[HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Harry and Hermione

[Laura Ingalls Huntley]

No: HPFGUIDX 92307

> Hitomi:
> Hey guys, long time no post.  Anyway, thanks Susan, for bringing
> this up (even though we're talking about ships, AGAIN!).  I've never
> understood how we are supposed to take all the instances in the
> books between Hermione and Harry as "clues."  (I know all the
> defenses of this ship, and I've heard how the situations between
> Harry and Hermione have been construed to look as if they might like
> one another, or at least Hermione does, because we know Harry has NO
> interest, but those situations look most blatantly as if the two are
> very close friends.)

Well, technically, Harry has showed ZERO amount of interest in Ginny 
Weasley (or anyone else except Cho) as well, despite the fact that he 
is well aware that she likes (liked?) him and Ron's obvious support of 
a H/G relationship.

Ultimately, if you want to SHIP Harry with *any* of the main female 
characters we have so far, you pretty much are going to have to accept 
the rather cheesy scenario of him recognizing What Was In Front of Him 
All Along.  That said, I do think JKR has the ability to make such a 
scenario seem much more natural and less out-of-the-blue than it sounds 
(as, really, it's not all that uncommon, even in real life).

> I never once thought while reading they would
> end up together.  In Book 1, unlike a lot of the posters on this
> list apparently, I never thought because Hermione is the "heroine"
> that she should be with the "hero."  At that point, they were
> eleven, and I would have been just as happy to see her with Ron as
> Harry.

Just because you never thought of it doesn't mean that it isn't a valid 
conclusion. ^_~  SHIPping preferences are just that.  PREFERENCES (i.e. 
a matter of feelings and opinions, all of which are v. subjective).

I'm not really sure when I formed my SHIPping preferences (H/H, if you 
hadn't guessed ^_~), but I know it was sometime in between starting PoA 
and finishing GoF.  And it wasn't because I thought the heroine should 
be with the hero (in fact, I have never heard a H/H or any other poster 
cite this as a reason that the H/H ship will happen).

So why *do* I support H/H?  It's hard to articulate, really.  I suppose 
one could easily argue that I identify with Hermione, am attracted 
to/deeply admire/love many of Harry's qualities and identify with most 
of the rest, and prefer the type of relationship I envision H/H having 
(as opposed to the bickering-leads-to-passion type of relationship 
R/Hers propose).  On the other hand, *normally* I SHIP the female leads 
in the stories I read with the bad-boy types (ah, yes, I'm such a 
sucker for that), so perhaps my H/H preference is not entirely some 
kind of default for me.

All I know is that sometime during GoF I realized that Harry and 
Hermione could really have a beautiful relationship together, and that 
I'd felt that this was so for quite some time.


> And then, after reading Books 2-4, it was settled, Hermione and Ron
> was the ship I took for granted, and I thought every HP fan must see
> it.  Obviously, I found I was wrong upon joining the fandom, but I
> never put Hermione with Ron because I wanted to, unlike a lot of H/H
> shippers.  They just sort of... were.

I hate to preach . . . *snickers* Okay, I love preach, but taking for 
granted that everyone else *must* think and experience things the same 
way you do is almost always an erroneous assumption.  It leads to bad 
things . . . like intolerance and stepping on people's toes.  Honestly, 
I found your entire post quite aggressive and intolerant towards 
H/Hers, rather than just the H/H SHIP (which would have been less 
offensive).  Now, I'm not trying to say that you're a bad person, 
because I'm sure anyone willing to wrassle with Yahoomort could dig up 
a half-dozen posts in which I made rather uncharitable generalizations 
about R/Hers, but uh . . . maybe it would be better if we *all* could 
learn to be a bit more mature and respectful towards one another.

I know it seems (to you) like the R/H ship is inevitable/right/etc., 
but you had better believe that the H/H SHIP feels the same way to 
H/Hers.

> And I know a lot of people
> want to think JKR is pulling our leg, because she does do that at
> times, but not to this extent.  Mostly, she is honest.  And she has,
> REPEATEDLY, said that there is more going on between Ron and
> Hermione, than Harry and Hermione, that H/H is very "platonic."
> That pretty much settles it for me, but some still argue.  In this
> latest interview, she says something along the lines of "haven't I
> given enough clues already?"  and then answeres the Krum question
> with "Ron would like to know that, too."  Ron, not Harry.  All, the
> clues, unless construed to fit a point, as I said, look as if Harry
> and Hermione are just friends.  Why would she put so much effort
> into showing Ron's jealousy, Hermione's exasperation, if she wasn't
> going to do anything with it?  Same with Ginny's having a crush.
> That's why I sometimes ship H/G, because what was the point of
> having her like him, if JKR doesn't eventually do something with
> it?

The pessimist in me thinks you're probably right (which isn't *exactly* 
saying anything, as I always assume the worst in situations such as 
this).  On one hand, she *is* a v. sneaky person.  On the other hand, I 
have this sinking feeling (based mostly on the information you've cited 
above and on traditional plot trajectories, a la Star Wars), that 
Hermione will end up with Ron, and Harry will end up with Ginny.

So why am I fighting it?  First, because, as I said above, I really 
can't trust my own sense of dread when it comes to this kind of thing.  
I *always* feel like it's all going to turn out badly just because I 
want it to end differently.  Secondly, because I can't *stand* R/H and 
H/G.

Ron and Hermione?  I understand totally that some people think fighting 
(or verbal sparring -- take your pick of terminology) is a sign of 
passion between two people, and on some levels I think they're right.  
Passion *can* come about that way.  But it's not the *only* way, and, 
personally, I think it's a *bad* way.  In my experience/observations, 
the passion generally dies away as the relationship ages (of course, no 
type of relationship remains in the "honeymoon" stage forever), and 
then what's left?  Two people who's main way of interacting is taking 
jabs at one another.  I've seen a lot of people in these relationships, 
for example my parents and my cousin and her boyfriend.  In my opinion, 
my parents are the best-case scenario.  They *do* still love each other 
very much, they always apologize when they end up actually hurting each 
other, etc.  But at the same time, it's easy to see that it tires and 
upsets them on a daily basis, they have trouble communicating, my 
mother ends up treating my father like a child, my father has just 
learned to ignore my mother -- also, lemme tell you, it's NO FUN to 
grow up with.  As for my cousin and her boyfriend, they are definitely 
the worst-case scenario.  I won't get into here, but I won't wish their 
relationship on *anybody*.

As for Ginny and Harry -- don't even get me started.  Something about 
Ginny -- I just can't stand the girl.  I once wrote a very angry, very 
long post in which I compared her to a group of girls (actually, my 
friends) with whom I went to school with and very explicitly exclaimed 
my hatred of her and "everyone like her."  *blushes* Yeah, it was 
horrible -- I still can't figure out how it ever got through the list 
elves (I was on moderated status at that time).  Anyway, more recently 
I've been less . . . er, irrationally rageful towards the girl, but I 
still feel she's badly developed, fangirlish, possibly evil, etc.

<SNIP>

> And I'll comment on Potioncat's post by saying, I agree, I don't
> think there will be ridiculous love triangles, which is what would
> happen if Harry suddenly fancied Hermione (beside the fact, Harry
> suddenly showing interest, after knowing and interacting with her
> for so long, wouldn't make sense - another defense for the H/G
> shippers is that Harry is just beginning to know her).

But it *does* 'make sense'.  Best friends fall in love all the time 
(*especially* in fiction, but also in real life as well).  As for Harry 
and Ginny . . . how would the hero suddenly noticing the girlish 
virtues of his best bud's kid sister (who's now suspiciously "over 
him") be any less cliched than the hero falling for his best female 
friend?  The problem is, every story that one can think of has already 
been told a million times before, and when it comes to romance stories, 
the number is more like a *hundred* million.  Really, there is v. 
little JKR could do (romance-wise) that couldn't be attacked as 
cliched, unrealistic, etc.

> JKR isn't
> going to turn this into some kind of stupid soap opera, if she did,
> I would lose all faith in her.  Another reason I detest the
> Snape/Lily theories, or the Lily/LV theories.  It isn't her style,
> and I don't think she is going to randomly change the character's
> proclivities and preinclinations, so that ships such as
> Harry/Hermione will make sense.  We've only got two books to go.  If
> Hermione is that girl that kisses Harry, alluding to JKR's latest
> interview, Ron would be very hurt.  It just isn't something I even
> remotely see actually happening.

I hardly think the more complex, plot-driving Snape/Lily theories are 
frivolous or soapy.  I may not agree with them, but they add 
interesting twists on the characters and *do* seem to easily explain a 
lot of things.  I totally understand the urge to feel angry about a 
theory that you think is ridiculous (for instance, I'm sorry guys, but 
the whole Ron-is-Dumbledore thing? *sigh*), but you really can't judge 
them against the story *you* think JKR is writing.  It's not fair *or* 
reasonable.  I know this because the list elves told me when *I* did 
it.  *sheepish grin* Yes, I am a blazing hypocrite.  Sorry.

<SNIP>

> ... Arthur and Molly, who dated in school as well.  And Ron and
> Hermione if like any other couple, are very similar to his parents.

See, that is *exactly* what I don't want, for either of them.  You know 
why?  Because it leaves Hermione browbeating Ron until he just ignores 
her.  Molly basically treats Arthur like a seventh son.  I don't know 
about you, but I can't ever remember seeing them be affectionate 
towards each other (I'm certainly not saying that they never *are*, 
off-page, but *still*).  In general, their interactions are greatly her 
*scolding* him (remind you of anyone? *cough* R/H *cough*).  Maybe JKR 
*does* think this is what a marriage should be like.  Personally, I 
can't think of anything more tiring and depressing than parenting a 
spouse my entire life -- unless it's being treated like a wayward child 
by the woman who's supposed to be my partner and lover.

> I don't know if JKR will let us know if the characters remain
> together, unless she gives us an epilogue, but I have a feeling
> she'll leave us with some idea of permanence, otherwise that would
> be leaving a loose end.

Just FYI, I'm almost sure she has said in an interview somewhere that 
there *will* be an epilogue.

> ~ Hitomi, who will be the R/H defender among the H/H shippers,
> because she's noticed all the H/H are very adament, as if they have
> something to defend, while many R/H shippers don't even bother,
> because it just seems so... well, why bother?

Many R/H SHIPpers don't even bother?  Have you met Pippin?  Trust me, 
from the H/H side of things, it feels just the opposite -- like *we're* 
the voiceless one in a sea of adamant R/Hers.  I guess it's just human 
nature to feel set upon? *shrugs*

Laura (who always writes far, far more than she intends to.)

"God gave rock n' roll to you."