[HPforGrownups] Harry and Detention with Dolores

[Shaun Hately]

No: HPFGUIDX 91952

On 2 Mar 2004 at 20:57, Steve wrote:

> I have been reading with interest people's comment on whether Harry
> was right or wrong in enduring Umbridge's detentions, and whether it
> was believable behavior for a boy in that circumstances.
> 
> I think we need to remember that kids live in their own private world
> that is run by their own private set of rules; the rules of the
> playground, the Code of Youth. 
> 
> As an illustration of Harry's behavior, let me reference two examples
> for real life; Catholic School and English/European Broarding Schools.
> 
> Anyone who has been to Catholic school know that physical punishment
> is quite common, and in a sense, the daily routine become like a
> little war between the Nuns and the boys. The boys will go to any
> length, including risk of life and limb, to get one over on the Nuns,
> and the Nun dispense ever more cruel and ever more frequent
> punishments with each infraction.

Steve makes some good points here - before I continue though, let 
me point out that the above is a serious stereotype - many Catholic 
schools historically have been like this. Many however are not, and 
haven't been for a long time.

Now, personally, I attended schools *something* like the stereotype 
Steve is using here. Corporal punishment was used - fairly often. I 
experienced it, including some quite severe punishments at time, so 
I'm writing this from that perspective. It is a relevant one.

> According to the Code of the Playground, any boy who does not want to
> spend the rest of his school years, and potentially the rest of his
> life, being ridiculed makes a super-human effort to not flinch or in
> anyway show pain even under the most severe punishment from the Nuns.
> Sadly, many schoolboys are like predators, show the slightest sign of
> weakness and they won't hesitate to attack.

Yes, this is a concern.

Look, I personally, am in favour of controlled corporal punishment 
in schools. My personal experience of it was very positive overall. 
And I know through discussions that most of the people I went to 
school with agree with that position.

Back in around 1970, an American named (IIRC) Paul Mercurio did a 
study of the use of corporal punishment in a New Zealand boys 
school - he found that the use of the cane was both accepted by the 
boys as normal, and expected by the boys. The attitude at my 
school, and hundreds of others around the world until very recently 
was pretty much the same.

Boys - millions of them - simply accepted the use of physical pain 
as a form of punishment.
 
> Plus, there is a matter of pride involved, in the war between the boys
> and the Nuns, the boys swear in internal solumn oath that they will
> never give the Nuns the satisfaction of knowing that their punishment
> got to them. Very much the way Harry refused if give Umbridge the
> satisfaction of knowing her punishents were effecting him.

Definitely.

Nearly all the punishments I received at school were deserved - and 
in those situations, I actually did show signs of pain. The one 
time I was caned for something I felt was totally unfair and 
unjust, I did everything I could to accept it unflinchingly because 
I wasn't going to give the person administering it any 
satisfaction.

> In days gone by, based on movies I've seen, the English/European Boy's
>  Boarding Schools were much the same way. In order to maintain
> discipline in the school, the Prefects were given the power to punish
> students. Being the sadistic power-hungry little demons that they are,
> the punishment grew beyond that authorized by the school, and became a
> sadistic ritual played out amoung the boys. A ritual involving ever
> greater number and with substantially greater force, swats on the bum
> with a cane; not a regular cane but a whipping cane usually bamboo or
> willow. 

Yes, and this was true until *very* recently. In a few schools, 
prefects had the right to use canes (which, just as a matter of 
historical reference, were nearly always made of rattan rather than 
bambook or willow) as late as the 1970s - there may even be a few 
where they had it after that, but I know it was used that late.

In most cases, it wasn't sadistic - movies tend to exagerate that, 
it happened, but it was rare. Generally it was just a normal part 
of life.
 
> Again, the Code of the Playground, or in this case, the Code of Boy's
> Boarding Schools said that you did not give the punisher the
> satisfction of knowing they had the power to hurt you, so you used
> ever fiber of will-power you had, and never let them see you flinch or
> hear you cry out even under the most brutal assault.

In my experience, that depended - it was OK to show pain if you 
deserved the punishment, provided you didn't show too much. If you 
didn't deserve it, you didn't want to show it.

And that is the situation Harry is in.

> Maybe you have to be a boy to understand these things, but what Harry
> did is what any self-respecting school boy would have done; at least
> what any boy would have done up until the not to distant past. Today,
> a boy is more likely to go hire a lawyer and sue the school for a
> small fortune.

It might be useful for people to bear in mind that Order of the 
Phoenix takes place in 1995/1996.

At that time in Britain, it was still legal in private schools for 
students to be caned. I believe the ban came into effect in 1999 - 
I know that in 1998, a survey found that corporal punishment was 
still in use in over 200 British independent schools (at most of 
those, it probably wasn't used very often - but it was still 
officially an option). 

Wizard law is different from Muggle Law - but honestly, I don't 
think Umbridge was breaking British Law at the time by using that 
quill.

[Note - for my University course, I am doing a research project on 
Historical Educational Controversies - and corporal punishment is 
my issue, so I have been researching it. I could reference these 
facts if I had my notes on me].

There's also a factor, I hesitate to mention because it's kind of 
personal - I'm not shy about it, but one of the reasons I loved 
Harry Potter when I first read it, was because I *really* related 
to his feelings with regards to Hogwarts, so I project myself onto 
Harry (also onto Hermione for other reasons).

The following is of *POSSIBLE* relevance because of that projection 
issue.

I had to endure a year of complete and total hell at school when I 
was 12. I was basically abused by my fellow students on a daily 
basis. Eventually psychologists got involved, and made 
recommendations, and I wound up the following year at a very 
different school.

I LOVED it there. For me, it was home. I could really relate to the 
way Harry seems to feel about Hogwarts for that reason. It was a 
marvellous place. I adored it, I worshipped it. [And yes, it had 
corporal punishment.] I developed a fierce loyalty to the school 
because of those feelings I developed about it.

Now - it wasn't a perfect place. Things went wrong occasionally, 
mistakes were made (one of which I alluded to above when I was 
unfairly punished for something), I had teachers like Snape as well 
- never *quite* had an Umbridge.

The thing is though - when those things went wrong... I pretty much 
just accepted them. Why? Because I *trusted* the school. I 
*trusted* the fact that things would sort themselves out over time. 
I *accepted* the occasional failings, partly because I didn't 
expect perfection, partly because I felt the school had earned some 
leniency from me. But also because I knew how bad the alternatives 
could be.

I really wonder if something similar is tied up with Harry and 
Umbridge's quill.

Harry has had four years at Hogwarts - and I think he really likes 
the place. I really wonder if part of the reason he's willing to 
accept Umbridge's abuse is because - well, bad as it is, is it 
worse than winding up living with the Dursleys?

He *knows* how bad things can be. Hogwarts, even under Umbridge, 
may still seem very attractive.


Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia