[HPforGrownups] Re: Lupin's resentment : An inside to Snape's resentment

[Silverthorne]

No: HPFGUIDX 94142

{Alla}

I am puzzled. I honestly am.

I think I mentioned to you once that our attitudes to the literary
characters do not necessarily or not at all reflect the way we would treat
RL people with similar qualities (although if my child would ever have a
teacher like Snape, I would not promise a very nice treatment of such
teacher. :o))


{Silverthorne}

Yes you did, and if you cannot recognize that Kneasy and I are having a good
natured kabbitz with each other, that honestly has very little 'serious'
bite to it then I suspect you're taking yourself and your view a bit too
seriously when you read what I (or he) have to say. I am well aware that
these are literary characters, not real (and therefor it puzzles *me* when
you seem to defend Harry as if he were a real child and not the
'stereotyped' young hero that he is). Kneasy takes the 'evil Snape' stance
and does it well--but I seriously doubt he is the mean old codger he appears
to be on list (In other words, I am teasing him, as I do off list on the few
times we have spoken). A few private emails proves him to be intelligent and
very tolerant, in spite of his 'old codger from hell' personna on the board.
So...if the snipped quote you used is your argument for me 'taking it too
far and assuming that is the way he really is', then you might want to
consider that 'what you see' is not necassarily 'what you get' (The very
accusation you have thrown at me twice now).


{Alla}

It is stating the obvious, but the characters are not fellow human beings.
:o) If I want to be less forgiving to them, I can. If I want to like one
more than another simply because my heart tells me so, I can, even if those
two definitely share alot of negative traits.


{Silverthorne}
And yet I cannot? Alla, you seem to think that I'm directing all of this at
*you* specifically. I am not. I really really wish you would understand
that. If my remark about the 'let the fight begin' at the beginning  of my
first post gave you that impression, than I apologize. I was responding with
the good natured assumption that we both knew not to take this
seriously--just as a fun disagreement about our favorite characters since we
both know we're not likely to agree on most points.

Some people defend Snape, some Sirius, some Harry, some defend all or none
at all. I take Snape's side because until recently he was the most
'maligned' when it comes to who is right, wrong, or indifferent. I never
said you could NOT have your opinions--I only stated that I wished people
would give the same regards and respectful examination to all the
characters--use the same measuring stick and see beyond the surface of
things (something which is further colored by Harry-as-the-narrator). They
are what they are--what JKR wants them to be...and although some are less
'savory' then others at first glance, they are all still on the same side,
and they all have equally valid and invalid reasons for their behaivior.
Remember, one of the big themes is *choices*--why, how, and how it affects
all the characters. The other theme that comes up often is "All is not
necassarily as it seems". I apply *both* factors to all the characters as I
read--and my opinions of them change accordingly as I do so.

Just as 'child abuse' seems to set you off when you read the books, people
who are hypocritical in their treament of others sets me off. Snape may be
cruel, but he's consistant. Sirius, on the other hand, chooses his targets,
not necassarily on sound fact as to thier alignment, but rather in reaction
to his own personal likes and dislikes (which are not always dead on). Once
that became appearent, I lost respect for him. As a representative of the
'postive' in people, he skewed that all to hell in my view as soon as he
went after another kid for the simple reason that he was bored, and it made
it worse when he allowed himself to maintain that stance far into his adult
life. He could have chosen any number of other ways to deal with Snape in
school--they all could have, but they didn't. He could have let it go later
in life, but he didn't. As the 'positive' one of the Severus/Snape pair, he
should have, even if Snape couldn't. That is, in my opinion (which may not
match yours, and I know that), what a 'good guy' does, after all is said and
done. And perhaps he would have eventually if he hadn't died at the MoM.
Until then though, I am constantly left with the thought of "For god's sake,
Sirius. You're on the same side and grown up now. Let it rest." But he
couldn''t, and that does indeed color my opinion of him.


{Alla}
Packaging is more attractive? How did JKR called Harry in one of her
interviews? An "old soul". If this is what you mean by attractive packaging,
then yes, definitely he is my favourite due to  that.


{Silverthorne}
*Sigh* That's FINE, Alla, really it is. But at least let other people have
thier preferences in regards to characters and how they see them without
getting freaked out about it. Harry might be an 'old soul', but right now
he's acting as young as his current 15 years suggests he is. That doesn't
mean he won't improve as the final two books play out, but right now, he is
acting far less like  the 'Old Soul' Rowling says he is, and more like any
hurt, sulking and self righteous 15 year old does. By the same token, that
doesn't mean that *I* don't like him, just that, as in Sirius's case, I feel
he needs to adjust his view a little. As a good guy (child or not), it is
what will define him...and if he cannot get out of that funk, then he really
is no better then the people he hates and judges.

 As for attractive packaging--I was referring to what most people see--the
surface of things. In regards to Snape, that's all we have since Harry, as
narrator, does not try too terribly hard to see past that. It's normal, but
it is unfair, especially for a thinking audience to buy into. And again,
it's one of the themes that Rowling hints at--never assume that what you see
is really what you're getting. But, as I pointed out, since Snape is, on the
surface, a very unlikable personage, with appearently few redeemable
qualities (bad packaging), people will bash him long before they'll bash
Harry, or Sirius, or Lupin, or any of the other characters.


{Alla}

I used to believe that there are more to him than shows the eye. I was
intrigued by him since book 1.Here I thought - a grumpy teacher, who had a
sense of honor to save
the child of his school enemy.My heart went out to him and Sirius in PoA.I
cheered when Snape showed his Dark Mark to Fudge in GoF and for the first
time actually supported Harry. Here I thought - change of attitude is coming
for him.Yeah, right. I don't know when I  will be able tof orgive Snape
stopping Occlumency, unless Dumbledore knew about it.Actually, no. He was
entitled to his rage, he really was, but I expected him to use his bullying
skills for a good purpose for once and make Harry to come back.


{Silverthorne}
There's one problem with that, Alla. Harry would not have cooperated. He did
not the first time, and spent more time being angry at Snape than practicing
his lessons. He dwelled on it so badly that it completely undermined the few
efforts at occumancy he did attempt. Not to mention Snape's word just isn't
worth a damn to Harry, even before the whole Sirius thing. Therefore, it is
doubtful Harry would be willing for a second time around taking lessons with
Snape either (especially since he's convinced that everything bad that
happened in book 5 is all Snape's fault after all). And that *is* a flaw of
Harry's--once he's condemned, it *is* hard for him to forgive. Again,
normal, *human*, but it does make your conditional scenario a bit
impossible. And no, Snape did not make a huge, obvious, flowery change of
heart. But he's no more capable of turning on an emotional dime than Harry
is. If either change, it will happen over time, and with a lot of work
involved on *both* sides. And it will be up to Rowling at any rate as to
whether it will happen at all.

Still, small change is still better then nothing. And Snape *has* changed.
If he hadn't, I would be right along with Harry at the end of book 5 in
thinking Snape was nothing more than an irredeemable git. I could relist the
changes for you, but I think you know the litany by now, if not from me,
then other list members.

Harry has also changed, in both good *and* bad ways. Both will change more
as the story goes on, and I'm betting it will postive for both of them.


{Alla}
What did Harry feel after pensieve scene? compassion for Snape. He did not
give the boy a  chance to apologise.


{Silverthorne}
Okay, Fair enough...

Now, divorce yourself from it being *Snape's* memories that Harry mucked
around in. What if they had been yours? Think about it. I know he's a
fictional character, but seriously put yourself in Snape's shoes in this
scenario for a moment before you decide Snape's reaction was totally wrong
(and let's agree to lave out the 'but he could have fixed it later arguement
as well. Let's stay in the moment for now).

Harry is a young man who *should* know better than to go and do the
equivilent of read your diary. If it had been Hermione's, or Ron's, or even
Luna's, he would have refrained from doing it...and yet, here he is doing it
to *your* diary. Worse yet, he's snuck in while your back is turned to do
it, even though you and he both know he's on the honor system *not* to read
it while you go do whatever it was you went to do. Even worse, he's found
some of the worst moments in your life and is riffling through them
thoughtlessly (Harry is more interested in following his father around then
in realizing that he's messing with something personal and not meant for him
to see). You would not be mad at that point? You wouldn't want him to put
that diary down immediately and get out, even if only for a moment so you
can collect your thoughts at least, before you *really* go off half cocked
at the boy? Granted, I'll assume that you would not throw a jar of
cockroches (or have an equivically violent reaction)  at him as he exits the
room...you might even have the strength of will to call him back immediately
to work it out--but then, that would be you. Snape, due to his own
experiences, does not quite have that self control.

You as yourself would still be angry, though. And that was where Snape was.
He wasn't interested in an apology at that point, he wasn't thinking of "I
need to calmly impress on the boy that what he did was wrong, and at his age
he should know better"--what he was aware of was that someone had violated
his privacy. Someone who *should* know better, even though the two of them
don't get along. And that is where most people *would* have been if Harry
had done that to them. People that *don't* have that knee jerk reaction to
someone completely and desrespectfully going through thier things are rare
and far between. Dumbledore is capable of keeping his cool, maybe. Lupin,
perhaps. A sanctified saint, yes. Snape is none of these. Harry, if the
scene were reversed, would have faired no better in his reaction towards
Snape either, at least not at this point in his emotional development. And
that is really my main point when I compare Snape to Harry, or Sirius...if
the roles were reversed, the scene would have played about the same, with
few if any variations. And yet who gets most of the blame laid at his feet?
As the one whose things were rifled through, Snape is 'wrong' for having a
perfectly natural angry reaction. If he had been the one reading the diary,
he would have been the one at fault for reading it and getting Harry upset.
Thing is though, *both* of them, no matter who was in which role, are
equally at fault. So both should be equally taken to task for thier role, or
equally 'forgiven' for thier trangression.

Put yourself in Snape's shoes, even if you can't quite fathom (or approve
of) his extreme reactions. It's what we do for Harry when we feel sad for
him, or are glad he succeeded, or even when Snape is picking on him and we
all think 'Leave him alone, you obnoxious git'. It should be what we do for
*all* of the characters before we start taking sides. Again, it's one of the
things Rowling re-enforces, and it's one of the things I do my damndest to
remember when I read the series. I just ask that others do the same. ^^


{Alla}
You never know, what book 6 brings.

{Silverthorne}
No, we don't. But that won't keep me from having faith that Snape will
redeem himself, that he deserves at least a little credit for leaving the
DE, and that there's more to him than 'One Nasty Person'. He is a human
being...he has feelings, and he makes mistakes--ones that are more glaring
because he certianly doesn't have a handle on the 'proper' way to deal with
certain issues. But I do maintain that he is a good guy, is as capable of
love as much as he is capable of hate, and that his emotional drive is more
'positive' than it seems. I also believe he hides it for two reasons--1) He
is a spy and MUST maintain his disagreeable nature for appearence's sake and
2) He hides the postive in order to keep himself protected, since in his
youth, that was the part most suppressed and trampled upon both by his
situation and by other people around him. I can respect that, having been
severly 'trampled upon' as a youngster myself. Others may not, and I respect
that too...but then, that's why I keep pointing it out--someone has to be
the voice for what most folks can't see and don't understand. That's what
makes it a discussion board.

As for Harry...I believe he will get over the hurts he suffered in book
five, and he will be a fine young man...but in order to do that, he will
have to take more responsibilty for his own actions and understand the
consequences thereof. No more misplacing the 'blame' that is rightfully
his--no more assuming that it is the grownups' responsibility to clean up
after him. He is old enough (and getting older with each book)  to
understand and apply that concept to himself. Most children in fact are
expected to start applying that concept at about the age Harry first arrived
at Hogwarts. It's about responsibility, and maturity. Growing Up. And the
sooner a child learns those basic concepts, the better off they are as they
get older. The longer it takes for Harry to realize those concepts, the
harder it will be for him to deal with what life has to throw at him. Again,
it's a RL concept applied to a fictional character, but it holds true both
in real as well as in fictional life--or else you end up with a
two-dimensional character that learns very little beyond how to defeat the
bad guy (which to me is pretty much a waste of a good character). Personal
opinion, of course, but I really do believe it. Just as I really believe
Harry *will* learn it.

Anyway, Alla, I just hope you can understand my point here. It's not that I
am picking on Harry/Sirius per se, or you personally, or anyone's opinions.
We all have them--but, as I have said before, when we analyze the characters
in Rowling's works, I feel we need to look at all of them with an equal eye
towards who they are, what has shaped them, and why they act the way they
do. Thus far, other then Voldemort (that we know of at any rate), *all* of
the characters have very valid reasons for being as they are. We as the
audience may not understand all those reasons, since we have a limited range
of vision as it were--but really, to keep true to Rowling's themes, we
really need to *Look* at everything before we get into the 'who is right and
who is wrong' decisions. And one of the obvious themes is how the characters
reflect each other in nature and choices. And again, they all have a 'valid'
reason for their stances (even if some of their actions and reactions are
less than sterling in our own imperfect and opinionated eyes.).

It's a good lesson and good practice for how to treat people in real life,
fictional work or not...^^

Anyway, I hope you have a good evening and a good weekend. Take care

Anne