[HPforGrownups] Re: Time Travel and Chuck Berry

[danielle dassero]

No: HPFGUIDX 91945

Look at it this way, sometimes things are meant to be,
meaning that in order for harry to grow up and defeat
moldiemort, he had to grow up as an orphan. However
not all things are meant to be, so time travel can
happen as a way to change something. That's why death
is final, death is something that is meant to be. JKR
doesn't do time travel to suit her, she uses only to
change something that was meant to be. Sirious wasn't
meant to die in Azkaban, he was meant to die fighting
like in OOP, maybe it really was his time in OOP maybe
it wasn't, but it was how Sirious wanted to die.
Danielle 
--- nkafkafi <nkafkafi at yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Robert Jones" wrote:
> Troels Forchhammer in post 91756 responded to how my
> question of how
> time-traveling Harry could produce a Patronus:
> >
> > Harry had seen himself do it - once he realised
> that the person
> > he saw by the lake was himself, he also knew with
> absolute
> certainty
> > that he had indeed seen himself cast the Patronus
> Charm.
> >
> Bobby:
> I still do not understand. At first, both old Harry
> (Harry1) and
> time-traveling Harry (Harry2) do not have the
> confidence to produce
> a Patronus. He (Harry1) does not realize that he
> (Harry2) produced
> it. At first time-traveling Harry (Harry2) does not
> have confidence
> either, but he has time to realize that he (Harry1)
> saw him (Harry2)
> produce a Patronus, and so he (Harry2) now has the
> confidence to do
> it. But this is like the Chuck Berry paradox from
> the movie "Back
> to the Future" where the Michael J. Fox character
> learns Chuck
> Berry's guitar licks off Chuck's records but then
> teaches Chuck
> those same licks over the telephone  so Fox learns
> the licks from
> Berry who learns them from Fox, and so on, and so
> on. In effect the
> earlier Chuck Berry learns his licks from the future
> Chuck Berry.
> So there is no point in this loop for Chuck to
> actually create the
> licks. And the same problem applies to Harry: Harry2
> can make a
> Patronus because Harry1 saw him already do it
> because Harry2 did it
> because Harry1 saw . . . At no point in the loop can
> Harry2 gain
> the confidence to produce the Patronus.
> 
> Neri:
> Yes, you got everything exactly right. I couldn't
> have explained it 
> better. Now all is left for you to do is realize
> that if every step 
> is consistent, then the whole loop, however weird,
> must be correct 
> also. This is how mathematical proofs and magic
> work.
> 
> This is very much like the Mobius strip (if you are
> not familiar with 
> this old trick, go to
> http://scidiv.bcc.ctc.edu/Math/Mobius.html). 
> You know it has only one side, although it sounds
> weird and you can 
> just *see* that it has two sides, but you'll find
> you can draw a line 
> from any point on one side to any point on the
> "other" side, without 
> taking the pen off the paper or going over anedge.
> So there must be 
> only one side, however strange it seems.
> 
> "Robert Jones" wrote:
> 
> Second, Troels Forchhammer responded to me saying
> that JKR permits
> time-travelers to change history:
> 
> > I prefer to believe Hermione's information wrong
> rather than accept
> > an internal inconsistency (allowing changes to the
> past would
> create plot-holes large enough to pass not only
> Hannibal and his
> elephants through, but the Alps as well). That is
> merely a matter of
> personal
> > priority.
> 
> Bobby: But my point is that JKR accepts that
> time-travelers can
> change history and so if she uses it again she can
> do whatever she
> wants to the plot (and that makes it a crumby plot
> device).
> 
> Neri:
> She still has to be consistent, or we will all throw
> the book in 
> disgust. It is actually possible to change history
> and remain 
> consistent (that is, no paradoxes or plot holes) but
> it is very, very 
> difficult. Time-travel is not a trick that enables
> the author to do 
> everything with the plot. It actually makes plotting
> much harder than 
> usual. See #88636 and #88794 for my detailed
> discussion and some 
> weird-but-consistent examples.
> 
> Neri
> 
> 
> 


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