or him stopping the lessons. Now when you said it I am not 
sure either why it is illogical to blame him for both.

Alla , not anti-Snape as character, but definitely anti-Snape as a 
member of teaching profession. :o)






From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net  Wed Mar 31 03:06:33 2004
From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 21:06:33 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ollivanders' origin (was: Ollivander a Dragon Slayer?)
References: <c4dbi2+u6i4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <003601c416cd$2f224ba0$05030f04@dslverizon.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 94606

Neri
I wonder what country did the Ollivanders came from? Britain wasn't  very
civilized in the forth century B.C., and "Ollivander" doesn't  sound
British. Is it the same as "oleander"? To my knowledge oleander is the Latin
name for a bush with beautiful but poisonous flowers, which is common in the
Mediterranean.

Potioncat:
I was wondering if it was "Olive Wand".  In this case, does Olive refer to
the olive branch?  The sound of it also reminds me of Oliver Wood.

{Silverthorne}

Hmmmm...
Well,  what's the language base for his name (it sounds like a 'real'
surname)? That might help decide the matter. ^^

In regards to trees and (possible) locales...don't olive trees orginate from
the Mediterranean area as well? Thereby covering a wide variety of possible
civilazations for Ollivander's family tree to orignate from. If I remember
by geography correctly *snorts*, that would cover Greece, the middle east
(the countries around the inner seas anyway), South Italy...maybe even
Egypt....definetely 'older' civilazations all around at any rate...^^;

Anne (Making a feeble attempt at intelligent speculation...hehe)



*************************************

Anne/Silverthorne
Silverthorne.Dragon at verizon.net (Nights and Weekends)
Anne-TMC-RCVG.Campbell at tenetheath.com (6am-3pm American Central, Mon-Fri.)





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 31 03:18:01 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 03:18:01 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c4amlo+5h7k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4dd99+qntg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94607

Alla wrote:
> Hi, Carol!
<snip>
> But that is not the issue for me. The issue is whether Snape had any 
> RIGHT reasons for not resuming Occlumency lessons.

I (Carol) wrote:
You said in another post that if Dumbledore knew that Snape had
stopped the lessons, then you would consider not blaming Snape for
letting Harry have the dream that sent him to the MoM. (Forgive the
bad paraphrase--if that's not your meaning, please correct me.)
> 
Alla responded:
> Well, not exactly. I guess I just wanted to emphasize that 
> Dumbledore  has a lion share of blame for this mess, IMO. Sorry for 
> being unclear.

Carol:
Okay. At least you don't wholly blame Snape. But I'm convinced that DD
would have made Snape resume the lessons if he thought it would do any
good at that point. Maybe Steve is rght that they were doomed to fail
for various reasons and DD recognized that they were, at this point,
an exercise in futility. Also the failed/abandoned Occlumency lessons
were only one of many factors causing or leading up to the events at
the MoM. Harry's thought that he will "never forgive Snape. Never!" is
an attempt to scapegoat Snape by throwing *all* the blame on him, when
in fact he did his best to rescue Harry and friends by sending the
Order (minus Sirius, who went of his own accord, against Snape's
advice). Surely that should count for something, even if it doesn't
exonerate him completely? I'm sure that Harry is *not* going to retain
that attitude into the next book. He has to gain a clearer and more
mature perspective. IMO, he also really needs to learn to work with
Snape, who (as you acknowledge later in your post) really does know a
lot about what LV is doing and what Harry needs to do to defeat him.

Alla wrote: 
> What am I getting at? Nothing new, I am afraid. He knew pretty well 
> how harmful will be to allow Voldie to enter into Harry's mind 
> consciously.

Carol:
I'm not sure what you're getting at. Snape wasn't trying to get Harry
to let LV into his mind. LV was already there. He was trying to get
Harry to close him out. If Snape played the role of Voldemort,
consciously entering Harry's mind himself, Harry would know what it
was like and fight him off. It was the only way to learn (and no doubt
the way Snape had learned Occlumency himself). Given the urgency of
the lessons, which Snape recognized, if there had been some other way,
he would have used it. 
> 
Alla wrote:
> I don't even see the end of the lessons as LESSER evil to choose. I 
> just see it as EVIL, period.

Carol:
I think you may be overrating this incident. As I said, it's only one
of the factors leading to the events at the MoM, and maybe the end of
the lessons was inevitable. They did some good, but not as much as
they would have done if they had started earlier, if Snape had been
free to tell Harry everything, and if Snape and Harry had trusted each
other.

I (Carol) wrote:> 
Note that the abandonment of the Occlumency lessons does not 
diminish Dumbledore's trust in Snape. Nor does he apparently blame
Snape stopping the lessons. Dumbledore could have ordered Snape to
"get over it" and resume the lessons, but he didn't. Why not? Might it
be that *Snape* sensed that they were doing more harm than good and
asked Dumbledore to let him abandon them? Was there something in that
Pensieve that it would have been extremely dangerous for Voldemort 
to see in Harry's mind? 
> 
> 
Alla:
> I a afraid I don't place much faith in Dumbledore's trust anymore. 
> Sorry! As I said before I am not so sure that dumbledore knew about 
> the end of the lessons right away.

Carol:
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one. The evidence
as I see it indicates that Snape reported regularly to DD after every
lesson. he would know better than to withhold such important
information from DD. I do trust Dumbledore, but only to provide
partial information, not all the facts. But a straightforward
statement, repeated in every book, that he trusts Severus Snape has to
be taken as the truth, whether he's right to trust snape or not (IMO
he is). And if we believe JKR, Dumbledore is still the ultimate good
guy, Harry's mentor, who is subject to error like everyone else but
essentially wise and good. He's Voldemort's worst enemy as well. I'll
grant you that to some degree he must use Harry as a tool; there's no
other way to win the war. And I'll also grant that Dumbledore (through
Snape's discoveries) benefitted more from the Occlumency than Harry
did. He found out what was going on in Harry's mind. If you go along
with Kneasy's puppet master theory, you could argue that the
Occlumency lessons were an excuse for Snape to read Harry's mind and
report his information to Dumbledore, but that's not how I see it. I
think he would have benefited--if only the lessons had started sooner
and the mutual animosity had not interfered.
> 

Alla:
> You said that it would be dangerous for Harry to see another
memories  which Snape put into Pensieve. Could you clarify, please?
> Do you think that Harry would have wanted to look into Pensieve 
> again, if the lessons were continued?

Carol:
Sorry to be unclear. No, I don't think Harry would have wanted to look
in the Pensieve again or that Snape would have given him that
opportunity. But I think that Snape had lost all trust in him and
feared what he would see if he tried again. He may well have been in
panic mode when he found Harry in the Pensieve because of whatever the
other memories were that he might have seen. Dumbledore makes it sound
as if the memory Harry saw was the cause of Snape's reaction, but I'm
not so sure. Like Kneasy, I think that the other two memories had
nothing to do with Harry and everything to do with Snape's opposition
to Voldemort. Whatever they were, it would have been disastrous for
Snape (and Dumbledore) for Harry to see them. I think that DD
respected Snape's fear and knew it would be disastrous--or
impossible--to continue. (I agree that Harry wouldn't have looked in
the Pensieve again, but try convincing Snape of that after all the
rules Harry has broken and all the times he's been out of bounds.)

Another possibility is that Snape thought that the lessons were doing
more harm than good, opening up Harry's mind to Voldemort at exactly
the wrong time, and he asked DD to allow him to discontinue them. DD,
with his usual penchant for half-true explanations, put the blame on
Snape's inability to let old injuries heal. (Whatever the explanation,
I don't think that's the real one.)

I (Carol) wrote:  
JKR has told us to watch Snape carefully and not to judge him by
appearances. The Occlumency lessons and their abandonment are 
examples of the sort of scene into which we can easily read too
much--or too little. Even if Snape is wholly at fault (and I don't
think he is), his decision to end the Occlumency lessons no more
caused Harry to go to the MoM than Harry's going to the MoM caused
Sirius's death or his saving Peter caused Voldemort's return. It is
one event in a complex chain of events, one decision among many. And
it should also be weighed against Snape's other actions and decisions.
One mistake--if it was a mistake--should not be grounds for condemning
a character who in other circumstances shows great courage and loyalty
to Dumbledore. At the very least, we should reserve judgment until the
end of Book 
7.

Alla wrote: 
> Yes, it is one event and of course I can change my judgment about 
> Snape plenty of time (and I suspect I may), but it is just too big
of the event for me not to draw negative inferences, so to speak.
<snip> I will be very very happy to be proven wrong. Usually Snape
type hero is my favourite character in the book, that is why I still
have some hopes for him, but my patience is running thin. :o)

Carol:
Even though he sent the Order to the MoM? Harry and his friends would
have died at the hands of the DEs without him. To me, that makes
ending the Occlumency lessons pale by comparison. But if I haven't
convinced you by now, I never will.

The thing about Snape is that he's so complex that one single incident
can't be the basis for our judgment. We can be absolutely certain
about some of the characters being evil--Voldemort, Malfoy, Bellatrix,
Macnair. Others, like Quirrell and Kreacher, even possibly Barty Jr.,
are simultaneously victims and villains but ultimately the choice to
do evil is their own. But Snape is such a mixture of hero and
villain--a Death Eater risking his life for the side of good, a
"horrible" teacher who is also the righthand man of The Only One He
(Voldemort) Ever Feared, that I just can't understand anyone wanting
to label him or pin him down before we've finished the series--this
one act somehow makes him evil. Surely ending the Occlumency lessons
is not on a par with murdering your father or betraying the Potters or
even placing Tom Riddle's diary in Ginny's cauldron? those were truly
evil acts, whether they were performed for revenge or ambition or
cowardice. But angrily giving up in frustration because the kid you're
trying to teach has violated your privacy and seen what he should not
have seen? A mistake, maybe. A wrong decision, maybe. But a wilful act
of evil that "caused" Harry to go to the MoM? I just don't think so.

Carol, giving up now because she's exhausted all her arguments :-)




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Wed Mar 31 03:38:48 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 03:38:48 -0000
Subject: Snape's house
In-Reply-To: <20040330233028.41801.qmail@web14807.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c4deg8+ir6p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94608

xVickey wrote: 
snip< I would think that not only would true Slytherin parents not 
want someone that was not a former Slytherin as HoH, but I would 
think that DD has chosen former students from the houses to be the 
HOH's...look at the others, McGonagall is prime example of 
Gryffindor, Flitwick is perfect for Ravenclaw, and with what little 
is shown for Hufflepuffs and Professor Sprout, how could you doubt 
that she was a Hufflepuff at school?  So that said, Severus is also a 
perfect example for Slytherin...he has the thirst to prove himself, 
snip< 
>

Potioncat:
I think the idea of HoH backgrouds is one of the areas that lots of 
us disagree on. Canon is lacking and we can each draw our own 
conclusions.  I think McGonagall could easily be a Ravenclaw.  
Flitwick could be a Hufflepuff or Gryffindor. 

For that matter, look at the ones we do know, could we put them in 
other houses as well?  Percy could be a Slytherin (a good one, of 
course) Ron could be a Hufflepuff (he's loyal)  We just don't know 
about the adults.  Either adults' houses weren't important for us to 
know, it was no longer important to the adults themselves, or it will 
be important later that it was unknown in the beginning.

I cannot imagine that in the WW, any adult is concerned about which 
house the other adults were in.  Take the Healers.  You could have 4 
healers, each from different houses of Hogwarts.  The Slytherin would 
work to become head of the department, the Gryffindor would attempt 
the dangerous  unproven procedure, the Hufflepuff would take time to 
comfort the parents of a sick child and the Ravenclaw would be the 
one who would find the answers to the hard to diagnose cases.

Back to thread, I think dyed in the wool Slytherin families would 
prefer a pureblood HoH.  I don't think they would object to someone 
from a different house unless that person held anti-Slytherin views. 
And I bet you could find a biased pureblood in any of the houses.

Potioncat (who also believes Snape was and is a Slytherin and that 
being a Slytherin is not bad)


> 
> 
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nkafkafi at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 31 03:41:28 2004
From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 03:41:28 -0000
Subject: Snape as A-hole Drill Sargeant [was: Re: Harry, Snape,Occlumency]
In-Reply-To: <c49n2u+rq7s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4del8+iqi2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94609

> "Silverthorne" (Anne) said:
> > However, for Military trained people the ability to remain
> > calm and rational no matter *what* Mr Asshole Seargant is 
> > screaming at you is one of the primary foci of training. Why? 
> > Because later, when you're stuck in a fox hole with bombs going 
off 
> > right over your head, a bleeding gut wound, and the best buddy 
you 
> > knew since high school laying right next to you with his guts 
> > hanging out, you're still going to have to be able to function and
> > *think* in order to survive where you're at. Emotional reaction 
> > won't cut it. Neither will a passive attitude. <snip>

> 
> Siriusly Snapey Susan:
> Anne, you have done an *excellent* job of explaining this, and I 
have 
> no doubt that you are right about why Asshole Drill Sergeants 
behave 
> as they do.  
> <snip>

Neri:
Speaking as someone who had several "asshole" drill sergeants, my 
personal opinion is that this method of training is extremely 
counterproductive, and the fact that armies around the world keep 
using it just goes to show that armies are extremely conservative 
institutions who would rather use an ineffective method of training 
than break a sacred tradition. The main objective of the asshole 
sergeant is to punish his poor trainees for the humiliations he had 
suffered from his own asshole sergeant at the time. I was sincerely 
hoping that the WW has managed to avoid this ugly muggle tradition, 
as it seems to have managed avoiding male chauvinism.

It is definitely true that a soldier should train performing his role 
under extreme pressure, but only after he had mastered it. Learning 
any new skill under this kind of pressure is next to impossible.

Although this is probably OT, I simply must mention here that the 
best commander I ever had was my drill sergeant during basic 
training. He was down right scary. We all called him "The Nazi" 
behind his back and he knew it; in fact he cultivated this fa?ade. It 
took us the whole three months to realize what a great and hilarious 
person he was behind this facade. While being extremely frightening, 
he never humiliated any of us in front of the others, nor alone for 
that matter. He is my living proof that it is possible to be a great 
drill sergeant without being an "asshole" drill sergeant.

Neri





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 31 03:48:08 2004
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 03:48:08 -0000
Subject: Snape's house
In-Reply-To: <c4deg8+ir6p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4df1o+c7im@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94610

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at m...> 
> Potioncat:
> I think the idea of HoH backgrouds is one of the areas that lots of 
> us disagree on. Canon is lacking and we can each draw our own 
> conclusions.  I think McGonagall could easily be a Ravenclaw.  
> Flitwick could be a Hufflepuff or Gryffindor. 
> 
> For that matter, look at the ones we do know, could we put them in 
> other houses as well?  Percy could be a Slytherin (a good one, of 
> course) Ron could be a Hufflepuff (he's loyal)  We just don't know 
> about the adults.  Either adults' houses weren't important for us 
to 
> know, it was no longer important to the adults themselves, or it 
will 
> be important later that it was unknown in the beginning.
> 
> I cannot imagine that in the WW, any adult is concerned about which 
> house the other adults were in.  Take the Healers.  You could have 
4 
> healers, each from different houses of Hogwarts.  The Slytherin 
would 
> work to become head of the department, the Gryffindor would attempt 
> the dangerous  unproven procedure, the Hufflepuff would take time 
to 
> comfort the parents of a sick child and the Ravenclaw would be the 
> one who would find the answers to the hard to diagnose cases.
> 
> Back to thread, I think dyed in the wool Slytherin families would 
> prefer a pureblood HoH.  I don't think they would object to someone 
> from a different house unless that person held anti-Slytherin 
views. 
> And I bet you could find a biased pureblood in any of the houses.
> 
> Potioncat (who also believes Snape was and is a Slytherin and that 
> being a Slytherin is not bad)
> 
>

Oh, I actually in agreement with your post. I think it kind of 
supports my line of reasoning. :o)

I guess I just wanted to add to mine that even if Snape will turn out 
to be Slyth, I still want him to be a trouble for the Hat ( maybe, 
contrary to Harry he insisted on going to Slytherin), but I still 
think Gryffindor would be funnier.



Alla, who thinks that being in Slyhterin should not be bad, but who 
also thinks that JKR thinks that it is kinda bad. :o)





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Wed Mar 31 03:54:19 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 03:54:19 -0000
Subject: Snape as A-hole Drill Sargeant [was: Re: Harry, Snape,Occlumency]
In-Reply-To: <c4d7r8+mdri@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4dfdb+o463@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94611

Carol wrote: 
> Other than that, I agree entirely with your post. Snape knows what's
> in store and he can't afford to be polite to Hermione as she eagerly
> offers to give the answers that he wants *Harry* to give. He can't
> afford to waste time being nice to anybody. Time is running short 
and
> the kids, especially Harry, need to be prepared for what's coming.
> 

Potioncat:
Good, at last I found a way to re-respond to this issue.  I've said 
that Snape is not a good teacher. That has to stand. But I think he 
is teaching them, the best way he can, for what is coming.  He works 
with intimidation and fear to motivate them, probably because that is 
what he knows how to do.  It may have been what motivated him. 
Carol, you have a good point, the WW doen't seem to mind his 
approach.  And it is a rather accepted one from the old days even in 
the RW. 

Remember the time Snape was going to use Neville's shriking potion on 
Trevor?  He hinted it might poison Trevor if Neville made a mistake?  
Hermione helped Neville.  I have always wondered just what Snape 
intended to teach Neville that Hermione messed up.
Potioncat (with apologies for rambling.) 






From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Wed Mar 31 04:08:16 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 04:08:16 -0000
Subject: Harry, Snape,Occlumency
In-Reply-To: <c4dce7+j3q8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4dg7g+tc5b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94612

Siriusly Snapey Susan wrote:
> > I think Snape could have done a better job at the very beginning 
> > of the occlumency lessons, as I've described ad nauseum, but I 
> > don't quite see how saying that means that I "can't" be upset 
> > that he kicked Harry out and stopped the lessons. In my mind, 
> > there was always room both for Harry to become a better, more 
> > dedicated occlumency student and for Snape to try a bit of a 
> > different tack in  teaching him.

Alla:
> I guess what Carol wanted to know (I am sorry if I am wrong) is 
> what in our opinion caused more harm - Snape's "interesting" 
> method of teaching or him stopping the lessons. Now when you said 
> it I am not sure either why it is illogical to blame him for both.
> 
> Alla , not anti-Snape as character, but definitely anti-Snape as a 
> member of teaching profession. :o)

Siriusly Snapey Susan again:
Oooooooooh, I see what you're saying.  Well, hmmmm.  I guess in my 
mind, if Snape had done things differently at the start of the 
lessons--for instance, if he'd explained more what was happening & 
HOW to battle it, if he'd been less sarcastic, if he'd helped Harry 
to settle down; in short, if he'd put his own disdain for Harry on 
the back burner for once in order to show that he really did want 
him to succeed--then I think Harry would have been more likely to 
have had some real success and **maybe** even developed a little 
trust or respect of Snape.  So I guess I would say that that would 
be the one of the two I'd "fix" if I could.

I'm still not sure this is what Carol meant, but that's what I 
suppose I'd say if you're right, Alla.

Siriusly Snapey Susan






From lhuntley at fandm.edu  Wed Mar 31 04:18:08 2004
From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 23:18:08 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Hermione Supposed to be a Genius?
In-Reply-To: <c4d9g1+hldh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <69F51DF4-82CA-11D8-94CF-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 94613

JDR:
> Remember, our Hermione is a *bitch*.

Siriusly Snapey Susan:
>> I'm sorry, JDR, but I think this goes way too far.  It might be nice
>> if you were to phrase this as an opinion.  Some of us actually kinda
>> like Hermione....

Actually, I think "bitch" is technically a compliment coming from The 
Sergeant Majorette (JDR, that is).  ^_~

Personally, I wouldn't call her a bitch, at least not in the 
traditional sense.  She can be ruthless, domineering, and insensitive 
-- that *is* true -- but usually only when it is (IMO) *right* to be 
ruthless, domineering, and insensitive.

I think people often home in on Hermione's "bitchy" side at the expense 
of noticing her compassionate one because it's such a deviation from 
the accepted model of girlhood.  The truth is, Hermione is one of the 
few characters that offers emotional, physical, and intellectual 
support to those who need it (e.g. Harry, Neville).

Joe:
> I'll go so far as to say that the Hermione type is my idea of the
> perfect girl. (Especially in Yule Ball finery, or the Muggle
> equivalent).
> Krum's no fool.
> -Joe in SoFla, who would have asked Hermione on a date the first
> chance to go to Hogsmeade.

Just out of curiosity, how do you SHIP?  I think I've noticed a 
tendency in male Hermione fans to be H/H, but as we have so few 
representatives of the Y-chromosome here, it's difficult to tell if 
there's an actual correlation.

Laura




From jjjjjulie at aol.com  Wed Mar 31 02:31:44 2004
From: jjjjjulie at aol.com (jjjjjuliep)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 02:31:44 -0000
Subject: Is Hermione Supposed to be a Genius?
In-Reply-To: <406A995C.31425.3729521@localhost>
Message-ID: <c4daig+fpp7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94614

"Shaun Hately" <drednort at a...> wrote:

> On 30 Mar 2004 at 12:13, Susanne wrote:

> > Hermione certainly seems very intelligent and inquisitive,
> > and has the lack of social graces that's sometimes
> > attributed to geniuses (is this really typical for very
> > intelligent people, or just one of those generalizations?).

[deletia = many of Shaun's good points]

> I don't think Hermione really lacks social graces. When she sees
> the point of social interactions, she engages in them. But she has
> other things that she gives a higher priority to. That's not
> uncommon.

Plus I don't think that Hermione is presented or portrayed as a social
outcast at Hogwarts.  Now, I'm not sure if Harry and Ron are 
necessarily "popular", but they do have friends, as does Hermoine.  
After all, it's not like she was dateless at the ball in GoF.  ;-)  
And isn't Cho a bit jealous of her in OoP?

I think Hermione's behavior can look as if she lacks social graces and
that may be due to her high intelligence (Is she not a genius because 
she has to study? Well, she has to learn the spells somehow.) and her 
age. Even older folks with high IQs can get impatient with others--in 
the words of one of my friends, "brainiacs have a responsibility to 
not remind the imbeciles of their imbecility."  But Hermione is still 
relatively young, and hasn't learned the patience that (usually) 
comes with age.

And Hogwarts has got to be such an amazing place for her, especially 
as a Muggle.  All of that information and all of that wisdom, adults 
who understand her and who can both encourage her and rein her in too.

Indeed, she's such an interesting character, even as a young woman,
because she moves between so many competing, and even contradictory,
spaces:  between the teachers and students at Hogwarts, between the
different groups at Hogwarts, between the magical and Muggle worlds. 

And of course, between house elves and everyone else.  ;-)


jujube (what do you mean I'm over-identifying with Hermione?)






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 31 04:55:12 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 04:55:12 -0000
Subject: JKR didn't say "No: was re: Life-saving bonds
In-Reply-To: <cd.8c2882d.2d9ae849@aol.com>
Message-ID: <c4divg+fptv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94615

Pippin wrote:
> <snipped by Jessa> It's like, "Mum, does this receipt from the
bicycle shop I found in the bin have anything to do with Bobby's
Christmas present?" At which point Mum realizes that little Bobby is 
> listening hard, and says: 
> "Erm...I don't think so." Meaning, 'Well-spotted, but don't let's 
> spoil the surprise.' <g>
> 
Jessa responded:
> "Erm...I don't think so." Could have meant.. "Erm.. (Where on earth
do they come up with these things?) I don't think so."

Carol:
I agree with Jessa. "I don't *think* so" in this context means
"absolutely not." If JKR thinks Snape has no connection with vampires,
then he has none. He not only isn't a vampire himself, he isn't
associated with them in any way, shape, or form. Not even Karkaroff,
who is at least from the right part of Europe (unlike the very English
Snape), can be a vampire if JKR doesn't "think" Snape is associated
with vampires.

Even old Voldy can't be a vampire if Snape has no connection with
them. (Anybody for Viktor Krum as a vampire candidate if you
absolutely must have one?)

Carol




From lhuntley at fandm.edu  Wed Mar 31 05:06:53 2004
From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 00:06:53 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's disposition -Suburban Wasteland
In-Reply-To: <c4cs7e+5udd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39CE6097-82D1-11D8-94CF-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 94616

I've done some pretty radical snipping of this post, as I only want to 
comment on certain aspects of it -- hope Steve doesn't mind. ^_^

Steve (bboy_mn):
<SNIP reasons for Harry's anger in OotP>
> If that weren't enough, he is then uncerimoniously dumped at Privet
> Drive. No one makes any attempt to talk to him, to lend any
> reassurance or perspective to his own near death and Voldemort's
> rebirth. As always, Herry is left ALONE to deal with the situation on
> his own. "Stiff upper lip" and all that be damned, don't these people
> have brains, or hearts, for that matter. It didn't occur to anyone
> that Harry might need some support to deal with that trama? OOOOH
> NOOOOO! Just let him work it out on his own.

Notice that this is also pretty much what happens at the end of OotP -- 
Harry's just lost someone *very* important to him due to circumstances 
that are at least partially his own fault . . . and the people closest 
to him just ship him back to Privet Drive like everything's normal.  
The only discussion he gets on the matter are from near-strangers (Luna 
and NHN), who know nothing of his relationship with Sirius, and next to 
nothing about the circumstances of his death.

Steve:
> Now to the most critical part. Harry, as always in his sad life, has
> only himself to rely on to deal with his tramatic circumstance. But as
> some one with limited life experience, as some one with few role
> models, few guides in his life, few examples of balance and
> perspective in life, few balanced reference points, it's not a
> surprising that his thinking occassionally gets a little twisted.

*nods* Like it did at the end of OotP, when he "decided" that Sirius's 
death was Snape's fault, but ultimately (IMO) still blames himself.  
Personally, I think both of these conclusions are not only wrong, but 
unhealthy, and *someone* ought to have realized The Way Harry Thinks 
and headed off the damage before it started.

Steve:
> Look at how quickly his thinking became warped when the returned from
> visiting Mr. Weasley in the hospital the first time. In no time at
> all, using a seemingly perfect path of logic, Harry has himself
> convinced that he is some kind of monster that is a danger to everyone
> around him.
> Since he has never in his life had anyone he could comfortably turn to
> for support and perspective, he decides on his own that he has to
> leave Grimmauld Place and return to Privet Drive. Only the fortuitous,
> yet without explanation or reason, demand by Dumbledore that he 'stay
> where you are', keeps Harry from leaving. Even then, he is not
> reassured, and reasonably so. Instead, still convinced he is a monster
> that isn't fit to be around normal people, Harry spends his time
> hiding from his friends.

Who are all, for some inexplicable reason, too afraid of him or his 
feelings to *help* him.  At least until Hermione shows up, that is.

Ginny's angry retort to Harry's fears of possession is often 
highlighted by Ginny fans as proof that she isn't afraid to disagree 
with and Set Him Straight -- but (aside from the fact that she is Dead 
Wrong about possession in the first place) where *was* she all that 
time Harry was working himself into deep depression?  Does she just not 
*care* that he's obviously in need of reassurance?  Does she think he's 
merely being sulky and ought to snap out of it on his own?  I don't get 
it.  Granted, *Ron* didn't even seem to be able to work up the nerve to 
confront his own best friend, so I guess we can let his younger sis off 
the hook.

Steve:
<SNIP>
> Given the hellishly tramatic things Harry has experienced, and the
> absolutely horrible (near criminal in my book) support he has been
> given by the people he trusts, it's a complete wonder that Harry is as
> well adjusted as he is.

This particular passage always stands out to me at the end of OotP (UK 
ed., pg. 724).

"Ron and Hermione left the hospital wing completely cured three days 
before the end of term.
Hermione kept showing signs of wanting to talk about Sirius, but Ron 
tended to make
hushing noises every time she mentioned his name. Harry was still not 
sure whether or not
he wanted to talk about his godfather yet; his wishes varied with his 
mood. He knew one
thing, though: unhappy as he felt at the moment, he would greatly miss 
Hogwarts in a few
days' time when he was back at number four, Privet Drive. Even though 
he now understood
exactly why he had to return there every summer, he did not feel any 
better about it. Indeed,
he had never dreaded his return more."

For perspective, this paragraph occurs after Harry sits alone down by 
the lake and cries about Sirius, and before he finds the mirror and has 
the conversation with NHN.

So . . . Hermione wants to talk to Harry about Sirius . . . and Ron 
*stops* her?!  Of course, ideally, Ron has a point -- it's probably 
better to wait awhile and see if Harry comes to them when he's ready.  
Yet, there are two major factors that make the Sit-Back-And-Wait 
approach a Bad Idea.  A) Harry's going back to Privet Dr. *very* soon, 
where he gets absolutely zero emotional support and is cut off from his 
friends and the WW in general. (Nevermind the fact that being there 
depresses him under the best of circumstances, let alone with the death 
of a friend/father figure weighing on his conscience.)  B) Since when 
has Harry *ever* asked for help, especially the emotional kind?

If Book Six rolls around and Harry is (once again) battling depression 
and self-doubt to the point that he blows up at innocent bystanders, I 
will not be one bit surprised or disappointed with him.  Because, you 
know what?  They *aren't* innocent.  Harry's friends and mentors know 
him well enough, I think, to recognize when he needs help and to 
understand that he doesn't know how to ask for it.  Yet, somehow, when 
our boy really *needs* somebody, everyone around him is either too 
afraid to confront him or under orders from Dumbledore not to talk to 
him.

Strange, huh?

Laura (who leaves this rather rant-y post grumbling that at least 
Hermione *wanted* to try and that Dumbledore is *so* grooming Harry to 
be a good solider.)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 31 05:08:59 2004
From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 05:08:59 -0000
Subject: Is Hermione Supposed to be a Genius?
In-Reply-To: <69F51DF4-82CA-11D8-94CF-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu>
Message-ID: <c4djpb+70k2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94617

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Laura Ingalls Huntley 
<lhuntley at f...> wrote:

> Just out of curiosity, how do you SHIP?  I think I've noticed a 
> tendency in male Hermione fans to be H/H, but as we have so few 
> representatives of the Y-chromosome here, it's difficult to tell 
if 
> there's an actual correlation.

Well, I'll hedge by saying that:

1- I don't really ship (well, maybe socially)
2- I'd prefer to say that I'm *not* R/H (although my reading seems 
to indicate otherwise)...but then that only (plausibly)leaves:
3- H/H...although Hermione has shown a weakness for handsomeness, 
and HP has not really been described as handsome.*

In reality I don't know. The handsomeness thing throws a big 
wrench/spanner into my thinking on this matter. I shall cogitate and 
report back any suitable results.

-Joe in SoFla, who'd've preferred to have GoF read: 

"Ten points from Gryffindor, Granger!" Snape snarled as a girl ran 
past him. "And ten points from Ravenclaw, too, Garcia!" :-)

* But who HAS? Sirius, at least as "once-handsome," and Cedric...was 
Lockhart? anyone else?




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 31 05:10:26 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 05:10:26 -0000
Subject: Why DD might not want Snape for DADA job
In-Reply-To: <c4c366+41ua@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4djs2+uadh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94618

Viridis wrote:
I still think he reason is very mundane: Snape is a former 
criminal, possibly a murderer. Would somebody sentenced for shooting 
people get a licence for shooting school? As much as Snape is 
knowledgeable about (DA)DA, Dumble will be chin deep in letters from 
protesting parents, once the word would leak (and it would, sooner 
or later, trust Rita&co). Than he'd probale have to sack Snape for 
good.
> > 
> 
Potioncat responded: Well, if someone committed murder with a gun, I
wouldn't want them teaching poisons either. <snip>

Carol:
An accused person who is cleared of all charges by a court is not a
criminal, and I'm quite sure that Dumbledore wouldn't hire a murderer
(Barty Crouch, the would-be murderer, was an imposter). As Potioncat
seems to be saying, Potions is quite as dangerous as DADA, and Snape
could "accidentally" poison a student quite easily. Instead, he
carries a vial of antidote in his robes for every class. He also could
easily have "accidentally" killed Lupin through a misstep in the
complicated wolfbane potion. Instead he dutifully prepares it and
makes sure he drinks it, going after him on the one occasion when he
forgets. I have no doubt whatever that Snape is a dangerous man, one
whom Dumbledore wants on his own side, but he isn't a criminal and I
very much doubt that DD would have hired him, much less trusted him
with difficult missions outside the school, if he had ever performed
one of the Unforgiveable Curses. (What did he do for Voldy? IMO he
made complicated and possibly deadly potions.)

Carol




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 31 05:22:14 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 05:22:14 -0000
Subject: Is Hermione Supposed to be a Genius?
In-Reply-To: <c4c7pu+cuv9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4dki6+5prc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94619

JoAnna said:  
> Wonderful posts, all.  I'm in the "Hermione is indeed a very 
> intelligent witch, if not a genius" camp myself.  I'm sure that she 
> will in some way contribute to LV's downfall, and her intelligence 
> will be her contribution (I think she'll do something similar to 
> getting past the logic puzzle in SS/PS).  
> 
> She's definitely headed for Head Girl... though I do have my doubts 
> on who Head Boy will be.  (Right now I'm guessing either Harry, 
> Terry Boot, or Draco Malfoy - *maybe* Ron if he gets his act 
> together, but that's highly doubtful - the only reason I wonder is 
> due to Ron's vision in the Mirror of Erised.  He's already helped to 
> win the Quidditch Cup for Gryffindor, and I could see him eventually 
> becoming Quidditch Captain or at least co-captain - is Head Boyship 
> next?)


I think it's Hufflepuff's turn for a little glory. How about Ernie
Macmillan? he really seems the type, a bit like Percy but not afraid
to break a bad rule (Umbridge's) by joining the DA.

Carol




From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 31 05:23:21 2004
From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 05:23:21 -0000
Subject: The Trouble With "I don't think so."
In-Reply-To: <c4divg+fptv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4dkk9+dj2j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94620

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" 
<justcarol67 at y...> wrote:

> I agree with Jessa. "I don't *think* so" in this context means
> "absolutely not."

I'm not entirely convinced this is so (not entirely convinced it 
ISN'T, either), for the simple reason that a phrase like "absolutely 
not" is not open to a broad spectrum of interpretation, but a phrase 
like "Erm...I don't think so" has other possible, plausible ways of 
being examined.

It could mean:

* "Snape? A vampire? What utter rubbish!"
* "Well, sure, he's a vampire but he doesn't like hanging around 
with any of them, if you'll forgive the expression."
* "I left some clues, but I haven't decided if he'll be a vampire, a 
bat animagus or just a member of the Bela Lugosi fan club."
* "He takes a potion that keeps his vampirism in remission,which is 
good because he is deeply in denial of the whole thing."


> If JKR thinks Snape has no connection with vampires,
> then he has none.

But she could be saying he has no associations with OTHER vampires, 
not that he hasn't associations with vampirism. (What, are vampires 
gregarious?)

-Joe in SoFla who hasn't been convinced either way




From willowsgreyghost at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 31 03:58:54 2004
From: willowsgreyghost at yahoo.com (Vickey)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 19:58:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Underage magic enforcement
In-Reply-To: <c4cst2+vos9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040331035854.74984.qmail@web14802.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94621



rhabenh <rhobbs at intergate.com> wrote:
>I don't think anyone saw him do it other than Bellatrix, >but who saw
>him cast the patronus at the beginning of the book?  >Dudley was there
>but his eyes were closed, so he technically didn't see >it.  Also there
>were no magical people there when Dobby floated the >pudding, yet he
>got the notice in minutes.  Maybe they are only watched >while at home?



I would say that the reason they traced the pudding and patronus was because he was alone with no other wizards around, but at the MoM there were all kinds of witches and wizards, good and bad, old and young....how would they know who cast the spell?
Vickey




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From enigma_only at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 31 04:13:13 2004
From: enigma_only at hotmail.com (fiondavhar)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 04:13:13 -0000
Subject: Ottery St-Catchpole and Wizard War II
In-Reply-To: <c4d69s+t642@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4dggp+5onj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94622

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" 
<justcarol67 at y...> wrote:
> Bonny wrote:

> > So far as I can tell, there must be two Fawcett girls (at least) one 
> > in Ravenclaw (who tried to cross Dumbledores age line and came out 
> > with a beard) and one in Hufflepuff (who was blasted out of a rose 
> > bush by Snape). I believe I have heard them mentioned before as
> well, but I don't have time to re-read the series right now and make sure.
> ><snip>
>  maybe it is with one of these girls that Harry will have a 
> > little romance; we already know that Ms. Fawcett of Hufflepuff isn't 
> > opposed to a little kissing <snip>

> Carol:
> I like your reasoning and agree that we'll be seeing Miss Fawcett in
> Book 6, but I think there's only one of her. The girl in the
> rosebushes in GoF is a Ravenclaw (adventurously kissing a Hufflepuff boy):
> 
> "Ten points from Ravenclaw, Fawcett!" Snape snarled as a girl ran past
> him. "And ten points from Hufflepuff, too, Stebbins!" (GoF 426).


Bonny writes now: 

Which edition of the book are you reading, Carol? Because I am 
referencing from the canadian printing, raincoast publishing, and in 
my book the above quote is written as such:

  "Ten points from Hufflepuff, Fawcett!' Snape snarled, as a girl ran 
past him. 'And ten points from Ravenclaw, too, Stebbins!' as a boy 
went rushing after her."

That is on page 371. I am assuming there must be an error in one or 
the other of our copies.

Carol:
 
> This is almost certainly the same girl who tried to overstep the age
> line and earned a beard for doing so. I'm guessing she's the same girl
> who got a nosebleed in the duel scene in CoS (mentioned by another
> poster to this thread), though her house isn't mentioned there so we
> don't know for sure. 
> 
> This girl could be the same age as Harry (Gryffindor and Ravenclaw
> don't have any classes together in Harry's year, which would explain
> why we haven't seen much of her), but since she's not in the Sorting
> Hat scene in SS/PS, I'm guessing she's in a different year. (True, the
> Sorting Hat scene jumps from Bulstrode to Finch-Fletchley, but I don't
> think she'd have been omitted if she were going to play a role later.)
> She appears first in CoS, so she has to be at least Ginny's age, and
> she was too young to cross the age line, so she can't be more than a
> few months older than Fred and George. If she's going to be appear in
> Book 6, she's probably a year younger than the twins, which would make
> her a seventh year in Book 6 (a year ahead of Harry). 
> 
> I don't think Miss Fawcett will be a love interest for Harry (though
> she'd be a lot more fun than Cho), but she sounds like just the person
> to switch houses in Book 6 (Ravenclaw to Gryffindor). I, for one, am
> curious about her. Too bad Harry isn't!


Bonny now: 

I agree, too bad Harry isn't! I am very curious about her (or them, 
depending on which copy is correct). I think you are right about her 
not being in Harry's year as well, based on her not being mentioned 
at the sorting. 

One thing I find interesting is that Miss Fawcett the Ravenclaw will 
certainly know Luna Lovegood, and vice versa, being in the same 
house. Perhaps that is how she will be introduced to book 6, perhaps 
over the summer... Maybe Luna will bring her to the Burrow? She 
(Luna) has obviously struck up a friendship with 
Ginny/Ron/Hermione/Harry/Neville after the events at the ministry of 
magic, and, being so near, I would be suprised they were not somehow 
united during the summer holidays, either in this book or the next. 

As for Miss Fawcett being the one to change houses, I suppose it is 
possible, but I almost think it would more likley be Luna. Sure, she 
is the obvious candidate, but really, all of her friends that we know 
of are in Gryffindor. She has also proven herself to be very brave, 
not so particularly Ravenclaw-esqe, and ostracized by her peers 
because of her "oddities" which are more likley to be overlooked in 
Gryffindor. ALso, Miss Fawcett, if we are indeed correct on guessing 
her year, is unlikely to wait until 7th year to switch houses. And 
then of course there is the possibility that it might be someone we 
havn't thought of that switches.

Oh, and just one more thought on the Ottery thing - the Otter is 
Hermione's patronus, the thing that protects her; what if she, being 
a muggle-born and also top of the school, enemy to Draco, and close 
to Harry, is singled out for attack? If she is at the Burrow all 
summer, perhaps that is what will draw the attack upon the wizarding 
families of the village - the wizarding families of the Otter valley 
will protect her, just like her patronus. Too far-fetched????

Bonny





From enigma_only at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 31 04:23:53 2004
From: enigma_only at hotmail.com (fiondavhar)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 04:23:53 -0000
Subject: Ottery St-Catchpole and Wizard War II
In-Reply-To: <c4c1kd+37si@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4dh4p+omho@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94623

> Bonny:
> 
Snip
> 
> A catchpole is a sherrif's officer, particulary one that arrests 
> debtors. 
> 
> So far as I can tell, there is no "Saint" Catchpole in real life. 
> 
> So the question is, who is the Sherrif, and who are his officers, and 
> who is the debtor? Depends which side of the spectrum we are looking 
> at.

Snip

Bonny again, anew:

Just had an idea about the sherrifs officers and the debtor! Who do 
we know, undeniably, is on the run because of debts he is unable to 
discharge of? Ludo Bagman! Who is after him? The Goblins. And who 
else does he owe money (though the liklihood that he will ever pay 
them is nil)? Fred and George. And they live in Ottery St. Catchpole. 

I am not entirley sure what I am getting at here, but it is likley 
JKR chose the name Catchpole for a reason. 

Can anyone make more sense of this than I have just attempted?

Bonny





From willowsgreyghost at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 31 04:17:25 2004
From: willowsgreyghost at yahoo.com (Vickey)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 20:17:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ollivander a Dragon Slayer?
In-Reply-To: <c4d49q+edt2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040331041725.66940.qmail@web14812.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94624


justcarol67 <justcarol67 at yahoo.com> wrote:
Chelle wrote:
> My ex had this theory that Ollivander and the original >Ollivander on
> his sign are one and the same.

Carol:
>As for Mr. Ollivander having been alive since 382 B.C., >Nicholas
>Flamel needed the elixir of life to live to 666 (or >whatever his age
>was at the end of SS/PS). Also, the sign in Mr. >Ollivander's shop
>window says "Makers of fine wands since 382 B.C." (SS >Am. ed. 82) so
>there must have been more than one Ollivander. (In fact, >I hope Mr. O.
>has a son or daughter to keep the business going after >he dies since
>he seems to be the only wandmaker worth his salt in >Britain.)


 

Maybe Ollivander is a vampire....he doesn't need to go out in the daylight to sell wands....hmmmm....probably not, but there is something fishy about him...he remembers every wand he ever sold and he was selling them when Tom Riddle bought his.  Question here is this: Dumbledore says that even his friends didn't recognize that LV and TR are the same...how did Ollivander know that LV was the same as TR who bought the brother wand to Harry's?

Vickey



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From EyeMelodius at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 31 05:19:48 2004
From: EyeMelodius at hotmail.com (annunathradien)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 05:19:48 -0000
Subject: Ollivanders' origin (the origin of Voldemort and Slytherin?  382 BC?)
In-Reply-To: <c4d6ro+36d5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4dkdk+gu8v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94625

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" <nkafkafi at y...> 
wrote:
> Carol:
> <snip>
> Also, the sign in Mr. Ollivander's shop
> window says "Makers of fine wands since 382 B.C." (SS Am. ed. 82) so
> there must have been more than one Ollivander. 

I'm sure this has been pointed out at the list before (this is my 
first post btw and hello to you all), despite it's rather obscene 
randomness, but one of the more noteworthy events of 382 B.C. was the 
birthdate of Philip II of Macedon (within the region of Macedonia, 
bordering Greece and Bulgaria).  Philip II was the father of 
Alexander the Great (who, if you know your history, had many 
qualities similar to Voldemort/Tom Riddle.  Ambition for power at a 
very young age.  Crafty and dubious beyond his years.  Gained power 
quickly.  [Possibly] Committed patricide.  Modern opinion is sharply 
divided in regards to Alexander, some viewed him as a great leader 
and builder of an empire... others as a ruthless dictator, not unlike 
Hitler or Napoleon).  As I said, all this is random, but intriguing 
if there are metaphors here between Alexander/Voldemort/Ollivander, 
Ollivander descended from someone of import (Philip II?) of ancient 
Macedon and/or Ollivander himself is an Ancient Macedonian.

Note:  As we know, Bulgaria is the home of Durmstrang which is a 
Wizarding school specializing in teaching the Dark Arts.  Dark Arts 
are synonymous with Voldemort.  

Phonetically, "Alexander" and "Ollivander" sound somewhat similar.  
Same amount of syllables.  Both end in "ander".  Then again, that 
doesn't really say anything specific or go anywhere.  Unless there's 
some implication Alexander the Great and Ollivander are related in 
some form, which could be interesting but not sure how much impact 
that would have over the Harry Potter universe in general (unless 
it's just metaphors and not anything literal).  Ollivander referred 
to Voldemort doing "great" but terrible things.  Random craziness, 
but could there be a possible metaphor here between Voldemort and 
Alexander?  Alexander = Ollivander?  Ollivander = Voldemort?  I 
realize I'm stretching and somewhat vague with all of these comments 
(Some first post!  I'm going off on all these insane tangents), so 
none of these could be considered very sound theories.  Just 
brainstorming.

Hypoethetically speaking, if Ollivander and Voldemort are one in the 
same - even if it's just metaphoric - Ollivander's creation of wands 
for use by most wizards in the wizarding world I could as a different 
take or interpretation of the Rings of Power in the "Lord of the 
Rings" trilogy.  All the "rings" were created by "Sauron the 
Deciever" and all made to subjegate the dominant races of Middle 
Earth.  Ollivander's wands = the rings of power?  What a scary 
thought indeed if Ollivander (aka, an or the origin of evil?) had or 
could have power over all (or most) of the wands in the wizarding 
world in some form.  Obviously, the very major hole in this theory is 
Voldemort himself has only existed for about 50 years (give or take) 
and was an "heir" to "Slytherin's glorious work".  Which would lean 
more towards the metaphoric in regards to any similarity, in theory.  
382 B.C. far outdates Voldemort *and* Salazar Slytherin.  Unless of 
course, Ollivander is the originator and Voldemort and Slytherin are 
descendants from him.  Ollivander himself is the origin of this great 
evil?  Voldemort was continuing Slytherin's work.  Slytherin was 
continuing those before him who originated their work from the 
source, Ollivander?  However, it's awfully late in the ballgame IMO 
to essentially turn Voldemort into the deputy of evil, Slytherin the 
sheriff and Ollivander (who we know almost nothing about) the mayor.  
Which makes this whole heirarchy of evil idea rather grossly 
implausible, but then so are most of my other theories in this post.  

Ollivander, I'll note and I'm sure all of you are aware, is an 
anagram for "An Evil Lord".  Which could automatically imply a 
connection to Voldemort, but not necessarily is Voldemort himself.

> Neri:
> ..."Ollivander" doesn't 
> sound British....

In other thoughts, "Ollivander" initially sounds and looks more 
nordic or germanic to me.  Especially looking at the "van der" 
portion.  "Van der" in Dutch means "from the".  "Olli" is actually a 
form of Olaf (Olaf means "descendant" or "ancestor" in germanic, if 
I'm not mistaken).  Of course, once again, that doesn't seem to go 
anywhere.  

Tying this in to my previous Macedonian comments.  Is it 
possible "Ollivander" changed his name as one (of several?) means to 
hide his true origins or identity?  The shop itself, or his true 
purpose (whatever that may be), has existed since 382 B.C., but it 
wasn't always technically called "Ollivander's", but something 
grammatically/phonetically similar?  Not necessarily saying his 
original name is "Alexander" or he himself is Alexander the Great, 
but that the name could possibly derive from Alexander - as I've 
said - as a metaphor (whether JK is using a literary device and/or 
we're to assume Ollivander is paying homage to another 
conqueror/ruler) to this ancient powerful leader.

Annunathradien





From siskiou at msn.com  Wed Mar 31 05:41:03 2004
From: siskiou at msn.com (Susanne)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 21:41:03 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry enjoying his friends pain (was: Harry's disposition)
In-Reply-To: <c4d5rr+d8pf@eGroups.com>
References: <c4a0ag+r3vo@eGroups.com> <c4d5rr+d8pf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <425311029.20040330214103@msn.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94626



Hi,

Tuesday, March 30, 2004, 5:11:23 PM, nkafkafi wrote:

> The real issue 
> IMO is the fact that in OotP, Harry takes pleasure in his friends'
> pain.

I guess I'm not getting too worried, because I feel that
there are very few, if any, humans on earth who can
truthfully say they've never had this momentary feeling.

This "serves you right" feeling, or coming back with a
cutting remark after getting hurt by something the other
person said or did.

I don't think this turns Harry into someone sinister, unless
it becomes more and more prevalent, and he decides to act on
these feelings, thinking them justified.

It was the same with Ron's one instance of letting jealousy
blind him. He'd never shown any signs before, and I thought
it was humanly impossible for him to not have an occasional
pang of envy, sometimes.

But even though he hasn't made it a habit, it is still held
against him very much by many readers, so maybe Harry will
fall into the same trap, now?

Faults are hailed as okay, but when it really comes down to
it... ;)

-- 
Best regards,
 Susanne                           mailto:siskiou at msn.com







From dicentra at xmission.com  Wed Mar 31 06:02:53 2004
From: dicentra at xmission.com (Dicentra spectabilis)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 06:02:53 -0000
Subject: All Things Green II, results
In-Reply-To: <c37fbo+hfet@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4dmud+gj9e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94627

It's time to announce the results of the All Things Green II contest.

Slyths -- 0 (zero)
Puffs -- 3
Gryffs -- 6
Claws -- 12

::claps hands; blue and bronze hangings appear in the Great Hall;
presents virtual trophy to Ravenclaw House::

(It might have not been altogether clear, but the limit was three
entries per person, so if you submitted more, I counted only the first
three.)

Well, well, well.  It would appear that the house whose color is green
has failed to take an interest in this contest.  How ironic! :D

Until next year!

--Dicey Elf





From Batchevra at aol.com  Wed Mar 31 06:24:15 2004
From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 01:24:15 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
Message-ID: <7d.4a61ae77.2d9bbe0f@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94628


I think and hope that Lupin came to this realization on his own and
that he was already prepared to resign even if Snape hadn't let his
students know what he thought they had a right to know. (Note that he
maintained his silence until Lupin failed to take the Potion and
actually turned into a werewolf.)

Carol


Lupin had already turned into a werewolf at least 8 times during the school 
year, he was careful to take the potion in the week preceeding his 
transformation and including the day of him transforming. The thing was is that Snape was 
revealing the information out of spite. He didn't get the Order of Merlin 
first class. Look, Lupin was distracted that night by what he saw on the map, his 
old friend Sirius and Pettigrew, seeing them go down into the Whomping Willow. 
Think about it, the fact that Lupin and his friends had gone into the 
Shrieking Shack during their school days, and seeing this after 12 years of believing 
that one was dead by the hand of the other, drove taking the potion out of 
his head. 

Batchevra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From annemehr at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 31 06:42:10 2004
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 06:42:10 -0000
Subject: Harry's disposition -Suburban Wasteland
In-Reply-To: <39CE6097-82D1-11D8-94CF-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu>
Message-ID: <c4dp82+p0s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94629

::Annemehr wages internal battle with self; loses::

I agree!  I agree with Ms Mo Me, bboy_mn and Laura!


> Steve (bboy_mn) about what happened after GoF:

> > As always, Herry is left ALONE to deal with the situation on
> > his own. "Stiff upper lip" and all that be damned, don't these people
> > have brains, or hearts, for that matter. It didn't occur to anyone
> > that Harry might need some support to deal with that trama? OOOOH
> > NOOOOO! Just let him work it out on his own.

Laura:
> Notice that this is also pretty much what happens at the end of OotP -- 
> Harry's just lost someone *very* important to him due to circumstances 
> that are at least partially his own fault . . . and the people closest 
> to him just ship him back to Privet Drive like everything's normal.  

Annemehr:
I'm willing to suspend my judgment this one more time.  I'm willing to
wait until book 6 to see if anyone actually does see to Harry, even
though I fully *expected* that in the beginning of book 5 and didn't
get it.  :P  If he has to learn to master his emotions, fine, but I
also want him to learn what "unconditional love" means.

<snip bboy_mn's summary of how Harry's thoughts can run off the rails
without guidance>
 
> Steve:
> <SNIP>
> > Given the hellishly tramatic things Harry has experienced, and the
> > absolutely horrible (near criminal in my book) support he has been
> > given by the people he trusts, it's a complete wonder that Harry is as
> > well adjusted as he is.

Annemehr:
It's the same thing that keeps him alive, I guess -- a certain
stubbornness or refusal to give up.  It upheld his sense of self-worth
during his life with the Dursleys and kept him fighting in the
Graveyard even though he "knew" he was going to die.  It kept him
silently writing "I must not tell lies" into his hand but also made
him fight for the lives of his friends in the DoM.  It may be partly
stamped out of him by now, but I hope not permanently, cos he's going
to need it.

 
> Laura (who leaves this rather rant-y post grumbling that at least 
> Hermione *wanted* to try and that Dumbledore is *so* grooming Harry to 
> be a good solider.)

Annemehr (who thinks Hermione is the one responsible for the King's
Cross sendoff, but we'll probably never know, and who's suspending
judgment on Dumbledore these days)




From gbannister10 at aol.com  Wed Mar 31 06:57:48 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 06:57:48 -0000
Subject: Stupid things characters do to the sake of the plot
In-Reply-To: <c4ceim+6gf0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4dq5c+sh2u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94630

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Robert Jones" 
<jones.r.h.j at w...> wrote:
> I finished rereading COS last night, and I noticed that some of the 
> characters do stupid things for which there is no explanation 
except 
> that they are necessary to advance the plot.  Here are two examples 
> from COS.
> 
<heavily snipped>

Geoff:
But haven't you ever done something in a moment of stress and thought 
afterwards, "Why did I do that? How daft."

A couple of years ago, I was out with my dogs and one of them got 
caught in a wire fence and, in fright, bit me badly. I had a mobile 
phone with me and rang home to ask my wife to contact a friend to 
bring wire cutters. Later, she said to me "Why did you ring home? You 
know Peter's phone number from memory? You could have saved time by 
ringing him directly." 

True. I just went into flap mode which is precisely what Ron did. 
Harry suggested waiting by the car but Ron jumped at using it to 
catch up. 

Lockhart also appears to be in flap mode when Ron and Harry confront 
him; throwing clothes and belongings into a trunk, rushing around 
madly.........




From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net  Wed Mar 31 07:12:00 2004
From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 01:12:00 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] OT: Drill Sargeant (with a tiny bit of ontopic talk...)
References: <c4del8+iqi2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <005a01c416ef$76445100$05030f04@dslverizon.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 94631

Neri:
Speaking as someone who had several "asshole" drill sergeants, my personal
opinion is that this method of training is extremely counterproductive, and
the fact that armies around the world keep using it just goes to show that
armies are extremely conservative institutions who would rather use an
ineffective method of training
than break a sacred tradition. The main objective of the asshole sergeant is
to punish his poor trainees for the humiliations he had suffered from his
own asshole sergeant at the time. I was sincerely hoping that the WW has
managed to avoid this ugly muggle tradition, as it seems to have managed
avoiding male chauvinism.

{Silverthorne}
Um....*most* of the people I've talked to who have been in the military and
have also had these people for training would strongly disagree, Neri. Three
of them are women, including my lifemate (If I say 'wife', will that help to
make that point clearer?). . The method is not there to 'punish' the
trainees for something the Sergeant went through himself (ALA "Full Metal
Jacket"). All of the people I know and talk to, but for one, uniformly agree
that the training was effective, got the job done, and prepared them for
life as a military person. They also agreed that it was tough, painful until
they 'got' what the Sergeant was trying to teach them, and could sometimes
be humiliating--especially when the whole unit ended up 'paying' for one
team member's mess up by joining in on the punishment (Anything from situps
to cleaning various places at camps...with, yes, toothbrushes.). Their
attitude is that it is a time-honored method that works....as for the one
that didn't agree--this guy can barely keep his own house clean as a
civilain...I've actually had to make trails through the crap on his
floor....and the last time I visited him, I ended up doing the dishes in the
sink for him--some of which still had food in them...from three months ago.
Yuck. The guy, in short, is not much for discipline.

I think that you also missed the part where I said that military is not for
everyone, nor are the methods. (just as most kids cna blow off Snape...and
the few like Neville cannot)

Neri:
It is definitely true that a soldier should train performing his role under
extreme pressure, but only after he had mastered it. Learning any new skill
under this kind of pressure is next to impossible.

{Silverthone}
Hmmmmm...then the military really *has* changed. Odd....maybe I should go
review Air Force training with my cousin Jason Nygren, see what exactly he
went through to get his wings...because the other three branches seem to
share a less...um...stress free method. (That would be Navy (Grandfather,
Lifemate, 2 co-workers), Marines (Uncle, best friend, boyfriend, 1
co-worker), Army (Three former boyfriends, 2 female friends, three
co-workers).

Neri:
Although this is probably OT, I simply must mention here that the best
commander I ever had was my drill sergeant during basic training. He was
down right scary. We all called him "The Nazi" behind his back and he knew
it; in fact he cultivated this faade.

{Silverthorne}
As do a majority of the trainers, including the appearently real flaming
'assholes'. During basic, they are not there to be your friend. They're
there to get you prepared. Popularity is not on these trainers minds, nor is
having a social life with the young pups. It's their job to be hated--the
'surrogate enemy' as it were--that way you'll know what to do with the real
enemy once you meet it...Perhaps I should have included a few ancedotes
where I was told about the times when my friends and family ended up going
out for a beer with their Sergeant after graduation and the like (including
the ones that told them was pieces of s*** they were, how thier momma must
have taught them wrong, etc etc ect...infront of god and everyone no
less)...^^; Incidently...they also say they've had 'Snape' as trainers
before. Weren't bothered a bit...

Neri:
took us the whole three months to realize what a great and hilarious person
he was behind this facade. While being extremely frightening, he never
humiliated any of us in front of the others, nor alone for that matter. He
is my living proof that it is possible to be a great drill sergeant without
being an "asshole" drill sergeant.

{Silverthorne}
One person's humiliation is another's no-brainer. Some people consider being
asked to 'get down and give me fifty' for a mistake a humiliation...and they
get even more bent out of shape when the rest of the team gets in trouble
with them (Forgetting that the message there is "You screw up, we'll all get
in trouble"). Just as some people could handle Snape's snark and get on with
life without it affecting them one little bit other than being annoyed by it
while some are left quivering in the dust. Neri, other then the
'humiliation' part, you actaully *proved* my point (with the Sergeant Nazi
ancedote--'he was downright scary' and 'he cultivated this facade') rather
then refuted it.

As for how that all relates to Snape and his methods--basically, he's in
Drill Sergeant mode, but he's not in a military camp. So...yep...he's a
monster. At least to our little muggle eyes. Carol brought up a good point
though--the WW is not the kind gentle place we live in (or would like
to)...so...*shrugs* Maybe what we find abhorent and would never want for our
non-military children is not a problem for the WW parents...

Anne






From EnsTren at aol.com  Wed Mar 31 07:42:18 2004
From: EnsTren at aol.com (EnsTren at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 02:42:18 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] OT: Drill Sargeant (with a tiny bit of ontopic talk...)
Message-ID: <332E5197.7F01D135.00170183@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94632

In a message dated 3/31/2004 2:12:00 AM Eastern Standard Time, silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net writes:

> Neri:
> It is definitely true that a soldier should train performing his role under
> extreme pressure, but only after he had mastered it. Learning any new skill
> under this kind of pressure is next to impossible.
> 
> {Silverthone}
> Hmmmmm...then the military really *has* changed. Odd....maybe I should go
> review Air Force training with my cousin Jason Nygren, see what exactly he
> went through to get his wings...because the other three branches seem to
> share a less...um...stress free method. (That would be Navy (Grandfather,
> Lifemate, 2 co-workers), Marines (Uncle, best friend, boyfriend, 1
> co-worker), Army (Three former boyfriends, 2 female 
> friends, three
> co-workers).


As I am a Psyc major and studing learning at the moment I thought I might chip in.

Humans learn quickly when our lives depend upon it, it's a natural reaction.  If you are in iminante danger of getting physically harmed or killed your brain and body kick into overdrive, which is why craming and doing it the night before it's due papers sometimes work for people.  When you're on your last leg most people perform better.

You lean faster and it gets embeded deeper into you.  Army Training /deliberetly/ takes advantage of this.  The Drill Sargeant is there, in your face, yelling at you inorder to convince your subconconcious that Yes, you are going to suffer horribly if you don't learn this and quickly.

To get back On Topic, with Nevile...well he's in so much fear he's going to die he can cognate this (sort of) and thus it effects his performance/attention.

In Harry's case...well, honestly I think it's partially snape's fault for it, he's so combative/angry he can't respect snape and can't learn.  If Snape hadn't singled him out and etc etc Harry might have been more willing to learn.  As it is, well, I think, though the armed forced experts can correct me, if Harry tried his attitude/reaction set with a Drill Sargeant, and he was a recruit as opposed to a student, he'd get kicked out.



From a_williams1 at pacific.edu  Wed Mar 31 07:53:04 2004
From: a_williams1 at pacific.edu (Aesha Williams)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 23:53:04 -0800
Subject: use of brooms
References: <1080605796.11036.39746.m8@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <004501c416f5$332e7de0$871d0f0a@bre.uop.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 94633

Weirdsister's post:

>Does flying a broomstick involve the use of magic?  
>
>Underage wizards are able to fly during school holidays without reprimand from the Improper Use of >Magic Office.  Ron and his brothers practice quidditch, the little children flew mini-brooms during the >Quidditch World Cup, and Harry escaped from Privet Dr on his broom in OotP.  If flying a broom >does not involve magic, and the broom is merely a mode of transport like a portkey or floo powder, >can muggles fly?  What if a muggle picked up a portkey or tried to use floo powder?

    Now Aesha:

I think that the brooms that wizards use are charmed flying objects; it's not because you're magical that you can fly on them. So yes, I think that if a muggle were to come across one it might move a bit- I don't know if it'd do a lot, because they don't erally know how to use it. They'd have to mount it, be able to get it off the ground, etc. Same as with a portkey- I think Mrs. Figg or the Grangers could use one, if they happened to come across one- and picked it up or were holding it at *exactly* the right moment it went off. I mean, it's not that much different from charmed objects that are used for muggle baiting, or somehow find their way out of the wizarding world, right?

Mandy said:

>I expect poor Remus has to live a celibate life to  avoid the result and what ever the result it can't be >pretty.

Hmmm, well, I've never been interested in slash, but now for some reason I loooove the Sirius/Lupin theory. So maybe our boy Remus is okay. :)

Aesha


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Wed Mar 31 08:17:10 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 31 Mar 2004 10:17:10 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Hermione Supposed to be a Genius?
Message-ID: <20040331081710.43BEE1FCD87@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 94634

> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jdr0918" <jdr0918 at h...> wrote:
> > Remember, our Hermione is a *bitch*. 
> 
> Siriusly Snapey Susan:
> I'm sorry, JDR, but I think this goes way too far.  It might be nice 
> if you were to phrase this as an opinion.  Some of us actually kinda 
> like Hermione....

Don't worry, Susan, Sargeant is quite a Hermione fan, who likes her *because* she is a *bitch*. And, frankly speaking, Hermione is a *bitch* in a sense as one could call iron-fisted female boss like that. 

Cheers, Viridis (quite a "Bushy-head" fan, too)

________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!



From jujupoet29 at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 31 08:24:58 2004
From: jujupoet29 at hotmail.com (sienna291973)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 08:24:58 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Harry_enjoying_his_friends=92_pain_(was:_Harry's_disposition)?=
In-Reply-To: <425311029.20040330214103@msn.com>
Message-ID: <c4dv8q+2rfv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94635

> Tuesday, March 30, 2004, 5:11:23 PM, nkafkafi wrote:

> > The real issue 
> > IMO is the fact that in OotP, Harry takes pleasure in his 
friends'
> > pain.

Susanne:
> I guess I'm not getting too worried, because I feel that
> there are very few, if any, humans on earth who can
> truthfully say they've never had this momentary feeling.
> 
> This "serves you right" feeling, or coming back with a
> cutting remark after getting hurt by something the other
> person said or did.
> 
> I don't think this turns Harry into someone sinister, unless
> it becomes more and more prevalent, and he decides to act on
> these feelings, thinking them justified.
> 
> It was the same with Ron's one instance of letting jealousy
> blind him. He'd never shown any signs before, and I thought
> it was humanly impossible for him to not have an occasional
> pang of envy, sometimes.

Sienna:

I have to agree here. I personally thought that it was a very well 
crafted reaction on JKR's part.  As I was reading it, the feeling 
that she was describing came very clearly into my memory.  I think 
it's safe to say that we have all, and not just once, felt this way 
at some point.

As I said before, I consider that he is an amazingly compassionate 
and understanding person given that he has never had anyone to learn 
these things from. In addition, I believe he forgives his friends 
very easily (far more easily than I would have).  They are none of 
them operating under the extreme pressures that Harry is, and a 
little more foresight and compassion on their part would not be 
unwelcome. 

Ron's bout of jealousy in my opinion was far worse, because 
(frankly) he has none of the excuses that Harry does.

Sienna







From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Wed Mar 31 08:36:14 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 08:36:14 -0000
Subject: Snape's house
In-Reply-To: <c47h24+r09j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4dvtu+6jc0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94636

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jlv230" <jlv230 at y...> wrote:
> 
> snipped
> I know I am arguing against myself here, but it seems that Snape 
> wasn't very good at Quidditch anyway so his hopes of getting on the 
> team cannot have been great, if we take Snape's memories to be any 
> guide:
> "suddenly Harry's mind was teeming with memories that were not his: 
> ......a girl was laughing as a scrawny boy tried to mount a bucking 
> broomstick" OotP
> This passage always makes me feel very sorry for Snape though.  I 
> wonder why JKR chose these particular scenes?  It does show us that 
> Snape was very lonely, however, and would perhaps jump at the chance 
> to join an exclusive gang of Slytherins who hated the rest of the 
> world as much as he did.

I've long suspected that that this memory is not as straight-forward as
it appears. It's Snape's memory but is  it a memory *of* Snape?
Given that the feud between Sevvy and the Marauders was of long
standing, this could be something else.

James is the Quidditch hero, the broomstick supremo. What  better way
for Snape to humiliate  him in public than to curse his broomstick? 

IMO the scrawny boy is James, the laughing girl Lily.

Kneasy






From severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Mar 31 08:56:37 2004
From: severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk (severelysigune)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 08:56:37 -0000
Subject: The bucking broomstick (Was:  Snape's house)
In-Reply-To: <c4cl80+ov5l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4e145+vjhg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94637

Carol:
<<At least as an adult he has no trouble controlling his broom when 
he referees the Quidditch game in SS/PS. As we know from Harry's 
remarks, a good broom won't throw off its rider, so either this is 
not a good broom or it has a hex or jinx on it.  IMO it's not fear of 
flying or incompetence but stubborn unwillingness to let the (jinxed 
or faulty) broom control him (which the girl in the memory finds 
funny). 
Carol, who wishes she knew who the girl was>>

Potioncat: 
<< OK, who wants to start a Snape ship?
I'd vote on a young Hooch who continues to use her maiden name.  
After all, Hooch and brews just go together.

I think you have a good point, just because he had trouble that 
time, doesn't mean he never overcame it.  And we cannot take Sirius' 
comments about Snape's jealousy as fact.
Potioncat (who has a Mary Sue to nominate for cruise director.)>>

Sigune now:
Yes, I think you must be right, Carol - but I must confess to be a 
teensy bit disappointed. I did like the thought of Snape being not 
good at something like flying a broomstick. In any case I still find 
it hard to imagine he likes brooms as a means of transportation - he 
seems more of an Apparating type (much more magic, invisible and a 
little spectacular to my mind). 
My first interpretation of the Bucking Broomstick was that Snape 
couldn't fly very well; but in Quidditch Through The Ages it is of 
course stated explicitly that a Quidditch referee should be an expert 
broomsticks(wo)man. Bleh. I also loved to think the apparent 
unfairness of Snape's refereeing was in fact due to his faulty 
knowledge of Quidditch rules, though of course he would never admit 
that in public (or private, for that matter). But now I must agree 
with you and Potioncat.
Hmmm - yes, who can the girl be? I don't believe in Hooch. And I hope 
we'll find out more about the scene, which is quite possible, isn't 
it?

Yours severely,

Sigune
~ Snape non-shipper




From delwynmarch at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 31 09:01:11 2004
From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 09:01:11 -0000
Subject: Harry's disposition - the WW doesn't deal with pain
In-Reply-To: <39CE6097-82D1-11D8-94CF-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu>
Message-ID: <c4e1cn+r3iv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94638

Laura Ingalls Huntley wrote:
 
(major snip, sorry, had to :-)

> So . . . Hermione wants to talk to Harry about Sirius . . . and 
> Ron *stops* her?!  

(minor snip)

> If Book Six rolls around and Harry is (once again) battling 
> depression and self-doubt to the point that he blows up at 
> innocent bystanders, I will not be one bit surprised or 
> disappointed with him.  Because, you know what?  They *aren't* 
> innocent.  Harry's friends and mentors know him well enough, I 
> think, to recognize when he needs help and to understand that he 
> doesn't know how to ask for it.  Yet, somehow, when our boy really 
> *needs* somebody, everyone around him is either too afraid to 
> confront him or under orders from Dumbledore not to talk to him.
> 
> Strange, huh?

Del :

Maybe not actually :-(
I've been thinking about this, while reading the various posts of 
this thread which all make very good points. And it became more and 
more obvious that there's a very simple answer to all those points : 
there's no such thing as emotional or psychological support in the 
WW. Not just for Harry I mean, but for *anyone*.

We all keep wondering why Harry, or Sirius, or whoever, doesn't get 
the emotional support they need. But in the books, nobody seems to 
care or wonder about it. It just seems that people are *expected* to 
just swallow whatever is thrown at them, smile, and go on. I mean, 
how many times do we see anyone offering any kind of support to 
someone else ? It does happen, but it's very rare.

I can think of Mrs Weasley for example, but even she's not terribly 
good at it : she keeps wanting to hide things from Harry when 
knowledge would be his best weapon, she doesn't seem to realise how 
much help Sirius needs, she doesn't seem to see Ron's lack of self-
confidence, etc... (Don't get me wrong : I truly appreciate 
everything Molly does for Harry, and I wish I could personally thank 
her for that hug she gave him at the end of GoF.) I just mean to 
point out that she doesn't seem to be able to pinpoint very well who 
might be in need of help, and when, and how to give it. And she's 
the most caring person we know of in the entire WW... Scary, huh ?

The other one we see trying to help is Hermione. But Hermione is 
*Muggle-born* ! She was raised in a world where people are supposed 
to help friends in need, including emotionally. But because she's 
got no adults around her to help her figure out *how* to do it, 
she's sometimes too blunt about it, or on the contrary too subtle, 
and her efforts fail. Or sometimes, Ron, who was raised in the WW 
world, stops her, like in the example above.

One thing that really deeply struck me is that nobody among the 
students knows about Neville's parents. I remember wondering, way 
before GoF came out, how come Neville was raised by his Gran. I was 
a bit surprised that nobody asked him. It's the kind of thing we 
asked our friends/classmates when I was a kid. We didn't invade each 
other's lives, but we did know the basics : whose dad was dead, 
whose parents were divorced, etc... Of course, things like whose mom 
was in prison, or whose little brother was killed in a car accident 
didn't come out at first, but they often did in the end, after a few 
months. So when I read the St Mungo's scene in OoP, and realised 
that *nobody* at school, not even *Hermione*, knew about Neville's 
parents, I knew something was very different with the WW. Alice and 
Frank Longbottom were supposed to be very popular, what happened to 
them is supposed to have traumatised the WW, and yet not one single 
parent mentioned the thing to their kid !?!? Not even *Draco 
Malfoy*, who always knows everything before everyone else, seems to 
know about it, he never ever taunts Neville about it, and I don't 
see why he wouldn't if he knew. I think this is very telling of the 
WW's inability to face trauma and pain. They don't talk about it, 
they don't help victims, they just pretend nothing happened and 
expect victims to get better on their own.
I remember being so glad to see an adult (Moody) taking care of an 
obviously traumatised Neville after the Unforgivables lesson. But I 
also remember being *surprised* somehow. Now I know why : it never 
happened before (an adult giving spontaneous emotional support to 
one of the kids, I mean). The closest I can remember is McGonagall's 
gentleness with Harry and Ron when leading them to petrified 
Hermione, and you can't really call that emotional support, can 
you ? (I also remember being bitterly disappointed at the end of 
GoF, when it appeared that Fake!Moody had taken care of Neville only 
in order to advance his plans, but that's a whole other matter, and 
at least it *did* do some good to Neville !)

Just look at Cho as one last example if you're not convinced. The 
girl lost her boy-friend, she doesn't even know how, she suspects he 
might have been killed by a mass murderer, the whole WW acts as 
though it never happened, she's going out with the last person on 
Earth she should be dating in those circumstances, she's melting in 
big puddles every 5 feet, and yet I'm ready to bet the entire 
content of my vault in Gringotts that she never received any help 
beyond her mom's arms !!

Del




From severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Mar 31 09:36:37 2004
From: severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk (severelysigune)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 09:36:37 -0000
Subject: Why DD might not want Snape for DADA job
In-Reply-To: <c4ckrl+a0oh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4e3f5+dm7k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94639

Jo Ann wrote:

<lots of snipping of interesting stuff about Snape really being 
insecure>

<<Imagine the fiasco if Snape had tried to teach Neville how to fight 
a boggart...>>

Sigune now:
Hm - I'm not sure if I buy the Insecure!Snape argument - but I DO 
wonder, with you, how Snape would have tackled the boggart bit. I am 
thinking of Berit's thread on whether or not Snape has a sense of 
humour.
I seem to remember that someone asked JKR what shape Snape's boggart 
would take, and that she said answering that question would be giving 
away too much; but what interests me even more is how Snape would 
advise students to tackle a boggart, and, possibly even more, how he 
would fight his own. You obviously need some sense of humour to 
perform the Riddikulus spell. And I would just /love/ to see Snape 
making suggestions to his DADA students, forcing his own, no doubt 
twisted, sense of fun on them :).

Yours severely,

Sigune




From delwynmarch at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 31 09:39:28 2004
From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 09:39:28 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Harry_enjoying_his_friends=92_pain_(was:_Harry's_disposition)?=
In-Reply-To: <c4d5rr+d8pf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4e3kg+6rs4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94640

Neri wrote:

> IMO is the fact that in OotP, Harry takes pleasure in his friends' 
> pain.
> 
> Add to this that in the MoM battle, Harry fails to crucio 
> Bellatrix because, according to her, he is only feeling "righteous 
> anger", and is unable to actually enjoy hurting somebody, even to 
> his friend's murderer. But he *was* enjoying hurting Ron and 
> Hermione at least twice in OotP. In fact, Bella had pinpointed 
> exactly the distinction I'm clumsily trying to make here: Before 
> OotP Harry was sometimes (rarely) feeling "righteous anger" at his 
> friends, but in OotP he enjoys hurting them.

Del :
I still disagree with you, I'm afraid :-) I'll try and show you that 
what Harry felt all throughout the year towards his friends 
was "righteous anger", and that he enjoyed seeing them hurt only 
because he felt this was just *punishment* for their acts which made 
him hurt first.

> OotP (US), Ch. 4, p. 63:
> 'He seemed to think it was best,' said Hermione rather
> breathlessly. 'Dumbledore, I mean.'
> 'Right,' said Harry. He noticed that her hands, too, bore the
> marks of Hedwig's beak and found that he was not at all sorry.

Del :
That was righteous anger : he's not sorry because in his idea 
Hermione deserved to be punished, for letting him in the dark. 
Moreover, it doesn't say that he's enjoying it, he's just not sorry.

> OotP (US), Ch. 5, p. 91:
> 'Harry'll tell me and Hermione everything you say anyway!' said Ron
> hotly. 'Won't ? won't you?' he added uncertainly, meeting Harry's
> eyes.
> For a split second, Harry considered telling Ron that he wouldn't
> tell him a single word, that he could try a taste of being kept in
> the dark and see how he liked it. But the nasty impulse vanished as
> they looked at each other.
> 'Course I will,' Harry said.

Del :
That's righteous anger again. Harry just wants to make Ron walk in 
his (Harry's) shoes. He wants to punish Ron. And again, there's no 
indication of pleasure, only of revenge/punishment.

> OotP (US), Ch. 12, p. 235
> 'Poisonous toadstools don't change their spots,' said Ron
> sagely. 'Anyway, I've always thought Dumbledore was cracked to 
> trust Snape. Where's the evidence he ever really stopped working 
> for You- Know-Who?'
> 'I think Dumbledore's probably got plenty of evidence, even if he
> doesn't share it with you, Ron,' snapped Hermione.
> 'Oh, shut up, the pair of you,' said Harry heavily, as Ron opened
> his mouth to argue back. Hermione and Ron both froze, looking angry
> and offended. 'Can't you give it a rest?' said Harry. 'You're 
> always having a go at each other, it's driving me mad.' And 
> abandoning his shepherd's pie, he swung his schoolbag back over 
> his shoulder and left them sitting there.
> He walked up the marble staircase two steps at a time, past the
> many students hurrying towards lunch. The anger that had just 
> flared so unexpectedly still blazed inside him, and the vision of 
> Ron and Hermione's shocked faces afforded him a sense of deep 
> satisfaction.
> Serve them right, he thought, why can't they give it a rest . . .
> bickering all the time . . . it's enough to drive anyone up the
> wall . . .

Del :
Once again, this is perfectly righteous anger. Harry already has too 
much on his mind, and instead of trying and helping him, his friends 
only add to his burdens. Instead on focusing on him and his needs at 
they pretended they would or as he thinks they should, they keep 
enjoying their own little private war, when they know perfectly well 
that it annoys him to no end (not to mention that it puts him on the 
side, which is hurtful). So it's "natural" he punishes them. They 
bother him, he bothers them. And he's satisfied (no pleasure, once 
again) because he obviously attained his goal.

> OotP (US), Ch. 30, p. 681
> 'You can't tell me you've stopped having funny dreams,' Hermione 
> said now, 'because Ron told me you were muttering in your sleep 
> again last night.'
> Harry threw Ron a furious look. Ron had the grace to look ashamed
> of himself.
> 'You were only muttering a bit,' he mumbled
> apologetically. 'Something about "just a bit further".'
> 'I dreamed I was watching you lot play Quidditch,' Harry lied
> brutally. 'I was trying to get you to stretch out a bit further to
> grab the Quaffle.'
> Ron's ears went red. Harry felt a kind of vindictive pleasure; he
> had not, of course, dreamed anything of the sort.

Del :
Again, Harry only wants to punish Ron for blabbing on him. Ron 
deeply betrayed him (in Harry's idea) by revealing a moment of 
weakness to Hermione (behind his back too !), so he wants to remind 
Ron that Ron has got weaknesses too. You hurt me, I hurt you. And he 
takes pleasure in it in contrast to the deep pain he just felt when 
he discovered Ron betrayed him.

> OotP (US), Ch. 36, p. 810
>     'Never used an Unforgivable Curse before, have you, boy?' she 
> yelled. She had abandoned her baby voice now. 'You need to mean 
> them, Potter! You need to really want to cause pain ? to enjoy it ?
> righteous anger won't hurt me for long ? I'll show you how it is 
> done, shall I? I'll give you a lesson ? '

Del :
Please notice that she doesn't say that righteous anger can't make 
the Curse work : it just won't make it last for long. And the reason 
for it is simple : righteous anger seeks punishment and only 
punishment. Once the punishment is attained, righteous anger dies. 
It's just like when my kid annoys me a bit too much, and I yell at 
him in "righteous anger", and he starts crying. For a few fleeting 
seconds, I'm deeply satisfied (serves you well), but then my anger 
subsides because the punishment is attained, and I'm left with my 
baby crying. What I feel then is everything from pain to remorse, 
but certainly not anger, and most definitely not a further desire to 
hurt him !!
In order to keep the Curse working, you have to want to make people 
suffer *for no fault of theirs at all and even though they are in 
pain* ! In order to make Crucio work, you have to get to the point 
that you can *enjoy* torturing anyone *for a prolonged time without 
any reason at all*. Harry hasn't done anything like that at all. He 
never ever came up to Ron and start telling him out of the blue how 
bad he is at Quidditch and then how ridiculous he looked in his 
dress robes at the Yule Ball and then how much money there's in 
Harry's vault but Harry will never give it to Ron, all the while 
watching Ron go from hurt to shame to pain to pleading Harry to 
please please stop ! (As for Hermione, Harry had an easy way to hurt 
her : tell her that Dobby collected her hats. He never did it.)

The only times Harry willfully hurt his friends and took some kind 
of pleasure or satisfaction in it is when he felt he was only 
punishing them, getting some kind of revenge on them. And that's a 
VERY human reaction, boy do I know about it :-) !! (Unless you mean 
I'm being possessed by an evil spirit ? ;-)

Del






From catherinemck at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 31 09:59:31 2004
From: catherinemck at hotmail.com (catherinemckiernan)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 09:59:31 -0000
Subject: The bucking broomstick (Was:  Snape's house)
In-Reply-To: <c4e145+vjhg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4e4q3+ugs6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94641

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severelysigune" 
<severelysigune at y...> wrote:
> Carol:
> <<At least as an adult he has no trouble controlling his broom when 
> he referees the Quidditch game in SS/PS. As we know from Harry's 
> remarks, a good broom won't throw off its rider, so either this is 
> not a good broom or it has a hex or jinx on it.  IMO it's not fear 
of 
> flying or incompetence but stubborn unwillingness to let the 
(jinxed 
> or faulty) broom control him (which the girl in the memory finds 
> funny). 
> Carol, who wishes she knew who the girl was>>

As did Sigune:

<snip>
> Sigune now:
> Yes, I think you must be right, Carol - but I must confess to be a 
> teensy bit disappointed. I did like the thought of Snape being not 
> good at something like flying a broomstick. In any case I still 
find 
> it hard to imagine he likes brooms as a means of transportation - 
he 
> seems more of an Apparating type (much more magic, invisible and a 
> little spectacular to my mind). 
> My first interpretation of the Bucking Broomstick was that Snape 
> couldn't fly very well; but in Quidditch Through The Ages it is of 
> course stated explicitly that a Quidditch referee should be an 
expert 
> broomsticks(wo)man. Bleh. I also loved to think the apparent 
> unfairness of Snape's refereeing was in fact due to his faulty 
> knowledge of Quidditch rules, though of course he would never admit 
> that in public (or private, for that matter). But now I must agree 
> with you and Potioncat.
> Hmmm - yes, who can the girl be? I don't believe in Hooch. And I 
hope 
> we'll find out more about the scene, which is quite possible, isn't 
> it?
Now Catherin McK:
I see what you mean about Snape not being a broomstick kind of man - 
it just isn't as impressive as apparating, and Snape does like to 
make an entrance.

I always interpreted the bucking broomstick scene as symbolic of 
Snape's lack of success with girls. Is this the result of an English 
Lit. degree (sex interpretations = high marks) or am I just dirty-
minded? There's just something about him being laughed at during that 
unsuccessful ride...

Catherine McK





From gbannister10 at aol.com  Wed Mar 31 10:50:14 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 10:50:14 -0000
Subject: Underage magic enforcement
In-Reply-To: <c4chqf+vkon@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4e7p6+eg5q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94642

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rhabenh" <rhobbs at i...> wrote:

Robin:
> The Weasley boys explained how they could fly the car and not get in
> trouble with MoM.  They didn't enchant the car, it is okay to use
> things that others have enchanted, they just can't do it themselves.
> 
> My question is why wasn't Harry punished for what he did in MoM to
> Bellatrix at the end of OotP?  Anyone got any theories?  

Geoff:
The thought which occurs to me is that if the Ministry was monitoring 
what was going on in their building (when they should have been 
riding over the hill to the rescue?) was whether they could 
distinguish who was throwing each spell. The air was thick with 
jinxes and spells and the young people themselves had used a lot of 
them: they all used a Reducto spell at the same moment, Hermione used 
Stupefy, Colloportus, Accio and Silencio, Neville used Expelliarmus 
and Stupefy while Harry used Stupefy, Petrificus Totalis, 
Colloportus, Diffindo, Protego, Wingardium Leviosa, Crucio and I may 
have missed some... Several of these were used more than once, so 
there was a lot of underage wizardy performed within a very short 
time scale not to mention that performed by the adults.




From gbannister10 at aol.com  Wed Mar 31 10:59:47 2004
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 10:59:47 -0000
Subject: Ollivanders' origin (was: Ollivander a Dragon Slayer?)
In-Reply-To: <c4d6ro+36d5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4e8b3+sqgh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94643

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" <nkafkafi at y...> 
wrote:
> Carol:
> <snip>
> As for Mr. Ollivander having been alive since 382 B.C., Nicholas
> Flamel needed the elixir of life to live to 666 (or whatever his age
> was at the end of SS/PS). Also, the sign in Mr. Ollivander's shop
> window says "Makers of fine wands since 382 B.C." 

Neri:
> I wonder what country did the Ollivanders came from? Britain wasn't 
> very civilized in the forth century B.C., and "Ollivander" doesn't 
> sound British. 

Geoff:
The fact that Ollivander's have been makers of fine wands since 382 
BC does not mean that the shop has been /based/ in the UK since then. 
Bearing in mind that at that time in history, the Mediterranean was 
more the centre of culture and civilisation, I suspect they were down 
thataway.




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Wed Mar 31 11:22:38 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 11:22:38 -0000
Subject: Ottery St-Catchpole and Wizard War II
In-Reply-To: <c4dggp+5onj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4e9lu+rulv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94644

Bonnie wrote: 
> 
> As for Miss Fawcett being the one to change houses, I suppose it is 
> possible, but I almost think it would more likley be Luna. 

Potioncat wrote:
The switching houses plot came up not too long along and a call went 
out for a confirming quote.  Has anyone found it?  Has anyone looked?

Potioncat




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Wed Mar 31 11:32:56 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 11:32:56 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <7d.4a61ae77.2d9bbe0f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <c4ea98+sj1n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94645

 Batchevra wrote:
Look, Lupin was distracted that night by what he saw on the map, his 
> old friend Sirius and Pettigrew, seeing them go down into the 
Whomping Willow. 
> Batchevra
> 
> 
Potioncat:
Let's say, it had happened this way: Lupin comes out of the shower, 
glances at the map and sees Pettigrew.  Do you think he would have 
dashed out without putting on his pants?  

I know both Harry and Snape somethimes dash off without telling 
anyone, but Lupin has no excuse this time.

Potioncat (who really likes Lupin, but can't excuse him this time)




From severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Mar 31 11:35:08 2004
From: severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk (severelysigune)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 11:35:08 -0000
Subject: The bucking broomstick (Was:  Snape's house)
In-Reply-To: <c4e4q3+ugs6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4eadc+vvtr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94646

I'd like to combine two posts here:

Kneasy wrote:
<<I've long suspected that that this memory is not as straight-
forward as it appears. It's Snape's memory but is it a memory *of* 
Snape? Given that the feud between Sevvy and the Marauders was of long
standing, this could be something else.

James is the Quidditch hero, the broomstick supremo. What better way
for Snape to humiliate him in public than to curse his broomstick?

IMO the scrawny boy is James, the laughing girl Lily.>>


Sigune here:
I find this point of view mighty interesting - like your suggestion 
that the hook-nosed man in the other memory is Snape himself rather 
than his father. Both are perfectly possible, and it is a wholly 
different way of looking at the evidence.
However, I interpreted the scrawny boy to be Snape because of the 
violence of his reaction to Harry. If I remember correctly (I haven't 
got my book with me), Snape doesn't say "That will do, Potter", 
or "Yes Potter, you can stop that now" - he shouted "ENOUGH!". If the 
boy on the broomstick is James, struggling because of a jinx cast by 
Snape, then the memory should be one of triumph and there is no need 
to react so violently.
Undermining my own argument, I am ready to concede that maybe he 
begins to shout for fear of Harry seeing the memory that comes next. 
But still.


Katherine McK suggested:
<<I always interpreted the bucking broomstick scene as symbolic of  
Snape's lack of success with girls. Is this the result of an English 
Lit. degree (sex interpretations = high marks) or am I just dirty-
minded? There's just something about him being laughed at during that 
unsuccessful ride...>>

Now Sigune:
Hm. We had different English Lit. professors :).
As a Snape non-shipper I cannot help wondering what the relevance is 
of the laughing person being of the female sex. For some reason or 
other I cannot see Snape being remotely interested in any girl for 
the reason of her being a girl. Or do I display a disconcerting lack 
of a dirty mind :)? I may be entirely wrong. Or the girl might have 
quite another meaning than as a love interest. Maybe she's his sister 
who always did better at school and with whom he was always compared, 
much to his frustration. Or maybe it's just worse for a boy to be 
laughed at by a girl than by another boy.
Ah well. No canon support at all to make sense of all this, so I'll 
just shut up and get back to work.

Yours severely,

Sigune




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Wed Mar 31 11:38:01 2004
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 11:38:01 -0000
Subject: Ollivanders' origin
In-Reply-To: <c4dkdk+gu8v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4eaip+a4bj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94647

Annunathradien wrote:

> Phonetically, "Alexander" and "Ollivander" sound somewhat 
similar.  
> Same amount of syllables.  Both end in "ander".

Welcome, Annunathradien!

I believe that, in Greek, the ending -ander means 'man', thus 
Alexander, Menander, Anaximander.  Because of this, and their great 
antiquity, I had surmised that the Ollivander family came from that 
part of the world.  That strikes me as more plausible than a 'van 
der' component from Dutch, which would require a name to follow (as 
in, say, van der Waals); also I'm guessing that Dutch has changed a 
lot from its ancestral language since 382 BC and that the 'van der' 
form is relatively recent.

I don't know what the Alex- refers to, or if Greek was the language 
of ancient Macedonia, though Alexander certainly ended up spreading 
Greek language and culture through a huge area.

Anyone whose Greek is better than mine able to hazard a guess at the 
Olliv- part?

David




From severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Mar 31 11:49:16 2004
From: severelysigune at yahoo.co.uk (severelysigune)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 11:49:16 -0000
Subject: Ollivanders' origin
In-Reply-To: <c4eaip+a4bj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4eb7s+10kj4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94648

David wrote:
<<I believe that, in Greek, the ending -ander means 'man', thus 
Alexander, Menander, Anaximander.  Because of this, and their great  
antiquity, I had surmised that the Ollivander family came from that  
part of the world.  That strikes me as more plausible than a 'van  
der' component from Dutch, which would require a name to follow (as  
in, say, van der Waals); also I'm guessing that Dutch has changed a  
lot from its ancestral language since 382 BC and that the 'van der'  
form is relatively recent.
 
I don't know what the Alex- refers to, or if Greek was the language 
of ancient Macedonia, though Alexander certainly ended up spreading 
Greek language and culture through a huge area.
 
Anyone whose Greek is better than mine able to hazard a guess at the 
Olliv- part?>>

Sigune:
Well, my Greek isn't very good, but when it comes to Dutch I can be 
of some help.
First things first: the Dutch language very simply did not exist in 
382 BC. The first snatch of written 'Dutch' dates back to the 
eleventh century ("hebban olla vogala nestas hagunnan hinase hic enda 
tu wat unbidan wi nu"); that is the point at which the language is 
acknowledged as different from German. So, no, the "vander" cannot 
possibly be "van der" as in some Dutch/Flemish family names.

I like your analysis of "ander" as the Greek for man, which is 
undoubtedly right; but frankly "Olliv-" does not sound Greek to me at 
all. Olives do, though :). Maybe it's another JKR joke. Or we are 
heading in the wrong direction.

Yours severely,

Sigune




From silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net  Wed Mar 31 11:51:17 2004
From: silverthorne.dragon at verizon.net (Silverthorne)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 5:51:17 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] OT: Drill Sargeant (with a tiny bit of ontopic talk...)
Message-ID: <20040331115117.ILRW29216.out009.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 94649

In Harry's case...well, honestly I think it's partially snape's fault for it, he's so combative/angry he can't respect snape and can't learn.  If Snape hadn't singled him out and etc etc Harry might have been more willing to learn.  As it is, well, I think, though the armed forced experts can correct me, if Harry tried his attitude/reaction set with a Drill Sargeant, and he was a recruit as opposed to a student, he'd get kicked out.


{Silverthorne}

No...yoiu only get kicked out if you quit or fail the written exams and final exercises, actaully. What would happen (another parallel to HP in Snape and HArry terms!), is that you would get picked out even more, even more often, and the punishments would gte worse. So would the biting sarcasm, and so forth. And if that didn;t work, that's when the Sergeant starts going after the entire unit on the reluctant solider's behalf---an even bigger motivator. 'Cause if you buddies are getting it now because of you, you can bet if you don't straighten up right quick, they'll be doing a little 'correcting' of thier own...^^;

Thanks for the pyschology factor--that put it in much better terms than I could manage (and to think I actaully survived two semesters of it before I dropped out of college...*snor* so much for retention...)

Anne


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From belijako at online.no  Wed Mar 31 11:56:45 2004
From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 11:56:45 -0000
Subject: Could Snape be part goblin?
In-Reply-To: <c4c86k+55ct@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4eblt+8dhc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94650

khilari wrote:
<snip>So then I thought, if he [Snape] hasn't gone to join the DEs, 
where has he gone? Well, the other two people on dangerous missions 
that summer were Lupin and Hagrid, both liasing with non-human 
beings. So I wondered if Snape were doing the same thing for the same 
reason. Isn't there supposed to be a pattern of threes in the HP 
books? In that case it would be logical for him to be liasing with 
the goblins, as the other major non-human race mentioned in the 
books.<snip>

Berit replies:

Interesting theory, Khilari :-) The only objection I've got is that 
we already know of someone who is sent by Dumbledore to "liaison" 
with the goblins: Bill Weasley. Of course Snape could be on the job 
too, but why would it be a secret that he's on the case, and not a 
secret that Bill is working on it? after all; the children are 
allowed to listen in on Bill's reports from his dealings with the 
goblins. But no mention of Snape.

Berit
http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html




From belijako at online.no  Wed Mar 31 12:07:49 2004
From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 12:07:49 -0000
Subject: Snape's house
In-Reply-To: <c4ckr1+8tin@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4ecal+o2fm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94651

Mike wrote:
<snip>After all, how many Gryffindor friends does 
Ginny even have?<snip>  I suppose after the school finding out you 
were being controlled by Voldie and setting a Basilisk around the 
castle you wouldn't be that popular would you?

Berit replies:

I'm not sure since I don't have my books with me, but didn't 
Dumbledore cover up that it was Ginny who had opened the Chamber of 
secrets, in order to protect her and her family? I don't think 
Ginny's participation ever was made public? 
I think Dumbledore says something to the effect that he thinks that 
could have been (one of) Lucius Malfoy's intent(s) (when he slipped 
Ginny the diary); to put Arthur Weasley in a bad light as a revenge 
for raiding his house for illegal artefacts. Just imagine the 
disgrace Arthur Weasley would have been put in (he is known to be 
a "muggle-lover", always campaigning for muggle rights) had it been 
revealed his own daughter went about harming and killing muggle-
borns...

Berit
http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Wed Mar 31 12:39:40 2004
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 12:39:40 -0000
Subject: "I am Lord Voldemort"
Message-ID: <c4ee6c+c113@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94652

I was thinking about anagrams, after seeing the one 
about 'Ollivander' = 'an evil lord'.  We have surmised a fair few on 
this list: 'Severus Snape' = 'Perseus Evans', or 'Dolores Umbridge' 
= 'Dumbledore! Go, sir!'.

I got to wondering what makes an anagram likely, in the sense that 
somebody's name might be an anagram of a concealed clue.  On the one 
hand, the fact that 'Tom Marvolo Riddle' is an anagram of 'I am Lord 
Voldemort' may be a piece of foreshadowing: some other character's 
name may be a clue of this sort.

On the other, why should a person choose an anagram as a means of 
changing their name?  It's a bit forced, IMO, if a plot point 
ultimately depends on this kind of thing unless it's well motivated 
in the characterisation of the person doing it.

In Riddle's case, I think it may reflect the way that Voldemort 
tries to escape his origins, but that his actual method of doing so 
tends to reaffirm those origins.

This is pointed up most starkly when he has to go back to his 
father's grave and body to get his immortality experiment back on 
track, but also in his use of a Muggle diary to preserve his teenage 
memories.

In the case of his name change, it means that, in his new identity 
as Voldemort, his old identity as Tom Riddle is still embedded.

I don't know exactly what this means for future anagrams, but, IMO, 
to be credible in the story there are not that many ways they can 
come in.  Certainly at present anagrams of names such as Snape seem 
to lack motivation.  If Snape were really related to another 
character, why would he choose an anagram to disguise his name?

David




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Wed Mar 31 13:10:55 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 13:10:55 -0000
Subject: "I am Lord Voldemort"
In-Reply-To: <c4ee6c+c113@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4eg0v+oggk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94654

David wrote:
> I was thinking about anagrams, after seeing the one 
> about 'Ollivander' = 'an evil lord'.  We have surmised a fair few 
on 
> this list: 'Severus Snape' = 'Perseus Evans', or 'Dolores Umbridge' 
> = 'Dumbledore! Go, sir!'.
> 
>

Potioncat:
This humble, very lost newby would respectfully like to know where to 
find out about more about anagrams.  The most amazing ones keep 
popping up.  (I did go to the Humongous Big List to look.)

Has JKR ever commented on any of them?





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Wed Mar 31 13:33:42 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 13:33:42 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c4d8hc+r9p4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4ehbm+dq0q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94655


> 
> Jen wrote:
 I can't believe Snape 'spilling the beans' about Lupin was 
> *more* about the student's best interest and *less* about Snape's 
> best interest. I'm quantifying here because I do believe Snape 
> recognizes the potential danger of having a werewolf around more 
> than anyone else at Hogwarts. 
> 
> snip< 
> On the heels of what happened the night before with 
> Serverus' "severe disappointment", I'm very doubtful that Snape's 
> motive was *primarily* the students safety.

Potioncat:
Interesting, isn't it, that from time to time we see Snape go against 
DD, yet there never seems to be any consequence.  Of course, we don't 
get to sit in at the annual review.

I'd like to know from JKR what was behind Snape's slip of the tongue 
about Lupin and behind the end of occlumency lessons. But I really do 
think he was sincere in his distrust of Lupin and Black, and that it 
wasn't just spite.

Potioncat




From meriaugust at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 31 13:46:08 2004
From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 13:46:08 -0000
Subject: "I am Lord Voldemort"
In-Reply-To: <c4eg0v+oggk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4ei30+rpge@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94656

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at m...> 
wrote: 
> Potioncat:
> This humble, very lost newby would respectfully like to know where 
to 
> find out about more about anagrams.  The most amazing ones keep 
> popping up.  (I did go to the Humongous Big List to look.)
> 
> Has JKR ever commented on any of them?

Meri here: 

www.mugglenet.com has a small listing of some interesting anagrams 
on its site, and IIRC there is some mention of them in Galadriel 
Waters mystery books. However, I am not sure if JKR has ever 
specifically commented on them, but a cursory search of the Floo 
Network would probably get some results, better anyway than the 
Yahoo search. 
Meri - who would also like to thank Joe in SoFlo for his defense of 
Hermione and plain, nerdy girls everywhere, myself included. 




From meriaugust at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 31 13:47:52 2004
From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 13:47:52 -0000
Subject: "I am Lord Voldemort"
In-Reply-To: <c4eg0v+oggk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4ei68+63lc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94657

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at m...> 
wrote: 
> Potioncat:
> This humble, very lost newby would respectfully like to know where 
to 
> find out about more about anagrams.  The most amazing ones keep 
> popping up.  (I did go to the Humongous Big List to look.)
> 
> Has JKR ever commented on any of them?

Meri here: 

www.mugglenet.com has a small listing of some interesting anagrams 
on its site, and IIRC there is some mention of them in Galadriel 
Waters mystery books. However, I am not sure if JKR has ever 
specifically commented on them, but a cursory search of the Floo 
Network would probably get some results, better anyway than the 
Yahoo search. 
Meri - who would also like to thank Joe in SoFlo for his defense of 
Hermione and plain, nerdy girls everywhere, myself included. 




From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 31 14:13:09 2004
From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (Ms Mo Me)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 06:13:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Harry's disposition
In-Reply-To: <1080692474.17569.11218.m18@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040331141309.6401.qmail@web13507.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94658

Given the hell and loneliness Harry has had to endure,
if he were a
typical modern suburban teen, he would probably end up
in the Great
Hall with an AK-47 taking out his frustration on
anyone and everyone
who fell between his sights. 

But then that's just my opinion.

bboy_mn


Mo:

I couldn't agree more!  Thank you for elaborating.

This is one of the reason's Lupin is my favorite
character.  He is one of the few people, in addition
to Molly, Sirius and DD, that give HP moral support.  

In the third book, this is the first time HP has had
continual contact with someone who understands him and
can offer him support.  Up until then, DD has only
given him support at the end of the year after HP has
suffered a traumatic event.  Lupin is someone who is
there giving HP advice and helping him cope with
difficulties and showing him defence mechanisms.  

If you remember in OoP, when the squad comes to get
him out of Privet Drive, HP gets excited when he hears
Lupin's voice. 

Lupin knows what it is like to be cut off from people
and not accepted.  He is grieving over the same people
HP grieves.  In that alone, there is a connection.

Sorry, I went on another Lupin tangent, but the more I
read about him and think about his role, the more I
like him. 

~Mo


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html



From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Wed Mar 31 14:14:01 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 31 Mar 2004 16:14:01 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Could Snape be part goblin?
Message-ID: <20040331141401.76D3B2D2235@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 94659

> khilari wrote:
> <snip>So then I thought, if he [Snape] hasn't gone to join the DEs, 
> where has he gone? Well, the other two people on dangerous missions 
> that summer were Lupin and Hagrid, both liasing with non-human 
> beings. So I wondered if Snape were doing the same thing for the same 
> reason. Isn't there supposed to be a pattern of threes in the HP 
> books? In that case it would be logical for him to be liasing with 
> the goblins, as the other major non-human race mentioned in the 
> books.<snip>

The very question is if the humans can crosbreed with goblins. They can with Veelas and giants. I doubt they can with Trolls (anyway who'll be willing to try?) or Ceantaurs (in this case I think it would be centaurs who'll be unwilling). If humans could crosbreed with goblins than what about house -elves? Professor Flitwick, anyone?

Cheers, Viridis
________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!



From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com  Wed Mar 31 14:30:02 2004
From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 14:30:02 -0000
Subject: The bucking broomstick (Was:  Snape's house)
In-Reply-To: <c4eadc+vvtr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4ekla+i67j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94660

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severelysigune" <severelysigune at y...> wrote:
> 
> 
> Sigune here:
> I find this point of view mighty interesting - like your suggestion 
> that the hook-nosed man in the other memory is Snape himself rather 
> than his father. Both are perfectly possible, and it is a wholly 
> different way of looking at the evidence.
> However, I interpreted the scrawny boy to be Snape because of the 
> violence of his reaction to Harry. If I remember correctly (I haven't 
> got my book with me), Snape doesn't say "That will do, Potter", 
> or "Yes Potter, you can stop that now" - he shouted "ENOUGH!". If the 
> boy on the broomstick is James, struggling because of a jinx cast by 
> Snape, then the memory should be one of triumph and there is no need 
> to react so violently.
> Undermining my own argument, I am ready to concede that maybe he 
> begins to shout for fear of Harry seeing the memory that comes next. 
> But still.
> 


Glad to have given you something to think about.

I  generally work to the principle that it's dangerous to accept the things
JKR tells us at face value. There's a good chance she's in the process of
lowering the knitted ovine product  over  our eyes at least half the time. 
 
Besides, it makes for a nicely rounded set of replays; Snape bucks James
off, James suspends Snape in an embaraasing position. Snap.

Also there is the nature  of memories - don't know about you but most
of mine are from an observers point of view, like watching a video. So 
there is a chance that very few of Snape's actually feature Snape as the
central character. 

I love being devious.

Kneasy







From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Wed Mar 31 14:40:12 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 31 Mar 2004 16:40:12 +0200
Subject: use of brooms / Underage magic monitoring
Message-ID: <20040331144012.30D8D2D21E9@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 94661

>Aesha:
> 
> I think that the brooms that wizards use are charmed flying objects; it's
> not because you're magical that you can fly on them. So yes, I think that
> if a muggle were to come across one it might move a bit- I don't know if
> it'd do a lot, because they don't erally know how to use it.

I think you need the magic to fly the broom, however you don't need to use it actively. Broom charms interacting with person's inherent magic enable it to fly. But steering is purely physical activity - so it's untracable. I guess similar case is with the Floo powder. I don't know about the portkey - but if above is true athan it would be logical that you need some inherent magic to use it, too.

The brooms untreceability supports wand-tracing theory. No wand - no trace of magic. Pre-Hogwarts manifestations of magic are usually in self-defence (self-preseration), so it's only reasonable they're not being punished. In case of magical children they're probably regarde as too weak to be dangerous and/or the sole responsibility of parents (I think Ron's teddy bear-to-spider transfiguration, impressive as it was, was purely accidental and twins wouldn't be able to repeat it).

As for MoM fight and punishments for underage magic - the reasons are purely political. MoM has been already compromitated by DE infiltration and Thingy's appeareance, which was so vehemently denied. Do they really need any more bad publicity for trying to punish the saviour of the day?

Cheers, Viridis
________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!



From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Wed Mar 31 14:54:44 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 14:54:44 -0000
Subject: OT: Drill Sargeant (with a tiny bit of ontopic talk...)
In-Reply-To: <332E5197.7F01D135.00170183@aol.com>
Message-ID: <c4em3k+mo9k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94662

EnsTren at a... wrote:
> Humans learn quickly when our lives depend upon it, it's a natural 
reaction.  If you are in iminante danger of getting physically harmed 
or killed your brain and body kick into overdrive, which is why 
craming and doing it the night before it's due papers sometimes work 
for people.  When you're on your last leg most people perform better.

> You lean faster and it gets embeded deeper into you.  Army 
Training /deliberetly/ takes advantage of this.  The Drill Sargeant 
is there, in your face, yelling at you inorder to convince your 
subconconcious that Yes, you are going to suffer horribly if you 
don't learn this and quickly.
 
> In Harry's case...well, honestly I think it's partially snape's 
fault for it, he's so combative/angry he can't respect snape and 
can't learn.  If Snape hadn't singled him out and etc etc Harry might 
have been more willing to learn.  As it is, well, I think, though the 
armed forced experts can correct me, if Harry tried his 
attitude/reaction set with a Drill Sargeant, and he was a recruit as 
opposed to a student, he'd get kicked out.


Siriusly Snapey Susan:
I snipped Neri's & Anne's comments [sorry] in the interest of 
brevity, and please keep in mind I'm reacting to the whole thread, 
not just this message.

I will make one last feeble attempt to bring out a difference that I 
think is KEY.  HRH & their class of Hogwarts students begin w/ Snape 
at age **11** and the war is **NOT** yet on.  They are boarding 
school students, not military academy students or enlistees.  No one 
has **told** them that their lives are in danger and they damn well 
better listen & learn this stuff because their *lives* depend on it.  
When a person goes into the military, he or she is 1) older and 2) 
*knows* his/her life depends upon listening & learning every detail.

Doesn't anybody else out there think this is an important difference 
in the learning process?  That one must *understand* the mission in 
order for the drill sergeant routine to be most effective?  
Somebody...anybody...? :-|  [EnsTren, you may be getting at this 
somewhat in your final paragraph....]

Siriusly Snapey Susan








From willsonkmom at msn.com  Wed Mar 31 15:03:23 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 15:03:23 -0000
Subject: The bucking broomstick (Was:  Snape's house)
In-Reply-To: <c4ekla+i67j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4emjr+ad9d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94663

xSigune here:
> > I find this point of view mighty interesting - like your 
suggestion 
> > that the hook-nosed man in the other memory is Snape himself 
rather 
> > than his father. Both are perfectly possible, and it is a wholly 
> > different way of looking at the evidence.
> > However, I interpreted the scrawny boy to be Snape because of the 
> > violence of his reaction to Harry. If I remember correctly (I 
haven't 
> > got my book with me), Snape doesn't say "That will do, Potter", 
> > or "Yes Potter, you can stop that now" - he shouted "ENOUGH!". x> 

Kneasy wrote:
> Glad to have given you something to think about.
snip<
> 
> I  generally work to the principle that it's dangerous to accept 
the things
> JKR tells us at face value. 
snip< 
x> Also there is the nature  of memories - don't know about you but 
most
> of mine are from an observers point of view, like watching a video. 
So 
> there is a chance that very few of Snape's actually feature Snape 
as the
> central character. 
> 

Potioncat:
I'll agree with Sigune here, you do have an interesting way of 
looking at things and it's always a good idea to think out of the 
trunk where JKR is concerned.

Let's go back a little: Harry was remembering the  dementers at the 
lake (I wonder what Snape thought about that one?) then Harry did the 
Protego charm, Snape's wand flew out of his hand and Harry was inside 
Snape's thoughts. He saw the yelling man, the teen zapping flies and 
the bucking broom. Then ENOUGH and Harry felt as if he was pushed in 
the chest and he hit a shelf hard enough to break a jar. Snape 
reparo's the jar. (Is this all wandless magic?)

I wonder if the dementers that Snape was seeing in Harry's mind, 
brought these thoughts up in his?  Or if being bested by Harry this 
time, brought up these memories?  The ones we see in Harry's mind 
usually seem pretty random.

The next set to come up in Harry's mind is at the MoM again.

I know what you mean about seeing the person Snape in Snape's 
memory.   But it is also that way in DD's pensieve, we (Harry) come 
in beside DD, not as DD.
Potioncat  




From jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net  Wed Mar 31 15:09:40 2004
From: jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net (Robert Jones)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 15:09:40 -0000
Subject: Why Couldn't Ron and Hermione Hear the Basilisk?
Message-ID: <c4emvk+60uj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94664

COS explains that Harry could understand the Basilisk because he was 
a Parseltongue.  But why couldn't Ron and Hermione even *hear* it?  
Shouldn't it have made a hiss or some other snaky noise?  Nothing in 
the book suggests that a Parseltongue could read a snake's mind or 
had especially acute hearing ? so shouldn't there have been some 
noise for Ron and Hermione to hear?




From CoyotesChild at charter.net  Wed Mar 31 15:18:05 2004
From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (Iggy McSnurd)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 09:18:05 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] All Things Green II, results
In-Reply-To: <c4dmud+gj9e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000101c41733$60ac6be0$1001a8c0@Einstein>

No: HPFGUIDX 94665


A new acronym for all the "green symbology" people out there... if it
doesn't already exist.

GRIMS... because let's face it... Green Really Is Meaningfully
Significant  (Or would that be Green Really Is of Major Significance?)


Iggy McSnurd







From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 31 15:25:26 2004
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 15:25:26 -0000
Subject: JKR didn't say "No: was re: Life-saving bonds
In-Reply-To: <c4c22p+5rk2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4ent6+p5di@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94666

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> > 

> But she didn't say that! She said, "Erm...I don't think so." And 
> since she knows all about Snape, that's evasive,IMO. An 
> interviewer wouldn't have let her get away with it, but fortunately 
> for her, there's no possibility for follow-up questions in a chat.
> 
> http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/JKRWorldBookDay2004.html
> 
> It's  like, "Mum, does this receipt from the bicycle shop I 
> found in the bin have anything to do with Bobby's Christmas 
> present?" At which point Mum realizes that little Bobby is 
> listening hard,  and says:
> 
> "Erm...I don't think so." Meaning, 'Well-spotted, but don't let's 
> spoil the surprise.' <g>


But in this case, when Mum says "I don't think so", she is telling a 
lie. It's a lie, because in common usage, if you ask somebody 
something, and they say "I don't think so", you take it to mean "as 
far as I know, no." As in (upon hearing of ESE!Lupin) I would 
ask, "Pippin, are you totally crazy?", to which you can answer, 
truthfully, "I don't think so." Meaning, "as far as I know, no, I'm 
not crazy." <g>

When JKR said "I don't think so", she knows (as anyone would who is 
an English speaker) that it's immediately interpreted as "as far as I 
know, no." So, if she said it and Snape *is* a vampire, then she 
deliberately tried to create a false impression with the 
participants; which is to lie. (In dictionary.com I found two 
definitions of lying, the seocnd one being: "Something meant to 
deceive or give a wrong impression.")
In Bobby's Mum case, the lie is justified, but in JKR's case? She 
could easily have chosen not to answer that question at all. In any 
case, we simply have to assume that she doesn't lie, or we can't take 
any of her answers seriously. 

BTW, her answer didn't at all strike me as evasive. It's the kind of 
thing you say, while raising your eyebrows - when a suggestion is 
very very far from making sense. That was how it "sounded" to me the 
moment I read it. 



Naama








From willsonkmom at msn.com  Wed Mar 31 15:34:51 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 15:34:51 -0000
Subject: OT: Drill Sargeant (with a tiny bit of ontopic talk...)
In-Reply-To: <c4em3k+mo9k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4eoer+3eub@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94667

x
> snipping first portion of post
> 
> Siriusly Snapey Susan:
> I snipped Neri's & Anne's comments [sorry] in the interest of 
> brevity, and please keep in mind I'm reacting to the whole thread, 
> not just this message.
> 
> I will make one last feeble attempt to bring out a difference that 
I 
> think is KEY.  HRH & their class of Hogwarts students begin w/ 
Snape 
> at age **11** and the war is **NOT** yet on.  They are boarding 
> school students, not military academy students or enlistees.  No 
one 
> has **told** them that their lives are in danger and they damn well 
> better listen & learn this stuff because their *lives* depend on 
it.  
> When a person goes into the military, he or she is 1) older and 2) 
> *knows* his/her life depends upon listening & learning every detail.
> 
> Doesn't anybody else out there think this is an important 
difference 
> in the learning process?  That one must *understand* the mission in 
> order for the drill sergeant routine to be most effective?  
> Somebody...anybody...? :-|  [EnsTren, you may be getting at this 
> somewhat in your final paragraph....]
> 


Potioncat (hiding behind vanishing cabinet):
I think Snape is just as sincere in his desire to teach the students 
as the Sorting Hat is to place them.  I don't know that he likes 
them, or that he knows how to teach children.  I imagine this is the 
approach he knows and the one that fits his personality.  I imagine 
he thinks he's doing well at it, if the students are passing the 
stardardized tests. (Don't get me started on standardized tests.)  I 
think he believes all the positive things the other posts have said 
about drill sargeants.

But he isn't a trained drill sargeant.  He isn't working with adult 
soldiers.  A friend shares with me that when her husband helps their 
7th grade son with math homework, the boy ends up in tears. The man 
is an engineer and understands math. He can't understand why the boy 
doesn't get it, and insists the boy isn't trying, isn't paying 
attention, didn't listen to his very clear explanation. (Sound 
familiar) This is a man who loves his son and is not a sadist.  
Unlike Snape who does have a mean streak and doesn't love the kids.

I think he is trying in his own way to prepare the kids and he can't 
even tell them what he is preparing them for.

It's not that I'm on the fence on this one, it's that I see both 
viewpoints.

Potioncat






From CindyJ2 at cox.net  Wed Mar 31 14:38:48 2004
From: CindyJ2 at cox.net (Cindy Jenkins)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 08:38:48 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ottery St-Catchpole and Wizard War II
References: <c4e9lu+rulv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <018401c4172d$e0ce7350$536a6744@DEAN>

No: HPFGUIDX 94668

Potioncat wrote:
>The switching houses plot came up not too long along and a call went 
>out for a confirming quote.  Has anyone found it?  Has anyone looked?

I've looked everywhere, and can't find a thing. It is referenced *a lot*, though, on other boards.  Everybody seems to *know* JRK said it, but just not where or when.  <sigh>

So either 1)it was said; or 2)it's just been repeated long enough to take on a life of it's own.  I'm betting on 2, but even so, it's an interesting theory.

Cindy

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 31 15:47:27 2004
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 15:47:27 -0000
Subject: JKR didn't say "No: was re: Life-saving bonds
In-Reply-To: <c4ent6+p5di@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4ep6f+rjft@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94669

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "naamagatus" <naama_gat at h...> 
wrote:
> 
> When JKR said "I don't think so", she knows (as anyone would who is 
> an English speaker) that it's immediately interpreted as "as far as 
I 
> know, no." So, if she said it and Snape *is* a vampire, then she 
> deliberately tried to create a false impression with the 
> participants; which is to lie. (In dictionary.com I found two 
> definitions of lying, the seocnd one being: "Something meant to 
> deceive or give a wrong impression.")
> In Bobby's Mum case, the lie is justified, but in JKR's case? She 
> could easily have chosen not to answer that question at all. In any 
> case, we simply have to assume that she doesn't lie, or we can't 
take 
> any of her answers seriously. 
> 
> BTW, her answer didn't at all strike me as evasive. It's the kind 
of 
> thing you say, while raising your eyebrows - when a suggestion is 
> very very far from making sense. That was how it "sounded" to me 
the 
> moment I read it. 
> 
> 
> 
> Naama


Oh, I also prefer to think that JKR does not lie in her interviews. 
She is evasive, quite often yes, but so far I don't remember her 
telling ouutright lie.

Nevertheless, don't you think that in this case she may not have had 
much choice, if there is a link between Snape and vampires.

Question was  straightforward enough. So, if she chooses not to 
answer, it is basically admission on her part that there is a link 
somewhere.

So, I think cover-up is possible here ( not very likely, mind you, 
but possible. :o)

Alla




From enigma_only at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 31 15:07:27 2004
From: enigma_only at hotmail.com (fiondavhar)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 15:07:27 -0000
Subject: Switching Houses (WAS:  Re: Ottery St-Catchpole and Wizard War II)
In-Reply-To: <c4e9lu+rulv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4emrf+qbeq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94670

Bonnie wrote: 
 
<<As for Miss Fawcett being the one to change houses, I suppose it is possible, but I almost think it would more likley be Luna.>>
 
Potioncat wrote:

<<The switching houses plot came up not too long along and a call went out for a confirming quote.  Has anyone found it?  Has anyone looked?>>

Bonny writes:

"In a recent Interview on the BBC, Rowling has said that said that 
someone important dies and someone switches houses..."

I have not had a chance to look for the interview, but if it helps 
anyone, it appears to have been on the BBC, if it exists.





From willowsgreyghost at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 31 15:45:08 2004
From: willowsgreyghost at yahoo.com (Vickey)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 07:45:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c4d99g+aqs8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20040331154508.82568.qmail@web14810.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94671

Jen wrote:

> On the heels of what happened the night before with 
> Serverus' "severe disappointment", I'm very doubtful that Snape's 
> motive was *primarily* the students safety.

Joe wrote:

>Student safety is a plausible cover for Snape, and >something of a 
>bonus in outing Lupin. Especially since Snape has been >known to have 
>a few passive-aggressive "Ooops!" moments.


How about a fear for his own safety?... He was almost attacked and would have been killed by Lupin as a boy...that is going to cause him to have some prejudices based in fear about werewolves, one in particular.  He was probably uncomfortable being around Lupin, especially given how close he had to work with him.  And fear is not always logical, even though it wouldn't have been Lupin's fault when they were kids, Severus will still resent him for it.

 

Vickey



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 31 16:11:18 2004
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 16:11:18 -0000
Subject: OT: Drill Sargeant (with a tiny bit of ontopic talk...)
In-Reply-To: <c4em3k+mo9k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4eqj6+sqic@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94672

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" <, 
> I will make one last feeble attempt to bring out a difference that 
I 
> think is KEY.  HRH & their class of Hogwarts students begin w/ 
Snape 
> at age **11** and the war is **NOT** yet on.  They are boarding 
> school students, not military academy students or enlistees.  No 
one 
> has **told** them that their lives are in danger and they damn well 
> better listen & learn this stuff because their *lives* depend on 
it.  
> When a person goes into the military, he or she is 1) older and 2) 
> *knows* his/her life depends upon listening & learning every detail.
> 
> Doesn't anybody else out there think this is an important 
difference 
> in the learning process?  That one must *understand* the mission in 
> order for the drill sergeant routine to be most effective?  
> Somebody...anybody...? :-|  [EnsTren, you may be getting at this 
> somewhat in your final paragraph....]
> 
> Siriusly Snapey Susan


Me, me, me. :o)Even if Dumbledore secretly believed that Voldie will 
come back all these years (that begs the question though why he hired 
those grossly incompetent DADA teachers, if he wanted to prepare 
chidren for upcoming war), Hogwarts is not an "auror" training 
school, it is a civilian institution and eleven year olds come there 
not to start their military training (although theyc an sure do it 
later, if they want to)

Alla







From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Wed Mar 31 16:11:37 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 16:11:37 -0000
Subject: Is Hermione Supposed to be a Genius?
In-Reply-To: <20040331081710.43BEE1FCD87@front.interia.pl>
Message-ID: <c4eqjp+su6h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94673

jdr wrote:
> > > Remember, our Hermione is a *bitch*. 
 
Siriusly Snapey Susan:
> > I'm sorry, JDR, but I think this goes way too far.  It might be 
> > nice if you were to phrase this as an opinion.  Some of us 
> > actually kinda like Hermione....

bufo_viridis: 
> Don't worry, Susan, Sargeant is quite a Hermione fan, who likes her 
> *because* she is a *bitch*. And, frankly speaking, Hermione is a 
> *bitch* in a sense as one could call iron-fisted female boss like 
> that. 

Susan:
Aaaaah, the Good Bitch vs. the Bad Bitch, then, eh?  I think I just 
needed more context to see that that's what was meant.  ;-)

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 31 16:14:33 2004
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 16:14:33 -0000
Subject: JKR didn't say "No: was re: Life-saving bonds
In-Reply-To: <c4ep6f+rjft@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4eqp9+2e0r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94674

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" 
<dumbledore11214 at y...> wrote:
> 
> Oh, I also prefer to think that JKR does not lie in her interviews. 
> She is evasive, quite often yes, but so far I don't remember her 
> telling ouutright lie.
> 
> Nevertheless, don't you think that in this case she may not have 
had 
> much choice, if there is a link between Snape and vampires.
> 
> Question was  straightforward enough. So, if she chooses not to 
> answer, it is basically admission on her part that there is a link 
> somewhere.
> 

What I meant was, that she could simply not address it. There were 
hundredds, thousands of questions pouring in. She could easily have 
picked a different question, if that one was so difficult to answer 
truthfully. 


Naama




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 31 16:16:22 2004
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 16:16:22 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <20040331154508.82568.qmail@web14810.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c4eqsm+11m5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94675

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Vickey <willowsgreyghost at y...> 
wrote:
> 
> How about a fear for his own safety?... He was almost attacked and 
would have been killed by Lupin as a boy...that is going to cause him 
to have some prejudices based in fear about werewolves, one in 
particular.  He was probably uncomfortable being around Lupin, 
especially given how close he had to work with him.  And fear is not 
always logical, even though it wouldn't have been Lupin's fault when 
they were kids, Severus will still resent him for it.
> 


Oh, yes. That is entirely plausible, logical and understandable 
scenario. But if it is true, then I don't buy Great actor! Snape, etc.

He is still stuck in the past. He hates Lupin. He hates James and by 
extension - his son, he can not get rid of his hatred.

I wonder whether he finally get rid of his hatred of Lupin, when he 
forced him to resign? Would he do it if Lupin dies also?

Alla




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 31 16:26:15 2004
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 16:26:15 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c4eqsm+11m5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4erf7+bd4s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94676

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" 
<dumbledore11214 at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Vickey <> Oh, yes. That is 
entirely plausible, logical and understandable 
> scenario. But if it is true, then I don't buy Great actor! Snape, 
etc.
> 
> He is still stuck in the past. He hates Lupin. He hates James and 
by 
> extension - his son, he can not get rid of his hatred.
> 
> I wonder whether he finally get rid of his hatred of Lupin, when he 
> forced him to resign? Would he do it if Lupin dies also?
> 
> Alla



P.S. Sorry for doing reply to my own post, but I forgot to add that I 
like such Snape much more - I want him to achieve redemption at the 
end , I don't want all of it to be just pretence.

Alla




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Wed Mar 31 16:26:32 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 16:26:32 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c4eqsm+11m5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4erfo+ogo0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94677

xAlla wrote:
> 
> He is still stuck in the past. He hates Lupin. He hates James and 
by 
> extension - his son, he can not get rid of his hatred.
> 
> I wonder whether he finally get rid of his hatred of Lupin, when he 
> forced him to resign? Would he do it if Lupin dies also?
> 

Potioncat:
Lupin did not take his wolfbane potion and therefore put students at 
risk.  Lupin did not tell DD about breaches in the security of the 
school even after he knew Black had gotten into Hogwarts. Lupin did 
not tell DD about Black being an animagus.  Lupin took Harry's map, 
but did not block off the passages Harry knew about.  

I certainly see how Snape might not like him or trust him.

Potioncat (BTW, now that Snape and DD know, shouldn't someone close 
up those passages? Because LV knows too.)




From annemehr at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 31 16:31:29 2004
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 16:31:29 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Harry_enjoying_his_friends=92_pain_(was:_Harry's_disposition)?=
In-Reply-To: <c4e3kg+6rs4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4erp1+2ccq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94678

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" <delwynmarch at y...>
wrote:
> Neri wrote:
> 
> > IMO is the fact that in OotP, Harry takes pleasure in his friends' 
> > pain.
> > 
> > Add to this that in the MoM battle, Harry fails to crucio 
> > Bellatrix because, according to her, he is only feeling "righteous 
> > anger", and is unable to actually enjoy hurting somebody, even to 
> > his friend's murderer. But he *was* enjoying hurting Ron and 
> > Hermione at least twice in OotP. In fact, Bella had pinpointed 
> > exactly the distinction I'm clumsily trying to make here: Before 
> > OotP Harry was sometimes (rarely) feeling "righteous anger" at his 
> > friends, but in OotP he enjoys hurting them.
> 
> Del :
> I still disagree with you, I'm afraid :-) I'll try and show you that 
> what Harry felt all throughout the year towards his friends 
> was "righteous anger", and that he enjoyed seeing them hurt only 
> because he felt this was just *punishment* for their acts which made 
> him hurt first.
> 
> > OotP (US), Ch. 4, p. 63:
> > 'He seemed to think it was best,' said Hermione rather
> > breathlessly. 'Dumbledore, I mean.'
> > 'Right,' said Harry. He noticed that her hands, too, bore the
> > marks of Hedwig's beak and found that he was not at all sorry.
> 
> Del :
> That was righteous anger : he's not sorry because in his idea 
> Hermione deserved to be punished, for letting him in the dark. 
> Moreover, it doesn't say that he's enjoying it, he's just not sorry.

Annemehr:
Not only that, but Harry didn't even send Hedwig to *punish* them, he
sent her out of desperation to get some information.  Hedwig was
supposed to peck them until they wrote back, which they never did. 
And don't forget, at the time he sent her, Harry had no idea when he
might be rescued from Privet Drive; it already felt like forever to
him.  So when he saw the marks on Ron and Hermione's hands, at least
part of what he felt may have been that at least Hedwig had remained
loyal to him.

> 
> > OotP (US), Ch. 5, p. 91:
> > 'Harry'll tell me and Hermione everything you say anyway!' said Ron
> > hotly. 'Won't ? won't you?' he added uncertainly, meeting Harry's
> > eyes.
> > For a split second, Harry considered telling Ron that he wouldn't
> > tell him a single word, that he could try a taste of being kept in
> > the dark and see how he liked it. But the nasty impulse vanished as
> > they looked at each other.
> > 'Course I will,' Harry said.
> 
> Del :
> That's righteous anger again. Harry just wants to make Ron walk in 
> his (Harry's) shoes. He wants to punish Ron. And again, there's no 
> indication of pleasure, only of revenge/punishment.

Annemehr:
And that time, Harry didn't even *act* on his righteous anger; it
didn't even last long enough.  And compare these two situations. 
Dumbledore forbid Ron and Hermione to tell Harry anything, and they
complied.  Here, Molly wanted to forbid her own son Ron learning
anything about the Order, and *right in front of her,* Harry announced
his intention to fill Ron in.  So, far from taking any revenge beyond
his earlier shouting, Harry resolved to treat Ron as he would have
liked Ron to have treated him.

> 
> > OotP (US), Ch. 12, p. 235
> > 'Poisonous toadstools don't change their spots,' said Ron
> > sagely. 'Anyway, I've always thought Dumbledore was cracked to 
> > trust Snape. Where's the evidence he ever really stopped working 
> > for You- Know-Who?'
> > 'I think Dumbledore's probably got plenty of evidence, even if he
> > doesn't share it with you, Ron,' snapped Hermione.
> > 'Oh, shut up, the pair of you,' said Harry heavily, as Ron opened
> > his mouth to argue back. Hermione and Ron both froze, looking angry
> > and offended. 'Can't you give it a rest?' said Harry. 'You're 
> > always having a go at each other, it's driving me mad.'[...]
 and the vision of 
> > Ron and Hermione's shocked faces afforded him a sense of deep 
> > satisfaction.
> > Serve them right, he thought, why can't they give it a rest . . .
> > bickering all the time . . . it's enough to drive anyone up the
> > wall . . .
> 
> Del :
> Once again, this is perfectly righteous anger. Harry already has too 
> much on his mind, and instead of trying and helping him, his friends 
> only add to his burdens.<snip>

Annemehr:
It is not often remarked upon, especially compared to the notice taken
of Harry's ill temper, but Ron and Hermione argue *a lot* in OoP. 
Hermione is especially hard on Ron, whenever she says "Voldemort" or
when Ron ventures an opinion on something.  Maybe Harry's deep
satisfaction had something to do with their sudden silence which was
such a relief that he didn't care how he'd achieved it.  And Harry's
"Can't you give it a rest?" seems very analogous to Hermione's "We're
on you side, Harry, so would you please stop jumping down our
throats?" (paraphrased), and whenever Hermione says that, at least
Harry is ashamed of himself.

> 
> > OotP (US), Ch. 30, p. 681
> > 'You can't tell me you've stopped having funny dreams,' Hermione 
> > said now, 'because Ron told me you were muttering in your sleep 
> > again last night.'
> > Harry threw Ron a furious look. Ron had the grace to look ashamed
> > of himself.
> > 'You were only muttering a bit,' he mumbled
> > apologetically. 'Something about "just a bit further".'
> > 'I dreamed I was watching you lot play Quidditch,' Harry lied
> > brutally. 'I was trying to get you to stretch out a bit further to
> > grab the Quaffle.'
> > Ron's ears went red. Harry felt a kind of vindictive pleasure; he
> > had not, of course, dreamed anything of the sort.
> 
> Del :
> Again, Harry only wants to punish Ron for blabbing on him. Ron 
> deeply betrayed him (in Harry's idea) by revealing a moment of 
> weakness to Hermione (behind his back too !), so he wants to remind 
> Ron that Ron has got weaknesses too. You hurt me, I hurt you. And he 
> takes pleasure in it in contrast to the deep pain he just felt when 
> he discovered Ron betrayed him.

Annemehr:
What Del said.
> 
> > OotP (US), Ch. 36, p. 810
> >     'Never used an Unforgivable Curse before, have you, boy?' she 
> > yelled. She had abandoned her baby voice now. 'You need to mean 
> > them, Potter! You need to really want to cause pain ? to enjoy it ?
> > righteous anger won't hurt me for long ? I'll show you how it is 
> > done, shall I? I'll give you a lesson ? '
> 
> Del :
> Please notice that she doesn't say that righteous anger can't make 
> the Curse work : it just won't make it last for long. And the reason 
> for it is simple : righteous anger seeks punishment and only 
> punishment. Once the punishment is attained, righteous anger dies. 
> It's just like when my kid annoys me a bit too much, and I yell at 
> him in "righteous anger", and he starts crying. For a few fleeting 
> seconds, I'm deeply satisfied (serves you well), but then my anger 
> subsides because the punishment is attained, and I'm left with my 
> baby crying. What I feel then is everything from pain to remorse, 
> but certainly not anger, and most definitely not a further desire to 
> hurt him !!
> In order to keep the Curse working, you have to want to make people 
> suffer *for no fault of theirs at all and even though they are in 
> pain* ! In order to make Crucio work, you have to get to the point 
> that you can *enjoy* torturing anyone *for a prolonged time without 
> any reason at all*. Harry hasn't done anything like that at all. He 
> never ever came up to Ron and start telling him out of the blue how 
> bad he is at Quidditch and then how ridiculous he looked in his 
> dress robes at the Yule Ball and then how much money there's in 
> Harry's vault but Harry will never give it to Ron, all the while 
> watching Ron go from hurt to shame to pain to pleading Harry to 
> please please stop ! (As for Hermione, Harry had an easy way to hurt 
> her : tell her that Dobby collected her hats. He never did it.)

Annemehr:
I couldn't snip this, because I think Del put it so perfectly.

Del:
> The only times Harry willfully hurt his friends and took some kind 
> of pleasure or satisfaction in it is when he felt he was only 
> punishing them, getting some kind of revenge on them. And that's a 
> VERY human reaction, boy do I know about it :-) !! (Unless you mean 
> I'm being possessed by an evil spirit ? ;-)

Annemehr:
Yes, indeed.  And I also have to wonder about what Dumbledore said,
about Voldemort's great talent for spreading discord and enmity,
because Harry is cetainly not the only one to go all fratchety in this
book (though he does have the best excuse IMO).  I'm not asserting
that Voldemort is magically affecting their tempers; it could be just
the stress and worry he causes along with the ripple effect everyone's
responses have on each other.  Things are going to get even worse, so
they'll *all* have to learn to master themselves.

Annemehr
who agrees with Del more often than not, and hopes she didn't press
her argument too far in their last go-around




From Elvishooked at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 31 16:32:52 2004
From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 16:32:52 -0000
Subject: JKR didn't say "No: was re: Life-saving bonds
In-Reply-To: <c4eqp9+2e0r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4errk+stkk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94679

"dumbledore11214" wrote:
>>>Nevertheless, don't you think that in this case she may not have 
had much choice, if there is a link between Snape and vampires.
Question was  straightforward enough. So, if she chooses not to 
answer, it is basically admission on her part that there is a link 
somewhere.<<<

Naama:
>>>What I meant was, that she could simply not address it. There were 
hundredds, thousands of questions pouring in. She could easily have 
picked a different question, if that one was so difficult to answer 
truthfully. <<<

Now Inge:
Did she pick the questions? I though she was presented to them after 
someone else did the picking.





From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Wed Mar 31 16:39:24 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 16:39:24 -0000
Subject: OT: Drill Sargeant (with a tiny bit of ontopic talk...)
In-Reply-To: <c4eoer+3eub@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4es7s+qckk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94680

Potioncat (hiding behind vanishing cabinet):
> I think Snape is just as sincere in his desire to teach the 
> students as the Sorting Hat is to place them.  I don't know that he 
> likes them, or that he knows how to teach children.  I imagine this 
> is the approach he knows and the one that fits his personality.  I 
> imagine he thinks he's doing well at it, if the students are 
> passing the stardardized tests. I think he believes all the 
> positive things the other posts have said about drill sargeants.
> 
> But he isn't a trained drill sargeant.  He isn't working with adult 
> soldiers.  
> 
> I think he is trying in his own way to prepare the kids and he 
> can't even tell them what he is preparing them for.
 

Susan:
Forgive me if you don't agree, but I don't think any of this provides 
a decent excuse for Snape.  And if you're right, it would still fit 
in with my argument that he's potentially underminding the students' 
ability to learn, because you're saying he's using either ineffective 
teaching methods for this particular type of students or methods he 
hasn't mastered.  What you're suggesting--his not being trained or 
not knowing how to teach children properly--means that it's going to 
be hard for him to be an effective teacher and does *nothing* in my 
mind to remove him from blame.  It would, however, put **DD** more at 
fault for not having Snape address some of this.

Personally, I think you're closest to the mark when you say these 
methods suit his *personality*.  I don't think he's concerned in the 
slightest about whether the little urchins care for his methods.  ;-)

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Mar 31 16:43:23 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 16:43:23 -0000
Subject: JKR didn't say "No: was re: Life-saving bonds
In-Reply-To: <c4ent6+p5di@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4esfb+8cba@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94681

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "naamagatus" 
<naama_gat at h...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" 
<foxmoth at q...> > 
> 
> > But she didn't say that! She said, "Erm...I don't think so." And 
> > since she knows all about Snape, that's evasive,IMO. An 
> > interviewer wouldn't have let her get away with it, but 
fortunately 
> > for her, there's no possibility for follow-up questions in a chat.
> > 
> > 
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/JKRWorldBookDay2004.html
> > 
> > It's  like, "Mum, does this receipt from the bicycle shop I 
> > found in the bin have anything to do with Bobby's Christmas 
> > present?" At which point Mum realizes that little Bobby is 
> > listening hard,  and says:
> > 
> > "Erm...I don't think so." Meaning, 'Well-spotted, but don't let's 
> > spoil the surprise.' <g>
> 
> 
> But in this case, when Mum says "I don't think so", she is 
telling a  lie. It's a lie, because in common usage, if you ask 
somebody  something, and they say "I don't think so", you take it 
to mean "as  far as I know, no." As in (upon hearing of 
ESE!Lupin) I would  ask, "Pippin, are you totally crazy?", to which 
you can answer,  truthfully, "I don't think so." Meaning, "as far as
I 
know, no, I'm  not crazy." <g>
> 
> When JKR said "I don't think so", she knows (as anyone would 
who is  an English speaker) that it's immediately interpreted as 
"as far as I  know, no." So, if she said it and Snape *is* a 
vampire, then she  deliberately tried to create a false impression 
with the participants; which is to lie. <

You've never heard anyone say, "I don't think so, I *know* so"? To 
think is to exercise the power of reason, and of course, JKR 
does not need to reason out whether Snape is a vampire or not.

 As I pointed out earlier, JKR herself uses such a construction in 
one of the very first references to Snape, "At the start of term 
banquet, Harry had got the idea that Professor Snape disliked 
him. By then end of the first Potions lesson he knew he'd been 
wrong. Professor Snape didn't dislike Harry--he *hated* him." 
-PS/SS ch.8 emphasis JKR's. 

Dumbledore himself says something deliberately ambiguous  in 
OOP: "Tonight was supposed to be the first meeting" -- where 
Fudge takes the meaning of "supposed" as "intended" but we 
know that  Dumbledore really means the other sense: 
"presumed to be true without conclusive evidence." 

This is a deliberate attempt to mislead. But Dumbledore doesn't 
appear to regard it as lying--more like he's giving Fudge a choice 
about how to interpret his words, and letting Fudge jump to 
conclusions.  

All the books are filled with deliberate attempts to create false 
impressions...that's what mystery stories are about!  But when 
you have all the facts, you see how you were led to misinterpret, 
for example, Snape's actions at the first Quidditch match, or what 
Quirrell meant when he said "C-can't t-tell you how p-pleased I 
am to meet you."  Rowling explains her attitude in the following 
quote:

Reader's Digest
December 2000
J.K. Rowling: The Wizard Behind Harry Potter Tim Bouquet
http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2000/1200-readersdige
st-boquet.htm

"Readers loved to be tricked, but not conned."

IMO, if she says, "No" plainly and the answer turns out to be 'Yes' 
that would be a con. But if she gives an obviously cagey answer, 
and we let our own eagerness to have the matter settled  supply 
a certainty that isn't there, then we've conned ourselves, which is 
a very different matter. I'm perfectly willing to entertain the idea 
that Snape isn't a vampire, but she gave a cagey answer 
because she hates to spoil a theory. But I can't see that she gave 
a cagey answer because she wanted the matter closed.

Pippin





From siskiou at msn.com  Wed Mar 31 16:50:07 2004
From: siskiou at msn.com (Susanne)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 08:50:07 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry enjoying his friends pain (was: Harry's disposition)
In-Reply-To: <c4dv8q+2rfv@eGroups.com>
References: <425311029.20040330214103@msn.com> <c4dv8q+2rfv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <13910458885.20040331085007@msn.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94682



Hi,

Wednesday, March 31, 2004, 12:24:58 AM, sienna291973 wrote:

> In addition, I believe he forgives his friends 
> very easily (far more easily than I would have).  They are none of
> them operating under the extreme pressures that Harry is, and a
> little more foresight and compassion on their part would not be
> unwelcome.

Well, they *are* all still relatively young, and they tried
very hard to be as compassionate as possible, under the
circumstances.

But I'm almost sure, he would have blown up at his friends
anyhow, since they couldn't give him the information he
wanted.
And Ron only talked to Hermione about Harry still dreaming,
because he was worried about him, and trying to help, not to
hurt Harry's feelings.

> Ron's bout of jealousy in my opinion was far worse, because
> (frankly) he has none of the excuses that Harry does.

See, this doesn't convince me at all.

It's not that because Harry has more "excuses", now nobody
else can feel bad.

Ron has things that hurt his feelings, and so does Hermione,
and everybody else, no matter if there is somebody else out
there, who gets hurt more often.

You can't tell other people, that they now
have lost their right to feel bad about anything (or the
right to express these feelings), unless it's as bad
as what soandso is going through.

Other people deserve compassion just as much as Harry
Potter, and I'm pretty sure Harry would agree with me (most
of the time),

-- 
Best regards,
 Susanne                           mailto:siskiou at msn.com






From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Mar 31 17:04:55 2004
From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 17:04:55 -0000
Subject: Mary Sue
Message-ID: <c4etnn+a4fv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94683

Please forgive my ignorance, but what exactly is a Mary Sue.I keep 
coming across this name but haven't a clue what it means.  Is it an 
American expression?
Sylvia (English and confused) 




From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 31 17:29:08 2004
From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 17:29:08 -0000
Subject: Mary Sue
In-Reply-To: <c4etnn+a4fv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4ev54+upmr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94684

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ladyramkin2000" <ladyramkin2000 at y...> 
wrote:
> Please forgive my ignorance, but what exactly is a Mary Sue.I keep 
> coming across this name but haven't a clue what it means.  Is it an 
> American expression?
> Sylvia (English and confused)

Not American--though the name would seem to be. In fanfiction (aka fic--that is, stories 
written using the characters and stituations from a particular television program or, say, 
young adult fantasy novel series) a "Mary Sue" is a character that stands in for the author 
him/herself. Usually this is considered an unworthy literary technique, even in the 
heterogenous world of fic. ;-)

To get an idea of what fic is about, take a look at http://www.fictionally.org/

Antosha (American and spending too much time on the internet)




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 31 17:33:59 2004
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 17:33:59 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Harry_enjoying_his_friends=92_pain_(was:_Harry's_disposition)?=
In-Reply-To: <13910458885.20040331085007@msn.com>
Message-ID: <c4eve7+dvre@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94685

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Susanne <siskiou at m...> wrote:
> It's not that because Harry has more "excuses", now nobody
> else can feel bad.
> 
> Ron has things that hurt his feelings, and so does Hermione,
> and everybody else, no matter if there is somebody else out
> there, who gets hurt more often.
> 
> You can't tell other people, that they now
> have lost their right to feel bad about anything (or the
> right to express these feelings), unless it's as bad
> as what soandso is going through.
> 
> Other people deserve compassion just as much as Harry
> Potter, and I'm pretty sure Harry would agree with me (most
> of the time),
> 
> -- 
> Best regards,
>  Susanne                           mailto:siskiou at m...


Other people can feel bad, of course and Ron's insecurities are 
very "down to earth", but it just to me as a reader they seem quit 
einsignificant in comparison to Harry.

I mean he feels "overshadowed" by his family,I can understand that, 
but  at the same time Harry has no parents and when Ron complains 
about his mother, well, he does seem as an ungrateful brat to me.

He is entitled to his feelings, but as I said at those moments I,a s 
a  reader don't find him very sympathetic.

Which does not mean at all that I don't appreciate his character, on 
the contrary.

I am loving how he grows up and getting rid of those insecurities.

Alla




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Wed Mar 31 18:26:30 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 18:26:30 -0000
Subject: OT: Drill Sargeant (with a tiny bit of ontopic talk...)
In-Reply-To: <c4es7s+qckk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4f2gm+68g2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94686


> Susan wrote:
> Forgive me if you don't agree, but I don't think any of this 
provides 
> a decent excuse for Snape.  And if you're right, it would still fit 
> in with my argument that he's potentially underminding the 
students' 
> ability to learn, because you're saying he's using either 
ineffective 
> teaching methods for this particular type of students or methods he 
> hasn't mastered.  What you're suggesting--his not being trained or 
> not knowing how to teach children properly--means that it's going 
to 
> be hard for him to be an effective teacher and does *nothing* in my 
> mind to remove him from blame.  It would, however, put **DD** more 
at 
> fault for not having Snape address some of this.
> 
> Personally, I think you're closest to the mark when you say these 
> methods suit his *personality*.  I don't think he's concerned in 
the 
> slightest about whether the little urchins care for his methods. ;-)


Potioncat:
I like that last paragraph!
Well, although I'm a Snape fan, I wouldn't want him for a teacher.  I 
think we've agreed on that before.

If I decided to look over Hogwarts before sending my little wizards 
off to school and I got a look at some of the teachers, I think I'd 
go visit France and wherever.  The best teacher is McGonagall and 
she's not exactly the nurturing type.  Granted, in the WW parents 
might expect something different than those of us in the RW.  And in 
my RL experience, I've disapproved of teachers that other parents 
liked and vice versa.

DD doesn't seem to be the type to interfere does he?  He didn't even 
get upset when Harry went into his pensieve.  I wonder what he said 
to Lupin after not taking the potion, or what he says to Snape about 
his teaching methods. (Sorry Severus, no raise for you this year.  
I've worn out 20 owls responding to upset parents.) 

Actually, I think we've all taken this thread way too far!!! Now, if 
you'd like to hear about my son's French teacher.....
Potioncat  





From manawydan at ntlworld.com  Wed Mar 31 18:26:58 2004
From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 19:26:58 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The bucking broomstick
References: <1080680912.22603.23318.m14@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <001101c4174d$c34339e0$f2e76151@f3b7j4>

No: HPFGUIDX 94687

Potioncat wrote:
>OK, who wants to start a Snape ship?
>I'd vote on a young Hooch who continues to use her maiden name.
>After all, Hooch and brews just go together.
>
>I think you have a good point, just because he had trouble that
>time, doesn't mean he never overcame it.  And we cannot take Sirius'
>comments about Snape's jealousy as fact.

I read that incident as more symptomatic of the young Sevvy really _not_
being lucky with the girls. It's (perhaps) one of his first shots at riding
a broomstick and there's some lass making fun of him.

Add to that the fact that the only girl in his group of friends was Bella
(who seems to have been the sort of person who treats _everyone_ like
something she just found stuck to the sole of her shoe), then it adds to the
picture of him as being quite a shy little soul in that respect.

Cheers

Ffred

O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon
Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion
Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri





From mongo62aa at yahoo.ca  Wed Mar 31 18:33:22 2004
From: mongo62aa at yahoo.ca (mongo62aa)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 18:33:22 -0000
Subject: Is Hermione Supposed to be a Genius?
In-Reply-To: <987458236.20040330121323@msn.com>
Message-ID: <c4f2ti+rlca@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94688

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Susanne <siskiou at m...> wrote:

> But what I've been curious about (and not just in regards to
> Hermione) is, if there are people with photographic memory,
> who *don't* appear to make good use of it in their lives.

Mark Twain's autobiographical book 'Life on the Mississippi' 
contains an account of a river-pilot who had a perfect memory.  Any 
time he was asked a question, he would start answering, then get 
side-tracked by remembering something else about whatever he was 
talking about, then get side-tracked from his side-track, and so 
on.  His conversations were one long train of associated memories, 
never reaching the original destination.

I don't know how accurate this is, but if somebody did in fact have 
a near-perfect memory, it sounds plausible to me.

Bill




From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Wed Mar 31 18:57:57 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 31 Mar 2004 20:57:57 +0200
Subject: Emotional/Psychological help [was: Re: Harry's disposition - the WW doesn't deal with pain]
Message-ID: <20040331185757.A1FCA1EC7B6@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 94689

> Laura Ingalls Huntley wrote:
> 
> > If Book Six rolls around and Harry is (once again) battling 
> > depression and self-doubt to the point that he blows up at 
> > innocent bystanders, [snip]

> Del :
> I've been thinking about this, while reading the various posts of 
> this thread which all make very good points. And it became more and 
> more obvious that there's a very simple answer to all those points : 
> there's no such thing as emotional or psychological support in the 
> WW. Not just for Harry I mean, but for *anyone*.
> 
> We all keep wondering why Harry, or Sirius, or whoever, doesn't get 
> the emotional support they need. But in the books, nobody seems to 
> care or wonder about it. It just seems that people are *expected* to 
> just swallow whatever is thrown at them, smile, and go on. I mean, 
> how many times do we see anyone offering any kind of support to 
> someone else ? It does happen, but it's very rare.
[...] 
> One thing that really deeply struck me is that nobody among the 
> students knows about Neville's parents. [...]So when I read the St Mungo's >scene in OoP, and realised > that *nobody* at school, not even *Hermione*, >knew about Neville's parents[...]
> I remember being so glad to see an adult (Moody) taking care of an 
> obviously traumatised Neville after the Unforgivables lesson. But I 
> also remember being *surprised* somehow. Now I know why : it never 
> happened before (an adult giving spontaneous emotional support to 
> one of the kids, I mean). 
[...]
> Just look at Cho as one last example if you're not convinced. The 
> girl lost her boy-friend, she doesn't even know how, she suspects he 
> might have been killed by a mass murderer, the whole WW acts as 
> though it never happened
[...]
> Del

Viridis:
I cut it don' but I hope Del's post still makes sense, as she made very balid points. 
We can argue that WW is harher and old-fashionedd world than ours, which has its advantages and disadvanteges, but the lack of emotional/psychological help in it is interesting (not to say downright disturbing). I'd say it's rather "emotionally cold" world, quite fitting stereotype British, stif upper lip etc. (note: I'm talking about the *stereotype* not reality).
I'm not saying that Harry should be dotted upon and so on, thinking what awates him a bit of hard treatment won't hurt - however it goes overboard here. Leaving hormone ladden teenager who just witnessed a murder etc. and for all his efforts brought dead body as a prize, for a month among very unfriendly people is not exactly the best treatment - the effects shown are pretty accurate and not *very* acute. Sure if providing him with help would endanger him, I am not surprised that Dumble took his chances (better disturbed Harry than calm Harry's cadaver). Yet as Del pointed out Neville, Cho, Sirius, bah, poor Eloise Midgen are not getting any help either, although their life is not immediately threatened.

Skipping the peer part (Ron not comforting Harry etc.) I'd like to adress the professional psychological help - which is nonexistant in WW. As much as JKR is inventive in helping thir character restore their physical health - and we must say thet in Hogwarts medical servises are very good and St. Mungo's isn't bad either - she compltely abandoned the psychically. I guess none of 19th cent. boarding schools had a school psychologist, but - following the analogy - there were other people providing such help, e.g. chaplains (whtever one may think about them, to a large extent they function as moern theraputists - they let the person to talk the things out).

What is more more surprising is that JKR provided Wizards psychologists-to-be with amazing tools, many Muggle theraputists and researchers would give the right arm for: Pensieve, Obliviate, Legilimency, not to mention psychoactive potions. So that lack of psycho-Healers, IMO, constitutes a huge gap in JKR world (and one of main reason why I don't consider her a "world-creator" author). Note: if somebody is going to point out that psychology is a modern science - yes, I know it, but psychoterapy (just under different name) functioned long before Freud and Co. Many very so-called primitive tribes had rituals and other ways for dealing with psychological problems. 

The only reason I see for it has nothing to do with HP books per se. It's the question of the author, who after being cold shouldered for a long time, having nobody to hep her, developed very strong "cope yourself" attitude (she probably doesn't know much about psychology either). Probably having no RL models of psychologists or just friends willing to help or just letting  her pur her grieves out, she didn't introduce them into the world she created. Even though it would be a logcal development of the tools she has shown us.

Thank for patience. Viridis.
________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!



From stevejjen at earthlink.net  Wed Mar 31 18:58:14 2004
From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 18:58:14 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <20040331154508.82568.qmail@web14810.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c4f4c6+l6j1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94690

Jen: 
> On the heels of what happened the night before with
> Serverus' "severe disappointment", I'm very doubtful that Snape's
> motive was *primarily* the students safety.

>Vickey:
> How about a fear for his own safety?... He was almost attacked and 
would have been killed by Lupin as a boy...that is going to cause 
him to have some prejudices based in fear about werewolves, one in 
particular.  He was probably uncomfortable being around Lupin, 
especially given how close he had to work with him.  And fear is not 
always logical, even though it wouldn't have been Lupin's fault when 
they were kids, Severus will still resent him for it.
> 

Jen: Part of my response from post #94597 got snipped in the course 
of this thread, but I think it's a very important point about 
Snape's actions (so, I'll just print it again <g>). I think it holds 
true for *whatever* motivation Snape had the day he told the 
Slytherin students about Lupin.

Snape, even if he was extremely fearful for his own or the students 
safety, did not to our knowledge take one of these actions 
before 'outing' Lupin:

A) Snape going to Lupin prior to outing him and say, "hey, I'm 
giving you a chance to leave first. If you don't, I'm telling 
everyone you're a werewolf"; 

B) Snape going to Dumbledore with basically the same message--"take 
this chance to let Lupin go or I'm going to make his miserable life 
more miserable"; or 

C) Snape talking to faculty and staff, then going to Dumbledore 
instead of the *students* for gosh sakes.

Any one of these steps would tell me Snape's primary interest is 
getting the werewolf out of the school for *whatever* reason. What 
he did is revenge. Not unmotivated revenge--no doubt there--but 
revenge all the same. 

Jen, who will gladly apologize to Snape if we find out he gave Lupin 
or Dumbledore an ultimatum prior to his actions ;).




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Mar 31 17:54:51 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 17:54:51 -0000
Subject: Drill Sargeant (with a tiny bit of ontopic talk...)
In-Reply-To: <c4em3k+mo9k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4f0lb+osjv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94691

> 
> Siriusly Snapey Susan:
> I snipped Neri's & Anne's comments [sorry] in the interest of 
> brevity, and please keep in mind I'm reacting to the whole 
thread, 
> not just this message.
> 
> I will make one last feeble attempt to bring out a difference that 
I  think is KEY.  HRH & their class of Hogwarts students begin w/ 
Snape  at age **11** and the war is **NOT** yet on.  They are 
boarding  school students, not military academy students or 
enlistees.  No one  has **told** them that their lives are in 
danger and they damn well  better listen & learn this stuff 
because their *lives* depend on it.  
> When a person goes into the military, he or she is 1) older and 
2)  *knows* his/her life depends upon listening & learning every 
detail.
> 
> Doesn't anybody else out there think this is an important 
difference  in the learning process?  That one must 
*understand* the mission in  order for the drill sergeant routine 
to be most effective?  <<

We don't know that Snape is as tough on everybody else as he is 
on Harry and Neville. In fact, Harry tells Hagrid that Snape has 
something against him personally and Hagrid gets evasive. We 
think, later, that it's the old grudge. But suppose it's more than 
that? At least some of the DE's know about the prophecy--and 
who does Snape single out for his drill sergeant routine? Harry 
and Neville, the Prophecy twins. Snape wouldn't know that 
Neville has been eliminated, because Dumbledore hasn't told 
anyone what the full prophecy says.

So, as Dumbledore's agent and  an ex-DE, Snape knows these 
things:
(1)  It's him or Voldemort --you don't retire from the DE's
(2) Voldemort will be vanquished by "the one" -- Harry Potter or 
Neville Longbottom
(3) Voldemort knows about (2)
(4) Dumbledore doesn't want Harry to know about (2)
(5) Dumbledore believes that Voldemort could return at any 
moment.

 Harry and Neville don't get to opt out of the war, because even if 
they don't want to fight Voldemort, he's going to  murder 
them.  Snape is doing his level best to prepare them for this 
war, because if they fail, he *dies.* And he can't explain all of
this, because Dumbledore won't let him.

That doesn't mean Snape'd be nice to Harry  otherwise. The 
grudge is real enough. But it's not the only reason for Snape's 
behavior.

Pippin








From kcawte at ntlworld.com  Wed Mar 31 17:59:36 2004
From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 18:59:36 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mary Sue
References: <c4ev54+upmr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000d01c41749$ef7bb590$bcde6251@kathryn>

No: HPFGUIDX 94692


>
> Not American--though the name would seem to be. In fanfiction (aka
fic--that is, stories
> written using the characters and stituations from a particular television
program or, say,
> young adult fantasy novel series) a "Mary Sue" is a character that stands
in for the author
> him/herself. Usually this is considered an unworthy literary technique,
even in the
> heterogenous world of fic. ;-)
>
> To get an idea of what fic is about, take a look at
http://www.fictionally.org/
>
> Antosha (American and spending too much time on the internet)
>
K

In addition some people consider *all* original characters to be Mary Sues
(or Gary Stus if male) whereas others only consider the really bad examples
to be MS - for example bad writer's of HP fic often introduce a beautiful,
talented young woman (often an American exchange student if the author is
American) who is brighter than Hermione, stunningly attractive and can
defeat Voldemort with a single spell, she may even have 'magical' blood
(elven etc). The female characters will immediately consider her their best
friend and the men will all love her. She will inevitably end up
dating/married too (adjust depending on her age) whoever the author likes
best (Harry, Ron, Remus, Sev, Sirius etc).

I can think of a couple of published authors who are guilt of Mary Sues
too - JKR fortunately isn't one of them (and how was that for an heroic
effort to make this OT post *on* topic) although I imagine some people would
consider Hermione to be approaching Mary Suehood, she has too many faults to
be a MS in my opinion, and just enough for her to be a 'real' character. The
real acid test for a Mary Sue is probably if she's so good it makes your
teeth hurt but despite that you still have the irresistible urge to cut her
heart out with a rusty spoon :)

K
"The Loudest Noise Comes From The Electric Minerva."





From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Wed Mar 31 19:17:24 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 31 Mar 2004 21:17:24 +0200
Subject: Psychological help II [ was Re: Harry's disposition]
Message-ID: <20040331191724.EAE011EC79E@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 94693

> bboy_mn:
> Given the hell and loneliness Harry has had to endure,
> if he were a
> typical modern suburban teen, he would probably end up
> in the Great
> Hall with an AK-47 taking out his frustration on
> anyone and everyone
> who fell between his sights. 
> 
> But then that's just my opinion.

Just to add to my longish post about lack of psychological help in WW - the guys in Hogwarts are going around armed with worse things than AK-47 (which is quite bulky :))
Some pshy-babble would handy.
Surprising there are no heavy causalties - I always wondered about lack of serious accidents in the school, even without all this stress and angst.

Cheers, Viridis
________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!



From nkafkafi at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 31 19:05:38 2004
From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 19:05:38 -0000
Subject: OT: Drill Sargeant (with a tiny bit of ontopic talk...)
In-Reply-To: <c4em3k+mo9k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4f4q2+fi1k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94694

Neri:
Hmmm, I'll try to stay on topic, but no promises...

Siriusly Snapey Susan:
HRH & their class of Hogwarts students begin w/ Snape
at age **11** and the war is **NOT** yet on. They are boarding
school students, not military academy students or enlistees. No one
has **told** them that their lives are in danger and they damn well
better listen & learn this stuff because their *lives* depend on it.
When a person goes into the military, he or she is 1) older and 2)
*knows* his/her life depends upon listening & learning every detail.

Neri answers:
Susan is absolutely right of course. Kids are not soldiers, and there 
is plenty of canon that Snape's Asshole Drill Sergeant (ADS) methods 
don't work very well. My point is that they won't work well even for 
grown-up soldiers, not to mention young children. Snape is doing a 
poor job even as an ADS, for reasons I'll discuss below.

EnsTren  wrote:
As I am a Psyc major and studing learning at the moment I thought I 
might chip in. <snip> Humans learn quickly when our lives depend upon 
it, it's a natural reaction. <snip> Army Training /deliberetly/ takes 
advantage of this. The Drill Sargeant is there, in your face, yelling 
at you inorder to convince your subconconcious that Yes, you are 
going to suffer horribly if you don't learn this and quickly.


{Silverthorne}
Um....*most* of the people I've talked to who have been in the 
military and
have also had these people for training would strongly disagree, 
Neri. <snip> Hmmmmm...then the military really *has* changed. 
Odd....maybe I should go
review Air Force training with my cousin Jason Nygren, see what 
exactly he
went through to get his wings...because the other three branches seem 
to
share a less...um...stress free method. (That would be Navy 
(Grandfather,
Lifemate, 2 co-workers), Marines (Uncle, best friend, boyfriend, 1
co-worker), Army (Three former boyfriends, 2 female friends, three
co-workers).


Neri answers:
I'm not a psych major and I was only a humble artillery sergeant 
(with some infantry operational experience, though), but I'll propose 
a simple experiment you can try with any of your military-background 
friends. First, ask them to write down a range of skills they learned 
during their service, from doing their bed to shooting a rifle to 
flying an F-16. Then ask them to grade each of these skills from 1 to 
10 according to how complex and difficult it is. Then ask them to 
grade each of these skills from 1 to 10 according to how much it was 
taught using ADS methods. I predict that there will be a strong 
negative correlation between the these two factors: as a skill is 
more complex and more difficult, it will be less likely to be taught 
using ADS methods, especially during the initial phase of teaching, 
when the skill is still new to the student. Don't take my word for 
this. Just try it with your friends.  

Besides, even the most asshole, stupidest meanest drill sergeant 
won't use ADS methods when his trainees are shooting their rifles for 
the first time. The reason is that he doesn't want to get shot by 
mistake by a hysteric trainee. 

In my humble experience, ADS methods are for maintaining discipline, 
not for teaching difficult and subtle skills such as potions 
brewing.       


{Silverthorne}
One person's humiliation is another's no-brainer. Some people 
consider being asked to 'get down and give me fifty' for a mistake a 
humiliation <snip>

Neri: 
No reasonable person will consider 'get down and give me fifty' a 
humiliation for long if he/she learns that all trainees are equally 
likely to do it. He will, however, consider almost *any* task a 
humiliation if he learns that it is invariably inflicted on people 
with a certain skin color or a certain foreign sound to their surname 
or from a certain house. Snape blew up even his drill sergeant 
credibility when he has discriminated against Gryffindors and favored 
incapable students such as Crabbe and Goyle. Snape may be a superb 
secret agent, but none of his "trainees" will follow him as a 
commander under fire.


Neri 





From bufo_viridis at interia.pl  Wed Mar 31 19:21:55 2004
From: bufo_viridis at interia.pl (bufo_viridis at interia.pl)
Date: 31 Mar 2004 21:21:55 +0200
Subject: OT: Supermemory [was Re: Is Hermione Supposed....]
Message-ID: <20040331192155.F31BE1EC78B@front.interia.pl>

No: HPFGUIDX 94695

> Bill: 
> Mark Twain's autobiographical book 'Life on the Mississippi' 
> contains an account of a river-pilot who had a perfect memory.
> 
> I don't know how accurate this is, but if somebody did in fact have 
> a near-perfect memory, it sounds plausible to me.
> 
The most famous case of a man who remembered literally everything is described in *The Mind of a Mnemonist: A Little Book About a Vast Memory*
by Aleksandr R. Luria.
Short info can be found here:
http://www.dreamhawk.com/Memory.HTM

Happy reading.
Viridis
________________________
Curiouser and curiouser!



From ms-tamany at rcn.com  Wed Mar 31 19:23:29 2004
From: ms-tamany at rcn.com (Tammy Rizzo)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 14:23:29 -0500
Subject: Why Couldn't Ron and Hermione Hear the Basilisk?
In-Reply-To: <1080754271.20251.69220.m7@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <406AD461.17025.11402FC@localhost>

No: HPFGUIDX 94696

Robert Jones asked:

> COS explains that Harry could understand the Basilisk because he was a
> Parseltongue.  But why couldn't Ron and Hermione even *hear* it?
> Shouldn't it have made a hiss or some other snaky noise?  Nothing in
> the book suggests that a Parseltongue could read a snake's mind or had
> especially acute hearing ? so shouldn't there have been some noise for
> Ron and Hermione to hear?


Now Tammy replies:

Have you ever spent much time in a castle?  I have, as a child in Germany (Dad was 
in the Army).  There are *always* faint echoes (try walking quietly on stone, in boots), 
and stone-settling sounds, and creaks and groans and other little noises.  Pipes in 
walls gurgle.  Wind whistles through tiny cracks and howls through larger holes.  
They're noisy places.  What's a little extra hissing?  ;-)

***
Tammy
ms-tamany at rcn.com




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Wed Mar 31 19:35:05 2004
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 19:35:05 -0000
Subject: Drill Sargeant (with a tiny bit of ontopic talk...)
In-Reply-To: <c4f0lb+osjv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4f6h9+6sh5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94697

Siriusly Snapey Susan:
> > I will make one last feeble attempt to bring out a difference 
> > that I  think is KEY.  HRH & their class of Hogwarts students 
> > begin w/ Snape  at age **11** and the war is **NOT** yet on.  
> > They are boarding  school students, not military academy students 
> > or enlistees.  No one  has **told** them that their lives are in 
> > danger and they damn well  better listen & learn this stuff 
> > because their *lives* depend on it.  
> > When a person goes into the military, he or she is 1) older and 
> > 2)  *knows* his/her life depends upon listening & learning every 
> > detail.
> > 
> > Doesn't anybody else out there think this is an important 
> > difference  in the learning process?  That one must 
> > *understand* the mission in  order for the drill sergeant routine 
> > to be most effective?  <<

Pippin:
> We don't know that Snape is as tough on everybody else as he is 
> on Harry and Neville. In fact, Harry tells Hagrid that Snape has 
> something against him personally and Hagrid gets evasive. We 
> think, later, that it's the old grudge. But suppose it's more than 
> that? At least some of the DE's know about the prophecy--and 
> who does Snape single out for his drill sergeant routine? Harry 
> and Neville, the Prophecy twins. Snape wouldn't know that 
> Neville has been eliminated, because Dumbledore hasn't told 
> anyone what the full prophecy says.
> 
> So, as Dumbledore's agent and  an ex-DE, Snape knows these 
> things:
> (1)  It's him or Voldemort --you don't retire from the DE's
> (2) Voldemort will be vanquished by "the one" -- Harry Potter or 
> Neville Longbottom
> (3) Voldemort knows about (2)
> (4) Dumbledore doesn't want Harry to know about (2)
> (5) Dumbledore believes that Voldemort could return at any 
> moment.
> 
> Harry and Neville don't get to opt out of the war, because even if 
> they don't want to fight Voldemort, he's going to  murder 
> them.  Snape is doing his level best to prepare them for this 
> war, because if they fail, he *dies.* And he can't explain all of
> this, because Dumbledore won't let him.
> 
> That doesn't mean Snape'd be nice to Harry  otherwise. The 
> grudge is real enough. But it's not the only reason for Snape's 
> behavior.

Siriusly Snapey Susan again:
I want to get to your points very soon, Pippin, but I think I should 
say first off that I don't think I'm doing a very good job, yet 
again :-\ , of expressing my thoughts.  In this "branch" of the 
thread, I actually wasn't trying to make a case that Snape is using 
drill sergeant methods with all of his students so much as saying 
that *if* he were, that I don't think it's a good practice in this 
setting--with this age student, and without student knowledge & 
understanding of a war setting.

There.  Now on to what you've said here.  I think I *do* understand 
what you're saying, Pippin, particularly about why Snape may see this 
as war because he knows about the prophecy... and why he's not 
allowed to explain all of that to Harry & Neville.  I guess if all of 
what you're describing *is* the true situation, then I'd say we're 
back to my other argument:  that, if it's really THAT important for 
Snape to prepare these two particular students for the inevitable 
battle(s) with Voldy, he's GOT to find a way to reach them.  Being 
cruel, sarcastic & nasty doesn't seem to be cutting it w/ the two 
students who most need to learn, so why doesn't he STOP the drill 
sergeant routine w/ them and find a way to help them learn?  SURELY 
he can *see* that it's not working with them?  

Hmmmm.  Maybe *that's* part of what I'm struggling with!  If Snape is 
as brilliant as I think he is, why isn't he able to see that his 
methods AREN'T helping Neville & Harry to learn & to perform under 
pressure?  If he cares about The Order and defeating Voldy--as I 
believe he does--then why isn't he re-evaluating his technique with 
Harry & Neville?

Thanks for asking things in a way which helped me re-focus that 
question, Pippin.  Now maybe somebody can help me figure out the 
possible answers.

Siriusly Snapey Susan






From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Mar 31 19:35:05 2004
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 19:35:05 -0000
Subject: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment
In-Reply-To: <c4f4c6+l6j1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4f6h9+v93d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94698

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" 
<stevejjen at e...> wrote:

> Snape, even if he was extremely fearful for his own or the 
students 
> safety, did not to our knowledge take one of these actions 
> before 'outing' Lupin:
> 
> A) Snape going to Lupin prior to outing him and say, "hey, I'm 
> giving you a chance to leave first. If you don't, I'm telling 
> everyone you're a werewolf"; 
> 
> B) Snape going to Dumbledore with basically the same 
message--"take 
> this chance to let Lupin go or I'm going to make his miserable 
life 
> more miserable"; or 
> 
> C) Snape talking to faculty and staff, then going to Dumbledore 
> instead of the *students* for gosh sakes.
> 
> Any one of these steps would tell me Snape's primary interest 
>is  getting the werewolf out of the school for *whatever* reason. 

I'm not sure I understand. The staff already knew that Lupin was 
a werewolf, and there is a werewolf registry. Any future 
employer would be able to find out, either by checking the 
registry or asking for references.

There are two different accounts of why Lupin quit. Hagrid says 
he resigned "First thing this mornin'. Says he can't risk it 
happenin' again."

Lupin says that Snape "accidentally" let slip that he was a 
werewolf, as if he would have stayed on if the news hadn't gotten 
out. But then he says that the parents are right, it is too 
dangerous for him to work at Hogwarts. Lupin himself told 
Hagrid that he couldn't risk  it happening again. If he would have 
resigned anyway without pressure from the parents, then Snape 
did no harm. If he wouldn't seriously have considered resigning 
without pressure from the parents, then Snape was right.

  We don't know whether Lupin, who resigned "first thing 
this morning" did so before or after Snape made his "accidental" 
announcement. Either way Snape's announcement did not force 
Lupin's resignation. Lupin running loose on the grounds forced 
his resignation. The only thing telling the students did was make 
it harder for Lupin to reconsider his decision to quit. How is that 
revenge?

 If anyone was damaged by Snape's announcement, it was 
Dumbledore, since he's the one who looked bad for hiring a 
careless werewolf.


Pippin
who doesn't buy for a momen that Lupin was so distressed 
about Peter that he forgot about his potion. Calm and collected 
the whole time, he is.





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Wed Mar 31 19:37:46 2004
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 19:37:46 -0000
Subject: Mary Sue
In-Reply-To: <000d01c41749$ef7bb590$bcde6251@kathryn>
Message-ID: <c4f6ma+t93d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94699

-K wrote:
 The  real acid test for a Mary Sue is probably if she's so good it 
makes your
> teeth hurt but despite that you still have the irresistible urge to 
cut her
> heart out with a rusty spoon :)
 
> K
> "The Loudest Noise Comes From The Electric Minerva."


Potioncat:
1. What is an Electric Minerva?
2. Responding to cutting out a heart with a rusty spoon, do you 
recall Ron describing Snape as looking as if someone had cancelled 
Christmas?
3. Any nominees for Sheriff of Ottery Saint Catchpole?

I apologize for being so OT.




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 31 19:27:11 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 19:27:11 -0000
Subject: Snape as struggling convert?
Message-ID: <c4f62f+pfe2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94700

The Leaky Cauldron has posted a link to a very interesting article
comparing Snape to a convert to Judaism. Sounds strange, I realize,
but I think the writer shows some insights into Snape's internal
struggle as far as it can be determined from our outsider's
perspective (seeing beyond what Harry sees). Forgive me if this link
has already been posted, but I'm very behind as usual. I recommend the
article for both those who like Snape and those who hate him so that
they'll understand why some of us admire him or even identify with him
despite his many faults:

http://www.jewsweek.com/bin/en.jsp?enPage=BlankPage&enDisplay=view&enDispWhat=object&enDispWho=Article%5El1006&enZone=Opinions&enVersion=0

Many thanks to the Leaky Cauldron editors for posting this article.

Carol, who believes that Snape can be redeemed without dying (he's not
Boromir!) or turning into a nice guy




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 31 19:51:43 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 19:51:43 -0000
Subject: Could Snape be part goblin?
In-Reply-To: <c4c86k+55ct@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4f7gf+ps8s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94701

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "khilari2000" <hannah at r...> wrote:
> Hi, I have posted before, but only once, ages ago and under a 
> different name. Then my Yahoo account dissappeared. Anyway, with all 
> the posts about whether Snape is a vampire or not I thought I'd weigh 
> in with my theory. I do feel it's fairly logical and would be 
> interested in whether anyone can find anything in canon to 
> refute/support it.
> 
> To start with I thought it was unlikely that Snape is spying on 
> Voldemort, LV would have to be pretty stupid to accept him back 
> without real proof that he was a DE. So it seems like Snape has 
> either proven he is a DE, which I don't believe, or is not spying on 
> Voldemort. So then I thought, if he hasn't gone to join the DEs, 
> where has he gone? Well, the other two people on dangerous missions 
> that summer were Lupin and Hagrid, both liasing with non-human 
> beings. So I wondered if Snape were doing the same thing for the same 
> reason. Isn't there supposed to be a pattern of threes in the HP 
> books? In that case it would be logical for him to be liasing with 
> the goblins, as the other major non-human race mentioned in the 
> books. It would be a dangerous task to judge by the fact that the 
> goblin rebellions were eventful enough that they are all Harry ever 
> seems to study! And as the other two envoys were half-breeds it 
> seemed logical that Snape could be one too.
> 
> His appearance could be said to support this theory, as he is 
> described as having a hooked nose and sallow skin. Also goblins have 
> a sadistic streak, judging by some of the traps at Gringotts.
> I apologise for a long post, but thought that if I was going to toss 
> another Snapey theory into the mix I ought to justify it.


I must say this is, as far as I know, an original perspective, but
it's not one I see any evidence for. First, we see Snape's parents in
one of his memories, and they're clearly human. Also, he would never
have been accepted into Slytherin, much less accepted as head of
Slytherin House, if he had any such doubtful parentage. There aren't
even the dubious red herring-style clues ("swept out of the room like
an overgrown bat") that we find for the vampire theory. Sallow skin
and a hooked nose do not a half-goblin make. (Neither do the long
fingers you didn't mention: All of the really powerful wizards,
including DD, LV, and Ollivander, have them.) Nor do we see Snape
demonstrating any interest whatever in gold, the apparent be-all and
end-all of a goblin's existence. 

Carol




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 31 20:13:05 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 20:13:05 -0000
Subject: Snape's house
In-Reply-To: <c4ckr1+8tin@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4f8oh+85b3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94702

> Mike wrote:
><snip> 
> I can't remember exactly how she ended up tied up in Umbridge's 
> office with the others right now, but I'm going to assume that she's 
> just friends with Ginny. After all, how many Gryffindor friends does 
> Ginny even have? I don't seem to recall her ever being mentioned 
> around with other Gryffindors in her year. She usually rides the 
> train with the trio does she not?
> 
> I suppose after the school finding out you were being controlled by 
> Voldie and setting a Basilisk around the castle you wouldn't be that 
> popular would you?

Carol:
I don't think the school knows any such thing. As I've posted
eslewhere, DD seems concerned to protect Ginny and to make sure she is
not punished for being a victim of Riddle/Voldemort. The details given
at the celebratory banquet are very limited and neither the basilisk
nor Riddle/Voldemort is mentioned--only Harry and Ron as Ginny's
rescuers from the Chamber of Secrets. Terry Boot (IIRC) finds out from
a portrait in DD's office that Harry used Godric Gryffindor's sword to
kill a basilisk and asks Harry in the Hog's Head chapter of OoP if
it's true. The implication is that neither he )a prefect in Harry's
own year) nor anyone else outside a select few knows what happened in
the Chamber of Secrets.

And Ginny, for all her upbeat, outgoing, slightly mischievous
personality, would (IMO) never have found the courage to try out for
Quidditch or defend Neville or join the DA if she were facing constant
finger-pointing as the girl who had opened the Chamber of Secrets
under Tom Riddle's control. We never see any such behavior on the part
of the other students--and surely Draco Malfoy would take the lead in
Ginny-baiting if he knew what she had done (and could insult her
without incriminating his own father). As far as I can determine, the
extent of Ginny's role is a secret that only Dumbledore, her family,
Harry, Hermione and perhaps the members of the Order know. If Draco
also knows it, he has his own reasons for remaining quiet.

As an aside, I'm not even sure that Percy believes that Diary!Tom was
a manifestation of Voldemort. Either that or he thinks that destroying
Tom destroyed Voldemort. Otherwise, his conduct in OoP is inexplicable.

Carol







From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 31 20:22:21 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 20:22:21 -0000
Subject: JKR didn't say "No: was re: Life-saving bonds
In-Reply-To: <c4cl7s+u7lf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4f99t+on0a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94703

Pippin wrote:
<snip> "Erm...I don't think so." Meaning, 'Well-spotted, but don't let's 
spoil the surprise.' <g>
> 
> 
Sembei chimed in:
"Erm... I don't think so." Meaning, 'There is no link between Snape 
and other vampires' ;)
> 
> 

Or "There is no link between Snape and vampires," period. "Other" is
not part of the question. Please note that "don't" includes "not," a
form of "no." If there were any chance of Snape's being a vampire and
she wanted to keep us in suspense, she would have worded the statement
in positive form, as in "Possibly," or "He might be," or "I don't want
to tell you because it would spoil the surprise." 

Is red blue? I don't think so. Does two plus two equal five? I don't
think so. Is Harry Hermione? I don't think so. Is Snape a vampire? I
don't think so.

Carol




From helenhorsley at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 31 20:40:05 2004
From: helenhorsley at hotmail.com (dorapye)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 20:40:05 -0000
Subject: The bucking broomstick (Was:  Snape's house)
In-Reply-To: <c4ekla+i67j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4fab5+bjs2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94704

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" 
<arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote:
>>>  
> Besides, it makes for a nicely rounded set of replays; Snape bucks 
James
> off, James suspends Snape in an embaraasing position. Snap.

snip!
dorapye:
Okay, always enjoy the challenge of viewing things differently, in a 
Kneasy-stylee, but having considered this one, I'm inclined to side 
with the view that it is the young Snape on the broom, and so I'll 
explain my reasoning:

We know in canon how much alike Harry and James are; so much alike, 
in fact, that practically everyone who used to know James feels the 
need to comment on it (doesn't DD say he looks 'extraordinarily like 
his father'?). And we also know that this extends to their physical 
build too (OotP, Pensieve scene, when Harry says that looking at his 
15 year old father, he could tell that if James stood up, James and 
he would be within a inch of each other in height).

So, the 'scrawny boy' on the broomstick?  I can't recall that Harry 
has *ever* been described as 'scrawny' in the entire series - small 
for his age, skinny, but never 'scrawny', which is hardly a 
flattering observation to make of someone.

Harry would, surely, despite being deprived of his father, or of 
even seeing his father's image, for most of his life, instinctively 
recognise his father as a youngster (as in fact he does, in the 
Pensieve scene) and the memory would be v quickly interpreted by 
Harry as showing James, if indeed it did.

Snape as an adolescent, however, would be quite difficult for Harry 
to immediately recognise, as he would no doubt struggle to imagine 
his fearsome Potions Master as a vulnerable teenager.

> 
> Also there is the nature  of memories - don't know about you but 
most
> of mine are from an observers point of view, like watching a 
video. So 
> there is a chance that very few of Snape's actually feature Snape 
as the
> central character. 
> 
> I love being devious.
> 
Actually, I posted on this before, ages ago, about how psychologists 
have it down as fact that when we recall memories of incidents in 
which we played a part, we replay the memories in our minds like we 
are watching a movie in which we are the star - our viewpiont of the 
events is somewhere outside of our bodies and we see ourselves 
physically represented in the frame, as though the camera is on us.

This effect has been used to explain Out of Body or Near Death 
experiences. (perhaps deja vu as well? had a freaky one this 
afternoon!)

How we recall things we merely witness though, i.e. someone else's 
car crash, a school science experiment which produced something 
interesting (I can live in hope - science teacher, here), well, this 
is more likely to be recalled as if you are playing a videotape 
recorded by your eyes.

But that argument you had with a colleague last week, that 
presentation you had to do before a roomful of peers, that trip to 
the zoo with your best mate last weekend, or whatever, these are 
replayed as if viewed from a position o/s of the body.

This is why the Pensieve viewpoint never bothered me.  It actually 
makes perfect sense to me; as does Snape's memories of Snape 
himself, on a bucking broomstick.  

And yes, whoever previously posted on the sexual slur the bucking 
broomstick seems to cast on teenage Sanpe, in front of a laughing 
female, yeah, I believe we are meant to infer this - this was a 
jinxed broom, another humiliating prank, most probably perpretrated 
by MWPP.IMHO, anyway.

dorapye 




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 31 20:43:49 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 20:43:49 -0000
Subject: Underage magic enforcement
In-Reply-To: <c4cn7t+uqjr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4fai5+ec5t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94705

> Robin wrote:
My question is why wasn't Harry punished for what he did in MoM to
Bellatrix at the end of OotP?  Anyone got any theories?  

Carol:
I'm not sure that the MoM is monitored, as homes are, to detect
underage magic, and certainly a lot of underage magic was performed in
the MoM other than Harry's failed Crucio. But I think the main point
is that the spell *failed*. If he had really Crucio'd Bellatrix, with
all the power and malice required to perform that spell, he'd be a
different Harry. The illegality of the spell is less important than
the powers of corruption that make it Unforgiveable. IMO, he attempted
but did not perform the spell. And I hope he learned a lesson from it:
You do not use the Enemy's weapons against him unless you want to
become a Barty Crouch, Sr. That, IMO, is the reason that DD teaches
*Defence* against the Dark Arts, but not the Dark Arts themselves. It
will be possible to defeat LV without performing a (successful)
Crucio, Imperio, or Avada Kedavra.


Mo wrote:
<snip> I have always wondered why only STUDENTS were forbiden to use
magic under the decree of Underage Wizadry. .... Now, I don't know if
the ministry doesn't regulate them too much because they aren't old
enought to have a wand, yet, and their magic can't do anything
significant. But, I WOULD like to know why they are allowed, and
Hogwarts student's aren't.

Carol:
If, as others have speculated, the underage magic is detected by
identifying the wand, then a child under eleven would be using someone
else's wand or no wand at all, and the MoM could not identify the
child who cast the spell. I also think (hope) that it would be the
parents' responsibility to monitor their young children's behavior.
Otherwise, the WW would be a police state in which the authorities
take over the parents' role. It would be like having the local
sheriff's deputy arresting your child if he swears at his grandmother
in public. (I don't want to get into whether we really have such a
police state in the RW, which tends to think the parents are at fault!)

Carol, who is not at all sure she's correct here




From helenhorsley at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 31 20:58:16 2004
From: helenhorsley at hotmail.com (dorapye)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 20:58:16 -0000
Subject: Underage magic enforcement
In-Reply-To: <c4fai5+ec5t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4fbd8+660f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94706

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" 
<justcarol67 at y...> wrote:
>> 
> Mo wrote:
> <snip> I have always wondered why only STUDENTS were forbiden to 
use
> magic under the decree of Underage Wizadry. .... Now, I don't know 
if
> the ministry doesn't regulate them too much because they aren't old
> enought to have a wand, yet, and their magic can't do anything
> significant. But, I WOULD like to know why they are allowed, and
> Hogwarts student's aren't.
> 
> Carol:
> If, as others have speculated, the underage magic is detected by
> identifying the wand, then a child under eleven would be using 
someone
> else's wand or no wand at all, and the MoM could not identify the
> child who cast the spell. I also think (hope) that it would be the
> parents' responsibility to monitor their young children's behavior.
> Otherwise, the WW would be a police state in which the authorities
> take over the parents' role. It would be like having the local
> sheriff's deputy arresting your child if he swears at his 
grandmother
> in public. (I don't want to get into whether we really have such a
> police state in the RW, which tends to think the parents are at 
fault!)
> 
dorapye:
I suppose it could be similar to a Muggle child reaching an age of 
assumed moral responsibility, where children are deemed *in Legal 
terms* to understand and be able to distinguish between right and 
wrong, and can therefore be held accountable for any crimes they 
commit.  I think that age is 10 years old here in the UK, but I 
guess it may have changed since I last checked...(uh-oh, primary 
school teacher admitting ignorance about children's laws...)

Perhaps, in the WW, it is assumed, not that children pre-Hogwarts 
aren't magically powerful enough to cause the Ministry problems with 
the concealment of Magic from Muggles, or to cause Magical 
Accidents, but that they are not 'morally accountable' for the magic 
that they may do, with their Dad's wand, their own wand (?what are 
the laws there?) or without a wand at all.

After a year at Hogwarts however, and for Muggle-borns their 
induction into the WW, it is considered that the young person is 
capable of adhering to the rules and controlling Accidental Wandless 
Magic, so they are subject to the WW Laws about Underage Wizardry.

Just an idea. How does it hold up?

dorapye




From drednort at alphalink.com.au  Wed Mar 31 20:59:43 2004
From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately)
Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 06:59:43 +1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OT: Drill Sargeant (with a tiny bit of ontopic talk...)
In-Reply-To: <c4em3k+mo9k@eGroups.com>
References: <332E5197.7F01D135.00170183@aol.com>
Message-ID: <406BBDDF.21572.2C8BBA7@localhost>

No: HPFGUIDX 94707

I've been following this with interest, because my father was a 
military drill instructor - not a sergeant because he was in the 
Navy, but he spent the latter part of his Naval Career as a Recruit 
Instructor, and apparently was a good one. My mother had also been 
a senior Naval NCO before I was born - so my childhood was rather 
regimented (-8

On 31 Mar 2004 at 14:54, cubfanbudwoman wrote:

> EnsTren at a... wrote:
> > Humans learn quickly when our lives depend upon it, it's a natural 
> reaction.  If you are in iminante danger of getting physically harmed 
> or killed your brain and body kick into overdrive, which is why 
> craming and doing it the night before it's due papers sometimes work 
> for people.  When you're on your last leg most people perform better.
> 
> > You lean faster and it gets embeded deeper into you.  Army 
> Training /deliberetly/ takes advantage of this.  The Drill Sargeant 
> is there, in your face, yelling at you inorder to convince your 
> subconconcious that Yes, you are going to suffer horribly if you 
> don't learn this and quickly.
>  
> > In Harry's case...well, honestly I think it's partially snape's 
> fault for it, he's so combative/angry he can't respect snape and 
> can't learn.  If Snape hadn't singled him out and etc etc Harry might 
> have been more willing to learn.  As it is, well, I think, though the 
> armed forced experts can correct me, if Harry tried his 
> attitude/reaction set with a Drill Sargeant, and he was a recruit as 
> opposed to a student, he'd get kicked out.
> 
> 
> Siriusly Snapey Susan:
> I snipped Neri's & Anne's comments [sorry] in the interest of 
> brevity, and please keep in mind I'm reacting to the whole thread, 
> not just this message.
> 
> I will make one last feeble attempt to bring out a difference that I 
> think is KEY.  HRH & their class of Hogwarts students begin w/ Snape 
> at age **11** and the war is **NOT** yet on.  They are boarding 
> school students, not military academy students or enlistees.  No one 
> has **told** them that their lives are in danger and they damn well 
> better listen & learn this stuff because their *lives* depend on it.  
> When a person goes into the military, he or she is 1) older and 2) 
> *knows* his/her life depends upon listening & learning every detail.
> 
> Doesn't anybody else out there think this is an important difference 
> in the learning process?  That one must *understand* the mission in 
> order for the drill sergeant routine to be most effective?  
> Somebody...anybody...? :-|  [EnsTren, you may be getting at this 
> somewhat in your final paragraph....]

I see the difference, you're talking about - but honestly, no, I 
don't think it's an important difference when you consider the 
Wizarding World as it is presented to us.

Brief lesson on Australian history to explain why I feel that way. 
Late in the 19th Century, it was believed in Australia that we 
faced invasion by the Russians. I won't go into precisely why they 
believed that - but it was a real fear. By the early twentieth 
century, that fear had transferred to a fear of invasion by the 
Germans.

Australia, at the time, had a very small population - it still only 
has 20 million people today. There was no realistic way we could 
form a regular military large enough to defend ourselves. The 
response was the creation of - well, citizen militias. Ordinary 
civilians were given basic military training.

As the level of fear, and likelihood of war increased, such 
training became compulsory for all males between the ages of 12 to 
26. There were real plans in place to put 14 year old boys into 
actual combat if Australia was ever invaded. Many schools had 
military training for this reason - including real drill 
instructors. There's an excellent Australian short film - if anyone 
ever gets the chance to see it - called 'Boy Soldiers' about a boy 
who refuses to drill as a Conscientious Objector - and is 
imprisoned for that refusal. There are actually still remnants of 
these days in schools today - many of Australia's top schools still 
maintain units of the military cadet corps and people join at 13 - 
although it's voluntary now (or at the very least, alternatives 
such as St. John's Ambulance are offered for those who do not wish 
military training.).

The Wizarding World we see is one that is, in many ways, rather 
'old fashioned' by our standards. It's a society that has had to 
fight a war which it seems they barely won - and one in which 
civilians seem to have been targeted more or less at random to 
create terror. It's a society which does have a large population, 
that can support a large military/police force to deal with that 
emergency.

I wouldn't be at all surprised at a decision being taken to make 
sure children are ready to step into a 'war' situation if it arises 
again. I certainly wouldn't find it surprising if individuals have 
that attitude even if society in general doesn't.

We live in a world of professional militaries and decent sized 
police forces who can spare us the necessity of considering the 
need to train children to be ready to defend themselves in that 
sense.

Perhaps the wizarding world does not.




Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 31 21:41:12 2004
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 21:41:12 -0000
Subject: Ollivanders' origin (was: Ollivander a Dragon Slayer?)
In-Reply-To: <c4d6ro+36d5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4fdto+kat7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94708

I (Carol) wrote:
> <snip> As for Mr. Ollivander having been alive since 382 B.C.,
Nicholas Flamel needed the elixir of life to live to 666 (or whatever
his age was at the end of SS/PS). Also, the sign in Mr. Ollivander's
shop window says "Makers of fine wands since 382 B.C." (SS Am. ed. 82)
so there must have been more than one Ollivander. (In fact, I hope Mr.
O. has a son or daughter to keep the business going after he dies
since he seems to be the only wandmaker worth his salt in Britain.)
 
 
Neriresponded:
I wonder what country did the Ollivanders came from? Britain wasn't 
very civilized in the forth century B.C., and "Ollivander" doesn't 
sound British. Is it the same as "oleander"? To my knowledge oleander
is the Latin name for a bush with beautiful but poisonous flowers,
which is common in the Mediterranean.

Carol:
Just for the record, I live in Tucson, where oleander is a common
ornamental shrub, and I know a person who was rushed to the hospital
as a child because he fell on an oleander branch, which pierced his
skin two inches deep. I was told that the little boy could have died
had a doctor not removed the branch and treated him promptly. For that
reason, I don't think there's a connection between "oleander" and
"Ollivander." At any rate, I can't see oleander (a shrub whose wood is
poisonous) as a wand tree, and I think the Ollivander name must be
associated with wands, given their long connection with that
profession and JKR's interest in appropriate names.

I keep thinking that the name means "olive wand-er," i.e., a person
with an olive-wood wand. The olive tree, of course, is associated with
ancient Athens and was the sacred gift of Athena/Minerva (McGonagall,
anybody?), who is also associated with owls. We all know that the
olive branch symbolizes peace in the Hebrew tradition (I don't know
whether it was shared by the Greeks). The association with Athena
*could* suggest that the original Ollivander was "a Greek chappie"
(who translated his name when he arrived in England). (I don't really
think so, but I'm tossing out the thought in respose to Neri.)

Earlier posts have examined the properties of yew and holly in the
Druid tradition in relation to Harry's and Voldemort's wands. Assuming
that Ollivander really is (or might be) associated with olive wood
wands, wouldn't the properties of olive wood be relevant to an
understanding of Ollivander? Has anyone checked into this?

Carol




From pt4ever at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 31 21:48:02 2004
From: pt4ever at yahoo.com (JoAnna)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 21:48:02 -0000
Subject: Underage magic enforcement
In-Reply-To: <c4fai5+ec5t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4feai+vuck@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94709

Carol:
<<<If, as others have speculated, the underage magic is detected by
identifying the wand, then a child under eleven would be using 
someone else's wand or no wand at all, and the MoM could not 
identify the child who cast the spell. I also think (hope) that it 
would be the parents' responsibility to monitor their young 
children's behavior. Otherwise, the WW would be a police state in 
which the authorities take over the parents' role. It would be like 
having the local sheriff's deputy arresting your child if he swears 
at his grandmother in public. (I don't want to get into whether we 
really have such a police state in the RW, which tends to think the 
parents are at fault!)>>>

As I was reading your post, Carol, something else occurred to me.  
Why didn't Harry get a warning from the MoM during the Quidditch 
World Cup, when Barty Crouch Jr. used Harry's wand to conjure the 
Dark Mark?  If the MoM monitors wands, you'd think that would be the 
case.

However, one explanation is that the Ministry didn't send a warning 
considering that the Minister of Magic and tons of MoM officials 
were already present at the cup (and quickly determined that Harry 
hadn't conjured the Dark Mark, just his wand).  Or, there were so 
many wizards at the Mark, his magic wasn't detected (I believe 
Hermione or Ron used Lumos too, and neither got a warning).  Or, 
since it was a life threatening situation (Death Eaters running 
rampant), they didn't bother to send any warnings.

I guess I answered my own question, didn't I?  :D

- JoAnna




From starropal at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 31 21:51:08 2004
From: starropal at hotmail.com (Star Opal)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 15:51:08 -0600
Subject: FILK - What You'll Feel (Reprise)
Message-ID: <BAY17-F38ZuvbUCwBp90002d0bd@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94710

That Scar With Feeling by Star Opal; filked from Joss Whedon's "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer: Once More With Feeling".

What You'll Feel (Reprise)
To the tune of _What You Feel (Reprise)_

THE SCENE: Order of the Pheonix; Chapter 36, The Only One He Ever Feared
Voldemort possesses Harry and gives Dumbledore a difficult problem.

Voldemort:
What a lot of fun
Our time has been real swell
I can definetly say
This is going very well
Think it's true, what
You have been preaching
That death's not the worse
Now for the proving
Time to kill the boy

*Harry thinks about Sirius*

Love! Must go! Come, Bell!

_________________________________________________________________
Check out MSN PC Safety & Security to help ensure your PC is protected and 
safe. http://specials.msn.com/msn/security.asp




From aesob at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 31 22:22:16 2004
From: aesob at yahoo.com (Alex)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 22:22:16 -0000
Subject: Could Snape be part goblin?
In-Reply-To: <c4f7gf+ps8s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4fgao+qhrj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94711

<khilari2000> wrote:
> > [Snape's] appearance could be said to support this theory, as he is 
> > described as having a hooked nose and sallow skin...

to which <justcarol67> replied:
> I must say this is, as far as I know, an original perspective, but
> it's not one I see any evidence for. 

to which moi, Alex says:
And perhaps Umbridge is part toad, based on JKR's all too numerous "toad-like" 
descriptions of her... But realistically, I have to agree with Carol that there's no evidence to 
support a Goblin!Snape theory. 

I think it's just descriptive coincidence that Snape looks vampirish or goblinish. Come on, 
everyone...Snape is a creepy guy who teaches potions and has an office in a dungeon. His 
lifestyle dictates that he spends most of time in the dark. Take it from someone who lives 
in Seattle and works indoors during the day--sallow skin is an unfortunate side effect of 
such a lifestyle. Vampire and goblin lifestyles have similar constraints of being indoors 
during the day. Snape is human. My pale skin doesn't make me any less human.

Alex, who sincerely believes that JKR recent comments completely shot down the Vampire!
Snape theory...




From starropal at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 31 22:25:46 2004
From: starropal at hotmail.com (Star Opal)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 16:25:46 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mary Sue
Message-ID: <BAY17-F55QIqrfFz82b0002d1c8@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94712

>Please forgive my ignorance, but what exactly is a Mary Sue.I keep
>coming across this name but haven't a clue what it means.  Is it an
>American expression?
>Sylvia (English and confused)

I don't know if this has been answered already, but just incase. Also, I 
didn't want to go on list since technically its OT.

Okay, a Mary Sue is (usually) an original female character created for 
fanfiction. She is perfect and thus considered annoying. Most of the 
characters falls in love or take to her right away. Plays an instrument, is 
beautiful, animals adore her, and she can do no wrong. She also has a lesser 
known "brother" Gary Stu. Same thing only the male version.

While not all original characters are bad, having one labeled a Mary Sue is 
the ultimate worst.

S/He are present in all fandoms not just HP and is known generally well. I 
have no idea where the name started but its been around for a good decade 
and no doubt started in the Star Trek fandom like most Fanfiction terms. But 
I'm not positive on that last bit.

Some really good websites that say what the dreaded siblings are and how to 
fix or avoid them are  here:

http://www.amandaswiftgold.com/ronins/editorials/editorials.htm

http://missy.reimer.com/library/guide.html#5

http://missy.reimer.com/library/marysue.html

Hope that helps!

Star Opal
"I have great faith in fools -- self confidence my friends call it." Edgar 
Allan Poe

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page  FREE 
download! http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/




From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 31 23:05:18 2004
From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (Phyllis)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 23:05:18 -0000
Subject: FILK:  Better be Good to Me
Message-ID: <c4fire+uhfn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94713

FILK:  Better be Good to Me
to the tune of "Better be Good to Me" (written by M. Chapman, N. 
Chinn, H. Knight, and sung by the one and only Tina Turner)

Harry to Uncle Vernon:

A prisoner of your house
Tormented by your son
Loud grunting in the night
Held captive by a spell
Oh yes I'm touched by this goal of protection
Should I be fractured by your complete rejection
Should I, should I?

You better be good to me
That's how it's gotta be now
Cause you need me to save
Petunia from the Dark Lord's raid
You better be good to me

Harry to Snape:

I don't think it's too late
For us to stop the hate
We stand wand to wand
As you break my mind's bond
And I know you keep saying that you're on our side
And I really do wanna believe
But did you think I'd just accept this without proof
Oh no Sev, some spots never come off

You better be good to me
That's how it's gotta be now
Cause you need me to score
For the Mark to burn no more
You better be good to me

Harry to Dumbledore:

And I really don't see why it's so hard to be straight with me
And I really don't understand what's your plan that you can't be 
straight with me
What I don't know I surely can't avoid, why can't you be straight 
with me
And if it's my own fate I wish to see, why can't you be straight with 
me

~Phyllis
who heard this song twice in the last week and concluded it was her 
destiny to filk it




From aesob at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 31 23:36:56 2004
From: aesob at yahoo.com (Alex)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 23:36:56 -0000
Subject: Underage magic enforcement
In-Reply-To: <c4feai+vuck@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4fkmo+l8k5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94714

> Carol:
> <<<If, as others have speculated, the underage magic is detected by
> identifying the wand, then a child under eleven would be using 
> someone else's wand or no wand at all, and the MoM could not 
> identify the child who cast the spell. I also think (hope) that it 
> would be the parents' responsibility to monitor their young 
> children's behavior...

JoAnna:
> Why didn't Harry get a warning from the MoM during the Quidditch 
> World Cup, when Barty Crouch Jr. used Harry's wand to conjure the 
> Dark Mark?  If the MoM monitors wands, you'd think that would be the 
> case.
> 
> However, one explanation is that the Ministry didn't send a warning 
> considering that the Minister of Magic and tons of MoM officials 
> were already present at the cup (and quickly determined that Harry 
> hadn't conjured the Dark Mark, just his wand).  Or, there were so 
> many wizards at the Mark, his magic wasn't detected (I believe 
> Hermione or Ron used Lumos too, and neither got a warning).  Or, 
> since it was a life threatening situation (Death Eaters running 
> rampant), they didn't bother to send any warnings.

Alex:
Indeed...Harry is the only one for whom we've ever SEEN the Restriction for Underage 
Sorcery (RUS) being enforced. I think it's unlikely we'll see or hear about it being applied to 
anyone else, either. We learn in OP that it's illegal to use magic in the presence of muggles 
except in life-threatening circumstances...At the World Cup, muggles were present and 
when they were being tortured, their lives were at risk, so did that make it ok to perform 
magic? But earlier we see a child enlarging a slug with a wand...were muggles not present 
and that made it ok?...or was it that the child was using his parent's wand?...and so the 
RUS wasn't invoked?

A long while back I supposed that RUS was a poorly thought out plot element of Rowling's 
to get Harry in trouble at the beginning of book two. Remember that Harry's actions 
against Aunt Marge in POA should have gotten him in trouble but didn't...his actions are 
instead waived off by Fudge at Diagon Alley as he's concerned for Harry's safety in light of 
Sirius' Azkaban escape. But it still doesn't explain why he didn't get a letter...

But as Rowling has continued to use RUS (in OP, but again only to get Harry in trouble and 
bring him to the MOM) I suppose it's better thought out than I originally thought, but I still 
think it's something JKR created mainly to move Harry from one conflict to another...

Alex




From technomad at intergate.com  Wed Mar 31 20:30:11 2004
From: technomad at intergate.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 14:30:11 -0600
Subject: Bellatrix and the Crucio
Message-ID: <000401c4177a$ebb3e1e0$b1570043@intergate.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94716

It occurs to me that one reason Harry might not have been punished for
trying to Crucio Bellatrix Lestrange is that she is, as an escaped Azkaban
prisoner and known, avowed DE, an outlaw.  The Wizard World is
old-fashioned, almost medieval in some ways, and may well have kept outlawry
around after it disappeared in the Muggle world.  It was not what most
people seeing the word and thinking of its incorrect use in modern times
think it was.  In its correct context, it is not just a synonym for a
criminal.

To clarify---a _real_ outlaw is literally _outside the law,_ and not
entitled to any protection at all.  It is a crime to conceal an outlaw, feed
one, or help an outlaw in any way.  Anybody catching an outlaw can do
anything they want---usually meaning killing, but I doubt that medieval law
would have minded a nice, cozy torture session as a preliminary to the
slaughter.  If we practiced outlawry now, and I saw an outlaw on the street,
I could literally kill him on the spot and face no charges whatsoever---once
it was established that the person I had killed was an outlaw, I'd walk scot
free.

Outlawry was inflicted as a punishment in Viking and other Old Germanic law
codes, and had parallels (not quite the same) in Roman and Greek law.  In
Viking and medieval Scandinavia, one could be outlawed for a period of time
or for life.  In practice, this generally meant that the outlaw would go
into exile, to a place where the law-code of the people who had outlawed him
did not reach.  (This was why Eirikr the Red went off and discovered
Greenland---he'd been outlawed in Iceland for a few years on account of a
few killings.)

Now, we have seen that Barty Crouch, Sr. authorized the use of the
otherwise-forbidden-for-use-on-humans Unforgivable Curses on Death Eaters.
Was that law, or rule, ever repealed?  I could make a case that known DEs,
or at least known Azkaban escapees, are outlaws subject to "shoot-on-sight"
rules, and that this covers Harry for trying to Crucio Bellatrix.

Come to it---if known DEs are outlaws, that would have to make Voldemort
one---which would make killing him no murder at all.  That would be a bit of
a load off Harry's mind---if he wasn't basically so Nice.

--Eric, who thinks that with his anger issues, he could have Crucio'd
Bellatrix to a crispy critter with no problem whatsoever.




From hannah at readysolve.com  Wed Mar 31 16:46:05 2004
From: hannah at readysolve.com (khilari2000)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 16:46:05 -0000
Subject: Could Snape be part goblin?
In-Reply-To: <c4eblt+8dhc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4eskd+e9n9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94719


> 
> Interesting theory, Khilari :-) The only objection I've got is that 
> we already know of someone who is sent by Dumbledore to "liaison" 
> with the goblins: Bill Weasley. Of course Snape could be on the job 
> too, but why would it be a secret that he's on the case, and not a 
> secret that Bill is working on it? after all; the children are 
> allowed to listen in on Bill's reports from his dealings with the 
> goblins. But no mention of Snape.
> 
> Berit
> http://home.no.net/berjakob/snape.html

Bother, I'd forgotten that. Thanks for pointing it out. Could there 
be more than one group/type of goblin? The goblins at gringotts work 
quite closely with wizards, which doesn't quite fit with the history 
of bloody revolutions. I admit I'm on thin ice here though.

Khilari





From hannah at readysolve.com  Wed Mar 31 17:17:36 2004
From: hannah at readysolve.com (khilari2000)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 17:17:36 -0000
Subject: Why DD might not want Snape for DADA job
In-Reply-To: <c4e3f5+dm7k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4eufg+crln@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94721

Sigune:
> I seem to remember that someone asked JKR what shape Snape's 
> boggart would take, and that she said answering that question 
> would be giving away too much; but what interests me even more 
> is how Snape would advise students to tackle a boggart, and, 
> possibly even more, how he would fight his own. You obviously 
> need some sense of humour to perform the Riddikulus spell. And 
> I would just /love/ to see Snape making suggestions to his DADA 
> students, forcing his own, no doubt twisted, sense of fun on 
> them :).
 

But would it work for students who have to make the boggart look 
ridiculus to *them*? I agree it would be funny though. As a related 
thought, does LV have a sense of humour? I would love to know what 
his boggart looks like and whether he can fight it.

Khilari





From offworld_xanatos at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 31 19:36:33 2004
From: offworld_xanatos at yahoo.com (xani)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 19:36:33 -0000
Subject: Drill Sargent Snape
In-Reply-To: <c4eqj6+sqic@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4f6k1+kci3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94722

I like the 'drill sergeant' view of Snape.  Although, I don't think 
it's really an intentional thing for him.

Think about who he singles out the most: Harry and Neville

Snape is the hardest on them, but look at it from Snape's point of 
view: Snape knows that, according to the prophecy, the very future 
of the Wizarding World is going to depend on one of these two boys.

Harry, he has little faith in because of his father, and Neville... 
well.. poor Neville, he really never had a chance did he?

So, Snape, who is not a very nice teacher to begin with, really 
comes down hard on these two boys.  Again, I don't think it was a 
conscious decision, just the realization that the 'saviors' of the 
WW are not the most skilled.  I don't think Snape is taking into 
consideration (as he should) that the boys are only 11, 12 years 
old.  

I do think Snape is trying to get these boys prepared, whether they 
like it or not.  And I do think they are learning.  Both boys seemed 
to do well on their OWLs.  AND - I don't think Neville would not 
have done so well in his OWLs if Snape hadn't been so hard on him 
all these years.  The OWL exam was easy by comparison, and Neville 
handled the pressure well.  

No, I don't approve of Snape's teaching method, esp for such young 
kids. But I do think the kids are getting valuable lessons from it, 
even if it isn't the most pleasant way to learn.

~xani (who would much rather have Lupin teaching anyday!)





From rorogersmc at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 31 20:54:30 2004
From: rorogersmc at yahoo.com (rorogersmc)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 20:54:30 -0000
Subject: Why DD might not want Snape for DADA job
In-Reply-To: <c4cqqu+n3h7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <c4fb66+oij3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94723

Athena Artemis wrote(snipped):
> "JKR: <sighs> That is an excellent question and the reason is 
that, I  have to be careful what I say here, the reason is that to 
answer it fully would give and awful lot away about the remaining 
two books but when Professor Dumbledore took Professor 
Snape on to the staff and Professor Snape said I'd like to teach 
defence against the darks arts please and Professor 
Dumbledore felt that that might bring out the  worst in Professor 
Snape"

 "<laughs> Somewhat"
 
 "JKR: So he said I think we'll let you teach potions and see how 
you  get along there"

 JKR's response confirmed exactly my supposition with regard to 
why DD has not assigned Snape as DADA professor!(So nice to 
be "right"!lol:)
>


Rachael:  First, I want to say that everyone has made great 
points in their responses to this topic.  I snipped Athena Artemis 
because this response from JKR might contradict what I'm going 
to say.  Although what JKR means and knows, and what we think 
she means and think we know, aren't always the same, so, 
maybe it doesn't contradict my idea.

Anyway, suppose that Dumbledore could live with Snape 
teaching DADA for a while (maybe a year or two) until someone 
else who is good applied for the position.  I mean, he could have 
picked Snape for OOTP and let a teacher be appointed for 
Potions.  (I personally think that even a nasty Snape would have 
been better than Umbrige.)  And, Snape seems to apply for 
DADA every year, so I bet he would have taken the job if 
Dumbledore had offered.  

The question this raises for me is: *Is there something about 
Potions that makes it more important for this class to have a 
competant teacher, than DADA?*   While the students have 
learned some important things in DADA, most of what Harry 
uses is stuff that he has learned on his own somehow.  OTOH, 
except for the Polyjuice Potion, when have the Trio spent time 
learning potions on their own?  Is there something that they 
*need* to learn from Snape in Potions?  

Maybe, maybe not, but it's interesting to wonder why Dumbledore 
would prefer to have DADA teachers be iffy, as aposed to Potions 
teachers.

Rachael, who hopes this post makes sense, because it barely 
makes sense to her.





From cerebella316 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 31 21:59:15 2004
From: cerebella316 at yahoo.com (cerebella316)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 21:59:15 -0000
Subject: JKR's "small thing" in CoS
In-Reply-To: <Sea2-F11ghozGdyLSTV0003467d@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <c4fevj+aml3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 94726

Kathy posted this snippet from Steve Kloves interview:

February 2003

Interview with Steve Kloves and J.K. Rowling, Moderated by Lizo 
Mzimba

Steve: I will sometimes ask Jo. I will say, you know, this detail, 
you just seem to have cast just a bit more light on this in this 
scene than the other details. Sometimes I'm wrong, but often she'll 
say "No, that is going to play." There's one thing in Chamber, 
actually, that Jo indicated will play later in the series...."


Cerebella ponders his wording and the context of "There's one thing 
in Chamber..." and decided to comment:

OK guys....for some reason I think that this "one thing" Kloves is 
talking about here is how, in the movie script, he took the liberty 
to add that awkward hug between Ron and Hermione.

Doesn't happen in the book. I assume it was added as a stretch to 
make the Trio seem more like normal preteens who are beginning to 
see the gray area between friendship and attraction to the opposite 
sex.

That was a thing in COS that Kloves added in and JK okayed because 
the tension between Hermione and Ron is going to "play later in the 
series."

That's just what I think he was alluding too!

~Cerebella, who *does* think something important happens in COS 
that, in a way, foreshadows the end of the series, but does not 
think that that is what Kloves is talking about here! 

(And, who also thinks that the *clues* JK is talking about in COS 
are probably so straightfoward, so *right there*, that we're all 
going to slap our foreheads when JK reveals them when the last book 
is released!)






From bumbledor at charter.net  Wed Mar 31 22:53:17 2004
From: bumbledor at charter.net (Bumbledor)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 17:53:17 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Underage magic enforcement
References: <c4feai+vuck@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000701c41772$f58d5f50$6501a8c0@mac>

No: HPFGUIDX 94731


> Carol:
> <<<If, as others have speculated, the underage magic is detected by
> identifying the wand, then a child under eleven would be using
> someone else's wand or no wand at all, and the MoM could not
> identify the child who cast the spell.

JoAnna:
> As I was reading your post, Carol, something else occurred to me.
> Why didn't Harry get a warning from the MoM during the Quidditch
> World Cup, when Barty Crouch Jr. used Harry's wand to conjure the
> Dark Mark?  If the MoM monitors wands, you'd think that would be the
> case.
>
> However, one explanation is that the Ministry didn't send a warning
> considering that the Minister of Magic and tons of MoM officials
> were already present at the cup (and quickly determined that Harry
> hadn't conjured the Dark Mark, just his wand).  Or, there were so
> many wizards at the Mark, his magic wasn't detected (I believe
> Hermione or Ron used Lumos too, and neither got a warning).  Or,
> since it was a life threatening situation (Death Eaters running
> rampant), they didn't bother to send any warnings.

Joana  and all:
 I think I finally found the answer to this question of  strange even lopp
sided underage magic enforcement.
I was listenening to one the Jim Dale Audio Books when it hit me  The
M.O.M.'s job is to make sure the muggles don't find out about witches and
wizards existing.

 Now Harry is clearly the only wizard child in his area. He lives with
muggles, just as Tom Riddle did. I am sure the M.O.M. kept an equal eye on
Tom who was living in a muggle orphanage. Anyone wonder how the MOM got the
orphanage to allow Tom to go to a wizards school? I am sure some kind of
mind jinks was used on them.  Now, I am sure that in places like the Burrow,
which is clearly hidden from most muggles, the MOM does not keep as close an
eye on the children, as they would with someone like Harry or Tom. Why would
they have to? Aren't wizard adults fully aware of what could happen if their
children expose the wizard world to muggles? And the adults would be held
accountable.

But who would be held accountable in Harrys case? Look at what hes done so
far. The Muggles are directly responsible for pushing Harry past his limit,
and have caused him to loose his temper at least twice - once to Marge by
blowing her up, and the second time during the beginning of book 5 when
Harry was laying outside the window, listening to the news. Vernons hands
had grabbed Harry around his neck, and he let go when Harry had a sudden
surge of power, that appeard to have electrocuted Vernon.  Both times, the
muggels were responsible for it.  The only time they directly held Harry
responsible was when he knowingly and intentionaly used his WAND to do magic
within the "muggle zone" so to say.

And that is why I think that the Restriction on underaged magic, has more to
do with the "muggle zone" than just doing magic in front of your wizarding
parents in their "Wizard zone".

Ok Moderators, chew me out for not being politicaly correct, reformating,
signing my name, etc..






From gretchen.bakies at prodigy.net  Thu Mar  4 22:19:45 2004
From: gretchen.bakies at prodigy.net (gretchen.bakies)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 14:19:45 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Naming Puns (was Re: The Grim?)
References: <c2rq3l+mqp7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000601c40804$37224260$a5082443@y8t1q8>

No: HPFGUIDX 95118

> Geoff:
> It has been suggested in the past that this is another of JKR's puns
> on names along the lines of Diagon Alley and Knockturn Alley.
> Grimmauld= grim old. Auld is a Scots dialect word for old. Edinburgh
> has the nickname of "Auld Reekie" and JKR has Edinburgh connections.


Okay, I know I caught the pun in Grimmauld place and some of the other puns
in names, but I'll admit that some puns have gone over my head. My best
guess on Diagon Alley would be diagonally, but I don't know how that fits the
story.  For Knockturn Alley I'm coming up with nocturnally - I guess under
darkness or furitively would describe this pun, but I'm not 100% sure.  Can
someone enlighten me and let me know if I've missed any others?


Gretchen