Cedric and Pettigrew

[pippin_999]

No: HPFGUIDX 91932


> Pippin countered:
> >No. We know there was *a* spy for Voldemort well before 
Peter
> >became the Secret Keeper. Sirius  accuses Peter of passing
> >information to Voldemort for a year before, but this is never
> >confirmed.

Ffred: 
> Perhaps not the length, but I can't remember any points at 
>which Spy!Peter is refuted in the books, even in the Shack 
>where Peter is pleading for his life.

Pippin continues:
I'm not denying that Peter became Voldemort's agent. The Dark 
Mark is proof enough of that. But when is important if you are 
trying to establish that there are two traitors <g>. JKR has a way 
of making history repeat itself. I hate to keep harking back to poor 
old Podmore, but  if he was betrayed it happened before 
Kreacher was ordered to leave the house. Likewise, I think 
Peter's behavior supports the idea that there was spy in the 
Order before Pettigrew became one. 

Pippin previously:
> >I put forward an alternate scenario: James, who doesn't want 
tobelieve that any of his friends are spies, tells ESE!Lupin about
he secret-keeper switch. Lupin runs along to Voldemort, who
captures Peter and bullies him into giving up the secret.<

Ffred countered:
>>How do you see things developing _after_ Voldemort's 
debacle? If Peter is still captive (or under Imperio) at this point, 
he's now free from the spell (and clearly he's released from 
captivity). Why not tell the truth? Others (ever Lucius) who said 
they were under Imperio were believed. If Voldemort
takes Peter with him, then Peter could have rescued Harry, and 
once again told the truth. If Peter _wasn't_ the spy, why should 
he run for his life, even if Lupin was also Voldemort's man? He 
could have cleared up his own part in the affair quite easily.<<

Pippin:
Peter could have tried  pleading that he was under the imperius 
curse in any case. But he didn't.  I have a feeling this is because 
the Secret-Keeper cannot be compelled to give up the secret by 
magic.  The information is concealed within the secret-keeper's 
soul, according to Flitwick.  I think it's  safe there from Imperius, 
veritaserum, legilimency, etc., unless the Secret Keeper 
chooses to reveal it.  Peter  tells Sirius that he only betrayed the 
Potters because he was threatened with death,  and he sticks to 
this.  He never confesses that he was the one who told 
Voldemort that he was secret-keeper in the first place. And I don't 
believe he was. 

Sirius thinks Peter should've acted in the romantic tradition of 
The Highwayman's girlfriend, and warned the Potters with his 
death. For that reason alone, Sirius would've killed Peter on the 
spot if Harry hadn't stopped him.   There's no reason to think 
he'd've felt differently twelve years before.

But Sirius believes that there was a time *before*  the Potters 
died when Peter could have escaped Voldemort's vigilance.  
That's where it's material how long Peter was under Voldemort's 
thumb. The Secret-keeper spell was in effect only a week before 
Voldemort killed the Potters. I can easily believe that Peter was 
under close surveillance for that amount of time.

After the debacle, Peter would have no way to prove that anyone 
was a DE. The Dark Mark would have vanished from his arm, 
and from the other DE's as well. 

Peter's still the one who betrayed James and LIly and he's an 
illegal Animagus. That's more than enough to put him in 
Azkaban, even if Sirius doesn't kill him.  And if by chance he 
doesn't go to Azkaban, it will look even more as if he set 
Voldemort up, and the DE's still at large will be after him for 
revenge.

> Pippin again:
> >But Snape was already Dumbledore's agent at that point. "He
> >rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort's downfall and 
turned
> >spy for us at great personal risk. " There would have been no
> >chance for Snape to return to LV as a spy if he came over the
> >night of the Potters' demise.

Ffred:
> >True. It depends on whether DD is being entirely truthful here 
or presenting the best possible case for Snape.
> 
><<snnnipp>>. The bit about "turned spy" may be a little bit of 
spin.<<

Pippin counters:
Per OOP it takes lengthy preparation to set up the Secret Keeper 
spell, so Dumbledore must have known that James and LIly 
were in danger quite a while before Voldemort launched his 
attack on them. I suppose that Dumbledore might have built up 
Snape as the spy in order to protect another spy...LOL! maybe it's  
been Karkaroff all along ;-)

But whoever Dumbledore's spy really is, his Dark Mark would 
have vanished when Voldemort was undone. That event  plus 
his knowledge of the prophecy  might have  been enough to 
cause Dumbledore to send Hagrid to Godric's Hollow 
immediately, with orders to fetch Harry if he found him alive.  
There'd be no need to fear that Hagrid would encounter 
Voldemort, and he could deal with any lesser foes.

Ffred:
> But I'd have to agree that Lupin's stock is rising as the other 
traitor in the Order. If it was Sirius, then I don't think JKR would 
have killed him off before he had the chance to do some dirty 
deeds...<<

Pippin:
Agreed.  It's the progression of dirty deeds that makes me want  
the  Muggle killing to be the unplanned result of a missed AK. 
Then ESE!Lupin commits  a series of murderous deeds whose 
intent grows ever darker: The Prank, the attempted murder of the 
guilty Pettigrew (and the unintended slaying of innocent 
Muggles),  the slaughter of the unicorns, the death of the  armed 
and wary Cedric, and finally Sirius, who was murdered "under 
trust" as the Scots say. 

Pippin