Snape and the Order

[elfundeb2]

No: HPFGUIDX 94004

I wrote:

> > I think Dumbledore's testimony came in a closed, grand jury-type 
> > hearing, not before the Wizengamot (or Wizard's Council, as it 
is 
> > called in GoF), since nobody knows Snape was a DE, while 
everyone, 
> > even Ron, seems to know how Lucius Malfoy escaped justice.  
 
Carol responded:

> Yes, but over 200 witches and wizards were present for Karkaroff's
> testimony against his fellow DEs, including Snape.
  
I'd forgotten that Karkaroff's Pensieve hearing was so well 
attended.  However, Karkaroff's hearing was also in the nature of an 
evidence gathering mission; it certainly wasn't Karkaroff's trial, 
and Rita Skeeter wasn't there like she was at Bagman's trial, so I'm 
sticking by my theory that it wasn't public.

We know that there are magical ways of keeping witnesses quiet.  
There are Memory Charms, of course, but one can also use jinxes like 
the one Hermione used for the DA.  I think it likely that the 
council investigating the DE crimes were bound to secrecy (as are 
grand juries) by some kind of charm, as it doesn't seem to have been 
widely known that Snape was a DE.  Admittedly, though, I don't have 
any hard evidence for this, only a reasonable inference from the 
sketchy evidence before us.

But you do have a point about the timing.  I had always believed the 
council was not convened to round up and punish the DEs until 
*after* Voldemort's fall, but suspicion might have focused on Snape 
after the deaths of his pals Rosier and Wilkes, and we know that 
Crouch was busy using any methods at his disposal against the DEs.  

Debbie:
> > I think canon strongly implies that Snape did not begin teaching 
at 
> > Hogwarts until *after* the events at Godric's Hollow.
> 
> Carol:
> Can you provide your canon for this? IIRC, all we have is Snape's
> statement that he's been teaching at Hogwarts for fourteen years.
> Unlike McGonagall, who says "thirty years this December," he does 
not
> supply a month, suggesting (to me, at least) that he began 
teaching at
> the usual beginning of term, September first.
> 
No, I don't have solid evidence, just the inference based on Sirius' 
surprise on discovering that Snape was teaching.  My thinking is 
that because Sirius was a member of the Order, and Dumbledore was 
its head, surely word would have filtered back to him that his 
Hogwarts enemy had been hired by Dumbledore as a teacher. 

I do think that your timeline can only work if Snape is a double 
agent (a theory I like, as it explains why even in the graveyard 
Voldemort still doesn't seem sure where Snape's loyalties lie).  He 
couldn't have taken a post at Hogwarts and not have committed to spy 
for Voldemort at the same time.  What I haven't figured out is what 
information he could have passed to Voldemort to avoid suspicion 
that would not have been harmful to the Order.

Carol:
> I guess you don't think
> that Snape had to be at Hogwarts to be unaware that Pettigrew 
rather
> than Sirius was the spy/Secret Keeper. (I've argued elsewhere that
> Bellatrix was probably the only DE who knew and later informed the 
DEs
> alreay in Azkaban.) But you seem to agree that Snape didn't know, 
and
> therefore that he really believed Sirius was a murderer until the 
end
> of PoA, just as DD and the Weasleys and everyone else did. (Let me
> know if I'm misinterpreting you here.)

No, you've interpreted me correctly.  I think Pettigrew's treachery 
was a surprise to nearly everyone and Snape wouldn't have known 
regardless of whether he was at Hogwarts or at Voldemort's elbow.

> Debbie:
> > I think it more likely that Snape came to Dumbledore a couple of 
> > weeks before the attacks. We learn in PoA (don't have the book 
handy 
> > or I'd quote) that the charm was put in place because one of 
> > Dumbledore's spies tipped him off that Voldemort was after the 
> > Potters, and that the attack occurred approximately one week 
after 
> > the charm was performed.   

Carol:
> My only problem with this scenario is that it doesn't allow much 
time
> for Snape to be a spy "at great personal risk" before he becomes a
> teacher. 

In my mind, whatever secret Snape brought Dumbledore -- even if he 
only did it once -- put him at great personal risk because of the 
possibility Voldemort would discover that the information had been 
passed.  

> And you can't just create a teaching position out of thin
> air. There had to be at least one vacancy, either Potions or DADA 
or
> both. Maybe the Potions teacher became the DADA teacher so Snape 
could
> have the position. But I think he must have applied before the
> beginning of the term, knowing that there was a vacancy, rather 
than
> somehow being giving a teaching position well into the term 
because he
> was in need of a safe haven.

This is a harder argument to rebut.  There's always the possibility 
that Dumbledore kept Snape on hand doing something else (hey, maybe 
he was Filch's assistant and that's why he had Filch tend his leg in 
PS/SS <g>), but I'm beginning to warm to the idea that he brought 
Dumbledore his information about the Potters at his job interview in 
August, and that it took nearly two months to work out the Secret 
Keeper plan.  Another advantage of your version of events is that 
Snape taking refuge at Hogwarts only *after* Godric's Hollow might 
look suspicious to the remaining DEs, whereas if Snape was already 
teaching at Hogwarts before Godric's Hollow staying there would seem 
quite natural.

> Alternatively, and I have no canon whatever to back this up, but 
it's
> another possibility that has occurred to me: Maybe LV arranged the
> death of the DADA teacher (having Malfoy or someone AK him over the
> summer holiday) specifically to make that position available to 
Snape,
> who naturally would jump at the chance to be safely at Hogwarts 
with
> DD, away from the Muggle-baiting and other disreputable activities 
of
> the Death Eaters. He would, of course, pretend to be spying for LV 
but
> really be working for DD, just as in the first scenario. In both
> cases, Snape would be given the Potions position instead of the 
DADA
> position he applied for, with the DADA position presumably going to
> the old Potions teacher.

I like to think that Snape chose to leave the DEs of his own accord 
and not because Voldemort created an opportunity for him, and I 
don't much like the idea that Snape was already working for 
Dumbledore when he became a double agent.  Though I'm a fan of the 
double agent theory, I like to think that Snape proposed it to 
Voldemort (which goes very nicely with the theory that he used a job 
opening at Hogwarts both as a way to approach Dumbledore and as a 
way to explain it to Voldemort) and not that Voldemort sent him 
there.  

However, while I don't buy the theory that Voldemort had one of his 
hit men do away with the old DADA teacher, I think this theory 
should earn Carol her own FEATHERBOAS (Foaming Enthusiast of Ambush, 
Torture, and Hostility, Embracing Really Bloodthirsty Operations and 
Savagery)* and will therefore lend her one of mine.

> Carol:
> Everyone
> seems to take "lap dog" to mean "errand boy," but it actually 
means "a
> small pet dog" or "pampered pet." Picture a rich old woman with her
> pampered miniature poodle in her lap. So, yes, it's an insult to 
both
> Lucius and Severus, but it seems to me to apply to a time when they
> were boys (five or six years apart) and Severus was sort of 
a "pet" to
> the older Lucius, who IMO found him precocius and amusing.

This is almost precisely the image this phrase conjured up in my 
mind, except that in my view the pets' purpose is to do the master's 
(or mistress) bidding.  They got to sit on the mistress' lap to keep 
the mistress warm and provide unconditional love.  And so it's 
apropos for Sirius to taunt Snape for having to feign unconditional 
devotion to Malfoy (and, by extension, Malfoy's own master -- and 
Lucius certainly acts like Voldemort's lapdog).

> Carol, who can't comprehend posting rarely on Snape!

This is because most Snape threads move at the speed of light, and 
by the time I catch up it's all been said.

Debbie
who likes Snape but is really a Lupin fan (both are brilliantly 
flawed characters) and once posted here that she'd like to invite 
both of them over for drinks and conversation (but not at the same 
time)

*For a list of acronyms coined by HPFGU members, see Inish Alley at 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?
method=reportRows&tbl=13